Tom Holland (plus Kevin Feige & Amy Pascal)

It's been nearly a decade for Tom Holland as Spider-Man and its time for a look back on Happy Sad Confused. From his auditions to his Infinity War death to his plan for the future, Josh and Tom talk about it all. Plus a chat with SPIDER-MAN: BRAND NEW executive producers Kevin Feige and Amy Pascal. SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! Rula -- Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.rula.com/happy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ #rulapod Quince -- Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Quince.com/HAPPYSAD ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for free shipping and 365-day returns. Limited Time Offer–Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code happy15 at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://huel.com/happy15.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ New Customers Only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:29Josh Horowitz?

  Do you ever think of like the multiverse reality where you didn't get Spider-Man? And Timothy Chalamet is swinging around Spider-Man?

• 0:38Speaker 02

  I think he would make a great Spider-Man. I think he would really bring a lot of emotion. I think he would be a more brooding version of the character, which might be kind of interesting.

• 0:48Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 0:49Speaker 02

  And you know, maybe I got Dune.

• 0:51Josh Horowitz?

  I was gonna say.

• 0:51Speaker 02

  And Dune would be this kind of like blumbering idiot, like running through the sand. That'd be kind of fun, though.

• 0:57Josh Horowitz?

  I don't think that would be your take.

• 1:00Speaker 03

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins.

• 1:08Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Today, it is a Spider-Man Brand New Day spectacular. Tom Holland is on the podcast. Plus, stick around later. We have a special chat with Kevin Feige and Amy Pascal. Hey guys, thanks as always for checking out the podcast. Remember to hit that subscribe button if you haven't already on YouTube, on Spotify, whatever platform you're using. I appreciate you guys. Big one today for the biggest movie. I think it could be the biggest movie of the year. I mean, with apologies to Avengers: Doomsday and Dune Part III. I don't know. Spider-Man: Brand New Day is gonna give them a run for their money because the love of this franchise, the love of Tom Holland in this role is palpable.

• 1:53Josh Horowitz?

  It is strong, and this movie delivers. I am so thrilled to say that Tom Holland is on the podcast for the very first time. Later on, as I said, we do have a little mini kind of bonus conversation with executive producers Kevin Feige and Amy Pascal. So let me explain a little bit first about both of these conversations, a little context. But before I do that, let me remind you guys, check out our Patreon, patreon.com/happy-sad-confused. You get early access, you get access to our live events, bonus content, merch, all sorts of fun stuff. Check it out, patreon.com/happy-sad-confused. If you like what I do, support us over there. Okay, so context. Tom Holland. This conversation was recorded before I saw the movie.

• 2:36Josh Horowitz?

  This was in fact, recorded quite a while ago, a month or two ago at least. He was in New York, schedules lined up, and who's I to say no to Tom Holland? Of course, I've wanted Tom on the podcast forever. Been talking to him a long time for MTV and for other things. But finally to have the deep dive with him was fantastic. And in a way, it's okay for my purposes that I hadn't seen the movie because it gave us an opportunity to dive into his, particularly his Spider-Man history. So we talk about the early days of joining Spider-Man, the early pressures, his growing contributions through the years. That moment in time when Spider-Man was seen to be leaving the MCU.

• 3:20Josh Horowitz?

  The rumors about Spider-Man joining the other Sony films. His role in Infinity War, his death scene. So many things we got to touch on that I probably wouldn't have had time or if I was just concentrating on the new film. So yes, there are teases on the new film, but this is mostly kind of a look back at his Spider-Man life. There's a little bit of Odyssey in there too. And again, just for context, this was before The Odyssey was out, before I'd seen The Odyssey, before anybody had seen The Odyssey. So that's why we're talking about it as if it hasn't happened yet, because it hasn't happened yet. Okay, so there's the context for Tom. Context for Kevin Feige and Amy Pascal. This is a, just a mini kind of bonus thing that we're gonna put at the very end of the episode. 10 minute interview, mostly about Spider-Man: Brand New Day.

• 4:03Josh Horowitz?

  Again, I hadn't seen the film yet, so it's, you know, given that context, that's what the conversation is. Also, there is some conversation about things like Ghost Rider and X-Men. This of course, happened before Comic-Con. As you guys probably know by now, Ghost Rider was officially announced with Ryan Gosling. I'm very much connected to that story. If you don't know, if you know, you know. So there's that. And yeah, so the newsy stuff with Kevin might feel, I don't think it feels old because we talked about Blade, which wasn't even brought up at Comic-Con and some other things. So anyway, just wanted to give you the context for that. That's why we're talking about Ryan Gosling as a potential Ghost Rider and not in fact, of course, the fact that he is now our Ghost Rider. So I think that's all.

• 4:48Josh Horowitz?

  We'll get to the main event because there's a lot of juicy stuff in this one. Stick around till the end. Kevin Feige, Amy Pascal, producers of Spider-Man: Brand New Day. But first up, a deep dive with Spider-Man himself. A long time coming, I'm so thrilled it happened. Here is me and Tom Holland. Enjoy. Mr. Tom Holland.

• 5:08Speaker 02

  Nice to see you, Josh.

• 5:08Josh Horowitz?

  It's good to see you, man. I'm doing well, I'm doing very well. Welcome to Happy, Sad, Confused. We've talked many times over the years. You've never done the official pod, so this is a big moment for me.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  I will say, I have a really poignant memory of you.

• 5:21Josh Horowitz?

  Oh no.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  When we met in Vegas.

• 5:23Josh Horowitz?

  Yes, that was the first time.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  And we did an interview, it was the first time. I was very nervous. And you really set the tone. And I think really helped me kind of start my public journey with the Spider-Man world in a really lovely way.

• 5:37Josh Horowitz?

  Tom.

• 5:37Speaker 02

  So I'm always excited to chat.

• 5:39Josh Horowitz?

  I'm gonna cry right at the beginning. I'm gonna make you cry by the end of this, Dan.

• 5:42Speaker 02

  That's what I do for a living, bro, so it ain't that difficult.

• 5:46Josh Horowitz?

  Congratulations in advance on the new film. I was just telling you, I haven't had the privilege, we're taking this a little bit in advance.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 5:51Josh Horowitz?

  Needless to say, you guys are keeping this under wraps.

• 5:53Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 5:54Josh Horowitz?

  I'm just gonna assume this is the greatest movie ever made, yes?

• 5:57Speaker 02

  You said it, not me.

• 5:58Josh Horowitz?

  And put it on the poster, Josh Howard.

• 5:59Speaker 02

  Exactly. Five stars, hasn't seen it yet, but.

• 6:03Josh Horowitz?

  It is, look, it's a big summer for you. The Odyssey, Spider-Man: Brand New Day. I mean, is it even a summer movie if you or Zendaya are not in it? Does it really count?

• 6:13Speaker 02

  Listen, man, I am still coming to terms with how exciting the summer is. I think being in The Odyssey as a young, like lover of cinema is one of, if not the coolest experience I've ever had. Seeing Chris work, seeing his crew work, getting to share the screen with Matt and Anne and John again, and you know, the rest of the amazing cast, was a dream come true.

• 6:40Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  Like it was out of this world. And the movie absolutely sings, dude. Like the movie is unlike anything I have ever seen before.

• 6:48Josh Horowitz?

  You're saying Christopher Nolan made a really good movie?

• 6:50Speaker 02

  He made a pretty good movie, bro. He made a pretty good movie.

• 6:54Josh Horowitz?

  Finally, we were rooting for him.

• 6:55Speaker 02

  It's about time. It's about time. No, the movie is, the movie is awesome. The movie is absolutely like.

• 7:01Josh Horowitz?

  I don't need to be hyped more, I'm ready.

• 7:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's so good, man. You're gonna love it, you're gonna love it.

• 7:06Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, so since, since we have the luxury of a little time here, and we have been talking for a number of years, I wanna kind of like take a macro view of like particularly the Spider-Man run. Because, I mean, you alluded to it, like I met you, I think you were probably maybe 20, 21 back in Vegas, CinemaCon, right? And I mean, I was guilty of this, I'm sure everybody was guilty of this. Like, it's always about like, are you feeling the pressure? The responsibility, right? When you get a role like that. I'm curious what those words mean to you now, at 30, versus what they meant to you at 20? Pressure, responsibility to this character?

• 7:41Speaker 02

  It's a really interesting question because I was talking about it this morning. I feel more pressure and more nerves releasing Spider-Man: Brand New Day than I did Spider-Man: Homecoming. And I think there's something about that kind of childlike naivety of what was happening to my life at 20. As opposed to finishing that third movie, sharing the screen with Toby and Andrew, being really kind of conflicted as to whether or not my time as Spider-Man had come to an end.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  Taking a leap of faith and diving into this new movie, falling in love with Destin, making a movie that I am so unbelievably proud of. And I think because I'm so proud of it, and Destin was so gracious and allowed me to be a part of the development process, and you know, I've been involved in this movie in a way that I haven't been before. I think a lot of those nerves are down to the fact that this movie feels like it's a bigger part of me somehow.

• 8:51Josh Horowitz?

  Right, you pushed your cards on the table and had more of a voice at the table.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:55Josh Horowitz?

  And I wanna get to that, because that evolved over the years, I know, for you. But it is funny, because like you were saying, like, look, you weren't like, you were an adult, but you were a young adult when you got this. And like, there's only so much the brain can wrap itself around when you are cast in that role. You can intellectually know, like, this is a big deal.

• 9:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:12Josh Horowitz?

  Like, this is James Bond, Batman, this is one of those. But then it's another thing to actually walk in those shoes. I mean, my sense about you, and I'm gonna pay you a compliment, is like over the years, you've handled it kind of as well as you can for something like this, something that no human being really has the capacity to handle.

• 9:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 9:31Josh Horowitz?

  When you look at kind of the 10-year journey, do you look at it as like kind of a straight line of kind of like learning? Or were there ups and downs in the road of kind of like, I'm buying into my own hype at a certain point, or I'm prioritizing the wrong things? Or give me a little sense of like that?

• 9:46Speaker 02

  I think that all of those things are true. But if they weren't true, then you wouldn't be like a well-rounded.

• 9:52Josh Horowitz?

  A human being.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  Person, right? You wouldn't be a human being. You have moments where, like golf is, this, everything goes back to golf.

• 9:58Josh Horowitz?

  I know.

• 9:59Speaker 02

  Golf is a perfect analogy. There are days where you're like, I could be a pro golfer. Like, why don't I pursue golf? And then there are days when you're like, I don't think I'll ever play golf ever again because I suck.

• 10:10Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  And I think life is like that, you know? There are highs and lows, it's about appreciating them both for the different ways in which they affect your life and the ways you learn from them. I've always been like a big, I've always really believed in that you learn more from your failures than you do your successes.

• 10:27Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  You know? And I've loved every minute of it, to be honest. I feel still as lucky today as I was when I was 18 and I got the job. I think something that I've really loved about the process is that playing this character has never felt like a job.

• 10:43Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  It has always felt like a gift. And I love the people that I get to make it with, the guys at Sony, the guys at Marvel, the incredible casts that I get to share the screen with. It has just been a positive experience in every way. So I'm feeling pretty blessed and feeling pretty lucky and I am super proud of the film.

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• 12:32Josh Horowitz?

  So, back to the beginning. You've talked about the famous six-month-long audition process.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  Right, right, yeah.

• 12:38Josh Horowitz?

  I don't know if you'll rehash all of that, but what I'm curious about, like when you look back at that time, that long process of getting the role, it seems like, looking back and hearing you talk about it way back when, there was something in you that thought you were the right guy for this, that you were kind of destined for this. Even like, as long as it was going, it was gonna work out. Is that safe to say? And if that's true, like, where do you think that came from?

• 12:59Speaker 02

  I don't know if it was a sense that I was the guy for the job, but more the sense that if I got it, I would do a really good job.

• 13:10Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 13:11Speaker 02

  I don't know if I would maybe do the best job of everyone that was going up for it.

• 13:15Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 13:16Speaker 02

  But I knew that, given the opportunity, I could really do something that was well within my wheelhouse. And I'd been a fan of Spider-Man since I was a kid. I'd grown up kind of cosplaying as Spider-Man. It was such a huge part of like, who I was as a person.

• 13:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  That it was less, it was less about a performance and more of a portrayal of myself, I guess. Just with an American accent.

• 13:43Speaker 02

  But I've always been confident. I've always kind of been confident in my own ability.

• 13:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  And, you know, I had a really healthy, a really exciting experience the other day. Like, I went for my first dance class to prep for Fred Astaire.

• 13:56Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, for Fred Astaire.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  And I was equally as excited as I was terrified, which was, the excitement came from, "Oh my god, I can totally do this." But then the fear was, "But I have to climb a mountain to do it." But it was like, that perfect level of fear and excitement kind of meeting in the middle.

• 14:13Josh Horowitz?

  I know I have it within me. I can learn it.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:16Josh Horowitz?

  But it's gonna take work.

• 14:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like, I know I can do this, but in order to do this, I'm gonna have to work harder than I've ever worked before.

• 14:22Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 14:23Speaker 02

  And if I'm willing to do that, then I'll achieve what I want to achieve.

• 14:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 14:26Speaker 02

  So it's, it's not blind faith.

• 14:29Josh Horowitz?

  Right. It's with the right, "I have the tools, and if I really put the work in..."

• 14:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:34Josh Horowitz?

  "I can do it."

• 14:35Speaker 02

  Exactly, that's what it is, yeah.

• 14:36Josh Horowitz?

  Do you ever think of like, the multiverse reality where you didn't get Spider-Man and Timothy Chalamet is flinging around Spider-Man?

• 14:43Speaker 02

  I think he would make a great Spider-Man. I think he would really bring a lot of emotion. I think he would be a more brooding version of the character, which might be kind of interesting.

• 14:55Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 14:56Speaker 02

  And, you know, maybe I got Doon.

• 14:57Josh Horowitz?

  I was gonna say.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  And Doon would be this kind of like, blumbering idiot, like, running through the sand. That'd be kind of fun, though.

• 15:04Josh Horowitz?

  I don't think that would be your take.

• 15:08Josh Horowitz?

  There, I don't think they've ever released like, I mean, you obviously got the part before Jacob and Zendaya got, you screen tested with them, as far as I know, right?

• 15:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:16Josh Horowitz?

  Like, they were reading opposite you. They've never released that footage. Have you seen the footage of like, I mean, that's probably like, your first meeting with both of them is on, literally on a camera somewhere, on tape somewhere.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, we've all seen it. We've all sat down and watched it and laughed about it and, you know, it's really funny. In this movie in particular, there are flashbacks to previous movies to try and help audiences understand like, where we're coming from in certain moments. And I remember even shooting the third movie, feeling like an adult and feeling like a kind of, a young man.

• 15:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 15:48Speaker 02

  And then when you see those flashbacks in comparison to the movie that we're making now...

• 15:52Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  We look like children.

• 15:54Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 15:55Speaker 02

  So when you go back to the audition tapes...

• 15:56Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  I mean, I was a child. I was, I was 17 years old when I was auditioning for these movies.

• 16:03Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 16:04Speaker 02

  So it is kind of crazy to think about how much of my life has been about Spider-Man.

• 16:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. No, you can mark different parts of your life.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:15Josh Horowitz?

  And obviously overlap with the personal life too now. I mean, it's just, it's everything. I mean, it's not everything, but it's a lot of your life, obviously.

• 16:20Speaker 02

  I mean, I would say it's damn near the majority.

• 16:23Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:25Josh Horowitz?

  Was the physicality part of like, what you felt like initially was like, in your bones, like, "I can bring something a little bit unique here." Like, "I'm good in my own body, I know what I can do." Like, Toby, Andrew, amazing, but like, I have like, some, I'm a little, of a different body type, I can do some other things.

• 16:42Speaker 02

  I guess just having a dance background...

• 16:44Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 16:45Speaker 02

  For a character where you completely cover his face, and you have to kind of tell the story through physicality.

• 16:53Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 16:54Speaker 02

  You know, I was really lucky to have the emoting eyes.

• 16:56Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  You know, the kind of Tony Stark eyes that can...

• 16:59Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  Kind of give the audience a sense of what's going on, but really, you can just do shocked or angry. That's kind of the limitation to the emotions the eyes can do.

• 17:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:10Speaker 02

  But yeah, I think, you know, when I was auditioning for the movie and thinking about how I would play the character, a lot of it was sort of standing in front of a mirror and...

• 17:18Josh Horowitz?

  Oh my god. That's the footage I want.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 17:21Josh Horowitz?

  Sort of like...

• 17:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, pretending to sort of be in fight scenes or in scenes and, I tried to do this thing in the first movie, which kind of ended up sticking, which was like, you know if you fall asleep on your arms?

• 17:32Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  And your arms go dead?

• 17:34Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 17:35Speaker 02

  This idea that when he's in the suit, he doesn't necessarily have control of his arms in scenes. So you'll notice, like, if I ever turn around really quickly, I kind of let my arms go a little bit loose.

• 17:45Josh Horowitz?

  Right, they're just kind of dead.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  And I, I just kind of thought that was like, a funny little thing, which ended up becoming a bit of a staple, I guess, for me. But physicality has always been step one...

• 17:59Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 18:00Speaker 02

  Of stepping into the shoes of Spider-Man.

• 18:03Josh Horowitz?

  We do, as an audience, sometimes worry about you doing the stunts.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:07Josh Horowitz?

  And I'm not alone. I want to show you, where's my camera? Like, so, one of my favorite interviews I did with your friends, Jacob and Zendaya, was them talking...

• 18:15Speaker 02

  You're talking about me being sick?

• 18:16Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I love it.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  That's great.

• 18:19Josh Horowitz?

  Let's just play it again, just for shits and giggles. Here we go.

• 18:22Speaker 06

  You know what I think about all the time that really scares me? Is like, when he wears that thing, like, the mask that you can't just take off? Yeah, you can't scuff it either. Because it's all like, one piece? Yeah. I get scared all the time, like, what if he's working so hard that he throws up? I mean, like... And then he can't, he chokes. He chokes, yeah. I think about it all the time, like, that's really scary.

• 18:42Josh Horowitz?

  You think about that all the time?

• 18:43Speaker 06

  I do. Because I look at him like, please, I hope he never gets sick, oh my god. But also, like, what is like, doing flips and stuff?

• 18:50Josh Horowitz?

  So was that a fear for you as well? Or was that just your friends being very kind and...

• 18:55Speaker 02

  It was definitely something that crossed my mind. I think that in reality, I knew that if that did happen, I could pull the eyes out, grab the eye tray, and I could just rip the mask off.

• 19:09Josh Horowitz?

  There's a ripcord, there's an emergency...

• 19:11Speaker 02

  It's not designed that way, but I'm pretty sure...

• 19:14Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  I could have done that. But now, in the new suit, having worked with Toby and Andrew...

• 19:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 19:21Speaker 02

  And seeing the amount of engineering that went into their comfortability, I have a zip at the back of my head which allows me to take the mask off to breathe.

• 19:32Josh Horowitz?

  This comes with Sin Yard. Imagine that, you can actually breathe.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  How good is that?

• 19:35Josh Horowitz?

  Do you have a favorite of the entire canon of Spider-Man, of the costumes? Like, the one that you wore or they wore? Like, what's your, what's the favorite?

• 19:43Speaker 02

  I love Andrew's Tasm II costume. A lot of our new suit is inspired by that. And, you know, we kind of broke the rules a little bit by justifying the fact that Peter had met those two guys in Spider-Man 3.

• 19:59Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 20:00Speaker 02

  That we kind of made this new suit as an amalgamation of the things that we loved from Toby suits and Andrew suits.

• 20:06Josh Horowitz?

  Nice.

• 20:07Speaker 02

  I love the black suit in Toby's movie. I think that's really cool. I think if we ever got to do a black suit in Spider-Man, I don't know how we would, I don't know how we would tackle that challenge, because they did it so well in the game.

• 20:22Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 20:23Speaker 02

  And I don't know how you make a suit that's similar to the one in the game without having a CG component.

• 20:30Josh Horowitz?

  Right, it feels like that's the place to obviously go, but you obviously want it to feel tactile.

• 20:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know how, I don't know how you would do that.

• 20:36Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, I'm sure, as you well know, among the thousand rumors that are always going around is like, that potentially we see you in the symbiote gods for Secret Wars.

• 20:45Speaker 02

  Okay. Well, I have, I have absolutely no idea...

• 20:53Josh Horowitz?

  You're not, you're not making eye contact, you just went away.

• 20:54Speaker 02

  I have, okay, I swear to you, Josh...

• 20:57Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 20:58Speaker 02

  That I have no idea what Secret Wars is about. And I think that that is by design, because Marvel know I'm going on this press tour, and that is their biggest asset, and I think it's really important that no one ruins it. So I think by design, I went on holiday with Joe Russo not a month ago.

• 21:17Josh Horowitz?

  And nothing.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  I don't know nothing.

• 21:19Josh Horowitz?

  Do you want to do the rest of the interview, holding up our hands like this?

• 21:22Speaker 02

  We should, like this, no? Yeah, I, truth be told, I know nothing about that movie.

• 21:27Josh Horowitz?

  All right. Do you think you've gotten a bad rap over the years? Has it been over Satan? And how much have you played into kind of like, that you're the leaker, the one that's, that just can't control themselves?

• 21:38Speaker 02

  There's part of me that loves it.

• 21:39Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 21:40Speaker 02

  I think my dad's a comedian.

• 21:42Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  So, having thick skin and growing up with people taking the mick out of you is like, part of our upbringing.

• 21:49Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 21:50Speaker 02

  You know, my love language, I think, is taking the piss out of me. I really love, I can't, I just, I love it.

• 21:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 21:58Speaker 02

  And I think it's been, I don't know, I think it's been really fun. This whole idea of me spoiling things, and I have spoiled things.

• 22:04Josh Horowitz?

  Right, there's a germ of truth, more than a germ of truth to it.

• 22:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not like it's completely out the blue.

• 22:08Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 22:09Speaker 02

  You know, but then again,

• 22:12Speaker 02

  there are times where we kind of maybe lent into it.

• 22:15Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 22:16Speaker 02

  To try and, you know, create some buzz on the internet.

• 22:19Josh Horowitz?

  That's not the worst thing in the world.

• 22:20Speaker 02

  But I am. Yeah, I am pretty loose-lipped, but it's only because I'm really excited. Like, I love these movies.

• 22:27Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 22:28Speaker 02

  I'm a fan first. For 10 years before I joined this amazing universe, I was first in line at the cinema.

• 22:33Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  So I feel like I'm a fan that kind of got into the trenches with them, you know?

• 22:38Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 22:38Speaker 02

  And sometimes when I do these interviews, I want to tell everyone what's going on because I'm.

• 22:43Josh Horowitz?

  You're excited.

• 22:43Speaker 02

  I'm a fan.

• 22:45Josh Horowitz?

  Let's jump to Infinity War. Mr. Stark, I don't feel so good. Was that ever, was that ever written on the page? Was that one of those where like you're workshopping different things in the moment, like?

• 22:54Speaker 02

  I feel like I, or I think maybe I gave myself a little too much credit in that moment.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  It definitely wasn't written as long as it was.

• 23:05Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 23:05Speaker 02

  On the page. And maybe it was just my insatiable need to milk that moment. I don't know.

• 23:16Speaker 02

  But I think the "I don't want to go" was maybe something that I improvised.

• 23:20Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 23:21Speaker 02

  Or if it wasn't that it was improvised, it was that I kept saying it over and over again.

• 23:25Josh Horowitz?

  I see.

• 23:26Speaker 02

  But truth be told, is that an acting exercise that I have done since I was a kid to find real emotion.

• 23:33Josh Horowitz?

  Repetition.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  Is to repeat a phrase, whether it's "I'm so sorry," or "I don't want to go," or "I love you," or something like that. It's just a really, really effective way of like bringing up emotions.

• 23:43Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  So I think that scene is an amalgamation of like some acting exercises, Downey improvising, myself improvising. And also just the brothers giving us the perfect floor to, to dance on.

• 23:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  You know, in those big moments.

• 23:57Josh Horowitz?

  It's so funny, like, obviously I've talked to all of you guys from these films and like, I just talked to Paul Bettany recently and he was talking about, you know, his death scene.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 24:05Josh Horowitz?

  Joe was like, can you guys come up with something? It's like, now? This? But sometime, I mean, that, that's also a beautiful thing. Like, yes, it's scary, but it's like, obviously they have something on the page, they have some ideas, but it's also, in these kind of movies, you don't think of it, of being able to have that freedom, which is kind of awesome, like.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think what is so good about Joe and Anne for these, these humongous movies is that they know that no one loves their character like the person that plays that character.

• 24:36Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 24:37Speaker 02

  You know, and, and everyone has an understanding of what would do just, what would be.

• 24:45Josh Horowitz?

  Right and appropriate for themselves.

• 24:47Speaker 02

  Right and appropriate for that character in that moment. And I think Joe and Anne are such great collaborators that they are not afraid to put you on the spot.

• 24:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  And say like, what do you think Peter would do in this moment?

• 24:58Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 24:58Speaker 02

  You know, like, we have our ideas and this is what we've sat around in the writer's room, but we want to hear what you think because you've been living, breathing this character for the last decade.

• 25:06Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 25:07Speaker 02

  Tell us what you think. And I think that that is why the movies feel so personal, even when they're so big.

• 25:14Josh Horowitz?

  Right, everybody's bringing their own passion.

• 25:15Speaker 02

  And people are bringing to the characters what they love about the characters. And I think that Joe and Anthony are some of the best at that.

• 25:23Josh Horowitz?

  Except for Anthony Mackie, who's just kind of phoning it in. He just shows up, it's like, where do I, what do I do?

• 25:28Speaker 02

  Mackie came and surprised me on, uh, on the movie. We were shooting in Peter's apartment. And I was doing this scene, and all of a sudden Captain America was like in my apartment. He just like walked into the set.

• 25:41Josh Horowitz?

  The latest one?

• 25:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, on Spider, because we were both filming at Pinewood. Avengers was across the way and Spider-Man: Brand New Day was on the east side or the west side of the property. And yeah, I was shooting this scene and then Mackie just walks in.

• 25:51Josh Horowitz?

  He just screams, "Cut the check!"

• 25:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:53Josh Horowitz?

  "Number one's here."

• 25:55Speaker 02

  But no, we had a good time. It's nice to catch up. He looks great in his costume. He looked really cool.

• 26:00Josh Horowitz?

  Kind to Anthony Mackie, despite all the things he said about you.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  I didn't mean for that to sound, like I said, it was such surprise.

• 26:07Josh Horowitz?

  Finally, he's got it into shape, he's okay.

• 26:09Speaker 02

  But it's about time.

• 26:13Josh Horowitz?

  2019 is kind of a, a down moment in the midst of a, of a great movie. There's a small period of time where you think Spider-Man is no longer going to be a part of the MCU.

• 26:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right.

• 26:23Josh Horowitz?

  About a month or so where it's like, we all thought it's over. What do you, like, put me in your head during that time period. Were you kind of like ready to check out? Like, this isn't what I want, this isn't what, I mean, how, how, how down were you about that prospect at the time?

• 26:43Speaker 02

  I think I was probably more confused than I was down.

• 26:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 26:48Speaker 02

  In my eyes, everything between the two studios was fantastic.

• 26:54Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 26:55Speaker 02

  First movie went really well. The, the borrowing of the character for Civil War seemed to be a big success. But that said, I love Tom Rothman.

• 27:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:08Speaker 02

  I love Amy Pascal, I love Rachel O'Connor. I still had a great sense of confidence that whatever we would do with that second movie would be great.

• 27:19Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:19Speaker 02

  And would be really fun. And it was made very aware to me that

• 27:25Speaker 02

  they weren't moving on from me. It was just that the relationship between like mum and dad had fallen apart a little bit.

• 27:32Josh Horowitz?

  Kind of literally, yeah.

• 27:33Speaker 02

  And I think, you know, both of the studios chatted with each other and figured it out and recognized that the character would service both.

• 27:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  Studios in a really good way. And I think that, you know, they, I don't know, I, I don't really know, but I just know that I always had confidence in the character and Amy and Tom and Rachel.

• 27:54Josh Horowitz?

  You talk about being, you know, protective of the character, having a voice. We kind of alluded to that, how it's kind of grown throughout the years. And part of that I would imagine is also, we're talking about the Sony side of things. Obviously, they were for a while trying to do all these spinoff movies.

• 28:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 28:06Josh Horowitz?

  Morbius, Kraven.

• 28:07Speaker 02

  Right.

• 28:07Josh Horowitz?

  Venom, obviously.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:09Josh Horowitz?

  Did you have to kind of like take stands about like whether you, it made sense or not to be involved? Because I would imagine for each of those movies, there's a point in time where they're like, we really want to use Spider-Man. And someone has to make the argument that it's not right or appropriate.

• 28:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, to be perfectly honest with you, I think that, you know, Rothman is a really smart guy. And I think that he was building this universe and they had this plan to kind of merge the worlds at some point. And I think that they just never found the right time to do so.

• 28:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 28:41Speaker 02

  I think it was on the cards.

• 28:42Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 28:43Speaker 02

  You know, and there were never any battles of like,

• 28:45Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 28:46Speaker 02

  "We want you to be in this movie and I don't want to be in this movie." That never happened.

• 28:49Josh Horowitz?

  It was just like, we'll get there, we just never got there.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that was the idea. It was like, one day this will happen. And like lots of things in the creative world, it just never came to fruition.

• 28:58Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  And I think that we were feeling great confidence in my franchise with Watson, with the Marvel guys and the MCU, that Tom and the guys at Sony just wanted us to continue on our path.

• 29:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 29:13Speaker 02

  And yeah, but there was never any times where I was being forced into a movie I didn't want to be in. And that, that never happened.

• 29:21Josh Horowitz?

  It is, I mean, I will say just from a fan perspective, speaking for many, it's like, probably the one thing we always wanted, obviously, was you and Hardy.

• 29:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. And look, anything could happen, anything could happen, you know? Who knows what the future of, of my Spider-Man looks like and.

• 29:34Josh Horowitz?

  You broke eye contact again. You just went, you just went, you went over here again.

• 29:37Speaker 02

  Well, listen. Just wait and see, bro. Just wait and see.

• 29:44Speaker 04

  More Happy, Say Confused, coming up.

• 29:50Speaker 04

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• 30:19Speaker 06

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• 31:03Speaker 06

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• 31:20Josh Horowitz?

  So No Way Home is a miracle of a film, like that it even exists.

• 31:25Speaker 02

  It's awesome. I'm so proud of it.

• 31:27Josh Horowitz?

  And that it wasn't just like a novelty. It could have just been kind of like coasting on like, this is awesome. Look at that. And then, but it's emotional and somehow works. Like, what do you take most pride in about that film from an acting perspective, from like a creative perspective, when you look at that achievement?

• 31:46Speaker 02

  I think sharing the screen with Toby and Andrew.

• 31:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 31:49Speaker 02

  I think as a fan of both of those guys and their movies,

• 31:55Speaker 02

  like it's such a wild experience to play a character while doing it with like two of your heroes from when you were a kid.

• 32:04Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  And having a shared experience, you know, playing Spider-Man is a really unique experience.

• 32:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 32:10Speaker 02

  You know, on the big screen, there's only three of us that have done it.

• 32:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  And to share that with those guys was really awesome. I think working with a lot of the villains, the iconic villains, for me as a fan again, was just absolutely out of this world crazy.

• 32:24Josh Horowitz?

  To see Willem Dafoe cross the sad moina, yeah.

• 32:26Speaker 02

  I mean, come on. It was crazy.

• 32:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 32:30Speaker 02

  And it just was an awesome experience. We had, you know, we kept it a secret for the best, for the most part, you know, there were little things.

• 32:40Josh Horowitz?

  Talk to Andrew Garfield and his Uber Eats guy or whatever.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  But what's so interesting is that like that, while at the time it felt like the walls were closing in and like, oh my God, the world knows, cat's out the bag, it's over.

• 32:51Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  It just added so much amazing speculation.

• 32:55Josh Horowitz?

  Oh my God. One of my favorite interview I think I've ever done is my postmortem with Andrew, Andrew after the movie came out.

• 33:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 33:01Josh Horowitz?

  Where he talked about lying to me for a year.

• 33:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's actually really tough, I think. When you, when you are sitting on these secrets and people are asking you about them and you are actually just lying all the time. That weighs really heavy on me.

• 33:16Josh Horowitz?

  And to be clear, from my, from our perspective, at least for me, I don't actually want you to spill anything. I don't want the movie ruined.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  I get that.

• 33:23Josh Horowitz?

  I'm just enjoying the dance myself.

• 33:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, I get that. I get that. Um, but no, that was a crazy time.

• 33:30Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 33:30Speaker 02

  And a highlight for me, I'm so proud of John Watson, like what he did with that original franchise, you know? Um, he really, really landed the plane there.

• 33:39Josh Horowitz?

  So again, talking about kind of like creative input, getting to this new film. As I understand, you had some, some ideas. You had some things you brought to the table.

• 33:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:48Josh Horowitz?

  Like I keep reading here in Spider puberty.

• 33:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:51Josh Horowitz?

  Is that, is that, is that kind of like the, the leading, I don't know, sentiment you brought to the table? What was the pitch?

• 33:57Speaker 02

  I wish you could hear the lead balloon that Spider puberty was in the room.

• 34:01Josh Horowitz?

  Like, do you have anything else?

• 34:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. For me, it was, it was this idea of exploring

• 34:08Speaker 02

  how a superhero develops over time.

• 34:11Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 34:12Speaker 02

  You know, as a young kid, you go through puberty and your body changes more than ever.

• 34:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  In my franchise, we never got to explore the really exciting time of any superhero movie where someone is figuring out how to use these new gifts.

• 34:30Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 34:31Speaker 02

  And I always felt like I wanted to try and find a way to explore that. So my idea is very different to what's in the movie and it evolved in the way that Peter evolved in a really big way. But I basically just put on the table like, what happens if Spider-Man starts developing all of these new powers?

• 34:51Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 34:51Speaker 02

  And he's getting stronger and he's getting faster and his senses are becoming too powerful and he, I didn't come up with the organic webs thing. At one point I was like, what if he had like fangs that come out his hands? And he had like venom spikes at one point and that is not in the movie, don't worry. And then, you know, we explored the, the nightmare sequences of him waking up as the man spider. And very quickly we were like, we do want children to enjoy this movie as well as adults. You know, it's a little bit too creepy. Um, but yeah, I was really grateful to Destin and Amy and Kevin and, and all of the, you know, creative team for letting me sit in that writer's room and just kind of

• 35:33Speaker 02

  bat ideas back and forth and, and try things and explore different options and, and we went down so many different rabbit holes before we got to what the movie is today. And, you know, sometimes it's the worst idea.

• 35:48Josh Horowitz?

  Right. You've got to go down that road and then.

• 35:50Speaker 02

  An absolute gold nugget of a piece of information. Um, so yeah, it was really fun.

• 35:56Josh Horowitz?

  So besides the stuff you just mentioned, I was curious, because you've never been shy about pitching stuff. You famously pitched Tom Rothman, like the James Bond origin thing that became Uncharted in a way. Like, what is the craziest thing you've ever pitched like years ago for Spider-Man that just like, never went anywhere? Is there one that jumps out at you that like, maybe this was a good idea in the bathroom, but it's not a good idea in practicality?

• 36:18Speaker 02

  Of course. I can't think off the top of my head, but there will be some rogue ones in there.

• 36:23Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 36:23Speaker 02

  That I'm sure there are some terrible ideas that I've pitched over the years.

• 36:28Josh Horowitz?

  So you've talked before about like, we all want to see Miles at some point, Miles Morales. Like in your, in your head, will you know when it's time to kind of pass the baton and like, have you imagined how you want that to go down?

• 36:41Speaker 02

  Oh yeah. There's a whole, there's a whole plan that we have been working on for, I would say since we finished Spider-Man No Way Home. And it's like laid out, it's going to change for sure.

• 36:58Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 37:00Speaker 02

  But I have a really clear vision to the passing on of the baton.

• 37:06Speaker 02

  And I think it's really exciting. I know I get really excited when we have these meetings and chat about it.

• 37:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 37:14Speaker 02

  But that is

• 37:16Speaker 02

  the thing that I want to do most in this character.

• 37:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 37:19Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 37:20Josh Horowitz?

  Is, um, we obviously, we're all selfish. We want to see Toby again. We want to see Andrew again. We want to see a new Miles. Um, do you think there's room for concurrent, like for, you know, there was talk after No Way Home, a lot of different talks.

• 37:32Speaker 02

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 37:33Josh Horowitz?

  Andrew could do with the thing in his multiverse, et cetera, like as a fan, from a fan perspective, because you were a fan first. Do you want to see that?

• 37:41Speaker 02

  Of course I do. Are you kidding? I think what's been so fun over these last few years is that there's so many different Spider-Man mediums. You know, we have Spider in a while that came out a few weeks ago. We have my version. We have, you know, the stuff that Sony have been doing. We have the animated movies that Sony make, which are just like the best Spider-Man movies that have ever been made, those animated movies. Like you can't, the heart in those movies is out of this world.

• 38:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 38:09Speaker 02

  Um.

• 38:10Josh Horowitz?

  You should add Nick Cage to the Spidey bros text chain. He's.

• 38:13Speaker 02

  That would be interesting. Maybe the whole screen just goes black and white when he texts.

• 38:18Josh Horowitz?

  I don't know what kind of texter he is, but.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  I don't know either. I don't know him. I don't know the guy. Um, but no, I think there's room for, of course there's room for it. And, you know, I think DC are going to start exploring that now. Like it doesn't, I think they're doing a new Batman that's running adjacent to Robert's Batman.

• 38:32Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 38:33Speaker 02

  Um, I think Robert is so good in that role.

• 38:37Josh Horowitz?

  I love those movies. And Matt Reed is.

• 38:38Speaker 02

  I think he's so good in that role.

• 38:40Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. He looks, I mean, you've seen The Odyssey, so you can.

• 38:42Speaker 02

  I mean, he's amazing in The Odyssey, dude. He like, what I love about Rob is that he,

• 38:49Speaker 02

  he never goes like down the middle.

• 38:51Josh Horowitz?

  Mm-hmm. No, he's fearless.

• 38:52Speaker 02

  Like he is super fearless and what he does in The Odyssey is, is, is top tier, for sure.

• 38:59Josh Horowitz?

  So, so, so heading towards the finish line, you mentioned Fred Astaire. I just want to bring that up because this is something you've been attached to for a long while.

• 39:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:05Josh Horowitz?

  And it's interesting. I was reading up, I mean, we all know Fred Astaire a little bit, but like I was reading up and I'm curious, like, is this about, like, he famously like worked with his sister and then they kind of like had a, they, they, they broke up as a team. Like it's kind of like, it sounds like a story of reinvention. He had to kind of like change his career and life. Like what, what's, what's, what about this story has kept you attached for nearly five years, I think? And what's, what's exciting?

• 39:31Speaker 02

  I am super excited about the challenge.

• 39:35Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 39:36Speaker 02

  And equally daunted. I think the thing I love the most about the script at the minute is it's the story of two siblings.

• 39:44Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 39:44Speaker 02

  And being a sibling and a brother is like a huge part of my life. And I don't feel like I've had the opportunity to tap into that in a way.

• 39:57Speaker 02

  The movie is still very much something that we are figuring out.

• 40:01Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 40:01Speaker 02

  So I don't really want to talk too much about like the ins and outs of what the movie will be. But I think thematically, it's just really interesting.

• 40:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 40:09Speaker 02

  It's really, really interesting. And it was finding that balance of if you don't know who Fred Astaire is, it's still a movie for you.

• 40:16Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 40:16Speaker 02

  Because there's so much more to his life than being a movie star that's interesting. And I think that's what we've been trying to figure out because truth be told, if you ask my brother, Paddy, who Fred Astaire is, he has no idea.

• 40:28Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right, right.

• 40:29Speaker 02

  And that to me is crazy, but I grew up a dancer and I love dancing. And I'm sure there are people my age at 30 who are like, I don't really know who he is. So yeah, we're figuring it out. It'll be great. Paul King is such a lovely guy and a super talented filmmaker. So I have a lot of confidence in that.

• 40:46Josh Horowitz?

  One step closer to the Paddington universe. There you go.

• 40:48Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 40:49Josh Horowitz?

  Will you be singing as well? Cause I mean, he's obviously known as a dancer, but he sang.

• 40:53Speaker 02

  There's some singing. Yeah. There's a bunch of singing. I've got to play the piano a whole bunch. And yeah, it's going to be great. It's going to be a lot of fun.

• 40:59Josh Horowitz?

  All right. We're going to end with this. The Happy Say Confuse profoundly random questions. You've never got to do these.

• 41:05Speaker 02

  Let's go.

• 41:06Josh Horowitz?

  I think I know the first dancer and I want to, I want to hear about it. Dogs or cats?

• 41:09Speaker 02

  Dogs. All day.

• 41:11Josh Horowitz?

  Big time dog guy.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  Oh man.

• 41:13Josh Horowitz?

  What's your, what's the name of yours again?

• 41:14Speaker 02

  I got Phil and Noon.

• 41:16Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, they're two.

• 41:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. I am really allergic to cats, so it's a little bit of an unfair.

• 41:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  Advantage, but my dogs are everything.

• 41:25Josh Horowitz?

  I'll have you know, besides Happy Say Confuse, my other passion right now is Who's a Good Guest, my show where I talk to actors and their dogs.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 41:33Josh Horowitz?

  Tom.

• 41:34Speaker 02

  Who, who has had the best dog so far?

• 41:36Josh Horowitz?

  I'm not going to rank the dogs, but.

• 41:39Speaker 02

  What are we even doing this for?

• 41:40Josh Horowitz?

  Here's what I'll say. Zoe Deutsch has a dog very much like mine. It's a pit mix.

• 41:44Speaker 02

  Cool. Love that.

• 41:45Josh Horowitz?

  Just like a love bug. So that one I relate the most.

• 41:48Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 41:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Very diplomatic. Who has the best dog?

• 41:53Josh Horowitz?

  What do you collect?

• 41:57Speaker 02

  Good memories.

• 42:00Josh Horowitz?

  Not a physical, nothing?

• 42:02Speaker 02

  Not so much anymore.

• 42:03Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  For a while, I was like really into collecting watches and and then I got a really meaningful watch and I just don't want to take it off.

• 42:13Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  So then I was like, why would I collect watches when the watch I'm wearing is, it means more to me than buying any watch. So I guess I collect watches, but not anymore.

• 42:22Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 42:22Speaker 02

  Um.

• 42:23Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  But yeah, good times.

• 42:25Josh Horowitz?

  Love it. Favorite video game of all time?

• 42:28Speaker 02

  Oh, The Last of Us.

• 42:30Josh Horowitz?

  It's a good one.

• 42:31Speaker 02

  The second one. So good.

• 42:34Josh Horowitz?

  Watch the series or you have been watching the HBO?

• 42:37Speaker 02

  I have not watched the series.

• 42:38Josh Horowitz?

  I'm kidding.

• 42:39Speaker 02

  No, I have not watched the series. Because I love the game so much.

• 42:44Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 42:44Speaker 02

  Like, I don't play video games all that much and the

• 42:50Speaker 02

  the game is just so good.

• 42:52Josh Horowitz?

  Have you played as yourself in Fortnite? There are multiple skins, I believe, of you.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  You know what, dude? I am so bad at Fortnite that I cannot play it because I just I don't even think I've ever got a kill in Fortnite. And when, when you play those people that stop building stuff,

• 43:10Speaker 02

  I, I don't know what to do.

• 43:11Josh Horowitz?

  You need some cheat codes.

• 43:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know how to do that.

• 43:14Josh Horowitz?

  Would you, this is the Dakota Johnson memorial question. She asked me this. I ask everybody. Would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt?

• 43:22Speaker 02

  A mouthful of bees, one bee in my butt, I think would be.

• 43:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, yeah. Okay, yeah.

• 43:30Josh Horowitz?

  What's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 43:32Speaker 02

  Uh, Zendaya.

• 43:36Josh Horowitz?

  That's the correct answer.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:38Josh Horowitz?

  By the way, did you enjoy the end of Euphoria?

• 43:40Speaker 02

  I love, yeah, I mean, I'm always like continually blown away by how talented she is and how she holds herself.

• 43:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 43:47Speaker 02

  And how much of a part of her life that whole experience was and

• 43:54Speaker 02

  it's just a, it's an amazing achievement. And she's, you know, she's been really decorated for making those shows. But I think the relationships and the friendship she's made and the creative risks she's taken and the end result is something that she should be so proud of and I'm so proud of her for doing it. And yeah, I mean, what an awesome, what an awesome run.

• 44:15Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, talk about a fearless performer.

• 44:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 44:18Josh Horowitz?

  Last actor you were mistaken for?

• 44:24Josh Horowitz?

  Ever happened? You're Tom Holland.

• 44:26Speaker 02

  I don't want to sound like a dick, though.

• 44:29Josh Horowitz?

  I said it for you.

• 44:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:30Josh Horowitz?

  It's okay, you're not a dick. You're the last thing.

• 44:35Speaker 02

  No, I don't know. My brother Sam has been mistaken for Timothy Chalamet before though, and I was there with him. We were standing together, straight past me and straight up to my brother, like you or Timothy Chalamet. And I was fucking devastated, but I was like.

• 44:52Speaker 02

  No, it was actually, yeah, it was really funny.

• 44:54Josh Horowitz?

  Promise wrapping up here. Worst noted director has ever given you?

• 44:57Speaker 02

  Oh, I can't say that out loud.

• 44:59Josh Horowitz?

  Don't, don't name the name. You don't have to say who it is.

• 45:01Speaker 02

  No, because people will figure it out.

• 45:02Josh Horowitz?

  Oh.

• 45:03Speaker 02

  It's, it's really bad.

• 45:05Josh Horowitz?

  I want to know that off camera. And finally, in the spirit of Happy, Say Confused. An actor who makes you happy. You see them on screen, you're in a better mood.

• 45:12Speaker 02

  Jacob Badaloon. Just love that guy to bits.

• 45:16Josh Horowitz?

  He's doing the dog show next week with me.

• 45:17Speaker 02

  He is?

• 45:17Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  Let's go, Jacob.

• 45:21Josh Horowitz?

  Movie that makes you sad?

• 45:25Speaker 02

  About Time.

• 45:26Josh Horowitz?

  Great.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  In a really wonderful way, though.

• 45:28Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. And a food that makes you confused. You don't get it.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  Sea urchin.

• 45:33Josh Horowitz?

  This has come up before.

• 45:34Speaker 02

  Who, why?

• 45:36Josh Horowitz?

  Why? It's the consistency, it's slimy, right?

• 45:39Speaker 02

  What on earth?

• 45:39Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 45:40Speaker 02

  We have, yeah, sea urchin.

• 45:42Josh Horowitz?

  There it is. There it is.

• 45:46Josh Horowitz?

  Tom Holland, finally, I guess, on Happy, Say Confused. Congratulations.

• 45:49Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me.

• 45:50Josh Horowitz?

  On the best movie ever made.

• 45:52Speaker 02

  You said it.

• 45:52Josh Horowitz?

  It's on the poster now.

• 45:54Speaker 02

  You heard it here first, folks.

• 45:57Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, thanks for your time.

• 45:58Speaker 02

  Thanks so much, man. Always a pleasure.

• 45:59Josh Horowitz?

  Thanks, man. Hey, Amy, hey, Kevin. How's it going? Good to see you both.

• 46:03Speaker 06

  Good to see you too.

• 46:04Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, let's talk. Um, let's still take a look back, first of all. I'm just curious. When you look back at the course of these past four films, what feels like the biggest creative risk you guys took over that span?

• 46:15Speaker 06

  Well, Kevin and I can look back on 27 years?

• 46:19Josh Horowitz?

  We could go back to that far if you want. I'm happy to.

• 46:22Speaker 06

  And I think, um, but when we think of these movies, it was really important to have, to put, um, Spider-Man into the MCU because he's a character that exists amongst other characters. And that was, on the one hand, risky and on the other hand, a no-brainer. And I think we've, um, you know, I think that we've managed to keep Spider-Man, uh, on his own.

• 46:51Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 46:51Speaker 06

  And also within a larger world. And I think that's, I think that, that, that was, that we did that good.

• 46:59Speaker 04

  I think we did good. We did good on that one.

• 47:01Speaker 06

  I did think we did.

• 47:02Josh Horowitz?

  I'm gonna say you did good.

• 47:04Speaker 06

  You know, because you could have gotten all lost.

• 47:06Josh Horowitz?

  Totally.

• 47:07Speaker 06

  But we didn't. It could have stunk.

• 47:09Josh Horowitz?

  The history of studios, different studios, intermingling and figuring out that stuff, it just doesn't happen.

• 47:15Speaker 06

  No, it was us.

• 47:16Speaker 04

  Well, it's a testament to Amy and to, and to her love of Spider-Man.

• 47:19Speaker 06

  No, and to you and your love of Spider-Man. It was because Kevin loved Spider-Man and I love Spider-Man so much that we both wanted to do the right thing for him. And we got our companies to agree.

• 47:33Speaker 04

  You know, the other thing about a risk, which is, which is weird to think about now, but excuse me, recasting him so soon after Andrew was a bit of a risk.

• 47:44Speaker 06

  That was.

• 47:45Speaker 04

  Bringing him in 10 years ago through civil war was our way to try to mitigate that risk. And then also taking three movies to tell an elongated version of Spidey's origin that Sam told in the first half of a movie.

• 47:59Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 47:59Speaker 04

  I think was also a risk. And bringing in, uh, you know, non-superhero supporting characters like Ned and MJ that, that play such a big

• 48:09Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 48:09Speaker 04

  part, which is what we wanted in his, in his high school, um, environment. And then sitting in your press conference today, Josh, with the three of them, now titans of industry and, uh, and, and much better spokesmen than we've ever been.

• 48:23Josh Horowitz?

  Well, it's also you reap the rewards of that risk that you just talked about because you have made another what could be considered a risk on this film, which is the Hollywood playbook is you go bigger. You go bigger, you keep escalating. And because those three actors are so phenomenal, because of what John and you guys

• 48:39Speaker 02

  You go smaller.

• 48:39Josh Horowitz?

  all, you went smaller.

• 48:41Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 48:41Josh Horowitz?

  Was there an iteration of this where you said like, let's try to go even bigger? Or was it, it was always the mission statement?

• 48:47Speaker 06

  It's, it's hard to get bigger than three Spider-Mans.

• 48:49Speaker 04

  Well, Amy does that in her animated movies with a hundred Spider.

• 48:52Josh Horowitz?

  That's fair.

• 48:53Speaker 06

  That's fair. But it, but you know, after you do a movie with three Spider-Mans and, which was a beautiful and generous reunion and generous experience for all of them. The point was really to concentrate on Peter. And going bigger never works.

• 49:15Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 49:15Speaker 06

  Because you can fucking help.

• 49:20Josh Horowitz?

  When you go to so-called street level, a lot of characters were talked about. Was there ever, did you ever go down the road of Daredevil, Kingpin? From what like Vincent has said, there are some rights issues on the, on the Kingpin side.

• 49:33Speaker 06

  Right.

• 49:33Speaker 04

  They're not, they're not. I mean, there, there are things to navigate like everything else, but, but we did. We talked about all those, all those characters.

• 49:39Speaker 06

  Daredevil in, in our movie, you know?

• 49:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. And is that, I mean, that's the thing, it was the Spider-Man pantheon, is you have such an insane wealth to choose from on each one. And you know as well as I do, it's like, like, you know, from a fan perspective, it bums me out a little bit that I've never seen Venom, Tom Hardy's Venom and Tom, and Tom's

• 49:58Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 49:58Josh Horowitz?

  Spider-Man. And I'm sure, how close did you guys get to that actually happening along the way?

• 50:03Speaker 06

  It would be great. Let's put it that way.

• 50:05Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Do you still have hope?

• 50:08Speaker 04

  Always have hope.

• 50:09Speaker 06

  Hope, I have hope.

• 50:11Speaker 04

  If we said no, we have no hope.

• 50:12Josh Horowitz?

  No, Josh, go home and cry about it.

• 50:14Speaker 06

  We have hope.

• 50:15Speaker 04

  We have no hope.

• 50:17Josh Horowitz?

  But wait, there is an animated version in the works, yes?

• 50:20Speaker 06

  There is, yes.

• 50:21Josh Horowitz?

  There is. Okay, okay. When, when you, I kind of alluded to this because, you know, when I talk to you, Kevin, it's always like, you were a fan first. You came at this from a fan. You still are a fan.

• 50:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 50:32Josh Horowitz?

  Can you talk a little bit more about the satisfaction of seeing Spider-Man and Punisher, Spider-Man and Hulk? It must make your geek heart very happy.

• 50:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's surreal. There's a, there's a, it's not a spoiler, there's a very brief moment in the movie where, where Spidey is perched on Hulk's back. And that's an image years ago and certainly when we started, uh,

• 50:58Speaker 04

  and Amy made the Sam Raimi movies, uh, that I never thought would have been possible. Hulk was at, at one studio, Spidey was at another studio, uh, we were our own studio. Uh, so there are moments like that and it's, and it's, I've been lucky enough for it to happen for a quarter of a century now. Where, yes, my, my, uh, inner nerd is very, very excited about what I'm, uh, what I'm watching.

• 51:21Josh Horowitz?

  Tom recently did the podcast with me and he, you know, we talk about the future and like Miles Morales always comes up and he said to me like, he already has in his brain how that kind of torch is passed. Are you all in alignment of kind of like if and when you get there, how it goes down?

• 51:38Speaker 06

  If and when we get there, we'll be aligned.

• 51:43Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, he has more of a creative seat at the table, obviously. It seems like this time especially, he was, he was there with you guys.

• 51:49Speaker 06

  He was, he was. He's, he's Spider-Man, so he knows more about Spider-Man than anybody.

• 51:54Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 51:55Speaker 06

  Um, and yes, of course, we love Miles. We have a movie coming out next summer.

• 51:59Josh Horowitz?

  How's it looking?

• 52:00Speaker 06

  It looks great.

• 52:03Josh Horowitz?

  Do you get a sneak peek?

• 52:04Speaker 04

  Do you get a sneak?

• 52:04Josh Horowitz?

  No.

• 52:05Speaker 06

  I offer him a sneak peek.

• 52:07Speaker 04

  No, I don't.

• 52:09Josh Horowitz?

  Your old buddy.

• 52:09Speaker 04

  I would like to see it as a fan. I like to see movies.

• 52:12Josh Horowitz?

  Let's, we'll go together.

• 52:13Speaker 06

  You guys go together.

• 52:16Josh Horowitz?

  Um, one more reminiscent thing. I mean, you talked about Sadie today and, uh, and I also think back to like the, the great choice you obviously made on Tom years back. Was it, was it a hard choice? You put him through the wringer. I mean, as you should, you, you went to endless auditions, but ultimately.

• 52:31Speaker 04

  There were a lot of contenders, uh, but as it, as the choices whittled down, it became very, very clear.

• 52:37Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 52:37Speaker 04

  Uh, that it was, that it was Tom.

• 52:39Speaker 06

  Yeah. I think the first time we actually saw him on camera, you know.

• 52:45Josh Horowitz?

  That's the one.

• 52:45Speaker 06

  He's pretty, he was pretty heartbeat.

• 52:48Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 52:49Speaker 06

  He just, he just has Peter Parker soul and.

• 52:54Speaker 04

  And his agility, like that, that's just the odd bonus that, uh.

• 52:58Josh Horowitz?

  You're also a represtitionist.

• 53:00Speaker 04

  He's also the best stunt.

• 53:02Speaker 06

  Yes, he is.

• 53:03Speaker 04

  Spidey we've had. He's not allowed to do that much anymore, but it's.

• 53:05Speaker 06

  I know. He's always wanting to. We always have to stop him.

• 53:08Josh Horowitz?

  Um, indulgent, I'm, I'm going to put your buddy on the hot seat for a second.

• 53:11Speaker 06

  Go, please.

• 53:12Josh Horowitz?

  We have a long history of me trying to like get dirt out of you. Can I do some rapid fire with you?

• 53:16Speaker 04

  Please.

• 53:16Josh Horowitz?

  You're good. You're so good at this. You're going to spat all of these away.

• 53:19Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 53:19Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 53:19Speaker 06

  Go. I'll watch.

• 53:21Speaker 04

  No.

• 53:23Josh Horowitz?

  Ryan Gosling wants to be Ghost Rider. Cynthia Erivo wants to be Storm. Why is Ryan Gosling not, not Ghost Rider? Why Cynthia Erivo not Storm?

• 53:32Speaker 04

  Uh, you never know what the future may bring. Both very good actors and, uh, great characters. Next, that's the rapid fire.

• 53:43Speaker 06

  It wasn't that rapid.

• 53:44Speaker 04

  No.

• 53:45Josh Horowitz?

  Adam Driver.

• 53:46Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 53:47Josh Horowitz?

  You've had conversations over a number of characters.

• 53:50Speaker 04

  Many, many, many.

• 53:50Josh Horowitz?

  Are we getting close to getting him on board?

• 53:53Speaker 04

  It's no secret. We'd like to, but it's a tradition to, to zoom with him and then he passed.

• 53:59Josh Horowitz?

  Is that right?

• 54:00Speaker 04

  That's, that's a, that's a long-lived tradition.

• 54:01Josh Horowitz?

  Very cordial, it's a nice conversation.

• 54:03Speaker 04

  Can be more cordial.

• 54:04Josh Horowitz?

  And then, does he say, does he pass in the moment or does he wait to pass afterwards?

• 54:07Speaker 04

  Uh, he's usually upfront, uh, about how he's feeling. Yeah.

• 54:12Josh Horowitz?

  How much time in therapy have you spent talking about Blade? This poor product, we need, just need to get this done, Kevin. How are you doing?

• 54:19Speaker 04

  Therapy. Should we get into a therapy session?

• 54:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, why not? I mean, we all want it. Mahershala wants it. How are you feeling at this moment?

• 54:26Speaker 04

  Uh, I'm feeling, uh, very excited that, uh, that we got Wesley back for a time in Deadpool and Wolverine and, uh, like a gigantic, uh, loser and failure that we didn't, uh, uh, get off the ground with, uh, Mahershala.

• 54:41Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, is there a World War Secret Wars as two films?

• 54:44Speaker 04

  Uh, not this world.

• 54:45Josh Horowitz?

  No?

• 54:46Speaker 04

  No.

• 54:46Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. How, Doomsday sticking to its release date?

• 54:50Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 54:50Josh Horowitz?

  Definitely. Okay. What does the MCU look like in a nutshell coming out of Secret Wars? Is it a, do you consider this a reboot?

• 54:58Speaker 04

  Uh, no, but I look to the comics as I always do, uh, in terms of, uh, in terms of our storytelling and, and after both the Secret Wars, but particularly the, the Hickman Secret Wars from 10 years ago, there's a, there's a nice roadmap to, to, to where we can go.

• 55:13Josh Horowitz?

  And, and last thing for you, um, how many X-Men have you cast that I just don't know about? Are people signed on right now for X-Men actors?

• 55:20Speaker 04

  Not necessarily.

• 55:22Josh Horowitz?

  Not necessarily.

• 55:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 55:23Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. Okay. We're going to go into this more in depth. One day you're coming on Happy Second Tuesday officially. And I'm happy to talk Star Trek with you, other things.

• 55:31Speaker 04

  I'd rather you, I'd rather you talk Star Trek with Amy. I was on your part.

• 55:36Josh Horowitz?

  I was a Trekkie before I was a Marvel fan, so we can go there. It's good to see you both. Congratulations.

• 55:42Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 55:42Josh Horowitz?

  Thank you. Thanks. Appreciate you guys.

• 55:45Speaker 03

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't supposed to do this by Josh.

• 56:03Speaker 04

  Most writers have written really terrible stories. My name is Vince DiGianni and I am no exception. The only thing different about me is that I kept them all. Now I'm going to force my very talented actor friends to read them with me. I want to read that like a man in his 50s or perhaps 40s if he was as large a smoker

• 56:21Speaker 06

  as the scent surrounding him suggested. Wow. Drag him, Vincent.

• 56:27Speaker 04

  There are teen slashers where every character sounds edgy as hell. There's sci-fi giants that read just a little bit too much like giant penises. And there's a murderer who enjoys musical theater for some reason. And occasionally, something I wrote 15 years ago will be much, much worse. Only after a few minutes did I realize that if I thought about a certain thing or said at a time when something was said or thought by, what am I reading? What does that mean? We're going to laugh. We will probably cringe and I may even cry just a little bit. Listen to Character Development, a comedy podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.