Kit Harington

Kit Harington joins HSC for the first time! Kit rarely does longform interviews, so this is a treat. He and Josh dive into his career, from how he feels about GAME OF THRONES now, to his new adaptation of A TALE OF TWO CITIES, to his excitement about being part of the upcoming HARRY POTTER series. Plus, a check-in on his MCU future, a funny story about how he and wife Rose Leslie act in front of their kids, his nickname for Leonardo DiCaprio, & more! SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! Rula -- Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.rula.com/happy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ #rulapod Quince -- Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Quince.com/HAPPYSAD ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for free shipping and 365-day returns. Limited Time Offer–Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code happy15 at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://huel.com/happy15.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ New Customers Only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show! UPCOMING EVENT! 10/13 -- Joe Manganiello in NY -- Tickets here: https://www.92ny.org/event/joe-manganiello-with-josh-horowitz-bloodlines Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Josh Horowitz?

  Have you sorted yourself? Where are you at?

• 0:02Speaker 01

  Have I what?

• 0:02Josh Horowitz?

  Sorted yourself? What house are you in?

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm Gryffindor.

• 0:06Josh Horowitz?

  You're Gryffindor?

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, obviously.

• 0:08Josh Horowitz?

  You're like, that's the most insulting question you could possibly ask. I'm not Slytherin, Josh.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gryffindor. So.

• 0:17Josh Horowitz?

  So just back off.

• 0:18Speaker 01

  Just back off.

• 0:20Speaker 02

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins.

• 0:27Josh Horowitz?

  Hey, guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy Sad Confused. Today on the show, it's Kit Harrington. Yes, Jon Snow is in the house talking not only Game of Thrones, but Harry Potter, Marvel, A Tale of Two Cities, and more. Thanks, guys, as always, for checking out the podcast. Remember to subscribe if you haven't already, YouTube, Spotify, whatever podcast platform you're using. I appreciate you guys. And remember to check out our Patreon. If you like what I do, if you want early access to what I do, bonus materials, all the sorts of fun stuff that support Happy Sad Confused, check out patreon.com/happy sad confused. Okay, so main event today, we always love a first time guest on the pod, and this is someone that it's long overdue to have Kit Harrington here.

• 1:07Josh Horowitz?

  But to be fair, he hasn't really done much in the way of podcasts, so I really appreciate him taking the time to do this today. There was a ton to talk about. His new project is A Tale of Two Cities. It's on MGM Plus, and of course, it is based on the Charles Dickens classic. But you know I'm going to talk about Game of Thrones and Marvel and Harry Potter. It all comes up here. And Kit is in a great place in his life now. Look, he's been through it. He's talked about it openly, dealing with addiction issues way back when and coming out the other side. And now being a dad, having a great career going, just being happy and well adjusted. It was great to see him in good spirits today. And have a great career chat about so many, so many cool projects. So a brief intro today because we're going to get to the main event.

• 1:49Josh Horowitz?

  I hope you guys enjoy this. Remember to check out A Tale of Two Cities on MGM Plus and enjoy this conversation with me and Kit Harrington. Kit, shall we do this?

• 1:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 2:00Josh Horowitz?

  Welcome to the podcast, man.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:02Josh Horowitz?

  It's good to see you. It's been a minute. And I know you don't do a ton of this kind of thing, so I really appreciate you, like the long form stuff, so.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  I think this is the second podcast I've ever done.

• 2:13Josh Horowitz?

  I appreciate the trust.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I'm sorry if I'm terrible.

• 2:17Josh Horowitz?

  You're gonna kill it. You're gonna kill it. I think the first time I met you was briefly for, you came to MTV Studios for Testament of Youth. That's my, that's my recollection. You were a little intimidating to me back then.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  Really?

• 2:29Josh Horowitz?

  You were.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  Am I less intimidating now?

• 2:33Josh Horowitz?

  Now you're whatever. I'm like, Kit, coming in? No, I don't know. I think you project, I don't know, what do you think you project into the world? Like, do you feel like you've, you have kind of a demeanor that you consciously or unconsciously project?

• 2:46Speaker 01

  I think it's changed. I think I tried to project something, but probably around that time into the world. Maybe that came across as intimidating. I don't know.

• 2:55Josh Horowitz?

  You were perfectly lovely. Don't get me wrong. It was not, nothing rude about you, but yeah, sometimes, you know, that's an energy thing. And then maybe at that time you were, you were in the height of a lot of things.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I was trying to project some sort of gravitas.

• 3:09Josh Horowitz?

  Is that right?

• 3:09Speaker 01

  And some sort of, some seriousness.

• 3:13Josh Horowitz?

  And now?

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Now I don't really care. I've been too long in the teeth now.

• 3:19Josh Horowitz?

  We were catching up in terms of like where you're at in life and work, busy being dad, obviously, to two kids, doing the press stuff for A Tale of Two Cities, which we'll talk about. Also seem to be working quite a bit. I feel like you've been in the city a bit. Have you spent a lot of time in our fair city, New York lately?

• 3:33Speaker 01

  I was here for a good few months earlier this year, filming a TV series for Hulu called Count My Lies. And yeah, we moved the family over here. I was here throughout the whole Knicks run, which is amazing.

• 3:50Josh Horowitz?

  Come on, did you jump on the bandwagon?

• 3:52Speaker 01

  I went, I was, yes, I did. I went to game four. I know, I'm so lucky. I was so cheeky as well, like I had no right to those tickets.

• 4:03Josh Horowitz?

  You knew.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  I had zero right to those tickets.

• 4:05Josh Horowitz?

  Had you ever been to a basketball game before?

• 4:06Speaker 01

  No.

• 4:07Josh Horowitz?

  Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  Well, maybe like one at the Knicks like previously, but I was not, you know, I was, I was, I was passing people in the street on the way there that were like diehard Knicks fans.

• 4:18Josh Horowitz?

  Like crying.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  And I did, there was a bit of guilt that I was getting to go, but I now.

• 4:22Josh Horowitz?

  Now you get it.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  Consider myself.

• 4:24Josh Horowitz?

  You better.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  Quite a serious Knicks fan.

• 4:25Josh Horowitz?

  Did you know what was going on? Did you know the basic rules of the sport?

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Yes, by, by the end, I was really clued up. Yeah.

• 4:31Josh Horowitz?

  No, and I'm starting to resent you. Now I'm starting to get angry.

• 4:33Speaker 01

  I resent me too. I would resent me.

• 4:36Josh Horowitz?

  No, not at all. What is your relationship to New York? I mean, it's like, I always feel like the twin cities, London and New York. I grew up in New York. I love London. Feel like folks, I don't know, there's a symmetry there in some ways.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  I find it, I love it. I find it, I mean, it sounds like the most obvious thing. I find it quite intense.

• 4:54Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  Like, it's about three notches faster than my general pace of life.

• 5:00Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  And so I can, I can deal with it for, for a few weeks, but then after that, I find that my, I'm an anxiety ridden person anyway. My anxiety is up.

• 5:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  And I, and I, and I have to, I'm then questioning why that is. And I go, well, maybe it's the city. And then I step out and I'm, okay. But I love coming here.

• 5:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  And it, and it has a kind of like, it gives me a fix, but I do also love leaving.

• 5:26Josh Horowitz?

  You've, you've never, I don't think you've done theater here, have you? You've done so much theater in your life.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  No.

• 5:32Josh Horowitz?

  Is that, is that not a, I mean, again, for the reasons you just described, maybe it's not a priority, but still, there's something about bringing your talents here on the stage would be exciting, no?

• 5:42Speaker 01

  There's been times, and there's been times there, I've done a show in London that, you know, there's been talk of it transferring or coming to New York. I have nothing against Broadway. I would love to do some Broadway or Off Broadway or whatever. I think it is now, it's a practical element for me. I have two young kids. They're in school. It means uprooting everyone for a long time. It's difficult. It's difficult to factor that, to factor that in nowadays.

• 6:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:08Josh Horowitz?

  Did you come to the States a lot as a, as a kid? Like, what was your relationship to?

• 6:12Speaker 01

  No, my first, the first time I ever came to America was to New York. And I did this trip down the East Coast. I was 18 and I came by myself and I went, New York. It's not a very long trip. New York, Washington, Philadelphia, or New York, Philadelphia, Washington.

• 6:31Josh Horowitz?

  Sure, sure, sure. So it's, it's, you've got some major landmarks out of the way. That's good.

• 6:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:36Josh Horowitz?

  Some of the.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it was, it was, it was amazing. I remember feeling like I'm walking onto a film set. I fell in love with New York then.

• 6:44Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  But yeah, it's all a bit in the misty, in the misty part of my memory.

• 6:50Josh Horowitz?

  Were you, were you watching our silly sitcoms, our silly pop culture? Were you as much engaged with American pop culture as stuff back home?

• 7:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes. I think it sort of was limited in my childhood to the Chicago Bulls.

• 7:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  So there we go. So you see, I am a NBA fan. It is in my blood. The Chicago Bulls, what was my childhood memory of America, the US? Chicago Bulls, friends, which of course, and like, and maybe that's it. I'm like just vague.

• 7:32Josh Horowitz?

  You've summed up America in the best way.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  Whatever the word is in America file. I'm not like, but I remember it feeling like Rome, like, like being the center of the world.

• 7:44Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 7:44Speaker 01

  And, and, and I think if you were kind of born and raised in the West like I was, yeah, it held a kind of mythical place.

• 7:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. The, the reason that you've come in today is I was complimenting you before, A Tale of Two Cities is an ambitious piece of work, as you would hope it would be, based on the source material. This is on MGM Plus. Where were you at when this one comes around? I mean, I would imagine like it's often as much about like where you're at in your life, what you're looking to do lifestyle wise as the material sometimes. Did this catch you at the right time in terms of what you were looking for or?

• 8:20Speaker 01

  This was a long process.

• 8:22Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  About 10 years ago, my producing partner and best friend, Dan West, and I, we did a show called Gunpowder.

• 8:31Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  Another period piece. And that was the first thing we produced in our company. And after that was done, you know, we started knocking around other ideas and, and it was quite quickly that we landed on the idea of doing Tale of Two Cities. Because we just felt it had not, that Dickens, we loved Dickens and we were both big fans of the book and, but it felt like every Dickens that there was had been trotted out almost yearly.

• 9:00Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  But Tale of Two Cities hadn't been done since the 80s.

• 9:03Josh Horowitz?

  It's funny. I was thinking back to this. It's like, I can't actually think of like a definitive recent or even ancient kind of depiction of it.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  And not a successful depiction of it. It's a difficult one to, to adapt.

• 9:15Josh Horowitz?

  There's a reason perhaps, yeah.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  But it's, the reasons it was difficult to adapt, we isolated to being, okay, you have these two central characters around this central character, the female central character. And they're meant to be identical, right? The doppelgangers.

• 9:30Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  And that's always like posed the question of, okay, do you have the one actor playing the same parts? And I think that never works.

• 9:37Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 9:39Josh Horowitz?

  Not tempting to you? Cause like a lot of actors will be like, oh.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  Not tempting at all.

• 9:43Josh Horowitz?

  Really?

• 9:43Speaker 01

  Double the number of days.

• 9:46Josh Horowitz?

  Thinking practically.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  And, and just like my ego is big enough. I don't need to play two roles.

• 9:50Josh Horowitz?

  Let Tom Hardy do all the double roles.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  I, I just think it never works. I think it's a really hard thing to pull off and I don't think it works.

• 9:57Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  So there was that, that one reason we felt it hadn't really been done. And Dan sort of posed the idea that you only need these guys to be similar enough.

• 10:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  That in a court of law, you can throw up a reasonable doubt and that towards, without spoiling it, towards the end, there can be a, a moment where they get confused for one another.

• 10:20Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  And the other problem with it is it's bilingual, that you've got the two cities, it's French and English. But we felt that now audiences much have a much greater capacity for reading subtitles. So we felt that this was the time to do it. And once you get past those two issues, the story is fantastic. It is a sweeping romance in the backdrop of a bloody revolution. It's got all of the um, the elements to make a great um, entrancing, impulsive um, period drama. And then you've got to try and sell the thing and.

• 11:00Josh Horowitz?

  Is that difficult?

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Period dramas are difficult because people love them. Once they, once they come to screen, people really enjoy the period nature or something. But they're, they're difficult to, to get off the ground at times. And that's why I took a little, a little beat. But thankfully, you know, we had a wonderful company called Federation and then MGM Plus came in and, and and they believed in it. So.

• 11:24Josh Horowitz?

  Well, it's got a scale. It feels like it's, it's, it's a, it's a massive production again, as you, as something like this would demand.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:31Josh Horowitz?

  For, for, I mean, it sounds like Gunpowder might have been a shift for you in terms of like realizing like to have some agency and in crafting a uh, production.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:41Josh Horowitz?

  Um, do you get something more out of something like this, like Gunpowder, where you have a seat at the table?

• 11:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love it. And, and I'm not interested particularly in, when you're doing your actors' deals for things occasionally, they're like, you want to be an EP?

• 11:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  And I, I'm not interested in that because I, I feel like if I'm, if I'm an exec producer on something, I should be an exec producer on something. So I'm only interested in, in, in that regard, coming in as an exec, if I'm actually at the table. And with Dan and I's stuff, we're there from word go, building it from the ground up and learning our craft as producers as we go. And we're still, we're still very green, I think. Um, but yeah, I, I, I, I, I'm restless as a person and I, I find that I, I am unsatisfied sometimes. This is very greedy of me, but I'm unsatisfied just being an actor on something.

• 12:40Josh Horowitz?

  The, the famous adage is that they, they, what they pay you to wait, right? That, that's what you're being paid for, like.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  I'm bad at waiting. I'm an impatient, restless person.

• 12:48Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  So I'm, I'm, I fa- I find myself on sets muscling in and trying to make directorial decisions. And I have to stop myself. And, and that's why I came, I, I directed something recently because I was like, if you really want to do it, you should go and direct something. But the producing is part of that. Like, I'm, I'm really interested in, in that creative producer side, which says, okay, this is an amazing story. Can we, can we build something out?

• 13:13Josh Horowitz?

  But can I ask you, because you mentioned directing, I, I, I saw the trailer for it. I don't think it's available online yet. Like you did a short with um, among others, great Harry Melling.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:21Josh Horowitz?

  I just saw him in a film at, at one of these festivals. He's just so talented.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  He's amazing.

• 13:25Josh Horowitz?

  Um, did that scratch that itch, that kind of like ignite something in the under directing side of things? Like, what did you get out of that experience?

• 13:31Speaker 01

  It absolutely did.

• 13:32Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  Uh, interestingly, and it also gave me a new appreciation for actors. Because until that point, I'd been like, I was like, acting is actually not, you know, probably the easiest element of filmmaking. But I, I then, being on the other side of camera and watching what Harry was doing and Kieran was doing, the two actors we had in our, in, in the short. You know, I would come in and I'd give some really crap, simple piece of direction, like, okay, that was perfect. But could you try it with a bit of vulnerability or a bit more just up the vulnerable? And watching them take this bad dialogue I've written and, and upping the vulnerability in it. And just it totally changing and going, and knowing that I knew how to do that myself.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Made me appreciate the art of acting. But the, the, the, the directing side, I just, it was explained to me like this and I thought it was, it was, this is a really good way of putting it. Miguel Sopchnik, who I worked with on Game of Thrones and has become a good friend, guided me through it. And he said, what you are is a fishing net.

• 14:38Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  You put all the best people that you can find around you.

• 14:42Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  And you catch their ideas as they go through. And I love that because I love being at the center of all these ideas coming to me and going, that's good. I'm not sure about that. Let's work on that one. And just like twiddling here and there.

• 14:57Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, no, directing is kind of like saying yes and no to a thousand options essentially. And then that's how you're finding your own, your own voice. But it's foolish to think you have the, all the answers, like the best is to.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  And knowing when to trust in, in someone else's thing.

• 15:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. More Happy Say Confused coming up.

• 15:19Speaker 03

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• 16:03Speaker 03

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• 16:18Speaker 04

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• 17:06Josh Horowitz?

  So back to this production, from a character perspective, from an acting perspective, what's intriguing to you about Sidney? Kind of like an archetypal anti-hero in some ways. Um, what do you get out, get out of it from an acting?

• 17:21Speaker 01

  I think he fascinates me. I mean, there's so much about him that I relate to personally, like he's a, he's gone through, or he's going through. He's an, he's an addict. Um, uh, he, what I really love about that character is he is a lawyer and always two steps ahead of everybody else.

• 17:43Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  And he's two steps ahead of the reader or the audience.

• 17:46Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  And, and that's the thing he struggles with is that he's incredibly smart. And, and almost too, too smart for this world, which makes him very cynical um, and nihilistic.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  But I think the way I approached him and the, I, what I felt was the right way to approach him was at this point in the story, he is, the only thing that keeps him going is the booze or, or being in a courtroom.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  And in walks this incredible entity of Lucy Monnette. And he suddenly gets a new belief in life.

• 18:30Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  The trouble is that he, he approaches it from an addict-y standpoint. So he looks at her to be his fix, that she's going to fix everything for him. If they just are together, then that's going to be the thing that solves him, rather than coming into it as an equal partnership. Now, I won't spoil the end for anyone, but the end is one of the most iconic.

• 18:53Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Um, endings in any literature. And, and if you are watching the show or, or going to come watch the show, please follow it through, because the end is beautiful. Um, but I think his realization at the end is, is about, um.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know how to say it without, I don't want to spoil it for anyone who hadn't read the book or, but it's about, um, he, he, he does feel completed in what he's, he's doing, in the choices he's making.

• 19:25Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, it, it's interesting to hear you talk about, you know, parallels that you feel with character and you've been honest and open about dealing with your own issues in the past, addiction, et cetera. I mean, is that scary for you to kind of like, go to characters that share some of that stuff that you've reckoned with yourself? Cause I could, you could go another way. Like, I don't want to fucking even think about that.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  No, I love it. I, I, I, I've realised I love it. You know, I, I did a couple of seasons on industry and I'm, I'm filming that as well at the moment. With a character who has to delve into that stuff as well. And I've realised that it's a way of getting, it's now fun. I now get to have fun as Sydney sozzled in a bar or, or Henry, you know, doing lines or like whatever it is. Like I get to, um, I get to like really, uh, exorcise something.

• 20:21Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Without the consequences that you once had to do.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  Without, without consequences of, of drinking or whatever it is, you know? So, um, yeah, no, I, I, I'm, I also think that, you know, I have this belief that any good character is addicted to something. I think it's built into all drama.

• 20:39Josh Horowitz?

  It's built into all humans. Like we're all, we all have our addictions. Some manifest, they just manifest in different ways. I mean, I suppose some personalities, just we're wired differently. Some have more addictive personalities generally, but.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  So there's always, I call it what you want. They're super objective, whatever it is. There's something that they desperately want. And I, I, I look at that almost as from an addict's standpoint, like what is he, what is he addicted to?

• 21:04Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  You know, it's usually pretty clear. It's a person or a thing or a objective or a, um, you know, uh, he's hunting the truth. Or he's addicted to himself.

• 21:14Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  Like whatever it is, like it's, it's there. And then you've got your kind of, your core kind of principle to the person.

• 21:20Josh Horowitz?

  That's interesting. It must like kind of clarify your purpose as an actor. Like, once you kind of walk in, like, what is the reason for this person to get up and, you know, out of bed? What are they driving towards? It kind of like answers a lot of questions.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does. And I often find if I'm reading a script and I can't see it, I'm like, I don't know how to play this.

• 21:38Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, right.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't know how to play this. I don't know what this person wants.

• 21:42Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  And there's probably something either wrong with the script or it's just a part that's not for me.

• 21:46Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Um, all right. Since we have the luxury of time, if you'll indulge me, let's go back a little bit. So young kit. I was just asking this to, I asked, let's do a lot of guests, like extrovert, introvert, where it was a clear very early on to those in your friends and family that like you were going to be a performer or did that come late?

• 22:03Speaker 01

  I think he probably was, I think definitely extrovert.

• 22:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Um, I would, I would describe myself still and then as anxiety ridden extrovert, maybe, I think. I think I was, I was quite loud and verbose. Um, as a kid and me, me, me and, and look at me and wanted attention and enjoyed attention.

• 22:26Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  Um, I had a very busy brain always and, and wanted to be heard a lot. So, yeah, I think, I'd, I'd like to say I'm,

• 22:41Speaker 01

  I, I'd, I'd, I'd like to say I'm introverted, but I'm not. I'm extroverted. But incredibly socially anxious at the same time.

• 22:49Josh Horowitz?

  What, how did anxiety manifest when you were a kid, when you were a teenager? Like in what kind of situations? Like?

• 22:55Speaker 01

  I, I, is it, is a teenager like I'm, I'm very, um,

• 23:01Speaker 01

  I, I, you know, I think that I would, I would crawl off into a, into a cupboard and hide.

• 23:06Josh Horowitz?

  This is a metaphorical.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  No, no, a real cupboard. If I was in a social situation, I would go to, like in a party.

• 23:13Josh Horowitz?

  He's in his cupboard.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would often be found like just kind of like breathing. Cause it all got too much.

• 23:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  But, um, I, I think I'm, I'm one of, I'm one of those, whatever that is, I'm one of those. Um, but I, I was, as far as being an actor or in, or, or creative, um, I always sort of, uh, sort of assumed, I actually have a distinct memory of wanting to be a journalist. And then, and then I looked at some, some old school stuff and like age 12 had written and said, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I said, an actor, like just really clearly.

• 23:53Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  And I think that was my A plan and B plan.

• 23:56Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  It was, oh, my A plan is actor.

• 23:58Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  But my, like, that, that is incredibly.

• 24:02Josh Horowitz?

  Who becomes that? How does that happen?

• 24:03Speaker 01

  To make a life out of. And what else am I interested in? I'm interested in journalism. So that was kind of my, my kind of B plan in some ways.

• 24:11Josh Horowitz?

  What were you? Did you have posters on the wall? Were there?

• 24:14Speaker 01

  All icons, all iconography. It was like Bob Marley, um, uh, Dylan.

• 24:22Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  Um, are there any actors? I'm sure like, I'm sure, um,

• 24:29Speaker 01

  why am I, why am I drawing on the name of Marlon Brando?

• 24:32Josh Horowitz?

  Of course.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  Like, uh, it was all big, my whole bedroom was covered. Every inch of it was covered with artwork or, or posters. And they were all posters of, of quite, of icon, icons really.

• 24:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  Both in the acting and the music world.

• 24:49Josh Horowitz?

  Were there, did you have a, a genre of film you gravitated towards? Were you into kind of like, you know, genre stuff? Obviously you end up working in a lot of genre fair. Was that your bag as a kid too? Or not really?

• 25:02Speaker 01

  No, no, it wasn't. Um, I always liked a, a horror movie though.

• 25:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  And I still do.

• 25:10Josh Horowitz?

  What's your, have this big year for horror? Have you caught up with obsession or?

• 25:13Speaker 01

  I loved obsession. I thought obsession was brilliant. It's exactly the type of horror I like as well.

• 25:19Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 25:20Speaker 01

  And they were both, the two leads in that were both incredible.

• 25:23Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  I think she is, she, he is well, but.

• 25:26Josh Horowitz?

  But no indie.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  There was something about her that was just, that was a magnetic performance.

• 25:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 25:32Speaker 01

  I loved that film.

• 25:33Josh Horowitz?

  Trying to think, have you done horror? I'm, I'm, I'm blanking. Have you done?

• 25:36Speaker 01

  I'm trying to think. I did, I did, um, a very long, long, long time ago, I did, um,

• 25:44Speaker 01

  I did a movie based on a video game.

• 25:46Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, Silent Hill.

• 25:47Speaker 01

  Silent Hill. Silent Hill Revelation 3D.

• 25:50Josh Horowitz?

  That old chestnut.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  Other than that.

• 25:55Josh Horowitz?

  It's a good sign when you.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  I did one, I did, um, Baby Ruby.

• 25:59Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  Was a kind of interesting, um, it was a lovely kind of little kind of horror thriller that I did.

• 26:04Josh Horowitz?

  That's what we talked about.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  That's what we talked about in Toronto. Yeah. It was that.

• 26:08Josh Horowitz?

  Got there. We were trying to remember when we.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  Baby Ruby.

• 26:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 26:13Josh Horowitz?

  Were you a Silent Hill gamer? Clearly not. You couldn't come up with the name of it. Were you a gamer?

• 26:17Speaker 01

  No, uh, no, I, I, no, not a gamer. Not a gamer. I don't know why. I, I feel like I, I played, the only game I've ever played really was Mario Kart and Diddy Kong Racing. And, and some Tekken.

• 26:37Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  And then recently the Harry Potter game. That was the, that was the thing I played.

• 26:43Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing. We'll get to, we'll get to that obviously. It's not Grand Theft Auto. Everyone's going to be talking about Grand Theft Auto.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  No, but I do want to play that. I've seen it. I've seen it, um, uh, advertised.

• 26:52Josh Horowitz?

  It's going to be bigger than any movie this year. You know, like how much, it's a billion dollars.

• 26:55Speaker 01

  Brilliant video of these guys. There's a video on YouTube of these guys like pretending they're in, have you seen those? It's so good because of how real the graphics are now.

• 27:05Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  There's, there's videos of like people actually like walking across the street like.

• 27:10Josh Horowitz?

  Like as in the game?

• 27:11Speaker 01

  And then beating someone up and it's brilliant.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 27:16Speaker 05

  More Happy Say Confused coming up.

• 27:23Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Whitney. And I'm Katie. And we're the hosts of True Crime Campfire. We set out to make a true crime podcast we'd want to listen to. We get right to the story. We don't do a lot of extra talking and when we do, it's usually to roast the short hairs off of some loser murderer or scammer. You'll laugh, but only at the people who deserve it. Like which serial killer would you most like to shove into a locker? BTK and his awful poetry. Dude got caught because he didn't understand what a floppy disk was. We look for the stranger than fiction stories, like the case of Patty James, a killer catfish before the internet was even a thing. Or Howard Walmsley, a sentient wad of damp laundry who convinced his town he'd won the lottery. Fleeced local businesses out of thousands and then became a romance scammer.

• 28:08Speaker 06

  We've covered tons of cases you've never heard of. Colts, scammers, killers. So come find your next great binge. Listen to True Crime Campfire on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Friday. Most writers have written really terrible stories. The only thing different.

• 28:26Josh Horowitz?

  Something about me is that I kept them all. And on my brand new show, Character Development, I'm gonna force my very talented actor friends to read them with me. There are teen slashers where every character sounds edgy as hell. There's sci fi giants that read just a little bit too much like giant penises. And there's a murderer who enjoys musical theater for some reason. Listen to Character Development, a comedy podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 28:57Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, so was there, was there a performance you saw on stage or a film that really made an impact on you? Growing up that kind of cemented the, the cause?

• 29:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, there were a few. Um, there was, uh, I, I always admired. Decap. I always loved what he did. But it's from a, from a kind of like. Big movie star perspective, like watching him in Romeo and Juliet was a big formative thing.

• 29:25Josh Horowitz?

  I've never heard him referred to as Decap. This is like.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  Decap? You never heard Decap?

• 29:28Josh Horowitz?

  No, at first I was like, I don't know what the fuck he's talking about. And then I got it.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  You don't call him Decap?

• 29:33Josh Horowitz?

  It's just Leo. It's just Leo.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  That makes you sound like I know him.

• 29:38Josh Horowitz?

  Decap sounds like he's a rapper. Like what's?

• 29:40Speaker 01

  Decap, yeah. Decap.

• 29:43Josh Horowitz?

  So what were the Decap performances again?

• 29:45Speaker 01

  Romeo and Juliet.

• 29:46Josh Horowitz?

  Of course.

• 29:47Speaker 01

  And, um, you're gonna have to help me out with names of things.

• 29:50Josh Horowitz?

  You're okay.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Gilbert, Gilbert Grape.

• 29:52Josh Horowitz?

  Gilbert Grape. We got you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 29:54Speaker 01

  And what was the one he did where he was a basketball, Basketball Diaries?

• 29:56Josh Horowitz?

  Basketball Diaries. Yeah, again, basketball's the theme today. You are a diehard basketball fan.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  Turns out I was, yeah. Turns out I was.

• 30:03Josh Horowitz?

  Have you met Decap ever?

• 30:04Speaker 01

  No, he walked past me once. And I sort of half smiled. And he half smiled at me. And I, I always regret not.

• 30:14Josh Horowitz?

  Doing the full smile.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Bother him.

• 30:16Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean?

• 30:16Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  But, but I, I always regret not.

• 30:18Josh Horowitz?

  Next time just be like, yo, Decap, what, what up?

• 30:20Speaker 01

  Decap.

• 30:24Josh Horowitz?

  Skid Hare over here.

• 30:30Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, so that's an inspiration. It kicks in. I mean, Warhorse is the game changer, I would assume. Is that the one that really kind of puts you on the map in terms of?

• 30:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that was my first job. I, I had my, my trajectory out of drama school was, was unreal. Like I, I, I got Warhorse while I was in my third year of drama school. So I knew I was leaving and two weeks later I would start rehearsals to be the lead alongside the puppet.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Important lead in, um, in the National Theatre, our, our great theatre in London.

• 31:02Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Um, I, I still to this day don't think I've ever jumped higher than when I got that role.

• 31:07Josh Horowitz?

  Right, there's never anything like that first moment, right?

• 31:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, just to be, just to be spear carrier number three at the RSC would have been enough. But to be the lead on the Olivier stage, people work their whole careers to, to do that. And I walked out of drama school into that role.

• 31:22Josh Horowitz?

  And it's a, that show was a remarkable, I mean, I didn't see, I didn't see.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  Did you see it on stage?

• 31:26Josh Horowitz?

  I saw it here in New York eventually, but I mean, it's a historic production, obviously.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  It was still, it still lives in my memory as being one of my, like, my all time great jobs. Because the, the audience reaction during it was astounding.

• 31:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  Um, and you got to feel it and witness it. And it really was, it was true, truly wonderful theatre.

• 31:50Josh Horowitz?

  Did you go up for the Spielberg film? Was that even in the cards?

• 31:53Speaker 01

  I did, I think. And I, and, uh, and I didn't, I didn't, obviously didn't get it. Um, but I remember like leaving Warhorse. Uh, and at the time, you know, especially my dad thought that was mental. He was like, why are you leaving a job? And I was like, no, I have to, I've been doing it for a year. And, and then a lot of stuff kind of came in. I had American agents by that point. And so, you know, the Warhorse, the movie was happening. But then I, then Thrones came along.

• 32:23Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  And so I was, I was in, I was in that world.

• 32:26Josh Horowitz?

  Was, was there a close call before Thrones in terms of like, were you going up for major?

• 32:31Speaker 01

  I went Warhorse then Thrones. So I auditioned for, for Thrones while I was in Warhorse. So I, I, that's what I mean. I went boom, boom, boom.

• 32:41Josh Horowitz?

  Crazy.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  Um, but I remember there being some like, so everything had gone well, like. And then I remember, like, I was probably very hubristic by then. And then I remember going up for a film called Arthur and Lancelot.

• 32:56Josh Horowitz?

  Right, which never happened.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  That was never happened. But I assumed, oh, now you go theatre, major TV, Hollywood film. Of course, that's how it works.

• 33:05Josh Horowitz?

  You learned like everybody else, some humility along the way. There are gonna be ups and downs.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  And then I realized that, and then that never happened. And I was like, oh, and I remember that being a bit crushing, but.

• 33:14Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  It's, yeah, it's good for me that didn't happen.

• 33:18Josh Horowitz?

  Good to learn that at some point for all of us, right? So, look, Thrones obviously can take up an entire conversation. But like, it, it's such a huge part of your life and for personal and professional reasons, I would imagine. I mean, when you think back to, I mean, can you kind of like slice it up into different periods of time? Like, do you remember the first year or two when it just exploded out into the world? And, and just how that changed your life in practical terms and, and how you reckoned with it?

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Like, yeah, I can and I can't. Like, I, I think it was a slower build than people sort of remember now.

• 33:51Josh Horowitz?

  Really?

• 33:52Speaker 01

  I mean, it really exploded after season three.

• 33:55Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  But it, back, back at the start, it was a, obviously a big show that they were pouring money into. And it had done well, but it was still a kind of fringe show. People were like. Heavy into Breaking Bad, I think.

• 34:09Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  And Game of Thrones was a kind of upstart one coming along here.

• 34:14Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Um, but, uh, no, I, I, I sort of always assumed that it would never get another season. Until, like, until we got to, like, season five, where, where, where it kind of was inevitable. It was gonna carry on. But I, um, I just, I just, I played each season, like each season and, and, and. But it, yeah, it, I look back and I, and we talked earlier about. Sort of like putting up a, a front or like, I, I think I just look back and I just really. All of this, all of the fresh stuff was very alarming.

• 34:49Josh Horowitz?

  You were, you were, you by necessity were playing a role. You were playing, this is how you're supposed to be.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:56Josh Horowitz?

  In this kind of environment.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Really cool. I'm really collected. I know what I'm doing. And inside, I'm, I want to go and stand in the cupboard.

• 35:02Josh Horowitz?

  In the cupboard?

• 35:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:03Josh Horowitz?

  Well, by nature, and you've talked about this, like, that role was also, that wasn't just the show, it was the role. And everything that people put upon you as that character.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah.

• 35:12Josh Horowitz?

  And you had this like bifurcation, this like, this connection with like, I'm not that guy. No one's that guy, but I'm certainly not that guy. I'm sorry.

• 35:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, this, it's, it's weird. You, you, like, I think that happens to a lot of actors. And, but especially if the, if the role is so. So seen, so known by, you know, it, that, and you look like it the whole time. People do sort of, yo, Jon Snow.

• 35:42Josh Horowitz?

  You got that.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Like, you get, you get a lot of that and you're like, hello. Actually, I'm just a, you know, I'm.

• 35:51Josh Horowitz?

  Just trying to get my coffee.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. But you do, yeah, there's a, there's a, there's a weird personality split that happens.

• 35:58Josh Horowitz?

  Is, do you still get the yo Jon Snows? Do you still get the, I know, you know, nothing?

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 36:04Josh Horowitz?

  You've reconciled that you're gonna hear people scream, you know, nothing until the day you die.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  And I hope I do.

• 36:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, you've come to that, you've come to that. Cause I, again, I've talked to many actors that have these iconic roles associated with them. And it's a journey. There's that period of time probably where you feel like, really today, like.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:20Josh Horowitz?

  I, I could use a day off from it. And then you kind of go to the other side and become appreciative, hopefully, and.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  I think I needed to do some other stuff, like outside of it. And it's been a number of years. And I've done all these, these different things. Some have been seen more widely than others. Um, but I've done enough of them now that I don't just feel.

• 36:44Josh Horowitz?

  Defined by this one.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  That character.

• 36:46Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  And of course I'll always be asked about him and I'll always be yelled at in the street, hopefully. Well, I won't always. There'll be a point where people aren't. And I'll be like, well, what happened? What happened? But, um. As long as they're yelling it in the street, this is the amazing, I genuinely find this amazing. That like, I'll get like a 20 year old yell it. And I'm like, you just watched his show? He's like, yeah, man, just came. And you're like, that's wicked. It's still got a life. It's still, people are still watching it. That's amazing. In our, in our, in our, in our world now where things are like.

• 37:19Josh Horowitz?

  Next, yeah.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Onto the next. People are watching that still. That's incredible.

• 37:22Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Um, I rewatched that like famous table read of the final episode where you legit didn't, you, you deprived yourself of knowing. The end until that moment.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, to this day, I can't remember whether that was laziness or was. Like, I don't know whether, I think I didn't, I intentionally didn't because I wanted to hear it.

• 37:43Josh Horowitz?

  It's amazing to watch you react in real time and connect with Amelia across.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:47Josh Horowitz?

  The table. I mean, do you remember what, I mean, I guess we can see it on your face.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  Remember telling everyone stupidly when I walked in, I was like, I haven't read it. I was like, I haven't read it because I want to hear it. And then they were like, oh, you see all the BTS guys going, okay, well, let's get this footage. And then all the focus was on me. I was like, what the, I, you know, but I, yeah, it was, um.

• 38:08Josh Horowitz?

  But there's something sweet about seeing like your authentic.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:12Josh Horowitz?

  Like sadness and reckoning.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  Everything to us by then. It was like, the characters were everything to us and the, and the story was everything. So. A gut punch like that, as gut punches it was for everyone else was, was kind of even.

• 38:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Even bigger for us, I think.

• 38:27Josh Horowitz?

  So the, the famed spinoff is, is not happening, but you went down that road. You, you, I mean, it sounds like you went down it for a while. How close did it come to, come to happening? I mean.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think. We we developed it for, we were developing it for two, two years or so.

• 38:45Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  And I still think there's a world in which something could work. I wouldn't have gone into it in the first place if I didn't. Um, but I was very insistent at the start and and they were as well, HBO and and George of like, if this doesn't, if we didn't find the right thing, let's not do it.

• 39:02Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 39:03Speaker 01

  It's a much, much better we don't. And um, after a little while of, of thinking about it, we. I it I kind of was me when I look, I I think, I think this isn't quite the right.

• 39:15Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, you wanna either feel it. You don't wanna go into that.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I'm right, I think I was right because I, like we discussed before, I've gone and done all these other things. And now I feel more comfortable with.

• 39:27Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  That character and that world again in in in where it sits in my life.

• 39:31Josh Horowitz?

  Totally. Um, in terms of finding opportunities during that run, was it tough for you to kind of like, cause you're you're, it's a, that was a big job. It took up a lot of just space in your life.

• 39:43Josh Horowitz?

  In retrospect, when you look at the things that you took, the the Pompeys, et cetera, like trying to find the best material possible. I don't know, how do you look back at that? Kind of like what you were prioritizing and what you were able to accomplish in those years?

• 39:57Speaker 01

  I think um, you always have during the the my twenties, during the Game of Thrones years, you had six months on.

• 40:05Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  And six months off. And and within that six months off window, you had to find something that actually fit in that.

• 40:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  Time and that wasn't other TV because you weren't allowed to do that.

• 40:16Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Um, so it was either a play.

• 40:19Josh Horowitz?

  Which you did a lot of.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  You did a lot of.

• 40:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  Or it was a film and um, I'm really, I'm always proud of everything I've done, genuinely.

• 40:28Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  There were some that worked and some that maybe didn't. Um, but uh, they all taught me something. Um, and I have distinct wonderful memories of Pompeii, like and I think. There are a lot of people who come up and go, I I love Pompeii.

• 40:45Josh Horowitz?

  Great.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  And and probably a lot of people who don't. But I I I sort of, I um, I have fond memories of of it, but you had to fit something, you had to find something to fit into that window. And it's, and that's not always like easy to find the kind of, it was all a big learning experience, really.

• 41:02Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 41:03Speaker 01

  But I was sort of like a hit, a kind of weird hero character then.

• 41:06Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Well, the theater especially was, it seems interesting. And I tell you, I wasn't able to see you do like Dr. Faustus and True West, which is one of my all time favorite productions.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  True West was wonderful.

• 41:16Josh Horowitz?

  And you did one of the alternate, you did the alternating roles.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  No, we didn't. No, no, no. Okay, no, I was Austin.

• 41:21Josh Horowitz?

  And Johnny.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  Johnny was Lee.

• 41:22Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Special piece of material, I would imagine, like to just like own the stage with one other actor with that much material.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  Not to link it back, but I am gonna link it back to Telltale Cities here, because I think there is a link between those two pieces. And I think it's, it's always interesting when a writer does this. But in in um. Uh, True West, Sam Shepard.

• 41:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  Both those characters are him. They they, he's clearly split his personality between the writer.

• 41:53Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  The sozzled writer and the and the crazy guys trying to put, he split his personality and he's writing two versions of him, Sam Shepard. And Dickens does the same in Telltale Cities, is that both Darnay and Carton. Dickens at the time was having an affair with a younger woman. He had many affairs, I think, but at the time he was really infatuated with this younger woman. And I believe that Sidney and Darnay are two versions of Dickens.

• 42:20Josh Horowitz?

  Makes sense.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  There's the sozzled, shameful, guilt written nihilist.

• 42:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  Side, which is his, his side, thinking about him having an affair and this younger woman. And then there's a heroic kind of.

• 42:32Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  French aristocrat Darnay, who he sort of wants himself to be. And I think there is, I think there's something fascinating in in Telltale Cities, that it's, it's two versions of Dickens he's writing. That's why they're doppelgangers.

• 42:45Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, if you wrote the Kit Harrington biopic, it would be the extra and the guy in the cupboard. That's the, they're both him.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  That's my next film.

• 42:53Josh Horowitz?

  Right. I'm giving you some source material.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  All the films just in a cupboard, it's cheap.

• 42:59Josh Horowitz?

  Small sets. Um.

• 43:03Josh Horowitz?

  You end up in the Marvel Universe in an abbreviated fashion, who knows what the the future holds. But when you look back at that. Like, how did that, how was that presented to you? Was there a full plan for your character that Kevin Feige presented when it came up?

• 43:18Speaker 01

  I met Kevin for a general a while before that came up and he was, he said, look, we really love to find something. And then, and then it, yeah, it was presented as in like, this is, you know, how they do in the Marvel Universe. They'll, they'll throw a character in and then. See if it goes anywhere or see if like they introduce him here and um, and in the end it it didn't. And I think that that's always the, that's always the the way of things is that they, they're sort of testing to see if it. If there's something they wanna play with. And there was always the idea it might.

• 43:51Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  I think he's a really interesting character.

• 43:54Josh Horowitz?

  Totally.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  He's one of, he's a fascinating, and talking of addiction and all that, I think there's something fascinating to play with the Black Knight. And I felt this from the start that. The Ebony Blade is is one that he uses and then gets bloodlust.

• 44:05Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  And I think there's an, there's an interesting story of someone going from hero to villain.

• 44:10Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  There. So, you know, anyone from Marvel watching, but I I I do think it's a fascinating, it could be a fascinating um. Story, but they got so much.

• 44:21Josh Horowitz?

  They got a lot.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:22Josh Horowitz?

  Was, but I mean, there was talk at some point, like this Midnight Suns idea, was that ever communicated to you that like you would be in a film with Mahershala?

• 44:31Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 44:33Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  But there were all sorts of ideas that might, but nothing solid ever kind of um, communicated, no.

• 44:40Josh Horowitz?

  Were you ever, there were, there was one rumor even, I think that predated that, that like you were on the list for for Batman. Every actor, every actor plays Hamlet or Batman at some point and they're like.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  I love these lists. I love these lists of like.

• 44:53Josh Horowitz?

  It's a good list to be on.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I.

• 44:56Josh Horowitz?

  As far as you know, were you on a list?

• 44:58Speaker 01

  I think I met someone early on, but I think it was like, when I heard it was Robert Pattinson, I was like, yeah, of course. That's who you should go for. But you did have a meeting, it sounds like. Uh, I can't, you know what?

• 45:10Josh Horowitz?

  How do you forget that you had a meeting about Batman?

• 45:12Speaker 01

  No, I genuinely, I can't, I feel like I I'm I'm trying to wrap my brain. There was some meeting in LA at some point. You have a lot of meetings about other things.

• 45:20Josh Horowitz?

  Sure. I would, in my diary, wrote, I met about Batman.

• 45:23Speaker 01

  Maybe this is why I didn't get the job. So I was like, what's this job for again? It's what?

• 45:28Josh Horowitz?

  He lost his parents, his kid, that's horrible. That's a lot of trauma.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  God, that sounds like a great idea. You guys should, you guys should stick with, you should stick with that. That guy.

• 45:40Josh Horowitz?

  Um, you mentioned, we mentioned at the outset, uh, industry, that's gotta be a a gift to jump into something like that. Were you a fan of industry before you joined?

• 45:49Speaker 01

  I loved it. I still love it. I think it's, I think it's brilliant. Um, it's one of the funnest jobs I've ever done.

• 45:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  It has a really very fond place in my, in my heart. Um, and I'm still filming it. Uh, sort of now, like we're in the final season.

• 46:06Josh Horowitz?

  Right, it's the final season, right? We know that for sure, I guess.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, and um, and I think it's gonna be cracking. Yeah, I I I I, Mickey and Con, I think that they are. Just insanely talented writers.

• 46:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  Um, much, much smarter than any of us.

• 46:21Josh Horowitz?

  It must be security also in like jumping into something that like you already know works.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 46:26Josh Horowitz?

  And just like your job is just to fit in and not muck up the rest, rest of it in a way.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Big duty though. Like I remember coming in and especially as a fan of it and they had done two seasons and I came in in the third and I was like. I could ruin a show that I like. Because, because I'm coming in, uh, uh, sort of, I've muscled my way into this show. Well, I didn't quite, but I got invited in, but also was thrilled to be there. But like, was like, I could really mess this up.

• 46:55Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  And that would be horrible. That might be a career ender for me personally. I like, if I come into a show I like and. So actually, the pressure was much higher than.

• 47:04Josh Horowitz?

  Interesting, that makes sense, yeah. Well, now hopefully you're not gonna mess up Harry Potter, cause I know that's near and dear to you.

• 47:09Speaker 01

  Very dear.

• 47:10Josh Horowitz?

  Like, like this is legit. You are hardcore Harry Potter all the way.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  I am, yeah, I am. I, and I'll tell you why, which is that I was when I was a kid. And then I found a place for it as an adult, and I know a lot of people have this, which is that I listen to the Stephen Fry audiobooks. And I do that because I'm, I I have a, my brain is incredibly busy, uh, especially at night. And I've always found going to bed very difficult, like and my brain doesn't turn off. And um, when I got sober. That got especially bad.

• 47:44Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  And um, and so I started listening to Harry Potter audiobooks and now they're the thing I listen to every night and they just help me. So they, they have a very special place in my heart. And and when I knew they were doing this show. I was, I think that's a brilliant idea. I think they can really delve into it further than the films did. And I think um. I I I'm I'm fully supportive of it and then got a call to be in it and that was just a very simple kind of, yes, please.

• 48:11Josh Horowitz?

  And this character, Gilderoy Lockhart.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  Now, we talk about who they're, what they're addicted to, he's addicted to himself.

• 48:17Josh Horowitz?

  Right. I mean, a very vain character.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  He's just a tiny step to my left. It's not a, it's not a hard.

• 48:26Josh Horowitz?

  Finally, we're seeing the true kit. This is gonna be the.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  It's just there. All I have to do is just take a.

• 48:32Josh Horowitz?

  Four percent to the.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'm there.

• 48:35Josh Horowitz?

  Have you started to get into kind of like the look, like how to kind of approximate?

• 48:39Speaker 01

  Um, yes, and and and I'm gonna say very little about anything because it's um, it's highly secretive. Um, but uh, but yes, it's, I'm I'm, I'm engaging with that as we, as we speak.

• 48:51Josh Horowitz?

  So that's gonna be a trip for you, like to step in onto those sets and that world, even for like, yeah, I've been on Game of Thrones, I've been on Marvel sets, like. That's gonna be.

• 49:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:00Josh Horowitz?

  Crazy.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. I think so, especially as I'm a bit of a nerd for it.

• 49:04Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  And um, and I love it like I do and um.

• 49:08Josh Horowitz?

  Have you sorted yourself? Where are you at?

• 49:10Speaker 01

  Have I what?

• 49:11Josh Horowitz?

  Sorted yourself? What, what house are you in?

• 49:13Speaker 01

  Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, I'm Gryffindor.

• 49:14Josh Horowitz?

  You're Gryffindor?

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, obviously.

• 49:16Josh Horowitz?

  You, you, you're like, that's the most insulting question you could possibly ask. I'm not Slytherin, Josh, asshole.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gryffindor, so.

• 49:26Josh Horowitz?

  So just back, just back off. Have you been to Wizarding World? Where are you at, at theme parks?

• 49:31Speaker 01

  No, I haven't done that. Okay, there's, there's a line.

• 49:36Josh Horowitz?

  Not a theme park guy generally?

• 49:37Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no. I, I, I just think I, I'm sure there's some Game of Thrones, Harry Potter crossover. And I think if I ended up at a theme park, it might get a bit intense.

• 49:51Josh Horowitz?

  Where, where are you at in terms of that's going to take up, I would imagine a bit of your time, you're a dad, which takes up, I would imagine probably most of your time.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  Yes, as it should do. Yeah.

• 50:00Josh Horowitz?

  It should. So, um, changing, obviously this is the cliche, but it's true. It changes your priorities in terms of like where you're going to work, how you're going to work, et cetera. Um, what are you, I don't know, what are you looking for work wise right now? Or do you feel like you're sorted in terms of like?

• 50:16Speaker 01

  I feel like I'm sorted. What I was looking for work wise was something that would be close to home.

• 50:24Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  So I could be a dad.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  More because I've struggled this year and I've been away a lot.

• 50:32Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  And, uh, Harry Potter came along, um, which films down the road from me. So I, I, I get to be a dad. I get to go and play in a world I love.

• 50:44Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 50:44Speaker 01

  I, I genuinely right now, I, I'm, I'm very content.

• 50:48Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:49Josh Horowitz?

  Enjoying being, being a dad. This is.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And, and that's the main job and always should be the main job. So.

• 50:56Josh Horowitz?

  Do you read them stories? Are you like?

• 50:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I do. Yeah. Yeah. We have, um, we have wonderful voices we put on and I really perform them.

• 51:04Josh Horowitz?

  They're very lucky. They've got two very talented performers as parents that can just do all the voices, I would imagine.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  We compete though. This is, this is a problem. Rose, step off. I've got this wrong. It's like you'll get, my boy will be like, um, I want mommy to read me a book tonight. I'm like, really? You want mommy?

• 51:19Josh Horowitz?

  Wow.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 51:22Josh Horowitz?

  I'll do better tomorrow. I can try. I can, what do you need?

• 51:25Speaker 01

  All the big, no? Okay.

• 51:27Josh Horowitz?

  What's your wheelhouse? What's your, in terms of the voices that you do that versus Rose?

• 51:32Speaker 01

  I go big. I go really big until I'm sort of shouting and they're like asking me to be a bit quieter.

• 51:39Josh Horowitz?

  It sounds like story time.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  Daddy, my ear.

• 51:41Josh Horowitz?

  It's really more for you than for them.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  But they'll talk in the middle. The trouble about having actors as parents is that they'll be like, daddy, don't you, no, no, no, no, no. I'm, I'm just in the middle of the, uh, just one second because I was doing the elephant. So in a second.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Like, yeah, that's going to be their enduring memories. Like daddy gave a performance.

• 52:04Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Daddy, daddy wanted a second take.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  And we had to listen.

• 52:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 52:10Josh Horowitz?

  It's a good problem to have.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:11Josh Horowitz?

  It's nice. Okay. We're going to end with this happy sad confused profoundly random questions for you, Kit. Uh, dogs or cats?

• 52:19Speaker 01

  Dogs.

• 52:21Josh Horowitz?

  Do you collect anything?

• 52:24Speaker 01

  I mean, I feel like I do, but what do I?

• 52:30Speaker 01

  No.

• 52:30Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. That's fair. That's fair. Do you have, we talked video games before. Is there a favorite video game of all time ultimately?

• 52:38Speaker 01

  The Nintendo sixty four James Bond.

• 52:40Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, yeah.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:41Josh Horowitz?

  Like the GoldenEye?

• 52:42Speaker 01

  GoldenEye. Yeah. Yeah. Comes up a lot.

• 52:44Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 52:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:45Josh Horowitz?

  Wait, didn't you also do like a Call of Duty thing? You did the?

• 52:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. I was in, yeah. I did that for my brother because he's a big Call of Duty.

• 52:53Josh Horowitz?

  Correct. You enjoy the mocap? Was that?

• 52:54Speaker 01

  He just wanted to kill me in a video game. So we did.

• 52:57Josh Horowitz?

  Here's my gift to you.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:01Josh Horowitz?

  Dakota Johnson asked me, I ask everybody, would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt?

• 53:09Speaker 01

  Bee in the butt?

• 53:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, correct. Um, what's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 53:14Speaker 01

  It's my mom.

• 53:17Josh Horowitz?

  Last actor you were mistaken for?

• 53:20Speaker 01

  I'm always confused with Christopher Abbott.

• 53:24Josh Horowitz?

  Really?

• 53:24Speaker 01

  But I feel like he's a better looking version.

• 53:26Josh Horowitz?

  Please.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:27Josh Horowitz?

  I think he's coming in here in like two weeks. We'll see. Yes.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  You'll be like, who? Feel like who's that?

• 53:36Josh Horowitz?

  What's the worst another director has ever given you?

• 53:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  Was that good?

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:46Josh Horowitz?

  Doesn't feel good.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it doesn't feel good now.

• 53:50Josh Horowitz?

  In the spirit of happy sad confused, an actor who always makes you happy when you see them on screen?

• 53:54Speaker 01

  Oh gosh. Oh, that's too soppy to say that. Um.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  I was going to say Harry Melling because he does.

• 54:05Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, he's great.

• 54:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:06Josh Horowitz?

  Great. Movie that makes you sad?

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Oh my God. Uh, oh, oh, oh, oh. It was that one with, I've forgotten all the names.

• 54:19Josh Horowitz?

  It's okay.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  It's the one about the, the, the man who meets his parents at the same age he is.

• 54:27Josh Horowitz?

  Wait, Back to the Future? No.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 54:30Josh Horowitz?

  Never cried back to the future. Back to the future two?

• 54:36Speaker 01

  No, you know, the one with, um, Andrew Scott.

• 54:38Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, yeah. All of us strangers.

• 54:40Speaker 01

  All of us strangers. Yeah. I wept like a baby during that.

• 54:43Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. I mean, Back to the Future also.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  And Back to the Future two.

• 54:48Josh Horowitz?

  And a food that makes you confused. You don't get it. Why do people eat that kit?

• 54:53Speaker 01

  Either, either, uh, celery or licorice or, um, or like chocolate lava cake.

• 55:03Josh Horowitz?

  Just too much.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  No, that's what I don't like. Like, like any sort of fruit with chocolate.

• 55:08Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, okay.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  I don't understand, like berries and chocolate, like chocolate ghetto, like.

• 55:12Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  That, that.

• 55:14Josh Horowitz?

  Keep them separate. Yeah. Each fine, but combined.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  Together. No.

• 55:18Josh Horowitz?

  I, on the celery front, I get it. I don't see the point. It's just.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  Basically, if you mix anything with chocolate.

• 55:22Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  Like if you mix like orange or like raspberry or any fruit.

• 55:27Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  That's not a nut.

• 55:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 55:29Speaker 01

  With chocolate, do one.

• 55:31Josh Horowitz?

  Never seen you so agitated.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  I didn't realize I felt that strongly about it.

• 55:36Josh Horowitz?

  We've discovered something here today. Um, okay. Full circle. Back to the pointed hand. Congratulations on The Tale of Two Cities. It's on MGM plus, uh, well worth checking out. Everybody should check it out. Support kit as always. Um, I'm so happy this happened. I really appreciate you taking the time, especially because you haven't done a lot of this. So it's all the more meaningful. Uh, keep killing it and come back anytime.

• 55:58Speaker 01

  Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

• 56:00Josh Horowitz?

  Thanks, dude.

• 56:02Speaker 02

  And so ends another edition of Happy Sad Confused. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't. Should do this by Josh.

• 56:20Speaker 02

  Do you ever watch a TV show set in a historical time period and think, how accurate is this really? But also, does it matter if it's accurate or not? Nefertv is a new podcast about shows set in ancient times.

• 56:35Speaker 02

  This season, we're recapping every episode of the show Spartacus, Blood and Sand. I'm Ann Foster and I have never seen this show before. And I'm Gina Berry and I have watched this show maybe too many times. Join us every other Monday on the Nefertv podcast as we discuss the real history behind Spartacus, Blood and Sand. Follow Nefertv. That's N E F E R T V, wherever you get your podcasts.