Guillermo del Toro, Vol. IV

We throw around words like visionary but Guillermo del Toro is a real one. He joins Josh to talk about his ultimate passion project, FRANKENSTEIN, and everything from his lost JUSTICE LEAGUE DARK film, to the time Tom Cruise almost starred in PACIFIC RIM. UPCOMING EVENTS Walker Scobell 12/19 in NYC -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Tickets here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 0:59Speaker 02

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now.

• 1:07Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Today on the show, Guillermo del Toro. For the fourth time, a returning champion, talking all things Frankenstein, and much, much more. Thanks, guys, as always, for checking out the podcast, whether you're watching on YouTube, or Spotify, or listening, whatever podcast platform you're using, I appreciate you guys. Hit that subscribe button if you haven't already. And maybe check out our Patreon. Now is a really good time. Patreon.com/happy sad confused. You get the early access and discount codes to live events, early access to every single podcast we do here, bonus materials, merch, autographed posters, and some other really special treats just for the holiday season that we've cooked up for you guys.

• 1:52Josh Horowitz?

  So it's honestly probably as good a time or better than ever to check out the Patreon. Patreon.com/happy sad confused. Okay, we're gonna get to Guillermo. Not much preamble is needed, because we all know and love what Guillermo del Toro has contributed to film in his remarkable career. This conversation, as always with him, it's kind of a masterclass in filmmaking and film history. We certainly dive deep into Frankenstein, and why this has been such a passion project for him, and how it came to be, and why it is so personal on a familial level to him. But we also touch on some really cool, fun stuff like Justice League Dark, which we've talked about before, but never in this much detail.

• 2:35Josh Horowitz?

  I don't think I've ever heard him talk about these key sequences that he was gonna do in the film. Sounds really cool. We talk Blade, we talk a possible musical version of Pan's Labyrinth. We talk about Superman. Some other really interesting comic book stuff came up in this one. Yeah, if you love Guillermo, if you love, you know, genre filmmaking, this episode is for you. And if you listen to this podcast or watch it, yeah, Guillermo del Toro is why we're all here, right, guys? Okay, without any further ado, check out Frankenstein. I'm sure you have already, but check it out if you haven't already on Netflix. It's right there for you and enjoy my conversation with one of the best. It's Guillermo del Toro.

• 3:18Josh Horowitz?

  The one and only Guillermo del Toro back on the podcast. This is your fourth time on Happy Sad Confused, my friend.

• 3:24Speaker 04

  I know.

• 3:25Josh Horowitz?

  One more, you get a free hat. Five timer club gets hats.

• 3:31Speaker 04

  I hope you have one on my size.

• 3:34Josh Horowitz?

  One size fits all. Congratulations, man. I've really thoroughly enjoyed this one. I've seen it three times. I've had Mia on the show, Jacob on the show, so we obviously had to have you on. Talk to me a little bit about this project. Look, every Guillermo del Toro film is a passion project. You don't do jobs just to do them, but this one goes back to childhood. Give me a sense of like, put me in your shoes because you've dreamed of this project for 50 plus years, and now it is concretized. You can never change it, Guillermo. It's done. You have made your Frankenstein. And that's, that's a complicated thing, isn't it?

• 4:11Speaker 04

  It is complicated. I mean, the fact is partially is a great joy. Most of it is a great joy, but there is, you know, there's a line in the movie that says, having reached the end of the earth, there was no more horizon left and the achievement felt unnatural. You know, that's exactly how I feel somehow.

• 4:36Speaker 04

  Everything has shifted in my life, really, you know? This movie is.

• 4:43Speaker 04

  Sort of reaching, you know, you're saving images, ideas, people, thoughts, recourses, or when I make Frankenstein.

• 4:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 4:56Speaker 04

  I'm gonna use this person, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna try this. And then you do it, and you're at the top of the mountain that you wanted to to scale, you know, and climb. And then you, then you look and you, you do feel a postpartum depression of sorts, you know?

• 5:17Josh Horowitz?

  Worse.

• 5:17Speaker 04

  So it's a mixture of the great joy of seeing how it connects with people, especially young people that are seeing it three, four, five times more. It's great to see that it's connecting in the way that the original connected, the original movie connected with me, you know?

• 5:36Josh Horowitz?

  And this, I was gonna say, this will be their Frankenstein for a generation. I mean, Yugi, you're cognizant of that, I'm sure, like, just like, you know, when I was growing up, Coppola's Dracula, it was kind of like, that was my, my Dracula, and it's embedded in my memory. And that's a privilege to, to be able to imprint that on the generation.

• 5:56Speaker 04

  It is, I think that Pinocchio and this one, for some people, it'll be the one they grew up with.

• 6:02Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 6:03Speaker 04

  That is really great. And, and the journey really takes 50 years. I mean, it's not just a way of talking about it. I saw the original movie at seven and read the book at 11. And when I read the book at 11, I, I was already doing super eight films. I started at age eight.

• 6:22Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 6:22Speaker 04

  And I really thought candidly, I, I thought, I'm gonna make this movie. I'm gonna make the movie of the book, which frankly, over 50 years, I've read the book innumerable times, I've written prologues and introductions to several editions in Britain, in America, The Annotated Frankenstein, The Penguin Frankenstein, so on and so forth. And you become... Fused my biography with Mary Shelley's biography, my concerns with what I know about the romantics. It's become a religion. I mean, it really is a spiritual journey that starts at seven. I discovered my Messiah and the creature, Boris Karloff.

• 7:06Speaker 04

  And then I see Jacob coming to my set, fully made up. And I grabbed his hand and I did this on my head. You know, is the gesture, where the gesture came from in the screenplay, you know?

• 7:23Speaker 04

  So something goes away, something goes away. And it's almost bereavement. And at the same time, a birth. So it's very strange.

• 7:33Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, it's closing a chapter. It's beginning a new one. It clearly feels like that. And look, this, like many of your projects, we've talked about probably Frankenstein many times, and it came close several times. I mean, if this, if this happens 15 years ago, Universal, obviously it's a different cast. But beyond just casting, is there, structurally, is it much different? I mean, what's the biggest difference between that version of Frankenstein and the one that we see today?

• 7:56Speaker 04

  You know, and you tend to think of yourself when you're younger, you tend to think of yourself as Victor thinks of himself, somebody that something happened to, somebody that wants to talk about the creature in an almost saintly way. And Victor doesn't have a past. I like the generational pain aspect of the movie. The fact that you, you talk not only as a child of someone, but as a father of someone, which came in the last 15 years for me. So I would have had a different perspective. I wanted to talk about fathers and sons.

• 8:41Speaker 04

  I always wanted to talk about Victor's tale and the creature's tale. That was always there. But, you know, in a way, you find out after 50, 55, you, you take a more active role in being the antagonist of your own movie.

• 8:56Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 8:57Speaker 04

  You know, like you're more aware that things rarely happen to you, that you, you can actively start them and you can actively stop them if you're sort of examining your own life. And I think it's a more reflective movie.

• 9:20Speaker 00

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• 9:50Speaker 05

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• 10:23Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, the themes of parents and children, fathers and sons is not something you're a stranger to. You've obviously explored this throughout your career. You know, we've talked about your parents, especially your father. I believe both of your parents have passed in relatively recent years. So, I mean, is this the first film you've made since both of your parents have passed? And is it significant? I mean, obviously, this film is so rooted in being especially a father-son story. To not have your dad around, to have this out in the world, just give me a sense of your emotions around that.

• 10:56Speaker 04

  Well, you know, fortunately, my dad and I were really, really good for most of my life, you know? I went to the... Turmoils of adolescence, which is the only time where you are willing unable to tell the truth as you feel it. Uh, people say, oh, they're going through a a difficult phase. No, it's actually very clear.

• 11:22Josh Horowitz?

  It's the truthful phase. It's like when you're unvarnished, you can't control your emotions.

• 11:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, you say, why not?

• 11:28Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 11:28Speaker 04

  So we went through that and, you know, we loved each other very much. And we had great moments together. So I'm at peace. I'm at peace. I think he understood what I did. I understood where he came from. It's a very difficult generation.

• 11:45Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 11:46Speaker 04

  The generation before us was, had it very tough. So, you know, that was, I think we, we closed that chapter. My mother uh, was revealed to me to be a big mystery, you know? I always thought I knew her better. And then the more I thought about it and the more I, I would have loved at any rate to have her back for many years to talk about things I've only now understand after making the movie this. You know, I say this repeatedly for everyone else, and I said it yesterday. For everyone else, you make a filmography for yourself. You make a biography.

• 12:27Josh Horowitz?

  Yes, yes. I mean.

• 12:30Speaker 04

  It's your life.

• 12:31Josh Horowitz?

  Well, I think it's also very telling, I think, upon my rewatches. Like, one of the first words the creature speaks is Victor in anger. And certainly the last word, if not the last words, he says is, is Victor in love and forgiveness. And that, that is truly, it seems like the journey of the film, the path from, from anger to acceptance and forgiveness.

• 12:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, and also there's something beautiful, structural in the screenplay where uh, Victor says, say it like you said it in our past, when it meant the world to you. And, and the creature accepts the world at the end. You know, it really is a, it's, to me, the best movies I have made in terms of fulfilling a desire to tell a parable.

• 13:22Speaker 04

  You know, have this succinct, direct way of addressing an emotion or an experience. You know, as a storyteller, you cannot pretend to have wisdom. Because I don't think anybody quite has that. You know, only religious texts and philosophical texts. But art can aspire to share an experience.

• 13:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 13:49Speaker 04

  And I think that's what the movie is very strong about is. I think movies need, people talk about all sorts of things movies need. They need to be in this place, or they need to be of this scale. And they need, you know, they need emotion.

• 14:04Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 14:05Speaker 04

  And I, and I think the movie transmits that emotion very clearly to the people that are open and willing to accept it.

• 14:12Josh Horowitz?

  Do you think it's safe to say you've always had a fascination with the cruelty men can do to each other, especially those closest to us? It seems like that's something that does recur in your work and of how we can be monsters to each other, how we can tear each other apart.

• 14:28Speaker 04

  I think that is, in a mammalian society, is almost inevitable. You know, but, but it's not that it, that it happens is not bad. That it happens and is never examined. That it happens in a way that exonerates us of any responsibility. That is really tremendous. I mean, I think that you can, you're gonna, you're territorial. You are a hunter, you're a gatherer, you're, there's things in our nature ingrained in the DNA that are gonna lead to conflict. But if you, if you're at least aware of it and you're present for it and accountable for it. I think that's interesting.

• 15:11Josh Horowitz?

  Does, does making a film about mortality in a way make you any less afraid or preoccupied with mortality and death? Not to, not to get morbid, but.

• 15:22Speaker 04

  No, I think, I think it's not morbid at all. I think, you know, I'm a big fan of death. I'm a big fan of it existing. I, I, I actually, somebody asked me, what, if you had a superpower, what, what would it be? And I said, to have a button where I can turn myself off. I would, I would, you know, without any guilt or a preoccupation. I think that. If you have a house made of diamonds, then they're not precious.

• 15:52Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 15:52Speaker 04

  If you have a life that is eternal, then it's not precious. The fact that life is finite and it ends, it makes it really valuable.

• 16:03Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 16:04Speaker 04

  You know?

• 16:05Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, can we talk a little bit about specifically casting on this one? So I alluded to the fact that this has gone through different permutations. You know, back in the day, perhaps it would have been Doug Jones. Right? More recently, it very much was Andrew Garfield up until two months prior, essentially.

• 16:25Josh Horowitz?

  You must have been very far down the road of creature design, et cetera, like fixing it to Andrew. Was his, did you ever get into like kind of performance? Do you have a sense of what his take on the creature would have been that would have been distinct from Jacobs?

• 16:38Speaker 04

  No, I think that it would have been completely different. I mean, the tools we were discussing, child developmental stages and Buto and this and that, they were the tools what we used.

• 16:48Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 16:49Speaker 04

  But I think that there is purity to that Jacob has accessing the innocence and the fury of the creature. That is remarkable. I mean, I think people talk about the vulnerability of a creature a lot. And I agree, it's incredibly heartbreaking. But what impressed me is the pure rage that he can access on the, there's a close up where he kills the wolf and is panting. That is absolutely pure rage. And there's a couple like that in the film where he just reaches that point.

• 17:35Speaker 04

  And when he throws Victor around and, you know, he truly transcends from air to fire to water.

• 17:45Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 17:46Speaker 04

  Elementally, really beautiful. And I think the other thing is.

• 17:53Speaker 04

  I think that Jacob came in and became The Creature. You know, he said to me in the first phone call, uh, this creature is more me than me. He's, he's a man that is used to be judged in a superficial way.

• 18:09Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 18:09Speaker 04

  And people think they know who he is, but he is not only an incredibly deep and serious actor, but you know, he, he feels like the way the world sees him.

• 18:22Josh Horowitz?

  He is misjudged and misunderstood. Yeah, just as The Creature is.

• 18:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, he's articulating that in his life and that is infinitely helpful.

• 18:33Josh Horowitz?

  What is it like though, as, as a filmmaker to kind of like go down a path where like in your mind's eye, you are, you have created a vision with a different cast. I mean, I remember when we were talking Crimson Peak, you had a very, like that was, that was Benedict and it was Emma Stone. And then it's, and then it's switched and this look just often happens. This is not unusual.

• 18:52Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, no, not at all.

• 18:54Josh Horowitz?

  But is, is that, is that something that is discombobulating? Or is that just part of the process at this point that you, you figured out how to kind of?

• 19:01Speaker 04

  No, I remember for a long time, the only Rasputin I saw on Hellboy was Jean Reno. I wanted Jean Reno and I really, really thought he would have been a phenomenal Rasputin. Uh, but Hellboy, I knew there was no movie without Ron Perlman.

• 19:19Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 19:20Speaker 04

  No movie. And that was not negotiable. And I think that, uh, you know, as you, as you go through the permutations, you, you learn to recognize the accident from the opportunity.

• 19:36Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 19:37Speaker 04

  They're similar, but you know, the more you hone your instincts as a filmmaker, you go, no, this is actually better.

• 19:44Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 19:45Speaker 04

  I think in Crimson Peak, the, the invariable, uh, casting was Jessica Heston. I knew that it had to be Jessica.

• 19:57Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 19:58Speaker 04

  No, and I, and I, and I recognized that, that I could not change. That was my north.

• 20:05Speaker 04

  With The Creature, I, I really, uh, I really thought, well.

• 20:12Speaker 04

  Interesting, because my Victor is so solid. My Elizabeth is so solid and my William is so solid that I I'm curious to see who I can find.

• 20:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 20:25Speaker 04

  And and on the same day, my daughter, Kim, and Tesarandos, same day. They said, you have to see Saltburn. And I I I kind of knew the first second I saw that movie and Priscilla.

• 20:44Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 20:45Speaker 04

  Then then I was on on a path to find the guy.

• 20:49Josh Horowitz?

  Is there a point still on every movie where you are convinced it's falling apart? Was there was there a day on Frankenstein where you're like, this just might sink?

• 20:58Speaker 04

  No, not this one, no, not this one. You know, very rarely you find them. But now and then you find movies that take care of themselves.

• 21:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 21:10Speaker 04

  That that you know, they're fighting a fight that is above what you can fight. I mean, you you feel the movie is alive and is willing itself into being. Other movies you have to will every day into being. And and but I I can tell you, for example, Pan's Labyrinth, you have to will it. Nothing was going for it.

• 21:31Josh Horowitz?

  Every day was a struggle.

• 21:32Speaker 04

  It's always a struggle. And it's not that it's a better movie or a worse movie for that. It's just the nature of the project.

• 21:38Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 21:39Speaker 04

  It necessitated every ounce of will. Shape of water kind of willed itself into being, you know.

• 21:47Josh Horowitz?

  Well, you've you've you've talked you've talked about how kind of like realizing to give yourself over to the process. That that, you know, you you can have a vision and exert control. But at some point, the movie is going to tell you what it wants to be. Was that something you discovered pretty early in your career on a specific film or?

• 22:05Speaker 04

  No, no, it starts with, I think, Pan's Labyrinth. I became aware of it a little bit, but I think it's.

• 22:15Speaker 04

  It's more, it's much later.

• 22:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 22:18Speaker 04

  Much later. I think that Pinocchio was key. Shape of Water was key, you know. When Shape of Water was rejected by a lot of people, they were not interested. And my producer said, it's a forty million dollar movie. I said, well, I don't think I can get more than twenty. And he said, you're never gonna be able to make it. And I said, you know what? I disagree. Alejandro Iñárritu said to me,

• 22:52Speaker 04

  a budget is a state of mind. And I said, you know, because we made a movie called Beautiful.

• 22:59Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 22:59Speaker 04

  That was over twenty million dollars, but it looked like a four million dollar indie. And then Alejandro, those vermin for that amount, and it looks like it's fifty.

• 23:11Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 23:12Speaker 04

  And I said, how did you do it? And he said, a budget is a state of mind. And then Shape of Water was the first time I said, we're making it, we're making it the way I think about it. And it's gonna happen, and it happened.

• 23:22Josh Horowitz?

  What does Iñárritu's new one look like? You've gotten a sneak peek at the Tom Cruise one, I'll bet.

• 23:27Speaker 04

  You know, I went, visited on the set. He's gonna show it to Alfonso and I earlier than anybody else. I suspect that I haven't seen anything. I mean, when I was on the set, I absolutely was blown away by what they were doing.

• 23:43Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing. I can't wait. I can't wait to see Tom in his hands. It's gonna be special, I'm sure. So, speaking of Tom Cruise, I have two goals in my life, professional goals. They're not really professional, they're personal goals. Get on Tom Cruise's cake list, which I'm sure you're on. You got the cake.

• 23:55Speaker 04

  I am, yeah.

• 23:56Josh Horowitz?

  Of course you are. Have you gotten it yet this year? Do you know?

• 23:59Speaker 04

  No, you get it a little later.

• 24:01Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, so maybe I made the cut this year. I openly begged him at the most recently, recent Mission Impossible. So we'll see if my begging helped.

• 24:09Speaker 04

  I mean, it used to be a coconut cake.

• 24:12Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 24:12Speaker 04

  Last year was a lemon cake.

• 24:14Josh Horowitz?

  What? Wait, wait, wait, this is breaking news. It's now a lemon cake?

• 24:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was a lemon cake. And it was, mine was vegan.

• 24:22Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, he custom orders it for.

• 24:26Speaker 04

  I know, but it used to be traditionally was just a incredible cacao nut cake.

• 24:31Josh Horowitz?

  He's mixing it up. He's iterating. I love that.

• 24:35Josh Horowitz?

  The other, of course, is one of these days. I'm gonna, I'm just gonna break into the bleak house and see it because I need to see it at some point. Do you have, is there one, is it LA? Is it Toronto? Do you have multiple now? Like, where are you?

• 24:46Speaker 04

  There's two, there's two next to each other in Santa Monica.

• 24:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 24:50Speaker 04

  One is called Carmilla and the other is called Mircala. And they are on the same street. And then there's an apartment in North Hollywood that has part of the collection. And then the rest is, you know, here and there, but, but yeah, no, come over. And, and, and one of the things that we, that I have is, I finally, I was going through my warehouse and I have all the maquettes, the models of the Mountains of Madness on the display in the horror room. So yeah, it's worth it. And, and all the maquettes I did for the Hobbit.

• 25:28Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing. So speaking of, speaking of Mountains of Madness, it feels like more than ever, I mean, thanks to this Netflix collaboration where you're at in your career. You could get that made, couldn't you? Couldn't you really get Mountains of Madness made now? And do you want to?

• 25:42Speaker 04

  Maybe. I mean, I would, I would need to reread the screenplay at this age and see if it still does what it did for me back. Because you, not every movie you wanna do your whole life.

• 25:55Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 25:56Speaker 04

  You know, I read screenplays that I wrote when I was thirty five, thirty six, and I don't wanna make them.

• 26:01Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 26:02Speaker 04

  I'm not, I'm not sure entirely if, if, I, I believe

• 26:10Speaker 04

  the human drama attracts me.

• 26:15Speaker 04

  More and more beyond the parallel.

• 26:17Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 26:18Speaker 04

  I'm very interested in seeing where I go next because I want to go somewhere different. Not necessarily opposite. I mean, the next project is a stop motion of the very gen Ishiguro. And it has ogres and basilisks and dragons and all that. But the center story is an elderly couple, you know, traversing the landscape, looking for their son.

• 26:45Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 26:46Speaker 04

  It's sort of a stop motion, Terry Malick fantasy meditation. I mean, if you know Ishiguro.

• 26:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 26:55Speaker 04

  It's all about memory and regret.

• 26:58Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing.

• 26:58Speaker 04

  Yeah. This is what he does.

• 27:01Josh Horowitz?

  And the other one, I spoke to Oscar a little bit last night. Hopefully you guys are going to get together again. And that's how, I mean, anytime you invoke my dinner with Andre and murder, I'm there. That's the log line. That's the pitch.

• 27:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, it's curious because it's really, you're going to journey with two characters. And you're going to understand how they were meant to exist in the same space, but they hate each other.

• 27:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 27:32Speaker 04

  And how they learn that they are basically on the same journey.

• 27:37Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 27:38Speaker 04

  In opposite directions. I mean, that was in Frankenstein. One of the key things I knew is that they Victor completes his process and gives birth to the creature is the day he loses interest in it.

• 27:52Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 27:53Speaker 04

  And the creature is the day, the creature is born is the day the creature discovers the world. So it's like having an 85 year old father that is tired of the world and is a baby blooming for the first time, you know?

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• 28:47Speaker 05

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• 29:19Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, so a bunch of random things for you. We mentioned Tom. Since Mountains of Madness, have you... I mean, he could have done Nightmare Alley. I could see him in Pak Rim. Did you make... Tried to entice him into any of those in the ensuing years?

• 29:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, he was... We were very close to him during Pak Rim.

• 29:37Josh Horowitz?

  Really? Oh, in Stackers? In that... It just rolled?

• 29:41Speaker 04

  Stackers Pentecost, yeah. It was... The idea for me was to see sort of Maverick leading... You know, it was very... We even had a karaoke scene. Yeah, no, it was... And we were this close. But they couldn't make his deal. Something to do with home video, can you believe that?

• 30:06Josh Horowitz?

  Seriously?

• 30:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, seriously. And I... But then we developed The Champions, which was based on the TV series. We developed it together. We've been in contact through the Mission Impossibles and, you know, I went to the editing room on the last one and we have a really good friendship. I would love to work with him, you know? Alejandro said to me...

• 30:36Speaker 04

  He said, hands down, he's the most precise, most dedicated.

• 30:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 30:42Speaker 04

  Most disciplined and great actor. He said, it's like having, uh, you, you go through any terrain.

• 30:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 30:50Speaker 04

  With that guy. And Alejandro came out completely, uh, in love with the, the superhuman dedication, precision. I mean, you, you look at Magnolia.

• 31:02Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, Alzheimer. That's, yeah.

• 31:04Speaker 04

  Or you look at Tropic Thunder, that's the range of the guy.

• 31:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. No, he is, he's stealthily underrated as one of the great, like, he can do comedy, he can do everything. Yeah.

• 31:13Speaker 04

  Anything. I mean, there's range.

• 31:15Josh Horowitz?

  Um, okay, a couple of other random ones. I, I don't know. Sometimes, you know, I feel badly bringing up kind of the ones that, that got away, but like Justice League Dark. I'm always curious about, what was the casting? Cause I've read different things. Was Colin Farrell your Constantine was?

• 31:29Speaker 04

  No, no.

• 31:30Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 31:30Speaker 04

  No, I was not casting yet. I, I, I knew I wanted Doug Jones to be a dead man.

• 31:36Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 31:36Speaker 04

  Only because he was physically, I could do the suit and I know his mannerisms and all that. And no, I, I loved that screenplay.

• 31:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 31:47Speaker 04

  I really, I was in love with that screenplay. I, I thought it, it brought everybody in effortlessly, you know? And, uh.

• 31:57Josh Horowitz?

  Who, who, who was the lead of, of that story? Like, was it a very, obviously it's an ensemble, but who was your protagonist in it?

• 32:03Speaker 04

  It was Con- Constantine.

• 32:04Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 32:04Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, the, and the, and the plot made absolute perfect sense. Like, uh, I, I really loved how they got tangled into, into, you know, we had the Floronic man. Uh, was one of the villains, you know, and it was really, really great because, uh, Swamp Thing was very fleshed out. But everybody, and there was like, uh, there was a moment where Batman came in briefly. You know, it was a, they said, we need a plane. And I said, I know, I know, a friend of mine has a plane. And then you were in Bruce Wayne's office. Obviously. You know, I, I would have loved to have done that. Now I wouldn't, you know? Yeah.

• 32:47Josh Horowitz?

  Has, has James Gunn made a phone call? Has he, I mean?

• 32:49Speaker 04

  No, no, no.

• 32:50Josh Horowitz?

  You know? Just for anything? Just not even Justice League Dark? Just like, no?

• 32:54Speaker 04

  We, we, we talk on the, now and then I write him about something else he's doing right. I think he's really remarkably smart. I, I love the Superman, you know?

• 33:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 33:08Speaker 04

  And I, I, I really enjoyed the way he's viewing the universe.

• 33:13Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 33:14Speaker 04

  But no, I mean, the screenplay is there. It's not like, it's not chitchat. It was a couple of years of development for that screenplay. We never got to the art.

• 33:26Speaker 04

  But it had great set pieces. Yeah. And my, my favorite one was a chase, Devman chasing on long chase, jumping from one body to the next.

• 33:38Josh Horowitz?

  Wow.

• 33:38Speaker 04

  It would be an 80 year old lady in Central Park, running after the antagonist and then jumping into a traffic cop and

• 33:47Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 33:48Speaker 04

  A mounted cop. It was a really interesting, thrilling thing. Yeah.

• 33:54Josh Horowitz?

  Some of these are famous and you've talked about them. We've talked about them. Things like, like Thor, even I think Wolverine came up. But here's one that I've never heard you talk about. Were you offered or talked, did you talk about Man of Steel when that came up? The Superman film?

• 34:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:11Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 34:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:12Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, okay.

• 34:13Speaker 04

  Well, thanks.

• 34:18Josh Horowitz?

  Well, abstractly, is Superman as a character something that you click with? Like, I mean, you said you like James Gunn's

• 34:23Speaker 04

  No, I, I admire what people do with him.

• 34:26Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 34:27Speaker 04

  My, my vibe is dark.

• 34:29Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 34:30Speaker 04

  Like I was, I would do God on my gaslight.

• 34:33Josh Horowitz?

  Right. That's a great one. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 34:36Speaker 04

  That's an easy vibe, or Justice League Dark.

• 34:39Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 34:40Speaker 04

  But I don't know that, I don't know that you can talk about superheroes in a world that is so relative right now. And that's why I admire, when I see James Gunn's Superman, you feel the healing power of goodness from someone that believes in it, like that. I don't, I don't believe in the purity of goodness. I believe that is all, the gray area is very interesting to me.

• 35:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 35:11Speaker 04

  But that was why I loved Victor as much as I love the creature, because I think the journey of Victor is in reverse.

• 35:21Speaker 04

  He reaches innocence and grace at the end.

• 35:24Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 35:24Speaker 04

  And the creature becomes complex. You know, they're going in different directions, but I, I, I don't believe in absolutes.

• 35:33Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 35:34Speaker 04

  And, and that's why I like a band of misfits, like Justice League Dark.

• 35:40Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 35:40Speaker 04

  You know?

• 35:41Josh Horowitz?

  What, what do you, why do you think as someone that, that helmed arguably, not even arguably, but the best Blade film, why can't Marvel crack Blade? Well, if Kevin Feige said to you, I need some help on cracking a Blade movie, what would you say to him?

• 35:53Speaker 04

  I don't know, I mean, you know, the, the key to me, and I said this when I went in, is, was Wesley for me.

• 36:02Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:03Speaker 04

  You know, when you have a guy that lands on a Neil Adams pose every time he's solved, it's a Neil Adams keyframe, you know?

• 36:13Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:14Speaker 04

  Uh, when you have a guy that is dry, dry as sandpaper in his humor, but perfect, perfect, pitch perfect. He would do it like, I can't. And, and you knew exactly what he meant. And, uh, lines like, you do not know who you're fucking with. I mean, and, and, uh, you know, I think that's, that's a key for me. And, and, and when I took the job, uh, uh, because I did say, look, I, I can take care of the villain, because basically it's the creature of Frankenstein for me. And it was a father and a son story already then. And I said, but you take care of the hit.

• 36:54Speaker 04

  I said, because I'm the most unhip human being in the history of mankind. I said, I dance horrible. I don't, I don't know any, I don't know techno for, from anything, you know. I said, you, you help me with the music and the, and the attitude and I'll deliver great action and horror.

• 37:13Josh Horowitz?

  Well, the culture caught up with you. Now what Guillermo del Toro is, is hip. Thankfully, the geeks won, as you well know.

• 37:20Speaker 04

  But I don't know.

• 37:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Did you ever, on the trip?

• 37:24Speaker 04

  I have a hip displacement.

• 37:26Josh Horowitz?

  Close enough. You and me both. The George Miller, Michael Mann, whatever happened, was that a doc? Was it a book? Did you ever sit down with them? I remember years ago, you were talking about really dissecting what they do.

• 37:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, we got COVID and two strikes.

• 37:40Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 37:41Speaker 04

  And, and, and what happened is all the, the, I thought I had a year between two projects. And that evaporated with COVID. And then I was on a calendar that was much faster, you know? But I, I think that, I think, look, I think directors talking to directors is one of the most interesting things for me.

• 38:05Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 38:06Speaker 04

  I do, I do many, many Q and A's with directors on the DGA in L.A.

• 38:12Josh Horowitz?

  I know you're stealing all my gigs, Guillermo. I love them, but you're stealing my work.

• 38:15Speaker 04

  No, what, what I like is you can talk show.

• 38:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 38:19Speaker 04

  And you can actually make, make an audience aware of what goes on in crafting a moment. Everybody uses this word vision. Well, vision is this much. The rest is hard work.

• 38:32Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 38:33Speaker 04

  And you're working with hardware, a piece of track, a camera, a piece of glass that is a lens. And they're vectors. You're creating a collision of vectors and it's really interesting to talk about it.

• 38:48Speaker 04

  The last one I did was with Jim Cameron, the DJ about Avatar, this Avatar. And I love, I love talking shop with directors. I wanted to talk to Michael about so many of the most rousing genre aspects of his film making, because he's a guy that is incredibly grounded on research. He's almost like a guy that, that has to do field work before he writes, but then he takes that and transmute, transmutes it into genre.

• 39:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 39:22Speaker 04

  You know, and, and I, I was talking to Jim about how when CG was birthed briefly after John Sherlock Holmes, a little bit there's on Willow and all that. But T2 and The Abyss. Basically, those are the big footsteps to follow. And I said, one of my most remarkable moments is when, you know, Robert Patrick goes through the bars of the cell.

• 39:51Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 39:52Speaker 04

  But he's

• 39:52Josh Horowitz?

  And he hits it.

• 39:53Speaker 04

  The gun, the gun doesn't.

• 39:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 39:55Speaker 04

  And that's intelligence in staging, because you can provoke an emotion on an audience, but you have to know how you're gonna do it.

• 40:02Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 40:03Speaker 04

  You know, to me, to give you an example on Frankenstein, to me,

• 40:08Speaker 04

  the line I always knew would do something was, there's two. My creator has told his story. Now I will tell you mine and the, and the title.

• 40:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 40:20Speaker 04

  The creature's tail. That was one beat. The other one was when he lights the dynamo and he says, now run. You know, it's like the creature's finally in charge of Victor.

• 40:34Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 40:34Speaker 04

  And, and, but you know, you need to know what the image is gonna be. If it's gonna be low angle, high angle, what, what are you gonna do?

• 40:42Josh Horowitz?

  When you look at the, the, the playing field of all these great young filmmakers coming of age now, who are we going to be talking about the next 10 years? I mean, the Robert Eggers, the Cooglers, the Zach Craigers, who, who's impressing you? Who's exciting?

• 40:55Speaker 04

  I know every, most of them, I love David Lowery.

• 40:58Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 40:59Speaker 04

  With a passion, you know, Eggers, uh, you know, all the, all the young, I mean, they're not teenagers. I'm the sad these, I mean, they're, they're, they're 30s. I don't even know the age.

• 41:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 41:12Speaker 04

  Everybody seems young.

• 41:13Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, well, their films feel like they're like 22 year olds. Like they're so, the energy behind them.

• 41:18Speaker 04

  And you know, when you see Train Dreams or Jockey or Sing, you know.

• 41:23Josh Horowitz?

  Clint Bentley's Greg, yeah, yeah.

• 41:25Speaker 04

  Well, both impressed me a lot. And, and there's precision in their craft.

• 41:30Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 41:31Speaker 04

  You know, I, I thought Train Dreams was beautifully crafted and, and, uh, in a way that evokes Malik, but has, uh, uh, uh, almost like a, uh, it's like an elegiac, um, drum, you know, it has a different pace, it's very funereal, but very deep.

• 41:53Josh Horowitz?

  Well, it is all that, that marriage of all our inspirations and then bringing our, our personal takes on it. And there's nothing new under the sun, but what, but those core ideas you apply to yourself and your own innovation. It's, it's the remixes of, of these myths and tales that we're all ingrained in.

• 42:08Speaker 04

  Well, it's, it's all, I mean, look, how many notes are there? How many letters in the alphabet?

• 42:13Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 42:14Speaker 04

  It's a finite number of them, but they have created all the literature and all the music of every genre in the history of mankind and they can be renewed. The, the printing blocks don't change. What we write with them does.

• 42:30Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 42:30Speaker 04

  And each voice is unique. I mean, I, I, I think when I've said this in the past, when you say to someone, well, my wave, the Sinatra song is based on a French song. Does it sound French to you? Yeah, if you listen carefully, you, you hear the chanson, you know, but

• 42:51Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 42:51Speaker 04

  But it's all Sinatra.

• 42:53Josh Horowitz?

  Here's, here's a random controversial one. Alien or aliens? Where do you come down?

• 42:58Speaker 04

  They're absolutely two different universes. One, one is

• 43:03Josh Horowitz?

  The haunted house versus the act, the ultimate action movie, right?

• 43:06Speaker 04

  Absolutely. I mean, one is a, a war movie. And the other one is basically, yeah, like it's, it's very close, the first one. And Prometheus, both together are very much at the mountains of madness.

• 43:20Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 43:21Speaker 04

  Yeah. A ship lost finds a place where there's an abandoned civilization and a creature that shapeshifts. That was created by blah, blah, blah. And I mean, and then you realize they created mankind. That's mountain of madness. Yeah.

• 43:36Josh Horowitz?

  Are there any of your works that you're actively or, or, or would like to see on the stage? I feel like there was talk of Pan's Labyrinth at one point. Are you, are you involved in any of those? Or, I mean, I don't know.

• 43:48Speaker 04

  We've been working for a decade on the Pan's Labyrinth musical with Paul Williams

• 43:56Speaker 04

  and Gustavo Santolaya. You know, we, we have the ten thongs, including the lullaby that would compose a musical. We have a libretto. And now it's a matter of finding, uh, you know, stage is not something I do normally.

• 44:13Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 44:13Speaker 04

  So I have a good partnership, uh, which will be revealed hopefully soon.

• 44:18Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 44:19Speaker 04

  I mean, if it happens, that's great because I think, uh, next year is, uh, the 20th anniversary of the movie. Yeah.

• 44:28Josh Horowitz?

  Time has no meaning. Okay, we're gonna end with this Guillermo. Our happy second fuse profoundly random questions for you. Uh, are you a dog or cat person?

• 44:35Speaker 04

  Dog, 100%.

• 44:38Josh Horowitz?

  This is the stupidest question, especially for you. I ask everybody, what do you collect? For Guillermo del Toro, that's an hour long conference, five hours.

• 44:46Speaker 04

  You know what is funny is lately with the fires is the third time the fires encroach my collection and I'm gonna let go of a third of it, not all of it. I'm gonna keep, I'm gonna keep the two thirds of it and I'm gonna move it to a place where there's no fires, no natural disasters to preserve it and open it for people to visit because.

• 45:13Josh Horowitz?

  I was gonna say, that makes so much sense to, I mean, the world would love to see a small snippet of what you've collected. I mean, that would be amazing.

• 45:20Speaker 04

  I mean, if you imagine LACMA, when we did that Home with Monsters, we got our, I think, 600,000 visitors and we were exhibiting 500 objects. The collection is 7,000 objects.

• 45:36Josh Horowitz?

  You could open a theme park. You could do, every film of yours could be a different ride. We're just new business ventures, Guillermo. Talk to me.

• 45:43Speaker 04

  And I think it's important to, for younger people to be able to visit and live a collection that hopefully, hopefully inspires a few people into their own stories so that you can continue this chain link of misfits.

• 46:01Josh Horowitz?

  Totally. Okay, a couple more for you quickly. Best video game of all time? The best video game you've ever played? Your favorite?

• 46:07Speaker 04

  The most immersive has to be Bioshock in many ways and Death Stranding.

• 46:15Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 46:15Speaker 04

  I mean, the best universe, Metahuman, Gear Solid. The one I can, one that I'm really good at and love is Left 4 Dead, you know, but I like the big sandbox games like Redemption and, you know, and probably.

• 46:37Speaker 04

  I will go back and some of the God of War ones are just some of the best cinematic experiences I've ever had.

• 46:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 46:47Speaker 04

  That, you know, when, when, uh, when he fights Odin and Odin keeps coming back and he looks like a Peaky Blinders brawler, you know? And, and he did the crap out of, uh, of Kratos, you know? What a, what a great video game. And the way they use, uh, uh, the budget of data on the console to create atmospheric dispersion and, uh, light, the way they light that, that is lit like a film.

• 47:15Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 47:16Speaker 04

  And, and I'm gonna keep going.

• 47:18Josh Horowitz?

  You're good.

• 47:20Speaker 04

  Uh, Shadow of the Colossus.

• 47:22Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 47:23Speaker 04

  Masterpiece. Uh, is like, uh, like both, uh, the best use of, uh, uh, the, the atmospherics and the sandbox, but it's poetic and tragic, you know? I think, um, I mean, there's, it's too many.

• 47:40Josh Horowitz?

  What's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 47:43Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, depends on the day.

• 47:46Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 47:47Speaker 04

  Also, uh, still the Frankenstein now and then.

• 47:49Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. Okay. Who's the last person you were mistaken for? Filmmaker, actor, anybody ever confuse you with anybody else?

• 47:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. Uh, Michael Moore.

• 48:00Josh Horowitz?

  Loved you and Roger and me. Yeah.

• 48:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. I was, I was at Cannes about 10 years ago.

• 48:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 48:11Speaker 04

  I was at Cannes, somebody said, uh, are you coming to the yacht? And I said, well, what? He said, yeah, the party. I said, what party? The, the, uh, the yacht. I said, you think I'm Michael Moore? I said, yeah. I said, no, I'm not.

• 48:24Josh Horowitz?

  Do I still get the invite to the yacht?

• 48:27Speaker 04

  No. Now, now my hope is that, uh, uh, people confuse me with, uh, Russell Crowe in The Pope's Exorcist.

• 48:33Josh Horowitz?

  Well, well, you need the moped. You need the little moped to run around. Yeah, go ahead.

• 48:39Speaker 04

  We got them to be almost the same weight.

• 48:40Josh Horowitz?

  Who would have thunk it?

• 48:42Speaker 04

  Um, thank you, Russell, for...

• 48:45Josh Horowitz?

  Meeting you halfway.

• 48:47Speaker 04

  I like, I like it. Put another shrimp on the barbie.

• 48:50Josh Horowitz?

  That's amazing. And finally, in the spirit of happy, sad confused, an actor who always makes you happy. You see them on screen, you're immediately in a better mood.

• 49:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, Russell Crowe is one. You know, I really, I would watch anything he does.

• 49:06Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 49:07Speaker 04

  I, I, what is, what is the one where he's an angry driver, Verthurk or?

• 49:12Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, that was a COVID movie. I remember that. Yeah, I forget. Yeah, yeah.

• 49:15Speaker 04

  I, I, you know, I, I just love what he, I mean, the good guys, him and Gosling.

• 49:20Josh Horowitz?

  The nice guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 49:21Speaker 04

  The nice guys. Oh, my God, what a, that's, that's a, I mean, him, him, Ryan Gosling is another, Oscar Isaac.

• 49:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 49:30Speaker 04

  You know, I mean, there's so many.

• 49:32Josh Horowitz?

  Movie that makes you sad always?

• 49:35Speaker 04

  Well, there's a movie I can never finish, Make Way for Tomorrow. And, and I know, I know I should, but my heart, I cannot take, I, I always 10, 15 minutes in, I go, today I'm gonna go past, because Orson Welles said, whoever doesn't cry in that movie is made of stone. And I know already, like seeing a, a, a train on a collision course with you, and I just get out of the way. I, I, I know I cannot handle it. But Mexican movies, one called The Black Sheep.

• 50:14Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 50:14Speaker 04

  La Oveja Negra, always gets me.

• 50:17Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 50:18Speaker 04

  And, and, I mean, Mexican drama gets me.

• 50:22Josh Horowitz?

  All right.

• 50:22Speaker 04

  Profoundly, profoundly.

• 50:24Josh Horowitz?

  And finally, a food that makes you confused. You don't get it. Why do people eat that?

• 50:29Speaker 04

  Marmite.

• 50:30Josh Horowitz?

  That's come up. Yeah, that's an all.

• 50:33Speaker 04

  Marmite is top 10. I mean, that and rotting pheasant in the French cuisine. I don't understand those.

• 50:40Josh Horowitz?

  Right. So you're some marmite on your rotting pheasant. Yeah.

• 50:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. And, and, you know, and then, I mean, there's so many, I, I've gone to Japan and China, and they give me the most exotic foods, and I eat them. But marmite.

• 50:59Josh Horowitz?

  More, more horrific than anything Guillermo del Toro has ever created in his films, marmite and rotting pheasant.

• 51:04Speaker 04

  Somebody should explain it to us.

• 51:08Josh Horowitz?

  Thank you, my friend. Look, I love your movies. I love talking to you. I'm so happy my career, the last 20 years, has coincided with the era of Guillermo del Toro, because I value these conversations and this work you've contributed so, so much. You're always the best, man. Congratulations on Frank.

• 51:23Speaker 04

  Always fun, my friend.

• 51:25Josh Horowitz?

  Thank you. Have a good one. I'm sure I'll see you around. Thanks, buddy.

• 51:27Speaker 04

  Oh, you're welcome. Bye, man.

• 51:30Speaker 02

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't supposed to do this by Josh.

• 51:50Speaker 06

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