Chris McCausland: “Dependence is exhausting!” Holidaying with a disability

What ratio of planned activities to spontaneity do you love when you travel? Comedian Chris McCausland has to know some top tier activities have been booked ahead of time. Welcome to The Happy Place Guide To Holidays! In this chat with Fearne – brought to you by British Airways Holidays – Chris explains how holidays have changed since he lost his sight. He thinks hard about everything from communicating in a foreign country, to how dependent he’ll need to be on his loved ones. He also chats about getting into his daughter’s favourite holiday hobby: rollercoasters! Plus, Chris reveals why he reckons being a maths geek has helped him in comedy, and why he initially turned Strictly down a number of times... British Airways Holidays are ATOL protected, offer a 24hr holiday helpline, and allow you to book with a low deposit. All holidays include a generous baggage allowance per person. Go to Ba.com/holidays http://Ba.com/holidays to find out more. Listen to other episodes of The Happy Place Guide To Holidays: Sophie Ellis-Bextor https://pod.fo/e/490ff3 Richard E Grant https://pod.fo/e/301465 Tess Daly https://pod.fo/e/2f8a92 Clara Amfo https://pod.fo/e/30c12c Sara Cox https://pod.fo/e/318d58 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and welcome to the Happy Place Guide to Holidays, brought to you by British Airways Holidays. I'm Fern Cotton and today I'm chatting to Chris McCausland.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  I know it's a joke to go the blind guy goes sightseeing, but I would rather find the enjoyment of other people seeing the things and going to these places. Still, there's value in it and you're all out doing things and the fact that you're moving around and you're, I don't need to, you know, you're all, you're all doing that anyway. Let's go and have some food. We're all out together. I just find that there's less dependence in it, even though you are depending on people to get you around. You're not taking them away from something else to get them to do your thing. I'd much rather do that, to be honest, when I'm on holiday.

• 0:43Fearne Cotton?

  The Happy Place Guide to Holidays is the series where we celebrate the joy of travel and how we can squeeze out every little drop of it when we're away. Now, I wanted to chat to comedian Chris McCausland today because I'm a big fan of his attitude towards holidays. He loves the proper break a holiday gives him, just as long as it's on his terms. We talk about the challenges that Chris faces, having lost his sight, what holiday feels like to him, what he wants out of a holiday, and how he can properly try and switch off his busy brain. We talk about the sensory experiences of a new place, what doing things holiday actually means to him,

• 1:25Fearne Cotton?

  and experiencing holiday magic through your kids' joy. That joy that we get when we experience a holiday with younger people who are going through something for the first time, seeing something, hearing something, experience it for the first time. And we also talk about how adventurous or not he's willing to be with cuisine.

• 2:06Fearne Cotton?

  Chris, how lovely to have you on Happy Place.

• 2:08Speaker 01

  Nice, nice one for having us on these, um, on the, I'm for anyone listening on audio, the hairiest chair I've ever sat on in my life.

• 2:16Fearne Cotton?

  It is like being cuddled by a yeti.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  I can sit here and plat it.

• 2:19Fearne Cotton?

  I know, isn't it lovely? I like a tactile chair.

• 2:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just gonna sit here and stroke it for the next half an hour.

• 2:25Fearne Cotton?

  Absolutely knock yourself out. Go for it. It's so lovely to have you on. There's so many things I want to talk to you about today, but let's start with the obvious, which is happiness. Because we talk about happiness a fair bit on this podcast, as well as mental health and, and life in general. But I read whilst doing a bit of research for this podcast that you, or one of the happiest periods of your life was when you were at college being a maths geek specifically.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  I'd say, well, I mean, I would say that was probably my happiest time of education, right? Because I went to uni and I probably shouldn't have gone to uni. I'm glad I did because I got loads of things out of uni that weren't decent qualifications, you know, friends for life and things like that. But I think for someone who did that whole journey to the end of uni, that, that little period, I think, college, where you get rid of all the crap you don't like and you focus on the things you're good at, but you haven't yet narrowed it down to the point of monotony. Do you know what I mean? Like, university drills it down to such a tedious level that it can make you fall out of love with the things that you thought you liked. So I think college was that kind of middle ground and I enjoyed the things I was learning.

• 3:35Speaker 01

  I wasn't being forced to learn things I didn't like. And also, just you're becoming an adult and you're really getting out and socialising and it was, it was a good time.

• 3:45Fearne Cotton?

  And you loved maths. Maths made sense to you?

• 3:48Speaker 01

  I'm a, yeah, I'm a, I'm a logical geek, which, you know, worked well for me back then. Now, I mean, I would say logical maths geek, you know, very logical minded. I think my, my wife would say emotionally vacuous.

• 4:08Fearne Cotton?

  Can they not be mutually exclusive, that you can have emotions unlike maths?

• 4:11Speaker 01

  No, I don't, I don't, I don't think so. No. I mean, what I saw as a positive has, has been flipped at some point along the journey of my life into quite a negative.

• 4:21Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  It seems to rear its head on every argument.

• 4:24Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, good.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  I didn't realise it was that kind of podcast, but you wanna go down this rabbit hole?

• 4:28Fearne Cotton?

  Don't wanna bring your wife into it. She's not here to defend herself. Maths to stand up is quite some journey. How did you go, did you ever think that you would end up in stand up? Or was it, okay, I'm gonna use maths to, to further my career in, in some way? What, what was that tangent for you?

• 4:45Speaker 01

  Well, I think most people who do stand up don't get in there through any form of desire to, to be on a stage in, in the, in the study that they do, you know? They kind of end up there because they like comedy or they, they end up on stage doing a, a, a new act thing or something like that, you know, they, they just kind of, it's a dare or it's a, it's a talent thing that they do and they just realise they, they like it. And I'd say that, you know, being logically minded lends itself to a certain type of, you know, analytic brain that is good for comedy. So it means that you can unpick things and you can look at things, you can, you can kind of take out all the, all the, all the, the murkiness of life

• 5:26Speaker 01

  and just see situations for the, the logic that they are, which sometimes that's how you shine a light on things and make them funnier, you know? So there's, um, there's lots of ways of, of being funny on stage, but I think sometimes being a bit of a geek can help.

• 5:40Fearne Cotton?

  That's so interesting, because I, I, I guess I saw the two subjects as totally disconnected. But like you say, if you can look at something that could be, I know, quite mundane, a lot of the best comedy is everyday stuff that's relatable. You can find the funny by...

• 5:56Speaker 01

  Breaking things down to a level of detail that people don't normally see and, and over analysing things to the, to past the level where anybody else would bother to. That's, that's a lot of the time where the comedy is.

• 6:06Fearne Cotton?

  I love that. There is a real science behind it. I mean, I know there is, because we've had a ton of comedians on this show and of course, there's, there's got to be logic, there's got to be a science, a formula behind making people laugh.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  And it can be mathematical, but you're not going on stage just going, hey, what's the deal with X and Y?

• 6:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, that's, that's less funny. It's much less funny. I've read before that you've said losing your sight really drove you to be the sort of comedian that you want to be. In what way? How do you think it's informed how you perform your comedy?

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, I don't know if it's specifically that I want to be, but it's certainly pushed me down an avenue of comedy where I am, where I've landed now. And, and it's not an avenue of comedy that's unique to me. So I don't really, I don't compare shows. I've never, when I was doing the clubs, I never compared shows. When I do my sets, I don't really go in and actively engage with the audience. If something happens, I will do, but I don't talk to the audience. I very much stick to things that I've written, ideas that I've got. And I'm not one of those comedians that relies on interacting with the audience for comedy. But there are other comedians that do what I do, but they might have done it through like an artistic choice to just be one of those comedians

• 7:24Speaker 01

  that doesn't really bother with the audience. Milton Jones, for example, you know, does his thing, he's brilliant at it, doesn't really go into the audience and talk to them. And that's, that's an artistic choice he's made to the kind of comedy he likes. I've ended up there kind of through circumstance, maybe more than, um, more than, you know, artistic choice. But, um, but still, it's a, it's a place I like, I like being, you know? It means I have to write a bit more, maybe.

• 7:49Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 7:52Speaker 01

  But, um, but, but still, it's a, it's a skill that I have never really been able to flex my muscles on is that ability to just spend 20 minutes going into an audience and interrogating them.

• 8:03Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm. Yeah, and, but that's informed your, your comedy to a place where, you know, that's, that feels good to you, that feels right to you to get out on stage. You know your set, you deliver it, you get the reaction that you want.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  And if things happen in the room, you can react to them. But, um, but it is a lot more difficult to kind of actively go into the audience and, and, you know, for want of a better word, pick on them. Um, or, or, you know, talk to them, because all the audience members can go quiet and you need to read the body language, you need to be able to see who they're sat next to, you know, what, I suppose on a basic level, what they're wearing, you know, and things like that. So, um, yeah, it's not something I, it's not something I've ever done.

• 8:42Fearne Cotton?

  You, you grew up in Liverpool and you, you lost your sight gradually as a young person. Obviously, like, being a young person growing up, it's, it's hard enough as it is the challenges of, aren't they? Being a teenager, trying to find your tribe, work out how you fit into the world and what you like, what you don't like. How was navigating that alongside gradually losing your sight? Having, you know, a big challenge like that as a young person?

• 9:06Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, it's, it's one of those things that it's, there's a lot of denial along the way because you never notice it happening. So when you're losing your sight so gradually that you can't, it's the frog in the water, you don't notice it happening. And so there's never a time when you have to come to terms with it. So you always think you can do things that you, that you used to be able to until something happens that makes you realise that maybe you can't anymore. It's usually incident or injury or close shave or something like that, you know, that you nearly get hit by a bus and you're like, shit, maybe I shouldn't be, you know, maybe, maybe I should be using Pelican crossings all the time now rather than just cutting across at junctions or whatever.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  There's a lot of denial along the way, but, you know, I, um, growing up in Liverpool as a kid... I was lucky that, you know, especially compared to kids these days, I grew up at a time where you just, you just played on the streets.

• 9:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  I had a really good, close group of mates and we did everything outside, you know, very normal childhood and my eyesight was never an issue in terms of having those relationships with friends. It was an issue in terms of things that became more difficult, playing football and when, as it got to dusk and dark and computer games became more difficult as, as the years went on, but I was lucky I had a really good, close group of friends and my, my best mate from when I was four years old, three or four years old is, you know, we're still the best of mates now. So, you know, we went through the football in the streets, to the computer games, to the discovery of music, metal concerts, clubs, you know what I mean? Everything together.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  So, um, I was, you know, very lucky that, um, you know, I had, I had a good mate like that to, to go, to, to, to go through it all with.

• 10:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, that's the most important thing is having those people that, that, you know, you've got that bond with. My old schoolmates are still my best mates today.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:02Fearne Cotton?

  And it's like you're almost family at that point when you've been through so much with a, a group of people and especially when you've got, you know, an extraordinary career that takes you to interesting places and is, I'm imagining different to the, your schoolmates. It's, it's important to have that connection to your childhood and to the person you were before, all of the, the fame and the success and, and all the exciting things.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the way I look at it as well is, you know, I lost my sight over 20 years and he was, you know, my mate all the way through that, but he's an Everton fan, so I'm not really sure which one of us is worse off. So I think maybe I, uh, maybe, maybe I did get the, um, the, the better end of the deal on that one.

• 11:41Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, so great. I'm taking it you're a Liverpool fan.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know you don't like football, but you know.

• 11:47Fearne Cotton?

  I do not, I'm not interested at all, but I can imagine.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  That was very funny.

• 11:52Fearne Cotton?

  It's still funny, even as someone that's clueless about football, it's still funny. No, it's a beautiful thing. I think that friendship is, is great. Does he, does he come to your shows? Is he, is he heckling you? What's he doing?

• 12:04Speaker 01

  No, you know, I tell him to keep his mouth shut, but, um, I've got, you know, I've got a hair in my mouth, it's come off his chair.

• 12:09Fearne Cotton?

  It has. You're gonna get a furball, Chris.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  I think I've like touched the chair and touched my mouth and, um, what's that podcast like with Fern Cotton, do you know what, you get a hairy mouse.

• 12:20Fearne Cotton?

  It's a bonus prize for any guests that I have here with me.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, he's, he's, you know, he's very proud of everything that's come along, but you ask my mates, I mean, my mates are like, you know, all my mates that have picked up along the way, you know, they will say the same thing about my comedy. They are gobsmacked because I was never funny in the pub.

• 12:38Fearne Cotton?

  What?

• 12:38Speaker 01

  That's what they'll say, God, he was never funny in the pub.

• 12:41Fearne Cotton?

  What? I'm, I'm imagining that you've been like class joker and then you, you know.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  I know, I mean, I'd like to think I was and, and my school reports would indicate that I was, but it doesn't, it doesn't necessarily mean there was any level of quality to the.

• 12:56Fearne Cotton?

  That's been honed over the years.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's been learned professionally.

• 13:00Fearne Cotton?

  One of the, the biggest joys was you on Strictly. I mean, it was just such a wonderful moment and just a beautiful thing for every viewer who loves that show to watch you really, really thrive, but I know that it was fucking terrifying to be part of and you were shit scared to do it.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Absolutely the most terrifying thing I've ever done in my life. And I said no a few times, um, because it was insane to me that they even thought it was possible. And, um, yeah, I mean, I didn't even know what they were asking me to do. You can't describe it. So.

• 13:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  Uh, it was, it was so unknown and, and I'd just finished a tour as well, like I'd done a tour, finished at the Shepherd's Bush Empire. I'd built that audience up with, with, with comedy shows and I just thought if this is a disaster, because it could be, you know, not like goofy dancing, but like literally failing on the telly in, in, in, you know, halfway through the dance, you know, missing a move and, and ending up in a heap on the floor or wherever. Who wants to go and watch a comedian they feel sorry for? It, it runs the risk of eliciting sympathy from the people watching. So I thought it was risky, insane, but, um, it's very, very slowly, everybody who's meant to be in my corner professionally started, um, ganging up on me.

• 14:21Fearne Cotton?

  Just what you want.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  And in the end, it just became easier to shut them all up and agree to do it.

• 14:26Fearne Cotton?

  I love it, I love it. I, I was reading about the, the process for you of not only the rehearsing for the show, but then switching from that to the live audience show was a huge deal and things that, you know, the other contestants wouldn't have to consider. For instance, when you're rehearsing, you're in a really nice quiet room and you can hear your partner's footsteps and maybe instructions, but when you're in that live studio, for anyone that's not been to a recording of a live show, it is loud. You've got a huge audience, you've got, you know, the team is immense, it's a very noisy environment. How, how discombobulating was that on the day?

• 15:04Speaker 01

  There's 500 people in our studio, which in the world of entertainment is not a lot, but those 500 people are split down two sides, so they hit you from both sides of the studio. And they are louder than a 2000 seater theatre. Um, a 2000 seater theatre will laugh, they'll applaud, they'll cheer. The, these 500 people scream. It's like, it's, it's, it's like, I mean, the closest I can kind of, I mean, not to equate myself to this in any way, but it's almost like, like you see the Beatles videos from back in the sixties and they just lose their mind. And this, this, this noise of the, these 500 people either side of you and then the volume of the band in, I mean, I can hear all of that, but in essence, when it, when it comes to, um, Diane, it makes me deaf as well to her.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  So I couldn't see her, couldn't hear her. Um, really you're doing it from, um, really precise learning of the, the moves and there's no visual point of reference, tend to face the judges, to walk down, to do the dance standard thing that way. You've got to learn all the angles, um, and all these little things that people would have just had an easy reference point for. We had to spend such a, a large amount of time, disproportionate amount of time on these small little details, but, um, but Diane is, um, you know, I mean, I'll tell you this, she's, she's like, I don't say this to her, but she's a magician really, so.

• 16:25Fearne Cotton?

  She's so wonderful.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  I mean, she, to get this out of me, she's, um, she's, she's magnificent. I mean, I say that to you, to her, I say to her, do you know what? You tried this seven times and you failed every time. I turn up first, go bang.

• 16:40Fearne Cotton?

  I love it. Did you end up actually really loving it, like getting a kick out of it?

• 16:45Speaker 01

  I mean, it was terrifying, you know, it was terrifying and, and, um, up and down, not just like you don't just get better at it, like week five, I was the second most nervous I've been, you know, it depends what dan, what the dance is and how confident you feel about it. Um, it was the most remarkable thing I've been a part of.

• 17:01Fearne Cotton?

  How cool.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Probably the proudest thing I've ever been of anything we've ever done to maintain that performance. And, um, as much as, um, me and Diane poke each other with a stick and then take the Mickey out of each other, she's magnificent and we, um, we just absolutely trusted each other and got on from the beginning, you know?

• 17:18Fearne Cotton?

  I love that. What a dynamic duo, so beautiful.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 17:21Fearne Cotton?

  So cool. Obviously, you know, you're absolutely thriving at work, you've done a massive tour this year and, you know, you're just constantly taking part in brilliant things, cool projects and, and thriving, like your career is just up and up and up and up and up. But Chris, are you good at resting?

• 17:43Fearne Cotton?

  I guess that's a no.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Depends, depends, you know, it, um, I get bored very quickly.

• 17:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, as with a lot of, I mean, listen, this is gonna be the most, um, this must be the most biased, biased podcast really, when it comes to the idea of resting, because I think that you will find that neurodiversity is massively overrepresented in the world of comedy and TV and entertainment. We're, we're all people that just can't hold down nine to five jobs.

• 18:10Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, can't sit still.

• 18:12Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  You're, you're gonna be talking to, I mean, your guest list must have a 85 to 90% ADHD rate.

• 18:18Fearne Cotton?

  You're right. I think you're absolutely right, me included, although not diagnosed, but all, all the pointers are there.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  I was diagnosed over 10 years ago, so do I enjoy resting theoretically? Yeah, but, but I get bored really, really quick.

• 18:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I hear you. Just, yeah, I'm, I mean, I'm not good. I've actually got a day off tomorrow and I've not had a day off in, I couldn't tell you, weeks and I'm already panicking about what am I going to do? Cause I can't not do. I find relaxing hard, but one place that, or one, um, situation that helps me to do a lot less, and that's mainly because I'll leave my phone in a drawer, is going on holiday. I do love going on holiday. How do you feel about holidays? Do you like them?

• 18:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it depends, it depends what the holiday is. I mean, um, I cope much better with a doing things holiday than a not doing things holiday. I, I find the idea of sitting there trying to rest more exhausting sometimes than doing things.

• 19:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  Cause I, I sit there, my brain just kicks off. Me, I can rest my body, but my brain doesn't get the memo.

• 19:23Fearne Cotton?

  No, mine doesn't. My brain is a chatty Cathy, it doesn't stop talking. Would like, I don't know, audiobooks, is that a good thing to help you relax?

• 19:31Speaker 01

  So it is, but the good thing with audiobooks, and I listen to a lot of audiobooks, so I'm a bit of an audiobook junkie, is that they are amazing for multitasking. I tend not to just sit there and listen to them. I tend to put them on when I'm doing other things, when I'm getting ready in the morning, of a night when I'm going to bed, if I'm travelling, if I'm, you know, washing the dishes, whatever it is. Audiobooks, the radio, audiobooks, they are, you know, something that goes along with that. But to just sit there and listen without doing anything, I can do it for maybe 20 minutes.

• 20:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  And then I'm up and I'm about and I'm like, what can I do? Upside down too long.

• 20:11Fearne Cotton?

  What's your flavour of choice? Are you going fiction, non-fiction, true crime? Like, what's the flavour?

• 20:17Speaker 01

  I'm a, well, I've been through, I've been through a lot of different, I like a bit of sci-fi.

• 20:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  But it's got to be, I mean, this is really niche and geeky. It's got to be, it's got to be sci-fi set in this world now where something mad happens. That I can't be doing with planets 3,000 years in the future and intergalactic ships and all that kind of nonsense. It's got to be something mad, like, think back to the future.

• 20:38Fearne Cotton?

  Right, yes.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  Something mad crazy happens to a guy now in this world.

• 20:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  And I like a bit of that. I did go through a big phase, I listened to a lot of detective stuff, but I find that often the twist annoys me.

• 20:52Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  And I've landed now on, on kind of undercover cop, MI5 agent goes rogue kind of things.

• 21:01Fearne Cotton?

  Okay, nice.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Because I find that I'm just living this ulterior life now through, you know, through a guy with a high body count that just goes around, you know. I find there's no twists, you kind of know who the bad guy is at the beginning and it's just how they get there to like killing everyone.

• 21:14Fearne Cotton?

  I like that. Is that going to be your side hustle, MI5 agent?

• 21:18Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 21:19Fearne Cotton?

  Why not? Why not? You've done a hell of a lot of work to help raise awareness for disability and that is something that is always needed. When you go on holiday, what sorts of challenges are you facing? There are obviously a lot. One of my great friends, Sophie Morgan, has done a hell of a lot of work in helping making travel easier for wheelchair users. But that's just like one, one problem, one issue that is out there. What challenges do you face? And, and how are you navigating them when you're away?

• 21:50Speaker 01

  I think a problem that most people with disabilities will probably say they face is that dependence is exhausting.

• 21:58Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  You know, so to have to depend on people is sometimes more mentally draining and fatiguing and depleting than trying, than being able to do things yourself, finding ways to get things done yourself. And when you're at home, you have all these different ways, mechanisms, you know, life hacks. You have everything the way you need it, everything the way you want it. And you can, you can kind of live your life 95% of the way really with things you've figured out yourself. When you go away, you have to depend a lot more on other people. And, and that's, that's the, that's the draining thing about it, you know.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  So I find that if I'm going away and it's one of these sit around doing nothing holidays, you feel that when you want to get up and do something, you know, you are taken away from somebody else's rest.

• 22:53Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  Whether it's your wife, whether it's a friend, whether it's whatever, I need to go to the toilet, I need to, I want to get out of the sun. I want to, I want to go and get a drink.

• 23:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  You've got to, you've got to take somebody else out of their rest because you depend on them to get around and do things. Whereas when you're on a doing things holiday, you're all doing, you're all doing things anyway.

• 23:13Fearne Cotton?

  So what would be your dream doing holiday? What would that be? Would it be an activity? Where are you, where are you imagining?

• 23:19Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, ironically, I would much rather go sightseeing than, than sit on a beach and be left with my own thoughts.

• 23:27Fearne Cotton?

  I love that.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I, I, I mean, it's, it's a little bit like, I mean, there's, there's fun in, you know, you want, like, okay, you, you must, you must have watched a film with, with your kids that you've seen a lot of times in the past. And you get enjoyment out of them watching the film.

• 23:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  You know, so, you know, you watched Flight of the Navigator from the 80s or something. You know the film and then you get, you get to watch it with your kid and they enjoy it. And there's a real joy in getting them, in them enjoying the film. And I get that, a sightseeing really, I know it's a joke to go, the blind guy goes sightseeing. But I would rather, you know, I, I, I, I find the enjoyment of other people seeing the things and going to these places, you know. Still, there's value in it, you know, there's, and, and you're all out doing things. And, and the fact that you, you're moving around and you're, I don't need to, you know, you're, you're all, you're all doing that anyway. Let's go and have some food. Yeah, we're all out together.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  And, and I just find that there's less dependence in it, even though you are depending on people to get you around. You're not taking them away from something else to get them to do your thing.

• 24:38Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  You're all in the same boat and doing the same thing. So I'd, I'd much rather do that, to be honest, when I'm on holiday. Theme parks are good. My daughter loves theme parks. So, you know, you're all going from ride to ride, having food and, and stuff like that. So these, I, I find, even though you're moving around and they are exhausting physically, they are less mentally fatiguing.

• 25:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I, I get it. And I guess also, say you go sightseeing to a city, a place where there's a ton of things to do. You've got a sensory experience anyway that's different to home, whether it's climate or the smells and the sounds of a place. How much enjoyment do you, do you get from that side of it?

• 25:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, let's be, no one's going anywhere to smell it, but yeah.

• 25:25Fearne Cotton?

  I don't know, if you're like, someone that does really great barbecued food, I'm here for it.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's like, oh, do you know what? Let's go to Chicago. I believe it smells fantastic.

• 25:34Fearne Cotton?

  It smells of petrol.

• 25:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you do, you soak up, you soak up a place. I mean, it's, sometimes these places can be really, really loud and overbearing.

• 25:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  I mean, much in the same way that I, I always, when, when I lost my sight, I found nightclubs to be overbearing because you can't have conversations when, when the music's thumping. Give me a pub any day of the week.

• 25:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Sometimes, you know, you go to places that are just so, there's so much happening that the, the basics become harder. You know, chatting to the people you're with and so on. So, you know, I like things happening, but not, not too much.

• 26:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That overstimulation can be disorientating. Yeah.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Or just, or just, you know, you, you don't, you don't want a normal convo, you know, you don't want an hour's worth of normal conversation with the people you're with to leave you with no voice. You don't have to be shouting over the top of things too much. So, yeah, I, I like, you know, going on a good doing things holiday, but keep the volume down a little bit.

• 26:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. If you think back to great holidays you've been on, can you think of like a magical holiday moment? And if so, what, what would spring to mind?

• 26:45Speaker 01

  So, I mean, I mentioned theme parks there and my daughter just absolutely loves the adrenaline of theme parks. And, I mean, I was never, this is weird, I was never into fairground rides. When I could see, the, the sight of them terrified me. Roller coasters, anything that drops and whatever.

• 27:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Oh, I couldn't, I couldn't queue for them. Since I stopped being able to see, they don't bother me that much. I can get on anything really without knowing what it looks like.

• 27:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  And it really doesn't bother me, which is, which is weird. You would have thought it would have been the other way around. But we were, you know, we've been to Euro Disney, Disneyland Paris a couple of times. And that Tower of Terror.

• 27:26Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, God.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  The one with the lift that goes up to the top and drops. I think that that is probably as terrifying as it is the perfect fairground ride. Because a lot of fairground rides are, you know, fabricated things, they're roller coasters, they're, they're not real. Whereas a lift dropping is a real fear that everybody has and it plays on that. And I remember the first time we went on that when my daughter, she was only young, she was, must have been about five or six.

• 27:51Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, my God.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  And she absolutely loved it. And we went, we must have gone on it twice a day. She, she loved it. And me and her on that, and she'd scream, my legs would shoot in the air when it dropped down. There was a, there was a lady next to my daughter on one of them, she said to my daughter, she said, your daddy screams a lot, doesn't he?

• 28:11Fearne Cotton?

  I love it.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  And so just the joy of my daughter on that ride and going on it. And then when we went back a year or two ago, we, we went back and we went on it again. And honestly, the joy didn't, didn't decrease.

• 28:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, so great.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  So I would say as, as kind of, you know, as kind of commercial as it is, going on that Tower of Terror with my daughter and just the joy, you know, the anticipation of the drop is, is magical.

• 28:42Fearne Cotton?

  It's so great. It's, it's so, like, the feeling of being absolutely petrified or excited, they're very close together. I took my kids on this water ride where you sit in a big giant inflatable, it's kind of like a big, a boat really. And you've all got your own little compartment. And I didn't know what we were in store for. I thought it was like a lazy river. It was the opposite of a lazy river and we shot down this. Bloody massive tube at such speed, it was almost vertical. And my daughter, I thought she was crying. So we got to the bottom and I was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. And she went, can we do it again? And I was like, okay, right, I get it. We're like excitement and fear, they're very, very close together.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  Well, when, when we, the first time we went to Disney Paris and we were on the, um, the, the Aerosmith ride, which is inside, it's in the, in the dark inside, we didn't really know what it was. And my daughter, I mean, she must've been five or six. And we, we went on and we didn't realise how big it was.

• 29:39Fearne Cotton?

  Oh God.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  And we'd strapped in and the things come over here, but my wife sat next to my daughter, but she can't see her because the things.

• 29:46Fearne Cotton?

  Oh yeah, the big neck things. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 29:48Speaker 01

  Block your side view. And it, we didn't realise how big this roller coaster was. And my daughter had never been on anything like that before.

• 29:54Fearne Cotton?

  Oh God.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  And my wife spent the whole thing terrified that we'd scarred her for life. Or that she'd flown out halfway around. She didn't even know she was still there. She couldn't reach her. And so when we got to the end, um, my wife was shell shocked and we got off and my, my daughter was like, oh my God, can we do it again? That was amazing. And we tried to do it again. And then the guy on the, on the thing said, um, oh no, she's too small.

• 30:16Fearne Cotton?

  Oh God.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  And we were like, oh, how did, how did she get her? We are terrible parents.

• 30:24Fearne Cotton?

  Some very loose parenting going on there. I love it.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  We went on it the first time and that, you know, we didn't go out again on that trip. But, um, but she then, we realised, oh God, this kid's going to be able to go on anything.

• 30:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, exactly. She's got the bug. She's got the bug. When you go away with your family, what is the one thing you do as a family to take holidays seriously? To really make sure that it is either magical or that you properly get time out from everyday life?

• 30:48Speaker 01

  I suppose, you know, try and plan, like if it's, if it's a holiday that we go to just the three of us, try and plan some things to do because we will, we, we, we, we're not, we're not of the right mindset to wake up and figure things out on the day. We, we'll, um, we'll go around in circles. We'll realise that things are sold, sold out or things are, you know, fully booked or whatever. We'll, we'll argue, well, you should have done that. What would you have done?

• 31:13Fearne Cotton?

  Good classic holiday argument.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. I booked the flights. Well, no, no, no. Um, so, um, yeah, just try and give a little bit of, just try and plan a few things. Don't go overboard because you're, you're planning, you're planning too much. But just one thing a day.

• 31:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  And if you've got one thing a day to build a day around, um, then you'll have a good holiday.

• 31:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  If you try and book five things a day, oh, it's too much and you'll, you'll end up resenting some of the things and not enjoying them. But if you can just have one good thing to do a day or for most of the days, then, um, everything else that happened around it.

• 31:45Fearne Cotton?

  What about, um, local cuisine? Are you, are you kind of good with trying new foods and trying new things? Is that a part of your holiday experience you like?

• 31:54Speaker 01

  I would say within reason.

• 31:55Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  Um, I will try any, any type of burger that you give me.

• 32:02Fearne Cotton?

  How exotic of you, Chris.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, so I would, you see, it, it, it, it's, you, you grow up in this country and you grow up, you know, believing that you like exotic food because growing up in the eighties in Liverpool, you know, there, there was nothing. You, you, the, the chippy, you had a sausage dinner. And then you, you, you kind of as an adult, you know, there's more restaurants, there's more availability, access to restaurants. But you, you get into Indian food, Chinese food, and you grew up thinking that you like Chinese food. But you like Chinese food in England.

• 32:35Fearne Cotton?

  You like English Chinese food. It's very different.

• 32:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't think I would last five minutes eating Chinese, Chinese food in China or whatever. But, um, I, you know, going to Singapore and, and I had a soup and there, there was tentacles in it.

• 32:51Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, no, no, no.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Couldn't touch it.

• 32:52Fearne Cotton?

  No, no.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  Like antennas, not tentacles, antennas in it.

• 32:55Fearne Cotton?

  Antennas?

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Antennas, like off, off a thing.

• 32:58Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  Um, I can't get them, I can't get them psychologically, can't get them in my mouth.

• 33:04Fearne Cotton?

  No, same.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  This is the opposite of the, you know, being able to see the fairground rides. Not being able to see the food, I think is much worse in my head.

• 33:13Fearne Cotton?

  The texture of a tentacle or an antenna is number one.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  No, and not being able to see it, the, the vision in my head, I would say is probably a lot worse than what it is.

• 33:24Fearne Cotton?

  It might not be.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  In the thing. But, um, you know, we took, we talked about, we talked about how well I did on Strictly. I don't think I would last in the jungle longer than, like, I would either be the worst person that's ever been on it or I would be kept in it because I just can't get the food past my mouth without crying.

• 33:41Fearne Cotton?

  It, it's the worst bit. I actually just interviewed Ruby Wax the other day.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:46Fearne Cotton?

  And she was like, yeah, not bothered about that. I could, you can put anything in my gob. Like literally, she will eat anything.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:52Fearne Cotton?

  Doesn't give a toss.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  It just, there's something wrong with her.

• 33:55Fearne Cotton?

  No fear.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Not having that.

• 33:56Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no fear. She was eating it all, all sorts.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  Oh God. I mean, I just, I just, I just can't do it.

• 34:01Fearne Cotton?

  I can't.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  So yeah.

• 34:03Fearne Cotton?

  Gagging thinking about it.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  Adventurous to a point. I like to explore local cuisine, but as long as it's, um, not got mad stuff in it.

• 34:11Fearne Cotton?

  No, no mad stuff allowed. Absolutely not.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  Nothing with heads. Don't give me food with heads on it.

• 34:15Fearne Cotton?

  No, I don't, we don't want eyes and antennas and no teeth.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  Nothing that looks the same as it did when it was alive. Make a bit of effort.

• 34:28Fearne Cotton?

  We had the delicious Sophie Ellis-Bextor come and chat a while ago about holidays. She's got five sons, which is absolutely wild. You know, she's booking these holidays where she's got to keep five sons occupied, who range from I think something like seven to 23 or something. So she's got to cater for all these different ages and, and she's done some brilliant holidays with them. Japan was her absolute favourite. You've got a daughter who's 12, am I right?

• 34:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, obsessed with Japan.

• 34:58Fearne Cotton?

  Obsessed with Japan? Have you done Japan?

• 34:59Speaker 01

  So my wife and daughter have because, um, my daughter's friend is Japanese. And so they went, they went as a little gang, the two mums and the kids.

• 35:08Fearne Cotton?

  How cool.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  Um, but she's one of these kids now that's just obsessed. The, the culture of Japan is massive with kids.

• 35:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  The animation and, and stuff and the music, you know, so, um, they had a fantastic time. I'd love to go at some point.

• 35:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I want to go so bad. My son is the same. My son's 13 and he is absolutely in love with the idea of going there at some point.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  It's, it's, it feels like a magical place, doesn't it? Because it seems to straddle this line between kind of old, old traditions and mystic ways.

• 35:37Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  With like talking toilets.

• 35:40Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly. The most futuristic out there.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  And robots and things, yeah.

• 35:44Fearne Cotton?

  It's so great. You've obviously mentioned that your daughter loves theme parks and, and you know, that's a guaranteed way to make sure that she has the most magical time when you're away. What else over the years have you implemented to make sure she has a great trip? Because obviously she's 12 now, so a little bit more independent. My son, you know, similar age, that you know that they're gonna be okay on a flight or they're gonna have a great time when you get to the beach, whatever it is. But when they're smaller, it's perhaps a lot harder. What, what do you think has helped you have really good family trips with your daughter?

• 36:14Speaker 01

  Including her in the, in, in the decisions. Don't just tell her what she's doing.

• 36:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  You know, and, and I think that kids like to be involved in, you know, they, uh, she don't, she didn't really want too many surprises.

• 36:27Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  Um, so it, it's about, you know, including her in, in what do you want to do? And, and would you like to go here? What do you reckon it is? And because ultimately it's, it's, it's why you're going, isn't it?

• 36:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  And so, um, you want to kind of, there's a balance between pushing them out of their comfort zone and encouraging them to do things that maybe they find a little bit, um, scary or a little bit new. But also, um, letting them be in charge of their own, their, their own destiny in their life, really. So.

• 36:58Fearne Cotton?

  Too right.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I think, um, I think if 80% they can know is, um, is, is going on and coming up. And then 20% is, is you trying to, um, encourage them to do new things, then that's a good balance, isn't it?

• 37:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, that's a really good plan. I like that a lot. Um, what do you think the best decision you've ever made on holiday is?

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Um, the best decision I've ever made on a holiday was when I was in, um, probably in New York with my wife. And it was, um, during February, during a snowstorm. And I'd, um, the, the snow was feet deep, feet deep. And I'd turned up with, um, with extremely semi-permeable trainers juice. Um, and, and I went into a department store and I, um, bought a pair of insulated boots.

• 37:45Fearne Cotton?

  How practical of you.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  And I left with my soggy cold trainers in a bag and the, and, and new socks and new shoes. I, I felt like a new man. There's been no decision I've ever made in my life that has rejuvenated me so much and salvaged the holiday because I honestly, I felt like I was in Platoon. I'm like, just leave me alone. Just go on without me. Just.

• 38:10Fearne Cotton?

  In the middle of Times Square.

• 38:13Speaker 01

  Just go on without me.

• 38:15Fearne Cotton?

  I love it. But New York cold is not England cold. It's a different cold.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  It was in me toes, it was in me feet. If your feet are miserable, your head is miserable.

• 38:25Fearne Cotton?

  I agree, I agree.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  And so just, you know, if you realise at any point in your holiday you haven't got the right footwear, go and sort it out, it'll change your life.

• 38:33Fearne Cotton?

  Treat yourself to a new pair of shoes, my friend. Chris, where would you say your holiday happy place is?

• 38:39Speaker 01

  I mean, just anywhere my daughter's having fun, I suppose. You know, I know there's a whole world of great places out there. I find that English speaking places are better for me because the the communication becomes easier, it becomes less exhausting. So places I can communicate better are really good for me. You'd be amazed how much communication you do in foreign speaking countries that is visual.

• 39:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  And how much of it you get away with pointing and hand gestures and miming things.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  So I find, you know, a place with good English for me, it just takes a lot of the stress off it. But I'm one of these people, you know, I grew up loving America. You know, all of the films, the music I love is American. Back in the 90s, when everyone was going through the love affair with Britpop, my heart was in Seattle with Nirvana and Soundgarden and Pearl Jam.

• 39:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  And so, you know, as crazy as the politics is in the world at the minute, I love the idea of America. And so I'd like to, I'd like to go and experience more of it, maybe.

• 39:49Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Maybe one day I'll make it as far as Australia. I've only ever made it as far as Singapore up to this point in my life. And both times I've made it that far, I've just thought to myself, I can't believe there's a place that's further.

• 40:05Fearne Cotton?

  Another long haul flight after that. It's a nightmare. I once did Fiji, which is, you know, you do Singapore, Sydney, then another flight. And there was a big layover as well. And it was like two days of travelling. It was crazy.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  It's nuts. And when they do that, you know, when, when they do that plane that just kind of shoots in the air and lets the world go around and it goes into space and drops back down, you can, you know what I mean? Like some kind of intergalactic slingshot around the moon and back down in half an hour. That'd be good.

• 40:34Fearne Cotton?

  They'll do it one day. You'll get there. You'll get to Australia. Well, Chris, it's been such a joy having you on Happy Place. I hope that you get a break from work soon and you can have a doing holiday for you and your family that involves the odd roller coaster or two, and that you get a nice break. Thank you so much, Chris.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  Good. I'm gonna go and try and remove the hairs from me, from, that have ended up in my mouth off this end.

• 40:57Fearne Cotton?

  Do you want like a lint roll for your tongue?

• 40:58Speaker 01

  Yeti chair, some sellotape. You're gonna have to sellotape my tongue.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  Cheers, bud.

• 41:05Fearne Cotton?

  That's so good. Thank you, Chris. What a brilliant human being Chris is. All of us in the Happy Place studio afterwards were like, what a big hearted man, what a spirited human with such a beautiful outlook on life. It was honestly, like, his joy was contagious. Getting to hang out with Chris and just be in his presence, he's just such a good energy to be around. We are all massive Chris McCall'son fans, that is for sure. If you want help taking your holidays more seriously, then you know where to go. British Airways Holidays allows you to book with a low deposit and pay off your holiday in flexible instalments. They offer a 24 hour holiday helpline and all holidays include a generous baggage allowance per

• 41:49Fearne Cotton?

  person. What's more, all British Airways Holidays are Atol protected, so they've got you well and truly covered. I want to say a massive thanks to Chris, what a legend, to British Airways Holidays for making today's conversation happen, and to you, because you are ace.

• 42:26Fearne Cotton?

  Happy Place is researched by me, Fern Cotton. The producer is Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, with studio engineering by Basil Oxtaby.