Chris Olsen: “Addiction is so complicated because there’s no right answer”

TikToker Chris Olsen shot to stardom during the pandemic. But while all eyes were on his viral videos, he was struggling to forgive himself for the challenges of his past. In this candid conversation, Chris sits down with Fearne in New York City to talk about fame, recovery, and his journey to self-forgiveness. He talks about the addiction that consumed his late teenage years, and the life-changing intervention staged by his friends and family. He also reflects on his time in rehab, and why the worst version of yourself doesn’t have to define you. Chris’ book, I Think My Therapist Hates Me: A Memoir, is out now. A warning that this episode contains references to alcohol and drug addiction. If you’re affected by these issues, please listen with care. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Jesse Tyler Ferguson https://pod.fo/e/6aa865 Spencer Matthews https://pod.fo/e/35401b Millie Gooch https://pod.fo/e/5a3413 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Fearne Cotton?

  Before we start, this episode contains some chat you might find difficult to hear. So do check the show notes for more details.

• 0:08Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, everyone. I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that looks back to help us move forward. Today, I'm talking to Chris Olsen.

• 0:17Speaker 01

  It's easy to talk about the recovery. It's easy to talk about, I mean, not easy, but it's cathartic to talk about the fact that I had an intervention. I got through it and then I went to rehab and that was crazy. It's way harder to talk about why I got there in the first place, because that's the like really messy part. But that is the honest part and there have been so many, I mean, all of it's the honest part, but that you need that part to get to where we are now.

• 0:45Fearne Cotton?

  This was a really exciting chat because I got to go all the way to New York for it. Our friends at Amazon Music got Happy Place, a huge billboard in Times Square, which I can't believe happened. What the hell? That was such a weird moment. So whilst I was there, I met up with TikToker Chris Olsen. We talk about a lot in this chat. We talk about the separation between Chris in his videos and who he is in private. And we dive deeply into his memoir, I Think My Therapist Hates Me. It was one of the most raw books ever. He goes into such detail about his life, which I massively appreciate because I think for other people dealing with the issues that he's dealt with,

• 1:24Fearne Cotton?

  whether it be alcoholism and addiction within your family and also to do with yourself. I think it will be very, very helpful. So I'm appreciative of his honesty.

• 1:40Speaker 02

  mod.com is changing the way people battle excessive fatigue. Ever hit a wall in the middle of the day and a third coffee just doesn't do it anymore? Here's what's actually happening. Coffee only briefly blocks adenosine, the chemical that tires you out. When it stops working, your system is flooded and you crash. Medafinil is a prescription treatment that works in a completely different way. Medafinil works by stimulating multiple receptors in the brain associated with wakefulness, including dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, histamine, glutamate and orexin. It's a more complete solution that gives you 10 to 12 hours of steady focus and energy.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  To learn more, go to mod.com. Fill out your intake form, meet with a licensed provider and if approved, Modeller ships straight to your door. Go to mod.com to get started. That's M O D dot com.

• 2:40Speaker 03

  At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet. Like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone and including dental, vision and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at gethumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage, HMO and PPO organisation with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 3:10Speaker 04

  Help I Sexed My Boss is the podcast where manners meets mayhem. I'm William Hanson.

• 3:15Speaker 05

  I'm Jordan North.

• 3:15Speaker 04

  And together we take on the hilarious challenges of modern life.

• 3:19Speaker 05

  William's the arbiter of etiquette.

• 3:21Speaker 04

  And Jordan's the chaotic yin to my perfectly polished yang.

• 3:25Speaker 05

  So if you want laugh out loud stories and brutally honest moments, then you'll love Help I Sexed My Boss.

• 3:31Speaker 04

  Watch and listen every Tuesday and Friday.

• 3:33Speaker 05

  On YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

• 3:36Speaker 04

  Just search Sexed It.

• 3:37Speaker 05

  Be warned, it's a bit rude.

• 3:56Fearne Cotton?

  Chris Olsen, how lovely to see you.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  It's so lovely to see you.

• 4:00Fearne Cotton?

  We this week have something in common because yesterday, or I think it was yesterday, we both had billboards on Times Square. No big deal.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  Oh, it happens.

• 4:10Fearne Cotton?

  It happens.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  It happens. I was just walking through there and I looked up.

• 4:13Fearne Cotton?

  There it was.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  Not again. So embarrassing.

• 4:16Fearne Cotton?

  I will say yours was on a much faster rotation than mine. Yours was like every three minutes. Mine was like 20. I was stood there going, can I see it again, please?

• 4:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:24Fearne Cotton?

  It was a 20 minute cycle.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 4:25Fearne Cotton?

  But what a moment.

• 4:27Speaker 01

  I mean, it's kind of unbelievable, but also you never really, that's not something I would ever really imagine would be like, oh, I can't wait until I get my first like Times Square billboard. That feels just so out of the realm of possibility. And it just feels so like, um, I don't know. You walk through Times Square just thinking like, wow, this is like everyone who I'm seeing up here is like living a different life.

• 4:56Fearne Cotton?

  Oprah was up there yesterday, Kristi Turlington.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  Yep, all the Broadway people.

• 5:01Fearne Cotton?

  All the greats, all the Broadway's.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. And that's like people I grew up idolising. And then suddenly you're up there and you're like, it's the imposter syndrome of it all. I'm like, oh.

• 5:12Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, definitely.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  I mean, they're, they're all up here because they definitely worked there. And then here I am and like, I'm, I'm excited, but I probably shouldn't be up there. Like I, you know, I don't know what's going on, but it was very exciting.

• 5:26Fearne Cotton?

  It's a moment and it was for your brilliant book, which I brought here. Great front cover.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  My therapist hates me.

• 5:30Fearne Cotton?

  It's such a great cover. I love it.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Thank you. I like had the idea for the cover and the title before I really like got to writing. I kind of like knew what it would look like in my head. Because I think, I mean, I had never written a book before, so, but I'd seen plenty of books, read plenty of books. So like when envisioning it, I could see it on a shelf. I just didn't know what was inside yet.

• 5:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, that's the hard bit. But you did it.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  I did.

• 5:58Fearne Cotton?

  And we're going to get onto this book in a moment because there is a lot to talk about. It's a really, I'm imagining relieving book because it is unbelievably honest. And this book, I'm sure will take you all over the place, talking about it and different subject matters. You're ironically going to London tomorrow.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  Tomorrow, like less than 24 hours from now.

• 6:18Fearne Cotton?

  I could have literally seen you there.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  I know. And maybe we will.

• 6:21Fearne Cotton?

  Maybe we will.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  We'll make a plan. Yeah.

• 6:23Fearne Cotton?

  I read it in one go.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 6:26Fearne Cotton?

  I'm a book nerd. I read it in one go, one sitting, which I think helps you to sort of digest the real person. Because even you say in this book, like people will know you from your antics online on TikTok. But you say you can look back at some of those videos and you don't see yourself in those videos necessarily.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And not in a way that I'm like looking back and I, it feels very harrowing. I know the way that that specific moment is written in the book. It, it does feel very like I'm having a meta moment and every time I look at my phone, I'm like, who am I? I don't think it's necessarily as, it doesn't always come to me in that way. But I do think there is a bit of a separation naturally with someone's, anyone who's working in entertainment or who has a public persona. There's, there's just a separation between that and then who you are when you're home alone or when you're just with your friends.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  But I don't know if I could necessarily really harness who I am in those ways and then put that online if I wanted to. It's like, it just is what naturally comes out too. So I don't think it's necessarily inauthentic, but I think, yeah, it is, it is also wild to have quite a catalogue of like videos of me over the past few years and looking at them and wondering like, or knowing what else was going on in my life. But seeing that and thinking like, okay, well, it does appear that things would be great in, for these certain eras, where I knew that in the back, in the background, there were so many other things going on.

• 8:03Fearne Cotton?

  Which I think is so important for all of us to remember, even people that are online in a big way with a big following, that it is a lot of the time, a load of old shit. Like we still can fall into the trap of looking on Instagram, TikTok, whatever, Facebook and going, everyone's nailing it and having the most brilliant time, but you've just said that yourself. I'm sure in some of the parts of your life where people would assume you're nailing it. You've got millions of followers, hundreds of thousands of likes and people wanting to know what you're up to. But actually, on a very personal level, totally different story. And I think we culturally forget that again and again.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  It's the way social media is designed is for us to look at these things and just kind of like take it as is. Social media is also like inherently unnatural. Like we're not supposed to necessarily see that many people.

• 8:52Fearne Cotton?

  No, we definitely not.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  In our lives, our nervous systems, like.

• 8:55Fearne Cotton?

  That much information.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 8:58Fearne Cotton?

  You know, if you think 100 years ago, you kind of knew what was going on like in your village. And now we know what's going on. Anywhere you want to look, you can. It's terrifying.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. And we're fed information and they can like control the algorithms sometime, like it, everything is way more curated than I think we take it. Because when you're kind of like scrolling, you're just assuming you're seeing.

• 9:24Fearne Cotton?

  The truth.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Truth.

• 9:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  And a lot of the time, and there is truth to like so much of what I share. That is just, it's the truth of whatever that moment I'm sharing is. And then maybe something else happened that day or something else was happening in that month. And I'm just like not sharing that part. I mean, I was writing this book for like two years, a year and a half, two years. And I wasn't sharing the process of that during that time. But like, it was, it was not cathartic to write it. It's cathartic now that it's out and like I'm talking about it with people and I see how people have been helped by it or they feel seen in certain ways. But during it, I was just like, oh, I, I've just decided to dig up so much stuff within my life

• 10:11Speaker 01

  that I thought I had processed, but maybe I hadn't fully gone there. I didn't think about all the thoughts I was having during that time and all of that stuff. So.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's it's not that necessarily social media, I I see it as like that is a completely different person, but there's also some protection in creating a character of yourself in some ways.

• 10:34Fearne Cotton?

  And do you think sort of feeling like you're reaping the benefits of it now rather than during the writing process, is some of that to do with, right, you've laid it all bare, everyone knows your demons, your past, things that you're ashamed about, embarrassed about, we've all got these, you know, it's not just you, all everyone out there sits there going, oh, God, I shouldn't have, 10 years ago, like you're waking up at two in the morning, I shouldn't have said that thing, you know, we've all got that level of shame and embarrassment in varying degrees, but once you've laid it all out there, do you feel like you can show up in a room at a party or go with friends for lunch and be completely yourself without, I don't know, putting on a show or feeling like you need to pretend that that stuff's not there?

• 11:16Speaker 01

  With my friends, 100%, yes, I I feel like I'm completely myself. I also, I have a, like, I keep my friend group pretty small, and they're all friends who I've been with for many years of my life and through different eras, I have my friends who like, I have known since pre sobriety, like my my my friend Harley, who was my roommate, who like helped set up the intervention with my family, has been in my life ever since then, and then I have childhood friends, and those are the people who I think like, I I I'm not even thinking about my perception with them, I'm just, we're just ourselves with each other.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I don't feel like there's too much of a, I I'm not self-conscious with my friends. There was part of me that was nervous, but also it is very vulnerable to just be like, here, here's the, this villain arc that I had, and I'm not gonna shy away from the fact that there were, like, it wasn't great, it wasn't great, I was doing things I wasn't proud of, I'm not proud of, I was a person who I felt like was dishonest, was, I mean, I was like, engaging in behavior that I wish I could talk to that 19-year-old, 18-year-old

• 12:41Speaker 01

  and be like, you don't need to do this, you're more than this, but also I wouldn't have listened to myself at that time. So, that, it was, it was nerve-wracking to think that I was just going to put that part out there, because it's easy to talk about the recovery, it's easy to talk about, I mean, not easy, but it's cathartic to talk about the fact that I had an intervention and I got through it, and then I went to rehab, and that was crazy. It's way harder to talk about why I got there in the first place, because that's the like really messy part, but that is the honest part, and there have been so many, I mean, all of it's the honest part, but that, you need that part to get to where we are now. And that has also been, I think, what a lot of people have connected with when they talk

• 13:26Speaker 01

  to me about the book is like, I'm, they, they're very, they're glad that I didn't take out the, the messy part, because, again, as you said, everyone, everyone has had those eras, and sometimes hearing someone else, even if it's not like you relate to the exact things that they went through, it's just humanizing all of us.

• 13:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's a relief, like, we've all done stuff we regret, and we've all got a past, and actually to pretend otherwise is, you know, if you're, if you're wanting to connect with people on that level, that's, that's certainly the way to do it, but I think you can only do it if you've really made peace with yourself, but also forgiven that version of yourself, how, how easy was that to do?

• 14:11Speaker 01

  I feel like I have gone through multiple layers of forgiveness, because I would have said maybe after going to treatment in 2017, that I did forgive myself, but I think, I was 20 at that point, where I would have thought that I had forgiven myself, I didn't even know the magnitude of, of how I felt about the past few years, I think then you have separation from it, and when, when I'm in treatment, there's assignments you're given where you have to write everything you've done your entire life, like, literally there are, the, I I write about it in the book, where there are these things on the walls that are just your entire life story, and that's an assignment that you have to

• 14:53Speaker 01

  do, and then you have to present it to the group over a few weeks. And I remember I did that, I felt like I processed so much of the stuff that I had been through, and then I was writing this book, and I was like, I I was now 26 versus 19, going through this, processing it, my brain had allegedly fully developed at that point, and I just had a different relationship with all of the things that I had gone through and the things that I felt, and it was almost, it was more self-forgiveness, but it was also self-forgiveness that felt painful because I was so connected to my childhood self, and

• 15:34Speaker 01

  I just wish, I just felt, I so bad for him, I wanted to like hug him.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  And when I was 19, I probably would have just been more angry at myself and like, God, that, he, that idiot, because I was, I was so close to who that person was, time-wise, and then 26, 27, I'm, but there's so much more separation, and I can look back and be like, I just have so much more empathy for that person.

• 16:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, to see poor little Chris as a kid who felt left out, different, other.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  I mean, all of the, all of the things, it it it wasn't even, like, even the happy moments of me as a kid, I I think I look back on those times, it's, it's the nostalgia of any of us looking back on our childhoods and being like, not even if our childhoods were necessarily completely happy, but this simple time that we, it's impossible to be super present with when you're in it, because you just want to grow up, and then growing up feels completely different too, and it gets very messy, and I think, I I see my childhood self turning into the alcoholic, and those don't connect well in my head, and

• 16:53Speaker 01

  that's so heartbreaking to me to watch the kid grow into that, but I think that's one of my favorite parts of the intervention chapter is like connecting the two, and that being the reason why I eventually say yes to going to treatment, because even if I, at 19, didn't feel like I deserved to maybe like recover and put this work in and have all these people in the room tell me that I did deserve to live a better life, I knew that the, the kid who I was, he deserved it at least, and that's a big thing I still do in therapy is like the inner child work.

• 17:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, that, the intervention section is very intense to read, because you, at this point, are quite literally faced with people, your nearest and dearest, both your parents are there, your auntie and uncle are there, your friend, a a man that you'd never seen before, who was part of the intervention team, and they presented the case to you, and you initially said, no, I don't want to go today, thank you very much, I'm not going to rehab.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is, I mean, thinking back on that moment alone too, it is hard for me to understand what I was thinking that day, because I was also very hungover, it's, it feels like a different person to me, and also it is me, I can't remove myself from the accountability of it, because then that would maybe make it feel easier to slide back into that, like, I I need to remember that I am capable of being that person, we're all capable of being the person we don't want to be, but I, all I had to do that day was show up and answer yes or no question, and everyone else in that room had had weeks

• 18:41Speaker 01

  of preparation, they had written these letters, they had flown in a lot of them, only for me to initially be like, thanks, guys, but I'm gonna wait until the end of college, and I think back on that now, and I'm like, oh, my God, that's a moment where I would like, that, that one, he needs, he needs to be whipped into shape, come on.

• 19:05Fearne Cotton?

  But it was your, your dad's words that switched your thinking.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  Well, his, the words that I knew he would say, but he never ended up actually reading his, because my sister started crying and saying, don't make dad read his, because when you say no, or at least when I said no at an intervention, the interventionist like tells everyone to turn their page in the like packet of paper that they've all brought, and it's a very dramatic page turn, and like, they were like, I I like, thinking back, I feel like I heard like cries in the room, I was like, something shifted, which obviously, because I've just said no to getting help, and then there are letters about how

• 19:55Speaker 01

  you will no longer be in their lives, but people were going off script too, they were just kind of being like, because they were angry, as they should be.

• 20:04Fearne Cotton?

  But hearing someone say that, say it's your auntie who you love dearly, who's no longer with us, she's saying, Chris, you're cut out of my life, was that impacting you? Or you just kind of, you were cut off from it?

• 20:15Speaker 01

  I didn't know what was about to happen, and then one family member begins, and I'm like, oh, and, and is that what everyone is about to say, and then, but it's like, personal to each person, like, my mom was then saying, like, she will have to tell my grandma, my Lola, that she also can't speak to me, she'll have to cut me off, and, and everyone's, a lot of them are starting to cry while saying this, and that is when I was like, oh, I I'm kind of seeing that this, it wasn't really, it was a question, I do still have autonomy, like, they can't, they can't actually make me get on this plane

• 20:59Speaker 01

  and go, but we were going around the room, I knew, like, next to me was, I can't remember the exact layout, but I want to think it was my sister, my dad, and then my aunt and my uncle over there, and we were, I don't know if we had necessarily gotten to my roommate and my friend right next to me, but we were slowly getting around, and then my sister started crying more, I mean, everyone was already crying, but she was like, please don't make dad read his letter.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  And when she said that, I already, like, I immediately knew what it was gonna say, because I think, one, her saying that in the first place means like, there is some magnitude to whatever's in there. And of love, it wasn't too hard for me to figure out what that would have been. And it's just that, like, it would all be over. He was kind of the la, like, he would have, the, the last things that would have held it together of like, me still going to school and, and going, like, living in that apartment and just having a life while being a 19 year old would have been done. And I would have had to figure it out. But I, I,

• 22:18Speaker 01

  I didn't need him to read that. And I, and there wasn't a world to, even once my fir, like, my first family member read their letter, where I would, I would have been like, okay, I guess I'm out of your life then. Like, I don't think there was ever a moment where I was really considering picking the life I was living over my family. I think I just, I was so wrapped up in my own selfishness and also just who I was at the time. I just, like, I, I could not even have the capacity to think like, oh, they, they really all clearly care about you a lot. Until they all started saying, but that is why the intervention is

• 23:00Speaker 01

  designed in the way that it is. They know you're not thinking in a way that's, you're not like, connecting with your family members. That's how you got, how, how do we get here in the first place? You, you've really lost your way. And so I'm really grateful. I mean, I can't, people will say to me often, like, that must have been such a hard day, like, and it must have been so hard hearing your family members say that to you. And I'm like, yes, way harder to say that to someone. I had to sit there and listen, and listen. They, again, had weeks of preparation. And then they had to hear their family member

• 23:40Speaker 01

  say, thanks, but no. And then they had to tell that family member who they love, and they don't want to tell, that if they don't choose this, that they can't support them. They can't be in their lives. Because watching you continue to hurt yourself is not something that they can, like, being in your life is supporting that. Which is a really hard thing to fathom a lot of the time. And my roommate Harley was like, as soon as you left that day, I was prepared for you to like, never want to be my friend again. And like, once, once or twice a year, I'll call her crying and just thank her, just because she was also 19.

• 24:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. I mean, she stepped over a threshold of awkwardness and just like, the, the magnitude of, of doing that. It's a big threshold to cross as a 19 year old. I mean, that's wild.

• 24:46Speaker 02

  mod.com is changing the way people battle excessive fatigue. Ever hit a wall in the middle of the day and a third coffee just doesn't do it anymore? Here's what's actually happening. Coffee only briefly blocks adenosine, the chemical that tires you out. When it stops working, your system is flooded and you crash. Medafinil is a prescription treatment that works in a completely different way. Medafinil works by stimulating multiple receptors in the brain associated with wakefulness, including dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, histamine, glutamate, and orexin. It's a more complete solution that gives you 10 to 12 hours of

• 25:26Speaker 02

  steady focus and energy. To learn more, go to mod.com. Fill out your intake form, meet with a license provider, and if approved, Modler ships straight to your door. Go to mod.com to get started. That's M O D dot com.

• 25:45Speaker 06

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• 26:15Speaker 03

  At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet, like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone, and including dental, vision, and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is, every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save, too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at gethumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage, HMO and PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 26:45Speaker 05

  Help I Sexed My Boss is the podcast where manners meets mayhem.

• 26:49Speaker 04

  I'm William Hanson.

• 26:50Speaker 05

  I'm Jordan North.

• 26:50Speaker 04

  And together we take on the hilarious challenges of modern life.

• 26:54Speaker 05

  William's the arbiter of etiquette.

• 26:56Speaker 04

  And Jordan's the chaotic yin to my perfectly polished yang.

• 27:00Speaker 05

  So if you want laugh out loud stories and brutally honest moments, then you'll love Help I Sexed My Boss.

• 27:06Speaker 04

  Watch and listen every Tuesday and Friday.

• 27:08Speaker 05

  On YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

• 27:10Speaker 04

  Just search Sexed.

• 27:12Speaker 05

  Be warned, it's a bit rude.

• 27:21Fearne Cotton?

  Before we, we get to talking about rehab, which, thank God, was a big success for you, although lengthy. We need to go back in history. And there are a few women that you talk about in this book that are key to your story, one of them being your mum. And you talk about, when you were a young kid, that she was the mum with the planner and everything was very organized. And you just felt like, this all works beautifully. And then something changed. And incrementally, you as a kid had a realization, something's off here. Something's off.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it didn't, what's funny is, looking back, I both see myself as a kid, but I also remember how I felt in the moment. And I was 13, 14, when this change was happening. And when you're 13, 14, you're like, I'm an adult. I'm a full adult. I deserve autonomy. And my parents are now annoying me. And so I couldn't, like, necessarily understand if, whether what was happening with me and my mom was the same thing that was happening with my friends and their parents, and all of us just being like, ugh, parents. Or if there was something where I was like, yes, parents. And also, like, are yours, like,

• 28:35Speaker 01

  crying to you on the car ride in the morning? About many things, like, I,

• 28:44Fearne Cotton?

  And interrogating you.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. Which is, it's, it's, it's always hard for me to necessarily, I have so much empathy for her in that moment, too. Obviously, then going through my own journey.

• 28:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, of course.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  But then I also have to, like, step into myself as the kid and think like, well, let's also have empathy for Chris. He probably, I, I know that at that time, I was so uncomfortable. I didn't know how to deal with such big feelings from either of us at the time. But all of us were doing what, whatever we were doing for the first time. She was admitting she was an alcoholic for the first time. Her and my dad were admitting, or probably, like, realizing it wasn't working for the first time. I'm a teenager. My sister and I are completely different. I'm realizing I'm gay at that time, too. Like, everything happened all at

• 29:39Speaker 01

  once. And, yeah, I look back on those moments, and it is, the, being in the car, that was one of those moments where, when I, I was writing about it, I really realized I hadn't thought about how I felt. I could have told that story to you about, like, oh, yeah, I was in the car in the morning and my mom would cry. And she would ask me if she should leave my dad and all these things. And I would say this to you, like I'm saying it now. But when you're writing a book about it, you're thinking about everything you thought and felt at that time. And you almost have to, like, step into that. And it was just this wave of sadness and also empathy and.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  Just just paying for that kid who maybe didn't even necessarily feel pain in that moment. I was probably just annoyed, but it was slowly building up this discomfort with myself and with the world at that time.

• 30:40Fearne Cotton?

  And you're just being a kid, you know, you've got school and like you say, working out your sexuality and you've got, you wanna have fun with your mates. And then on the other side, there's serious stuff going down at home and your mom ends up going to rehab on and off for quite a few years at this point through your teen.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it was like over the course of a little over a year. She would, she did a bunch of different programs. It wasn't like my journey where I was, I, I think that's why they had maybe found a place for me that was like, you're gonna be there for as long as it takes. Because my mom had done a bunch of different programs and that was probably very taxing in its own way. And every program has a different philosophy. So yeah, she was on and off for a while. The timeline of it all too is spotty to me because I was, my head was in, I was just put my head in the sand because it was like, this is, I don't even, I can't even process what's happening within myself.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  I'm just happy that maybe I get some alone time.

• 31:41Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm, just to have that solace and respite and to be away from the drama of it all. I mean, has your, has your mom read the book?

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, she, she read it in like four hours.

• 31:52Fearne Cotton?

  And what did she say?

• 31:53Speaker 01

  The day I gave it to her.

• 31:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  She, she said, obviously it was very like painful for her to read that perspective of it, but she's really proud of the work that I did and also like putting it out there because also as painful as those sections are, there's so much of the book that where there's so much joy in my life, you, again, it's, it is really nice to know when you're in the middle of that really dark section that you're like, thank God. I know this at least turns around at some point.

• 32:28Fearne Cotton?

  We know the end of the story and it's good. It's good. But I think, you know, hats off to your mom because, you know, clearly she struggled and I think I, you know, I'm a mom and I've got a teenager and a soon to be teenager. And you do, I think in this day and age, probably less so back when my parents were parenting, but I think there's this constant worry, like every word that we say that's a bit off or every move is gonna somehow fuck your kid up and they're gonna end up in therapy and you worry about it constantly. And here you are quite explicitly saying, this impacted me, my mom's behavior here, her going to rehab. So it's, it's brilliant that she's read it and she's taken it on and she's not like gone for you and be like, how dare you write about me in this way?

• 33:10Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I think a big theme of the book is the ability to change and like being a person you maybe weren't proud of or acting out in certain ways because of the pain you were feeling.

• 33:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  But knowing that that never needs to define who you are, just because that's who you were for a portion of your life, like that doesn't, again, we were all doing life for the first time. I can't imagine what she was feeling at that time. Because there are so many aspects to what she was feeling that were created because of a scenario that I have never been in and maybe will never be in. So I, I do think like if you're, if, if someone reads the book and they're able to see my arc of change, even if a different person's arc isn't necessarily in there, it's kind of like if, if you and I while

• 34:05Speaker 01

  reading are having this moment of you are feeling very seen because you had a moment where you weren't proud of the way you were. That is the truth for anyone who's written about in the book and, and anyone we kind of like, I mean, it's the idea of empathy, I guess, but yeah, she, I, I was, I was very nervous to write it in the very honest way that I knew I had to because I knew she would read it. But knowing that our relationship is completely different now and that we're in a different place, I think it brings the solace of like

• 34:45Speaker 01

  this, we, we have to say the messy part.

• 34:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And it seems like you guys have a good relationship now because there are boundaries, rules, there's a way that you know that will work with your dynamic.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, bound, boundaries, I feel like is, that's just been something over the past few years that I've really learned how to implement and also be safe with. Setting a boundary feels very scary with like.

• 35:09Fearne Cotton?

  Especially with a mom. There'll be people out there listening to this going, they've got a difficult relationship with their mom or a dad, they don't know how to, to put, I don't know, the correct boundaries in that still feel familial and that there's a history, but there's a boundary.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Right. And they're really,

• 35:27Speaker 01

  everyone has a different idea of family too. There's plenty of families that are like, you just never do that with family. Like if I'm, if I'm a family member, I'm able to do whatever I want. Like we're able to have whatever relationship, you can never not talk to me.

• 35:43Fearne Cotton?

  I think that's very common.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Especially in the UK.

• 35:46Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, you know us. We'll just keep our mouths shut, nod and resent you from within. That's how we work.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  Right. I, I like.

• 35:55Fearne Cotton?

  It's so bad.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  There is this fear around them where it's like, well, when you set a boundary with someone, it means you hate them, everything is bad and you don't, you never actually want them in your life. It's, it's completely a negative thing. But I think back to what we were talking about with the intervention where these people are sitting in front of me, telling me, I can't be in their lives anymore. If I continue to exhibit this behavior, which is actively hurting myself, which in turn hurts them to watch too. And that is an ultimate boundary. And so at a smaller scale, if I'm interacting with someone or if someone's in my life who they're making decisions I don't agree with, or our relationship

• 36:41Speaker 01

  feels not conducive to either of us, or it makes me feel any type of way. Setting a boundary always is the right answer, but that like the boundary could mean many things. It doesn't have to be extreme or not, but.

• 36:58Fearne Cotton?

  It's what works for you.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  And I think once I set a boundary with my mom for the first time in our relationship, I was, I was always very scared to do that because I thought I would feel so guilty doing that with a family member. But our relationship got so much better from that. And I, and, and now that boundary, that specific boundary isn't in place anymore because it doesn't need to be. But I wouldn't have known that if I didn't put it in place in the first, in the first place. And it would have been what you were saying about, you know, the, the general idea in the UK, it's this like quiet resentment.

• 37:34Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  Where I would have felt that and, but nothing would ever improve about it. If anything, it could get worse.

• 37:41Fearne Cotton?

  Completely.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  But now because I did the harder thing, or what is seen as the harder thing, it, it changed in a beautiful way.

• 37:50Fearne Cotton?

  I guess she also has to respect it from the start and that's what makes it work is that there is a mutual understanding that this will be better for the both of us. Let's go back to the intervention because to be in a situation like that, things have got to be pretty shit. This is not like, oh, I'm just drinking a bit too much at the weekends. This is at its worst, what?

• 38:11Speaker 01

  It was, I mean, I, I couldn't go to bed sober. I remember recognizing that one night, just being like, I think I had smoked weed or something, which I didn't even like to do. And I remember doing that and like lot, getting ready for bed and being like, why? And not feeling great, feeling anxious because that's what like that always did to me. And I was like, why, why did I do that? Why am I like, I, but I could not fathom at that point, the idea of just like, it's nighttime, gonna like get in bed and go to sleep. Every night had to be not chaos, but I just couldn't be in my body. I did not wanna feel.

• 38:55Fearne Cotton?

  Well, is it like a level of escapism? I need to just numb myself?

• 38:59Speaker 01

  Yes, but it's, there's, there's not as much self-awareness about it. It, it just is what's happening. It's almost like, and a lot of addicts describe it this way, you're on like addiction autopilot where your day ends and you're just like, okay, now I gotta go get my thing and then I, um, shut off.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  But it, it isn't this switch of like, uh, at, at the end of every day, I was like, I, I feel miserable and I, I'm sure people do have that journey, but it wasn't to the point where I, I could even recognize that I was in so much pain. I was just like,

• 39:37Speaker 01

  I think at that point too, I probably still would have equated it to like, I just love to have fun. Which I'm like, okay, so fun looks like getting drunk and crying and then passing out.

• 39:49Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  What, okay, that's a different idea of fun than I had, but.

• 39:54Fearne Cotton?

  And also leading you to moments that then made you feel such horror, like nightmare moments that you'd get yourself into that you were like, why have I done this to myself?

• 40:03Speaker 01

  And sometimes you wouldn't even remember the next day until a friend maybe like gives you a look that you've upset them. And it's just this wave of, it becomes a cycle because you have this wave of shame. So we're like, what the fuck did I do? Like, why, why, why am I doing this? Like, I need to figure out what I did. I need to apologize, but also like, I, I can't even remember it. So it could have been way worse than I can even imagine. And so shame cycle, I feel so bad about myself. I better.

• 40:37Fearne Cotton?

  Let's start again.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. I remember one day, it was like a Saturday at, in college. And I was saying to a friend while I was already violently hungover from Friday. I was like, I can't believe we have to do this again tonight.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  And my friend was, I, I don't think they said anything like on the contrary of like that's, I, because again, that's where like it being in college, the lines get blurred. Where you're just like, yeah, we're, yeah.

• 41:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, the culture.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:06Fearne Cotton?

  The culture of college.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. And now I think back to that line specifically and I'm like, have to.

• 41:13Fearne Cotton?

  You can just be in your dorm and hang out.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  Just go to bed.

• 41:16Fearne Cotton?

  Just watch some Netflix.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  If you're hungover too, like.

• 41:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  I would, I would be like, the method of that day then would be like, okay, how do I make myself feel less nauseous so I can stomach more alcohol?

• 41:29Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  Which again, it's in those moments, I wasn't thinking like, yeah, that's like, there's, there's something to be worried about there. It was just purely the actual like analytical part of it of like, okay, what, what do I need to do?

• 41:46Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  But now I can see that as, as everything was, whatever pain I was feeling was just so stuffed.

• 41:56Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  Down.

• 41:57Fearne Cotton?

  One of the other important key women in this book is Lizzie, who is your therapist. And she is somebody that you first encountered at rehab.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 42:06Fearne Cotton?

  Your description of rehab towards the end of the book is unreal. Like it's so brutal parts of it. But you know, I, I thought I had a rough idea. And I know obviously like you said, there's lots of different programs, methodologies that, that you can partake in depending on where you are in the world, what you're going in for. But this was militant, to say the least. And the bit I guess that shocked me was the sort of, um, the level of accountability that you had to take was at times I'm imagining alarming for you to take on. Whether it was the, the bit I think that shocked me the most was these sorts of fake funerals that would take place.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. It, it's funny. You mentioned that to me and it's almost like the memory comes back for the first time, even though I fully wrote about it.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  Did the, like, read the audiobook for, I've talked about that plenty of times, but there were, there was so much that happened at that treatment center that

• 43:07Speaker 01

  was kind of unbelievable in a way that it is, there are stuffed memories about it all. But that

• 43:17Speaker 01

  those, by the time the, the fake funeral happened, which if, for anyone who's listening, who doesn't know what we're talking about, it is exactly what it sounds like where you walk into a room one day. We were always doing group therapy in the mornings. We had three group therapy sessions a day and

• 43:37Speaker 01

  if like the rooms were set up a certain way, it meant something different was happening that day. And that day we walked in, the rooms were all like connected and there was a literal casket like in front of the room and then a podium. And then the, one of the therapists probably like introduces what's happening. And then you have whoever's parents are there in a line, ready to read a eulogy, which I also think is like traumatizing for the parent to read too. Like to write that.

• 44:09Fearne Cotton?

  Awful.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I, we've talked about the, the writing the letters of cutting off the kid. Writing a letter, that, writing a eulogy for your child when, and also they're right in front of you. But really having to take yourself through the experience of what it would be like to lose them, which you already like, most of the parents probably already had done. But it's like, and now you have to really go there. But my thing about that specific scenario is I'm like, who is that for in, in the therapy? Like in, under the therapeutic guise, are you guys, are you guys making the parent do that? So the kid has a wake up call that they maybe haven't had yet.

• 44:48Fearne Cotton?

  That's what my assumption was.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  Which is very unfair to the parent.

• 44:52Fearne Cotton?

  Awful for the parent.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  Which that, that isn't therapeutic for them at all. I, I mean, may, uh, I don't, I don't.

• 44:59Fearne Cotton?

  That's a part of it. You're clearly looking, you're looking back on going, that, that shouldn't have happened. That was too far. Although you also do say that during your time there, you did see people leave because they were allowed to go home. And then sadly that was their end.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Which it is the truth of addiction there, which that is, there were always two sides of the coin to anything that they did there. Whereas hard as it might be to watch,

• 45:29Speaker 01

  I had an understanding as to why we were doing it. And I also like, there was not going to be a part of me stepping into that room that was going to allow myself to doubt what was happening because of how intense it was. And like, if they saw doubt on my face, that would be the topic of the conversation. They would have probably like put me in the casket.

• 45:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. I mean, there was a level of, and again, it's sort of a tactic that I'm not sure how you feel about it now, post, you know, it working and coming out of rehab. Where you were shamed for certain things and, and people were actively encouraged to shame others in the rehab facility.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was this idea of accountability and holding each other accountable. And if the therapist was saying someone did something wrong and no one else was chiming in, then none, none of us care about that person's recovery. And it would frequently, the line that would be said is like, you want them to die. Like you're, or you're, you're killing them. And like, thinking back to that, I mean, I, I laugh because it's almost, it sounds so melodramatic, but in the moment that was completely like, we, that line being said was completely serious and we had to take it seriously.

• 46:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  It was, everything was just at such a level of high stakes that you were living at such a high level of anxiety the entire time, that I had this like, uh, this click at one point where I was like, I think, I think I get one of the things that they're doing here and it's keeping us at such an incredible high level of anxiety at all times. While sober, that whenever we go out into the world and life inevitably gets a little stressful sometimes, we know we could already handle it.

• 47:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 47:17Speaker 01

  Which again, it's like getting sober, there is no perfect method for anyone and everyone needs different things. There are plenty of ways that, there are so many ways that it's exactly what I needed. And then who's to say where it maybe could have stopped? And I maybe could have like, okay, I get, I get what, I get, I, I got what I needed. I should probably now just start implementing that versus then it going too far. And, and I had gotten what I needed. And then the idea of me being a horrible person was continued to be kind of like cycled through my mind. And again, when you're 19, your brain is developing and you're learning how to interact with the world and be an adult.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  And I was just learning that the way to be an adult is like, just be, don't take up space consistently, apologize. You are always in the wrong. Always think about what you might've done to the other person. And like, if, if you want, if, if anything kind of like really good is happening in your life or you're indulging in something, you are selfish and like everything is.

• 48:28Fearne Cotton?

  So kind of weirdly good training for being really famous on TikTok.

• 48:32Speaker 01

  Right. It, it, it was that, which is why it was so horrifying to me when it was beginning. Because I was like, oh, I, something bad is about to happen. I don't deserve this. And also like, they're all going to find out that I'm actually what the, my rehab has told me, I'm actually a horrible person. Like, and I'm lying to all of them. Like all these people who are saying like, oh, yes, we love, like, love your videos. I'm like, I've, I've deceived them all. I'm a, I'm a liar. I'm a fraud and like, and something it like, it, it is all going to fall apart because good things are not supposed to happen in this way.

• 49:12Speaker 01

  And that's when I reconnected with Lizzie.

• 49:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Because I showed up on her For You page one day and we hadn't been doing therapy together for like a year. And then we started and, and she had since left that rehab place because she no longer, I mean, she maybe hadn't agreed with the methodology in the first place, but ever since then, we have now in our therapy sessions occasionally worked on undoing some of the ways.

• 49:37Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 49:38Speaker 01

  That we originally did therapy.

• 49:40Fearne Cotton?

  And I'm sure like some of it does, you know, we know what social media is like and it, you know, you say in the book and I feel similar. It's hard to tune out the negative stuff, you know, you can go looking for it if you want, you can look through thousands of lovely comments where people like what you've said, like your T-shirt, whatever, but you're, you're hunting out that person that's called you a twat or whatever it might be because you're used to that level. And I certainly feel like that still and I'm, I'm way older than you and I would like to be at a level mentally where I'm like, oh, water for ducks back. I don't care about that, but it's, it's hard. So I think that's where therapy is actually really handy when you know you like your job,

• 50:19Fearne Cotton?

  but the downside of it is people are going to give you shit, whether you've done something wrong or not. You've got to find a way to cope with that.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, it, I think in, again, everyone has a different relationship with how they can handle it. There are plenty of people who are in the entertainment industry or who maybe have a viral video and they can see a negative comment towards them and they're like, this person doesn't even know me, whatever. I'm not built that way.

• 50:46Fearne Cotton?

  Nor am I.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  And I don't know if I will ever like that, the work for me wasn't about figuring out how to be okay with it. It was just acknowledging, I'm not, I'm a soft emotional person.

• 50:58Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, same.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  And I just can't, don't look for it.

• 51:02Fearne Cotton?

  Chris, we're delicate flowers. Okay.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  I've just like, but it's this confirmation bias where like seeking that we don't even know we're seeking.

• 51:10Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  And you do want to, I, I think we want to believe what other people are saying a lot of the time. And so when they're saying something that is not great about us, my impulse is like, especially after going through this treatment center is like, okay, how do I make them happy with me? Like I've upset them. What do I do? But there's, that isn't the question to be asked.

• 51:33Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, it's not. And it's a very complicated transaction if you start getting into that. And also you do mention that as your TikTok fame and success started to really snowball and you could see this ascent, you know, these numbers climbing before your eyes, that there was a slight worry, like this is the new addiction then this is, this is what I now channel all of that energy into is more, more, more.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I knew as it was beginning, which was, that was part of why I think the treatment center had this idea about like, if something really good is happening, like if you're indulging too much, it is inherently unhealthy and bad. So while it was happening, I was like, in the, I knew the whole time, I was like, if this were happening to me while I was still in Florida, they would have made me delete the account.

• 52:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  The second that I like got any sort of validation from it. Because seeking validation was also like the devil at that time. That was why I think there was so much shame in finding some sort of success. I was like, well, I'm not supposed to do that. I'm just supposed to like live a very neutral life that doesn't ruffle anything. And it, I was recognizing the feeling within me too, where I was like, and I know that I'm really seeking this dopamine hit now. That also includes connection with other people, which was the tough part of it was I was like, I know there are so many elements to this that are okay and good.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  Connecting with people, like sharing us all relating to each other. So where, where do I stop myself? For then when it goes too far and now I'm doing it to feed this part of my brain that needs, needs it to feel good about myself, to have any sort of self-worth.

• 53:18Fearne Cotton?

  So what, where are you at with that now? Because you know, you're, you're years into it now. Do you have a healthy stance where you can see it from a distance? You can enjoy the good bits. You can occasionally feel like, oh my God, that did really well, that video. And I'm, I'm good with that.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. I think I'm, I'm a very black and white person extremist, obviously. It's like through the addiction of it all. So when I turn off of something, I will, I sometimes go way too off of it.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  And so when I was first having my journey of like, you need to step back and you need to not read the comments. I remember I was like not going on social media at all and

• 53:58Speaker 01

  my idea of it, my feeling towards it changed completely. It just wasn't something I necessarily felt was fulfilling or good because it was a dark place. And now I think I'm finally getting to this middle ground of like,

• 54:14Speaker 01

  the question in my head popped up one day of like, why would I ever try to change someone's mind? Who is determined to not like me in the first place? Why was I ever like really, why was I specifically focused on them?

• 54:29Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 54:30Speaker 01

  Versus all of the people who were like, no, no, we, we, we like you.

• 54:34Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm. Yeah. You always go for the one that you know, doesn't like you. Like that's a, that's a challenge. I'm gonna, I'm gonna force them to like me.

• 54:40Speaker 01

  Right. Or like, I will, I will figure out a way, like, I will, I will do, okay, I'll, I'll be a different person. I'll do this. Like, I'm annoying, I'm, or I'm too loud or whatever. Where you have, again, this whole group of people who are like, no, you're good. And that also like, I don't think that's necessarily a unique experience to like, being in the public eye. I think all of us, there were so many moments, me or my friends have in our lives where it's like, in a relationship or where someone obviously maybe was not good for you or didn't like you, but you have this inherent need to be like, no, because that is now they're mirroring

• 55:20Speaker 01

  what, like an idea of you towards yourself. And it's like, okay, if I can change their mind, then that must mean I'm a good person.

• 55:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  And like, they're wrong. But in a, in a parasocial relationship, on top of that, it's like, they, there, there is no necessarily real basis of disliking.

• 55:39Fearne Cotton?

  Well, they don't know you.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:40Fearne Cotton?

  They don't know the real you. So it is utterly pointless.

• 55:52Speaker 02

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• 57:56Fearne Cotton?

  How long have you been clean for now?

• 58:00Speaker 01

  Nine, it'll be nine years on September 28th.

• 58:04Fearne Cotton?

  How incredible.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  It is really wild to not remember what it's like to be drunk.

• 58:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  Especially after all these things we were talking about where I'm like, I could not go to sleep sober. That's all I was doing. I'm like, I can't even really remember it.

• 58:23Fearne Cotton?

  Nine years is a feat. It's incredible. Do you feel proud of yourself?

• 58:29Speaker 01

  Yes, I go in and out because feeling proud of myself is an idea that the rehab would have rejected. They would have been like, that's just what you're supposed to do. Pride is like, should you be proud? Think about all the things you did to make yourself sober in the first place. But I think I'm proud of like the big picture of it all, too. I think I'm able to be proud of what I see happened after that. And like, it is no surprise, none of this would have happened or would have worked. Had I been drinking, I don't think I would have been here.

• 59:07Speaker 01

  I mean, based on how quick the descent was, I was really like, I was 19 and they had done blood work when I first got to the rehab. And they were like, yeah, your liver is not looking great. And 19, your body should be like bouncing back every single time. But I was not giving it a chance to bounce back. And I was so like, my body was retaining so much water from like drinking all the time. It was just a, it's, he looks like a different person, too. But I am overall proud.

• 59:39Fearne Cotton?

  Good.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  I think there are moments where you can like, we often focus on the things that we haven't done or that we're not doing or that we could be doing better in. But there have been many moments over the past few years where I've grounded myself, brought myself back to the present and been like, the only reason you're even like having this thought or this issue or thinking like, oh, I wish I were in this position is because you've gotten so far already. Like, you should, I'm, none of this, we, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Like with, if, if I, if my friend at 19 hadn't like worked with my family to make this happen, there are so many things.

• 1:00:20Fearne Cotton?

  But also you have to have a level of dedication and discipline every day for, to continue in that way. It's not a magic spell where you cross a line and then you're good. So what do you have to ensure is in your life, non-negotiable to keep you on the straight and narrow in that way?

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  I think, thinking about what, like, I think routine was the first thing. When I got back to college, I put my head down and I did the same thing every day. Because I was like, I, I know how to do that because I know how to do routine in addiction. I know how to, as soon as the day ends, I know how to find the drink and do whatever I need to do. So let me not give myself time to even have that thought, basically, which is that necessarily the right way to go about it? Fill the day. I think when you're 20, fine, it works.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  And then there was a time, like, once I got to three or four years, I was then sober longer than I had been drinking.

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  And it became more natural to me. I wasn't thinking about it. It wasn't a hard resistance anymore because I was also never like ordering a drink at dinner. I couldn't hear. It was, I've never had a legal drink. So it was never like a, a routine that was happening like in the light with people. It was like in the dark.

• 1:01:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  In my room alone, like, so all I had to do was not get myself to that cave.

• 1:01:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  My mom had a completely different experience because she had been like, she would go out to dinners and order wine and like all of those things. And I can't imagine, that adds a complete other dynamic to it. That would be very tough. But I think that the issue that I had to hone in on more after the years of like not drinking was not engaging in behavior that felt like I was trying to fill some sort of void with it. Like what I'm, but that, you know, I've been in therapy for so long that I think if anything, I overthink so many of my actions. So now my work that I do with my therapist is like, well, what if you did just enjoy something for once?

• 1:02:32Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, just, just have a nice time.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  Enjoyed it.

• 1:02:35Fearne Cotton?

  Just enjoy it.

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I remember bringing, talking to her midway through social media. Maybe I'd been doing it for a year or two at that point. And I was like, I know this is like, I'm, I'm glad that it's happening. And I know it is like fulfilling this unhealthy part of me that like is always, there would be, there was a moment in time with social media where if I hadn't had a viral video that day, I would post again until I did, like, I was, I was posting every day. When I first started, I posted five times a day, every day for like two or three months. I'm like, how did I even think of all that?

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  What was I even doing? But that's the motivation of a 21 year old.

• 1:03:22Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  I mean, who was, we were, it was COVID, nothing else to do. But even past that, in like 2022, I was still, I could not rest until I felt like I was validated. And people were like, we see you. Yes, we agree. We're, we're feeling seen to relating. Like, I needed, I needed to have that conversation. And if for some reason the algorithm wasn't letting me, it would, I would feel this like addictive fire under me be lit. Because it was like, that is one of the things that you're not in control of. With an addiction, I can go get a drink and I can be like, great, we're set.

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  With social media, with playing the game of, of entertainment and trying to like create something that people like, it is, it's a gamble because so much, so much of the time, there will be videos that I, I don't even think about, that then a lot of people connect with, that I posted. And then there's a video where I'm like, I put so much work into it. And for whatever reason, it's, it's not what the people want to see or the algorithm doesn't want to show it that day.

• 1:04:26Fearne Cotton?

  It's a big game.

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  I think, I remember saying that to my therapist, being like, I know that this is not good, that I start feeling that. And she was like, yes, we don't want you to feel like your self-worth is based on that. But you can also recognize that that is why you're good at your job. And that's why you've gotten to the place that you've gotten.

• 1:04:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  They're like, having a little bit of that fire under you can be healthy in a way. I mean, healthy, it's like, that's where addiction is just so complicated. Because it's like, there is no right answer. What is good and what is bad, there is also like, it is a spectrum for everyone. Because there are plenty of people who like, I mean, people will ask me, now that it's been like nine years, don't you think you could probably like just go out and like have a drink? I'm like, first of all, that still doesn't sound fun to me.

• 1:05:22Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  One drink? What am I going to do with that?

• 1:05:25Fearne Cotton?

  You want 10.

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  And that's exactly what I said to people. I'm like, I'm like, we got, there is, truly, there is still no point to one drink in my head.

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  But there are like people in their lives, because I think addiction can be situational and it can be genetic. I think I got one of everything. But I think if it does come from some situation in your life, there are ways that you can process through it. And people, all people have different journeys with it, which is why it's, it's so, I think one thing that I was really focused on when writing this book is like, this is not a how to. This is not a like, if you're going through this, all you have to do is have your family have an intervention, send you down to this rehab in Florida. It's like, there are plenty of ways that exact experience caused issues that I'm still dealing with today.

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  But maybe had I gone anywhere else, I wouldn't, it wouldn't have worked in other ways. So I think the main takeaway from it is more that the ability to change will always be there, no matter how deep you feel like you've gotten yourself into that.

• 1:06:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  But what that change looks like will be different for everyone.

• 1:06:36Fearne Cotton?

  Of course. So before we finish, two big questions.

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  I'm like, we've been talking for 10 minutes only.

• 1:06:43Fearne Cotton?

  I know. This is what happens with this thing. It's time, there is no time. It doesn't exist.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:47Fearne Cotton?

  First one, we're making a happy place playlist. What song would you put on there that just makes you like, you light up when you hear it? Makes you feel great?

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  Hmm. Oh my God, there are so many. I light up.

• 1:07:03Speaker 01

  Why, it's, maybe it's because I'm talking to you that all of the songs that are running through my head are Adele. And I'm like, well, those don't like-

• 1:07:10Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, we love Adele.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  They don't light me up right away because I'm, I'm in my feels with Adele.

• 1:07:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah. That voice.

• 1:07:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh my God. Just incredible.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  I want to say Olivia Rodrigo, stupid song, the first song of her new album.

• 1:07:30Fearne Cotton?

  Love it. We haven't got that on there. So that's, that's going on.

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  It's just a beautiful, like, love song that is about another person, but like, it can be about anything.

• 1:07:40Fearne Cotton?

  Love that.

• 1:07:40Speaker 01

  About whoever. I'm not listening to a love song, thinking about someone else currently. I'm thinking about just like the world.

• 1:07:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, and yourself, quite frankly.

• 1:07:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:07:49Fearne Cotton?

  And where, Chris Olsen, is your happy place?

• 1:07:53Speaker 01

  Um, I love being, oh, this is actually the, the second time I've, I've said this on this press front where I'm like, I love being home and being alone, where no one can ask me a question.

• 1:08:08Fearne Cotton?

  Well, we will release you to your house now to, no one will bother you for the rest of the day.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  No, I got some more meetings.

• 1:08:14Fearne Cotton?

  No, I hear you. I, I don't know if you're the same as me, but I, my job is extremely social and I'm constantly talking to people, interviewing people around lots of people. And then I need to counter it by sitting in a room alone, on my own, not, I literally don't speak for hours.

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  Hours.

• 1:08:28Fearne Cotton?

  To the point where the postman will come and I don't, I can't remember how to interact. How do I say, yeah, awkward.

• 1:08:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, that'll be like when I, if I decide to make a video for the first time that day and I'm like, oh, I haven't like spoken all day. But I do, I don't know what, like, I, I always love my alone time throughout my whole life, but something about over the past few years where there's, I've just created peace in my, in my apartment.

• 1:08:56Fearne Cotton?

  Your sanctuary.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it really, it's, it's so nice. It's so, it's so nice to be, but I do love being social too. And then by the end of those social interactions.

• 1:09:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  When, when I get home, I'm not even like, oh, get me out of here.

• 1:09:12Fearne Cotton?

  I am.

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  But, right. I mean, and there are times.

• 1:09:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:15Speaker 01

  And there are times.

• 1:09:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  But the second I get home, I'm like.

• 1:09:20Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I'm bra off.

• 1:09:21Speaker 01

  I'm like, thank God.

• 1:09:22Fearne Cotton?

  Bra off, personality gone.

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  I don't even, I, one of my friends just called attention to the fact that like, I don't even turn on many of the lights when I get home. I'm just like.

• 1:09:31Fearne Cotton?

  Can't be bothered.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  I don't need, I, this is like, let it be dark.

• 1:09:35Fearne Cotton?

  Your little cocoon.

• 1:09:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, let it be dark. Let me just like, no one, I don't need to see.

• 1:09:40Fearne Cotton?

  No, your little rabbit, Warren. I love it.

• 1:09:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:42Fearne Cotton?

  Heaven.

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  My home. It's probably not too like, unique of an answer, my safe space, but.

• 1:09:47Fearne Cotton?

  It is what it is. That's your answer.

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 1:09:49Fearne Cotton?

  Um, Chris, thank you so much.

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:09:51Fearne Cotton?

  I hope you have a jolly great time in the UK. Just have a, a brilliant time, probably in the rain, let's face it.

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:57Fearne Cotton?

  But enjoy it.

• 1:09:58Speaker 01

  Thank you. Hope to see you.

• 1:09:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I'll bump into you there. See you there.

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, we'll make it happen. Thank you.

• 1:10:03Fearne Cotton?

  Thank you. Oh, thank you so much, Chris. Not only did I really enjoy that chat, I also learned a lot about Chris, which is always an interesting thing, diving into somebody else's life. And I got to go to New York with my kids, which was so great. It was very funny because normally I don't bring my kids to work because they're at school. Um, but they came to New York with me and they were sat in the studio in New York whilst we recorded it. And I mean, my kids, they don't really know what I do or like what, what this is. I'm not one of their like, cool YouTubers that they're a big fan of, obviously. I'm just like their loser mum. So they were both a bit like, what is this? And at the end, honey, went to me, oh my God, that was a really deep chat. And I was like, yeah, that's

• 1:10:46Fearne Cotton?

  kind of, that's, that's what I do. That's all it is. And she was like, wow, like, he's really lived a life. It was so funny. Her little face kind of trying to figure it all out. Um, but we had such a great trip. And as I said, right at the start of this, we also got to go and see the Happy Place billboard on Times Square, uh, which actually, to be fair, my son couldn't have given a toss about. He, uh, he was moaning that it was too busy in Times Square. Um, so lost on him for now. But anyway, a wonderful moment. Other than that, it was a real moment for the whole Happy Place team. Go Happy Place. I love my team. They are simply the best. So thank you, Chris. Thank you for letting us chat about your brilliant book. His memoir is called, I Think My Therapist Hates Me, and

• 1:11:31Fearne Cotton?

  it's out right now. If you want a good, raw, honest read, that is the book for you. I want to say a massive thanks again to Chris for joining me in New York City and to you lovely lot for coming with us on the ride too. I love you.

• 1:12:10Speaker 06

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• 1:13:10Speaker 05

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