“I did things I’d never do sober” Consent concerns and social anxiety, with Millie Gooch

How do you feel the morning after drinking the night before? For Millie Gooch the hangxiety was huge, so she stopped drinking and founded Sober Girl Society. In this chat, Fearne and Millie explore how to recognise when the silly, lols-in-the-group-chat stories from nights out have morphed into moments that are risky, dangerous, and not really you. For Millie, she had to be honest with herself about what she was trying to forget or avoid by drinking. She talks through how to get comfortable with sitting in uncomfortable emotions. Millie also explains why she didn’t know she was neurodivergent until she stopped drinking; how do the effects of alcohol get mixed up with symptoms of menopause, ADHD, and OCD? Millie’s book, Hangxiety, is out on the 8th of September. CONTENT WARNING: This episode contains frank chat about sexual assault. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Millie Mackintosh https://pod.fo/e/2a4636 Professor David Nutt https://pod.fo/e/19146b Louise Newson https://pod.fo/e/41af1b Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that helps you make the decisions that are right for you. Today, I'm chatting to Millie Gooch.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  If there was something that I'd done that I was embarrassed or ashamed about, the easiest thing for me was like, I'm just gonna drink to black it out and pretend that didn't happen. And also, like, if I'd upset someone on a night out, like, one of my friends or something, if then I was going out with them the following weekend, because I'd feel so awkward, and I'd be like, oh, do they still hate me, are they still pissed off at me? I would drink to get through that situation as well, because I couldn't sit in that discomfort and I couldn't just say the thing and apologise and hash it out. Avoidance, avoidance. So it was the perfect thing for me to just carry on in this cycle of, like, yeah, drinking to feel better and then feeling worse and just doing that on repeat every weekend.

• 0:44Fearne Cotton?

  Now, I say this in the episode, but I opened this book and started this conversation trepidatiously, because, like many of you listening, who I know, I know we've got male listeners, I love you male listeners, hello. I know we have young listeners and listeners who are older than me, but I also know that a lot of you are middle-aged women, hi, just like me, and that we really look forward to a glass of wine at the end of a hard day, and that this conversation might be something that you're like, oh, I can't hear it, it's gonna, I'll have to lose that special moment. I'm putting out the, like, opposite of a trigger warning, like, this is a conversation that is not that, and I promise you'll love it. And I say that as someone who has just got back from, I mean, I literally drank every night on holiday, I went away with my kids, and I really looked forward to that

• 1:28Fearne Cotton?

  drink in the evening, and I really bloody enjoyed it. One night, I was with some friends, drank a bit too much, obviously felt like shit the next day, but mainly, I just have the odd glass here and there. And this conversation is so not about, you should never ever drink, it's just giving us as much information as possible so we can make decisions that work for us. So I wanna put that out there. I'm going out on Thursday night, and I will definitely have a couple of drinks, even after this conversation. But what I will do is really think about everything that Millie has taught me the next day. That's the key bit for me. But hey, some of you might listen to this and think, I do wanna give up drinking, and this might be an amazing catalyst or starting point. I think this is, like, one of the

• 2:11Fearne Cotton?

  most interesting topics to deep dive into, so I really hope you enjoy it. So let's talk a little bit more about Millie. Millie Gooch stopped drinking in 2018 after recognising the impact alcohol was having on her mental health. She founded Sober Girl Society, which has gone on to become one of the biggest sober, curious female communities in the world. Her latest book is called Hangxiety: How Alcohol Messes With Your Mind. And this is what she really deep dives into in the book, is like, the neuroscience, like, what is actually happening in your brain, rather than just looking at the liver and how we might feel like shit the next day and wanna eat loads of crap food. She talks about exactly

• 2:54Fearne Cotton?

  what is going on in the mind, and I found that really interesting.

• 4:05Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

• 4:29Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, Millie.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 4:30Fearne Cotton?

  Millie, I'm so excited to talk to you today.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 4:33Fearne Cotton?

  This is a big subject. Alcohol plus is what we're talking about today.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:38Fearne Cotton?

  That's what I'm gonna say, it is. What I will say, I wanna start off on an honest note, I opened your book with trepidation.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  Fair.

• 4:46Fearne Cotton?

  I'll tell you why.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  I think a lot of people do.

• 4:48Fearne Cotton?

  A lot of people do, I'm sure. I think a lot of people will be tuning in to listen to this with trepidation.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:54Fearne Cotton?

  Here's, and it will be different for every person, here's why I felt slightly trepidatious. So for about 10 years, I barely drank. And on the outside, that's like, oh, that's a really good thing, you know, great. But I, I wasn't drinking, because I was so scared of losing control. I was like, the reins of life were being held so tightly, and I found fun, the idea of fun terrifying, the idea of being a little bit drunk terrifying, like, all of it scared the shit out of me. And now I feel like I've slightly readdressed the balance, whether that's been better or worse, I don't know. But I'm having fun, I'm having the odd night out, I'm not binge drinking or anything like I used to do back in the day. But I am kinda like loosening up a bit. So I was like, oh no, if I read

• 5:38Fearne Cotton?

  this, then maybe I won't drink again. And that is because of the association we'll talk about in a bit with alcohol plus fun.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:46Fearne Cotton?

  But that was my initial thought. You very much changed my mind, because the book is a very deep dive into lots of different subject matters. But I think, like, you know, you just said a moment ago, lots of people will approach this subject feeling slightly like, oh, is this something I wanna hear?

• 6:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. And people approach me like that as well, I think it's really interesting. I've like, I don't know, when people first start talking to me, they have these, like, real ideas of the way I'm gonna talk to them, or how I feel about them drinking, or like, I was at a wedding at the other weekend, people coming over to me being like, oh, I don't normally drink this much. I'm like, I'm not judging you, I don't care. Like, I think people do automatically think I'm gonna have a certain...

• 6:25Fearne Cotton?

  You're the booze police.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  ...view on things. And the booze police, I'm gonna go around and be like, no, not for you, not for you. And that's not it at all.

• 6:31Fearne Cotton?

  I guess you get that personally, because your interest in this subject matter is not only because of your personal story, but it's also your studies. You've got a Masters of Science in Addiction and Mental Health.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  Addiction and Mental Health, yeah. Which I wanted to go, because my, like you said, I had lived experience in it. And then I would do things and get turned down for things because I, like, you know, wasn't qualified, even though I believe, you know, if you've lived something, that's pretty much the best qualification you could probably get. And so I was like, okay, do you know what, I'm gonna like, go back to uni, I'm gonna actually properly learn and, and yeah, get, get the little check in the box. So now I have both, which is fun.

• 7:07Fearne Cotton?

  I get that. I think sometimes it feels scary to say, I've got lived experience, you know, I feel like I'm an expert in this area. People always want the science backed up. Do you feel like you personally learned a lot from doing the Masters, that you could apply to the things that you already felt like you'd lived?

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely. I think even just from a practical perspective of, like, knowing how to read studies and read research and things like that. Because with the Masters as well, like, a lot of the study is independent anyway, they're kinda like, go off, learn about this subject, do your own thing. So I think it really helped with that sort of side of things. There's so much, you know, like, misinformation out there. And before I would maybe repeat things I'd just seen on, you know, come up on Google without actually, like, properly fact-checking them. So I think it's really helped with that of, like, with the book being so rigorous and making sure that everything is, like, absolutely watertight. So I think it's really helped with that particularly.

• 7:56Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And I think you relaying that information then gives everybody, whether we believe we've got an issue with alcohol on any level or not, the information to really ascertain, you know, as to where we stand with that subject, because it's such a complicated subject matter, that everybody's got, like, a cultural belief around, there'll be a sort of familial essence of how we were brought up around booze, what our social life is like and how we like to socialise. It's so ingrained in British culture. Let's, just for people that don't follow you online and don't know about your work, let's talk about your personal story first. So when did you first start drinking and how did that feel?

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I think I probably started drinking when I was about 17, very lightly. And then I always say I really started drinking when I went to uni. And that was just such, like, binge-heavy drinking. I worked in a bar that exclusively did shots and Jägerbombs, which...

• 8:52Fearne Cotton?

  Whoa.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, there was like a £10 deal, and it was like, two shots, two Jägerbombs and two drinks for like a £10.

• 8:57Fearne Cotton?

  I can't even smell a Jägerbomb.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  No.

• 9:00Fearne Cotton?

  I did some damage in that area.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:02Fearne Cotton?

  And I cannot, that smell. But...

• 9:04Speaker 01

  I'm with you.

• 9:04Fearne Cotton?

  And Sambuca.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  Sambuca, I'm the same. It's weird, probably tequila as well, I think all of them have scarred me. But I actually did some, like, judging for a non-alcohol drinks competition there, the non-alcohol Sambuca. And I said, oh, I'm really sorry, I actually can't try that.

• 9:17Fearne Cotton?

  No way.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  Because it was horrible.

• 9:18Fearne Cotton?

  Rancid.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  But yeah, that's when I started drinking. So worked in a bar, went from basically being like a nothing drinker to like a three, four night a week binge drinker. And I went to uni when Geordie Shore was at, like, the height of it. So it was like, going out, getting mortal, wearing two pairs of eyelashes at the same time. Like, it was that kind of era. And I just loved it. And it kinda followed on from that, like, 90s Liddette era. And, you know, I was very much like, I don't care, I just wanna be a loud-mouthed partygoer. And like, loved it until it started not really working for me anymore.

• 9:48Fearne Cotton?

  And what age do you think that was?

• 9:50Speaker 01

  I think, I would actually say probably straight away. I think I knew that I didn't drink like everyone else. I drank because I wanted to get absolutely shitfaced. I didn't drink because I wanted a cup of drinks and to get a little bit loose. I just wanted to blackout, like, that I think I knew straight away. And then, nothing really scary happened, until I would say probably my early twenties, after I, like, left uni and went out into the world and got a job and things like that. I think that's when I really started to think I actually am a little bit worried about where this could go.

• 10:22Fearne Cotton?

  And do you, because one of the things you talk about is semantics, and that seems to be a bit of a... It's an important issue because it's a bit of a block. I think culturally we either think, I haven't got a problem with alcohol or you're an alcoholic and there's nothing in between. And actually, the new term A U D.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Yeah.

• 10:41Fearne Cotton?

  Um, alcohol use disorder.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Yep, now it is.

• 10:44Fearne Cotton?

  Is something that is much more medically used now for people that maybe were where you're at. Like, I'm not waking up and drinking a shot of vodka straight away or a pint of whatever. But you know that the the balance might need to be addressed.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I think it holds so many people back. And even like for me, I, it was permeating every part of my life from like mental health, physical health, finances, relationships. And then people will be like, oh, you're not that bad. Just because I wasn't like waking up and being like, oh, quick, first thing I'm gonna do is have a, have a drink. So I, I think the terms, it's really helpful that it's shifting. That said, I would never stop anyone using whatever term they want to use for themselves. But sometimes it's just a bit more helpful so that maybe people in those sort of like grey areas can actually identify this isn't working for me. Maybe I need to do something about it.

• 11:31Fearne Cotton?

  It feels like culturally, this is a moment of shifting. Because certainly like the eras you've just mentioned, there was the Geordie Shore era. I was definitely that post nineties Ladette era. Or maybe I was, I was probably in that, actually.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  I'm quite old, yeah.

• 11:47Fearne Cotton?

  Um, but you know, we all started drinking in the park when we were fourteen. You know, we would go into our parents' alcohol cupboards, mix together any old shit, Pernod, like the most horrendous concoctions and be sipping it like, oh, like the worst thing ever. But it was all part of, we lived in the suburbs, this is just what you did, this was a Friday night in the park in Rice Slip. That's how everybody congregated. And then I was going out a lot to gigs and stuff in that Ladette era. And, you know, we were looking up to people, and I'm not throwing any shade on the people I'm about to mention because I love them with every inch of my heart. But like Zoe Ball and Sarah Cox, they were out there at the gigs, having a great time. And we were like, I wanna be like them.

• 12:31Fearne Cotton?

  And that was the culture. That was, and then, you know, your culture was uni, binge drinking, Geordie Shore. I feel like now we're in this new bit where younger people certainly are slightly more aware of all of the repercussions, whether it's the fallout the next day, the health repercussions. We did not have that knowledge. No one back then was saying, like, everyone would just wake up and laugh about what a silly tip we'd been the night before. It was all a big joke. I think this feels like the time where things are, like the tectonic plates are moving.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely. I, I think it's hard because I think we're also weirdly seeing the pendulum starting to swing back. I think the last couple of years have been this very like era of self-optimisation. And I think unfortunately sobriety has been kind of like wrapped in that or like not drinking because I don't think you're a project to be, you know, consistently worked on. So I'm very much against this kind of like constant self-optimisation. But so I think we're seeing a pushback to that. But at the same time, like you say, I think people have so much awareness. But I also think the landscape has changed. Like when I went to uni, we had digital cameras. We didn't like, you have to sit there the next day and like manually upload your photos. No one could just take a picture of you and then it was up within five minutes. So I think, you know, there's things to feel bad about the next day now of like, oh, what if someone got a video of me

• 13:51Speaker 01

  doing X, Y, Z. I think there's that like fear of instant documentation. I also think, you know, cost of living crisis is massive. We could go out and drink and we wouldn't get into a huge amount of debt. Now it's like, oh, the next day they're feeling even worse because they don't have that money to be spending on that night out. So I think there's so many like factors that are changing the landscape. But I think we are also now seeing this like pushback to that clean girl aesthetic almost that we've been seeing.

• 14:16Fearne Cotton?

  It's always the way, isn't it? There's this cultural pendulum that swings and it goes really, really far this way, sometimes in a great way. Like you're saying, maybe the, you know, the whole sobriety narrative has had a really great sort of moment of being highlighted. And then people go, oh, fuck that, I'm sick of it. And then it swings back and it needs to kind of end up somewhere in the middle where actually we're just able to have sensible conversations about all of it and get everything out on the table. I think one thing that many people will feel when it comes to alcohol is that, you know, for like, I don't know, knackered mums usually, the story is you get home, you know, kids are going nuts, whatever, and you have that glass of wine and it takes the edge off.

• 14:57Fearne Cotton?

  Like me and my friends must have said, take the edge off, eight trillion times in the last fourteen years.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Is this mythical edge? You're like, what is this edge?

• 15:06Fearne Cotton?

  Mythical edge. But what I will say, and I'm guilty of this, two weeks ago, I'm not very good on the first two days of a holiday. My anxiety is nuts. Like I am hypervigilant, I'm literally looking for danger everywhere. And I know that this is all boils down to an anxiety about certain things. But it was so bad. On that first night, my mates arrived and met me on the holiday and I was like, oh my God, okay, thank God, I've got other people here. We drank nearly a magnum of rosé between three of us. Like, that is not okay. But I felt less anxious.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, you ordered that, do you?

• 15:43Fearne Cotton?

  I, I did feel less anxious. And I think it's moments like that where you think, I just need to not be in this hypervigilant state. And that I know that a rosé will take that edge off. That's the bit that I'm like, oh my God, I don't know how I would not do that at this point in my life.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that is, I think that's it for so many people. And it was for me as well. I, my brain is just constant twenty-four seven telling me the worst things, being an over thinker, like anxiety through the roof. And drinking was always the thing that just switched my brain off. And so that was the hardest thing for me. And like, although I felt better when I stopped drinking because I literally wasn't going out and getting hammered every weekend, I also all of a sudden had to deal with those things without alcohol. And it is horrendous. Like, it's so difficult because you're left with your feelings. I had to like go into therapy. I started having panic attacks again because I like, I didn't know how to deal with my emotions or like sit with them. And that is something that has taken so much time to actually learn,

• 16:46Speaker 01

  right, this feeling will pass. And it always does. But sitting with it is so difficult. And that is why so many of us go, no, do you know what? And I think like these days it's so easy to, we always want a quick fix for everything. We live in that like instant gratification, like in society. If it's not that, it's like we can quickly scroll and do something. We have like this sort of almost inability to sit with our feelings. I'm even, just because alcohol isn't my thing now, it doesn't mean I don't have other things. If I'm really, really stressed, I'll be like, right, I'm gonna, you know, mainline this cake or whatever. Like, there, there'll be so many other things. And I think it, that is a really difficult thing for people. And it is cultivating that skill of being able to be like, this feeling will pass. But it's also not an awful thing for you to do if you're like, no, that's actually made me feel better.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  It's just that in the long run, the actual science is that it's likely to make your anxiety worse.

• 17:36Fearne Cotton?

  Of course. I mean, the next day you wake up and you've got to deal with it all over again. And I love, because you say in the book, eighty-five percent of changing your relationship with alcohol is learning to sit with discomfort. And I think that is such an important notion for us to remember, even outside of the alcohol conversation, whether it is like anything we know that long-term makes us actually feel worse, it's really important for us to keep that in mind. And I'm talking about even like real nuanced moments, as in you feel like shit and your instinct is, I don't want to feel like shit as quickly as possible. So I'm going to blame somebody else.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:15Fearne Cotton?

  It's your fault I feel like this. It's you. I think it even boils down to that. So this is actually such an important lesson for all of us to learn in life, whether it's you reach for a bottle of wine, you reach for a chocolate bar, you wanna blame somebody else, you send someone a shitty email.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:31Fearne Cotton?

  It's, we want the relief. And actually, the biggest lesson we can all learn is just to sit in the feeling of, oh God, this feels awful.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it does feel awful. And that's the horrible thing. It's kind, you just have to sit with it. And I do think it is like a skill of the longer you do that, I find it easier now to move on from things. Like I used to be quite a reactive person, like you said, I was like, I would wanna fire off that email or I'd be angrier. When things happen to me now, I feel like I'm so much better at just sitting there and going, okay, let's just like, let this pass. And then after a while it passes and I'm like, okay, cool, I'll move on with my life now. And I feel like that has been a thing that I have learned through, through not doing this. And I think that's a big thing. But it's so hard. And like, I think, again, and we live in a society now, even say with alcohol, you can get it delivered to your house. If you want relief,

• 19:20Speaker 01

  you can get that so much quicker than you can get help or be able to sit through that feeling. So that's, I think, a lot of it, what it boils down to is just we hate being uncomfortable. And we hate being uncomfortable in a social situation. So that's why so many of us like, quick, I've, I've got to have this drink. And like, I think the thing I've learned as well is I, I get more comfortable in a socia, like a social situation without alcohol. It's just about, oh, finally seeing someone that I can have a good conversation with. I get used to the surroundings. I feel more comfortable. I, I breathe now. I'm, I'm okay now. But a lot of us will just reach for alcohol because we don't believe we have that within ourselves to actually just, yeah, chill out after a while.

• 19:59Fearne Cotton?

  Well, one of the experts you speak to in the book suggested that when it comes to social anxiety, which a large portion of people watching or listening to this will be like, yeah, that's me. I do not like parties. I find even talking to my mates a nerve-wracking thing. I, I have that. I, I constantly have a fear that I'm gonna say something fucking stupid or I'm gonna. Upset somebody and that that hyper awareness has never really left me. But the expert, Josh.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  Josh Fletcher, yeah.

• 20:25Fearne Cotton?

  Josh Fletcher.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  He's great.

• 20:26Fearne Cotton?

  He says in the book, the best thing you can do in that situation is to tell the other person, I'm fully anxious. And it, it makes perfect sense. I had this again when I was going on holiday and I knew I was going to have this 48 hours of feeling like checking windows and doors eight trillion times and just being nuts. And my therapist said, as soon as your mate arrives, just tell her, just say, by the way, first 48 hours, I am insanely anxious. And as soon as I said it, she was like, oh, God, I get that. Don't worry about it. And I was like, what? Oh, okay. So this is all, this is all fine.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:58Fearne Cotton?

  Like, it's just the fear of people not knowing that about you, or people assuming that you're fine, but you're treading water underneath the surface. It's just saying the thing.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I think all, all the while, otherwise it's in you. Like even when I got here, I, I think I've learned that from Josh as well. I just said to you, I'm really nervous because I thought otherwise, I'm just like inside internally spiraling. And the minute you get it out, it's like you sort of like pop the bubble of it.

• 21:22Fearne Cotton?

  Totally.

• 21:23Speaker 01

  And it just disperses it. And then everyone's like, oh my God, don't be nervous. You're all right. I don't know. It puts you on a human connection. And I find if I just, you know, it's that whole problem shared as a problem half kind of thing. I think the minute you just speak it into existence, it takes the like, the internal fear out of it. So I do it all the time. If I'm like feeling overwhelmed in a situation, I'll just say to my friends, listen, I'm all right. But I'm just feeling a bit overwhelmed. I'll be all right in a minute. Just let me like, give me five. And I think as long as you've got those like people that you feel like you can do that with, I think that is like the best thing you can do is just.

• 21:56Fearne Cotton?

  So important.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:57Fearne Cotton?

  So important.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  Words, get them out.

• 22:00Fearne Cotton?

  Get them. Yeah, just say the thing.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:02Fearne Cotton?

  Say the thing. It'll always be received better than you think it's gonna be.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 22:05Fearne Cotton?

  If they're the right people.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

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• 23:41Fearne Cotton?

  So going back to your story for a moment. So you knew that drinking wasn't working for you, potentially from the minute you started drinking. I definitely did not have that realisation. I mean, sometimes I'm like, have I even had it now? I still need to have the realisation. But my drinking is like very, very moderate these days. Back in the day, I would binge drink. Absolutely. It was all part and parcel of being in my twenties and the social scene that I was in. I had no clue, but I certainly, before this phrase was coined, experienced hangxiety. For you, what was that? What did that feel like when you woke up the next day?

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, for me, it was quite extreme. So I would wake up and I quite often had blacked out. So I would like not remember what happened. So I was like filling in these gaps of what happened, is everyone annoyed at me? But then my thoughts would like spiral. So I'd be like, what if I did something crazy and no one's telling me? What if everyone is really annoyed at me? I would like text Uber drivers that had brought me home, like irrationally and be like, was I okay? Was I aggressive in the? I never got a reply because I was probably like, what the hell is this person talking about? But I would just like, my brain would take me to these like irrational places, very similar to like quite OCD thoughts manifesting for me. And then, yeah, just also feeling really, really low, worthless, awful,

• 25:01Speaker 01

  shame quite a lot because I'd be like, why can't I just drink like a normal person? Like, why do I always take it too far? And if I had upset someone, which I had done often, the shame about that and feeling awful about that or ruining someone's birthday or my own birthday or all of those things. So that was, that was it for me. It was just these awful thoughts. And then they would veer into the extreme of like suicidal ideation on those days when I just thought like, this is awful. I don't want to live. And to your brain to go to that place that you just can't bring it back is, is terrifying. Because then like five days later, you're like, oh, I feel all right now. I feel normal. So it's, for me, it was so scary that my brain had the ability to take me to those places on a hangover.

• 25:41Fearne Cotton?

  And I guess also scary to know that your brain would then go, but I'm gonna drink again on Friday.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Because I think especially if there was something that I'd done that I was embarrassed or ashamed about, the easiest thing for me was like, I'm just gonna drink to black it out and pretend that didn't happen. And also like if I'd upset someone on a night out, like one of my friends or something, if then I was going out with them the following weekend, because I'd feel so awkward and I'd be like, oh, do they still hate me? Are they still pissed off at me? I would drink to get through that situation as well because I couldn't sit in that discomfort and I couldn't just say the thing and apologise and hash it out. Avoidance, avoidance. So it was the perfect thing for me to just carry on in this cycle of like, yeah, drinking to feel better and then feeling worse and just doing that on repeat every weekend.

• 26:22Fearne Cotton?

  Was this a slow realisation or was there like something that catalyzed you going, and I've stopped today?

• 26:27Speaker 01

  Hmm. There was a few things. So ironically, my like last hangover wasn't even that awful, but I woke up and like my friends told me all these ridiculous things that I'd done. Like apparently I didn't want, I never wanted to leave. I was always wanted to be the last on the dance floor. So they had to like drag me home and I really showed off and like said horrible things to them. And they went to get some food and we were in an Uber and my friend had a burrito and I just took the burrito and just lobbed it out the window, which I was like, I would never do that in a million years. So I'm such a like, like sensible person. And I just, and that was just a silly thing. But I woke up and I just thought, it's ridiculous. I don't remember the whole night. They're pissed off with me because I ruined another night. But there had to have been a lot of other scary things, like waking up and being like, how

• 27:11Speaker 01

  did I get here? Waking up and there being someone next to me that I didn't know. Like just worrying, like my mum forever was just terrified that I was gonna get like kidnapped. And I would just get in around in people's cars and just like, there were so many dangerous things that I did while I was drinking. But I think because I was so ashamed, I couldn't even face them. So it was weird on that hangover that I was like, I'm, I'm gonna do this.

• 27:33Fearne Cotton?

  Did you believe in that moment that you could?

• 27:36Speaker 01

  Not really, but I'd had this weird like fate moment of like two weeks before I was so hungover on the tube and I opened a copy of Stylist and there was an article from Catherine Gray, who I know you spoke to.

• 27:47Fearne Cotton?

  Love her.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  Love her. I'm obsessed. And she had written this article about her new book, The Unexpected Show of Things Over. So then when I had that hangover, I downloaded it and I just, I was crying, like, I was like, this is me. This is my life. And that was the first time that then something actually was like, maybe I need to, if this person has changed, I think this is probably a good idea that I do this as well. So I think the universe sent me a little, a little sign that, that time.

• 28:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. Was there, was there a period where, I'm thinking of a lot of women of my age who'll be listening to you speak will have had the burrito out the window moment. Like back in the day, all of that stuff was so commonplace that we would do the most absurd things. And we, to this day, would probably still have a little chortle about it. But I think when you're on a bit of a journey to make a big change and to think, I'm going to deal with my anxiety and anything else that I'm dealing with in life without booze, you do have to start taking those things seriously. Like you, you can, you've had a laugh about them and your mates go, oh, you chucked my burrito out the window

• 28:52Fearne Cotton?

  and everyone's lolling on a WhatsApp group. But then privately, you have to mull over it with a different tone, I'm imagining.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's really hard because I, there is an element, I still laugh about those things with my friends and I've made such peace with those things. But I think the next day I wasn't finding them funny and, but I was just laughing with everyone else. Now I can really see the funny side. But the next day I'd just be like, oh, that's so embarrassing. That's really mortifying. I like, that just doesn't feel aligned with who I am. And because I couldn't remember these things either, I would like, then I would spiral about, okay, but what else did I did? That's just what they're telling me. So it wasn't fun for me the next day, but I was laughing along with everyone else, like, ha, ha, ruined my life again. Lol.

• 29:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  And I was miserable. I was so miserable, deep down. Like I've definitely made peace with those things and I'm able, so I never want to be like, oh, it's not funny because a lot of it is funny, but there were a lot of things that were not funny.

• 29:45Fearne Cotton?

  And like you say, if you're waking up thinking. I think that's so key, what you've just said, that doesn't align with like who I am. I think they're the moments that make me, I mean, I've probably made peace with a lot of them, but if there were to ever be a 3am wake up and like, oh my God, I did that thing. It's exactly that. It doesn't align with who, what you, your values are, who you believe you are when you're straight and sober, to then do something completely off piece. Doesn't feel funny. It feels bloody horrible. One of the points of writing this book for you is not just your own personal journey, but it's to interrogate why alcohol is taken often out of the mental health conversation. Why do you think it is?

• 30:25Speaker 01

  I think there's so many things. I think the biggest one is like, as soon as you go to talk about this conversation, you'll be labelled preachy, the fun police, trying to ruin everyone's party. Like, I can literally be just having the most sensible nuanced conversation with someone who, I don't care if they drink, like, I don't care about their relationship with alcohol. And someone will comment something like, oh, I bet she needs fun at parties. Like, it's just an instant reaction that we can't have sensible conversations about this topic without being labelled one of those things. I think that's one of the big things. And then I think the other one probably is that we know that affects our mental health, but the world is such a bin fire that we're like, this is the one thing that we've got. And people don't want to interrogate that, like, further part of maybe it's making things worse

• 31:09Speaker 01

  because in the moment it is relief and things are hard and life is hard. And so I think there's so many elements to it. And then I think also you have like an alcohol industry perspective as well. They're this, you know, huge conglomerate that are changing new messaging now to be like, we all need to be way connected and, and we do that through drinking and stuff. So I think that there's so many reasons why we just sort of like, oh, we'll just leave that out of it.

• 31:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we don't look at it.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:34Fearne Cotton?

  Because I think the feeling I got from reading your book is, is you're not saying everyone has to stop drinking. It's have awareness of what it's doing. And you break down exactly what's going on in every element of our brain, let alone our physical bodies. Because I think when it comes to alcohol, the conversation thus far has been very liver centric. Like, look at what's happening to your liver and it's all liver fear. And actually you're going, this is what's happening to your neurotransmitters. And that's certainly not something I've seen brought into the conversation before with booze.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, because, and I think we're, we're quite like neuroscience savvy these days. I feel like we never used to, I never had the word neuroscience.

• 32:12Fearne Cotton?

  No, or dopamine, or like any of it. I had no idea.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  No, we just didn't know any of it. And I think people are, are starting to like, want to be part of that conversation now and understand. And that's all I want to say is like, we are drinking and there's not many other things that you would willingly take without knowing what it's doing to you. And I think, you know, we're now a nation of like label checkers and we're, but with alcohol, we're like, yeah, give it here. And like, I mean, alcohol doesn't even have to have a label on it of what ingredients are in it. So you have no idea what you're drinking. But I at least want people to know what it's doing to them so that it's more for me that if then they feel a certain way the next day, they can understand why they feel that way. And not because I'm a terrible person, because I've got no willpower, because I'm all these things. Like, part of it is to show this is so scientific, you don't need to feel ashamed about this

• 33:00Speaker 01

  because it's made you act this way because of X, Y, Z, it's in your brain, not because you're a horrible person. So I think that's, and that's not to say there's no like responsibility or accountability or anything like that. But I felt such shame about the way that alcohol made me act. And like, I would wake up the next day and not remember what had happened and I had no idea why. And now I know why.

• 33:19Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm, such an important ingredient. You mentioned Professor Nutt in the book, who we've had on the podcast. So I urge anyone who's interested in this subject matter to look back. He was mainly talking about psychedelics on the podcast. It was fucking fascinating.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:32Fearne Cotton?

  But he said exactly that, you know, he was assigned by the government back in, I think it was the nineties, to come up with this sort of Richter scale of how severe certain drugs were and alcohol was in the mix of that. And he was like, it's by far one of the most dangerous for all sorts of reasons. But obviously that was all kicked out the window and he was sacked. You know, his story is out there for everybody to go and Google. I won't say the whole thing now. And it's a fascinating episode. You were so right, like the framing of alcohol is unusual in terms of, we don't know what's in it and we certainly don't know what it does to us. But culturally, it's absolutely accepted and a lot of the time pushed, you know, if you're out and you are, you know, when I wasn't drinking, I would always get either, why, why? Like, what, are you pregnant? Be like, no, I'm not pregnant. I've just, I'm not drinking.

• 34:17Fearne Cotton?

  Or it would be, um, oh, come on, like just loosen up a bit. Like that was, they were the only two comments I ever got. It was never intrigue into why I decided to stop drinking for a bit.

• 34:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is interesting. I think there has been weirdly like more intrigue lately when I tell people. Because I think people are thinking about it more themselves. But I would say the majority of when I tell new people I don't drink, that's, it's always like, why? And I always say, it's like ironic, if someone, if I offered you a cigarette and you said no, I would be like, why? Like, I just assume you're a non-smoker like that. And I assume I know why you probably don't smoke. Like, there always has to be a reason why you don't drink. And, you know, for a lot of us, there is a reason. But it's weird that there should have to be a reason why you don't drink.

• 35:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, exactly. And again, I think a lot of people attach that to, oh, you must have had a big problem with alcohol, rather than looking at the varying gradient of where you might sit in that. Like, oh, it just, it was not working for me. And that full stop, like that that is enough. You also address lots of the myths that we commonly, they're just sort of phrases. I've already said one of them, take the edge off the case. But the nightcap is a big one. That is a load of old baloney.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  Yes, sadly. So alcohol, there's kind of half-truth in it. And this is where a lot of it has come from. Alcohol can help you fall asleep because it relaxes you. It's kind of like akin to a sedative. Your body will chill out and it will help you fall asleep. We kind of now have the research that actually alcohol really like disorganises and fragments your sleep. And it can make you, you know, the next day more emotionally reactive, more stressed. You don't get as much quality sleep when you're drinking. So although it might help you fall asleep, it's not going to help you have a good night's sleep, which is why you could literally be asleep for like eight hours after you've had a big night out, you've passed out, but the quality of your sleep will be completely disrupted. So unfortunately, it's not, it's not good for your sleep.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  But we still have this, like, when I was kind of looking at the book, I Googled like, you know, like nightcap menus in London and there's like so many bars that still have these like nightcap menus. But unfortunately alcohol is not good for your sleep.

• 36:25Fearne Cotton?

  No, and that is, what era of history is the nightcap? Is that Victorian, predates Victorian?

• 36:30Speaker 01

  Around there. And then I think it's sort of like really got cemented with like the golden age of Hollywood and having nightcap and like Sherlock Holmes winding down by the fire.

• 36:39Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, like certain eras of history would give booze to kids.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, which was a really interesting one when I was reading it, but they were saying it was like one of the best sedatives for like, for, to give it to fussy babies to help them fall asleep. And it's like, oh my God, we live in a different era.

• 36:55Fearne Cotton?

  I'm sure one of my nans would say something about brandy and kids. Like, I'm sure, it's not that far back.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  No, no, it's not, like my nan, it wasn't with kids, but she would always say like, if there was a lightning storm, she was like, well, we've got to get the brandy out. Now I think I've like, why?

• 37:10Fearne Cotton?

  The lightning?

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Like, why? So it was lightning, she was like, we've got to get the brandy out. Now I think.

• 37:14Fearne Cotton?

  Any excuse.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, settle the nerves.

• 37:17Fearne Cotton?

  Um, another one is that it brings out your true self, that we have this weird feeling that when we're drunk, we're loose lipped because we're saying all the stuff we've been too scared to say. True or false?

• 37:29Speaker 01

  So I would say there is a slight, again, true element in it. Because I think after like a couple of drinks, you might have a little bit more kind of like confidence to say the thing that you've been like scared to say to your friend. Or maybe you'll snog someone that you've been too scared to say. So there is that element. But then I think, once you're at that point where you're really drunk, you can say all sorts of garbage that you don't mean. So alcohol interferes with your prefrontal cortex, which is the part of your brain that's like really rational, weighs up right or wrong, helps you make decisions and it can interfere with that. So you might say things, do things, not be able to understand what someone is saying to you and take it wrongly or the wrong intention and things like that. And you don't have as much of a filter. You might just say things that you don't mean

• 38:14Speaker 01

  that could be complete garbage. It kind of stops you being you, I think. Because normally you would like rationalise and go, oh, this isn't a good thing to do. I don't want to do this. And I would upset that person. I would do that. And your brain goes, no, this is a great idea. So I think again, there's like a tiny, tiny bit of truth in it. But then once you get past a certain point, I did so many things I would never do in a million years sober. I don't think it brings out the true you at all. And I'm weird set for a second.

• 38:39Fearne Cotton?

  That's why these myths are interesting to break down because the nuanced conversation around it is so important. That it's not always black and white. Like, yes, like you said, it might help you fall asleep immediately. But the quality of sleep, like that's why this stuff's got to be discussed rather than a headline that someone reads and then they're scared shitless or they think that's load of shit straight away.

• 38:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:57Fearne Cotton?

  You've got to be able to interrogate each of these myths. And again, like, look at the, the brain science behind it and see what's going on.

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• 40:10Fearne Cotton?

  One of the stats that I really, really liked, and again, many of my listeners will fall into this category, in a very large survey, one in three women increased drinking during menopause. What did that study reveal to you?

• 40:24Speaker 01

  I think that so many women, but also people in general, use alcohol to cope. And that was one of the biggest themes through the book, not just for menopause, but for every kind of mental health condition. I spoke to people with PMDD, OCD, PTSD, all of them. And everyone was saying the same thing, that alcohol was to use for relief. And I think that is like so strong across the board with so many people. But in so many of those areas, it also kind of like intensified things. So we have research that shows that alcohol can like intensify a lot of menopause or perimenopausal symptoms. So in the long run, again, it can slowly kind of make things worse until you get to a point where you might not understand what is menopause symptoms and what is alcohol menopause symptoms. So you can get in this

• 41:09Speaker 01

  cycle quite easily. And it was the same with, say, something like OCD, where drinking would make OCD worse. And then they would drink to find relief and the cycle would keep going. So in so many of those conditions, people were getting in these like cycles of relief, it feeling worse, and then finding it really hard to untangle that, or stop drinking because it initially was working and giving them relief in that meantime.

• 41:32Fearne Cotton?

  How interesting, because it then totally clouds your clarity in terms of, you know, if you want to go to the doctors because you've got perimenopausal symptoms, but you don't know which are which, that's really confusing. The other thing for me when I read that, I felt really sad reading that stat, because it speaks to a much larger problem, which is just the pressure that women of a certain age, menopausal age, are usually lumbered with. Not only the physicalness of going through the menopause or perimenopause. We had Dr Louise Newson on not long ago, who was exceptional at talking about all of that. So again, please go and listen to that if you're interested. I am like, pin me into that chat. I am like the absolute core audience for that exact conversation.

• 42:16Fearne Cotton?

  But also the fact that women of that age usually have so much on their plates, whether it's still child rearing, often parents that are also maybe vulnerable or unwell. And we all know, and again, it's like a generalisation, I feel like I have to put that in brackets, because there are, you know, men who are in heteronormative relationships, who want to create more balance. But a lot of the time, women are emotionally carrying all of it. And then they're like, I need that glass of fucking wine at the end of the night because I'm at breaking point daily. And sort of culturally, that is just an issue that is not looked at. We just put our fingers in our ears and our head in a bucket of rosé and hope that it will go away one day. And it's not.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  No. And it's for that and for all of those conditions, the kind of overarching theme is that, you know, alcohol substances, whatever it may be, is easy to access and support for so many people. And like, you are just finding people who desperately need help, but don't have the capacity for it, don't have time to wait on a NHS waiting list, and so are turning to alcohol in the meantime. And I think one of the things I do feel quite strongly about, but is again, one of those things that when you start talking about it, it's like preachy, is that I hate that there is kind of an industry profiting off of this and people struggling, whether that's with the menopause, whether a mental health condition. And quite a lot of the time in these instances, it is women. And the alcohol industry know that. And they have, you know, targeted women with a lot of their products. And so I find that one hard sometimes to talk about, because I'm

• 43:42Speaker 01

  like, it really makes me sad that when these people are struggling, there is someone profiting from that. And that feels really hard. And I think one of the things I talk about in the book about, like, we just need so much more, you know, help with mental health services and neurodevelopmental services and women's health services and all those things, because I think it'll also cut down on, you know, the traffic we have in like people waiting for addiction services, because so many of those people are people who are struggling with something else and have turned to alcohol as a result.

• 44:10Fearne Cotton?

  It's like a big old vicious circle, the whole thing. I mean, and you talk about, you know, yes, there'll be a lot of people out there who'll be really wanting to maybe reflect on all of this afterwards. I'm one of them. Like, you know, how do I feel the next day? All of this stuff that is very everyday. But then also, of course, there are severe problems caused by alcohol. And I'm not only talking about in terms of us as individuals, systemically and internationally, we know that there are big issues, the repercussions of drinking. One of them for the UK is the strain on the NHS. And you, you deep dive on this one, like, that is a real problem.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. The cost of it, the like taking up beds, you know, it's really hard because we should have a service that is equipped to look after everyone. People shouldn't have to stop drinking just to save the NHS. But the reality is, it is costing the NHS so much money. But also, like, you know, A and E services being absolutely soaked up with kind of like alcohol related things, the amount of beds in hospitals being taken up by things that are alcohol related. And we just find it hard to talk about as a society. But even the cost of social services, the cost of, you know, policing and things like that, it's costing us so much. But, you know, the alcohol industry kind of go, well, you pay loads of taxes, it's fine. But, you know, it shouldn't, it shouldn't necessarily be that way. And I think these are the kind of conversations that are so

• 45:32Speaker 01

  important to have. But again, get drafted in with, you know, being preachy, whatever. And I think we look at so many different industries and we're so politically savvy these days. But when it comes to this conversation, we kind of just want to ignore it, which is really difficult. I mean, even, I don't know if you saw one of the Green MPs was talking about the fact that she doesn't think MPs should be allowed to drink in Parliament just before they vote. And so many people were like, oh, God, she's like, trying to take away their, like, take away their right to drink. Who else, you know, like drinks and then decides on like, major decisions in the country. But these things are like so ingrained. And we just think that they're normal, because that's the way it's like always been. And she got absolutely vilified. And all she was saying was, I don't think MPs should be drinking in the Westminster bars just before they vote on these really important decisions.

• 46:17Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, agreed. I mean, I'm literally just some random person that sits in this tiny room talking, but I would never drink before doing this. There's no way. I want to be as clear headed as humanly possible. And even when I was like in my twenties, I would never go to do a Radio One show. I might be hungover. I wouldn't drink before going on air. Like, that to me seems absurd. So that is mad that she got any heat at all. Another point that you make, and this is something that we very recently culturally experienced, is we all know that after big football tournaments, games, domestic violence rises, that is a stat that we see again and again. We've just had the World Cup, we get all those stats afterwards. Again, what's missing from that conversation is alcohol.

• 46:58Fearne Cotton?

  That's not put into the why that, that is happening, why that statistic is, is visible to us.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely. And I think it's important to be really clear that I never would ever say like alcohol causes domestic violence. The cause of domestic violence, you know, is the person doing the domestic violence act. But it can definitely kind of exacerbate people's anger and their moods and their emotional reactions. And I think it is important to talk about that. And how much alcohol is advertised during, you know, those tournaments? I think we can't completely leave it out altogether. But I'm aware it's also quite a contentious topic, because when you talk about it, you don't ever want to look like you're saying, oh, this is the reason and, and give, you know, men or whoever it may be, an excuse for their domestic violence. But it is still a factor in the same way

• 47:46Speaker 01

  that football is a factor as well. So I think it's important to talk about that. And, you know, should we allow alcohol sponsorships during those tournaments? Should pubs limit maybe how much they're, they're letting people drink during that time? Like, obviously, again, you don't want to take it away from people, but there's still conversations that maybe we need to be having if, if this is happening.

• 48:05Fearne Cotton?

  I agree. I think, I think hats off for even bringing these subjects up, because you know that there are going to be people that are gonna get cross or want to have their say on it. But it, it's factual that there is a correlation. It's, that is a statistic that we can see. And like you say, it's not the causality, it's not, it's not like, oh, they drank, therefore they committed domestic violence. But people that have caused domestic violence, if they have been drinking at a football game, are probably more likely to do it. Like, the correlation is there. And I think if we're, if we're not looking at it, that, that feels deeply unfair to the women that are the victims of, of domestic violence.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  And it goes back to the science and just understanding what it is like, oh, it could make them more impulsive because it interacts with this part of your brain. Like, I think just understanding all, all of that is, is really helpful for the context of how do we actually change this? And how do we make this better for people?

• 49:01Fearne Cotton?

  One of the blurry lines that we've probably all experienced as women, and some men will have as well, is consent. And the alcohol plays a big part in the blurriness of what consent even means, or if there was any consent. You tell a story in the book where you actually just do a disclaimer saying, I might take this out. So if you're reading it, I've kept it in. Do you feel comfortable talking about this?

• 49:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I do. This is probably the first time I've talked about it, actually. So I'll try not to, I'm, in this state, I'm not that emotional. So I'll try not to, like, I want to say it properly. And yeah.

• 49:37Fearne Cotton?

  Okay. So, so talk us through the situation that you experienced, which again, many people listening to this will be like, yeah, totally been through exactly the same thing.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  So I went on a night out with my friends and I woke up the next day on my friend's sofa with a guy who was like a friend of a friend of my friend. And I realised that we had definitely had sex. And I do not remember any of it. I don't remember saying yes. I don't remember whether I said yes. In the club, we were snogging, I remember that. We'd been flirting all night and then got back to hers. After that, it's a complete blank. And I woke up the next day and just did not know how to feel about that situation. And I kind of like looked on the internet and, you know, there were a lot of places and charities saying, you know, that was sexual assault.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  And there were other places that were talking about blackouts and how you can do things in blackouts that you can be talking normally, you can be dancing normally, you could be saying yes. And I felt in this weird grey area of I didn't know what happened to me. And for weeks and weeks and weeks, it was just going around in my head of, did you say yes? Try and remember, you must have said yes, because you were snogging. Yeah, you would have definitely said yes, but did you say yes? Was he really drunk? Like, maybe he didn't realise you were drunk, because you've been in a blackout before and your friends have been like, no, you were absolutely fine. So maybe he didn't know. Maybe he was so drunk that maybe it's like, you've done something, like it just, my brain went a

• 51:13Speaker 01

  million miles per hour. And I never, I never reported it because I couldn't ever make up my mind. And then I found it's so hard to talk about this topic, because everyone wanted to label it as like, yeah, you were definitely sexually assaulted. And that may well have been the case, but I also didn't know whether like, I had. And so it was this confusing area. And I tried to speak about it once before, and someone told me, oh, you shouldn't speak about that, because like, that is what it is, it's sexual assault. And if you talk about the role that alcohol played, then you might be like, victim blaming basically yourself and other people. But I just so struggled with this idea that I wanted to talk about the role that alcohol played and how it had stopped me remembering what had happened. But I was kind of told that I couldn't talk about it. So when I wrote in the book,

• 51:58Speaker 01

  I was like, no, do you know what? Because I've spoken to so many people about it since. But do you think I should include this? What do you think? And I spoke to so many people that said that exact thing has happened to me. And I felt like I couldn't talk about it either. And I thought, you know what, I am just gonna put it out there. And if I get cancelled for it, I get cancelled for it. But hopefully, it will help more people than the people that get really pissed off about it.

• 52:19Fearne Cotton?

  I don't see how you could get cancelled. I think we're a world obsessed with definite.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:25Fearne Cotton?

  And that there has to be, this happened, or this didn't happen, and this is right, or this is wrong. And so much of our human experience, whether alcohol related or not, is not classified as one thing. It's a really complex experience. And that's why many of us go to therapy, because we're trying to figure stuff out. And I think, again, like, brilliant that you've put this in the book, a subject and an experience that so many people will have been through and gone, the relief, like, thank God, it wasn't just me. It was not just me that still plays over that night in my mind and wonders about it. Because of course, there'll be so many people that have been through it. But I don't see how anyone can put any blame or heat on you for telling a story that happened to you.

• 53:10Fearne Cotton?

  It's an experience that happened to you. And you are aware of the part that alcohol played in it. Incredible for other young people out there who might think, God, you know, my drinking is out of control, and I don't remember certain parts of my night. I think it's such an important topic.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  Thank you. I hope that is the way it is interpreted, because I just, I've got to the point where I actually don't care about my own, like, if people are gonna say things, I think, I'm old enough now that I would actually rather stick my head out there, just if it might help someone younger, like, not go through that, I think. So, yeah. And just for people to know that if that happened to them, that they're not alone either. And it can be really confusing. And it doesn't, like, it's not black and white. And there's no support, I don't think, for that weird area of like, you don't necessarily wanna report it, but you also don't know what happened to you. Like, I don't know, I feel like there needs to be some sort of service or something that, yeah.

• 54:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, without a doubt. I mean, the whole conversation around consent is a whole other topic. But I think that's something that's quite new in our language in the last, like, ten, fifteen years that we're even talking about it. Before, it was the extremes of like, you were raped, or you weren't. And now we're looking at, again, all of this grey area of, I don't quite know. And I think it's important for us to, as women, explore all of it, and look at all of it. And for you not to take on the shame or full responsibility of the experience. Like, it was two people, and, you know, this is what happens to lots of young drunk people.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  Hmm, yeah, exactly.

• 54:40Fearne Cotton?

  And it doesn't have to be one or the other. So I think it's a really important share in the book, really important. Which other myths do you feel very passionate about dispelling when it comes to alcohol and mental health?

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Oh, I think, I don't know, maybe it's that one of like, it helps. I think so many people use it, saying that it helps us connect with other people. And I think, again, that's another one of those things where it does in the short term. Like, alcohol does work, and you can't deny that. And ignoring that and pretending there's no benefits to it doesn't help anyone understand why they drink in the first place. But it's that piece that it doesn't necessarily help long term. And I think even with connection, it can help people connect and talk and things like that. But I think it would be so great if we could learn to do that without it. And it would be so great if we could learn to be more confident without it. Like, I think the biggest one is people say, I need

• 55:38Speaker 01

  this. And I am a firm believer, and no one needs it. Like, want maybe, but no one needs it for, for all the things that they believe they need it for. They, I don't think they need it for stress, they don't need it for anxiety. They, slowly, it might make all of those things worse. So that, I think, is the big one for me. If I just want people to know that if they want, if they're thinking about it, they can absolutely live a life without it. It's not something, it's not like water or food, you do not need it to survive. So I think that's like a big one that I would just tell people.

• 56:08Fearne Cotton?

  Another big deep dive bit of research we've done, again, because of personal experience, is getting a late diagnosis for ADHD and autism.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:16Fearne Cotton?

  And looking at the correlation between alcohol and neurodivergence. Talk to me a little bit about that.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I've always known that my brain is like, different is probably the word. And I've always struggled with my mental health and never like, been able to identify with what, like, one kind of diagnosis or another. And then when I wrote my first book, I had loads of people message me and say, I think you might have ADHD, or I think you might be autistic. And I was like, no, I don't think of any of those things. And then, you know, I started looking into it from sort of like, yeah, just from interest, really. And then I thought, okay, for this book, I'm gonna actually go to a psychiatrist and see what they say. And he was like, yes, absolutely, for these things. And I was like, okay, that's interesting. And I think so much of it is tied up in like, for me, my brain works at a billion miles per hour constantly. And alcohol, for me, just allowed me to like,

• 57:04Speaker 01

  focus on what was in front of me, being present, having a nice time at the beginning. So for so many neurodivergent people, alcohol can feel so relieving. It can help you mask better in situations. It can, you know, if you're easily overstimulated, and a lot of those sort of like nightclub bar environments are overstimulating, it can help with that. It can help you like settle into conversations. But actually, the kind of like next day thing is that it might actually make you feel a lot worse. Because if you are the type of person who ruminates, who worries about what you've done, like, then it can exacerbate all of those things. So, yeah, there was so much to it with the neurodivergence piece. I found super interesting, even like the impulsivity piece. I always thought the impulsivity

• 57:48Speaker 01

  was like, me and you decide right now, we're gonna go on holiday. But it can also be that actually, you find it really hard to stop once you start. And I could never stop once I started. I was always like, once I've had one, I'm having a million. And so I found like, that sort of thing really interesting. And, yeah, there was so much to it. And I just found it made so much sense. I don't, I didn't like live and die by like this diagnosis now, because I feel like I've lived a lot of my life with it. But I think it's been so interesting to be able to go, oh, my God, yeah, that's, that's actually why my brain is like that. And why I find so much relief in alcohol. And why the next day, it might feel so much worse for me than it might for someone else.

• 58:26Fearne Cotton?

  It makes so much sense. I mean, I did a course in ADHD. I mean, not, not like a university degree, but I did like a month long online course, because I was so, there's people in my family that have ADHD. And I was like, I just need to get a grip on like, what all of this means. And the one thing for me that really stood out was this need for like, the impulsivity for a dopamine hit. Like, where is that next hit of whatever it is coming from, whether it's, I wanna buy something, I wanna eat something, I wanna drink something, I need the excitement, I need the stimulation. It totally tallies that, of course, if you start drinking and you think, oh, my God, this is working for me, that you wouldn't know when to stop. And I'm not saying all ADHDers are gonna experience that, but I totally understand why that would, why that would happen.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. And like, ADHD people are so overrepresented in like clinical treatment settings. If you look at like the stats, so many people that, you know, have alcohol use disorder or substance use disorders, have ADHD or neurodivergence. And I think it's not really been explored that much, because we, we don't even have that much research on neurodivergence, let alone then alcohol and neurodivergence. But I think it's gonna be a really interesting piece, because the amount of people I've met that have stopped drinking, that have found out they are neurodivergent. And it's that same thing, again, of sometimes the symptoms get really wrapped up with drinking. And so people, a lot of people don't realise they're neurodivergent until they stop drinking, because otherwise they're just, you know, confusing drinking consequences with like symptoms of ADHD and things like that. And so all of a sudden, they stop drinking, they go, oh, my brain

• 59:53Speaker 01

  still works like this way, and I struggle with this, and I do that. And then they go and get that interrogated. And they're like, okay, that makes sense. So.

• 59:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, there's a lot more. I mean, that's your second book, clearly.

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:02Fearne Cotton?

  So we need to get on with it and write another one.

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, no, I need a break. I need a holiday.

• 1:00:06Fearne Cotton?

  Um, no, I feel like we could unpick so many other cultural norms and, and myths and all the things. We need to do a part two at some, some point. But what I would say is people need to read your book. You know, if they're, whether they're wondering about any of these, you know, repercussions in their own lives, or they just wanna understand alcohol and how it affects the brain a bit better, to get your book. It's absolutely brilliant. I thoroughly loved reading it.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:00:31Fearne Cotton?

  Before we wrap up, two quick questions. The first is, we're making a happy place playlist with really good songs that make you feel great. You're on a sober night, Al. What are you listening to?

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  Do you know what? My favourite like happy song is Bruce Springsteen, Dancing in the Dark.

• 1:00:45Fearne Cotton?

  Oh.

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  There is a line in that that says, it's like, you can't start a fire worrying about your little world falling apart. And I always think of that, especially with like that story earlier of like, you can't make changes in the world, like worrying about, you know, just you and how that's so, that I remember that all the time. And it's a dance song. It's like a dance song with like a really deep meaning, which I love.

• 1:01:05Fearne Cotton?

  Bruce is the best. We love him. He's the best. And where is your happy place?

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  My happy place is just honestly wherever my friends and family are. Like, I literally, I could be wherever. And also probably here as well today. This has been a great day.

• 1:01:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yay. Well, I've absolutely loved talking to you, Millie. Thank you so much. Congrats on the book. And good luck with all of your, you know, continuing this very important conversation. It's brilliant.

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:01:30Fearne Cotton?

  Bloody love that. I thought Millie was so unbelievably honest in that chat in all ways. And it's really tricky talking about some of these subjects. Like she said, you know, she is under fire sometimes for saying certain things, or people want to put labels on it, or I don't know, like, take things out of context. If you listen to the whole of that episode, you'll have heard every single complex sentence that Millie very carefully thought through to really ensure that she's thorough with everything she's saying, every story she's telling, that she's looking at it from all angles. I think she's just a really brilliant person to have that conversation with. I did not feel in any way preached to, not in any

• 1:02:11Fearne Cotton?

  way at all. But I certainly learned a hell of a lot, which I think is the key, isn't it? Like, if we've got the information, we can make better decisions that suit our drinking habits, our social circles, how we deal with stress and anxiety. It's all in there. And if you feel like you need more information, you've got to get the book. It's brilliant. Millie's book, Hangxiety, is out on the 8th of September. Now, another book that I would love you to read is our Happy Place pick for September. It's Death Writ Large by Susie Dent, and it's a clever thriller using her incredible linguistic skills woven into a proper mystery.

• 1:02:52Fearne Cotton?

  I learned lots of new words reading this book. I keep circling them, like, remember that word and pop it into a sentence when you can. I mean, I definitely won't, but the, you know, the intention's there. Susie is going to be at the Happy Place Festival in Tatten this coming weekend, and I cannot wait to chat with her. You'll be able to hear that conversation here on the podcast in just a few weeks' time. Anyway, if you do want to read along with us, we are on Instagram at Happy Place Book Club. We're going to be talking about it there, discussing the characters, the plot, whatever you loved about it, et cetera. So join our book club. We're online. If you want to be part of the best book club, it's ours. Join it. All right. Until next time, a huge thanks again to Millie and to you brilliant, brilliant

• 1:03:36Fearne Cotton?

  lot. Sober or not, I love you all.

• 1:04:00Fearne Cotton?

  Happy Place is researched by me, Fern Cotton. The producer is Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, with studio engineering by Basil Oxtaby.

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