Chef Paul Carmichael

This week, Ina chats with Chef Paul Carmichael, whose restaurant, Kabawa, has been ranked the number one restaurant in NYC by The New York Times, and named the number one restaurant in America by Food and Wine Magazine. They talk about how he started cooking at the age of three, his Caribbean heritage, and why the music in a restaurant bathroom is one of the most important decisions you can make. Beloved hostess Ina Garten welcomes listeners into her New York City apartment for Happy Hour with Ina Garten. Every Wednesday, she sits down with people she’d like to meet from the worlds of culture, food, art, sports, and entertainment for the kinds of conversations you would love to overhear at a great dinner party. Warm, funny, personal, and often unexpected, Happy Hour mixes in-depth conversation with stories, recipes, and, of course, cocktails. Pull up a chair, pour yourself a drink, and join the conversation. SUBSCRIBE ► Subscribe to Happy Hour with Ina Garten for new episodes every Wednesday: https://www.youtube.com/@HappyHourwithIna?sub_confirmation=1 FOLLOW THE SHOW ► Happy Hour on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@HappyHourwithIna?sub_confirmation=1 ► Happy Hour on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/happyhourwithina ► Happy Hour on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@happyhourwithina ► Happy Hour on Substack: https://happyhourwithinagarten.substack.com/welcome ► Happy Hour on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61589319634655 Host: Ina Garten Executive Producers: Jenna Weiss-Berman, Suzie Lechtenberg, Ali Jaffe Ramis, and Deborah Davis Contributing Producer: Kate Tyler Senior Producer: Justine Daum Producer: Jules Natt Video Editor: Tim Fernandez Associate Producer: Mica Pollan Bahn Sound Recording: Sam Mewton Audio Mixing: Mike Kutchman and Joe Plourde Camera Operators: Joe Valenzuela and Jovan Sales Music by Pink Martini Special Thanks to Cinematographer Dion Beebe Happy Hour with Ina is made by Good Wait Productions. This is a Vox Media podcast. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Ina Garten?

  I'm Ina Garten and this is Happy Hour. Today, I'm sitting down with chef Paul Carmichael. Can I make a toast to being really bad employees?

• 0:09Speaker 01

  Terrible.

• 0:10Ina Garten?

  Terrible, me too. Paul is one of the most celebrated chefs in America, and I love how he brings his passion and fun into his cooking.

• 0:18Speaker 01

  We saw someone coming with a bucket of water, we're like, "No!"

• 0:22Ina Garten?

  His restaurant, Kabawa, was ranked the number one best restaurant in New York City by The New York Times and was named the best restaurant in America by Food & Wine. Wow.

• 0:37Ina Garten?

  Paul Carmichael, welcome to Happy Hour. So happy to see you.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  Nice to meet you.

• 0:42Ina Garten?

  So, tell me how it started. There you were, minding your own business. Did the phone ring? How did you find out you were the number one restaurant in New York, according to The New York Times? Do you remember?

• 0:54Speaker 01

  No.

• 0:55Ina Garten?

  You don't? I would think it was such a seminal moment.

• 0:58Speaker 01

  I don't remember how we found out, or how I found out.

• 1:02Ina Garten?

  What did you do? Did you celebrate? Or was it just another day at the office?

• 1:06Speaker 01

  It was just another day at the office. I didn't celebrate. I celebrated my team, congratulated everybody. We did a big Cheers joint lineup. But I'm the kind of person that...

• 1:20Ina Garten?

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• 1:57Speaker 01

  While accolades are amazing, and I like to think of moving forward and being better all the time. And that's annoying to work with, and I'm sorry for everybody that has to work with me, but...

• 2:11Ina Garten?

  You know what? I'm sure you're like me. You're either on my train or you're not. And if you're moving forward with me, come along for the ride.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  It's like straight ahead.

• 2:18Ina Garten?

  But if you're in my way, you're out of there. Right.

• 2:21Speaker 01

  We have so much room to improve. So while I do love the accolade, and it gives my team full validation and all the hard work that we've put in, I see all the things that are wrong all the time. And I can't dwell on an award. I need to dwell on getting better.

• 2:45Ina Garten?

  And that's why it's the number one restaurant.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  That's my job.

• 2:48Ina Garten?

  So tell me about Caribbean food. I grew up with roast chicken and rice pudding.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Which is not a bad show.

• 2:56Ina Garten?

  But I'm always trying to figure out how to make something better. Like, what my experience was and how I make it better. Tell me about Caribbean food and how you presented it.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  Are you a Virgo?

• 3:05Ina Garten?

  No, I'm a...

• 3:07Speaker 01

  This is just real Virgo behavior.

• 3:10Ina Garten?

  I'm obsessive compulsive, that's for sure.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  So Caribbean food. I was born in Barbados. So it's like the thing I grew up eating and it was all around. I had a really good cooking family.

• 3:24Ina Garten?

  And I understand when you were three, you used to cook for yourself?

• 3:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:27Ina Garten?

  You would stand on a stool and cook? First of all, your family was really brave.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think nowadays it would be like...

• 3:34Ina Garten?

  Can you imagine?

• 3:34Speaker 01

  I'd probably get taken away.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  That would be like telling a different story. You know, I grew up in a home because my parents let me cook.

• 3:42Ina Garten?

  So you grew up in Barbados, so that was your experience.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:45Ina Garten?

  And how do you interpret it for Kabawa?

• 3:48Speaker 01

  So Kabawa, for me, is like a culmination of, yeah, my current life's work. Right? So leaving Barbados, I left there with the intention of like learning and positioning myself in a place where I could get better, but also have the opportunity to do the things that I wanted to do. I didn't see those opportunities in Barbados. Thank God, no, it's changed in the last 25, 30 years.

• 4:20Ina Garten?

  When you go back, is it really different? Is the food culture there different?

• 4:23Speaker 01

  Food culture, not really. A little bit. Food culture, a little bit, but just culturally, as far as like, I mean, to be honest, when I grew up, every chef in restaurants, like nice restaurants or hotels, were not Beijing. They were like from wherever, Ireland, Germany.

• 4:44Ina Garten?

  Oh, interesting.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  England. And I left with the intention of being like, "Well, I don't see a pathway for me here." So moving to New York, it was just like, it's a place that you work and you could be rewarded, right?

• 4:59Ina Garten?

  You know what I love about that? The intentionality of it. That you knew, you looked at it, you said, "It's not going to work for me." Like me in the government. I was in the government, I thought, "This is never going to work for me." And you just shift gears, which is why it works. So you came to New York.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  I go to CIA and the Color Institute of America. And all I'm thinking about is Caribbean food, literally, the whole time.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  And then I left, finished up with the CIA, started my first job.

• 5:32Ina Garten?

  What was your first job?

• 5:33Speaker 01

  It was at Aquave. Aquave is and was, at that time, was a Swedish restaurant. It still is a Swedish restaurant. The chef at that time was Marcus Samuelson, who I'm sure you know very well.

• 5:44Ina Garten?

  Yeah, I do.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  Wonderful human.

• 5:46Ina Garten?

  I adore him, yeah.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  And he was about 26, 27.

• 5:51Ina Garten?

  He decided that he wanted to make it the number one restaurant in New York.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:55Ina Garten?

  He told them when he took the job that that was his goal.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  And he worked really hard.

• 6:00Ina Garten?

  And he did it.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  You know, and that team worked really hard. And I worked for him for quite a while. But even there, in that Swedish restaurant, as learning extracurricularly, I would work on dishes. So that's been...

• 6:14Ina Garten?

  So they were really open to trying new things.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  Just trying. And nothing would ever make me menu. I was also like 21, or 20 at the time. While I felt I could cook, I didn't really have those sort of skills.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  Anywho, fast forward. That's what I did in pretty much every venue that I've ever worked.

• 6:34Ina Garten?

  Yeah, but you worked in incredible places. You worked for Wiley Dufresne.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 6:38Ina Garten?

  And where that was molecular gastronomy.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  And it's hidden.

• 6:42Ina Garten?

  That was a whole other thing, right?

• 6:43Speaker 01

  And it's like, at the height of its powers.

• 6:45Ina Garten?

  And then you came back to Marcus Samuelson.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 6:48Ina Garten?

  Right? So that was a different kind of cooking. What was that?

• 6:51Speaker 01

  That was Pan-African.

• 6:53Ina Garten?

  You only worked for fabulous chefs. Then you left him and went to David Chang. And I have to say, even David Chang wouldn't think that was easy, right? I mean, tell me about Mama Fuku when you got there.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  So I started at Momo. When did it start? 2010.

• 7:08Ina Garten?

  Yeah.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  I had just left Puerto Rico. It really was the impetus for leaving Puerto Rico. He was like, "You want to come back?" And I was like, "Yes." And we opened a restaurant with Tin Hall as the chef. It was called Ma Pesh. And then Tin left, maybe 10 months in.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  And I was the sous chef. And I remember this like night and day.

• 7:34Ina Garten?

  It's like a Broadway show.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, Tin took me upstairs. He was like, "Hey, I'm leaving, but Dave and I want the restaurant to be, want you to run it." And I was like, "Why?"

• 7:44Ina Garten?

  How old were you?

• 7:48Speaker 01

  Do math, Paul, 30, 31.

• 7:51Ina Garten?

  Okay, so you were ready.

• 7:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd been cooking for a long time.

• 7:54Ina Garten?

  You've done the work.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, plus I was a chef before. But in New York City, on that stage, I'm always doubting myself. I mean, I doubt myself till today.

• 8:04Ina Garten?

  I think that's where we work harder. Nobody doubts themselves more than I do. I'll challenge you on that.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Tell me about it, man. It's like constant doubt, constantly.

• 8:14Ina Garten?

  But you work through it. I think a lot of people have the doubt. The doubt stops them.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  No, this fuels me.

• 8:20Ina Garten?

  It fuels me too. I know, it's just, it's like, "I'm going to show myself." That I can, you know, you start out going, "How is this going to work? How's this going to happen?" And then you work through it. And then at the other side, you go, "Hey, that worked."

• 8:32Speaker 01

  I mean, absolutely.

• 8:33Ina Garten?

  Isn't that great?

• 8:34Speaker 01

  You could have said, "I have to say it any better." That is exactly how my brain works.

• 8:40Ina Garten?

  So you worked for David Chang at Mama Fuku. And then he asked you to open a restaurant in Australia.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  Difficult decision, but decided to go.

• 8:48Ina Garten?

  So what's it like taking a cuisine like that to the other side of the earth? To a completely different culture?

• 8:57Speaker 01

  So, interestingly enough, I felt zero pressure cooking the way I wanted to cook in Australia.

• 9:07Ina Garten?

  Oh, because you didn't have somebody over your shoulder?

• 9:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:09Ina Garten?

  Isn't that, that was the first time you were free?

• 9:11Speaker 01

  Free.

• 9:12Ina Garten?

  Oh, how great.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:14Ina Garten?

  And I know what happened. You ended up being the number one restaurant in Sydney, right?

• 9:19Speaker 01

  It's how I work best.

• 9:20Ina Garten?

  Isn't that great? Yeah, me too.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  I'm the person, I'm like, "Leave me alone."

• 9:24Ina Garten?

  Just get out of the way.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  "And it will do wonders for you." I micromanaged me, I'm the worst employee ever.

• 9:30Ina Garten?

  Can I make a toast to being really bad employees?

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Terrible.

• 9:33Ina Garten?

  Terrible, me too.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  But also the best, you know?

• 9:38Ina Garten?

  If somebody leaves you alone and you can do what you need to do.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, the best. Because I want nothing more than to please, you know?

• 9:45Ina Garten?

  And to do great work.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  And to do great work.

• 9:47Ina Garten?

  Yeah. And it really shows. So you stayed, how long did you stay in Australia?

• 9:51Speaker 01

  I was there 10 years.

• 9:52Ina Garten?

  Wow, oh, you really were.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  I was there.

• 9:55Ina Garten?

  Oh, wow.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  I got a passport.

• 9:58Ina Garten?

  So just say you come back and you decide to open Kabala. So describe Kabala to me. I mean, what does it look like?

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Ah, Kabala.

• 10:07Ina Garten?

  One thing I know is you and I are obsessed with what we do being fun.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:13Ina Garten?

  Fun for us, fun for the employees, fun for the customers. So describe what Kabala is and how you infuse everything with fun.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  So for me, it all starts with the Caribbean. And both spaces, Bar Kabala and Kabala, Bar Kabala opened first.

• 10:28Ina Garten?

  Oh, the bar opened first.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Bar opened first. Really wanted it to be rambunctious and in your face.

• 10:35Ina Garten?

  I love that word.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  I just wanted to feel like it was at a house party in the Caribbean.

• 10:41Ina Garten?

  Yeah.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Whereas Kabala is, it's like, I call it, it's the parent. A little bit more refined, still loves to have fun, but not the same way. You know, because times pass and, you know, you don't want to party till 4:00 AM anymore, you know?

• 10:58Ina Garten?

  So how do you infuse Bar Kabala with fun and everything? Because you were involved in the design.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:05Ina Garten?

  You were involved in the music.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  Like psychotically involved.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 11:10Ina Garten?

  I can relate to that.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Still apologizing.

• 11:13Ina Garten?

  Every detail. And you know, I remember when I had Bear for Contessa. And it was so important to me that people felt good when they walked in the door. That I wanted to engage all of their senses. So that when you walked in the door, there was a wood screen door that closed behind you. And it felt like summer. It sounded like summer. And there was a big counter with a big table with incredible desserts. That visually, it just looked delicious. And there was great music, like Frank Sinatra and, you know, just old fashioned, really great music. And we always had, actually, for a smell, I mean, we obviously had a kitchen because we prepared everything. But in the store, I had a small kitchen that sometimes we had grills and we would have barbecue chicken and ribs.

• 11:57Ina Garten?

  Or sometimes we would have deck ovens, French deck ovens, and you could smell the bread baking. So I engaged the, every detail. People didn't know why they felt great there, but they just felt great. And I feel like Kabala was the same way. Like you infuse the details with fun.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  With everything.

• 12:14Ina Garten?

  And so how do you do that?

• 12:16Speaker 01

  I think, for me, it was like having a full view and understanding of what the vision is. And like food honestly came last. I was so concerned with like how people are going to feel in the space, when they left the space, how they interacted with the space.

• 12:36Ina Garten?

  There are two details that I just absolutely adore, that you chose the wallpaper for the bathrooms.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 12:42Ina Garten?

  And am I right that you chose the music for the bathrooms?

• 12:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, yeah.

• 12:46Ina Garten?

  And tell me what they are.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  So they were, okay.

• 12:50Ina Garten?

  This is just the best.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  This is just very, this is fun for me too, because the bathrooms in particular were the one space in the, in the both spaces, in both restaurant and bar, where it was like, okay, I could be a little bit fun and kitschy. Because it was very important for me for both spaces not to feel kitschy. Like I wanted each thing to feel like it belongs to the Caribbean, not a caricature of the Caribbean. And that's what a lot of restaurants are like, right? Especially because you're just like, oh, because I told my designer, I was just like, there are very few like Italian restaurants you walk into and there's the Leaning Tower of Pisa and there's red,

• 13:35Speaker 01

  you know, green, white and red everywhere, you know, it's like, yeah, very few, right? And I was like, we need, I want the space to feel like it could go anywhere. It could go anywhere. But the bathrooms, I was like, I want to have a little bit of fun. So one bathroom, it started with a sound. Living in Puerto Rico, there are these little frogs called cokeys.

• 13:59Ina Garten?

  Yeah.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  And they go like, cookie, cookie, cookie. It's an all night long. And it is a sound that every time you hear it, you're just, you think Puerto Rico. So that's what that bathroom was. Designed around that. So you did, I wanted to be like somewhat immersive. So the wallpaper is like a rainforest.

• 14:23Ina Garten?

  Oh, great.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  And the sound, when you're in there is, and they're tiny bathrooms, is the cokey sound is going and going and going. The other bathroom, I really wanted to feel like a grandma's bathroom. And in that, saying that, it's with time and care and a lot of like nostalgia, right? Like when people, you curate a thing that looks odd, but looks together, right?

• 14:53Ina Garten?

  Yeah, it looks collected.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  Collected.

• 14:55Ina Garten?

  Yeah, I love rooms that look collected. It doesn't look styled.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 14:59Ina Garten?

  Looks collected, yeah.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  But then you look at it, you're like, it's quite beautiful. And that bathroom is a little bit, looks like the colors are a little bit toned down. And I asked my staff to, if they wanted to, to give the photos of them and their family, whether it was like young or grandparents or whatever, so just random photos in there of like team members, parents or grandparents or their family or whatever. Just to have like that feel of like a collection. And in that bathroom, I play a speech by the Prime Minister of Barbados.

• 15:37Ina Garten?

  This knocked me out. So what's the speech? I thought it was a Prime Minister's speech.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's an incredible speech about the Caribbean and Africa and the link. And she did it in, I want to say 2024 in Ethiopia. And it's a very powerful and beautiful speech. And when I heard it, I was like, ah, this is, this is it. Because I wanted a particular sound for that bathroom, like.

• 16:08Ina Garten?

  I just, I mean, I find that so creative that, I mean, everybody thinks of music in the bathroom. But to have an inspiring speech in the bathroom, a Prime Minister's speech is just, just knocks me out. It's so out of the box.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Speech, beautiful. And I love our Prime Minister. She's been in the restaurant three times now.

• 16:27Ina Garten?

  You know, I think a lot of people think, well, I could be a chef because I can cook dinner for my family. But the experience they need to do it.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  I think unfortunately, not unfortunately, the idea, chefing's very,

• 16:44Speaker 01

  I don't want to say it's complex, because it's not, but it's a lot more than cooking. I kind of wish it was just all cooking. Because I would be.

• 16:53Ina Garten?

  So what's the difference?

• 16:53Speaker 01

  I'd be in my happy place every day.

• 16:57Ina Garten?

  If you could just, just produce really great food every day.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, if I could just go to work and cook.

• 17:01Ina Garten?

  So chefing is really managing people.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Chefing's managing people of all sorts. Like cooking is a fraction.

• 17:09Ina Garten?

  Of what you do.

• 17:10Speaker 01

  Of, of.

• 17:11Ina Garten?

  So Eric Repair told me this story. I assume you know him from Le Bernadette.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:16Ina Garten?

  And when he was working restaurants in France and everybody was, all the chefs were screaming at everybody, just screaming at everybody. And he decided to move to Washington. He got a job at a restaurant, a French restaurant in Washington. And he went to the airport and he thought, I'm just going to go to the newsstand and get something to read on the flight. And he was going to go get Playboy. And right next to it was a book about Buddhism. And he thought, well, maybe instead of Playboy, I'll get the Buddhist, book on Buddhism. And he read it and he's a serious Buddhist. I don't know if you know him, if you know everybody. And he was in his restaurant at Le Bernadette, just screaming at everybody, like everybody always did. And one day he thought, this is crazy. And he just stopped.

• 18:01Ina Garten?

  How do you run your kitchen? How do you, something tells me that sometimes there are times to scream to people and sometimes not.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  So I'm not a screamer.

• 18:11Ina Garten?

  I couldn't imagine you were.

• 18:14Speaker 01

  I think like any, oh man, this is, this is so deep. Like any, like people's upbringings are interesting, right? And whether you're a leader or a parent or whatever, you mimic the things that you were, you were brought through.

• 18:34Ina Garten?

  Unless you're conscious.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Unless you're conscious, right? And very few people are conscious. And consciousness comes sometimes after, like if you have children, like after the first one, right?

• 18:46Ina Garten?

  So what was your upbringing? Was it, were people calm or screamers?

• 18:50Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Calm or screamers? I think it's a mixture of both.

• 18:57Ina Garten?

  Okay, that's good.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  Like my mom was the hammer. My dad was the emotionally intelligent, loving one.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  And you know, you kind of need both. Kids are kids.

• 19:09Ina Garten?

  Yeah.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  But for me, cooking wise and restaurant wise, I came up in an era of, you know, hostility, you know? And it was push hard, which I didn't mind because like, I'm like, you're not worse than my mama, so.

• 19:29Ina Garten?

  Well, there are also two ways to motivate people and both work.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:32Ina Garten?

  One is fear.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:33Ina Garten?

  And one is leadership. I mean, I hate the fear thing.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:37Ina Garten?

  Because you end up with emotionally crippled people.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, you burn a lot of bridges. Like you could, that's the thing. If you lead by fear, there's gonna be some people that thrive in that. But you burn more people than you build.

• 19:50Ina Garten?

  So how many people say, wouldn't it be fun to own a restaurant?

• 19:53Speaker 01

  A lot.

• 19:54Ina Garten?

  A lot.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  A lot of people say.

• 19:55Ina Garten?

  Oh, my God. I mean, mine wasn't, mine was especially a food store. So we would make things and people take it home.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:02Ina Garten?

  You make things that people eat right there. So you hear about it immediately.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is the beauty of both.

• 20:08Ina Garten?

  Which is good.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  I, I love that bit about it.

• 20:11Ina Garten?

  So how does an open kitchen work for you? Do you, is your kitchen, Kabbalah is open, right? So one of the things I think that's wonderful about an open kitchen is a friend of mine wrote a book called Mattering. And the whole thing is how people are happiest if they feel that their lives matter to others. And an open kitchen, what happens is your chefs make and your cooks make food and they send it out. And they actually see people enjoying it, which I think is such an important part of. Usually in a closed kitchen, you send it out, you have no idea what happened.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  And also with, with our space, like the cooks are actually doing the serving too.

• 20:48Ina Garten?

  Oh, they are?

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 20:49Ina Garten?

  Oh, how interesting is that?

• 20:51Speaker 01

  It's like this connection.

• 20:53Ina Garten?

  So they're really connected.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  That's, that's important, you know?

• 20:55Ina Garten?

  That's, you feel like that the people at the diners are really appreciating the chef's work.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's also like, it's, it's this, it's this relationship, right? Like I actually had a conversation with a guest the other night where it was just like, all we could do is create a space for you, right? And make an effort to connect. Guests have a part to play in their experience as well, right? So they gotta be receptive, in decent moods, you know? And then when that all comes together, a magical experience can happen. But there's only so much like.

• 21:35Ina Garten?

  That you can do on the side of that equation.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  From our side, right? Our side of the equation is probably eighty-five to ninety percent.

• 21:41Ina Garten?

  Yeah.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  But you still bring a percentage.

• 21:43Ina Garten?

  Yeah.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  And that percentage is heavy, you know?

• 21:45Ina Garten?

  And there's always that customer, there's nothing you can do for them.

• 21:48Speaker 01

  Nothing, and that's okay.

• 21:49Ina Garten?

  And you know what I say to myself? They have to live with themselves twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. And I only have to meet them once in a while.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  Like.

• 21:57Ina Garten?

  So I feel badly for them, but.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  That's okay.

• 22:00Ina Garten?

  But most customers are.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  And as long as you're not.

• 22:02Ina Garten?

  Appreciative.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  As long as you're not rude or mean to anybody that.

• 22:06Ina Garten?

  Ever.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  That works there.

• 22:08Ina Garten?

  Yeah.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  You could be as grumpy as you want, but that's.

• 22:11Ina Garten?

  Have you ever had somebody?

• 22:12Speaker 01

  You mess with my crew.

• 22:13Ina Garten?

  I actually, that's what happened to me. It was a summer in August and I had a customer was criticizing one of my employees. Who was working so hard and they were so good. And Jeffrey walked into the kitchen, there's a little window in the door between the kitchen and the store. And all, apparently everybody in the kitchen was looking in the window. And he goes, what's going on? They said, you don't want to go out there, she's really mad. And I literally got my hands around this woman's throat. I was so mad because she was criticizing my employee.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 22:46Ina Garten?

  And didn't, and absolutely didn't deserve it. It was so.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  I'm very protective of my crew.

• 22:54Ina Garten?

  Isn't that funny?

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Like very, a hundred percent.

• 22:56Ina Garten?

  Did it change when you were made number one New York restaurant? I mean, was it, did you feel like it was an East Village restaurant where everybody from the neighborhood came in? And then all of a sudden, people from Dallas were showing up and saying, show me how fabulous you are? Or did it not change at all?

• 23:13Speaker 01

  I think it changed, it changed from every publication that we got a review.

• 23:19Ina Garten?

  Oh, yeah.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  From.

• 23:20Ina Garten?

  Yeah.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  And because obviously every publication has their viewership. And that changed. And now I think we have like this beautiful, like mix of regulars, neighborhood, tourists, the haters, like whatever, like, like all of it. It's all, it's, and I think it's all beautiful. Everybody's coming. And even more so, what I feel incredibly proud of is that people from the Caribbean are coming.

• 23:53Ina Garten?

  Are coming? Oh, that's fabulous.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  And because, I mean, I built it for them.

• 23:57Ina Garten?

  Yeah.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  You know, like in my heart and soul, like it's from my region, so.

• 24:05Ina Garten?

  And so they really connect with that.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:19Speaker 02

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• 24:49Speaker 03

  Are you tired of hearing about business, tech and finance from the bros? We are the Tiger Sisters, a top business podcast with the Vox Media Podcast Network. Tiger Sisters releases every Monday and we decode money, power and love. And who doesn't love all those things? We are the internet's Wall Street and Silicon Valley big sisters. Tune in every Monday for late night sister talk meets boardroom strategy. Check out Tiger Sisters on YouTube, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 25:17Speaker 04

  Welcome to the Tiger fam.

• 25:27Ina Garten?

  You and I have something in common that I think is really funny. When I was in high school, the girls took home economics and the boys took shop. And I don't know why, I just refused to take home economics.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the thing, I took home economics.

• 25:40Ina Garten?

  Well, that's been so funny. I took shop, but what was it like? Did a lot of boys take home economics or were you the only one?

• 25:46Speaker 01

  I was like one of two. But I could tell you, I could tell you why I took home economics too, for a few reasons. One, I was this really awkward fat kid that no one.

• 25:57Ina Garten?

  Really?

• 25:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I was just like full, okay, but good at one thing.

• 26:01Ina Garten?

  Yeah.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Like I was always good at cooking.

• 26:03Ina Garten?

  Yeah.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  And I was like, okay, well, I could take this class. One, it would be super easy because it's, it's home economics, right? Like it's cooking and sewing. And that's, these are all things that I did. Like my mom taught herself a sew, you know? At that point, I'd been cooking since I was like three, was cooking for my family since I was eight. So it was like, oh, this class is gonna be awesome.

• 26:28Ina Garten?

  This is a gut.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Two, when I first started high school, there was this girl I had an instant crush on.

• 26:37Ina Garten?

  I can't believe you're telling me this because I secretly think I took shop because the boys were there.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  She, she took that class, so I was like, I'm going to that class. And let's just see what happens, right? We ended up dating for like nine years.

• 26:48Ina Garten?

  Oh.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  And we're still very close friends.

• 26:51Ina Garten?

  Oh, how lovely.

• 26:52Speaker 01

  Ah, that's two. And then, three, I actually kind of liked the teachers for home economics. And it all, it always, if I didn't take home economics, I don't think I would have been obsessive about being a chef. Because it was my home economics teacher that was like.

• 27:11Ina Garten?

  Inspired you?

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Who, she was like, you should be a chef.

• 27:14Ina Garten?

  Isn't that, isn't that fun?

• 27:15Speaker 01

  And I had no, like, in my mind, like, you know, at eleven or twelve, you're just like, what chef? What's that? You know, like what's work?

• 27:23Ina Garten?

  You know, that was a job?

• 27:24Speaker 01

  Like, I knew it was a job.

• 27:25Ina Garten?

  Yeah, but.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  But, but I wasn't thinking about work.

• 27:28Ina Garten?

  Yeah.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  I was privileged enough to not have to think about work at eleven, you know?

• 27:34Ina Garten?

  Yeah.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  And then I just started obsessing about it. She's the one that got like a brochure for the CIA. She like sent them a handwritten letter because this is, back then, there was no email.

• 27:48Ina Garten?

  Yeah.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  Internet didn't exist, you know? So handwritten letter, and it was, it was awesome.

• 27:54Ina Garten?

  I think each of us needs just one person who totally believes in what we want to do. It doesn't take a lot.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  It does not.

• 28:01Ina Garten?

  It's just one person.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  Does not.

• 28:02Ina Garten?

  One person that you admire, that you respect and who believes, believes in you.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  I, and I could tell you.

• 28:07Ina Garten?

  You just need to find that one person.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  It's the truth. And I tell everybody this all the time. I didn't get here by myself. There's a ton of people that helped me, you know? I was home last year and I went to my neighbor's house. And I was like, look, I've never told you this and I'm nearly fifty and I'm sorry. I thank you so much for being supportive to me, you know? Because without them, I couldn't have done it either, you know?

• 28:34Ina Garten?

  How lovely. Were they incredibly touched?

• 28:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, we all had a little cry.

• 28:39Ina Garten?

  Oh, how lovely.

• 28:41Speaker 01

  My ex, that same girl I had a crush on.

• 28:44Ina Garten?

  Yeah.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Her dad was very inspiring to me because he was a CEO of an, of an insurance company in Barbados.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  You know, very accomplished man. And he always would say, like, not only did he love me for his daughter, he would always say, like, he'd say, Paul, follow your heart. Do the thing that you want to do. And he, and he's like, irregardless of what people tell you, he's just like, and he, of all the adults in my life, parents included, he was the one that was just like.

• 29:21Ina Garten?

  Oh, so you really had that.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  You're not making a mistake. Do, do the thing. Whereas my parents were like unsure, which I understand too.

• 29:30Ina Garten?

  Didn't your parents say that they would pay for culinary school if?

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Well, that was my, that was my.

• 29:36Ina Garten?

  Oh, that was your.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  That was my proposition.

• 29:39Ina Garten?

  Oh, that, that you would get, was it computer engineering?

• 29:42Speaker 01

  They were like, get a degree so you have something to fall back on. And, and I was like, I'll get a degree. But if I do get this degree, you send me, you put me through culinary.

• 29:52Ina Garten?

  That was smart. That was really smart.

• 29:54Speaker 01

  And, and I did that. And the whole time was cooking in a restaurant.

• 29:58Ina Garten?

  What do they say now? I'll chew on that.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  They, they got nothing to say.

• 30:02Ina Garten?

  They're damn proud.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  You know what's funny? It wasn't until, I would say, 10 years ago, that my parents actually knew what I did. Like, at what level?

• 30:12Ina Garten?

  I don't think my parents ever figured it out.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  Like, no clue. It's only because of my GM, shout out to Kylie Javier Ashen, love her. She is no family. She's like my little sister. But she collected all the things that we did and like said to my parents. Cause I never, I, I never talked to my parents about my work or what I did or anything accomplished. Like, we'd always check in and talk like, oh, how are you doing? Oh, you're working really hard. Da, da, da, da, da. Cause that's my family's superpower. We are all workaholics and it has been driven into us since we,

• 30:54Speaker 01

  since I left the birth canal, that work is the key to success. You know, hard work is the key to success. So it's like, they always knew I worked very hard, but they never really knew what I did.

• 31:09Ina Garten?

  So when they read those articles, they realized that you.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  It's like, oh.

• 31:13Ina Garten?

  Oh, now I get it.

• 31:14Speaker 01

  They're like, it wasn't a waste, right?

• 31:17Ina Garten?

  And also that you're a star.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  That was.

• 31:19Ina Garten?

  You're not just another cook.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know about all that, but.

• 31:23Ina Garten?

  I could tell them that.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Thank you. The one thing that made me really happy is probably, I've never said this in public, but when my parents came to Kabbalah last year, it was the best thing in the world.

• 31:42Ina Garten?

  So they could see who you are.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  Not even who I am, just see what they created. Not me.

• 31:48Ina Garten?

  What they've created.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  What they've created.

• 31:49Ina Garten?

  Yeah.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  You know?

• 31:50Ina Garten?

  That's lovely.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  I'm just a conduit. Like, like I said, I couldn't have done that without them. Right? They birthed me, they raised me, they gave me, you know, all the things that I have, the opportunities that I've been given is because of them, you know? And none of this happens.

• 32:09Ina Garten?

  That's incredible to honor them that way.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Like, absolutely not, like nothing. I can't, so none of this, like, I physically did it, but I couldn't have done it without them. And I was super happy to have them just see this space.

• 32:24Ina Garten?

  And be so proud of what, what you created.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  And see everybody that's working there and to see all the hard work that they put in to me and my brothers was not for nothing.

• 32:37Ina Garten?

  It was definitely not for nothing. And so many people love it. It's just wonderful. You get to make so many people happy. So I, I remember hearing years ago, Bobby Flay giving a talk. And somebody, one kid in the audience raises his hand and he goes, he goes, how do I get a show on Food Network? And Bobby gave such a smart answer that I'm sure you would appreciate. He said, you don't get a show on Food Network. What you do is you start out as a dishwasher and you learn how to do that really well. And then you become a prep cook. And then you go to culinary school and you learn everything you can possibly learn. And then at the end of the line, you have a show on Food Network. And I, I thought to a generation of young people who feel like everything's too much work,

• 33:22Ina Garten?

  it was such a great message. And, and yours is just saying, just do the work.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  Just do the work.

• 33:27Ina Garten?

  And that's, that's what propels you forward. I always feel like I just do the best job I can on what's in front of me. And you'll never know where it's going to lead you.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Never, you never know.

• 33:37Ina Garten?

  How do, how do you put a menu together? When I, when I had Bear for Contessa, I always tried to put the most popular things on the menu because that's what people came in for. Turkey meatloaf, grillum and chicken salad. I mean, sort of the classics, but I always wanted to have like new things that, that would surprise people.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:54Ina Garten?

  And it's, that balance is very hard to do.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  It is very hard.

• 33:56Ina Garten?

  How, how do you do that at Kabbalah?

• 33:58Speaker 01

  So at Kabbalah, once I decided that I wanted to do a prefix menu, I start with this. You cook for a long time professionally, you kind of understand the landscape, right? And I wanted a menu that could touch as many people as possible. Whether, whether you are a meat eater, vegan, strictly with a bunch of allergies, whatever it might be, so that everybody, not everybody, but most people could have some sort of choice. So from there, then I, it's like, you think of things that fit those things,

• 34:42Speaker 01

  but also fit your vision. So like, for instance, you want to make a dish that's gluten free. You're like, okay, what are the things that can be construed as Caribbean or are 100% Caribbean that are gluten free? And then you go through your like rolodex of like ideas or actual known things or through research, you, you have that grouping. And then you're like, okay, from your, at least my experience, what are the things that really resonate with people, right? Like, for instance, everybody loves steak, right?

• 35:19Ina Garten?

  Yeah.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  Vegans love steak. They just love to hate it, you know?

• 35:24Ina Garten?

  They just won't admit they love steak.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  No, they love to hate it. But it's, it's one of those things that's just like, so.

• 35:31Ina Garten?

  It's universal.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  It's universal. So it's like, okay, I could sit here and be like, oh, I don't want to do steak because like, you know, um, da, da, da, da. But it's like, how can we do a thing that people actually love? And it's a safe thing for people that will come into our space that might feel a little bit odd, right? The person that's vegan has honestly a lot of choices on Kabbalah menu.

• 35:58Ina Garten?

  Yeah. Like, what's a, what's a great, what's your favorite vegan choice at Kabbalah?

• 36:03Speaker 01

  So, all right, for instance, our first course that you, that you get, that everybody gets is like a little roti plate. And outside of the roti, everything there is vegan. So it's this little plate, no, with these little, I guess, like cups on it. And each one has a different chutney or filling or something. And then within the plate, there are two breads. There's one called Bami, which is cassava bread. And then roti, roti is chock full of butter. So that's not vegan, but it is vegetarian.

• 36:38Ina Garten?

  Yeah, vegans can't eat butter?

• 36:40Speaker 01

  No.

• 36:40Ina Garten?

  I would kill myself.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  So, so they don't get that, but.

• 36:44Ina Garten?

  Well, they can have one of those two.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  But one of, and all of the.

• 36:48Ina Garten?

  Oh, that's really interesting. People always ask me, how do you do a menu for people that don't, I mean, just for dinner party? And I, I always say, first, just remember, these are people you love. You've invited them for dinner and you want them all to have the same dinner. So it's a shared experience. And, and it's, I just love the challenge of finding a menu that everybody can eat. So it's not like we're all having lobster and you get the chicken dinner.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  The chicken.

• 37:14Ina Garten?

  You feel like you're left out.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:15Ina Garten?

  So, and that, but to do in a restaurant is incredible. You're really conscious of what the user experience is.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  And I also think that really adds to like joy, like.

• 37:26Ina Garten?

  Thank you so much for coming.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 37:28Ina Garten?

  Such a good time talking to you.

• 37:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, same. We should do this again.

• 37:32Ina Garten?

  Okay.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  Well, off camera.

• 37:33Ina Garten?

  How about, how about, off camera? And I can't wait to go to Bar Kabbalah and have a daiquiri.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  Please, please, please, please, come on down.

• 37:43Ina Garten?

  Happy Hour is hosted by me, Ina Garten. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman, Suzie Lechtenberg, Ali Jaffe Ramis and Deborah Davis. Kate Tyler is a contributing producer, Justine Don, a senior producer, and Jules Nada, producer. Mika Pollenbaum is our associate producer. Tim Fernandez is the video editor with sound recording by Jeff Gomer and audio mixing by Joe Plourde. Our camera operators for this episode are Liam Lee, Greg Pupura and Dool Davis. Music for the show was by Pink Martini. Special thanks to cinematographer Dion Beebe. Happy Hour with Ina is produced by Goodway Productions and is a Vox Media podcast.