The Social Fear That Keeps Us Lonely (and the easy fix) | Nicholas Epley

Nicholas Epley studies how people misjudge each other, avoid conversations with strangers, and miss out on life-affirming relationships. It all started when he noticed something on a silent Chicago train that changed how he thinks about the strangers he avoids and the people he loves but never calls. The thing stopping him wasn't what he expected. Epley is a professor of behavioral science at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business, where he's spent over fifteen years studying why smart, socially wired people routinely misread each other. His research on human connection has appeared in the New York Times and on NPR, and he teaches an MBA course called Designing a Good Life. His new book is A Little More Social https://amzn.to/45Ofcb1. What you'll explore in this conversation: Why the experiment that convinced Nicholas to talk to a stranger on a silent train started with him assuming it would go badlyThe specific belief researchers found sabotages more conversations than shyness, rudeness, or bad timing combinedWhat his team discovered when they photographed people's resting faces, and why it explains a train car full of strangers staying quietA kind word tends to land better than a polished one, according to decades of research on how we actually judge each other. Nicholas breaks down whyActing more outgoing than you feel might not cost the energy you'd expect, even for people who've called themselves introverts their whole lives If there's someone you've been meaning to reach out to, or a stranger you keep talking yourself out of talking to, this conversation makes the case for testing that instinct instead of trusting it. You can find Nicholas at: Website https://www.nicholasepley.com/ | LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicholas-epley/ | Episode Transcript https://www.goodlifeproject.com/podcast/how-to-talk-to-strangers-nicholas-epley Check out our sponsors and resources: Visit Our Sponsor Page https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sponsors/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jonathan Fields?

  So here's a wild fact. We tend to assume that people around us on trains and the coffee shops at the office, they'd rather just be left alone. My guess research says we have been wrong about that for years and the cost has been so much higher than we think. In this conversation, you'll discover why a commute spent talking to a total stranger, it left people happier than the one spent alone, even though almost none of them expected it to. We'll explore the two dimensions psychologists say we actually are being judged on the moment we open our mouths, why the personality label that you have worn for years, the sort of social orientation you thought you were, might actually describe less about who you are than the choices that you keep making by default, and the split

• 0:45Jonathan Fields?

  second thing that your face is doing right now that might be quietly telling strangers to stay away. Our guide is Nicholas Epley, the John Templeton Keller Distinguished Service Professor of Behavioral Science at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project and we'll jump in right after this break.

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• 2:17Jonathan Fields?

  This episode is brought to you by Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, hosted by Katie Milkman, an award-winning behavioral scientist and author of the bestselling book, How to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. Hear true stories from Nobel laureates, authors, athletes, and everyday people about why we do the things we do. Listen to Choiceology at schwab.com/podcast or wherever you listen. Really excited to explore the work that you've been doing over a period of years. So much of your research, it ties back in a really interesting way

• 2:57Jonathan Fields?

  to a random morning on a train in the South Side of Chicago. Take me there and tell me, tell me what happened, but also what penny dropped, what was revealed?

• 3:08Speaker 06

  Yeah. So this would have been maybe 2010-ish, somewhere in there. I can't quite remember the exact time, but I was getting on the train in the morning and riding in the University of Chicago where I work as a professor, like I've done for five or so years at least before then. And I sit down on the train and I'm in the midst of writing a chapter from my first book, which was titled Mindwise, describing how we've got a mind, human brain uniquely equipped for connecting with the minds of others, it's made happier and healthier when we're connecting with other people. And yet I had kind of this eureka moment as I was running through all this in my head. I looked around on the train and

• 3:51Speaker 06

  I noticed, surely not for the first time, but for the first time that something really clicked, that we were all sitting here, these highly social creatures, made happier and healthier by connecting with each other, and none of us were doing it. Not one. You could have heard a pin drop on the train that morning. And I'd been studying how we make inferences about each other's thoughts and beliefs and attitudes for years, enough to write a book about it. And I thought that maybe this might be one of the cases where we're misunderstanding each other's minds potentially. And so I decided that I was going to try something different that morning. I was going to experiment on myself that

• 4:31Speaker 06

  morning. And I had a woman sit down next to me that day. She was probably in her early 50s, African-American woman. I would have been in my mid-30s at the time, so she's 15 to 20 years older than I was. She was wearing this fabulous red hat. She was dressed professionally for work, ready to go. And had this, oh, she also had this great big mom purse that she was carrying with her. You know, that kind of magical bag that mothers carry around that has like everything you'd ever need in it. Quick, I gotta put up this picture so I need a hammer and my nose is runny. I need a tissue. And she's got both right there, ready to go. But I decided I was going to have a conversation. And so the second I decided to do that, getting ready to talk, and my brain starts screaming at me all

• 5:14Speaker 06

  the reasons why I shouldn't be doing this, why this is just a bad idea to do, that, you know, well, look, you don't have anything in common with her. She probably doesn't want to be bothered. She might think you're a creep trying to hit on her or something. You don't have anything to say to her anyway. But I decided to push ahead through that and I came up with a brilliant opening line. And I turned to her and I said, hi, my name is Nick. I love your hat. I have one just like it. And she, you know, she chuckled politely at the not so funny joke and turned to me with a big smile, almost looked like, and I remember this very distinctly, she had this big smile when she turned to me. It almost made her look like a different person, that her face shifted from this kind of dead

• 5:58Speaker 06

  going off to work face that we sometimes carry with us when we go off to work in the morning, had just a great big smile. And she chuckled. And then the conversation just kind of got rolling and it was, it was really quite easy to carry on. We talked about what she did for a living. She felt kind of stuck in her job, but she couldn't leave. She's raising a family and they needed her support and wasn't her dream job. I told her a little bit about the experiment that I had just enrolled her in with us having this conversation. And she, I remember her thinking that maybe we don't talk to each other as much as we used to because of the phones that we carry around that keep us distracted from each other and so on. And I remember I was getting up to leave and as I'm walking around her

• 6:40Speaker 06

  to get to the aisle, she holds my wrist just kind of gently and she says, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. As if, you know, with a sincerity in her voice that I distinctly remember, that suggested she was like happy to have been seen and, you know, connected with on that morning. And we didn't have any earth-shattering conversation, but I walked away thinking two things. One is, that wasn't just nice, it was surprisingly nice. And here's where I think my training as a behavioral scientist, as a psychologist, might cause me to look at this a little differently than other people might. What I noticed was

• 7:21Speaker 06

  the gap between my beliefs about how this might go, which drives and governs our decisions to reach out and engage with other people, and how it actually went. And it was a meaningful gap. I thought it'd be kind of cringey, mediocre, not so great. And it was really nice, right? Surprisingly nice. So that was one thing. The other thing that stuck with me was that I think I might be doing this quite a lot. That is, quite a few cases where I could connect with somebody, but, you know, a little weird, maybe now's not the right time. They wouldn't be interested in talking, might be, you know, misunderstood or something. And so I hold back and avoid it. And it seemed to me that, you know, maybe I'm not the only one doing

• 8:04Speaker 06

  this, but maybe the whole train might be doing that this morning. And if that was true, then this would really change the way I live my life. And it might really change the way a lot of people would live their life if we're making this mistake consistently. And so the eureka moment that I had, the penny that dropped for me that morning, was the possibility that misunderstanding each other, misunderstanding how it might go if we reached out to connect with somebody, might be keeping us from connecting with each other as much as would be good for our livelihood, good for our own lives and for those around us. And that started what was, has ultimately been 15 and counting at least

• 8:49Speaker 06

  years of research, tens of thousands of participants, 120 published experiments and counting on that, on that phenomenon.

• 8:58Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, there are so many things I want to tease out with you. You know, let's zoom the lens out. Let's go wide first, right? Because we've all heard through countless different sources now that, you know, whether it's the Grant Study for Men or all these different things, all these different data points tell us we are social animals, we're social beings. And if you look at all the variables that contribute to a life well-lived, everything keeps pointing back to the depth and quality of our relationships. And I think we all kind of know that, right? We kind of know it in our bones. We don't need the data. It helps, but we kind of know that anyway.

• 9:35Jonathan Fields?

  And yet, so many of us do exactly what you just described all day, every day. The second we step outside of our house, the shield goes up and we, we just completely, we not only don't take advantage of the opportunity to connect, we actively avoid it. Take me into the psychology of this. What's happening underneath that's, that's driving us to this?

• 9:59Speaker 06

  Yeah. So there, there are a few possibilities that we've tested through our, through our research. And it started by going back to the train that I ride in for the morning and looking at what happens if we ask lots of people to do this, to try to figure out what's going on that's keeping us potentially from connecting. One possibility is that talking to strangers actually isn't that nice. I mean, most of the research that you described is really about connecting with friends and family, these more, these closer connections, not as much the distant connections like that. It could be that we're being wise on the train, that talking to strangers would be scary and unpleasant and nobody really wants to. And so to, to find out if that's right, we ran a first experiment on the trains and

• 10:42Speaker 06

  we went to the south side of Chicago to Homewood, Illinois, ran an experiment where we asked people to keep to themselves and enjoy their moment in solitude that, that morning, to do whatever they normally do. That's a second condition. A third condition, we asked them to do something radical, actually have a conversation with the person who sits down next to them, try to get to know him or her a little bit. And we randomly assigned folks to one of those three conditions. And what we found was consistent with everything you just described, which is people actually reported having a more positive commute when we randomly assigned them to the connection condition than when we randomly assigned them to the solitude condition. So it doesn't seem to be that connecting with strangers is unpleasant. In fact, precisely the opposite. It's better than what people normally do and better than keeping to themselves.

• 11:27Speaker 06

  So why aren't they doing this? Why do these shields go up? To test that possibility, to see if maybe we're misunderstanding the outcomes of, of reaching out to connect. We ran another experiment where we asked people to predict how they would feel in each of these conditions.

• 11:45Jonathan Fields?

  Julie, before they do it, you're like, how do you think you're going to feel if, if dropped into this?

• 11:50Speaker 06

  Yeah. To do the very same thing that we do before we reach out to engage with almost anyone, which is we have a moment where we think, how's this going to go?

• 11:57Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. What you're doing there then is you're, you're making known the assumptions that we have about what's going to happen.

• 12:03Speaker 06

  Exactly. And as a psychologist, if I want to know what you're going to do, I want to know how you believe something's going to make you feel. I want to know your expectations because it's your expectations that are guiding your choices, not your experiences. You can't know what an experience might be like if you never have it, or if you choose never to have it. And so we asked people then to predict how they'd feel, to report their expectations. And when they did that, they actually expected that they would feel the happiest, have the most pleasant experience if they kept to themselves and if they connected with a stranger, right? So as obvious as this might seem, it's not obvious to people in the moment where they're thinking about reaching out and engaging with someone, and certainly not in thinking

• 12:46Speaker 06

  about engaging with a stranger, they in fact expected the opposite. But the behavior then, that people were exhibiting on the trains and, and, and that we might exhibit in many other places of our lives, makes sense in the sense that people are behaving in line with their beliefs. If they believed that connecting with a stranger would be unpleasant, they wouldn't do it. And what we really found that people believed wasn't actually that they wouldn't enjoy connecting. In fact, in a subsequent experiment, so when we asked people to imagine actually having a conversation, they actually thought they would enjoy their commute more. The barrier, the thing that was really getting in their way was they believed that other people wouldn't want to talk to them.

• 13:30Speaker 06

  And so they thought they were more interested in talking than other people were. And so if they reached out to connect, they might connect with somebody who didn't really want to talk, wasn't that interested, would reject them. And that's just what we're wrong about. And that's something that we see over and over again, is that the mistaken barrier, at least, that's keeping us from connecting with other people is being overly pessimistic about how other people respond to us when we turn to them and say, hi, I'm Nick, I love your hat, I have one just like it. That's what we get wrong is other people.

• 14:02Jonathan Fields?

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• 16:14Speaker 01

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep. Even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One, N A, Member FDIC.

• 16:45Jonathan Fields?

  So, I mean, it's interesting, right? Because if, if we dig even a layer deeper than that, do you, did they talk about this specific fear? Okay, so the other person might not, the, the fear is, okay, I think the other person, the person sitting next to me, wouldn't want this. They wouldn't actually want me to, to speak with them. They wouldn't want a conversation. Was there also a personal fear? Like, was there, because it's got to be an interesting other layer, like a fear of rejection, a fear of, you know, like, because I imagine we own, we bring our own experience, we bring our own pathology to this.

• 17:25Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 17:25Jonathan Fields?

  You know, so if we grew up in a household or a family culture or a friend culture, if we'd been bullied, if we had been ostracized. I've got to imagine that this shows up in all of this as well.

• 17:34Speaker 06

  Yeah. So a lot of these fears are kind of context dependent, depending on the situation you're in. A friend of mine, Gillian Sandstrom, who's another researcher who studies talking to strangers and, and social connection, she's in, she's in the UK, a wonderful psychologist. She often refers to this, these fears as the whack-a-mole problem, which is just all kinds of, you whack one down, there's another one there, there's, there's another one, there's a, and so, you know, it's not obvious to me, it's not obvious to me how concrete or well-formed any of these fears are. There's just a general, this is going to be, and some of it is, they're going to reject me. That can happen when people ask for help.

• 18:16Speaker 06

  For instance, they're often afraid of being rejected by another person. Somebody sits down next to you on the train, that might come in the form of them not really being interested and so not really, not really carrying on a conversation very well. But there's also the sense that sometimes you're intruding or being rude, right? So when we ran our experiments in London in the UK, that was a kind of a thought that seemed to be somewhat dominant. They were even more pessimistic about how positively other people's would respond. They thought they'd be rejected at even higher rates than folks here in the US did. And that was really one then out of politeness. It's not even, it's not, it's not that people are disinterested in others necessarily, although that can happen. It's that, you know, you don't want to intrude their boundaries, right?

• 19:00Speaker 06

  We all hear about this, that we gotta maintain these boundaries. And so we put up these fences and I don't want to intrude into your space that much. So that's another version that this fear can take, one that's actually kind of kind, or at least meant to be kind. But of course, the upshot of that kind of kindness is that you end up ignoring other people. And how, how nice is that? To not see someone or acknowledge them or pass along a smile to them or take an interest in them.

• 19:27Jonathan Fields?

  I'm also thinking about norms in terms of location. You just described London. So I live in Boulder, Colorado now, but I spent my entire adult life until recently in New York City. And the norm about conversation with strangers or people sitting next to you in New York City is radically different than the norm in Boulder, Colorado. You know, if you're, even if you're, if you're, you know, you're walking up to the counter in a coffee shop in the morning in New York, there's a line of people behind you. Everyone's got their head down. Nobody's talking. Everyone's trying to move as fast as it possibly can. The ethos, the norm is this is not a place for conversation. This is a place for expediency. I'm on my way to somewhere else. And if you try and stop me from that, like, that's not okay.

• 20:11Jonathan Fields?

  Even, even the person serving you behind the counter, you know, there's no conversation. There's no, hey, how you doing today? You walk up to the counter in Boulder, Colorado and the person's just like, hey, how are you? Like, got any good plans today?

• 20:26Speaker 06

  A little slower pace, a little, you know, less crowded than others. Yes.

• 20:31Jonathan Fields?

  Right. So like, I'm the same person.

• 20:33Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 20:34Jonathan Fields?

  But I, but I show up very differently and I have a different set of assumptions about how a social interaction with a stranger is going to go in Boulder versus New York.

• 20:43Speaker 06

  So it's worth, yes, it's worth noting that what people are doing, this is what they're doing on the trains in Chicago too. And this is what we do all around. Is we look to other people to figure out what seems to be kind of appropriate here. And then we don't test it. But of course, we're all doing this. And so what that means is that on the train in the morning, right, coming into Chicago, all of my, you know, friends, you know, potential friends, my friends I haven't met yet on the south side of Chicago sitting on the train, they're looking around, everybody's being quiet. And so they assume, oh, I guess that's what we're doing here. We're all being quiet. And you can then get a carload of people who would in fact be happier talking with each other. If somebody acknowledged them or engaged with them, nevertheless, keeping completely quiet because

• 21:27Speaker 06

  we infer that other people don't want to talk in this setting. We accept the social norm that's given to us there rather than testing it and seeing if maybe we are all acting out of some mistaken sense of a social norm. So when I go to New York, for instance, and I get onto the subways in New York City and other places where people ostensibly aren't supposed to talk to each other, I always talk to folks. And I always have lovely conversations, right? You take it as given when you're in a coffee shop in New York City, that those human beings don't want to talk to you and wouldn't respond with a smile if you tried. And I think what our data suggests is that when it comes to social connection,

• 22:07Speaker 06

  we're highly social animals. And if you're in a context where people aren't engaging, it's not because, doesn't have to be because they don't want to. It may just because people aren't and therefore infer that it's not okay. And you can test that. Pass along a smile or hello. Ask them, what do you love here at this coffee shop? Just see what they do. You might be surprised.

• 22:29Jonathan Fields?

  I guess one thing that's coming up for me also, I'm really curious about is

• 22:34Jonathan Fields?

  somebody thinking to themselves, I'm going to stumble with my words. I'm going to fumble. I'm going to be judged. I'm going to be rejected. And maybe I already have that in other parts of my life. Maybe I have a history of feeling that and feeling really awful when that happens. So, you know, it's not even about norms. It's not about not wanting to bug somebody else. But it's just a fear of like, I don't want to be rejected again.

• 23:03Speaker 06

  Uh huh. Uh huh. So that's an interesting one. And it is one that we thought might be going on, going on in lots of contexts. And, and it's got to be coming on sometime, going on sometimes, but we've had,

• 23:20Speaker 06

  we've had, we've, we found less evidence for that kind of memory based thinking than we, than you might imagine. So one possible interpretation of what's going on here is that people remember having bad conversations with strangers, for instance, that's a version of it. And I don't want to do that again. Right? And, and it's possible that maybe, you know, just the, just the worst experiences are the ones that really stick out in our mind, right? The, the one time you were rejected and it hurt, right? And that's what comes to mind. You don't want to experience that again. That's, that's what psychologists refer to as negativity dominance. And, but, but we, we actually didn't find evidence for that. I thought that was a plausible thing, that people were kind of using their past experience as a guide.

• 24:03Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. Cause it would sound like that would be something.

• 24:05Speaker 06

  It sure does. But we asked people, imagine that you had a conversation, you know, somebody who was really uninteresting was kind of negative. Imagine you're in a conversation with someone who's really interesting, was really pleasant, right? And then we asked people to imagine having a conversation with someone. And if they're kind of being biased by sort of negative past experiences, then that control condition, right? That unspecified condition would actually, their expectations would look closer to the negative condition. And they actually weren't. It was actually a little closer to the positive condition. Right? And this also works in the other way. When in our experiments where we have people go through a conversation with somebody, they then predict how they're going to feel

• 24:48Speaker 06

  a week from now in a new conversation, if they have another one, right? Immediately after the conversation, they're optimistic about how things will go. But then a week later, before they're about to have another conversation, they're right back where they started a week before. So that positive experience was fleeting too. We have a, surely to some extent, our expectations about an interaction are going to be based on our, our memory of past ones. But really what drives it a lot, I think, is the momentary construction of our expectation that we have at this time. So when you were in Golden, Colorado, and you walked into your coffee shop there, right? And somebody says hi to you, your belief about how that conversation is going to go is coming from that very moment. Right?

• 25:34Speaker 06

  It's constructed at that time. When you go into a coffee shop in New York City, it's constructed at that time, based on what's happening around you. Not based on a, as much as I might have imagined, on a, on a summation of your past history. A lot of it is coming on, on the fly. And those moments then, I think are what are really driving a lot of our choices and where a lot of those, those fears, sometimes misplaced fears can come from.

• 25:58Jonathan Fields?

  I mean, that's so interesting. So it's much more your immediate situational expectations about how it's going to go, not so much like this long history of how it's gone in the past.

• 26:07Speaker 06

  I think so. And I think that's also why we get these disconnects in some ways between kind of knowing that we, it's, it's good for us to be connecting with people. But yet when we are in the moment, choosing not to. Right? So we look around and everybody's wearing their resting dead face. Which interestingly, in just brand new research we've done, that we just analyzed the data last week. We find that if you ask people to just show a neutral expression, like they're thinking about something, but not thinking about another person, that face looks more similar to the face that they make when we ask them to look as unfriendly and unapproachable as they can. It looks more similar to that than when we ask them to make the face

• 26:48Speaker 06

  that they would make when they want somebody to come up and say hi to them. Right? So our, our resting face is, is, is rather, is rather bitchy. It turns out. So, you know, if you look around and people aren't talking, they've got their resting bitch face on. And, you know, they might look unapproachable, but it's those cues in the moment, which is why if somebody comes up with a smile and says hello to you, you're often happy to engage with them.

• 27:11Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 27:12Speaker 06

  Or if you see a friend come and sit down, you're happy to talk to them. Or you go to a networking event where the expectation is we're going to talk, you're happy to talk there. Right? These are really constructed at the time when we're thinking about reaching out to others. And we find that those constructions in lots of ways can lead us to be overly pessimistic.

• 27:31Jonathan Fields?

  So whether you are pessimistic or optimistic about how a conversation will go in the moment just before is largely, I don't know if the word determinative, but it has a really big impact on how that conversation actually will go and will be received.

• 27:48Speaker 06

  I call it determinative. It guides your choices. Absolutely. Right? Somebody sits down to you and says hello, you'll talk. If they don't, they won't. But that also means if you sit down next to somebody with a smile and you say hello, they're likely to talk too. And it's surprisingly powerful.

• 28:06Speaker 06

  A determinant of their behaviors, the way we we approach them. But yeah, it's it's really those moments. And this is also why, you know, this is also, this is also something that can can lead to avoidance is that at a distance, there are lots of things we can want and know we ought to do. Oh, yeah, I'll talk to a stranger tomorrow. No problem, right? Our approach oriented motivations tend to be strong when something is far away. I'm happy to try to do that thing. But as you get closer, closer and closer, and psychologists have known this now for a century, all of our fears, the reasons not to do it, those become more present in our minds. Those ramp up in their power. And that's why we sometimes get cold feet, right?

• 28:48Speaker 06

  Oh, I I saw that person on the train again, or on a plane, or I saw that person at work, right? Somebody in the office who I've seen before. I've got that neighbor, or I've I've seen her, you know, walking around the block before multiple times, and I really should say hi and, okay, I'll do that tomorrow. And then when she's walking by you on the sidewalk, right? At that time, you decide not to. And you and you go by, right? So that temporal distance up to the moment we actually had to make the decision also also matters.

• 29:18Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. So how do we, just on a practical level, on day to day level? How do we actually, in the moment, if we find ourselves, we're in a setting, whatever it may be? And we notice that we're surrounded by a whole bunch of people. We either don't know or don't know very well. Great opportunities to start a conversation. But we but we're in the key and we're like, oh, like, I'm literally telling myself the story of like, this is gonna suck. This is not gonna go well. Do you have a recommendation for like, how to reset that? Or is this literally just exposure therapy and saying like, just do it and let the evidence be like, like, can the convincing?

• 29:57Speaker 06

  Yes, in fact, it's exactly exposure therapy. That the only thing that really calibrates our beliefs about reality is reality itself. In fact, the guy who came up with exposure therapy, Stefan Hoffman, wrote that fear is like a parasite. It just feeds on itself and it feeds on the absence of information, on the absence of experience. So what Hoffman learned is that to actually treat social anxiety effectively, he's got a great book on this called CBT for Social Anxiety, which is a highly practical, practical, if not a little bit wonky, book for anyone who's who's interested in this, is to put people in the very social situation that they are afraid of. They can't stimulate it.

• 30:40Speaker 06

  They can't imagine they actually have to have to be in it. And what you learn that when you actually put yourself in this situation is two things he's found, and this is true from folks I've talked with over the years as well. And that's what we think people are learning in our experiments too, is one, other people are often nicer than you think. When you approach people in a nice way, you have power to elicit kindness from others when you approach them in that way. They tend to reach back to you the same way you reach out to them. And second, even if they don't, so if somebody's got their earbuds in and they put it back in after they say hi to you or whatever, they turn out not to want to talk, turns out you can handle that better than you think. It's actually not, it's actually not so bad, right? And so we have tried over the years, lots of things, to try to calibrate people's beliefs

• 31:25Speaker 06

  independent from actually getting the data yourself. And they can push things around for a moment, like just, just for a little bit. But it's, you know, it's like a, that's the size, it's like a whisper effect, right? That that's the kind of nudge that that is, is just a small one. But actually trying to think, testing those beliefs and testing it over and over again, and actually seeing what happens when you say hello to somebody, or take a meaningful interest in somebody, or ask somebody a deeper question than you might ask otherwise, actually watching what happens and getting the data yourself. You don't have to believe me on this. You can go out and try it yourself. That's how you calibrate your beliefs. And that's also how you learn your own, your own abilities.

• 32:10Speaker 06

  We all can manage conversations in slightly different ways. And you might be better at one thing than another. You might have a particular thing you enjoy talking about, or learn something that really works well for you in reaching out to somebody else. That you learn that from approaching other people. You learn nothing from avoidance.

• 32:29Jonathan Fields?

  And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Good Life Project is sponsored by NutraFol. So quick story from our house. When my wife Stephanie was in menopause, she noticed more shedding than usual. She like loves to read research before trying anything. And she landed on NutraFol. And something like six years later now, she's still taking women's balance formula every day, and she has noticed less shedding and more visible thickness. NutraFol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand, and it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists. Because hair growth isn't one size fits all, NutraFol offers different formulas for both men and women at any age or stage of life.

• 33:11Jonathan Fields?

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• 33:56Jonathan Fields?

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• 34:40Jonathan Fields?

  So I love buying books. And for some reason, I especially love buying used books. I just had so much fun, literally minutes ago. I picked up the entire Hunger Games trilogy of books for only $11 and also got this beautiful thank you from the seller and a welcome from all the others in the chat. Whatnot is the largest dedicated live shopping platform, from beauty to luxury fashion, even cookies, and you almost never pay full price. Plus, what really gets me is the other side of the screen. On Whatnot, anyone can sell, whether your business is big or small or doesn't even exist yet. You go live, share what you love, and build relationships with people who come back for you, not a logo. According to Whatnot, people selling there sell 10 times more than on other major marketplaces.

• 35:26Jonathan Fields?

  It's a real path to building something that lasts. Search Whatnot, W-H-A-T-N-O-T in the App Store, download, and you can start selling right away. What about, you brought up just before the idea of a networking event. So if we're thinking about rooms that we may find ourselves in, there are, there's, there are situations where you, you don't understand if there is a difference in power, if there is asymmetry in all different types of variables, right? And so you just kind of have to wing it, like it's a social situation. You don't know who anyone is. You walk up, you say hi. What about contexts where you find yourself in a room or space or an event or something like that, where there's a pretty strong expectation that there is a strong asymmetry here?

• 36:11Jonathan Fields?

  And maybe you're the person who feels like, actually, you don't belong in the room.

• 36:17Jonathan Fields?

  How does this play into it?

• 36:19Speaker 06

  So this is again, one of these sets of beliefs that's going to create barriers to reaching out that I think is probably misplaced, right? Most people are people, and they're happy to be treated as people. And when you go up to somebody in a kind way to reach out and connect with them, even if you think there's a power asymmetry, that's likely to go better than you might imagine, particularly if you're focused heavily on that, on that asymmetry at the time. Bill Hewlett, who founded Hewlett Packer, he had a famous, famous saying or mantra that he always tried to keep on the top of his mind, which is, never stifle a generous impulse.

• 37:02Speaker 06

  I love that thought, to just keep on the top of your mind. And if you have a generous impulse to go up and say hi to somebody, to be kind to them, to be civil, to to try to strike up a conversation and get to know someone, don't stifle that. Reach out. It's likely, I think, to go probably better than you think. And these other barriers about power asymmetries and whether, you know, it's okay for you to say hello in this particular situation, that can sometimes stifle a generous impulse when it, when it shouldn't. Could cause us to overthink and our own mind gets in our way and then we end up not talking at all, or we end up not approaching someone in a genuinely interested way. And that's going to get in our way rather than helping us.

• 37:44Jonathan Fields?

  No, that makes a lot of sense. I think this also references, and this is something you write about, this notion of what we expect ourselves to be judged by when we start a conversation versus what people are actually paying attention to. Like we, especially in that professional context, we're like, we need to show up because we need to demonstrate competence, expertise, skill. That's where the value is.

• 38:05Speaker 06

  Right.

• 38:05Jonathan Fields?

  That's not often what people are looking for on the other side of the conversation.

• 38:09Speaker 06

  That's not the number one thing. That's the number one thing in our minds, right?

• 38:11Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 38:12Speaker 06

  So what psychologists have identified are at least two dimensions that we judge each other on, that we evaluate each other on. There are likely more, almost certainly a third. But these are the ones that psychologists refer to as the big two, okay? One is competency. How capable, how effective are we when we're speaking to someone? How articulate are we, right? How well spoken are we? How knowledgeable? That's all about competency. And that looms large in our mind because we're agents. We're trying to do things. Thinking is for doing. And what we're trying to do is something effective because we're out there trying to do stuff, right? So when somebody sits down next to us, you know, somebody sits down next to me on the train, or, you know, I have a, have a kind thought that I might pass along to someone, or, you know, I feel grateful to someone, I'm gonna write him a letter.

• 38:57Speaker 06

  What comes to my mind first is, what am I gonna say? What are we gonna talk about? How am I gonna, how am I actually gonna do this, right? We're worried about our competency. Am I gonna look like an idiot if I ask this question in the room, for instance, right? That's what's coming to my mind. Other people, though, tend not to be as focused on that as we are ourselves. It's not that competency doesn't matter. It's just not the primary dimension that we evaluate other people on. What we want to know when we're evaluating other people is, is this person a friend or a foe? Is this person somebody we ought to trust and approach, or somebody we should avoid? Is this somebody nice or who's not nice? What we care about with when we're evaluating other people is the second dimension, which psychologists usually refer to as warmth. That's what's primary on our mind.

• 39:41Speaker 06

  Imagine somebody shows up at your door, or a stranger you don't know, comes up and says hello to you at a networking event. What are you primarily wanting to know? You're wanting to know, is this person a nice person or a scary person? Right? That's what we want to know first. And even in contexts where we might imagine competency is dominant, psychologists find that it's really warmth that is often carrying the day in terms of our overall impressions of people. And so, again, it's not that competency doesn't matter, but a kind word, a smile, genuine interest in somebody else, honesty, authenticity, goes a lot further than we might imagine. And so, when you lead with that, when you lead with kindness and then follow that up with, you know, competency,

• 40:25Speaker 06

  that's, that's how you approach other people. But if we're focused on our competency and other people care about our warmth, we're going to underestimate how well other people respond when we reach out to them in kindness in some way.

• 40:37Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. You use the word authenticity, which is an interesting word, and it comes up in a different context that I know you've explored. And it's this idea of the extrovert ideal. You know, we live in a world where Susan Cain is an old friend of mine, the person who wrote the book Quiet, you know, which is all about, you know, the power of introverts in an extrovert world. And we live in a world where we're often sort of, you know, whenever the topic comes up of your social orientation, you know, we're asked to say, are you an introvert? Are you an extrovert? Are you an ambivert? Now, there's extrovert, from what I understand, also just non-joiners. So, we look at it as, this is just kind of the way that we're wired.

• 41:21Jonathan Fields?

  Like, this is our type.

• 41:23Speaker 06

  Yep. This is what we like and what we don't like.

• 41:25Jonathan Fields?

  Right. You don't necessarily agree with that take.

• 41:27Speaker 06

  Yes. So, someone, that's, I can tell you a lot of data on this, but one of my favorite things is to talk about friends that I've made over the years. So, Jessica Pan is a friend that I've made in going through this research. She reached out to me. She's a, she's a wonderful journalist in the UK. She recently had a baby not that long ago, so hasn't been, hasn't been writing as much, although she just finished a book. She reached out to me, maybe 2016 or 2017, after she'd read about some of our experiments, like on the trains in Chicago. And she called me in a panic, just a total absolute panic, one day. It was one of the first times I talked to her, and she told me that she just signed a book contract,

• 42:09Speaker 06

  spent a year as an introvert, living as an extrovert. Yeah, as a self-identified shintrovert, she called herself, a shy introvert, right? And she was going to live a year acting more extroverted and report how it would make her feel. Because she was kind of inspired to do this by our work. And she called me just in a cold sweat, thinking she had just committed to ruining a year of her life. And so, she tried this over the year, looked to see what would happen. If she talked to strangers on the train, if she talked to the woman at the coffee shop, who she'd always admire, but had always been a little afraid to talk to. If she, she, she shook off some of these labels. She had gone through kind of a hard patch of her life. You know, had, had, had lost a job and had a friend move away,

• 42:52Speaker 06

  and it just was really feeling shaken and was feeling isolated. And she wanted to change that, right? You know, not everybody wants to change. Fine, that's no problem. But she wanted to change. I wondered how it would go. And over the course of her year, she learned how it went, that it went surprisingly well. And one of my most prized possessions is a copy of her, her wonderful book. She's a lovely writer and a lovely person, called Sorry, I'm Late, I Didn't Want to Come. And she, she inscribed the book to me, "Thank you for changing my life and that of many others." It's lovely, right? And so, I think that's the right way to think about it, is that these personality traits or labels become things that kind of create, create bars for us, right?

• 43:37Speaker 06

  That channel our lives in one particular way or another. And if you don't want to be channeled in that way, test that bar, right? Just, just see what happens when you reach out and try to make a connection. When that feels pretty good, just take note of that, right? But the other thing is, I, I actually just, I just don't think these labels are helpful. Because we're not a collection of traits. I mean, to some extent, we can be if we choose to act in line with them. So, if we believe that the Myers-Briggs actually describes our personality, you will behave in line with it, and then it will become your reality. But what we really are, are a collection of capacities, right?

• 44:19Speaker 06

  You can be quiet Jonathan on a given day, if you choose to be. Or you can be gregarious Jonathan, if you choose to be. You can be the Jonathan that puts his headphones in and ignores the guy or the gal sitting next to him on a plane. Or you can be the Jonathan that's kind and gets to know somebody and makes them feel welcome in this space when they might not have otherwise. Or the guy who goes a little bit deeper in conversation with someone and creates a friend in that moment, rather than sticking to shallow stuff. Or the, the guy who picks up a pen and actually writes a thank you note to someone you appreciate who's done something meaningful for you. Or you can decide, ah, I'll keep it to myself, that's not really me, right?

• 45:03Speaker 06

  You can be lots of different people. We're collections of capacities. We're not fixed traits. And so, I actually think we'd be much better off, this is where this concept of ambivert, by the way, has become so popular. What that means is that this label is just kind of nonsense. That's essentially what it means, right? And I think that's the way to think about it. You can be lots of things. Be who you want to be, right? And if you'd like to be more outgoing and happier, do it. Give it a try. See how it goes.

• 45:30Jonathan Fields?

  I love the invitation to think about it as sort of like a, a set of capacities that you can sort of like choose at any given moment, at every given context. I want to touch into one other thing. You just referenced this wonderful moment where, you know, this writer sends you a note, expressing her gratitude for the work that you've been doing, which feels like, you get something like that, it always feels good. You also share a really, like, a fabulous story that you waited 30 years to thank a high school band teacher.

• 45:58Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 45:59Jonathan Fields?

  And so, many of us, you know, like, you know, we're talking about just instance or like impromptu conversations, but they're conversations, I think, oftentimes that we've probably wanted to have, sometimes for years and years and years. Then it just feels like it's so long, it doesn't make any sense, or there's a million reasons we, we come up with not to have them.

• 46:15Speaker 06

  The whack-a-mole problem.

• 46:16Jonathan Fields?

  And then, when you finally have them, sometimes they're pretty magical.

• 46:20Speaker 06

  Totally, yeah, often totally magical. And you wonder, why the hell did I wait 30 years to tell Craig Ahnny, my high school band director, that he's the most amazing teacher I've ever seen? Right? Is it, is there ever a bad time to hear that someone appreciates you, right? And yet, because we focus on our competency, right? That's where these fears come. Maybe now is the right time, not the right time to pass along the compliment. I'm not quite sure I have the right words. In fact, I was, I caught myself doing this while I was writing this chapter on appreciation and gratitude. And I had done another podcast where someone asked me, I was doing the Hidden Brain Podcast with Shankar Vandatun.

• 47:02Speaker 06

  And he asked me, is there someone in your life who you feel grateful to, but you haven't reached out to express your gratitude to that, to that person? And I immediately thought of Mr. Ahnny, right? And I hadn't reached out. I don't know why I hadn't, I, because, you know, it was weird and it was a long time. And, but I channeled this guy, and I think about him every time I go into a classroom. He did amazing things with us as high school band students, many of whom, including me, didn't really want to be there. I was a tuba player, right? And I was mostly there to screw off and have a good time. I was a football player. And the ratio of football players to attractive girls in the band was, was pretty good for me.

• 47:45Speaker 06

  And so, you know, I had fun, I had a lot of friends there. And, you know, I was more in it for the social, for the social part of it. I enjoyed it. But I wasn't a musician. But he had a way of getting the best out of us, better than almost any, any teacher I've ever seen. His enthusiasm and passion for us was, was wonderful. Every one of his band students can still hear the sound of his voice screaming from the top of the bleachers, without a microphone, encouraging us in the middle of games or, or performances to continue. And so, when I actually did get over that hum, I think, this is, this is dumb. Of course, reach out to him. I got over that, that misplaced fear that he might not respond well. I sent him a note. He wrote back to me shortly, just saying I wanted to connect,

• 48:29Speaker 06

  that I'd had, you know, expressing my appreciation in a quick text, because I was able to get his phone number through a friend, just setting up a time to talk. He wrote back saying, Nick, I'm sitting on a park bench right now, close to my home, in tears. I'd love to talk. And it has been, you know, I, I had more conversations with him. I've sent, you know, I, when I went back home, I met up with him around the holidays this last year, and we just had a lovely conversation. I've sent him notes from time to time. When I get together with some of his other fans from my high school class, I sent him a note recently, I was in Kansas City, meeting with two of my friends, Todd and Marcy, and I sent a picture of all three of us to him. I mean, it's been lovely, you know? And he writes me notes, saying things like, thank you for validating my career. Right? And like,

• 49:16Speaker 06

  My bet is that almost every listener here right now can think of someone who they feel grateful to, who had a meaningful effect on their lives, who they really appreciate and love, but for whom, for whatever reason, they haven't sat down and just told them how much they love them and how grateful they are to them and how much they appreciate what they did for them. Right? And it's silly that those people exist, silly in the, in the, in the reality sense of the term. But of course, in our minds, what we're playing through are these, you know, I don't have the words. How can I say it? Now's the right time. They'll think it's weird. I haven't done this for 30 years. Right? And, you know, my advice is just, just test that. You just, just go out and test that belief. Please

• 49:59Speaker 06

  see how that goes. And I think you might be surprised by the outcome.

• 50:03Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, it seems like that is the meta advice here. Just test it.

• 50:07Speaker 06

  Yeah. In fact, that's what I do. That, that is my entire career as a scientist. Right? As I look at these moments where people have opportunities to connect and I test, why are or aren't they? And what I find is that people's beliefs are really, really important about how those interactions will go and that those beliefs are often systematically mistaken. And I don't know how this is going to play out in the lives of your listeners. I don't know how this is going to play out to someone right now who's thinking, yeah, this sounds great, but I'm not sure I can do it in this moment. Or I don't ride the train. I walk to work or I go on my commute or I don't, you know, I don't work at a university. I work somewhere else. I don't know how it's going to play out in your life. But in our research, we test those flags, those barriers that come up in people's minds and often

• 50:49Speaker 06

  find them misplaced. And my advice to listeners here is to take note of the flags in their own life, the bars that are coming up that are keeping them from reaching out in moments and just test them like we do in our research. Run those experiments on yourself like I did in that morning when I turned to that woman sitting next to me in the red hat. And just see how it goes. Collect the data. See how it goes. I think, I think it might change your life.

• 51:14Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I love that. It feels like a great place for us to come full circle as well. So in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?

• 51:24Speaker 06

  When in doubt, reach out. Our data don't suggest that you should be reaching out all the time, that it always turns out well, that, that you should be doing this 24/7. Our data suggests that we're sometimes overly pessimistic about other people for predictable reasons. And we underestimate the power that we have to create meaningful connection with people when we choose to try a little more often. And again, we don't have to take the really hard things. It's when, when you're on the fence, right? Don't take things that seem horribly risky to you. Right? So don't, don't talk to a guy in a back alleyway in the middle of the night. Fine. Right? Don't, don't invite someone up to your apartment, right? Who you've never known. Obviously, it's when you're on the fence, right? When you, you know, you'd like to reach out, you'd see somebody you'd like to say hi, or you'd

• 52:06Speaker 06

  like to pass along this note to someone, or you'd like to have a more meaningful with some conversation with someone than you typically have. But you're a little nervous how it would go. When you're on the fence, when you're in that doubt, moment of doubt a little bit, that approach avoids conflict. That's when you ought to test it and reach out and see what happens. And if you just change those moments a little bit, be a little more social, just reach out in those moments when you're in doubt. I think that'll make your life a little better, meaningfully better, in ways that change your character and eventually kind of become, become who you are. They change who you are.

• 52:40Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm. Thank you. So let's talk about some takeaways here. One thing that's really stuck with me, it's how much of my hesitation in social situations, they come down to predictions that I've made really my whole life about how people will receive me and how wrong they almost always are. I also was curious about the gap between how a conversation with a stranger will go and how it actually goes runs in our favor almost every time. We also walk around assuming people are grading us on kind of how short we sound, how competent we are, when what they're actually reading is whether we're warm. And that personality label you've carried maybe since high school, introvert or extrovert, Nicholas describes it as more of a set of habits than it describes who you actually are. You get to choose differently

• 53:25Jonathan Fields?

  on any given day. So here's what maybe you could try today. Think of one person that you've been meaning to text or call or just say hello to, or maybe even a stranger and do this small, slightly awkward version of what he did on that train. Not a grand gesture, just a quick hello. And if you could, do me a quick favor, share this conversation with just one person who, you know, needs to hear what we talked about, or leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. It helps us get discovered and brings more people into the conversation. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers, Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Troy Young and Alejandro Ramirez. Chris Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done

• 54:08Jonathan Fields?

  so, please go ahead and follow us wherever you get your podcasts. So you never miss a conversation. Until next time on Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project.

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