Jimmy Chin: The Cost of Risking Too Little

We spend a lot of time weighing the cost of risking too much. Jimmy Chin has spent most of his life on the harder question, which is what it costs to risk too little, quietly, for twenty or thirty years, until the years are gone. Jimmy Chin is an Academy Award-winning director, a National Geographic photographer, and a New York Times bestselling author. He made Free Solo, Meru, The Rescue, and Nyad, he skied off the summit of Everest, and he lived out of the back of a Subaru from 21 to 28. Then he turned fifty, started looking at his life in chapters, and went looking for people who could tell him what success meant to them at the start and what it means to them now. Those conversations became his new book, Rules to Live By: How Extraordinary Lives Define What Really Matters https://link.amazon/B024VsbvX. Here's what we get into: The question Jimmy says he has been asking since he was ten years old, and why the answer keeps moving while the question never doesWhat one of the world's great cellists realized in the middle of a technically flawless performance, and where it sent him afterwardWhy the founder of a three-billion-dollar company looked at his own growth numbers and felt sick, and the one sentence of his Jimmy channels at every crossroadsThe difference between a kid wanting a parent alive and a kid wanting a parent to feel alive, and what it takes to hold both at onceWhat a seven-year-old said to her father at thirteen thousand feet that he is still thinking about six years later If you have hit the season where the boxes are checked and the question underneath them has gotten louder, this one is for you. You can find Jimmy at: Website https://jimmychin.com/books/ | Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jimmychin/ | Episode Transcript https://www.goodlifeproject.com/podcast/the-cost-of-not-taking-risks-jimmy-chin Check out our sponsors and resources: Visit Our Sponsor Page https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sponsors/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  There are two great risks in life, risking too much and risking too little.

• 0:05Jonathan Fields?

  Most of us only ever count the cost of one of them. Our guest today, Jimmy Chin, has spent his life walking the line between those two risks. He's the Oscar-winning director of Free Solo and Meru, and one of the most accomplished mountain athletes and photographers alive. But he started as the son of Chinese immigrants in a small city in Minnesota, raised to become a lawyer, or doctor, or professor. Instead, he moved into the back of his Subaru and lived there for seven years to climb. Now at 53, a father of two, he's written a book, Rules to Live By, built on conversations with people like Yo-Yo Ma, Avan Chinard, Kelly Slater, and Chris Tompkins, all circling one question: what really matters?

• 0:49Jonathan Fields?

  We get into why Jimmy says he had his midlife crisis at age 10, why Yo-Yo Ma played a flawless concert and felt absolutely nothing, and why Avan Chinard looked at a billion-dollar milestone and was crushed by it, and how that affected Jimmy. But the moment I keep coming back to, it happens when Jimmy's seven-year-old daughter looks up at the Grand Teton in Wyoming, a peak that breaks grown adults, and says, "Dad, I want to climb that." What happened on that 18-hour day? And what she said to him up there on the mountain changed how he thinks about risk as a parent?

• 1:26Speaker 00

  Kids want their parents to be alive, but they also want their parents to feel alive.

• 1:31Jonathan Fields?

  Because the real question isn't how much you're willing to risk, it's what is costing you to play it safe? We'll also hear how Chris Tompkins lost the love of her life and went on to protect 17 million acres, and what a 13th birthday gift reveals about how Jimmy measures success now. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. And we'll jump right in after this short break.

• 2:02Speaker 02

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• 2:32Speaker 03

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work, and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 3:08Jonathan Fields?

  This episode is brought to you by Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, hosted by Katie Milkman, an award-winning behavioral scientist and author of the bestselling book, How to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. Hear true stories from Nobel laureates, authors, athletes, and everyday people about why we do the things we do. Listen to Choiceology at schwab.com/podcast, or wherever you listen. You have spent much of your life pursuing things that make you feel intensely alive. In your case, that involves things that are radically different than the typical person,

• 3:51Jonathan Fields?

  climbing and filming some of the biggest, scariest peaks and environments on the planet. And then, a couple of years back, you turn 50, and you start sort of like looking at the next season of life. And I'm curious, what questions do you start to ask as you move into that, that another mountain or another film project can't really answer in the same way anymore?

• 4:17Speaker 00

  I think I've been asking the same question for a long time.

• 4:23Speaker 00

  And if I was really going to break it down, it would be, what really matters in life?

• 4:35Speaker 00

  And the answers to that question have evolved, but in some ways, for me, the answer has

• 4:47Speaker 00

  kind of always come back to some similar thoughts. John Krakauer, a good friend and mentor of mine, early on in my career, said to me, "There are two great risks in life, risking too much and risking too little."

• 5:06Speaker 00

  And I think as I've gotten older, I've continued to examine the question of, what does it mean to risk too much? And what does it mean to risk too little?

• 5:21Speaker 00

  There are costs to both. I think we often think a lot about what it means to risk too much.

• 5:31Speaker 00

  I think we spend less time thinking about, what's the cost of risking too little? What's the cost of not taking the risk? What's the cost of not pursuing that dream, or that objective, or that thing that brings meaning in your life? And that's the fine line between the two of them. I feel like I had a midlife crisis when I was 10. At a very young age, I was like, what am I doing? And to what end? Like, I always felt this sense of urgency, like I understood that our time here is finite. And I was always like, I want to do more. I want to do more. I want to, you know, explore the world.

• 6:15Speaker 00

  I want to go on adventures. I want to feel something. I want my life to have meaning. I want the things that I do to have meaning. And that kind of sense, or that experience I had from a very young age, I don't know, it's a chicken or the egg question. You know, my parents were librarians at a small university in Mankato, Minnesota, which is a small rural, I wouldn't say rural, but it's not a very big town in south central Minnesota, and surrounded by cornfields and beautiful valleys and forests.

• 6:56Speaker 00

  But I always had the sense where I had to go out and explore the world, whether that was in the forest in my backyard, or the rest of the world. And, you know, I read voraciously as a kid because I was being fed a lot of books, and it really kind of, my imagination was always full of these wild adventures that I wanted to go on.

• 7:23Speaker 00

  And that really kind of, I think, set me off on this path.

• 7:29Speaker 00

  But that idea of, well, what am I willing to risk to do these things and to go see the world? I think I was weighing the cost of not doing something quite early in my life.

• 7:50Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, that sounds, at 10 years old, that's kind of astonishingly early for pretty much anybody. I mean, especially the way you describe your childhood also. And I know, like, your parents, first-generation immigrants. And from what I understand, like, the household wasn't a household where you were raised to just constantly challenge and constantly ask questions. Like, the ethos was very different.

• 8:10Speaker 00

  Yes, it was very different. I mean, I was challenged in the sense that, you know, I started playing the violin when I was three, and my parents really wanted me to do well and pushed me really hard academically. I started studying the martial arts probably at five or six. It's one of the earliest memories I have with my father. And I swam competitively, and there were really high expectations of excellence. And that's kind of been instilled in me, and that's a part of who I am, for better or worse.

• 8:48Speaker 00

  But I was just, I felt like I was just going through the motions. And I wasn't necessarily passionate about them. And at that age, I don't know that you're even supposed to understand what that means, but I felt, even at a young age, that's what I mean, I was like, there's got to be more. There must be something more. And I want to feel this, I don't know what it is that I want to feel, but there's something more I want to experience. And the first time I really felt that was, well, probably being a kid running around

• 9:29Speaker 00

  the woods and being like, wow, you know, the freedom of it, the exploration, the adventure. But I certainly felt it compounded when I found climbing and skiing and being in the mountains.

• 9:44Jonathan Fields?

  You know, coming out of that background, you end up, like you said, it sounds like you're kind of living a little bit of a split life. Like, you're following a certain prescribed path. You're doing the things that check a certain number of boxes, while at the same time, your mind is saying, there's this other thing out there, and I got to keep dipping my toe in it. You end up, then, making a really interesting move in your early twenties. You spend about seven years living out of the back of your Subaru from 21 to 28 or so, traveling around, climbing, part of, you know, part of the dirtbag world. And people are going to hear the word dirtbag, by the way, and they're going to assume that I'm saying something negative about you, but that's...

• 10:22Speaker 00

  No, that's a badge of honor.

• 10:23Jonathan Fields?

  Right, describe what the word dirtbag means in climbing in that world.

• 10:27Speaker 00

  I mean, for me, and for kind of my peer group in Yosemite at the time, this is way before van life, right? This is way before it was cool to live in your car. And, I mean, I guess Jack Kerouac thought it was pretty cool. But, you know, this idea of being a dirtbag was kind of a badge of honor, because the more dirtbag you were, the more committed you were to the lifestyle of climbing. And, you know, climbing for us wasn't really a sport. It was, it was like a religion. It was like a lifestyle.

• 11:13Speaker 00

  We were always out there pushing our limits as climbers, and...

• 11:23Speaker 00

  You know, boldness, those were things that, you know, we aspired to do, harder and harder climbs. And I mean, I think what you said earlier, just, you know, I think I had a life that my parents had a very clear idea that what they wanted for me. Growing up, it felt like, I thought there was only three jobs you could have, because it was, they were always talking about it. You can be a lawyer, a doctor, or a professor, and maybe a fourth one, going to finance. And, you know, by the time I got through high school, I was like, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be any of those, you know?

• 12:07Speaker 00

  And I went on to, to college and, but that's when I found climbing. And I was like, okay, this is something that I, I wake up every morning thinking about. And this is what I want to do. And so when I finished college, that's when I, I told my parents, I was like, hey, look, I'm just going to take one year off and move into my car and climb full time and ski full time and get it out of my system before I, you know, move on to my, finding a career. Obviously, they were very skeptical and they had a lot of good reason to be skeptical, because as you said,

• 12:48Speaker 00

  I lived in my car from the time I was 21 until I was 28. And just traveling, following the seasons, you know, I was doing all kinds of odd jobs to support myself, waiting tables, shoveling roofs on these mansions in Jackson, Wyoming, ballet parking, doing whatever it took to be able to feed this other lifestyle that I had. You know, fortunately, I picked up a camera somewhere in there and started taking photographs. And, you know, started making a small living as a, as a photographer.

• 13:30Speaker 00

  But I was really committed to these experiences. And, and I, and I had these moments of awe up in the mountains and these extraordinary profound experiences with, you know, some of my best friends and climbing partners. And I started to chase that. And, and I'm, I still chase that. It, it's, it's something about the human experience that, you know, I find precious.

• 14:03Jonathan Fields?

  I guess part of what I'm curious about, and this has been a curiosity of mine around anyone really who pushes the edge in ways that are in extreme environments where there are times where it's life and death, is like, what is the it? That you are, like, what's the thing that you're chasing? What's the feeling that, that lets you actually go to that place? And say like, I'm, I'm willing to go there and be there. What do I get in return for that? What am I?

• 14:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, it, it doesn't have to be life and death. And it's not like I'm always chasing experiences where I'm right on the edge, because I want to experience life when it's being seriously threatened. Those moments certainly happen and have happened. I think anything that's hard, that is, at least in my life, a pinnacle experience, they've never come easy. And that's just understanding the process of what it takes to achieve anything great, you know?

• 15:14Speaker 00

  And you have to take risks to do that, calculated risks. And I spend a lot of time examining why I'm doing it, you know? And when you talk about it, it's the sum of all the different experiences that come with it. You know, there's a lot of hardship. There's, there's loss. There's a lot of suffering. But the sense of achievement and satisfaction of doing something hard and achieving it

• 15:55Speaker 00

  is obviously something I've applied in other areas of my life. It wasn't just climbing mountains. Making photographs that speak to people, that move people, making films. Films are hard. Films are really hard to make. They, they, sometimes they take years of your life to make them. And I feel like every film is a miracle. If you finish a film, it, it's like a feature documentary or a feature film, you know, all the steps of the process to create those, I feel like they're all miracles and they've required you to put everything you have into them. But I think it's that sense of satisfaction.

• 16:40Speaker 00

  It's also having something to pursue. It, it, it gives my life meaning. It gives my life purpose. And it's mostly really difficult and really hard. And there's a lot of failures. And you have to pick yourself up off the floor all the time and you have to bet on yourself and trust yourself. But when you go through that experience and you're able to get to the place that you're trying to get or make the film that you're trying to make, climb the mountain that you're trying to climb, it's deeply satisfying.

• 17:21Speaker 00

  And that sense of satisfaction is part of it. But you learn also that, that, you know, I mean, I know it's cliched, but it's like the entire journey is, is what life is. And over the years, I've come to, you know, be a little less attached to the outcome and more focused on being in the present and in the moment, embracing whatever it is that I was facing, being grateful for it and understanding every day

• 18:03Speaker 00

  is a privilege to exist and what you're facing that day is your, is your life.

• 18:12Jonathan Fields?

  And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Good Life Project is sponsored by Ernesta rugs. So if you ever had a space that was almost right, not wrong, just close enough, for me, that's our front porch. It's where I go to think and have my coffee. But every rug we put out there has been whatever size was available. So it just kind of floats. And I kept putting off fixing it because getting the right size felt like a whole project. Then I found Ernesta. They make designer quality rugs, custom cut to the exact size of your space, so it actually fits instead of almost fits. Their design team even helps you nail the size completely free. And you can order five oversized samples to set right next to your furniture,

• 18:55Jonathan Fields?

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• 19:39Jonathan Fields?

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• 20:22Jonathan Fields?

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• 20:26Speaker 02

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One, N A, Member FDIC.

• 21:00Jonathan Fields?

  As you described, at some point, you pick up a camera along the way and you start to take pictures, a lot of what you're doing, of your friends, of the adventures that you're going on, which I think is really interesting because so often, the minute we put something between us and the thing, we become a witness to it and not a participant. We're of it rather than in it. That doesn't seem to be your experience. You seem to have found a way to say, like, these are two things I'm profoundly passionate about, and I've

• 21:39Jonathan Fields?

  found a way to bring them together so that one doesn't actually detract from the experience of the other.

• 21:46Speaker 00

  No, I mean, I've been doing it for so long, it's just become part of the process. And it was a perfect marriage for me of a creative passion with kind of a physical and active pursuit. And I just love that overall experience. And it also, it allows me to feel like I'm coming back with something, no matter what. I'm really grateful, looking back on my life. And you said, you know, like, I turned 50, and I was looking at my

• 22:30Speaker 00

  life in chapters or phases, and I was thinking about the next chapters and the next phases of life. In a way, that was the genesis of writing this book, Rules to Live By. And I really wanted to explore that with people who I really respected and admired.

• 22:53Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. I mean, very much with yours woven into the whole thing, though. I love the way that you brought it together. One of the things that you explore is, so you've teamed with often people who are, they're the best in the world at what they do. Arguably, so were you. You've had the chance to get to know people like Yo-Yo Ma. Interesting sort of like realization that he shared with you, I want to, I'd love to drop into a little bit more. Like, he told you about preparing for a recital, if I remember correctly, like, played it beautifully, and at the end, felt almost nothing. Which, as an observer,

• 23:34Jonathan Fields?

  you probably look at that and say, how's that even possible? Take me into that. Like, what was really happening here? And what did you take from that?

• 23:41Speaker 00

  I mean, Yo-Yo is someone I've admired for, you know, as long as I can remember. I think in the book, I talk about my mom taking me to a concert that he played when I was quite young. And I had always gone through the motions of playing the violin, and I hated it, and I was like, why am I doing it? But I had to do it perfectly so that I could finish practice and go play. And when I heard him play for the first time, I thought, there's something more here than going through the motions because of what

• 24:20Speaker 00

  he's making me feel. He's expressing something so deep, and it really moved me. And I think that's what he's talking about in the chapter. When I'm talking to him, he's invited to do this big concert, his first big show. And he practices for a year, and it's perfect. And he's in the middle of the concert, and he's playing it perfectly. And he has this realization. He's like, I don't feel anything, and I'm still playing it perfectly. There

• 24:57Speaker 00

  must be more. There must be something I'm missing. And, you know, I think that he discovers that it's about expressing something inside of him. You know, it's an expression of who he is, and he had lost sight of that piece of it. Or he didn't even know it had existed. And now, he was on a different path after that. It wasn't about playing it perfectly. It was about, his music had to have something to say. It needed to express something. And

• 25:40Speaker 00

  he goes, and he continues on that journey. I think that's a great metaphor for all kinds of things, right? He really examines his intention behind his work. And I would say a big part of that is about connecting people, making people feel human, making people feel something. And that's extraordinary. I mean, a lot of these conversations I had were really moving. There, we talked about ideas that I had, but to hear them kind of confirm it in this way.

• 26:16Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. I think, I totally agree. I think that's so transferable to so many people in so many parts of life, you know?

• 26:24Speaker 00

  It's transferable to the work that I do, you know? It has to come from the heart. I know what I'm trying to express in the film. I know how I want people to feel. It's, people often ask me, well, how do you direct? And everybody has a different process. But for me, I'm always thinking about, well, how do I want people to feel? Because I'm usually drawing, I'm always drawing from a personal experience. I'm like, I know how that made me feel, and that was really deep and really human. And I want to express that

• 27:06Speaker 00

  so other people can feel what I'm feeling, that feeling. And it can be all kinds of different human experiences. The sense of bond in a friendship, and trust in a friendship, or even what it feels like to lose something, or to suffer loss, or to face something really challenging that you don't think you can achieve, feeling that doubt, but coming out of it on the other side because you trusted yourself, or you trusted your partners, or you trusted the people around you. You know, there's a feeling I'm trying to express. But Yo-Yo Ma's music does that.

• 27:51Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 27:52Speaker 00

  Go see Yo-Yo Ma play live, perform live. It's extraordinary.

• 27:59Jonathan Fields?

  One of the other people who you spotlight in the book, and this is, you know, this is somebody who you've known for a really long time, Yvon Chouinard. If folks don't know the name, pretty much everyone does know what he's created with, which is this company, Patagonia, which has grown into this incredible company. And you have this conversation with him where he talks about kind of knowing how a big company should be, and being willing to stop. Stop at a point where most people would say, like, this is not what you're supposed to be doing, you know? He says, we're literally getting too big. You describe a meeting where, like, senior leaders are coming, like, we had a

• 28:41Jonathan Fields?

  billion dollars, or whatever it was. It's incredible. Like, we're tracking. And he's just like, this is terrible.

• 28:48Speaker 00

  He's so bummed.

• 28:50Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. What's going on there? Take me there.

• 28:52Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, first of all, I just don't think he believes in the model of limitless growth, right? Like, to what end? And I have known Yvon for 20, maybe 25 years now. And I'm always trying to spend time with him. You know, one of the things he says in his chapters is, it's so easy to complicate your life, and so difficult to simplify it. And, you know, I think he's one of those people who's always conscious and thinking about,

• 29:36Speaker 00

  you know, well, what really matters? We're going to chase all this stuff. To what end? And he is someone I kind of channel when I'm at the crossroads for some decision. I'll be like, well, what would Yvon do here? And that's one of the things I love about writing the book, or talking to these people, is that they were like models for me to like channel in certain moments, you know? And Yvon is...

• 30:12Speaker 00

  Just incredible in that way. He has such a clear view of life, of business, of what really matters. And he ends up building this company that's worth $3 billion. And he built it brick by brick. And he ends up giving it away to, for the environment. And I love that. He talks about, he's like, you know, where I live in Jackson, the half the electrical is out. I've, I've been there. There's like nails in the wall where you're hang, where he's hung cast iron pots.

• 30:54Speaker 00

  And there, he's lived like that for, I don't even know, probably 50 years in that same house. And he's a billionaire, right? But he ends up deciding, well, I don't want to take it public because it will lose, you know, the soul of the brand and, and what it stands for. Because shareholders just want to make it grow and grow and grow. And that's not great for the environment. And he's like, I don't need more money. I live a simple life and my children are the same. They, they live simple lives and they live fulfilled lives.

• 31:37Speaker 00

  More money isn't going to change that for me or for them. And so we're going to give it away. We're going to give it to a foundation that the interest in keeping the, the business profitable is in order to keep it alive, in order to continue funding environmental causes. And, you know, to him, it was so clear that it was like, there was no other choice. It was so obvious to him. And, and you can imagine how difficult that might be.

• 32:14Speaker 00

  That decision would be for a lot of people, a lot of founders, entrepreneurs, you know? I'm, I'm just gonna hand it over. I'm not IPO-ing. So I admire him so much. And he's enriched my life so much with his perspective of the world. And, and I, I hope people get, get something out of reading his chapter.

• 32:43Jonathan Fields?

  When a project comes to you, because I would imagine like you're, there are probably a lot of things that you could say yes to in your life, right? Whether it's just a personal adventure, whether it's a film project, whether there are probably a lot of yeses coming your way or, or the opportunities to say yes. Are you, are, are there moments where you're really challenged, where you look at that and you're like, there, there's a huge upside here? Like there's an apparent upside that anybody would love to say yes to, but there's a voice in you that says, but this is not for me?

• 33:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, that's taken years to refine.

• 33:19Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 33:20Speaker 00

  Right? Because as you're kind of starting on your path in, in a career, you're, you're just taking opportunities as they come. And, but certainly over the years, I've become a lot more discerning about the projects I'm going to take on. And whether that's, you know, films or climbing objectives or time with different types of people, you know, it's, it's, I've really had to focus on, again, this question. Well, what really matters?

• 34:02Speaker 00

  Legacy, family, personal ambition, money? You know, what is it? What, what, what, what matters? And so I've gotten a lot better at saying no. It's still hard for me because I do have a lot of drive and a lot of ambition. And there's so many things I still want to do. There's a ton of climbs I still want to do, you know? They're still on that list. But that time is finite. I, I talk about it in the book. It's, none of us are getting out of here alive, right? And so we only have time. Time is the only currency.

• 34:47Speaker 00

  And it's one of those things that you can only spend and you can't earn time back. So what are you going to do with it? But a lot of the people I talked to in, in the book, our later career have had extraordinary lives, extraordinary successes. And I was really curious, when I talked to them, I was like, okay, well, what did success look like for you when you started? What does success mean to you now? And there's a fairly common thread for these people. Kelly Slater, Ridley Scott.

• 35:27Jonathan Fields?

  What was the pattern that you were seeing?

• 35:29Speaker 00

  Well, it is. It's, it's what Yvonne talked about. It's simplifying. It's simple things, you know? The end of Kelly's chapter, you know, after 11 world titles, starting a brand, starting the surf ranch. I mean, he's had a lot of great successes, but he talks about spending the day at the beach with his kid and being present for that. Learning how to be honest with people.

• 36:08Speaker 00

  The successes that we might not think of as a huge win for Kelly are huge wins now. And, and I'm, I've come to those realizations myself. I look around at my life and I'm thinking, well, what is it that I really, really want? Well, it's time with my children. And it's time with loved ones, with family, shared experiences with them. It's not having more stuff, you know? It's, it's having these experiences with my, my kids.

• 36:52Speaker 00

  And, you know, it was my daughter's 13th birthday a few days ago. And I'd been pondering, what am I going to get her? When am I going to get her? And, you know, I got her a few nice little things, but really the thing I was giving her was this certificate. It said, certificate, good for one daddy daughter surf, climbing or skiing trip. She gets to decide, but that's, that's, that's the present, you know? It's an experience together and time together. Time to climb, time to do these things that like really fill my soul and rejuvenate me

• 37:36Speaker 00

  and allow me to put the phone down and spend time with my friends.

• 37:42Jonathan Fields?

  I mean, so often it really comes down to that, you know? I think family in various different ways, it just keeps re-entering the equation in different ways during different parts of your life, you know? You look at you and the relationship that you had with your parents, the way that they first thought about you and the choices that you were making when you decided to go out and live out of your Subaru for seven years. And then it took a long time for them to come around and be like, oh, wait, the kid is actually doing good. Your mom, at one point, I know you share the story, she, she literally asked you to promise that you wouldn't die before she did. And I know after, after she did pass, you know, for a bit, you felt released from that promise. And then you become a dad, right?

• 38:26Jonathan Fields?

  You know, your daughter's born and, and it's, it's almost like the same question comes back to you, but different roles. I'm curious how you becoming a dad made you think about risk?

• 38:43Speaker 00

  In some ways, it hasn't changed how I think about risk because it's always about taking calculated risks. It's not like I wanted to die less than I want to die now. Like I was, I've, I've always wanted to live and, and, and experience as much life as possible. So the calculations, I'm still doing them objectively and I'm still asking the questions. Well, what is, what is the cost of risking too much? And what is the cost of risking too little?

• 39:23Speaker 00

  I think selfishly, I make decisions in those moments because I want to hang out with my kids more because they're cool and I, I love them. And, you know, I would never want to leave, you know, my kids behind or have them suffer a loss. Because I've seen, you know, some of the friends I've lost were parents. I've experienced it.

• 39:59Speaker 00

  And it's never justifiable in some ways when you lose a person in the mountains. Them doing what they love, but yet we understand, especially in my peer group. I, I feel like people have examined that question a lot. And, and the risks that they've taken have been intentional and deliberate because they've weighed the costs. And those are really personal, right? It's, it's easy to judge from afar, but, you know, I think people either dismiss or take for granted that these are really deliberate choices.

• 40:42Speaker 00

  And especially people who are parents, what do you want to leave your children with in terms of, do you want them to have the courage to follow their dreams, to pursue things that are hard?

• 41:05Speaker 00

  I want to instill that in my children. And, you know, I probably make different decisions in the mountains as I've grown older, just because I have a lot more experience. My risk calculus is much more refined. So it could look like I'm being a lot more conservative. But

• 41:28Speaker 00

  it's also based on experience.

• 41:31Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm.

• 41:31Speaker 00

  And, but yeah, it's, it's a, it's, it's a tough question. I mean, I, I interviewed Lindsay Adario on this.

• 41:39Jonathan Fields?

  Right, confly photographer.

• 41:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, and, and, you know, I think she's in the Ukraine right now photographing. And her line of work is also very dangerous. And she has two kids. I made a film about her, Love and War. And, you know, we, we talk about it a lot. And

• 42:02Speaker 00

  what is it to, to be

• 42:06Speaker 00

  a parent

• 42:10Speaker 00

  that

• 42:12Speaker 00

  isn't living the life and following the calling? Because they feel like they're sacrificing it for their children. And I talk about that in my book. It's like, kids want their parents to be alive.

• 42:28Speaker 00

  But they also want your parent, their parents to feel alive, you know? So it's a thin line.

• 42:37Jonathan Fields?

  I mean, it seems like part of what you, you do also, or the way you write about it with your kids, is you invite them into it. You know, you can tell this wonderful story about, I think your daughter was seven years old.

• 42:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:51Jonathan Fields?

  And you bring her up, up her exum in Grand Teton. Explain what that is to Fiva and why this, it's a great story.

• 42:58Speaker 00

  I mean, it's a, the Grand Teton is the biggest mountain in the Teton Range.

• 43:03Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 43:03Speaker 00

  In Grand Teton National Park. And when you go to Jackson, Wyoming, you look up at the range and you see it and you're like, okay, that's the Grand. And it looks really big and it's pretty intimidating. And I've been up there. I mean, I've climbed it a lot, but

• 43:23Speaker 00

  you know, it's a big intimidating mountain. And I've been up there with grown adults who've, you know,

• 43:31Speaker 00

  fallen apart up there or just, it was too much. And

• 43:39Speaker 00

  it's funny because my daughter grew up around my peer group. You know, Alex Honnold taught her how to climb. She lived in Yosemite while we were making Free Solo. And then during the release of the film, because she was five, we took her to all the events and all the screenings. And we had to do press and all these other things. So she would just plop in and watch the movie. I think she probably watched it like 50 times. I think that was imprinted in her mind that, oh, yeah, to do hard things, you gotta do, you know, put your time in, be really calculated, put one step in front of the other,

• 44:21Speaker 00

  slowly expand your comfort zone and do these things. And

• 44:27Speaker 00

  at seven, she said, Dad, I want to climb the Grand Teton. And before I could even respond, one of my friends who overheard her was walking by and just said, oh yeah, you should totally do that.

• 44:39Jonathan Fields?

  Haha.

• 44:40Speaker 00

  And I thought, well, okay. I was like, well, the, the most important decision about climbing in these mountains is who you want for your partner. Like picking a good partner is really good. And she just said, oh, Conrad, Conrad Anker, who.

• 44:54Jonathan Fields?

  Who's like legendary climber.

• 44:57Speaker 00

  Legendary climber. My mentor, I made a film about him, Meru. And he's just been a part of her life since, I think he held her when she was three days old. She's like, oh, Conrad. And I was like, oh, that's a good choice. And so we went up there and she, I had a moment with her where she, she got a little scared. And she said, I'm really tired. It was like four in the morning or five in the morning. I was like, we have to get around this, you know, ridge and then we'll be in the sun and it'll be a little warmer. And she said, okay. And then we, we, we climbed past all these parties.

• 45:40Speaker 00

  Cause Conrad and myself and Marina was, were moving pretty well. It was funny because the people were like, oh my gosh, it's Conrad Anker. And then they'd see me come up and they'd be like, oh, wow, it's Jimmy Chin. And then they would see Marina and then they, they really freaked out.

• 45:57Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 45:58Speaker 00

  They were like, anyways, we get around this corner. It's sunny and she's like, I need to take a nap. And we were like, cool, no problem. We got her on the corner and she took a nap. And then we went on and climbed it. But I had this moment where she was up high in the mountain. I looked at her.

• 46:15Speaker 00

  And I have a photo of it too, of the moment around that time. And she looked so tiny. She, she looked just so, so tiny up there on this massive mountain. And, but yet so comfortable. She's got an ear to ear grin. She's with her dad, she's with Conrad, we're doing the thing. Um, we summit early by like 10:00 in the morning. And then we, we go down and it's a huge day. It was like an 18 hour day. And she was just game. And I was so proud of her. It was one of the best days of my career in the mountains in my life. Just seeing her up there experiencing,

• 46:59Speaker 00

  experiencing this, this moment and experiencing the mountains in this way. And I think she'll always remember that.

• 47:09Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. Did, um, what was it like for her to have, because, you know, like you said, she was, she was with you like all the time before that. But what was it like for her to not just hear about or read about or watch? Like what her dad is like in those moments, but actually like

• 47:28Jonathan Fields?

  be there with you to see that and also feel it herself, like.

• 47:31Speaker 00

  Well, it's funny because there is a few moments, she was tied to the rope with Conrad leading. And then I was soloing next to her, around her, because the, the terrain was fairly pedestrian for me. And she'd be like, Dad, you know,

• 47:48Speaker 00

  be careful. And I'd be like, oh, I got it. But the fact that she had the wherewithal to like, look at me and say, hey, be careful here, this part was hard. And, you know, I've climbed that thing quite a bit. Yeah, it was amazing. And I, it, it is a shared experience that I think really showed her level of trust for me and my level of trust in her. It really strengthened the bond and understanding I have with, with her.

• 48:21Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, it's beautiful. And also showed her who you're with. Like the choices you make about who you choose to do hard things with or just life with is so important. Like you can change everything, right?

• 48:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:35Jonathan Fields?

  And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

• 48:40Jonathan Fields?

  Good Life Project is sponsored by NutraFol. So quick story from our house. When my wife Stephanie was in menopause, she noticed more shedding than usual. She like loves to read research before trying anything. And she landed on NutraFol. And something like six years later now, she's still taking women's balance formula every day. And she has noticed less shedding and more visible thickness. NutraFol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand. And it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists. Because hair growth isn't one size fits all. NutraFol offers different formulas for both men and women at any age or stage of life. And now the NutraFol Women's Formula has been upgraded to its most advanced version yet.

• 49:23Jonathan Fields?

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• 50:07Jonathan Fields?

  there's already holly jelly music playing in the grocery store, reminding you that the year is coming to a close. Time to kick end of year into high gear. When you use Apple Card with Apple Pay, you earn 2% daily cash back on all purchases, including food, decorations, gifts and more. Get a head start on your end of year purchases. Apply for your Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone today and start using it right away with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval, Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at applecard.com. Good Life Project is sponsored by Whatnot. So I love buying books. And for some reason, I especially love buying used books. I just had so much fun literally minutes ago.

• 50:52Jonathan Fields?

  I picked up the entire Hunger Games trilogy of books for only $11. And also got this beautiful thank you from the seller and a welcome from all the others in the chat. Whatnot is the largest dedicated live shopping platform. From beauty to luxury fashion, even cookies, and you almost never pay full price. Plus, what really gets me is the other side of the screen. On Whatnot, anyone can sell, whether your business is big or small or doesn't even exist yet. You go live, share what you love and build relationships with people who come back for you, not a logo. According to Whatnot, people selling there sell 10 times more than on other major marketplaces. It's a real path to building something that lasts.

• 51:34Jonathan Fields?

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• 51:43Jonathan Fields?

  You wrap up the book, if I remember this correctly, I think it was the last part, talking about Chris Tompkins, who has very little patience for hope that is not accompanied by action in some meaningful way.

• 51:55Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 51:55Jonathan Fields?

  Take us into who she is and how this really, how her lens affected you and the choices you make.

• 52:03Speaker 00

  I mean, she grew up in California and got to know Yvonne Shenard at a very young age. And she was, when she first started working for Yvonne, she was like an assistant to a packer, someone who packed boxes to deliver. She eventually rose to the top of Patagonia and became the CEO of Patagonia and really took it from a small company to a very large, you know, global company.

• 52:40Speaker 00

  And so she really lived that life and then at some point decided, you know what? I'm bored. I need something more in my life. She happened to meet Doug Tompkins, who was a good friend and climbing partner of Yvonne's. They'd done first ascents around the world. But Doug was really most famous for starting the North East and later Esprit, which was a 900 million, close to a billion dollar company in like 1986, right? Like hugely successful.

• 53:20Speaker 00

  They both decided to walk away from that, those lives and move to Chile, to Patagonia, and start buying land to eventually give away and create international parks. And this was a 25 year dream. And they decided that they were going to put everything that they'd learned and experienced in building businesses to save the environment. And, you know, she loses Doug during that journey. He dies in a sea kayaking accident.

• 54:04Speaker 00

  And this, it was the love of her life and she wasn't sure how to move forward. And at some point, she gets a letter from a friend that says, you can continue to be the grieving widow, or you can do something. And so she picks up the reins for essentially building the Patagonia Land Trust and now named something differently, but ends up preserving 17 million acres and building 17 national parks and giving it away to Chile.

• 54:48Speaker 00

  But, you know, and after she lost Doug, she said, you know what? The worst thing happened to me. I have nothing to lose and I am going for it. And she said that it really kind of narrowed her focus. And, you know, she has to deal with heads of state, you know? And she's like, you know, after that, I didn't worry about it. I, you know, I walked in there and I knew what I needed to do. And she, yeah, achieved in my mind, the impossible, you know? And she continues to do that work.

• 55:29Speaker 00

  And I, every time I see her, she's, she's ageless. You just see the sparkle in her eye and she is just, yeah, what I would consider a very powerful human being and not, not by status or money or she knows what she needs to do and she does it.

• 55:58Jonathan Fields?

  The power of being on mission, absolutely. So many people that you've talked about, you know, the idea of really knowing themselves, having a sense of clarity and then being willing to, to put effort behind that. It just keeps coming up over and over and over. When you think, so as we're having this conversation, you know, you're 53, 54 at this point.

• 56:25Speaker 00

  I'm going to turn 53 in a couple of weeks.

• 56:28Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. What do you think about when you think about, okay, so I'm looking at the next five years, 10 years, and this is what really matters to me? Like this is where I want to spend my energy. What bubbles up around that now? And is it different than it, than it used to be?

• 56:49Speaker 00

  The contribution, the most impact I feel like I have now is that I have a platform as a storyteller. And I think I've always been kind of a bridge between worlds, whether that was growing up as a first generation Chinese kid in Minnesota. And bridging different worlds, you know? Whether that's Meru or Free Solo, trying to express or share an understanding and

• 57:25Speaker 00

  a feeling that I've gained from doing the things that I do with a different audience. And films, books, storytelling, one of the most powerful things about stories, I think in general, is it can change people's points of view. You know, I think about my, my next 10, 15 years and I think about what I want to do. Obviously we talked a little bit about that, but in terms of storytelling, you know, I've constantly been refining my ability to tell stories in a way that's meaningful and that

• 58:10Speaker 00

  I hope connects people. You know, films, you know, create empathy. They, they share a point of view and experience of someone that you might never have related to or thought of. And there's some, something that they can teach you. And, and that's this book too, you know? It's like, we have so much to learn from each other. And in this day and age, when it's like, we're being pulled in all these different directions, staring at our phone or using an AI therapist, it's like, no, humans still matter. And that connection, human to human is still important.

• 58:51Speaker 00

  Being able to empathize with someone is still really important. And, you know, I hope the films I make in the future continue to do that, to connect people and to remind everybody that we're still human. Let's take a stab at what's, what's really important in life. So I'm going to continue doing that and, and I still love doing that, you know? So, and, and it is also to embrace life with the good and the bad. It's really easy to lose sight of what we have, what we can be grateful for and to just

• 59:32Speaker 00

  remind ourselves it's a privilege to be alive every single day that you're alive. So I have to remind myself that a lot too.

• 59:43Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I think we all do. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle. So I always wrap with the same question in this container of Good Life Project. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?

• 59:57Speaker 00

  To love and to be loved. To live with gratitude.

• 1:00:05Jonathan Fields?

  Thank you. So let's talk about some of the big ahas and takeaways from this conversation. One thing I keep coming back to is something Jimmy said almost in passing, that he's been asking the same question since he was about 10 years old. What really matters? The answer keeps changing to him, you know, and it should. The question though, it never does. Three other things that I'm really thinking about here. One, his mentor, John Krakauer, told him early on that there are two great risks in life, risking too much and risking too little. And almost all of us only ever run the numbers on the first one. The second is Yoyama, mid-concert, playing a piece flawlessly after a year of preparation

• 1:00:47Jonathan Fields?

  and feeling nothing at all, which is when he understood that the notes were never really the point. It's what it does to you and to others. And three, the line Jimmy walks as a father. Kids want their parents alive and they also want their parents to feel alive. It's a difficult, challenging thing for him to navigate and something for us all to really think about. So here's something to maybe think about this week also. Think about one thing that you've been saying no to for years out of caution rather than preference, not a big dramatic version, you know, like, but just a real one, maybe an everyday one. And then see what might happen if you put a date on the calendar, maybe even this month for the smallest, unstep towards it. That's it, just the date. And hey, before you leave, do me a quick personal favor.

• 1:01:32Jonathan Fields?

  Share this conversation with just one person who you know has been sitting on something. It helps us get discovered and brings more people into the conversation. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Troy Young and Alejandro Ramirez. Chris Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already, please go ahead and follow us wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss a conversation. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.

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