Your Kid Needs Someone Who Isn’t You, with Chelsea Handler

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You know that feeling when your brain is at full capacity, right? I mean, you have a reminder from the dentist in your email, a birthday party invitation on the fridge, and your kid just texted you about a soccer game they forgot to mention until that moment, and you just cannot remember one more thing.

• 0:21Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's where Skylight Calendar comes in. It's an all-in-one digital smart calendar that syncs with Google, Apple, and Outlook to help your whole family see the days and weeks ahead. And I really love the Tasks feature, which is designed to help your kid build routines around things like homework and chores. And when your kid can do those things independently, it's a huge win for everyone in the family. Skylight Calendar is so much more than just a calendar. It's something you can add to your routine to help your family work together. And right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15-inch calendars by going to myskylight.com/becky.

• 1:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's M-Y-S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T.com/becky for $30 off your 15-inch calendar. Myskylight.com/becky. Chelsea Handler once said, "Kids, they're not that great." But I just had a conversation with her, and it seems like she feels like kids are pretty great. And Chelsea loves a lot of kids in her life, so much so that a bunch of kids call her Dad. We'll get to why later. She's taken parenting classes voluntarily to feel better about her interactions with kids who aren't hers. She's in it. And so I wanted to sit down with her

• 1:45Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  and figure out, what can she see about kids that maybe we can't? What happens when you have a little bit more of a bird's eye perspective, where you're in kids' lives, but you're also out of kids' lives? You know, so many areas of my life, I find it so helpful to consult with people who aren't in the day-to-day. Some of the best advice I get for people around work is an outside perspective. And then, of course, I have to filter it through, "Hold on, you don't know everything I know." But there are little nuggets I can take precisely because they're not so deep in it. This is the conversation I'm having with Chelsea. Now, I want to get ahead of something. You can take this in two ways.

• 2:29Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  The first, and I get, is, "Oh, this person doesn't have kids. They don't understand the day-to-day frustrations. I don't have that patience. I can't do that." I get that. You're right. And there's another way to take it in. Is there a nugget of truth that I want to use in the real life I'm living? Is there some part of this that I cannot do every day, but I can try for a few minutes? Sometimes having that outside-in perspective is actually really helpful to us, if we allow it to be. So that's how I'd ask you to listen. And warning upfront, this episode contains some salty language. It's Chelsea Handler. And my team just told me, "Becky, sometimes it was actually you, not her." So know that.

• 3:14Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  All right, let's do it.

• 3:18Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  All right, Chelsea, you don't have kids. You don't want kids.

• 3:23Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And you once took a parenting class. Tell me.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  Well, I have kids in my life, three girls in my life that are not related to me. I wouldn't say I'm a parent to them. They all call me Dad. So it's a joke, but it's also like I'm somewhere in between a big sister and a parent and kind of a guiding light, I would say.

• 3:49Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Now, there's so many things I want to click on there, but Dad, not Mom, not Aunt Chelsea, Auntie Chelsea. What is that?

• 3:55Speaker 01

  I don't think I've ever been an Auntie. I mean, I have a lot of nieces and nephews, 11. We just got two new additions. So, but I've never been Auntie or been Aunt. It's always Chelsea. And these girls were in my life because of exes that I had dated. I realized there was an empty spot in their lives, and that could be filled up easily. And so I took it upon myself to fill it up.

• 4:23Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Well, what was the empty spot that needed to be filled?

• 4:25Speaker 01

  I just felt like they were lacking a little bit of extra attention, love, support. And as a single woman who doesn't have that responsibility innately, or circumstantially, I'm not a mother, I actually have that bandwidth because I'm not distracted by my own set of circumstances. So I just noticed, I saw in them what I recognized in myself as a young adolescent teenager, which was like a little bit of neglect, which isn't the worst thing in the world. Because I think love kind of overpowers neglect in certain circumstances. It's certainly in mine. I always felt very loved growing up,

• 5:08Speaker 01

  but I was definitely neglected by my parents. So I just kind of wanted to fill in the gaps for them and be a more consistent force of nature so that they understood that people can be consistent with love and that people can be without judgment and that love is not conditional, and to kind of just lift them up a little bit. There were some, a little bit unhealthy dynamics going on, which most families suffer from in one way or another. And I recognized them right away, and I just wanted to help.

• 5:39Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And just, why Dad? Why Father?

• 5:42Speaker 01

  I just think I have a masculine energy, so they took it upon themselves because they did have a mother and they did have a father, but not both of those people were always present. And so I think I just, it was funny as a joke, Dad, and then it began, it just stuck.

• 6:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Masculine, like, "I'm pretty direct. I'm going to say it how it is. I'm not going to be..."

• 6:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, very direct, but also very loving. Like, I want them to know that they are capable of anything, that they are strong. I had a great influence in my life in the form of my third-grade teacher. Her name was Mrs. Scheckman. And she gave me a lot of confidence at a very young age. And I know how valuable that is from experience. And I wanted to impart that kind of influence and belief system in them. Like, I just wanted them to believe in themselves. And if they saw someone like me believe in them, then they could believe in them.

• 6:42Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I think a lot about how as a parent, but it's not just a parent, how a caring adult acts like a mirror to a child. We reflect a version back. And that's the version a kid takes in and forms their identity, which is one of the reasons when, I mean, of course, this is so easy, but let's say I have a kid who never wants to try out for anything. You never try out for anything. Come on, it's so pathetic. Why can't you be like your sister, who takes a risk? And all my kid takes in is, "My mom thinks I'm pathetic. So I guess I'm the pathetic kid who never tries out," even though I'm actually trying to inspire like the exact opposite behavior, right? And so I'm thinking about that, as you said that with your teacher. And also, it's just interesting, I had a second-grade teacher who I talked about once on a podcast. She literally, her daughter came out of the woodwork

• 7:26Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  and was like, "She's still alive." She was old when I had her, Ms. Edson, okay? And I still remember the specific things she said to the class. That same thing had such a powerful impact on confidence. Like, if something's too hard to do, it just means the first step isn't small enough. I'll never forget that. I'm like, "Oh, I just need to make the first step smaller." Like, I can do that. So what did your third-grade teacher impart to you that really stuck with you?

• 7:53Speaker 01

  She just kind of showed up in my life. Well, she didn't show up in my life. I went to school and she was my teacher. So, I mean, it kind of happened very organically. But she knew I was the youngest of six children. Our family had suffered, like, my brother had passed away unexpectedly. And she kind of just stepped in, understanding that I was being probably neglected and my emotions weren't being taken care of. So she doubled down on her love, kindness, and empathy towards me. And I never forgot it. And she really instilled in me that I was of value, that I was special. Because no one really, in a family that size, at the time that this happened, which was, you know, I don't know, the 80s at some point.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  We weren't going to therapy or dealing with it in a healthy way or anything like that. My family wasn't that, you know, up to speed. And so I think she recognized as being, from being a great teacher, that, you know, I needed a little extra gentle, loving care. And so these girls, I definitely recognized the dynamic in the family. There's, you know, and it was very, I don't want to use the word toxic because that's not really fair. It was just unhealthy. There was, and I just went in to make sure they knew that there was other experiences to have, that that shouldn't, even though that is their baseline, there's more in the world. And to show up when you see, A, they're all young girls. So that to me is, you know, an emergency.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  I don't want any young girls to turn into, you know, to women that don't trust other women or don't respect other women and that are scared of other women. You know, there was a lot of like turmoil going on in their schools and a lot of bullying happening, whether it was from them or to them. It was just kind of that vibe. And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. Like, let's nip this in the bud right away so that they understand that girls are there to be your friends. And, but the best way to gain trust is by being trustworthy.

• 9:51Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Hmm. You saw the good, the good kid underneath.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Who was having a hard time.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  And they're all great kids, like they are. And I knew it, like, they're not bad kids. And, you know, one of them specifically was constantly being told that she wasn't good enough, that she wasn't smart enough. And she was starting to believe it. And whether it was coming from the parental unit or if it was coming from school or from people, you know, around her in her life, it doesn't really matter. It just matters that there's an avenue that they can, where you can show up unconditionally. You're not judging them for any of their wrongdoing. Of course, kids are doing things that, you know, aren't great all the time. It's not like everybody's good all the time. But to show them that you love them even when they're bad

• 10:38Speaker 01

  or they've made a bad choice, that you're not going anywhere. And that when, I mean, I learned a lot in this parenting class that you mentioned. It was a therapist and we did a bunch of phone sessions, Zoom sessions. And she taught me so much. She's like, it's not about ever get, don't ever meet a kid at the anger they're at. You're the adult. Act like it. Even if they're upset, even if they're screaming, even if they're cursing, just look at them and go, that must be really, really tough. Everything you're dealing with, you're upset and I'm not going anywhere. I'm right here. And I was like, whoa. And I, like, in my-

• 11:17Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  What comes up for you now as you say that?

• 11:19Speaker 01

  It's just so beautiful to think about that in life with everyone, to just, no matter what you do, I'll be here when you come back, you know? And I'm gonna sit with you. You're not in trouble. I'm not gonna punish you. You know, I'm not gonna reward you, but I'm not gonna punish you. Like, my love is real, I'm here. So have your spin cycle and then I'll be here when you're done. And when you want to talk to me, I'm here again. And never to be punitive in that sense. And also, listen, I'm not a parent, you know? I'm like an adjunct. So it's a different set of rules for me.

• 11:52Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Because I'm the fun person to go hang out with and I take them on the vacations and I take them and I spoil them and I take them shopping. And they associate me with fun. But to add fun and reliability is a really good combo platter for any child that is struggling.

• 12:06Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  It really is. Place an order for that. Um, but I also think there's a really important lesson as an adjunct. These kids in your life, they don't evoke a story for you about I'm messing them up forever. Oh, my God, I caused this. I fucked that up. I'm a horrible parent. Their behavior doesn't lead to a story where then your reaction and behavior becomes more about managing your own story than them. Like, you're, it's-

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 12:33Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You're able to separate that.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 12:35Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah. What resonates with you about that? Speak to that.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  Well, A, it's just like, how can I, you know? In the beginning, I would be like, oh, these girls have, like, two of them in particular had kind of tough, tricky lives, you know? Tough things had happened. And I was like, okay, I'm just gonna spoil the hell out of them and make them feel great. And then kind of almost using like vacations or trips as leverage. Like, if you do this, if you get straight A's, I'll take you here, dah, dah, dah. And the therapist disabused me of that immediately. She's like, no, no, no, no, you should just do that. It's not contingent upon behavior. Like, don't make it a reward system. Just make it a consistency system. Like food, safety, security. Feed them, sit with them while they're eating. You know, if you can make the food even better, I can't.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  But sit with them while they're eating, even if you're not eating. Um, safety to make sure they know they're safe and they're in a safe spot. And security, like, I'm not going anywhere. And it's kind of like the marbles in the marble jar, right? If you put enough marbles in the jar, then if one gets taken out or if there's some sort of discord, it's not enough to take away all of the marbles you've put in. So that was like kind of the basis of the thinking is like, just keep putting into that cup, keep delivering to these girls so that they know they can depend on you and rely on you. And, and I'm very dependable and I'm very reliable because I grew up without that and it's very important to me.

• 14:05Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I'm just connecting this back to something you said about yourself. You said, I have a kind of a masculine energy. And I'm connecting that to something this therapist said to you, or you said to these girls, I'm not going anywhere. Which seems disconnected from a kid's like, I hate you, you're the worst. But it's so connected because one of the things I think that is hard for a lot of women to locate in themselves is that sturdiness. And it's hard for a lot of women to locate because we've been socialized out of it. We've been told to just like be who everyone wants us to be. Um, and one of the things our kids are testing when they're saying, I hate you or they're having this big reaction is like, is there a container for this? Can you be a container? Am I gonna blow you over? I'm overwhelming myself, but do I overwhelm you in the process?

• 14:50Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Because if I overwhelm you, maybe I am really toxic and kind of poisonous. But if I can do this, and again, you're not gonna throw me an ice cream party. You're not gonna give me a high five. Kind of like, still here, like, not too impressed. Um, there's something that, I don't know, feels so safety building and like inspires, like, okay, maybe I can deal with this if you can deal with this.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I think it's also just like handling situations because I'm not the parent.

• 15:22Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  I'm not upset about the little infractions.

• 15:26Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  I get it. All I care about is that they're not nasty to people ever, you know? Like, that's really the only thing that would really cause a rise out of me. Um, but even then, I would be more, I come at it now because of my sessions, my therapy parenting sessions, I come at it more of like a question. Like, why do you think that happened? And why do you think you reacted that way? Like, there was an instance once, we were away and I was giving one of the girls driving lessons. And she hadn't gotten her license yet. She had a permit, so she could drive with an adult, but she, and we pulled back into the house. We were renting to this little villa we were renting and we had a whole group of people.

• 16:08Speaker 01

  And we got in the car and I, everyone got out of the car. And I said to her, I said, you wanna go and we can just drive, just you and me? And we can, you know, practice your driving. And she said, yeah. So I got out of the back seat of the car where I was, left the car door open. She, I went around to her side. She got in the driver's seat and she reversed it. And my back door had still been open, but it was completely my fault, right? So this is a girl who has her permit. She's flipping out. She's crying, she's hysterical. She completely scratched this other car that's sitting, parked right next to ours. And I'm like, oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God, it's my fault, my fault. And she's, you know, I mean, it was out of control. And I was like, no, no, it's okay, honey, it's okay.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  The reaction she had was so emblematic and so indicative of what, what was really in her life.

• 16:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  And the punishment that was coming. And there was never gonna be any punishment coming from me. It's a car and it was a scratch and it wasn't a big deal. And I immediately went over to the other unit where we were renting this house, knocked on their door and told them exactly what happened. And, and it was fine. And like everything, you know, in front of her, I'm like, everything's okay. Nothing is wrong here. There's insurance, I have insurance, they have insurance, we're all set. You didn't do anything wrong. This is not your problem. And she just couldn't shake out of it for, you know, a couple of hours. The next day, I just could tell how much it meant to her that there was no punishment for something that wasn't her fault.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  And it made me realize how-

• 17:43Speaker 01

  Damaged her perception of like authority figures was. And, you know, many months later, we were in Whistler, Canada, and something similar happened. And her reaction was like, let me go tell this person exactly what happened. I go, good, go tell them. You know, like, we had bumped somebody's skis and they had fallen over and they got in scratch, but they were in the restaurant. And she's like, I'm just gonna go find them and tell them it's gonna be okay. And I was like, way to go. But it was so beautiful to see how quickly you can make a change in someone.

• 18:18Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  But also, the consistency is so important. You can't just show up and like shower everybody with gifts and vacations and lavish. You've gotta be there in and out, like, day in and day out.

• 18:32Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  And if they pull away, let them.

• 18:36Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  All right, I want to get to that, but I first want to take what you just said. Because I think this is such an example of, yes, how we can, we can shift things. Like, nothing's written in stone in kids, this fear of it being too late. Like, if someone's listening to this and thinks, you know what? I kind of do that with my kid. I go into fault mode instead of we're on the same team, how can we solve this problem mode, which is so much bigger than parenting. Like, you see this in adult life. People get obsessed with fault mode. Is this your fault? Is this my fault? Often, it's not useful. It's, hold on, we both probably want to figure something out that's better. What can we do? How can we solve this? Right? And that's such an amazing thing to just say to your kid if you hear this and say, listen to this podcast.

• 19:18Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Do you ever feel like sometimes when something goes wrong, I blame you? Or I blame someone? Oh, I want to do that differently. I think it's gonna be more helpful to say, you know what? Hold on. Bad things happen all the time in life. What can we do about it? I'm gonna try to say that next time. If I don't, call me out. Right? Like, we can get into this, oh, I messed my kid up and Chelsea's doing that better. And, okay. And we can make a little shift that makes that more possible.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. And that, to also remind people that the changing is always a possibility. Like, to echo what you're saying, it's so important to remember, like, nothing is set in stone. Like, there's a whole world out there. You have a million opportunities to change your pattern of behavior. And it's so much easier to change your pattern of behavior than people think. It doesn't take 10,000 hours, or 28 days, or whatever you think. You just have to start with a little baby step.

• 20:12Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yes.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  And, and all of a sudden, you see a different result and you're like, well, that worked. Let me try that again. Oh, this is a nicer way to be in the world. Oh, I'm not gonna blame other people for my problems. I'm actually going to consider why I got myself into this situation in the first place. So, all of those lessons are not only applicable to the children in my life, but they're applicable to me.

• 20:39Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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• 21:22Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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• 22:07Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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• 22:57Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  For any of us, if we imagine our own parent calling us today, whatever the situation was, like, hey, you know what? Do you ever feel like I don't really listen to you? I just give you advice right away? Does it ever feel like I'm distracted? Does it ever feel like I just always come to you with all the things you're doing wrong and never say that anything you're doing well? Whatever it is. If they said it one time. Of course, that doesn't take away 30, 40, 50, 60 years of pain, but I think we'd be lying if we, does it, yeah, like, that would, that would still feel really good today. And our kids are younger than we are. So, whatever pattern we've established is so many fewer decades than what we have. And it would still feel good if someone said that one time.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  It's like, you know, when a kid wants to play a game? I don't want to play your fucking game. I don't really want to do that. But of course, if a child needs me to play a game, I'm gonna play a game with them. But that time that you put in, like, my parents never wanted to play games. I mean, once in a while, when our family was together, we would play games and stuff. But I was the youngest of six, so I was always like playing with a tennis racket and a ball against a wall by myself. But, like, the effort, the time that you put in to play that game yields so much. Like, the effort that you put in by just sitting with them, like, I remember that, you know, some days, like, I don't want them on their phones, or I didn't want them on their phones when they were younger as much. I'd be like, please, just, you know? But then they would get, it was a way to communicate.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  They wouldn't want to show me these TikTok dances, or they would want to do a TikTok dance with me, which is ridiculous because I have absolutely no rhythm and I look terrible when I dance. And, um, and so, we would do stuff like that, or I would be like, just pay attention to what they're interested in, because there is a certain age where it's hard to get to kids, boys and girls, you know? It's different ages for both. But I have nephews and it's really hard to get in there, you know, emotionally and to connect. And so, you've got to figure out ways to compromise and be available to them and for their interests. It's not about what we want to do all the time. I mean, obviously, an adult is an adult and that's different and separate. But I also learned that, you know, if you want them to respect you, you have to treat them with respect.

• 25:05Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah. What do you know now that you needed that you didn't get?

• 25:08Speaker 01

  As a kid?

• 25:09Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  I think I just wanted more care given to my, like, my life, my schedule, my school. Like, my parents, I'd go to school and if I didn't come home, there was no issue. Like, I could leave for the weekend and stay at my friend's, Jody's, house for the whole entire weekend, because her house was organized, they had a housekeeper, things were clean, they had new furniture sets. I was like, this is a great house. And I would go there every weekend. And, I mean, sometimes I told my parents and sometimes I didn't, but I was like eight or nine years old. So, when I came home, they'd be like, oh, did you have a fun weekend? It's like, did you guys even know where I was?

• 25:48Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  So, that didn't feel good. But it also doesn't define my experience as a kid. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's a part, a fabric of my, my family, but my brothers and sisters all have that same experience, so we are able to laugh about it a lot, because it was so ridiculous compared to our neighbors and friends and people. I was like, wait, what? Like, I'd go over to our neighbor's house and play Atari till like midnight, and I was like 10 years old. I'd come home at midnight and like, everyone would be asleep. I'm like, I guess nobody's worried about where I am. So, that kind of stuff

• 26:24Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  was, didn't feel good. And then, conversely, there were so many beautiful memories, you know, like, of going down to the beach with my father, where it would just be the two of us. You know, when you're from a family of six, you don't spend a lot of one-on-one time with your parents.

• 26:37Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  No.

• 26:38Speaker 01

  It's always a group. You're always an army. And so, my mom was a big cuddler. She was always napping and reading books in bed. And you'd go up to bed and she'd give you an almond joy and you'd cuddle and we'd read together and like, you know, that was really sweet. And, and there were lovely memories. And I wasn't short on love, but it was short

• 26:58Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  on what we're talking about.

• 27:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  But you know, you also are someone with such a rich, defined, internal life. Like, you have so many ideas, you have thoughts, you have, and so, I imagine, that, that wasn't so attended to. And for you, you're, I feel like you're someone even as a young kid where that was like pretty developed inside of you, right? You weren't just wandering around the world. You had thoughts, you had ideas.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, my dad, when I was little, he's like, you, she, we need to get her started. She needs to start reading books, big books. Because he was like, she's gonna be trouble. You're gonna, like, he thought from, you know, because I was so loud, because I was so precocious, and I wasn't really scared of either one of them. My dad was a scary figure and he tried to be scary. But eventually, I was like, I'm calling your bluff. Like, I don't care anymore. But when I was like eight and nine years old, he made me read like Anna Karenina, like Tolstoy, I was reading. And then I'd have to give a book report in the kitchen, because he's like, this'll keep her out of trouble. Like, he didn't want me socializing all the time and reading books. And then they just gave, like, you know, I had to read East of Eden when I was nine years old to John Steinbeck. And I was like, this is a bunch of bullshit. And, but he was trying to like tame me.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  It also didn't work, because when he was telling me to do it, I was like, fuck you.

• 28:10Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna do it. And finally, I came home one day, I'm like, I'm done with all these books. The teachers think that I'm way too serious for a child my age. And I believe it's because of the books that you're making me read. And I'm like, so it's a wrap on that. I want to read Judy Blume, I want to read The Cat Ate My Jumpsuit, and I want to focus on being a child.

• 28:26Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You know, my youngest, I always say, he's 0% people-pleasing, zero.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Uh-huh.

• 28:32Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Um, and, you know, when I've tried the like, I'm gonna, like, things that I'm not proud, I'm gonna take away your stuffed animals, which is like so mean, because he's such an independent kid and he needs those to sleep. And I would never actually take them away, but I just said this in frustration. And he literally goes to his room and gets a backpack and puts all the stuffed animals in it. And it's just like, oh, here, there. You know, and I'm like, all right.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  You're like, whoopsie doodle.

• 28:53Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah, you win. You definitely win. But he's a kid, because I always say to him, your kid has such a busy brain. And he's such a busy brain. And he does really well.

• 29:05Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  With containment, like if he has a goal to focus on, um, he does really well with schedules. He like, he just has so much intense internal energy that being like an egg without a shell is like the worst thing for him. It's like brings out the worst. He can overpower a situation.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:23Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And he needs a lot of though, he needs a lot of emotional containment. He needs to know when he gets really big. If I'm setting a boundary, I'm like, you, you do this, whatever it is, like the decision's been made. So do this for 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes. I'm going to sit here, probably going to order fresh direct because this is just going to happen. And like, let me know when you, when you're done and like with love.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:46Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And he can smell even 1% of an adult's hesitation and even 1% forget it.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  Really?

• 29:54Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Game. Oh.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. That's tough.

• 29:57Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Because he's so, but I don't know why, imagine like they're, they're smart, those kids, like they get, they get it and they are strong. And I think strength needs strength, which also means love. Cause like you have a parent with a kid like that, who just, like you said, meeting their anger with your anger, yelling random threats. That's not authority.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  Or a parent that presents as needy, like that, that is so like hard to watch when parents are needy from their children. It's like, let them be, let them be who they are.

• 30:29Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And what does that look like? Given like, what do you mean?

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Well, there's two things. There's needy and controlling, right? So controlling is trying to control a kid's behavior and negotiating. No negotiating. Like you either, there's a boundary. If you break it, then we're not doing that. And also needing you to spend time, if the kid doesn't want to spend time with you, don't make them spend time with you. And again, I'm not a parent, so I don't have children, but my experience with these girls is they always want to spend time with me because I'm not demanding of their time. So they're always like, let's go, let's go with Chelsea. And you know, their parents will be like, well, Chelsea's the fun one. Chelsea does this, Chelsea does that. But

• 31:14Speaker 01

  I'm there in the quiet as well. Like we will get into bed on a Saturday and watch four movies in a row and never leave and order to take out food and eat in bed and have all the dogs and never leave. And they call it a rot day. I don't choose to look at it that way. I choose to look at that as a day of rejuvenation.

• 31:33Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Stillness, stillness day.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Regeneration and rejuvenation. But like those things, like it doesn't always have to be loud and fancy. You just have to be present. And if sometimes it's just being in the same house, sometimes it's just going for a walk and stop forcing conversations with children who don't want to talk. They will talk as soon as you stop asking them so many fucking questions.

• 31:58Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Well, I, you know, I now have a teenager, right? And one of the things I try to focus on is just being there. But and it's just is a bad word because it makes it sound like it's easy. Like, all right, I know when he comes home from sports, I'm just going to happen to be in the kitchen without my phone. Um, I'm not going to say anything. I'm going to be there.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:19Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And it feels useless because then maybe my son walks in and grabs something from the fridge. He's like, hey, I'm going to go shower. Okay.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  But you're like waiting, like you're on a first date. You're like, when's it?

• 32:28Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  A hundred percent. So maybe he's going to say something to me. I think especially as kids get older, they kind of track your availability. They'd, and the, all the moments that seem like they don't count, like they start to fill.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  That's the marble jaw.

• 32:40Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  There's not immediate gratification. Like I tell parents of teens, parenting is not M and M's. Okay. If you want immediate gratification, have some M and M's. But parenting and parenting a teen, it's like so many moments, like did that matter? Did that matter? And then, and it's going to be inconvenient. They come to you at 11:30 on a Tuesday, when you have a meeting at, you know, you have to leave at 6:00 AM for, but they come at 11:30 and they're like, can I talk to you about something? And they would have never come if they didn't have eight moments where you happened to be in the kitchen saying nothing.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:07Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  At 6:00 PM.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  Right. No, I love that. I love that. And also another issue, trust, trusting them. Like I know kids who are not trusted by their parents and I know kids who are trusted by their parents and the kids that are not trusted by their parents. Again, in my experience, the more you show them that they're trustworthy, the more trustworthy they become.

• 33:31Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  So play that out for me with an example. I love it. Just play it out.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  So like my friend had, um, this son and he was always kind of, she was very overprotective. What's he doing? Where's he going? He's coming skiing. I have a ski house in Whistler. My friend's son was always coming and like stopping down at my house to get himself ready for, they would drive from like 45 minutes away. He'd come to get ready at my house. I'd have the skis at my house, blah, blah, blah. I'm very good friends with his mom. And he'd be like, well, you know, and then he'd go out with his friends. And I was kind of supervising it in the beginning. And then finally I was like, he's trustworthy. Like you can go back to the house with your friends when I'm not there. You're 16 years old. You know, you're responsible. And I just started letting him do that. And by virtue of doing that, he

• 34:19Speaker 01

  became more and more responsible. I mean, there was a time where this is a 16 year old kid and I have a lot of drugs in my house. You know what I mean? Not as a parent, but like I have to put things away when kids are coming over.

• 34:32Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Hear that.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Smoke weed. I like mushrooms, all those things. And I, and I put everything in a safe whenever, and I, he had found an edible and he had found about $200 in cash. And when I came home that night, he had left a note, leaving the edible and the $200 of cash and said, Hey, you had left this out and I'm sure you don't want this to be out around all the kids. Cause for, there are a lot of children that come through my house in Whistler. And he's absolutely right. I don't want drugs out.

• 35:03Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I think about this idea of like good inside. Like what does that really mean to think about your kid as good inside? And it doesn't mean they're allowed to act the way they want to act and doesn't mean, oh, that's an expression of anger. Go yell at that person. I'm so, no, obviously not. That would be insane. But it means starting with the assumption that there's like good stuff in your kid. There's generosity in your kid. There's responsibility in your kid. There's lots of things in the world that get in the way of accessing that. By the way, for me too, as a fairly formed adult. But if I come out of a situation thinking that's true, the nature of my interaction will be completely different than if I think somebody's, that's not in there. I have to put it in there. I have to like, you know, punish it in there, which has never worked in human history.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  It doesn't work. It doesn't, it's like hitting your kid.

• 35:49Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Like, I think we have to see the good stuff in our kid before they can access it.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Sometimes you have to trick them.

• 35:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You do.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  And tell them how wonderful they are before they're wonderful.

• 35:59Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You do. And from trust, you can say to, especially an older kid, hey, I trust you. You're a good kid. You know how to make good decisions. Now look, you're going to be at the house with a lot of your other friends. And look, there probably going to be some tricky situations where even a good trustworthy kid is going to be pulled to making some hard decisions. What may some of those moments be? Now I'm actually like on my team, helping my kid act in that trustworthy way versus I know for me too, it's easier to say is look, here's a list of things that if these things happen, you are never going out of the house for two years. You know, I don't mean that, but it feels powerful to say. And all of a sudden my kid's less equipped and they kind of get the message that they're not a trustworthy person. Talk to me about boundaries, about your history with boundaries.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  I'm terrible with boundaries. I really am.

• 36:46Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  My favorite topic. I want to hear. You don't seem like you're terrible with boundaries.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  Well, there were no boundaries in my house growing up. So I grew up without any boundaries and I'm still have a hard time creating boundaries. Obviously I'm 51 now, so I'm better because I've been to therapy and I've done work enough to know that it's, it's, it's a healthy exchange to have boundaries. Um, where the kids are concerned, my boundaries are just basically like, A, if you're in a bad mood, don't bring it out. Stay in. If we're on vacation and we're going to dinner and you're not going to be able to socialize, we have a social contract. There's a bunch of people here. I need you to be engaging. If you don't know how to do that, that's okay, but don't come to dinner. We'll get you dinner, but don't come to the table unless you're going to be convivial and have a conversation. The phones

• 37:32Speaker 01

  are, no, no, I'm not interested in that. If it's at a meal, at a meal.

• 37:39Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Or, but you know, anything else, it's like they can decide what is healthy for them and what isn't. For me, one of the biggest gifts that my father gave me, as I mentioned, was a love of reading, even though I didn't love it at the moment. And so I love to instill that to any young people that I can. It's just like the way that escapism is so much more meaningful than the escapism of your phone.

• 38:04Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yep.

• 38:05Speaker 01

  And the depth and breadth of knowledge that will add to your whole life. If you just are able to sit down, focus and read books. So that is something I'm pretty like strong on. Like you've got to, I want to know what books you've read and I'm always sending them books.

• 38:24Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  And it doesn't have to, it doesn't matter what you're reading. I don't care, but read.

• 38:28Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 38:28Speaker 01

  You know, just put your phone down and read a book and escape to some other reality that is not your own.

• 38:33Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 38:34Speaker 01

  Um, and also just to be kind, like to.

• 38:39Speaker 01

  Girls, especially, like girl on girl crime, I just can't take it.

• 38:44Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Tell me about boundary struggles in just your adult life. What's the situation?

• 38:48Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't have boundaries with anyone. And I mean, I could, I'm not a victim. I do not want to present as one, but a lot of people take advantage of my generosity. And I don't see it until many times it's too late. People will warn me and be like, that person shouldn't be in your circle, or this person shouldn't, don't trust this. And it doesn't matter how many times it happens. I just never want to change the spirit of who I am, because I am generous and I want people to, and I want to help people and I want to lift them up. And yeah, there have been many times where I'm like, oh, wow, I should have listened to everybody. So boundaries in that sense, like I let things, you know, I don't have good boundaries.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  I just let people in a lot. And it doesn't break me when they break the boundary. It's just like, oh, I don't think I'm going to learn this lesson in this lifetime, because I don't want to change the way that I am. You know, I don't like that idea. I want to be, still believe.

• 39:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Does it feel, I'm just curious, just truly, does it feel like setting a boundary and like leading with kindness and generosity are like mutually exclusive?

• 40:05Speaker 01

  No, I just think I'm so wild that I want everything to be wild and hope that it all shakes out.

• 40:12Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  Like, yeah, you can sleep in my bed, you can sleep in my house, you can sleep in my room, you can move in for six months, you can, go use my, this, you take my car for a week, I won't be here, take this, take that, like, I like that part of me. So I'm not going to get it twisted with people treating that or abusing it. I'm just kind of like, I have more to give, so it doesn't matter. But many people in my life and inner circle will tell you that I need to pat them down the hatches.

• 40:47Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I love that. This is something that is true and I'm not sure I want to change it or work on it.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, I don't want to become somebody who's always looking at everybody, wondering what their motives are. And also, I have extra. So take it.

• 41:01Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You know, I'm thinking about the parents listening, and I think it's interesting, we can hear this conversation in two ways, where one is, yeah, like, okay, well, I have to wake up my kids at 2:00 and 4:00 in the morning, so I don't have the energy for any of this.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 41:14Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  But a different way is, I always, I always like, this may sound weird, taking life advice from people who I'm like, that's not really relatable. But is there like a nugget of that I can put in to like five minutes of my life? You're right, that's not my life. But it makes me think about how helpful it is, everything you've said. For five minutes, can I not ask my kids questions, right? For five minutes, can I play the game, even though I don't want to play it, just because that seems to be important in their world? Can I just pick random five minutes, it's going to be 5:55 to 6:00 PM today, where I say, just for those five minutes, I'm going to be kind of unimpressed with my kids yelling at me, and I'm just going to kind of say, oh, you seem to be upset.

• 41:58Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I'm here, let's figure it out together when you take a breath. And after 6:00 PM, I'm like, you know, and I'm just going to go back to kind of yelling at them, full permission. But can I take these things for five minutes? And I feel like that's really, really powerful to hear everything you said today.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  I like that a lot, because sometimes it just is five minutes, you know what I mean? And sometimes five minutes can make a difference.

• 42:18Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yes.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  I mean, think about your day, you know, like, if you have to think about the five best minutes of your day, think that might be them.

• 42:24Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  But I also think with kids, it's so important to do the things that you're not in the mood to do. It's not only good for them, it's good for you. You know, for me, as a single woman who doesn't have, you know, a husband or children, it's a good lesson for me to put myself in that position and that situation.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  And, and also to remind them of the things where they excel and that they're good at.

• 42:54Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  Is really important to always bring up, like, overdo that. Like, oh, you're so good with animals, or you're so good with children, or you're so good at, you know, making bracelets, or whatever their skill set is, is to constantly be feeding that, because there is not a kid in the world that doesn't want to hear good things about themselves.

• 43:12Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah. All right, Chelsea, ready for some quick takes?

• 43:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:15Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Okay, rank these best to worst. The DMV, a middle seat on a red eye, a random six-year-old's birthday party.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Oh, God, well, DMV is last. I don't mind that.

• 43:28Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's the best.

• 43:29Speaker 01

  That's the best.

• 43:30Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Okay.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  Middle seat on the airplane is the worst for a red eye. And then a six-year-old's birthday, I would say, is the middle.

• 43:38Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Got it.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  Definitely, I'm not interested in going to any children's parties.

• 43:42Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Not, not the random six-year-old, no.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Not even the ones I love.

• 43:45Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  No. What's the best way you've spoiled one of your nieces or nephews or a kid in your life?

• 43:52Speaker 01

  I mean, I've spoiled them a lot with trips, mostly Hawaii. Hawaii or Mallorca, or, I don't know, I'd love to spoil them.

• 44:03Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  But you choose experience over thing?

• 44:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, always, always.

• 44:07Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  What's the most ridiculous thing you remember fighting about with your siblings?

• 44:11Speaker 01

  My sister, we had tape in our room, we shared a room for my closest sister in age, Shoshana, we would put Scotch tape down the middle of our room. But she taped my side that wasn't, didn't have access to the door, so I would have to ask her permission to leave the room.

• 44:27Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  What is a rule you see in family homes with kids that you would just flat out abolish forever?

• 44:34Speaker 01

  Making your kids get up and say hello to the strangers that come in, to visitors. I understand that you're trying to instill manners in them, but you miss the boat. Because if they're not doing that on their own accord, then you didn't teach them in the first place. So demanding that they do it is kind of an ick.

• 44:57Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Like demanding manners in general?

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Like, get up and go say hi to Chelsea, Chelsea's here, go say hi to Chelsea. And it's like some 12-year-old boy, I don't need him to say hi to me, he doesn't want to say hi to me, he doesn't know that he should say hi to me, so let's just skip it. And, you know, like, I don't, that is kind of, especially performative.

• 45:14Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  Just let them, like, deal with it when someone's not there, the guest isn't there. Don't say, go and say hello to Chelsea. It's...

• 45:22Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Did you say thank you to Chelsea?

• 45:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, like, that, that should be private, I feel.

• 45:27Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And I think, just to take that a step further, just for a parent who wants to use it, like, if that bothers you, because you're like, you know, it's not really the performative nature, I just want my kid to be someone who notices his environment. A great thing to say after is, hey, I noticed when Chelsea came, you didn't say hi. Hold on, you're not in trouble.

• 45:44Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I know you know saying hi to people is important, especially my good friend who's visiting, so just, what's going on for you? Is there something that makes that hard? Does it feel intimidating? Let's just figure that out together. And now I can actually problem solve, instead of kind of, again, being in like fault mode.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:58Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah. Finish the sentence. Every kid should grow up knowing...

• 46:02Speaker 01

  They are loved.

• 46:09Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I'm going to end today by telling you what I am inspired to do with my own kids today, following the conversation with Chelsea. I am just going to make a point to tell each of them something I really admire about them, something I really love about them. I'm going to tell one of my kids that I love how he always knows what he wants and he stands up for himself. I'm going to tell another kid that, oh my goodness, you're so good at noticing the environment and being really helpful. I'm going to tell another kid, you know, do you really have a sense for details and visual of things and design in a way that's really, really helped our whole family? Just three specific small things.

• 46:50Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Now, let me just be clear, I don't expect any of my kids to say, oh my goodness, I really build my self-confidence, thank you, mom. I don't think that's going to happen. Sometimes when we say these things, our kids, oddly enough, roll their eyes, like, what? You're trying to get something from me? Just let them have their reaction and know that it really mattered. So if that inspires you to do the same, say something, make it small, don't expect a big celebration, and remind yourself that it mattered. Chelsea Hamler is on tour through the end of the year, and she's launching a whole podcast network with Dear Chelsea at the center. More information in show notes. All right, let's put our feet on the ground.

• 47:31Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Place a hand on your heart and let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside,

• 47:38Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  we remain good inside.

• 47:41Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I'll see you next week.

• 47:50Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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• 48:34Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  care.com can help you find nannies, sitters, and daycares. And you can find the expertise that matters to you. Think homework help, CPR training, or experience with multiple kids. And if you're considering daycare, you can search, compare, and request tours, and could even get a discount on daycare tuition as a care.com member. If you need more support, care.com can help. For a limited time, you can use the code BECKY35 to save 35% on a care.com membership. When it's not you, it's care.com. After my first baby was born, I treated my own recovery like a complete afterthought. If the baby needed something, I showed up immediately. If I needed something, well, it would wait.

• 49:17Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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