Vulnerability, Courage & Fatherhood

Dr. Becky talks with Joe Gonzales, founder of Brooklyn Stroll Club, about how searching for connection with other dads sparked an NYC movement. He shares how fatherhood is “re-raising parts of yourself,” why vulnerability is contagious, and what it means to play the long game in modern parenting.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  After my first baby was born, I treated my own recovery like a complete afterthought. If the baby needed something, I showed up immediately. If I needed something, well, it would wait. But research shows that when parents have the support they need, they're better able to care for their children. Taking care of yourself isn't separate from parenting. It's a huge part of parenting. That's why I love Frida's mission to prepare women for the realities of pregnancy, postpartum, recovery, and feeding. Frida creates solutions for the moments that often catch moms off guard. The Postpartum Essentials Kit and Breastfeeding Survival Kit help women feel more prepared for those early weeks of motherhood. Be motherhood prepared and shop Frida at Amazon, Target, and Walmart today.

• 0:43Speaker 00

  Parenting can be one of the most rewarding journeys of our lifetime, but at the same time, without a doubt, it is one of the most difficult. And one of the reasons it's often most difficult is that it can be so lonely and isolating. Today, I'm having an amazing conversation with someone who has changed what it means to be a modern dad. Joe Gonzalez is a New York-based father, media professional, and the founder of Brooklyn Stroll Club, built on the idea that dads also need belonging and community. Every parent needs a group to turn to for those moments when you're panicking, or need support, or can't put words to something that you're going to that's real but feels so confusing. And what he

• 1:25Speaker 00

  has done through Brooklyn Stroll Club is nothing less than remarkable. Joe and I unpack what it really means to be a father, what he hopes his kid says about him and the type of father he is, surprising things he's learned along the way, and really, the power of not feeling alone. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this.

• 1:50Speaker 00

  Hi, Joe.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 1:52Speaker 00

  So happy to have you here.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  I'm so excited to be here. Thank you.

• 1:55Speaker 00

  So let's just jump right in. So why don't we start? Just tell me a little bit about how You kind of came to this world of fatherhood. What you noticed in terms of maybe what's absent from it, what it was really like and you didn't expect, and then what you did about it, because it's pretty remarkable.

• 2:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I became a dad almost about two years ago now. When I found out me and my wife were having a kid, I just, it completely changed me. I was like, what am I gonna do? We don't have family here. So I think for us, it was like, what are we going to do about that? How are we gonna create a village for us? And I had been documenting it online and TikTok and just really kind of documenting how I was experiencing what she was going through as well and just kind of being open and vulnerable about that. Then when my son came, I'm like, okay, this is a lot to experience. You know, she's going through healing. She's going through so many different things as well. And so for me, I was like, how do I get community around? I need people who understand this.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Like, this is something I've never experienced before. A lot of my friends maybe didn't have kids, aren't married. You know, so I'm like, put a call online. I'm like, hey, where do the dads hang out? Like, I'm just like, I'm in Brooklyn. There's gotta be dads around here somewhere. And kind of the consensus was, we don't know, you do it. And/or there was like a Facebook group or something that didn't really feel inviting. So for me, I pretty much made a call out to, hey, do you guys want to meet up on a random Saturday? And come to find out, like dads really were open to that as well. So like 20 dads came through. My son was about four months old. And from there, we've just started building this community called Brooklyn Stroll Club. And I really didn't expect it to grow how it has.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  But I think for me, what I found is just like, community not only is needed for me, but for others as well.

• 3:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. And just your one, two-line description of what Brooklyn Stroll Club is, or maybe what it is underneath, what people might see. Tell me a little bit about that.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  So I would say Brooklyn Stroll Club, it always changes, as far as I'm changing as well. But for right now, I would say Brooklyn Stroll Club is a community for dads to feel seen and supported while giving a new voice to modern fatherhood.

• 4:13Speaker 00

  Okay, there's so many things I want to unpack from what you said. Because you went online and kind of said like, where the dads at? Like, where do the dads go? And it seems like, is this right? You got interest, but no answer? Like, everyone's like, there's no, I don't have an answer, but I'm also kind of asking that question? Is that what happened?

• 4:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was kind of like, oh, well, I don't know. And there was a lot of moms that were just like, oh, I mean, maybe my husband has done this. Or, you know, we have this Facebook group. It wasn't, it didn't really point me anywhere that felt like where I belong. You know what I'm saying?

• 4:45Speaker 00

  Do you think dads, or let's even say dads-to-be? Because it sounds like you were thinking about this during the pregnancy. Are also aware, like, I have this need for community? Has community always been a big thing for you before fatherhood? And then the absence of it around this new identity was obvious to you?

• 5:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I saw originally, kind of my background is I come from the church. So, the premise of a lot of that is community groups. And some of those fall short sometimes, you know, when it comes to faith. You can kind of go back and forth. Like, I'm involved, I'm not, I'm kind of contemplating where I'm at in life. But fatherhood, I'm here forever. So, I think what I kind of got inspired was like, hey, I really want to create a group where I can evolve and grow in. And that doesn't kind of fall apart, you know what I mean? Or I don't have to go back and forth and contemplate this. Like, I'm in, I'm in fatherhood forever, regardless. So, having a community that empowers that was important to me.

• 5:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. And look, I think moms and dads are woefully under-supported in general. I know you and I have talked about that. But, but there probably is a lot more for community for new moms. Are you in a new moms group? And are you in this group when you're pregnant? And do you have your text thread? And have you found that that is something that moms have a little bit more built into their life? Or more optionality than dads have traditionally had?

• 6:06Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I think moms really are great at community, great at building community, great at understanding what their needs are, what they're expecting, what they want in friendships. I think women are way better at just building strong connections with women. And I think that's the kind of thing that we've wrestled with or struggled with as men. There's some stats by my friends, like Mundo, really. They have a stat that's like 58, 55% of men between 25 to 40 have not one person that they feel close to. So I think that

• 6:39Speaker 00

  Wait, say that again.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  So fifty, fifty percent of men between the ages of twenty five to forty five don't have one person they feel close to, which is interesting because if you don't have somebody, one as a friend to you just by yourself, how can that affect you when you become a father and you're actually somebody's closest friend, you know, or as a partner to your, to your, to your partner, you know, how, how can that affect you and how can that affect the way that you operate in the world? And that's just something I think we've answered or tried to figure out as we create the community.

• 7:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, a principle I think about a lot and it's just feeling loud in my brain right now is we can't change the hard, we can change the alone.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 7:23Speaker 00

  And the transition to parenthood is really hard.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:27Speaker 00

  And I think sometimes we focus on trying to change the hard, it's not that hard, or here's how to make it easier, but if you think about not changing the hard, if the hard just is the hard because life has hard things and instead you focus on, wait, maybe the problem isn't the hard, it's just hard plus alone. And what if I actually focus on the alone piece? It's actually, not to say it's so easy to change, but I actually think that part is, we have a little bit more agency.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:54Speaker 00

  In changing that, and that's exactly what you created and transitioning to becoming a father, what if I just didn't feel alone every Saturday? What if I put my baby in a stroller, walked around with other dads? I don't know if it's probably not structured conversations, who knows what we talk about, but I'm literally no longer alone in this brand new identity I'm taking on.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, having a place where you can, our online community is where you can actually just talk to daily and then having a meetup monthly, like, yeah, that's not going to cure everything, that's not going to cure your loneliness, but that's, creates the conversation and starts a movement. So for me, I'm hitting dads on a Saturday morning, like, hey, it's, I've been up since five, I need to hang out, I need to get outside with somebody who else, who else is like feeling the same, who is up, who is tired too. Um, to me, it feels like I'm not doing it alone. Of course, I have my partner, which is always the support for me, but being able to have another dad to experience, hey, your kid's going through This, my kids going through this, I feel a little bit more less alone in that element.

• 8:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, look, I don't want to be shy about naming this, the transition to having a baby can be tricky sometimes in a partnership. And sometimes you have a little tiff or something's going on, you're feeling distant. And actually, having someone to talk to about it helps you vet, helps you feel understood, maybe helps you develop a new perspective to be more productive with your partner. Our partner can't be the only person we're talking to when we're having a hard time with our partner. Right? It's too circular.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  No, absolutely. There's dads in the community that I look up to how they handle things. Or I'm like, hey, I actually wouldn't handle it that way. And it helps me kind of regulate what I'm doing and how I'm expressing myself, not only to my partner, but also to my child. So it's like, hey, I love the way that you're talking to your wife, or how y'all experienced this together and y'all went through it together. Or, you know what, it's a hundred, there's, we have meetups with a hundred dads. Not everybody handles things well, but being able to regulate those and understand where I want to take things, where I want to kind of leave things from other people and other experiences is helpful.

• 9:53Speaker 00

  You know, I'm curious what you think about this. I'm not even sure of my own answer, but I'm just going to put it out there. Do you think most dads or most men, when it comes to something that's hard, have they been socialized to think, I just have to make this better or pretend this isn't happening, rather than maybe I could talk to someone about this or experience this with someone?

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would say so. I think dads, I think the male maybe stereotype is just internalize a lot of those things. Find the solution on your own. And I think like that's been seen in society and been seen in how men kind of operate, maybe on isolation in politics, in general, in government and things like that, like when men get power and have those things that maybe aren't addressed. Those, I think those kind of play out a little bit differently. But your family needs you in those elements. And so to be able to like process those things, I think is really important.

• 10:52Speaker 00

  Yeah. What was it like when you became a dad? Like, what images come to mind or feelings or thoughts?

• 10:59Speaker 01

  I think completely changed me. I think when I first saw my son, I had this immense responsibility that made me feel like I'm the sole responsibility. Of course, my wife was there. She had this tough process of giving birth. But, you know, even in that moment of seeing him, it's like she's healing. She's trying to figure out, get better. And I'm like, OK, what am I doing now? And I think that responsibility of can I provide? Can I be there for him and unlearn all the patterns that maybe I learned in the past? Like, what can I do for him that's better? And I think a lot of not only what can I do for him, but also what can I do for myself? And how can I change the dynamic of maybe what he's seen and what he's going to experience kind of fell on me as well.

• 11:44Speaker 00

  Yeah. You know, I read something you had sent in another interview. It makes me think about what we're talking about here, that so much about fatherhood isn't just about raising your kid. It's about re-raising parts of yourself.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. I've been in a place where I, everything means more. How I respond to him, how I respond to my wife, it matters. And I think I've really been trying to take those moments one at a time and not just like think about, hey, these are things that I need to address overall. Of course, I need to work on this and this. But being able to respond to my son out of love, out of care, patience, like there's elements maybe that my dad maybe fell short in that I want to give to him in a way that kind of heals not only him, but myself. You know, and I think that seeing him and how I've handled situations sometimes is a healing journey for me as well.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  Being able to, him to have a tantrum or him to lose his cool and me to respond just out of love or really out of patience, I kind of make myself proud in those elements, in those times, you know?

• 12:52Speaker 00

  I mean, I think you're getting to the heart of what parenting secretly is all about. Right? I think so many times like we think having our kids are going to heal us or our kids will naturally heal us. But our our kids trigger old stuff in us.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 13:07Speaker 00

  Kind of the opposite. You're like, oh, I guess I didn't resolve that thing. And I think we can either look at that as, oh, something's wrong with me or I'm destined to repeat the past. Or through this interaction with my kid, they're kind of like showing me a mirror or shining light of something that if I can work through this, it's going to benefit them. But it's going to be maybe huge for me, even in my non-parenting.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:29Speaker 00

  Areas of life. And it sounds like that's.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, especially him being so pure and just a raw emotion of what a human is. Like, he's just experiencing things for the first time. So being able to see that in a way that's like, hey, he doesn't know how he's responding to me. He doesn't know how he's acting in some areas. I do. I'm 30. I'm 33. Like, I understand my responses. And so it definitely has more of a responsibility to say, how can I respond better? He's it's his first time. It's not my first time. And not that I have, I definitely have grace in how I respond and how I react. But can I be better the next time that he responds this way?

• 14:12Speaker 01

  And can I respond better to my partner the next time as well, you know?

• 14:16Speaker 00

  Tell me a little bit about about your dad. Like, what do you remember?

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. My dad, he he worked hard. He was a hard worker. I never, that's one thing I learned about from my dad that I'm really proud of is that he he could provide. He could make a way with whatever, whatever he had, whatever resources he could make. I think what I saw and why the community is so important to me is my dad was really isolated. I think he didn't have friendships. And honestly, I don't think he had the time to have friends. And and I think that kind of put him in some isolation moments. And I saw that in patterns, maybe that he reacted or maybe that he expressed himself in different areas. And so I think for me, it was just important to like, figure out, how do I get around people?

• 15:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Take the good parts of my dad, take the good parts of what he's been about and be able to. Channel it to something better.

• 15:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  You know, and that's what he would want. That's what our parents have done for us. You know, they, for me, my dad wanted me to be in a better school, wanted me to be in a better life. He was one of seven. So, you know, he had a lot going on and a lot of experiences with his siblings, with his family. So, of course, like, it was just a different upbringing in a different time. But he worked so hard so that we do this. And so, I'm grateful for those moments, but I'm also challenged in how I can operate and how I can be a father.

• 15:38Speaker 00

  And what you're naming is something that I think is the key to showing up in a way that feels good as a parent, is none of this is about blaming our parents. We can say, "My parent was doing the best they could with the resources they had."

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:53Speaker 00

  "And there are things I want to do differently."

• 15:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:57Speaker 00

  And it doesn't have to be my fault, my dad's fault. Like, I always find fault to generally be an unhelpful framework. We're just like pointing fingers at someone, which generally isn't a way we learn.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I've had to go through that. It's a constant mourning sometimes of maybe what I didn't experience or what I wish I would have had.

• 16:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  When I see it in my son or when I can give it to my son, that's the healing element for me, where I have blamed my dad or I have blamed my parents and, "Oh, I didn't get to experience this." Or even now, like, being grandparents and things like that, maybe what my son is maybe missing out on or not experiencing. There's, it always evolves.

• 16:31Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  Like, how I was treated, how I wasn't, how maybe my son's going to develop, and that always wrestles with me internally. But I can only control how my wife and I manage and how we experience and get, create those experiences for our son.

• 16:46Speaker 00

  I wonder if you could talk about a specific moment with your son that makes you kind of know in that moment, like, I'm giving him something that I probably could have used, but didn't get. Can you, can you share a specific moment?

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think yesterday, actually. He was just at a place. I mean, I don't know if it's, he's getting teeth, he's getting his molars. I don't know what it is. It could be, you know, a plethora of things that he's dealing with. I think this moment yesterday, he was going back and forth. He just wouldn't go in his, wouldn't go in his stroller. Just was like, we were trying to go to the park. I'm like, "Hey, I'm making a decision for you. Like, we're going to the park and we're trying to do something. You're not happy." I think overall, in that moment, I was very frustrated. Like, just like, kind of not my full self. But I think I was really proud of how my wife and I handled that, where we didn't like... We didn't like react, we didn't do any, like, we didn't take it out of control.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  We just really took him to the park and found a solution rather than just like, "Hey, we need to get out of the house right now because this isn't probably the best place for you. Let's go somewhere else. Let's make an active decision to do something." And I think I was proud of myself rather than just being like, "Hey, you know, just stop crying," or, "Hey, you know, let's, you know, you're okay, you're okay." Like telling him, you know, being able to validate his feelings, but also being able to find a solution for him without, without compromising how he's feeling.

• 18:13Speaker 00

  Yes. And so what can feel natural in those moments? Let's just act it out. It's some version of, maybe I'll act one out. You could act another one out. It's like, "Stop crying. You're being ridiculous. We're just going to the, we're going to the park. It's not such a big deal."

• 18:24Speaker 01

  No, absolutely.

• 18:25Speaker 00

  Something like that. Or what's another kind of, you feel like just easy, quick, vomit your own frustration response?

• 18:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're, you're good. You're, you're, you're okay. You're, you're okay. You don't need it. You're, you're okay. We're gonna go get this. Like, you're, you're okay. I think unvalidating how he's, like, he doesn't know that he's upset. Like, I think one of those things, like, he doesn't know he's frustrated. He, he doesn't, he's just experiencing what he feels in the moment. Like, telling a, a one-year-old, "They're okay," is like never helping the solution, you know?

• 18:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  So that's an experience for sure.

• 18:55Speaker 00

  And so you're saying in that moment, showing up, and I think this is a duality, that sometimes we don't even realize both are possible. Because I talk to this, you know, about this with parents all the time, where it's like, "Okay, so let's say your kid's having trouble getting in the stroller." You say, "There's something about getting in the stroller that doesn't feel good right now." Or, "Oh, this is a hard moment. Keep it simple." And then parents will say to me, "Oh, so then you're just not taking them to the park?" I'm like, "Whoa."

• 19:21Speaker 01

  No, yeah, no.

• 19:22Speaker 00

  "I am taking them to the park." And the idea that you can validate and see your kid's current emotions as real.

• 19:31Speaker 00

  And you can still put them in a stroller when they're crying.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:35Speaker 00

  You can still get out of the house, or I can still say to my kid, "Oh, I know you don't want to go to bed right now," while carrying them to their bedroom.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  And that's also wild.

• 19:46Speaker 00

  It's mind blowing.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  It's also wild. They're locking their legs, not going in the stroller. They kicked something over. You're like trying to get a snack. You're trying to get the bag on. It's like so many other elements too that happen where you're like, those are the moments that I'm proud of when there's so many external. My dog, the dog is kind of going back and forth. Uh, maybe somebody rang the doorbell. We're just like, it all sometimes feels like 15 random things happening at one time, but being able to regulate, "Hey, my goal is to take you to the park. We're gonna be here. It's gonna be okay. You're gonna be, you're gonna be fine." Not actually, but just knowing internally, like that's gonna, we're gonna be good. Like, I think we're gonna be good if we get here. And then it's good.

• 20:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Sometimes it's not. He's still, you know, fussy when we go back and forth, but at least we made a decision and didn't just react out of emotion.

• 20:35Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I don't know about you, but by the time September rolls around, I am ready for cozy season. That's when I start thinking about Thanksgiving plans and travel that allows me to spend quality time with my family. I'm thinking board games, changing leaves, maybe even a living room with a fireplace where we can read our books together. Maybe you're the kind of family that loves an adventure and wants a cabin in the mountains somewhere. Or maybe you're dreading the end of summer and need to look forward to staying at a home on the beach with a view of the ocean. Or maybe you love to cook, so you want to stay in a home with your dream kitchen. Wherever your travel plans take you, it's the perfect time to get a little reset, together as a family, before the holiday season and craziness begins. But here's something you may not have considered. If you're planning to go away this year, leaving your own space empty,

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• 22:43Speaker 00

  Tell me, for the dad or the mom listening, I think a common thought is, okay, but so you're just telling your son it's okay to freak out about getting in the stroller? Like, he has to know that's not okay behavior. You don't want to reinforce that. Like, that's, I think, a very traditional mindset, right? So, does that thought ever come up for you, or when you hear that from moms or dads around you? How do you think through that?

• 23:09Speaker 01

  I think, at first, that makes sense logically. When having a toddler, you understand, I'm playing the long game. Like, I'm here to, I'm here to not only just get him to the park, I'm here for him to feel loved the entire way to the park. Whether that's, whether I had a long day, or whether I didn't. You know, not only am I here for him to feel loved, I want him to see my wife is loved. Like, that my wife, that I took time for her, I grabbed her a water, I, we slowed down, and we didn't let feelings dictate how we were going to operate in our day. We... Acknowledge them, but we were able to find something, a solution that helped us all

• 23:50Speaker 01

  get in a better place because if he's in a bad place, it could all slew into all of us getting into worse places. So we, you know, we're taking care of him and he's our priority, of course, but we're also taking care of ourselves.

• 24:02Speaker 00

  I just want to hear back something you said. It's so powerful and your language is so powerful. Like I'm playing the long game, number one, and I think about that a lot with parenting.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:10Speaker 00

  Whether you're kind of playing the right now optimizing for ease in this moment game.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  I could turn on the TV. I could, you know, I could do whatever. I could, easy.

• 24:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. Give him something, go on my, or leave the room. That's easy. Those are easy.

• 24:24Speaker 00

  They're easy. Or I guess I could scream at my kid and he'd become so scared that he'd get frozen and then I'd pick him up and put in the stroller, right? But whether you're optimizing for easy in the moment or the long game of, and what you just said, it's not just about getting my kid to the park. I want my kid to feel loved on the way to the park. That's really profound. And loved doesn't mean giving in, right?

• 24:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:50Speaker 00

  But loved means I see you.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:53Speaker 00

  And we can stay connected. You still have a parent and a leader and a coach in your hard moments. When I think about their long game and your son is going to be, you know, I don't know, let's say 16 and about four, you know, 14 years, right? There's going to be a lot of moments when he's away from you and something really hard is going to happen.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:15Speaker 00

  And his body is either going to remember, like, this is going to get me in trouble. This is going to get met with more fear, more distance, more judgment from my dad. Or this is something my dad is going to be able to be present for. He's still going to see me as a good kid, even if I have a hard moment and he's going to help coach me through this. I mean, that literally makes all the difference at 16.

• 25:38Speaker 01

  A friend of mine, he has an 18 year old. He just went to college. I'm just, I was asking him the other day. I'm like, what did you like, how are you processing, like, him making his own decisions now? And he said something that I thought was so profound. He was said, we made the things that were important when the stakes were low, but when the stakes were high. They understood that everything mattered. So for instance, like, you know, dating somebody or the decisions that he had, those are little bit higher stakes or, you know, what school he's gonna go to and those things like that. But they made things that were maybe lower stakes of like disrespecting, talking. They, they, everything mattered to them when the stakes were low.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  So when they were higher, they could actually, you know, know that they can trust their parents, that they're present, that they're gonna be there no matter what, and that everything mattered to them. And I just thought that was really important.

• 26:32Speaker 00

  That's beautiful. And I know you and I were talking about these toddler tantrums, right?

• 26:35Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I'm taking the Good Inside class right now. I was telling you before we got on, I'm like 30 minutes in. I'm trying to work through it, but my wife and I were like, we have to take these. And I, I, I love your process in it and just being able to validate and see, uh, really, really, everything I'm repeating is just regurgitating what you said on, on Good Inside on the app. And so I just appreciate your voice in that, cuz it's really helpful. Cuz it goes quickly from being a baby to a toddler. It, it was so interesting. Like, I know when you asked me about what I remember about my son, it just, everything, he existed and now he's a human. And that's what, like, I, I, I remember these beautiful moments of existing. Now I'm like, oh, I'm teaching him now. He's learning things and he's seeing things and it's just such a different.

• 27:19Speaker 00

  And, and, and I want to let anybody listening or watching know, people are generally surprised that tantrums start so early. It is usually before two. Terrible twos, that like phrase that we all think. Honestly, in the one year, even 11 months,

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:33Speaker 00

  that's when toddlers start tantruming. So that's totally normal. And it's powerful to just know, all a tantrum really is, is a surge of feelings without skills to manage feelings. Cuz kids aren't born with skills to manage feelings, but they're born with the feelings.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 27:49Speaker 00

  So that's all a tantrum is. And, and the reason I love this long game perspective around how we deal with tantrums is it's true. When our kid is 16 or 26, I don't think telling them they can't have ice cream for breakfast is gonna lead to a tantrum. Like, I hope not. But your kid is going to want something and not be able to have it.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 28:09Speaker 00

  They're going to get fired from a job. They're going to be jealous of a friend. They're going to be mad at someone they love. And being able to learn when you're one, two, and three, I'm allowed to have feelings. By the way, my parent will stop me from hitting. All behavior isn't okay, but all feelings are. I always think it's just like the ultimate power move and emotional privilege.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:33Speaker 00

  Growing up, and that's what you're teaching during a tantrum.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was saying, I was saying the other day, I was talking to the dads and my son bit someone and I was, I was embarrassed, like for myself, and I know that's maybe weird to say, but I, I felt him, and it was interesting because all of what happened was with him and dealing with how he was feeling and, and it, you know, that happens, emotions happen. But I was like, why am I feeling this way? It was such an internal perspective. Not only was his tantrum what happened with him, but it also happened inside of me too. And I'm like, why am I feeling maybe embarrassed or sad, you know, that this happened? As a parent, and I thought that was interesting to feel because not only is he feeling something, I'm feeling something too. How he operates in the world.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  I feel it too, you know, and it matters to me as well. And so I'm like, is this a reflection? Is he going to be like this forever? Is he going to do this? Is this going to happen? And, you know, I think all those things go through your mind. So being able to like calm myself as well during that moment is important as well.

• 29:35Speaker 00

  Seriously, I remember talking to, it was a dad who was seeing me in my private practice years ago. And he'd always come in talking, he was on this big journey of being like a different kind of father. And he felt like that was the most important kind of journey of his lifetime. And, and he'd always come in talking, oh, my kid had this tantrum, was biting with this. There's always stuff to talk about, right? And we'd always kind of pause and try to think about, well, what's the story you're telling yourself? First of all, about your kid's behavior, because we don't respond to our kids' behavior.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:00Speaker 00

  We respond to the story we tell ourselves and the feelings that come up in us and all this thing, this stuff. And I just remember him looking at me and saying, Becky, one time, can you just tell me? This has nothing to do with you. This is all your kid's fault, you know, like, and we kind of like laughed about it because it is funny. When you really pause and you watch your kid, their behavior can be so difficult and inconvenient. I always feel like that's just, it's inconvenient when your kid's biting another kid. You're like, oh, man, gotta really figure this out. But really, what goes on for us is we have something happening inside of us. And so much of the reason we want to stop the tantrum, stop doing that, is we just want to stop the feeling happening inside of us. It's not even have to do with our kid.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:42Speaker 00

  So the fact that you're so open, when you said, is that weird? It's embarrassing, or it brought up so much. Yes, when our kid bites, or hits, or says to us, I doubt this has happened yet. I hate you.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 30:55Speaker 00

  It will happen. I'm giving you some emotional vaccination. Get ready. All good kids say those things. They do. If we're aware, let me first check in and just notice what's happening for me. We can really slow down the process. And that's, that's actually such a power move, I find.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. I think there's just so much internal introspective thought process in how it's processing and how he's going through it. But it, I, I think about myself too. I'm like, I'm 33 years old. And then there's times where I'm like, yo, why am I acting like this? Why am I, I'm embarrassed by myself too. I'm like, yo, I need to react better.

• 31:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  He doesn't have those skills to regulate. I do. So it's like.

• 31:40Speaker 00

  You know, and when it comes to biting, I just actually had this new thought. So many times as adults, you know, we have biting comments.

• 31:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:46Speaker 00

  Right? It actually is interesting to think, okay, maybe I don't literally bite another human. I'm just going to put this out there. I'm hoping that's not happening for anyone. But we also have biting moments, which is kind of helpful when you realize what might be happening for your kid. Why would I, in a situation, have some comment come out of my body that's so cruel and so biting? Oh, I was probably, even in that moment, overwhelmed with a feeling, and I didn't have a skill in the moment to manage it. So it kind of viciously came out of me.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I notice those way more, having a child. It's just like a mirror. You know, I'm, my wife will, you know, if we have a little back and forth, and I'm like, oh, he's right there watching this. I'm like, this is not something, not only like, of course, I know I need to respond better, but I want him to understand how he's loved and cared for, and that we also are trying to figure out our own things internally, myself, you know? I think that's important to see, but I'm not, you know, above him biting. You know, I also have my own things that go back and forth, for sure.

• 32:50Speaker 00

  Do you feel like? Talking so openly, right? And being, I find you remarkably emotionally available, is what I would say. Do you notice that having a ripple effect on other fathers?

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think sometimes I share too much, but I think that's like my characteristic. But I think fathers are really, like, we have a chat, like, outside of the Discord that are where our community lives. And like yesterday, I'm hitting them like, hey, I'm wrestling with my son being upset today. Um, what do you guys think? And it's like six, seven dads saying, hey, this is what happens. It's okay. Here, here, here's some things you can do. Get him out, literally what I was doing, which was really helpful. And it affirmed me, like, hey, just get him outside, try to do something. Hey, maybe if you take him out of that environment. Like, all the things that I was doing made me feel seen and encouraged in what I was doing. Not that I was just alone. Of course, my wife and I were, you know, this is the best decision.

• 33:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  But having an outside community speaking into that is really helpful. Because you could feel like, am I the only one doing this? I don't know if this is normal. I don't know if this is happening. So having other dads and people being able to go through that as well. And they're going through the same things. Like, they're like, hey, my son's doing this, my, my daughter's sick, or, you know, this is happening and this is happening. Being able to normalize that is just such a different, you know, ideology of parenting. I feel like being, than being able to just be in your, you know, your house, your, your own, you know, your own room. Being able to take it outside of that with community, I think is helpful.

• 34:23Speaker 00

  I think the fear that we're the only one is present in every parent's brain. And it happens, you see your kid, and you're like, does any other kid actually tantrum like this? Like, everyone says, oh, kids do this, but do I actually have?

• 34:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:37Speaker 00

  The kid who's the sociopath? Like, people worry about that all the time. The reason it's so important to have a community to talk about that with is that fear, I'm the only one, my kid's the only one. It leads to us getting so activated with our nervous system. We really go into fight or flight mode. So then you respond to your kid from fight or flight mode.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:56Speaker 00

  And that simple outlet, which isn't simple, but it's, you know, straightforward. Hey, anyone else going through this? Hey, any ideas? It's really not a nice to have. Like, it's a critical part of the parenting journey.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I was looking at, uh, just a phrase it takes to village. And I was like, where does it come from? It's that actual African proverb. It's like centuries of like, what, what parents have, have understood that it takes more than just you and your partner. It takes grandparents. If you don't have grandparents like us here, it takes community, teachers. There's people that my son will see that validate him, that see him, not only him, but also me in those elements. And I think that's the healing journey. He'll, he'll never have to see himself as isolated. He'll see my dad interacted with other men, other people.

• 35:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  Uh, was proud of his friendships, was really open. And not only that, but he had those friendships as well.

• 35:51Speaker 00

  All right. I want to end with five rapid fire questions.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 35:55Speaker 00

  You ready?

• 35:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:56Speaker 00

  Need to shake it out, stretch? Okay, good. Okay. What's one stereotype about dads that you want to retire so we can build stronger communities for them?

• 36:05Speaker 01

  Uh, that dads are stupid, I would say. Dads don't know anything, I would say.

• 36:11Speaker 00

  Let's retire that.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  Let's retire that. That we're, we're, we know, we're, we want to learn, I would say.

• 36:16Speaker 00

  Finish the sentence. A moment in the last month I was really proud of as a dad or as a husband was?

• 36:23Speaker 01

  It was our seven year anniversary. Uh, we had a babysitter. Um, we spent time together, my wife and I. And I think that was just a really proud moment to be able to feel that our son was safe at home, to be able to talk about where we've come from, where we're going as a family. I think that was really good.

• 36:43Speaker 00

  I think I commented on your story that day.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. We, of course, we did a TikTok.

• 36:47Speaker 00

  I love it.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, of course.

• 36:48Speaker 00

  Okay. What feels harder or more vulnerable? Saying to your kid, "I love you," or saying to your kid, "I'm sorry"?

• 36:56Speaker 01

  I would say "I'm sorry" is more vulnerable. I think, I know this isn't a rapid answer, but one thing my dad used to say that I'm trying to unlearn a little bit is, "I don't want to be right, I just don't want to be wrong." And it really, I had to unlearn a little bit of that. Like, you can be wrong and be sorry and be open about those things. And so, I think "I'm sorry" is really important to me.

• 37:18Speaker 00

  And I just want to name, you know, to me, the most powerful relationship strategy in the world is repair.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:24Speaker 00

  And you can only repair if you made a mistake, which also is just a sign you're human.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:29Speaker 00

  But it is so hard, because I don't think many of us had parents who really gave us a good "sorry." Not like, "I'm sorry you feel that way." No, like, "I'm sorry," right? And so, I think "I'm sorry" is harder for a lot of people than "I love you."

• 37:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it puts you on the same field of like, "Hey, actually, I need you to like, I need you to like, acknowledge, I'm actually kind of putting myself a little, you know, lesser than you." Like, that's what I feel like that generation may be thought of.

• 37:55Speaker 00

  It feels like that, exactly.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  You know, where they're like, "Oh, man, like, I can't be sorry to a kid." Like, "He's a kid," you know, or "they're a kid." And I think, being able to be like, "No, if I react poorly, I'm sorry, period." Regardless of who, age, whatever, you know.

• 38:11Speaker 00

  It is such a kind of new, cycle-breaking thought. And I know now I'm undoing my rapid-fire questions, but, no, it's a really good point. And just to give anyone listening a different model, if you think about the best CEO in the world who snaps at someone during a meeting, or the best NBA coach who is overly harsh at someone in a game. Those leaders say sorry, if they're effective. And I don't think anyone would see that coach go up to a player and say, "Hey, I was like, having a moment, I was frustrated with how our team is playing, I totally took it out on you, I'm sorry." I just don't know if someone would say, "That coach totally lost their ability to have power." No, you'd be like, "Well, good thing, if not, that player probably would have acted out for the rest of the week."

• 38:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I think we could change a lot in the world, and in government in general, if men just said their sorry a lot more. So, I think that's what I'm trying to realize in myself.

• 38:57Speaker 00

  Cheers to that. Okay, if you could give a brand-new dad only one piece of advice, what would it be?

• 39:05Speaker 01

  I would say, be patient with yourself. It's your first time, and their first time as well. Yeah, just be patient. You have everything, you're meant to be here.

• 39:16Speaker 00

  Oh, love that. I think sometimes parents need to hear, you're the right parent for your kid.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. You're the only one that they're, you're the best version of yourself today, and you're gonna be better tomorrow.

• 39:29Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  And no matter what you have said, or how that's playing out in your parenthood, or in your marriage, or whatever. Yeah, patience. You'll figure it out.

• 39:41Speaker 00

  I love that. All right, last one. I want you to picture your son 20, 25 years from now.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 39:48Speaker 00

  Okay, and someone just says to him, oh, like, what was your dad like growing up? And he says, oh, my dad? And then what do you hope he says?

• 39:56Speaker 01

  My dad had so many friends that loved him and cared for him, and I did too. And I think he had so many people, not only friends, I say my dad had so many people around him that loved him and supported him, and that he loved and served and supported too. And I want the same.

• 40:14Speaker 00

  He really visualizes this community, this belonging.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would hope that he sees this, not only, you know, today, or in a photo, or whatever, that he sees it active in my life, and in our marriage, and our, you know, and that he wants the same thing for his, you know, family.

• 40:31Speaker 00

  Incredible. Thank you. This is such a powerful conversation. I feel like I could talk to you forever, so it just means I'll have to have you back. So, thank you.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 40:39Speaker 00

  I have so many takeaways from this episode. I'm guessing you do too. But there's something Joe said that is cycling in my brain over and over, even now. When he talked about how he was intervening when his kid was having a tantrum about getting in the stroller, and they were just trying to get to the park, and he talked about playing the long game. He said this thing. He said, I don't just want to get my kid to the park. I want my kid to feel loved the whole way to the park.

• 41:10Speaker 00

  There's something about that language that feels so important to me and puts words to, I think, what so many of us are trying to do with our kid. And so I know for me, when I inevitably have a frustrating moment later today with my own kid, and I'm just thinking, I need to shut this down right now. I have a goal of getting to bed, of turning off the TV. I can set certain boundaries, but my goal is for my kid to feel loved the whole time. I'm so thankful to Joe for putting that idea in my head. All right, let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground and a hand on your heart.

• 41:49Speaker 00

  And let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon.

• 42:03Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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• 43:24Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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• 44:20Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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