The Hussite Wars: Bohemia vs. Rome

Why would the execution of a single Czech priest spark decades of bloody revolution across Europe? In 1414, the outspoken reformer Jan Hus was promised safe conduct to a church council, only to be arrested, tried for heresy, and burned at the stake. Dr. Eleanor Janega and Matt Lewis as they uncover the explosive Hussite Wars; a brutal conflict over church corruption, communion wine, and the right to preach in one's mother tongue. Did this rebellion pave the way for the Reformation? MORE The Czech Braveheart: Jan Žižka Listen on Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-czech-braveheart-jan-%C5%BEi%C5%BEka/id1564113746?i=1000585143330 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/59wq9imDllVuDj97YoPCxl Charles IV, Holy Roman Emperor Listen on Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/charles-iv-holy-roman-emperor/id1564113746?i=1000669809474 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/5cujnC4YwnU6GJu8zbHvuw Gone Medieval is now on YouTube! Watch here https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTTlBi6H0ic4MMK8PCrW_oA: @GoneMedievalPodcast https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTTlBi6H0ic4MMK8PCrW_oA Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week, PLUS early access, ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. Gone Medieval is presented by Matt Lewis and Dr. Eleanor Janega. The studio manager is Hanif Hussain. The researcher is Dr. Florence H R Scott. Video producer is McKenna Fernandez. Edited by Amy Haddow, channel manager is Vilde Oksnes. Production Manager is Beth Donaldson. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff. All music used is courtesy of Epidemic Sounds. Gone Medieval is a History Hit podcast History Hit is part of Little Dot Studios, a Certified B Corp™ Watch Matt and Eleanor's film The Ascent to Power: Eleanor of Aquitaine and Henry II now on History Hit TV. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week, PLUS early access, ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Matt Lewis?

  From long-lost Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places, to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr. Eleanor Yarnagger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life only on History Hit. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand new release every week exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.

• 0:42Speaker 01

  I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone. And I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh. Anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them.

• 0:55Speaker 02

  Everybody, listen up.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for Watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.

• 1:12Speaker 02

  Hey, it's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast. As businesses scale, success depends on how well knowledge is captured, shared, and kept up to date. Camtasia Pro turns teams' expertise into engaging training, onboarding, and documentation. No professional editing experience required. With the industry's best screen recording, video editing, and AI-powered workflows, you can train faster and boost operational efficiency. Get over $100 off your first year at camtasia.com and start building a smarter way to educate customers, onboard employees, and ensure valuable expertise is shared across teams.

• 1:46Speaker 03

  In Our Time is a world-class seminar every week. Why was Jeremy a lonely snail? What were lines doing in York in the 3rd century? I'm Misha Glennie, and every week I'm joined by expert guests to explore the ideas that shape our world.

• 2:01Speaker 04

  It's one of the first times, really, that you consistently see someone painting teeth. I know that sounds bonkers.

• 2:06Matt Lewis?

  If I was going to define mathematics, I would say it's the study of structure.

• 2:09Speaker 03

  In Our Time, listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Tea or coffee? Love a cup of tea.

• 2:19Matt Lewis?

  On the 6th of July, 1415, a Czech preacher named Jan Hus was burned at the stake. And the metaphorical fire that he lit didn't go out there. It spread through Prague, through Bohemia, and into one of the most explosive religious revolts of the Middle Ages. What did Hus say that was so dangerous to the emperor? Why did communion wine become a battle line? And how did a movement born from preaching in the common language of Czech turn into crusades, civil war, and brutal factional fighting? Welcome to Gone Medieval. Today, we're talking about the Hussites and a revolution over faith, power, and the right to challenge the Church.

• 3:18Matt Lewis?

  So, I don't know. This is kind of one of your favorite topics.

• 3:21Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah.

• 3:24Matt Lewis?

  This is your big chance to convince all the Hussite skeptics out there.

• 3:27Eleanor Janega?

  I mean, well, in the first place, if you're a Hussite skeptic, grow up. Okay? What does that even mean? Right? Like, what are you? You're the Church? You're the Emperor Sajdismun now? No, I don't. I don't accept any of this. But, yeah, I think that this is one of these really big and interesting and important things. You know, as you rightly say, this is an actual revolution. And this is the first time that anywhere in Europe in the Middle Ages that had been Catholic ceases to be so. So, you know, we talk about Protestants constantly. Like, everyone's always going on and on and on about Martin Luther. But Czechs did it first and better, baby. And everyone's just mad, so.

• 4:06Matt Lewis?

  I'm going to very much enjoy playing devil's advocate.

• 4:09Eleanor Janega?

  Okay.

• 4:10Matt Lewis?

  I hope you're still talking to me at the end.

• 4:11Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, good luck.

• 4:12Matt Lewis?

  So, before we get too far into the Hussites, we've talked a bit about Jan Hus speaking Czech and that being part of what is going on. So where exactly is Jan Hus in the world?

• 4:24Eleanor Janega?

  Okay, so Jan Hus is most active in Prague. And Prague, then, as now, is the capital of Bohemia. Bohemia is one of two states that in the Middle Ages, we collectively call the Czech lands. That's Bohemia. And Moravia. Moravia, the capital of that is Borno. Unssung, we love Moravia too. And then that's what makes up the Czech Republic or Czechia. Disputed content. Talk to me about it later, okay? But if you are in Czech now, you're in one of those two states, right? And Bohemia is part of the Holy Roman Empire. And it has been essentially since the establishment of the Holy Roman Empire. And within that, it is arguably the richest and most influential kingdom.

• 5:07Eleanor Janega?

  It's got really incredible silver mines. It's a huge crossroads for Europe. And at this point in time, in the 14th and 15th centuries, it's also got the actual capital. All right, so the Luxembourg Dynasty, which has been headed up by my guy, the Emperor Charles IV, John of Luxembourg before that, boo. But then Charles IV and then his sons are on the throne in Prague. And they have gone about remaking Prague into basically the city that everybody likes today. So if you go to Prague and everything that's called Charles, Charles Bridge, Charles University, Charles Square, all of these things were created by the Emperor Charles IV so that Prague could be seen as this new Holy Roman Imperial capital.

• 5:52Eleanor Janega?

  And we have all these anachronisms when we talk about medieval history now, where, you know, we're constantly talking about England. And England is very interesting. But it is a fact that the wealthier and more influential kingdom in the medieval period is Bohemia, right? And that is just true. That is a matter of fact. But when we talk about the Holy Roman Empire, there's even a tendency of people to just call it Germany, which is not true. You know, there's Italian bits, there's Czech bits. There's all sorts of things going on in there. There are French bits in the Holy Roman Empire. And the Holy Roman Empire, I would say, is sort of vying with France's most important place at the time. So there's all of this stuff going on, right? Also, in Bohemia, we've got to understand

• 6:35Eleanor Janega?

  the Church is very important and wealthy. Like, surprise. It's the Middle Ages, right? And so estimates about the amount of land that the Church owns in Bohemia vary from about 30% to 50% of all land, which is like crazy work. So also at this point in time, when Charles is trying to make Prague as this new capital, what he does is he establishes Karlovo University. It's then just called the University of Prague. All right? This is established in 1347. In order to have that done, you have to have a papal bull. He gets it. And this is a really big deal. Because now, if you want to go to university, you don't have to go to Paris. You don't have to go to Bologna. You can come to Prague instead.

• 7:17Eleanor Janega?

  But they do this really interesting thing at the University of Prague. And the way they set up the university is they set it up into what they call nations. So there is the Bohemian Nation, the Bavarian Nation, the Polish Nation, and the Saxon Nation. And this kind of reflects what the ethnic makeup of Prague is like at the time. You have a majority of Czech speakers who are kind of like Slavs, you know? Cool, whatever. There are also a bunch of German speakers who live especially within the cities and towns around in Bohemia. You have a lot of Jewish people. There's a huge Jewish community in Prague. You have a pretty sizable Roma community as well. But we're also dragging in people, you know, from other parts of the German lands

• 8:02Eleanor Janega?

  and also from Poland in order to come to this university. And that is what these nations are supposed to reflect. So it's an incredibly complex urban milieu, which I think is sometimes part of the reason people don't want to deal with this. Because it's like, oh, that's too much, you know?

• 8:18Matt Lewis?

  This episode then feels a bit like you've gone into a pick and mix shop and chosen all your favorite bits. We've got the Holy Roman Empire.

• 8:24Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah.

• 8:24Matt Lewis?

  We've got Charles IV. We've got Czech history. We've got Prague. We've got Jan Hus. Some cola bottles. We're not missing very much, are we? So if Prague is such a key centre at the moment, effectively operating as the capital of the Holy Roman Empire, how is society there structured? Is Charles ruling directly? Is there another king of Bohemia around?

• 8:45Eleanor Janega?

  So Charles is both the king of Bohemia and the Holy Roman Emperor. But one of the big things that he's attempting to do as he's kind of aging out is he wants to make sure his garbage terrible sons inherit the imperial throne. He does a lot of work on this. It's very similar to sort of Eleanor of Aquitaine and Henry II in that he's this incredibly effectual ruler that does a great job. And then he has these garbage terrible sons, right? Same, same. So he makes sure that his son Václav, or Václav, depends on who you're asking, is then crowned king of Bohemia after him. And he's also crowned king of the Romans. Now, I've explained this all in our Holy Roman Empire explainer before. First, you get crowned king of the Romans, then you get crowned Holy Roman Emperor.

• 9:30Eleanor Janega?

  His other garbage son, Sajdismun, is over in Hungary, and he's the king of Hungary, right? And so they are taking care of those kingdoms. And then when Charles shuffles off the mortal coil, Václav is in charge of Bohemia. And he's supposed to be the Holy Roman Emperor, but he's not very good at the job. And people don't like him very much. So it sort of skips off of him and on to his brother Sajdismun instead.

• 10:01Matt Lewis?

  Okeydoke. So we're at a peak with Charles IV.

• 10:03Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah. Oh, very much so, yes. And...

• 10:07Matt Lewis?

  You've already said, England isn't as important as Bohemia. So in the spirit of English exceptionalism, let's talk a bit about England.

• 10:15Matt Lewis?

  Because it is an important part of the story. It's not just being weird and dragging in England into everything. What is the connection between England and Bohemia at this point?

• 10:24Eleanor Janega?

  Okay, so in 1382, we have Anne of Bohemia, who is Charles's daughter, Václav's loss and Sigmund's sister, married off to the English crown. So she marries Richard the Saga, one of our more garbage kings. And this is like in a scandal for the English and for the Czechs. Because the Czechs are like, what's in England? Has anyone heard of this thing? I mean, they literally send people over to England to be like, what's here?

• 10:49Matt Lewis?

  Is it even real?

• 10:50Eleanor Janega?

  I don't know if this is real. And then the English are all upset because Anne, since this is like a major demotion for her, doesn't bring a dowry with her. Because part of it is they're like, no, seriously, I'll give you so much land. You could have so much land, girl, just come on over, right? And so they're like, well, why hasn't she brought any money? And it's like, because, baby, this is a sheep land. And this is a Czech princess, so please be serious, right? So they are really, really young at the time. They're both under 15 years old. The great news about this is it sparks up this incredible cultural exchange. So, you know, Henins that have the two double crowns, Anne of Bohemia did that. Thank you very much.

• 11:33Eleanor Janega?

  The word hackney, coach or cab comes from a thing called a yakni. And it was like something that she introduced. But also, you know, Prague has all this incredible Gothic architecture that Charles paid a hefty price for, that influences architecture over here. And in like the opposite direction, we have a major connection, very specifically between scholars. Because, look, I'm out here talking trash about England. Oxford was a very good university. It was a very good university.

• 12:04Matt Lewis?

  I was gonna ask whether anything went back in the other direction.

• 12:06Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, and it does. And so one of the big things that goes back and forth is scholastic interchange. Which is not great news if you're a very staunch Catholic at the time, because at this late in time in Oxford, that's when we are celebrating the work of one John Wycliffe.

• 12:26Eleanor Janega?

  And so people who were studying Wycliffe at Oxford, or even under Wycliffe at Oxford, they're coming over to Bohemia now because they're like, oh, what's all this? I hear there's another university, there's a lot of stuff going back and forth. And we see a massive influx of Wycliffe's writings. And these writings make it to the desk of the head of the theology faculty at the University of Prague, one Jan Hus. And he is like, I love this. I love John Wycliffe and I want to hug and kiss him. And he basically is just like, this is all wonderful. But unfortunately for him, John Wycliffe had just been condemned by the church as a heretic. So, you know, this, this is going to cause a kerfluffle.

• 13:10Matt Lewis?

  So the major export from England is religious and cultural dissent and civil war.

• 13:18Eleanor Janega?

  Which is wonderful, actually. Like, it's such a good, I love religious and cultural.

• 13:21Matt Lewis?

  Well done. We'll, we'll take the Henin, we'll take the Gothic architecture.

• 13:24Eleanor Janega?

  And you can have.

• 13:25Matt Lewis?

  Fall out with each other.

• 13:26Eleanor Janega?

  You can have some heretics. Fantastic. Good stuff.

• 13:30Matt Lewis?

  So we've got Jan Hus then sitting at the desk at his university. Who, who is he? How has he got to where he is?

• 13:35Eleanor Janega?

  So he is one of these classic churchmen in that he is the son of a very poor noble family. He's from southern Bohemia. So is my family, so that's cool. A very, very cool thing to be. And, and he's born in around the 1370s. We have a surplus of children and he shows some intellectual talent. So he is sent off to a monastery and they're like, oh, no, this kid is smart, smart. And he gets taken out of the monastery and sent up to Prague, to the university. He enters the register as an actual instructor at the university in 1398. And as soon as he does so, essentially, he celebrates by publicly defending John Wycliffe.

• 14:21Eleanor Janega?

  He's like, hey, oh, he like, he gets tenure, right? It's like 1398 and he's got tenure. So he's like, 1399, I love, I love the Lawards, right? It's, it's great stuff. It's great stuff, right? But.

• 14:33Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, so he, so he's exposed to, to Wycliffe's thinking and teaching. What is driving Wycliffe's kind of descent from Roman Catholic teachings?

• 14:43Eleanor Janega?

  So one of the major things that they have going on is they feel that the church as an institution is essentially riddled with moral failings. And that it is a mistake to look at just the structure of what is essentially a legal organization and say, well, this can provide salvation. There is also, very particularly for both the Lawards and the Hussite, a large emphasis on doing things in the vernacular language. So Hus is very interested particularly in translating the Bible into Czech from Latin, much as Wycliffe did for English, right? And that is a really big deal. So somehow, even after he was like, woo, heresy, yeah.

• 15:27Eleanor Janega?

  Like, Hus gets ordained as a regular member of the clergy, so not just a clerk, which is when you're in the university, an actual member of the clergy. And he sets up his own chapel called Bethlehem in about 1402. And he is giving all of his sermons in Czech and they're praying in Czech, okay?

• 15:45Matt Lewis?

  And that, because this is a serious threat to the establishment. They have control over the language. Very few people can speak and understand the Latin of services. They're reliant on the church to tell them what it all means. You start preaching in people's own languages, you're kind of democratizing all of that. And there are elements that really don't want that.

• 16:03Eleanor Janega?

  And it's interesting because there's been a fairly long tradition of preaching in Czech in Czech, right? This is something that has been happening. It's kind of like the creep into the prayers and the Bible that the church is looking at going, I don't know about all this. Because as you say, the sermons are supposed to be the thing that demystifies it. So, you know, you get your Bible reading in Latin, you get your prayers in Latin, and then the priest is like, okay, and let me tell you what all that meant, right? But if you're saying it in someone else's language, you can do that because there is, you know, this, this buffer zone. But if you're giving it to them in the vernacular, they can say, well, that's not how I feel that Bible verse should be translated and I don't think we should relate to that, right? So basically then, obviously, this is going to cause problems, right?

• 16:48Eleanor Janega?

  Because he's super, super prominent, he's at the university, he's preaching in one of the most important cities in Europe at the time. And the church is like, I'm afraid you need to stop, right? Like, this is, this is not the one. So in 1403, it is declared that all of Wycliffe's texts need to be burnt, right? And now Hus had been like, I am translating Wycliffe into Czech. He's just like, he's just spending his whole time, he's just like, it's in Czech now, bang, bang, right? And the church is like, oh my God, you need to stop that. And point blank, Hus is just like, I'm not going to stop doing this, no. And the Bohemian students are like, we love this, this is great.

• 17:31Eleanor Janega?

  They are like bringing out these documents, being like, we love Wycliffe and we love everything that you're doing. Then they like give it to him in 1406 and he like, he goes to Bethlehem and he's like, got a letter from my students here, says John Wycliffe's great, you like that? And like, the church is like, I specifically requested the exact opposite of this. So, you know, he's, he's 100% poking the bear, which I really, I really respect about him.

• 18:00Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And Wycliffe has also been active through the period of kind of the Western schism. Is that reaching as far as Prague? Is that having an effect on Hus as well?

• 18:08Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, God, yeah. So Czechs are constantly on one about this, right? So the, the Western schism, that is when you've got a pope in Rome, you've got a pope in Avignon, sometimes a pope in Pisa.

• 18:20Matt Lewis?

  Pope for everyone.

• 18:21Eleanor Janega?

  I mean, like, listen, you know, why not? Who, who's to say? And essentially, the way that this shakes down is if you're French, you're like, oh, I think the Avignonese pope is great. And if you're mad at like one of, of the French, then you're, you're gonna go for Rome. Most people, if we're being honest, kind of side with Rome in this one. But I like Avignon, so, you know, this is one of these things, right?

• 18:44Eleanor Janega?

  This is kind of part of what makes it possible for Hus to be wiggling along, doing heretical things because he's like, this is your church. Like, these are the people who are able to say that they are the moral arbiters of anything. They're like, which one, babe? Like, pick a pope, pick a struggle, right?

• 19:01Matt Lewis?

  Imagine it gives him the chance as well to be like, "Look over there at the schism." Scribbling Czech.

• 19:04Eleanor Janega?

  100%. He's like, "Well, that's crazy." It's 100%, right? So, like, this is one of the things where we have to say that we find the Bohemians kind of come down on one side, right? And in particular, and very interestingly, Charles IV's son, Václavus, the king of Bohemia, is like, "Yeah, no, I think this is great. I think it's cool." Like, probably because he was not very clever. And he's like, "Yeah, can we do it in Czech, please? Like, my Latin is not great." You know, Charles, impeccable Latin, right? So, they basically all are on the same side. They are all kind of like pro-Rome. Unsurprising, right? They are not French. So, that is how that gents to go, right?

• 19:46Eleanor Janega?

  But as I say, in 1409, we have the Council of Pisa, and that's when you get your third pope. Because they're like, "Okay, this is great." It was actually a really smart idea, right? Because they're like, "Look, we can't keep having this, this Avignon Rome thing, so we are going to convene a new council. We are going to elect a new pope. This is Alexander V. Yeah? And just, you two are just gonna have to knock it off. You don't get to be the pope because you're behaving like children. So, here we go. New pope, Alexander V, right? And in general, the Bohemians, like, the Czechs are like, "Yeah, that seems smart. That seems like the fairest way of doing this. Alexander V, it is." The Germans are like, "No, we don't like that. We don't think that you should have the other councils."

• 20:29Eleanor Janega?

  So, like, the Saxon nation, the Bavarian nation, and the Poles are like, "No, we still want to be with Rome." And they're like, "Dude, we just had a whole meeting about this. Like, come on, right?"

• 20:39Matt Lewis?

  They accidentally did an elect two popes, get one free.

• 20:41Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, exactly. So, now we all, we just have three popes, right? So, we're in a giant mess. And one of the things that happens as a result of this papal schism is Václavus changes the university constitution, right? So, previously, everybody from the nations, they got kind of one vote on things. But what Václavus does, in an incredible move of proto-nationalism, is he's like, "Well, there's still four votes, but guess what? The Czechs get three, and everybody else gets one." Right? And so, and the Czechs are like, "We want the Pisan pope," right? So, and everyone else is mad, right? So, there's a bunch of resignations. The Germans are like, "I'm going to Leipzig, and

• 21:26Eleanor Janega?

  I'm starting my own university." And you, they basically lose, like, maybe 20,000 members in the, like, it's crazy. This is, this is a really, really big deal, right? Meanwhile, the Czechs are like, "See ya, suckers. Like, I mean, have fun in Leipzig, wherever that is." You know? And they're like, "Well, we're gonna keep running the university here."

• 21:47Matt Lewis?

  And also, if no one's using that fourth vote now, should we just?

• 21:49Eleanor Janega?

  Exactly, right? And then they're like, "Great, this expands the room that we have for Czechs and the people who love them," right? So, in 1409, Hus is elected the rector of the university as a whole, right? So, is the University of Prague smaller now? Yes. But it is all like, "Hey, what's up? We're doing our own religion, right? We're doing our own form of Christianity, got our own pope, not doing those other things. If you like the other popes, don't come here. And by the way, we're kind of cool with John Wycliffe."

• 22:20Matt Lewis?

  So, this sounds a bit like we've got a situation in which Hus is, is doing okay. The church might not like the fact he's translating some stuff into Czech, but ultimately, he's, he's sided with the Pisan pope. He's on the same page as his king. He's head of the university, which is now predominantly Czech, who all love the work that he's doing. His students are really happy with him. Is that the end of the story? Does it all go horribly wrong? How does he go from there to becoming an enemy of Christendom?

• 22:51Eleanor Janega?

  So, at this point in time, we essentially have Pope Alexander V do, like, a pro-wrestling heel turn, right? And Hus has, like, gone out of his way. Václavus have gone out of their way to be like, "We love Alexander V. He's great." But Alexander V is like, "I feel as though not enough people are siding with me, so what I am going to do is I'm also going to be down on Wycliffe." Because maybe that's going to bring, you know, the English church on side. And he is more particularly supporting the Archbishop of Prague. The Archbishop of Prague, being the Archbishop, is like, "I don't think this is a good idea." Right? Because they're, they are questioning how tithes come in. They're questioning the very way that the church is structured. And if you're one of the princes of the church,

• 23:36Eleanor Janega?

  you're not exactly going to want that to be taken away, right?

• 23:40Matt Lewis?

  Someone suddenly starts saying, "So, where do you get all your money from? Do you really need all of that?"

• 23:43Eleanor Janega?

  Exactly. And so, like, obviously, this goes down very badly. And then meanwhile, here in England, Lollards, who were the followers of Wycliffe, because Wycliffe, R.I.P., he is dead, but his students are still at the University of Oxford, and they are being burnt at the stake for heresy at this point in time. So, Alexander is like, "Well, we're not having any of that." And he's beaming in more particularly on what's going on in Prague, right? But then he dies. So, 1410, he dies, and instead, we get Pope John XXIII. And now, stop me if you've heard this one before, okay? But Pope John XXIII is like, "You know, I feel like the church really needs to raise

• 24:28Eleanor Janega?

  some more money. And what better way of doing this than selling indulgences?" Right? And this is a new thing, right? So, indulgences are usually something that you get for, like, a going-on crusade or going-on pilgrimage. So, for example, when Charles IV is doing all his nonsense in Prague, one of the things he does is he establishes a feast day, the Feast of the Holy Lance and Nail. And if you come see all of the celebrations in Prague, you get indulgences for that. So, you do something good, and you get some time off in purgatory, right? Remember, purgatory, that's hell with a timer, and that's where most of us are going after we die. Basically, what John XXIII says is like, "Let's just take the middleman out of here. You don't have to do anything good, right?

• 25:12Eleanor Janega?

  You don't need to do anything good for anyone. Just give me money, and I will give you a get-out-of-jail-free card," right? And Hus, quite rightly, is like, "Do you see what I was saying?" Right? This is exactly what-

• 25:24Matt Lewis?

  He's playing exactly into his hands.

• 25:25Eleanor Janega?

  Exactly.

• 25:26Matt Lewis?

  This is what he and Wycliffe before him have specifically been complaining about, the size, the corruption, and the wealth of the church.

• 25:32Eleanor Janega?

  Mm-hmm. 100%. And now, this is where things start getting tricky. Because Václavus, the king, this is bad King Václavus. It's not the good King Václavus, who is a saint. That's fine. That's another thing. But he is like, "Oh, I see a way of making money off of this, too." And so, he's like, "Yeah, I will give you licenses to sell indulgences." So, he's bringing in money, and he's like, "I agree with the pope. Indulgences are good, and Jan Hus is bad." And Hus is like, "I'm out of here. You are all mean girls. It's 1412, and I am going out into southern Bohemia, and I'm going to go out into exile, into castles, and I'm going to write and write and write and write, both in Czech for real ones and Latin for

• 26:17Eleanor Janega?

  everyone else. And I'm going to explain what it is I'm trying to get at with my religious teachings."

• 26:37Speaker 02

  Hey, it's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast. As businesses scale, success depends on how well knowledge is captured, shared, and kept up to date. Camtasia Pro turns teams' expertise into engaging training, onboarding, and documentation. No professional editing experience required. With the industry's best screen recording, video editing, and AI-powered workflows, you can train faster and boost operational efficiency. Get over $100 off your first year at camtasiapro.com and start building a smarter way to educate customers, onboard employees, and ensure valuable expertise is shared across teams.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone, and I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh. Anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them.

• 27:24Speaker 02

  Everybody, listen up.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade-in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for Watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.

• 27:42Speaker 06

  If you love a good story, why aren't you listening to Dan Snow's History Hit Podcast? It's a show where we tell you every amazing, crazy, and important thing that's ever happened in human history. From the perilous voyages of the first Polynesians, the discoveries of Captain Cook, the deadly Viking raids on Britain and Ireland, the rise and fall of the great English kings and queens. We'll tell you how Waterloo was won, the Alamo was lost, and all the history in between. So, make sure you check it out. Dan Snow's History Hit, for the best true stories ever told, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 28:35Matt Lewis?

  So at this point, Huss has basically been cancelled, but it's not shutting him up.

• 28:39Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, 100%, 100%. So he's been told very expressly what the powers that be want out of him. And he's like, no, thank you. Right?

• 28:49Matt Lewis?

  And so we've still got a situation where we've got three popes. Is there any kind of effort to resolve this? Are we ever going to end up with one pope again?

• 28:56Eleanor Janega?

  Ah, we are, and we do that through calling the Council of Constance, right? So at this point in time, we still have the three papacies, right? And Sajdismund, who's the king of the Romans and the king of Hungary, so Wenceslas's brother, yeah? Stay with me. He is like, we are going to call a new council. And when I say we, I mean you, John the 23rd, you're going to call a new council. And we're all gonna get together in Constance and we are going to just talk all of this thing out. And Sajdismund, as a part of this, is like, Jan, why don't you come on over? Why don't you come on over and just tell them what you think?

• 29:38Eleanor Janega?

  And it's not really a trap. Like, Sajdismund is kind of like pro Huss, like in a nominal way. In the same way that Wenceslas kind of is, they're like, I think he's making some points. Like especially because they probably stand to profit if the church doesn't own as much land. So they're like, yeah. And Huss says, okay, well, I'm gonna go out there. More particularly because Jan Huss is like, well, what, do you think I'm an idiot? Like, what am I, I'm gonna go like, put my head in the lion's mouth? No, I'm not gonna meet with the pope. And Sajdismund and Wenceslas say, no, no, no, no, look, we are going to guarantee your safety. We are going to guarantee that you can go to the Council of Constance and come back like on our honour, on our life. Right? So off Jan Huss heads over into the German lands in November 1414.

• 30:22Eleanor Janega?

  And he is immediately arrested.

• 30:26Matt Lewis?

  And has, have Wenceslas and Sajdismund tricked him at all? Or is this against their wishes too? I mean, they're two pretty powerful figures to be going against.

• 30:35Eleanor Janega?

  This is not, as far as they are concerned, part of the plan. They are apoplectic about this, actually. And they're like, we told him he would be safe. You are making a laughing stock of us and you're calling into question our word. So they are very, very unhappy about this. And he is put in prison and basically asked to recant what he believes. And in particular, he's asked to recant what he believes about Wycliffe. Like, this is, this is the thing, kind of over and over again, they keep going back to the Wycliffe, back to the Wycliffe. And to his credit, he's in jail and he's like, no, I'm not going to recount these things. I'm not going to recount, because they're like, here's the things you need to recount. And he's like, in the first place, I never said any of that.

• 31:20Eleanor Janega?

  So like, you can't ask me to recount something that I never said. That's not okay. And basically, there's a trial, a trial that goes on for four days from June 4th to June the 8th. And on the 6th of July 1415, they burn him at the stake.

• 31:40Eleanor Janega?

  And that's that, right? And then they say, well, we told him that he had the possibility to recant. But as far as he was concerned, he couldn't recant because he'd be lying.

• 31:49Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, but there's a, there's still a degree of personal bravery in that. He, he will know that the Lollards, Wycliffe's followers, are being burned in England. It's not a big leap to imagine that at the end of, of this kind of resistance is something pretty similar for him. And yet he's utterly sticking to his guns. That's, that's pretty impressive, pretty brave.

• 32:08Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, it's absolutely beautiful stuff, really, you know, because what we have here is someone who has a very clear moral compass. And at a time when you've got three bloody popes, right? Finally, there's some religious guidance out here. At least there's someone that you can look to for this stuff. And yeah, he's given the full heretic treatment, you know, they, they burn him at the stake. They throw the ashes in the river because people are worried that he will be worshipped as a saint. And that if you get hold of his body parts, that will be relics, right?

• 32:35Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. So Huss is gone, but that's far from the end of the story of the Hussites. So who are the Hussites and how do they begin to emerge onto the scene?

• 32:45Eleanor Janega?

  Okay, well, the Czechs take a very dim view of all this, right? They're like, that was our emotional support religious guy. We were enjoying hearing things in Czech. And they're not gonna back down. And also, I don't think that John the 23rd quite understood what was going on in the Czech lands. I think that he was like, well, that's the end of that chapter, got rid of that guy.

• 33:04Matt Lewis?

  Just that one annoying bloke sitting writing his books.

• 33:06Eleanor Janega?

  Exactly. And he didn't understand how into this everyone in Bohemia was. So we have three main guys who kind of emerge at this point as leaders of, I would say, the intellectual movement of Hussism. So you've got Jakobek of Stjibo, and he takes over Bethlehem Chapel in Prague, right? So he basically replaces Huss in Huss's own chapel. You have Wakslaw Karunda, and he is one of my faves. So he is one of the more radical Hussites, and he is from Tabor, which is the Taborites, right? They're like, this is around where my family's from, so I love them very much. And they are really serious, not just about doing things in Czech.

• 33:51Eleanor Janega?

  They want a massive reorganisation of society. They want a more equal society. They're like, yeah, the church has too much money and power, but so do nobles, right? Then we've got Jan Zelievsky, and he is one of the radical Hussites in Prague. Okay, so there will be like the Prague Hussites who are a little bit more chilled out there. And they're a little bit like, I don't know, man, communion, things of this nature. And then you've got Zelievsky, and he's like, no, I'm gonna burn all of this down. So that's, that's pretty cool, right? So in 1420, the Hussites publish a manifesto, right? So Jakobek of Stjibo, he's like the one who's like really behind this. It's called the Four Articles of Prague. And it is partially written by colleagues at the Prague University

• 34:37Eleanor Janega?

  as well as Jakobek and Jakob Mies, right? So they get together and they're like, this is what we as Hussites are demanding, right? This is a little bit more of the moderate view of things, shall we say, right?

• 34:52Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, but it's interesting that there is degrees within followers of Huss. There are, there are more radical versions of it, and there are more quiet and careful versions of it going on. But there is definitely lots of dissent still lingering around. That's kind of five years after Huss has been executed. So what are, what are some of the main things that do kind of unite them? You mentioned communion there. What do the Hussites believe about communion?

• 35:16Eleanor Janega?

  Okay, so we've got a fun term, which is utroquism, very fun to say. You know what? Try to get this in on the Scrabble board. Utraquism or utroquist, right? And this is very particularly saying that you want to have both wine and bread at Mass, right? One of the interesting things that gets the Lollards in trouble is that John Wycliffe doesn't believe in transubstantiation. Transubstantiation is the idea that when you do the Eucharist at Mass, the body and blood of Christ are the bread and wine, right? Like that, these things change. He believes in something instead called consubstantiation, where he says, no, it's both things at the same time.

• 36:01Eleanor Janega?

  It's both bread and the, and body, it's both blood and wine, right?

• 36:05Matt Lewis?

  Kind of a compromise, but nobody really tends to like a compromise.

• 36:08Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, exactly. Interestingly, we don't see much of that kind of debate about this at all from the Czech contingent. What they're like is, give poor people the wine. Because it is not very common to take communion all the time when you're Catholic at this point in time. You definitely take it, you know, when you get married, if you're dying, things like that. But this is something that will come up over and over again in the late medieval period because people want to take communion, they really, really believe in it. But when you go to communion, basically you get the bread and you watch the priest drink the wine. Because they're like, we're not giving the poor people wine. And then you go like, come on now, right?

• 36:52Eleanor Janega?

  And so what the utroquists are wanting is, it's called utroquiespacie. Okay, so they want to receive the communion in both species, both types, right? And like, Jakob Mies really thinks that this is important in terms of full participation in the Eucharist. And also, you know, everybody, everybody wants to do that, right? And this becomes a very big deal, very specifically for the Prague contingent. And they adopt the chalice as their symbol. If you go to Prague now and you see Tin Cathedral on the old town square, you'll notice up the top, there is a chalice there, which is commemorating this particular thing, right? Now, the radical Hussites, they go a little bit further.

• 37:36Eleanor Janega?

  And they are on the side of Wycliffe with this whole thing where they're like, we think it's consubstantiation, which is like full heretical, right? The people in Prague are like, let me just have the wine. The people in Tabor is like, yeah, everyone should get to have the bread and wine. And also have some things to say about this, right?

• 37:53Matt Lewis?

  Who'd have thought people from that kind of region had opinions on things?

• 37:56Eleanor Janega?

  I know, right?

• 37:57Matt Lewis?

  I don't know.

• 37:59Matt Lewis?

  One of the other big deals that is floating around, not exclusively with the Hussites, is clerical poverty, the idea that the church is too rich, essentially. That's not particularly new, is it? But what do the Hussites have to say about it?

• 38:10Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, no. So this, you know, happens all the time. So for example, when we saw the Franciscan movement in the 13th century, this was really born out of this belief. You see a lot of calls for this in the 14th century as well. It's one of the reasons that people think the Black Death might be happening. They're like, I don't know, maybe, maybe the church is a little too big for its britches, right? And the Hussites are alongside this as well. They're looking at who owns all the land in Bohemia. They're looking at the selling of indulgences and they're like, you can't be serious with this, right? Like, Jesus was a wandering cleric. Apostolic poverty, please, I'm begging you, right? And more in particular, they also really think that when the church has too much property,

• 38:53Eleanor Janega?

  secular authorities should confiscate it, just straight up. Like, half of all the land in Bohemia, for who, right? And they're like, this, this is not equitable, it's not fair, and it certainly isn't holy. So, you know, like when Saint Francis does it, it's quite cute. He's like, we're gonna wear a little robe and we're gonna preach and we're gonna beg. The Hussites are like, I'm taking that land.

• 39:17Eleanor Janega?

  So, you know, it is pretty, it's a massive and very material thing they are proposing here.

• 39:23Matt Lewis?

  And how important during all of this is the continuation of preaching in the Czech vernacular? Because presumably, once you give something like that to the people, you make them feel included, it's really difficult to take that back.

• 39:36Eleanor Janega?

  You cannot walk back the Czech liturgy. You know, people are loving this. They are 100% into hearing these prayers. So one of the things that you would see when you go into the Bethlehem Chapel, you know, it's ordinary to have, for example, frescoes and beautiful pictures on the walls of churches. In Bethlehem Chapel, they've written prayers in Czech, right? And so they're, they're, they are all about this. And you can't go from having all of this information to back to how things were, right? And they are not going to give up on this. The Bible has been translated, it's done, babe. Like, we've got our Czech Bible. Like, what do you want them to do? Stop using it? Like, that's not going to happen, right? That horse has bolted.

• 40:19Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, you can't forget that that's happened. And do the Hussites have a particular view on punishment? We're at a point where the church, you know, will quite happily send you to hell for lots of things. The Hussites sound like they're being quite gentle, they want to involve more people in religion. Does that make them softer on sin at all?

• 40:37Eleanor Janega?

  So their thing more particularly is they want kind of public punishments for what they think are mortal sins. And for them, they're kind of classifying the mortal sins, yeah, as like the seven deadly sins, but also if you go against the 10 commandments, right? So they want public punishment for these things, as opposed to, you know, ordinarily, if you commit some sin or another, you go, you confess to your priest, and then he'll say, that was very bad, you need to do penance for however long, right? For this, they're like, no, go out in public and tell everyone what you did, right? Like, which is pretty daunting.

• 41:16Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, I get the idea of not wanting to make people buy indulgences, but the idea that whatever you might confess behind closed doors to a priest, you now have to go and tell the whole community what you've done, is maybe not so appealing to many?

• 41:29Eleanor Janega?

  Well, yeah, and it isn't even appealing to all Hussites, right? So this is one of the big fault lines, like one of the big fracture lines, right? Where some people are like, I don't know about that, G, like, you know, I don't want to tell, I don't want to go stand in front of the entire congregation and say, yeah, I think that guy's wife's hot, right? Like, that's just gonna be weird for everyone, right? Like, no, thank you.

• 41:51Matt Lewis?

  Makes dinner parties awkward afterwards.

• 41:55Matt Lewis?

  Can you tell us a little bit too about the four articles? Where does Huss stand on that? Where do the Hussites stand on the four articles?

• 42:01Eleanor Janega?

  So this is one of these difficult things, because the Hussites are like, it's what John would have wanted, oh, John, everything in my heart, right? But Huss himself, he never really talked about utroquism. Like, this is going to be one of the really, really big and important things to the Prague contingent, but Huss was kind of like, yeah, I mean, sure, why not? Like, we presume that he was kind of into it, we do believe it's happening at Bethlehem, but he doesn't really write very extensively on this, which is wild, because he's written pretty extensively on everything else, right? He's definitely in favor of better morality, very particularly for clergy. And this, again, has been one of these things that we are hearing complaints about over

• 42:45Eleanor Janega?

  and over again, particularly in Prague, and increasingly in the latter half of the 14th century. So that is like nothing new under the sun. He also really does this, you know, vernacular preaching, and he wants to do this vernacular Bible, but people have been doing that for ages. You know, like, a lot of people preach in the vernacular, vernacular Bible, a little bit less so, but you know, the, you know, that is not that wild. He does not seem to believe that there should be public punishment for sins. He doesn't write about that at all, right? These things kind of come out of his martyrdom, right? These things kind of come out from what they think he would have wanted if he had been allowed to go further, right?

• 43:27Eleanor Janega?

  So this is one of those things that happens, and it's the problem with dying, because people can just shove words into your mouth.

• 43:34Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. We need to get on to the real drama now of the Hussite war and talk a little bit about how Joan of Arc is involved in all of this. So stick with us, we'll be right back after this.

• 44:31Speaker 06

  If you love a good story, why aren't you listening to Dan Snow's History Hit Podcast? It's a show where we tell you every amazing, crazy, and important thing that's ever happened in human history. From the perilous voyages of the first Polynesians, the discoveries of Captain Cook, the deadly Viking raids on Britain and Ireland, the rise and fall of the great English kings and queens. We'll tell you how Waterloo was won, the Alamo was lost, and all the history in between. So make sure you check it out, Dan Snow's History Hit, for the best true stories ever told, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 45:24Matt Lewis?

  So we want to get into some real drama now. We've talked a lot about theology, can we have some fighting, please? What, what do the Hussites do in reaction to Jan Hus's execution?

• 45:34Eleanor Janega?

  They're gonna fight about it, like 100%. They're just like, guess what? It's civil war time, right? So we have been talking about the speechifying, we've been talking about the religious part of it, but this is fundamentally something that they were like, well, hey, you killed our leader, so I guess we are fighting now. So they start attacking priests and the church, just as King Sigismund thought they would, they turn against him, so now they hate the emperor. Everybody is just like, that's it, we are doing a war about this, right? And it's probably an apocryphal story, but King Wenceslas dies in 1419. They say that he dies from the shock, the shock of hearing that Jan Hus is dead, right? And this means that now Sigismund is inheriting the Bohemian throne, because Wenceslas doesn't have issue, right?

• 46:20Eleanor Janega?

  So he doesn't, he doesn't have any sons. So Sigismund is like, well, okay, well, I guess I'm taking over this now. And everyone's like, this guy? We hate this guy, right? And so they are like, well, I don't even care. Like, not only am I rebelling against the church, I'm rebelling against the actual Bohemian throne at this point in time. And Sigismund is like, ah. These horrible Czechs, these terrible subjects of mine, who also happen to be my richest subjects, right? I really, really need to get this thing on lockdown. He's like, well, I have an easy way of doing this because since they are all also heretics, I can declare this a crusade.

• 46:56Matt Lewis?

  Ah, I thought you were gonna say he went in for a nice chat to try and calm everything down, but no.

• 47:00Eleanor Janega?

  Right? So he's like, look, we are going to kick off an actual crusade and then that's going to allow me to rope in people from other places. I can get the church to help preach this and then I don't even have to pay for it all, right? And this is going to kick off about 12 years of fighting, right? There are some incidental casualties in these. So for example, we have real devastation among the Jewish communities who were there at the time, right? So when Catholics will take over, they will burn the Hussites and the Jewish people. When Hussites take over a town, they will burn the Jewish people and the Catholics. The Jewish people are like, what am I doing? What's this going on?

• 47:45Eleanor Janega?

  Right? So this is a really terrible thing and it's what we tend to see whenever a crusade is called, right? You know, this is this, this really ongoing medieval tendency to lash out at Jewish people.

• 47:58Matt Lewis?

  We're now kind of 350 years into every crusade leading to a persecution of the Jews.

• 48:03Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, it's absolutely disgusting. And it's just like, I don't know, it's like a muscle memory for medieval people. They're like, oh, it's time to, it's time to absolutely go after this small group of people. So we absolutely hate to see it. It's, it's very sad, right? But what does happen as part of this is a coalescing to, we have real Hussite armies who are established, right? So they've got these little banners, they've got the chalice on it. It's very cute. And they are not just defending Bohemia. They're like, oh no, we'll, we'll, we'll take this to you, right? So they are attacking Saxony, they are going into Thuringia, they're going into Francoid. Like they, they are all about this life, right? They are called the fantastic rides, right? They'll go out and they'll just

• 48:47Eleanor Janega?

  go and like guerrilla warfare you and come back really quickly. It's, it's very, it's very modern, really.

• 48:54Matt Lewis?

  What you can't imagine is what Sigismund thought he'd get when he launched a crusade against his own people. I'll just sweep in there, knock their heads together and collect all of their money that falls out of their pockets. Instead, he suddenly got this aggressive war against his other territories going on.

• 49:09Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, completely. He just did not think that the people would be able to launch a defense, let alone an offense, right?

• 49:17Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And we talked a bit about the pick and mix shop earlier. Here's a late addition to your pick and mix that we can bring into this story too. What on earth has Joan of Arc got to do with the Hussites?

• 49:26Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, I wish she would stay out of it because I'm like, girl, don't do it, right? But allegedly she's got a letter. It was written in 1430 and she's like, when I'm done with the English, I'm coming for you Czech people. And I'm gonna come over there and I'm gonna take you on. And I'm like, Joan.

• 49:44Matt Lewis?

  Way to make friends and influence people.

• 49:46Eleanor Janega?

  Listen, don't do it, babe. And also a real smart, oh, now we're just cheering on people who burn heretics, is it? I ask you. Foreshadowing.

• 49:56Matt Lewis?

  And how does the war go for the Hussites? Are they able to kind of, we've talked about there's a bit of dissent amongst the, their beliefs. Are they able to hold it together to maintain this war of defense and aggression against Sigismund?

• 50:11Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, they absolutely are, which is wild because they're like, look, I don't necessarily like you, but what I definitely don't like is Sigismund, right? So he launches another invasion in 1431. Absolute total disaster. Just complete and utter failure, right? So he's constantly riding in. And I think that one of the things he doesn't really understand, and stop me if you've heard this one before, but if people live there, yeah, they're usually kind of like, well, I, I'm from here, so I would prefer you didn't take over. And you, he always has to march in, right?

• 50:45Matt Lewis?

  Tell the Normans about the Welsh.

• 50:46Eleanor Janega?

  I know, right? Like it's, it's one of these things where it's very, very difficult to just take over people like that. The Czechs know the lay of the land. Basically all Czechs are on board with this. So it's just incredibly difficult to get a toe hold in.

• 51:00Matt Lewis?

  And there's some pretty novel military tactics going on as well, isn't there?

• 51:03Eleanor Janega?

  Ah, the Wagenberg. We love the Wagenberg and everybody loves the Wagenberg. Like, okay, so this is this novel Hussite invention wherein they will take baggage carts, right? So very lowly, right? Like knights don't ride in baggage carts. We know this from, you know, the, the knight of the cart and things like that. And they will hook them together on a bit of an angle by their axles. And then this gives the Hussites a place to hide behind. And they have guns, right? So this is one of the first military conflicts in the Middle Ages that involves a lot of firearms. Firearms, still, it takes eight million years to load one of them. And so what will happen is they get behind their little wagons and they will shoot at Sigismund's troops when Sigismund's troops are attacking

• 51:48Eleanor Janega?

  them on horses. And they'll just sit there and they'll just do that all day until eventually the troops just get really annoyed and they charge. When they do that, everyone then comes out from behind the wagons, attacks them all really, really quickly. Usually there are fewer horses at this point in time. They attack them all, they kill them all. And then there is a specific team who unhooks all the wagons and then they just leave. They just run. And it is completely impossible for old school cavalry to figure this out. I'm at a point in time Sigismund tries to copy it, but it turns out it takes a lot of practice to do it. And so that's just a general failure. And there's a lot of hand wringing.

• 52:29Eleanor Janega?

  They're like, oh, it's so dishonorable. And so you can see that they're just farmers. And actually the Hussites will end up adopting as one of their symbols, the agricultural flail, which is one of the weapons that they are using against the armies because they're like, yeah, well, I'm just a peasant and I will beat you with this flail. And guess what? I'm winning, right?

• 52:51Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. Yeah, we are farmers. Good luck.

• 52:53Eleanor Janega?

  All right. Why be mad, I guess, right?

• 52:55Matt Lewis?

  And I guess we ought to just mention as well, Jan Ziska. I mean, how important is he to the Hussite movement?

• 53:00Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, one of my best friends, Jan Ziska. Absolutely incredibly important. And he's one of these people where, you know, we don't like great man history, but he is the one who comes up with the Wagenberg technique. He is the one that kind of really says, well, yeah, we can't defeat these guys in pitched battle in the traditional medieval way. So we have to come up with other techniques in order to face these people because it can't just be head on. So we're gonna get tricky with it. We're going to do these incredibly difficult military maneuvers. And he becomes like one of those real symbols, right? He's one of those people that you can rally behind. And he is still one of these huge Czech national

• 53:41Eleanor Janega?

  heroes. There's a whole neighborhood in Prague, Ziska, named after him with a big old equestrian statue of him on top of it. It's great. Gotta go see the Jan Ziska statue.

• 53:48Matt Lewis?

  And this is one of those fantastic stories where, you know, the little guy is overwhelming the huge might of the Holy Roman Empire. It's kind of exposing how difficult it is for a huge machine like the, the empire to control these small pockets that spring up everywhere. Is there, is there kind of a turning point in the Hussite wars?

• 54:09Eleanor Janega?

  Well, I mean, there are a couple of them. I would say one is that there is some fracturing within the Hussite communities. Now, at a point in time, the Prague Hussites are like, no, we're good. We just wanted the wine. Like, I don't know. And the Taborites are like, nope, gonna kill them all. You know, like, that is absolutely what's going to happen, right? So we do have to contend with the fact that the Utriquists do turn on the Taborites. So in 1431, we have the Battle of Lipani. And the Utriquists are like, actually, where was Sigismund? Cause Sigismund promised that we could have the wine, right? And that's all we ever really wanted. And Taborites are like, guys, I thought that we were fighting for a fairer world. And the Prague contingent are like, no.

• 54:54Matt Lewis?

  Just the wine.

• 54:55Eleanor Janega?

  I don't, I don't really care about that, you know, right? And, and, you know, they do, to be fair to the Utriquists, I'm not trying to be a jerk, you know, they did kind of get out of Sigismund some concessions. Like they say, okay, well, the Czechs are gonna have greater autonomy. I'm not going to be up in your face all of the time. And we are going to try to limit the role of church life for people. But fundamentally, it is still a capitulation from the Taborites who are like, you know, no gods, no masters, essentially going on over there. So what does end up happening though, ultimately, is that we find out that the Holy Roman Empire can't deal with this, right? All of these

• 55:40Eleanor Janega?

  crusades are called against the Hussites and they lose and they lose and they lose and they lose and they lose. And it's kind of an emperor's new clothes thing, except it's the emperor's new army, right? It's like, oh, huh. So you can't even like quell rebellion in your own lands. And you're supposed to be the defender of Christendom? You're the defender of the Catholic Church on earth. Interesting, right? Because it seems like there's these heretics who are running rings around you, right? And in 1437, Sigismund dies and

• 56:12Eleanor Janega?

  This is a Hussite kingdom now, babe.

• 56:14Matt Lewis?

  Ooh, Hussite kingdom.

• 56:15Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, like, I mean, just 100%, right?

• 56:18Matt Lewis?

  So how, from there then, we've got a Hussite kingdom. How do the Hussite wars end? Do they win?

• 56:24Eleanor Janega?

  They do. They do. They honestly do. They win this stuff. And basically, what ends up happening is that the empire runs out of puff. The Habsburgs are like, I'm not dealing with all that, right? So the Luxembourg dynasty fails. The Habsburgs take over. They are busy working on their chins. They don't have time for these rebellious checks. And they're like, look, if we keep fighting these wars, clearly we're going to keep winning. And also, we're losing the taxation base, right? So we're spending money and we're not getting any money back. Now, there are still disagreements, right? The papacy intentionally keeps trying to be like, I think that you were supposed to be listening to them. And they're like, we just had a series of wars about this, right?

• 57:05Eleanor Janega?

  But like, in 1462, for example, Pope Pius II is like, well, the lady don't get to have any bread and wine. And the Utraquists are like, I am so tired, right? You know? This leads to another war. You have George of Podiradi. He is the Bohemian king at this point in time. And he's also a Hussite. And he's like, look, I will fight about this some more. He goes up against the king of Hungary, who is Matthias Korvenes. And this results in the Bohemian Hungarian War of 1468. This goes on for 10 years, right?

• 57:41Eleanor Janega?

  By 1512, everyone gives up. And they're like, fine, you're Hussites. I get it, right? Like, you are Catholic, you're a Hussite, you could both have communion, however we want, we can't be dealing with this anymore, right? So they will keep fighting it. But for all intents and purposes, you have this giant swathe of time before they give in, where it's happening anyway. It's like, okay, cool. Like, it's nice that you gave up, but it was happening, right? So this is a fully non-Catholic kingdom in the heart of Europe that everyone acknowledged had happened by 1512. And I cannot stress how much these people are not Catholics.

• 58:24Eleanor Janega?

  They have their whole own religious identity and they won a bunch of wars about it. And still, we just pretend it didn't happen, right?

• 58:32Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And I mean, we've, we've got criticism of the clergy, attacks on monasteries, preaching in the vernacular, translating texts to the vernacular. All of this sounds an awful lot like what we talk about as the Reformation of the 16th century coming much later. Isn't this just the Reformation?

• 58:50Eleanor Janega?

  I would say yes. And most scholars of this area would say, yeah, absolutely true. We tend to look at, of course, Martin Luther as being the guy who kicked it all up. But he is just cribbing Jan Hus's notes. Now, he does believe things that the Utraquists don't. He does have some things that are more in common with the Taborites, but then some less so, because, for example, he hates peasants, right? You know, we definitely see his tract against the marauding hordes of peasants. And Taborites are like, we are the marauding hordes, mister, right? So like, there are differentiations in there. But what are you supposed to call an entire religious movement that has done all these things, that is no longer Catholic? Like, why are we not keeping that in? And, look, it's a difficult historiography, right?

• 59:36Eleanor Janega?

  In the late 19th and early 20th century, we have this thing in the Czech lands called the Národní obrožení, which is easy for you to say. But it means the Czech National Revival. And it's the big thing that kind of everyone was doing at the time, where they're like, we want to look to the past, we want to look to history to explain how we as a nation exist now. And at the time, the Czechs and Slovaks who were in it together were trying to advocate for being their own country. And they didn't want to be in the Austro-Hungarian Empire anymore. So they got really in to the Hussites because they're like, yeah, sticking it to the empire. We don't want to be with you. And we're doing our own thing. And then when we have the communists take over, they latch on to the same thing.

• 1:00:20Eleanor Janega?

  And they say, oh, see, there is this Czech spirit that always wants to overthrow outside influence. And we have this great desire for community and we don't like hierarchy. So when you read works about this, you do kind of have to comb through all of that. And I think that also, you know, you can understand why people did that. But it's one of the things that makes outsiders think that learning about the Hussites isn't for them, I think, where they're like, oh, I don't know, some Czechs are doing something, right? And in this current moment, in our modern world, we don't consider Czech to be very important. And so people just go, oh, well, you don't have to pay attention to it, right? Whereas, maybe the Hussites are for everyone. Like, this is, it's a really interesting history.

• 1:01:05Eleanor Janega?

  And if you're interested in heresy, if you're interested in war, if you're interested in battle, if you're interested in politics, it's got it all, right? And, you know, it's much more fun to speak Czech than it is to speak German. We're just, but I promise you, like, I'm writing about it in English. A lot of people are writing about it in English. You can, you can get this stuff without having to learn Czech, though you should.

• 1:01:27Matt Lewis?

  Fair. And it means that we can say that the Reformation isn't an early modern phenomenon. It's actually a medieval thing. I mean, to some extent, Martin Luther is viewed as the successor to Huss of completing Huss's work and Huss is building on Wycliffe's work. So it's a 14th century movement that is a Reformation that, that kind of culminates maybe in the 16th century. And I just wanted to end by saying, you know, you've done a really good sales pitch on the Hussites.

• 1:01:53Eleanor Janega?

  Thank you.

• 1:01:54Matt Lewis?

  Clearly, you care about the Hussites today. Is that a club of one? Do people really care about the Hussites today?

• 1:02:00Eleanor Janega?

  People do. I mean, to the point that in 1999, Pope John Paul II expressed deep regret for the cruel death inflicted on Huss and said that he had deep sorrow over it and that Huss had a great moral courage, which I think we can all agree on. So even the Catholics are like, that was our bad. Turns out, turns out, that guy was pretty okay. And it is certainly something that Czechs are in, are very interested in. And there, there's quite a lot of us. But also, I think it is one for the military enthusiasts and increasingly video game enthusiasts, because there is the whole video game, A Kingdom Come Deliverance, that is set in this era. Stop asking if I know about it.

• 1:02:44Eleanor Janega?

  Obviously, I know about it. Obviously, I play it in Czech. It's fine. It's fine, all right? So it's really exciting for me because it is a wonderful time, if you find this interesting, to learn more about it, because more and more is being written in English. I swear, you don't even have to learn German in order to get into it.

• 1:03:02Matt Lewis?

  You've sold me on the Hussites. That was a fantastic pitch. Hopefully, there are now lots of people who are going to go and find out more about Jan Hus and the Hussite wars. Fantastic. Thank you so much, Eleanor.

• 1:03:12Eleanor Janega?

  Thank you, Matt. I really appreciate you letting me rant.

• 1:03:15Matt Lewis?

  Right. I think that's about it for today. My dungeon jailer is calling me. I think it's time for a little bit more gruel. Thank you for joining us today on Gone Medieval from History Hit. Eleanor and I will be back next week. But in the meantime, if you're hungry for more, why not become a subscriber to History Hit? As a subscriber, you can enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original TV documentaries, including mine and Eleanor's recent series, The Rise of the Plantagenets, plus early access to ad-free podcasts. You can sign up at historyhit.com/subscribe. You can follow Gone Medieval on Spotify and Apple, where you can leave us comments and suggestions, or find us wherever you get your podcasts. And tell all of your friends and family that you've gone medieval.

• 1:04:01Matt Lewis?

  Until next time.

• 1:04:06Speaker 02

  Hey, it's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast. As businesses scale, success depends on how well knowledge is captured, shared, and kept up to date. Camtasia Pro turns teams' expertise into engaging training, onboarding, and documentation. No professional editing experience required. With the industry's best screen recording, video editing, and AI-powered workflows, you can train faster and boost operational efficiency. Get over $100 off your first year at camtasiapro.com and start building a smarter way to educate customers, onboard employees, and ensure valuable expertise is shared across teams.

• 1:04:39Speaker 03

  In Our Time is a world-class seminar every week. Why was Jeremy a lonely snail? What were lines doing in York in the 3rd century? I'm Misha Glennie, and every week I'm joined by expert guests to explore the ideas that shape our world.

• 1:04:55Speaker 04

  It's one of the first times, really, that you consistently see someone painting teeth. I know that sounds bonkers.

• 1:04:59Speaker 07

  If I was going to define mathematics, I would say it's the study of structure.

• 1:05:03Speaker 03

  In Our Time, listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Tea or coffee? Love a cup of tea.