Robert the Bruce

Was King Robert the Bruce a true Scottish freedom fighter or a ruthless, self-interested politician? Matt Lewis and Dr. Eleanor Janega are getting stuck into the riotous, bloody history of the legendary Scottish king, from constant backstabbing and the murder of his rivals, to the stunning underdog victory at the Battle of Bannockburn, they explore how Robert the Bruce finally secured Scottish independence. MORE William Wallace, Scottish Rebel Listen on Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/william-wallace-scottish-rebel/id1564113746?i=1000724733569 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/1lwsHgq9gA1psiEausz7lu King Edward I: Hammer of the Scots Listen on Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/king-edward-i-hammer-of-the-scots/id1564113746?i=1000723575073 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/6XQhcy5RkBiN2KRl7bKHoG Gone Medieval is now on YouTube! Watch here https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTTlBi6H0ic4MMK8PCrW_oA: @GoneMedievalPodcast https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTTlBi6H0ic4MMK8PCrW_oA Gone Medieval is presented by Matt Lewis and Dr. Eleanor Janega. The studio manager is Hanif Hussain. The researcher is Dr. Florence H R Scott. Video producer is McKenna Fernandez. Edited by Amy Haddow, channel manager is Vilde Oksnes. Production Manager is Beth Donaldson. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff. All music used is courtesy of Epidemic Sounds. Gone Medieval is a History Hit podcast History Hit is part of Little Dot Studios, a Certified B Corp™ Watch Matt and Eleanor's film The Ascent to Power: Eleanor of Aquitaine and Henry II now on History Hit TV. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week, PLUS early access, ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Matt Lewis?

  From long-lost Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places, to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr. Eleanor Janiger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life only on History Hit. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand new release every week exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.

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• 2:20Eleanor Janega?

  He is remembered as the legendary Scottish king who famously crushed the English at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314. His miraculous triumph ended an agonizing 18-year war and finally secured Scottish independence. But the real story of Robert the Bruce is a masterclass in ruthless flip-flopping and shifting allegiances. He hunted down William Wallace for the English and repeatedly betrayed his own allies. That's not the behavior of a true Scottish hero. Welcome to Gone Medieval. I'm Dr. Eleanor Janiger.

• 2:58Matt Lewis?

  And I'm William Wallace. No, I'm Matt Lewis.

• 3:03Eleanor Janega?

  Today, we're asking, how did a man who constantly changed sides to serve his own interests become this enduring emblem of a nation's freedom? Was King Robert truly a committed freedom fighter or just a fiercely pragmatic politician who played the ultimate Game of Thrones and won?

• 3:40Matt Lewis?

  Robert the Bruce is a Scottish legend. You know, he is a heroic figure around at the time of the Scottish Wars of Independence, the man who will make the case for Scotland to be an independent kingdom against the aggression of the English king Edward I, who is doing everything that he can to try and conquer this kingdom. And I think in many people's minds, the reason that Scotland remains an independent kingdom for as long as it does. And I mean, ultimately, it's the Scots who become kings of England rather than the other way around. So I think he is a genuine legend. But in that, in being a genuine legend, you have this danger of flowering his story a little bit, of making it seem like he was always destined to achieve these things. And the truth is never quite that simple, is it?

• 4:25Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, yeah, this is going to be an all-timer for us, saying it's more complicated than that. It's like, oh, which all historians like to say, but I think it is true. He's got this legendary aura around him. If you know two names from Scotland in the medieval period, it's usually Robert the Bruce and William Wallace, right?

• 4:43Matt Lewis?

  And it probably wasn't even William Wallace until Braveheart.

• 4:47Eleanor Janega?

  Let's be real, yeah.

• 4:47Matt Lewis?

  Really made William Wallace a household name. Before that, it was probably really just Robert the Bruce.

• 4:53Eleanor Janega?

  I mean, when you got a name like Robert the Bruce, though, come on.

• 4:56Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. I mean, he's a significant figure. He was born 1274. He's descended from King David I of Scotland in a cadet line, so he does have a connection to the royal throne. And his grandfather at the time of his birth is a really significant nobleman in Scotland, the Lord of Annandale. And they're a powerful family. So he's born into authority. We don't know too much about his childhood because he's a little bit of a nobody despite his rank.

• 5:24Eleanor Janega?

  Normal, yeah.

• 5:25Matt Lewis?

  But I think we can assume, particularly from his later performance in life, that he is given a really good education. He's clearly an intelligent man. He's clearly skilled in military affairs. He's clearly taught all of the things that you would expect a medieval nobleman to be taught.

• 5:42Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, and there is certainly cultural signifiers that he has. And I think that this is a crucial piece of information because there is a tendency to look at Scotland as though it is particularly isolated or quite different to the rest of the European milieu, I suppose. And I don't think that that is entirely fair. And I think that it really is shown when we look at members of the nobility. They are very much in communication with the continent. They have understandings about what it takes to be a member of the nobility or indeed to prosecute a case for the royalty. And very, very clearly, in the person of Robert the Bruce, that comes out.

• 6:26Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, and you do see Scottish nobility at this time looking for good European examples of what projecting power looks like, what being a nobleman looks like. And they're trying to draw all of that in to influence the way that they're behaving. So they're aware that they need to project this kind of status. And so Robert must have been raised in that kind of atmosphere with those kind of expectations around him. But ultimately, you know, Scotland will descend into trouble and be torn apart with the death of Alexander III in 1286. And this causes a succession crisis because Alexander doesn't have any children.

• 7:00Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, which is always a rookie mistake. Really, the number one thing that kings are supposed to do is have children. You have one job, you have to have children, right? And I mean, to be fair, there is sort of an heir, which is a granddaughter who is Margaret. And poor Margaret, she's the daughter of the King of Norway. And this is a very traditional way that Scotland looks. You know, Scotland is quite hooked in to the northern world still. You know, England has really re-triangulated towards France since the Norman conquest. Scotland, they're like, yeah, no, we're still kind of like Norwegian people, right? You know, which is fair enough, I think.

• 7:41Matt Lewis?

  And there's kind of, I mean, in that one description of Margaret there, there are a number of issues you can highlight. She's a grand...

• 7:49Eleanor Janega?

  Daughter.

• 7:49Matt Lewis?

  Daughter.

• 7:52Matt Lewis?

  So she's, you know, a couple of generations away. She's young still. She's maybe seven or eight years old when her granddad dies. She's a girl. At a time when that's quite often a problem. Although the Scots are quite willing to recognize Margaret as the legitimate heir to the throne. But the third problem is that she's in Norway.

• 8:10Eleanor Janega?

  She, yeah, yeah. So she's, they're like, hmm, well, she does seem to be some kind of Norwegian, right? Which is fair enough. Like, listen, sometimes you just got to go digging in the closet to find some heirs, right? And if we must send to Norway for some, we will. But what we see when we have this sickly young girl who is put forward as the heir is we have to have some people who are going to do the ruling around here. Because there has to be enough time to season someone, right? So it's at this point in time that we have the Guardians of Scotland.

• 8:43Matt Lewis?

  Which is a cool title.

• 8:44Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, very, very good. I mean, like, make a movie about that.

• 8:46Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, that's a comic book series.

• 8:48Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, amazing, right? So, you know, we have these people who are supposed to be steady hands on the tiller until Margaret comes of age and takes her rightful place on the throne.

• 8:58Matt Lewis?

  But we will ultimately get a problem, a tragic problem in which Margaret doesn't survive the journey from Norway to Scotland.

• 9:06Eleanor Janega?

  Poor little mate.

• 9:06Matt Lewis?

  And this poor child. Dies on board ship during that journey. So where Scotland thought it it might be having a bit of a problematic time, but it was something they could deal with and they could solve, they're now plunged back into the midst of another crisis because that was kind of the last real option for an heir that they had. And now poor little Margaret is gone as well.

• 9:29Eleanor Janega?

  And there's an issue here, right? Because one of the primary guardians, and they're like, look, look, now we have a queen, everybody's got to just wait, is very unfortunately also the King of England, Edward the First, because he was Alexander III's brother-in-law.

• 9:49Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. So I mean, Edward's father, Henry III, has fostered this incredible period of peace with Scotland. His daughter marries Alexander III, the King of Scotland, and they have this incredible relationship. There's a moment where the Scottish barons imprison Alexander and his wife. And Henry III, you know, normally a pretty placid, easygoing kind of guy, raises an army and marches to the Scottish border and says, you let them go, or I'm coming in. And they let them go.

• 10:16Eleanor Janega?

  Which, fair enough, you know, you would, right?

• 10:18Matt Lewis?

  But you do see throughout Henry's 56 year reign, an astonishing amount of peace between England and Scotland, where there has previously been lots and lots of tension. But Edward the First, I think, has an eye to this, this old lingering notion, going into the archives again, digging out these documents that will prove that the English king ought to be the overlord of Scotland. And what this succession crisis in the wake of Margaret's death does is cause all of the Scottish nobility to to be really cautious about their own positions. Do they have the power to be ruling the kingdom on behalf of someone? Who's going to pick a king? How do you go about that? And who's going to put themselves forward for it? And so they they go to Edward and say, you know, you're a king on our borders. Can you help us?

• 11:04Eleanor Janega?

  Hey, you might know a thing about how we pick kings. Like, what are your thoughts? And Edward's like, yeah.

• 11:10Matt Lewis?

  Because I think they're looking at Edward as someone who has the authority to do this. And they're probably imagining he'll come in and go, well, I think it should be this guy. And then he'll go home.

• 11:21Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, they're wanting him as a tiebreaker, which is very sweet of them. And I mean, Edward had already had his sights on the crown, because basically, even when Margaret was supposed to be the heir, he was like, brilliant, I am going to marry her to my son. We are going to unite the realms in this way. So there was already a plan forming for him to eventually have England get hold of Scotland. And now with Margaret gone, and with the nobility of Scotland saying that he's some kind of arbiter, he's like, you know, listen, shoot me down if you think that this is, that this is silly. But, you know, just blue sky thinking, just spitballing here. Me?

• 12:03Matt Lewis?

  More?

• 12:03Eleanor Janega?

  What about this? What about this? He's probably doing it, like, certainly. And so this means that in Scotland, then we have the rise of this thing that we call the Great Cause.

• 12:14Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And this is essentially where Edward will go in and say, anyone who thinks they have a claim to the Scots throne, put it forward, I'll judge this cause. But I'm expecting whoever wins to swear fealty to me as ultimate overlord of Scotland. So he's kind of setting, if you're not going to do it, don't even bother putting your name in the hat.

• 12:33Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, because listen, I am the one taking the names out of the hat. It's my hat in the first place. So, you know, you have to say that I am actually the boss of you, right? Which famously, kings usually don't like, to be fair, right? But this is where we start getting this inkling from the line that has Robert the Bruce, because his grandfather, who's Robert the Fifth, the Lord of Annadale, shows up and is like, hey, what's up?

• 13:00Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 13:00Eleanor Janega?

  It's me. It's Robert.

• 13:02Matt Lewis?

  Somewhere I'm descended from King David.

• 13:04Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, I mean, like, why not? Why not? Right? So why don't you throw my name in there? And, you know, he's got a claim. So that this is kind of like what starts it off, right? This is what starts it.

• 13:15Matt Lewis?

  And yeah, this is the Robert the Bruce's grandfather. And he's his main rival is a man named John Balian, who can also claim descent from David the First. Everyone is out with the family tree. They're on ancestry.com and they're like, how far back do I have to go?

• 13:30Eleanor Janega?

  I think they'll find, yeah.

• 13:31Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And Edward seems, Edward judges these these runners. And essentially, he settles on John Balian, because I think he picks him as the most pliable person, the one he thinks he can bully the easiest, the one who is is most keen to swear fealty to Edward and recognize him as overlord. And so Edward is like, on careful consideration of all aspects of this debate.

• 13:55Eleanor Janega?

  I think.

• 13:56Matt Lewis?

  I think it's this guy who likes me the best.

• 13:58Eleanor Janega?

  And I mean, listen, this is one of the most medieval stories that there is. This is also how early Roman emperors are found, is that the Pope kind of digs around and says, who's going to be nicest to me?

• 14:09Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 14:10Eleanor Janega?

  You know, and then you try to get them on the throne. Now, it never ends up like they want it to. But if you're saying that someone is the arbiter, if there's someone who is going to be handing out the crowns, they are always going to pick whoever is the best fit for them. And for Edward, that fundamentally is John.

• 14:26Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, absolutely. And Edward then immediately starts to treat King John and Scotland as a vassal. Edward wants to go to war with France. And he wants to press claims in Gascogne and all of this kind of thing. And so he says to the Scots, well, you know, you guys work for me now. So raise an army and come and fight for me in Scotland.

• 14:48Eleanor Janega?

  And poor John is like, babe, with what money? Right? Like, listen, we are just like, we just got it together to have a new king. There's been this crisis of succession. Taxation hasn't been flowing in the way that it ought to as a result of that, because everything was really loosey goosey, at the very least. So they can't really raise an army. It's an absolutely bizarre expectation. And also, from John's point of view, there has been this crisis of who's going to be the king. The last thing he wants to do is then leave the realm.

• 15:20Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 15:20Eleanor Janega?

  Right?

• 15:21Matt Lewis?

  And also have to, you know, he becomes king in 1292. He's then got to try and convince the entire Scots nation that they're subservient to England, because he's the king. So it's his fault that they're in this position. And now they've all got to go travel across England into Europe and fight a war on behalf of a man who isn't their king. And they don't really have any stake in the the cause or anything, because John has made this deal with the devil. So John is having to admit the cock up that he's made in order to try and convince them to go. And so John is kind of quite keen to say, I don't want to.

• 15:59Eleanor Janega?

  And John does what I would do. I mean, John is so real for this. John immediately is like, dear Mr. King Philip IV, can I just shock you? I think you are so nice. And do you want to be friends? Yes, no. Right? So he immediately just goes to France and says, listen, I'm gonna, I will level with you. Edward is trying to get us to attack you. I'd rather not, personally. And it seems like you have a lot of money and power, right? Which Philip does, you know, Philip the Philip IV is like a pretty effective king of France fundamentally. And so this is what sparks what we will eventually call the Old Alliance.

• 16:41Eleanor Janega?

  So it's this this thing where both Scotland and France are like, well, listen, now England are stuck between us.

• 16:48Matt Lewis?

  And I also think for someone who is considered to be a just a useless, ineffective puppet of a king, this is something really significant that John Balian does, because he connects Scotland to France, the most powerful kingdom in all of Europe, you know, bypassing England. But he ends up creating this treaty that works both ways. You know, if England attack France, Scotland will go and fight for them. But also, if England attacks Scotland, the French are supposed to come and fight for them as well. So he's getting in bed with the most powerful kingdom in Europe. This is a huge moment of prestige for Scotland that someone who is in other ways rubbish.

• 17:30Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah.

• 17:30Matt Lewis?

  It's a significant legacy of his short reign.

• 17:33Eleanor Janega?

  It was very smart, I think. And I mean, unfortunately, what ends up happening as a result of this, it's also very smart on Phil the Fourth part, because suddenly Edward is not invading France. Edward is invading Scotland.

• 17:46Matt Lewis?

  Well, for France, forever, this will be a reason to, you know, hit England in the back while they're looking across the channel and remind them they've got something else to go and do. And you'll so often see Scottish aggression becoming a forerunner to problems with France. Or if the England are thinking of invading France, the Scots will just say, would you mind just raiding over the border lightly and distracting them?

• 18:05Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah. And it works. It works a treat. So basically, Edward has to completely shift his gaze northward.

• 18:12Matt Lewis?

  Which he's chuffed about. I mean, Edward loves having his plans wrecked.

• 18:15Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, yeah. He's a really chill guy. He's a real go with the flow kind of person, you know, just take it as it comes. Yeah.

• 18:21Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. He surfs his way up the coast of England.

• 18:25Eleanor Janega?

  Exactly. Right.

• 18:26Matt Lewis?

  Really chilled out.

• 18:27Eleanor Janega?

  So it's like, by 1296, Edward is establishing basically his own court in Scotland. And he is 100% attempting to take over the country, which is wild, because it's been almost 80 years since the English were attacking Scotland. There had been a significant peace.

• 18:46Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, everyone has got used to that peace that Henry III had bought, that that close family connection between the two kingdoms, meaning they didn't go to war. It doesn't always protect from that in the medieval period, but here it really has. And everyone has got used to decades and decades and decades of peaceful and and positive relationships between England and Scotland that is now in the bin. You know, Edward the First is essentially saying, well, if you if you won't do what I say as your overlord, I'm just going to come in and take over completely. I'm going to set up a government. And the year after he sets up at Berwick in 1297, he essentially just deposes John Balian. He takes all of the the trappings of Scottish kingship and moves them down to the Tower of London, imprisons John Balian there, and says, well.

• 19:29Eleanor Janega?

  What are you going to do about it?

• 19:30Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, you don't get a king anymore. I'll just be the king.

• 19:32Eleanor Janega?

  And that would probably be the end of it. But the trouble is, Scottish people like saw through his cutting plan, right? It's one of these things where they're like, look, we probably would have gone with John Balian as king and been like, yeah, that's fine, had.

• 19:51Eleanor Janega?

  Edward then allowed him to actually run things like a king and, you know, it could have been more significant, but it was clear that this was a puppet. When he tries to, he plays his one card, which is a good card, you know, and that doesn't work out. And so the Scottish people are like, yeah, screw it.

• 20:06Matt Lewis?

  And it's weird because Edward, you know, Edward is still in a place where he's having to do fealty for Gascany to the King of France. And he wouldn't stand for the King of France demanding an army from him to go and fight in Italy or something.

• 20:17Eleanor Janega?

  No.

• 20:17Matt Lewis?

  He just wouldn't do it.

• 20:18Eleanor Janega?

  No.

• 20:18Matt Lewis?

  So it seems like a step too far. He's just pushing too hard against the Scottish Crown. Instead of letting this bed in and just reinforcing that theoretical tie, he's determined to make it tangible and real. And that breaks it effectively. But one of the interesting things we have at this point as well, when John Baileal is deposed, is that the Robert the Bruce who had put his hat in the ring to be king is now dead, but his son and his grandson, so his grandson, the Robert the Bruce that we're talking about, are fighting for Edward. They're on Edward's side to depose John Baileal. They're clearly more interested in the fact that Baileal was their rival than that Edward is trying to take over Scotland.

• 20:54Eleanor Janega?

  Which is interesting because I think this is incredibly telling. But that lets you know exactly what is going on in the hands of the Scottish nobility at this point in time. They don't necessarily think it's a bad thing for the English Crown to get involved, provided it clears the way for them. So they're playing the long game. You know, this is, this is 100% about what happens two or three moves down the line, right? This is the sort of thing that we will see, for example, all the time. If you go down to the Iberian Peninsula, this is how they're playing that game, right?

• 21:28Matt Lewis?

  Absolutely. This is one of the things I think Braveheart the film does really, really well, that you see Bruce, and I think it's supposed to be his grandfather, or maybe it's his father that's there, I don't know. But you see the older Bruce being like, just wait, just play the game until it's turned in your favour. And you kind of see the young Robert the Bruce kind of straining against that, but his dad just saying, no, no, no, just wait. And that's exactly what the Bruces are doing here. They're in Edward's camp for as long as it suits them to be in Edward's camp.

• 21:57Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah. And I mean, to be fair, the trouble is that whilst the Bruces are locked in, they're, they're keeping their powder dry, very smart thing to do. A lot of other members of the Scottish nobility feel a type of way.

• 22:12Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 22:12Eleanor Janega?

  About this, right? Because it's all well and good if you are theoretically in the ascendancy and you see yourself as maybe being able to make a play for it all. But other members of the Scottish nobility here are like, literally, who is this English guy?

• 22:25Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 22:25Eleanor Janega?

  Right? I mean, like even setting up in Barrack, it's like, cute. I mean, that's kind of England a little bit.

• 22:33Matt Lewis?

  Edward has destroyed all of the symbols of Scottish kingship. The most famous one that we associate with Scottish kingship, the Stone of Scone, the Stone of Destiny of Scotland, that Scottish kings have been crowned on probably for a few decades, but in the Scottish mind for centuries, and since forever, forever.

• 22:51Eleanor Janega?

  Forever. It was down there in the exact same place that they were keeping the roles of who gets to inherit. Yeah.

• 22:57Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, absolutely. And so Edward has, you know, takes that away in, what, 1296? It's not returned to Scotland until 1996, for crying out loud. Although we borrowed it back for Charles's coronation most recently, so thank you, Scotland. Sticking with, with tradition at least.

• 23:12Eleanor Janega?

  Absolutely.

• 23:12Matt Lewis?

  All in favour of that as a medieval historian. But it's striking as well that. So this is a period that we will associate particularly closely with William Wallace. And he does emerge during this period, but he's kind of playing second fiddle to a man named Andrew Moray to begin with.

• 23:29Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, because what is really happening here is we're just seeing a generalised noble uprising. I mean, now we call this the Scottish Wars of Independence, right? But the nobles getting kind of cranky and rising up, that's not necessarily anything new, right? That this is something that can happen from time to time. And we do see, you know, William Wallace is an incredibly minor figure before this. It just so happens that he tends to be pretty good on the battlefield, right? You know, and this is why we don't know anything about him.

• 23:58Matt Lewis?

  Well, that's it. So he seems to come from nowhere. Andrew Moray has a bit more of a pedigree about him. He's kind of a knightly rank, seems to be the one who's organising the armies into rebellion. And 1297, we get the famous epic Battle of Stirling Bridge.

• 24:15Eleanor Janega?

  It's a good one.

• 24:16Matt Lewis?

  But it's Andrew Moray's victory, not William Wallace's really. He's the mastermind behind it. Edward I decides to send an army up to reinforce and retake Stirling Castle. And you get this funny circumstance in which the Scots are kind of working out how many Englishmen they can beat that day.

• 24:36Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 24:37Matt Lewis?

  It's like, whatever, 3,000. And they're like, right, one, two, three. So when they got 3,000 men across the bridge, the Scots just pile into them. And the English forces cut in half. They can only get across this narrow bridge very slowly. And it's, it's a bit of tactical genius that sees the Scots defeat this much superior force of the English. And it goes down in legend as this great Scottish victory. And it becomes closely associated with William Wallace, and he's there.

• 25:04Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, obviously.

• 25:04Matt Lewis?

  But really, it's Andrew Moray that's leading that army.

• 25:07Eleanor Janega?

  Well, and we love the Battle of Stirling Bridge. This is one of these iconic battles, you know, it's, it's up there with, you know, Agincourt, which is also a very similar battle tactic. It's like, it's not me if you've heard this one before, but if you could just like funnel them all, it'll help, you know, with, with having a smaller army.

• 25:23Matt Lewis?

  Let me tell you a story about the Spartans.

• 25:24Eleanor Janega?

  Right, exactly. It's just like, it was ever thus, right? And so we have that. And that is like one of these big romantic victories. We always like to talk about it. Thing about that is that Edward I was just like, cute, that's one battle, right? You know, this is, this is a war. And so.

• 25:40Matt Lewis?

  And also, I wasn't there.

• 25:42Eleanor Janega?

  I wasn't even there, right? It's just like, well, you can go ahead and like, beat up the guy I sent. But what happens is that Edward is basically galvanised into action.

• 25:52Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 25:53Eleanor Janega?

  By this, right? So he's riding.

• 25:54Matt Lewis?

  It's just bad news for everybody.

• 25:56Eleanor Janega?

  I mean, so, yeah, basically, he's like, well, I guess I've got to come up there, right? So in 1298, that brings us on to the Battle of Falkirk, which is another one of these big name battles, to be fair.

• 26:04Matt Lewis?

  Absolutely. And a huge reversal for the Scots, you know, if they were reveling in the glory of defeating this English army at Stirling Bridge, Falkirk brings them back down to the ground with a bump, and they lose pretty badly.

• 26:16Eleanor Janega?

  And it is, I think, very important to point out what Robert the Bruce was doing at this time and whose team he was on, because.

• 26:24Matt Lewis?

  He was still very carefully at Edward's side at the Battle of Falkirk. He's still not stepped out of the shadows.

• 26:30Eleanor Janega?

  And that is a very smart thing to do. Because fundamentally, in all of the fallout, Edward is like, look, love this for me. Fantastic to win the Battle of Falkirk. We absolutely think it's fantastic, but I don't want to have to keep coming up here.

• 26:45Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 26:46Eleanor Janega?

  I don't want to have to, every single time things kick off, have to ride up here. I am, again, trying to fight the French, actually. That's what I'm trying to look at. So don't make me come up there. And so as a result, he says, well, I'm going to go and I'm going to put some more guardians in place. And that's what we're going to do, right? And so who is looking like a good person to put on the throne? It's the people who are on the side of Edward.

• 27:13Matt Lewis?

  Absolutely. I mean, you've got, so the guardians are appointed and Robert the Bruce is amongst them, but also one of his main rivals, one of the families that he's most

• 27:23Matt Lewis?

  opposed to, John Common, is another one of the guardians too. You know, he's appointed a guardian in 1298. And in 1302, he's still swearing fealty to Edward.

• 27:33Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah.

• 27:33Matt Lewis?

  As overlord of England. There is a long period in which Robert the Bruce appears to be a good subject to Edward I of England.

• 27:43Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, yeah, he's going to Parliament? He's chasing after William Wallace? I mean, Robert the Bruce is 100% on the wrong side of the Braveheart story, if that's what you want to look at, right? You know, he's, you know, is he able to do much about it? Not necessarily, right? But he, he's doing all of the things that Edward expects him to do.

• 28:01Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, yeah. And in 1304, we get Stirling Castle, which is the kind of the last place holding out for Scottish resistance. That falls the following year, 1305, William Wallace is captured. Still, Robert the Bruce is very much in Edward's camp, while William Wallace is being taken to London and executed as a traitor to a king who he never swore fealty to. And Wallace does become almost instantly this burning symbol of Scottish independence and resistance and resilience. And it feels like kind of at this moment, Robert the Bruce is like, ah, the moment I've been waiting for.

• 28:42Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, because what he does is notices that people are really unhappy with this and the status quo. And he's like, well, you know, who is not Edward the first? It's me. It's your guy. And I've got the correct accent and I'm from here. And I-

• 29:01Matt Lewis?

  Are you gonna do the accent for us?

• 29:02Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, no. My Scottish accent is rubbish. Oh, no. Like, I cancelled it. Eleanor kicked off of Gone Medieval for doing worst Scottish accent of all time. Absolutely not. Can you do one?

• 29:12Matt Lewis?

  I'm not even gonna try.

• 29:13Eleanor Janega?

  All right. Okay, there you go.

• 29:14Matt Lewis?

  I like to think I can, but essentially it boils down to screaming William Wallace like I'm Mel Gibson.

• 29:19Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, there you go. I'm doing a Mel Gibson impression, not an actual Scottish accent. Yeah, that's two different things. Yeah, for sure, for sure. So, yeah, so basically, we now have this pivot though, right? Because, to be fair, Robert's also kind of shown he can do it, right? He's shown that he's been on the council, he's aware of everything that is happening. So, he has been, for better or worse, governing Scotland.

• 29:45Matt Lewis?

  Which is valuable experience, you know, that's really hard to get. It's setting him up nicely for what he wants to do next. And so, he clearly sees that the time is right. And he arranges a meeting with his main rival, John Common, in a church, you know, it's gonna be very friendly.

• 30:03Eleanor Janega?

  See, I love this too, because you're like, he's setting it up really nicely for what he wants to do next, which is murder.

• 30:07Matt Lewis?

  Murder.

• 30:08Eleanor Janega?

  Murder.

• 30:08Matt Lewis?

  There you go. That might be the extent of discussion.

• 30:10Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, listen, that's my, that's my taggart.

• 30:13Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 30:13Eleanor Janega?

  Okay, thank you. Thanks. Yeah, so.

• 30:16Matt Lewis?

  But yeah, he arranges this meeting with John Common, who presumably thinks he's going to a very friendly meeting in a church about what they're gonna do about resisting Edward the first of England now. And Robert the Bruce promptly pulls a knife and stabs him to death and leaves him on the floor of the church.

• 30:30Eleanor Janega?

  My favorite bit about this, though, is that he, like, had a get out of jail free car waiting in the wings, where he's like, oh, hello, Bishop of Glasgow. Um, was it okay that I murdered my rival in a church? And the Bishop of Glasgow is like, absolutely, bro. I didn't see anything. Actually, God loves this. And he thinks it's fine. That's right. Yeah.

• 30:53Matt Lewis?

  So, yeah, he goes, you know, goes and immediately is absolved of this sin, but also crowned King of Scotland.

• 31:01Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, he goes to school. Is there a stone? No. But listen, it's, the vibe is right. You know, that, that is absolutely fine. So, he's got the cultural marker in place that is necessary, right?

• 31:13Matt Lewis?

  And I feel like we all need to just close our eyes and imagine the look on Edward the first's face when he hears the news.

• 31:20Eleanor Janega?

  It's like-

• 31:20Matt Lewis?

  You know, you know, Robert the Bruce, that guy who's on your council, who's backed you, fought for you at Falkirk, backed you for years and years and years, just had himself crowned King of Scotland.

• 31:29Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, and by the way, he did murder the other guardian of Scotland. Yeah, he did. He did do that, right? So, so now Edward's got nobody. He's got absolutely no one on his side up north. And I think this is quite interesting, because it also shows that Edward is completely oblivious to the factual tensions that were brewing. I think that maybe he thought that by putting both Common and Robert the Bruce as like co-guardians, what he was doing was he was using that to his advantage, and he was going to be able to keep them in an equilibrium. But really, Robert the Bruce was just like biding his time so he could stab him.

• 32:07Matt Lewis?

  I think Edward's waiting for them to scrap for supremacy by coming to Edward to beg for his favor, when what Robert the Bruce actually does is shortcut that. Stab the other guy, get yourself crowned.

• 32:18Eleanor Janega?

  To be fair, I would not expect you to just like, fully stab someone to death in a church. I mean, that, that is kind of like above and beyond. Yeah.

• 32:25Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. It's a, it's a move. And Edward, so Edward immediately treats Robert as a traitor. Doesn't recognise him as a king.

• 32:32Eleanor Janega?

  So, to be fair, he is. To be fair, he is. William Wallace is not a traitor. William Wallace didn't swear to anything, right? Robert the Bruce repeatedly swore fealty, and that's a big deal. This is an oath in front of God. These are Christian people. You know, Christian enough that when you stab somebody to death in a church, you do have to have a bishop there to be like, actually, it's fine. Don't worry about it. Is that a weird loophole that doesn't make a lot of sense? Yeah, but he still feels the need to do it, right? And so, he is an oath breaker. He is 100% an oath breaker, which doesn't go down very well.

• 33:04Matt Lewis?

  And I feel like, you know, we're in 1306. Edward the first is an old man. But I still wouldn't want to give him a good cause to go to war with me.

• 33:12Eleanor Janega?

  No.

• 33:13Matt Lewis?

  Still a pretty intense and frightening man. And he, you know, he builds up armies, one of them led by his son, the future Edward the second, who actually has some fairly successful military campaigns in Scotland, which might have looked really promising for the heir to the throne to be doing. Robert is defeated in battle twice. You know, not once, but twice. He's kind of driven into exile on the islands off Scotland.

• 33:37Eleanor Janega?

  His family get kidnapped, which is crazy work, right?

• 33:41Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And I mean, the English, in a mark of extreme cruelty, have many of the female members of Robert's family, his wife and his sisters, hung in cages outside castles for long periods of time, as, you know, a clear display of what happens to you if you oppose Edward the first.

• 34:08Matt Lewis?

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• 35:36Matt Lewis?

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• 38:20Eleanor Janega?

  And by the way, like, just to be clear, that's bonkers work. You're not supposed to go, like, you were not supposed to be treating members of the nobility or members of the royalty like this, full stop, let alone women.

• 38:32Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 38:32Eleanor Janega?

  Like, it is really above and beyond the pale, right?

• 38:36Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. Yeah. I think this is Edward reacting to Robert's oath breaking and his betrayal by saying, well, the rules don't apply anymore then.

• 38:44Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah.

• 38:44Matt Lewis?

  If this is the way you're going to behave, you don't feel bound by the things that sort of restrain you, then neither do I.

• 38:50Eleanor Janega?

  And Robert just has to leave.

• 38:52Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 38:52Eleanor Janega?

  To be fair, like, he's hiding off the coast of Ireland. He's like, never mind, don't, don't worry about it. I was kidding.

• 38:59Matt Lewis?

  But, and this is the, the period where we get this, the famous story of him, you know, wondering how on earth he's going to continue. How does he rebuild from this? He's lost everything. And we get this famous moment where he's watching a spider build its web and the web is blown down, constantly destroyed, and it just starts again and builds a new one. And from this, he draws the inspiration that even at his lowest ebb, he can start again and he can rebuild.

• 39:22Eleanor Janega?

  I love the story. I love a little spider moment. Big fan of their work. I think they're cool little guys. Uh, I mean, it's almost probably like apocryphal, but like, but never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

• 39:34Matt Lewis?

  No, probably Walter Scott, 19th century.

• 39:37Eleanor Janega?

  Listen, it's, it sounds like Scott, but it's fine. I like it.

• 39:40Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 39:40Eleanor Janega?

  It's cute.

• 39:41Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. Well, leave it alone.

• 39:43Eleanor Janega?

  So, I mean, and the thing about it is too, he does do a great job of surveying the scene. And that fundamentally is Robert's real strength.

• 39:51Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 39:52Eleanor Janega?

  Is his ability to understand what is happening politically and play his cards at the right time. Because fundamentally, the next year in 1307, Edward the First coaxed it, right?

• 40:01Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. Well, he's on his way to Scotland for another military campaign.

• 40:03Eleanor Janega?

  And

• 40:04Matt Lewis?

  Which is probably the moment where he thinks, this is where I finally, you know, become the hammer of the Scots.

• 40:10Eleanor Janega?

  Right?

• 40:11Matt Lewis?

  Because it's weird that we remember him as the hammer of the Scots when he never really

• 40:14Eleanor Janega?

  Just like

• 40:15Matt Lewis?

  managed to deliver a fatal blow.

• 40:17Eleanor Janega?

  Light, uh, he's more like a, like the tapper of the Scots, you know, just a little hmm.

• 40:21Matt Lewis?

  The rubber mallet of the Scots doesn't have the same ring to it.

• 40:24Eleanor Janega?

  It doesn't really work, does it? You know?

• 40:26Matt Lewis?

  But yeah, he dies on his way north, so he's succeeded by his son as Edward the Second. And this creates a, a political pullback to London because there is a need to, to establish a new king on the throne, to have a coronation, to deal with all of the problems of the transfer of government and all of those kinds of things, to reassess. And that is exactly the space that Robert needs to, to begin to build again.

• 40:48Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah. And, you know, Edward the Second, look, it's not that he isn't able to fight, he certainly is, but there is a realm to rule, right? Basically, expansion is a nice to, right? It's nice to try to take over Scotland. It's nice to attempt to take more land in France, right? But you have to make sure that everything is shipshape down in England in order to do that. And Edward the Second simply can't. He's got to kind of keep his eyes on his own homework, right? And that gives this breathing space for Robert the Bruce to sort of show back up. And I mean, really, what's Edward gonna do about it?

• 41:23Matt Lewis?

  He can't. His hands are a little bit tied. And I think that Robert knows that and he's using it. And, you know, by a few years later, 1313, he's issuing this decree to all the Scottish nobility that they either declare for him or he's going to go to war against them.

• 41:36Eleanor Janega?

  Which is a really smart move because it's interesting at this point in time because he gets to play on all those sympathies that William Wallace has built up. This idea of Scottishness, this idea of independence, like, just don't, don't think too hard about it. Like, just don't think too hard about where Robert was when all of that was happening. Because are you going to declare for Robert and the idea of Scottishness, the idea of this independence? Or are you going to withhold, which is basically saying that you love Edward the Second?

• 42:09Matt Lewis?

  You love England.

• 42:10Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah. It's just like, that's a, that's a hard road to hoe at this point in time, right?

• 42:15Matt Lewis?

  So he's kind of giving them the, the perfect opportunity to, to give in to his threats. He can make himself look more powerful and give them an easy out of their allegiance to England too. And he spends the next year or so taking back towns and cities and castles from the English and pushing them further and further back. And success breeds loyalty, doesn't it? The, the more success he has in driving the English out, the more the Scots noble, nobility are getting behind him.

• 42:43Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah. It's one thing when it's just a kind of nebulous idea. It's another when he retakes Edinburgh, right? Which is a big deal. Like, that's a lot of money. That's a lot of taxation. That is a really successful port. And if you're holding that, then it's like, oh, this guy actually has what it takes to go all the way, right? And so that means that I think he's got, like, he's got enough going on. He's on a roll, right? Like, he's got, he's got Lothian, he's got Edinburgh. And so he's looking now at Stirling, right? Because Stirling is this real thorn in his side in that it is the major big holdout at this point.

• 43:18Matt Lewis?

  It's kind of, it's kind of the, the barrier between the lowlands and the highlands, isn't it? It's this big, significant, strategic point on the Scottish map. It's like the key to controlling the whole of Scotland. And at the moment, it's still holding out for the English. And so Robert lays siege to it and essentially makes an agreement with the castle's governor that if an English relief force doesn't come by midsummer 1314, 24th of June, then they'll surrender the castle. And so obviously news of that agreement is sent down to London to Edward the Second. And he's got a big crunch moment coming here because do you just passively surrender the whole of Scotland, everything that your dad has worked for? Or are you now going to have to focus your efforts where you haven't so far?

• 44:00Eleanor Janega?

  Listen, a stupid move, actually. Like, you can completely understand what they've done here, right? This is, it's very interesting because to an extent, you're like, why would you even make that agreement? It, it doesn't make sense to us necessarily to say, oh yeah, well, we'll just wait, we'll just wait.

• 44:16Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 44:17Eleanor Janega?

  And see if anybody comes for you. Because you'd say, well, why would you even bother doing that? Well, shouldn't you just be prosecuting it, right? But what it does is it forces Edward the Second to do something.

• 44:25Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 44:26Eleanor Janega?

  And be more decisive about it. It's, because if he doesn't do anything, yeah, great. So you're saying that you've given up on Scotland. Brilliant. Otherwise, you're forcing him to march north and Edward, God bless him, right? You know, like, let's think back, like, what, and what's Edward doing at the time? Uh, making all the nobility mad because he's taking all their land and giving it to his boyfriend, right?

• 44:48Matt Lewis?

  Letting his ghost and give them all nicknames that they don't like.

• 44:50Eleanor Janega?

  And, and it's just like, he is being so rude down at court. And then he's like, all right, guys, remember how I just stole a bunch of your land and gave it to my boyfriend who is also calling you like, making fun of your shoes? Yeah. So who wants to go to Scotland? Right? And, you know, it would have been smarter. I mean, I think you gotta pick one or the other. You're either picking rude boyfriend or war with Scotland. You can't have both, right?

• 45:15Matt Lewis?

  And it's weird that he's let so much go in Scotland and not responded. You feel like, it's, it's almost like Stirling is just this symbolic.

• 45:22Eleanor Janega?

  Hmm.

• 45:23Matt Lewis?

  He doesn't want to admit that he's actually going to give up when actually the smart money might have been to just say, okay, you can have Stirling Castle.

• 45:30Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah. Look, hindsight, right? And, and to be fair, I think he's probably looking at it and saying, well, I mean, the Scottish have been fighting for ages. They're probably a bit run down. The Stirling's a pretty good castle. We're gonna go up there and we're gonna, we're gonna really

• 45:44Matt Lewis?

  Be careful across the bridge.

• 45:45Eleanor Janega?

  Exactly. It's just like, we're just like, don't, don't talk about the bridge, right? And so they end up meeting nowhere near the bridge, right? Like, that's, that's crucial. He's like, I'm not going near that bridge. So it's, to Edward the Second's credit, he did learn a lesson, which is awesome. So they end up down at Bannockburn, which is nearby.

• 46:02Matt Lewis?

  And Edward has raised, you know, between 10 and 15,000 men, something like that. So a significant English force against a, a much smaller Scottish army, a less well-equipped, a less well-trained Scottish army. I mean, it's, it's already sounding like an old story.

• 46:17Eleanor Janega?

  It's every time. Like, anytime we have these battles and we're like, it was legendary. It's like exactly the same setup. It's like, they were vastly outnumbered. They were just regular guys and not people with horses. Um, they have more infantry, you know, it's, this sort of thing. So, yeah, I mean, but on the other hand, it's a good story because it is routing, right?

• 46:38Matt Lewis?

  It is. And, and Bannockburn will become another legendary battle in the formation of a Scottish identity as a key turning point in this Scottish War of Independence that Robert the Bruce is, is still prosecuting at this point. Uh, I mean, the, the English army, you know, they arrive the day before that deadline, 23rd of June, and the, so the Bannockburn, Burn is a little river, the Bannock is the river, so the Bannockburn is just the river Bannock. And they, they ford across this river a little bit and the, the English army is sort of moving its way slowly across and setting up on the other side of the, the stream. When they spot some of the Scots at the tree line, somewhere in the distance of the woods. And Robert the Bruce is there.

• 47:22Eleanor Janega?

  Hmm.

• 47:22Matt Lewis?

  On a tiny little pony, if you please.

• 47:25Eleanor Janega?

  Bless. I love, love a pony moment. Yes.

• 47:28Matt Lewis?

  And so one of the English knights, Henry de Bowen, Bowen Boone? I don't know. I say Bowen.

• 47:32Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah. I say Bowen. Listen.

• 47:34Matt Lewis?

  Um, he spots Robert and thinks, oh, I can, I can solve this problem really quickly. And he spurs his great dextra across the field at Robert's tiny little pony.

• 47:46Matt Lewis?

  And far from frightened, Robert spurs his tiny little pony to charge at this horse as well. I mean, imagine the scene, this huge Destria with an armed armored knight on the back of it and his tiny little pony with Robert.

• 48:00Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, I love it.

• 48:01Matt Lewis?

  But Henry de Bowne swings down this this huge blow as they come to meet. Robert manages to dodge it and swing his axe round behind and catch Henry de Bowne in the head, smashes his head in and kills him and he falls to the ground. And all of a sudden, what Henry de Bowne had been trying to do is create this immediate victory for the English. What he's done instead is give the Scottish a massive morale boost and a huge propaganda coup. They've just killed an English knight and Robert the Bruce himself has done it in a moment of bravery against the odds.

• 48:33Eleanor Janega?

  And basically, all of the nobility are standing on the back lines going, whoa. And it's like, his head is bashing. Like, it's incredibly violent. And you're a bunch of guys who are fighting for a king you don't even like. You know, you were about to take up arms against this guy two seconds ago. And he's like, I don't know, go up there and sort this Robert the Bruce guy out for me. And they're like, what are we doing here? You know, because even if you do win, this is not like a fighting in France. This isn't like, oh, I'm gonna like, get a bunch of cash out of it. You're just doing it because the king is telling you to. And now you've seen that. It's it's a really difficult thing to overcome.

• 49:12Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And the English, I mean, it all goes downhill from here. They spend the rest of the first day trying to get across the river while the Scots are like, we just might attack you. So they end up setting themselves up in a really terrible position in some marshy land, hemmed in by bits of streams and things. So again, they they can't make the most of their position. They can't use their numbers. And the Scots are doing a great job of kind of of herding them like sheepdog, making sure that they're exactly where they want them to be, where they'll be as disadvantaged as they possibly can be before they go to bed.

• 49:46Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah.

• 49:46Matt Lewis?

  That night.

• 49:47Eleanor Janega?

  And that's the thing. It's so cute. They go to bed. They're like, and we will sort this out in the morning, right? And they're clearly feeling confident enough. They really do have them exactly where they want them. And so it's sort of like day two, which is what we get on to. And it's really interesting, because in the first place, it's weird that Robert the Bruce is there.

• 50:09Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 50:09Eleanor Janega?

  Right? Ordinarily, the kings are kind of like near the back, or if they're at all, you know, the emphasis is ordinarily put on keeping this line of succession intact. A lot of the time, kings are not on the battlefield for smart reasons, right?

• 50:23Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 50:24Eleanor Janega?

  But Robert the Bruce understands what he needs to do in order to make the case for himself as the king of Scotland. And that is, you know, keep this up, right?

• 50:32Matt Lewis?

  I mean, he's seen Edward the First become a great and powerful king through military exploits and personal bravery. And I think it's quite striking when we think of Edward the Second, as we so often do, that he's there as well. You know, he's got his armor on.

• 50:45Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, yeah.

• 50:46Matt Lewis?

  He's come for a fight. We are told that that kind of in the early hours of the morning, the English are trying to work out their battle plan. And Edward manages to call several of his nobles, particularly the Earl of Gloucester, cowards.

• 50:58Eleanor Janega?

  They love that.

• 50:59Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 50:59Eleanor Janega?

  The thing that the nobility really like is if you just like insult them to their face one more time.

• 51:04Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. Think of all of those great motivational speeches through history and Edward's there going, chicken.

• 51:11Eleanor Janega?

  You know, my boyfriend's totally right about you. You do suck. You're just like, what is going on?

• 51:16Matt Lewis?

  Peers would be riding out there and beating them all up. And so we get them line up ready for battle. And I think the English must still be incredibly confident. They're fairly sure they're going to defeat this, what must look to them like a fairly ragtag Scottish army. And the first move of the day is made by the Earl of Gloucester, who has clearly taken that accusation of cowardice to heart. Because he, and it's not clear if he does this before orders are given, but he leads out his vanguard and charges the Scottish forces. And it goes horribly wrong.

• 51:50Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah. Well, and this is the thing, because most people are not ready, right? And but the Scots are, they're ready to rock. They're like, hey, baby, it's done. Like, let's let's get it cracking. And so basically, what that does is it takes the lid off of it. And they're like, okay, yeah, let's go.

• 52:05Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 52:06Eleanor Janega?

  And that splits the charge. So they're they aren't able to deal like a really big death blow. And also, one of the things that this does is it also annihilates the advantage that the longbowman would have, right? Because you can't just start shooting at the Scots because there are some very important English guys down there. So they're now in your way. So they have created massive problems.

• 52:32Matt Lewis?

  A meat shield.

• 52:33Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah.

• 52:33Matt Lewis?

  And then.

• 52:34Eleanor Janega?

  Not a meat shield.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  Hey, it's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast. As businesses scale, success depends on how well knowledge is captured, shared, and kept up to date. Camtasia Pro turns teams' expertise into engaging training, onboarding, and documentation. No professional editing experience required. With the industry's best screen recording, video editing, and AI-powered workflows, you can train faster and boost operational efficiency. Get over $100 off your first year at camtasia.com and start building a smarter way to educate customers, onboard employees, and ensure valuable expertise is shared across teams.

• 53:27Speaker 02

  Whoever said good things come to those who wait, never shopped Black Friday early at Lowe's. Right now, get up to 50% off select major appliances. Plus, get free delivery, free haulaway, and free basic installation and parts when you spend $896 or more on select major appliances. Shop Black Friday early in store and online now at Lowe's. Valid through 12/2 while supplies last. Selection varies by location. See associate at Lowe's.com for details.

• 54:12Matt Lewis?

  But then Robert the Bruce deploys his absolute tactical genius to the utter shock of the the English. The Scots are set up with their, again, think Braveheart, the spears for the cavalry charge. This is what they're used to doing. They stand still in this position. They brace themselves. They raise their spears in these shieldrins. And they defend against the cavalry charge and wait for the wave to subside. But what Robert does is he's obviously been training his men. He's been drilling them. Those shieldrins get up and move. And the English are like, what?

• 54:42Eleanor Janega?

  They're not supposed to do that.

• 54:44Matt Lewis?

  Moving shieldrins? No, no, no, no, no. No, we don't know what to do about this. And they're completely blown away by this. They're completely disoriented. Every time they try a cavalry charge, the shieldrins kind of move around a little bit and are perfectly placed to to deal with them. And then maneuver to a better position on the battlefield. And the English just don't know what to do. The shieldrins are getting closer and closer. And they're increasingly hemmed in against the water at their back and the marshy land at their sides. And they're just stuck.

• 55:12Eleanor Janega?

  And there's nothing you can do. It's difficult to explain how important the marsh is in this case, because it stops movement. If you're wearing a bunch of armor, you could just drown at any moment. The horses can't move through that. So it is essentially just like having a wall there for all intents and purposes. And so as a result of this, they're stuck. And this is when, you know, things start to get really serious. Because the Earl of Gloucester then just dies. RIP, you know, like, very cute that you led this ill-fated charge and messed it up for everyone. But he.

• 55:48Matt Lewis?

  You're not a coward, but.

• 55:49Eleanor Janega?

  But I mean, we can all agree, this man wasn't a coward. We can also probably agree that he wasn't very smart. And this forces Edward the Second to just turn tail and run. He goes to Dunbar Castle because if he gets captured, which is what it's looking like, right? Because where's he supposed to go? Right?

• 56:08Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 56:09Eleanor Janega?

  Then that's it. That's that's the whole game over. And imagine a king's ransom getting paid towards them. That's even worse.

• 56:17Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. I mean, you think of the times when kings are taken captive and the propaganda coup that that is, and the financial windfall that comes with all of that. And Edward's advisors, I mean, the sources do say that Edward is literally having to be physically dragged away. He doesn't want to leave. But all of his advisors are like, we've lost this fight and you cannot get captured. England cannot cope with its king being the prisoner of someone we don't even recognize as King of Scotland.

• 56:44Eleanor Janega?

  I mean, I don't even know that they would have paid to get him out. To be honest, I mean, it's like, Isabella would be like, wow, that's crazy. Anyway, she's like, this is great.

• 56:53Matt Lewis?

  Peers is going around.

• 56:54Eleanor Janega?

  It would be really good. Yeah, it would be really good.

• 56:58Matt Lewis?

  Again, Banatburn, huge, significant, temec victory for the Kingdom of Scotland. England, with all of its greater military might, has been hugely embarrassed. And Robert is just riding high on all of this.

• 57:12Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, yeah. Like, how do you then work propaganda against this, right? Because like, here's this guy who he's willing to be out on the battlefield. He's made a couple of really good kills that everybody saw. You've been embarrassed. His men love him. Yours hate you. And fundamentally, you're also on their land, right? So it's always easier to rally people when it's your own land that is getting fought over, right? So this is very difficult to come back from.

• 57:42Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And, you know, Robert really does consolidate his position after this. They have taken some English hostages they can ransom. And part of that deal is to get his wife and his children and those female members of his family set free. So Robert is now cementing his chivalric credentials. He's rescuing those damsels in distress. He's doing his duty as a husband and a father and as a king. And he's also now.

• 58:09Matt Lewis?

  Powerful enough to say to the Scottish nobility, you know, he said before, swear an oath to me or become my enemy and I'll seize all of your lands. He kind of says it again now.

• 58:18Eleanor Janega?

  Yep.

• 58:19Matt Lewis?

  And I think more of the Scottish nobility realised that he, he means it and he's in a position to do that.

• 58:24Eleanor Janega?

  And let's be so for real, this is a guy who will kill you.

• 58:27Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 58:27Eleanor Janega?

  Right? And we know this for a fact. And so everyone is like, yeah, to be fair, it doesn't seem like Edward the Second is going to be able to play this in any other way. And now I think there's a really interesting political move gets made in thirteen twenty, which is the Declaration of Arbourth. And it is very funny because remember how Robert the Bruce is an oath breaker, right? And the thing about that is that gets you excommunicated. And so the Pope was like, he did what? And like, and that's, and that's the thing is that it isn't just like, oh, well, I crossed my fingers, so it didn't matter. These have real ramifications.

• 59:09Matt Lewis?

  It's, it's also weird. You can get away with stabbing a man in a church, but not breaking a promise.

• 59:12Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, basically. And the Pope was like, well, we've all been there.

• 59:14Matt Lewis?

  Those rules are slightly flexible.

• 59:16Eleanor Janega?

  It really depends on who you stab in the church, because if it's the bishop, that's bad. If it's like some guy, you know, there's a little more wiggle room. Let's be so for real about that, right? So they then write to the Pope and they're like, hey, listen, just so you know, we are not going away.

• 59:34Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 59:34Eleanor Janega?

  And this, this is what the conditions are in Scotland, right? Like, that's essentially what the declaration says, right?

• 59:39Matt Lewis?

  Should we have a nice little quote from it?

• 59:40Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, let's go.

• 59:42Matt Lewis?

  The letter says, as long as a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be subjected to the lordship of the English. It is in truth, not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom alone, which no honest man gives up, but with life itself.

• 1:00:02Eleanor Janega?

  A banger.

• 1:00:03Matt Lewis?

  Oh, I mean, that's, that's a film speech if ever there was one. This is so well crafted.

• 1:00:07Eleanor Janega?

  That hits. Like, listen, like the Pope got that and he was like, seems pretty serious.

• 1:00:13Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:13Eleanor Janega?

  Seems pretty serious.

• 1:00:14Matt Lewis?

  Because Bruce also knows that if he's going to be a legitimate, genuine king, he has to get the Pope back on site. The man who's just excommunicated him, he needs to build those bridges. And so he's saying, we're not fighting for earthly stuff. We're fighting for something more significant than that.

• 1:00:27Eleanor Janega?

  Which is a really good theological argument, right? Because if you say, yeah, listen, I'm going to level with you. This is about power. I just really want to be king. The Pope is going to be like, that's no good to me. But you have to elevate it to this level where you're talking about intrinsic value, right? And so the concept of independence, like the concept of esprit is an interesting one here that fundamentally John the Twenty Second has to reckon with, right? Because what are you going to do? You're going to turn around and say to all of Scotland, sorry, I don't really care about that. It is a really smart play in terms of reframing the argument, right?

• 1:01:10Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, yeah. And, and, you know, in the aftermath of all of this, English power has completely collapsed in Scotland. Robert is completely in the ascendant. We do get the English still trying to cling on to this idea. I mean, do it in France as well, don't they? Just cling on to this idea that we've still got some authority there. And Edward the Second does lead more campaigns into Scotland, significantly thirteen twenty-two, leads an army across the border. And we see a really interesting tactic here from, from Robert, which is something the Scots and the Welsh do to the English quite often. Robert consciously allows Edward to come over the border and just withdraws all of his men,

• 1:01:50Matt Lewis?

  all of the supplies and everything else. Lets Edward's army wander around southern Scotland for a while till they run out of food and they can't find any anywhere. And then they have to go home with their tails between their legs.

• 1:01:59Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, it's, it's very much like what you see Russians do quite often. It's like, yeah, I don't know. Just like, come on up here and, and see what happens, right? And then at this point in time, the Pope is like, Edward, I'm gonna have to ask you to stop, right? Like, basically, John is like, sees which way the wind is blowing. And he's like, guys, this is just stupid. You're being stupid. Can you please knock it off? So at this point in time, you've got the Pope telling the English, I can't really back you up.

• 1:02:26Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:26Eleanor Janega?

  Theologically here, I need you to just calm down. This seems like it's incredibly stupid. And, you know, to be fair, I think also probably the, the French are kind of like, being like, hey, Mr. Pope, do you see what the English are doing? You know, because they, they love a bit of that, right? So, you know, they, they managed to put their thumbs on the scale a little bit in that direction, right?

• 1:02:45Matt Lewis?

  It's like your annoying sibling on a car journey, isn't it? Where the naughtier you are, the nicer they are.

• 1:02:49Eleanor Janega?

  Exactly.

• 1:02:50Matt Lewis?

  Do you see what he did?

• 1:02:51Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, he hit Scotland.

• 1:02:53Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:54Eleanor Janega?

  Right? So like.

• 1:02:55Matt Lewis?

  Can I give you a sweet while you're driving?

• 1:02:57Eleanor Janega?

  And then basically what ends up happening is there, there are, there are some plots on the Scottish side to sort of undermine this. So like Commons friends are like, are you serious? Because he murdered him. Does no one remember the murder? And everyone's like, actually, we are so far past that. And to be fair, some light plots are rooted out.

• 1:03:20Matt Lewis?

  But even those only reinforce Robert's position because they can't dislodge him now.

• 1:03:24Eleanor Janega?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:25Matt Lewis?

  You know, the, the allies of his greatest enemy, John Common, can't do anything to rock Robert's kingship. And the harder they try to rock it, the more secure he looks.

• 1:03:34Eleanor Janega?

  Well, it just makes it look like you love the English and want to kiss them. That's what it does, right? So he's, he's played it really, really well because he set everything up as about independence, about this, about that, about these, these noble truths and not about nobles in a slap fight, which is what it would look like ordinarily.

• 1:03:50Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:50Eleanor Janega?

  Right?

• 1:03:51Matt Lewis?

  And we, we see for the rest of Edward the Second's reign, lots of border raiding, the Scots are getting into northern England. And Edward just kind of does nothing. It's like, almost like he's been embarrassed.

• 1:04:02Eleanor Janega?

  Hmm.

• 1:04:03Matt Lewis?

  And he's now willing to just turn a blind eye and let the North deal with this problem themselves, which isn't a great look for the King of England.

• 1:04:09Eleanor Janega?

  No. And so, I mean, eventually what comes from it is the thirteen twenty-eight Treaty of Edinburgh, right? Where they're like, let's just formalise this because it's, it's, you know, a real thorn in Edward's side. He has to keep coming back north. Everyone's mad about it. It's costing tons of money. His wife hates him. You know, it's just, it's too much. It's, it's too much to keep prosecuting. So it's like, okay, look, we're not going to settle for this. Edward, at this point in time, has just been straight up killed by Isabella and Roger Mortimer. Good for them. I love it when women have hobbies. And they're like, listen, we are busy trying to reaffirm

• 1:04:55Eleanor Janega?

  what it means down here in England. And now that we've deposed Edward the Second, so we need to just chill the situation out, right?

• 1:05:01Matt Lewis?

  And that's, and that's. And again, it suits Robert because the England now has a teenage king and a regency situation going on. And they're, they're naval gazing, concerned with their own problems and don't really have the time and the energy to deal with Robert. And so he takes the, the chance to say, well, how about we make a permanent peace then? And he travels down to Northampton for this peace treaty to be agreed, in which essentially the English give up any claim to the throne of Scotland.

• 1:05:27Eleanor Janega?

  And quite right too.

• 1:05:28Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:28Eleanor Janega?

  Right? Because like, you were being stupid, it was silly. Like, and, and maybe Edward the First can get away with it because he's quite good at prosecuting wars. But if you are in a situation where you literally just had to depose your own king because he was so bad at this, probably it's best to just say, you know, fair enough, it does seem like you do have a king.

• 1:05:48Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And it's part of that marriage alliance as well. We get Robert's son, David, is married to one of Edward the Third's sisters, Joan. So we're going back to that Henry the Third model of this close family marital alliance, hopefully cementing a long period of peace between the two kingdoms.

• 1:06:04Eleanor Janega?

  I love this though, the, the David and Joan. It sounds like, you know, someone getting married in the nineteen seventies, not in, you know, thirteen twenty-eight.

• 1:06:11Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, David and Joan are coming around for prawn cocktail and trifle tonight.

• 1:06:14Eleanor Janega?

  What are David and Joan doing here? You know, it's, it's, it's good. It's good, you know? So and, and that, that actually, to be fair, is a fairly successful thing. So, you know, we've got that, right? Uh, but then eventually, of course, as the wheels of time move forward, they stop for no man. And of course, Robert the Bruce then dies eventually, maybe of leprosy.

• 1:06:39Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:39Eleanor Janega?

  Which I'm quite interested in.

• 1:06:40Matt Lewis?

  Interesting.

• 1:06:41Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is around. It gets around in the Middle Ages. You'd be surprised how, how leprosy does.

• 1:06:46Matt Lewis?

  And, and he's travelled, you know, he's, he's seen his fair share of hardships and, and everything else. It's entirely possible he's contracted something like leprosy.

• 1:06:54Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:54Matt Lewis?

  Um, but you know, he's fifty-five. It's only a year after the treaty's been agreed.

• 1:07:02Matt Lewis?

  But imagine him on his deathbed, looking back on what he's achieved. Everything that he's done, he's saved, salvaged the Kingdom of Scotland. He's done as much as anybody else to forge this idea of a Scottish identity that is completely independent from England and that is allied instead with France, England's enemy. That sense of national pride is born out of everything that Robert the Bruce managed to achieve. And it starts off with him playing a game of being an English ally for as long as it suits him to be so. It's not like he's doing this as a matter of principle, like you might think Andrew Murray and William Wallace and people like that are. He's played

• 1:07:45Matt Lewis?

  a political game that has ultimately made him a king and crafted a whole kingdom.

• 1:07:53Eleanor Janega?

  And I find him so interesting because he does become an almost physical representation of Scottishness. He's emblematic, right? You know, we have this interesting exercise after he dies because he really wanted to go on crusade, you know, which would really cement, you know, everything, which also probably I would imagine was probably dangled in front of the Pope. Like, oh, if this all goes away, I'll go on crusade for you, Mr. Pope, I promise. You know, and like, to be fair, by the 14th century, the crusades were getting stupider and stupider, right? But, you know, he was still saying that he would do it. And so one of his friends, Sir James Douglas, cuts his heart out and says, I'm

• 1:08:36Eleanor Janega?

  going to take this to the Holy Land with me and you'll still be there. This is an interesting little piece of propaganda because it shows you how important he is, right? So the actual body of the dead king is seen as having this emblematic meaning for Scotland. And this participation, such as it is, in a physical way, really draws home the point, right? Shows you how important he was. Now, does the heart go on crusade? No, because Douglas just gets killed. And so the heart has to go back to Melrose Abbey. But it's cute and I like it.

• 1:09:13Matt Lewis?

  It is. And the idea as well, that desire to have the heart of a Scottish king in Jerusalem at the spiritual core of Christendom, the centre of the world, that a Scottish king would be there and that that Scottish king would be Robert the Bruce, kind of tells us what he means in the immediate aftermath of his death and really ever since in terms of Scottish identity and pride and nationalism.

• 1:09:35Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, I mean, I think really, especially in the 19th century, when basically all nationalism gets turned up to 11, right? It's just, it was rather the thing to do in the 19th century. And one of the big things that happens very particularly with 19th century nationalism is they very specifically go to the Middle Ages in order to make claims for national beliefs. And to be fair, this is a pretty good one. Like, by the time you're sitting around writing these things to the Pope, talking about a Scottish spirit and this desire for freedom, that's exactly what 19th century people latch on to, right? And so this then is memorialised in particular by Robert Burns. Like, who else? Who else, right?

• 1:10:18Eleanor Janega?

  And he writes the Scott Swerhe, right? You know, poem all about Robert the Bruce giving this rousing speech at Bannockburn. And this is essentially like the unofficial Scottish National Anthem before national anthems were a thing.

• 1:10:35Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, Robert Burns immortalising you is the equivalent of Shakespeare's Henry V.

• 1:10:42Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:10:42Matt Lewis?

  Isn't it? You know, the great national poet has told your story in a glorious way for all of time. And, you know, we go back to that quote in the Declaration of Our Broughs. There is, there is clearly some powerful rhetoric there that they're trying to plug into. And people criticise it sometimes, saying, oh, this is about Robert trying to get himself unexcommunicated rather than caring about Scotland. I think that feels a bit harsh to me. And you can do two things at once.

• 1:11:09Eleanor Janega?

  I don't think that you can really separate the two things. I think they're inextricably bound, really. And part of both of these things is talking about what it is that God wants, right? And fundamentally, what Robert the Bruce is able to say is, I am here, though, and I have been able to accomplish all of these things. So if it wasn't supposed to happen, where's God? Where's God in all of this? Because it does seem as though I've been able to prosecute these wars, put myself forward, and I am coming to you, Mr. Pope, and I'm just asking you to notice what has happened here. And that's a very, very compelling argument in such a religious culture.

• 1:11:48Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And I think in terms of a longer legacy, it's not overstating the position to say that Robert the Bruce is the reason that an English king never becomes King of Scotland, and that in fact, when we get to the early modern period, a Scottish king becomes King of England.

• 1:12:03Eleanor Janega?

  And I think that that is a compelling story and it's an easy story. You know, it's more complicated than that, right? Because like, let's look at Robert the Bruce, and he's got this really patchy and interesting record. And, I mean, he is able to do these things because he plays his cards right. He's very, very good at reading the room. He understands how factional alliances work, and eventually he's able to prosecute his claim. If things hadn't shaken out like they did, it is entirely possible that Edward the First could have maintained control in other ways. It's just that there was a series of events that allowed this to happen. But fundamentally, Robert the Bruce is so good

• 1:12:45Eleanor Janega?

  at propaganda, right? Like, this is why, you know, this is one of my abiding research interests in the Middle Ages, is I love it when kings do stuff like that. And it's like, uh-huh, did you write to the Pope? What'd you write to him? Ooh, that's good, right? You know, I love these stories that they tell. And here we are in the 21st century, and we're still talking about it. It worked.

• 1:13:02Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:03Eleanor Janega?

  That worked as a piece of propaganda.

• 1:13:05Matt Lewis?

  He's a man who, you know, he's standing on the shoulders of people like Andrew Murray and William Wallace. And until, I think until Braveheart, William Wallace was much less well known. And he, you know, we don't tell the story of him being allied to swearing fealty to the King of England and recognising the King of England as overlord of Scotland, because it doesn't fit the narrative. So it's also an interesting story about what we tell ourselves about our national heroes, the bits that we miss out, the bits that we choose to emphasise, and the stories that we allow to linger about those people who we want to be great. We want them to be at the core of our story, but we only want the good bits.

• 1:13:43Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah. And I think that it is important and more interesting to tell the story of this incredibly complex man who was very good at keeping his options open and looking at things, because ultimately, I think that makes you a more interesting ruler and it tells you more about how society works. And one way or another, I don't really care that Robert the Bruce did swear fealty to the English. What I think is interesting is that Robert the Bruce knows exactly where he stands and he knows how to play the game. And that tells us more about society and more about his capability as a person than, you know, some romantic idea about concepts of freedom.

• 1:14:25Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, yeah. A man who deserves his legend.

• 1:14:28Eleanor Janega?

  No, absolutely. Thank you for joining us today. You can also hear our episodes on William Wallace or Edward the First. They're such great conversations. You'll find links to those in the show notes to this episode. Do you want even more history? If so, you can watch our new film Medieval Summer on History Hit. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week, as well as early access to your favourite podcasts ad free. Sign up at www.HistoryHit.com/subscription. Look, we better let you go, but make sure you tell all of your friends that you've gone medieval. Till next time. Next time.

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  Hey, it's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast. As businesses scale, success depends on how well knowledge is captured, shared, and kept up to date. Camtasia Pro turns teams' expertise into engaging training, onboarding, and documentation. No professional editing experience required. With the industry's best screen recording, video editing, and AI-powered workflows, you can train faster and boost operational efficiency. Get over $100 off your first year at camtasia pro.com and start building a smarter way to educate customers, onboard employees, and ensure valuable expertise is shared across teams.

• 1:16:07Speaker 02

  Whoever said good things come to those who wait? Never shopped Black Friday early at Lowe's. Right now, get up to 50% off select major appliances. Plus, get free delivery, free haulaway, and free basic installation and parts when you spend $896 or more on select major appliances. Shop Black Friday early in-store and online now at Lowe's. Valid through 12/2 while supplies last. Selection varies by location. See Associate at Lowe's.com for details.