Auto-Erotic Defenestration | The Reformation (Part 1/4)

Meet The First Guy To Play Devil’s Advocate. The Reformation (Part One) Suits by Beggars Run: www.beggarsrun.com The show for people who like history but don't care what actually happened.  For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening and early access to series, become a Truther and sign up to the Patreon ⁠patreon.com/fintaylor This episode of Fin vs History is brought to you by Surfshark. Secure your privacy with Surfshark! Enter coupon code FVH for an extra 4 months at https://surfshark.com/fvh 00:00 - Normal Life Is A Zoo 05:50 - I Got The Job Done! 09:41 - Deep Into The Arse 14:35 - We Need A Bigger Autist 19:23 - Mountain Warehouse Men 25:25 - Autism Bat Signal 30:11 - 32 Million Bums 33:34 - Show Me Your Pum System 37:12 - I Said Night Night 42:53 - Brilliant! 48:20 - A Win For The Patreons Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• 1:42Speaker 03

  Zippo Circus?

• 1:44Speaker 04

  Whoa! Look, read, no, read the things there!

• 1:47Speaker 03

  McFuddy coming to town!

• 1:49Speaker 04

  Forget about Zippo Circus. Read that! I've written 95 theses attacking the church.

• 1:55Speaker 03

  Bottomless Prime!

• 1:56Speaker 04

  Not bottomless Prime!

• 1:57Speaker 03

  Filthy!

• 1:57Speaker 04

  I don't, I get, no, no, this is actually quite a historic moment, and if you read it, it's actually quite radical what I've written.

• 2:04Speaker 03

  Greg Wallace, look at that!

• 2:05Speaker 04

  Forget about Greg Wallace! No, no, no, no, no, no, no, stop! Shut up! I've written devastating theses attacking the church for treating us all like we're idiots.

• 2:19Speaker 03

  Greg, pick up! Greg, pick up!

• 2:34Speaker 05

  Welcome back to Fin vs History. Joining me is Sorese O'Gorman.

• 2:37Speaker 04

  Hi!

• 2:38Speaker 05

  And today is a huge one.

• 2:40Speaker 04

  Big one.

• 2:40Speaker 05

  It's the biggest, to be honest, it's year zero for me.

• 2:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:43Speaker 05

  Longtime listener, we're talking about the Reformation.

• 2:46Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 2:46Speaker 05

  The Protestant Reformation. And listeners of this podcast will know that I really struggle with anything before this.

• 2:52Speaker 04

  Right, because this is when history begins.

• 2:54Speaker 05

  This is when I start to recognise human beings.

• 2:57Speaker 04

  Right. Well, this is the journey to some of the strange, globally, some of the strangest people in the world, actually, arguably Protestants.

• 3:04Speaker 05

  It's the birth of autism.

• 3:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, it is.

• 3:06Speaker 05

  I don't deny that. It's the birth of autism.

• 3:09Speaker 04

  Well, is the person who fucked the AIDS monkey?

• 3:11Speaker 05

  Martin Luther fucks the autism monkey.

• 3:15Speaker 05

  And it leaps into people.

• 3:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:17Speaker 05

  This is the autism crisis of the 16th century.

• 3:20Speaker 04

  Are you double-loaded Protestant?

• 3:22Speaker 05

  I'm an extremist.

• 3:24Speaker 04

  Because I'm half and half, but I was raised by a Protestant mother with a Catholic father.

• 3:28Speaker 05

  Well, you've got a Catholic father?

• 3:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, my dad's Catholic.

• 3:30Speaker 05

  Of course, he's in Indonesia, fucking boys, of course. Yeah, he's a corrupt, he's selling locks of people's hair.

• 3:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I'm only half, I'm only halfway there.

• 3:39Speaker 05

  Well, my mother is Presbyterian and my father is Anglican.

• 3:42Speaker 04

  Right.

• 3:43Speaker 05

  Which sounds like one of those shit New York comic jokes. My mother is Presbyterian and my father is Anglicanism.

• 3:50Speaker 04

  Comedy seller, you're trying to get a laugh there.

• 3:51Speaker 05

  So when I see an eight-year-old boy, I don't know whether to put him to work or shove him up my ass.

• 3:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's no, we are going to be getting into quite a lot of Christian denominational theology this fortnight.

• 4:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:03Speaker 05

  But it's fascinating stuff, and I mean that, because I genuinely think 1517 onwards is, you know, there's some cunts with some ideas, finally.

• 4:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:13Speaker 05

  Before that, it's all just...

• 4:15Speaker 04

  It's something to actually get our teeth into that's not saying, "And then they did this, and then they did that."

• 4:20Speaker 05

  And it's, this is the end of, you know, the medieval period ends with Luther. But yeah, 1517 is the year that I, you know, I think everyone in, in, everyone has a year in history where they wake up.

• 4:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:32Speaker 05

  And they're like, "Oh, okay, this is interesting."

• 4:35Speaker 04

  Well, it seems to me, you doing this topic, it's like when people get set free by their autism diagnosis. You know, like Pierre Néveli got his autism diagnosis and it felt like a lot of things made sense.

• 4:45Speaker 05

  Set me free. Now I understand Pierre. I thought he was an early AI.

• 4:52Speaker 04

  It's like, oh, I understand why these, I'm different to other people.

• 4:56Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 4:56Speaker 04

  And I think that's you doing this topic.

• 4:58Speaker 05

  I understand myself.

• 4:59Speaker 04

  I understand.

• 5:00Speaker 05

  I finally got a label. I'm Presbyterian. But yeah, my mother's Presbyterian, Scottish, and we will get into probably in part three.

• 5:08Speaker 04

  Which is a single malt.

• 5:11Speaker 05

  It's distilled, highly distilled, concentrated Protestantism. She's an extremist.

• 5:16Speaker 04

  Not blended.

• 5:17Speaker 05

  No, no, no, not cut.

• 5:18Speaker 04

  It's not a sweet bourbon. It is a harsh PT.

• 5:21Speaker 05

  It's fucking petrol water. It's sewage water.

• 5:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:24Speaker 05

  It's Presbyterianism.

• 5:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:25Speaker 05

  And that's my mother. My father is Anglicanism and so is gay.

• 5:29Speaker 04

  Gay.

• 5:30Speaker 05

  We will get into, yeah, Anglicism is gay, but we'll get into that.

• 5:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:33Speaker 05

  Today, it's soft. It's soft-bellied. My mother's hard-boated.

• 5:37Speaker 04

  It's lily-livered.

• 5:38Speaker 05

  Yeah, it is, yeah. No, my mother sort of whips my father, basically. It's how their relationship works. So it's the beginning of a four-part series and we'll be getting into it. We are in the Holy Roman Empire, the first Reich.

• 5:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:55Speaker 05

  To give it a proper name.

• 5:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:56Speaker 05

  So we're in what is now Germany, but it's a, it's a patchwork quilt of different states.

• 6:02Speaker 04

  Yes, it really is.

• 6:03Speaker 05

  You've got, you've got your Saxony, you've got your Bavaria, all these, they're all counties, basically. It's like English counties, but if they were.

• 6:11Speaker 04

  They don't know what a country is yet, so they're all just fucking freestyling.

• 6:14Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 6:14Speaker 04

  At the moment.

• 6:16Speaker 05

  And part of the great, you know, Germany isn't a country until the 19th century. So they're very late developers because they have such strong provincial identities.

• 6:25Speaker 04

  And a lot, yeah, and a lot of Nazism was trying to sort of make, make up a long history for a country that's very new, right?

• 6:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, again, why I like this topic. The Nazis are impossible without Luther.

• 6:35Speaker 04

  Right.

• 6:35Speaker 05

  Arguably Luther is the sort of proto Hitler.

• 6:37Speaker 04

  But also Marx is impossible without Luther.

• 6:40Speaker 05

  That's true.

• 6:40Speaker 04

  So it's like Luther is arguably of the last 500 years, the most important.

• 6:45Speaker 05

  He's the only, he's the first guy to have a thought that's not, where's my next barrel of porridge?

• 6:52Speaker 05

  Or like, got, or like, let's, you know, let's fucking charge. Yeah, he's the first guy who's thinking about stuff. He's the first, he's the first disruptor.

• 7:03Speaker 04

  He's very much a disruptor.

• 7:04Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 7:04Speaker 04

  That's what my dad, that's how my dad would view him.

• 7:06Speaker 05

  Right.

• 7:06Speaker 04

  He'd view him as a sort of a tech disruptor.

• 7:09Speaker 05

  Your dad's a Catholic?

• 7:10Speaker 04

  No, but he, he respects disruption.

• 7:12Speaker 05

  Of course.

• 7:12Speaker 04

  In the market.

• 7:13Speaker 05

  Right, yes, yeah.

• 7:14Speaker 04

  He thinks you've got to shake things up and these are important. He's an outlier. Um, do not get my dad's threads up, please.

• 7:20Speaker 05

  Your dad's on threads?

• 7:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, my dad's.

• 7:22Speaker 05

  Oh, look at his golf swing.

• 7:23Speaker 04

  No, no, go on, go on his replies, go on his replies, go on his replies.

• 7:26Speaker 05

  Oh, the first one starts with listen.

• 7:28Speaker 04

  So he, when he's stuck in traffic on the way to golf, he responds to sort of AI images.

• 7:34Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 7:35Speaker 04

  With truth and logic.

• 7:36Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm. AI image destroyed by truth and logic.

• 7:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's a lot of anti-Brexit stuff. Wait, here we go, go, go down one, go down one. So then dad's educating people who are anti-capitalist on Adam Smith. Read Adam Smith on why capital accumulation is essential for societal growth. Then read any book explaining why consumption without R and D leads to a doom cycle.

• 8:01Speaker 05

  He's got one like on that. And he's replying to a thread that had 10,000 likes. Uh, anyway, much like Luther, he's a lone man shouting into the void.

• 8:11Speaker 04

  Very much so, and also the printing press is, is thread, isn't it?

• 8:15Speaker 05

  It is, Luther's the first guy to go viral, you know? And again, the history of going viral has got worse.

• 8:22Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 8:22Speaker 05

  When you think of the, you know, the, the literacy and the articulation of a complex idea goes viral 500 years ago.

• 8:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:31Speaker 05

  And now it's a Korean woman smushing bread into her face.

• 8:33Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 8:34Speaker 05

  You know, the West has fallen.

• 8:36Speaker 04

  I, I, I agree, but if we look at the things that Luther was pumping out, from the birth of virality was talking about some absolutely foul things, talking about shitting yourself.

• 8:46Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 8:46Speaker 04

  Like that, that comes from the birth.

• 8:48Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 8:48Speaker 04

  There was never a moment where it wasn't linked to absolute vulgar crap.

• 8:52Speaker 05

  Yes, that's, no, that's, that is true, actually, and we'll get, we'll get into that. So the Holy Roman Empire is a patchwork quilt of different types of pork-eating Germans. And it is governed by, you've got the, the two swords theory.

• 9:07Speaker 04

  Right.

• 9:08Speaker 05

  Uh, one of them is an emperor.

• 9:10Speaker 04

  To two katana theories.

• 9:11Speaker 05

  To two katana, sorry, to put that into context for us. It's not two girls, one cup, Charlie. Do not get that on the screen. The Holy Roman Empire is not governed by the two girls, one cup theory.

• 9:20Speaker 04

  Well, it's a two, it's sort of a, is.

• 9:22Speaker 05

  It's got nothing to do with two girls, one cup.

• 9:23Speaker 04

  It's sort of two girls, one cup. Whereas, well, one girl represents the power of the emperor.

• 9:29Speaker 05

  Two denominations.

• 9:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, and the other one represents the power of Pope. And together they, they're on one cup, right?

• 9:35Speaker 05

  So are you saying that it's two denominations, one Christ?

• 9:38Speaker 04

  Well, because the two source theory, correct me if I'm wrong, it's about the delineation between church and state.

• 9:43Speaker 05

  Yes, it is.

• 9:44Speaker 04

  And it's about the, the power of the Holy Roman Emperor and the power of the Pope. But they are joined together with one cup.

• 9:49Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 9:50Speaker 04

  That they're both.

• 9:53Speaker 05

  Well, I suppose so, yeah, okay.

• 9:55Speaker 04

  So it's the two girls, one cup.

• 9:56Speaker 05

  So the two girls, one cup, Holy Roman Empire. And this starts, you start, you have the Great Schism of 1054.

• 10:03Speaker 04

  We've covered the Great Schism.

• 10:04Speaker 05

  Many times.

• 10:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:05Speaker 05

  Fires you up.

• 10:06Speaker 04

  It comes up a lot more than I thought it would when I first heard of it.

• 10:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, you know how they say that men think about the Roman Empire once a day?

• 10:13Speaker 04

  I'm thinking about the Great.

• 10:14Speaker 05

  You think about the Great Schism of 1054 multiple times.

• 10:17Speaker 04

  Which is the break, because remember, the, we'll talk a lot about the Catholic Church, but the Catholic Church doesn't exist. The Catholic Church only exists when they have to define themselves against Protestantism or what, what, what are we?

• 10:27Speaker 05

  Oh, we're the pedo one, okay, fine, fine, okay, yeah.

• 10:30Speaker 04

  But so the Great Schism is actually just the Eastern Church and the Western Church, one led by the Latin-speaking Rome and the other led by the patriarchs of Byzantium.

• 10:39Speaker 05

  Greek speakers.

• 10:40Speaker 04

  Greek speakers, yeah.

• 10:41Speaker 05

  And this is why, you know, Greece and Russia and the sort of Eastern Europe is so different from Central Europe is because culturally.

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• 12:20Speaker 05

  You know, Orthodox Christianity is much more communal.

• 12:25Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 12:26Speaker 05

  It's much less individual than Protestantism, certainly.

• 12:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:31Speaker 05

  But also, it's, there's a, they're much okay with mysticism, much more okay with mysticism and suffering as well.

• 12:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:38Speaker 05

  As we've discussed in the Russian Revolution series, they love suffering.

• 12:41Speaker 04

  It's a bit more voodoo.

• 12:42Speaker 05

  It's the meaning of life. It is complete voodoo nonsense.

• 12:44Speaker 04

  And the Catholic Church, from your point of view, the Catholic Church is voodoo nonsense.

• 12:47Speaker 05

  It's black magic.

• 12:48Speaker 04

  But then Orthodox is even further.

• 12:49Speaker 05

  It's unknowable.

• 12:51Speaker 04

  Right, yeah. Well, I still never quite understood the link between Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox, how they're both part of similar churches, even though culturally they're so different. The Greek and the Russians.

• 13:02Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 13:03Speaker 04

  They don't have any link to me. They're as far away as possible.

• 13:06Speaker 05

  Well, the Russians actively seek out pain.

• 13:09Speaker 04

  And the Greeks.

• 13:11Speaker 05

  And love it. And the Greeks actively avoid anything.

• 13:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, so it doesn't really make sense to me.

• 13:15Speaker 05

  No.

• 13:16Speaker 04

  That it's the same church, do you know what I mean?

• 13:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, I suppose so. But it's the same psychology, I think.

• 13:20Speaker 04

  Why?

• 13:21Speaker 05

  Well, it's not European.

• 13:23Speaker 04

  Right.

• 13:24Speaker 05

  Is it?

• 13:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, fine. Distinguished, yeah.

• 13:27Speaker 05

  And we'll get into, listen, a big thing that I'm interested in is the sort of psychological architecture that is left in a culture after the theology has gone, which is why I, as you said.

• 13:37Speaker 04

  Germany 1945.

• 13:38Speaker 05

  Yep. Why you're saying. But by the way, if 1517 is when I wake up, Germany 945 is when I go to sleep again.

• 13:46Speaker 05

  For me, that's history.

• 13:48Speaker 04

  Right.

• 13:48Speaker 05

  Luther to Hitler. Luther to Hitler, history. The Great Schism of 1054, yes, creates Latin Christendom and then the voodoo orthodox nonsense, where the priests all dressed like soda streams.

• 14:01Speaker 05

  Now, the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages sort of operates on this spiritual economy.

• 14:07Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 14:08Speaker 05

  Whereby.

• 14:08Speaker 04

  Industrial complex.

• 14:09Speaker 05

  It is, yeah. Whereby the ordinary shit eating peasants.

• 14:14Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 14:14Speaker 05

  With their shit hair and their porridge.

• 14:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:16Speaker 05

  They have to actively pay the Catholic Church in order.

• 14:22Speaker 04

  It's a patron system.

• 14:24Speaker 05

  It is a patron system, but let's not follow that thread. Which of our patrons will be the Luther?

• 14:30Speaker 04

  Shit eating peasants.

• 14:31Speaker 05

  The shit eating, which patron will rise up and go, hang on, hang on.

• 14:36Speaker 04

  Why are you paying indulgences?

• 14:37Speaker 05

  Why are you paying £3 of indulgences to these corrupt, these corrupt pedos?

• 14:44Speaker 05

  It's a fair point, actually.

• 14:45Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 14:45Speaker 05

  But so the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages operates on this spiritual economy where, yeah, people have to basically, it's a pyramid scheme, people have to pay in order to save themselves later.

• 14:54Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 14:55Speaker 05

  So this idea of purgatory, right? Which is.

• 14:57Speaker 04

  The waiting room, right?

• 14:58Speaker 05

  The waiting room before heaven or hell.

• 15:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:01Speaker 05

  And you can, you can buy things in real life in order to minimise your time spent in the waiting room.

• 15:10Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 15:10Speaker 05

  So they have these things called indulgences.

• 15:13Speaker 04

  Which is basically, and the people who choose indulgences are the clergy or the bishops or the priests, right? So they get to choose what each indulgence, how much time it gets you off.

• 15:25Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 15:26Speaker 04

  And because they've been imbued with the power of God, they can say like, yeah, well, if you buy this toenail clipping.

• 15:33Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 15:33Speaker 04

  That I believe is.

• 15:34Speaker 05

  From Christ.

• 15:34Speaker 04

  Jesus's friend's toenails.

• 15:36Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 15:36Speaker 04

  That's probably, maybe you get five years off hell.

• 15:39Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 15:40Speaker 04

  Like, and they're just spitballing it, basically.

• 15:43Speaker 05

  Oh, it's complete bollocks. And I actually, I actually, this is some of the maddest indulgences the Catholic Church were selling. Or relics, rather. I mean, a relic is something that you'd buy or you'd pay to see and that would give off time. The Holy foreskin, right? There were 14 different churches in Europe that claimed to have Jesus's foreskin.

• 16:07Speaker 05

  It was said to have

• 16:07Speaker 04

  You know how everyone says the Sex Pistols gig, even though there was that famous Sex Pistols gig that only 15 people were at?

• 16:12Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 16:13Speaker 04

  Like 100 people said they were there. But everyone's like, yeah, we've all got.

• 16:16Speaker 05

  We've all got the Jesus's foreskin. 14.

• 16:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, he could have.

• 16:21Speaker 05

  I guess that's Jesus and the disciples and then some other cunts.

• 16:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 16:25Speaker 05

  The Virgin Mary's milk. Numerous vials of petrified liquid breast milk. In reality, these were usually just white chalk or lime mixed with water. Hay from the manger, just bits of straw. Yeah, it is awesome, but it does also.

• 16:40Speaker 04

  It explains the Italian mindset as well. Expect the mafia, the corruption.

• 16:44Speaker 05

  Oh, I see.

• 16:45Speaker 04

  They're sort of like, truth is sort of in the hands of whoever's in power. And you could sort of play with it how you will.

• 16:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, but also the other people are just very, very thick.

• 16:56Speaker 04

  But that's the early version of the church, you are dealing with a very thick base. And it's only when printing, reading starts growing that you can't keep treating them like shit eating peasants. But to be fair, they are shit eating peasants, just to give, give the Catholic Church.

• 17:11Speaker 05

  The Italians?

• 17:13Speaker 04

  The people at this time, you know?

• 17:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, so you've also, and we'll get into who Frederick III is, or Frederick the Wise. But he's important to this story, but he collects relics such as a lock of the virgin's hair. Now, many of our patrons will have lock of virgin's hair. A corpse of a baby killed by herod. Parts of swaddling from Jesus, fragments of the cross, a thumb from Saint Anne. He's got milk from the Virgin Mary as well, apparently.

• 17:39Speaker 04

  But that industry is still here today. If you go to the Vatican, there are like, you know, effigies of the Pope's face on sweets and stuff.

• 17:47Speaker 05

  Fridge magnets.

• 17:48Speaker 04

  There's fridge magnets. It's like.

• 17:49Speaker 05

  It's tacky.

• 17:50Speaker 04

  It's an American candy store in central London.

• 17:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 17:53Speaker 04

  You know, and all the London, like tourist stuff.

• 17:57Speaker 05

  It's money laundering.

• 17:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:59Speaker 05

  I mean, it is money laundering.

• 18:00Speaker 04

  And it's still there today.

• 18:01Speaker 05

  You know, indulgence is still a thing.

• 18:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:03Speaker 05

  They don't take money for them.

• 18:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:04Speaker 05

  But, um, yeah. So. As we've said before, essentially, the Catholic Church is selling Jesus's farts in a jar.

• 18:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:11Speaker 05

  And people are buying them.

• 18:12Speaker 04

  As bath water.

• 18:13Speaker 05

  Huffing them. And then they're getting into, well, supposedly, they're getting into purgatory, less time in purgatory. You also have, now, I don't understand a lot of the Catholic practices.

• 18:26Speaker 04

  Did you not take any bread and wine?

• 18:28Speaker 05

  No, I'm always, I'm doing the posnann when I go up to receive. I've been to a Catholic funeral.

• 18:33Speaker 04

  You, what is it, Paul Golding?

• 18:34Speaker 05

  Paul Golding's a deity. When I go up to the altar at a Catholic funeral, I go, no, thank you. And I posnann. No, I have gone to a Catholic funeral. And I, yeah, I did.

• 18:45Speaker 04

  For you, it probably looks like a Ghanaian funeral. That's probably.

• 18:48Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was crazy. Yeah, it was absolutely crazy. It was mad. The colour, the noise.

• 18:56Speaker 04

  So I went to a high church Anglican school, which is a branch of Anglicanism, which is basically Catholic, but they don't like the Pope. Or they, so they get away as much as they can, possibly.

• 19:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 19:06Speaker 04

  It's all in English, it's all that, but all the dressings.

• 19:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 19:09Speaker 04

  So we did bread and wine, but we just don't, we just view it as symbolic. And that's a huge deal.

• 19:14Speaker 05

  And this is, this is crazy, how fucking pedantic this whole rupture is.

• 19:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 19:19Speaker 05

  Is the bread and wine figurative, or is it actually Jesus's body and blood?

• 19:26Speaker 04

  Figurative.

• 19:27Speaker 05

  Yeah. And that's the whole split, really.

• 19:30Speaker 04

  But what do you mean? Like?

• 19:31Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 19:31Speaker 04

  Because I think that when they consecrate it, it becomes his body.

• 19:35Speaker 05

  I suppose.

• 19:35Speaker 04

  It's crazy, but even in their, surely even in what they're trying to say it's metaphorical, how could it possibly?

• 19:41Speaker 05

  But you are viewing it through a Protestant mindset.

• 19:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 19:44Speaker 05

  You know, because you are, this is the first time a magician was called out for being a nonce.

• 19:52Speaker 05

  Someone does magic in front of Luther and he goes, oh, would you fuck off?

• 19:55Speaker 04

  They cancelled Dynamo, basically.

• 19:57Speaker 05

  It's street performers, it's carnies. And Luther goes, I've had enough of this, right? You're all just shysters. This is boring. You're all nonces. Anyway.

• 20:05Speaker 04

  There's also mass, which the Protestants don't have, which is the.

• 20:08Speaker 05

  No.

• 20:08Speaker 04

  Which are the rituals that at times were literally like psychedelic sort of, you'd go on for hours and hours.

• 20:17Speaker 05

  It's Uggah Booga stuff. It's drumming and.

• 20:21Speaker 05

  But I went to a Catholic funeral and, yeah, they, they said, like, if you're not Catholic, then just do this when you, like, will candor it at the altar to say that I don't want any bread and wine.

• 20:30Speaker 04

  Interesting.

• 20:31Speaker 05

  So I did that. Why didn't you want it? Hey? Why don't you not want it? Because it's voodoo nonsense. But you don't like bread? Yeah, but it's not like nice bread.

• 20:39Speaker 04

  You love bread.

• 20:40Speaker 05

  I love bread, but now it's a wafer because they're corrupt.

• 20:42Speaker 04

  And you like wine?

• 20:43Speaker 05

  Yes, but it's not actual wine, it's shit wine. And it's a wafer because they're corrupt. They call it bread, but it's not bread. It's a cracker, if it's anything.

• 20:51Speaker 04

  Right, if it's a nice Pinot Noir and it's sourdough bread, are you still...

• 20:54Speaker 05

  If they had some oil that you could dip the bread in?

• 20:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:57Speaker 05

  And you could spend some time there.

• 20:58Speaker 04

  You would throw your religious views out the...

• 21:01Speaker 05

  I don't have religious views.

• 21:02Speaker 04

  You have cultural views.

• 21:03Speaker 05

  I have cultural prejudices.

• 21:08Speaker 05

  The Eucharist will become a big rupture point. But, so that's basically the lay of the land. In that the Catholic Church dominates the Holy Roman Empire, which is basically Germany. Is that's what it is, isn't it? It goes maybe into Switzerland.

• 21:25Speaker 04

  But then there's a marriage alliance and it becomes Spain, the Netherlands. So it's the dominant force apart from France.

• 21:31Speaker 05

  Yes, and what I will say is that at the end of the Reformation, which you could probably say is 1648, we won't go that far in this series. That is the beginning of the modern nation state, really. So it's just before all that gets seen. So in the early 15th century, you have a guy called Jan Hus.

• 21:50Speaker 04

  Jay Hus.

• 21:51Speaker 05

  Not Jay Hus.

• 21:53Speaker 05

  It's not Jay Hus. I don't know who Jay Hus is.

• 21:56Speaker 03

  He's a rapper.

• 21:57Speaker 05

  He's a rapper.

• 21:57Speaker 04

  He's good.

• 21:57Speaker 03

  He's very good.

• 21:58Speaker 05

  What does he sing?

• 22:00Speaker 03

  Big butty gal, good evening. I can see a chicken needs seasoning. I like, posted on the blog like a lowlife. I like my fanta with no ice. She said my lifestyle is no nice. But my woody so good it make her blow twice.

• 22:14Speaker 05

  So Jan Hus is, the Anglican, the Anglicised version of his name is John Goose.

• 22:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, it has a different vibe to it.

• 22:21Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's not as impressive. My name, hello, I'm John Goose. Now, John Goose is essentially Luther 100 years before.

• 22:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:31Speaker 05

  And he's operating in Bohemia, what's now the Czech Republic, where the conditions are not as favorable to someone saying this stuff.

• 22:41Speaker 04

  Right, why?

• 22:42Speaker 05

  Well, the Holy Roman Empire has loads of devolved power.

• 22:46Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 22:47Speaker 05

  And part of the thing Luther weaponizes is that all the princes in the provinces want less overreach from Rome.

• 22:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:55Speaker 05

  So they're actually very happy.

• 22:56Speaker 04

  I mean, it is very EU similarities.

• 22:59Speaker 05

  E U S S R.

• 23:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, it is. It's bloody Brussels.

• 23:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:05Speaker 05

  Except it's not Brussels, it's the Vasken. But in my head, those are both paedophiles.

• 23:12Speaker 05

  Belgium.

• 23:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:13Speaker 05

  Va-Vasken, you know.

• 23:16Speaker 05

  Anyway, so Huss, he basically, I think he pretty much says exactly what Luther goes on to say. He's like, the Bible's the main thing. You're, all you're doing is you're, you're basically exploiting thick people by saying that you understand the Bible and they can't read it. And then you're all running, you're becoming corrupt. And also. Where are all the big batty gals? Where are all the big batty gals? And this chicken needs seasoning.

• 23:40Speaker 05

  And he also, I think he, he calls out the, the blood and the wine, the bread and the, bread and the wine.

• 23:45Speaker 04

  So what the fuck is this?

• 23:46Speaker 05

  He says, that's not, no, I think he says, can I have some? Because I don't think, I think just the priests eat it.

• 23:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:51Speaker 05

  And then the clergy are just like, what, what are you doing over there?

• 23:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:55Speaker 05

  Can I have some of that? And they go, no. And again, it's, it's, anyway. So Huss preaches against it. And he, he gets followers that are called Hussites or Gooses, I guess. And he gets excommunicated because there's another schism, the Western schism, which is the Council of Constance. It's ended by the Council of Constance. So they say, they call Huss to this council and they say, you're going to have safe passage.

• 24:22Speaker 04

  Right.

• 24:23Speaker 05

  Because he's been mouthing off. And so he, he thinks he's going to get killed. But the Catholic, the Catholics say, oh, you can have safe passage then. He goes, okay, fine. And then they get, he gets there and then they're like, yeah, no, you're a heretic. You're good. We're going to burn you.

• 24:36Speaker 04

  Gets cancelled.

• 24:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, the, the ultimate cancel culture. John Goose gets burned.

• 24:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:40Speaker 05

  And they, he goes, well, I thought I had safe passage. And they're like, yeah, you have safe passage here, but now you're here, we're going to burn you.

• 24:46Speaker 04

  Is the sort of Idi Amin talk about freedom of speech?

• 24:48Speaker 05

  I'm sorry that you took offence.

• 24:50Speaker 04

  Yes. I, I could, you can have freedom of speech, I just can't promise freedom of speech.

• 24:55Speaker 05

  Beast. Absolutely incredible. So Husk gets burned in 1417.

• 25:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:00Speaker 05

  Which ends the sort of schism, but.

• 25:03Speaker 04

  He's still got followers in Czech Republic in Prague.

• 25:06Speaker 05

  Yes, and now what happens is, so because he, again, whenever there's a Protestant or early Protestant thinker, it kind of folds into like local power dynamics.

• 25:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:20Speaker 05

  And like revolutions.

• 25:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:22Speaker 05

  So you get to the.

• 25:24Speaker 04

  Council politics.

• 25:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, it is. Yeah. So you get to the first defenestration of Prague.

• 25:29Speaker 04

  Now, we did a very early Patreon episode on the history of defenestration.

• 25:33Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 25:33Speaker 04

  The fenestration is a, weird that they have to have a word for this.

• 25:36Speaker 05

  It's a brilliant word.

• 25:37Speaker 04

  Is it, is one of my favorite words, is one of, is the act of throwing someone out of a window.

• 25:42Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 25:43Speaker 04

  I don't know if we got to the point, can you re-fenestrate someone, which is throwing someone into a window?

• 25:47Speaker 05

  I tell you what you can do is, so to place this, okay, to place the reformation, which is, let's say it's 1517.

• 25:54Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 25:55Speaker 05

  That is after the first defenestration of Prague.

• 25:57Speaker 04

  1419.

• 25:58Speaker 05

  And is before Liam Payne self-defenestrated.

• 26:04Speaker 04

  Can, can one self-defenestrate?

• 26:06Speaker 05

  I think Liam Payne's.

• 26:07Speaker 04

  Or is it built within the defenestration?

• 26:09Speaker 05

  Sorry, the first.

• 26:10Speaker 04

  Is someone chucking you out of it?

• 26:11Speaker 05

  To give it its proper historical name.

• 26:13Speaker 04

  Yes, you can. You can.

• 26:14Speaker 05

  The first defenestration of Buenos Aires.

• 26:18Speaker 05

  Yes, you can. This act is.

• 26:19Speaker 04

  Auto is auto.

• 26:22Speaker 05

  Now, can you auto erotic defenestrate?

• 26:26Speaker 04

  You can.

• 26:29Speaker 05

  The act of throwing oneself from a window, auto defenestration. Can you auto erotic defenestrate?

• 26:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 26:35Speaker 05

  I guess you can. Yeah, you can. Yeah, because what you do is you have a really, really long tie. Right on a balcony and then you jump off wanking.

• 26:43Speaker 04

  Like bungee jumping.

• 26:44Speaker 05

  Bungee, yeah, bungee jump wanking is auto erotic defenestration.

• 26:47Speaker 04

  Yeah. But we did the history of defenestration and there would seem to be a strange history of multiple defenestrations happening in Prague.

• 26:54Speaker 05

  There are, there are maybe three or four.

• 26:56Speaker 04

  It's arguably a cultural thing.

• 26:59Speaker 05

  Yes, it is.

• 27:00Speaker 04

  But it's all linked to early Protestantism, really.

• 27:02Speaker 05

  I think the Thirty Years' War, which is the biggest war in Europe until World War II.

• 27:06Speaker 04

  That we don't know anything about.

• 27:07Speaker 05

  Begins with the third defenestration of Prague.

• 27:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:11Speaker 05

  I think, I think maybe the Czechs need to stop building stairs.

• 27:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:15Speaker 05

  I think they've got an issue there.

• 27:17Speaker 04

  But there's something, it's a great story because it is something quite satisfying if you don't like council.

• 27:23Speaker 05

  No, fuck off.

• 27:25Speaker 04

  There is something thrilling about chucking a local council leader.

• 27:28Speaker 05

  It's very Protestant.

• 27:30Speaker 04

  Fuck off.

• 27:30Speaker 05

  Oh, fuck out the window, fuck off, Ben. It's a very Protestant move.

• 27:34Speaker 04

  Oh, fuck off, get out, fuck off. No, I don't agree with you, fuck off. It's a very Protestant thing, okay?

• 27:40Speaker 05

  And actually, you know, there'll be a lot of, in this whole story, this whole series, there are a lot of things going out of windows. Which, you know, it's the, it's the long road to chucking a TV out a window, you know?

• 27:49Speaker 04

  Protestants don't hold much sacred. They try and keep what they hold sacred as small as possible.

• 27:54Speaker 05

  No, nothing sacred.

• 27:55Speaker 04

  So no one's sacred.

• 27:56Speaker 05

  You're all going out the window.

• 27:59Speaker 05

  Right, in the bin, fuck off, you're going, I don't agree with you, get out, you know?

• 28:02Speaker 04

  Protestant footballing, you know, is very similar.

• 28:05Speaker 05

  Sam Allan does.

• 28:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, Sam.

• 28:06Speaker 05

  There's no beauty in it.

• 28:09Speaker 05

  There's no beauty to it. Get up top, fuck off, out the window, piss off, done. You know, we get things done.

• 28:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:16Speaker 05

  Okay? So, um, this sparks the Hussite Wars, okay, which, uh, I didn't realise, they're a fu- they, they basically defeat the whole, they invent asymmetric warfare. They're the first Taliban.

• 28:29Speaker 04

  What's asymmetric, oh, right, right.

• 28:30Speaker 05

  Guerrilla warfare, right? They're the first Hamas, whatever you want to call it. They are between 1419 and 1434.

• 28:36Speaker 04

  Husmas.

• 28:37Speaker 05

  Husmas.

• 28:40Speaker 05

  Yeah. Uh, they're Czech Taliban fighters.

• 28:43Speaker 04

  Right.

• 28:43Speaker 05

  And they invent, they invent the howitzer. The word howitzer comes from cannons that they use.

• 28:49Speaker 04

  What does howitzer mean?

• 28:50Speaker 05

  It's like a type of cannon.

• 28:51Speaker 04

  Right.

• 28:51Speaker 05

  But they basically invent pistols. They, they basically make a little hand pistol. And they also invent wagon defences, which is how Americans.

• 28:59Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 29:00Speaker 05

  So you know, when we did Rorke's Drift?

• 29:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:03Speaker 05

  They have a thing called a lager.

• 29:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:05Speaker 05

  A wagon lager. That comes from this.

• 29:07Speaker 04

  Right, because those are German words.

• 29:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, the idea of making your wagons and making a circle and using that as a defence. So the Holy Roman Empire, they go on five crusades.

• 29:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, you sort of make a bukkake as a defensive position, right? You all get round in a circle.

• 29:24Speaker 05

  Yes, but you're facing out.

• 29:25Speaker 04

  Right, okay.

• 29:26Speaker 05

  So.

• 29:26Speaker 04

  It'd be pointless. It'd be an outward face of bukkake.

• 29:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's that a bukkake, I suppose. If there's a woman kneeling and then you will turn your backs like pork hunting. Jizz elsewhere. Yes, I'll tell you what it is.

• 29:38Speaker 04

  No, but is that?

• 29:38Speaker 05

  Sorry, it's a Britain first bukkake, where there's a Muslim on their knees and you go, no, no. And you all turn around and you whack away from them.

• 29:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, I guess if a woman thinks she's entering a bukkake and then you do a reverse bukkake as an act of protest.

• 29:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 29:58Speaker 04

  I think that's a very, I think that's a very powerful political.

• 30:00Speaker 05

  What are you saying, though? It is powerful. What's the statement?

• 30:03Speaker 04

  She's expecting 15 loads in her face, but actually, if 50 people all agreed that this is going to be a mass strike.

• 30:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 30:11Speaker 04

  You know, it's the power of the unions, the power of the strike.

• 30:14Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 30:14Speaker 04

  You're all collectivising.

• 30:15Speaker 05

  You're turning your backs and you're coming. And then she's left unbukkaked. It is a powerful image. I'm not sure what it says, I suppose. Anyway, so the Hussite Wars are actually, they're quite interesting because, yeah, they defeat, there are five crusades that the Pope sends and they all get defeated. And then there's a sort of.

• 30:36Speaker 04

  Five crusades?

• 30:36Speaker 05

  Five crusades. They can't defeat them because they also make, they have all these, because they're basically peasants. They have these farming, I guess, ploughs and they make them like into sort of tank traps.

• 30:47Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 30:47Speaker 05

  But for horses. Anyway, they develop, they develop basically warfare and they can't.

• 30:52Speaker 04

  They're like the boars, basically.

• 30:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, certainly they are. So they, I think by 1434, there's a kind of fragile peace where Bohemia, nowadays Czech Republic, they're allowed to be goosey Protestants.

• 31:04Speaker 04

  Right.

• 31:05Speaker 05

  Hussite or whatever.

• 31:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 31:07Speaker 05

  That's the only area.

• 31:08Speaker 04

  So Bohemians, being a Bohemian, is that at all linked to being Czech?

• 31:13Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 31:13Speaker 04

  Being fruity.

• 31:14Speaker 05

  Bohemian, I think that's the 60s.

• 31:16Speaker 04

  Oh, it could sort of mean it's like gypsy, right?

• 31:19Speaker 05

  Oh, I love that. So if I call someone Bohemian, I'm calling them a gypsy.

• 31:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's perfect.

• 31:23Speaker 05

  But then Tyson Fury doesn't seem very Bohemian.

• 31:27Speaker 05

  I'd fight you. Bloody hell, kooky guy.

• 31:29Speaker 04

  Fucking Moulin Rouge.

• 31:30Speaker 05

  Fucking hell, been to India, have we? Um, anyway. So the Hussite Wars ends with this fragile piece where basically Bohemia and Maravia.

• 31:39Speaker 04

  I'm gonna bust it, go on.

• 31:40Speaker 05

  I'm gonna, there we go. Oh, fuck, I'm gonna bust it.

• 31:42Speaker 04

  Had to get it out.

• 31:43Speaker 05

  Uh, so they end with a kind of uneasy sort of piece, uh, where the Holy Roman Empire just sort of says, okay, well, they can, they can stay doing their mad goosey stuff. But as when Huss is burned at the stake, he says, uh, now I'm paraphrasing, but he says something like, you may have cooked this goose, but in a hundred years' time, there'll be a swan who you can't burn.

• 32:04Speaker 04

  Damn.

• 32:05Speaker 05

  Now that, to me, is quite Catholic and poetic.

• 32:10Speaker 04

  So you don't like that?

• 32:11Speaker 05

  I don't like that.

• 32:12Speaker 04

  Cause you don't like subtext?

• 32:13Speaker 05

  No. Text.

• 32:17Speaker 05

  If you mean it, write it.

• 32:18Speaker 04

  In a hundred years, there's gonna be a guy who's gonna do it and you won't be able to burn him.

• 32:23Speaker 05

  All right, great, I'll look out for him. Thank you. Thanks, John. I understand what you've, I understand what you said. You're not a goose.

• 32:31Speaker 04

  Cause you're, yeah, you're like, what, a swan? But what's a swan gonna do politically?

• 32:35Speaker 05

  How's a swan got the grip of theology that you?

• 32:39Speaker 05

  What's the actual quote? You are now going to burn a goose, but in a century, you will have a swan which you can neither roast nor boil.

• 32:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:45Speaker 05

  So Huss basically, uh, has a prophecy that Luther's gonna arrive. And it is almost, fuck, it is, is it exactly a hundred years? Cause he's burned in 1417 and Luther nails a thesis in 1517.

• 32:56Speaker 04

  This is bollocks, let's be real.

• 32:58Speaker 05

  Well, it's Protestantism, so we've got to give it its due. I mean, it's, it's fact based.

• 33:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 33:02Speaker 05

  It's not voodoo nonsense.

• 33:03Speaker 04

  Right.

• 33:04Speaker 05

  So we should also, before we get to Luther, talk about the printing press.

• 33:08Speaker 04

  Right.

• 33:09Speaker 05

  Uh, because that's central to this story.

• 33:10Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 33:11Speaker 05

  A guy called Gutenberg, it's not Steve Gutenberg, uh, he invents a, does he invent the printing press? I think printing presses are around a bit beforehand.

• 33:20Speaker 04

  Well, there's some in China, I think. Bollocks.

• 33:24Speaker 05

  Bollocks. Um, yeah, China, Korea.

• 33:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 33:28Speaker 00

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• 34:57Speaker 05

  But Johannes Gutenberg invents the first-

• 34:59Speaker 04

  But they're printing octopus porn over there. Like, they're not using it for-

• 35:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, you're right. Yeah. But then it's, what is it, about porn breeds invention?

• 35:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's always, at the forefront of new technologies, always pornography.

• 35:12Speaker 05

  Porn and takeaway?

• 35:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:13Speaker 05

  Because it's blokes running it. I want that guy to send me food while I watch porn without getting up from my chair.

• 35:20Speaker 04

  While I watch porn about a delivery guy-

• 35:22Speaker 05

  Getting fucked.

• 35:22Speaker 04

  Getting fucked. With him getting fucked.

• 35:25Speaker 05

  So Gutenberg press is invented in the 1450s. The Gunenburg press. Gutty stuff.

• 35:31Speaker 04

  That's nice, yeah.

• 35:31Speaker 05

  Middle that, yeah. 1450s, by Johannes Gutenberg in Mainz in Germany. And he's the one who first prints a German translation of the Bible. In the, in the blue beginning.

• 35:46Speaker 04

  I thought Luther did the first translation. Oh no, he did it from the original Greek. Right, right, right.

• 35:51Speaker 05

  So the Bible, remember the Bible's in Latin and all the clergy can only read Latin because everyone's thick.

• 35:55Speaker 04

  They paywalled it.

• 35:56Speaker 05

  They pay, yeah, they patroned it. Yeah. So I suppose the, the equivalent would be Luther, one of our sort of horrible smelly patrons. He, he stands up and says, well, hang on, all these episodes that are archived should be for everyone.

• 36:10Speaker 04

  It's, it's, yeah, it's get, well, it's sort of like getting cancelled for what you've said behind the paywall. That's what, he's gone in there and saying, what the fuck are you guys been doing in here?

• 36:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's a fair point. It's a fair point, actually. Yeah.

• 36:23Speaker 04

  As we will eventually, someone will be like, some, one of the wrong, it will fall into the wrong hands and they'll look through the patron episodes.

• 36:28Speaker 05

  Oh, we're cooked. I'm absolutely cooked. Yeah. It's all there. If you're looking for it, guys, it's all there. It's all there. We're all finished. So, uh, yeah, the Gutenberg press, uh, you know, he's the first one that makes it into German. So people start reading.

• 36:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:43Speaker 05

  Which, uh.

• 36:45Speaker 04

  Everyone's doing their own research and doing your own research, even the modern conspiracy theorists, which is kind of mainly in America, but we have a lot in Britain. David Icke, it's more of an Anglosphere thing.

• 36:55Speaker 05

  You're saying this is the long road to Holocaust denial?

• 36:58Speaker 04

  The act of being a conspiracy theorist has Protestant sort of.

• 37:02Speaker 05

  Question everything.

• 37:03Speaker 04

  Question, do your own research.

• 37:04Speaker 05

  Do your own research.

• 37:05Speaker 04

  Your view of the world is truth.

• 37:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's just my relationship.

• 37:08Speaker 04

  It's not what you're being told.

• 37:10Speaker 05

  No.

• 37:11Speaker 04

  That's why America, which is a Protestant philosophical country, is so sceptical of any sort of state, anybody telling them it's no, it's me or my ranch, what I believe on my forum.

• 37:21Speaker 05

  My relationship with the Holocaust.

• 37:24Speaker 05

  I don't care what you say happened. I have my own relationship to it. And through my relationship, I will achieve salvation or jail time. Basically, uh, there's also Gutenberg, Gooning, Gooningberg. There's a theory that as people read, their IQ goes up because there's a book coming out by a guy called James Marriott, who I really like, writer, who, uh, says that he's, there's data now that IQ is going, is starting to go down because reading is going down because everyone's just Gooning.

• 37:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:51Speaker 05

  So let's get to Luther, uh, who is the, yeah, Tom Holland says he's the most important guy ever.

• 37:56Speaker 04

  Well, the, of the last 600 years. And what was interesting about what would Tom Holland do, this is his sort of expertise. He, I think he was implying that what makes him so special as a figure is. The revolution wouldn't necessarily have happened without him, which I don't know if I agree with.

• 38:12Speaker 05

  No, because John Goose had done it.

• 38:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, Goosey had done it, but basically that it was, it wasn't just a natural thing that was going to happen. It was Martin Luther who really happened, as a historic figure, made it happen.

• 38:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, so he's a, well, I guess because he's charismatic and he forces it through.

• 38:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:33Speaker 05

  So Luther is born into a sort of an upwardly mobile family. His dad is, what's his dad, a farmer or something, some shit. Anyway, he was a merchant, maybe. But.

• 38:43Speaker 04

  Copper miner.

• 38:43Speaker 05

  Copper miner and smelter. All right. So neither of those things. He owns the mine and so he basically raises the family up to become middle class.

• 38:51Speaker 04

  All of these people, these great historic figures are, their dad is like petit bourgeois or owns something. It's Mao, it's Lenin.

• 39:00Speaker 05

  My son, my son's going to grow up to be a terrible, terrible man. A terrible man. We can't know what depths he will plummet to. We started potty training him and this weekend he, he said, I need to pee. And I went, all right. And I turned my head around and he peed everywhere around the potty. Then he went, oh, slip. And he just started rolling around in this piss.

• 39:20Speaker 04

  And so do you think that's going to be a symbolic of how he treats?

• 39:22Speaker 05

  I think he will make a severe rupture with the Anglican church at some point. You know, he's clearly got a lot of theology.

• 39:28Speaker 04

  Right, yeah.

• 39:30Speaker 05

  So his dad's called Luda, but he modified it to Luther, or Martin did, to try and make him sound.

• 39:36Speaker 02

  Luda.

• 39:38Speaker 04

  Luda.

• 39:38Speaker 05

  His dad was called Halord Luda. And so he was, he's like trained to become a lawyer, I think. But then he, and his dad really wants him to become a lawyer. But he at some point has these like, he goes to Erfurt to study law. But he calls the place a beer house and a whorehouse, but that's a bad thing.

• 40:02Speaker 04

  Okay, yeah, it's not a positive.

• 40:04Speaker 05

  It's fucking great. But in 1507, he abandons law and gets ordained as a priest. Now, there are three stories as to why he does this. So his friend, Hieronymus Bunz.

• 40:19Speaker 04

  This is amazing. Hieronymus is an awesome name.

• 40:21Speaker 05

  Hieronymus Bunz, yeah.

• 40:23Speaker 04

  We need to bring Hieronymus back.

• 40:24Speaker 05

  I think it'd be very funny for you to call your son Hieronymus.

• 40:28Speaker 04

  Just to kind of.

• 40:29Speaker 05

  Outflank yourself.

• 40:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, I might go back to John's because my whole family has been John, John, John, John, John, Horatio, John.

• 40:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, but that's narcissistic to do that. I think it's funnier to actually.

• 40:41Speaker 04

  Keep going, Hieronymus.

• 40:42Speaker 05

  Because what's Hieronymus is something to be called.

• 40:47Speaker 05

  So he dies and then so he gets really sad and then starts to commit his life to the church. Then he also has an accident with a sword and severs an artery in his leg. And while he's bleeding out, he's going, oh, Mary, help. And then he reaches a doctor, but it bursts open again. And so he calls on the Virgin Mary to save him and then he does survive. I guess this is the time where, you know.

• 41:11Speaker 04

  Very superstitious time.

• 41:12Speaker 05

  Yeah. So if you say something out loud and it happens, then you're like, oh, right.

• 41:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:16Speaker 05

  But then the famous one is that he gets caught in a storm in 1505 and he's scared because.

• 41:24Speaker 04

  I mean, this is something that a lot of people have done. I think we've all, you know, if you're scared, you briefly become religious and say, I promise.

• 41:31Speaker 05

  There's a great, there's a great Patriceon Albert about how he's only religious on a plane.

• 41:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:35Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 41:35Speaker 04

  I promise I'll become a devout thing if you just let me know.

• 41:38Speaker 05

  He's getting on the plane. He's like, oh, let me help you with your bag. And as soon as he plays Nans, he's like, nah, fuck off.

• 41:45Speaker 05

  So there's a storm happening and this is all in, is it Saxony, I think, which is sort of a big part of south.

• 41:51Speaker 04

  North, right?

• 41:52Speaker 05

  Germany. Is it North Germany?

• 41:53Speaker 04

  I thought so.

• 41:54Speaker 05

  Where is Saxony? Let me just get my bearings.

• 41:56Speaker 04

  It's below Denmark, I believe.

• 41:58Speaker 05

  It's east.

• 41:59Speaker 04

  Oh, no, it's not. It's south.

• 42:00Speaker 05

  No, it's kind of, it's above Bavaria Saxony. Yeah. East Germany, really. On the border with, I guess it's on the border with Prague, with Czech Republic. So it's near, it's near the goose and stuff. So he gets caught in a storm and he shouts, help, Saint Anna, I will become a monk. And eventually the storm stops and he becomes a monk.

• 42:19Speaker 04

  So he actually follows it through, third place then.

• 42:21Speaker 05

  He sort of becomes like an internet sensation professor.

• 42:27Speaker 04

  Right.

• 42:28Speaker 05

  Similar to Jordan Peterson.

• 42:30Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 42:30Speaker 05

  In that, like, that's kind of.

• 42:32Speaker 04

  Very much so.

• 42:33Speaker 05

  He's a sort of academic, but he's, he punches through into the mainstream.

• 42:37Speaker 04

  Right, yeah.

• 42:39Speaker 05

  So we need to talk about a guy called Frederick the Wise, who's the prince of Saxony. And he builds a university in Wittenberg in Saxony.

• 42:51Speaker 04

  Is that the university that Hamlet went to?

• 42:55Speaker 05

  Is it?

• 42:55Speaker 04

  Well, so when Shakespeare's writing, which is not long after this, Wittenberg, it's near where the printing press was. It was that university. Yeah, he went to.

• 43:04Speaker 05

  With his friends Horatio Rosen, Rosenkrantz.

• 43:06Speaker 04

  Rosenkrantz is what I should call, Rosenkrantz and Gildstone have had twins.

• 43:09Speaker 05

  Hieronymus Rosenkrantz Hall would be good.

• 43:13Speaker 05

  So, yeah, he found this university and then Luther becomes his sort of star academic.

• 43:20Speaker 04

  Right.

• 43:21Speaker 05

  Now Frederick the Wise, he's an elector and again, the Holy Roman Emperor has these electors that they choose the Pope.

• 43:28Speaker 04

  Right.

• 43:29Speaker 05

  So they have quite a lot of power in the system. And he, he loves relics, as we said earlier, so he's got 19,000 relics. So you can pay him to go and see twigs from Moses's burning bush, thorns from the crown of thorns, virgin's hair, dead babies, you name it, right?

• 43:51Speaker 04

  He's a comic book collector, sort of.

• 43:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 43:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:54Speaker 05

  He's a comic book guy.

• 43:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:55Speaker 05

  And so if, the Wittenberg is a major pilgrimage site. Okay, so between 1512 and 1518, Martin Luther is a professor of the Bible. So he gives lectures and he's always reading the scriptures.

• 44:12Speaker 05

  And he starts to get increasingly pissed off by indulgences. Because the Catholic Church at this point has gone mad, like it is so corrupt and.

• 44:25Speaker 04

  But also so much of the Catholic Church rituals, and this is the kind of philosophical understanding of Catholicism, is that over hundreds and hundreds of years, the church can develop rituals that become in themselves godly and divine. Because the Pope is speaking himself to God. So if the Pope says something, that can become scripture, that can become.

• 44:48Speaker 04

  Holy.

• 44:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 44:49Speaker 04

  And he's basically reading the original text and all of this stuff, none of it's in there.

• 44:54Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 44:54Speaker 04

  So he's just, I don't know why we're doing any of this.

• 44:55Speaker 05

  It's the first hum actually.

• 44:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:58Speaker 05

  Hum actually.

• 44:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's one of the biggest hum actuallys. It's one of the loudest hum actuallys. The whole of Europe heard him say hum actually.

• 45:04Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 45:05Speaker 04

  Hum actually.

• 45:06Speaker 05

  The hum actually that travelled around the world, Martin Luther. So in 1517, right, the church had, the Catholic Church had tasked a guy called Johann Tetzold, who is the Grand Commissioner for indulgences in Germany. That's his title. He was told to collect money because St Peter's Basilica needed a new roof. And Tetzold was a fucking, say it like he was a con man essentially.

• 45:34Speaker 04

  But it's the pros and cons of the Catholic Church. It's corrupt how they're getting it. They're extorting.

• 45:39Speaker 05

  But they're building.

• 45:40Speaker 04

  But they're building something. Now, we don't know about any of the shit eating peasants, but we do have, still have St Peter's Basilica. Do you know what I mean?

• 45:47Speaker 05

  That's true. That's true.

• 45:50Speaker 05

  But there's also, there's no corruption and there's shit roofs here, but you know, it's fine.

• 45:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:56Speaker 05

  Isn't it?

• 45:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah, I guess so. But you know, it'd be nice to have some nicer buildings.

• 46:01Speaker 05

  Would you rather, like ultimately, you could go, would you rather go to the Wetherspoons in an old Art Deco cinema?

• 46:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:09Speaker 05

  Or a flat roof pub, which was cheaper?

• 46:13Speaker 04

  Or get with your dad. Or get with your dad.

• 46:16Speaker 05

  Well, that's not, why is that relevant?

• 46:18Speaker 04

  I've just thrown some kind of. I'd probably go to the old Art Deco cinema, right?

• 46:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 46:25Speaker 04

  Wouldn't you? I'd get with my dad.

• 46:26Speaker 05

  I'd sort of say it's, you know.

• 46:27Speaker 04

  You don't give a fuck.

• 46:28Speaker 05

  Whatever's nearest.

• 46:31Speaker 05

  So Tetzold claims that his indulgences are so effective that even if someone had raped the Virgin Mary, he would be assured complete remission from purgatory.

• 46:40Speaker 04

  Right.

• 46:40Speaker 05

  So that, I mean, that is pretty, this is the thing about Catholicism, is that it does, it does sort of encourage sin.

• 46:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, because you can get out of it.

• 46:50Speaker 05

  Because you can get out of it.

• 46:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:51Speaker 05

  Right?

• 46:51Speaker 04

  And it's like, it gives you unattainable moral standards. Don't wank.

• 46:56Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 46:56Speaker 04

  No sexual marriage, stuff like that. And so then it's just kind of really encouraging you to be on edge.

• 47:04Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:04Speaker 04

  And guilty and shameful.

• 47:05Speaker 05

  But also like, if you go, oh brilliant, well, that's almost, you know, you say, oh, if you rape the Virgin Mary, you can get out of it. Then, then that will encourage you to go, well, great, well then I'm gonna rape the Virgin Mary.

• 47:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm sorry. Sorry, did that.

• 47:19Speaker 05

  Yeah. Can I buy that now?

• 47:20Speaker 04

  Ten Hail Marys.

• 47:21Speaker 05

  It's basically a rape the Virgin Mary pass.

• 47:23Speaker 04

  Right.

• 47:24Speaker 05

  I mean, my, uh, the Catholic funeral I went to was my, uh, ex-girlfriend's father, who I never met because he, they had a restraining order out against him. Because he was Catholic, right? Catholic Irish.

• 47:35Speaker 04

  Right.

• 47:35Speaker 05

  And, um, he would basically, he would treat his family awfully, but then he would just, stories of like on the way to school. Uh, he'd just open the car door and just, uh, pick up a homeless guy and say, let's give him a lift. And then make my ex-girlfriend just sit in the back with her sisters and be like, oh, you know, doing a good deed.

• 47:56Speaker 04

  Oh, right.

• 47:57Speaker 05

  Because it's like.

• 47:58Speaker 04

  Karma.

• 47:58Speaker 05

  Yeah. And then, you know, he's been awful at home, but he's given the homeless guy a lift. The homeless guy, by the way, didn't want the lift.

• 48:04Speaker 04

  Whereas.

• 48:05Speaker 05

  He actually, he wanted to stay, he had quite a good spot outside the front of BHS. My point is this guy.

• 48:10Speaker 04

  But he's forcing him in to try and get his own points up.

• 48:12Speaker 05

  Oh, come on, get in the car now, would you? Come on, you know, because he's, he's, he is seeing, you know, his life through a series of like spiritual transactions.

• 48:20Speaker 04

  And then like the, uh, the ultimate counteraction is when it, when we'll come to Calvin, who basically says, you're either a sinner or not, you have no choice. You have no choice. You're fucked or not.

• 48:30Speaker 05

  Calvin's my goat.

• 48:31Speaker 04

  But doesn't Calvin basically say it's predestination?

• 48:33Speaker 05

  Hashtag my president.

• 48:34Speaker 04

  From when you're born, all of your sin is already counted up. So you're, you're already going to hell.

• 48:39Speaker 05

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 48:40Speaker 04

  There's nothing you can do.

• 48:41Speaker 05

  No, no, no. You can prove, you can prove, there's nothing you can do, but there are signs that you are predestined.

• 48:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:48Speaker 05

  Um, so, uh, yeah, Johann Tetschel is basically giving, um, you know, rape passes out. And, uh, Luther goes, I don't know about this. Uh, and Tetschel maybe comes to Saxony, I think, uh, and, uh, starts selling it. And it's like a fucking travelling circus.

• 49:05Speaker 04

  Right.

• 49:06Speaker 05

  Um, so this, what's the thing? Does he has a thing about, he has a saying like, oh, if there's coffers in the coin. Oh, yeah, I don't know. It rhymes. Again, I'm Protestant, so I don't, I don't really have any poetry. Uh, rhyming. What do you mean? Why are you rhyming? Just say what you mean.

• 49:27Speaker 05

  In 1517, Tetsal's knocking about and Luther is going, do you know what? I think this is all bollocks. I can't remember what bit of the Bible he's reading where he has this revelation. But he's like, oh, this is actually what this is about. It's not about the Catholic Church.

• 49:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:42Speaker 05

  About the church, rather. So he, he then writes these 95 theses.

• 49:48Speaker 04

  White guy with a manifesto, basically.

• 49:50Speaker 05

  It's the first manifesto. Oh, that's what it is. As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs.

• 49:57Speaker 04

  Right.

• 49:58Speaker 05

  Nonsense.

• 49:59Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 50:00Speaker 05

  So he writes, on 31st of October, 1517, he writes to Bishop Albrecht to protest this. And the letter is actually called the Disputation on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences, but that becomes the 95 theses. And he's basically saying-

• 50:15Speaker 04

  So the 95 theses is-

• 50:16Speaker 05

  A letter.

• 50:17Speaker 04

  About indulgences.

• 50:18Speaker 05

  Yes. That's all it is, actually, initially. That's all it is.

• 50:20Speaker 04

  That's interesting.

• 50:21Speaker 05

  And supposedly, there's this great tale that he nails it to the door of a church in Wittenberg, but apparently, Ham actually didn't.

• 50:29Speaker 04

  Right.

• 50:29Speaker 03

  Why does the Pope, whose wealth today is greater than the wealth of the richest castes-

• 50:33Speaker 05

  It's not Martin Luther King.

• 50:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 50:36Speaker 05

  Have you just found that out? I have a dream.

• 50:41Speaker 04

  That we will not pay indulgences to get into heaven.

• 50:44Speaker 03

  This church will look way more boring.

• 50:48Speaker 05

  Yeah, so it's not Martin Luther King, but, but, uh, so Martin Luther, does he nail it to a church door? We don't actually know. Some people say it doesn't.

• 50:56Speaker 04

  Martin Luther Monk, Martin Luther-

• 50:59Speaker 05

  Hashtag my king.

• 51:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:00Speaker 05

  Hashtag Martin Luther sleigh king. Cooking. Cooking. Martin Luther cooking.

• 51:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:07Speaker 05

  But anyway, so I think what he does actually is he just writes some letters to some bishops to try and spark debate.

• 51:13Speaker 04

  He's encouraging, he's playing devil's advocate. He's, he's encouraging-

• 51:16Speaker 05

  The first guy to play devil's advocate.

• 51:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:18Speaker 05

  This is your dad.

• 51:19Speaker 04

  Debate me. It's debate me guy.

• 51:20Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 51:20Speaker 04

  He's going to uni campuses and saying-

• 51:22Speaker 05

  Charlie Cook.

• 51:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:23Speaker 05

  It's the first Charlie Cook. It is. The first Charlie Cook.

• 51:26Speaker 04

  Yeah. He's using truth and logic to-

• 51:29Speaker 05

  He is to destroy-

• 51:30Speaker 04

  To destroy liberals.

• 51:32Speaker 05

  Yes, the Catholic Church are a bunch of libtards.

• 51:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:34Speaker 05

  And Luther has destroyed them.

• 51:36Speaker 04

  With this whole story on both sides, the right and the left, like the modern way that discourse happens, so much of it does start here. Canceling excommunication, virality, you know, all this stuff. Claiming someone's a heretic, that all kind of, you can see that today, basically.

• 51:52Speaker 05

  So, on the 15th of June, 1520, Pope Leo X sends Luther a papal bull, which is like a, just a, I don't know why it's called that, but it's just like a-

• 52:03Speaker 04

  Does it, does it look like a bull?

• 52:05Speaker 05

  It's just an order.

• 52:06Speaker 04

  Or is it just like a letter?

• 52:06Speaker 05

  It's like an order, isn't it?

• 52:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:08Speaker 05

  It means blob in Italian. What's your, so my wife's on the bull? I quite like that, actually.

• 52:16Speaker 05

  My wife on the fucking bull. She's been really angry because she's riding a bull.

• 52:23Speaker 05

  Right, so-

• 52:23Speaker 03

  It's also red, isn't it?

• 52:25Speaker 05

  Oh, red rag to a blob. Yeah, is that what that means?

• 52:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:30Speaker 05

  Tampon to a, tap onto a blob, red rag to a bull?

• 52:33Speaker 04

  We can't, no.

• 52:34Speaker 05

  Anyway, so Pope Leo sends, sends a blob to Luther-

• 52:40Speaker 04

  Blob in a letter.

• 52:41Speaker 05

  Saying, "Recant your ideas in 60 days or you will be excommunicated", which means cut out from the, cut out from the church. And Luther, we haven't really talked about Luther's personality, but maybe we'll do that in the next episode, but he's-

• 52:54Speaker 04

  We'll do that properly in the next episode, but it's interesting, Martin Luther, he's such an important figure, but I don't think that he's known that much with people like-

• 53:01Speaker 05

  I didn't realise how pooey he is. He's like Gandhi, he's so obsessed with shit.

• 53:06Speaker 04

  It's another revolution done from the toilet.

• 53:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, it is, yeah.

• 53:09Speaker 04

  Which will get, it's, the stuff he writes is absolutely insane.

• 53:13Speaker 05

  It's crackers.

• 53:13Speaker 04

  But we, it's, we don't, no one, for such an important figure, it is weird that no one has any, the average person wouldn't have like an understanding of what he, like, what's in the stereotypes, they know nailing to the door, maybe.

• 53:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 53:24Speaker 04

  But there's nothing about his personality that has travelled through.

• 53:27Speaker 05

  Everyone, certainly where we are, is a descendant-

• 53:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 53:32Speaker 05

  -of his actions psychologically.

• 53:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 53:33Speaker 05

  More Calvin than Luther, but we'll get into that, but, yeah. So Luther gets the papal bull and he sets fire to it publicly, because he's a showman. Yeah, he sets fire to a burning tampon in December 1520. And then in 21, in January, Pope Peter the 10th excommunicates him proper. And his work is banned. And so he gets ordered to attend the Diet of Worms.

• 54:01Speaker 04

  And a diet means a meeting.

• 54:02Speaker 05

  Yes. And Worms is a place.

• 54:04Speaker 04

  Yeah. The Diet of Worms.

• 54:06Speaker 05

  Yeah. It's not Charlie's breakfast. Fucking dog food, right? So this will be a big crunch point because it should be said that Luther has gone viral.

• 54:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 54:22Speaker 05

  Right, his 95 theses, he means it just to be a discussion amongst academics. But it goes properly viral because of the printing press and it's in German. So he is the first viral video. Why are you pray?

• 54:39Speaker 05

  So he's got a lot of followers and he's getting quite cocky. He's Jordan Peterson. He's destroying people in public.

• 54:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 54:45Speaker 05

  With truth and logic. And so the Pope excommunicates him and then orders a showdown, like a big debate. Charlie Kirk versus Hassan Piker.

• 54:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 54:53Speaker 05

  We're gonna thrash this out.

• 54:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 54:55Speaker 05

  And the Diet of Worms will cement Luther's reputation.

• 54:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 54:59Speaker 05

  And we're gonna get to that in the next episode, which is already on our Patreon, where for £3 a month, you get instant access.

• 55:06Speaker 04

  If you pay some indulgences.

• 55:07Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 55:07Speaker 04

  You will be allowed safe passage to heaven.

• 55:10Speaker 05

  Yeah, my farts in a jar are there.

• 55:12Speaker 04

  If you've sinned, pay £3 a month.

• 55:14Speaker 05

  And you've sinned.

• 55:16Speaker 04

  Your sins will be washed clean for simply £3 a month.

• 55:20Speaker 05

  No one's really washing of the Patreon, but yeah, your sins will be absolved. You know, when you told your mum to fuck off, just basically. The £3 a month is basically a toning for you telling your mum to fuck off.

• 55:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 55:30Speaker 05

  So that's on the Patreon, along with the entirety of this four-part series. And our bonus episodes this fortnight will be releasing our live show on the JFK assassination, recorded at the Hackney Empire.

• 55:44Speaker 05

  That'll be on This Week Night at some point. And there's a whole host of bonus episodes. So that's on the Patreon. But if not, we'll see you on Thursday for the continuation of the greatest event in world history, the Reformation and the holy man that is Martin Luther. Until then, goodbye.

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• 57:17Speaker 03

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.