Pod Insights Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee BITESIZE | How To Stay Calm, Connected And In Control During Difficult Conversations | Jefferson Fisher #627 About this episode Most of us spend our lives in conversation – yet very few of us are ever taught how to communicate well. Whether it’s with our partners, colleagues, family or friends, we often assume that being heard is the same as being understood. But true communication isn’t just about the words we use – it’s about the tone, timing and energy behind them.
Feel Better Live More Bitesize is my weekly podcast for your mind, body, and heart. Each week I’ll be featuring inspirational stories and practical tips from some of my former guests.
Today’s clip is from episode 571 with trial lawyer, sought after public speaker and author of the book, The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More - Jefferson Fisher
Jefferson believes that better communication can transform not only our relationships, but our health and happiness as well.
In this clip, he shares the three essential principles to better communication, and how to shift from reaction to reflection by making your first word your breath.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:28 Rangan Chatterjee? Welcome to Feel Better Live More Bite Size, your weekly dose of positivity and optimism to get you ready for the weekend. Today's clip is from episode 571 with Jefferson Fisher, trial lawyer, public speaker and author of The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More. Jefferson believes that better communication can transform not only our relationships, but our health and happiness as well. And in this clip, he shares the three essential principles to better communication and how to shift from reaction to reflection by making your first words your breath.
2:15 Rangan Chatterjee? In your view, what are some of the common things that get in the way of people communicating effectively?
2:23 Speaker 01 Lots. The number one would be they assume that what is said is what was received in that instance. So if I were to tell you something, and we've felt this in relationships, we've felt this at work, you send a message and they hear and they feel something very different. Maybe in an email, you wrote something and all of a sudden they go, "Why are you mad at me?" You go, "I'm not mad." Or you're talking and somebody says, "Why are you yelling?" You go, "I'm not yelling," or "I'm not upset." And so we feel these instances where what we thought we said is not as what is received on the other end. So there's that kind of miscommunication.
3:02 Speaker 01 Now, there's also just the difficultness of being open and receptive in the moment. Or we don't want to listen, so we're the ones not wanting to receive anything. We're the ones that are getting defensive. And on top of that, we often feel that conversation, especially disagreements, instantly become a competition where we want to win. We want to dominate, we want to compete. And those are recipes for a bad conversation, real quick.
3:31 Rangan Chatterjee? Yeah.
3:34 Rangan Chatterjee? You've got great information to share, but it's not just what you're sharing, it's how you're sharing it. There's a calmness, there's a friendliness. And I think, going back to what you said about what are the obstacles to good communication, basically what you're hearing is the tip of the iceberg. There's something going on beneath that.
3:55 Speaker 01 Yes. The person you see is often not the person you're talking to. Meaning, I'm talking to you right here, but I don't know the struggles you're having. I don't know if you had a difficult time this morning with the wife, or the kids, or anybody. And that's the same for anybody we meet. And how we talk to them in that moment, how we hear them in that moment, often is a reflection of a lot of other influences, rather than just saying, "How dare they say that to me," without ever questioning, "Why would they say that? Where is this coming from?" There's always a surface and a depth to anybody.
4:32 Rangan Chatterjee? Yeah. Your book has these three core principles of how we can communicate better and have better conversations, right? Say it with control, say it with confidence, and say it to connect.
4:46 Speaker 01 That's right.
4:46 Rangan Chatterjee? Can you go through those three things step by step and help us understand what exactly they mean and also how we can start to apply them when we're having conversations?
4:58 Speaker 01 Rule one is say it with control. And what that is in a nutshell is rather than trying to control the other person when you're having a difficult conversation, which is typically the default. That's our gut urge is to control you. Where you actually find success is controlling yourself. So instead of trying to control them, what you do is control yourself. That's going to begin always a better conversation. Two is saying it with confidence, meaning how to find your assertive voice. People often feel like confidence is something they need to have before the conversation. They're saying, well, I'm kind of working up the confidence to say this. That's wrong. Confidence is not what you have before the conversation. Confidence is the outcome. It's a feeling.
5:42 Speaker 01 It's the same thing if I said, hey, look, I need you to be sad right now, sad as you've ever been with me right now. There wouldn't be anything to trigger that, to force that. Or if I said, I need you to be mad right now, there's nothing to do that. But if I were to hit you in the shoulder out of nowhere, you might be, now you can be mad. Why? Because it came from something. How you create the confidence is using your assertive voice. So I teach confidence is as assertive does. Three, rule three, is you say it to connect. Connection is two components. There's understanding and acknowledgement. I can understand you if you say something, but if I don't acknowledge you, you're not going to feel connected to me.
6:23 Speaker 01 At the same time, if I can acknowledge you, but I don't really understand it, I'm not going to connect with you. And so you have to have these two components of understanding and creating connection in conversation by saying what you mean and meaning what you say.
6:39 Rangan Chatterjee? Yeah. You know, as you were describing control there. For me, looking at it a different way, it was internal v external. Right? So in general, in life, we have limited control on externalities. We've got a lot more control on what's going on internally.
6:59 Speaker 01 Right.
7:00 Rangan Chatterjee? And therefore, if we apply that to what you just said, you know, if you're trying to control somebody else or manipulate what they say, you know, that is actually outside your control. Now, you may argue that if you can communicate well and calmly and in a grounded fashion, you are actually influencing what they say, which is very clear from your work. But I love the idea that it's about gaining control over ourselves. Because I guess another way of looking at it, or I'd love your perspective on this, is it's clear to me that we see the world through the state of our nervous system. Right? So if we're stressed, we're going to interpret emails a certain way. Right? So people, for example,
7:45 Rangan Chatterjee? if they've had a well-rested weekend, they can read an email on Monday morning and be pretty calm when they read it. They could read that same email on a Friday afternoon after a busy week at work and interpret the email completely differently. The email hasn't changed. What's changed is the state of their nervous system. And I kind of feel that applies to communication whereby you're going to communicate, and you do write about this, you're going to communicate in a way that reflects the state of your nervous system. So if you're busy, stressed, tired, that unless you have a high degree of self-awareness, it's going to come out through your voice.
8:27 Speaker 01 Yes.
8:27 Rangan Chatterjee? Right? So that thing about control is like, this is about self-awareness and controlling ourselves, right?
8:34 Speaker 01 Right. It is this sense of any time we have disagreement, have that friction, the dissonance in a conversation, we quickly return to this state of competition. We want to win and we see it as a threat. Any little opinion that is different from our own, our body likes to treat it as a threat. We go, no, no, no, that's not, they need to agree with me. Because if not, then it doesn't feel comfortable. If not, then it feels like they're trying to undermine me. They're saying I'm wrong. I don't like to be wrong. I'm not wrong. And we start to try and control that narrative. No, no, no, I need to say something so compelling that you're going to have to agree with me. Or I'm going to say something that is so snappy,
9:16 Speaker 01 so clapback, so powerful, that you're going to go, oh, my gosh, you're so right. How could I ever imagine any other opinion than the one that you have? And so we try and force that. That's where we go wrong, is we try and force and control that conversation. Instead, when you start to control yourself, you also sound like you're in control. And those who sound like they're in control are the ones that are listened to and the ones that are, that lead. These are the ones that have the calm energy that people go, I don't know what they have, but I like it. That, you know, that sounds more reasonable. That's what's wild to me, is you say, what, what sounds reasonable? It's typically the person who just sounds with their voice more reasonable
10:01 Speaker 01 versus somebody who, the words matter far less to me than the way that you sound and the way that you make people feel. That's, that's the heart of the communication.
10:16 Rangan Chatterjee? Yeah. Now, what you just said was super powerful, right? So I imagine some people are going to hear that and be thinking about.
10:28 Rangan Chatterjee? The last disagreement they had with their partner.
10:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:32 Rangan Chatterjee? Or their spouse, right? That's often where people go to all their parents, whatever it might be, right? And what I love about how you teach this in this chapter is you talk about this three step process, right? Your first word is your breath, your first thought is a quick scan and your first conversation is a small talk. Can we focus a little bit on breathing through the lens of conflicts and communication? And the importance of the breath when we're communicating?
11:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, anybody who's listening and loves your podcast, which you have an amazing podcast, by the way, is that the breath, they're familiar with that. They know the benefits of it. What I'm going to encourage them to do is understand the benefits of your, your actual conversation, how you can use the breath in your communication to lead to better outcomes. What happens in disagreements is we tend to hold our breath. In fact, I would even be willing to say that a lot of people will hold their breath more than they think. They might be very stressed out, maybe they're overwhelmed at work, they're scrolling through emails or listening to it. You might be listening to us right now while you're driving and you're worried about your workday and you're holding your breath without you thinking about it. And what happens, it puts you in a low grade state of anxiety.
11:51 Speaker 01 You might all of a sudden go, you realize, oh, I'm not breathing. And your body's telling you that you're feeling like you're, you're drowning in some sense. Cause in a, in a way you are kind of suffocating yourself. Well, breath and communication slows things down. If you want to control the moment, if you want to sound like you have more control and you want to have more better control over the outcome, the influence of it, let your breath be the first word that you say, meaning wherever your first word would be in your response. Let's say you said something to me that I didn't like.
12:26 Speaker 01 Or really it could be anything, but something that's going to require actual thought, something above just the casual, how's it going, what's going on?
12:36 Speaker 01 We often just feel like I have to have that rapid response. I need to be right there. I need to step on the end of your sentence and I need to talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. Where the actual power is, is where the first word would be, I put a breath in its place. Why? Because it gives us time. When you slow things down, it controls the moment more. Which one sounds like somebody who's someone who you want to listen to and follow? Somebody who says, reacts and goes, "Look, I already told you, I'm not going to do that." "I already told you, I'm not going to do that." Same words.
13:19 Rangan Chatterjee? Yeah.
13:20 Speaker 01 Which one sounds like somebody you don't want to mess with? Which is one, somebody who sounds like, "You know, I could follow that guy," or "girl, I could follow this person." This is somebody who sounds balanced, grounded, in control.
13:32 Rangan Chatterjee? Yeah, there's a gravitas.
13:33 Speaker 01 Absolutely. Yeah, the first voice sounds like, "I'm grasping for control. I need it. Give it to me. I'm not in control. I need it." The other person sounds like, "No, no, no. I've never lost it. I'm right here."
13:44 Rangan Chatterjee? This also speaks to non-verbal communication, doesn't it? Because it's, it's what is the energy that I'm giving off as I'm having this conversation? Because people respond to energy, don't they? They respond to stress. Like people, you know, humans are a social species. We, we can mirror what's going on around us. Our nervous systems can respond to the nervous systems of the people around us. And so, you know, when you're able to, I guess, master your nervous system.
14:19 Speaker 01 Right.
14:19 Rangan Chatterjee? You know, maybe mass is too strong. I mean, if you can, amazing. At least gain some degree of control over it, your communication is automatically going to get better.
14:29 Speaker 01 Yes, because you never get emotionally flooded. I mean, we've had these arguments with people in our life, typically the ones we love most, where they become shouting matches. And to where you're shouting. And you don't even really know what you're saying at some point. It doesn't matter if it's logical or not. It doesn't matter if it makes sense. You just know you're reacting because there is a threat. You either want to, I mean, that's why our fists clench. Cause your body's ready to, ready to swing. You may not throw a punch, but you're gonna say a hurtful word. You, you want it to cut. You want that word to sting. Same thing. Or, or people who want to, if you've been on the phone and somebody just hangs up while you're talking, or they instantly wanna leave the room. That's the, that's the flight.
15:14 Speaker 01 You find that in every conversation that you have. And the person that controls their nervous system, which to me is the, the number one way to do that in conversation is your breath, because it slows things down. It keeps the analytical side engaged. You know this. And a lot of your listeners, of course, know this. It is something that can improve their conversation, because it never sounds like you're lost. It never sounds like you're unsure of yourself, or that you're grasping or desperate, that you've lost your sense of, of control.
15:46 Rangan Chatterjee? When you were talking about maybe you're in a difficult conversation, before you start reacting and just blurting out words.
15:51 Speaker 01 Right.
15:51 Rangan Chatterjee? You're saying that first word is your breath.
15:54 Speaker 01 Right.
15:54 Rangan Chatterjee? So you're, what, is that an inhale?
15:56 Speaker 01 Yeah, so it's, you would know this as a physiological sigh. It's where it's a double inhalation, where it's about three seconds into your nose, two seconds in again at the top, and then all out through your nose again. Now, we can do that in a sense of very exaggerated. And I'm not, not talking about the sigh of like what my five-year-old would do of like, uh, like not, not that type of, not that type of breath. But you want to be able to use it, and you can do it silently, anytime right before you say something that you need a catch a moment, or if somebody's saying something that's, you can tell you it's, you don't like, and you're getting worked up. You ever heard somebody like making an opinion, or saying something you don't like? And what happens? You, our bodies go.
16:40 Speaker 01 Like we, everything we don't like it, we kind of start to seize up. We start, we take a big breath. We're like, okay, I don't, I'm, I'm, I don't, I gotta, I gotta get ready. Cause why? We're about ready to unleash all of our, our words. And so when you hold your breath, that's why your breath has really nowhere to go except to yell.
16:58 Rangan Chatterjee? Yeah.
16:58 Speaker 01 Often it, it decreases communication. It's the same way of, you know how, uh, at least if you're trying to find directions and you're trying to find a house and you have blurry music, you have to like turn down the music so you can, you know, like, let me turn on this music so I can see. It's kind of that same mentality of when somebody's yelling, you can't really listen.
17:17 Rangan Chatterjee? Yeah. It's, it's this whole, we see the world through the state of our nervous system, right? That person said that thing that you didn't like. And if you start to react and hold your breath, which may be understandable.
17:29 Speaker 01 Yes.
17:29 Rangan Chatterjee? Right? You're changing the state of your nervous system. So everything is coming in with your focus is coming in, but you are getting prepared to fight. So of course the next words you say are going to come out with a certain energy. So I love that sort of idea that you make it's, and you, you know, that whole section that in, in that chat. So you do sort of walk people through how you can practice this breath and get to the point whereby you're doing it naturally in conversation, where the person doesn't even know that you're doing it.
17:59 Speaker 01 Yeah. And I'm happy to do it right now. If you want to.
18:01 Rangan Chatterjee? Okay. All right.
18:02 Speaker 01 So if you're listening right now, let's, let's, let's practice this. I call this a conversational breath. And it's a breath that you can use and nobody's really going to know that you're doing it. There's nothing special. It's just the, it's the choice to be intentional with your breath and let's do it together. So it's all going to be through your nose and it's going to be a double inhale, meaning we're going to inhale twice. Ready? So if you're listening, we're going to go three seconds in through your nose, two more at the top. And then all out through your nose. Now, just listening to us right now, your shoulders should have dropped just a little bit. You're going to feel just a little bit calmer. That's your go-to when somebody is saying something you don't like. Or you're about to respond. So right now, I want you, Rangan, to continue to do
18:45 Speaker 01 the conversational breath, and I'm going to continue to say some things to you. So, yes, I understand you have a podcast, and yeah, it's a health podcast. In fact, it's the number one health podcast in the world. But you know what? I don't know if you're doing as well as you need to. I mean, you could be these lights. Have you seen these cameras? I don't know if I even really like these, these microphones. Now, see, as you're talking to me right now, I see, I didn't even realize that you're breathing any differently than anybody else. And so anytime somebody's saying something that's agitating to you in that sense, it's allowing you to see the depth, right? It's allowing you to see the cause, rather than getting worked up and holding your breath to fight the symptoms.
19:20 Rangan Chatterjee? Yeah, it's amazing, because you're, you're slowing everything down, right? So, you know, using that analogy of being in the car again.
19:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
19:29 Rangan Chatterjee? If your car is going fast down the street, you're not going to be able to take everything in, right? Because everything's going back quickly. You slow down your car and go down the street, you can suddenly see everything clearly. Oh, I saw that number, I saw that number. You know, that's what going, there's a cat coming, whatever it might be, right? So when we slow everything down, our perspective is different. We see more clearly. So clearly, in a conversation.
19:53 Speaker 01 Yes.
19:54 Rangan Chatterjee? Especially a conversation that perhaps isn't going the way that you want it to.
19:58 Speaker 01 Right.
19:58 Rangan Chatterjee? If you're able to slow things down.
20:01 Speaker 01 Yes.
20:02 Rangan Chatterjee? You're going to be more present. You're gonna, you know, you're going to have that separation between the stimulus, the words you don't like, and the response you're about to give.
20:11 Speaker 01 Exactly. Time has a way of sifting out priority. We all know, we've had these moments in conversations that feel really intense with that friend at the cafe. The next day, you know what? That conversation really didn't matter all that much. Or a week goes by and you go, why did I ever react that way?
20:31 Rangan Chatterjee? But in the moment, you felt that it did.
20:33 Speaker 01 In the moment, it was everything. And then, or you get that email, you read that email at work, and you want to, it gets you all worked up, and you're ready to send that, that nasty response back. But something happens, and you go, you know what? I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna put this down. You read it again the next day? Yeah, that's not even worth my response.
20:51 Rangan Chatterjee? Exactly. Yeah, that's the power of silence and pause, right?
20:55 Speaker 01 Yes. I feel like we rush. All the time. I mean, I know I rush my, my sons sometimes. I'm like, all right, come on, get your shoes on. Come on, get your shoes on. We gotta go. To what? A kid's birthday party that's, you don't have to be on time for. I mean, it's, it's not the end of the world. Why do we always feel like we have to rush, rush, rush? There is something so beautiful about having a conversation with your best friend that has no time constraints, that has no rush. And you can say something and just like you said, you're able to just sit with it, land, let their words sit and just appreciate
21:38 Speaker 01 the moment that you're able to connect with someone. And beautiful, wonderful things happen when you simply slow down the conversation. And that's exactly, if you want to have better conversation, you slow it down. If you want to deal with difficult conversation, if you're really worried about a conversation you're about to have, slow it down. I promise you, you're gonna end up having a better outcome.
22:00 Rangan Chatterjee? I really love the idea that it's about that next conversation, you know? Just change your next conversation. Don't worry about the one next week or next month. Just, just focus on the next conversation.
22:12 Speaker 01 I don't want you to hear this episode and go, I guess they had got it all together, and I don't. We're always, we're always figuring out better ways to improve our, our life. There's one little quick trick that I'll give you, and it's because this is probably one of the most popular. When you feel like you have to disagree with somebody and you're a little hesitant on it, and you don't really feel, you need to feel like you tell them, hope, hope you're all well, or you feel like you need to be a little soft about it. You, what I would encourage you to say is instead of, I disagree, change it to, I see things differently. I see things differently. Ryan, you've already used this in our conversation today. And I think that's, you already did without even knowing you're doing it. That's how good you are.
22:56 Speaker 01 When you say, "I see things differently," you're using words of perspective. So words like, "look," "I look at it a different way." "I take another approach." "I see things differently." People won't get defensive. And it's a great way to start to hear the power of your own voice. If you want a better world, it begins with a better conversation.
23:16 Rangan Chatterjee? Yeah. Hope you enjoyed that bite-sized clip. Do spread the love by sharing this episode with your friends and family. And if you want more, why not go back and listen to the original full conversation with my guest? If you enjoyed this episode, I think you will really enjoy my bite-sized Friday email. It's called the Friday Five. And each week, I share things that I do not share on social media. It contains five short doses of positivity, articles of books that I'm reading, quotes that I'm thinking about, exciting research I've come across, and so much more. I really think you're gonna love it. The goal is for it to be a small, yet powerful dose of feel-good to get you ready for the weekend.
23:59 Rangan Chatterjee? You can sign up for it free of charge at drchattity.com/fridayfive. I hope you have a wonderful weekend. Make sure you have pressed subscribe. And I'll be back next week with my long-form conversation on Wednesday and the latest episode of Bite Science next Friday.
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