Inside Ukraine's Drone War: Maj. "Phoenix" of Lasar's Group

The first armed drone Ukraine ever fielded wasn't built in a factory or procured from a defense contractor. It was built in four months by a network engineer using a Starlink terminal and a large agricultural quadcopter frame, and the man who built it, Maj Phoenix, co-founder of Lasars Group, joins Craig Smith in Kyiv to explain exactly how it happened and what the battlefield looks like now. The conversation traces the full arc from that first prototype - with its two-person crew of pilot and navigator, operating beyond line of sight using satellite imagery and landmarks - to the layered drone architecture Lasars Group now operates: FPV drones on fiber optic covering 30 kilometers, heavy bombers reaching 65 kilometers, ISR planes surveilling the entire range, and interceptors protecting each crew position. The most unexpected part of this conversation is what drone technology has done to the physical shape of the war. As drone range has expanded - from rifles at 400 meters to FPV at 10 kilometers to heavy bombers at 65 kilometers - the kill zone between the two armies has grown to match, pushing human soldiers further apart and turning the conflict increasingly into drones fighting drones rather than people fighting people. Phoenix frames this explicitly as a reduction in human casualties. The episode also reveals a genuinely surprising institutional innovation: Ukraine's "Army of Drones Bonus" system, a gamified procurement platform where units earn virtual points for destroyed targets and spend them on a drone marketplace, creating competition among manufacturers to build cheaper, more effective systems and directing the best equipment to the highest-performing units. Craig also asks directly about the psychological reality of FPV warfare, following a specific soldier through a camera, watching him try to hide, and killing him, and Phoenix answers with a moral clarity that is both philosophically coherent and quietly unsettling. Subscribe to Eye on A. I. for weekly conversations with the people building and deploying the future of AI.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I create our first drone, I create first ISR plane. So, a skill zone, create war of drones, not war of humans. Drones, try to hit our drones.

• 0:09Craig S. Smith?

  That's better than humans.

• 0:11Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, it help us to save a human life. If I see enemy soldier, I understand that it's my enemy. It's not a human, it's enemy, and they are in our land.

• 0:21Craig S. Smith?

  It's the future for ground warfare.

• 0:24Speaker 00

  I think it's a future, big drones, many big planes, and drone is a future.

• 0:31Craig S. Smith?

  And why don't you introduce yourself to listeners? Some of your background, what you were doing before the war, how you got involved in that?

• 0:41Speaker 00

  My name is Yuri, my call sign is Phoenix. I'm a major of National Guard of Ukraine, of Lazarus Group unit.

• 0:50Craig S. Smith?

  And what were you doing before the war?

• 0:53Speaker 00

  I have my own IT business.

• 0:56Craig S. Smith?

  Oh, okay, great.

• 0:58Speaker 00

  From nineteen ninety-one, I started to work with computers and network technologies. And before war, I have my own IT company. I provide services for my customers. It was cloud service, virtualization, cybersecurity, computer networks, and so on.

• 1:24Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah, were you involved at all in AI before the war?

• 1:28Speaker 00

  Hmm, not AI, just modern network and computer technologies. So, all that related to computer networks, VPN tunnels, and maybe some electronic devices. It's my direction. I'm familiar with all of this. I know how it works, how I can use it, how I can combine the different devices to some

• 1:57Speaker 00

  some big projects, how to get result what I want.

• 2:01Craig S. Smith?

  Then how did you join Lazarus Group?

• 2:05Speaker 00

  From first days of full-scale invasion, I understand that I need to protect my country, to protect my city, to protect civilian from all of this. And I spent two days to move my family far away in safe place, and after that, I turned to Kiev. From maybe first day, I joined to local defense and start

• 2:44Speaker 00

  start my night shifts on nearest fortification, others want to get in Kiev.

• 2:53Craig S. Smith?

  Right, when they were coming in from Belarus?

• 2:55Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 2:56Craig S. Smith?

  Did you know him before?

• 2:59Speaker 00

  No, no. I had experience operating drones. In twenty ten, I built my first drone to expect buildings. At that time, I have one of big customer, and I support them by video surveillance system, security system, and computer networks. And I need to expect all these buildings from air. So, I create my, I build my first drone with GoPro camera

• 3:39Speaker 00

  to fly over this building and control cable systems and roof and all technical devices that located on these buildings.

• 3:55Craig S. Smith?

  I see.

• 3:56Speaker 00

  So, when war started, I understand what we need to use modern technologies, maybe drones to fly and destroy our enemy remotely.

• 4:09Craig S. Smith?

  Lazarus Group was the first to use drones, is that right? In, in, as, as a weapon? I mean, before that, there was reconnaissance drones.

• 4:20Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 4:22Craig S. Smith?

  But can you talk about when the decision was to arm the drones? And was that Lazarus Group that did that first? Or were there other units in the field that were experimenting?

• 4:33Speaker 00

  We get a first, I think, our drone was a first real weapon that can destroy enemy vehicles.

• 4:44Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 4:44Speaker 00

  And we show this result for everyone. And after that, I think our unit start using drones as a weapon. And our military understand that drone is a real weapon.

• 5:00Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah, because the first time people saw this was when the Russians were on the road from Belarus, I think. And there was a long convoy that was stopped. And, and then you started sending drones to destroy the tanks. Was that Lazarus Group?

• 5:25Speaker 00

  No, at that time, we have no drones at all, and only ISR drones, small drones like Mavic, DJI. We, we, other units who, who have such drones use this type of drones for reconnaissance, only, only. At that time, we have no devices that can damage tanks or other vehicles.

• 5:53Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah, I thought, I, I remember seeing tanks being hit on the, in that convoy, but...

• 6:02Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 6:02Craig S. Smith?

  Was that from drones or was that something else?

• 6:05Speaker 00

  No, our special forces do that.

• 6:07Craig S. Smith?

  I see, okay. When was, where was the first use of drones as a weapon?

• 6:14Speaker 00

  Maybe it was May twenty-two. Our first missions, successful missions, when we can hit some targets.

• 6:24Craig S. Smith?

  And what sector was that?

• 6:27Speaker 00

  Hmm, it was the Peria direction.

• 6:31Craig S. Smith?

  And what was the first technology? I, I remember reading that Lazarus developed a drop system.

• 6:42Speaker 00

  Our main idea, the main idea of our commander was operate remotely and destroy enemy vehicle.

• 6:52Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 6:52Speaker 00

  Like a tank or armored vehicle or anti-aircraft system, all type of enemy vehicles that can damage our military position. So, we start develop this project, how to do it remotely. And main idea to use satellites connection. So, we get our first Starlink and try to, to do some devices and try to create some software

• 7:30Speaker 00

  that can use this Starlink with big drones, big wide quarters.

• 7:40Craig S. Smith?

  Okay, but the, but the progression was, you started modifying DJI drones?

• 7:47Speaker 00

  No, no.

• 7:48Craig S. Smith?

  They were from the beginning, home Ukrainian built?

• 7:53Speaker 00

  We create a technology, how we can interconnect Starlink with, generally speaking, with flight controller inside big agriculture drone. After that, start, we want to find, manufacture big frames, big drones, agriculture, and ask to install our special devices with Starlink on this drone to get ability to operate manually. And we spent maybe more than four months to create a first prototype of this drone.

• 8:37Speaker 00

  After that, they start using, use this drone on battlefield and try to do our first flights to destroy our first targets.

• 8:52Craig S. Smith?

  So, I thought, so you were using Starlink beginning in twenty twenty-two?

• 8:58Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 8:59Craig S. Smith?

  A lot of the FPV drones, kamikaze drones are, are using radio link to, to the controller. Weren't you also using this radio link in some of the drones? Or is Lazarus specifically focused on satellite links?

• 9:23Speaker 00

  We focused on satellite links because we understand what we have, a lot of opportunities when we use satellite link. There is no limitation by landscape. We can fly far away, low altitude, as far as we can. Only one limitation is battery capacity.

• 9:46Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 9:47Speaker 00

  And we understand that drone that was very popular at that time can bring only one munition with, small munition. It's not enough to damage vehicle such as tank. So, we understand that we need to, to invent some device that can bring about five kilo of payload, not less than three units of this ammunition. And we understand that our primary targets is tanks, maybe artillery,

• 10:27Speaker 00

  or other enemy vehicles that can create a big damage for us.

• 10:35Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 10:35Speaker 00

  And we start work on direction that help us to increase range.

• 10:43Speaker 00

  And some, some maybe software upgrades that help our pilots to fly easy and control our drone in any situation when we have jamming or without GNSS, so we start flying manually. Only what we need, it's a connection to our drone to get picture from our camera and control. So our first step is it was one pilot, only one pilot for one drone.

• 11:22Speaker 00

  And after that, our pilot crew consists of two persons, a pilot and navigator. Navigator always know where our drone located because navigator look at the camera, compare with satellite maps or other information and using landmarks always know where we are and help pilot to correct direction of flying and help them to find this target that we need and help while pilot start aiming.

• 12:03Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 12:04Speaker 00

  So it control wind direction, wind speed and help to maybe calculate this

• 12:13Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 12:13Speaker 00

  this position where, when we start to do our first drop.

• 12:20Craig S. Smith?

  Okay, maybe for my audience, you can explain the different kinds of drones. There's FPV drones, which are

• 12:33Craig S. Smith?

  the pilot is looking through the camera of the drone, right?

• 12:40Craig S. Smith?

  Then there are interceptor drones to knock down other drones or aircraft.

• 12:48Craig S. Smith?

  And there are kamikaze drones, which have a warhead in them, have ammunition in them and fly into a target. That can be a kamikaze drone, right?

• 13:03Craig S. Smith?

  I mean, that can be an FPV drone.

• 13:05Speaker 00

  Yes, FPV drone is separate direction because it's very small and cheap. And I think the main goal of FPV drones is destroy small, small target, not armored target and enemy personnel. It's best for this tasks. And this drone can fly from short, for short distance. It's about maybe from 10 to maybe 20 kilometers.

• 13:34Speaker 00

  So FPV drone help us to control first part of frontline, nearest area and protect from enemy personnel and not armored vehicle like cars, like maybe fuel tanks and so on and fortified position of our enemy. Next step is heavy bombers that can fly far away and destroy enemy vehicle, enemy fortified position, enemy personnel and everything that they can find on a long distance.

• 14:18Speaker 00

  Kamikaze drone fly for longer distance. It's about 70, maybe up to 100 kilometers and can destroy any targets that it can find in that area. So I think the most important in all of this is ISR drones because they control this area, they can find targets and control of movement of this target before we can fly to that position to destroy this target. So.

• 14:54Craig S. Smith?

  I'm sorry, ISR means?

• 14:56Speaker 00

  ISR. It's a, it's a, mostly it's a plane with gimbal camera with zoom. And ISR drone main, main idea, they try to find our target, they control area, analyze pictures and try to remain tasks of this drone. So they fly and control special area where we can use our

• 15:32Speaker 00

  drones to destroy targets. The main idea, they, they need to find targets.

• 15:39Craig S. Smith?

  But you started with the heavy bombers, is that what you're saying? When did you start developing the armed FPV drones?

• 15:46Speaker 00

  First step is developing of heavy bombers with Starlink. And after that, when we have

• 15:56Speaker 00

  maybe more than 10 bombers and we start fly simultaneously on different direction from different position from our frontline, we understand what we need more targets. We need more information about targets because we can do more, we can destroy more targets. Only limitation for that time, it's information about our enemy, enemy position and location of this target. So we start to develop direction of ISR drones. Our first ISR drone was a plane, tall plane with camera,

• 16:40Speaker 00

  no, with photo, photo camera. And we fly along

• 16:51Speaker 00

  area of interest and after that get this pictures and try to find some enemy targets on these pictures. After that, we start develop this direction and create

• 17:06Speaker 00

  planes with video, video camera. So we start new, we create a new step because we have online connection to this camera and can control area of interest in real time. If we need to, if we understand what we have some target signature, we can, we can zoom in this area and understand what is this, is this tank or is this armored vehicle or any different type of target. So after that, we can create ISR unit inside our

• 17:52Speaker 00

  after that, they started develop the subunit of ISR drones and get more ISR planes.

• 18:06Speaker 00

  And that place start flying along all frontline. So next step was

• 18:18Speaker 00

  increasing number of crews. And all these crews was placed

• 18:29Speaker 00

  on all frontline. So every 10 kilometers now we have our ground crew with big bombers and every 20 kilometers, we have crew of ISR planes, ISR drones. So this ISR drones cover area up to 70 kilometers

• 18:55Speaker 00

  from borderline and our big bombers can, can fly up to 35 kilometers and they come back for load. And we have a special designed model that can fly

• 19:11Speaker 00

  one-way mission and distance of this flight is up to 65 kilometers.

• 19:18Craig S. Smith?

  What people in the West are most familiar with are the FPVs. Did you then develop FPVs or was that somebody else that developed the FPVs?

• 19:27Speaker 00

  All devices that we use, we developed. So we create a technical specification for manufacturers, send them this information and create an engineering team. And together we work on development of these devices. So after using in real battle condition, we give feedback for engineers of our manufacturers and ask them to do some changes if we need.

• 20:07Speaker 00

  And after that, together we examine results, they analyze maybe some technical information, telemetry logs and so on to understand how we can upgrade our drones, what we can do to fly on bigger distance or how we can help our pilots to be more effective, how to do the aiming process more simple.

• 20:39Speaker 00

  Now we have special design software that can help our pilots to hit

• 20:47Speaker 00

  targets when they moving.

• 20:49Craig S. Smith?

  When did you start using these smaller drones that are armed?

• 20:55Speaker 00

  As I mentioned before, our main goal is armored vehicle. But maybe

• 21:03Speaker 00

  one year ago, maybe.

• 21:07Speaker 00

  Maybe two years ago we started using FPV, because we understand that using big expensive drones to heat enemy personnel, it's not good.

• 21:19Craig S. Smith?

  Right, yeah.

• 21:20Speaker 00

  It's not effective. So we started using FPV to destroy all that they can find and maybe first 10 kilometers from frontline.

• 21:32Craig S. Smith?

  In your arsenal today, is it mostly heavy bombers? Is it mostly FPV? Is it mostly ISR? I mean, where do you stand in that? How do you divide up your resources?

• 21:53Speaker 00

  Now we use a different type of drones. This drone can cover a distance from maybe 10 kilometers up to 65 or 70 kilometers. So first of all, it's FPV. It's the first part of frontline. Maybe first... Now we're using fiber optics, so we can fly up to maybe 30 kilometers. So FPV covers first part of this area and mostly heat enemy personnel.

• 22:25Craig S. Smith?

  Right.

• 22:26Speaker 00

  After that, other part of this area covered by heavy bombers, up to 65 kilometers. All this area controlled by ISR planes. It help us to search target, confirm destroying of this target and control all this area. So we have interceptors that control area near our takeoff point to protect our crews from enemy ISR drones or enemy kamikaze drone or other enemy drones that can create some damage.

• 23:11Speaker 00

  And also we use kamikaze drones to strike different targets distance near 70 kilometers.

• 23:24Craig S. Smith?

  I mean, I know the Shahed drones that Russia has been using do not have very precise onboard targeting. And so they're given a target area and then they hit the area, but there's no... This is what I understand, no feedback to the controller. Is that right? I mean, how do the Shaheds work? And is... In the interceptors on the front lines, where you have these units based, are they...

• 24:09Craig S. Smith?

  What kind of interceptors are they? Are they FPV? Are they autonomous targeting? Or how does that work?

• 24:23Speaker 00

  Intercepters for Shahed is different type of drones, because they need to fly at very high speed.

• 24:31Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 24:32Speaker 00

  So interception of Shahed, it's a different... It's not related to tasks on frontline.

• 24:41Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 24:42Speaker 00

  So we have a special designed drones to intercept Shaheds. And we have experience how to do this. And now we increase the number of crews who work in this direction.

• 24:54Craig S. Smith?

  Incoming drones targeting Kiev, for example, that you're still using... Or you, the military, the Ukrainian military, is still using human-controlled machine guns to try and knock down those drones? That seems like a very difficult problem.

• 25:18Speaker 00

  Now we use all available devices and all opportunities how to intercept Shahed.

• 25:25Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah. Do you know anything about...

• 25:27Speaker 00

  Drones and machine guns and ground crews, everything that we can do.

• 25:34Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah. Do you... Are you familiar with Eric Schmidt's Swift Speed?

• 25:42Speaker 00

  Yes, I know about this project, but it's a different topic.

• 25:46Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah. Meaning it's too sensitive to talk about? Or it's...

• 25:51Speaker 00

  Now we talk about Lazar's. I know many interesting information about other units, other technologies, other devices, but I don't want to discuss this now.

• 26:02Craig S. Smith?

  And I was asking, so you have the heavy bombers first with ISR. You have interceptor drones around your units. And then you have FPV. Are the FPV together with the heavy bombers? Or are they spaced along?

• 26:21Speaker 00

  It's separated units. So it's a separate direction. We have a different direction. And we use a different type of drones for these tasks.

• 26:35Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah. And all of these drones to date are controlled through a screen. There's no autonomous targeting yet. Is there in the Lazar group arsenal? Or do you have autonomous targeting or even autonomous navigation?

• 26:59Speaker 00

  And now we use manual control, remote control mostly. Heavy bombers controlled remotely. It help our pilot be more efficient. They locate it and in quiet situation, they can concentrate on aiming, on flying. They not thinking... They don't need to thinking about their safety.

• 27:26Craig S. Smith?

  Right.

• 27:27Speaker 00

  It's more resultative. And other benefits, that one pilot can control drones on different directions if we need. So I think it's best what we can do.

• 27:45Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah, but I've talked to a lot of people who are developing AI navigation and AI targeting. I mean, the... The future is you send off 100 drones. They know where they're going. They have an onboard navigation. They have a camera with object recognition. And they recognize the target. This is all autonomously and destroy the target. You're not there yet. Is that right?

• 28:27Speaker 00

  Now we try to use manual control, because in any condition we know what we get result. Because all AI devices that help us to create this autonomous flight group of our drones. And now it's... I think it's not enough. The quality of this device is in the middle. So sometimes they can do what we want.

• 29:08Speaker 00

  And in kamikaze drones, usually used AI feature that can lock target and help pilot to hit this target. Because last miles, it's very hard to control. We lose our radio control with our drone because of limitation of landscape. And this AI system help us to fly directly to target and hit this target.

• 29:43Craig S. Smith?

  And that AI module, is that being produced in Ukraine? Or are you importing that?

• 29:54Speaker 00

  As I know, many manufacturers of this device create this device by themselves. They create a software. And this software work on small computers like Raspberry Pi or other small devices with camera. And this device analyze pictures from camera and try to find target signature. And after that, send control command directly to flight controller to operate this drone.

• 30:36Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah, because what I'm interested in is how artificial intelligence is entering the battlefield. But from everyone I talked to, it sounds like...

• 30:48Craig S. Smith?

  It's being tested, it's being developed, but it's not really being deployed. Am I wrong?

• 30:54Speaker 00

  This technology is deployed now and many manufacturers work on it and try to create new devices. So I think this technology is one of the most important technologies. So I think radio links, AI systems, and maybe battery technologies, it's a future of drones. Because battery capacity is limitation for distance. Yes, AI help us for aiming without interaction with pilot

• 31:37Speaker 00

  when we have no stable connection to drone. And radio link, radio control system help us to operate these drones when we need to fly to special area where our target located.

• 31:52Craig S. Smith?

  The fiber optic, you know, this unspooling thread that can go 30 kilometers or even 40 kilometers. Who developed that? When did that start?

• 32:03Speaker 00

  This technology comes from telecommunications. It's just a fiber. It usually covered other protected shell. Part of cable, the core of cable and next.

• 32:28Craig S. Smith?

  The covering, yeah. But when an FPV, it's just the fiber optic. It has no cover, is that right?

• 32:37Speaker 00

  I try to say it again. So fiber optics in FPV drones comes from telecommunications. So it's usual technology inside cables that bring internet to our homes. So manufacturers of fiber optics just create this big spools of these fibers without shells.

• 33:03Craig S. Smith?

  Right.

• 33:04Speaker 00

  So it's usual.

• 33:08Craig S. Smith?

  Right, but who had the idea to hook it up to a drone?

• 33:12Speaker 00

  I don't know who start this, but this technology help us to avoid jamming.

• 33:19Craig S. Smith?

  Jamming, yeah. Are the Russians also using fiber optic?

• 33:22Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 33:23Craig S. Smith?

  And they're also using Starlink?

• 33:26Speaker 00

  And they start using Starlink, yes.

• 33:29Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah. So it's kind of a race between Russian technologists and Ukrainian technologists?

• 33:37Speaker 00

  I think it's competition in technologies. So if we start using some technology after some time, when our drones was heated in enemy area, they get this drone, expect all inside and try to understand how it works. And after that, start using this type of technologies in their drones.

• 34:00Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:02Speaker 00

  So many people think that if someone talk about this public, some interview or after this information appears in public access in YouTube, our enemy after a few days start using it. It's not true, because they usually try to get our devices and understand how it works, how we can do this, analyze this. And only after that, after months, maybe they only try to use it.

• 34:42Speaker 00

  And if this usage have results, they try to scale it.

• 34:51Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah. Just the changing nature of warfare, you know. In the Middle Ages, it was swords and then bows and arrows, you know, which had a certain range. And then eventually, they developed, you know, guns, rifles, and then they developed machine guns. And the range keeps getting longer. I mean, what's the range of general issue assault rifle in the army? I don't know what guns you're using,

• 35:33Craig S. Smith?

  but what's the range for a weapon that a soldier is carrying today?

• 35:38Speaker 00

  I don't know, because our unit operates only drones.

• 35:41Craig S. Smith?

  Only drones, yeah.

• 35:42Speaker 00

  Drones, units. I think that drones, it's the highest level of evolution of all weapons.

• 35:47Craig S. Smith?

  That's right.

• 35:48Speaker 00

  For now.

• 35:49Craig S. Smith?

  And so the drones with 400 meters for Galashchenkov, okay. And now you're up to for FPV, 10 kilometers. And for fiber optic, 30 kilometers. For the heavy bomber drones, what, 60 to 100 kilometers? Is that right? I mean, it keeps on getting broader. So in that zone, this is people have been talking about, that's the kill zone.

• 36:25Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 36:26Craig S. Smith?

  So the personnel are outside on either side of the kill zone. Because to go into that zone is deadly.

• 36:37Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 36:38Craig S. Smith?

  Do you think that's a good thing? Because at least it creates a separation of the two armies.

• 36:49Speaker 00

  You mean the kill zone, it's good or not so good, yes?

• 36:54Craig S. Smith?

  And it's getting wider.

• 36:56Speaker 00

  So first of all, the distance between position that creates this range of kill zone depend on current technology. So this kill zone extended by new drone technologies. So I think the distance of this kill zone is maximum distance of drone flights. So for now, FPV drone can fly up to 30 kilometers on fiber optic. So it's a distance between position of drone operators.

• 37:32Speaker 00

  I think this kill zone help us to place our personnel far away from our enemy with our direction, with our direct contact.

• 37:48Craig S. Smith?

  Right.

• 37:49Speaker 00

  So it's, we have this kill zone create a war of drones, not war of humans. So drones try to hit other drones.

• 38:02Craig S. Smith?

  But that's better than humans.

• 38:05Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, it help us to save a human lives.

• 38:09Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah. I mean, when we were starting, I said I wanted to talk. Because with the FPV drones, are most of the pilots looking on a screen? Or are some wearing headsets?

• 38:22Speaker 00

  Some pilots using glasses.

• 38:29Craig S. Smith?

  Right.

• 38:30Speaker 00

  And many pilots using ground station with screens.

• 38:34Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah. And, you know, all of us in the West have watched, and I mean the West, meaning in North America, I have watched videos of FPV drones. It's, you're not in direct contact, but it's a very intimate weapon. Because you identify a soldier, you follow him as he tries to hide, and then you kill him. That must be very difficult for the operators.

• 39:18Craig S. Smith?

  And I know you said that's a sensitive topic, but can you talk at all about how the, how, I mean, have you been a drone operator as well? I think you were like the number two or three person at Lazar's, right? Weren't you very early?

• 39:37Speaker 00

  I'm from Thursday.

• 39:38Craig S. Smith?

  Thursday, right.

• 39:39Speaker 00

  From Thursday. And two, two years, I act as a bomber pilot. And I create our first drone and create first IAS airplane and so.

• 39:54Craig S. Smith?

  That's okay. I mean, you've operated FPV drones.

• 40:00Craig S. Smith?

  Is it, I mean, obviously, it's easier psychologically to operate a heavy bomber.

• 40:08Speaker 00

  It's just different. It's not easier. I think it's the same. Many of our pilots can operate any, any drones.

• 40:16Craig S. Smith?

  I don't mean difficult, I mean difficult psychologically.

• 40:19Speaker 00

  No, no, it's not difficult.

• 40:22Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah, but when you see a Russian soldier saying, "No, no, no," and then you...

• 40:29Speaker 00

  First of all, we are military. We protect our country. We protect our civilians. We protect our land. So, uh...

• 40:40Speaker 00

  I think all our enemies is a, is a military targets. It's our enemy, first of all. And I think about, if I see enemy soldier, I understand that's, it's my enemy. It's not a human. It's enemy. And they, they are in our land.

• 41:03Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah, of, of course.

• 41:05Speaker 00

  It's okay for us to destroy everyone who tried to kill our people, who tried to kill civilians, who tried to get our land. And first of all, we protect our country. It's our main goal.

• 41:22Craig S. Smith?

  That's right. And I, and I understand that, and I understand the ethics of that. I'm not talking about ethics. I'm talking about the psychological impact.

• 41:31Speaker 00

  If, if they stay outside our borders,

• 41:37Speaker 00

  they will be leave.

• 41:40Speaker 00

  If they cross these borders and they are in our land, they are enemy, enemies for us, and they are targets for us. That's all.

• 41:52Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah, so, so your pilots, it doesn't change them?

• 41:57Speaker 00

  Many of our pilots think this way. And this my position, I think, it's my explanation of the situation. And I know many of our pilots think, thinking like me.

• 42:18Craig S. Smith?

  Right, yeah.

• 42:21Craig S. Smith?

  I, I read that Lazar's group has destroyed millions of dollars worth of Russian hardware. I'm also interested in this system. I don't know when it started of points that you get so many, a drone operator gets so many points for destroying a tank, so many points for destroying infrastructure, so many points for

• 42:51Craig S. Smith?

  killing a soldier, so many points for wounding a soldier.

• 42:57Craig S. Smith?

  What is, do you know that hierarchy of points?

• 43:03Speaker 00

  You asked me about E-point system, yes?

• 43:05Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 43:06Speaker 00

  It's, it's very nice system. It help us. It help military units to get extra channel of supply drones. So they destroy targets, they do some flights, and after that, they can get another parts, another drones to, to do other operations, other flights.

• 43:34Craig S. Smith?

  I see. So the higher your point score, then resources are directed to you. If you have a lower point score, you may lose.

• 43:47Speaker 00

  First of all, it's competition for manufacturers. They need to produce more effective drones

• 43:54Craig S. Smith?

  I see.

• 43:55Speaker 00

  with lower price. And military units can buy, it's, it's like a e-shop, yes? You can order some devices and pay for these devices by E-points. It's like a visual money. So for military, it's, the rating of units help to attract personnel. High quality, high skilled personnel who can operate as drones and hit targets and earn more points.

• 44:33Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah, wow, that's amazing.

• 44:36Speaker 00

  Nice system. So it helps, I think it help drone direction to grow, grow faster and be more effective.

• 44:48Craig S. Smith?

  And you're originally in, in networking. How does all of that information get aggregated? You, you have an FPV drone, you kill a soldier.

• 45:02Craig S. Smith?

  The operator uploads that to some central server?

• 45:05Speaker 00

  Every, every flights, every hitting of target, information about this sent to the system. It's a video footage, maybe pictures, description of device that's used by operator, who, where, and results of hitting. All this information uploaded to the system. And after checking all of this, this target

• 45:35Speaker 00

  moved to, to account, results of hitting this target, add to points, add to account of this units.

• 45:44Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah, and, and it's a central system for all units?

• 45:50Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 45:51Craig S. Smith?

  And what's the name of that system?

• 45:55Speaker 00

  Army of Drones Bonus.

• 45:58Craig S. Smith?

  Army?

• 45:59Speaker 00

  Army of Drones Bonus System.

• 46:02Craig S. Smith?

  Army of Drones?

• 46:03Speaker 00

  Bonus.

• 46:04Craig S. Smith?

  Policy?

• 46:05Speaker 00

  Bonus.

• 46:08Speaker 00

  Army of Drones, it's the first part, and second part, Bonus.

• 46:12Craig S. Smith?

  I'm, I'm not catching the last word.

• 46:14Speaker 00

  Bonus.

• 46:16Craig S. Smith?

  B, spell it.

• 46:17Speaker 00

  B-O-N-O-U-S.

• 46:20Craig S. Smith?

  Oh, bonus, okay. Army of Drones Bonus, okay.

• 46:24Speaker 00

  Right, that's what I was asking.

• 46:25Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah, yeah. And who, who, because I'm trying to talk to Brave One, who I think developed that system. Who, who manages that system?

• 46:36Speaker 00

  The part of the system is Brave One market. It's marketplace of drones and other devices related to drones. So this rating help military units to earn E-points. It's like a visual font. And after that, they spend this visual funds to get, to order some type of drones. It's extra channel for this unit, how they can get more drones.

• 47:06Craig S. Smith?

  You, you're collecting tremendous amounts of data, and that data is very valuable. Is, is there AI involved in analyzing that data?

• 47:17Speaker 00

  Sometimes.

• 47:18Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah, so you, you have the separation of the, of the two armies because of the kill zone. Is that primarily why the, the frontline has not moved very much?

• 47:33Speaker 00

  Sometimes, yes, because they can't move very fast. If they try to move inside this kill zone, usually they, they are destroyed. ISAR drone can detect this movement. And after that, in real, real time, send this video, send this information to different units that can start operation to, that help for us to destroy them.

• 48:07Craig S. Smith?

  There is some movement, right?

• 48:12Speaker 00

  Moving from...

• 48:13Craig S. Smith?

  From the Russian side advancing?

• 48:16Speaker 00

  Yes, it's, it's, they usually try to move. They try to move their personnel. And they sometimes try to move some vehicles. But all, all this movement, well known for us because we have a lot of ISAR drones and we can control this area. And after they fix some movement, we start to fly that areas and destroy all, all vehicles and all enemy personnel.

• 48:52Craig S. Smith?

  And the same on the, on the Ukrainian side?

• 48:56Speaker 00

  I think so, because there is some...

• 49:02Speaker 00

  Our enemy have the same devices, yes, same drones, I said drones and F P V drones and fiber optic. So they try to control this area too.

• 49:14Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 49:14Speaker 00

  That's why this area called kill zone.

• 49:17Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah. It seems again, if if the Ukrainian tech can adopt more autonomous technology and increase production, you can flood the the zone, just like Russia tries to overcome the defenses with the Shahed drones, you can overcome the defenses if you have enough drones. Is that part of the plan or or how do you get to that level? Is it a matter of drone production? What's creating that kind of stalemate?

• 50:02Speaker 00

  I think first of all, it's new technology.

• 50:05Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 50:06Speaker 00

  It's A I, it's a future of drones. And so I think more drones, more drones, the newest technologies. Using you, something new.

• 50:17Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 50:18Speaker 00

  And after maybe a few months, all this new technologies start understandable and well known for our enemy. And we need to invite some, we need to invent some new tactics, some new devices, some new technologies.

• 50:44Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah. Do you have a big R and D department that's always trying new technology, sends it to the battlefield?

• 50:55Craig S. Smith?

  If it doesn't work, they send it back, these are the problems. I mean, are you always working on new tests?

• 51:02Speaker 00

  Yes, we always working on something new, new technologies. We try to to do, to create new devices, new software, new options. And we we have our own R and D and we communicate with other manufacturers. And if we find some interesting devices or some interesting features that then we can install in our devices. Usually we start testing these features and devices on battlefield.

• 51:42Speaker 00

  And if we have positive results, we cooperate with these manufacturers to to use these devices or technologies.

• 51:54Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah. And can you give an example of what? Obviously, you don't want to give away what?

• 52:02Speaker 00

  It's a sensitive information. Unfortunately, I can share this.

• 52:06Craig S. Smith?

  Right, right. But it's the same sort of progress, starting with the Starlink heavy bombers moving to I S R, moving to F P V. I mean, there's there's always some development. Is that moving very fast?

• 52:25Speaker 00

  Um, I think the

• 52:31Speaker 00

  our success is a result of cooperation with manufacturers, with engineers of manufacturers. It's a fast feedback after using in real battlefield. So if if manufacturers get this feedback, they understand how it works and in in real situation.

• 52:56Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 52:57Speaker 00

  Not while testing, maybe around Kiev.

• 53:01Craig S. Smith?

  Exactly.

• 53:01Speaker 00

  Different. And they understand that they need, what we need to to change, changes that they need to do. Maybe some some new options, maybe. They always know what we what we do, how it works in real situation.

• 53:20Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah. And they get their information from the central data bank or directly from?

• 53:28Speaker 00

  They get reports from pilots after each flight. They can get telemetry log, they can get other information and they can get any information that they ask.

• 53:41Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 53:41Speaker 00

  That they need.

• 53:42Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah. Do you think that traditional infantry and tank warfare is finished globally with this tech? And is our our navies obsolete? Are is the air force, I mean, how important is the air force, given that you have drone technology?

• 54:13Speaker 00

  I think air force is very important, very important part. I think maybe ground forces is very important because they need to keep this ground position.

• 54:29Craig S. Smith?

  Right.

• 54:29Speaker 00

  And drones help them to to protect this ground position and help to destroy enemy ground position.

• 54:38Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 54:38Speaker 00

  So but I think that tank, it's a it's a pest.

• 54:42Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah, it's a pest.

• 54:43Speaker 00

  We don't need tanks.

• 54:44Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 54:46Speaker 00

  It's very expensive and it's very easy to destroy.

• 54:49Craig S. Smith?

  Wow. Yeah.

• 54:51Speaker 00

  And drone is a future.

• 54:52Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what I'm wondering though, is it's the future for ground warfare? Or is it the future? I mean, air force, you they're developing remote controlled fighter jets and bombers.

• 55:11Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 55:12Craig S. Smith?

  You know, which in effect are much, much bigger drones. You're removing the the human from the from as a target. You, I mean, have you thought about this? Or are you just waiting for the war to end and you can go back to your business?

• 55:31Speaker 00

  No, I think it's it's a future, big, big drones, unmanned, big planes. Maybe now we have a lot of different unmanned ground vehicles.

• 55:43Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 55:43Speaker 00

  So.

• 55:46Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah. Are you using, I saw, what was that company?

• 55:52Craig S. Smith?

  The the one we saw, the with the with the small unmanned?

• 55:58Speaker 00

  U G V, U G V.

• 56:00Craig S. Smith?

  U G V?

• 56:01Speaker 00

  U G V, unmanned ground vehicle.

• 56:04Craig S. Smith?

  Right. And and the company was?

• 56:07Speaker 00

  Termit.

• 56:08Craig S. Smith?

  Right, Termit.

• 56:09Speaker 00

  It's one of manufacturers of grounds, unmanned ground platform.

• 56:13Craig S. Smith?

  Right. Are you guys using that as well?

• 56:16Speaker 00

  And now we start using this type of vehicles for logistics. It help us to move.

• 56:24Craig S. Smith?

  Supply and that.

• 56:25Speaker 00

  Supply to our takeoff position and so on.

• 56:29Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah. But not yet as an armed.

• 56:32Speaker 00

  No, no, no.

• 56:34Craig S. Smith?

  Unit, yeah. And and why not as an armed unit?

• 56:37Speaker 00

  Just. Our main direction is is vehicles and big drones.

• 56:43Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 56:43Speaker 00

  So.

• 56:46Craig S. Smith?

  And and you personally, what what is your points, your your score, your?

• 56:55Speaker 00

  I destroy many, many targets and do a lot of flights. And for example, in my account is twenty eight tanks.

• 57:06Craig S. Smith?

  Wow.

• 57:07Speaker 00

  Yes, as the as a bomber pilot.

• 57:10Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 57:10Speaker 00

  So.

• 57:11Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah. And and the point system, is it per individual or is it per unit?

• 57:18Speaker 00

  It's it's my result as a pilot. And it was a result of our unit. We can see every every month as army of drones bonus system rank. So last month, we was at at the third place.

• 57:37Craig S. Smith?

  You were first, Lazarus was first.

• 57:39Speaker 00

  Third, third, three.

• 57:42Craig S. Smith?

  Third place.

• 57:43Speaker 00

  December twenty five, third, three.

• 57:47Craig S. Smith?

  Three for all or only for tanks?

• 57:51Speaker 00

  No, no, no, total, total, total.

• 57:53Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah. And that, but that?

• 57:54Speaker 00

  Tanks on first place, tanks, artillery, armored machine, mining. And second place, anti aircraft system.

• 58:09Craig S. Smith?

  I see. Yeah.

• 58:12Craig S. Smith?

  Wow. And and that's a score per unit or?

• 58:18Speaker 00

  It's a rank between all units.

• 58:22Craig S. Smith?

  I see.

• 58:23Speaker 00

  Total, total place of rank is three.

• 58:25Craig S. Smith?

  Right.

• 58:26Speaker 00

  Third. And in direction of separate type of targets, tanks, we first from all units, first place. Artillery, mining, uh, I shouldn't show. Second place anti-aircraft system.

• 58:46Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 58:47Speaker 00

  And armored vehicle, armored machine.

• 58:50Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah, but I mean, is the, is the, is that ranking for the Lazar's group?

• 58:56Speaker 00

  No, it's ranking for all, all military units who use drones. It's a crew of one bomber who connect batteries, yes, installation.

• 59:07Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 59:08Speaker 00

  It's three person. Each, each, each, every, every bomber, every takeoff point, uh, have three persons.

• 59:20Craig S. Smith?

  Right.

• 59:21Speaker 00

  For, for preparing for takeoff, uh,

• 59:24Craig S. Smith?

  That's right.

• 59:25Speaker 00

  Changing batteries.

• 59:26Craig S. Smith?

  Do, does, do those three person have the ranking within Lazar's group?

• 59:33Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, sure. It's, it's how many flights then they prepare, how many maybe targets destroyed by drones that they, um, prepare for operation, yes.

• 59:49Craig S. Smith?

  And, and then that's grouped together with all of the other Lazar teams?

• 59:56Speaker 00

  Yes, inside our Lazar teams, we know the results of, uh, maybe, maybe each crew, maybe each person, uh, result of service.

• 1:00:09Craig S. Smith?

  Right. And then, but this like number three ranking, that's for Lazar's group against Azov?

• 1:00:17Speaker 00

  Against, against other drone units.

• 1:00:20Craig S. Smith?

  Right, right.

• 1:00:21Speaker 00

  It's a global rating.

• 1:00:23Craig S. Smith?

  Right.

• 1:00:23Speaker 00

  Between all units that use drones.

• 1:00:25Craig S. Smith?

  I see. Yeah.

• 1:00:26Speaker 00

  Our total results of E points show us that we one of most resultative.

• 1:00:35Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah. And, and that, as you said, it, it's feedback to the manufacturers about what's working. Uh, the, the unit gets more points to spend on, on drones. Uh, but it's also like an incentive.

• 1:00:58Speaker 00

  The main, the main goal, it's, it's war. First of all, we are military, we need to, to do our tasks.

• 1:01:06Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:06Speaker 00

  And this E points is extra channel, how to get more drones.

• 1:01:11Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:12Speaker 00

  It's not main channel, it's extra channel.

• 1:01:14Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:15Speaker 00

  And this rating help us to attract personnel. Because then someone want to join to military, first of all, they try to understand who is the best.

• 1:01:24Craig S. Smith?

  Right.

• 1:01:25Speaker 00

  Everyone want to be with best unit.

• 1:01:29Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:29Speaker 00

  So it's extra options for us.

• 1:01:32Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:32Speaker 00

  It's not main. It's a part of.

• 1:01:35Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:36Speaker 00

  Our service.

• 1:01:37Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah, yeah, that's fascinating. And, and so you're, the, the,

• 1:01:44Craig S. Smith?

  the command and control is, is far back, like in Kiev or some, someplace.

• 1:01:51Speaker 00

  And yes, yes, it's some, some big city.

• 1:01:54Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:55Speaker 00

  It may be Kiev, it may be Zaporizhzhya, it may be other city.

• 1:02:00Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah. And you were saying there's a thousand, how many, uh, personnel in Lazar's?

• 1:02:08Speaker 00

  Hmm, how many personnel we have?

• 1:02:10Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:10Speaker 00

  Uh, for now, it's one thousand and six hundreds.

• 1:02:16Craig S. Smith?

  Right. And, and how much of, of that is, uh, you know, R and D and command and control, how much is on the frontline?

• 1:02:28Speaker 00

  Hmm, we have, uh, maybe R and D personnel located in each subunit. So we have high skilled pilots with engineering skills and they act as R and D.

• 1:02:45Craig S. Smith?

  I see.

• 1:02:45Speaker 00

  So they communicate to each other, they analyze every flight, they collect this information and they communicate with manufacturers. So our R and D built like this.

• 1:02:55Craig S. Smith?

  Right.

• 1:02:56Speaker 00

  The, the decentralized.

• 1:02:58Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:59Speaker 00

  R and D because we have many, many people in, in different places that can, uh, get this information and communicate with engineers.

• 1:03:11Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah. How many, you know, you said there are three man teams, for example. Uh, you, and you were saying there's a bomber unit, an ISR unit.

• 1:03:23Craig S. Smith?

  The FPB are with the bombers or they're separate?

• 1:03:26Speaker 00

  It's, it's separated.

• 1:03:28Craig S. Smith?

  Separated. So how many is, is, is in that chain? Uh, of the sixteen hundred in, uh,

• 1:03:39Craig S. Smith?

  Lazar's group, how many are, are actually on the line sending drones?

• 1:03:46Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:03:50Speaker 00

  I don't know exactly, but I think, um,

• 1:04:01Speaker 00

  uh, crews of Easter drones operates from, from battlefield near frontline. And bomber pilots operate remotely.

• 1:04:11Craig S. Smith?

  I see.

• 1:04:13Speaker 00

  I think maybe

• 1:04:16Speaker 00

  about thirty persons, maybe less operate remotely.

• 1:04:21Craig S. Smith?

  I see.

• 1:04:22Speaker 00

  And other personnel work directly near frontline, but far away from borderline, in safe distance.

• 1:04:29Craig S. Smith?

  Right, right.

• 1:04:30Speaker 00

  And the crews of different subunits like ISR, FPB or bomber crews operate on different distance from borderline.

• 1:04:43Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah, yeah. You're optimistic

• 1:04:49Craig S. Smith?

  about end of war?

• 1:04:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. No, I'm realistic.

• 1:04:53Craig S. Smith?

  Realistic. What does that mean?

• 1:04:55Speaker 00

  It's mean, so if we have, uh, some times for preparing for next.

• 1:05:04Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:04Speaker 00

  Wave, maybe.

• 1:05:06Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:07Speaker 00

  Because I think it's for a long time.

• 1:05:11Craig S. Smith?

  And is there an exhaustion among the, the soldiers in Lazar's group? Or is the morale still very high?

• 1:05:21Speaker 00

  I'm in service, uh, for, from first day and it's, uh, four years of service for me.

• 1:05:29Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:30Speaker 00

  Now it's okay for me.

• 1:05:32Craig S. Smith?

  Yeah, it's your life.

• 1:05:34Speaker 00

  It's my life, it's my lifestyle.

• 1:05:36Craig S. Smith?

  Yes, yeah. Wow. Okay. Well, let's leave it there. That's fascinating.