The Internet Owes Denise Richards an Apology

Denise Richards is finally telling HER side of the story, and nothing is off-limits. From becoming Hollywood's "it girl" in Starship Troopers, Wild Things, and as a Bond girl to surviving relentless tabloid headlines, a highly public divorce from Charlie Sheen, an abusive marriage, and becoming a special-needs mama, Denise opens up like never before. She and Bunnie get real about facelifts, fillers, beauty standards, and why Denise believes celebrities should be more honest about cosmetic work. She also reflects on breaking into Hollywood, the truth behind her most iconic roles, and what it was really like navigating fame at the height of her career. Denise gets candid about raising daughters in the spotlight, co-parenting with Charlie, protecting her kids from the media, and adopting her youngest daughter, Eloise, who has a rare chromosome disorder and is primarily nonverbal. She shares how Eloise completely changed her perspective on life, happiness, and what truly matters. For the first time in this much detail, Denise opens up about her most recent marriage—the love-bombing, the slow loss of control, the physical and emotional abuse, the financial manipulation, the restraining order, and the court battle that ultimately ordered her to pay spousal support to her abuser. She shares why she stayed, how she finally got out, and why she's speaking out now for anyone who feels trapped or afraid. If you've ever been misunderstood, villainized, or felt like your voice didn't matter, this conversation will stay with you long after it's over. This is Denise Richards unfiltered: a survivor, a mother, a working actress, and a woman finally choosing herself. Stay until the end, because after everything Denise has survived, she and Bunnie start talking about healing, future love, and planning a girls' trip you'll definitely want an invite to. Watch Full Episodes & More: YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@Dumbblondepod

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:11Bunnie XO?

  Is this thing on? You guys, welcome to another dumb blonde podcast. I am in studio with an absolute legend who I have been wanting to interview for so long. And we're here in LA. And I'm finally sitting face to face with my girl Denise Richards. How are you, baby?

• 0:29Speaker 01

  I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.

• 0:32Bunnie XO?

  No, the pleasure is mine. Like, thank you so much for just, you know, making time for me in your day to come out and do this interview because I'm just like, I'm so excited. I went down a wormhole about you last night and

• 0:43Speaker 01

  Oh, well.

• 0:44Bunnie XO?

  Girl, I got them too. So don't worry about it. But no, I literally went down a wormhole. And what I discovered was, is there's two Denise Richards. There's one that the tabloids have painted. And then there's the woman that is actually Denise Richards, who has the hugest heart and is just so kind and so sweet and so loving. And I'm hoping that today, at the end of this interview, everybody gets to discover that one and not what the tabloids say.

• 1:07Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thank you for saying that.

• 1:09Bunnie XO?

  Absolutely. But first off, we need to talk about what's really important here. We gotta talk about the facelift.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:16Bunnie XO?

  Sister, because I'm, I'm seeing it in person now. It looks so good.

• 1:20Speaker 01

  So does yours. And I was so happy to see that you were open about yours too.

• 1:25Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, first of all, and this is no shade to anybody in the industry, but if you're gonna get work done, just fucking be honest about it.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I understand if there's some that don't want to say anything, but if you're asked about stuff, I think to say, I couldn't say nothing, you know?

• 1:43Bunnie XO?

  No, I feel like, I feel like our job, quote unquote, as people that are online and pushing a narrative of our lives, I feel like we owe that to the public. That might just be me, but I just feel like we as, especially as women, because there's such a false beauty standard of like, trying to like uphold. And I never want a little girl to look at me and be like, I want to look just like her. It's like, girl, I don't even look like me, you know? It's like, so I always want to be honest.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  And the pressure of other women too, seeing other women. And I, I wanted to be honest with that too, because I also want to know what's everyone using, what are they doing? And, you know, even my sister, she lives in Montana and she works at a hospital. She has a completely different job than I do. And, and, you know, I'll tell her certain things about other people that I know she'll keep a secret. And she said, I, it made her feel so much better to see that more and more women coming out and saying different things, because I had, I got my implants when I was 19 years old, and I was so private about it. I never said anything to anyone. And I think the very first time it was even out was Howard Stern asked me a question. And some people were saying, well, you never

• 2:54Speaker 01

  spoke about it. I'm like, well, no one ever flat out asked me, you know?

• 2:57Bunnie XO?

  Yeah. So you didn't lie.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  Right. I didn't offer the information.

• 3:01Bunnie XO?

  But then when somebody did, you were honest. Yeah.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  And, um, you know, so I, I love that you did. And I, you know, I, I think it's good to share, you know, what we're doing and different, you know, serums and peptides or whatever, you know, someone does. So, and yours looks so good.

• 3:21Bunnie XO?

  So does yours. You're, I'm like, looking at your face. It's immaculate. What exactly did you have done? Because I, I'll tell you what I had done also.

• 3:26Speaker 01

  So I told, so I went to Dr. Ben Tally. And originally, I had been thinking about doing just my neck. And then

• 3:34Bunnie XO?

  It's the neck that always goes first, ladies. Yes, always.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  And then a friend of mine, she's very well known, and she's not public about hers. And she said to me, you have to do the whole thing. I'm like, I don't want to do the whole thing. I was scared. I've never done anything. I've done a little botox. And then I did some fillers. I felt like I looked like 300 pounds when I did those.

• 3:56Bunnie XO?

  Oh, and me too. Yeah. I'll emphasize on that whenever you are done telling me about your story. Because fillers, I don't think people realize they fill up with water and they literally like expand your face. It's crazy.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I, so I didn't do, didn't do much. And then when I saw Dr. Ben, and he explained things to me, and I thought, you know what, it's, the only analogy I could give is, like, if you remodel a house, and you do one room, and the room looks great, but it doesn't match the rest of the house. And so I told him, you know, you're the artist. His work was impeccable. I saw so many before and afters. And I just said, do what you want to do. I was terrified. But he did everything. He did the lower, the neck, the lower face, the upper, the brow lift. The only thing he didn't do were my lower lids. He did my upper lid. But I mean, he did the whole thing. And I'm sorry, I don't know if you had the brow lift, but that is no fricking joke.

• 4:49Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  With the pain.

• 4:51Bunnie XO?

  Yeah. Okay, let's talk about the pain, because my recovery, I'm still numb. Are you still numb?

• 4:56Speaker 01

  I'm numb, um, just on my, under my chin. Here, I'm good. When did you have yours?

• 5:02Bunnie XO?

  I had mine done in March.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  Okay, I had my, oh, so you're still, so I had mine done exactly a year ago.

• 5:08Bunnie XO?

  Oh, okay, okay.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  In June, end of June.

• 5:10Bunnie XO?

  So it gets better.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  It gets, yeah. And that was the other thing, when I was told, oh, it'll, it gets better as you heal. And I'm like, how? With gravity? How are we gonna get better? And it does. It's like your face settles or something. It's, I'm, it was the best thing I did for myself.

• 5:25Bunnie XO?

  No, it looks phenomenal. And I, I don't think people realize how big of a surgery it is. Like, the recovery, I thought that I was gonna be up and walking around in like a month. And no, I mean, I was down for the count. I had to like go into hiding for a little bit. Like, it was a lot. And so fricking painful.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  It's painful. Did, so with your brow lift, were your incisions up in here?

• 5:47Bunnie XO?

  Yes. And then you had to pull those things out? Did you have to pull the stuff out of your head?

• 5:51Speaker 01

  No, I went somewhere, though. He makes his patients go to a recovery place at least a few days. And I stayed a week. And I'm so glad that I did. I don't know how anyone can take care of themselves after even have someone. It's scary. You look frightening.

• 6:05Bunnie XO?

  Yeah. No, it's Frankenstein. I had my whole team had to take care of me. And every day, they looked at me and they were like,

• 6:13Bunnie XO?

  I'd wake up and they'd be like, it looks, it looks better. I'm like, no, it doesn't.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  I know. It's a, it's a, I trusted the process. And I, he, I feel like that was the most painful. I wasn't prepared for that pain. And I feel I have a high tolerance of pain.

• 6:30Bunnie XO?

  Yes, ma'am.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Um, but he explained, because some people that get the brow lift, their incision is right here, and you can see it. So I love that it's up in here. But shitballs, does that hurt?

• 6:39Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, yeah. No, it's terrible. Mine was the, the neck. I felt like I was choking. Did you get that sensation where you felt?

• 6:47Speaker 01

  I think my head hurt so bad, I didn't notice the neck.

• 6:50Bunnie XO?

  She's like, girl, I had other problems.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  But it didn't, that pain, well, I heard right before I went in, oh, your head could hurt. And I was like, oh, how bad can, you know, I was a little nervous about that. And then when I was told I'll be all wrapped up, and I thought, am I gonna feel claustrophobic? But you're so out of it from that surgery. It's like, I didn't even know my head was wrapped, really, until the next day. And you took it off. But, um, yeah, it was, it's a headache that you can't explain. It's not like a migraine.

• 7:21Bunnie XO?

  It's like you just had your face peeled back headache. And unless you've had your face peeled back, you don't know what it feels like.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  I know. But it does, you know, the first night was the roughest for me.

• 7:31Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  I don't know for you.

• 7:33Bunnie XO?

  Mine was the first night, because the anesthesia just didn't agree with me. I was under for like about six hours. And it was, it was

• 7:39Speaker 01

  I was too.

• 7:40Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, it was brutal. And then I think like around day six or seven, I was just like, I want off this ride. And my doctor was like, you're on it for the next year. I was like, fuck, I want off this ride. But circling back to the, the filler situation, I just wanted, for the girls at home that are listening that do get filler, just be careful when you get it in your face, because it literally, it expands, it, it gets lumpy, it migrates to other places in your face. And then you end up having to get it melted and getting a facelift anyway. So if I were you, I would just do minimal botox. And then when the time comes, get, get that stuff peeled back. Yeah.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  And you know, I always thought I wouldn't get a facelift. And I'm one that says, never say never. That I was like, oh, I'm never getting, because I, I didn't want to not look like myself. But

• 8:25Bunnie XO?

  I think you look amazing. Like, you look, you look like just refreshed. And like, you look young. Like, it looks so good.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 8:31Bunnie XO?

  I'm going back on the eighth, because he didn't do under my eyes either. And so I'm going back on the eighth to get the skin pinch under the eyes and some more fat transfer. So, and then I'm done. I swear.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  You look amazing. And that's the thing too, that I feel when you go to someone good, it's, and that's the thing, just because someone's a surgeon, this is the other thing that I think it's important for girls and young women and Women that aren't as young to know that it's it's you have to go to someone really reputable and skilled just because they're a plastic surgeon doesn't mean they're good.

• 9:03Bunnie XO?

  Yes, you need to look at their work um the before and months after. Don't look right after look like six months after a year after like you want somebody who's gonna do natural work. You don't want to look like Cat Lady.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  No.

• 9:17Bunnie XO?

  Definitely.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  And you look like you, but same thing refreshed and.

• 9:23Bunnie XO?

  Thank you. I appreciate it. But I feel like it's never enough, you know, like I feel like we're our worst critics because we're always looking at ourselves on cameras. Yeah, for sure. We're women. We're never happy.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  And if we don't comment on it, someone else will anyway. So if you don't find your flaw, you'll see it.

• 9:37Bunnie XO?

  Listen, I'm so tired of the fucking internet, man. I'm tired of it. Alright, so let's circle back and let's talk about um before Hollywood got a hold of you. You're born in Illinois and your family moved to California and you were a cheerleader. Can we like go back to, you know, when Denise was just before Denise was known as Denise Richards?

• 9:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I grew up in Illinois. My dad worked for the phone company. We were, you know, my dad was just a hardworking. We didn't have money. Um, my mom was stay at home mom. They got married. My dad was 21. My mom was um I think 16 or 16 and 20. They had me at 17 and 21. So he was just out of Vietnam and uh, you know, like they were young parents.

• 10:24Bunnie XO?

  Wow, he was a Vietnam vet.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  He's a Vietnam vet. Yeah, right after he got out, uh, he and my mom got together and then got married um and had me and then my sister were a year and a half apart. And so we just grew up. We were, I just had, you know, I don't even know what normal is, but just a, well, we were part of the Nielsen family for people that don't know. Back then, that's how they saw which TV shows were popular. They put a little Nielsen box on our TV. We were your typical all American family of four. So they could see the ratings and things. So, you know, my mom had dinner at six o'clock every night. We had to make sure we were there. Weekends were family time. We went to church every Sunday.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  I was raised Catholic. And then my dad saw a TV show, um, Battle of the Network Stars. It was this competition show for people that don't know in the late eighties um of celebrities that would compete. And it was in January. My dad could not believe because he was climbing telephone poles in the winter in Illinois with blizzards and stuff. And he just got so tired of the weather and up and moved our family after he saw people were wearing shorts in California.

• 11:31Bunnie XO?

  Don't you love how simple life was back then? Yeah.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  And literally moved us. I was had just finished my freshman year in high school. It was such a hard move for me to make that transition. And then in high school, my sister and I, we both all, we always had the same job together. We worked at Haagen Dazs and Baskin Robbins. I bagged groceries at Albertson's and did all that. And then my mom entered me into a model search. And I came in second and the an agent from LA saw me and signed me. And so I started driving up to LA and started modeling, doing Teen Magazine and stuff like that. And then I went to New York or Japan right after I graduated high school. I can't even believe my parents let me go.

• 12:09Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  I mean, shit, if they knew really how that was, but.

• 12:13Bunnie XO?

  How was it? How was it?

• 12:14Speaker 01

  You know, I was so naive. I was just, I was a very sheltered. My parents really sheltered my sister and I. My mom was raised in a very abusive um family and my dad, um, you know, his brother had a lot of drug addiction. And so they really sheltered my sister and I. My mom said, my mom passed away years ago, but she said before that she did that, you know, on one hand, she felt that she sheltered my sister and I a little too much because I was so, I was so naive. I was, I was always had a good um good gut instincts about people and had a good head on my shoulders. I, I never got into any, you know, drugs or alcohol

• 12:56Speaker 01

  or the wrong people. I was just, I was too scared because my dad put the fear of God in us with that. And so I, when I started modeling in Japan, it was, what's interesting is I was, I was very flat back then. I couldn't even fit into a Victoria's Secret bra. And yeah, I was really tiny.

• 13:14Bunnie XO?

  But that was the model look back then also. That's what people wanted.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  And well, actually, this was, no, that, yeah, this was um kind of like it was Kate Moss, before Kate Moss, but it was like Cindy Crawford, the voluptuous body, the cosmopolitan cover, that kind of thing.

• 13:31Bunnie XO?

  Like the Claudia Schiffer and all that stuff, yeah.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  And so in Japan, it worked because they, well, they wanted me to do lingerie. And it's funny, years later, I did Playboy and all of that. But back then, I remember.

• 13:42Bunnie XO?

  But how old were you?

• 13:43Speaker 01

  I was 18, but I looked 15. I was, I looked so young. And I told the agency, I'm not gonna model bras and underwear. And they almost dropped me, but I was making money with some of the other um, jobs that I did there. So they kept me. My dad was ready to fly out there and bring me home because he thought it was like something else.

• 14:02Bunnie XO?

  Did you go out there by yourself?

• 14:03Speaker 01

  I did with a modeling agency. Like they came and scouted girls in LA.

• 14:07Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  And then brought a bunch of us out there, but I flew there by myself. I, which I can't believe it. Like I didn't know anything.

• 14:14Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  I was just so naive.

• 14:16Bunnie XO?

  Hometown girl on a, on a flight to Japan.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, they don't take care of us the way they, I think, told the parents that they do as far as security and stuff like that. We were really on our own. Um, and then I went to New York after that. And but I always wanted to act. And so I just um moved back to LA, moved to LA. And then um I, you know, lived in several different places and just got an agency. I was signed with the children's division, Harry Gold, Tracy Gold, the actress who was on Growing Pains. Yeah, her dad had an agency and um, and I played like 14, 15 years old. And because I was over 18, at that point, I was like 20. I was able to work long hours without having to worry about that. And so I just did build my resume doing even one line here. Um, uh, what was the um

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Saved by the Bell was one of my first jobs. And that's how I got my um SAG card between that and Doogie Howser. I got tapped Hartley with one and then the SAG card with the other.

• 15:14Bunnie XO?

  Your lore goes on forever. Like when I discovered like you did Married with Children, Saved by the Bell. I mean, like you did 90210. Like this was like the icon. This was like when Hollywood was like Hollywood. I feel like.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  I agree with you.

• 15:27Bunnie XO?

  It's not the same anymore. And I feel like you got to be a part of just history.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  I'm so grateful for that time. And I think a lot of other actresses and actors that I know that, you know, we would, it's such a nostalgic time, driving around with our Thomas Guide. There was no, you know, ways back then. And yeah, we would just, we would just go. There was like a pilot season, you know, and during that time of year, you would hope you book a pilot. And because I was able to build up my resume, I was able to, you know, audition for other jobs, but I was so green and, but I was so focused. Like I was so really loved doing it and had my acting classes. And then Married with Children, the producers um cast a pilot

• 16:12Speaker 01

  and I auditioned for that and got it. Didn't, we thought, oh, Married with Children, it'll go to series. Um, it didn't. And then uh, Erin Spelling did a pilot and this was around the, you know, Melrose Place and 90210.

• 16:27Bunnie XO?

  God, I loved Melrose Place. I was a huge Melrose Place fan.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  I was too. And the 90210, I did both of those shows as a guest star too. And I was so scared working with all the actors. I was so intimidated. And it was harder for me to do a line. I was terrified.

• 16:43Bunnie XO?

  Really?

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Yes, I was just so nervous. Um, yeah, because sometime, like a lot of those jobs, I only had a line or two, you know, and that to me was harder to do than a scene.

• 16:53Bunnie XO?

  Because you had to like really nail it.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  Well, yeah. And it's like you don't want to overdo the one or two lines.

• 16:59Bunnie XO?

  Right. You don't want to be too overzealous.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  But yeah, but and then I, so we booked the pilot with Erin Spelling, a bunch of us. And it shot, it was called Pure 66. And it shot in Florida and we thought this is gonna be the next Melrose Place and it didn't get picked up.

• 17:15Bunnie XO?

  What does that feel like? Like when you pour your all into like a role and then it doesn't get picked up? Is it like?

• 17:19Speaker 01

  Hard.

• 17:20Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, does it?

• 17:20Speaker 01

  First of all, getting the job, like at that time, I was, no one knew who I was. And so I'd have to audition several times to, you know, read with other actors. So then you get the part and you're so excited. And then. Especially at the level of Aaron Spelling, who has, you know,

• 17:37Bunnie XO?

  Yes.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  Everything television and same with the producers of Married with Children. At the time Married with Children was doing so well, you'd think, oh, this will get picked up and be a huge hit.

• 17:46Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  And um, and then it didn't. And it's just such a letdown. But I always felt to every job that I didn't get that one job that I did, it was so worth like, you know, busting my ass and just

• 17:58Bunnie XO?

  Learning.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Really hard and learning and even doing one line on set. Sometimes I'd wait around for 12 hours before they even got to me. And I would really watch the other actors and try and learn and because in acting class, I felt like they didn't teach us hitting your mark and doing the one that I went to. And those are the little things that were great for me to watch other actors and really try to learn. And then um, Starship Troopers came, we just, Paul Verhoeven, actually I auditioned for, um, I came close with Showgirls and then

• 18:31Bunnie XO?

  Oh, with um, Elizabeth Berkeley. That movie, I to this day is still one of my favorite movies because I'm a Vegas girl.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  I know.

• 18:38Bunnie XO?

  So like, you know, during my generation of growing up, I'm 46, that was like, you know, me being a dancer and stuff like that. So that was like my um, Wuthering Heights.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:48Bunnie XO?

  You know, like that was like my iconic movie that you look up to whenever you think of like movies growing up.

• 18:55Speaker 01

  And where were you when that came out? Like

• 18:57Bunnie XO?

  I was in Vegas. Yeah. And I think, uh, what year did that come out? Do we know? I might have already been

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Nineties.

• 19:03Bunnie XO?

  Okay, so

• 19:04Speaker 01

  I was like 95, 96.

• 19:06Bunnie XO?

  So uh, I think it came out in 1995. We had them look it up. So I was 15, but I was on my way to being a stripper, you know? So growing up, growing up in Vegas back then, dancing was so much more glamorous than it is now, like, and it wasn't so oversaturated. So I always say that if you grew up in Vegas in that era, a lot, not everybody, but a lot of girls wanted to be either a showgirl or a dancer. And if you couldn't make it being a showgirl, you became a dancer. So that what, what role did you?

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Elizabeth's role.

• 19:34Bunnie XO?

  Oh, wow. Okay.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Um, so when I, I auditioned for that and then um, then when Starship Troopers came around, uh, auditioned for that, obviously. And that was a long process over a few months. They went everywhere um, casting and then it came down to like, I went in probably five or six times, Casper and I. At the end, it was just us, screen, or yeah, we did a screen test together and we were like, uh, we found out it was just us. And we're like, well, if we don't get it, we really fucked up.

• 20:04Bunnie XO?

  You know what's so crazy is that um, initially the movie didn't do great, but then now it's like known as one of the greatest satirical sci-fi films ever made. Like it's a cult classic.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  I know. It's so funny how I just started going to Comic Cons about a year and a half ago with them, with the cast from Starship and it's just so humbling, meeting the fans and how their kids watch it. I, my kids haven't even seen the movie. I don't even, I think for a long time they didn't even know I was in it.

• 20:33Bunnie XO?

  I think it's because your mom, you know, so it's like, we see you every day. We don't need to see you on the movie screen. It was like when I wrote my book, my family didn't even read it until I was like, can you guys read the book, please? You know?

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:44Bunnie XO?

  But I think it's because they're just, they know the real us. So it's like, they don't need to, you know, see our art, I guess is what you could say.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  I agree. It's funny because they don't even know half the stuff I've been in. Sammy saw a TikTok of me on Friends and she was like, Mom, you did Friends? And I said, yeah, because why didn't you tell me? And I said, well, what am I supposed to say? Oh, by the way, I did Friends.

• 21:06Bunnie XO?

  Let's, let's pivot real quick um, as before we get into the, uh, your, your Wild Things era um, and talk about your girls because I follow um, it's Sammy.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:16Bunnie XO?

  I follow Sammy on TikTok. I love her. She's spicy.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  She's very spicy.

• 21:20Bunnie XO?

  But you know what? I feel like, and we can cut this out if you want me to, but I feel like she's kind of Charlie's karma in a way.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  You don't have to cut it out.

• 21:29Bunnie XO?

  I feel like she gives him a run for his money, you know, and he needs that, I think.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  Um, he does because she, out of all the kids, I feel stands up to him the most. And um, you know, and he does need it, you know, we all do.

• 21:45Bunnie XO?

  Yes.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  And but uh, yeah, she's uh, she's, I love that she, I wish I had her confidence when I was her age. However, I do wish sometimes she filtered herself a little bit when she's saying stuff sometimes.

• 22:02Bunnie XO?

  You're like, can we not have another headline, please?

• 22:04Speaker 01

  Right. But I'd rather her be the way she is than, you know, have to, I love that she's not afraid to be who she is. And that's something that I really admire in her. And she and Lola could not be more opposite.

• 22:19Bunnie XO?

  So opposite. And that's what I was just about to say. She's so like sweet and loves Jesus. And then, you know, we got Sammy over here who's OF model and like doesn't give a flying F of what's going on. So yeah, no.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  No, it's funny.

• 22:32Bunnie XO?

  How did you raise such polar opposite children?

• 22:34Speaker 01

  I don't know. That's the thing. It will, and my dad reminded me, my sister and I are very opposite too.

• 22:41Bunnie XO?

  Oh.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  Um, but I don't know. I, they don't even look alike, my girls.

• 22:46Bunnie XO?

  No, not at all. Not at all.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  It's like I was with the milkman or something.

• 22:50Bunnie XO?

  But it's crazy because they both look like both of you in different ways. It's really

• 22:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:55Bunnie XO?

  Crazy. If you see, like, I watched an interview with the, the three of you guys, uh, you and your girls yesterday and you can see like the mannerisms, the eyes, the like facial structure, like one of them, like you can see Charlie in both of them. You can see you in both of them. So it's like, I don't know. It's like a perfect mixture and they're both beautiful.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 23:13Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, of course. And you're just such an amazing mom. You really are. Like

• 23:17Speaker 01

  Thank you for saying that.

• 23:17Bunnie XO?

  Raising children in the limelight is not easy. I haven't had to do it to the extent that you have, but um, considering everything that you've been through and had to bring those babies along with you is a testament of the woman that you are because

• 23:32Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 23:32Bunnie XO?

  They're such good, they're good kids, you know, like Sammy's not hurting anybody. She's just on TikTok, talking shit, living her life, you know, and Lola.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Funny. Sometimes she'll say something. I'm like, you posted that? Yeah. I'm like, all right.

• 23:46Bunnie XO?

  What is your relationship like with both of them?

• 23:49Speaker 01

  I have a good, a great relationship with both of them. Right now they're living together.

• 23:52Bunnie XO?

  Oh, wow.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  Or staying together. I shouldn't say they're living together. They're staying together.

• 23:57Bunnie XO?

  That's amazing because I did see a little, they had like a little tip online a couple of months ago. And she's like, oh yeah, it's normal.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  I know. They, they'll, um, exactly. They'll get into it, whatever. And then I'll, they'll call me from lunch. And I'm like, I'm so glad the sisters are getting along right now. Um, yeah, no, we, it's funny because I have a, they're more open with me than I was with my mom when I was their age and I had a great relationship with my mom, but I think I was always afraid of being judged and I was always very um, you know, careful, even when I did interviews and stuff like that, I just was not a hundred percent myself, a version, like a part of me. There was things I held back and stuff because um,

• 24:46Speaker 01

  I was just such a people pleaser. And I love that the girls are just, and I don't know if it's because of their generation that they're so exposed to so much online and that sort of thing. Or if it's because they were raised in Hollywood and um, you know, and that's something too, they both have said to me that it's hard to be kids of famous parents. And, and I can't even relate to that because I grew up in Illinois and I didn't have to deal with, you know, from the time they were babies, the paparazzi were at the hospital. And so, you know, to them it's normal, but it has effect, had an effect on them. Um, not necessarily neg, you know, negative. It's different from how some of their other friends and how I was raised.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  But um, and I can't imagine, you know, being now for them to even, even stuff going on in my life, for them to hear about it. It's weird.

• 25:37Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  You know, and with, with my divorce with her, their dad, they were so little. I thought, okay, by the time they're older, they're not gonna hear anything. Well, the internet has changed tremendously.

• 25:48Bunnie XO?

  Yes. Yeah. And it's like, they'll bring up shit from 20 years ago and it goes viral. And you're like, wait, what is happening?

• 25:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:55Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, you can't hide anything. But I think to circle back to what you said about um, that they're more open with you. I think that shows that you've created such a safe space with them that they are, they feel safe enough with you to come to you and tell you everything. So that's amazing also.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  Thank you. I, I try to raise them in that. And my mom did raise me that, like, my mom was never judgmental. For me, it was more of being a people pleaser, but I've tried to raise the girls to not, we don't judge. We may not agree with people's choices, but to not judge. And I may not agree with certain things they say or do, but that I'm not making, it's hard, like, I just, I'm not saying you can't do that or don't do that or don't be who you are. I might not agree with certain ways, just like they don't agree with certain ways, things. Believe me, they've told me things that I do.

• 26:45Bunnie XO?

  You're like, I did it for you.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  You know?

• 26:47Bunnie XO?

  Um, so when it comes to their relationship with their father, which we'll get into Charlie in a little bit, um, can we touch base on both of their relationships with Charlie? And like, how do you encourage them to have that relationship? Because to me, and this is me speaking freely, is that he seems like he's kind of hard to get along with. So just from what I've gathered from Sammy's TikToks and stuff like that too.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Well, I think so during our divorce, which was so public, I

• 27:17Speaker 01

  I wanted the girls to have their relationship with him without,

• 27:23Speaker 01

  you know, any negativity around it. I wanted, I wanted them to know their dad as dad, not as Charlie Sheen, because there was many years where I didn't know if he was gonna be here. And I didn't want the kids to only know about their father from what they were gonna read about him. And so every, anytime he was in a good space where they could spend time with him, I encouraged it. I never spoke badly about him in front of the kids. I never would, anyone that was hired in, in my house, I, like, the shit stays out the door. You don't, we don't talk negatively about him at all. And to the point where they've discovered things later, like, why didn't you tell me this about,

• 28:08Speaker 01

  you know, and I'm sure there's things that they're saying to their dad, why didn't you tell me this about mom? So it goes both ways, and I know that. But I really wanted to protect the innocence of the father-daughter relationship as much as I could. And there's no handbook for it too, and I didn't know, that was such a crazy, insane time. It got more insane, actually, after we were divorced, like during his marriage to, yeah, the tiger blood phase.

• 28:33Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, which we'll get into that a little bit.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  Jesus Christ. And then, you know, with his

• 28:37Bunnie XO?

  Poor at knees, she's like, I'm just trying to live.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  It's like, I would get dragged into all of that, but you know, I will say even Charlie always knew too that no matter what, I was there for him. He could call me at two o'clock in the morning, and if he needed my help, and I would be there. And

• 28:51Bunnie XO?

  I think that's the most amazing gift that you could ever give somebody, is them knowing that you will always be there for them. Sometimes it's selfless on, on your part or our parts, or women who do that. But at the same time, I think undying loyalty is just so special and so priceless.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you. It was, um, I wanted him to be the best version of himself that he could be, and I always supported him. I always kept his secrets. I never extorted him. It made me sad seeing, you know, some of the people that were around in his life that were doing things. It was hard to watch, actually. But, you know, even if he would get mad at me about something or whatever, he still, he knew he could count on me, and he knew he could tell me anything, and I wasn't, wouldn't judge him, I wouldn't, I would be there. And so we went through a really, you know, up and down time over the years, too.

• 29:45Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, absolutely. So when it comes to the girls, how is their relationship with him now?

• 29:50Speaker 01

  Right now, it's,

• 29:55Speaker 01

  I think it's, it's good. It has its moments because you know, sometimes it's better than others.

• 30:05Bunnie XO?

  Which is normal, I think, for teenage girls and their dads, too. I do think that's normal, you know, and that's how it is with teenage girls and their moms, too. You guys, there's gonna be some times you guys like each other, and there's gonna be some times you don't, and it just happens.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  I do think that there should come a time where they should really talk to their dad, because so much happened when they were growing up, and ask him questions, and why, and, and feel that, you know, because there would be times where he wouldn't show up on Christmas, and I would, I would have to lie and make up stuff, and I protected him. I would say, I wasn't gonna tell them the truth. How do you tell this to little girls what's really going on? And some people were, would judge me, and they're like, you gotta tell them, I'm, like, how do I say that? You know, they're already so fragile and going through, you know, even though I

• 30:58Speaker 01

  try to keep as much from them as possible, they're aware, they pick up on energy, and, and also there was a time their brothers lived with us for about a year. So obviously, they knew some shit was going on there. And, you know, I did the best I could. It wasn't perfect, and there's probably a lot of things I would have changed and done differently, but, you know, I think that there's, in my opinion, I feel there's still, like, the elephant in the room that them, they're all not addressing, and I hope one day that they feel comfortable enough and safe enough where they could just be open and say certain things.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  Charlie's very, we have a great relationship. He lives close to us, actually, and his boys live with him right now, and you know, I can give him shit and joke around with them, and, you know, he respects me and I respect him too. And I want only the best for him and want him to do well, and he knows if he needs anything, I'm here, and, and I think it's important for us always to maintain a relationship. We have that, we have our daughters, and, and that would be something that I think along the way that was hard for him. I would say, no matter what's going on with you and I, let's put our shit aside, and they don't need to be dragged into anything.

• 32:14Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  You know, and oftentimes, that wouldn't happen, and it is what it is, but at the end of the day, he knows that I only have their best interest in his too.

• 32:23Bunnie XO?

  Yeah. Is there a part of you that still feels like you might be in love with Charlie?

• 32:28Speaker 01

  No, and that's the thing, like, some people I think misunderstood, like, in with, I did his documentary. I didn't see the second part, I saw the first part. I love him as their dad.

• 32:40Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  You know, I, and it's, it's not even a brother-sister relationship, it's

• 32:45Bunnie XO?

  Best friends. You guys have been through some shit.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  I wouldn't say best friends.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  We're friends. But I mean, do you know what, I can't talk to him the way I can talk to some other friends of mine, and I, I, I love him as there, I will always have love for him being their dad, but as far as like a romantic love, no.

• 33:11Bunnie XO?

  No.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  At all.

• 33:14Bunnie XO?

  I'm glad we cleared that up, because I did watch the documentary, and from the way they shot the documentary, it kind of made it, they, I don't wanna say they made it seem like you still had like feelings for him, but just, there's so much emotion there with you guys.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  I think there's a lot of emotion, because there's things that he didn't even know.

• 33:28Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  A lot, that he did not know, and how I had to like navigate so much shit.

• 33:34Bunnie XO?

  Yeah. Oh, let's talk about it. We'll, we'll circle back to the wild things thing in a, in a minute, but you and Charlie, so take me back to when you and Charlie first met. You guys met on the filming of Good Advice.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, we met when we did that movie together, and at the time, I was with my ex, who he passed away a couple of months ago, Patrick Muldoon. He was a friend of mine of thirty-seven years, and we were on and off for like five years, and at the time, we were still together when I met Charlie, and and then Charlie was going off to do Spin City, and then a year later, I, Patrick and I had just broken up, and then I did like an arc of four episodes on Spin City, and it was during Spin City that we started to date, and then, and there was, it was like over a period of, I think, two months that I was doing the show, because

• 34:25Speaker 01

  sitcom, it's a couple of weeks on, a week off, whatever, and we thought, we're not gonna tell anyone, but it was quite obvious that we were dating.

• 34:32Bunnie XO?

  But like, what a hot couple, dude. Young Charlie Sheen, Charlie Sheen, and then you. I mean, come on, dude, like, young Charlie was hot.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  He's very handsome. Yeah, no, he's still very handsome.

• 34:43Bunnie XO?

  Is he?

• 34:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he, you know, and he's very shy, and when I met him, people think that, oh, she reformed the bad boy. That's not the case. He was, I don't know the person that, well, I got to know after, you know, during the Tiger Blood days, but at the time, I didn't know the person, the person I met was had been sober for four and a half years, went to AA, was very focused, and just a very calm, nurturing person, and that's who I fell in love with, and

• 35:12Bunnie XO?

  Do you think that's the real Charlie?

• 35:15Speaker 01

  I don't know, because I went back and forth with that too, like, on one hand. I do know that, you know, whatever went sideways with our marriage, the one thing I don't doubt is, I don't doubt that he didn't love me. I really believe that he loved me, you know? But I feel, I was also very ignorant and uneducated in addiction, and many people would ask me when I got together with him, are you, aren't you afraid he's gonna relapse? And I naively said, no, and, and I think part of it, I didn't know that person.

• 35:48Bunnie XO?

  Especially because your dad dealt with addiction, so he sheltered you so much from it. Right, your dad dealt with the addiction with his brother, so he sheltered you from it so much, and then you marry an addict, which is, you know, it just, that, that just goes to show that generational trauma and curses are always at play.

• 36:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, and even being, growing up and young adult in Hollywood, I, and I know people are not gonna believe this, but I had never seen cocaine, because I, people that I was close with knew I didn't do drugs. It actually scared me. I was not, I didn't see it until during his Tiger Blood days. That was the first time I actually saw a coke in person.

• 36:25Bunnie XO?

  Wow, tell me about this story.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Well, there's many with that.

• 36:30Bunnie XO?

  She's like, there's not just one.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  No, there's several. Yeah, no, I was so naive, and then when things went sideways, they went sideways, but during his Tiger Blood days, I, I would, you know, his security would often call me to help him, because they would get fired if they knocked on his bedroom door, they would, he was just so bad. It was just really bad, and

• 36:50Bunnie XO?

  He was like in the, the deepest, like, rock bottom of addiction.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  It was actually a shame the people around him, because he was on such a hit show, made a boatload of money, and they didn't want, you know, they

• 37:08Speaker 01

  almost in a weird way, enabled it.

• 37:11Bunnie XO?

  I feel like any man that has a certain amount of money, for some reason, everybody around them starts becoming a yes man.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 37:19Bunnie XO?

  And nobody tells them no. The ego goes way out just crazy, and then they're literally spiraling, hitting rock bottom. It's like a tale as old as time.

• 37:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, because if they did say no, he'd fire them.

• 37:29Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 37:30Speaker 01

  So if you wanted to work for him, you had to do what he wanted. I don't think he would care that I'm sharing that, but you know, it was hard for me to watch that.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  Everyone turning their head to how bad he was and almost propping him up to do his show at that point.

• 37:49Bunnie XO?

  I feel like during your guys' divorce, back in that time, um, the tabloids really villainized you.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 37:56Bunnie XO?

  Um, how are you feeling during this? Like you're literally, you're, you're six months pregnant. Right? You file for divorce. What was that factor of like, everybody's always like, oh, well, what made you leave? And it's like, what was your, your decision to just start your life over is how I would like to.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  I've never publicly said, there was an incident where I had no choice. I felt to, I had to get out. And um, and that's when I filed. Um, and then we uh, kind of reconciled a little bit right after that. And part, I knew it wasn't gonna work, but I felt, you know, I came from, my mom and dad were married until death do us part, until my mom passed away. And so that was my role model and I didn't want to be divorced. So I wanted to know too, that if my girls ever talked to me about it, that I could honestly tell them I did everything I could to try to keep the marriage together, even though I knew it wasn't gonna work. And so we didn't, we reconciled shortly.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  And then after that, you know, it's a whole, it was a different time to, and I was telling the girls this. There wasn't on Instagram where instantly there would be stories out there. It was a weekly tabloid. So, and it would run all week. And then there would be another thing. And there was a time, I think I was on the cover of all these tabloids for two and a half years in a total.

• 39:16Bunnie XO?

  I'm going through, I'm going through it right now with my divorce. Everything we do is a freaking headline. And it's just like, it's, I couldn't even imagine going, but uh, so.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  It was an awful time for me because I had never gotten bad press before.

• 39:29Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  And I felt that I'm, I'm just trying to protect my girls. And my, it was, the hard thing with all that too, was that it affected my career.

• 39:39Bunnie XO?

  Right. That's what I was gonna say. Like, what's the hardest thing? Is it like surviving that situation? Or just the people not believing you that are around you?

• 39:48Speaker 01

  Um, the people that were closest to me knew the truth.

• 39:52Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  And, but then there were people that, there were people that worked for me that were starting to believe the tabloids. And I was so shocked. And I said, and, and then the truth came out.

• 40:04Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. Even though it took a while.

• 40:06Bunnie XO?

  Sit, like, how did you sit so idle and just take it on the chin like that? Because that is, that you are beauty, you are grace. Because that's like, I have the hardest time because I have the podcast. So anytime something comes up, I'm like, hey, guys. You know, like, and, but you didn't do that. You sat just so.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  It was hard. I, well, first of all, I didn't know it would go on as long as it did. And I think in hindsight, if someone said, you're gonna have to deal with this for a few years. I think I would have said, well, fuck that. I'm gonna say something. Um, it was very, very difficult because also he was on a network television show owned by a studio.

• 40:38Bunnie XO?

  And he was like loved by everybody.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  By everyone, you know, um, men wanted to be him and women wanted to be with him. And I was just.

• 40:47Bunnie XO?

  But to turn on the woman is so crazy too.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  I, I know, but it happens. And they just think, oh, she's the gold digging bitch that's trying to take him down. And I just true, I really just wanted to protect the girls. And later he thanked me, you know, he knew, um, I didn't know it'd be so public. I was surprised by that. And I really thought, well, this is my personal life. Why can't we separate it? But I lost jobs. I couldn't work. It, that was so hard for me. And at one point, I really had to form a bubble around myself. Because I thought, and I have a really good family, um, we're really close. And if it weren't for them, who knows what would have happened? Or my close, you know, core, um, friends who are my family too.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  I could have gone one way or the other. Like, it was to where I was like, I can't go into a depression. And feeling like everyone hates me and this, it was awful, awful. And, you know, I just had to block everything out. And I told everyone, I don't, I can't read anything. I can't hear about it.

• 41:53Bunnie XO?

  No.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  At the end of the day, what matters is my daughters and my family and my core group. And, you know, when, at the end of the end of the day, what's there for you is them. And do I really have, I don't, I felt like the truth will eventually come out. I didn't want to be the one to say stuff. I only said stuff, um, mostly in court documents. Sometimes as years went on and interviews, I would briefly say certain things. But I always tried to be respectful. Um, because anytime I, if I did say anything, it would backfire anyway.

• 42:24Bunnie XO?

  Right. They twist your words and.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  They twisted it. But then it was interesting then when stuff went down, then it flipped. And then even the studio, when they, things happened with him, they would pull my documents from court and use that as their defense, which I get, but it was hard to have everyone shit on me. And it's where I couldn't get a job. It was really tough.

• 42:45Bunnie XO?

  Do you still hold anger for that? Or do you look back at it compassionately now and kind of like?

• 42:50Speaker 01

  You mean towards Charlie or towards everyone?

• 42:52Bunnie XO?

  The whole such a weight. I mean, it's like PTSD, you know?

• 42:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. I did, I didn't have anger at it. I had heard that I was so misunderstood. You know, and that how could that be portrayed that way with, you know, I was just trying to protect my daughters. I wasn't, you know, trying to um, tear anyone, him down, you know, I wanted him to be the best he could. But I also wasn't gonna put my kids in a certain situation that I didn't feel was safe.

• 43:21Bunnie XO?

  Your mama bear.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so that was just, that was a very difficult time. And then I lost my mom during that time, which was really awful. And I just felt like I couldn't let my life crumble. I had two babies, you know, Sammy and Lola were a, are a year apart. They're 15 months apart.

• 43:40Bunnie XO?

  They're Irish twins. So you're going through all of this. You're in the, you guys are having the most brutal divorce publicly. And in the midst of his whole tiger blood era, you take in his two twins from his other marriage to uh, Brooke is her name. And I remember watching that as it was happening. And I even thought to myself, like, this woman is a saint. Like you are literally getting drug through the freaking media and just left and right. You can't do anything right. And in the midst of it all, you go and you save these babies and you have them live with you, you said earlier, for about a year.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  About a year they were.

• 44:16Bunnie XO?

  What put that, what, what, what's going through your mind as you're taking these babies in and in this situation?

• 44:24Speaker 01

  They, what a lot of people don't know is before that happened, I was watching them quite often. And Brooke, whenever she, she would call me and ask me, can you take the boys? Um, and I would take them. And sometimes it'd be like for a few weeks and then they would go back to her. And so their preschool got to know me. They got to know my dad, you know, we got them to school and, and then she would take them back and it would just be pretty, um, I'd be accused of all kinds of stuff. Like, and I, and then every time I'd be like, next time she calls, I can't do this. It's too much drama. But at the same time, I wanted to be there for the boys and it's my daughter's brothers.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  And then when the state got involved, um, that they would ask, like the people in the boys' lives, who would be the best person to take them? Um, and they had said me and, and so then the state asked, you know, but there's a whole thing with that too, which is very difficult, which I didn't know. Um, it's a difficult process to go through and to be part of actually. Um, so, you know, I had them for almost a year. And uh, and then they went, I believe to Brooke's brother after, after me. Um, and then I didn't see them for quite a few years, which was really hard. So, but.

• 45:44Bunnie XO?

  Do you still have a relationship with them?

• 45:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do. Yeah, we reconnected a few years ago and I'm so glad. And they remember, they were little. But I, you know, and a lot of people asked me about that too. And it's, they're, they're my daughter's brothers too. So whatever's going on with all of us adults, it's, it is what it is. And, you know, that I would, I couldn't imagine my brothers or sisters not, you know, being in the state system and having to go live with foster parents that no one even knows.

• 46:17Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  So I wanted to be there and to help them, even though it was very difficult being part of that whole system. Um, but I, you know, wanted to do what I could for them.

• 46:28Bunnie XO?

  It's amazing what you did. What's your relationship with Brooke that, uh, these days?

• 46:32Speaker 01

  Um, I haven't seen her in a long time. Unfortunately, uh, you know, she's been dealing with her addiction. Um, and it's uh, it's sad and it's tough. Um, you know, I know that we'll talk again.

• 46:48Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  And the.

• 46:50Bunnie XO?

  Do you have an open door policy?

• 46:51Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 46:52Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  I do.

• 46:53Bunnie XO?

  When you're, when you're better, come see me.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  Or call me, you know, whenever, even when she's not better, she can call. Um, I'll still talk to her and stuff.

• 47:01Bunnie XO?

  Where do you think your compassion comes from? Cause you have so much compassion for people and so much empathy, even when it's not being reciprocated.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Um, I think it's how I was raised by my parents. My mom, you know, I, Charlie would be like, were you raised in a fucking circus? Like with your family, all of these people. I grew up, you know, my grandma owned a bar in Wisconsin and there would be these, you know,

• 47:29Speaker 01

  Customers that, you know, don't, they have one leg or whatever. And my, my grandpa had

• 47:36Bunnie XO?

  Not the one leg.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  And, you know, and when I was explaining our relatives and he asked me that, I'm like, well, shit, I didn't even look at everyone that way. But I think I just grew up with, you know, a lot of, uh, people in our, in the family that had certain things going on. And my mom would always just, we just didn't judge and we just loved people and embraced them. And I didn't grow up with money. And so I, anytime, as I started making money too, and see people that are less fortunate or need help with something, I want to be there and help. I, I think it obviously, I think obviously my mom and dad.

• 48:10Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, absolutely. So let's go back to the wild things because we cannot have a podcast without talking about wild things. Let me get to, to it in my notes. Because do you feel like Wild Things was kind of like your breakout that like kind of made you?

• 48:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:26Bunnie XO?

  A household name? And I know it was because of the kiss, but I mean, I just think the whole movie and that whole era was, you know, fricking iconic. So take me on this journey with Wild Things.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  So I had just shot Starship Troopers and auditioned for Wild Things completely. Oh, and by the way, in Starship Troopers, Paul Verhoeven, before we started shooting, we had a big, um, we got to do pre-production, which doesn't happen on a lot of movies, but this one it did where we had a couple of months to prep and everything. He called me into his office and he said, um, so I wrote a scene and he showed it to me and you're gonna be topless in it and this and that. And I was scared to death. Like I worked so hard to get this movie. Mind you, I auditioned for Showgirls.

• 49:07Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  And I said to him.

• 49:09Bunnie XO?

  You would have been naked the whole time.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so I said to Paul, I said, Paul, um, I don't, I, I can't do that scene. It's not, and he's like, well, you would have, you were gonna be naked for me. And Showgirls, I go, yeah, but that's a completely different part. It's a different, this is just, yeah, I said, this makes no sense for the scene. If I was in the shower scene with everyone else, okay, yeah, you're naked in a shower, but this is just so you could see my tits. And I said, I just, and I, I left, I drove away crying, called my agent. I said, I think I just got fucking fired.

• 49:42Bunnie XO?

  Oh, no.

• 49:42Speaker 01

  And then he was like, what do you mean? I told him, I was so scared I was gonna get fired. So cut to, I auditioned for, um, Wild Things and, uh, John McNauton, the director of Wild Things, spoke to Paul and asked how I was to work with and saw some dailies because Starship hadn't been out yet.

• 49:59Bunnie XO?

  Hmm.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  And then I just, I read with Nev and I got the part and I was so nervous to do, not only is, it's not just topless.

• 50:08Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, you're making out.

• 50:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. And back then I had a threesome with a teacher. It was like so inappropriate, the whole thing.

• 50:15Bunnie XO?

  I feel like the movie was brilliant though, and people.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  I liked the script.

• 50:18Bunnie XO?

  Literally. I feel like it was a brilliant movie and that just because of that shock value moment, it just literally like just took over the whole movie.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:27Bunnie XO?

  And like, so I think, did you feel like it got lost in translation because of that scene?

• 50:30Speaker 01

  Um, not really. Cause I think a lot of people thought from the trailer, oh, we get to see two girls naked with each other kissing. And then, um, you know, threesome with the champagnes or certain things that ended up in the trailer. But I think then when, once people saw the movie, they saw, oh, there's a story here. And there's some plot twists at the end. And at the, you know, at the time, you know, Nev was off of, uh, Scream and Party at Five. And Matt Dillon was Something About Mary. And, you know, these, I was the unknown in the movie. And, um, I was terrified to shoot that movie. Uh, very scared.

• 51:07Bunnie XO?

  Can you take us to the day of filming that scene?

• 51:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, the first scene we did, um, I believe it was Nev and I, we, we did that one first.

• 51:18Bunnie XO?

  The first, the pool scene?

• 51:19Speaker 01

  The pool scene.

• 51:20Bunnie XO?

  Was the first scene?

• 51:20Speaker 01

  No, not the first scene, sorry. The first naked scene.

• 51:22Bunnie XO?

  Okay, gotcha, I gotcha. I was like, damn, they threw you to the wolves.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, we were, we shot for three months down in South Beach. Um, and it was great to film there and be on location. I was scared again. I was like the nobody and all these big actors that I was working with and I was so intimidated. Um, we waited to shoot those scenes because the director, he wanted us to be comfortable. And I'm so glad that he didn't do it right first week up.

• 51:53Bunnie XO?

  Like as you guys worked together and got to know each other more and stuff like that?

• 51:56Speaker 01

  He wanted us to be a little bit more comfortable. Um, I think, yeah. And so it was, I felt comfortable with Nev and we just talked to each other. It was actually easier to shoot with her that way than with a guy. Cause like with a girl, you can say, can you, we can share our insecurities or parts of our body or whatever. I felt more comfortable saying, do you mind like blocking this? But I would feel insecure to say that I don't necessarily want to.

• 52:25Bunnie XO?

  To a man.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, point that out. Especially I was so young and, you know, it was one of my first big jobs too. So I wasn't gonna necessarily.

• 52:33Bunnie XO?

  What is Denise Richards insecure about in this moment?

• 52:36Speaker 01

  Well, it's, no, I mean, I was in every, I mean, I, everything. I was so naive, so young. Um, and not intimidated by them because they were just.

• 52:47Bunnie XO?

  The big dogs. Yeah. And Matt Dillon was fine back in the day.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, he, very.

• 52:52Bunnie XO?

  That was his era.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, and also it was, and the content of the movie. And back then it was very risque for the time. And I think because they actually thought I was younger than I was. They kept asking and, you know, you didn't have to hand over the way you do all your, and I, I'm like, no, I'm really, I think I was 25, 25 or 26, but I was like a young 25, 26 year old.

• 53:18Bunnie XO?

  You still have a young essence to you, like sitting across from you now. You do, you're young, you appear to be younger than you are. So that's just a, a beautiful.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  My face left.

• 53:29Bunnie XO?

  It's a beautiful blessing that you got in this life, sister.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  But I was also just naive and, um, you know, I didn't, anyway, there was a lot of shit that happened on that. Um.

• 53:42Bunnie XO?

  What is your favorite scene that is in Wild Things that nobody ever asks you about because of the scene, obviously, that everybody wants to know about? Is there like another scene that you love?

• 53:52Speaker 01

  Well, I'll tell you the people that I, I, I always remember like off camera when I'm working, like when even people ask me, what's your favorite movie and stuff like that? It's, I always think of the moments that all of us actors off camera, a time in my life. Um, I really enjoyed working with Kevin Bacon.

• 54:08Bunnie XO?

  Aww.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  And Teresa Russell.

• 54:10Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Uh, who played my mom. She was awesome. And she was so good at giving me advice. And then, you know, Bill Murray was down the hall.

• 54:18Bunnie XO?

  I fricking love Bill Murray.

• 54:19Speaker 01

  And he would run, I would see him going to the gym and he'd run with his cup of coffee, like a ceramic cup. It was like to go cup and going on the treadmill. And I just thought he was so funny. Um, he was great with me, by the way. It's not him that was inappropriate.

• 54:34Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  Um, but, uh, it was, I, I really, it was great to work with Kevin and, um, Teresa in particular. They were very protective of me, I felt, and watched over me and gave me, you know, really good advice. Um.

• 54:50Bunnie XO?

  Kevin's an OG. He was just in Something New that we were looking through movies the other night. And I was like, Kevin Bacon's still acting? Like that's crazy.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  I love, he had his wife and his kids there and he's a family man and just very professional and very, he's a class act.

• 55:06Bunnie XO?

  He seems like it. And never, never any weird shit has ever came out about him? Like he's just like a standard dude.

• 55:12Speaker 01

  No, he's a good person. So that I, I really enjoyed working with them and then, but when Wild Things came out, it was, Starship Troopers came out and then like, and we went on a huge press tour with all of that. And then four months later, Wild Things. Paul Verhoeven was the first to call me. And he was, he was very complimentary. He's like, so you got naked, you wouldn't get naked for me, but you got naked for this movie? And I'm like, well, Paul, it's a threesome scene. And you know, it does warrant, I guess, some clothing to come off. He was very sweet.

• 55:43Bunnie XO?

  Look where it got me.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  And very, he was very, um, he was great though.

• 55:47Bunnie XO?

  Aw.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. But that was a, a very crazy time when all that hit at once.

• 55:52Bunnie XO?

  That's what I was about to say. Like you hit like the jackpot and it just all of a sudden, that's when you're just get, you know, shot off into stardom.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's overwhelming too. When I look back, I think, wow, that was a lot. And I didn't even realize it.

• 56:06Bunnie XO?

  But it's like, it's like you're in fucking fight or flight. You're like in survival mode when you're going through stuff like that. And like your trajectory is just going up and up and up. It's almost like it's so hard to live in the moment. Do you feel like you didn't get to live in the moment as much as you should have?

• 56:19Speaker 01

  No, I, what was weird for me was to see if I, I did a lot of press and different magazine shoots and stuff and where people were saying I was a sex symbol. Like I didn't see that girl. I saw the girl like in sweats and like, you know, hanging out with my friends. And, um, so that's what was surreal for me. When I look back now at all of that. And then after that I did Drop Dead Gorgeous and then Bond was like.

• 56:45Bunnie XO?

  Yes.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  Worldwide. I had no idea how the magnitude of that movie.

• 56:49Bunnie XO?

  Yes.

• 56:49Speaker 01

  And so, you know, when they say like, oh, fame happens overnight. It's like you work for 10 years and it takes that one job though, that changes. You go from no one knowing you to people knowing who you are. And that part is, I think, what's overwhelming. Um, as a young actress and actor, when that hits.

• 57:07Bunnie XO?

  Did it ever get, um, I don't know if the word annoying is probably the perfect word to use here, but did it ever get, um, did it ever put a bad taste in your mouth that everybody was so focused on your looks? And like a lot of pressure too.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  What was hard was when I wanted to try and play other roles of a girl with a little bit more substance. And it's like, you, you know, I was looked at a certain way and I thought, well, I have issues. I have shit that I'm insecure about. I've had crap that's happened in life that, you know, just because someone looks a certain way, doesn't mean that they don't have shit going on. You know, so that's when it would get hard for me is when I would want to play this role and they don't see you that way. I'm like, why? I, and even though they, you know, my agent knew me, knew me very well. And you know, that, that was always a, um, you know, a battle when I was trying to play other roles that

• 58:05Speaker 01

  were more girl next door, or you know, something a little different. I wasn't seen that way at all.

• 58:11Bunnie XO?

  Especially back then, like the nineties and the two thousands was like the bombshell era. So they were just pushing that narrative of like, you know, hot, beautiful women, which, can we bring it back? Cause I kind of miss that era, you know, like I understand that we all, we all have brains and stuff like that too. But I just feel like it was such an iconic time where there were so many beautiful women and like talented women. And I don't know, it was just a really cool era.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  I agree with you and, and going back to what you said, did it annoy me? I, I didn't realize that the level of being seen that way, like I didn't know until now I do, looking back. Do you know what I mean? I didn't know that people knew who I was. I never thought of myself that way. Um, and having people, now I'm like, oh, I didn't look so bad. I wish I embraced that more. Do you know what I mean? Like it was, uh, to me that was a character and, but I also, it's not, you know, I certainly didn't help it by doing shoots where, I mean, I didn't exactly look like girl fucking next door in these shoots either.

• 59:15Bunnie XO?

  You're a hot momma.

• 59:17Speaker 01

  You know, but I think I was, I shied away from it too. I don't think I embraced my sexuality. Um, at that age and during that time, I was very careful with interviews and being a people pleaser. I didn't want to, you know, that was the other thing. When I did Bond, when we did this big press tour, we had to do media training and that actually made it worse. I felt like, I felt like, oh God, I have to be rehearsed so much. Yeah. And I felt like I couldn't be myself. You know what the silver lining with my divorce with Charlie and having so much bad shit said about me? That is what freed me to be myself because I was like, well, crap, if I'm being careful and people are saying this, then I'm just going to be myself and who cares if someone doesn't like me or they say something.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  So that was the one good thing that came out of, uh, all that bad press was I got to be my, me. And not just being careful what I say in interviews, you know?

• 1:00:09Bunnie XO?

  I also feel like that's growth because as women, I feel like when we're in our twenties and even thirties, we're like so people pleasers, we're like so unsure of ourselves. We care about what everybody thinks. And then you hit your forties and your late forties and your fifties and you're just kind of like, I don't give a fuck what anybody thinks about me. Like I'm just gonna be me. And I think that that, that, that is the beauty of aging, especially in this industry is because we develop so much wisdom and people get to see that, you know, more so with you, but they get to see the growth through all the years.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  I agree. I think as we get older, we care less about that.

• 1:00:46Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  Um, and that's what I like about my daughter, Sammy is she has the confidence to just be herself.

• 1:00:51Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  And I wish I had that back then too, you know?

• 1:00:54Bunnie XO?

  Absolutely. So let's talk about Eloise a little bit. Um, you take me on this journey with her and adopting her, bringing her into your life. Um, how did motherhood change with you and the girls, but then also raising Eloise?

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  So I've always wanted to adopt and after my divorce with Charlie, I didn't want to, I didn't want to not have another, I knew, I felt like there was another soul and that, um, I wasn't done and I wanted to start the adoption process on my own. And I thought, well, if another man comes into my life, I don't know how long this is going to take. Then, you know, it is what it is. And otherwise I'll do this by myself. And she was, um, there were quite a few different situations that, um, it was a closed adoption. I wanted to do, um, a closed private and she was number 13.

• 1:01:51Bunnie XO?

  Lucky number 13?

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, um, when she was born, she's special needs and we, I did not know, you know, and it wouldn't have changed anything. I still would have, you know, become her mom. Um, but it was really hard to diagnose her and, uh, but when I first adopted her, the girls, Sammy and Lola were six and seven years old when she was born and right away they felt like I had her and they still, they say it and they just such great big sisters. They would feed her. They loved, um, from day one, it felt like she was their sister, she is their sister. And, but as Eloise wasn't meeting certain milestones, um,

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  because I didn't give birth to her, I, you know, we first thought, okay, she's just a late developer. Um, if I had given birth, we would, okay, this isn't typically genetically with my other girls. Um, but then it was really tough trying to figure out what was going on and all these tests and, uh, went to children's hospital and finally did like a genetics test on her. It was so expensive, this test. And with insurance, it was $15,000. Yeah. And then, um, then they had to test her a couple of times after they narrowed down, um, the genes that they were testing. So

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  she was diagnosed with a chromosome disorder where she's, uh, got a deletion of chromosome eight and the genes that were, they gave me this whole printout of all these genes that she doesn't have in chromosome eight. Um, and when the specialist told me and gave this to me, I said, well, um, can I talk to maybe some other parents? Cause she said they didn't have a lot of information, much information at all. She's like, well, she's the only one. I thought, wow, at children's hospital, she's the only one. So no, she's the only one in the US database of this particular, um, there were other children that had a chromosome disorder in eight, but not the specific genes that she had the deletion.

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  So I was like, oh, oh, fuck. What do I do? Like, you know, I like,

• 1:04:02Bunnie XO?

  She's one of one.

• 1:04:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so it's been challenging, but such, um,

• 1:04:08Bunnie XO?

  What comes with that? Um, if it just, pardon my, I don't know.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  No, she didn't crawl until she was a year and a half.

• 1:04:16Bunnie XO?

  Okay.

• 1:04:17Speaker 01

  Um, my other daughters were around six, seven months old when they started crawling. And then she didn't start walking until two and a half years old. She was almost five when she was completely out of diapers. And it was terrible. Like in the beginning, before I was public about what was going on with her, people would make comments, oh, she's still carrying her daughter in the parking lot, the grocery store. And I'm like, if I put her down, she will bolt. It was just, she just didn't know that there's a car right there. And, and so there's a lot of development delays with her muscle tone with that stuff. And then also she's primarily non-verbal. She can only say

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  like a handful of words. She can't do a sentence. And when she says words, except for no, she says that clear. She can say ma, not mom. Um, and the, the other word she says is like a whisper. And so she has had speech therapy. It doesn't, you know, a, as a matter of fact, it kind of shut her down. Um, I have a private teacher with her that works with her and, uh, it's, um, it's kind of like she's, oh, at times it feels that she's 15 now. And she's still, I still have to help her with getting dressed. Um, like putting her shoes on two different feet, putting her clothes on backwards. So I still have to help her.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  And she'll need care the rest of her life. Like I, she's never, she wants to, you know, she points at blue cars. Blue's her favorite color. And it's sad because she's never going to be able to drive, you know? Because one minute she seems like she's her age and then, and then she's like a toddler, you know? But she's so aware and she's very, um, caring and compassionate. She loves animals. For instance, we were, Sammy went out of town and I had to feed her cats. And I told Eloise, no, you gotta remind mommy to feed her. Cause I wanted, she likes having a job. And so she has a cell phone and I FaceTime her. I can't call her without, I have to see her face. So she gives me a thumbs up, thumbs down. I understand her.

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  Uh, we tried sign language. She has her own. We tried the ASL. It did not work. Um, for us and, um, but you know, she had in her phone, an emoji cat next to Sammy's name. She pointed, I'm like, oh good, we have to go feed her cats. So she understands so much. And I also feel she sees, um, spirits. Cause I'll see her mouthing to someone or dancing. Patrick Muldoon, my friend that passed, she had such a deep connection with him. And she even felt, oh God, I'm going to start crying that, you know, he came to her and she could see him and stuff. So you know, she has this gift, I feel that's on another level.

• 1:07:08Speaker 01

  But she, you know, she's never going to be a normal kid. And I worry like as she gets older, you know, and when I'm gone.

• 1:07:20Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  You know, so I wish that, but we don't know what she'll.

• 1:07:27Speaker 01

  You know, this is kind of where she's at and it doesn't improve.

• 1:07:31Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:07:32Bunnie XO?

  What do you think the biggest lesson is that she's taught you in this life?

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  Um, the simple things, like the simplest things make her so happy. You know, when the girls fight about stuff, she goes like this, like they're crazy. And she.

• 1:07:48Bunnie XO?

  I love how aware she is of things.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  Almost, she's so aware, like on another level, not to sound woo wee, but you know what I mean? Like I feel that.

• 1:07:56Bunnie XO?

  I one hundred percent believe that.

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I I've asked her and she she will, if she doesn't know something or do something, she's she's fine saying no. And I asked her, I'm like, do you see spirits or can feel spirits? And she has nodded that she does, but um, you know, with the girls and I tell them, like, look at Eloise is so happy just to, like her Barbies, the one dog always choose them up and the arm will be off and she loves her. My older girls will be like, I want a new Barbie, you know, that kind of thing. And she embraces the disabilities of these dolls from the dog. Yeah, and she's just simple and just um, takes in all her surroundings. And that's like step and smell the roses is what she's taught me.

• 1:08:38Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  And I think the older girls too.

• 1:08:40Bunnie XO?

  Again, it's a testament of who you are, you know, you're taking in these babies. You um, adopted a special needs daughter, like you just have so much love that you pour into people. And um, I I just hope that one day you find your person that will be pouring love into you. Or you know what, at this point, I'm not even going to say that to people anymore because I'm going through it too. I feel like we we're here to pour love into ourselves.

• 1:09:03Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 1:09:03Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  That I will do.

• 1:09:04Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  I won't get married again.

• 1:09:06Bunnie XO?

  No, never.

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  Never.

• 1:09:08Bunnie XO?

  Never, ever, ever, which we're about to start talking about that in a second. But let's talk about your stint on Housewives. How was that? Because I I remember following it a little bit, but then it got a little crazy and I just almost felt so bad for you. I was like, I can't watch this.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it was um.

• 1:09:27Bunnie XO?

  It was you and Brandy, right? Brandy?

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so in the beginning when I did it, I was again naive to it because I just wanted to be myself on the show. Uh, because a lot of people know me as an actress, they've seen me do interviews and I feel, I'm like, I'm not going to create a character. I want to be me.

• 1:09:44Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  Um, I feel that people would see through that and.

• 1:09:49Bunnie XO?

  They do, and the cameras, cameras pick up the fakeness. Do you feel like the Housewives are real, like the ones that are on there? Or do you feel like some of them?

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  I feel that for the most part, I feel those some are um, different on camera and off camera. And so that's confusing. Actually, when I met with the producers, I wore Guns N' Roses tee shirt.

• 1:10:08Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  And jeans, I did my own hair makeup and I told them, I said, they said I was the first, probably the only star, gone and looking like that, you know, I said, you guys can see on the red carpet, you can pull up the picture of me all glam.

• 1:10:22Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  This is how I really dress and real life, unless I, you know, have somewhere that I have to get dressed up for. And I asked them, I said, if you want me to do that, I I can do that because I still am acting. I'm still going to events and so that part I felt was still authentic and truthful, that part of me. But um, at home, if you want this, and they wanted me, they're like, no, stay who you are.

• 1:10:46Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:47Speaker 01

  So I think at first the Housewives were shocked by that, that.

• 1:10:51Bunnie XO?

  Which is crazy, that that's what shocked them.

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  Well, I'm also the stupid idiot because when we went to the Bahamas, which was a weekend of me filming, literally I packed like, I think the night before morning of, and I was just, meanwhile, I didn't know they were all like, planning their outfits for probably two fucking months. And I was like, okay, we're going to the Bahamas and I I didn't organize all my damn outfits. I just wore what I would go if I was with a bunch of girlfriends.

• 1:11:19Bunnie XO?

  Real, I love that about you.

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  I thought I was such a dumb fuck, I swear to God. Oh, man, I was just, anyway, I was myself. And then, so then the second season, I was so um, hurt by Lisa Rinna because I knew her for 20 years. And I was shocked and I didn't even know where it was coming from. And um, I didn't even watch a few of the episodes because it was so out of nowhere. And um, I had done a movie with Patrick Muldoon again. He's like a friend of forever, like we were more than even brother and sister. It's like we had such, his family's my family and he's just, I've known him, we've known each other before anyone else knew who we were. And I was 18 years old when I met him.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  And so we were doing a movie together and she heard that he was in and she had a huge crush on him. And she's like, if I um, if if I can interview you for my podcast, can I interview him? I've had such a crush on him and I said, yeah, I'm sure he'll do it. And and I didn't know her well at all. I had met her um, through an agent briefly. And then I filmed one thing with her and then that was it. And so we did the podcast and I did my interview with her and then she did with Pat. But I'm like, you gotta like tone it down, like, and so Brandy was doing a podcast.

• 1:12:43Bunnie XO?

  Okay, gotcha.

• 1:12:44Speaker 01

  And so then I did an interview and then um, then she interviewed Pat and I wasn't there for the interview. And then it was like a year and a half later, uh, this was brought up on the show. And but I remember Teddy saying something to me, um, oh, she said you guys had sex. I thought she was talking about me and Pat because she would say to me like, I know you're sleeping with him. I'm like, I'm not sleeping with him, we've been broken up for years. I said, he's my best friend and Aaron's got to be like pissed off and whatever. And I said, he's not, he like, he knows my relationship, but actually was a deal breaker. If you don't embrace him and forget it.

• 1:13:22Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  So um, that, so I thought she was talking about him at first when they, and then when I was like, oh my God, for fuck's sake, really?

• 1:13:30Bunnie XO?

  I feel like Brandy, and I'm going to be very choosy with my words here. I feel like Brandy um, leans into the villain character a lot. And sometimes it might become her reality and that's why she drives at home so hard.

• 1:13:46Speaker 01

  I I felt actually bad for her because no one was talking to her. And I'm like, the one person that was nice to you, you fucking do that too, you know what I mean? Um, and so, yeah, no, it was really weird and out of nowhere. And when I say the Bravo Bravo fucking Bravo, it had nothing to do with that. It was something else where they were also for, every time I'd go to dinner, they would bring up some bullshit about threesomes or this or that. And I'm like, they thought I was mad at them and I'm like, I'm not mad, like, can we move on from? It was like, I don't know why they were wanting to make such an issue. All I I just said, made one comment at a dinner we had saying, I just didn't want them to talk about that with the kids right there. Yes, do I do stuff and then later it's on film?

• 1:14:31Speaker 01

  I'm like, yeah, I hope my kids don't see it, but if they do, they do. But while they're sitting right there, I don't want to talk about stuff, you know?

• 1:14:37Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  But um, yeah, no, it was a really weird thing.

• 1:14:41Bunnie XO?

  Jealousy too, you know, because you were the new girl and it's like, I almost feel like it's almost like a hazing that they put people through.

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  I I just thought I I thought, you know, this probably isn't gonna land well.

• 1:14:54Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 1:14:54Speaker 01

  You know, like, you know what I mean?

• 1:14:56Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  And then I'm like, also, I'm I'm open about a lot of shit.

• 1:15:02Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:02Speaker 01

  It would have been easier to say, yeah, and, you know, like, should I have lied and said certain things or whatever? But it was just such a weird thing. I was, but I was more so, more than anything, I was so hurt by Lisa Rinna. That was.

• 1:15:17Bunnie XO?

  What happened with Lisa?

• 1:15:19Speaker 01

  Well, she's the one that was, I believe, she just was pushing that and this, and she knows me and um.

• 1:15:25Bunnie XO?

  So you guys were like homies, like, like off camera?

• 1:15:28Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Okay. Yeah, I knew her for 20 years.

• 1:15:30Bunnie XO?

  Wow.

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  So, you know, not anymore, no, no.

• 1:15:34Bunnie XO?

  So that ruined you guys' friendship, oh, I hate that.

• 1:15:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was uh, it was, you know, I, we've talked a couple of times since, but I mean, I'm.

• 1:15:43Bunnie XO?

  If she reached out and apologized and like genuinely meant it, would you guys rekindle? Because a 20 year friendship is a lot.

• 1:15:48Speaker 01

  Well, I think you find out about people, I always say you find out about people when you work with them, live with them or travel with them. I had never worked with her until this show, so I found out I don't really want to be friends with that person so much. But that's okay, she doesn't want to be friends with me either, so that's fine. Um, but it is what it is and I don't, um, in hindsight, I probably should have stayed on this show. Also, though, I think things are going really bad with my marriage too.

• 1:16:16Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 1:16:17Speaker 01

  And I did, yeah, and so I was also concerned about certain things. Um, and COVID happens, it was like a combination of stuff.

• 1:16:29Speaker 01

  In hindsight, I probably should have stayed on and, but I was like, everyone hated me and it didn't seem, I didn't want it to not feel genuine either. Like, we're supposed to be friends on this show and I was friends with some, now I'm not. And then Garcelle, thank God, I was friends with her. But it was so, it was also a weird time too, of what's going on with um, COVID.

• 1:16:51Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:51Speaker 01

  And not knowing if we're filming and then everyone hated me and then things weren't so great with the person I was with. So it was a combination of things.

• 1:16:59Bunnie XO?

  Okay, so moving on from the Housewives stuff, I did hear you say in um, in the middle of that, that you were going through some stuff behind the scenes with the person that you were married to.

• 1:17:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, we won't name his names.

• 1:17:10Bunnie XO?

  We're not going to say no names today.

• 1:17:12Speaker 01

  I was just to pick people, um, no, with Aaron, who the person I'm divorcing, yes, there was some stuff um, that I was dealing with, but I didn't know I was really dealing with it back then, if that makes sense. I just knew stuff wasn't right and.

• 1:17:28Bunnie XO?

  When you say that, can we have some examples of like what was going on?

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  Well, I feel.

• 1:17:38Speaker 01

  I mean, obviously, I was in an abusive marriage. Um, it didn't start out that way, though.

• 1:17:42Bunnie XO?

  Physically?

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  Physically. Um, and and emotionally, financially, all of it. Um, he was a completely different person than the person I married. And, um,

• 1:17:57Bunnie XO?

  Do you feel like you were conned?

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Definitely. Yeah, that's the hardest part of it is that, you know, we were together just over eight years, married, little over six, and it's, um,

• 1:18:14Speaker 01

  I never thought I would have been in this situation ever. I and now I get it like when, you know, it's easy to say, why wouldn't someone leave? Or, um, you should have known, you should have seen these things. And a lot of people ask me that. And it's, I didn't, I wouldn't have married the person, you know? Um, so I I've learned so much of who he is during the separation. Um, we split a year ago, Fourth of July weekend. We're still not divorced.

• 1:18:46Bunnie XO?

  What was the, okay, so let's bring it back to the beginning. Um, so where did you guys meet? And how did how did he come into your life? So that people who don't know the whole story can kind of get a picture and then we can paint the entire situation that's happening for everybody?

• 1:19:02Speaker 01

  Aaron had a business of what I would call kind of like a wellness, um, healing place. It was a lot of stuff that people are just now, I think, um, seeing on, you know, Instagram and stuff like that, like the biohacking and a lot of frequency.

• 1:19:22Bunnie XO?

  Toxic men that the ones that push the healing and wellness.

• 1:19:26Speaker 01

  Fuck, Jesus.

• 1:19:28Bunnie XO?

  It seems to be a trend.

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  Uh, he, so I, I, a friend, a mutual friend wanted to set me up with him. And I had met him in passing. And I'm like, he's not my type. And no, not really interested. And then I started after my mom passed away, she, um, had renal cell carcinoma, which is kidney cancer. And seeing what she went through, I really wanted to learn more about like preventative and health and wellness and all of that. And so, uh, I wanted to, so I went to Aaron, he had a, like a place where, um,

• 1:20:06Speaker 01

  I became a client. And I was the perfect, uh, like, woman prey for him because, you know, I had had my divorce with Charlie. I'm a single mom. I have my youngest daughter. I just found out her diagnosis. And I felt like, oh, I've been single for quite a few years. And I was ready to like, you know, meet someone. He was the last person I ever thought. And it's so true. Like when they say, oh, when you least expect it. I've never had a situation like this either where I was became friendly and then turned into, um, a relationship. It was always that instant chemistry and all of that. And so, yeah, I got to know him over four months while I was a client. And we

• 1:20:51Speaker 01

  we knew some mutual people. And then, you know, started to date. And he just seemed like a really good man, that he was very low key, didn't come from money, always, this was also probably a big fucking red flag to saying, I don't care about your career that way, or, you know, how much money, I'm very low maintenance. And and his actions even showed that, too. And, you know, he seemed like a manly man, like he could help me with stuff, but in a, in a nice, in a relationship way, not where, you know, it's hard to explain. It just seemed like a good, a good man to, like a

• 1:21:36Speaker 01

  guy's guy, a good man, and just very seemed very nurturing. And, um, you know, we had, we were together, I would, I think around almost two years before we got married. And, and no signs of anything that would be a red flag for me. And then I was after we got married, still good. And looking back, like, really trying to see where I was trying to really see where, when did this really start? And, um, he's Canadian, and he, uh, has a green card because being married to me. And I, I, when I think about it, it's like, that's really after he got the green card, was

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  kind of when things started to shift.

• 1:22:24Bunnie XO?

  Wow.

• 1:22:25Speaker 01

  And then, um,

• 1:22:27Bunnie XO?

  How so?

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  Um, verbally abusive. And it was a slow burn. This wasn't overnight. It was like slowly chipping away, putting doubts in my head about certain things. Um, and then I'll never forget the one time when he first hit me. I was so shocked. I was like, oh, fuck, there's no going back from this. My dad always taught my sister and I always said, if a man hits you once, he'll hit you again. And I told him, I said, I, I don't know, I don't know how to, what to do.

• 1:23:06Bunnie XO?

  He hit you on your face?

• 1:23:07Speaker 01

  Hit my face.

• 1:23:07Bunnie XO?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:23:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, slapped me across the face.

• 1:23:10Bunnie XO?

  Wow.

• 1:23:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it was shocking and startling. And I, I'd like, he got so angry and just hit me. And so, he was crying and, please forgive me, I don't know what happened. It'll never happen again. And it's the typical thing that you hear from women who come out of relationships like this. And I never thought in a million years it would be me. And that's the thing that I think is hard.

• 1:23:36Bunnie XO?

  Don't be hard on yourself, though, because it's, um, those types of relationships are normally like, very passionate. And that's what we get addicted to is the, because I was in a severely abusive relationship also. And what women get addicted to in those is the push and pull of

• 1:23:53Speaker 01

  You see who they were that you fell in love with.

• 1:23:56Bunnie XO?

  Exactly.

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  They're so remorseful. He was so remorseful. And to the where I felt bad for him.

• 1:24:01Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 1:24:01Speaker 01

  Where I'm like, it's not that bad.

• 1:24:03Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:04Speaker 01

  I played it down. After I got through the initial, I don't know what to do. My dad has always, I've always, my dad's always said this, and I can't, I cannot be in abusive relationship. I didn't know even the mental part of it at that point.

• 1:24:18Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  But looking back, it was happening. I just wasn't aware of it at that time. He knew little things to say to me to put doubts in my head, to make me feel insecure.

• 1:24:28Bunnie XO?

  Like about yourself?

• 1:24:29Speaker 01

  Everything. Yeah, like, um, choices I was making, things that I was doing. I was also in between like business managers, a lot of, I don't know if you've had this experience, and if you haven't, thank God, you haven't. But some of us in entertainment have had situations with business managers who have done certain things and that you not, you know, not the greatest. And so I was in between some things. And I was also working a lot. And he was like, I'll help you, I'll take care of, I'll help you with your finances. That was the biggest mistake I made. And so I, I stupidly put him on as a signee on my one account. And, oh, that was really bad. But but going back, you know, I thought, okay, he's really, he had my best interest. He made me

• 1:25:13Speaker 01

  believe he was taking care of me. And, you know, wanted to build a life with me.

• 1:25:18Bunnie XO?

  That's what abusers do.

• 1:25:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I really felt like we were building a life together. And was so close to Eloise. Um, Sammy, I think she, well, she knew from, she did not like him from day one. Lola, she was sweet. And she liked him. She liked him for me. She believed him too, I believe.

• 1:25:37Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:38Speaker 01

  Um, until the end.

• 1:25:39Bunnie XO?

  I love that Sammy saw through him, though.

• 1:25:41Speaker 01

  She saw through him.

• 1:25:41Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:42Speaker 01

  But I'm like, you don't like anyone right now, Sammy. You're thirteen.

• 1:25:45Bunnie XO?

  That's the one you keep close to, though. The one that doesn't like anybody, keep close to you.

• 1:25:49Speaker 01

  True. And she's the one I had to lie the most to with him, with everything. And it was just, you know, it's hard, it was slow, but it was a chip away at me to where I felt like a piece of shit. And then, um,

• 1:26:04Bunnie XO?

  He's breaking you down.

• 1:26:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:06Bunnie XO?

  Because abusers love to break down strong women.

• 1:26:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, and I was broken. And he, then he would slowly, the, the physical started more and more. Then he moved his family down from Canada and told me they were just staying for a while. And that I said, I, it was his mom, dad, brother. Then it turned into another brother and a sister in law that neither one of us had married. Five people. This was during COVID. Year, it was 2021, like, towards the end of it, they made up some bullshit excuse, came down, two Great Danes, two pit bulls, two cats, and five people.

• 1:26:41Bunnie XO?

  What?

• 1:26:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:42Bunnie XO?

  In your house?

• 1:26:43Speaker 01

  In my house. A house that, by the way, I was leasing with Aaron. I had sold my house in Hen Hills. And then, thank God, I did not buy a house with him.

• 1:26:51Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 1:26:51Speaker 01

  So we were leasing this, we leased it. And, uh, so I didn't own it. We didn't own it. Um, so I'm very respectful of, you know, um, that was five years ago. The brother with the wife left after four months, and then the others are still here, five years later.

• 1:27:09Bunnie XO?

  Wow.

• 1:27:10Speaker 01

  It was after they moved down, I feel is when he really shifted. I, I was seeing a man that I didn't even know. And I kept, and then it would be like, parts of that with the abuse. And then he would back off and apologize. I'm so sorry. I just, I feel pressure, my family, the this. And, um, he told me all these business deals that he was, um, putting together. And then the borrowing the money started with me and pulling money out when, as soon as I would fly somewhere to work, he would take money out of my accounts that I didn't know. And it was, it was, and I take responsibility that I wasn't watching that stuff. But at the same time,

• 1:27:48Bunnie XO?

  You shouldn't have to.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  I loved him, and I trusted him. And I felt like he had my best interest and that we were building a life together. I co-signed stupidly, right before we got married, his lease on his place in Malibu, where he moved to center. And because he wasn't, uh, he didn't have his green card at that point. Um, and that wasn't smart. Um, he ended up, I ended up having to pick up all the rent on that. It was just terrible. It went from bad to worse. But then the physical started so much. Um, and it was, when that was, it was stuff that I could hide, you know, like, on my arms or something. And then he gave me a black eye. And that was where I was like, oh, oh, fuck, how am I gonna, what am I gonna do now? What am I gonna tell people? It was awful.

• 1:28:34Speaker 01

  It was awful. And it was something, his cousin was there, she worked for him. She was right there and saw it happen. He started to, um, He had these plants uh by a woman that gave uh she gave to him and I later learned some things about that woman so.

• 1:28:53Bunnie XO?

  He was having an affair.

• 1:28:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:54Bunnie XO?

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:28:56Speaker 01

  I didn't know at the time, but he made up some bullshit thing that's saying there was like listening devices in these things and he got crazy like he would show put a device up to it and it would I'm like alright, let's just put them outside.

• 1:29:09Bunnie XO?

  Does he use drugs or was it a peptide he was taking or?

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  No, I think um I I mean, I learned that part after um he just was I think I was seeing the real person.

• 1:29:25Bunnie XO?

  Wow.

• 1:29:25Speaker 01

  You know, and um

• 1:29:28Bunnie XO?

  Do you think there's a

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  He started to fight or argue and stuff and then the a cop showed up at his place and he took went into the kitchen of his place and then uh his cousin and I had to answer the door and the cop said someone heard some arguing or screaming or something and played it down. He laughed and then I sat down and Erin came out and just looked at me goes you fucking bitch and he used this part of his hand and gave me a black eye. And at at that moment, I was like, oh, my God, I think I thought is my eye? Okay, I was so scared.

• 1:30:03Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:03Speaker 01

  So scared. So you know, it's when people ask me to like the other times it happened and then it was just all the time. You know, doing stuff, but they asked me, how come you never called the police? I'm like, I didn't call the police and they showed up and that's what happened to me. So he had always told me, you know, I would.

• 1:30:25Bunnie XO?

  Well, they control the it's not easy. When you're in an abusive relationship, I people are always like, why didn't you leave? They it takes a woman, they say seven times of leaving before they can actually really leave their abuser. Um, it's it's not easy for a woman, especially if they have money, especially it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what walk of life you're in. If you're in an abusive relationship, you will never know what it's like. Unless you're in that and to ask somebody, well, why didn't you leave? I feel like that is just kind of like.

• 1:30:53Speaker 01

  I I know.

• 1:30:54Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, it's

• 1:30:55Speaker 01

  I don't I I know, I feel and and this is the opposite. Like, I'm the one that made the money.

• 1:31:00Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 1:31:00Speaker 01

  And I was scared to leave because also he had his family here. And um, you know, and I'm afraid of them too. Uh, I actually moved out of the house that that we were leasing and everything and but it was for towards the very end, it became where it was my normal, like as far as if a couple gets into a disagreement like, okay, do you guys yell or does one walk away or whatever? Our normal became where I would be hit or pushed down on the ground or some threat of something and that became almost my normal and I and I I knew it was wrong, but I was so beaten down and that I

• 1:31:46Speaker 01

  I didn't know how to leave.

• 1:31:47Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:48Speaker 01

  I really did not know how to leave.

• 1:31:49Bunnie XO?

  You're almost not in your right mind in those situations. It's a chemical.

• 1:31:52Speaker 01

  Survival, you know, because he's such a big guy. I've never laid a hand on him. I my God, I would not be here right now.

• 1:32:00Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, you're tiny. I couldn't even imagine you laying a hand on anyone.

• 1:32:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's a a big guy and very um intimidating and you know, he had he has guns and stuff and would threaten me with that too. And so I was fucking scared um to to leave and um.

• 1:32:20Bunnie XO?

  So he ended up filing though?

• 1:32:22Speaker 01

  He filed um.

• 1:32:23Bunnie XO?

  Did he file because you moved out of the house or?

• 1:32:25Speaker 01

  No, he moved in. I rented like ended up being three townhouses altogether. I first moved out with my daughters and he because I it got so bad. His family knew what he was doing to me too.

• 1:32:35Bunnie XO?

  And nobody stopped it?

• 1:32:37Speaker 01

  They didn't stop it.

• 1:32:38Bunnie XO?

  That's learned behavior too, probably.

• 1:32:40Speaker 01

  Completely, it is. And so I moved in with the girl. I moved the girls. And I had so much like all this usually would happen at his office um or uh when we would travel, it got back where I'm like, I can't have you with me, you know? Um, and for someone who accused me of cheating, it was him and which is whatever, but um you know, so then I so I stayed in a townhouse with the girls and then I rented another one that I could use as like my office when I was like trying like, what are we gonna do about this house? I packed up all my stuff and need but I didn't want to just they were destroying it and whatever. And so

• 1:33:23Speaker 01

  I kept hearing they're leaving next month, next month, next month. Well, they still haven't left. They're still here and I was having to pay the rent there. Plus his office, plus the townhouses, plus everyone's pay. It was just out of control and so um you know, so I hid that and so um I had my breasts, I had to have them redone and I had surgery and then like three weeks later, I had my facelift. After I had the surgery on my breasts, he uh the that night, he was taking care of me at the Four Seasons and I was I had a seven and a half hour surgery because it was a rupture. It was a whole thing and

• 1:34:02Speaker 01

  he ended up hitting me while I'm on the toilet and it got to the point though where he would and I'm like crying and I'm like, I just got out of surgery. I was like this. It was awful and

• 1:34:12Bunnie XO?

  He's a disgusting human.

• 1:34:14Speaker 01

  When that's when that moment like I knew for I was trying to convince myself, once his family leaves, he'll be back too. Because I felt like they were but they had never he had no intentions of them ever leaving. I thought he did. And but when he did that to me, being that vulnerable, I knew this is he's gonna kill me.

• 1:34:38Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:38Speaker 01

  You know, and so.

• 1:34:40Bunnie XO?

  He hates you and he hates himself and when men are like that, there's no

• 1:34:46Speaker 01

  There's no

• 1:34:46Bunnie XO?

  I call it shark eyes when they get like that. It's almost like their eyes go black.

• 1:34:49Speaker 01

  They did. His did.

• 1:34:51Bunnie XO?

  And they become like a different human and that's the scariest thing that you can ever experience as a woman is watching a man have zero emotion or soul behind his eyes and them putting their hands on you and to do that to you after surgery.

• 1:35:04Speaker 01

  Surgery.

• 1:35:04Bunnie XO?

  Like, it's terrible that he was doing it to you anyways, but especially after surgery too.

• 1:35:08Speaker 01

  Oh, it's so vulnerable.

• 1:35:09Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, like that's insane.

• 1:35:11Speaker 01

  It was insane. And that's again, people are like, why didn't you call and do what? I'm sitting there like I can't even pick a phone up. I couldn't even go to the bathroom by myself. And then I had my facelift three weeks later and I told him I'm it was so bad. I'm like, we've got a I can't do this anymore. Um, he had found text messages and like a few months prior of me and a guy that I did a show with and I had never seen this guy again. And they were inappropriate texts that I sent and I own that. I never saw him though in person and I he even saw the text of me saying I can't cross this line and see you. I obviously things are not good in my marriage and Erin saw those

• 1:35:52Speaker 01

  or the person I'm divorcing and asked me and he said, did I lose you? Do you want um I I and I I said, I cannot stay married like this. This is I can't do it. I didn't want to get divorced and go through what I'm going through right now.

• 1:36:08Bunnie XO?

  Well, I mean, you also went through one of the most public friggin

• 1:36:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:12Bunnie XO?

  divorces. So you probably were scared to death. What was gonna happen when the news hit?

• 1:36:17Speaker 01

  Although I did not think this would go down the way it did, but I I said, this is what needs to happen for us to stay married. You need to go to anger management. You need to stop all your substance abuse and you need to get your family out of here because I cannot support everyone. This is insane.

• 1:36:32Bunnie XO?

  So when did you find out about the substance abuse?

• 1:36:35Speaker 01

  Um, well, I found out, found out shit after we split.

• 1:36:38Bunnie XO?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:36:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, you would have thought I would have known more, but um there are some other things that I had known ish. Uh, but I'm like, whatever you're doing, you need to stop.

• 1:36:50Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:51Speaker 01

  You know, um, but then he got worse after that and that's when and then I had my surgeries and then I told him, I said, I I think I need to reschedule my facelift. Like I was like, I I've never this is a major thing. I cannot have anything. And he said, no matter what happens with us, I promise you, I'm gonna take care of you and work get you through this and it was horrendous. Thank God. Doctor Ben had me go to a place because at least I had nurses and yeah, and I stayed there for a week and he was trying to put on, you know, his whatever and I get home. And then it was 10 days later, Fourth of July weekend, he was just so volatile and he even had his dad come over who had never been there.

• 1:37:35Speaker 01

  Showed pictures of me with this guy and I a text messages that you keep bringing up the same ones like and you're showing your dad and they were threatening me and it was just so awful.

• 1:37:46Bunnie XO?

  He's trying to create

• 1:37:47Speaker 01

  For months he was. I didn't even know it.

• 1:37:49Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, but meanwhile, he's having an affair.

• 1:37:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:52Bunnie XO?

  With the plant lady.

• 1:37:53Speaker 01

  People.

• 1:37:53Bunnie XO?

  Oh.

• 1:37:54Speaker 01

  And then um that was she was earlier, but there were several and then he was.

• 1:37:58Bunnie XO?

  It's always it's always it's okay when they do it, but when we if you do it, it's a whole thing.

• 1:38:03Speaker 01

  And I and I did.

• 1:38:04Bunnie XO?

  But you didn't even do anything.

• 1:38:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, the I should not have texted another man and I I knew that our marriage is over, just the fact I even did that because I've never cheated. I've never I'm very loyal and you know I I couldn't and um but I knew it was over when I did that, but I was trying to convince myself things will change. Well, he was trying to convince me and they just didn't. It went from bad to worse. But um and that weekend, while I'm 10 days after my facelift Fourth Fourth of July weekend, I told his mom, I text her, I'm like, you've got to get your husband and your son out of here. I cannot do this. If not, I'm gonna file a restraining order. This is so abusive. I am trying to heal from two surgeries. So eventually they left and then

• 1:38:49Speaker 01

  bad weekend and then Erin, um, the person I'm divorcing uh filed that online that weekend and doesn't tell me and it's texting me like on a Monday like nothing and I couldn't even I didn't even want to see him or anything and my daughter Sammy called me and she's like, are you okay? Because I stayed the night at her house on a Saturday night because I just was so scared to stay there. Um, I was afraid he was gonna do something and so I stayed at her place. And even at that, I still didn't tell her everything. Um, but she's like, well, that motherfucker filed for divorce. I was like, what? Oh, why? Like the worst thing you could have done while I'm healing from a facelift?

• 1:39:29Bunnie XO?

  Because they just always wanted to kiss the night.

• 1:39:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I talked to him uh. I uh, he called actually and I said, you filed for divorce. Well, yeah, you told my mom you were gonna file. I said, I didn't mean Monday.

• 1:39:45Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:46Speaker 01

  I said, I didn't say I was gonna file. I said, we have to get divorced. This is just crazy with your family and the abuse and everything else. I can't do this. And

• 1:39:55Bunnie XO?

  He's just trying to beat you to the punch.

• 1:39:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I said, uh, you don't realize the circus you just created. And now with a facelift with my head fucking wrapped, I have to go find an attorney and deal with this. And he said, uh, he was just, you don't need an attorney. I'm like, you want over a hundred grand a fuck a month? What do you mean? I don't need an attorney.

• 1:40:14Bunnie XO?

  Is that what he filed in the divorce papers? Wow.

• 1:40:16Speaker 01

  Mister, oh, I don't want your money.

• 1:40:18Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:18Speaker 01

  I said, you could go fuck yourself. And that was the last time I spoke to him. And then he, same thing, please take me back, texting, everything. I never talked to him again, to this day.

• 1:40:27Bunnie XO?

  But you don't need to talk to him. He doesn't deserve any.

• 1:40:30Speaker 01

  No, it's actually, I'm terrified of him. And then I, and I was so scared to file the restraining order. Shitballs. I was terrified because I, I just, he's dangerous and

• 1:40:47Speaker 01

  he doesn't have anything to lose, you know? And same with his family. I was so scared.

• 1:40:51Bunnie XO?

  Does he still reach out to you and try to?

• 1:40:53Speaker 01

  No, he can't.

• 1:40:54Bunnie XO?

  No, he can't.

• 1:40:55Speaker 01

  Um, but it's been hell. I'll tell you that. And, but the worst part is the betrayal of

• 1:41:05Speaker 01

  for him, like right away, you know, sell pictures of me to Daily Mail and put all these stories out there, all these lies about me and trying to destroy me, you know? Even when I filed the restraining order, I just wanted to protect my safety. I didn't put shit in there about him that just to be mean. Um, and that's the thing that was, while I was at my most vulnerable to try to ruin me.

• 1:41:29Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 1:41:29Speaker 01

  Just to, after everything I've worked for my whole life to, you know, just be so brutal. And everything that I've discovered just in the last year, like people come out of the woodwork.

• 1:41:41Bunnie XO?

  Oh.

• 1:41:42Speaker 01

  His friends, these people telling me, I was like, how could I have been so naive and, you know, finding out that I was paying the salary of at least one that I know in particular. And the other one I, uh, was earlier, but an employee that he was having an affair with and our severance and all this stuff. It's just

• 1:42:04Bunnie XO?

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:42:04Speaker 01

  And he right away moved in with the woman, um, as soon as we separated, had her testify against me. She didn't know me, didn't see anything about me. And it was just, it was brutal. It's been brutal. I can't, he won't sign divorce papers. He's trying to come after me for spousal and, and I get it. I know that in normal marriages, whoever makes more money, you know, that's, you pay, that is what it is.

• 1:42:28Bunnie XO?

  And you guys didn't sign a prenup?

• 1:42:30Speaker 01

  No, that was, that was, um, mistake number 50 I made in this marriage.

• 1:42:34Bunnie XO?

  Girl, you're just a lover girl. You're just a girl. It's okay.

• 1:42:38Speaker 01

  I'm so stupid, you know? Well, it ain't happening again. Yeah, no, I was a dumb fuck. I didn't do a prenup.

• 1:42:44Bunnie XO?

  But I do wanna say that I am so proud of you for speaking up because if anybody looks at your track record, you have not spoke up ever. So for you to finally speak up and say your truth is amazing and I'm so proud of you.

• 1:42:59Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:42:59Bunnie XO?

  Because, like I said, your track record shows that you literally have eaten shit and protected everybody. And now you're finally saying, no, I'm choosing me. I'm gonna tell the truth about this man. So he can't hurt another woman the way that he hurt me. And also you're, for yourself, just to even be able to get that off your chest and be able to say, look, this is my truth. Take it or leave it is, it just speaks volumes. So I am proud of you.

• 1:43:22Speaker 01

  Thank you. I, I also wanna, you know, because this has been going on for a year and I feel it's been hell. Like every turn I've discovered something new or something else is filed and, you know, we have no custody to deal with. We don't have a home to sell. He's taken everything of mine.

• 1:43:40Bunnie XO?

  Not gonna let you go.

• 1:43:41Speaker 01

  And he's not gonna, he won't let it go. And so, and that's the part that's brutal. But I also, you know, I wanna if I could even help one woman in my situation, if it could happen to me, who, I'm the one that was the breadwinner. I'm, you know, and it, it's a slow burn. It was a slow burn and it's terrifying. Um, you know, this happens so much and many women don't make it out alive. And, and I think if I wasn't in the public, I, I wouldn't be here right now. Or if I did call the police on him, I would not be here. Um, I really believe that. And

• 1:44:22Speaker 01

  but to be put through hell with this, you know, I had to go through a five day trial to get, I have a permanent restraining order. So after you file it, then you have a trial and see if you wanna extend it. And I got the most you can get. And it's not just because, it's not because who I am. I had to go through this trial and he kept doing interviews and putting lies out there, hoping I would break. And I almost did to pull it because I didn't know I would have to, it would be public where the media could be in there and I would have to sit there and it was the hardest thing I think I've ever had to do. But I did it. And it was over a few months. It would be like three days, then I'd wait, have to wait a month and go again and again. It was so devastating to also testify against this person

• 1:45:06Speaker 01

  who I had thought I was building life with, who I loved. And in a second, he showed no remorse, no love at all. Like to turn on me the way he did publicly and do all that shit about me. It was such a that was more devastating, the betrayal that he had towards me than any, than hitting me. It was the, that was the worst. And, you know, early on, I also tried to have, you know, private judge, a lot of celebrities have private judges, just to keep things private. It's not necessarily you're hiding anything, but who the hell wants?

• 1:45:40Bunnie XO?

  Saving yourself.

• 1:45:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. And also I'm a single mom and I don't want, I've, my youngest daughter, it's like I'm, I need to protect myself too. And and so he would not have a private judge in the beginning. He said that I would have to sign a one-sided NDA and have to pay him $250,000 per breach. And so I was like, all right. And I was actually at the time, he didn't know his cousin was testifying against him. And I was trying to also protect that side of things. I didn't wanna destroy the person, but I wanted to protect myself. And so he, he wanted it public. He wanted well, it was an opportunity for him to, to talk to the media the way he did after each time he would go in there.

• 1:46:22Speaker 01

  And, but it was hard. It's hard. It's still hard. He won't stop. And then we had to go to court for spousal and I was quite shocked that the, um, this is a different judge that she awarded him temporary spousal and legal bills. I was he has felony charges against him for domestic violence regarding me and um, a permanent restraining order. And I was so surprised by, and shocked actually, that I would have to pay him after all of this and that, um, you know, cause I think it sets a bad precedent for other victims afraid to leave because what if they can't afford it?

• 1:47:03Speaker 01

  And then this case could be an example for other cases coming. Well, she had to pay, you know, and I, I was really you know, I respect the court, but I was very disappointed in the decision that I went five days with this trial, all this stuff. And then in you know, a very short time, I don't even think it was an hour to make that decision. And now what I've been going through with it, and I understand like if it was other circumstances, I would have say, okay, that's the law. I have to do this and pay spousal. I get it. But under these circumstances, I don't understand. And what I'm being put through to have to defend myself is been brutal. Cause we're not done. He won't stop.

• 1:47:45Bunnie XO?

  God, Denise, my heart breaks for you. It's like, how did, how are you supposed to love after this or try to even look for love after this? You know, it's like

• 1:47:53Speaker 01

  I don't know. This one's a doozy. I'll tell you, cause I, like I said, I've always said, never say never. I will never get married again, ever. I can't do the divorce. The divorce sucks.

• 1:48:01Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, I can't do it. I will never.

• 1:48:03Speaker 01

  It'll kill me, I think. I just can't. I can't. Um, I would have a partner.

• 1:48:07Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:08Speaker 01

  And you know, it's

• 1:48:08Bunnie XO?

  I think like Kurt Russell and Goldie Hawn figured it out.

• 1:48:11Speaker 01

  That today. Yeah. I think I would do that. Um, but you know, I haven't been with anyone. I haven't dated. And it's been a year, which is a long time. Like I envy you. I wish I could be more like you. I mean, I haven't been with anyone. I, this has hurt me so much that and because I really loved him. I thought I was building a life with him. And it's just, you know, I have to heal, just I feel like I can compartmentalize and I am not one that's woe is me, wallow. But with this, I've discovered things, um,

• 1:48:43Speaker 01

  In the year that's almost been worse than during the marriage.

• 1:48:46Bunnie XO?

  Well, betrayal is when I when I had gone through a situation with an affair, I think uh it's not the act that hurts you, it's the lies.

• 1:48:57Speaker 01

  It's the lies.

• 1:48:58Bunnie XO?

  And you are just, it's like whiplash and the people who are involved in it and the people, you know, like you feel so it's slimy.

• 1:49:05Speaker 01

  It's very slimy.

• 1:49:06Bunnie XO?

  And there's no way to feel good about that betrayal trauma is literally like it rewires your brain to not trust people to just feel disgusting because you're the last to know. And it's like, nobody wants to ever be the fucking last to know. And when you are, it's just, it's a different kind of hurt.

• 1:49:24Speaker 01

  And also, I think this was, he didn't love me. There's no way. And so it feels like this was all, when you asked if I feel con, a hundred percent. And how I could have not seen it is what's hard. But my closest friends and people in my life are like, he had us fooled too. But that's the part that's the hardest, actually of anything, everything is my daughter Eloise, because she loved him. And for him to completely disappear from her life the way he has, in the beginning, I would have, you know, if set up visitation

• 1:50:04Speaker 01

  with through my dad or something, but he just did not care about her. And that's what's the most hurtful thing. He says stuff public, the only time he mentions her is publicly to try to get sympathy. He never tried to adopt her. Once I think he knew I would marry him without a prenup, that was like off the table. And, you know, his family started to go fund me page to try to get money from the public and say, our poor granddaughter, no one has even tried to see her. And that is what's more than anything is so hurtful that he completely, completely disappeared from her life. And.

• 1:50:41Bunnie XO?

  It's like a whole family of scam artists.

• 1:50:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, they are. Exactly. I mean, it's so deep and there's so much there and so much shit that it's like, it's a lot, but it's a.

• 1:50:53Bunnie XO?

  Well, you didn't deserve any of it.

• 1:50:55Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:50:55Bunnie XO?

  You didn't, because you didn't, you went into it with a genuine heart and good intentions. And like, you just wanted to be loved. And, you know, this guy took full advantage of a woman who's been through some shit and has a tattered heart. And, you know, maybe in the beginning, he did love you. I don't know him, but then like, you know, people change as years go on. And it's just, it's disgusting.

• 1:51:16Speaker 01

  I think I was, I, he didn't love me. He really, you know, set out to prey on, he knew what he was doing.

• 1:51:23Bunnie XO?

  That's so disgusting.

• 1:51:24Speaker 01

  Especially, you know, finding so much stuff out. And it is what it is, but it's, I just want it over, you know?

• 1:51:31Bunnie XO?

  Yeah. How does it end? Well, how can we get it?

• 1:51:34Speaker 01

  I don't fucking know. I know we have some court dates coming up. I don't know. It's like.

• 1:51:38Bunnie XO?

  He's just gonna keep, it's like, you're gonna pay so much money in fucking lawyers fees, more than what you're gonna, he's gonna end up getting in the end, you know? It's like, just fucking.

• 1:51:47Speaker 01

  I don't understand, because he was ordered also to return a laptop of mine that he took. And I don't, it's not the laptop so much, it's the information that's on there. Ordered to return my late mom's things, refuses. I don't know. And that's like, oh, come on, you won't even give me my mom's things?

• 1:52:02Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, like, that's disgusting.

• 1:52:03Speaker 01

  It's disgusting. And so I just have to hopefully, you know, whenever it'll be over soon. But, but I, going through it though, I'm like, okay, there's obviously a reason, even though it's so painful.

• 1:52:15Bunnie XO?

  I always say there's a blessing and a lesson.

• 1:52:17Speaker 01

  Right. So I'm trying to find that. But I, so that's where I think, okay, if I

• 1:52:23Speaker 01

  can, I want to be able to do what I can to help other victims. And then also, you know, there's some holes in our system too, that I think need to be fixed as well. Not that I have the power to do that, but at least, you know, try to start raising awareness about it.

• 1:52:38Bunnie XO?

  Exactly. I was gonna say, people can use your case as an example, you know, and that, that's the first step towards change and being able to change things is people seeing it actually play out in real life. And then being able to be like, oh, you know what? That's not right. We need to look into this and fix it. So.

• 1:52:53Speaker 01

  And there's so many things, I mean, you know, with your divorce too, that people have an opinion or they think.

• 1:53:00Bunnie XO?

  They know everything.

• 1:53:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. Or, or he's put stuff out there and, um.

• 1:53:04Bunnie XO?

  There's, there's nobody know, the only people who know what's going on inside of a divorce or a relationship, no matter how public they are, is the two people that are in it.

• 1:53:12Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:53:13Bunnie XO?

  All these other narratives that are created are not real and people need to stop believing headlines. It's just not what it is, you know? And I think, uh, people have been conditioned so much to like, read the newspaper and you know what's going on. But nowadays, these headlines come from like TikTok or like, you know, like, it's not the journalism that it used to be.

• 1:53:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:53:33Bunnie XO?

  People need to know that there's two people that are involved in this situation and that there's always two sides to every story.

• 1:53:39Speaker 01

  I was really genuinely so touched that how much support I do have, because I was scared to file that, the restraining order and then go through the trial and then have him put stuff out there. And it, it is, um, it's nice to, I'm so grateful for fans and people that have really been really, truly, genuinely supportive. And I'm so thankful.

• 1:54:04Bunnie XO?

  Well, your track record shows the, the woman that you are. And I think people know that you're not just gonna file a restraining order on somebody unless there's a reason. And, you know, I, I'm thankful that people were able to see past all the bullshit and the lies that he was putting out and actually see you for the person you are.

• 1:54:19Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:54:20Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, absolutely. Where are we going on vacation, Denise?

• 1:54:23Speaker 01

  X Y is close. The other thing. Yeah, we need to go somewhere.

• 1:54:26Bunnie XO?

  Where are we going? We both need a break. Let's do it.

• 1:54:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you're single now too.

• 1:54:30Bunnie XO?

  I am, baby.

• 1:54:31Speaker 01

  So we need to do a single girls trip.

• 1:54:33Bunnie XO?

  Let's do it. I'm so down. We'll have so much fun. And all I want to do is travel. That's all I want to do.

• 1:54:38Speaker 01

  I love traveling.

• 1:54:39Bunnie XO?

  Now that, and now that I'm here in LA, we gotta go out to dinner and hang out and stuff like that, too.

• 1:54:43Speaker 01

  I know, me too. I, it's been a long time coming. I've been trying to get to LA for a while. And so now it's finally happening. And we close on our house next week and. Congratulations.

• 1:54:52Bunnie XO?

  I'm just excited. So we'll, we'll be here. But, um, do, do you think that you have forgiven everyone besides the person that you were married to? Do you think that you've forgiven everyone in your life that has caused you any sort of hurt and pain? And where does Denise go from here?

• 1:55:12Speaker 01

  Um, it caused me, yeah, I mean, I, yeah, the, I, I feel too, like in relationships, like even with Charlie, I feel that was our journey. I am so grateful for him because I wouldn't have our daughters, you know? So I don't think of, um, it is, it is what it is. And I'm so grateful that we're able to be in a place that we're in. And of course, I forgive the hurt there, you know?

• 1:55:39Bunnie XO?

  Well, even with the media and stuff like that, you know, I mean, like, they were not kind to you. And that's got, you know, that's, that was a big part of your life. And I mean, look how traumatized you were to even file for divorce this time, even though you were in the most abusive relationship ever.

• 1:55:53Speaker 01

  And he actually filed. I wanted to work things out on the side or, but then when I had to do the restraining order, there was no, done that nicely. So, you know, it's, it's really hard. I, I am a very forgiving person and, um, I, that person I would, I, I'm friends with all my exes too. That will never, ever, ever happen. But I, um, I'm not, you know, I do want to find love again. I want to meet someone. I want to have fun. So I don't feel bitter at all.

• 1:56:24Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:24Speaker 01

  But I'm just gonna be a little cautious about who I meet. And, you know, I think this was an extreme person case.

• 1:56:32Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:32Speaker 01

  Uh, but, and obviously I had to go through it for whatever reason, you know, as painful as it is. But I think I just have to keep the hat, the glass, the glass is always half full and stay that way and not become bitter or, you know, um, change who I am in a negative way. And so I, I feel like I'm back to myself before I married him, but only wiser. And, you know, um, but I like to have fun and I wanna, I would like to have like a girl's vacation.

• 1:57:02Bunnie XO?

  Let's do it. I love that you said that you're friends with all of your exes because that's such an Aquarius trait. I'm an Aquarius myself.

• 1:57:08Speaker 01

  You're Aquarius?

• 1:57:08Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, I'm January 22nd, and you're February 17th. Yeah. So when you said that, I was like, you know, that has to be an Aquarius thing because I'm friends with all of my exes too, except for the one of them that was abusive. And it's like, it's impossible to be friends with him because he just can't be normal. Yeah, exactly.

• 1:57:23Speaker 01

  That's so funny. I did not know you're Aquarius. Okay. So you have your head in the clouds too.

• 1:57:27Bunnie XO?

  Oh, listen, I'm a lover girl at heart too, baby. So I get it. I understand you so much. Denise, thank you so much for coming here today. And I hope this is not the last of our conversations.

• 1:57:37Speaker 01

  It's not. We're gonna go on vacation.

• 1:57:39Bunnie XO?

  I'm gonna hold you to it.

• 1:57:40Speaker 01

  I will go.

• 1:57:41Bunnie XO?

  All right. We're, we're putting that on the calendar, guys. We're going on vacation.

• 1:57:44Speaker 01

  We have to think somewhere fun where we can go.

• 1:57:46Bunnie XO?

  Um, thank you, Denise. This interview I have been wanting to do with you for so long. And I just got to sit across from you and feel your energy. And you're just the most beautiful human. And please do not, I know you won't because life has not torn you down, but please don't let anything tear you down because you're just such a beautiful soul.

• 1:58:02Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:58:03Bunnie XO?

  I appreciate you.

• 1:58:04Speaker 01

  Next time I'm gonna interview you.

• 1:58:06Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, let's do it. I'll be your first guest on podcast. Do it. I'll do it. Thank you guys for tuning in to another episode of Dumb Blonde. I'll see you guys next week. Bye.