I have some questions for Mark Zuckerberg

It’s a big week for Meta. The company has its big Connect conference, and the new Muse AI agent appears to be an early hit. CEO Mark Zuckerberg has been doing a lot of interviews about it all — so of course we asked for him to be on Decoder. Meta declined, for whatever reason. But luckily Mark just did a big interview with our friend and former colleague Alex Heath on the Sources podcast. So I figured we could highlight some moments from that conversation to point out some obvious gaps in what Mark is saying about Meta and hopefully inspire the next set of people who talk to him with some follow-up questions. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links: Mark Zuckerberg interview | Sources Podcast How Meta got everything it wanted in secret data center deal | New York Times Can you forget how you feel about Meta? | The Verge Zuck doesn’t want to press pause on AI | The Verge Meta glasses are a workplace menace | The Verge Mark Zuckerberg doesn’t understand how to live | The Verge Four takeaways from Mark Zuckerberg’s massive AI manifesto | The Verge Meta says US states are seeking $1.4 trillion in penalties | Reuters Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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  Hi, I'm Neelai Patel, editor-in-chief of The Virgin. This is Decoder, my show about big ideas and other problems. It's a big week for Meta. The company has its big Connect conference, and the new Muse AI agent appears to be an early hit. I've been using it, and it's surprisingly good. CEO Mark Zuckerberg has obviously been out there taking a victory lap, doing a lot of interviews about all this, so of course, we asked for him to appear on Decoder. Meta declined my interview request for whatever reason, but luckily, Mark just did a big interview with our friend and former colleague Alex Heath on the Sources podcast. So I figure we could just highlight some moments from that conversation, and I could point out some obvious gaps in what Mark is saying about the company right now. And hopefully, the next set of people who get to talk to him can ask him some follow-up questions.

• 2:46Speaker 02

  So here's some of the things I would love to ask Mark Zuckerberg if he would join me here on Decoder. One thing before we get going, don't forget to subscribe to @DecoderPod on YouTube for new episodes every Monday and Thursday. Let's start with Mark's comments on Meta glasses.

• 2:58Speaker 03

  So we actually feel quite good about the product. I think it, I mean, phones don't have a light. I mean, people go around, like, recording people all the time.

• 3:05Speaker 02

  So I think it's very important to note that the entire tech industry really wants passive surveillance devices to fit into the same category as phones, for you to understand everything from flock cameras to Ring doorbells to Meta glasses, the same way that you might understand a smartphone. Now, there are some very obvious differences here that I think are worth really pushing on in these conversations. For example, if you want to record someone with your phone, you have to take it out of your pocket, open the camera app, and literally hold it in their face. This is a physical action that is meaningfully different than having a pair of glasses on your face with a light and just passively recording someone. That physical action means that you have to announce your intent to do something with your body, and other people can react to it. Obviously, don't do that with Meta glasses.

• 3:49Speaker 02

  You just start recording, and people can notice that there's a light or not, but the big, physical announcement that you're about to begin recording is not present. So I think one of the reasons the entire tech industry is so eager to fit these passive surveillance devices into the same kind of mental framework of smartphones is so that no one has to question whether there should be a new social etiquette for these devices. And instead, you're like, oh, it's just a smartphone. I already understand how to use that. But importantly, that also brushes over the fact that we did have to create a massive new set of social rules and norms around smartphone recording. We did live through the entire Black Lives Matter movement because smartphone recording allowed people to record the police, and we, as a society, didn't quite know what to do with that information, and maybe still don't know what to do with that information.

• 4:34Speaker 02

  I would just push on this over and over and over again. Do you want there to be constant recordings of everyone? Do we think that smartphones allowing everyone to record everything all the time was good? Do we think being able to livestream everything all the time was good? If you could reboot that in a new form factor that allowed for easier and more passive recording, what norms would you change? And there's already examples of this inside of Meta, where they know the Meta glasses are being used to harass retail workers and women, and they have started down-ranking those videos on Instagram to provide less incentive to make them. So I think a version of this question you could ask very directly is, if you know some of the content that is being made with these glasses is so bad that you've down-ranked it on your own distribution platform, what is so good about these glasses that make it

• 5:18Speaker 02

  worth having these debates over and over again? All right, let's get back to Mark's comments on Meta glasses.

• 5:23Speaker 03

  When we launched the glasses a few years back, we communicated pretty clearly about the steps that we put into it, but, like you said, there's now, like, many, many, many millions of people who have gotten the glasses more than, you know, had them when we just started launching the product. So I think some of that communication that we did at the beginning, a lot of people either, you know, maybe they forgot about, or, you know, they didn't see at the beginning, or they just weren't paying attention to it because the glasses weren't a big thing. And now that I think we've achieved a level of mainstream, well, at a minimum, I think we need to kind of go and make sure that we communicate about what we're doing, and that, yes, we think that this is important, and in fact, so important that we designed

• 6:05Speaker 03

  it into the product from the very first version that we shipped multiple years ago.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  So I would ask a very simple question here. What is important? Is it the privacy of the user? Is it the privacy of the person who might be being recorded? And what is it that you thought you were communicating clearly at the beginning that got lost? What I think Mark is trying to say is, at the very beginning, they announced that the glasses would have a light, that the light would be on when you're recording, that they thought it was obvious, that there was a camera in the temple, and over time, as more people got the glasses and more people experienced the glasses on other people's faces, it was not clear what that light was or what it meant. And so now Meta, Mark thinks they have to do more communication about specifically the light existing. And my response to all of that is, it doesn't matter what Meta says.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  This is the essential truth of every piece of mainstream consumer technology. The users define the product. If you sell millions of gadgets to people, they will use them in ways you never expected. And it's those emergent behaviors that often define the next version of the product. Probably one of the most famous examples of this is Twitter. Twitter didn't invent the hashtag or the @reply or any of the million features that we associate with Twitter. Users on Twitter invented those features, and Twitter adopted them because the users had figured out a way to use their service in ways that they had never even contemplated. This is broadly true of everything. It's true of computers, it's true of smartphones, it's true of social platforms, and it is true of Meta glasses. The ways people are using them have nothing to do with Meta's intentions or its communication

• 7:37Speaker 02

  about recording lights at the beginning or now. So I think the natural follow-up question we should all be asking is, how much control does Meta have over bad actors who are using these glasses to harass people? Because just telling more people that the light indicates recording isn't going to stop it. Are they going to do more things, like down-ranking videos of people harassing retail workers? And do they think the other platforms will follow their lead? And does Meta think that creating negative incentives for how people use a camera with content moderation will actually solve the problem? Is there anything about the history of content moderation that suggests that that's true, given Mark's own history with content moderation?

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• 11:15Speaker 02

  Next up, Mark talks about teen safety and Meta's recent multi-billion dollar state settlement.

• 11:19Speaker 03

  I think it would have been possible to have kind of explained along the way how seriously we took those issues. And we just didn't because we thought, okay, well, people are showing that by using the product so much, they like are, they still like the product.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  Okay, let me stop you here. The claim in many of the social media lawsuits is that the product is addictive. The reason people keep comparing social media to big tobacco is that smoking is fun and people enjoyed it and it was killing them. And so the usage rates had nothing to do with the harm that might have been occurring. So from the jump here, I would have wanted to push on whether simply measuring usage rates actually lets you measure whether or not something is doing good for the world or good for an individual user.

• 12:04Speaker 03

  Where we've gotten with, with, with the social media products, which is both people liking it and understanding how seriously we take all of those issues. So that's what I aspire to.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  Is there a through line from that to the recent settlement on all the youth safety stuff? And it's a thing a lot of people are talking about. Is there any connection from what you just said to that? And like, I would just be curious to hear you reflect on that and like what you've learned from this process? Or if...

• 12:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, I think it's, it's another good example like this. I mean, we've taken a lot of those safety issues seriously for a while and we've been working on this teen account work with, with Instagram for, for a long time. And I think have done some leading work there.

• 12:43Speaker 02

  So it is true that Meta has done some of the leading work on designing features that would keep kids safer on its platforms. They've done some of the leading research in the space and what is actually happening to people on their platforms. And one of the dynamics that is particularly galling throughout all of this is that Meta gets punished for it. So they publish their safety numbers, they publish their research, they publish the amount of bad things that are happening, they do transparency reports. And even if you don't think that that's enough, a real thing that continually happens to Meta is they get punished for revealing that bad things happen on their platforms. And companies like Apple, which don't know what bad things are happening on an encrypted service like iCloud, don't publish those numbers and don't get punished for it. What I would have asked Mark here is how do you solve that dynamic specifically?

• 13:24Speaker 02

  Because in these lawsuits, it's been revealed in internal emails that Mark himself has questioned the value of doing the research and building the features because Meta gets punished for it. So there's a really strong negative feedback loop here where Meta tries hard and gets punished for it because they're transparent about it, but in fact, you would want a government regulator to solve. If all the social media companies were required to be transparent about various metrics around teen safety, then Meta would be judged in comparison to its peers, not for the information existing at all. And that doesn't appear in this settlement. Instead, what we have is a bunch of behavior controls, product restrictions, and Meta seems very keen on making sure those product restrictions connect to TikTok and YouTube, but not on whether we should be able to measure the harms themselves.

• 14:09Speaker 02

  So that's the first thing that I think is worth pushing on. Does this whole industry need to be required to be more transparent about the things happening to children on their platforms? Because if we're going to make rules and regulations, you should probably start from a common set of information.

• 14:23Speaker 03

  Now, if you basically said, you know, limit usage to an hour a day for teens, you know, everyone I think would be okay with that, except if like you have to unilaterally do it, then you're saying, okay, like if, if people don't use Instagram for more than an hour a day, but then their usage goes to TikTok, have we really like helped anyone? And if we, and we've just like hurt ourselves to not help anyone?

• 14:45Speaker 02

  Well, Mark is describing here is a prisoner's dilemma, where if they take action to make teens safer and TikTok doesn't, the teens will just go use TikTok and no one will be safe. This idea, of course, is going to come up again when we talk about AI safety, but let's just talk about social platforms for one minute. If you believe that there's a market for safety, right? If your initial premise was people are using the platform, so they must be happy with it, well, then you should make the platform safer for kids. And parents might say to their children, you're allowed to use Instagram and not TikTok because Instagram has these controls. It is very telling to me that Mark doesn't think there's a market for safety, that instead he thinks that everyone must be forced to unilaterally disarm by the government in a regulatory framework that solves his prisoner's dilemma.

• 15:29Speaker 02

  So my big question here is why is this a problem for the government to solve in social media in a way that might implicate the First Amendment and the speech rights of teenagers and not a problem for the government to solve in AI safety where the frontier labs keep talking about killing everyone? By the way, when I say this connects directly to AI safety, what I mean is that Mark is arguing the opposite side of the prisoner's dilemma when it comes to AI safety. After all the calls for slowdowns from the various frontier labs, Mark posted to Threads and X that he thought the market would take care of it. Here, I'll just read it to you. "My view is that trust and alignment are quickly becoming the most important capabilities that will differentiate agents and models. Any lab that doesn't focus on alignment will fall behind. Labs face significant liability if their models cause harm, so they have a strong

• 16:14Speaker 02

  incentive to prevent this as well. Meta delayed shipping muse for several months to focus on safety and security. We didn't call for everyone else to do this before we would. We just did it as part of our day-to-day work because it's clearly the right thing for people and for us. I'm proud of the security foundations we've built." So straightforwardly, I think the question is, why is the go-it-alone approach appropriate when it comes to AI safety, but getting the government to pull the other social media companies into a framework for teen safety, appropriate in that market? The other question, I'm just going to steal from my friend Casey Newton, who pointed out that in the most recent teen safety case, Meta estimated its own liability at a trillion dollars in damages, which does not appear to be enough liability for Meta to take unilateral action to prevent teens from being harmed on its platforms.

• 16:59Speaker 02

  If a trillion dollars in potential liability isn't enough, how much is enough for Meta to take AI safety seriously? And is there any number in a liability scheme that would stop everyone all at once?

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• 20:17Speaker 02

  Mark then got into how he plans to run Muse as a business.

• 20:20Speaker 03

  It, I think, is just going to be able to make people money and save people money. The reason for why we're doing this is we basically are confident and standing behind the fact that we think that this is going to, effectively, for people who are going to use it for running a small business, or making money, or transactions, or commerce in some way, we actually just think it's going to make so much money for people that the business model over time that we expect is to effectively just take a very small cut of whatever the transaction is.

• 20:50Speaker 02

  Take great business. Small, yeah.

• 20:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, and not even necessarily the person paying for it.

• 20:54Speaker 02

  If you're a Ben Thompson fan, or you've just listened to enough to Decoder, you know that what Zuck is describing here is aggregation theory. He's going to have all the consumer demand, and it'll be so big and so lucrative that businesses who want customers will pay Meta a small fee to be on the other side of transactions that happen in Muse. Being one of the big aggregators is a very lucrative thing. All the big tech giants aggregate demand in one way or another. The problem is, the businesses on the other side of the aggregators hate them. And Mark knows this better than most, because he's on the other side of one of the biggest aggregators of all: the Apple App Store. If you want to reach customers on iPhones, you have to go through the Apple App Store, and importantly, agree to a bunch of privacy rules, and pay 30% fees on most of the transactions that

• 21:35Speaker 02

  happen on an iPhone. This hits Meta in two ways. One, Apple nearly killed their ad business with something called App Tracking Transparency when they issued a rules change that really favored Apple's ad businesses over Meta's. And two, if you want to boost a post on Instagram from your phone, well, you basically have to pay Apple 30%, a fee that Meta breaks out. Mark hates this so much that he has explicitly talked about building new platforms to get away from Apple for years now. One of the reasons he chased the Metaverse was to build the platform that came after the iPhone and escape Apple. One of the reasons he's chasing Meta glasses is to build the platform that comes after the iPhone and get away from Apple. And I am dead certain, one of the reasons he's invested so heavily into AI, and now Muse, is to build the platform that comes after the iPhone and get away from Apple. So the question I would ask Mark here is very simple. How will you make it

• 22:20Speaker 02

  so all of the businesses downstream of your huge aggregator AI agent feel good about this arrangement? Because when you've been in this arrangement, you have felt very, very bad. Mark also spent some time talking about Meta's data center investments.

• 22:33Speaker 03

  So if you look at the data centers, what we've actually found is that when a company like Meta goes into a community and makes a commitment that we're going to invest there for decades, which is really what we're doing when we're building up a data center, we're able to make it so that it's very good for the community. I mean, the kind of the tax revenue that they bring from that. I mean, in Louisiana, we had this example where the tax revenue funded these $50,000 bonuses for teachers in the community.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  All right, so this data center in Louisiana, Hyperion, Meta's obviously very proud of it. And Mark is talking about the positive impacts it might have for that community. But the actual process of landing that data center deal was basically a bunch of secrecy and backroom deals, and huge asks for property tax exemptions from the state government that residents really didn't know about. There's a huge New York Times piece about this project that really goes into detail about the kinds of backroom negotiations that Meta secured in order to go fast and build this data center. So I would simply ask if companies like Meta should lay out these supposed benefits in a much more public and transparent way, and let people actually decide for themselves.

• 23:38Speaker 03

  Of course. You have to design it in a way that can be helpful to people in all these ways. Which is also part of the reason why, like, for people who are skeptical or have so much doom about the whole thing, I'm, I mean, one of the things that I basically think is that if we don't end up building it in a way that's positive, it just...

• 23:57Speaker 02

  So this is another market argument from Zuck. He's saying if people don't like the AI that's being built, or find it helpful, it simply won't be allowed to exist. The market will kill the products. You can feel a lot of different ways about that, especially if you've experienced AI being force-fed to you in your apps and services right now. But I would connect that to social media, where a lot of people felt that social media was doing harm, and the industry raced ahead anyway until the government acquired some regulations. So I'm, once again, very curious about Mark's different postures to government regulation, market forces, when it comes to social media, where he thinks there should be government regulation, and AI, where he thinks the market should be able to run however it wants. Secondly, and I think most importantly, I've spent a lot of time on the show asking various AI executives if consumer AI products are good enough to overcome doomerism and

• 24:40Speaker 02

  skepticism. Because right now, they're not. And even the way Mark describes Muse is being helpful for people running businesses, or helping people save money, or doing shopping, they're fundamentally enterprise applications. They're not big consumer applications that make people overcome their skepticism. For example, Instagram is a beloved consumer application. It just entertains you. And that means all of the downstream harms of Instagram fade away because people like being entertained. It is not clear to me whether people are going to love letting Muse run their small businesses so much that they will accept data centers in their community. And it's not clear to me what consumer AI products will ever exist, such that people overcome their skepticism of the enormous cost of data center build-outs. And so I would want to know if Mark thinks Muse is

• 25:25Speaker 02

  that great consumer product, or if there's something yet to come. So those are some of the questions I would have asked Mark Zuckerberg if he had agreed to come on Decoder. But there's one more clip, and I do want to give the man props.

• 25:35Speaker 03

  We're also just making it so that you can get a very large amount of usage for free. I think we're offering something, I think, to start. It's like 100 million tokens a week for free, and you get this virtual machine. So it's like a lot of kind of computer.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  That's a good meme. It's a lot of computer.

• 25:51Speaker 03

  It's a lot of computer. Yeah.

• 25:53Speaker 02

  It is a good meme. It's a lot of computer.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  As I mentioned at the top, I've invited Mark to be on Decoder, but he declined the offer. That offer still stands, though, and I would love the chance to talk about all these things directly, rather than through a YouTube reaction video. I'm also dying to know what you think. Anything I got wrong here, anything Alex missed in his questions, or anything else you wish Mark would get asked. Drop your thoughts in the YouTube comments. And if you like this piece and want more of it, please subscribe to the @DecoderPod YouTube channel, and share this episode with a friend. And if you're like me, and you're an audio listener of the show, reminder that you can get ad-free episodes by subscribing to theverge.com.

• 26:26Speaker 03

  So we actually feel quite good about the product. I think it, if, I mean, phones don't have a light.

• 26:31Speaker 02

  God.

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