Dan Tells Dan About Tel Dan

This week, Paul finally gets his day in court — several of them, actually, and he spends nearly all of them in custody. We're going chapter and verse through Acts 23 to 26, where Paul lobs the word "resurrection" into a room full of Pharisees and Sadducees like a rhetorical grenade, forty-plus men swear off food and drink until they can kill him, and one well-timed nephew sets off a midnight cavalry escort to Caesarea. Then it's artifacts and fiction, where Dan tells Dan about the Tel Dan Stele — a ninth-century BCE Aramaic brag-in-stone that gives us our earliest extrabiblical mention of the "House of David," and also names a killer for two kings that neither Kings nor Chronicles agrees with. Support Data Over Dogma and get every episode early and ad-free, plus exclusive bonus content — become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/DataOverDogma Get your Data Over Dogma merch at our online store: https://data-over-dogma-shop.fourthwall.com/ Watch every episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@dataoverdogma Follow us: Instagram — https://www.instagram.com/dataoverdogmapod TikTok — https://www.tiktok.com/@data.over.dogma.pod Threads — https://www.threads.com/@dataoverdogmapod X — https://x.com/data_over_dogma Facebook — https://www.facebook.com/DataOverDogmaPod Get Dan McClellan's New York Times bestselling book, The Bible Says So: https://static.macmillan.com/static/smp/bible-says-so-9781250347466/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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  Lamentably, no.

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• 3:08Speaker 01

  You wonder how they get anything done when all anybody has to do is go resurrection. And then the fistfights break out.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  Hey, everybody. I'm Dan McClellan.

• 3:24Speaker 00

  And I'm Dan Beecher.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  And this is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How are things today, Dan?

• 3:36Speaker 00

  Things are good. We're spoiled for choice in terms of fun things to talk about on the show as always. And we're, you know, having a good time doing it. So we got some, we have chosen from all of those choices. So we're going to be doing a couple of things. We're going to do a chapter and verse, but it's actually multiple chapters. We're just going to be talking about Acts 23 through, what, 26? Something like that?

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Ish, yeah, around there.

• 4:11Speaker 00

  And the imprisonment of Paul, which will be interesting. And then it's an artifacts and fiction where we're going to be talking, you know, we have mentioned it before, but we're going to have Dan tell Dan about the Tell Dan Stele. So that will be a lot of fun.

• 4:31Speaker 01

  And before all the comment sections fill up with Stele Dan references.

• 4:38Speaker 00

  No, fill them up. Fill them up. Make all the Stele Dan references you want to. Come up with clever puns on Stele Dan titles. It's all fair game. We're here for it.

• 4:53Speaker 00

  But let's just dive in first with chapter and verse.

• 5:01Speaker 00

  All right. So here we are in Acts. I have not, I'll be honest.

• 5:08Speaker 00

  This will surprise no one. I've not read the Bible. I read the parts of the Bible that I need to read to bone up for this show. And I am obviously, as we've got, you know, we've been doing this for three and some, and change years now. I've read quite a bit of it in fits and starts, in bits and pieces.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Still some dark spots, some shadowy areas, though, where we tend not to, like Mufasa said, don't never go there with.

• 5:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, I try not to, but one of the things that I've kind of missed that's interesting is the story of Paul, which I kind of have a vague sense of. I've heard of the road to Damascus. I've heard of Saul. But I think before we really get to the story that we're going to get to, I would like a, just a quick, a quick primer, primer, however you want to pronounce it, on Paul up until this point. Can you just give me the Cliff Notes on that?

• 6:18Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, we're in, so Acts starts off talking mainly about Peter and then is like, but you don't want to hear about Peter. You want to hear about Paul. And so.

• 6:28Speaker 00

  Well, wait, there's more. Act now and we'll throw in Paul.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  The real Mark Hamill.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  That's a deep cut. That's going to be a deep cut for some folks.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  But yeah, this, well, the most immediate context is he returns to Jerusalem and there are some accusations waiting there for him of teaching against the temple, against the Torah, against the Jewish people. The temple is still standing in this time period. And he's nearly killed by a crowd. So he's having a rough time of a lot of this.

• 7:06Speaker 00

  And yeah, as I was reading these chapters, I'm going to take us back a little further because I kept learning things about Paul. And then I was like, oh, wait, he's a what? Oh, wait, he's a what? Because, because at one point he's a Pharisee. And I'm like, oh, he's a Pharisee. And then at another point, he's a Roman. And I'm like, oh, he's a Roman? What's, like, so, so, so we have a Roman citizen, a born Roman citizen. Is that right?

• 7:35Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. Yeah. He was, he was born a citizen, so, which, which is not necessarily incommensurate with being a Pharisee. He can be both. And so this is, and this is what gets him out of trouble is when there are times when he's going to be, you know, shackled for causing a riot. And, and he says, is this how you treat a Roman citizen?

• 8:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  And, and.

• 8:03Speaker 00

  He's got cards to play.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  So, so this is, he's got, he's got plenty of cards up his sleeve. And he's been traveling around. He's been starting up congregations. He's been teaching the good word and now he's in trouble with the Sanhedrin.

• 8:23Speaker 00

  And what is the Sanhedrin?

• 8:25Speaker 01

  The Sanhedrin is the, is the council, the Jewish council that is kind of their, their highest legal body in the Roman period when they don't have an awful lot of authority. So the council is, you know, in kind of a love hate relationship with the Roman authorities because they get a lot of their power from the Roman authorities, but also they don't like the Roman authorities. And so the Roman Tribune is.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  Claudius is like, take him to the, to the Sanhedrin to figure out what precisely he's done.

• 9:01Speaker 00

  So I'm glad that you told me what the Sanhedrin was because I was picturing like a, like, I was like a tetrahedron. I thought it was like the octagon. Let's take him.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Take him to the octagon and we will test his metal.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's, uh, it's not quite like that, but yeah, the, the Sanhedrin is the, the council.

• 9:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  And, uh, and that's how we, that's where our scene is laid at the beginning of, of Acts 23, one, where he basically is, is given the floor.

• 9:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  And, uh, he starts off by saying, up to this day, I have lived my life with a clear conscience before God. And then the high priest says, hey, smack him. And, uh,

• 9:44Speaker 00

  Which is a pretty, like, that's pretty funny. Like, I mean, I guess he just said not guilty, really. And then they're like, oh yeah, well, what if we hit you now?

• 9:53Speaker 01

  How does that taste? Yeah. I can, I can just, uh, I, I would love to see Monty Python do this and have somebody up there going, smite him. And, uh,

• 10:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Or maybe, maybe that's more a, uh, it's always sunny in Philadelphia kind of vibe.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  But, um, and, and then Paul says, God will strike you, you whitewashed wall, which is kind of as, as salty as Paul gets.

• 10:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Uh, but yeah, you, you, I would love to see that dramatized where Paul is just like, how very dare you.

• 10:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. Excuse much, rude or anything?

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, and, uh, he says, are you sitting there to judge me according to the law yet? In violation of the law, you order me to be struck? And then the, the people standing by who were ordered to strike him were like, how dare you insult God's high priest? And, and this is where, where Paul kind of does a mea culpa. Uh, and is like, um, I did not realize, brothers, that he was the high priest. Word is written, you shall not speak evil of a leader of your people. So he's, he's kind of like backs down off of his bravado.

• 11:05Speaker 00

  Right.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Uh, but then he

• 11:06Speaker 00

  Everybody needs to take a bit of a chill pill at this point. There's a lot of striking talk happening.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  And then, and then according to verse six, Paul noticed that some were Sadducees and others were Pharisees. Where, and, and so you can kind of see the dramatization where he's like, my bad, my bad. But, uh, what about this? And basically just hurls this rhetorical bomb into the middle of the Pharisees and the Sadducees. He says, brothers, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees. I am on trial concerning the hope of the resurrection of the dead. And then because the Pharisees believe in the resurrection of the dead, the Sadducees do not.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  They, you know, you, you get the, the raised fists at each other in the council. And so he basically, uh, starts a squabble, an internal squabble in the, the Sanhedrin as his, uh, as that, that card that he has up his sleeve.

• 12:05Speaker 00

  And is the idea here that he's sort of, he, I mean, he, it sounds like he's pulling a bit of a fast one.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. He's, this is like what Jesus would do where, where he was like, oh, the, the one among you who is free from sin cast the first, like, you know, he's

• 12:20Speaker 00

  Right. Because he's not actually there because of his belief in resurrection. He's there because of his belief in all resurrection, right? In, in Jesus's resurrection specifically.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Well, he's there. Yeah. They, they understand the, his preaching to be counterproductive and, and to be preaching against the Jewish institutions, the temple, the Torah, uh, the Jewish identity. And so he, he basically, he starts this squabble. And, uh, the certain scribes of the Pharisees group stood up and contended, we find nothing wrong with this man. What if the spirit or an angel has spoken to him? Because they believe in spirits and angels and they believe in the resurrection. And so now that he's started the fight, they gotta take his side. And then the dissension becomes violent. So like they're, you wonder how they get anything done when all anybody has to do is go,

• 13:16Speaker 01

  resurrection. And, um, you know, then the fistfights break out.

• 13:21Speaker 00

  Right.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Uh, and then the, the Tribune, fearing that they would tear Paul to pieces, ordered the soldiers to go down, take him by force and bring him into the barracks. And, uh, and then the next verse, uh, you know, is what usually happens when, when you start a fight at the Sanhedrin and you get thrown in the barracks? That night, the Lord stood near him and said, keep up your courage for just as you have testified for me in Jerusalem, so you must bear witness also in Rome. So we

• 13:50Speaker 00

  Sealing his fate for a while.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  But we get, we got a, a nice little, um, you know, mile marker

• 13:57Speaker 00

  Right.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  in our, our story, a little bit of foreboding. Uh, the, the omniscient narrator has decided to chime in and, and let you know where things are headed.

• 14:07Speaker 00

  Foreshadowing, I would say. I mean, maybe it's foreboding as, I guess it's foreboding as well because it means he's going to be in captivity for a lot longer than he had to have been.

• 14:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then obviously there's a conspiracy and a bunch of, uh, his enemies have bound themselves by an oath. Neither to eat nor drink until they had killed Paul because, you know, that's how things go. And you, you get together with your buddies and you're like, we're not going to eat or drink until we have done this stupid thing.

• 14:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. It was like, is, is, yeah. It was like they, they, they cursed themselves if they, if they were going to eat or drink before they kill, which by the way, did they starve to death? I, we don't get a, we, we don't get a follow up on that, but I feel like we should.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  It seems like they probably broke their oath. And I would, I would like to know if the oath keepers have ever said, we will, we were not going to eat or drink until we have done the thing.

• 15:00Speaker 00

  Um, uh, by the way, this is a, this was like 40, 40 plus, over 40 men who, uh, who

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah. There are 40 people. And they went straight to the chief priests and said, hey, just so you know, we took an oath, we bound ourselves by an oath to taste no food until we have killed Paul.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  And, and then they're like, so you and the council must notify the Tribune to bring him down to you on the pretext that you want to make a more thorough examination of this case and we are ready to do away with him before he arrives. It's, it's not really a secret combination here. It's a, it's a quite public combination.

• 15:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Where they, they go to the high priest and he's like, so here's our scheme.

• 15:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Uh, to illegally murder the guy that you're trying. And the son of Paul's sister, huh? Evidently Paul's got family in the area, heard about the ambush. So he went and gained entrance to the barracks and told Paul. And here's why you gotta keep your secret combination secret.

• 15:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  When you go announce on the street, yeah, we're going to march down there and we took an oath, oath not to eat or drink anything, uh, until we've killed Paul. So yeah, we're going to go down there.

• 16:09Speaker 00

  Hey, none of you are his nephew, right?

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 16:12Speaker 00

  Nobody here is his nephew, right? Cause that would, that would ruin the whole thing.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Keep this on the DL, everybody. Um, just because we're shouting it from the rooftops. And, um, so they get word to Paul and he calls one of the centurions and, uh, says, take this young man to the Tribune for he has something to report to him. So he took him and brought him to the Tribune and said, the prisoner Paul called me and asked me to bring this young man to you. He has something to tell you. The Tribune took him by the hand, drew him aside privately and asked, what is it that you have to report to me? And here you can envision the Tribune getting down on one knee so he can be eye level with the kid. Evidently he's a kid. If he's taking him by the hand and he's like, all right, young man, what is it? And, uh, the Jews have agreed to ask you to bring Paul down to the council tomorrow

• 17:00Speaker 01

  as though they were going to inquire more thoroughly into his case, but do not be persuaded by them for more than 40 of their men are lying in ambush for him. They have bound themselves by an oath, neither to eat nor drink until they kill him. They are ready now and are waiting for your consents. Um, and then the Tribune's like, uh, okay. Well, be on your way, young man. Tell no one you have informed me of this.

• 17:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. Be a little, be a little more discreet than they.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  So he grabs two centurions and, uh, is basically gonna abscond with Paul, uh, in the night. As, as one does.

• 17:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  For, uh, Caesarea.

• 17:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  Which is a lovely, uh, coastal city. This is where Herod basically built his, his summer home.

• 17:47Speaker 00

  A coastal city in what is now modern day Israel. Is that right?

• 17:50Speaker 01

  Correct. Yes. Right on the shores of the Mediterranean Sea.

• 17:54Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  Uh, and gets 200 soldiers, 70 horsemen and 200 spearmen just to, uh, just to ensure that those 40 wackadoos are not able to, to, you know, chase them down.

• 18:06Speaker 00

  That seems sufficient to me.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:09Speaker 00

  That's a 200, uh, against 40.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Maybe even overkill.

• 18:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:14Speaker 01

  But yeah.

• 18:15Speaker 00

  Plenty. More than enough.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  And he also, uh, provides mounts for Paul to ride.

• 18:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  Um, and take him safely to Felix, the governor, and wrote a letter, Claudius Lysius, to his excellency, the governor Felix, greetings. And then basically says, uh, this man was seized by the Jews, was about to be killed by them. But when I learned that he was a Roman, I came with the guard and rescued him. And, uh, I want to know what the charge is. I brought him to their council. I found that he was accused concerning questions of their law, but was charged with nothing deserving death or imprisonment. When I was informed there would be a plot against the man, I sent him to you at once, ordering his accusers also to state before you what they have against him. So that's the letter. And now I'm thinking of, uh, the end of, uh, uh, Gladiator. When, you know, they're all, everybody's darting around in the night with a little conspiracy.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  So they

• 19:09Speaker 00

  The thing that I'm still mystified by is a, uh, sorry to go back, but now we've had him, we've had him be able to write, register visually that there are Sadducees and Pharisees there. I, did they have uniforms? Did they have a big S on theirs chest and a, and a P? Like, it just seems, I don't know how.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  No, it was, it was, uh, red and blue bandanas.

• 19:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  No, they, um, yeah, we, we don't really, I don't think we have a good idea about any kind of dress that, that might have clearly distinguished. Every Sadducee from every Pharisee. That's a great question, though.

• 19:50Speaker 00

  Clearly, they had some way of distinguishing, like he had some way of visually distinguishing them.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:55Speaker 00

  Which is interesting to me.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  They, and it could be the way they wore their tassels.

• 19:59Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  Or, you know, something like that. There could have been, there certainly could have been some tradition that, you know, they had the, they had the big fur hats. They're, I don't know. That's a, that's a great question, though. That's an interesting thing. I'll have to look into that.

• 20:20Speaker 01

  So Dan, you've heard me talk ad nauseam about the fact that we've got construction going on at the house. We are-

• 20:26Speaker 00

  I've heard the construction.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, you've heard the construction, too. We're finishing our basement. We're actually adding on to the house. We're doing some stuff in the backyard. And I was thinking the other day about how nice it was to be able to do this, because we, I wanted to get a new car and I wanted to do these, these improvements to the house, but we had to pay off our old car and that took actual planning, which you know I hate. And so I really had to shift my thinking quite a bit when it came to my finances. And we had to set dates and we had to create a budget and it was so satisfying to actually make a plan.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  And then even though it took some discipline and there were some bumps in the road, we actually succeeded and were able to pay off a car. Got a brand new car. And it feels so relieving to know that if we actually set these goals and plan for them and stick to them, it goes from, oh, this will never end, actually feeling like you have control over stuff. And that has made a huge difference to me and to my family.

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• 24:07Speaker 00

  And then, and now suddenly we know, you know, I, it just occurred to me like that, you know, the guy's like, I found that he was a Roman. So we can't, you know, I gotta protect him. How? How do you know? You're just taking his word for it that he's a Roman? Does he have the, you know, the Wakanda thing on his lip? Like, how do you know?

• 24:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I don't think they talk about him presenting any papers or anything like that.

• 24:35Speaker 00

  So I don't, I'm, these are the mysteries that, that I get hung up on.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  You got any, you got any papes, man?

• 24:44Speaker 01

  But so they, they send him off to Felix and they keep him under guard in Herod's headquarters. So interesting place. You can go, you can go visit. Well, I wouldn't visit there right now, but it is a visitable place that has a lovely cafe by the, by the, the former

• 25:10Speaker 01

  port area that they, where the ships would come in. What do they call that? My brain is just gone.

• 25:18Speaker 00

  I think port sounds right.

• 25:20Speaker 01

  Okay, fine. Where they've built up a kind of break.

• 25:24Speaker 00

  Oh, like a pier?

• 25:26Speaker 01

  Well, to, to allow the, the ships to come in and be in calmer water.

• 25:33Speaker 00

  Right.

• 25:34Speaker 01

  And yeah, I sound like a fourth grader right now trying to describe.

• 25:37Speaker 00

  It's okay.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  It looks like the thing where the, you know. I saw one when I was in Paris.

• 25:43Speaker 00

  So is this Herod? You said Herod. Is, is this a Herod that we know or it's a different Herod?

• 25:48Speaker 01

  Well, it was built by, by Herod the Great. But yeah, we do have, I believe it's Herod Agrippa that is in this area.

• 25:58Speaker 00

  Oh, that's right. I forget that there are like 400 Herods in the space of like 50 years. There's all the Herods.

• 26:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it was, it was, it was Herod the Great who actually built the area up, but, and, and obviously all his little, his little Herods, they got to.

• 26:19Speaker 00

  You're various and sundry Herods.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So they, they keep him under, under lock and key, Herod's headquarters. Five days later, the high priest Ananias shows up with some elders and an attorney. My representation here. And they go and they report their case against Paul to the governor. And then they summon Paul. And then Tertullus or Turtleus begins to, Turtleus, that would be, he was, he was part of the entourage. But began to accuse him, saying, because of you, most excellent Felix, we have long enjoyed peace and reforms have been made for this people because of your foresight. In every way and everywhere, we welcome this with utmost gratitude, but to detain you no further.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  I beg you to hear us briefly with your customary graciousness, with the butt kissing out of the way. We have in fact found this man a pestilent fellow, an agitator among all the Jews throughout the world and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes. He even tried to profane the temple. So we seized him. By examining him yourself, you will be able to learn from him concerning everything of which we accuse him, which sounds kind of funny. He's like, he did some bad stuff. You ask him, he'll tell you all the bad stuff he did.

• 27:39Speaker 00

  Right. Because, because I can't imagine that there was a law on the books against being a pestilent fellow.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Fellow, yeah.

• 27:48Speaker 00

  That, that feels like that's, that's a tough one to, to nail down.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is not Judean code, section 10.303, paragraph A subsection one. And then the governor.

• 28:06Speaker 00

  Oh, by the way, but I do want to stop and just say, well, the Nazarenes is, so he was also a Nazarene?

• 28:13Speaker 01

  Well, Nazarene just means somebody from Nazareth, but it seems like that took on significance as a way to refer to followers of Jesus.

• 28:22Speaker 00

  Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  These are the ones, because we.

• 28:24Speaker 00

  The sect of the, of the Nazarenes is, is just, is Christians, but we don't have that word yet.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  Right, right. So this is, this is the, those weirdos who follow the Nazarene.

• 28:35Speaker 00

  Right.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  The, that guy from Nazareth.

• 28:39Speaker 00

  And he tried to profane the temple. How did he try to do that? Do we know?

• 28:43Speaker 01

  Uh, yes, it's, it's much earlier in Acts. It's, it's way overblown. But, but yeah, he is basically, he was talking about Jesus and about, yeah, it's.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  Hey, I haven't read that chapter in a while.

• 29:03Speaker 00

  Okay, sorry. I do like it when I do like it when I get to stump you sometimes.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  Well, and yeah, it happens. That's it's it's fun on the lives I do on YouTube. If I can get through an entire like two and a half hour live without getting stumped, but it's rare these days because they're getting pretty, they've got all kinds of questions. Um, governor motions for Paul to speak. He does the, you know, the pleasantries. Uh, it is not more than 12 days since I went up to worship in Jerusalem. They did not find me disputing with anyone in the temple or stirring up a crowd either in the synagogues or throughout the city. Neither can they prove to you the charge that they're that they now bring against me. But this I admit to you that according to the way, which they call a sect,

• 29:54Speaker 01

  I worship the God of our ancestors, believing everything laid down according to the law or written in the prophets. And he basically is testifying now that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. Therefore, I do best, I do my best always to have a clear conscience towards God and all people. Uh, I came to bring alms to my people and to offer sacrifices. While I was doing this, they found me in the temple, completing the rite of purification without any crowd or disturbance. Uh, but there were some Jews from Asia. They ought to be here before you to make an accusation if they have anything against me or let these men here tell what crime they had found when I stood before the council. Unless it was this one sentence that I called out while

• 30:37Speaker 01

  standing before them, it is about the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial before you today. Um, and maybe Paul's like, anybody? No, no fights breaking out for this one? Um, and Felix, who the text says was rather well informed about the way. And this is, I don't know if you've heard this before, but people talk about how before it was Christianity, it was just called the way.

• 30:58Speaker 00

  The way, yeah. I mean, yeah, he's, he uses that as he says, which they call a sect. So he's clear, when he says the way, and it's capitalized also in, in the NRSV.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. In most translation, it looks, translations, it looks like it's capitalized.

• 31:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. So, so, so that's, that's sort of an official designation of, of Jesus follower. I'm a member of the way.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Do you like, you know, if you're in the matrix universe, you got the one. And here we got the way.

• 31:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  And so he adjourns and basically delays stuff. When Lysias, the Tribune comes down, I will decide your case. Uh, so he orders the centurion to keep him in custody, but says, give him a little bit of liberty not to prevent any of his friends from taking care of his needs. So he's basically under a kind of house arrest. Uh, and he's got buddies who can come and go and do his shopping for him and stuff like that.

• 32:01Speaker 00

  Right.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  And, and then I was, I mentioned to you when we discussed doing this segment that I've, I've been to Caesaria a couple of times. First time was in 2019 and then in 2023 I was there. And, uh, in between my two trips there, they discovered, uh, cells underground, not, not like flagella and stuff like that, not those kinds of cells, but like prison cells that were associated with the complex, the Herodian complex, which included a hippodrome and, and all that kind of stuff and, and Herod's palace. And, uh, and one of the, the popular things to do, uh, visitors to Caesaria is to go,

• 32:45Speaker 01

  there's a, there's a little courtyard, remains of a little courtyard where there was a little, uh, there's a hole in the middle where there would have been a, you know, a little fire that would have been burning. But this is a lot of scholars think if, if this is historical, that he was before Felix in Caesaria, this would have been the room.

• 33:04Speaker 00

  Okay, sure.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  It would have happened. And so a popular thing for visitors to do is one of them goes and stands where the, the throne would have, or you know, the seat would have been and the other kind of sits there and pleads their case before, uh, the, the area. But, but, uh, between my two visits, they discovered these, uh, these underground, uh, jail cells, which depending on how, how much comfort they afforded Paul, uh, he might have been imprisoned in those very jail cells. So.

• 33:37Speaker 00

  Nice. I mean, not nice. It's not nice to be imprisoned, but that's.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  It's fascinating. Yeah.

• 33:42Speaker 00

  That's cool that they found that. And, and also like anytime something that we read from the Bible can match up to a, an actual like thing that we know about now, that's always neat. That's always extra cool.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, uh, so, so the, uh, the guy wants to delay things a little bit and delays things for a couple of years.

• 34:08Speaker 00

  Sure. Why not?

• 34:10Speaker 01

  What's a couple of years between friends?

• 34:12Speaker 00

  Right.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Um, and you have, uh, so some days later, when Felix came with his wife Driscilla, who was Jewish, he sent for Paul and heard him speak concerning faith in Christ Jesus. So he's kind of, he's, he's kind of like a party favor. He's like, my wife wants to see the Jewish guy. Bring him out. What's the thing you say about Jesus?

• 34:30Speaker 00

  Um, do that thing you do where you talk about that guy. Cause that, I, that's always fun.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then it says, and as he discussed justice, self-control and the coming judgment, Felix became frightened and said, go away for the present. When I have an opportunity, I will send for you. And it says, at the same time, he hoped that money would be given him by Paul. And for that reason, he used to send him very often and converse with him. So it sounds like it, Paul is Felix's little play thing there in prison and, and Caesaria. And, uh, and then Felix is like replaced by Porsches Festus. And, uh, it says, since he wanted to grant the Jews a favor, Felix left Paul in prison. So, uh, yeah, they didn't have a lot of, uh, the due process seems like it's being kind of stymied a little bit here.

• 35:20Speaker 00

  I mean, it, I, we don't know yet. What we do know is that the right to a speedy trial was not, uh, was not one that was afforded to him.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, we were, we were still a little ways off from, from Madison Penning.

• 35:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Uh, the, uh, the rights that would later become part of the, uh, what was it? It was the Ten Commandments? No.

• 35:41Speaker 00

  Yes, the Bill of Rights.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  The Bill of Commandments. That's right.

• 35:45Speaker 00

  The Bill of, the Bill of the Ten Commandments. Um, we need to press on. We, we're running out of time here.

• 35:50Speaker 01

  Oh, it's just, it's, it's, there's so many cool details in here. Uh, Paul appeals to the emperor. Uh, Paul is like, look, I, I know my rights. Um, there are very few of them.

• 36:02Speaker 00

  Right.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  And they are being trampled on, but, uh, I, uh, want to go before the emperor. Uh, I've done no wrong to the Jews, as you very well know, Acts 25 10. Now, if, uh, and then Festus says, you have appealed to the emperor, to the emperor, you will go.

• 36:19Speaker 00

  And that's the emperor of Rome in Rome?

• 36:23Speaker 01

  Uh, yes. And that's, and, and I think that's what results in Paul having to, to go to Rome. Lots of speed bumps, lots of, uh, side quests.

• 36:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  Along the way.

• 36:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  Uh, but Festus consults with King Agrippa, uh, who, who comes to Caesaria. And, uh, Paul is brought before Agrippa, you know, you'll love this guy. Bring, get the guy out here.

• 36:48Speaker 00

  Um, this is our favorite prisoner. He is wacky. You're gonna love him.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  Um, and then Paul defends himself before Agrippa. And then we have this famous thing where, uh, Paul, uh, you know, tells his story, tells of his conversion, uh, and, and goes on to preach. And then, uh, he gets Agrippa to say, uh, you, you've almost convinced me to become a Christian.

• 37:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Close, but no cigar there, Paul.

• 37:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Um, and, uh, and then, and Agrippa says to Festus, the end of Acts 26, uh, Agrippa kind of goes, you know what? If this guy hadn't appealed to the emperor, we would have freed him.

• 37:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  So you, you get a little.

• 37:32Speaker 00

  I was like, ah, you sucker.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So there, it certainly feels like there are elements of literary craftsmanship going on here where, uh, we get a little foreboding from a little Jesus. We, we get a little, um, kind of court intrigue with, uh, with all these things. And then we get a little, just missed the boat. Um, we, we watched a movie the other day with my, with my kids and, uh, they were like, I hate movies where there's a misunderstanding. And like, you just want the misunderstanding to be clarified. And it's the very, very end of the movie where it's like, no, that's right. Um, so, uh, so that happens here. Agrippa's like, no, yep, shouldn't have appealed to the emperor. We would have let you go.

• 38:18Speaker 00

  We would have let him go.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  And then they start sailing for, for Rome and then, and then they get shipwrecked on Malta, which is one of the coolest places in, in the world. I love going to Malta. If you've, um, if you've never been, you definitely got to check out the, uh, Ayerim temples and particularly the, you gotta go to Gozo, you gotta go to the underground temple.

• 38:40Speaker 00

  I hear they've got some good falcons.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Uh, well, not, not live ones, but, uh, they, they also, um, yeah, if you wanna, if you wanna go somewhere where, uh, you can try some horse meat, uh, that's part of the, uh, that's part of the cuisine there. So.

• 38:57Speaker 00

  Sounds great.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, you know, it's not awful.

• 38:59Speaker 00

  No, no, I, I, as far as I, from what I've heard, uh, thanks to our current president, there's horse meat in our, uh, coming into our, anyway. Uh, that's just, uh, the rumor that's going around. Anywho, uh, that's, that's a fun story. Uh, and we will, we'll have to come back to Paul at some point. Maybe, maybe we'll, maybe we'll go and get shipwrecked with him on, uh, Malta.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. They, they got snakes there too. That, that plays a role in the story. So.

• 39:31Speaker 00

  I need to get St. Patrick over there. All right. Uh, well, that was fun. Uh, let's move along to our artifacts and fiction.

• 39:45Speaker 00

  Okay, so, Tell Dan is spelled T E L D A N.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 39:52Speaker 00

  And it's not about telling us something. What does that part mean?

• 39:57Speaker 01

  So Tell Dan, it just means a hill. So it's a tell is usually what a way that archaeologists refer to the remains of an ancient city, town, village, something like that, where the accumulation of ruins has created a bump in the landscape. So

• 40:19Speaker 00

  A tell?

• 40:20Speaker 01

  A tell. Yeah. And so Dan is at the very northern end of ancient Israel. So Tell Dan is the tell that remains from this ancient city.

• 40:32Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  Another place that is visitable when that area becomes fully visitable. And they've found a mud brick city gate that dates back to around 2000 BCE.

• 40:47Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  They've found, there's a, there's a temple site there that had a four horned altar there. You can, you can go see the layout of the, of the temple.

• 40:59Speaker 00

  What does four horned mean?

• 41:01Speaker 01

  So in ancient Israel, their altars, the corners would have kind of horned looking accents on the, on the corner.

• 41:12Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  But if, so four horned altar is, is a way to refer to these altars. And you can see examples of that if you Google that. They, you know, they have them at Beersheba. They have them at a variety of different places. But there's, there's a city gate, the, the old Bronze Age mud brick one. And then there's an Iron Age one when, when this was a part of ancient Israel. And they have like a series of standing stones set up outside the gate, which is kind of the standard. You have these, these divine images that would be out there by the, the city gate.

• 41:50Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  Just to kind of, you know, represent this liminal passage from outside the city to inside the city. There's a, there's a lot going on there. But anyway, excavations 33 years ago turned up three different pieces of stone that were, they were discovered in, in a variety of different circumstances. One of them, for instance, had been reused as part of the rubble for, for a wall and other parts that were found in other areas. But they, they noticed there were inscriptions on them. And one, like when, if you're on an excavation, to find an inscription is the coolest thing ever.

• 42:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's got, that's, that is, that's pay dirt right there.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, that is the coolest thing in the, in the world. And, but they, they found these pieces and were able to put them together and recover a good chunk of an inscription that was written somewhere in the mid 9th century BCE. So like 840 ish, 830 ish.

• 42:56Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  Somewhere around there. And it's written in a kind of Aramaic that it was likely written by an Aramaean king. And the one that most people associate it with is an Aramaean king named Hazael, who's mentioned in the Hebrew Bible as the Aramaean king who did battle with kings like Jehoram slash Joram or, and Ahaziah. And as we're going to see, those names get mentioned in this inscription.

• 43:24Speaker 00

  Right.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  But the, the most famous thing about this inscription, and if you go check out the inscription, you will see it is like white chalk has filled in this part of the inscription, these six letters that spell out Bates David, House of David.

• 43:43Speaker 00

  Right.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  And that's what the inscription is, is most well known for, a reference to the house of David.

• 43:49Speaker 00

  And the white is, is a modern

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. That, that's what we've basically done. It's, that's the highlighter.

• 43:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was going to say, because this, I, I looked it up and this is now in a, in the Israel Museum in Jerusalem. And it does look like they, yeah, somebody just did a highlighter on like white. It, it feels funny that they did this, but, but yes, there it is. Those, those, like you say, those six letters.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:19Speaker 00

  And written in the way, in the way that, that we've described before, where there's no spaces, there's no

• 44:25Speaker 01

  They, they have little dots between the words.

• 44:29Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  So those are, those are, that's as, as good as we can, as we can expect from, from this kind of inscription.

• 44:38Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  So if you, if you're looking at a picture, you'll see like it almost, and they're, it almost looks like just a chip in the, in the inscription, but those dots are separating out words. Now, they don't separate them out all perfectly, the way we would do today in a printed version of the Hebrew Bible or something like that. But, but they do do that. It's, it's a very, it's a very good inscription in terms of the, the skill of the engraver. It was part of a standing stone. It's in the same kind of genre as the Mesha inscription, or the, from the Moabite stone, where it's basically the king is going, I'm such and such, and I'm so cool. And these are all the things that I did.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  So it's, it's basically his, you know, the executive summary of his, his resume.

• 45:30Speaker 00

  They should call them brag stones.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:39Speaker 05

  Hey there. I'm Travis Hoyam, one of the hosts of Motley Fool Hidden Gems Investing. Each weekday on Motley Fool Hidden Gems Investing, we talk through the business news you need to know and the stories moving stocks on Wall Street. On weekends, we game plan personal finance strategies and dive into the industries shaping tomorrow and host the experts, authors and executives that understand them. Tune in for insights and a long-term perspective on investing and of course, stock ideas, plenty of them. To quote a listener, it pays to listen. Check us out and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.

• 46:11Speaker 01

  We don't have all the inscription, but basically this is this king, probably Hazael, talking about a bunch of people he defeated. And the, the most important part is for our purposes today. I can read through the entire inscription. In fact, it's, it's somewhat fragmentary. The, the first visible word, the highest line, it just says, and cut. And then, "My father went up against him when he fought at so and so. And my father lay down. He went to his ancestors," which, which is the idiom for, he died.

• 46:48Speaker 00

  Right.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  "And the king of Israel entered previously in my father's land and Hadad," this is the Aramaean storm deity. In the Aramaean world, where they speak Aramaic, the storm deity is the head god of the pantheon.

• 47:05Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  And Hadad is, is that storm deity. Baal Hadad is, is a conflation of Baal with Hadad. But he says, "Hadad made me king," which is, you know, you would expect an Israelite to say, "I don't know. He made me king."

• 47:20Speaker 00

  Right.

• 47:21Speaker 01

  "And Hadad went in front of me and I departed from the seven lakunei." And then we got, you know, we don't know what, some things of my kingdom. "And I slew 70 kings." 70, obviously being the, that nice, large, round number.

• 47:37Speaker 00

  Right.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  Which would be the equivalent of somebody today saying, "Yeah, I killed a million kings."

• 47:41Speaker 00

  Right.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  "Who harnessed thousands of chariots and thousands of horsemen." So less than one chariot per king.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  No, a lot more. I was, I had a million in my head. Okay. So then I was like, wait a minute. They didn't, they couldn't say a million back then. So several, several per.

• 48:05Speaker 00

  Per king, yeah.

• 48:06Speaker 01

  And he says, "He killed Jehoram, son of Ahab, king of Israel." Now, this is kind of fragmentary. Like the name Ahab is not there, but we can see the end of the name Jehoram, and we can see son. And then obviously that would have been Ahab, king of Israel. King of Israel is very clearly legible.

• 48:23Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 48:23Speaker 01

  "And I killed Ahaziah, son of," and then that would be a, a different Jehoram, "king of the house of David." And that's where we get house of David.

• 48:33Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 48:34Speaker 01

  And interestingly, so he claims to have, have killed these two kings. And it says, "I, I set their towns into ruin and turned their land into desolation." And then there's a reconstruction that imagines that there's a reference to Jehu, because somebody else ruled over Israel after that. And so we think that would have been Jehu.

• 48:54Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  And that's, and it basically tapers off from there. You know, he, he basically writes, "Ah." No, he doesn't write that. It's fragmentary.

• 49:06Speaker 00

  I want to clarify one thing before we go on too far, which is, are, is this drawing a distinction between king of Israel and house of David? Like Israel and David are two different things?

• 49:21Speaker 01

  They're two different entities, but they're also, it also seems like they're two different kinds of entities.

• 49:26Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  Because Israel, Israel is, is the name of a nation, a kingdom that has a king. House of David is a dynastic designation.

• 49:35Speaker 00

  Right.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  And so what a lot of scholars think might be going on here is that the Southern Kingdom is not yet a kingdom. Judah is not a full-fledged kingdom. We just have this dynastic family that is camped out in Jerusalem that calls themselves kings. And so, well, you know, they don't, maybe the kingdom doesn't have a name yet. They're just going by House of David. But you also have other references to the, the house of Almory as a reference to the Northern Kingdom of Israel. So it's, it's not perfectly clear what's going on there. But yeah, it seems like we have the nation or the kingdom of Israel, and then we have this dynastic reference to the house of David. But this, this is widely considered

• 50:17Speaker 01

  to be kind of indirect evidence, data supporting the historicity of David. It's coming, you know, over a century after David would have lived. So, you know, there's still potential that it might not be historical. But I think most scholars would say, yeah, this leans us in the direction of concluding there, there was a historical David who began this dynasty.

• 50:42Speaker 00

  Okay. Yeah. I mean, I remember us talking about that when we, when we did a story about David. And I asked you if David was a real person.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:53Speaker 00

  And we briefly mentioned this stele.

• 50:57Speaker 00

  So interestingly, I guess before the 90s, the answer to that question would have been different.

• 51:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, there were, there were certainly scholars who thought there was a historical David, but that we didn't, we didn't have enough data to really say anything about David. And this is the closest we get to archaeological data confirming the existence of, of a historical David. It almost certainly confirms the existence of, of a Davidic dynasty.

• 51:27Speaker 00

  Right.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  So, so yeah, that's, I think that's what, what it's doing there.

• 51:31Speaker 00

  Interesting.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  Now, when we, when we go to 2 Kings, uh, here's what we have in 2 Kings 12, verses 17 and 18. At that time, King Hazael of Aram went up, fought against Gath and took it. But when Hazael set his face to go up against Jerusalem, King Jehoshaphat of Judah took all the votum gifts that Jehoshaphat, Jehoram and Ahaziah's ancestors, the kings of Judah had dedicated, as well as his own votum gifts, all the gold that was found in the treasuries of the house of the Lord and of the king's house, and sent these to King Hazael of Aram. Then Hazael withdrew from Jerusalem. So there, there's other intrigue related to, uh, the relationship between Hazael.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  Uh, but if we go up a couple of chapters to nine, 2 Kings 9, we have Jehu.

• 52:23Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  Who is-

• 52:25Speaker 00

  I remember that name popping up.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  Yes. What, what's funny is 2 Kings 920, I, I know a guy who's in a band called, uh, I think it was called Drive Like Jehu.

• 52:34Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 52:35Speaker 01

  And the reason is, 2 Kings 920 says, uh, "And again the sentinel reported, he reached them, but he is not coming back. It looks like the driving of Jehu, son of Nimshi, driving a chariot. For he drives like a maniac." So, so Jehu evidently had a reputation for, uh, for, uh, charioteering like a maniac.

• 52:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  But, um, so Jehu actually comes out and is executing judgment on the house of Ahab, according to the text. But, uh, King Joram, which is another, uh, spelling of Jehoram, and, uh, Ahaziah, so King Joram of Israel and Ahaziah of Judah, uh, they come out each in his chariot and went to meet Jehu. They met him at the property of Naboth the Jezreelite, and Jehu kills both of them.

• 53:22Speaker 00

  Right.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  So, so what we have in the Bible, and, and this is a contradiction.

• 53:27Speaker 00

  Right.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  Because we've got, we've got another account in 1st Chronicles where, uh, Jehu kills both of them, Joram and, uh, Ahaziah again, but the, the manner of Ahaziah's death is entirely different. In, in 2 Kings, he shoots, uh, Joram in the chariot and Joram's, uh, dies. And then he says, "Shoot him too," and points at Ahaziah. So they shoot Ahaziah and he flees to Megiddo and dies in Megiddo.

• 53:56Speaker 00

  Right.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  And then you, you remember that one, right?

• 53:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, we talked about that one on an episode.

• 54:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:03Speaker 00

  Many moons ago.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  And then Ahaziah's own men take him to Jerusalem and bury him in Jerusalem.

• 54:09Speaker 00

  Right.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Uh, in the 1st Chronicles account, uh, they go looking for Ahaziah and they find him hiding out in Samaria. They bring him before Jehu, they execute him, and Jehu's men say, "You know what? This guy was the, you know, a descendant of Jehoshaphat who loved the Lord with all his heart. We're gonna give him a decent burial." So Jehu's men, after they have executed Ahaziah, bury Ahaziah. But, so we have two non-reconcilable ways that Ahaziah died. Uh, and according to the Tell Dan Stele-

• 54:46Speaker 00

  Right.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  Neither of them are right.

• 54:48Speaker 00

  They're, they are further non-recu- non, uh, what did you just say?

• 54:52Speaker 01

  Reconcilable, yeah.

• 54:53Speaker 00

  Reconcilable, uh, with this, so.

• 54:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we've got, it's, uh, I understand it to be a, a kind of standoff characterized by a certain ethnic group, uh, that the three of the, the, uh, different accounts of Ahaziah's death are, uh, in conflict with, uh, with each other.

• 55:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  So, uh, because according to Tell Dan Stele, uh, it was Hazael who did it. It was, had nothing to do with, with Jehu, because Jehu would have been one of the enemies of the Aramans as well. And what's funny is you can find apologetic attempts to be like, "Well, no, Jehu was probably allied with Hazael, and so he was acting on his behalf." So like, you could say that, uh, and, and it could be that Hazael was just, you know, uh, got ye olde five finger discount on, uh, on credit for killing these-

• 55:52Speaker 00

  Was just, yeah, taking credit for, for Jehu's, uh, fine workmanship.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, he, they may have shown up on the scene and found, uh, Ahaziah with the arrow through his chest and might've been like, "Hi, yeah, got it."

• 56:05Speaker 00

  I did that, that was me.

• 56:06Speaker 01

  And he was already dead.

• 56:07Speaker 00

  I counted.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  He was already dead. No, he flinched. I had to get him. Yeah. So, uh, who knows if that's what's going on here, but, but certainly the account that we, that we find as, as that narrative goes is, is in conflict, but-

• 56:21Speaker 00

  Well, let me ask you this, because obviously, uh, the Tell Dan Stele is going to have been contemporary, contemporary with, or roughly contemporary to the time that it's telling these stories about.

• 56:37Speaker 01

  Yes, it, it probably was something that was erected, uh, at some point after, obviously, these events, but maybe many years. Maybe this was a kind of end of life, uh, "Tell my story, uh, put it on this piece of stone." And, and so it could have been years later, it could have been right after.

• 56:55Speaker 00

  But it seems likely that it's within the lifetime of a single guy.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 57:00Speaker 00

  So talk to me about when we think 2 Kings was written, when we think Chronicles was written.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  Well, the Chronicles is, is taking earlier sources and is editing them together in the post-exilic period.

• 57:14Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 57:15Speaker 01

  So like 500s, 400s BCE.

• 57:18Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  Maybe, maybe into the 300s. Um, I need to get a Chronicles expert on here to, uh, because this, that's one of the, uh, "Don't go near there." "Babaddi, stay away from there. Stay away from the river." Um, that's one of those places where, where I don't, uh, I don't dip my toe into Chronicles nearly enough, so we need to have a Chronicles expert on here to, uh, to, to give us the straight dope. But, uh, the traditions come from much earlier, and, and certainly the Chronicles editors are borrowing some from the books of Kings and Samuel, but they, they seem to have their own independent sources as well.

• 57:55Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 57:56Speaker 01

  Uh, and, and Samuel and Kings are probably based on accounts that were initially written down in the pre-exilic period. And a lot of it probably came together in the pre-exilic period. So, for instance, we, we've talked about, uh, the problem of who, who killed Goliath. Like that account of some dude named Elhanan killing Goliath, that's gotta come from pretty early for it to predate the people who were trying to glaze David and were swiping these, these feats of strength, uh, that were actually, uh, achieved by David's men.

• 58:38Speaker 01

  So it, it, that's probably more historically accurate. That's probably coming from an earlier layer of, of these traditions that may go back, you know, maybe 800 BCE, maybe 700 BCE. So some of these traditions probably go back pretty far, get pretty close to the historical David. But another interesting thing to note is the Tell Dan Stele, I, I mentioned that it's kind of in the same genre as the Moabite stone, the, the Mesha inscription. These are, uh, what they call monumental inscriptions, because they're intended to be set up as, as something that's gonna be publicly on display.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  Uh, but these are some of the earliest examples of, uh, historical narrative prose in an alphabetic script.

• 59:27Speaker 00

  Right.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  From this region. So you have the Moabite one written in Moabite, you have this, uh, Aramaean one written in, in a version of Aramaic. Uh, there's, there are, there are scholars who have pointed out, we don't have any historical narrative prose prior to these monumental inscriptions. And so that's probably where the historical narrative prose begins, is in these monumental inscriptions. That's kind of a, a logical evolution of things. I, you know, we go from, uh, you know, "I am such and such," to "I am such and such, and here's what I did, I gotta tell you my story of what I did." And then that later goes on to like historical annals, where people are copying down, "Here's what they did."

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  Um, and so the historical narratives that we find in the Bible probably do not date any earlier than this inscription. So the, the Mesha inscription and the Tell Dan Stele probably represent the terminus post-quem, the point after which for any historical narrative prose we find in the Hebrew Bible.

• 1:00:34Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  So the traditions, anything that came from before these monumental inscriptions probably would have been poetic. So it would have been, you know, short bursts of kind of poetic parallelism telling tales and things like that.

• 1:00:53Speaker 00

  So there's, are there, so what examples of that made it into the Bible?

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  So things like the Song of Deborah in Judges 5 probably predates this inscription.

• 1:01:05Speaker 00

  Oh, cool.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  Things, the Song of the Sea in Exodus 15, maybe there are scholars who argue it is very, very early. There are other scholars who are like, come on, man, it's not that early. So, um, so that's, that's another example. The, the Song of Moses might be the same, you know, it's, it's kind of these like, uh, gather around children and I'll tell you the tale of this thing and they, hey, shabbata doobity and shabbata dabata and shubba doobity and hibbity dibbity.

• 1:01:32Speaker 00

  I think that's the Song of Gilligan that you were just.

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, uh, the, it's, it's where you tell the stories with these, these little sing-songy poetic things.

• 1:01:42Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  That's, that's not historical narrative prose, but you're still telling a story.

• 1:01:45Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  Um, and so that's why a lot of people will say like Judges 5 is, might be the earliest written thing in the entire Hebrew Bible. It might go back to the time of a historical David, uh, around a thousand BCE or something like that.

• 1:02:03Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  But, but you'll notice when you look, you've got Judges 4 tells the story and then Judges 5 gives you the poem about the story.

• 1:02:10Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  So, uh, Jud- Judges 4 is probably a later narrative, um, manifestation of that story as it existed when, when narrative prose became a possibility. So, um, so.

• 1:02:24Speaker 00

  And then they're like, yeah, throw the song in.

• 1:02:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, put the song in there too. Yeah.

• 1:02:28Speaker 00

  Why not?

• 1:02:28Speaker 01

  You know, that, we're going to do what we do. Uh, you know, we got, we got Genesis 1 and then we got the other creation accounted Genesis 2. We're going to put them back to back.

• 1:02:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  Uh, we, you know, Exodus 15, the Song of the Sea. We, we just told the story and now we're going to tell it again with this song.

• 1:02:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  Where we sing about everything that happened and what happened doesn't really line up with the story that we just told. So, um, you know, that's, that's the way it goes.

• 1:02:53Speaker 00

  That's the way it goes.

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  Same as it ever was.

• 1:02:55Speaker 00

  Yep. Well, that's interesting. I love it. Uh, Steely Dan, uh, tell Dan Steely, it's all, it's all the same. Uh, it's not all the same, but it's all very interesting. And as you are, uh, very eager to point out, uh, Steely Dan was not named after this, was named before we even knew this existed.

• 1:03:17Speaker 01

  Yes. To my knowledge, there's no etymological relationship.

• 1:03:21Speaker 00

  Okay. Maybe they were just prescient, uh, in their, in their naming of the band. Well, that's it for today. Thank you all, uh, for, for coming along on the ride with us. If you would like to become a part of keeping this show rocking and rolling, we'd love to have you come on over to, uh, the Patreon over at patreon.com/dataoverdogma where you can get early, ad-free access to every episode of the show and you can get the, uh, the patrons only content that I never know what to refer to it as anymore. Uh, it used to be the after-party and now it's the, the, the pre-game.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  The pre-game.

• 1:04:05Speaker 00

  Whatever it is. Anyway, it, that's a lot of fun that we have every week and, uh, and our patrons are the only ones who get that as well as, uh, you know, the, like I said, the early access and, and who knows what else? Well, you never know what's going to happen with us. Thanks so much to Roger Gowdy for editing. Thanks to Sam Holden for being our right-hand fella and thanks to all of you for joining us. We'll talk to you again next time.

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  Bye, everybody.

• 1:04:40Speaker 00

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