Why Grit Isn’t Enough | Angela Duckworth

You’d expect the psychologist behind the bestselling book Grit https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/selfhelp11?_pos=1&_sid=c90af1c8f&_ss=r&variant=45103727542525https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/selfhelp11?_pos=1&_sid=c90af1c8f&_ss=r&variant=45103727542525to tell you to try harder, but Angela Duckworth https://www.instagram.com/angelalduckworth/ knows why that isn’t always the answer. In today’s episode, the University of Pennsylvania professor and MacArthur Fellow joins Ryan to discuss her new book, Situated https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/situated-find-the-people-and-places-that-bring-out-your-best?_pos=2&_sid=c90af1c8f&_ss=r, why certain people and places bring out our best, what she misunderstood about her own marriage, how we give away control of our attention, why our worst moments don’t tell the whole story, and more. Angela Duckworth https://www.instagram.com/angelalduckworth/ is a professor at the University of Pennsylvania and co-director of the Penn-Wharton Behavior Change for Good Initiative. A former public school teacher and 2013 MacArthur Fellow, she studies what helps people achieve their goals. Her TED talk is among the most viewed of all time. Pick up signed copies of Angela’s new book,https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/situated-find-the-people-and-places-that-bring-out-your-best?_pos=2&_sid=c90af1c8f&_ss=rSituated: Find the People and Places That Bring Out Your Best https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/situated-find-the-people-and-places-that-bring-out-your-best?_pos=2&_sid=c90af1c8f&_ss=r, and her bestselling book Grit: The Power of Passion and Perserverance https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/selfhelp11?_pos=1&_sid=c90af1c8f&_ss=r&variant=45103727542525 at The Painted Porch | https://www.thepaintedporch.com/ Learn more about Angela Duckworth's new book here: https://www.angeladuckworth.com/situated Angela Duckworth’s Website: https://www.angeladuckworth.com/ Follow Angela on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/angelalduckworth/ Thenew 10th Anniversary Edition of https://store.dailystoic.com/pages/the-daily-stoic-10The Daily Stoic https://store.dailystoic.com/pages/the-daily-stoic-10https://store.dailystoic.com/pages/the-daily-stoic-10is out NOW! 👉 Grabhttps://store.dailystoic.com/pages/the-daily-stoic-10your copy here: https://store.dailystoic.com/pages/the-daily-stoic-10 🎟️https://www.dailystoiclive.com/DAILY STOIC LIVE https://www.dailystoiclive.com/| Ryan Holiday is coming to a city near you https://www.dailystoiclive.com/! Grab tickets here https://www.dailystoiclive.com/ | https://www.dailystoiclive.com/ 🎙️AD-FREE https://dailystoic.supercast.com/| Support the podcast and go deeper into Stoicism by subscribing toThe Daily Stoic Premium https://dailystoic.supercast.com/ - unlock ad-free listening, early access, and bonus content:https://dailystoic.supercast.com/ ✉️ FREE STOIC WISDOM https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail | Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email athttps://dailystoic.com/dailyemail -- Stop online threats before they become real-world attacks. Visit ironwall.com/DAILYSTOIC and request a free Risk Assessment to see exactly how exposed your executives are. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:44Speaker 00

  How AI Is Changing Everyday Work. And right now, it's totally free. It can explain how AI can reshape work across your entire organization and how businesses like yours can prosper from it. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get this free business guide, Aligning for the Agentic Era, at netsuite.com/stoic. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/stoic. If you understand what grit is, you might think that a proponent of grit would tell you that the secret to success in life, the secret to succeeding, is to just try harder, to push beyond your limits, to do more. And I think sometimes people expect that to be my advice, too, that it's all about effort,

• 1:28Speaker 00

  that it's all about reaching within you and pulling out what you need in a given moment. But that's not how life is. That's not how it is in practice. And I think anyone that's done anything or that has any shred of self-awareness knows that this isn't true, right? In some moments, we're exactly what we need to be, and in other moments, we fall short. Why is that? What's the cause? I mean, it could be as simple as forgetting to eat breakfast or not getting enough sleep the night before, or just having the wrong attitude about something. I guess what I'm saying is that virtue, greatness, success, so often, it is situational, which is the concept of Angela Duckworth's new book. If you read Grit, great, it's a great book.

• 2:13Speaker 00

  I think this new book is just as important. And it's really, really interesting. It's called Situated. The subtitle is Find the People and Places That Bring Out Your Best. I'm a huge fan of Angela Duckworth's book. She's been on the podcast once before. She came here right when we opened the Daily Stoic studio. I was very excited to have her back, and we had an amazing conversation. You know, grit is not a thing you're born with or not born with, that you have or don't have. That is all or nothing. It is so much more complicated than that. And I think, as a result, so much more interesting than that. Angela Duckworth is a professor at the University of Pennsylvania. She's the co-director of the Penn Wharton Behavior Change for Good Initiative.

• 2:57Speaker 00

  She's also a 2013 MacArthur Fellow. Her TED Talk is one of the most viewed of all time. She's entertaining, she's brilliant. And I think her work is really, really important. Funny enough, the day after she was here in the studio, she was giving a talk in San Francisco with Steve Kerr, the coach of the Golden State Warriors, and my sister attended. So we'll call this a little bit of a family affair. You can pick up signed copies of Angela's new book, Situated: Find the People and Places That Bring Out Your Best, as well as signed copies of Grit here at the Painted Porch. Of course, they are also available anywhere books are sold. Let's get into it.

• 3:39Speaker 00

  So I was driving to pick up my kids from school the other day, and Pete Carroll called me.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  What?

• 3:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, which I was like, what is happening right now?

• 3:45Speaker 01

  You're BFFing Pete Carroll?

• 3:46Speaker 00

  No, I was like, how did you get this number? You know, like, in a good way. But I was just like, a total surprise.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, actually, how did he get there? Has he been on the show?

• 3:54Speaker 00

  No, I think, so I spoke to the team like many, many years ago.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  You went to go talk to the Seahawks.

• 4:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, in maybe 2015 or something. And so maybe he got it, maybe he got it there and just never, we'd never communicated in any way other than that.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Why did he call you?

• 4:10Speaker 00

  He was, he was working on, he's teaching this class at USC, and he was gonna ask me something. But you came up like in the first like five seconds, which I thought was funny, because you're here. He was like, I know Angela Duckworth says you can't teach grit.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  Did he say that?

• 4:24Speaker 00

  I was like, I don't, I don't know if that's what she said. I don't think that's the thing.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Wait, is he still saying that? I feel like this is our, like, we've got like some Laurel and Hardy kind of like thing. He knows I don't, well, anyway, that's a, it's like, I think it's not a good, it's not a well-phrased question, actually. I think the answer is less like complicated than the question.

• 4:43Speaker 00

  Well, I was gonna put it to you. You can, right? I mean, that's one of the ideas in the book, is that it's something you can cultivate, right?

• 4:49Speaker 01

  I think almost every feature of human nature is cultivatable slash malleable, right? And then, which are not the same thing, because some things might be malleable, but you have no agency to cultivate it, right? But I do think that you can cultivate it. You can encourage or discourage. I mean, do you agree? Like, humility, sociability, charisma, wisdom. I mean, you know, these are malleable. I think they're malleable and cultivatable.

• 5:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I can get why, as a coach, he would have a visceral reaction to any implication that these things can't be taught. Because like, his job is to teach and get these things out.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  Literally, I think this is it. So at the end of my TED Talk, I said, I think accurately, we don't yet know how to encourage grit in young people. And I think I tried to do something like too cute by half. It's like, and we have to be gritty about like figuring that out. Okay, cut to black, right? Like, that was like, you know, a six-minute TED Talk. And I think he saw that, because I think he saw that, and that's what made him reach out to me now, more than 10 years ago. But we have had so many interactions, including him coming to my class. So Pete should know that when I teach a class called Grit Lab to undergraduates, the implicit message is like, of course you can cultivate it. I think you can cultivate it.

• 6:04Speaker 00

  It's funny, because actually, athletic performance is probably a good example, where like different people are born with different amounts of abilities. Certainly, you can waste that ability and, and not cultivate it, even if you have the necessary ingredients. And then other people can, on paper, shouldn't be able to do the thing at an elite level at all, and find a way to do it.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  And find a way, okay. But then, let's go beyond sports, right? Because like, human nature, right? Nature and nurture, like what does, and I was gonna say 50 years, maybe more, of behavioral genetics tell us? So like, I have my DNA from my biological mother and my biological father. And it is true that I cannot change that DNA. So let's call that fixed, right? And let's leave epigenetics aside, because obviously, the expression of your DNA does have some influence from the environment. But, but we know from all of those years, all the twin studies, that every characteristic that has ever been studied, in addition to the DNA influence, has environmental influence. So like, right there, it should tell you that extraversion,

• 7:11Speaker 01

  religiosity, grit, and everything else about you, including height, by the way, like has an environmental input. And, you know, that's the part that like I feel maybe somehow like is hard to communicate, like the nuance that it's, that it's both? And that the more interesting, I think the more interesting conversation is, like, assuming that you can change these things to some degree, like, how does that happen, right? And like, how stable is it? And also, you know, how much of it is just like, you're in a particular situation, and your grit is encouraged versus like you are actually literally grittier over time? Like Ryan in 2026 compared to Ryan in 2021? Versus like, oh, Ryan's just in this situation,

• 7:56Speaker 01

  and he's, he's being passionate and persevering. But in that other situation, he's not. I think they're, by the way, both true. Like, this is the level of nuance, by the way, Ryan. I think it's very hard in this like media environment, for lack of a better word, to like, get anybody to think about something for like more than a sentence. But like, you know, grit isn't fixed is like one sentence. But like, I think there are more sentences.

• 8:17Speaker 00

  Well, that is, I think, some of the problems with, yeah, the sort of short-form video culture, and then also the AI. Just give me a summary, or give me the argument.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 8:24Speaker 00

  It's like, if I thought this thing could be captured in five paragraphs, I would not have written an entire book. Now, there are certainly people who are writing books because they gave a TED Talk, and then someone gave them a book contract. And they're, they're taking an idea that doesn't have any nuance and giving, and just inflating it.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Like taking a tire pump to it?

• 8:42Speaker 00

  But most of the time, actually, with a book, what you're doing is, is having to explore this thing at length. Because length is the only place that it can be explored and explained.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  People forget, books are a technology, right? Like, a technology is the application of knowledge to solve a problem, right? So like, tables are a technology. Forks and knives are a technology. Light bulbs are a technology. AI is a technology. But books are a technology. And I, okay, so after I wrote Grit, I first was disappointed that I didn't think the goal, which was to share something about the nature of human excellence. You know, I was disappointed, candidly, that I was like, oh, this didn't change as many lives as I thought. So then, for a good five years, I cast about for a different way, like a different technology. I was like, maybe I should create a class. Maybe I should create a video class.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  And I came around to the idea that the technology of the book is maybe not the only technology. But the reason I think we still have books is that this particular human innovation is

• 9:49Speaker 01

  A fantastic way to explore an idea with depth, but also like you don't spend your whole lifetime with the author, right? You're not like, okay, I'm so interested in Stoicism.

• 10:00Speaker 00

  I'm gonna study under that person.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  I'm gonna study under this person, I'm not gonna do anything else. But, but a book is like an incredibly efficient medium for the author to explore an idea and to present it to you in a way I hope that's provided. And then also for the, for the reader. And, and I, I think that's why like books have.

• 10:16Speaker 00

  Let me pause it.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:17Speaker 00

  I think it's, I think the second part is actually as important. So, so the author has 50,000 to 100,000, or you know, in the case of a, a big biography, 500,000 words to explore the topic.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:28Speaker 00

  But it's actually the other side of spending not 20 minutes with an idea, but 10 or 15 or 20 hours with an idea, not consecutively. That is the value, right? Because very rarely does someone sit down and read a book from cover to cover. You're reading it on this airplane flight, and then you're reading it before bed, and then you're reading it at the beach, and then you're reading it, then you're discussing it in your book club, or whatever it is, right? Like, it's, it's that you, the author, spent thousands of hours with an idea.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Countless hours, but yeah.

• 10:58Speaker 00

  And it was distilled down into this thing, and then that person paid for it.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:03Speaker 00

  And then paid for it again with many hours of their time.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  And also not in one sitting.

• 11:08Speaker 00

  The time in between where it's just gestating and they're, they're reflecting on it and thinking about it. And then ideally, there's some other use after where you're discussing it, or you're writing about it, or you're taking notes from it, or whatever. But, but I, I think it is, it's not just a great technology, but it's, your point is that books are a very under-celebrated form of technology. They have lasted 4,000s of years for a reason. It has evolved from little scrolls that you rolled up to, you know, this, which is maybe the best form of it, to an ebook, an audiobook. But all of these are the fundamental same technological idea that's lasted for a reason.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  So, last night I had dinner with Bob Bowman, who I know you know, because fellow, would you, Austenite, is that a term? Like, is an Austenite? He was telling me about The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. Which I was like, I started that book. He's like, did you hate it? And I was like, I definitely did not hate it. I can't remember finishing it, but anyway. So he tells me he's read it not once, but I think in his estimate, 10 to 12 times, right? And, right, not all in one sitting, and over years, right? And he told me about like the context of like why he read it the first time, and like why it was so important, he remembered, and like has internalized and continues to masticate over the thesis of it, right? Like, now is real, the future is not, the past isn't, but now is now.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  Anyway, the, the idea that a book, I mean, you know, again, I, I cast about for alternative technologies, right? And I personally haven't found one. And I think you're right to point out, it's, it's not only a miraculous technology for the author, like it's a great medium for you to actually think through and write down, but also, you know, writing is thinking, and thinking is writing. Like, but also on the reader's side, right? Like, it's a, it's a marvelous, you know.

• 12:55Speaker 00

  It's portable, it's storageable, it goes on a shelf after, you can come back to it, you can mark.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  The haptics of it, right? Like, you know, the like, and also, paper's a goddamn good technology, right? Like, paper's great, like, it's flexible, like, you know what I mean? Like, you can fold it, whatever, like, so, so anyway, I, I, in praise of books, so it's great that we're.

• 13:13Speaker 00

  I have two books in the bookstore, which by the way, another technology that goes back.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  Bookstores.

• 13:18Speaker 00

  A very long time. Yes, bookstores, like, you go, well, can't the algorithm just automatically select for you? It's like, no, actually, the browsing and the covers and the experience, all of this. Stoicism starts in a bookstore. I don't know if you know this story.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  No, no, no, tell me the origin story, yeah.

• 13:31Speaker 00

  So the founder of Stoicism, he's this guy, you know, he visits the, the temple of Apollo at Delphi in Greece, and the prophecy from the, the priestess says, you know, the, the good life is having conversations with the dead. He has no idea what this means. So many years later, he's in Athens.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  Conversations with the dead. Okay, I'm following it, yeah.

• 13:50Speaker 00

  At a bookstore, he walks past a stand, so, because again, you'd need less space when there are little scrolls. He's at this bookstand in the Athenian agora, bookseller, cart maybe, and the bookseller is reading, I don't know if it's sideways or this way, but he's reading something from Xenophon's story of Socrates, Hercules at the Crossroads. It's a famous story between.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Story of Socrates, but obviously not written by.

• 14:12Speaker 00

  It's a story that Socrates tells us via Xenophon.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, right.

• 14:16Speaker 00

  About Hercules coming to this crossroads, and he has to pick the easy way or the hard way. And Socrates is dead, and this is when Xeno realizes that that's what conversations with the dead are, that books are a way to, to talk with the, the past. And, and so the prophecy makes sense. So, it's at this bookseller that he has this epiphany. So that's why the bookstore is called The Painted Porch.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Is that why it's called The Painted Porch? Like, literally?

• 14:39Speaker 00

  He sets up shop at the Stoa Pokhela in Athens, across the street from this bookstand, which was a famous, it was called, it was a, like a long porch that had a, a famous painting on it, so it's called The, The Painted Porch.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Ah, got it. So, I read this book called The Great Good Place. Did you read this? You didn't read The Great Good Place?

• 14:58Speaker 00

  No, never even heard of it.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  I remember actually buying it, it had a green cover and orange font. It was, I had no fancy, like, no, it feels like somebody made it in Microsoft Word or something. And it was one, you remember those like bookstores where you'd be like a dollar a book, kind of thing? So I bought it, and it was worth more than a dollar. It talked about third places, so like, there's, you know, your workplace, there's also your home, but a third place is this like, kind of, it's, uh, it's, it's not as private as your home, it's maybe not as public as, you know, something like, you know, the, the court system, but you're in a coffee shop, you're in a park. Basically, these third places is where people gather, and it has some level of intimacy, but also you're in society. And bookstores are a third place.

• 15:41Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  Coffee shops are a third place, you know, in certain cultures, like tea houses are a third place. And basically, he was saying like how important these physical spaces are to like the functioning of a society, to our everyday wellbeing, to our like growth and enlightenment. So I read the book, it was really good, by the way, I recommend it, it's probably not in print, but yeah, I mean, you know, obviously I've been thinking a lot about the situation, but I think sometimes these trivial details, like, are you holding a physical book? Do you prefer, like, what are you holding? Like, where are you? I mean, that, that is what occupied me since writing the first book, Grit, which is, you know, like, I think complimentary to this idea that the situation matters, but anyway.

• 16:22Speaker 00

  No, no, I'm so glad. I'm so glad you said this, because I have, I've thought about this a long time, that it is, it's the, maybe the primary form of technology, like, it's, it's the technology that so much of civilization is based on. The analogy I sometimes give is like, you know, like when you watch like futuristic movies, they're always like, like the doors are always like, you know, like, it's like some super complicated technology for the door.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 16:46Speaker 00

  And then here we are, living in the future, and it's like, doors are just doors with a door handle and a physical key. Like, I have a keypad for my house, and it's a giant pain in the ass, and like.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  The batteries roll is going down.

• 16:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're just like, oh, the door, just like, a door as a door has always been, with hinges and a knob and a key. It's obviously gotten a little bit better over time, but it's still the same fundamental technology, because at some level, it just does the job about as good as you need the job to be done, and everything else is kind of like fiddling at the margins.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  So, so, okay, all that said, right, there is a lot that is changing. I mean, like, one reason I persisted in writing this book, which was hell, is, is that I felt like, I don't think we're in a great situation. Like, I know that there's some perennial things, or like, oh, we still have bookstores, and we still have books, and like, look, we have doors, and like tables and forks. By the way, I read a whole book on the history of the fork, it's another great technology.

• 17:40Speaker 00

  Because didn't we used to just use knives for everything? And it was violent and.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  Somebody was like, oh, wait, but you know, like, you know, it's keep thinking, the fork's a great technology, right? And it's persisted.

• 17:48Speaker 00

  Better than chopsticks at salsa.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  I, as somebody who's been raised with chopsticks, I have to agree. Although I think if you're really good at chopsticks, like my mom can like pick up a raw chicken with a pair of chopsticks, so it has its advantages. But I don't think we're in a great situation. Like, I don't think the world is the same as it was 10 or 20 years ago. And so, I want to say like, yeah, like, a lot of things that have persisted are great, and some of the things that are changing are not great.

• 18:15Speaker 00

  Of course. My kids actually saw an ad for this the other day on YouTube, and they asked if we could try it, and we did, we had a lot of fun. Whatnot is a totally different platform for buying stuff. It is a live shopping app. It's really fun, because I think you want to see who's selling you this stuff, you want to see what they have to say about it. Whatnot is where sellers shine and find their people, repeat customers that come back to see your face instead of just a logo. Whatnot is the largest dedicated live shopping platform. Beauty, collectibles, electronics, luxury fashion, even cookies. Sellers are building real thriving businesses. Anyone can sell, your business can be big or small, can be just starting, and people selling on Whatnot sell 10 times more than on other marketplaces, because you're not

• 18:59Speaker 00

  just listing products, you're building real connections with buyers. Whatnot, users spend something like an hour a day on the app. They're not just browsing, they're engaged, they're buying, they're coming back. You go live, you show up products in real time and you turn what you love into real income. Search Whatnot, W H A T N O T, in the App Store. Download and start selling right away. So I have a bunch of traveling I'm doing through the end of the year on Daily Stoic Live Tour. I just got back from San Diego. I like to stay in the places that I'm staying. I like to book places on Airbnb so I can be like a local. I not only do some of my best writing, but I learn about things that I wouldn't have known otherwise. When I was just in San Diego, I took a walk along the water. I bumped into someone who recognized me and they told me about their favorite local bookstore,

• 19:43Speaker 00

  which was like two blocks from where I was staying. And I never would have known about it if it wasn't for that encounter. It was cool to me to think that I have helped facilitate that experience for many, many people coming to Austin over the years. The first house that I bought in Austin, when my wife and I first moved here, we would list it on Airbnb and it helped me make the transition from my corporate life to being a full-time writer. So if you're gonna be away, you should maybe think about listing your place on Airbnb. It can be a great way to earn extra cash while you travel, can offset the cost of your trip, or maybe even go towards whatever you're doing next. You've got travel coming up, check out Airbnb. Your home might be worth more than you think and you can find out how much at Airbnb.com/host. Well, do you know the analogy, like Chesterton's fence?

• 20:28Speaker 00

  Do you know this?

• 20:29Speaker 01

  No, I don't even know who Chesterton, like GK.

• 20:32Speaker 00

  GK?

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Two initials.

• 20:35Speaker 00

  He's one of those people that you see him as quotes, but nobody actually reads it anymore.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 20:39Speaker 00

  Except for like conservatives. He's very popular with the religious conservatives, like the thinking ones. But anyways, there's this, and this is a metaphor that they love. It's called the Chestertonian fence. The idea is like, okay, you walk into a field and there's a fence. And a liberal or progressive or somebody who loves change and the future goes, what is this fence here for? Tear it down.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:01Speaker 00

  And then a conservative goes, no, no, let's find out what this fence is for. Maybe it's for a reason.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe we should keep it the way it was.

• 21:09Speaker 00

  And there's this idea that traditions are solutions to problems we forgot about. And I think that is a similar thing with books or norms are a great example of this, where you're like, you don't remember why we do it this way, but we do it this way because it's bad.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  It was a solution. It is a solution.

• 21:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, and there's so many underlying technologies that we take for granted, because we don't think about them as technology. Like freedom of religion or the separation of church and state is a technology that was designed, not just because it's morally correct, but because we kept murdering each other over distinctions that don't fucking matter.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:47Speaker 00

  And it was impossible to have a society where people's saying, my God is better than your God and my God wants me to kill you and we're the ones that are in control of the church. This was a technology invented, by the way, basically in the United States by, I'm forgetting his name, whoever this is the founder of Rhode Island. He was, because we think about the pilgrims coming to America fleeing religious persecution. Which they did to a degree.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  I remember this from seventh grade social studies.

• 22:16Speaker 00

  But it was to set up a religious hegemony of their own, right? They didn't.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  It was not, it was not in the spirit of tolerance then. It was just like, we're trying to escape.

• 22:24Speaker 00

  It was you are not being tolerant of us.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:27Speaker 00

  But basically like, we have the correct religion and we should be dominant. Like, they wanted to come here and enact of their own religious tyranny over their people. And if you read about the original colonies, like it wasn't fun to be on the wrong side of that thing. There was all these insane punishments and they were super micromanaging everyone's life. But it was, and again, I'm forgetting his name, maybe Roger Brown? The guy who wrote that book, The Great Influenza, whose name I'm also forgetting, wrote an incredible book about this specific founder who we don't, he's like, no, no, no, you can believe whatever you want here in Rhode Island. And that was like, that was, had some basis in English law. But that was the technology that actually allows America to escape this sort of trap

• 23:08Speaker 00

  of sectarian violence and it allows the energy to go like, hey, you manage your own interior, spiritual and religious life. The state is about creating a functional society and the technology of government, not like religious control and about the celebration of God. And so, again, that's a technol, like we kept murdering each other. Like, the idea that like, the police can't arrest and stop you without due process is obviously a moral inalienable right, but it's also a technology that allows innocent people not to be harassed by the state. And it has the, you know, another great example, and there's a whole play about this

• 23:52Speaker 00

  in the ancient Greek world, like the technology of a jury of impartial people deciding a case.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:57Speaker 00

  There's this, this famous cycle of plays about, it goes back to the Trojan War. You have a great Odysseus story in the book, but like, basically.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  We could talk about Odysseus all day long, by the way.

• 24:07Speaker 00

  Agamemnon sacrifices his daughter to win the war. Then he comes home and then his wife and her lover kill him. And then their son kills her. And then he escapes and he finds refuge at the Temple of Apollo. And Athena, he's chased by the Furies, because you're not allowed to kill your mother. He's chased by these angry sort of gods. Anyways, the final play in the trilogy, Orestia, again, I don't know how to pronounce these things, but the final technology in the play is like, they, they're like, let's have a jury of 12 people decide, you know, whether, he's like, I killed her, it was just, and the gods are like, no, you can't do this.

• 24:49Speaker 00

  Anyways, they have this trial and this trial finds that he was in his rights to do this. And this stops the cycle of violence because now he doesn't have to be killed. And so, again, it's like, oh, we have this problem, which is like, you do this and then I have to do this and then your kid has to do this and then, and we can't have a society. And so someone was like, okay, what do we do? And we invent these things. And then, you know, now people will talk vaguely about the rule of law or whatever. But it's like, we invented these things because they were addressing a problem that was holding society back from flourishing.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  Okay, so this may or may not be the right characterization of Ryan Holiday, but like, if you are a modern day Stoic, how do you think about, and you know, I think from our previous conversation, if you recall, like, I don't know a lot about Stoicism. I'm not trained as a philosopher and I don't read philosophy for fun. So I probably have a, you know, like two dimensional cartoon version of Stoicism. But when I wrote this book about the situation, which includes like, modern day technologies, age old technologies, you know, judicial system, freedom of speech, like, the situation is everything. You know, it's like this wooden table and this microphone and, you know, my bottle of water over here. But it's also like, I'm sitting across from Ryan, like, it's also, I'm living in a particular culture.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Norms do or don't exist, the norms that exist are part of my situation. When I think about Stoicism, I think, perhaps wrongly, about like, what you can do to change what's inside you, right? Like your reaction to the situation, your response to the situation, but not the situation itself. So do you agree with my thesis that agency extends to the outside world and that we do have agency over the situation? And what would the Stoics say about this?

• 26:38Speaker 00

  Oh, I totally agree with the premise. I think it all comes, you're saying I'm stoic. I would, I would say it all comes down to the situation, right? Like, it comes down to this, it comes down to the situation. And by that, I mean, have I set myself up to be the person that I want to be in this situation?

• 26:55Speaker 01

  Do the Stoics believe in that though? So maybe, maybe like educate me, right? Because like, I think the, the sort of like cookie, you know, the fortune cookie, like, right? The one liner version of Stoicism, which hopefully we have like, you know, more patience to like, you know, get to like two or three, like, is it, isn't it sort of like, oh, I mean, that's what people say, right? Like, to be stoic is to not complain about the situation, not to worry about whether you're set up, and in fact, to make the best.

• 27:19Speaker 00

  Well, I just think like, okay, there's this famous passage in Mark Schmuss, where he talks about waking up early in the morning and he's like, but it's warmer under the covers. Do I want to get up? Why should I, right? It's like, the debate that everyone has every morning, right? And, and yeah, to a certain degree, it's like, hey, you gotta get your ass out of bed. Do you have the willpower to get your ass out of bed? But I think you don't have to be a genius to.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Is that what happens at the end of his like meditation on that? He's like, and then you have to get out of bed.

• 27:45Speaker 00

  He's basically like, look, you have a job to do. People are depending on you. This is important.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:50Speaker 00

  He's like, like, animals can do it, you can't do it. But I think you zoom out a little bit and you go, okay, but what time did you go to bed last night?

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:58Speaker 00

  And, and so, look, at a certain point, and I think a pro is able to do what they need to do, not perfectly, but regardless of the situation, but then there's another element of being a pro that is like, I'm going to set myself up to bring my best self to this situation. So I, I think it's both. And the idea, like, the Stoics are talking about this 2,000 years ago with, in some ways, like, almost unbelievable understanding of behavioral psychology, but it's intuitive. And the idea that we wouldn't have added to our store of knowledge about this and realize that, hey, it actually does come down to decisions you made before this decision.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  And they would be on board with that, right?

• 28:40Speaker 00

  I think so, of course.

• 28:41Speaker 01

  They couldn't not be, right? Because they were too wise, right? Like, it's sort of like any observer. So have you ever read the William James? I've read much more of William James than the Stoics, but he also writes about getting out of bed on a, on a cold morning. And the way his little passage ends is that you do something other than will yourself, right? So I would call that like box three, if you gave me like the three box model. I'm like, okay, box three is your response. Box two are your thoughts. Box one is the situation. What William James said is that like, instead of just willing yourself, like, get out of bed. In box two, you could think about what you were going to get done that day. Like, he's like, once you start thinking about the things that you need to get done that day, you will want to get out of bed, right? So change your thoughts to change your response, right?

• 29:25Speaker 01

  You don't have to like, just force yourself. And I think to me, I mean, Ryan, I'm not exaggerating when I say that I really only wrote a book about this, which it was 10,000 times harder to write than grit. And the only reason I, well, the major reason I persisted, probably I persisted in part because I'm gritty, but a major reason is like, I don't think there are a lot of books that tell you like, okay, but before you rethink, you know, you're like, why don't you just change the situation? Like, yeah, what time did you go to bed? Or, you know, so many people that I've studied, like, it's very intentional how they've decorated the space of what's within three feet of them. And like, yet the first thing they see when they wake up is, for example, I mean, some people will find this a turnoff, but like, a goal sheet, you know what I mean? Or like a quote.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  And to me, like, that's changing box one, your situation. If you change box one, your situation, that will change box two, your thoughts, and then box three, your response. When Bob Bowman wants to change his box two thoughts to be about the present and not about the future and not about the past, he could say, well, I'll just think that the present is now, you know, the power of now. He could also just have a hard copy of the power of now on his desk so that like, he could just pick it up and, or just, you know, that his eyes will light on it. So like, to me, I, I'm kind of like shocked that there aren't like a thousand books on the situation, but I, I haven't found them.

• 30:47Speaker 00

  No, I think, to me, it all comes back down to this thing that Aristotle said. It kind of just explains everything. So he, he said like, it's wrong to think of the virtues as like a thing you have or don't have. He said, it's like a thing you do or don't do. And then, so he believed everything was trained with.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  It's in the action.

• 31:03Speaker 00

  It's in the action. So it's like courage isn't like, oh, that's a courageous person. It's like, did they take a courageous action right now? Right? Like, it's a verb.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  Courage is inherent in the action taken, not inherent in the person.

• 31:16Speaker 00

  The individual.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:16Speaker 00

  So you're not, it's not, oh, this passed you through your courageous father via the bloodline, or, or like, because you were courageous once, you're courageous forever.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  It must have been iconoclastic at the time, right? Because that was the historical thing, right?

• 31:28Speaker 00

  Yes, totally. But he's saying that they're verbs and not nouns, which I think is the right way to think about it. But that also gives us the idea of training, right? So, so like, are you training for this thing or not?

• 31:38Speaker 01

  Coming back to malleability.

• 31:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's saying like, a brave soldier is not that different than like a talented woodworker or a musician. They just practice this thing. But I think the other thing it sets up is, which, which you're calling situation and situational agency is like, yeah, how did you, did you rest last night? Like, the courage could come down to like, did you have a good breakfast? Because you're drawing on something inside you. And I think, like, to me, I know I am kinder and nicer when I am coming at life from a place of like, I've taken care of myself, than when like, I'm tired, I'm frustrated, everything is a disaster. Like, I have a deeper well to draw from. And so, like, again, you might go like, this person is nice or not nice. You talk about the fundamental attribution bias.

• 32:25Speaker 00

  Like, we go like, oh, I saw that person in that moment. And this Aristotle's point about it's whether you do it or not, but like, you're not only how you acted in that situation, you have a continual, you're always in the situation over and over and over again, and it matters, like, what are you bringing in that situation? Society might say, oh, that person's an asshole because they, they filmed you in one moment having a meltdown at the grocery store. Yeah. But like, actually what matters is like, how you're talking to the next person and the next person and the next. It's like, what matters is the situation in front of you and what resources and willpower are you bringing to it? And have you set yourself up to be that?

• 33:04Speaker 01

  And have you set up? So, so I think what you're saying is that Aristotle was trying to get us not to make the fundamental attribution error, right? And to say, witness one cowardly act and call the man or the woman a coward. And I agree, of course. I, by the way, find myself committing the fundamental attribution error all the time. Even after writing about the fundamental attribution error, right? And, and I think that means that it must be so strong of a bias to say that, you know, when, when my husband, so, you know, I did write quite brutally honestly about my marriage crisis, right?

• 33:46Speaker 01

  And so, this was, by the way, with permission and encouragement from my husband, because I was like, you know, you've written and, and it seems like you have an easier time writing than I do, Ryan. But I was struggling for some personal example that could make clear how imperative it is to not just try harder and, and get nowhere and then try harder still. And my husband says, why don't you write about our marriage crisis? Something I didn't quite elaborate on as much as probably I should have is that when I said to Jason, like, you know, in this incredibly stressful time where we were in a bad situation, and, but I just thought it was like a bad marriage. I was like, oh, you know, this isn't meant to be. And I didn't recognize that the situation was against us.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  And if we changed the situation, I would realize that it was a great marriage, but terrible circumstances. Something that I didn't say enough is that when I told Jason that we should split up or try, or, you know, test out what it would be like to be separated, I think I was committing the fundamental attribution error because my like 100 hour a week, frankly, like, you know, like, like you said, you know, sometimes, you know, your, your best is like, it wasn't, it wasn't a great version of Jason, to be honest, and he was not happy. I projected onto him this kind of like, you're a melancholic person, like, that's who you

• 35:08Speaker 01

  are, like, you are going to be like grinding, but like white knuckled and grimacing and miserable, and that's who you are. And I, I just have come to the realization that I can't be married to that person. But really, what I couldn't see, and again, I probably should have said even, even more than I did, is that I was just assuming that like, that is and was and would always be Jason Duckworth. And the imagination that he asked me to have, I mean, he somehow saw that, well, of course, he was him, so maybe he just wanted to assert. He's like, this, there is a, there is a range. Like, I have, I have many Jason Duckworths.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  And like, if you would just help me and help yourself and like, have some patience, like, like, there is another me that you could be with. And so basically, that fundamental attribution error, you know, having studied it in graduate school, even now, like, having written about it, I find myself like slipping into sort of like, oh, God, that person's incompetent, or like, oh, this person's really like narcissistic and like, but I think I'm just committing the fundamental attribution error again, and basically ignoring how important their situation is.

• 36:19Speaker 00

  No, I think that's a really important piece of marriage advice, and that's what was my favorite part of the book. But the idea of going like, hey, not like, I don't love you, but I don't love this version of you, or I just, I don't want to be married to this version of you for the rest of my life. Like, I just can't do this. Not, I can't do you, I just can't do this forever. I might, and you might even be able to say to them, hey, I can do this for like, another six months. But like, but like, I, this is not what I want of my life, to be with this person who's this way, you know, and going like, if you cannot be that, I'm all about it. It was just, and I know that isn't you, because that's not the person I started with, and I see flashes of it not being that way. Like, it's a different conversation than like, I no longer love you and I love this

• 37:04Speaker 00

  other person over here.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  I just want to give him, I agree with you, and I wish I had agreed with you like earlier, because he really was like, very hard for me to see. You know, there is this like cognitive narrowing that happens when we're stressed and unhappy. And I really think I like, you know, the aperture was like closing to like a pinpoint, and I could only see one way. And I, I do think the imagination, like, what would it be like if we were in a different situation? Like, you know, I, I think that I have to like, write this down on a post. I've actually taken to writing, I was going to get everything made on Etsy, but I couldn't figure out how Etsy worked. So basically, I've been writing quotes down on two by two, you know, Post-it notes, and then just like taping them like at eye level.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  And I feel like I need to, like, install a new little billboard about the, like, just sort of like, you know, it like, the situation is all you can see, if you can see it at all. But to imagine a different situation is really a leap that I think I need to get even better at.

• 38:04Speaker 00

  I think that's interesting because like, you've probably experiences with some of the sports people you've interacted with, is it's like, that's what they're all about. They're about like, let's take this quote, and we're going to put it on a T-shirt. Let's take this quote, we're going to put it on the wall. And there's some, there's some element of it, if you're not in that world, it feels a little like cheesy, or like.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  Very mockable.

• 38:22Speaker 00

  Yes. And, and then you go like, but they're obviously doing it for a re, and it's like, these people are getting paid millions of dollars, they want it more than any, they need a reminder? Like, you tell the story of like, the wolves, which one are you going to? I've seen that on the wall, you're like.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  The good wolf and the bad wolf.

• 38:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, in a locker room, right? Like, and you're like, it's not a real story or anything, I'm sure. Somebody made it, I was probably started as like a chain. Started as a chain email or something. It's, you know, it probably doesn't trace its way back to some classical thinker or something.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  I did try to look it up. I think it is, I think it's like more recent than 1999, but, right? Anyway, the point is, is that it's, yeah.

• 38:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you're just like, oh, but no, they need it over and over and over and over again, even at that level. I've been thinking about this, my wife and I were talking about this with our kids, we're like. Do I have to tell you again? And it's like, yes. Like, if, if Aaron Judge needs to be told it every day and he's getting paid hundreds of millions of dollars.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  The answer is yes.

• 39:17Speaker 00

  Then probably I can tell my nine year old, like, where the shoes go again. Or like, why we don't do X, Y, or Z. Like, they just need more reminders.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  Okay, so, all right, two things. One is the generalizable truth here. I mean, you know, the laws of physics are inescapable. So are the laws of psychology. And one of the laws of psychology is that we are reactive to our situation. You know, you think like, oh, what did you think about all day? Like, you thought about what you wanted to think about? Your attention and your thinking is so much more like bottom up situation. Like, why did you think about coffee? Because somebody had a coffee cup out? Like, why did you think about, you know, this quote from this author? Because that book just happened to be on a desk, right? I mean, obviously, this is how advertising works. I just think the more profound insight is that we think of ourselves as intentional, more or less like top down directive. Like, that's what makes us human.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  And we are much more like dogs and cats, sort of like, you know, reacting to things. So that is, I think, the generalizable truth of the matter. And then in terms of the, like, okay, application of it. I was staying in my friend's house. There were three kids, and these are two very high achieving people. They have very high achieving kids. And I noticed, since I was just like walking around the house, looking for whatever I was looking for, an outlet, that there are quotes, like, not at my eye level, but at kid eye level, right? And they were the kinds of quotes that you would expect to be in a house of, like, very high achieving people. It's because that mental, like, that box too. It's like, I want to be thinking like positive, optimistic thoughts, or I want to be like remembering my values,

• 40:50Speaker 01

  or I want to remember the virtues that I hold most dear. Like, if you want that, frickin' decorate your world. And it's not, um, I know it's mockable, but Ryan, it's not just like athletes. It's CEOs. It's like pastors. It's like moms and dads. I feel like the psychologically wise people do not leave it to their own, like, memory, which is fallible, or their own intention, which is fleeting. They just, like, it's just a common sense thing, right? Like, you know, stores have their hours on the front, like, it's a good technology. So like, the situation is a technology. And I, I, I feel like sometimes people think either or.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  So the, so the message that, you know, our thoughts determine our behavior, I think, has been internalized by modern culture. I think much more than any civilization before us. Like, we recognize that our thoughts shape how we feel and they shape what we, and also that those thoughts are subjective, and also those thoughts are malleable. I don't feel like we've, like, moved upstream enough to say, like, well, where do the thoughts come from? Well, what, what can I do to make those thoughts the thoughts I have?

• 41:59Speaker 00

  Yes, you look at some ruin and they're like, why did they have this statue here? Why was this inscription? They were, in a way, when, when mass culture was harder to communicate, when they couldn't send an inspirational text to their kid or whatever. Right. That the, all the parents had to get together and, and build a statue, or, you know, inscribe in a monument, a poem, right? Like, how, how were they supposed to communicate the ideas and the values of their society? It was in, you know, the frieze on a, on, on an Acropolis or whatever, right? Like, that was there, like, because they, they couldn't watch video on their phone about it, you know?

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Right, which, you know, I have a preference for, like, you know, that which is inscribed in stone over videos. But wait, can I ask you a question? I don't have a tattoo. I feel like I'm like one of only, you know, a few people now in the world who don't have a tattoo. Like, why do you have tattoos? Do you feel like it's basically the same thing? That in some ways, this is like, you know, Angela has two by two, like, you know, post-it notes because she doesn't want to get a tattoo, but like, like, is, are these reminders for you?

• 43:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, these are, I mean, they became book titles because I wrote books about them. But these are the, these are the sort of the main values that I try to live by or build my life on. And they're, they're helpful reminders to see on. I mean, look, I think when I first got them, it was a little, like, every, every, no, no, everything. I'm just saying, everything recedes into the background.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 43:22Speaker 00

  If you've, I mean, I've had them for.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  What do you mean, everything recedes into the background?

• 43:26Speaker 00

  When I first get the, got the tattoo, it was more a visible reminder that it would catch my attention. Now it's like, part of my body in a way that I, maybe catches my attention less.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Hmm, okay, right, right, right. Like, it's, you've habituated a little bit, but not entirely, right? Right, right. And, but that is exactly what, that is, it has to be a reason. I mean, maybe there are other reasons.

• 43:44Speaker 00

  And I think about my office is designed with reminders of the things that I want to see. And my house is designed that way.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  What can I ask you? I'm very curious.

• 43:52Speaker 00

  I'll show it to you before we go. But yeah, I mean, I just think about, you know, what are, what are quotes? What are ideas? Who are people that inspire me? I have like paintings, I have all statues. Every time I do a book about an idea, I try to get some kind of historical memento of that idea.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  Really? To have out, just to like, put yourself like, just to like?

• 44:12Speaker 00

  Just kind of memorialize and then have a physical manifestation of that thing. Because like, obviously, I'm not reading my own book as a reminder of the ideas. So like, for me, it's like, oh, this is, this is that thing that I spent all that time thinking about. And this is evocative of all of that.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Like, what would be an example of that? Now I'm really curious.

• 44:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I did this virtue series. And so I have one kind of like physical reminder of each one. Like, the discipline one, the Serpuro, that was Queen Elizabeth. So I have a signed Andy Warhol print of Queen Elizabeth. That's like up, up the stairs on the way to the office. Then for courage, de Gaulle was the main figure. So I have a free French battle flag that has blood on it. You know, so like, just, it's like, okay, this is the embodiment of everything in that book.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  Okay, so, right, so it's not just, you know, like NFL quarterbacks, right? Like, it's like, it's like anybody who wants, I mean, that, that to me is like the power move. And what are the things about the modern day situation that you worry about? So we talked about, well, constitutional amendments that, like, you and I both think are really important. But like, I mean, do you wake up at night and think about like social media? Like, what are the things that you think? I think there are a lot of macro trends, if you will, where like, if you let them take you where they, like, you're not going to live a happy, meaningful life. So like, what are you worried about?

• 45:28Speaker 00

  The big problem that I see for people is they wake up and they are on their phone before they've even gotten out of bed. And so what happened that night? What texts they got? What news of alerts came in? What emails they got? Like, their mood and the direction of their day is determined by someone or something else. So instead of waking up and going, what do I feel like doing today? What's important to me to do today? What, was I thinking about last night that I want to tackle today? Like, what person do I want to be?

• 45:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:59Speaker 00

  They're like, are you fucking kidding me? You know, like, that's like how they're starting the day.

• 46:03Speaker 01

  And that's their, but those are their thoughts, right? So you pick up your phone, right? That's your situation, and then whatever's on your phone, but you, you don't control, right? Like, it's in your feed. And then, and then, and you're, the thoughts lead to then your response, and then, but, which is like a very path dependent thing.

• 46:17Speaker 00

  From the moment you woke up, instead of being proactive and big picture or what? I think that's a, for me, a huge one. It's like, how are you starting the day? Because I do.

• 46:28Speaker 01

  What do you do?

• 46:29Speaker 00

  Well, no, I was just gonna say, and look, I know the research on it's a little bit, whatever. But like, I do believe we have a finite amount of sort of willpower or focus or whatever. And the idea that you're gonna be frivolous with that in the morning, to me, is a huge mistake.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  Or to just be like foolish, right? I think that would, let's talk about that research. Because I think you're probably, I think that your instinct, that your attention and your, like, free will or whatever, like, your ability to like, you know, I'm going to do this. Like, I think your intuition that it's, it's finite is actually probably grounded, but like, there's some nuance. But let me tell you about some data that I just collected that I haven't even published yet. So Gallup Organization does a poll for me. Uh, we, we, we survey kids 13 to 18, and we also survey at the same time their parents. So I'm like, processing this data from this one question that I asked. When you go to bed, where do you keep your phone?

• 47:25Speaker 01

  Either within arms' reach or in the room, but not within arms' reach, or another room altogether? By the way, there is another category, which is I don't own a phone, but like, nobody checks that off. Like, yeah, who did, even at 13, right? Like, you know, Americans have phones. And by the way, across all socioeconomic levels, like, it is no longer a technology which, which has a socioeconomic gradient. Basically, just everybody has a phone.

• 47:47Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  So at first, I like, look at the teenager data, and I'm like, whoa. Like, something like seven out of 10, like 68% of teenagers, sleep with their phone within arms' reach, right? And then, you know, you allocate, and then I look at the parent data, and it's even more. It's like 75%, like three out of four Americans. Now, many of these adults, I'm sure, like, will tell you they don't have a problem. Like, it's not something that they care about, like, but I think the reality is that it is the last thing they interact with, right? The last thing they see, the last thing they touch, and the last thing that, like, changes their thoughts, right? And then it's the first thing when they wake up. And again, I'm sure a lot of people are like, yeah, but I need to look at my calendar. Like, I check the weather, my alarm.

• 48:27Speaker 00

  You're an emergency room doctor, sure. You know, like, whatever.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  Where do you keep your phone? Like, where do you let your kids keep their phones?

• 48:34Speaker 00

  My kids don't have phones because they're, my oldest is nine, so.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  Oh, wait, they're all younger than I thought. Okay, got it.

• 48:40Speaker 00

  So, so we're not quite there yet.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  Not at phone.

• 48:42Speaker 00

  But my phone is on the other side of the bedroom, because it is my alarm.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 48:47Speaker 00

  But like, I can't touch it. And I have built a practice that I don't check texts or emails until I'm well through the morning.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. If you were on your nightstand, Ryan, right? Like, you could still say, like, I have a habit of like, not checking. And then, you know, but like, it was intentional to put it. Across the room.

• 49:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, of course.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  Right. Okay, got it. So like.

• 49:10Speaker 00

  I try to, I have a book on the bedside table and I try to read a few minutes before bed every night. And I my journals there.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:15Speaker 00

  Cause that's an activity I would like to wind the day up with. I mean, I would find when it was next to the bed, like I might get up and go to the bathroom, like not even trying to check it. But I do, it's like, oh, someone sent me a text from a different time zone. And like, my day is ruined before it's even started. Like I might have got three hours of sleep left.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:35Speaker 00

  But I'm, I'm going back to that sleep in a bad mood, or I'm not even able to go back to sleep because I saw something that I. So yeah, look, the Stoic idea would be like, you should be able to get any news at any time and not be affected by it. And maybe someone.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  Is that the sort of like?

• 49:51Speaker 00

  I think that's the ideal, right?

• 49:52Speaker 01

  Okay, the extreme Stoic.

• 49:53Speaker 00

  The Stoic is trying to be able to handle everything with equilibrium. But there's this other Stoic named Pubilius Cirrus, who said that like, you know, rivers are easiest to cross at their source. And like, to me, it's like, hey, I would rather just avoid.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, right. Like just be smart. To me, it's like Incredible Hulk versus 007, right? Like, yeah, you can be really strong and like, you know, walk through a wall. Or you could be like James Bond and like very cleverly, like make temptation go. So I want to say something about what, you know, this ego depletion, sort of like is self-control limited resource? Like, what about attention? And then also talk about why it is, like, you know, when I say the psychological laws of human nature, you know, the laws of psychology are as ineluctable and as eternal as the laws of physics, like I really mean it. So when you wake up and you're cranky or you, you know, you say something you shouldn't have said, like, you are enacting something. Now, it doesn't mean you all free will, because of course, if you understand the laws, you can act differently and okay.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  But here's what I want to say. I think your intuition that when you do something that requires will, right? And requires attention, that it does feel somehow like it's a limited resource, right? And I guess you're saying that partly because you feel, what is it that like next you have less of it? Or you kind of like, just at that time, it's divided?

• 51:06Speaker 00

  Well, I read this thing that Toni Morrison talked about where she was saying that like, it's very important as a writer that you know when you're at your best, when you're most inspired. And so like, and you have to set your day up around that. So like, for some people, this is three in the morning. And because it's like at the end of the day and for other people, it's whatever.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  For some people, it's a busy coffee shop. For another person, it's like dead quiet in their kitchen.

• 51:31Speaker 00

  You gotta know when you're.

• 51:33Speaker 01

  At your best.

• 51:33Speaker 00

  At your best. And she was saying that for her, she had to do all her writing. There was something about the sunrise that was inspiring and important. She wanted to be writing as the sun rose. And then the other part was she wanted to get all of her writing done before she heard the word mom for the first time.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  Oh, God, I forgot that she was a mother. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 51:52Speaker 00

  I mean, she was a single mother and she had a day job as an editor at Penguin Random House, or then Random House.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  I didn't know that.

• 51:57Speaker 00

  And so like she, to write her novel, she had to.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Squeeze it in effectively. Yeah, yeah.

• 52:01Speaker 00

  You can't squeeze it in after you.

• 52:03Speaker 01

  You can't do it like for her.

• 52:05Speaker 00

  Bottom of the waterfall. It's gonna be at the top of the waterfall.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  Right, right, right. Cross the river at the front, at the front. Yeah.

• 52:09Speaker 00

  Exactly. So, so I think it's like kind of knowing when you're at your best. And I was actually just talking about this with someone this morning. I went running with Alexi Pappas. She's an Olympic runner. And I was talking about how I was asking her if she had the same experience, but like, I found that when I was younger, I could get more out of my worst self. Like, obviously it was always better to be my best self, but like.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  But there was a little like a range. You were like, yeah, I have some give, right?

• 52:34Speaker 00

  I was like, I could get up.

• 52:35Speaker 01

  For running, for example, right?

• 52:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, like I could get up from the, when I was 20, I could get up from the Thanksgiving Day table and just run 10 miles and like be fine. And now it's like, if I eat poorly that morning, you know, or whatever, like now it's, it's just a more finely tuned machine or whatever. And I've just found that like, especially writing, like, I can't do it past a certain time. Or, or it's just, it's not worth doing.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  Can I ask you where you do it?

• 53:02Speaker 00

  In my office here, but I can do it in other places. But again, it's like, I just know it's like to get the quality that I want, the environmental and the situation is more important than it was before.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  Right? There's more range, like sleep, running. I remember like eating a loaf of bread with I think peanut butter and then going for a run in my like early twenties. Right? Everything has to go right for me to like, you know, not have a disaster happen. So this intuition that, you know, yes, we can, you know, do things that are harder, pay attention and you know, like and by the way, it does feel exhausting. So that you're on rock solid research that, that when you do something and you don't want to do it, essentially a lot of the things that we consider to be virtuous are acts of self-control in that they're delayed gratification. Honesty is not always the most rewarding thing in the very, very moment that you're being honest, kindness, generosity and discipline, et cetera.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  But I think the, the key here is that when you are able to change a situation, even in micro ways. So there's a paper that just got accepted. It hasn't been published yet. It's looking at one, two and three seconds of delay. So we're not talking about like delaying gratification for like 10 years, like I'll be healthier. I'll have better relationships and something on the order of like two to four years, right? We're just talking about like seconds, you know, the, the nature of human nature is that we're extremely averse to like any form of delayed gratification. And, and you know, we did this with like website loading, but basically, for example, you take like, people are trying to code and they're on this platform. They're trying to learn, you know, coding and like, if it just takes like one or two seconds longer, like then they just like go off and like do something else.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  And like, don't finish their lesson. So I don't think that says something about like those people being lazy. I think it says something about the nature of things. And I do worry that, you know, we're talking about the situation. I asked you like, what do you think? You're like, oh, well, people pick up their phone and then like, you know, they're off. I do feel like attention and intention are so shaped by the situation that we are increasingly in a culture where like, it's always trying to be grabbed by something or someone. And if you're not counter-cultural, like if you don't say like, okay, because of that, I'm gonna put my phone across the room. Okay, because of that, I'm gonna delete this app. Because of that, I'm going to like, you know, make sure that I spend time with it.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  I'm gonna like make a post-it note or my like, then, then like the, I think there may have been past historical times where we didn't have to do so much work to get situated.

• 55:33Speaker 00

  I think that's right. And I would say we, we have a society that doesn't have a lot of empathy for how hard it is to be other people. Like I was listening to this podcast, Annie Lowry just wrote this book about time tax.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  I don't know it.

• 55:44Speaker 00

  It's just basically saying the way that bureaucracy and inefficiency taxes individuals, particularly poor and lower income people. And she was just talking about like some of these like forms you have to fill out to get like.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  Medicaid.

• 55:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. So the ones that we think everyone deserves are much easier than the ones that we have moral judgments about.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 56:03Speaker 00

  So it's like, okay, if you're a single mother and you're trying to get welfare, because as a society, we judge that person. We, we make it really hard. And I was just thinking, bringing my freshest best self, I have no patience for forms. Imagine, I just tried to imagine like I'm poor, I'm struggling, I'm working with two jobs, I have kids. I can barely get Netflix to work after I put my kids to bed, like let alone having to fill out this complicated form. That it was designed to not be intuitive, to discourage people to do it. And just understanding that like the environmental conditions, like you're talking even about like ser privilege in the book is just not even being aware of how your situation might be different from somebody else's situation. And I don't know, I was just thinking about that.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  So let me ask you this, like, so if empathy extends, not only, so we usually define empathy as like being able to feel what another person feels, right? And, and then there's something that psychologists sometimes take pains to distinguish, which is like perspective taking. And that's like seeing what the other person, but anyway, we get it, like putting yourself in their shoes, right? So, you know, if this book has a thesis, it's like, okay, well then also trying to understand like their box one, right? Like, what is their box one, right? Like, and how could I not commit the fundamental attribution? I'm just curious. I remember having a discussion with Melody Hobson, who's like an investor and like very wise. And it was on the topic of empathy. And she was actually saying, you know, I think that like through fiction and through film, right?

• 57:25Speaker 01

  Like that is where we are able to put ourselves in the shoes of other people. I think that is right. But I, I wonder what your thought is on empathy, because I think you're right about our lack of empathy. I wonder if you have any thoughts about whether that is like a bigger problem today than it was 10 or 20 years ago. And what do you think the limits of empathy are? Like, can you really appreciate? I mean, how far can we go? Like in a visceral way, not just an intellectual way to understand other people's situations?

• 57:56Speaker 00

  Well, I think there's a couple of things there. I think one, yeah, obviously there's some limits to, to empathy. And there's that German word umwelt, like how can you truly understand what it's like to be a bat or a bird or another person?

• 58:08Speaker 01

  Goldfish or whatever. Yeah.

• 58:09Speaker 00

  Really can and probably can only vaguely understand what it's like to be another person from different circumstances. So I think there's some limits there. I think empathy can also be limiting, right? Like if, if all you have is empathy, you can kind of, I've noticed that my wife's much more empathetic than me sometimes. Like, I'll be like, okay, but ultimately you're just letting this person off the hook at some level where you're like, you're paying them to do a thing. And like, it kind of doesn't matter why or how, where they're coming from, like.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  Spend all the time thinking about how they feel and think you're like, okay, but also they didn't do.

• 58:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. And or even with your own kids, you're like, oh, they're having a hard time. This, it's like, okay, but there are rules to society that you've got to figure out how to do. And if, if no one ever holds you accountable to them because they're always thinking about, there can be problems. But I think you have to be a sociopath to look at our society and think our problem is that we're too empathetic. Like Elon, Elon Musk has made this thing. It's like the West has suicidal empathy. We're too empathetic, blah, blah. It's like. No, almost all of our problems in the world are the lack of empathy and a lack of understanding of the conditions.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  What he's saying of society, though, it sounds to me a version arguably of what you're saying about your wife, though, right?

• 59:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, look, it can be a problem.

• 59:23Speaker 01

  Too much compassion or something.

• 59:24Speaker 00

  And I think at an individual level, we can sometimes struggle with that or individual situations.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:30Speaker 00

  But it's like, look, why is Iran acting the way that it is? Sure, but it is also a totalitarian fascist religious state that is insane.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:39Speaker 00

  You can understand why they think what they think and not go like, they're the good guys, you know? Like, you can also understand your own country's problems and responsibilities and, you know, all of that and still go, okay, but.

• 59:54Speaker 01

  And still, it's not acceptable.

• 59:55Speaker 00

  Okay, but.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  Okay, right. You know, I actually wrote a version of this book that actually, you know, much more ink spilled about who I think is like the intellectual proprietor of this model, right? And it's not that he would say he's a monopoly on this, because honestly, Ryan, I know psychology and like every psychologist I know understands that the situation leads to the thoughts and thoughts leads to response. Cognitive therapy, that's like your thoughts leading to response, like behaviorism, that's like the situation, like it's all there. Habit is like situation directly. So it's not provocative, it's not necessarily revolutionary, but James Gross, who's, you know, really, I think the person who deserves credit for this, you know, framework, because it's so simple. The thing that I love about it, and for me, because I only discovered it like halfway

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  through, you know, my career as a psychologist, is that you could take anything, right? Like, let's take, you know, welfare, right? You're like, okay, so, you know, this, this mother is like applying or not applying, you know, she did or didn't get this job. So that's, that is box three, like that's her response, right? And then with some curiosity and hopefully, you know, not too much judgment, although to judge is human, you just have to ask, like, what were the thoughts that led to that? Okay, so that's box two leading to box three, just because there are always thoughts. I mean, for anything we do, what you eat, what you drink, what you say, what you feel. And then just to ask, like, and here's where you overcome the fundamental attribution error. You say, like, instead of just saying, like, well, she's the sort of person who, like,

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  thinks those thoughts, all you're doing is simply saying, like, well, there's another box, like, I have to fill it out. And that is the situation, that is the objective situation, physically and socially. And to me, that like helps to explain so much and it at least gives you a tool, if you will, to overcome what I do agree with you, just like this profound lack of empathy at so many levels.

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• 1:04:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, Ayn Rand wrote this book called The Virtue of Selfishness, and there's this famous exchange with Christopher Hitchens where he's just like, I'm not sure that is a thing that anyone needs help with. Like, like, you know, like, like.

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  By the way, doesn't everybody read Ayn Rand and for like one week, you're like, oh, you know, she's got it all right and I'm going to be Howard Rock.

• 1:04:22Speaker 00

  And then you think about it for five seconds and you go, oh, what would it look like if everyone thought this way?

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  You're like, oh, wait, everyone being like even more selfish than they are. Okay, just kidding, I thought that was a good idea, but yeah, I was like, you know, for a week I was an objectivist. I was like, oh, he was in the back, you know, there's a little thing.

• 1:04:38Speaker 00

  There's an emotional immaturity to the lack of, like, you, you think you've figured it out. It's, oh, the problem is I'm being too caring or whatever. And it's like, that's not the problem. That's not like, that's not the problem. So there's like, I think there's an emotional immaturity there, which actually was something I was going to ask you, because you, in the beginning of the book, you talk about Montaigne, who is fascinating. And he's basically saying that like, in different situations, we act differently and that someone could be courageous in one situation and cowardly in the other. And he's basically saying it all comes down to.

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  Speaking of himself, of course, yes.

• 1:05:07Speaker 00

  Well, that's what I wanted to say, because to me, giving yourself more situational agency or being better at what you're talking about in this book comes down to what his life's work was, which he basically invented, which is like the idea of self-awareness, like the idea of sitting down and thinking about like, what do I think? Why do I think it? Why am I this way? What do I like? What am I trying to be?

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  I would say he invented the essay. I don't know if he invented like self-awareness.

• 1:05:28Speaker 00

  But all other philosophers before Montaigne were like, why is the universe this way? Why are other people this way? They studied human, he was the first one.

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  He studied himself.

• 1:05:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, he basically retires from public life and he's like, what do I know? His, his fundamental question is, what do I know? And then he's like, I think his other questions are sort of like, who am I?

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:05:50Speaker 00

  And what matters to me? And like, that was new ground. Like, he's coming out of the, the Reformation and into the early days of the Renaissance, right? Like, where I guess.

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  You're giving me the historical kind of, like, I've read Montaigne, but actually, I am no student of history.

• 1:06:05Speaker 00

  He's a contemporary of Shakespeare. So it's not, it's a long time ago, right? Like, and he's kind of like, yeah, why, also talking about religious tolerance, this is like where we're figuring out, oh, it's a problem, like, to not be able to have different people believe different things. I guess, I'm just saying, like, I feel like what Montaigne figures out is like that there's a lot of interesting self-exploration you could do as other people are exploring the universe for the first time. I mean, he asked, yeah, he just asked all these really interesting questions.

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  And he's actually exploring the universe within. I mean, he was a world-class psychologist. By the way, have you ever seen, and I haven't seen it in person, but I have seen photos of his, like, of his study in his, his room, like with the quotes, talk about quotes, like.

• 1:06:47Speaker 00

  Lord of the show quotes on the ceiling beams.

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  Yes, and not on two by two Post-it notes, of course, and like, I don't believe that he had tattoos, but like, just engraved into wood, like into the rafters, right? And again, like, you, you think that somebody with the mind of Montaigne would have already memorized these things, but he chose to be able to see them on a daily basis. So the, the essays that I wrote about there, I haven't read, I maybe have read all of them, Montaigne, but I'm not an expert on Montaigne, and he did write a lot of essays, but he wrote several on the idea of the inconstancy of the self, right? That there was a Montaigne, I mean, he particularly was observant of his own anger, right? And there was an angry Michel de Montaigne and a calm Michel de Montaigne. And to me, his insight goes almost all the way where I want it to go.

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  So he gets pretty far and farther than most of us, which he says, we like to think of ourselves as the captain of our ship, but we are carried. We do not go, we are carried, right? Carried by the current. So yes, we have some sense of like, I am the master of my soul, I'm the captain of my feet, but like, really, what ocean are you going to choose to sail on? And like, which current are you going to pick? Because that is going to determine really where you go. The reason I say, Ryan, that he doesn't go far enough is that in all of his writing, I didn't come to a passage where he said, therefore be very intentional about the oceans and so forth. Like, he just was like, you know, the situation is like the ocean current. And I, I just want to say.

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  That, hey man, maybe this is just, you know, I am a student of Marty Seligman. I will never stop believing in agency. I don't see that he's gone enough to like, he's, he's written enough or didn't write that I could see about how you can change a situation.

• 1:08:29Speaker 00

  I think that's right. I mean, it's, it's interesting that he's primarily writing these essays at first. Like, one of his biographies says he's trying to catch himself in the act of thinking. That's what the essays were. He's sort of writing to think. The idea of like, hey, I'm going to write these essays and then publish them. It wasn't really the intention until kind of later.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  Did he publish them in his lifetime?

• 1:08:48Speaker 00

  He does, and then he edits them again, but it was, again, he's writing for other Montanes, right? Like, he's writing for the smartest people in the world. Shakespeare reads them. You know, the king reads them. But like, I do think one of the, the good pressures of commercial publishing, which you and I exist in, is that you don't get to sit in your study and just kind of like whimsically explore ideas. Like, you do have to go all the way. Like, what does this mean? And what are you saying?

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, what are you saying plainly? And also, could you please be helpful, right? So, so maybe you would argue that if he had a larger audience, that he perhaps would have gone farther.

• 1:09:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I think some of the people who have written after him or written about him have, have gotten there in a way that he didn't have to get to. As a person who's also like, there's something about, you know, people go like, whoa, whoa. Because sometimes they'll come out and do things, or I've been courting, they'll be like, would Seneca do this? And it's like, Seneca lived on an estate tended by slaves, okay? Like, he, he, he did not have to think about anyone. There wasn't an audience he was writing to. There wasn't value he was having to provide. There was a, there's just kind of a, an intellectual, this is intellectual for intellectual sakeness to some ancient philosophy and some of that kind of, even Renaissance thinking, like, this is for the elite of the elite. This is for people who know, it's for people like me.

• 1:10:08Speaker 00

  I'm not writing for an audience that is, in a way that Shakespeare was. Shakespeare is like peasants to the queen.

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:16Speaker 00

  Everyone in between.

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:18Speaker 00

  And, and I think.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  Much more Pixar, if you will.

• 1:10:21Speaker 00

  Yes, it has to operate on multiple levels.

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  Like, right, like everyone, okay, but there's something else that's different. I would conjecture, and it's purely conjecture, that situational agency has increased over time. I mean, there, I told you I'm no student of history, but you know, there was a time where, you know, you're a blacksmith because your father was a blacksmith and you're a woman and you have to be the wife of a blacksmith. Like, you know, you can't change where you live because like, you live in this village and it's impossible to get anywhere. Like, okay, so if it's broadly true that situational agency, our ability to change our circumstances, to set us ourselves up for like, the thoughts that we want and the behavior that we want, arguably 400 years ago, there was less of it, right? So maybe that's another reason why he said, like, we do not go, we are carried. But he didn't say, like, oh, but you can like chart your own course, because maybe it was not possible.

• 1:11:08Speaker 00

  No, I think you're, you're totally right. His father maps out his whole life, you know? He's, he has, he has like a Tiger Woods-esque father.

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  Montaigne did?

• 1:11:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, but in a, but he, in a good way, but his father.

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  Maybe like a good Tiger Woods father?

• 1:11:21Speaker 00

  Like, so, do you know Montaigne's life story? There's a book I'm going to give you, but.

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  I mean, I know he's like a nobleman who like retires and then just like writes essays.

• 1:11:28Speaker 00

  Okay, so I'll give you a, a glimpse into it. Why does Montaigne have empathy in a time where there's no empathy? His father believes, is, comes from this rich family. His father sends him from birth to be raised by a peasant family in the village that they own.

• 1:11:43Speaker 01

  To have empathy with.

• 1:11:44Speaker 00

  To grow up around regular people.

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:11:47Speaker 00

  And to have affinity and affection for the people that he would, in the future, be responsible for and have to leave.

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  So his father was unusually wise.

• 1:11:54Speaker 00

  His father, um, yeah, sort of travels in, in, in part of like diplomatic or economics. Or I forget exactly what his dad does, but like, basically is like fascinated with child development. And he basically, Montaigne's childhood is a giant educational experiment. Then, then when he comes home, Montaigne doesn't learn to speak French until he is like seven or eight, because he literally never heard it. After the two years as an infant in this peasant family, he comes home and only Latin is spoken in their household. And so he basically grows up in antiquity, like he grows up in Rome, like they only speak Latin. So he's this expert on Latin because he grew up as if it was a real language and not a dead language.

• 1:12:37Speaker 00

  And so there's all these different other ones, I could bore you with them, but like, he's, he has a weird childhood that is shaped by his father's understanding that like, you're learning and being taught to do things to be of service to other people. It's a very weird childhood.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  It's a very weird childhood, which shapes him, right? I mean, you could maybe define, you know, you write a book and then every hammer is, everything's a nail. But, I mean, you could argue that all of parenting is essentially like shaping and selecting situations, right? Like, what else are you going to do, right? There is no like telepathy, like you cannot like will your child to do something the way you can will your elbow to like, you know, go up or down. So, yeah, it's, you know, and I'm not saying like every parent gets everything right, like, definitely not saying that or that I did. But, but that was his father, right? Like, like that, that was parenting to him. That was being a father to him.

• 1:13:28Speaker 00

  I wanted to go to the thing you said before that though, which is, I think agency is a technology. It is a belief that was not widespread in the ancient world or even until relatively, like, I just think it's interesting.

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  Like, you go to the Iliad and it's like, there's no agency.

• 1:13:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, you have to do this.

• 1:13:44Speaker 01

  The gods.

• 1:13:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, the gods, but also, yeah, as you said, it's like, no, no, my father was a blacksmith, so I have to be a blacksmith. It's in my name, like my name says my profession or I'm. The idea that you could move to another country and just live there, you know, like, all, all the kinds of agency and change that we take for granted today did not exist. And even just the idea, like, that an individual could change the trajectory of history in a positive way, that an institution like slavery could, you could have an opinion that it was bad and then you could make it not exist.

• 1:14:20Speaker 01

  And that you could change it.

• 1:14:21Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  That you could change it.

• 1:14:22Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  So, as a student of Marty Seligman, I have to say that, you know, his last 10 years have been on agency. And it is a way, like, as a psychologist, the only thing he's ever studied, right? So he got his PhD very early, I think something at like 24 or something ungodly. Like, he was a very quick PhD, but also he went to college early. So Marty's been studying agency from day one as a psychologist. And his latest thinking, reflecting the last decade of his work, is that the arc of human history, right? And to the extent that there has been progress, which he argues there has been, right? And some would argue not, but I agree with him, like, you know, you just kept, like, if you look at the really grand sweep and you don't like, think about like little wrinkles here and there.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  This is a much kinder, more peaceful, verdant, you know, right, thoughtful society than we did, you know, 100 years ago, 2,000 years ago, 3,000 years ago. And Marty would argue that it is all agency, that agency is the prime mover of everything. As opposed to, you know, I would just add to it, it's a self fulfilling prophecy. Because if you define agency as the belief that you can change, right? Psychological agency, what's inside your head, situational agency, what's outside your head. The self fulfilling prophecy is that if you don't believe you have agency, of course you make that happen. Because you actually don't make anything happen, right? If you do have agency, it's not that everything always works out, but like, yeah, you, you act.

• 1:15:47Speaker 01

  And then the future is shaped by your actions. So, so that is Marty's, you know, that, I think, you know, Marty's 83. There may be another chapter where like he has another great discovery. But I think he would argue it's like the great discovery of his life, that like, all of human civilization is founded on psychological and situational agency.

• 1:16:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think one of the mistakes we made culturally and academically was getting rid of the great man of history theory.

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  Ah, Marty's a big great man of history proponent.

• 1:16:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, that we explain everything systemically or structurally.

• 1:16:21Speaker 01

  Which makes it like inevitable and like actually diminishes like individual will.

• 1:16:26Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 1:16:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I think we're living in a time where like, you have to just say like, uh, definitely one person can change the world.

• 1:16:33Speaker 00

  Well, and the problem with that, the, the people who debunk the theory is that they will also tell you how all the bad things in the world are the result of a handful of people. Right, it's like, we, we all agree that bad people can make the world worse. And then, and then there's argument about other good people can make the world better.

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  Well, I'm on the side that like, yeah, individuals do shape the world for better and also for worse.

• 1:16:56Speaker 00

  Well, I have so many books I want to show you, so what are you going to go next to it?

• 1:16:58Speaker 01

  Let's do it.