The David Cross Episode

Ryan sits down with comedian and actor David Cross https://www.instagram.com/davidcrossofficial/?hl=en for a conversation that goes just about everywhere. They talk about Stoicism, comedy, politics, free speech, parenting, privilege, entitlement, and more. David Cross https://www.instagram.com/davidcrossofficial/?hl=enis a comedian, actor, writer, and producer best known for co-creating and starring in HBO’s Mr. Show, playing Tobias Fünke on Arrested Development, and his decades-long stand-up career. David’s latest comedy special, The End of the Beginning of The End https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfqMkJwVgmo, is available to watch here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfqMkJwVgmo He also recently teamed up with longtime friend Bob Odenkirk for Bob and David Climb Machu Picchu https://www.imdb.com/title/tt38351005/, a documentary about their 2024 trip on the Inca Trail. David won a Primetime Emmy for his writing on The Ben Stiller Show and has received multiple Emmy and Grammy nominations for his television and comedy work. Follow David | @DavidCrossOfficial https://www.instagram.com/davidcrossofficial/?hl=en 🎟️ DAILY STOIC LIVE https://www.dailystoiclive.com/| Ryan Holiday is coming to a city near you https://www.dailystoiclive.com/! Grab tickets here https://www.dailystoiclive.com/ | https://www.dailystoiclive.com/ 🎥 VIDEO EPISODES https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic/videos| Watch the video episodes on The Daily Stoic YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic/videos: https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic/videos https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic/videos ✉️ FREE STOIC WISDOM https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail | Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail -- Stop online threats before they become real-world attacks. Visit ironwall.com/DAILYSTOIC http://ironwall.com/DAILYSTOIC and request a free Risk Assessment to see exactly how exposed your executives are. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key Stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom into the real world.

• 0:15Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. I guess people think of Stoicism as being very serious, about self-command, about containing emotion. So where does that leave humor? I actually think the Stoics are hilarious. There's a bunch of jokes all throughout Stoics, especially in Marcus Aurelius's writing. I mean, there's even a Stoic who dies of laughter. The joke, sort of one of those, you had to be there. It's funny to hear that Chrysippus died of laughter. So I guess that's funny, too. But my point is, humor and Stoicism, they're certainly not mutually exclusive. And in fact, I think some of the best Stoic observations are funny.

• 0:58Ryan Holiday?

  In any case, a Stoic is not going to go around getting offended, insisting that other people take things very seriously, because, you know, that's focusing on something that's not in your control. And I think humor is a sign of wisdom as well. I have a chapter about this in the Wisdom Book. I've been trying to get my kids into comedy, been listening to stuff, stuff that's a little bit more appropriate to them. Been listening to Jim Gaffigan and Nate Bargazzi, a little Mitch Hedberg here and there. I have not let them listen to today's guest just yet, although they've seen some clips of him from Arrested Development. David Cross is one of the funniest people in the world. He's a comedian, he's an actor, he's a writer,

• 1:40Ryan Holiday?

  best known for co-creating and starring in Mr. Show with Bob and David. He was Tobias on Arrested Development and had a very long career in stand-up, political satire, absurdity, ridiculousness, social criticism, and then just, you know, just straight up funny. And in today's episode, David and I get into a little bit of all that. We talk about comedy, we talk about free speech, talk about political correctness, talk about parenting, and more. And I think I really like this. I loved his new special, The End of the Beginning of the End. You can watch it on the 800 Pound Gorilla Media YouTube channel. He just did this new documentary with Bob Odenkirk, his longtime collaborator and friend,

• 2:23Ryan Holiday?

  Bob and David Climb Machu Picchu, where they climbed the Inca Trail in 2024. He has a whole bit about that also in the special. It's funny, I thought that was one of my favorite parts. David won an Emmy when he was writing on the Ben Stiller Show. His work is great, you're gonna like it. This is funny, Stoicism doesn't have to be super serious. And we will just get into it. You can follow him on all platforms, @DavidCrossOfficial, and do check out his new special. You can watch it for free, as I said, it's great. And let's get into it. There's someone else we both know, Maria Semple.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:59Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. She just wrote a book about Stoicism.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Really?

• 3:03Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, her new novel, which is gonna be huge, because it's Oprah's Book Club pick.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  I loved her first one, I really.

• 3:10Ryan Holiday?

  Bernadette?

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I loved it.

• 3:12Ryan Holiday?

  So this one is, the main character is a Stoic philosopher. And she's a tutor to these two rich kids in New York City. But she was just here a couple of weeks ago.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just saw her, I was in a play, and she and somebody else I know came to the play. Yeah, just saw her, but I hadn't seen her in quite a while.

• 3:33Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  At least 10 years.

• 3:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, you would have known her, I guess, from Arrested Development?

• 3:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think prior to that, because I knew her ex-husband or partner from The Simpsons group. I knew a bunch of people who went over to The Simpsons and wrote kind of around the Mr. Show, after Mr. Show. So just, you know, the same community.

• 3:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah. Anyways, I'll give you a copy, it's really good. But it's, there's not a lot of good novels about Stoic philosophy, so that's interesting.

• 4:05Ryan Holiday?

  How did you come to find any of this stuff?

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Stoicism?

• 4:09Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  I didn't. I mean, it's not something I practice or anything. I know, I have a loose idea of what it is. I know it's something I learned in high school at some point, never really put into practice or anything like that. But it's basically, I could be.

• 4:29Ryan Holiday?

  No, I want to hear it, this is fascinating.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  It's basically, we have no control over external situations.

• 4:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  How we respond to those things is, and the way we respond by not being, I'm thinking of these like corny bumper sticker things, like not letting it get you down.

• 4:53Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  That seems simplistic, but not how you respond and react to those things that you don't have control over. And understanding that and not letting that get you off track too far. Is that something?

• 5:08Ryan Holiday?

  No, no, I think it's very close. And also not letting it make you a bad person. Or, you know, like, it's not just like, how do you not get rattled by stuff? But how do you sort of stay on whatever the path that you're supposed to be on is?

• 5:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 5:23Ryan Holiday?

  Right? Like, how do you? Because obviously, there's the little things, like how do you respond to a heckler or whatever? And then there's also, how do you respond to some kind of personal disaster? Or betrayal?

• 5:34Speaker 01

  Or like a financial change.

• 5:38Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, or just the shitty events that are happening in the world. How do you not let it change you or make you despair? Or make you bitter? Or make you not radicalize you? You know, like, how do you sort of stay on the path? That's what it's kind of all about.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  Okay. All right.

• 5:56Ryan Holiday?

  That's it.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  I believe you.

• 5:58Ryan Holiday?

  Well, it's funny, though, because I was watching your special, and you have the whole thing about, is it possible to be a good slave owner? And there's this opening, so Marcus Aurelius's Meditations is like the famous text in Stoic philosophy.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  Say it again?

• 6:11Ryan Holiday?

  Marcus Aurelius's Meditations, the primary text in Stoic philosophy.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 6:16Ryan Holiday?

  At the beginning of it, this is the Emperor of Rome, and he's sort of like reflecting on his life, you know, what he learned, what went well, what he's proud of. And one of the things he congratulates himself on is that he never laid a hand on any of his slaves. Like, so he's actually doing exactly what you're talking about in the bit. And because, you know, all these things are relative, right? Like, he's looking around, not going.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  It's like the Chris Rock bit about, you know, I hang out with my kids. Like, yeah, that's what you're supposed to do. Don't congratulate yourself for.

• 6:51Ryan Holiday?

  But you do, you look around and you go, well, everyone owns slaves. So the idea of conceiving of a world where that doesn't happen is a huge leap for most people.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:00Ryan Holiday?

  So he's just saying, well, I'm not as bad as these people that are beating them or raping them or murdering them. And it just, it struck me as a very, that even like the wisest people are falling prey to exactly what your bit was about.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, and there is a certain logic to it.

• 7:17Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  And I know, I'm also kind of having fun with the idea that I know that people are going to, it's gonna take a second for the logic to work its way through. It sounds, what you're hearing is slave owner.

• 7:36Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  And the idea that, well, I would have been a good slave owner. You know, the fact that you own slaves is a bad thing.

• 7:46Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  But if you own slaves, there's a way to be a good slave owner.

• 7:50Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  So, and just messing with that, you know, illogic, logic.

• 7:57Ryan Holiday?

  But I do imagine most people, when they think about the past, their first assumption is, well, I just wouldn't have participated. I wouldn't be, I would have been with the good guys.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 8:06Ryan Holiday?

  And the majority of the people were not with the good guys, or it wouldn't have been a majority issue. You know, like, we first, we just conceive ourselves as being exempt as opposed to just participating and behaving more or less like everyone else.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Right. And, you know, it also depends on what era you're going back to.

• 8:27Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  You know, and for a long time, I mean, until, in historic terms, extremely recently, there, it was just a given. That's, I mean, there's a caste system in India, you know? And it's not out-and-out slavery, but it is understood. This is cultural, you know? This is, you have this skin and you're from that family, so you do this. And, you know, that's the idea of people.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  You know, collectively saying this is wrong is relatively recent, you know? And it, you know, we were the last kind of industrialized nation to stop slavery.

• 9:11Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, we had to fight a huge war about it. Like, a lot of people were like, I would literally rather die than live in a world where I don't get to own other people.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:21Ryan Holiday?

  It's nuts. But I think the funny part of the bit is like, on the one level, we were like, yeah, what kind of slave owner would I be? What would I have been? But, but obviously the-

• 9:30Speaker 01

  I have to say, for anybody listening, taken out of context, there's a, there's a contextual-

• 9:36Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Thing. It's like, we keep talking about, oh, this bit that I do about being a good slave owner. And yeah, it's kind of a thing in the bit, but it really is just less than a minute long. And it's contextually a part of a bigger thing.

• 9:51Ryan Holiday?

  No, no, I wanted to get to the bigger thing because I thought it was a fascinating bit. Because to me, the subtext is like, that's, that's obviously the extreme example. You're, you're like, I'm a good person in a bad system. But like, aren't we all good people in bad systems? Or so we think we are? Like, you could, you could apply that to any issue at basically any time. Where you're like, I'm not as bad as the rest of those people.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  I, I mean, sure, in, in theory, I just think with the luxury and ability to, to look back at things in our, in our current situation and people who say, I never would have been a Nazi soldier. Like, well, that's not true. I mean-

• 10:35Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  Maybe you personally, but you can't just say there are people that, I mean, you know, that book Hitler's Willing Executioners, you know, it's all, it's about your neighbors. And we, we see what's happening with ICE. I don't, I don't think we're, you could draw a, you know, direct line. We're not there yet and we're not, hopefully we never will be. But you can certainly see it happening here with the same people who would say, oh, I, I mean, that's where I would draw the line.

• 11:02Ryan Holiday?

  What are you willing to subject another person to if someone's telling you it's okay to do it? We think we wouldn't do horrible things.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:09Ryan Holiday?

  But, but everyone is capable of doing horrible things.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  What, seventies, the 1970s? So not far removed historically. And yeah, the people, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm basically, you know, supporting that idea. Like those experiments told us that the same people would be like, I would never do that.

• 11:27Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  Willingly did it.

• 11:29Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. Or you're like, look, I know you, everyone vaguely knows what happens in factory farms and wouldn't be okay with it. Like, you wouldn't run if you were a farmer. That's not how you would do business, or so you tell yourself. And then you're like, but I am hungry and there's a McDonald's right there, right? And so, so we, we, we have the idea and then historically it's very clean. And then the, just the sort of realities of day to day life, we make a lot of excuses and rationalizations. That's to me, that's what I took from the thing is that like, you like to think that you're different, but you're not that different.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't think that was like a conscious thought that I had. And that actually, that bit, for a while I was trying it because it just occurred to me. I don't know why or how it did, but it did. And I didn't have a context for it and until I attached it to the Machu Picchu Inca Trail thing.

• 12:25Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  And I had done it like three or four times when I was, you know, working out new material. And it did not land the way I wanted it to land. And people weren't comfortable with it and I, and I couldn't really defend it because it wasn't that funny. It was an interesting idea. And then I later found the, and I probably dropped it for a while. And then I found the context to put it in there to make it kind of a flow as one linear idea. And then it worked great.

• 12:55Ryan Holiday?

  Well, and the reason I was relating it to sort of the current day and, and how we sort of are able to rationalize things differently is you, you're talking about the, the sort of Inca Trail and then you, you make a reference to like a World Cup stadiums. Like, we know at some level, this is how these things occur in other country. And then people are like, but I do want to go see, like, before I die, I want to go see a World Cup match.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:18Ryan Holiday?

  Or they're, they're walking around the stadium, they're like, this is nice. And, and they're, it's right beneath the surface.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  I feel like it's, uh, not exactly the same thing, but comparable to recycling. So I recycle pretty much everything. I don't think it has any real effect at all. I mean, when you look at what the Defense Department does, I mean, what, what is my washing my tuna can out and then?

• 13:53Ryan Holiday?

  It's like one airline flight is like 500,000 cans or something. It's like, it's-

• 13:58Speaker 01

  And, and, and what am I doing? What the, what the, and I tell myself, because it's true. Well, at least I'm not contributing to, but even just consuming something that comes in that packaging. I mean, it's, it's a thing that sort of makes you feel better, even though it, it actually makes feel, me feel worse. Cause it just points up the absurdity of the situation we're in and, you know. But look, if everybody had that philosophy, then we'd be okay with everybody recycle, but everybody doesn't. Driving from the airport in Lima, Peru to kind of the city center, and Lima's huge.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  I mean, you have seven miles of just garbage. I mean, just before it gets nicer.

• 14:49Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  And I'm like, what am I doing? Rinsing out my tuna fish can? It doesn't matter. But it does.

• 14:56Ryan Holiday?

  You're stuck on a paper straw.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:58Ryan Holiday?

  And, and you're like-

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Oh, that's, yes, exactly. Paper straw. Okay. Sure, I'll do it. There's a, there's a similarity there, I guess.

• 15:07Ryan Holiday?

  Although like being the kind of person that's like, fuck this, I'm not doing any of it. I don't think that's good for you as a person either.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  No, like the, the, absolutely. The people who find joy and gleefulness in that, I'm sure he had it in Texas, rolling coal, rolling, rolling coal.

• 15:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, where you put the exhaust thing on your car.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  It's a southern, it's like, they did it in the South a bunch where they, and they're,

• 15:32Speaker 01

  that makes them happy and they're all, you know, huh, huh, woo. And they're like, fuck you, uh, you know, hippies or whatever the fuck.

• 15:41Ryan Holiday?

  I'm gonna pollute even, even more.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  So, and that was like a reaction to what they perceived as, you know, don't tell me I can't have a plastic straw.

• 15:50Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. Like the political correctness thing is kind of that too, where it's like, okay, look, it can be obnoxious to like police people and have to be overly sensitive and whatever, right? There's, there's obviously some, some level where that's onerous and obnoxious. The same time, being a dick on purpose is not good for the world. It's also not good for you to be the kind of person that's like, fuck your feelings.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's a bad contribution to humanity.

• 16:16Ryan Holiday?

  Yes. But I also don't think it's good to be that, like, it makes the world worse. But it's, it's good to have like boundaries and rules where you're like, hey, I don't do that because I, like, I care about other people.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would imagine mental health wise, but who knows? I mean, a, a, there, I would imagine those, or a bunch of those people get a sense of well-being and a satisfaction from sticking it to the, and, you know, just an umbrella group, an archetype. Like, um, nobody's gonna tell me what to do. And then you feel good about it maybe. So maybe it is good for them because they're, they sleep better and they're healthier. And they don't, you know, they don't have as many stomach issues, gastro, you know, IBS, whatever. They, you know, they're like, yeah, I fucking rolled some coal. I showed them and that, I did my part.

• 17:06Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, there's something weird about this, like, I'm gonna stick it to the man, but it's like, in this case, the man is people who are mentally handicapped. You know, like you're, like, who are you sticking it to by, by using the R word or whatever? Like the weirdness of like pushing back, but like you're pushing it back against a person who has nothing. They're not the man.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  Well, what about rich retarded people?

• 17:28Speaker 01

  What do you do in that situation?

• 17:29Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  A conundrum.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, the idea of punching down is, is sad and gross to me. You know, the idea of finding joy and making fun of and, and making other people laugh with you at this, you know, marginalized group is just sad.

• 17:50Ryan Holiday?

  Yes. But again, to be empathetic to those people is they, they don't always see, they're not like waking up and they're like, hey, how can I pick on these other people? Cause I-

• 18:00Speaker 01

  No, I think it's a, as you were saying, it's like a reaction to, don't tell me what I can and can't say and freedom of speech. And even if that freedom of speech is an offensive derogatory word or phrase or something. Yeah.

• 18:16Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And, and usually it comes from some kind of insecurity, literally or figuratively. Where you're just uncomfortable. So you're like, how can I lash out? Like my, my kids-

• 18:25Speaker 01

  You know what? I got, I want to stop and interrupt and I don't know. That to me, sounds, it sounds kind of smug and condescending in a way that would make that person go, see, see, see what they think. And I think it's helpful to be careful about not

• 18:51Speaker 01

  kind of doing what they're doing sometimes, which is just a broad brush of, oh, some, you know, liberal, progressive, know it all, you know? Cause I get that a lot. I get that accusation. And I think sometimes it's warranted. I hear myself and I'm serious. I, sometimes I hear myself and I'm like, oh, shut the fuck up.

• 19:12Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  You just sound like a dick. You sound like everyone- You're making it worse. I'm talking to myself now.

• 19:20Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  You know, and I, I think that is a, if we want to truly affect, which, and I agree with all of your positions and philosophy on this. We have to be careful about not engaging in the same kind of thing.

• 19:40Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. Marc Maron's thing about annoying people into fascism is, is very real. But I, what I mean is that most people do not think, most people, when they're punching down, probably aren't saying to themselves, I am punching down. They, in their, in their mind, they are thinking,

• 19:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:58Ryan Holiday?

  this person is a worthy target, or I'm actually attacking this bigger interest that's behind that. Like, I don't think people think they're punching down.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  The latter. I think it's the, the idea that I've experienced. And I'm in standup comedy, so I experience it a lot where there's, and I've been on both sides, where it's like, you know, don't tell me what word I can and can't use. But I think they, most of these folks, it's about, oh, this makes you uncomfortable? Then I'm gonna say it.

• 20:28Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  And it, there's not a whole lot past that. It's a lot of like, don't tell me what I can and can't say, and freedom of speech. And, and I agree, I don't think they see it as punching down. And I don't think they care on a surface level of if it's hurting an individual person.

• 20:48Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  It's more important to them to, oh, it bothers you? You're gonna tell me what I can and can't say? No, you're not.

• 20:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  And, you know.

• 20:58Ryan Holiday?

  I agree. I could, it could come off as condescending. I'm just saying, I feel like as you get older and you experience more, you become less, you're able to question that impulse a little bit more and go, hey, like, I get why I'm having this reaction to it, but I'm gonna decide whether it's worth the cost over here.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. And again, the context is everything, like the slavery thing. Like, here's the logic. That's why I'm saying this, and it's in the context. I can defend that. But there's some times you can't. And if I found that I couldn't, and I knew it was upsetting more than a couple people, like, it's not worth it. I'll drop it.

• 21:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And it'd probably be different if someone was saying like, hey, if you say this, you'll go to jail. Or, you know, like where there would be actually some principle at stake, even if you didn't care that much about it. You're able to just go, hey, as a human being interacting in society, here's, here's how I'm gonna decide to be considered or not. Like, one of the things the Stoics talk about is like, how, like, look, if you're, if you take offense to something, like, you're at fault. Like, somebody said something, and then you're choosing to be hurt by it. That's like one of the Stoic views, which I think at some level is true, right? No, like, no one can make you feel inferior without your consent. Like, you decided to give weight and meaning to those words. I, I agree with that on some level.

• 22:17Ryan Holiday?

  I also, though, in my life, don't go around trying to hurt people's feelings, because I don't give a shit. So like, there's a tension there.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I think there are groups of people who it's easier for one group of people to make another group of people feel bad. I think it's, in a sense, easier for like, a wealthy white guy to say, hey, man, don't let them get you down, than a poor, black, lesbian, you know, whatever. Because they're fighting multiple fronts. And if that rich white guy is saying something, it's easy for somebody to go, hey, man, don't let them get you down.

• 23:03Ryan Holiday?

  Or as you're saying, the thing, it takes, you know, it takes more muscles to frown than smile. Like, that might be literally true from a, like, whoever did that study. But that's not, that's not much solace to someone who just got diagnosed with terminal cancer. And, and like, someone else with terminal cancer might be able to say that to the fellow, uh, diagnosy. But like, you as just a regular, you, you just understand, like, it's not your place to say that. You haven't earned being able to say this to the other person.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  You're gonna sound like a deuce.

• 23:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, of course.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Hey, man, I know cancer's bad. We all, we all got the memo, but listen, cheer, cheer up. Turn that frown upside down.

• 23:47Ryan Holiday?

  Right. Well, like, the, the thing about like dudes walking around telling women to smile. It's like, you don't know what this person just went through. Like, just like, stay in your lane is, is also what we're saying.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Although, I still have this kinda, it doesn't come up that much anymore, but, uh, my wife, who's a pretty active feminist, uh, I think our daughter was, I'm gonna say like, two and a half, maybe? Maybe two, maybe three, maybe? And we were in, um, the TSA line at the airport, and she's, she's in a stroller. And, uh, and my daughter wasn't crying or anything. She was just, he was, so this guy, who worked, you know, at the airport, is like, uh, hey, uh, and whatever he said. It was very cordial and, um, you know, what's your name? And, uh, hey, how about, how about a smile?

• 24:39Speaker 01

  And my wife took that as like, oh, yeah, guy, a man telling a, a woman or a girl to smile. I'm like, honey, he was just being nice to a kid.

• 24:50Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  And she, yeah, she was, she was, that was like a source of contention. And I still, to this day, I'm like, what the fuck is wrong with you? He's just not, it's not a sexist thing.

• 25:02Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 25:02Speaker 01

  Oh, but it is. Oh, it's, you know, the patriarch, she didn't say that, but.

• 25:07Ryan Holiday?

  It's more like an adult baby thing, not a, not a, not a gender thing.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  No, of course, yes. It was, it was, so there's, you know, there's a, a point to all of this, I guess.

• 25:19Ryan Holiday?

  My kids do that, like, they just don't, they just don't participate in any, like, you know, adults are like, hey, like, like, they'll try to shake their hands, and then, you know, like, just.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  How old are your kids?

• 25:30Ryan Holiday?

  A nine and a six-year-old. But they're just like, not interested in making, like, you know, making adults feel good about, like, engaging with them. They just won't, they just like, I don't know you.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:42Ryan Holiday?

  And it's like the sort of polite version of you, as you're like, hey, don't do that. And then, and then the like, oh, yeah, don't, don't humor and engage with complete strange adults who are telling you to do stuff. It's like this mix of like horror and pride at the same time.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. My daughter's nine, does the same thing where, you know, actually, when the examples I'm thinking of are like, people that I know, you know, or, or at least have, she's seen that I think this person is safe. You know, gets enough of information. But that's also shyness, and you should be. And it's, I know exactly what you're saying. I know that thing.

• 26:17Ryan Holiday?

  I'm like, all about, I'm like, you do not.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  I don't wanna shake that guy's hand. I don't know who he is.

• 26:25Ryan Holiday?

  I would, I would like there to be less touching, period, like, among strangers. You don't need to, you don't need to do this. Also, like, I just saw you touch everything in the bathroom. You're actually doing this guy a favor by not shaking his hand.

• 26:42Ryan Holiday?

  You had a funny, another one that I, I watched you talking about the other day, where you were talking about this with your kids, where you're like, you have a rich kid. And how do you, how do you both take care of your kids and then also not spoil them rotten?

• 26:56Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't think I'm, I suppose it's relative, uh, what spoiled is. My daughter would certainly have a different idea than what I do, but she is spoiled. And, and the whole bit is about the resentment I have for how easy she's got it. And I'm, and I do that annoying thing, uh, and I try not to, but like, I can bring it up organically. And it kinda works, and she, she knows, and she'll ask me questions. But, um, yeah, I never had that, and I had to go do this and this. Well, you know, I didn't have a parent at home. We were latchkey kids and blah, blah, blah. And, um, just because she doesn't truly appreciate, but she's also nine.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  But she also has, and we have a nice house. We have a brownstone in Brooklyn. And, uh, it's huge. You know, it's the biggest place I've ever lived in.

• 27:50Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  And it's not huge compared to like Texas huge, but, you know, it's, I also live in Brooklyn. So it's never gonna be that big. But, I mean, most people live in apartments, and all of her friends, you know, are like, live in these like apartment buildings or units in a, in a brownstone. And so she's aware of that. And what I'm trying to do is, is ride the fine line of, I don't wanna say guilt, because that's not the right emotion I want her to have, but it, just the understanding of what she has, what other people don't have.

• 28:27Ryan Holiday?

  This is not normal.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. But we also have a, a fair number of friends who are astoundingly wealthy.

• 28:36Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  And they have multiple homes, and they're friends, going back to before they were crazy wealthy. And, you know, we, we, we're a drop in the bucket to what they have, like, a country estate. And they have a, you know, a triplex in the city, and they have all these, you know, and.

• 28:54Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  And it's crazy. They have a stable, you know? I mean, so it's all relative, and I try to keep that in mind, but, um.

• 29:02Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's like, I'm stressing about, okay, do I have to sit in like, a shitty seat on this airplane? Because we're flying together, because I wanna build character? And then I'm picking you up from school, and the guy behind me is in a Lamborghini? Like, I could probably, you know, like, there is a relative nature to it.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  I do. She travels a lot, you know, because, uh, we do, and my family's.

• 29:21Ryan Holiday?

  Take them with you.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, uh, what was it? Fairly recently, like a year and a half ago, I wanna say, maybe two years ago.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Uh, we were flying, it was a longer flight. Maybe it was going to LA from New York. And somehow we got bumped up. And it wasn't like anything, I didn't use points or anything like that. And it was also one of those newer plane, I think it's an American, American Airlines where they don't have, they don't have business class. It's a newer plane and it's called premium economy. And so it's, it's kind of in between business and comfort plus kind of thing. It's nicer than what we usually get the comfort plus extra six inches. And that's it. That's all, that's all you're getting. That's all I need. We're fine. It's, it's okay.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  And it was just her and I, and we got bumped up somehow. And we were in this premium economy thing, which is nice. It's like business, basically. And from that point on.

• 30:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, that's the new normal.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  That's like, and she gets it, but she, and I told her it was a very special thing. I don't know why, but you know, and, uh, but from that point on, like, um, can we get the, can we? No, we can't. Why? Why? Cause it's expensive and I'm not going to pay for that. And this is, this seat is fine. We're fine, honey. But the other one, they gave us free, whatever. And it's big and no, honey, it's, and so maybe it's a good thing because after that, we still, we're back in comfort plus. And it's like, look, see, this is fine. This is fine.

• 31:02Ryan Holiday?

  When, and probably as a parent, it's like, you're like, I gotta build character, not make them entitled. I don't want them to think life is easy. And it's like, life's hard for everyone.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  Her life is fucking easy. I mean, it is. I know it's, it's tough being a kid, regardless of your station in life and what, where you live. It's, it's, uh, you know, even wealthy kids have difficulty navigating social norms and, you know, kids in their school and there's a, a mean teacher and all that stuff. But, you know, she's, she's, she's doing all right.

• 31:36Ryan Holiday?

  Well, and what I mean is what ultimately shapes you more as a person, the, the handful of perks you get, or just the fact that shit is always happening and it's never the way that you, like, there's this idea, at least that's what I got from my parents. It's like, oh, it builds character. And it's like, is that what builds the character? Is where you're sitting on an airplane or what, what kind of car you're driving?

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Sounds like an excuse, Ryan. That sounds like an excuse to bump yourself up.

• 32:00Ryan Holiday?

  No, but I'm just, what builds character? Is it that? Is it like your access or lack of access to material things? Or is it actually like how they see you going through the world? What kind of person you are?

• 32:13Speaker 01

  I mean, it's both of them. And it's also, uh, it's a lot of stuff. And it's also how you appreciate the, the things. If you think it's normal, if you think you're entitled, if you think, and we've seen plenty of examples, uh, certainly in, in, um, in celebrity and, and whether that's athletics or, uh, uh, you know, actors or singers or whoever, people who come from like, uh, limited means. And then they just, they feel entitled. They haven't had good guidance and they treat people, you know, shitty and they feel entitled. And they don't say please and thank you. And, um, they don't stop to reflect on exactly how this all happened. Why?

• 32:57Speaker 01

  They just think, well, of course I'm, I'm talented.

• 33:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  You know, I'm a really good, you know, at this thing and people love me. And so of course I should bathe in Evian water, you know, or whatever. And, you know, what I'm trying to do is keep her grounded as much as possible. And, but to answer your question, I think it's all of those things. And it really is about understanding and appreciating that stuff for, for what it is.

• 33:27Ryan Holiday?

  I think that the thing that people struggle with is understanding that having money or luxury things or attention or that like, it can be nice, but it doesn't say anything about you as a person. Right? Like, like to have it, but not, um, one become like the normal, like the baseline, like, hey, this is, this is my, this is what I'm expect when I arrive. Or this is, these are the basic levels of accommodations or whatever that I, I feel entitled to. But also that like, I'm sure it's like this with fame or with power. It kind of intermingles with your soul and you go, I am this kind of person who, you know, should be treated this way. I am, I get this because I'm special.

• 34:12Ryan Holiday?

  And if I don't get it, you're depriving me of my specialness. Right? And then so that, it's where it sort of merges with you on like a cellular, a soul level as opposed to, hey, I would rather sit on, sit on a comfortable seat in an airplane than an uncomfortable one. I'd rather, you know, live in a nice house than a not nice house. But the problem is when you think like, what kind of car you drive or how many followers you have or attention you get, has any kind of bearing on your worth as a person? It makes you better than others.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I get that. Sure. I think the best thing, I'm saying this now, I don't, I haven't sat down with a pad of paper and really thought it out. But I think one of, one of the best things about growing up poor, not having those luxury things is, is that when you, and then you do attain them, but when you are in a position where you have to, I mean, this is just the way things are. You have to sleep on this bench.

• 35:12Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 35:12Speaker 01

  You know, uh, it's, it's, you're tired and there isn't a comfortable bed and we're in the middle of nowhere. Whatever the thing is, you just do it without, you may go, eh, that sucks. But that's it. And then you go to sleep.

• 35:25Ryan Holiday?

  You can handle not having.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  You can handle, I think when people say, I think when people say like, oh, they've got a lot of character or this, this builds character. All it means, literally all it means is you don't whine and bitch about certain things.

• 35:40Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  You don't whine and bitch because it's cold or it's hot or this pillow isn't, you know, the, the thread count is, you just don't bitch.

• 35:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 35:48Speaker 01

  You don't cry about it. That's what I think what people mean when they say it builds character. You know, she's got a lot of character. That old lady, she's a, you know, that's what it means. They don't, they don't whine when it's 90 degrees. You just get on with it.

• 36:04Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's funny that we use the word character there because what we actually kind of mean is like resilience or adaptability. Character is like, to me, has like a moral component. Like your ability to sleep on a bench is not like a statement of, of character. Because I mean, there's lots of people who have to sleep on benches for no fault of, I, I wouldn't say that's as, uh, has anything to do with their character. That, that's a, a social injustice that we should, we should rectify.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Meaning, going back to your thing about on the plane, like, oh, it builds character to, to sit. That's what people mean. It means you don't whine about having to sit there later on when you've.

• 36:39Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  You've been at the airport, when you see people fucking flipping out.

• 36:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  And they're yelling at somebody that had nothing to do with it and cannot control the situation and make it better for you. Because this, you know, this dude is going, uh, with his fucking cell phone out and waving it going, I, you know, I, uh, my seat was business and now I'm in the back and yeah, it happens and it sucks. But don't be that person. They, you're yelling at somebody who has, can't not do a thing about it.

• 37:15Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. It's, and sometimes you can even just, you're like, it feels like splitting hairs, but it's like, okay, if the, if the airline fucked up, I get why you're a little upset, but this is a storm. Like, like, this is like, every plane in the entire airport is on the ground because there's a lightning storm.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:30Ryan Holiday?

  And, and you're, you're thinking that if you're just super rude to this person at the computer, they can fix that.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yes, that's a better way to put it. Just, just like, well, sir, it's hailing.

• 37:41Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  And we cannot fly.

• 37:43Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, did you say you really have to get where you're going? I just didn't know.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay. Well, we do have a plane for people like you. Yes.

• 37:51Ryan Holiday?

  Right. But going back even to the punching down to, I do try to remind myself that these, as, as abhorrent as this behavior is, I try to go, I have no idea where this per, like, how many hours this person traveled to get here? How many horrible things have happened to them along the way? What kind of anxiety they're bringing to, I, having had my own share of like, wow, I really wish I'd handled that better. I do try to go, this person, as horrible as they're behaving, is not having a good time. Like something is, is wrong inside this person.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  That's, uh, that's noble that you try to remember that. And that's a good thing. I don't know if I'm, I have done that as much as I should have or could have, but, uh, yeah, it's a, it's a good. But there also is a line that you.

• 38:38Ryan Holiday?

  Of course. I'm not saying it's, it's funny, like with Daily Stoic, like we have a customer service person. And when they like, show me some of the customer service.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  Daily Stoic?

• 38:47Ryan Holiday?

  Daily Stoic is, uh, so it's, it's all about Stoic philosophy that, what we're talking about. And it's a, it's like a daily email. It's social media. It's this podcast, but like, you know, we, we sell stuff and it's funny to see the people who write in to customer service and how fundamentally un-Stoic they are.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:04Ryan Holiday?

  As if, again, they're like, it's like, hey, you're not yelling at a computer. Like this is a person, she sits right over there. And like, I wonder if people have kind of started to assume that just everyone and everything they're dealing with is like a computer bot. So it's okay to yell at them. But it's like, that's a human that you're talking to.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I'm not sure about that. I think they just, it's about venting and it's about, you know, the classic Karen, uh, thing. Yeah, I mean, cause I, you see enough of it. I mean, these, these fucking viral videos of somebody at a McDonald's, you know, like you didn't, you put the wrong sauce and then they're throwing milkshakes at people. It's just awful.

• 39:45Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  You know, uh, road rage?

• 39:48Ryan Holiday?

  Road rage is insane.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  A thing until it was, and then it was like everywhere, you know?

• 39:53Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. But I, like, when I watch some of those videos, not to excuse them, I'm like, this person is having some kind of psychotic break. You know, like this, this person is not well. Like obviously what they're doing is not okay. And then this is obviously gets into things like, hey, maybe it's not a good idea, given a certain percentage of the population is not mentally well, that we should just flood the country with millions of guns. That seems like a, you know, an explosive combination. But sometimes when I'm watching those videos, I'm like, okay, this person who's screaming at someone at Costco and they're in slippers and a robe and they're yelling. And it's like, obviously what they're saying is inexcusable, but like, this person needs to be like medicated. Like this is, this person is not well.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, sometimes, sure, but sometimes I think people are, it's that sense of entitlement. And it's, it's kind of the similar logic of.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  When there's a really long line for something and you're in that line and the thing that you're in line for is, is, let's say the look at a painting.

• 41:01Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  This isn't the best example, but, and you're in that line the entire time going, come on, just move. All right. You've been looking at it for a minute now. Enough. Move on. There's other stuff. That's your process. That's what's going through all the way until you get to like three back. And then you're like, well, I've waited in this line. I'm gonna take my time. You know what I mean? It's that kind of, again, not the best example, but that, that idea of, you know, I am at your store and you're supposed, the customer is always right and da, da, da, da, and the, and these, this, just the sense of entitlement that everybody has in any situation, you know?

• 41:45Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. Yes. The, the, it's my turn to get what's mine.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 41:50Ryan Holiday?

  Uh, or, I mean, we see this with all these, like, nobody paid off my student loan debt or whatever. It's like, okay, but it was a fraction of the, it was a fraction of the amount.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:00Ryan Holiday?

  Whole groups were excluded from attending the college when you went.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  But also, also, also, this will benefit you. This is a thing. I know in your brain, you're like, that's not fair.

• 42:13Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  But this will directly benefit you. If this person has less debt and they, I mean, this is Keynesian economics 101.

• 42:23Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  And then they have, now all of a sudden they have money so that they don't have to work three jobs. They're not tired behind the wheel. Their kids are better adjusted. I mean, it just goes.

• 42:33Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, that one is so weird too, because it's like, it's the people who are mad about how unfair it is are the people who like to say, life's not fair. You know, like, like, yeah, it's kind of not fair. You had to do it and now they're not, but it did, it's not taking anything from you. Like, it's not, it's not.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  But it's actually giving. It will benefit that person.

• 42:54Ryan Holiday?

  Be that as it may, it's them, them getting something that you didn't get is not taking anything from you.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  Right. I understand. Yeah.

• 43:02Ryan Holiday?

  There is that sort of immediate childlike part of us that's like, well, everyone should get the same. It should be fair. And it's like, that's not how it works. Isn't the whole point that the world is supposed to be better for the people that come after us? Like, isn't that what our, one of our main jobs as a human being is, is to like, make things less hard for the people coming after us? Like, that's, I feel like that's kind of the point of a civilized society.

• 43:29Speaker 01

  Right. It's certainly a worthy goal.

• 43:31Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. But I don't know, that, that getting angry about other people getting stuff is a very animating force and sort of always has been.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, especially when it's the government, you know?

• 43:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Particularly when it's the government saying this.

• 43:49Ryan Holiday?

  The special's very, very political. Um, there's, I mean, you opened with the Trump thing and you have some other stuff.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  It's not really. I guess if you're gonna consider the abortion stuff political, I guess it is.

• 44:00Ryan Holiday?

  I would.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. All right. Okay.

• 44:01Ryan Holiday?

  I'm not saying it in a bad way. I admire.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  No, no, I know. I just.

• 44:04Ryan Holiday?

  I'm trying to turn people off.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  I didn't, I didn't take, I didn't take it that way. I just, and I suppose I'm being a little defensive here because I, I have been really careful and worked hard at all, like the last five, six specials, whatever, of delineating, like, so a third and no more than a third of the hour and 15 minutes is quote, political, unquote, or, you know, talks about religious stuff. And then a third, I try to make just really silly, dumb jokes, which I have plenty of. They had nothing to do with anything. They're just dumb jokes. And then a third are anecdotal things. This thing happened and I observed

• 44:46Speaker 01

  this and this is what I think of that. And I often, I think because the political content is, can be kind of sharp.

• 44:54Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  I think I, and I'm just, this is a defensive posture and I, so I apologize for that. But it's just like, people will kind of pigeonhole me as a political comic. And I'm like, I'm not. I'm a comic who does stuff about politics. So that's where that came from and I apologize for.

• 45:09Ryan Holiday?

  No, it's actually what I, what I was gonna bring up because like, it feels like that word doesn't capture what, it's like, you're not like talking about like the marginal tax rate or something. Do you know what I mean? Like, it, it feels weird that we have to say like politics about, you know, what feel to me like basic issues of the social contract and like how, like what's happening in the world. And then people are like, well, why are you being so political? And it's like, well, because I'm alive and I have eyes and I haven't turned my heart off to other human beings and what they're going through. So I feel like I have to say something, but I, I would like not to have to say something because I would like this not to be happening.

• 45:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:52Ryan Holiday?

  But what I was gonna ask is it feels like you make a choice to talk about it, even though you understand at some level, it's gonna upset some people.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. I've never cared about that. Um, and I'm very, you know, I'm, I'm a polarizing figure and I, I know that. And I'm not gonna do anything to, you know, I mean, at this point, the ship has sailed about trying to please everybody and be like a, you know, clean comic who doesn't take sides, you know? But I have no interest in that. And, and I never, ever, not once have I ever thought, hmm, I need to figure out a bit about women's rights in this country. It just occurs to me when I'm reading, thinking, walking down the street, whatever. And then, and then you work on stuff on stage and,

• 46:40Speaker 01

  uh, um, but I do consciously, I will go, this feels, this hour and 10 minutes, 15 minutes feels too, too political.

• 46:53Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  And I need to take some of this stuff and maybe I'll do it in the next special. But, you know, so I do kind of, I guess the reverse where I think, okay, this is too much about this. Let's get, let's have some fun.

• 47:05Ryan Holiday?

  But you also go, hey, you can't just be talking about silly, ridiculous stuff when the world is on fire.

• 47:11Speaker 01

  It just has never worked out that way.

• 47:13Ryan Holiday?

  Interesting.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  There's always.

• 47:15Ryan Holiday?

  There's always too much.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  There's always something.

• 47:17Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 47:17Speaker 01

  To, uh, yeah, it really is about pulling that stuff back going, this is too much. I don't want to do, um, and I, I've always, I prided myself on, and this special doesn't do it so much, but, uh, the, the last, you know, several tours where it's like, I'm, I'm not gonna even get to this stuff until we're 30 minutes in. So if you get upset and you walk out, you know, and that happens, you know, I know that the first 30 minutes were inoffensive, had nothing to do with.

• 47:54Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Religion or politics, or it's a story about whatever, you know, there might be a line here and there, but like, I know you got at least 30 minutes.

• 48:04Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 48:04Speaker 01

  Of entertainment before you went, fuck you, you know?

• 48:09Ryan Holiday?

  And you chose, you chose to do this one not in a sort of theater, the kind of glamorous, maybe like a special that people.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  Can we turn the AC down?

• 48:21Ryan Holiday?

  Warmer or colder?

• 48:23Speaker 01

  Uh, no, uh, sorry, uh, off. Oh, it's gonna heat up real quick.

• 48:26Ryan Holiday?

  No, no, no. The, the, out there, the ceilings are like 20 feet tall.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:30Ryan Holiday?

  But in here, it's small. So like, it's, so like, uh, the AC is very concentrated in this tiny windowless room. So it either gets very cold or very hot in here.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  Right. Right. Well, when it gets hot, I'll ask to.

• 48:41Ryan Holiday?

  No, no, we're, uh.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  I have no character.

• 48:45Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. Growing up in the South, you do get used to just being way too hot or way too cold. It's like, it's never the right one.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  I grew up in Georgia.

• 48:55Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  So, uh, I know that thing, but it, it, the inverse is true when you go like in New York and you have a particularly hard winter and you are bundled up in four layers and then you go into a bar or you go to a restaurant or you go to a movie theater and it's fucking broiling.

• 49:17Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  And now you gotta take everything off and basically strip down your shirt and then you, yeah, you have the kind of similar thing. And then also in the summer, if it's hot.

• 49:28Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  You know, and then you go see a movie and you're freezing. Like, Jesus, guys.

• 49:32Ryan Holiday?

  I don't know how people lived here before. Like, the idea that air conditioning is not that new of, or not that old of an invention is kind of crazy.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:40Ryan Holiday?

  Like it's.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  Oh, and they used to wear wool suits.

• 49:44Ryan Holiday?

  I know.

• 49:44Speaker 01

  It's like, uh, chasidim.

• 49:46Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  You know, like, I, I, you look at those old pictures, uh, you know, New York, Lower East Side.

• 49:53Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  And these guys, you know, it's like 92 degrees.

• 49:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 49:56Speaker 01

  And there's people in these three-piece suits and hats and like, oh God, that's, and it must've stunk.

• 50:04Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 50:05Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 50:06Ryan Holiday?

  I feel like they don't talk about that. Like, and what was the laundry situ, like, these are in many cases, like, poor people. So it's not like they have a closet full of 50 suits and they're rotating them. They're, like, they would wear the same shirt and just change the collar. So like, how disgusting must have everything been? And then they're like riding horses and like, it, it's just disgusting. I don't have any idea how it worked.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, it's that's what they knew.

• 50:31Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  And so.

• 50:32Ryan Holiday?

  It seems normal.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:34Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, man, yeah. I wonder too, if some of the brutality of the world back then was just like, everyone was so uncomfortable and miserable all the time. It was hard to have like a scale of like, what was good.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  Well, there, I lived in London for a couple of years. And, you know, A C newer newer places have them, but like, uh, if you went through any kind of heat wave like we get here, I mean, there's most places don't have A C. That, you know, where people live.

• 51:03Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  And they've got, uh, you know, the fans that they'll plug in, but that only does so much. I mean, it's, it's, it's tough, you know?

• 51:10Ryan Holiday?

  Thousands of people die every year in Europe from, from just the heat. And like that, we, that's obviously going to be one of the consequences of climate change is just like.

• 51:19Speaker 01

  More Europeans dying.

• 51:21Ryan Holiday?

  Well, we just take, it's not an American news story. Like we, we talk like something there, it's actually similar. I could be making this up, but I remember reading an article that was like gun violence versus like heat deaths across Europe are, are fairly similar. Like, so we, we murder a lot of people every year, but like in other countries, they just keel over from, from, from the heat. And like, that would have been just background noise in the world for.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:47Ryan Holiday?

  Hundreds of years that just like, in the summer, sometimes you die from, from, from sweltering in your, in your tenement apartment.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  Have you been to, uh, Phoenix?

• 51:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  So there's a handful of places in the United States where I'm like, why?

• 52:03Ryan Holiday?

  This should not exist.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  What the fuck? And if you go downtown where they have like, uh, um, you know, kind of concentrated corporate, you know, fun town things.

• 52:15Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  And all the, um, like outdoor bars and the sports bars and, and entertainment centers or whatever. When you're downtown in Phoenix, all of them have these things on the outside, uh, on the street that missed you.

• 52:31Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  And that's so you don't die.

• 52:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  Like the city, in order to live there and work there and, and congregate and, and go out to dinner, you have to, you have to be wet by the city. The city has to wet you down because you might die.

• 52:51Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  Why the fuck would you move to that place?

• 52:56Ryan Holiday?

  Right. And the irony too of like, it's hot also because everything is concrete and cement. So it just like, it sucks in the heat and then, and then it like Phoenix, if no one lives there, obviously it's still a desert. But like, nature does a decent job of making that somewhat hospitable because it's like, it's hot during the day, but it's cool in the shade and it's cool at night.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 53:19Ryan Holiday?

  But then modern man comes in and actually makes it this like concrete oven. That's like slowly releasing the heat throughout the day. So it actually is hotter longer. It's, it's madness.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, especially when we know there are measures you can take to rectify that situation.

• 53:39Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  To reverse it.

• 53:40Ryan Holiday?

  But people really like golfing, so that's why.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  Golfing.

• 53:43Ryan Holiday?

  And that's where they do the golf. It makes no, they're like, what is the most water intensive, like green thing we could have? I guess we could put that anywhere in the United States where the climate makes sense. But what if we actually, what if we put them in Palm Desert and, and Arizona? That seems like, that seems like the best place.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  Just that's what we're going to spend our water on.

• 54:05Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. Well, it's like, they're like, there's nothing here. Let's build, and it's like, there's nothing here because it's inhospitable and horrible.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:12Ryan Holiday?

  That's why it's madness.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  Hopefully we'll go to the moon and, uh, build some golf courses up there. That'll be way spread out, won't need this much water. I don't know how we get the water, we'll figure it out.

• 54:25Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, doesn't George Carlin have a thing, he's a golf arrogant game?

• 54:30Speaker 01

  A what?

• 54:30Ryan Holiday?

  An arrogant game. Like, we need all this space for one person to hit this tiny ball. Uh, it is a, it is madness.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 54:38Ryan Holiday?

  You want to see the bookstore?

• 54:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.