Ask Daily Stoic: Austin Kleon

Ryan chats with Austin Kleon, author of great books like Steal Like An Artist. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:05Speaker 00

  Welcome to The Daily Stoic, where each day we read a short passage designed to help you cultivate the strength, insight, wisdom necessary for living the good life. Each one of these passages is based on the 2,000-year-old philosophy that has guided some of history's greatest men and women. For more, you can visit us at dailystoic.com.

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  Hey, everyone. Welcome to another Saturday episode of The Daily Stoic. Really excited about this week's episode because we're doing Ask Daily Stoic with another author, with a great friend of mine, Austin Kleon. Austin Kleon wrote Steal Like an Artist, Keep Going, Show Your Work. He has a Steal Like an Artist journal. Even his poetry is really great. He does these newspaper blackout poems. He's awesome. You can check him out on Instagram, I think it's @AustinKleon. But I thought I would tell a quick, somewhat funny story about Austin. When I first moved to Austin, Texas, I'd always been a big fan of Austin Kleon, and our books had both come out at roughly the same time. This is 2012, 2013. I shot Austin an email, and he said, "Hey, I live right down the street. I'll

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  take you to lunch." And so, we met for lunch at a place that no longer exists in Austin because everything is getting torn down and replaced. But, so, we had lunch. I remember I had meatloaf. I don't remember what Austin had. But then Austin was like, "I'm gonna drive you around and show you the town." And so, we were driving, and I think Austin was going slow, or the person behind him, in front of him, was going slow. Anyways, you know how it goes. Like, somebody honked, somebody flipped another person off, and then road rage ensued, not by Austin, but by this person who was mad at us. So, this person sort of races around us, it honks, and then it sort of disappears. And we think that's gonna be the end of it. And we're driving around Austin, and then we're coming

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  up, this is on Airport Boulevard in Austin. If you know, there's like Long John Silver's, is like sort of MLK, between 12th and MLK on Airport Boulevard. And we're driving, and all of a sudden- And I see out of the corner of the eye, maybe like two or 300 yards up the road, the guy that had been honking at us. And I said, Austin, that's the guy. He's like gone around and is like cutting us off. And Austin's like, no way. That's insane. And I'm like, Austin, he's out of the car. The guy had gotten out of his car, gotten in front of us, gotten out of his car. And I see him reach into his car and I'm like, oh man, this is not going to go well. Is he going to shoot us? Like, what's going to happen? And then he grabs like one of those like 52 ounce

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  giant sodas from 7-Eleven that he had in his car. And he he hurls it and it's, I see it hurtling through the air, not like a perfect spiral, like a football. It's just sort of hurtling through the air. And I'm like, doing the math in my head about like, looking at the trajectory, seeing where it's going. And then it occurs to me that the window of the car is open. And I go, there's no way this could possibly, he can't possibly hit a moving car from that distance with a cup full of soda. That's the craziest thing I ever heard. But sure enough, it's coming and coming and Austin kind of slams on the brakes. And it lands on the hood of the car and the windshield and it just explodes everywhere.

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  And that was my welcome to Austin, Texas by Austin Kleon. It's one of the craziest things I've ever seen in my life, one of the weirdest things in my life. And I think a good reminder of this stoic idea of anger always makes stuff worse. Seneca had this great joke. He said, like, you would never return a bite to a dog or a kick to a mule. And I just, I laugh so hard when I think about this guy, whatever Austin could have possibly done to him, no matter how mad he could have possibly been by this experience of, you know, not liking someone's driving. He literally wildly drove, cut us off, laid in wait, and then threw a giant soda.

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  And he almost, he almost nailed it. I mean, if it hadn't exploded in the car, I mean, it would have been unreal. And yet so preposterous. So sometimes when I get upset, I think about that guy. And I think about him when I'm driving all the time. And I wonder what he's up to. I can't imagine things are going well, uh, cause that does not seem like a personality well suited to this aggravating world that we live in. Um, well, that's my intro for Austin Kleon. I think he did a great job answering these questions and I can't wait for you guys to listen. March 14th, The Daily Stoic, self-deception is our enemy. Zeno would also say that nothing is more hostile to a firm grasp on knowledge than self-deception.

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  Self-deception, delusions of grandeur, these aren't just annoying personality traits. Ego is more than just off-putting and obnoxious. Instead, it's the sworn enemy of our ability to learn and grow. As Epictetus put it, "It is impossible for a person to begin to learn that which she thinks she already knows." "Today, we will be unable to improve, unable to learn, unable to earn the respect of others if we think we're already perfect, a genius admired far and wide." In this sense, ego and self-deception are the enemies of things we wish to have because we delude ourselves into believing we already possess them. So we must meet ego with the hostility and contempt that it insidiously deploys against us

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  to keep it away if only for 24 hours at a time. All right, welcome to this week's episode of Ask Daily Stoic. People send in their questions, [email protected]. And then usually I answer them, but sometimes we have awesome guests. Today's guest is Austin Kleon, one of my favorite writers. If you haven't read Steel Like an Artist, you definitely should. I think it was a profoundly influential book for me as a writer. If you're not a writer or a creative, but you're thinking about this, I think your most philosophical book is the new one, Keep Going, which is like, sort of, how does one find hope and optimism and structure inside the chaos of the modern world?

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  Right.

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  So we've got some questions. So the first question today is from Jim. So he said he's read the Daily Stoic emails, watched the YouTube channel, that he knows the Stoics were big on the practice of journaling. Was journaling their approach to meditation or simply reflecting on their day? What Stoic approaches do they have to improve creativity? So let's start with that with you, because I think that, how does journaling help foster creativity in your practice?

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  I think that what journaling does is it shows you what you're actually thinking. Now, that might sound really weird, but I think a lot of people think that writing is about having an idea. And then putting it down on the page.

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  Sure.

• 6:52Speaker 01

  Where writing is actually about figuring out what you think as you're writing it. So a lot of times when I really sit down and journal in in the free way that I do it, I'll discover things that I didn't know I was thinking about.

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  Sure.

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  And things will come out of me. You know, your brain is working on stuff all the time, but you don't know what it is.

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  Yeah.

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  So when you let your brain kind of speak to the page, then you like sort of see uh what you've got. And that is essentially a creative act in that you're making something new in the world.

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  Yeah.

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  That even you didn't know existed. And so I think it's pretty rare in our lives that we have situations in which we can just kind of let um our kind of subconscious or or our what we're, you know, let things happen, basically. And I think there's a freedom to journaling that you don't even really know the full depths of what you're thinking until you really sit down and and start writing about it.

• 7:54Speaker 00

  I I think that's totally right. And I think if we're tying journaling to Stoicism, one of the things that they're obviously doing is writing things they already know or they've already thought. So there's a repetition to it.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

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  Also, the idea of journaling as like priming the pump as sort of getting yourself going with sort of things like sort of riffing, like in the way if you were sitting down with a guitar to warm up, you would play through scales.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Right.

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  Or you would play through, you know, like the wrists from some of your favorite songs or go through different chord progressions. You're warming up to get to a place where then you can be improvisational or you can be creative. Very few people can just like go from zero to sixty. You have to warm yourself up. And so for me, journaling is like, it's stretching a little bit. It's warming myself up. It's just, it's doing the act of writing, but with no real intention other than for doing it. And then, yeah, sometimes you pop up ideas or I also like, like, one of the reasons, one of we have this in the Daily Stoic Journal is like the idea of prompts, like also giving yourself a question to respond to is is a way to maybe get started.

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  I think that's a big problem for a lot of people is they look at a blank page and they're like, what should I write down?

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  Yeah.

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  And so I think having a prompt, um having like, I I know some writers that it's like, I just, I think it was Lydia Davis. She said like, I just never look at a blank page. That just doesn't happen. So, you know, she'll either. I even find that just writing the date at the top of the page is enough writing to just get me. Okay, I'm in that mode now. I just really believe, as someone who also draws, there's something about the lines that you put down influence what comes next. Like, the lines sort of speak to you and give you new ideas, like just seeing yourself write a word or a sentence then kickstarts something else in your brain. So I think it's really just about the doing.

• 9:51Speaker 00

  Okay, I love that. Alright, so the next question is from Ryan Ling. He says, "My wife and I just had our first son 11 weeks ago. Prior to his son's arrival, he was on track reading, he was mastering new skills, etc. He did our read to lead challenge." I think you know where this is going.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

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  So now that their son is here, it's hard to find time to read and focus and learn while he is reading. Do we have any advice for making time to read or making books stick while he's so sleep deprived? It says, "I don't want to miss time with my son or miss out on reading." I'll go first.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  My advice would be to give yourself a year. I just think the first year of having any kid is kind of a wash. I would say, I'm a big fan of like, what's the one-armed version of what you can do? Like, so like, what can you hold a baby?

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  Yeah, sure.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  And like do?

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  So audiobooks.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  So like audiobooks, I have a buddy who swears by the new AirPods.

• 10:52Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 10:53Speaker 01

  Cause he can just like have that going while he's like with the kid, rocking it.

• 10:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's no cord to get in the way.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  I would also give yourself the excuse to read things that you think might be below your level.

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  Yes.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Like to just, like, one of the things I've been doing that I do at the breakfast table is I read books for kids. So like, I just read a history book that was written for kids in the 30s and it's amazing. It's like, it's a better world history than I've ever read before. But it's technically below my like reader level, but it's what my brain can handle in the morning. But my main advice to new parents is to go eat.

• 11:29Speaker 00

  Easy on yourself. Totally, totally. You you have a much more important thing than reading. And you can learn so much about yourself, about humanity, about biology, from just like actually engaging in this experience that you're in. And don't, you know, don't discredit. You should read whatever you want to read to them. Like, they're not understanding anything that's happening, so just that what they like is your voice. Yeah. So, um, yeah, so read either either read, uh, like, we're just starting to go through, uh, the, uh, children's illustrated classics right now. But but also, yeah, just read whatever you're if you're reading a business book, read the business book out loud. Like, they're not gonna notice.

• 12:12Speaker 00

  So so that's that's definitely one thing I would do. Yeah, take it easy. Sometimes you're gonna be so frightened, you just need to like, relax and veg out in front of the television. Don't feel bad about that at all, I don't think. Although, we just started doing something in the car. I realized it was like, I I was like, I listen to podcasts myself. What I was like, what are so this is for a slightly older than an 11 week old, obviously, but I was like, what could we listen to that would make my kid better? And so I found these old radio recordings of Aesop's fables. Oh, cool. And so like, some of them are real dark. Yeah. I was like, oh, like, people have been learning. This is what we use. We would have sat around the campfire or the fireplace in our log cabin. I know 150 years ago.

• 12:57Speaker 00

  And well, no, not the radio. I would. You'd be reading Hans Christian Andersen, or you'd be reading, you know, Aesop or whatever. Like, so, also just start actively thinking about like, what are the ideas or lessons or morals you want to teach your kids? And you can read those too. So whatever. That's nice. I like that. And and the other question we get a lot related to this, we go like, how what how can I introduce, you know, like Stoicism to my kids? That's the other thing we're starting to think about. It's like, don't baby your kids when it comes to books. Like, just read them the Stoics. Like, like, an eight year old a thousand years ago would have been expected to read Seneca in the original Latin at age eight. You know what I mean? So so like,

• 13:39Speaker 00

  Let them read it. They don't have to understand it, but let them read it or encourage them to read it or read them passages. Like, don't be, I, I think the idea of babying your kids when it comes to books is a self fulfilling prophecy. Like, so we started doing the Aesop's Fables and it's like, he's talking, he's three, a little over three. He's talking to me about, he's at least, I can tell he's at least getting that the animals are up to things. Do you know what I mean?

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Right.

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  And like, so we'll listen to him a hundred times and eventually he'll get it, but like, why not start that? Instead of dumb kids songs.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  I mean, my kids both read now and um, he just, he reads them a lot and you have to make sure that they see you reading and that you have a lot of books in the house, too. Like, I, I find this with parents all the time is that they want their kids to do things that they don't do themselves. Like, how can I get my kid to learn the violin or play the piano? It's like, well, what skill are you practicing? What, what instrument do you practice in front of them?

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  Right. They want to do what you're doing.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

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  And most of the time you're watching TV or typing on your phone.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

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  And then you're surprised that they only want to touch the phone.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  That's what they want to do. I, I was really, um, for a while, we were thinking about homeschooling our kids and we still reserve that option. But um, one of, one of the guys that I got super into when I was reading about that, um, he's a guy named John Holt. And he wrote some really beautiful books in the seventies and eighties. Um, and his big thing about kids is he, he felt that children weren't in the world seeing adults doing real work enough. That they were sort of siloed off at school and that they didn't get to. Now, a lot of us do work that isn't very demonstratable. I mean, we do, we do sit in front of a computer all day, but that's why I think it's so important at home is to have like physical activities that they see you doing.

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  One of the first emails we wrote for Daily Dad, which is the other thing we do other than Daily Stoic, but it was like, let them see you work. Like the work can't, you know, like how they created those cargo cults, like where people would see the planes land, these, you know, indigenous people would see these planes land. They didn't get where it was coming from or whatever. Work can't be this place that you go and disappear to and come home and like, they vaguely understand that it's related to money and related to, you have to bring them into what you're doing. So they learn to love it and they learn to see that it's something that you love and that it's something to be admired and that it's a part of you, not a hidden thing that you do behind closed doors. And I think reading is a great example of

• 16:13Speaker 00

  that. Yeah. If you want them to read, show them day to day, the ROI of reading. Show that it's a place of connection with you. Show that it has a outsized role in your life. Like, don't talk about it, be about it. You know what I mean? And that's the key.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  For me, the hardest thing about parenting is that you have to become the kind of man that you want them to be.

• 16:34Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Like you have to become the kind of human being that you want them to become. And that's the hardest job. For me, that's the hardest part of parenting, honestly.

• 16:44Speaker 00

  That's Marcus Aurelius's thing. We have this print. I have it actually on the way up to my office. I have the original, like the, the actual sort of letterpress metal thing that they made it on. Like, as I think it looks even cooler, but he says, like, let's waste no more time talking about what a good man is. Let's, he says, be one. And I think, yeah, it's like, you can read a million parenting books. You, you get asked for advice from all these, but like, just doing, doing the shit is like the way to do it. Like, you gotta be about it.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  I would also encourage specifically dads. I think a real trap for a man who's starting out as a father is to think about all these things you're going to teach them.

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  Yeah.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  Teach them how to ride a bike, teach them about Marcus Aurelius, I'm gonna teach them how to shoot a basketball, all this stuff.

• 17:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  You are not going to teach them that much. What you are going to do is you're going to set up a world in which they're gonna learn things.

• 17:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  And if you can modify your thoughts in that way, if you can think about, I'm going to create an environment for them. I'm gonna be a model for them in which they can learn to do these things that I want them to learn.

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  Sure.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  It sounds like a small, like, readjustment. It will save you so much heartache to think about yourself as a person who creates spaces in which your kids can learn things versus directly teaching them. Because having a curriculum

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  Yeah.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  and having things that you want to teach people, people learn when they're ready for things. I would encourage other men in particular, because I think women on the whole are better at nurturing and growing what wants to be there. Um, I would just encourage a lot of other men to think about, you're creating a space in which your child will become who they are.

• 18:37Speaker 00

  Well, I think this ties into the craft of writing too, because that's the note you get the most often, right? It's like, show, don't tell.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:43Speaker 00

  You illustrate the story, you actually don't have to put the conclusion on it. It lingers.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:50Speaker 00

  And, and it's actually, when the people feel like they're uncovering it themselves, it's actually more powerful than when you rammed it down their throats.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  If you want to raise a reader.

• 19:00Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Then, growing up in a house in which people read all the time, it's probably a good start, right?

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  Yeah, totally, totally. Alright, so Paul, this is our last question. He's asking me, but I'll be very curious for your text. He's saying, "Do I see myself as a Stoic thinker who has contributed to the school of Stoicism, or a writer motivational speaker who popularized the ancient Stoics' works?" I was rereading Gregory Hayes' translation of Marcus Aurelius recently, and he had this interesting thing where he was like, "If you asked Marcus whether he was a Stoic philosopher, he probably would have said no. He would have said, 'I study philosophy.'" I think going around calling yourself a Stoic, definitely going around calling yourself a philosopher is to like, miss the point, and is pretty douchey, to be perfectly honest. But I think this idea of like, contributing or popularizing,

• 19:49Speaker 00

  that's a topic you tackle really well. So talk about like, how one sort of remixes or works with. You know, great source material.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  Well, I think this is what all writers do. They just maybe aren't as explicit about it as what you're doing with stoicism. I mean, a lot of, if you think about what all artists and writers do is they sort of take who came before them and they just kind of like, they become a mashup of all those people and then they sort of update what they've learned from all those people who came before them to the specific context. So, I mean, it's, I think about this a lot in terms of, you know, when you're a young artist and you're starting out, you might want to be Picasso, but you aren't alive in his context.

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  Sure.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  So you have to kind of like, deconstruct what made him an interesting artist.

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  Right, yeah, you don't live in New York in the 70s, so stop trying to pretend you do.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  So you can't be Andy Warhol.

• 20:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  But like, one of the things you can take from like, like one of my artistic heroes is David Hockney. He's a painter and artist who's worked forever. But one of the things that, instead of like, you know, Hockney did these really interesting experiments with fax machines and copiers and photo printing and stuff like that. One of the things you could, you could be like, oh, I'm gonna do like fax machine art or something. Like when you're younger, you're like, oh, I want to get this, like, I want to do fax machine art, like Hockney or whatever. No, what you need to take is, Hockney engaged with the technologies of his time to try to advance the kind of art he was trying to make. So like, just trying to extrapolate the right lessons from the people you look up to

• 21:34Speaker 01

  and then updating them for the context. That's what all artists do. And I think that what you're doing with stoicism is just a more explicit version of that.

• 21:42Speaker 00

  Oh, I think one of the, one of the things you learn as a writer is that, and I think this is actually a very critical thing in Stoic philosophy too, is like, it's not for me to say whether I'm contributing or not. It's for me to do work that I find interesting and compelling and fulfilling. And by the way, that like, in a way that the market supports, right? Because you, you, I don't admire starving artists. Do you know what I mean? Like, The art's not getting seen. So for me, the job is to write about what I'm interested in and what is resonating and working with a whole host of factors. Whether that makes me a popularizer or, you know, an original, whether that makes me a philosopher or a self-help person or what like

• 22:24Speaker 00

  the labels that other people put on me or I have to always remind myself like, not only are they not mine to say, but are like actually irrelevant and meaningless. What matters to me and what I have to always be focused on is the work, like whether they call you a poet or a author or a an artist or a hack, right? Like whatever they call you, that's not, you don't control that and you gotta like tune that out and just focus on like how you see yourself. And like, there is that debate in writing on, am I, can I call myself a writer? Am I a writer? It's like, I think you primarily answer that question with your work.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  And I think there's these like two schools of thought when it comes to like creative work now, it's like people, there are some people out there who write, you're an artist, just call yourself an artist and then you can make art. I'm the opposite. I'm like, don't worry about being an artist, just make art. And then when you're an artist, you'll know because people will call you an artist. I mean, that, that is my approach to it. I mean, who, who could call themselves an architect?

• 23:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Who hadn't practiced architecture?

• 23:28Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 23:29Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? So, um, yeah. And it comes back down to that, you know, if you want to be the noun, do the verb thing again. Um, but I just think that the other thing that I think is really constrictive about what we're talking about here is nouns are like solid objects. And if you think of yourself as just, like, if I just thought of myself as a poet, would I draw? Would I make comics?

• 23:54Speaker 00

  It's limiting.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  It's, it's very limiting to think of your, so I, that's why I call myself like a writer who draws. That's usually how I describe myself to people.

• 24:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  And that sort of leaves open possibilities, but I never think of myself as like a speaker. Even though that's like how I make a good part of my living.

• 24:15Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Like this speaking is a byproduct.

• 24:17Speaker 00

  It's a verb that you do.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  It's something I do. I speak.

• 24:20Speaker 00

  When I think actually like identity is a real dangerous tricky thing. And so like, yeah, for me, like when people go like, you know, you're at parties. Oh, what do you do? I'm like, I'm a writer. And then I hope the conversation ends there. I don't have to talk to you anymore. And then they go, oh, what do you write? And then I go, books. And then, then like, hopefully they'll leave it there.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:39Speaker 00

  And then like, oh, what do you write about? And I go like, business books and then, or whatever, you know? Like, I did not become a writer to talk about it at dinner parties. It's like, it's, it's almost like a private joy and privilege that I have that I get to do this thing. That's what it is. And then the awkwardness of the labels is almost like a curse that goes with the blessing of the thing. Do you know what I mean? Like, if I could tell people, I used to just tell people like, oh, I'm in marketing. Because like, they would leave me alone and then I don't have to.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  I'd sell you scars.

• 25:09Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Do you need one?

• 25:10Speaker 00

  No. Like Paul Graham has this great essay called Keep Your Identity Small. And he's like, he's like, labels make you stupider. And like, so if you call yourself a poet, you're saying I'm not these other things.

• 25:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:21Speaker 00

  Or I am this thing. It's like, when you call yourself a Republican or a Democrat, you have now limited your ideology to a party. When you should just be like, think what you think, you know? And like, I vote for this party or that party, but I am not that.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:37Speaker 00

  That is like, like, yeah, think about it. If you're like a Cleveland Browns fan, you don't say like, I'm on the Cleveland Browns. You know, like, you're not, I'm a Brown, right? Like, you don't identify, you don't put yourself on the sports team.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:49Speaker 00

  You know, like, and so it's like, I think some distant, it's like, to go to the, back to the questions, like, I see myself as someone who writes about philosophy. Whether a thousand years from now, I am lumped in with philosophers. Or if I'm utterly forgotten, or if I'm just like a person who wrote some books that people read. Like, one, I'll be dead, so I don't give a shit. But two, like, I'll let the work answer that question.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  I couldn't say it better.

• 26:16Speaker 00

  All right, should we, let's close it there? Well, thanks so much. This was really cool.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Fun for me.

• 26:22Speaker 00

  If you guys have more questions, you can write in at info@dailystoic and then definitely check out Austin's stuff. So you're at, are you at Austin Kleon pretty much everywhere?

• 26:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, everywhere. AustinKleon.com, at Austin Kleon on Twitter and Instagram.

• 26:35Speaker 00

  Your Instagram's great. Your drawings are there.

• 26:37Speaker 01

  My drawings are there. My favorite thing I do is my weekly newsletter.

• 26:40Speaker 00

  I was gonna bring this up.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  And that's on my website. Every week I send out a free list of 10 things I think are cool that week. And it's simple and fun. And it's like my favorite thing I do online.

• 26:54Speaker 00

  I love it. I've got it a long time. All right. Thanks, man.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 26:59Speaker 00

  Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app. And if you don't get the Daily Stoic email, go to dailystoic.com/email.