Pod Insights The Daily Stoic | Wondery+ A Stoic's Guide To Looksmaxxing About this episode Looksmaxxing promises to make you more attractive, more confident, and more powerful. But at what point does self-improvement become obsession? In today’s episode, Ryan looks at what the Stoics would say about this viral trend, the dangers of chasing external validation, and what it actually means to become your best self.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Ryan Holiday? Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key Stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom into the real world.
0:15 Ryan Holiday? Look, I wish I didn't have to talk about this, but since a lot of young men follow the Daily Stoic and spend a lot of time on YouTube, I feel like I have to address this word that's all over the internet right now, which is
0:27 Speaker 01 Looks-maxing.
0:28 Ryan Holiday? Looks-maxing.
0:29 Speaker 01 Looks-maxing. Looks-maxing. It's a TikTok trend taking hold of men seeking to maximize their physical appearance.
0:37 Ryan Holiday? And it can be hard to know how real some of these trends are, but this one is real enough and it speaks to something timeless, too. But right now, because of social media, because of algorithms, because of toxic online influencers, young men are particularly obsessed with their looks, their muscles being more attractive, being alpha, being dominant. Some of this is harmless. Some of it's totally fine, whether we're talking about fitness or taking care of your skin, or nutrition, or getting proper rest. But some of it is actively harmful, if not absurd. I think it's worth saying that the Stoics were in no way against improving yourself. We can tell from the statues, they were in good shape. They were handsome. They were strong. They tried to take care of themselves.
1:22 Ryan Holiday? And so that's what we're going to talk about today. Not just what the Stoics would warn us against as far as some of these extreme and dangerous behaviors, but what they would tell us about being beautiful, about attraction, and about being your very best self.
1:41 Ryan Holiday? There's nothing wrong with beauty or being beautiful. But Epictetus said that beauty wasn't in our genetics. It was in our choices. He said, "If your choices are beautiful, then you will be beautiful." Okay, so what does he mean by that? We are the product of our choices. And by that, I think he means that beauty can't be separated from the process, from the regiment that creates it. I think what he's saying here is like, a woman might be stunningly beautiful at first glance, but if those Looks are a result of vanity and self obsession and endless and endless and endless amounts of time primping in the mirror. You actually turn out to be an unattractive person when you get to know her. If your muscles are a result of steroids or neglecting
2:25 Ryan Holiday? your other responsibilities in life, if your physique is a result of starving yourself or actively harming yourself, if you are selfish and fragile and superficial, then you are ugly even if it manifests itself in some kind of temporary physical attractiveness. I was thinking about this this morning. I was supposed to get a haircut. I'd like my hair to look good rather than bad. I'm a little shaggy right now, but I had some other responsibilities that I had to take care of today. And I thought, you know what? Do I want to be rushed around? Do I want to be in a bad mood? Do I want to neglect taking care of this and that? So I can go spend however long sitting in a chair getting my, you know, my hair trimmed? Like, one is much more important than the other. When
3:09 Ryan Holiday? we talk about beauty, we have to think about the process. We have to think about the choices. We have to think about the priorities. And I also just think generally, if you want to be more attractive, make attractive choices, right? Pick up a book instead of a TV remote. Pick up whole food instead of fast food. Journal instead of wasting time on social media. Say no to distractions and temptations and say yes to your children, to your work, to your responsibilities. Every day, we are faced with all sorts of choices. Ugly choices and beautiful choices. Who we are and how we look, literally and figuratively, is predicated on making the right choice between these two things.
3:57 Ryan Holiday? In Discipline is Destiny and also in The Obstacle, we talk a lot about Theodore Roosevelt. Many people don't know that Theodore Roosevelt was born sickly and weak, hence the first 12 years of his life, juggling not just with a bunch of health problems, but with this sense that he was a little weakling. There's this pivotal moment where his father comes to him and says, "Look, you're a bright kid. You have all sorts of potential." But he says, "Your mind isn't enough."
4:26 Ryan Holiday? He says basically that you've got the mind, but you haven't got the body. This little boy looks at his father and says, all right, Dad, I will make my body. You can actually, in New York City, go and see the gym on the porch of his house, where he made his body, where he began his love of what he could call the strenuous life. He became a man's man, he became an outdoorsman, he became a hunter, he became a soldier, he became a war hero because of this work. Now, this was not at all at odds with his love of learning, with his love of reading, with his love of bird watching and science and literature and all of these things. In fact, as his father was pointing out, the two complement each other.
5:11 Ryan Holiday? There's a Latin saying, mens sano, incorpere sano. Strong mind in a strong body. And today, unfortunately, we think of philosophers as weak or academic or theoretical. But Marx realist of boxing and wrestling and running and sports. Socrates is not just a philosopher, but also a soldier who's renowned for his bravery and discipline, also for his ability to endure cold. The philosophers in the ancient world were tough. Epictetus captures this dichotomy well. He's crippled due to torture he undergoes as a slave, but he says, you know, that's only an impediment to part of my body, not to the mind. And he didn't believe his body was weak either.
5:52 Ryan Holiday? He said, I like the body to be strong, the strength that comes from good health and training.
6:03 Ryan Holiday? So it comes down to a question of what are these muscles for? What is all this training for? Is it so you can look absolutely shredded? So you can be what AI apparently thinks Marx realist or Zeneca or whomever look like, like with a 12-pack or something? For the Stoics, fitness and strength was about function. They were trying to keep at fighting weight, not for appearance sake, but because they wanted to preserve their health. The purpose was functionality, not aesthetics. The purpose was certainly. Not so they could catch a glimpse of themselves in the mirror and be really excited. The Stoics did difficult things and picked up heavy things and challenged themselves because
6:46 Ryan Holiday? life was challenging, because life is difficult. Training was a form of exercise, literally and figuratively for them. They wanted to have that strong mind and a strong body because that was the formula for living a good life. That was a way to build discipline and cultivate resilience, to inure themselves against hardship and to maintain that sound body so they could better serve their community and pursue wisdom. And they were hesitant and wary of going overboard, which is always that temptation. Both Marx and Seneca talked about spending too much time on exercise. Marx realized, why are you working so hard to be a better wrestler? Instead of being a better citizen, a better person, a better resource in tight places,
7:31 Ryan Holiday? a better friend, a better forgiver of faults. He was noticing how, in a way, it's easier and more quantifiable to put energy and effort and to see returns from that when it comes to your physical form, when it comes to losing a little weight, or showing a little muscle, or hitting some PR goal. In the end, this isn't what's actually important. This isn't how you measure a life. He was warning himself and us about having our priorities precisely backwards. Epictetus said that it's a bad sign to spend too much time on things relating to the body. He says you can be immoderate even when it comes to exercise,
8:12 Ryan Holiday? just as you can be when it comes to eating and drinking and other sort of primal functions. He said, this stuff should be incidental to our main pursuit. The main strength, the main place to apply ourselves is to our reason. And Seneca said that when it comes to exercises, it should be short and simple. It should tire the body rapidly. It shouldn't take up the main chunk of our day because that time is better spent on other things. He says, whatever you do, come back quickly from body to mind. And Epictetus ultimately makes the best point when it comes to this. He says, don't show me the weights. Don't show me your exercises. He says, show me your shoulders.
8:54 Ryan Holiday? And by that, he doesn't mean, show me how good your shoulders look. He's saying, show me what your shoulders can do. He's like, how much weight can they carry? Like, in the world? Again, getting really strong, being able to set some record in the gym, unless that's your, your job. It's meaningless, right? What matters is can you bear the weight of life? Can you bear the weight of your responsibilities? Can you be a contributing member of society? The idea is get some upper body strength so you can throw your kids around and so you can shovel your neighbor's walk. Develop some endurance so you can endure what life throws at you. That's what this is for. And, and again, ultimately, what's more beautiful? Right? The, the person who has perfect form in the gym or on the field,
9:36 Ryan Holiday? or a person who's fulfilling their purpose, their telos in the actual world as a contributing member to society.
9:48 Ryan Holiday? What strikes me about this trend is how obsessed it is, how predicated it is on impressing other people. It's about getting likes on social media. It's about supposedly attracting the attention of women or men. It's, it's about being able to one up your friends, feel like you're the best guy in the gym, or whatever it is. And of course, this is the exact opposite way that a stoic wants you to think about it. In fact, Epictetus says, whenever you're tempted to look outside yourself for approval, you have compromised your integrity. He says, if you need a witness, be your own. So if you're like, hey, I want to look this way for me, and you're actually being intellectually honest about this? Like, if it's some kind of journey that you are going on for yourself,
10:31 Ryan Holiday? which I understand as a runner, like, I'm not trying to impress you with my times. I'm trying to beat myself with my times and push myself and, and fulfill this commitment I have for myself. I'm not running races. In fact, it's always been the interesting thing for me as a runner. People are always like, so are you going to do this race or that race? What's your mile time? And I go, that's not how I think about this. I think about the day to day-ness of it, meeting my commitments, pushing myself, treating myself. Rigorously, as Seneca says, as a training ground. I remember I was 20 years old, going through Marcus Rilis's meditations. And this thing he said hit me, it hit me so hard. He said, "We all love ourselves more than other people. But for some reason, we care about other people's opinions more than our own." And I think Marcus Rilis, as a more public facing individual than Epictetus, knew this really well.
11:15 Ryan Holiday? Like, he had to be able to be satisfied with who he was, with what he did, and not let the crowd decide, you know, if he was succeeding or failing. He didn't want to listen to them telling him he was awesome. He didn't want to listen to them telling him he was horrible. He had to stay true to his own compass. And this is a hard thing to do, both professionally and personally. Like, maybe you remember as a kid in school, you know, you, you picked out a shirt, or you got a haircut, or you adopted some new style that you really thought was cool. And then you showed up, and then someone made fun of you. And then you were immediately like, "Oh, I don't like that anymore." Like, you, you let other people decide what you liked. There's another philosopher named Rene Girard who talks about this. He calls this mimesis, basically that because we often don't know what we like,
11:59 Ryan Holiday? we just like what other people like, and there's safety and comfort in that. But to the Stoics, that, that sort of finger to the windness was actually a profound weakness. So if you're getting really strong because you want other people to say how strong you are, you have compromised your integrity, the Stoics said. You actually are a weak person. And look, I, I don't want to get into a whole debate about health or not healthy. But I think one of the problems that some corners of the internet have had with the body positivity movement is like, it's just preposterous and incomprehensible to them, that someone could be satisfied that someone could feel good about themselves. They feel so bad about themselves, and their need for approval is so great. It's almost offensive to them that someone isn't as superficial as they are,
12:42 Ryan Holiday? isn't as obsessed with approval as they are, doesn't ascribe to the same body standards as they do.
12:48 Speaker 02 When you wake up every single morning and you take a look in the mirror, you're 100% satisfied with every single thing. Is that what you're talking about?
12:57 Ryan Holiday? Yeah, more or less.
13:00 Speaker 02 Okay, dude. All right, well,
13:04 Speaker 02 if you want to be completely disingenuous, that's fine with me. I guess there's just no point to continue.
13:09 Ryan Holiday? All right. Thank you for your time.
13:11 Speaker 02 Thank you.
13:11 Ryan Holiday? Again, I don't want to get into the health stuff because it's not good to be, say, morbidly obese. But the point is for the Stoics is to have a sense of who you are, have a sense of the race that you are running, to be your own witness and not let other people make you feel good or bad about who you are or how you look. And certainly, I think there's something kind of weird about young dudes trying to get really strong to impress other dudes on the internet. It's an ugly, lame thing, in my view.
13:44 Ryan Holiday? The irony of that voice, that needing approval, the irony is that that voice is so often rooted in ego. Confident people, people of integrity, which is another way of saying wholeness, people who are whole, don't need approval from others, aren't chasing approval from others. But egotistical people are masquerading as confident people and they are desperate for the validation and attention of other people. They are both in love with themselves and hate themselves and desperately craving the love and affection and attention from others. And again, ultimately, ego is profoundly weak. Ego not only overreaches, not only makes things complicated, is not only delusional, but often what ego is, is easily manipulated.
14:27 Ryan Holiday? Right? It's like the compass is so easily messed up with a magnet. And that need to be better than, more than, recognize that insatiableness, the idea that these external accomplishments will finally make you feel good about yourself. Nobody has the power to do that. That's the problem with ego. It's never satiated. It's never gonna feel good. It's not only obnoxious and destructive. Pride not only goeth before the fall, but it's a miserable and it's an insecure existence. And I actually have it tattooed here on my arm as a reminder. Ego is the enemy. Am I doing this out of ego? Or am I doing this because it makes a difference, because it matters, because it makes me better? One thing I notice about all these kids that are obsessed with looks-maxing is how they all have the same haircut.
15:09 Ryan Holiday? They all want the same body. They all post the same videos. They're all the same. It's funny. They're trying to stand out by looking exactly like all of their peers. The Stoics, on the other hand, embraced their weirdness. They stood out, whether it's in Athens or in Rome, whether it's Cato walking around Rome barefoot, or Klyantus proudly doing manual labor, wearing a thin cloak even in the winter. We have Seneca practicing poverty. Marcus Aurelius reading during the Gladiator games. Like, the Stoics were different. They marched to the beat of their own drummer. Basically, what the Stoics knew, and it's so easy to forget this, is that we are all born one in a trillion, one in a trillion trillion. Nothing like you has ever existed before. And then we throw that away by aping the style and
15:53 Ryan Holiday? the approaches of other people by trying to be just like them. And that is not just weak. It's a rejection of an incredible gift that we have been given. There's a Stoic around the time of Nero named Agrippinus. And he said that society is all this giant garment. And he says, most of the threads are white, but that he preferred to be the red thread. He wanted to be the thread that stood out, the bright thread that made the garment beautiful. He says, if I try to blend in, then I will no longer be red. A truly confident person, a truly secure person, a truly strong person, a truly beautiful person is themselves. They like what they like. They are who they are. They let their freak flag fly if they have one. That's what I love about Austin. Keep Austin weird.
16:38 Ryan Holiday? Be yourself. Do what you want to do. Be one of one. That's where the fun is. That's where the value is. That's where you have a monopoly. That's what's truly special. That's what makes you stand out.
16:57 Ryan Holiday? I don't know if you know this guy, Brian Johnson. I actually first met Brian. He was actually one of the first clients of my marketing company more than 15 years ago. He was a little less weird then. I have no problem with him being weird. I just have a problem with the delusion and the ego of trying to or even wanting to live forever. It's just the antithesis of Stoic philosophy. I mean, first off, if you are taking blood from your child to rejuvenate yourself, there's a horrible metaphor in that, I think, right? Like, we are supposed to be providing for the young, not literally leeching from them. And as far as immortality, I mean, people have been chasing this for as long as there have been people, and you know where all those people ended up? They're all fucking dead. Memento mori, it is the one prophecy that never fails.
17:42 Ryan Holiday? When we were all born, we were born with a terminal diagnosis. Now, again, is it good to be healthy? Of course. Should you take care of yourself? Yes. Should you avoid bad habits and pursue good habits? Eat healthy, workout? Want to be healthy? Yes, of course. But if you look like a walking corpse because you are pursuing immortality, I don't know what to say to you. I, you're being ridiculous. And I was giving a talk a couple of years ago at a longevity conference. And I said, guys, I get that you all want to live forever, and it's good. I want to live as long as it's possible for me to live. But I said, what are you guys planning to do with all this extra time? Going to spend more of it on your phone? You're going to spend more of it going to these stupid conferences? You're going to spend more of it fighting on the internet? You're going to spend more of it looks maxing?
18:24 Ryan Holiday? I mean, it is funny that people who use their time the worst seem to be most intent on getting more and more of it. Seneca talked about elderly people who, who all they have to show for their age is a number of years, like, like, all they have is this number, not anything concrete or meaningful. And he also said, it's precisely wrong, think of death as this thing in the future that you are trying to avoid, or that we are moving slowly towards. He said, death isn't then, death is now. He said, the time that passes belongs to death. He wanted us to understand that we are dying every minute, and we are dying every day. Time that has passed is dead. We will never get it back.
19:08 Ryan Holiday? And so, the time people spend frivolously chasing vanity, logging on the internet, chasing followers and fans and, you know, compliments, this is silly. It is, it is, you are paying for that with this thing which you are supposedly saying is so precious to you, your life. So the Stoics want us To remember, yes, of course, health is important. Function is important. Death is bad in the sense that we should try to resist it as much as possible. And yet, it follows us everywhere. It is the only thing that is truly invincible, that is truly undefeated. And that we must live immediately, as Seneca says. We must live while we can. We must be good while we can.
19:51 Ryan Holiday? We must be beautiful while we can. And we must seize what actually belongs to us, which is our uniqueness, which is our character, which is, as the Stoics would say, our ability to choose well.
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