Robert Greene & Ryan Holiday: The Secret To A Great Apprenticeship

Twenty years ago, Robert Greene took a chance on a young college dropout named Ryan Holiday. In this episode, Ryan sits down with Robert, bestselling author of The 48 Laws of Power https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/48-laws-of-power-signed?_pos=4&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r, Mastery https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/mastery-signed-by-robert-greene?_pos=3&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r, The Laws of Human Nature https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/laws-of-human-nature-copy?_pos=2&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r, and his new book The Law of the Sublime https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/the-law-of-the-sublime?_pos=13&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r, to reflect on the power of apprenticeship, the lessons that shaped his career, the mistakes that nearly derailed it, and what it takes to learn from someone great. Preorder The Law of the Sublime by Robert Greene https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/the-law-of-the-sublime?_pos=13&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r | https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/the-law-of-the-sublime?_pos=13&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/the-law-of-the-sublime?_pos=13&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r Grab signed copies of Robert Greene’s books at The Painted Porch: The 48 Laws of Power https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/48-laws-of-power-signed?_pos=4&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r | https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/48-laws-of-power-signed?_pos=4&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/48-laws-of-power-signed?_pos=4&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r The Laws of Human Nature https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/laws-of-human-nature-copy?_pos=2&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r | https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/laws-of-human-nature-copy?_pos=2&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/laws-of-human-nature-copy?_pos=2&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r Mastery https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/mastery-signed-by-robert-greene?_pos=3&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r | https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/mastery-signed-by-robert-greene?_pos=3&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/mastery-signed-by-robert-greene?_pos=3&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r The 33 Strategies of War https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/33-strategies-of-war-signed-by-robert-greene?_pos=5&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r | https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/33-strategies-of-war-signed-by-robert-greene?_pos=5&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/33-strategies-of-war-signed-by-robert-greene?_pos=5&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r The Art of Seduction https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/art-of-seduction-signed-by-robert-greene?_pos=6&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r | https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/art-of-seduction-signed-by-robert-greene?_pos=6&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/art-of-seduction-signed-by-robert-greene?_pos=6&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r The Daily Laws: 366 Meditations on Power, Seduction, Mastery, Strategy, and Human Nature https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/the-daily-laws-366-meditations-on-power-seduction-mastery-strategy-and-human-nature-copy?_pos=7&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r | https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/the-daily-laws-366-meditations-on-power-seduction-mastery-strategy-and-human-nature-copy?_pos=7&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/the-daily-laws-366-meditations-on-power-seduction-mastery-strategy-and-human-nature-copy?_pos=7&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r The 50th Law https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/50th-law-signed-by-robert-greene?_pos=10&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r | https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/50th-law-signed-by-robert-greene?_pos=10&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/50th-law-signed-by-robert-greene?_pos=10&_sid=e0d7a8c03&_ss=r Follow Robert Greene Instagram https://www.instagram.com/robertgreeneofficial/?hl=en | https://www.instagram.com/robertgreeneofficial/?hl=en X https://x.com/RobertGreene | https://x.com/RobertGreene YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@RobertGreeneOfficial | https://www.youtube.com/@RobertGreeneOfficial 🎟️https://www.dailystoiclive.com/DAILY STOIC LIVE https://www.dailystoiclive.com/| Ryan Holiday is coming to a city near you https://www.dailystoiclive.com/! Grab tickets here https://www.dailystoiclive.com/ | https://www.dailystoiclive.com/ 🎙️AD-FREE https://dailystoic.supercast.com/| Support the podcast and go deeper into Stoicism by subscribing toThe Daily Stoic Premium https://dailystoic.supercast.com/ - unlock ad-free listening, early access, and bonus content:https://dailystoic.supercast.com/ ✉️ FREE STOIC WISDOM https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail | Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email athttps://dailystoic.com/dailyemail -- Stop online threats before they become real-world attacks. Visit ironwall.com/DAILYSTOIC and request a free Risk Assessment to see exactly how exposed your executives are. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  So I have a bunch of traveling I'm doing through the end of the year on Daily Stoic Live Tour. I just got back from San Diego. I like to stay in the places that I'm staying. I like to book places on Airbnb so I can be like a local. I not only do some of my best writing, but I learn about things that I wouldn't have known otherwise. When I was just in San Diego, I took a walk along the water. I bumped into someone who recognized me and they told me about their favorite local bookstore, which was like two blocks from where I was staying. And I never would have known about it if it wasn't for that encounter. It was cool to me to think that I have helped facilitate that experience for many, many people coming to Austin over the years. The first house that I bought in Austin, when my wife and I first moved here, we would list it on Airbnb and it helped me make the transition from my corporate life to being a full-time writer.

• 0:45Speaker 00

  So if you're gonna be away, you should maybe think about listing your place on Airbnb. It can be a great way to earn extra cash while you travel, can offset the cost of your trip, or maybe even go towards whatever you're doing next. If you've got travel coming up, check out Airbnb. Your home might be worth more than you think and you can find out how much at Airbnb.com/host. When I first met Robert Green, I was soon to be college dropout. I had not done anything. I was nobody. I had no idea what lay ahead. But he saw something in me. He gave me a shot. He hired me as a research assistant. I started just transcribing little interviews for him for a book that he was working on. And that changed the course of my life.

• 1:28Speaker 00

  You would not be listening to this podcast. I would not have written these books. I don't know where I would have ended up, but it wouldn't have been here without Robert Green. That's the power of an apprenticeship. That's the power of a great mentor. That's the power of somebody who opens doors. And so in this episode, Robert and I are gonna tell that story. And I had a bunch of questions for him. Now 20 years removed from our first encounter, I wanted to know what he saw in me, what I did well, what I could have done better. I want to show you how an apprenticeship works, what you learn from it. Robert was here at the bookstore because he has a new book coming out, The Law of the Sublime. It's an incredible book. Let's get into it.

• 2:12Speaker 00

  I have been curious, why did you give me a chance? What did you see?

• 2:15Robert Greene?

  Well, you were very eager. You were very young and you were very excited. And I'm pretty bad with hiring people. I make a lot of mistakes. But I try people and I give them a short leash. Like I hired these researchers for the war book. They were terrible and I fired them very quickly. So you were on a short leash and I needed somebody, I guess for the 50th law. But you seemed, I don't know, probably something, I'm a little bit intuitive about people's non-verbals. Maybe I just sensed somebody who was serious. Cause a lot of people kind of pretend to be serious.

• 2:59Robert Greene?

  They're just after the glory or the fame or their ego. You seemed something a little, I don't know what it was. I can't remember. But for some reason, I trusted you more than some of these other flakes that try and.

• 3:12Speaker 00

  Well, I'm interested in that because it's becoming a much more precious commodity. Like, so one of the things they're talking about with AI is that it's gonna get rid of a lot of entry-level positions. But entry-level positions are how you learn how to do things. It's how you build relationships and you build experience and you build just, you just spend hundreds, thousands of hours observing how people work. You're inside organizations, you learn the skills. And so, you know, there's just gonna be less of that. If interns do pretty mediocre work, AI is good at being mediocre. And so people who do get those jobs, like a trial or an internship or an assistant job, it becomes imperative not to fuck it up in the 2026.

• 3:56Speaker 00

  Because they're not like buses. There's not another one coming around.

• 4:01Robert Greene?

  Yeah, I mean, like, what would have happened if AI existed in 2006? Would I have just hired, not hired, would I just use that for my research?

• 4:10Speaker 00

  Well, the first thing you had me do was transcribe interviews. And so, I mean, I don't know about you, but I don't transcribe my interviews anymore. I have them transcribed by AI. So that's an entry-level thing that's gone. And I remember, cause during the mastery one, you asked me if there was a, you were like, I don't want you to transcribe these interviews anymore. You're like, you were very nice. You're like, your time's too valuable now. But you're like, is there a way this can be done digitally? And I remember there was either you could like outsource it to like a foreign country or there was a tech. But I remember that that was when I started to see that transition. So I remember even thinking then, oh, this entry-level work, which was so formative to me because I got to listen to hundreds of hours of you interviewing these people who I,

• 4:55Speaker 00

  they would never talk to me. So I not only learned what they had to say, but I got to watch how you interviewed people. But so that's going away. So people have to find other ways to get their foot in the door. But when you think about somebody who, because obviously such a central part of mastery is that like apprenticeship. What's the advice you give people to not fuck up an apprenticeship?

• 5:16Robert Greene?

  First of all, you have to, it has to be the right apprenticeship, right? You have to be emotionally engaged. But your job is not about your ego. It's not about getting attention. It's not about making yourself look great. It's about making that person you're working for look great and making their life easier, right? So people who need an apprentice are often way too busy. They're way too consumed with things to deal with the minutia. You're there to save them time. So if you're like wasting their time by talking to them, asking things, then you.

• 5:54Speaker 00

  Having drama or being difficult.

• 5:57Robert Greene?

  Yeah. So your job is to save them time. And if you save them time, they're gonna become dependent on you. Also, the person that you're working for tends to lack certain skills. They lack time, which I certainly did, but they also lack skills. You need to find out what they're missing and you need to be the one that's supplying it. So for me with you, it was, I had no internet skills. I grew up in an era with nothing like that. And you fixed Wikipedia pages, which led to you getting hired by Dev Charney, which seemed like magic to me at the time. So what are these skills that you have that this person doesn't? That you can lean on, that you can impress them with and save them time and don't fuck things up?

• 6:42Robert Greene?

  And observe yourself. So now social media, we can see all your embarrassing photographs, all your neo-Nazi rants and comments, right? You gotta be very careful. You gotta be more careful than I had to be when I was younger. You can't do things that are gonna embarrass you. You gotta be careful what you say. You have to be careful of how you dress. You have to be able to observe yourself and see them, how other people are gonna see you and get outside of your narrow Gen Z world and look at, you know, how the older generation. I know it sounds patronizing, but it's actually true. So there's so many ways nowadays to screw things up by like bullshitting and using AI to write something

• 7:27Robert Greene?

  instead of doing it yourself.

• 7:30Speaker 00

  It's interesting, the apprentice thing, because it connects to two laws and the laws of power, I think. Tell me what you think. Number one, never outshine the master. So don't bring drama, conflict, news, whatever to the person. But also it's an inverse of one of my favorite laws that I would say you are the opposite of as far as having a boss, which is let others do all the work and take all the credit. That's what a good apprentice-apprentee relationship is, is that you're helping, the writers on a TV show are making the host look good. You've always been incredibly generous to me, but that a good apprentice has to have no ego in that they're willing to do all the work and let other people take the credit. And in fact, that's the whole job.

• 8:10Robert Greene?

  And you also have to appeal to their self-interest, which is saving them time. You also have to create dependency so that they become dependent on you for things they can't do themselves. And you have to, with AI doing everything, you have to be able to present things that they can't get from AI, right? If you're a young person going into university, the main thing you need to learn is to learn how to write. Because AI can write, but it's crap. It's like a bot. And it doesn't have soul. It doesn't have spirit. It doesn't have the human touch. AI can't write a sentence that seems on the surface a little bit illogical, but that's kind of poetic and interesting, surprising.

• 8:53Robert Greene?

  Maybe in 30 years it can, but it doesn't have a soul. It doesn't have a spirit. Learn how to write in college. Delve into it. Don't be like those other people who are cheating. Learn how to write. It'll be a skill that, I don't care what field you're in, unless you're going into plumbing, that being able to write won't be a critical skill.

• 9:15Speaker 00

  Not just the ability to write, because I do think that remains a precious resource, but it's people who can write have also learned how to think. There is nobody who is a good writer who is not also a good thinker. Because to write, you have to know how to think. And I talk about this in the wisdom book, like who you are on the other side of having done the writing is what it's all about, not having the slop kicked out by a computer.

• 9:39Robert Greene?

  Right, right. Also, I mean, I'm gonna sound really persnickety, but.

• 9:46Robert Greene?

  No, learn grammar, learn basics of grammar and spelling. I mean, we have spell check now, so it's not that difficult. But when I get an email or somebody asking to work for me and they don't know how to spell, it sends up all sorts of red flags.

• 10:00Speaker 00

  I mean, you've got. Maybe it'll counter signal at this point because you will know a human wrote it.

• 10:06Robert Greene?

  But that's probably what the AI will probably be starting to do that to fake it.

• 10:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, writing and thinking are two important ones. And then I think obviously interpersonal skills, like part of it is being invisible. Like, can you contribute positively to a person's life without taking up a bunch of space? The other part of it is like, can you be a good hang? Like, are you, are you pleasant to be in the room with? Or are you weird and off putting and uncomfortable? Do they trust, like, do they trust you in their house? Or, you know, with their communications, like, part of it is that.

• 10:38Robert Greene?

  Well, you know, mastery, I have, I take you through the process, discovering your life's task, apprenticeship, finding a mentor, and then social skills, chapter four. Because if you don't, social skills is a skill, it's a skill like writing, it's a skill like camp, being able to build something, you have to take that very, very seriously. And problem is if you're living in this virtual worlds and you're not interacting with people, you become very awkward socially. And the thing is, older people who are you going to be working for, and they're not going to be as old as me, they'll be like in their thirties and forties, like more like your age. They come from a different world.

• 11:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:16Robert Greene?

  You have to be able to mix with people from different generations. That's the social skill.

• 11:21Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 11:21Robert Greene?

  You know? And I had to develop that in my career, working for, I had so many bosses, so many bad bosses, but people of many different generations. I had to learn, back when I was in my twenties, what will please somebody in their fifties and their sixties. It's a different way of thinking than if you're just totally, totally wrapped up in yourself.

• 11:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, can you be the youngest person in the room and it not be a big deal? I had two experiences that sat with me when I was working in Hollywood. And I clearly violated different laws of power with both of them. I remember in one of them, we were driving somewhere, I was taking some of the partners of this talent agency to YouTube, because we'd signed this person on YouTube and YouTube was going to be the future and I was taking them. And, you know, one of the partners is the owner of this company, he's talking about one of the other partners, wasn't there. And, you know, he was like, well, you know, so and so doesn't think that this is worth our time. Why, why should we be here? And I was like, well, he doesn't, he just doesn't know what he's talking about. That's what I said.

• 12:22Robert Greene?

  Uh oh.

• 12:22Speaker 00

  And this guy was like, he blew up, he's like, who the fuck are you to fucking say this? This person's done all this stuff. You know, like, I was talking as though I would talk to my friends, like, I didn't mean, like, this person's an idiot, I just was saying, like, he just doesn't know about this thing, but I offended this guy's ego on this other guy's behalf.

• 12:41Robert Greene?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:42Speaker 00

  And, you know, I could have gotten fired in the room right then. And, and so you have to learn the etiquette and the conversations. And the other one that happened to me was, we were in some meeting and, you know, they were talking about this thing and then I sort of spoke up. And, you know, I said something, I don't even remember what I said, which is kind of the point. And my, my boss took me aside after and he was like, why did you say that? And I go, what do you mean? He's like, did you say that because it needed to be said or because you just wanted to have something to say?

• 13:10Robert Greene?

  Yeah.

• 13:11Speaker 00

  And I was like, this is the definition of always say less than necessary. Like, I could have quietly sat there and just been content to be invited in the room.

• 13:18Robert Greene?

  Yeah.

• 13:18Speaker 00

  But instead I had to let everyone know I was in the room. And he was just saying, the chances of you fucking that up are higher if you talk than if you don't talk.

• 13:26Robert Greene?

  And also, when you're in a meeting like that, though, if you're just quiet and you're just like in a shell, that doesn't read well.

• 13:32Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 13:33Robert Greene?

  You have to look like you're interested, you're serious, you're watchable, but you keep your mouth shut.

• 13:37Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 13:37Robert Greene?

  But you're engaged, you're taking notes. There's a way to be quiet, but also look like you're conscientious and, you know, and you also almost get fired because you had a copy of the 48 laws of power?

• 13:49Speaker 00

  That is why I got fired.

• 13:50Robert Greene?

  Oh.

• 13:51Speaker 00

  Because I was working for you and so I would, you know, you were having me try to do things, so I had a copy of the, of the book because I was needing to get stuff out of it for you or for me. It wasn't, and the, again, people don't, people like to think we don't live in a world like this, but we do live in a world like this. Where the owner of the talent agency, who was kind of an Ari Golds type figure, would walk by my desk every day. And instead of me being a faceless assistant that he could not have to think about, he saw the 48 laws of power on my desk. So his only impression of me was somehow negative and weird, like I was up to something.

• 14:32Speaker 00

  And then he, he was in conflict with one of the partners of the company, who was my boss.

• 14:39Robert Greene?

  I knew the guy, right?

• 14:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, Aaron.

• 14:40Robert Greene?

  Aaron, yeah.

• 14:41Speaker 00

  And, and at some point, this guy's paranoia kicked in and he started to project on to me, what he was also thinking about this person. There ended up being this big blow up where he thought I was eavesdropping on a phone call and really I was on the phone call because my boss asked me to be on it to take notes because he didn't want to do it. And, you know, we had this like physical confrontation, like he, he burst into my boss's office where I was on the phone.

• 15:08Robert Greene?

  Yeah.

• 15:08Speaker 00

  And he's like, what the fuck are you doing? You know, like screaming to me. And then I remember, because I've never seen a person act like this, it was a very Hollywood thing, he, he's a door like that and he grams it, he grabs it and he slams it shut and then opens it and slams it shut and opens it and he's just trying to show that like, like, he could hurt, not like that he would hurt me, but like that he was like an unhinged individual and I was at his mercy. That was like, and I just was like, whoa, this is crazy. And I remember I got up and I just walked out and then I called you later and you were like, well, I have this other thing for you at American Apparel anyway.

• 15:48Robert Greene?

  Right. Well, the Wikipedia page, the famous Wikipedia.

• 15:51Speaker 00

  The famous Wikipedia page, yes.

• 15:52Robert Greene?

  Yeah.

• 15:53Speaker 00

  But anyways, that was, yeah, that was a weird, that was a weird experience. We were looking to spruce up our, our front porch, the weather's finally getting better. We wanted to spend some time hanging out outside with the kids. So we got these awesome hammocks and we actually got them from today's sponsor, Wayfair. If you drove by our, our house, you'd see us out there with our kids reading, we've got this new kitten all hanging out in the hammocks. It's been awesome. And that's because on Wayfair, you'll find quality materials that stand up to real life. They sell furniture and decor that's built to last. And when you shop with Wayfair Verified, it's your shortcut to durable pieces that are hand vetted by product specialists using their 10-point quality inspection. They've got thousands of products at every style and budget, whether you're simply replacing

• 16:35Speaker 00

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• 17:07Speaker 02

  Welcome to 215 Maple Drive. We just put this property on the market.

• 17:13Speaker 03

  Love the crown molding.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  Oh, wait until you see the walk-in closets and the bathroom tile.

• 17:18Speaker 03

  Does it have Verizon FiOS? You know, 100% fiber internet?

• 17:22Speaker 02

  No FiOS, but it looks like it's got cable. Let's check out the kitchen.

• 17:25Speaker 03

  No FiOS? Yeah, no, thank you.

• 17:29Speaker 02

  Don't you want to see the rest? Okay, bye bye.

• 17:32Speaker 04

  Get Verizon FiOS because when you're moving, it's 100% or nothing.

• 17:38Robert Greene?

  So you violated some of the laws.

• 17:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, you probably violate most of them on, at various points in your.

• 17:45Robert Greene?

  Yeah.

• 17:45Speaker 00

  Like, you did mention another one, though, which I think people fuck up in the early stage of their career, which is the, yeah, appeal to, to self-interest, never mercy or gratitude. Do, I'm sure you get emails where people are like, I just need a shot. Or like, they'll tell you a whole sob story about their whole life.

• 18:02Robert Greene?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:02Speaker 00

  And they, they think that this would be persuasive. In fact, you go, look, I feel bad for this person.

• 18:09Robert Greene?

  Yeah.

• 18:10Speaker 00

  But it sounds like a lot of drama over here.

• 18:13Robert Greene?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:13Speaker 00

  I want to hire this other person who's seen this low stress, high competence.

• 18:19Robert Greene?

  Yeah.

• 18:19Speaker 00

  And so to get a shot, you have to make it clear that the shot is good for the person giving you the shot.

• 18:25Robert Greene?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And to do that, you have to be able to get outside yourself. That's a skill that's like the number one social quality. So I am wrapped up in myself, I've got all these problems. If I tell them I'll, I'll look like I'm somebody who's very sincere.

• 18:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:45Robert Greene?

  And have had a rough time, but that doesn't read like that to the other person. So you have to be able to get outside yourself and observe how other people are seeing you. And that's a skill that you have to develop. You can't just say whatever you say. You can't just dress the way you want to. You just can't act the way you feel like it. You have to be aware that people are looking at you and judging you. That humans live on appearances. I don't know. I don't know who you are. I didn't know what deep inside of you, whether you really are conscientious, whether you are really smart. I had to base it on appearances because that's all I have, right?

• 19:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:23Robert Greene?

  So you have to be aware that people are judging you on that level. And it's not, oh, you could say it's superficial. Oh, I just want to be myself. Get out of that adolescent mindset and realize that people are looking at you. You want to see how they're looking. Be able to look at yourself through their eyes.

• 19:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, I remember another mistake I made related to that. I got a, a job interview at a record label before I worked at this agency. I remember I went in a suit because I thought that's what you do at a job interview.

• 19:51Robert Greene?

  I've never, ever seen you in a suit.

• 19:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, the only time I wear suits now is if, if you ever have to do anything in Washington DC. You said something about that.

• 19:58Robert Greene?

  Even at your wedding, you weren't wearing a suit.

• 20:00Speaker 00

  I was in a suit. Yeah.

• 20:01Robert Greene?

  Okay, okay.

• 20:02Speaker 00

  Yeah. But anyways, I went and I wore, I was wearing the wrong uniform. I sent the wrong signal.

• 20:07Robert Greene?

  Oh, yeah.

• 20:07Speaker 00

  Right, like, I, I think people want to live in a world where these things don't matter. But you have to dress the part. You have to know, sometimes dressing the part is dressing up. Sometimes dressing the part is counter signaling the opposite of dressing up.

• 20:19Robert Greene?

  American Apparel, what were you supposed to?

• 20:20Speaker 00

  Totally. I would have never have worn a suit there.

• 20:22Robert Greene?

  You'd have a nose ring to get hired at American Apparel.

• 20:26Speaker 00

  Yes, that thing about appealing to self-interest, not mercy or gratitude. The other place that was influential for me is you talk about that, that I believe the story in the 48 Laws of Power about this is the story about the two allies in the Peloponnesian War. It's Corsica and I, I'm forgetting the name. It's two countries in, that are appealing to Athens. And one says, hey, we've been a loyal ally for a long time. You should do us this solid. And the other says, hey, if you don't work with us, it'll be bad for you for the following reasons. It'll be good for you for the following reasons.

• 21:03Robert Greene?

  Right, right.

• 21:03Speaker 00

  And so it's an interesting story. The first time I'd heard it was in your book. And then, you know, a year or so later, I was reading Thucydides.

• 21:11Robert Greene?

  Yeah.

• 21:12Speaker 00

  And, and then the story's there. You go, oh, this is where that story comes from. And that was a glimpse for me in how you did what you do.

• 21:21Robert Greene?

  Uh huh.

• 21:21Speaker 00

  Which is what I think the apprenticeship is really about is seeing.

• 21:25Robert Greene?

  I see.

• 21:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, that wasn't a specific lesson that you told me.

• 21:28Robert Greene?

  Yeah.

• 21:28Speaker 00

  But you're in the room and you're able to observe them. And you see how the person you want to be like is doing what they do.

• 21:37Robert Greene?

  Well, that's the thing about a mentorship because you're not just learning facts and, and, and little lessons. You're learning about their spirit and, and how their mind works. And it, it's not easy to do that. It takes a high level of intelligence to be able to observe not just what they're doing or saying, but the spirit behind it, what's, what's the kind of magic they're creating? You know, I'd never had a mentor. So when I had to write these books, like 48 Laws, I had to create it all myself. I didn't have anybody, you know, it was totally my, out of nowhere, using history,

• 22:19Robert Greene?

  creating note cards, putting things on the sides of the margin. I didn't have anybody to teach that to me. I don't know where it came, I'm not like trying to, to trumpet myself. But I, I think the only mentors that I had, I guess where I'm going at is I read a lot of books and I was around writing my whole life in my career. And so I was able to create something myself. So maybe you're not going to be able to find a mentor in your life. Maybe you're not be able to get an official apprenticeship like you had. But you can create your own.

• 22:56Speaker 00

  Right.

• 22:57Robert Greene?

  By being serious, you can read the chapter that I wrote on, on mentors and how you can create your own kind of mentorship relationship with a dead person or somebody that you're not even communicating with, learning their lessons and putting them into practice.

• 23:22Speaker 05

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