The Halloween Special

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 432 of the criminology podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson.

And this is Mike Morford.

Morf, what's going on?

Doing good. I, you know, the day we're recording this is my daughter's 16th birthday. So happy birthday, Abby. And she just got her driver's license today. So if you're on the roads in Florida, watch out.

Yeah, it's a big milestone. I remember when both of my daughters got their driver's license, they were, you know, they were excited. I was scared. I'm still scared, right? And they're, they've been driving for years and years.

Yeah, I don't think that ever goes away. I think you're always worried about them.

Well, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had new support from Al. So we really appreciate that.

Yeah, thank you so much, Al. Thanks to everyone else too, that helps support the show. If you want to get started, head over to patreon.com/criminology.

And you all heard that intro music at the beginning of this episode. So you already know what time it is. We're diving into our annual Halloween episode, and this is one of our favorite episodes of the year. I think, Morf, you and I, we really like the creepy stories that we present on these Halloween episodes. But we're going to do something a little bit different this year. We're going to discuss some different frightening and bizarre ghost stories. All of them with some level of mystery and violence.

There's a long history of ghosts, spirits and poltergeist in many cultures. In the United States, after the civil war, there was a real shift in who or what a ghost was. Pre-civil war ghosts were mostly demonic entities that basically warned one they were straying from the righteous path, or that they would be punished, though there were supposed sightings of very famous people after their deaths. But these weren't hauntings. They just appeared and disappeared. After the war, ghosts became the spirits of those we once loved. And importantly, they could be contacted. Now, when ghosts appeared to you, they were trying to tell you something. It became very important to make sure someone's spirit could rest without a need to come back and haunt anyone.

We see this today when we put someone's body in their favorite outfit and place items they loved in their casket before they're buried. We're in shows like The Ghost Whisperer, where the main character encounters different ghosts and has to help them get closure. So they can cross over to the other side. That kind of ghost, one with unfinished business, is the kind of ghost we're going to discuss in these stories, starting with the Greenbrier ghost.

This case is the first and only known case where the testimony of a ghost was entered as evidence at trial. The jury got to consider the words of a ghost. On January 23rd, 1897, 20-year-old Zona Heester Schuh was found dead in her home in Greenbrier County, West Virginia. Despite her young age, it appeared that Zona had died of natural causes. She had been sick for days, maybe even weeks before her death. Dr. J M Knapp ruled that she had died of heart failure. The illness had just been too much for her body. After Zona's funeral, her mother, Mary Jane, started waking up in the middle of the night.

Each time she saw Zona there with her in the room, looking exactly as she looked the day she died. Four nights in a row, Zona appeared to her mother. Each time she stayed longer. Finally, she told her mother that she didn't die of natural causes. Instead, she told her mother that she had been murdered. And Morf, you know, when we talk about ghosts, the supernatural, you know, whatever you want to call it, I'm fascinated by it. I love the movies. I may have said it before, but you know, actually the Conjuring series, it's some of my favorite movies.

I really like those movies. But here's the thing, I don't know if I believe in any of it. And, and that's probably a divisive take because a lot of people do and a lot of people don't.

Yeah, I believe in ghosts personally, and you know, I love a good ghost story. But at the same time, if I found out I moved into a haunted house, I'd be frightened. And I think there's an, you know, in this story about Zona, you know, her mom maybe has some comfort that she's seeing her daughter there. And, you know, maybe that's proved to her that there's something beyond, you know, after you die. But at the same time, you know, I wonder if she was a little bit frightened because, you know, seeing a ghost, even if you believe in them and it's someone you love, that might be a little bit unnerving.

And I think that's a big part of it for me. I've just never had any type of experience that would lead me to believe, right? And that, that's probably a big part of it for a lot of people. But the one thing that I thought about was if you did see a ghost, wouldn't there be a big difference between a loved one, right? Seeing someone that you loved, your, your daughter in this case, as opposed to a stranger or something you couldn't quite make out? I mean, I think the two would be, you know, very different.

Mary Jane went straight to the authorities to tell them that Zona's husband of less than three months, Edward Schuh, was responsible for her death. Many believe that Mary Jane had just been having vivid dreams due to grief. But she was adamant she had been awake when she saw her daughter. She said that they were visions sent to her by the Lord as an answer to her prayers. Dr. Knapp reportedly had not been able to fully examine Zona's body at the scene. Because her husband Edward was so distraught, he wouldn't let go of her head. Instead, the doctor did his examination around Edward, coming to the conclusion that since there were no signs of any injuries, she must have suffered a tragic medical emergency of some kind. But now with Zona's ghost accusing Edward of murder, it put his actions in a different light.

It's unknown whether authorities truly believed Mary Jane, but either way, they decided to look into the possibility that Zona was murdered. For this, they had to redo the entire investigation.

So Morf, not only is Mary Jane claiming that she is encountering Zona, but also Zona is communicating to her that she didn't die of natural causes, she was murdered, and she was murdered by her husband Edward.

That's a pretty shocking revelation, and I don't know how much stock they put into that. But for whatever reason, they decided to go through with exhuming her body and seeing if there could be anything to it.

So Zona's body was exhumed, moved from the family's mountainside cemetery and taken to a nearby schoolhouse. This wasn't an easy process and it was quite upsetting to people at the time. It's still upsetting to families and the general public when it happens today, but there is a process for it. And it's more common than it was in 1897. An autopsy, a real one, was performed. It took days. Dr. Knapp discovered that Zona's neck had been broken. When Edward heard the news that her neck had been broken, his reaction didn't do him any favors. And he reportedly began to act differently and suspiciously to those around him.

According to westvirginiaexplorer.com, Anderson Jones, who was just 11 years old at the time of Zona's death, would later say, "A change came over him that I can't explain, but it certainly proved his guilt to me."

Anderson Jones claimed that Edward came by his mother Martha's house four separate times the day that Zona died. Edward was hoping that Anderson could go help Zona around the house since she was sick. The first time he stopped by was early in the morning, but Anderson already had chores that he had to do that day. The last time was around one in the afternoon with two visits in between. By one, Anderson was able to go to the Schuh home as Edward requested. But immediately upon arrival, things felt off. According to westvirginiaexplorer.com, he said, "I felt that something was wrong. All the doors were closed and there was an air about the place I did not like. There was a trail of blood from the front steps all the way into the dining room.

The front door was unlocked and the dining room door was closed. Anderson opened it and found Zona's body. She was lying on the floor on her back with her eyes and mouth wide open. Anderson said she seemed to be laughing, but when he reached down to touch her, he realized she was cold and stiff. She was dead and she had been for quite some time. He immediately ran to his mother to tell her the news, then ran to the blacksmith shop where Edward worked. By the time Anderson got back to the home, Zona was lying in bed with Edward holding her head, begging her to wake up. A collar and a scarf had been placed around her neck. As far as Anderson could remember, she had not been wearing these when he found her body on the dining room floor."

With the new knowledge that Zona had not died of heart failure, Anderson was now certain that Edward had been trying to set him up to find her body. The plan had been for her to be found much earlier, but Anderson had been busy. Edward needed her to be found when he was away from the home. Explaining the three subsequent trips to the Jones' home that day, knowing that her neck had been broken, it became obvious that the collar and scarf had been attempts to hide that fact from the doctor and anyone else who showed up. Though people did note that her head seemed to roll or flop around as if her neck was loose.

It also explained why during the wake, instead of socializing with her family and neighbors, Edward stood at the head of her coffin and he seemed not to let anyone get too close. Edward Schuh was arrested and charged with the murder of Zona Schuh. And Morf, you know, this is a pretty devious plan. And what it makes me think of is that

You know, crime hasn't really changed all that much. I mean, we're talking about 1897 here, but you still see premeditation. You still see someone trying to be, you know, extremely devious here with Anderson. This is an 11 year old kid and Edward is trying to get him to find his wife's body. So that, you know, he can kind of set up this alibi. Well, it couldn't have been me because I wasn't home.

Yeah, that's pretty disgusting to do to an 11 year old kid, make him find your wife's dead body. And also the details that Anderson provided, they were so much different than the original story that she simply died of heart failure. You know, he's finding blood, different situations with the door. She's laying on the floor. Then when he comes back to the house later on, she's in the bed and things look different, almost like it's cleaned up. So definitely something shady was going on here. At trial, Zona's mother was allowed to describe exactly what Zona's ghost had told her. This might seem ridiculous, but it wasn't the prosecution calling a ghost as her witness. The defense brought up Zona's ghost, hoping the jury would think these sightings were

just the dreams of a grieving mother. But Mary Jane was adamant that she was awake the whole time. She wouldn't back down because the defense had brought it up. The prosecution was allowed to ask her questions about it, leading the jury to hear what she said Zona's ghost told her.

According to Mary Jane, Zona said, "He seized each side of my head with his hands and by a sudden wrench, dislocated my neck." And all because she hadn't cooked any meat to serve with the dinner she had ready and waiting for him when he got home from work. Mary Jane also described multiple things about the shoes home and neighborhood that she said Zona's ghost told her. She had apparently never visited the home, but was able to accurately describe it all, adding to her credibility in the eyes of the jury. The cards were kind of stacked against Edward. He was new to town.

While Zona was born in the area, he had been married twice before his marriage to Zona. His second wife had also died just eight months into the marriage. Now, there's not a lot of information on his first wife. Some sources say she also died mysteriously, but to find a grave page has her living well into her seventies, actually outliving Edward and Zona by decades. The jury found Edward Chu guilty of killing Zona. He died in prison just three years later. He was 38 years old. Edward did die from natural causes, though the specific illness that took his life is unknown. And this is a wild and intriguing case, right?

All the way back from 1897. The fact that Zona's mother, Mary Jane, would even be allowed to talk about what a ghost, her daughter's ghost, told her to the jury is just amazing. But to be fair, the defense did bring it up, right? And you would have to say that, looking back, that would have been just a terrible lapse in judgment to bring it up, to allow it to even be introduced at the trial.

Yeah, this is a very bizarre story for sure. You know, the fact that, you know, there's this exhumation of the body, a trial, you know, he's ultimately found guilty of it. But I want to go back to the, the whole origin of Zona's mom's encounter with her ghost. It seems hard to believe that that could happen, but how would she know all those details about Zona's neck being broken and described how it happened? And then when they do a full autopsy, they realize that it's a broken neck. You know, is this just a mother's intuition or a lucky guess?

Or did she really have some encounter with Zona that she got all this information? It's hard to just discount it.

Yeah, I agree with you. It's hard to discount it completely. But that's the thing with ghost stories, right? Yeah, sure, some you can discount completely because they're fantastical. They don't make any sense. But I think a lot of them are hard to completely discount because there are some elements that definitely could be true or seem true or are true. And that's where the kind of the mystery and, and all of it lies. Losing weight on your own can feel like a fight you keep losing. Weight loss by Hers offers access to the FDA approved Wegovy pill and the Wegovy pen.

Wegovy is the first ever GLP-1 weight loss medication available in a pill, and it also comes as a pen. So you've got options with Wegovy. You can lose up to 20% of your body weight. People lost an average of 14% body weight at 64 weeks in a clinical trial of Wegovy alongside diet and exercise. To get started with Wegovy, just go to forhers.com and complete an online consultation with a licensed provider who will determine if a prescription is appropriate. And Hers doesn't stop there. Nutrition and lifestyle guidance are part of the plan, along with access to 24/7 messaging with your care team. So support is always in reach. Ready to reach your goals?

Visit forhers.com/criminology to access personalized, affordable care for weight loss, hair, menopause, and more. Individual results may vary and stopping treatment may result in weight regain. Weight loss by Hers is not available in all 50 states. Wegovy is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk AS. To get started and learn more, including important safety information, Wegovy clinical study information and restrictions, visit forhers.com.

Well, Zona Heaster is the only ghost whose words were used in the trial of her killer. There are other ghosts who stuck around long enough to make sure that their case saw justice. And that brings us to our next story, the pet cemetery. On April 13th, 1985, 60 year old Dorothy Lou Thompson disappeared from St. Bernard Parish, Louisiana. On May 2nd, her body was recovered from the Mississippi River in Plaquemines Parish. Her death was clearly no accident. There was a bag over her head and over that a wire had been wrapped around her neck, strangling her. She was partially nude and her body had been weighed down with chains.

News of Dorothy's murder shocked her community and investigators wanted to see her case solved quickly. But early on, they struggled with one question. Who would want Dorothy dead? Dorothy owned the Azalea Original Pet Cemetery, which her mother Grace founded. Dorothy had been married twice. Both of her husbands died violently after being shot. Dorothy had definitely killed her first husband, but it's less clear what happened to her second husband. Either way, she was never charged in either of their deaths. In 1970, Dorothy shot her husband Logan Banks in the rear part of the cemetery.

She claimed she had no other choice because he had been drunk, armed with a knife and threatening her and her mother. Logan's homicide was ruled self-defense and Dorothy remained free.

After Logan's death, Dorothy went on to marry Donald E. Robinson, who was one of the caretakers at the cemetery. In 1978, Dorothy reportedly found his body somewhere on the cemetery property. He had been shot. Once again, she wasn't charged in his murder and it's unclear whether she shot him or someone else had. The next year, Dorothy's mother died and left her the land next door to the cemetery. After this, Dorothy became depressed and started taking medication to help numb her pain. During this time, she signed over the 14 acre property to the wife of Brandon Noeder, who was the cemetery's groundskeeper. Noeder stopped paying Dorothy, leaving her without property or the money she was promised

for it, which was $20,000, split up into payments of $50 each month until the debt was paid in full.

So when Dorothy was killed, investigators did suspect Noeder, the groundskeeper, she was in the process of suing him when she was killed. She had also filed for a restraining order against Noeder and his wife Bonnie. Since they lived on cemetery property, they would be evicted if the restraining order was granted. There was a hearing in the case scheduled for April 23rd, just 10 days after Dorothy's disappearance. Noeder had a history of shady real estate deals and had been sued in the past at least once. In 1980, he was sued by the real estate company Ladder and Blum, Inc., after failing

to pay them commission and claiming he had never sold his house through them despite a written contract. And due to the very low payments, it's believed that the Noedeers somehow tricked Dorothy into the deal while she was intoxicated. When she realized what had happened, she decided to sue and get her property back.

Due to the shady dealings and the fact that No Deer and his wife would obviously benefit from Dorothy's death, they were looked at as suspects in Dorothy's murder. But without her alive to testify, the lawsuit Dorothy had brought would eventually be dropped, and life for him would go on. They would keep their house and the property without having to pay for it. Investigators couldn't find anything to solidly link them to Dorothy's murder, and the case went cold. And in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in 2005, many of the case files were lost or destroyed. More than 30 years after Dorothy's murder, there was finally a break in the case.

In 2009, a man named Jose Cruz contacted authorities and claimed that No Deer had confessed to Dorothy's murder. And he added one more interesting detail. According to Cruz, No Deer had been haunted by Dorothy for all those years. He had seen her spirit multiple times. Still, there was little movement in the investigation. In 2012, James Tregler, who was the assistant groundskeeper at the cemetery, claimed he had seen Dorothy's murder. It's widely reported that he wanted to come clean after all these years, because he too was being haunted by her ghost.

It was almost like after three years with no progress, despite the call from Jose, Dorothy started moving down the line of people who could lead investigators to No Deer, haunting them until they took action. And more of when I think, you know, the supernatural, hauntings, you know, whatever you want to call it, this part of Louisiana kind of comes to mind. I mean, there's just such a history down there, right? Of voodoo and, and just all kinds of things like that.

Yeah, Louisiana definitely has a share of, you know, rich history, ghost stories, you know, a lot of infamous ones. There's a, you know, infamous plantation down there that was supposedly haunted by, I think it was a slave. I did a ghost tour when I was there years ago, and the creepy places that they walk you through, you know, you can envision that stuff happening. And, and some of the stories they were telling, you know, it wasn't hard to, you know, put yourself in, in the situation and see things unfolding when they were telling those stories.

Well, and New Orleans in particular, right? It's a cool place, awesome place, but it also has a creep factor to it. You know, the architecture, the, I don't know, there's something about New Orleans.

Investigators finally reopened Dorothy's case and started to interview remaining witnesses, which No Deer noticed and was not happy about. He visited Tregler, who was in jail at the time, and told him to keep his mouth shut. No Deer threatened not only his life, but his wife's. Being locked up and unable to protect his wife, it made him jump into action. He called authorities and said he was finally ready to talk if it meant that his wife would be safe. Finally, Brandon No Deer was arrested and charged with second degree murder. In 2014, 60-year-old No Deer decided to plead guilty to a lesser charge of manslaughter. Prosecution was happy with the plea deal because her case was based not on physical

evidence, but on the word of someone with an extensive criminal record. No Deer was sentenced to serve 10 years in prison. However, because the murder happened in 1985, sentencing laws from then applied to No Deer, even though he was convicted in 2014. Because of this, he would become eligible for parole in less than five years. It's not known if Dorothy continues to haunt him to this day.

And this is a fascinating case, too. But I want to take a minute and just go back and look at the actual crime, the murder, and the circumstances around it. It seems very obvious that the murder was solely about the property, the money, this deal, right? To buy her house, they weren't paying her, they didn't want to get evicted. So No Deer killed her. And then you have the reason why everything comes to light so many years later, and it's because, as people believe, these various individuals who were either involved or who

knew about it were being haunted by Dorothy's ghost.

Yeah, it seems pretty clear that No Deer early on had, you know, taken advantage of Dorothy. You know, maybe she was desperate for money. We mentioned that she might've had some issues with dependency. And, you know, he, to give her $50 a month, it would take her forever to get paid in full. So it seems clearly, clear that he took advantage of her. And then when she caught on to it and said, this isn't right, I'm going to do something about it, you know, he, he murdered her. It was a, it's a pretty old, typical reason why a lot of murders happen, over money or disagreements over money.

But here's the thing with a story like this, right? Could it have been a ghost? Okay, maybe, if you believe in that. But could it also have been the fact that Tregler knew what No Deer had done? And then No Deer was threatening Tregler's wife? And that's the reason why he decided to, you know, come clean to authorities? Or it could be a combination of both? I don't know.

Yeah, if Dorothy truly was haunting No Deer, he deserved to be haunted.

But it's shocking to me that he could be convicted of murder, but become eligible for parole in less than five years. And, and I also thought it was strange that he was allowed to, to plead to the lesser charge of manslaughter. But I get it, maybe their, you know, their case just wasn't all that strong, you know? It was essentially based on the word of someone who had this criminal record, and so they thought, well, we were taking a big chance if, if we go to trial. But that's not a lot of punishments for committing murder.

The next story we're going to talk about is the legend of Fisher's ghost. Now, there's not a lot of information out there on this case, but it's really fascinating. So we wanted to include it. On June 17th, 1826, Frederick George James Fisher disappeared from his home in Campbelltown, Australia. Only his neighbor, a man named George Worrell, claimed to know where he went. He told everyone that Fisher got on a boat to England to escape arrest on a forgery charge. Then Worrell started selling Fisher stuff, which had all been left behind.

But just four months later, a farmer named John Farley saw Frederick Fisher sitting on the railing of a bridge overlooking the creek. Fisher pointed downstream toward a field that belonged to Worrell. He then faded away, making it clear to Farley that he was a ghost. John Farley was unnerved by this sighting, and he began telling everyone he could of this very frightening encounter.

A few days later, two boys crossing George Worrell's property found blood on a fence along with hair and a tooth. A search was launched of the property, and Frederick Fisher's body was found buried in a shallow grave on Worrell's land. George Worrell, when confronted, admitted that he'd murdered Frederick Fisher before burying his body. He is found guilty and hanged for the murder. It seemed that Frederick Fisher's spirit had stayed long enough to see his killer face justice.

And no doubt, right? The further back in time you go, the harder it is to, you know, get information on, on the story. We're talking about 1826 here, but you'd have to say, it's pretty interesting. This guy claims that he sees Fisher kind of pointing to a spot on Worrell's land. And then not too long after that, Fisher's body is found in that spot.

Yeah, I think doubters, people that aren't believers in ghosts might say, well, that's just coincidence that this guy, you know, had this experience or made up this ghost story, and these kids found that blood and tooth and hair and stuff not long after. But if you're a believer, you might say, hey, this was his spirit pointing in the direction of his killer.

Yeah, I mean, when you think about ghost stories, you know, if you're a believer, then you, you point to things like that and say, hey, yeah, look, this is what happened. But even if you're not, there are some stories that make you, I think, pause, right? At the, at the very least, now, it might not change your mind completely, but it might give you a little bit of pause. I have family members who claim they've had, you know, experiences. It's not that I don't believe them. Again, like I said, it's just that I haven't experienced anything like that, so I can't say for sure.

Yeah, it's hard to discount someone if they are genuine, especially if it's someone you trust.

Now, not all of the ghosts we're talking about in this episode were murdered and came back seeking justice. The next case we're going to discuss is a case where individuals died violently, but in a plane crash. And apparently ghosts came back to warn and protect others. This is the case of the ghosts of Flight 401. On December 29th, 1972, around 9:20 PM, Eastern Airlines Flight 401 took off from JFK Airport, bound for Miami International

Airport. The plane was a brand-new Lockheed L-1011 TriStar, and it had a very experienced flight crew in the cockpit, which included 55-year-old pilot Robert Loft, 39-year-old First Officer Albert Stockstill, and 51-year-old Flight Engineer Donald Repa. Between them, this crew had 50,000 hours in the air.

The flight to Miami was uneventful, but just after 11:30 PM, as Flight 401 made its final approach to Miami International Airport and lowered its landing gear, something went wrong. Robert Stockstill noticed that the landing gear indicator, a green light identifying that the nose gear is properly locked in the down position, had not illuminated. This was later discovered to be due to a burned-out light bulb. They apparently began to wonder if the landing gear had really lowered. They certainly didn't want to risk trying to land the plane if it hadn't. So they repeated the steps for lowering the landing gear, but had the same issue, and the light that would verify that the gear was down didn't come on. Fearing that they might not be able to land, the crew called Miami International

to ask them if they could stay in a holding pattern while they worked on the issue, and were told that they could.

Flight Engineer Donald Repa then made his way down into the avionics bay beneath the flight deck via a small entryway to check if the landing gear was actually down. For the next 90 seconds or so, as Repa assessed the landing gear situation down below, Loft and Stockstill kept watch on the instruments. And that's when something else went wrong. The plane began losing altitude. First 100 feet, and then another 250. Soon, it was at half the altitude that it should have been. The black box flight recorder indicated that Loft and Stockstill were confused about the altitude. Suddenly, by the time they

realized it was too late, they crashed at 227 miles per hour into the swamps of the Florida Everglades, about 18 miles west-northwest of the Miami International Airport.

When the plane disappeared from radar, it was immediately apparent that it had gone down, and rescue boats and personnel were sent to its last recorded position. Meanwhile, two men who were out fishing had saw the plane go down and raced toward it in their boat to try and help rescue people. It was a chaotic scene, and debris and bodies were scattered about. Somehow, 75 people had survived the crash, including 67 passengers and eight of the 10 flight attendants onboard. All three of the men on the flight crew were killed. Stockstill died on impact. Loft died in the wreckage before he could make it to a hospital, and Repa made it to the hospital but died there from his injuries. The NTSB later revealed that pilot error had brought the plane down, and not an issue with the landing gear. This

was obviously a major tragedy, and the story could have ended there, but it didn't.

And more if you call this a tragedy, no doubt it is. I mean, crashing at 227 miles per hour, even into, you know, a swampy area, is going to cause a lot of deaths. There's just no way around it. Also, crashing into the Everglades. I know you live in Florida. The Everglades, to me, are just, it's just a place that I don't want to spend any time because I immediately think about alligators. And alligators scare me to no end. I'm deathly afraid of alligators.

Yeah, it's not an area where you want to try and be rescuing people and getting into the water, trying to pull people out because of, you know, you mentioned the alligators, snakes, you know, the just bad conditions all around. So not, not a good situation to try and do recovery and rescue efforts.

But this is also scary from the standpoint of, you know, a lot of people are scared of flying, right? That's a common fear that people have. But to think about these pilots and how experienced they were, to somehow get confused about the altitude, to the point where they crashed the plane, that's, it seems unbelievable that that could even happen.

Yeah, it probably didn't help that it was dark. There's not lighting because they're over the swamp, so they probably couldn't see much. And if they started to doubt their instruments and their controls, and were going strictly by what they could see, they probably couldn't see much. So it might explain how it happened.

Parts of the wrecked TriStar were salvaged and used in other planes. After these parts were installed, ghosts started appearing on the planes that had parts from Flight 401. There were multiple stories of a member of the flight crew seeing the spirit of someone who died in the crash of Flight 401. Most often, the spirit was described as looking like Flight 401 Flight Engineer Donald Repa. Usually, he would appear in full uniform. One of the witnesses that reported seeing the ghost had known Donald Repa, and they

had no doubt that the ghost they had seen was him. Sometimes the ghost would just appear and disappear quickly. But sometimes people heard it speak, usually about something related to an issue with the plane. And there's, there's two things more that jump out to me about this. The first is, I would not have thought that parts from a plane that crashed would be used in other planes. I just, I wouldn't have thought that. That makes me even a little more fearful of flight travel.

Yeah, that's, that's pretty scary, and I don't know if it still goes on today. Maybe they've, you know, changed the guidelines about that. But yeah, I'd be a little bit nervous knowing that a plane I was flying on was using parts from another plane that had crashed.

And then the second thing is, I would be fearful if somebody was on the plane talking about a possible problem with the plane I'm on, but even more fearful if I thought that person was a ghost.

Yeah. And then in the one case, they, this person knew Donald Repa and believed that was his ghost. So they probably took it even more seriously. These sightings usually preceded a critical issue being discovered before a flight, or even led to canceled flights, which may have saved lives. There's no way to know whether or not something would have gone wrong if the flight hadn't been canceled. Some of the sightings, though, were ignored. For example, the face of Flight Engineer Donald Repa appeared in an oven on a flight taking the same route as Flight 401. He warned the flight attendant to watch for fire. The flight went fine, but on the return, going from Miami to New York, one of the engines

failed and nearly caught fire. The crew on that flight believed that Don Repa was trying to warn them that something was wrong. On a different flight, the crew saw Don in the cockpit. He warned them about a faulty electrical circuit. Instead of ignoring it, the crew investigated and found that he was right, and repairs were necessary.

A crew member of yet another flight once heard a knocking sound coming from a compartment in the plane. When they opened it, they saw Don's face for a split second. The crew member looked more closely and found a critical issue that could have been catastrophic in the air. It was as if Don had been knocking to warn them to look there. But it apparently wasn't only Don Repa, whose ghost was seen. Captain Robert Loft was also seen on multiple occasions after his death. He was seen telling a crew that he had already completed the pre-flight checks. The captain of that flight canceled, not wanting to take any chances

that something was wrong with the plane. News of the ghost sightings frightened the crew that had heard those stories and caused the airline to take their concerns seriously. As a result, the salvaged parts from Flight 401 were reportedly removed. And over time, the ghost sightings and stories of people seeing them must have stopped. This seemed to be a case in which, you know, ghosts weren't there to frighten people. They weren't seeking justice. Instead, it seems as if they had more of a protective nature.

But even so, Morpheus, this would scare the you know what out of me. I might be looking to change, you know, airlines, if, if I even wanted to stay in that profession at all. If I really saw something like this, yeah, I, I think I'm gonna have to make a change.

Well, if you're on a plane flying and you're seeing ghosts, there's no place to run and hide from them. So you can't get away from them. But you know, one thing that jumps out to me is they made a TV movie about this called The Ghost of Flight 401. And I remember back in the seventies, when I was a kid, it used to scare me. I was intrigued by it, but I was, I couldn't not watch it. But every time I did, I was like, super frightened by it. It had Ernest Borgnine in it, and it was right around the time of the Poseidon adventure. So, you know, he was a, a big star at the time, but it, but that movie still sticks with me. And I, I, I thought it was good, at least at the time I did. And if you can find it anywhere, you might want to watch it, you know, because it, it is an interesting movie.

Yeah, I've never seen it, but now that we've talked about this story, I'm, I might go try, try to find it. I'm sure it's got to be on some streaming service somewhere. There's so many of them.

Another plane crash ghost story centers around a man named Desmond Arthur. In 1913, Desmond Arthur, a Royal Flying Corps lieutenant, died after his plane crashed in Scotland. The cause of the accident was ruled pilot error. Soon after, his ghost started appearing to people, looking like he wanted to say something. People could hear his footsteps when no one was around. They could hear his plane flying when there was no aircraft overhead. People believed that his ghost would remain until they figured out what he was trying to say. The crash was reinvestigated, and this time it was ruled that there had been something wrong with the plane. It hadn't been the lieutenant's fault. After this, his ghost was only seen a few times, smiling before fading away.

And that one's, you know, short, but interesting, right? It, it's almost as if he wasn't happy that people were saying it was his fault, that he caused the accident. And then, once they figured out that he didn't, okay, there was no need for him to stick around. We have one final, short, but interesting ghost story that we want to share. In 2017, 61-year-old Terry Childs, a serial killer who was serving time in prison for multiple murders, made a sudden confession. He admitted to other murders that he hadn't been linked to, including that of Joan Mack

in 1984, and Christopher Hall in 1985, as well as that of Linda Ann Josephic in 1979. According to Terry Childs, the ghosts of the people he killed would appear in his prison cell and just stare at him. He apparently felt that if he owned up to the murders, the ghosts would leave him in peace. It's not clear if they did. He died in prison in 2023. And Morpheus and I have done a lot of cases on murder, obviously, but we've also done a lot of cases on serial killers.

I don't know if Terry Childs was actually haunted by some of the people he killed. I like to think that, you know, these killers are haunted by their victims. That would be, you know, justice in my eyes. You're already in prison, but at the same time, you should be haunted by the, the, the spirits of those that you killed.

Yeah, I think if, if anybody deserves to be haunted, it's these kinds of people that commit these kinds of crimes and do it over and over again. You know, if all of those people were appearing in his cell and he was frightened at night, then, then good, he deserved that.

Yeah, absolutely.

In all the ghost stories we've talked about, it seems that the ghost had unfinished business. Some apparently wanted justice, some seemed to want to torment their killer, and others wanted to protect people. Whether or not you believe in ghosts, all the cases we've discussed, at the very least, have an element of tragedy or violence, and maybe, just maybe, there's some element of the supernatural.

So, you know, as we wrap up this Halloween episode, we talked about it up front. Every year, we do the Halloween special episode, and every year I look forward to it. It's, it's fun for us, and this one was especially fun. Yes, we're talking about some murder, we're talking about violence, which we have to do, right? And in a true crime podcast, but there was a, a different element in this one. Now, some people, like I said, believe in ghosts, some people don't, but you'd have to say, some of it's pretty fascinating, whether you believe or not.

I think that's the draw of the, the supernatural element.

Yeah, there's, you know, almost like a roller coaster ride effect to some of these ghost stories, that you get that adrenaline rush, if it's a little bit frightening, but then it subsides. So when you hear these stories, you know, you're like, oh, the hairs are standing up on the back of my neck. You get a little bit nervous, your heart maybe beats a little bit faster, uh, but then, you know, it subsides. And I think that's what a good ghost story does. Do you have any ghost stories you want to share?

No, because I have no experience with it.

I thought you said you had a, a, a family member that had one.

I've had family members, I, my mother-in-law has some experiences that she had when she was younger, and she talks about it every now and then. I, I don't really know the specifics of it, but I will tell you this, she is adamant that they happened, which I think is pretty universal with people who've had those types of experiences. They, they truly believe in it.

Yeah, my aunt used to live in a house that had some issues, and when I used to stay over there sometimes on weekends, and they didn't tell me these stories at the time, because I know I'd be freaked out, which I probably would have never wanted to go over there. But, you know, there was, she told me later on, there was a time when she woke up in the middle of the night, and there was an old man who reminded her of Abraham Lincoln that was standing over her bed, and she woke her husband up, and he looked, and when they turned the light on, like he disappeared. And another story was, she was taking a bath one day, and she heard something break in

the living room, so she got out of the bathtub and went and checked on it, and a photograph had, that was on one side of the room on top of a TV, had wound up on the other side of the room, smashed against the wall. So I hear those stories, and I'm like, I'm glad, glad you didn't tell me back then, because I never would have wanted to come over to visit.

Yeah, my thought is, if I had one experience, I'm out. I'm out. We're putting the house up for sale. Uh, yeah, we're moving, because I'm not waiting around for the second, the third, the fourth. I'm getting the heck out of the Dodge.

Yeah, I don't want a good ghost story or a scary movie like The Conjuring or something, but I don't want to be involved in, in them personally.

Yeah, I'm with you. I mean, there's a reason why people like scary movies. Those who do, you want that element of fear, but who really wants it in real life? Not me, for sure. But that's it for our annual Halloween special episode. As always, if you love the show but haven't done so yet, take a minute, go out, leave us a review, also a rating, and keep telling your friends. Word of mouth about the podcast really helps us out.

If you want to find us on social media, we're on every major platform. Just search for Criminology Podcast on your favorites. And for news about the show, old episodes, and more, head over to our website, criminologypodcast.com. And if you want to join a discussion about the show and the cases we discuss, head over Facebook and search for the Criminology Podcast Discussion Fans Group.

So that's it for another episode of Criminology, but Morpheus and I will be back with all of you next Saturday night with a brand new episode. So until then, from Mike.

And Morpheus.

We'll talk to you next week.

Take care, everyone.