Introducing: 'Burden of Proof: Luigi Mangione' from ABC Audio

Luigi Mangione, ABC News Legal Analyst Brian Buckmeyer goes deep into this case and what it means. He'll unpack the murder itself, the two men at the heart of the story, and how this case has affected the conversation about healthcare in America. Whatever you feel or think you know about the case of Luigi Mangione and Brian Thompson, this podcast will make you think more critically. Keep listening to hear episode one. And if you like it, follow Burden of Proof: Luigi Mangione on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you

get your podcasts, or listen ad-free on Apple Podcasts by subscribing to 2020 True Crime Plus. Again, that's Burden of Proof: Luigi Mangione. Now here's the episode.

Number one, what is the address of your emergency?

It's December 9th, 2024, in Altoona, Pennsylvania, a small town between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg.

Um, it's not really an emergency. I'm a manager at Plank Road McDonald's out here on the Boulevard.

A McDonald's manager says there's a guy eating a hash brown and steak McMuffin in the corner of her restaurant. He's sitting by the bathroom, wearing a tan beanie and a blue medical mask.

I have a customer here that some other customers were suspicious of, that he looks like the CEO shooter from New York. Okay.

The CEO shooter from New York, the one whose face has been all over the news for five days, ever since he allegedly shot and killed an executive in Midtown Manhattan. She says she's not sure it's him, but she's calling it in anyway because she says customers keep bringing it up to her.

So they're just really upset and they're like coming to me and I was like, well, I can't approach him, you know?

No, of course not.

I could try to calm them down a little bit. And I'm like, guys, it's kind of hard to tell with his eyes and his eyebrows. I was like, I don't know what to do here, guys.

No, you're fine. You're fine.

Less than five minutes into the call, the operator tells the manager that police officers have been notified. Two patrolmen are on their way to the Plank Road McDonald's.

Just keep an eye on him. If he leaves, just give us a call back and let us know, okay? Alrighty, will do.

Alright, thank you.

Thanks.

Ah, bye bye.

Bye.

When patrolman Joseph Detweiler gets the call to respond to the McDonald's, he's also skeptical. Someone snacking on a McDonald's sandwich in Detweiler's small town? He thinks no way this guy's the CEO shooter. In fact, he is so sure, he says he makes a bet with his supervisor.

If it really turns out to be the guy wanted for murder in New York, I'll buy you a hoagie at your favorite sandwich shop.

That's my colleague Aaron Katerski, Chief Investigative Correspondent at ABC News. He's been following this case closely from the very beginning. In state court, he heard officers testify about the McDonald's call. Officer Detweiler, a veteran on the force, said he spent the morning driving around Altoona with rookie cop Tyler Frye. Detweiler was training Frye in traffic stops when they got the call. They arrived at the McDonald's around 9:29 a.m. It was decked out for the holidays.

The Christmas tree painted on the window matched the golden arches. There was Christmas music playing in the background.

We reviewed body camera footage from when the officers first walk in. And if you listen closely, you can hear that Christmas music.

As the officers walk inside, you can see touchscreens for self-checkout, garland decorating the registers, and signs for $5 meal deals. The officers head past the registers and booths straight to the back corner of the restaurant.

An area by the restroom where there's a lone individual with a mask against a white subway tile wall.

There's a brown McDonald's bag and a napkin on the table in front of him. Detweiler asks the customer to pull down his mask. Will you mask down after the call?

Yeah, sure. Appreciate it. Thank you.

The man pulls down his mask and leaves it just under his chin. He's looking up at Detweiler from the metal restaurant chair as he fiddles with the mask loop around his ear.

And he testified that almost immediately, he recognized him as the individual wanted for the murder of Brian Thompson in New York City.

The man tells the officers his name is Mark.

Mark what? Rosario. Rosario. Someone called that they thought you were suspicious. Oh, sorry. Do you have your ID on you? Yeah, yes.

He hands him a driver's license. It says he's Mark Rosario from Maplewood, New Jersey. Police call the ID into dispatch and establish it's a fake. And this man isn't Mark Rosario from Maplewood, New Jersey. But you already knew that, didn't you?

The man sitting up against that subway tile wall is identified by authorities as Luigi Mangione, the man accused of fatally shooting United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson on a New York City sidewalk just five days earlier. Police and prosecutors say Mangione's their guy. He faces charges in both New York State and federal court. Mangione says he's innocent.

People have all kinds of opinions about this alleged killer. Is he a cold-blooded murderer? Or a hero vigilante? But we're going to start at the very beginning of this story. Before there was talk of heroes or villains, before this case threw the spotlight onto America's broken healthcare industry, before most people knew the names Brian Thompson or Luigi Mangione, we're going back to when this was just about finding a gunman who vanished in the middle of Manhattan.

From ABC Audio in 2020, I'm Brian Buckmeyer, an attorney and ABC News Legal Analyst, and this is Burden of Proof: Luigi Mangione. Episode one, Christmas Time in Altoona.

It was the morning of December 4th, 2024. Preparations were underway for the annual Christmas tree lighting in Rockefeller Center. Millions of tourists were streaming in from around the country and the world. Just a few blocks away, United Health Group, the parent company of United Healthcare, which is the biggest health insurer in the country, was holding an investors conference at the Midtown Manhattan Hilton. Brian Thompson, the CEO of United Healthcare, was in town from Minnesota to attend. Meanwhile, police say a man at a youth hostel on the Upper West Side of Manhattan was getting ready

to commit murder. And by the way, what you're about to hear is based on law enforcement's sequence of events. After examining hours of surveillance footage and leapfrogging from camera to camera across New York City, they say they've pieced together the whereabouts of this man on this day in 2024. Here's Aaron Katerski again.

It's about 5:30 in the morning before dawn.

Surveillance footage shows that the man leaves the hostel, gets on an e-bike, and rides downtown. He arrives at the Hilton Hotel's north entrance 11 minutes later. He's at West 54th Street between 6th and 7th Avenue.

He's seen walking, seemingly talking on a cell phone. He goes to Starbucks where he buys a water and a granola bar.

A kind bar, police say, to be specific. The details matter here.

And then eventually he circles around back toward the Hilton Hotel. And there is where police say he was lying in wait for his target.

He allegedly lingers outside, masked, wearing a black hooded jacket and a distinctive gray backpack. What happens next will be captured on surveillance cameras, released to the public, and played all over the news. At 6:44 a.m., Brian Thompson comes out of the hotel where he was staying, wearing a crisp blue suit. He crosses 6th Avenue toward the Hilton, where he's set to present in about an hour. Why is he leaving so early? We don't know. Maria Kramer reports on crime and the NYPD for the New York Times and covered this case from the start.

He's all by himself, does not seem to be aware that he's in terrible danger.

Up to this point, the masked man has been ignoring everyone passing by him on the street, but...

It's at that moment that he fixates on Brian Thompson and crosses the street, steps out from behind a car, pulls up a weapon.

He aims at Brian Thompson's back as a CEO is walking away from him and fires. The gun seems to jam, but the shooter appears to clear the malfunctions. In total, he fires at his victim three times from about 10 or 12 feet away.

Striking him in the calf and striking him in the back. And Brian Thompson barely has time to whirl around to see what's happened when he collapses on the sidewalk crumbling against a wall nearby.

It's still early in the morning. There are only a few people out on the street. But in the surveillance footage, you can see one woman on the sidewalk. She sees the shooting and bolts unharmed.

The gunman, however, just seems very calm, very composed, and he walks towards Brian Thompson, who's now dying and bleeding on the sidewalk, and appears to fire his gun again. And then he runs across the street.

It was a prison assassination-style killing.

And this happened on an avenue of fancy hotels and banks, right in the heart of New York City. Right by Radio City Music Hall and Rockefeller Center. Right by Broadway's glitzy theaters and Fifth Avenue's designer stores, like Gucci, Coach, and Chanel.

Now, it's a race against the clock, for emergency personnel to respond to the scene, for the police to investigate, and for the shooter to not get away.

As soon as the shots were fired, the killer escapes 54th Street through an alleyway, a short alleyway, onto West 55th Street, and somewhere hops on a bicycle, an e-bike stashed somewhere nearby.

While the killer is fleeing, police call in the shooting over the radio.

Call from the Midtown North, getting unconfirmed shots fired, possible person shot, Avenue of the Americas.

Police are on the scene by 6:48 a.m. Officers tend to Thompson until an ambulance arrives, eight minutes later. They rush Thompson to a nearby hospital. At the same time, surveillance footage shows the gunman riding into Central Park just six blocks away.

And from there, the trail goes cold. Because as many cameras as there are covering New York City streets, there are not as many in Central Park. And so his trail goes a bit cold until he's seen exiting the park on the bike and pedaling in the Upper West Side of Manhattan.

From there, things unfold quickly.

By 7 a.m., the suspect is seen ditching the bike, according to police. And at 7:04, he's in a cab, heading uptown. And police say he was headed to the bus terminal by the George Washington Bridge.

By 7:12 a.m., Brian Thompson is pronounced dead at Mount Sinai West Hospital.

In a city full of cameras and people and subways, how could someone kill a CEO in the middle of Midtown Manhattan, then just disappear? Where could he have gone? By the time most people are waking up and getting ready to head to work, a national manhunt is underway. The NYPD will work with the FBI and, eventually, members of the small, but now famous, Altoona Police Department in Pennsylvania. Over the course of the search, officers will deploy drones, K-9 units, and scuba divers. They'll pore over surveillance footage from across Manhattan.

They'll sort through hundreds of tips from the public, all to find one man.

Brian Thompson was a 50-year-old corporate executive from Minnesota. In one of the widely circulated pictures of him, he's wearing a light blue collared shirt under a quarter zip black sweater. He's got a closely trimmed beard with some specks of gray on his chin. He was a husband and a father of two. Why would someone shoot him on a Midtown street? The NYPD police commissioners said from the start that it was a deliberate assassination. I want to be clear. At this time, every indication is that this was a premeditated, pre-planned, targeted attack. Thompson wasn't just any CEO.

He was an executive at a health insurance company and one of the biggest companies in the United States. The police cycled through lots of potential theories on the shooter's motive. Was it a vendetta against Brian Thompson personally? Did he owe people money? Was it a drug thing? An alcohol thing?

The police determined there's none of that.

That's chief investigative reporter Josh Margolin, who was also following this investigation for ABC News.

It looks to them, in the earliest hours, that this is something having to do with United Healthcare. Now, they didn't know if it was going to be some sort of a grudge against the company by somebody who, you know, was an insurance customer. Or maybe it was somebody inside the company who had been denied a promotion or some sort of a workplace thing, because that happens also. But they felt confident that this was going to be something associated with Brian Thompson or his workplace.

And that's because of an early clue police say they found at the crime scene.

At the scene, we recover three live 9mm rounds and three discharged 9mm shell casings.

Bullets and shell casings. Here's Aaron Ketersky again.

There were words written in Sharpie on each of them. Delay, deny, depose. One word on each shell casing that had been meticulously handwritten. And instantly, police believed that was meant to send a message.

Delay, deny, depose. Words used by insurance critics to describe how companies avoid paying claims. The words also echo the title of a book, Delay, Deny, Defend: Why Insurance Companies Don't Pay Claims and What You Can Do About It. Maria Kramer, the New York Times reporter, says police determined the message on these shell casings seemed like it was left there by a person with an ideology.

The police have a sense that the person who has done this has a problem with corporate America, specifically the healthcare industry. This is motivated very much by who Brian Thompson was, maybe not as a person, but certainly what he represented as an industry leader.

In addition to those shell casings, investigators find a cellphone, a water bottle, and a Kind Bar wrapper at the scene. They lift DNA and fingerprints, hoping to identify the shooter, but they don't get any hits. They also examine the shooter's demeanor and method. Could he be a hitman? Ultimately, they reject that theory.

First of all, they noticed how far away the shooter was from Brian Thompson. Detectives were saying to us that if this had been somebody who was really a trained assassin, he wouldn't have fired from 10 or 12 feet away. He would have fired from 5 or 7 feet away. He also, not to be gruesome about it, but he took off before he made sure that his victim was dead. And trained assassins would not do that. Like you see in the movies, they're going to make sure that they put the final kill shot into the victim. And that didn't happen.

Also, Josh points out, according to experts, the killer was too sloppy to be a hired hitman. There were too many things left at the scene. Things that could have been traced back to him. A hired assassin wouldn't do that. Authorities also look for clues in the grainy CCTV footage of the shooting. The murder weapon looks to authorities like a really rare gun. So they look up recent sales of this type of gun and spot a sale at a Connecticut gun store. But that lead doesn't go anywhere either. As the days go on, police turn to the public to help identify the killer. The day after the shooting, they start releasing photos of the gunman from around the city.

We're encouraging New Yorkers to go about their daily lives and their daily business, but to be alert. We put the picture out. You're putting the picture out. We want people to take a look. If they see anything suspicious, if they hear anything suspicious, we ask them to call 911, reach out to our detectives.

There are two pictures from the Starbucks in Midtown, taken right before the shooting. The man with his hood over his head, that distinctive gray backpack over his shoulders, and a mask across his face. There's another two pictures of the suspect getting into a cab. His distinct eyes and thick eyebrows are visible above his medical mask. And then there are two photos from the hostel where he was allegedly staying for a few days before the shooting. He's still got his hood on in these pictures, but you can see his whole face. A young face, square jaw, neutral in one, smiling in the other. This moment, when he was checking into the hostel, is the only time we see him unguarded.

The only time he took his mask down, according to police. Some people online speculate he was smiling because he had been flirting with the clerk behind the hostel counter. Others think he was just obliging her, checking his ID.

When the photos are released, people on the internet take notice. They say, he's a little easy on the eyes. They compare him to Jake Gyllenhaal and Zayn Malik. Oh my god. He's fit. He's fit! He's fit! Call everybody back in right [bleep] now! He's attractive! He's attractive! He's attractive! Some people online seem to revel, not just in the suspect's handsomeness, but in the murder itself.

Let's see what the comments have to say. Is the hospital in network? Did he really need to go to the ER? It's not covered. Why didn't he try urgent care? Sending prior authorization denied, claims collections, and prayers to his family.

My condolences are out of network. Or you're about to raise everybody's medical debt or give us universal healthcare.

You are not finding this [bleep]. I promise you that [bleep].

Instead of helping law enforcement hunt for the shooter, some people seem to be rooting for him to get away.

You have this whole community on social media and on the internet that's out there saying they don't want the suspect caught. They're, they're, this, this explosion of sarcasm. They're talking about, he went that away, he went that away. There are people who are saying, I'll hide the guy. I'm him. I'm gonna, you know, help him on the run.

The Altoona McDonald's eventually got swept up in all of this. It was flooded with one-star Yelp reviews about employees talking too much. One person wrote, "More like narc-donald's." While things unfold online, on the ground, officers continue their sprawling search for the suspect.

NYPD deploys an army to Manhattan. They have cops all over the crime scene, in the area around the crime scene, going door to door, talking to people, trying to get video. You have cops by the hostel where he stayed. You have cops uptown, around the area where he comes out of the park and he's seen on the bike. You have scuba divers in Central Park, diving, looking for the bike. Maybe he ditched it into the lake. You have drones overhead, trying to see what they can tell. Is there something over the park? Is there something on the street?

Two days after the shooting, they find something by the Central Park ban shell, a gray backpack. It looks like the one the shooter is wearing in the surveillance footage from outside the Hilton.

And that backpack included a Tommy Hilfiger jacket and Monopoly money. And the play money to detectives seemed like some kind of message the killer was trying to send. Literally toying with investigators, play money.

There's no helpful evidence, nothing tying anyone to the crime. Just the Monopoly money, like something straight out of a Batman comic, with the Riddler leaving a stack of play money behind.

Police are also trying to figure out where the suspect might have fled. They only learn later that he did not leave from the George Washington Bridge uptown bus terminal, that he actually went back downtown on the subway to Penn Station, about seven miles away.

Penn Station is one of the busiest places in New York. You've got trains going to Washington, DC, Boston, Philadelphia.

But in the early days of the manhunt, investigators think if they can figure out where the gunman came from, they can figure out where he went. So they say they rewind surveillance footage all the way back to 10 days before the shooting. And when they do that, they see the gunman arriving in New York through the Port Authority bus terminal. His Greyhound bus originated in Atlanta. The first thing he did when he arrived, according to police, was go straight to the Hilton to, quote, "case the joint." So law enforcement fans out all along the bus route, starting in Atlanta.

They sent police to every single jurisdiction along the way, 13 stops coming up to New York. And they wanted to find out, did anybody see him? When did he get on? When did he get off? Did he say anything to anybody?

From that search, the police tell ABC News privately, they had two possible persons of interest. But they didn't end up arresting either of those people.

Turns out, the police really weren't any closer to catching the shooter than they had been.

No arrest is made. The manhunt continues. The NYPD offers a $10,000 reward. Then the FBI joins in and offers a $50,000 reward. Hundreds of tips come in, but they're no help. One day passes, two days, three, four, five. Still no arrest. Over the weekend, Saturday Night Live pokes fun at the reactions to the shooting.

The guy was murdered in cold blood, and the two main reactions were, "Yeah, well, healthcare stinks." And also, "Girl, that shooter hot."

And pokes fun at the ongoing search for the shooter. Josh Margolin says that after five or six days pass in a search like this, police fear that the hunt might not end until the suspect makes a mistake or they get a lucky break. Well, on the sixth day, they do get a lucky break. That call from the McDonald's in Altoona, Pennsylvania.

Five days after the murder, Officer Detwiler and Officer Fry are in the Altoona McDonald's. They're beginning to question the customer that the manager called about. The one we now know is Luigi Mangione. To officers at the time, Mangione wasn't Mangione yet. He was just a man at a fast food restaurant eating his breakfast, a man who allegedly handed over a fake license when officers asked for his ID. You heard a brief body camera recording earlier in the episode, but the rest of the hour-long encounter hasn't been released to the public yet. But lucky for us, Aaron Ketersky was in court for a pre-trial hearing

where attorneys played and replayed the body camera video in its entirety over and over and over again.

Every angle from every officer that came to the McDonald's in response to this man sitting in the corner, eating his breakfast.

After the man handed over the Mark Rosario ID, Officer Detwiler testified that something crucial happened, something that sort of sealed the deal on the officer's suspicion.

There's a question that Detwiler asks the man, which is, "Have you ever been in New York?" And at that point, the man falls silent and doesn't really answer the question.

Court records say Mangione begins to shake. Watching the video in court, Aaron didn't quite see it that way. He thought Mangione was more mellow than panicked. But he does agree Mangione fell silent.

And that seemed to firm up the officer's suspicion that this is exactly who they're looking for.

According to court documents, Detwiler asked Mangione to put his hands on his head, and the officers frisk him before ordering him to sit back down. He's got a black backpack with him. Officers at this point move the backpack away from Mangione. And then, at around 9:45 in the morning, about 15 minutes into the interaction, the officers establish his real identity.

He says his name, and at first, none of the officers can quite get it. Luigi, Luigi, Luigi, how do you spell it? And then Mangione, Mangi what? And then it's written down by Officer Fry in a small notebook he'd keep in your back pocket.

It's then that officers read Mangione his Miranda warnings. "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in court," etc. They place him under arrest, handcuffed and zip-tie his wrist. And in an ironic twist...

As Luigi Mangione is being formally placed under arrest, the speakers above are blaring Bing Crosby, singing "I'll Be Home For Christmas." I'll be home for Christmas.

You can find... And at that point, it becomes clear that Mangione will not be home for Christmas.

Once police have a name, Luigi Mangione, they run it through their databases.

And things accelerate.

Officers search him again and find nothing.

And then his backpack is moved a bit farther away from him as the officers call supervisors and start to figure out how to handle this guy.

At this point, it's not just Detwiler and Fry dealing with Mangione. Lots of officers show up. Aaron says they're positioned near the restroom. Eventually, they're standing around Mangione, kind of filling in this whole corner where he's seated.

And eventually, there are more than a dozen officers that come to the McDonald's and participate in one way or another.

A substantial portion, nearly a fifth of the entire Altoona Police Department. Next, body camera footage shows that they searched Mangione's backpack. They search him again, too, checking his jacket and frisking him, say defense attorneys.

He's wearing multiple layers of clothing, a big puffy coat, and then a thinner jacket, shirt, undershirt. He's got several pairs of pants on. And one of the officers begins to search the backpack. And as she does, she pulls out a pair of, as she described it, wet gray underwear. And wrapped in that article is a magazine, ammunition.

A loaded gun magazine wrapped in wet underwear. Plus, police say they found approximately $7,800 in cash in his wallet, along with some foreign currency and a passport. They say they searched the backpack right then and there, without getting a warrant, to make sure there wasn't a, quote, "bomb" or anything in here. For a guy who's surrounded by over a dozen cops, getting searched and questioned, Mangione appears to keep a pretty calm demeanor.

He does seem calm. And at one point, as the officers are checking his ID, even as they're arrayed around him, he carries on eating his breakfast and finishes the sandwich, wipes his mouth, crumples up the paper.

Collects his trash and puts it all in the bag.

Eventually, Mangione gets transported to the Altoona Police Precinct and brought to an intake area. And let me tell you, as a defense attorney who's seen the intake process many, many times, in general, it's a pretty miserable scene. Your pockets get emptied, eventually there's some fingerprinting, photos get taken, and then you get put in a jail cell. That loud, clanking door, closing behind you. But Mangione also went through another layer of search.

What's done, the Altoona Police said per their protocol, is effectively a strip search. And so he is made to take off most of the layers of clothing, and eventually all of it, so they can do a thorough search of his person. And then they go through item by item in the backpack and place it all on a table.

And what gets laid out on the table, police say, is really damning stuff.

And those are the items that prosecutors now say prove the crime.

A nine-millimeter handgun with a 3D-printed receiver and a homemade silencer.

There are other items that prosecutors are quite interested in, including scraps of paper where it appears Mangione wrote notes to himself. Prosecutors says some of those notes indicated escape routes where there are crude maps drawn where you could get out of Pittsburgh or Columbus, Ohio, or something like that. There's also a note labeled "to-do list."

According to court documents, the alleged to-do list included notes to alter his appearance: change hat, shoes, pluck eyebrows, and bust a Penn Station. It also said, "Keep momentum, break cam continuity."

As if he knew there were cameras following his movements. And another telling bit of writing, especially to prosecutors, "FBI slower overnight." And these were little reminders, perhaps to himself, the way prosecutors see it, to try and stay on the run and out of sight as long as possible.

There were two other handwritten items that for police were bombshell pieces of evidence. One, the contents of a red, hardcover notebook authorities say Mangione used as his diary.

"The target is insurance. It checks every box," was one phrase. There was another phrase he used called "the parasitic bean counter convention."

The exact language was, "What do you do? You whack the CEO at the annual parasitic bean counter convention. It's targeted, precise, and doesn't risk innocence." And two, a brief letter labeled "to the feds." It references failures of the American healthcare system and says, quote, "I do apologize for any strife or trauma, but it had to be done. Frankly, these parasites simply had it coming."

A judge has since determined that some of the items police say they found in Mangione's backpack will be inadmissible in court. Other items will be allowed. We'll get into all of that in a later episode. Back to December 2024. The Altoona Police Department has got all of these items, but the murder didn't happen in their jurisdiction. They can't charge Mangione for something he allegedly did in New York. They can, however, charge him for crimes he allegedly committed in Pennsylvania. And that's exactly what they do. They charge him with forgery, carrying firearms without a license, possessing instruments of a crime, tampering with records, and false identification to authorities. Mangione has pled not guilty to all of those charges.

And they send word back to New York, "We think we have your person of interest." That's ABC's Josh Margolin again. The New York police, in the middle of a rainstorm, they start racing from Manhattan west on the interstate to get out to Altoona, Pennsylvania. Through the morning, we start hearing that police think it looks good, that they're

optimistic that this is the person they've been looking for. The mayor and the police commissioner have a press conference midday. A good afternoon. And the mayor says that this is a strong person of interest. Someone, a McDonald's employee, did something we ask every American to do. If you see something, say something, but most importantly, do something.

The chief of detectives shares what police knew about their strong person of interest. A male was taken into custody today at Altoona, Pennsylvania this morning. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione. He's a male, 26 years old. He was born and raised in Maryland. We know he has ties to San Francisco, California, and his last known address was Honolulu, Hawaii. Soon, authorities also say there is no indication that Mangione was ever a customer of United Healthcare, something the company confirmed. That's all police knew about Mangione back in the very early days of this case. But quickly, Luigi Mangione became a household name.

And according to journalists and some people who have followed the story closely, a symbol.

What happened was that shooting really laid bare this wound in American culture. They feel like this guy is standing up to a system and they're celebrating it.

How did a young man, who friends say was brilliant and funny, become the person prosecutors say he is? A cold-blooded killer, someone who planned and pulled off a daring public murder.

This kid that I knew from high school is now the most high-profile killer allegedly in the country. It's so surreal.

And how did a well-respected corporate executive, who largely kept to himself, become a victim of what police considered a targeted assassination?

It is unfair that one person, this man who's been murdered, is being held responsible in the public's eyes for the failings of an entire industry and frankly, a system.

A murder's a murder. I cannot reconcile that there is such a thing as a just murder.

What put these two men on a collision course? What put them at the heart of a national frenzy far bigger than the both of them?

Burden of Proof: Luigi Mangione is a production of ABC Audio and 2020, hosted by me, Brian Buckmeyer. Produced by Vika Aronson and Audrey Mostek. Our lead producer is Camille Peterson. Edited by Tracy Samuelson. Music by Evan Viola. Mixing by Bob Mallory. Special thanks to Katie Dendos, Sasha Zlanian, Michelle Margulis, Tanya Simpson, Aaron Katersky, Josh Margolin, Peter Haralambos, Jared Kowski, Jake Lefferman, and Katie Muldowney. Josh Kohat is our Director of Podcast Programming. Eamonn McNiff is our executive producer.