Meta Employee Meltdown : LinkedIn Goes Loco : 32-Hour Work Week Law?

This week on Chad and Cheese, Joel and JT unpack four stories that actually matter if you hire, manage, or look for work. Buckle-up buttercup! Meta just reversed two of its most controversial internal bets: pushing individual contributors back into middle-management seats after the layoffs, and pausing a monitoring program employees believed was training their AI replacements. The hosts dig into what the internal data showed, why “no managers, full surveillance” keeps failing at scale, and what it does to a brand that used to be a résumé flex. Then they hit a Business Insider piece on “LinkedIn lunatics”—the people who post like their career depends on it. JT is in the article. They talk about why the platform now rewards proof of knowledge over old job titles, why companies that police employee posting may have a bigger problem than they think, and where LinkedIn’s real money might be heading next. Who’d You Rather pits two freshly funded plays against each other: Jack and Jill, a conversational-AI recruiter that just raised $40 million, versus Boomerang HR, an alumni-network platform that raised $12.7 million. One host goes big and conversational. The other bets the niche player survives the giants. They close on Bernie Sanders and Mark Takano’s bill to phase the work week from 40 hours to 32 with no pay cut. JT has already run a shorter week. Joel likes the theory and questions whether Slack and after-hours email would let anyone actually unplug. Chapters 00:00 - Introduction and episode overview 04:03 - AI's real threats and opportunities 07:58 - The political landscape of AI regulation 10:08 - The future of AI agents and their impact 12:05 - The evolution of social media and LinkedIn 13:56 - The concept of LinkedIn as a platform for validation 16:10 - The changing nature of employee branding and social media 18:00 - Controversial advertising and brand strategy 20:01 - Upcoming events and travel plans 21:54 - Fantasy football league update 24:03 - Meta's internal policy reversals and lessons 25:57 - The future of work and AI in HR 28:10 - The importance of human oversight in AI systems 29:56 - The potential of AI to monetize individual expertise 31:58 - Who'd you rather? Company comparisons 33:59 - Historical lessons on technology and automation 36:09 - The importance of employee activity on social media 37:58 - The role of AI in recruitment and job seeking 39:55 - The shift from corporate control to individual branding 42:00 - The untapped potential of employee advocacy 43:55 - Legal and ethical considerations in AI and surveillance 46:03 - The coming digital renaissance and new monetization models 48:01 - Predictions for the future of AI and work 50:05 - The impact of new legislation on work hours 52:12 - The benefits of a shorter workweek and flexible work policies 54:03 - The cultural shift towards work-life balance 56:06 - The importance of boundaries and boundaries management 58:03 - Humor and light-hearted moments in the discussion 59:56 - Close

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Meet Dave. Dave's resume says he's customer centric, a point of sale systems expert and a people leader. Reality check, Dave's resume was written by AI and AI applied to thousands of jobs while Dave was on his couch binging episodes of Jackass all day.

• 0:20Speaker 00

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• 0:50Speaker 01

  Have you done the pickleball thing yet? That's apparently the next.

• 0:53Speaker 02

  I know two different people that tore ACLs playing pickleball. I'm not a fan right now. I don't need to be ripping anything.

• 1:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, you and Chad. Oh, yeah. Chad's a paddle guy. Pickleball is for punks and suckers.

• 1:07Speaker 03

  I don't know about you, but I'm having a wet wine. Wet wine. You want a wet wine? I think we should all have a wet wine. I'll have a wet wine. You have a wet wine? Wet wine.

• 1:20Speaker 03

  Wet wine.

• 1:23Speaker 04

  Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Soash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  Ah, yeah, I'm taking it back to the old school because I'm an old fool who's so cool. Hey, boys and girls, it's the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host Joel. The AI apocalypse is a hoax, Cheeseman.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  And I'm JT, Savvy B and Summer Corn O'Donnell.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  And on this episode of HR's most dangerous podcast, meta melts down, LinkedIn goes loco, and who'd you rather? Let's do it. It's commercial time.

• 2:15Speaker 00

  Okay, face it. Recruitment marketing is broken. 70% of paid recruitment media goes wasted. 93% of candidates bounce off your job ads before they even apply for the job. And this is not a talent problem. No, it's not a data problem. It's a targeting and experience problem. The beauty of this is companies aren't trying to fix it. They're transforming it.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah.

• 2:40Speaker 00

  With up to 80% more high quality applicants, 40% reduction in spend and 50% less recruiter time spent, they're realizing what's possible with recruitment marketing that actually works. So how'd they do it? Well, they chose Jovio, an AI-led, high-performance recruitment marketing platform built to eliminate waste and drive more results. With Jovio's AI agents, your job ads reach the right candidates while your career site, conversational AI and application process drive better candidates and conversions. What about those qualified candidates you've already bought and paid for and they're wasting away in your ATS? Well, Jovio also reengages

• 3:23Speaker 00

  them. Want to learn more about Jovio? Cool. Just go to jovio.com. That's J O V E O dot com. It's showtime.

• 3:34Speaker 01

  This. JT, it's been a minute. How are you?

• 3:37Speaker 02

  I know. What's up? Good summer? Obviously, if you're drinking wet wine.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Well, I just, yes, when I hear that, I think about you. I think about you like in New England on a lakefront somewhere, enjoying a white wine. White wine. It's just, that makes me laugh every time I see it. Yeah, summer's good. I've updated folks on the show, but did a little Europe thing, enjoyed the backyard and, you know, reading, reading Barons and listening to Beastie Boys most of the summer. Living the old, old dad, middle-aged guy life. How's, how's your summer?

• 4:17Speaker 02

  Good. It was short. It was busy. Improved the golf game, a lot of outdoor time, but it's been busy. Work's been busy, busier than I expected.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Say more about that. Are you taking lessons? Are you doing some augmented practice at Dix? What are you doing?

• 4:32Speaker 02

  I joined a club, right? So I'm a golf member and I treated it like a-

• 4:36Speaker 01

  That's a New England requirement, isn't it? You have to join a club of some sort.

• 4:40Speaker 02

  I did, but I treated it like a gym membership. I literally was there six days a week, either playing or at the range, just working, working, working on the game. And it worked, right? I was like, this is my first year ever playing. And so I'm happy and I'm playing in my first Pro-Am September 28th. So my first competition.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  Playing in your first Pro-Am. Like, what does that mean?

• 4:58Speaker 02

  So the pro of our club, he's obviously a registered pro, takes us to a tourney. It's him and three amateurs. So I'm one of the amateurs on the team. And we compete against all these other club pros, you know, pros and their three people. And so it's three ladies and our pro and we're gonna go and we're gonna try to kick some butt. I'll keep you posted.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Does everyone hit the same amount of holes or is it like a relay where I get one hole, you get the next hole?

• 5:23Speaker 02

  No, we all play 18 and our scores count, right? And we all have handicaps. So that's the other thing. I had to keep a handicap this summer because we're all handicapped and then play. And then they have, you know, this little computer that figures out which team scored the best based on their handicap.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Look at us doing like old people, empty nest stuff, learning the golf.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  Huge business now. No, the ladies are getting into golf. Golf is a changed game.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  Golf is huge.

• 5:46Speaker 02

  It's a young person's, it is. It's a young person's sport now too. So I'm just getting younger, dude.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  Have you, have you done the pickleball thing yet? That's apparently the next.

• 5:53Speaker 02

  I know two different people that tore ACLs playing pickleball. I'm not a fan right now. I don't need to be ripping anything.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, you and Chad. Oh, yeah. Chad's a paddle guy. Pickleball is for, for punks and suckers. So I had two topics for banter I wanted to run by you after checking in on summer. So the big narrative this week is AI is going to kill us. We need, we need to pause. Trump is saying like full steam ahead. What's your take? We've been through some catastrophization in our life and things are going to kill us from nuclear, nuclear weapons to everything. So what's your take on AI?

• 6:33Speaker 02

  I did what I think probably most people did. I went to AI and said, tell me how you're gonna kill me.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Everyone's done that, yeah.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  Everyone did it. Like walk me through this. Like, and it came down with two paths. It said, one, like you've seen in every movie, we're going to get smarter than you and take you out. But two, more likely, people, our technology is going to get in the wrong hands and people are going to do bad things with it, right? Like, so I was like, all right, I get the basics. This is where you're going with it. Then there's me who now wants to think 10 steps ahead. And all of a sudden this week, what is up? Cyber stocks. Like all the stocks in technology that would help with this is through the roof. And you're like, so then I go, is this media all timing? Like, what's going on? Like, we've known this for a while, but why this week? Why now are we suddenly deciding? All because of one guy, you know, writing his resignation letter and claiming there's a 10% chance we're done

• 7:24Speaker 02

  in, at the end of the decade, right? Like, that's what stirred this whole thing. And I just, I don't, I don't know. Of course, there's a real threat. I get it. I'm not saying there isn't a real threat, but I just, I don't trust all this anymore. Like everyone else. I just, I don't know what to believe.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  So your next prompt should have been, if I were going to make a lot of money on this whole AI fear thing, what would I do? And the first step would be like AI, then data centers and then security. And yeah, the grift, the grift is real. I just, so historically, I mentioned nuclear weapons and you and I are both of the age where like we both remember the day after, the TV show that showed nuclear Holocaust. We've obviously been through COVID. We've been through climate change, global warming. I can remember when there was going to be another ice age, believe it or not. I can remember that. So you and

• 8:21Speaker 01

  I have both been through a lot of like, we're all going to die moments. And not that there isn't bad things that happen, like wars do happen, like all this stuff happens, but until, something has to happen like with, with Three Mile Island or Chernobyl. Like there has to be a major thing that happens before anyone goes, oh shit, we need to do something about it. Now, the, the, the warning is we should do something before that happens, but human nature is until, until we're shown the, the horror of it, we don't know. Now, is AI smart enough to like lull us into a false sense of security and like slowly boil us until we're like, holy shit, we're gone? I don't know. But yeah, I tend to be more

• 9:06Speaker 01

  optimistic about most of this stuff, although it does go beyond my pay grade of understanding these agents and these agents swarming into stuff. And that's scary. I saw Terminator, just like everybody else.

• 9:20Speaker 02

  Right. Two things come to mind when you say that. We, we never consistently take our vitamins, but we always take the aspirin when we're in pain, right? The vitamins could be preventative. We wait till the pain. So you're right. I'm with you on that 100%. And the other thing is predictions are useless. You know, it's always the thing that we didn't predict that surprises us. So we should be more concerned about what we're not realizing. We're so focused on this could happen, but it's going to be something totally different than we expected, right?

• 9:48Speaker 01

  So it's also a political, you mentioned the money thing, but also politically, this is one of the few issues where both parties seem to be in agreement, whether it's data centers, whether it's just AI. Cause I don't think people are seeing the benefit of it. I think it's this sort of-

• 10:04Speaker 02

  Well, the other thing that came out, another theory, and I would agree with this one too, was even AI saying we should slow the roll because all the predictions they made about their earnings aren't coming to fruition. So they're missing earnings marks. They're missing predictions on revenues. So when you can turn around and go, well, we had to slow the roll. Sorry, that's why we didn't make our numbers.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good point. You can tell your, your investors, hey, you know, we had to slow it down because of the government. There's a, do you listen to Diary of a CEO?

• 10:32Speaker 02

  Not all of them, but I do love Steve.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Okay, there's, there's a guy recently, I don't, I don't remember his name, but he is, he is a critic, to say the least, of these businesses and where they're going and sort of the, the, the roundabout of money that's funding this whole thing and that it's a house of cards. So if you, if you get a chance, I recommend, uh, Diver CEO talk, uh, AIs is destined to fail or whatever. Like these business models are not great, to say the least. Um, so yeah, we'll, we'll see how it, how it goes. But politically, I think it's something that, uh, if Trump is on, like, we're full steam ahead, I think it's a real political winner. If you get on the side of like, let's slow it down and, uh, and, uh, belts and suspenders.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  I'll say this, a year ago, we were kind of talking about AI. Now on this podcast, it could be a drinking game. Oh, said AI, drink.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  White wine. I'm gonna have a white wine.

• 11:26Speaker 02

  Right. It's all we talk about. So it's definitely here. There's something going on.

• 11:30Speaker 00

  Here at the Chad G's podcast, one thing that we love is obviously you watching, but also like and subscribe.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  So the other thing I wanted to get your opinion on is, uh, I know you're an iPhone user. Uh, what, uh, the iPhone Duo, what's, what's your take? Are you going to buy the, the foldable phone? Are you, is it a winner? Is it no big deal?

• 11:51Speaker 02

  Uh, you know, I am one of those people that always likes to wait for version two, three, four, or five, you know? So to me, I want to watch and see. It's interesting. I just, I'm not in any rush to have one. The one I have works fine, you know? So show me reasons why I have to have it. I'll think about it. But for now, it's, I just think it's a novelty. What do you think?

• 12:09Speaker 01

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you my take. And I know that you're, you're, you're a student of the human condition. So I'm curious about your take on this. So I've always thought that part of the appeal of the iPhone is, um, a little bit sexual, a little bit of like, you'll want to mate with me because I've made good decisions in my life. Like the whole Apple brand historically has been, I'm creative, I'm intelligent, I'm a little bit edgy. Um, I have the money to spend on this. Like when the original iPhone came out, it was $500 and Steve Ballmer famously said, no one's going to buy a $500 phone when they can have a $99, you know, uh, Microsoft phone or whatever that was. So, so if you had an iPhone, it was like, ooh, yeah, a little bit of money, have a little bit of,

• 12:52Speaker 01

  uh, you know, clout. You have, you have something going on in your life. Now, over the decades, I think that brand has been diminished because if you have a 2018 iPhone, it looks about the same as the 2026 iPhone. Like there's not a ton of difference and I can buy the five-year-old phone a lot cheaper than I can now. So my, my take on this is people will buy this thing because if they can pull it out at a restaurant or a club or a conference and have that look of like, oh shit, they got something going on. They got two grand to spend on this thing. They're, you know, they're creative, they're like, I think it's going to be a, like, hey, check me out thing, uh, that I, Apple hasn't sort of embraced

• 13:37Speaker 01

  in a long time. So I think, I think it's going to be a huge hit. Um, the early numbers we have is that the, the other options of phones, like the regular ones, the sales are pretty low. The demand is pretty low because I think everyone is waiting to, for this big phone to come out so that they can get it and look like a, look like a baller again, like they did in 2007.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  I have two thoughts on it. First of all, the group that were Apple fanatics, right? Waiting in the line for everything. They're aging. Like you said, that brand is associated with a generation. They're aging. There's not as many of them. Doesn't surprise me that the phone sales are down. Cause I think everybody's like, whoa, wait, flip phones. We're going back to like, everything all is new again. So they're watching.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  What I said was demand for the, so there's a whole lineup of these phones and only one of them is foldable. The demand for the regular ones is low. My, my take is that they're all waiting to buy the foldable.

• 14:32Speaker 02

  Okay. So we'll see, we'll see that prediction when it comes out. But I still stand by the idea that these, there are the Apple obsessed. And so the way they describe it is it's not that I have discretionary funds. It's that my hobby, my life, my world is wrapped up in this Apple identity. I love Apple. I nerd out on it. Therefore I buy it no matter what. So I don't think it's a, to me, it's not a sign of, of the rich. Normally when I see somebody with, I'm like, you have Apple everything, don't you? And they're usually nodding yes. So early adopters, first thing. Second thing is what you referred to, the kids call LARPing, living as a rich person. So in social media, there's this whole thing about LARPing. Everybody knows when somebody's LARPing. And so I think you're not.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Is that like maxing?

• 15:14Speaker 02

  Kind of. Looks maxing, looks maxing is, you know, trying to maximize how attractive you are. But LARPing is like really big in social world where they're all claiming they're driving these cars and flying in private planes and it's all a bunch of hoax. Like they're renting them for the day and taking this pic, right? That's LARPing. And I think there's going to be a lot of people going, yeah, you can't even afford your rent, but you bought that thing to, to LARP, that you got that phone, right? So there, to with the younger generations, I don't think they'll be rushing for the phone. Like I said, I think there's a very certain group of people. I think it'll work against you.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  So I'm glad you said that because I, I talked to my daughter who's, uh, 17, she's a teenager. So she's got her finger in the pulse of this stuff more than I do. And there is, there is a desire with young people to embrace the analog, the, the, the ways of the old, right? Like whether it's 90's style, like, you know, flannels back and, uh, 80's music or whatever it is. And I asked her about this phone, like, oh, is this cool? Like, is this something, if you could afford, like you would. And, and her take was simply, it's just too much. It's just more of this sort of trend of high tech, AI, like the world, the kids are, are, are abandoning that. And so there's actually a, a new phone,

• 16:30Speaker 01

  I think it's called Nothing, the Nothing phone, uh, that's appealing to young people. And it's sort of a no frills phone. I know foldable phones or flip phones are kind of coming back. So I,

• 16:43Speaker 02

  See?

• 16:43Speaker 01

  I think we're going to go back to our, you know, our TikTok feeds and our busty Latinas and bugfights, but I could be, I could be wrong. I could be outdated. I don't know.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  Well, ask your daughter about LARPing. She knows.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  I'll ask her about LARPing. Let's get to shout outs.

• 16:57Speaker 00

  Is it time for shout outs?

• 17:00Speaker 01

  All right. JT, our shout outs are sponsored by Proven Base because everyone loves free bourbon.

• 17:08Speaker 00

  Oh, I love chicken cock. I do.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  That's right. Thanks to Proven Base. Chad and I were able to send out a bottle of chicken cock, one for me, one from Chad to a lucky winner. Uh, you gotta go to chadcheese.com/free to get it. Special thanks to our friends at Proven Base. They're making miracles happen and they're helping you find talent that others can't reach. So JT, I was a kid of the eighties, seventies and I, I loved ads. When I was a kid, I wanted to be like an ad exec. Uh, I wasn't smart enough. I wasn't creative enough. I was in this no zone for that, but I've always loved where's the beef, 1984, you know, uh, Apple commercials. Like

• 17:52Speaker 01

  I, I loved the periods where a show aired and 70% of the country watched that same show. We all watched the same ads. Like we all talked about the same stuff. The internet and everything has become so customized that your ads are different than my ads are different than Chad's ads are different than, like, everyone gets different ads. So I miss the days of the big ad. The, the Super Bowl is great for that, right? We get the ads that everyone watches. So whenever there's a period where like, oh man, a big ad just showed up, everyone's talking about it. Like, I love it. So I don't know if you've seen this, but, uh, Sydney Sweeney is doing a provocative ad, uh, for Novig where she's

• 18:33Speaker 01

  an equity holder. Um, and it, and it's really, it's really stirring the pot, uh, with everybody. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna show this if you haven't seen it, uh, for our, for our listeners. I apologize. You won't get the full effect, but, uh, those of you on YouTube will appreciate this more than the audio.

• 18:56Speaker 05

  Thinking of sports? Prove it. Novig is just sports. So they wanted to show just sports. You can trade this sport and this sport. How about this? This sport too. Or this? Sports, sports, sports, sports, sports, sports, sports. You can't trade this. I just look in here. No betting on wars or deaths and no politics. Just you, your takes on sports.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  So just for the record, JT, there was a shorter version of that, of that ad, but I thought the full minute was really necessary to get the, to get the point across. So I,

• 19:55Speaker 02

  Joel, you're so predictable.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. I love Sydney Sweeney. I love sports. I love the big ad. I love the controversy. I think this is great. It's got people talking. Look, 70% of sports bettors are men. It's a lot of, let's be honest, women that are mad about this ad. And I don't think it, like, Novig should not care because their audience is men that love sports and betting money. And they, I think they hit the nail on the head, but you might have a different perspective.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, sadly I don't. I'm sure you wanted me to debate it out of it. And I'll probably have a lot of women in my inbox after this, but you know, I'm, I'm a businesswoman and I am heavily into social media. I, like you, I'm more fascinated about the psychology behind it. We're in a time right now where people, you know, shock is, holds eyeballs, right? Like we, we all have social ADD. And so companies realize this and have to build things that are shocking. I think they're, they are rolling the dice. You have some very recently, you have a lot of brands who have a problem because their ads went, didn't land correctly. I don't think that this is the one. Like you said, they know their

• 21:08Speaker 02

  audience. Nobody's succeeding from using Novig because of it, you know? And so she knows her audience. She's invested in it. She understands exactly what she's doing and that she's using her assets. You know, I just, to me, this is, this is capitalism. This is advertising. This is what's going on right now. If anything, I think that one lands way better than the stuff I've seen. Like you know how I feel about Good Good Golf and Callaway, who, you know, really blew it with a domestic violence video, you know, versus this. So, um, you know, I think you do have to try to find a way to swing for the fences and you're going to rattle some people. The fine line of rattling versus having everybody cancel your brand is there, but I don't, they're not going to cancel

• 21:51Speaker 02

  this brand. I think, I think they accomplished the goal.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  You go big, like they're competing with FanDuel and DraftKings and Vegas and like, so they, this is going big. And I think they crushed it. And I just, I love it. I know it upsets people, but I think that's the point.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  It was. It was designed, it was designed to upset people, but it also was exactly for the audience it was intended. Wow. You know, and so, right, that, to your point. So yeah, it's fascinating.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  Two thumbs up for Sydney Sweeney. That's what I'm talking about.

• 22:19Speaker 04

  Playing simple. I mean, I wake up with more and I piss excellent.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  All right. Bring us down with your shout out.

• 22:25Speaker 02

  So I was laughing so hard because you were like, what's your shout out? I'm like, I'm not going to tell you, but I was between two. So the funny thing is, the first one I was going to do, and real quick, shout out to season four of Ted Lasso and his ladies team. So you want to keep it in the ladies theme? I am loving this season. If you're loving the season, message me. I just, there's so much to it. I keep rewatching episodes because I love it so much. But the big one I want to hit, and this is really funny, shout out to the game Hitster. If you have not played Hitster, and I'm obviously not endorsing them anyway, you need to play. And it, it ties into what you're talking about. You talked about eighties and what you loved. Hitster is a game where you have to guess the year of the song. So you use your app, the song starts playing, you're supposed to guess the song, but most importantly, you're supposed to decide like where on a

• 23:08Speaker 02

  timeline it is. So if you've got 1997 down and you get a song, you have to decide if it's before or after that, then that card goes down and you decide where. So the more cards you get, the harder it is to fill in. Okay. When I tell you, it's been a long time. I love games, but it's been a long time since I've played a game where I'm obsessed and everyone can play. Like every generation can play because what you do is, like you said, you, you hear the song and you're like, what was happening that year? What do I remember? What does the music sound like? Like what ads were playing? What like, like you start reminiscing, like everything. And it is such a joyful, fun game. And again, your whole, your, there's all the way up to 2025. So young people play it and win just as much

• 23:49Speaker 02

  as our generation. Highly, highly recommend folks grab Hitster for your next family party or friend party, and then message me because you're going to love it.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Okay. I've never heard of this thing. So let me, let me get some clarification here. It's a board game. It's not like an app.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  It's a card game.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  It's a card game. Okay. So it's a real world game in real life. It's not an app. Okay. So you get a bunch of cards. And then how do you play the song?

• 24:15Speaker 02

  So imagine this. So you download the Hitster app on your phone and there's just this big stack of cards with QR codes on the top. That's all you see. So if your turn's up, Joel, I go like this, the song starts blasting. It reads the QR code, starts blasting. You sit there and you go, all right, I think that's, you know, Cyndi Lauper, time after time, I'm going to go, it's, you know, I've got 1992 here. It's before 92, I'm putting it here. And then we flip over and see if you're right. If you're right, you go down and you get to keep it. If you're wrong, you're out and next player.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  Okay. And so, so you choose, is it before this year or after this year? It's not like a window. It's not like 81 to 85 and then 86.

• 24:54Speaker 02

  Yes, it is over time. Cause the more cards you get, the more times you win. Now you might have 82, 85, 87, 91. And you, that song comes up and you're like, was that 86 or was that 89? And you're guessing. So the more cards you get, the more, the shorter the time spans get for you and the harder it is for you to get more cards.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  Do you get more points as it gets harder?

• 25:18Speaker 02

  First person to 10, first person to 10 cards straight. And it, so it's really, you will freak for this and your whole family will love it. So you're welcome in advance, everyone. Go get Hitster. It is so good.

• 25:32Speaker 01

  Hitster. Okay.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  Hit, H I T S T R.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  Walmart, Target.

• 25:36Speaker 02

  Anyplace you can get games, Amazon, Hitster. You got it.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  I heard it here first. All right, all right, all right.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  All right. Uh, what's next? Let's get to some events here.

• 25:50Speaker 06

  Events. Where are we going, boys?

• 25:52Speaker 01

  So everyone knows our events and our travel sponsored by the good folks at Shaker Recruitment Marketing, who we will see in Nashville next week, along with you and Mo and Chad and Cheese and everybody else. So, uh, if you're going to Rec Fest, come by and say hi. We'll be at the disrupt stage. You guys are at Innovation, I think.

• 26:11Speaker 02

  We are running.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  You have a spiel on what you're doing at Rec Fest.

• 26:15Speaker 02

  Mo and I are co-hosting Innovation Stage Day One. 10 amazing groups coming on stage. Um, it's, it's going to be a good one. And, um, I didn't realize how competitive Nashville Rec Fest is. Like people are throwing down on the link, well, on LinkedIn, they're like, not like somebody, look, there's a lot of stages, but just for the record, ours is the best. I'm like, oh, those are fighting words. Okay, let's go. Right? So that, that little banter's been going around. On day two, I am on a panel about ATS Systems and I am hosting a panel, um, as well. So, um, yeah, busy couple of days. I'm excited for it.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  Okay. We tried to get Sydney Sweeney to come to our stage, but that, that was a no-go, unfortunately. She was not, she was not into that at all. Uh, okay. So in addition to Nashville, um, also we'll, we'll be doing, uh, hopefully the show, the weekly show live. Uh, I mean, we'll record it live and it'll go publish, but like, it should be us four talking about the show and what's going on. Um, so that'll be fun. And then October 6, Chad and I will be in Amsterdam, uh, for the Recruitment Congress. Um, if you're in Europe, it's a must see, in my opinion. Go to e-recruitment-congress.com to get in on that. And then on the 12th of October, Chad and I will be at the Future of Frontline

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Summit in Vegas, uh, that piggybacks on the Workday Rising Conference, uh, which is the, the Paradox, uh, conference. So a lot of travel coming up in the next few weeks. And then I'm taking like, I'm chilling. I'm chilling through the holidays, Halloween with the kids. Like that's, that's all, that's all, all good. And also playing some fantasy football. That's right. That sounds means. It's time for an update on our fantasy football league sponsored by the good folks at Factory Fix. Well, JT, week one is in the books. Here's your leaderboard. Number one, Jarrett Haldersma. Number two, Nicholas Tiziak. Hopefully I'm saying that one right too. I know I'm getting this one right. Number three is Scott

• 28:15Speaker 01

  Clark for Nick Livingston. Number five, Mackenzie Mad Dog Maitland, who won the league last year. She's off to a good start kicking my ass this week. Uh, number six, we got Molly Sly. Seven, Dejean Amare. Number eight, Desiree Golday. Number nine, Bosco Vujatovic. Number 10 is Chad So wash, followed by me and the biggest loser in week one goes to Ben Kuntz. Thanks for, thanks for, thanks for saving me from the basement, uh, Ben. But that is another update on fantasy football sponsored by our friends at Factory Fix. Let's get to some topics. Should we?

• 29:03Speaker 01

  All right, JT, this week Meta reversed course on two of its most controversial internal initiatives. Number one, asking individual contributors to step back into middle management roles after cutting thousands. And number two, indefinitely suspending a highly unpopular employee monitoring program that had sparked a worker revolt. This is not the AI utopia we were promised, JT. Break down your thoughts on the my bad at Meta.

• 29:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I just, this is going to be the new mantra, right? Now we're going to see all middle management start returning. Not everyone, but start seeing this all back because once one of the biggies is publicly says mea culpa, I was wrong. You know, first we have this whole, okay, we laid everybody off for AI. Now we're bringing some back, you know, so should it surprise us? Of course not, because I love how they thought like, oh, all adults will play just fine by themselves. Everyone could just be fine with no management. That's not how the world has ever worked. We know that. It's just not how it is. So it doesn't surprise me at all on that initiative. I'm more excited about the second one being rolled back. I mean, what were they thinking? This is literally with that whole monitoring

• 30:15Speaker 02

  thing, you know, it used to be, you would talk and say, getting hired at Facebook, getting hired at Meta was everything, like, get that on your resume, and you were set. And you and I talk a lot about this, like, what are the career things that can kind of give you an edge? And it was forever and ever and ever, saying that you worked for Meta was it. People are leaving it in droves. The best of the best are leaving. It does not hold the same cachet anymore. It does not. It just people, in fact, if you're sticking around there and you're not going other places with everything that's going on, people are like, why? What? Are you not good enough to go someplace else? So you gotta be careful.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Does OpenAI not want you? What's wrong with you?

• 30:50Speaker 02

  My point, my point, the best are jumping ship. And so Meta's in trouble. They've, they've had this image issue for a while. It's constantly getting more magnified. They're not going to get the same talent that they used to get. And that's, you know, that's what happens.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I worked for an organization once that was very

• 31:10Speaker 01

  linear, right? It was, there is no hierarchy. Everything is horizontal in nature. And it just, it just doesn't work that well. And, you know, there's, there's a reason why the military is a hierarchy, because it kind of works, like, taking direction. And so while AI can optimize tasks, it really cannot replace the complex human leadership required to coordinate, like, massive products and projects and, and the number of people that are into that. And I think that the dream of AI is that we wouldn't need people to manage that, but we actually do. If you just give everybody a gun and say, go out and defeat the enemy,

• 31:52Speaker 01

  it doesn't really work very well, because everyone has their own sort of agenda. Interestingly, the internal data revealed that extremely lean structure resulted in depleted teams and a 40% increase in technical incidents and actually slower overall development. So if you just have, everyone's an island, it doesn't work out very well. You need managers to do that. And I think that's interesting. The surveillance part, it's not only that you're watching employees, and I went off on this last week, that I think if you work for a big company, just, just understand that everything you do is going to be tracked, whether it's for productivity, whether it's for, are you misbehaving? Are you doing what you're supposed to do? Like, that is, and I think for most companies, it is, it is

• 32:36Speaker 01

  a reality. People understand all my emails are read, all my slacks are read, everything that I do on a company device is going to be tracked. The problem with the Meta thing is that people were training their replacement. They were basically saying, like, we're going to look at your Google activities, your LinkedIn, your Slack, like, everything even outside of Meta, to then train your replacement slash AI to do your job. Well, shockingly, there was a revolt about that. Employees realized that they were being replaced, or they were training their replacement. The revolt was kind of funny. There were like internal memes, apparently. There were like old school posters put in the bathroom where, where no one, you

• 33:19Speaker 01

  know, no one's watching us in the bathroom. So like, posters were being put in the bathroom, like, fight the AI and do this. And we had, they had 1800 cup, or 1800 employees sign a, sign a petition against this. They have since paused what they're doing. I can't imagine that they ever bring this thing back or try to bring it back in a new, a different way. This was a bad idea from the start. You're going to be surveilled at work. But if it's surveillance to replace you, I think that's a line that most people aren't willing to, to cross.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think what this really showcases is that big companies, like, they have to put such crazy things in place because of the sheer size of them. And the one prediction that I will make is that AI is switching. And no company's ever said, I want more employees, right? And put, humans are unpredictable, stuff happens. So I understand the theory. I think we're going to see a lot.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  It's a have to.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  I think we're going to see leaner companies, because smaller companies can be more agile, but you will need management. Like you said, I just hope we see a lot more of them, you know, so everybody can work for a smaller, leaner, more interesting company as opposed to these big companies where you're a cog and where this kind of stuff goes down.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  And more, and more, like, I get the productive productivity side. And I think if, if a CEO can understand, look, have AI help me understand where are my holes? Where is productivity lacking? And then I can go and understand that better. Where are my high performers? Where's my, like, what, someone's in a role that maybe needs to be somewhere else. And I definitely understand HR understanding, okay, in the correspondence of our, of our daily activities, who is a risk? Who is like, who, who might bring a machete to work and hat, you know, hack up some people? Like, I understand wanting to know that. I just think what the line is, is, is something that companies have to be really aware of and not cross any lines.

• 35:13Speaker 02

  Agreed.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  Also, I think what agents do, going back to the AI catastrophe and apocalypse, companies have to realize, like, what are agents doing? Like, the agents that got out of the sandbox and hacked up a huging face, that's a real thing. And look, there was a great example, I think, on Pivot this week, where if, if I have a pit bull, and that pit bull chews up my neighbor's kid, you know who's responsible for that? Me. My, my dog's not going to jail like I'm going to jail, or something's happening to me. So these companies, like, who's responsible

• 35:58Speaker 01

  for agents going nuts? And who's tracking all this activity? Companies are going to be held liable for this. So they better track not only what their human employees are doing, but what the hell our agents are doing, because that could come back to bite them in the ass.

• 36:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have, we've built human review into everything. Like, we're heavily AI functioning right now in this company, my company. But there is human review in every critical stage for that exact reason. Because it does hallucinate, it does go rogue, it does give the advice we told it not to give. There still needs to be checks and balances. And so, you know, to me, that's never going to go away. But the, the things that's allowed us to do that would have taken not just four people, not just 40 people, but, you know, the stuff that we're building now would have taken hundreds of people, is so exciting to me. So, you know, you take the good with the bad. This opportunity is amazing, but we're still really careful about the human review aspect.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  Well, you know what I say about the choices we make as humans and organizations?

• 36:59Speaker 02

  60% of the time, it works every time.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  All right, guys, we're going to take a quick break. If you're not following us on your podcast platform of choice or on YouTube, please do so. And we've been stuck on 88 reviews on the, on Apple forever. So if you're listening on Apple, give us a review. I want to hit 100 before 2027. I want to hit, we need 12 more reviews, people. We need 12 more on Apple. So please, take your folded phone out, open it up, and give us a review on, on Apple. We'll be right back.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Hey, boys and girls. It's Joel Cheeseman here from the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Guys, I've seen pretty much every AI recruiting tool out there. I give my time and money to a very small few, and I'm here to tell you that I'm an investor in Alex AI because this tech actually delivers. Look, if you're still drowning in automated resume slop, ghosting candidates and wasting hours on first round screens, it's time to hire with Alex. Alex is the AI recruiter that's actually solid, which means it doesn't sound like a robot from a 1984 sci-fi flick.

• 38:04Speaker 03

  Shall we play a game?

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Alex interviews candidates on video or phone, asks smart follow-ups, takes killer notes and surfaces the best ones so your team can focus on hiring top talent instead of chasing ghosts. If you're scaling a team and tired of the same old pain, go check out Alex right now at alex.com. That's A-L-E-X.com and tell them Joel sent you. And right now, you can get a free copy of the book by Alex founder Aaron Wang titled The 10x Recruiter. Just go to alex.com/chese. That's A-L-E-X.com/cheese. That's right, a free book on the principles of AI and talent acquisition. And all you need to do is head to alex.com/chese right

• 38:50Speaker 01

  now. Guys, alex.com. Interview everyone. Hire the best.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Linked and lunatics. I love that. Business Insider published an article entitled, Why Becoming a LinkedIn Lunatic Might Save Your Career. It features our very own JT O'Donnell and Maureen, which is very exciting. Here's my, here's my summary of the article, but you were in it. So I want, I want you to comment on this. So in a world of quiet hiring, people need to be active on LinkedIn while not looking too active by their employer. And this is in light of LinkedIn cracking down on AI slop after initially saying, hey, we love the AI slop. We'll help, we'll actually help you write it. By the way, Chad and I are

• 39:35Speaker 01

  never in Business Insider stories, but whatever. JT, you were in this thing. You read it for sure. What are your thoughts on the LinkedIn lunatics?

• 39:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was really excited. So first of all, Amanda Hoover is an awesome journalist over at Business Insider. You should read some of her other work because she really explores all sides. And that title, I laughed because she, she perfectly baited people with it, right? LinkedIn lunatic, like just nailed it. It comes from a Reddit thread where they're pulling the cringiest LinkedIn posts and putting them all over there for people to laugh at and make fun of, which I think is hilarious. For me, what I've been trying to explain to people for the longest time is in the same way, I like to give people the opportunity to grow. You know, like you want to believe people are growing and changing to being different. I think you need to think about LinkedIn as a platform that has grown and evolved as well. You know, this is my 20th year on that platform. I started out

• 40:29Speaker 02

  in 2006. I've watched it change many, many, many times. I've seen them go in one direction, pivot back to a different direction. Some of it I've loved, some of it I hate, I've hated. But ultimately where they've landed right now is they are the one place where you can go and validate that you are real and that you know what you know. And we live in an age now where doing great at your job so that everybody that works with you knows you're great is useless. Because when you lose your job, they can't help you get it at the next one. And nobody trusts resumes anymore because they're all fake. So this platform is giving people a place to authenticate. You're going to see more things like, you know, you've already seen them. They've partnered with Clear where you can validate that you're a real person. They are talking deeply about validating recruiters. So, hey, only respond

• 41:10Speaker 02

  to recruiters that are, you know, have the checkmark, so to speak. They're the one platform that's the furthest along in allowing this to go. And what's been most exciting to me about being a LinkedIn lunatic, by the way, I am going to AI myself in a T-shirt that says I'm a LinkedIn lunatic. Get ready for it. But they, people who got pigeonholed based on their past work experience are getting jobs in new fields and in new industries because they'll be able to document their knowledge and show that they know what they're talking about in spite of not necessarily having the track record. And they're surfacing in the results because the algorithm is based on relevancy and frequency, not on your job titles anymore. And this is what people do not get. So if you've ever wanted to change careers, or if you want a shot at someplace that you would have never had a shot at before,

• 41:55Speaker 02

  this is how you're doing it. And people have confirmation bias. You've already decided you hate LinkedIn. So anything you can do to hate LinkedIn more, fine, but you're missing out on this very powerful career thing that's happening right now. And trust me, the moment there's something other than LinkedIn, I'll be the first to tell everybody about it. Because I, you know, there shouldn't just be one, you know, everybody thought MySpace would be the only one. Look at us now in social media. So something is going to come for LinkedIn at some point. But right now, they've innovated and they're the place to be. And so, you know, if you're looking for a new job, you want things to happen, you want to be in stealth mode, you want a great company to knock on your door, there's now never been an easier way to do it. But you don't like LinkedIn, so, okay.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  By the way, we're still waiting on Twitter slash X to be the LinkedIn killer that Elon promised us.

• 42:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:44Speaker 01

  I love your take on the history and, and I've been on it equally as long. I remember, so what's interesting is how the users have evolved. There was a time where employers restricted employees from being on LinkedIn because it's like, I don't want my competitor to see my engineers. I don't want my competitors to see my high performing salespeople. Now, over time, as people left jobs and got laid off and what they started a LinkedIn thing. So then it became, well, we can't tell you to delete your LinkedIn. You got it, but like, don't look too busy in it. Right? And this is before the content creation. It was just

• 43:26Speaker 01

  like, your profile's there. If I see it updated, you know, hell, hell is following. So if you, if you updated your LinkedIn, it was like, oh shit, my employer got pissed off. And now you're, you're active on it and you're, you're creating content. And I think the part of the story with you was, I have this side gig and my employer is concerned about, I'm doing my side thing more than my real job. And they were pushing that employee to put like a hero image of their employer's brand on their LinkedIn profile as if to say, hey, are you committed to us or not? Are you, are you in it to win it? So this, this back and forth of the relationship between employees and our workers and companies is

• 44:11Speaker 01

  really interesting. And I don't have a good answer for what a company's policy should be on employees using LinkedIn. Like, what's the line? I think it's probably dependent upon the company. But this is where we are. You have to be active on it. You have to be organic on it, right? LinkedIn wants you to be real. They don't want AI slop. So now you have to be really good at LinkedIn, which I think is kind of what your service helps with and your blog and content helps with. You got something to say? So go ahead.

• 44:42Speaker 02

  I do. I'm so anxious about it. So years ago, I was with some Glassdoor executives and

• 44:47Speaker 01

  I'm sorry.

• 44:48Speaker 02

  people, and they would say, yeah, people would come to us and say, hey, I have a Glassdoor problem, right? I've got all these negative reviews. I have a Glassdoor problem. And the executive looked at the CEO and said, you don't have a Glassdoor problem. You have a retention problem. Because if you're doing things right, you wouldn't have these scores. So own it. I say to every CEO executive out there that like, oh, we are, I don't want our people to use LinkedIn. Then you have a retention problem. Because if you really know you're doing a great job, your employees actually will be on LinkedIn saying, I did this cool thing this week at my company and my company won this. And I did, and they shouldn't have to do it all the time. You're LinkedIn, you are a business of one selling your services to an employer. So that is your brand. Protect your brand. I tell people that all the time. And if your company has some sort of agreement where you're not allowed

• 45:32Speaker 02

  to do this, what does that say about them? Why do they feel the need to have to have that? And most companies are realizing now because LinkedIn's algorithm is suppressing business content. So companies aren't getting the mileage out of it that they used to, that their best asset would be to have an ambassador program of employees who are comfortable, you know, posting because individual posting is beating in the algorithm intentionally. They're very clear about the algorithm. So anybody out there listening, any executive, any HR person, please rethink your social strategy. You're sitting on an asset right now.

• 46:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  Untapped asset with what's going on on LinkedIn for your business, not just for recruiting.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Where do you think companies are in accepting that reality and actually even encouraging it? Because we had a story years ago about a Sherwin-Williams employee who would go on and he would mix paints and he would put like strawberries and shit in the paint. And Sherwin-Williams fired him. And at the time, I thought, that's so dumb. You're getting so much free advertising and great, great content. I don't, if they had to make that decision today, I don't know if they would fire that kid. I think they would be like, do more of what you're doing. Is that your take as well? That companies are actually encouraging more activity on social?

• 46:45Speaker 02

  I'm excited to see more and more companies understanding its power because traditional advertising channels, talking about today's the advertising theme, right? Ads on TV and things like that aren't doing as well. Social is where it's at. Organic social is even more powerful. You're crazy not to build that plan and teach your employees how to create good, authentic content. You should be teaching them the guardrails. And there are, by the way, we're further enough along to know that there's five types of content that work the best. We know everything we need to know about how to avoid it looking like AI slop. There's such an easy 45 minute tutorial that you can give people and give them the guardrails to succeed. I just, you know, it's, it's a shame that companies aren't doing it. I do think it's better now than it was, not as severe. But I think more likely

• 47:28Speaker 02

  people are sitting on a completely untapped marketing asset, which is, you know, their loss.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  But you can see if my company makes bicycles and you're creating content about I'm investing and how I'm flipping houses.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  Like that has nothing to do with my business. You're doing it outside like that. That should be okay. From your perspective, the company should be fine.

• 47:52Speaker 02

  100%.

• 47:52Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 47:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. Did the company, wait a minute, am I getting a stipend for being a marketing arm of the company? You want to pay me to be a market like pay me extra. Oh, and by the way, there's an X thousand dollars a year for you not to do any other kind of content, because I see you as the brand. If you think your employees are the brand, pay them to be the brand. If not, it's none of your business.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  So, so companies need to be comfortable with where your nine to five, but we're not your only thing.

• 48:16Speaker 02

  Right.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  I'm being paid to work here nine to five. What I do five to nine, my business.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  As long as it's outside of the company, company time. So here's, here's my question to you, because I know that you're, I go to, I go to you for all things LinkedIn. In a, in a world of, so LinkedIn's hiring assistant is from all accounts that I hear is, is very successful. People love this sort of automated sourcing, read outreach, interview like thing. They love it. Now that's automation. At some point LinkedIn is going to have that for the job seeker. Where I have an automated reply to companies and have like that, that connection, I think is happening if it hasn't happened already. So in a world where humans aren't checking what you're doing, are, are they checking content? Are they checking just the profile?

• 49:03Speaker 01

  Like, how does, how does the automated hiring assistant stuff impact LinkedIn and what happens there from your perspective?

• 49:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, first of all, it can read what you've written in the feed, but as they've learned quickly, people are creating a lot of AI slop. You've probably noticed that videos are now automatically being overlaid with subtitles.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 49:23Speaker 02

  Right? So if you go and look at that, there's a reason because subtitles, transcription can be read by AI, can it? So when you start to think about that, where that's going, I think if I was behind doors and you know, I'm not going to name any names, but if I was behind doors in LinkedIn right now, I would be saying, how do we get our feed to look more like TikTok and Instagram? I want video. I want authentication and how do I make people do it on my iOS or my Android? Because that is automatic authentication built into it.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 49:49Speaker 02

  Right? So now I know that that's not a fake video. That's a person. That person's talking about what they know. I can then match that to opportunity. LinkedIn doesn't want to make you an influencer. It wants to match you to opportunity. So the more you give it in your feed, the more it can match you. That's the reality and it's going to continue to build that way. So I see that as a feature. What most people are sleeping on. And I hope you record this in the predictions episode is that LinkedIn now understands where its big money is going to come is not from recruiting. Their recruiting product's awesome. That's not where their money is going to come from. Nope.

• 50:21Speaker 01

  Well, okay.

• 50:22Speaker 02

  They are now going to be the platform where millions upon millions of people can make money off their knowledge. They are going to monetize the individual. The knowledge creator economy, according to Gartner is $480 billion and growing. They now realize that all of you have a business of one and that you could be on there monetizing in multiple different ways. The same way people do on TikTok or Instagram, but with your business knowledge, with your industry knowledge, with your skillset knowledge. Right? And so they want to give people that opportunity.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  And what does that look like? Is that, is that, hey, I've got, I'm posting content about this. If you want my exclusive stuff, pay me $10 a month and then LinkedIn takes $2 of that. Is that the model or is it?

• 51:03Speaker 02

  Hard for you to, that's just one possibility.

• 51:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:07Speaker 02

  You can be running a podcast on it. You can be running a subscription service on it. You could be doing all these things like people are already doing it on LinkedIn, but where does it go? Off LinkedIn.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:16Speaker 02

  Right? So I don't know what those will specifically be. The moment I do know, I will tell you, but I, just watching them and how they think they're sitting on a literally billions of dollars that could be monetized.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 51:29Speaker 02

  It's already there. The, the, the audience and the matching is already there. You just need to give individuals the tools. That gets exciting to me because I do believe we're in the digital renaissance.

• 51:37Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 51:37Speaker 02

  We're coming into a time where people are going to be able to make money in a lot of different ways. I just look at what's happening with AI and we're coming into this very cool second renaissance. And you're, this is the one platform where that could be happening.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  So you're saying it's a profit deal.

• 51:51Speaker 02

  Give me that money.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  All right, let's play a little, who'd you rather?

• 51:59Speaker 01

  If you don't know the rules, here's, here's what we do. We talk about two companies that have recently raised some money. Look at their business models and then JT and I will both pick, uh, who'd we rather? You ready to play JT?

• 52:15Speaker 02

  I'm ready.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  All right. First up, we have Jack and Jill went up a hill. Agentic recruitment startup. Jack and Jill announced it has raised $40 million in a series A round of funding. The London-based company, which was founded in early 2025, utilizes conversational AI to completely automate the initial stages of recruitment. That is Jack and Jill. And in this corner, we have Boomerang HR. They've raised 12.7 million in a seed round. The platform helps companies maintain relationships with former employees, turning them into a network for rehires, referrals and potential sales opportunities.

• 53:00Speaker 01

  So JT, Jack and Jill or Boomerang HR? Who would you rather?

• 53:11Speaker 02

  I don't like the name, but I like the concept. I'm going Jack and Jill. Um, and I'll tell you why. I, I think it's a bigger play than going back to your alumni. Because a part of your alumni are going to leave you and never want to work for you again. You know, there's that piece of there. I think that's a very specific application. Conversational AI is something I've been working a lot in right now, and I have a product that's almost complete. And I never dreamed it could be that effortless and that conversational. It's very powerful. It's very effective. Uh, it's, it's, we've made so much advancements in that.

• 53:52Speaker 02

  And that's what people want to do. They just want to have a conversation and they want to get an answer. And as long as it's the conversational AI is good, you don't care that it's AI. And that is what I've learned through building Mira. Um, so she's been, it's been eye opening to me and I, I think that's something that job seekers really truly want. Like, can I just talk to somebody is the most common thing a job seeker will say. Can I just talk to somebody? So if it's built properly, they're going to get to talk to somebody.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 54:15Speaker 02

  And you know, to me, that's super powerful. So they got my vote.

• 54:19Speaker 01

  Is, is your anti-boomerang more complicated than just, uh, people don't want to work there? So why have them in the loop?

• 54:27Speaker 02

  No, I just think, you know, it's not that I don't think the business is going to work. I'm just looking at both and saying, where do I think to scale and the bigger opportunities? Exactly. So no discount to them. It's just a smaller play. I'm, I'm going bigger.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  All right. JT's taking, taking Jack and Jill home for a little, a little who'd you rather? Uh, okay. I'm going to, I'm going to start this off with a history lesson. Time for a history lesson. So, uh, when I worked at, at jobbing, uh, now ownership changed everything. Um, they had, you know, this is going back. They had what's, what was called jobbing video. So video was really hot and for a time, people actually made their own video player. Like they coded that shit. They maintained it like it was a pain in the ass. Now YouTube was around,

• 55:19Speaker 01

  but there was a time where we weren't sure if, is it going to be YouTube? Is it going to be Vimeo? Is it going to be some other secondary player? So people just say, you know, we're going to make our own, our own player. Now, over the years, YouTube added, uh, you know, 4K, different speeds, transcription, like they added all this stuff that a company like Google can do. And a job board, not so much. Like we can play the video, but oh my God, now we gotta have 4K and mobile friendly and all this stuff. So what eventually happened was they moved all their video over to YouTube. They saved all the money on hosting the video. They saved all the money on development. Like they, they crushed it with that.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  So that was the decision that they made. So when I look at Jack and Jill, the parallel to that is I was on, uh, online, I'm online every day, but I saw a perplexity ad that was like, get a job. And perplexity, which is a little smaller than Anthropic and OpenAI and Gemini and some of the others, but it's in that sort of universe. You put in your, you, you put in your LinkedIn profile and then perplexity went to work. They went to apply to jobs for you, like source the, the jobs and everything. So my point is when the history is written on this automation stuff and conversational, whatever are, am I placing my bets on a niche player?

• 56:44Speaker 01

  With a few, you know, a few million dollars in the bank or am I putting it on Anthropic, perplexity, OpenAI, Gemini, et cetera. And every, all day, I'm going to go with the big player with the more resources and the better ability. I think Google could do this no problem. They already have the jobs. They have all the data. They know more about you than Jack and Jill ever will. So that's my problem with Jack and Jill. Now let's go to Boomerang. I think it's a good idea in theory, right? You dump a girl, maybe I was at the wrong time in my life. There was a different opportunity, like just things didn't work out. But a few years later, you know, I really liked her. I'm going to call her again, right? That almost never works, probably never works.

• 57:29Speaker 01

  It's never worked for me. I don't know if it's ever worked for you, JT. So the parallel to that is, okay, when people leave a job, it's usually because something's not right. Like I got laid off, my boss isn't asked, the business is failing, whatever it is. Now, according to Glassdoor, I can't believe Glassdoor has made an appearance twice on this show. But according to Glassdoor, 71% of people who leave a job have a, have an improving opinion of that employer. Now, I think that's just natural, your brain filtering out the bad memories and remembering the good stuff. But there is, there is a universe of people who either the company grew or pivoted, or it just wasn't a fit and it didn't work out,

• 58:12Speaker 01

  who still, who liked the company, but they parted in good, on good terms, who down the road might be open to an opportunity. It's a small number. I think it's probably less than 20, 25. But whereas I think Jack and Jill is going to get squashed by a big AI player. I do think that Boomerang HR does have a better chance for success. So for that reason, I'm gonna choose.

• 58:40Speaker 07

  What are you doing, bro?

• 58:43Speaker 02

  All right, I want to go back. I want to punch a hole in your theory around Jack and Jill.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  Okay, I didn't change your mind?

• 58:50Speaker 02

  Not at all. You reinforced my, my theory. Okay, I love they, like, I get your point, like, hey, these big ones could build anything they want. But do you remember when Google said they were going to wipe out everything? Cause they were going to build the place, the job board? How'd that go? These big companies do, do the things that they do well. They should allow other businesses to build big, beautiful businesses off of them.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 59:11Speaker 02

  You look at Jack and Jill and they build the right large language model, which I know personally, because you know, of what I'm doing in career coaching and the large language model we've built. Our AI products kill other people's because they don't have that. They don't have the specialty. This is where the brains behind the bots matter. So I think where Jack and Jill is going to win, if the right people are in place, is that that conversational AI is going to be so rich in its large language model. And what they're doing to it, they'll be far ahead. Package it up, marketing, money spent, great little $200 million, $300 million business off of the backs of whoever they're using, whichever AI tool they're using. And that AI company should be fine with it because they're making money off the tokens. So let it go, right? So to me, that's where I see the job growth coming.

• 59:54Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 59:55Speaker 02

  With companies like that, that gets me super excited. That's where you're wrong, Joel. Sorry, you're wrong.

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  I, I see a future where people adapt agents and agents just become the shit that we do in life. Whether it's, I want to travel to Europe, like figure it out for me and recommend it. Or I need a job, go find me a job. Like I, I, I just think like the monolithic agent provider. I think the battle will be, is my agent OpenAI, is my agent Grok, is my eight? Like to me, that's the competition and whoever wins that.

• 1:00:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, but then you talk buy versus build. One of those biggies comes along and grabs Jack and Jill for a pretty penny and tucks it right in. Right? So they just, then they don't have to build it themselves. They just go grab what somebody already built out there on their platform. So again, so much opportunity. That's what excites me about right now. I know there's a lot of back going on, but we're talking about really cool stuff that's coming down the pike.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  It is very cool. And if the AI doesn't kill us all, we'll, we'll be able to watch, uh, watch the show. All right, guys, that is another episode of Who Would You Rather? Stay tuned, we'll, we'll be right back to talk some Bernie Sanders and the work week.

• 1:01:06Speaker 00

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• 1:01:51Speaker 00

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• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  Boy, that escalated quickly. That's right. Sydney Sweeney, Bernie Sanders and, uh, and Glassdoor.

• 1:02:11Speaker 02

  The thumbnail is going to be really interesting for the podcast, this week.

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  All right, here's the news. A new bill introduced by Senators Bernie Sanders and Mark Tocano, both Democrats, proposes a gradual reduction of the standard work week from 40 hours to 32 hours over four years. The 32 hour work week act, that's very creative, aims to benefit working families by lowering the overtime threshold and preventing employers from cutting pay or benefits. What is this, Europe? JT, is America ready for such crazy ideas?

• 1:02:47Speaker 02

  Not only are they ready, it's already working. So in 2018, I took my company from a 40 hour work week to a 35. Seven hours a day, totally flexible. Just tell us when you're going to be here, when you're not. Pandemic hit, we never went back to an office. My team retains a 35 hour work week. Tell me when you're in, tell me when you're out. And it works beautifully. Productivity went through the roof in the first year. Right? Retention is very high in my company. And the performance level and I think the satisfaction people have is unparalleled. I, we do not need to be working those hours. We weren't meant to be in front of a computer. A lot of those jobs that are in front of a computer like that. You weren't meant to be on a computer eight hours a day. You just weren't.

• 1:03:27Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:03:28Speaker 02

  And so I, I am all for it. I've seen it work in practice. It's amazing. Yeah, it's something I hope they pass.

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  So the, the, the pushback would be, yeah, I, I don't have to be in the, the office that long, but I'm always plugged in. I've always got to answer emails and slacks and texts. And like, I worked more than ever before, even though officially I don't work as much. Like, what do you, what do you say about that?

• 1:03:50Speaker 02

  I agree. I think part of the things that I did as a manager was recognize that I had to cap, you know, when I asked for things, right? So I, I love what I do. I do work on the weekends, but if I schedule emails, I schedule emails to show up in my team's inbox after 8 a.m. on Monday. Right? Like, and not after 5 p.m. I'm not texting anybody. So it then becomes choosing your manager wisely, making sure that they're not abusing that process. That's a much different problem that the government can't control. Right? But at least putting a parameter in place that says, look, legally, I'm 35 hours, starts to give people some boundaries that they can work off of to help with that.

• 1:04:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:25Speaker 02

  So, you know, to me, it's a step in the right direction.

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  As long as there's a really strict corporate, hey, the lights, the lights go off at five, the computers go off. Like, we're not expecting you. I think that's a really hard thing, um, to expect. I think most CEOs, small businesses are like, we need to make money. We need to survive. You need to be available to work. Like I, I worked at a company where the vacation time was like voluntary. Like if you need time, take it. There wasn't any, you get two weeks and if you don't take it, you lose it. So you need to take it. And what happened was nobody took vacation because everyone was like, oh, I'm going to look bad if I take vacation. Even though it was like, oh, take whatever time you want. Like that was never the reality.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  The reality was like very genius, very evil genius. Like, oh, you can take all the time you want, but nobody did because they were scared about looking bad.

• 1:05:20Speaker 02

  It's funny you say that. So we, my team gets the week between Christmas and New Year's off and the week of 4th of July off already. They then get two additional weeks of vacation, not PTO, but vacation.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:05:31Speaker 02

  But you cannot carry those, you can only carry one week forward.

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:05:36Speaker 02

  So my whole point is you're going at least three weeks a year you're out.

• 1:05:40Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:05:40Speaker 02

  Would rather see you use up all of them, plus all your holidays, right? Because of that, like exactly what you said, I want you out, I want you refreshed. I've just seen so much evidence that when your brain isn't burnt out, you're going to make better decisions. How many times are people working around the clock, probably doing something stupid?

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:55Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Building something bad and like, because they weren't given a chance to rest. We're not thinking about, you know, the, the power of that, that compressed time, that, that peak time, and then allowing people's brains to refill. Once you've moved over, I'll just tell you, once you've built a business like it, you never go back. Cause you just see how much better it performs.

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And retention levels and satisfaction all go up. Yeah, you, you're a way better boss than Chad is. Chad's a slave. All right. Time for another history lesson. Time for a history lesson. So in 1930, kids, economist John Maynard Keynes published a famous essay, essay entitled Economic Possibilities for Our Grandchildren. This was 1930. Well, we're about a hundred years on. And he was spot on about everything, except, you want to guess? The hours that we work.

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  Keynes predicted that we would work about a 15 hour work week, a hundred years on from 1930. We're not close to 15 hours a week. So in terms of technology, global wealth, like he was so spot on and all that. But the work week and amount of time that we work. And again, I would say, not only are we working 40 hours a week at, at the office or hybrid or whatever, but we're also working on the weekends. If we get an email from our boss, we have something going on. So, um, I think this has to be a law to take effect. I, I'm with you. I think that with AI, with productivity, like studies show, if you have a four hour work week,

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  if you have, uh, you know, three hour work, three hour workdays where you work more hours, but then you get to, like, all these sort of ideas seem to not impact work productivity at all. In fact, they improve it. Uh, so I think it's going to take a law and start at the federal end. And like your, if you have a federal job or state job, like you will only work X amount hour, 35 hours a week, whatever it is, I, but that's probably what has to happen in order for it to take hold. But small businesses, it's not going to happen.

• 1:08:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I wish, it's funny, when the pandemic hit and we all went remote and everybody realized how much they enjoyed working remote, especially executives. You know, they allowed remote. Now they're worried about productivity, which I understand, but they're still hanging on to flex, uh, flex time and hybrid, right? Because they still really appreciate the flexibility.

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  A lot of it is a facade. I think people are working more. I think they're working after hours. I think they're always plugged in.

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, more reason to put it to 35 hours. Cause force people into, yes, put in laws in place to get them comfortable with it.

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  It's, it's you saying you're gonna, you take these days off because they don't roll over. Like if you don't use them, you lose them. So yeah, you're, you're a trend setter, much like my dad jokes are setting trends all over.

• 1:08:50Speaker 02

  Make them stop, make them stop.

• 1:08:52Speaker 01

  JT, oh, you love them. Don't just stop. JT, what do you, what do you call a sad strawberry? What do you call a sad strawberry? A blueberry.

• 1:09:10Speaker 02

  Okay, that was cute.

• 1:09:11Speaker 01

  Time for a white wine.

• 1:09:12Speaker 03

  I don't know about you, but I'm having a white wine. White wine.

• 1:09:16Speaker 02

  See you in Nashville, everyone.

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  See you in Nashville. We out.

• 1:09:19Speaker 02

  We out.

• 1:09:20Speaker 06

  Thank you for listening to, what's it called? A podcast, the Chad, the cheese, brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one. Cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode.

• 1:10:05Speaker 06

  And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.