KHC 216 - Mark Dowdle

Mark Dowdle - American ultramarathon runner and endurance athlete from the Minnesota area. He played football and lacrosse at the University of St. Thomas before taking up running after college. Mark has become particularly known for backyard ultras, in which runners complete a 4.167-mile loop every hour until only one runner remains. In 2026, he won the Arrowhead 135, the Wausaultra Backyard Ultra, and the Last Soul Ultra in Germany, where he completed 94 loops - about 395 miles over 94 hours. He also won the 306-mile BPN Go One More (G1M) Ultramarathon earlier in 2026. His Last Soul performance has put him on the 2027 Big Dog's Backyard Ultra Individual World Championship roster, where he currently holds a 94-loop qualifying performance. Follow Mark: https://www.instagram.com/mark.dowdle/ Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Timestamps: 00:00:00 – Mark’s Backyard Ultra Race 00:09:43 – The Spirit of Competition: How to Get an Edge 00:13:44 – What if Ello was Courtney Dauwalter? 00:20:35 – Preparation & a Mental Edge 00:27:16 – Mind Games During the Backyard Ultra Race 00:31:26 – Rivals: Self Discovery 00:33:27 – Mindset Shift: Dark Moments Are Only Temporary 00:40:57 – Why a Good Crew is Important 00:46:40 – Disbelief, Struggle, & Being Honest with Yourself in Races 00:59:37 – 24 Hour Backyard Simulation & Strength from Others 01:05:02 – Rewards: Earning, Chasing, & Suffering 01:12:38 – Using Pain to Foster Beauty in Life 01:21:10 – Building a Dream on Faith & Hard Work 01:28:27 – Working with BPN 01:31:10 – rappid. Sponsorship and Speedland Shoes 01:34:37 – Taking 159 Souls: Backyard Ultra 01:36:47 – Publicity & Limits in Competition 01:46:30 – Howling in Races: Where it Started 01:48:23 – The Average of the Last 5 Years of Races 01:50:04 – Inspiration from Mike Egan 01:53:36 – Negatives in the Ultra Running Space 01:59:00 – F**k, Marry, Kill: Backyard Ultras, Lacrosse, or the Calendar Club 02:02:11 – Living and Navigating a Life of High Standards 02:05:46 – Hunger to Reach High Goals 02:09:27 – What Mark Wants to Instil in His Future Children 02:11:22 – Final Thoughts Thank you to our sponsors: Ketone IQ: Visit https://www.ketone.com/Cam and use code CAM for 30% off your subscription order PLUS receive a free gift with your second shipment - or find Ketone-IQ at CVS stores nationwide and get $5 off your first 6-pack for a limited time! Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv use code CAM for 10% off LMNT: Visit https://drinklmnt.com/cam for a free sample pack with any purchase Grizzly Coolers: https://www.grizzlycoolers.com/ use code KEEPHAMMERING for 15% off ALP: https://alppouch.com/ use code CAM for 10% off your first order Black Rifle Coffee: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 10% your order

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:17Cameron Hanes?

  This is the Keep Hammering Collective with Mark Dowdle.

• 0:22Speaker 01

  That's me.

• 0:23Cameron Hanes?

  Dude, you're here.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Finally.

• 0:26Cameron Hanes?

  Can you believe it?

• 0:27Speaker 01

  It's, I was thinking about this on the drive over. I was just like, man, this is crazy that this is my life now. We're here.

• 0:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 0:35Speaker 01

  We made it.

• 0:35Cameron Hanes?

  Your life is just like traveling around doing podcasts.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, pretty much.

• 0:41Cameron Hanes?

  So I have a question for you. I've been dying to ask this question. So let me set it up. We, uh, if we go back into the, the archives of the Mark Dowdle story.

• 0:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:57Cameron Hanes?

  Not even that deep into the archives. Lap 87 on last soul ultra, right? Did I said it right?

• 1:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:04Cameron Hanes?

  In Germany.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06Cameron Hanes?

  Almost missed the, the race, had to private jet, this whole thing, big story. Everybody can look it up. But lap 87 was the crux of the race. It's the one that's getting all the drama.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:19Cameron Hanes?

  So this race, and we'll go over all this, but in general, Mark is extremely talented at last man standing format races. And that's running 4.167 or 6.7 kilometers. Every hour.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  Every hour.

• 1:40Cameron Hanes?

  You have to finish before the hour and be on the start line before the top of the hour. So he is, how many of these have you won now? Like, I know you want, so the big ones have been BPN, last man standing, and then this last soul, right? And then you've won Arrowhead. I know that that's a straight up ultra 135 miles. So you're kind of, your trajectory is you're like kicking ass and winning.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm trying to think, I think I've done a total of 10 traditional last person standing races. I DNF'd my first three, didn't make it past 24 hours, and I've won every race since then.

• 2:24Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. So you've won seven?

• 2:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:27Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, that's pretty good.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  It's pretty good. It's a pretty good percentage.

• 2:31Cameron Hanes?

  So, um, all right.

• 2:33Speaker 01

  But I'm not a part of the hundred, 100 hour club yet. I haven't made it. I haven't.

• 2:38Cameron Hanes?

  You've got 90 some?

• 2:39Speaker 01

  94.

• 2:40Cameron Hanes?

  Hours.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yep.

• 2:43Cameron Hanes?

  And that's 300 and?

• 2:45Speaker 01

  91 miles, something like that.

• 2:48Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. Well, we'll get to all that.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:51Cameron Hanes?

  Lap 87, last soul, ultra, um, lots of drama. And how it happened was LO was the last person you were racing, so it's you two. What they, what they say about the person who helps the winner is the, the per, the second to last person gets the assist.

• 3:14Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:15Cameron Hanes?

  And so at this time, we didn't know who was going to win. It was a, a dogfight, a lap 87. So you're 300. How many miles is that in?

• 3:24Speaker 01

  Here, I mean, three, what 360?

• 3:27Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 3:27Speaker 01

  Something like that.

• 3:28Cameron Hanes?

  Ways into this.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  Ways into it.

• 3:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Anyway, LO takes off at a blistering pace.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:38Cameron Hanes?

  Takes off out of there running. So in my mind, after 360 miles, he takes off out of the ordinary fast. He's trying to break you.

• 3:49Speaker 01

  As I perceived it, yes.

• 3:52Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. It was a different tactic than what he had had in the previous laps, right?

• 3:57Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 3:57Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, he went out quick. So it was like, he was, he was trying to do something. You answered the call. You stayed on him.

• 4:04Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 4:04Cameron Hanes?

  Right? So then this is where it turns into, this is at night. I don't know what time at night it was, but I know there's a heat signature camera or something picking up your, the heat of your body. So you're showing the silhouette. And you see two guys on this road. One stops, the other one stops.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:22Cameron Hanes?

  So he stopped because you were like right on his ass.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 4:26Cameron Hanes?

  You went down on one knee, acted like you're messing with your shoe.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  Well, I, I had to tie my shoe.

• 4:32Cameron Hanes?

  All right. If your shoe comes untied, what if you tripped?

• 4:35Speaker 01

  I mean, they don't, they, the shoes I was wearing don't have laces, but I still needed to tie them up.

• 4:40Cameron Hanes?

  That makes.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. I just had to check.

• 4:42Cameron Hanes?

  It doesn't make sense, but it makes perfect sense. So you had to double check that your laces that you didn't have were tied.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes.

• 4:51Cameron Hanes?

  Anyway, so you're both like going into four days of no sleep essentially, right? So you're, the strategy part must be pretty intense, but this turned into a thing because he gets frustrated with you. Didn't know what you were doing. You didn't say anything.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  No.

• 5:13Cameron Hanes?

  And so tell, so what did he do then?

• 5:18Speaker 01

  Well, in the, the kind of the moment on the course where you see me on my knee and then he starts running, I start running. Then he stops, I stop. He throws his hands up and he says, um, something to the tune of, what the hell are you doing, man? To that I said nothing. Um, you know, I was always thought, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all. So I stayed silent.

• 5:44Cameron Hanes?

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• 6:27Cameron Hanes?

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• 7:11Cameron Hanes?

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• 7:54Cameron Hanes?

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• 8:04Speaker 01

  That, that was kind of the competitive game that I felt like that lap was playing out to be. Now there was some strategy going into that. Um, you know, the hunter, huntey type of mentality. But, um, you know, as Alex had said on a previous podcast, the guy who crafted this plan was, ELO set the pace for that loop. And I just wanted to let him know and let his crew know that I can run fast loops too. Because there's a, um, some people that were maybe hinting at, I wasn't able to continue on

• 8:45Speaker 01

  because my loops are so consistently slow that there must be something wrong with me or that I wouldn't be able to even handle running a fast loop. And so for that loop, it was just me showing that I can run fast loops if I want to. I'm choosing not to. And, um, I will be in the back running my consistent 50 minute loops. But just know I can be right here with you, playing the game that you are attempting to break me at. And speed was at least in that moment. Now he's talked about it afterwards where he says that he was just running in the loop like it was a normal loop. But that was a, a fast loop. That was the fastest loop that either of us had ran all day.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  So I think, um, whatever truth there is, maybe it's, maybe there is some, maybe there isn't some. I just wanted to run, I wanted to know what it felt like to run a fast LO loop.

• 9:44Cameron Hanes?

  So the way you look at it, it's a spirit of competition. There's, there's mind games in like really all racing. Sometimes the mind games like in a fast marathon might be a little more short-lived. You got more time to develop a mind game or to, to come up with a strategy in a backyard ultra. But it's, it's a spirit of competition. How can I get an edge? Is that what you're?

• 10:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, look, to, to be totally transparent here. What I believe makes an elite backyard ultra runner is you have to be physically strong, mentally strong, emotionally strong and physically strong. And I was willing to test my competitor in a way to see how strong he was in all four elements of what I believe make an elite backyard ultra runner. And when you're 94 hours into any race and it's down to you too. Yes, there's a, there's a, there's a, an approach that I take to try and say it, it's not about winning for me, but I'm still a competitor and I do want to win the race at the end of the day.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  And when you're out there for 94 hours, everybody can agree, no matter if you're in the competition, your crew's there, there's a part of you that wants the race to end. Cause like we've been out here for four days.

• 11:05Cameron Hanes?

  I get it.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  It's not my responsibility or any other, I don't expect any person that I'm lining up against to carry me to the finish line. It's my responsibility to do that. And I come from a football and a lacrosse background where competition is head to head. And to see how that plays out in ultra running. It hasn't really been broadcasted or seen. And I think the backyard provides an opportunity where I want to test to see how strong my competitors are. And if that is in a mind game or that's in, you know, I, I was perceiving and feel like

• 11:48Speaker 01

  ELO was trying to test to see how strong of a physical competitor I was by coming out on that fast loop and seeing if he could break me with speed.

• 11:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  And so it's part of the game. It's part of competition. And I've said this before, but it's like, you know, I see myself as Dennis Rodman. That's how I've played basketball. That's how I played lacrosse and football. And that doesn't change just because I'm in a sport that doesn't historically have that competitive, um, you know, head to head component to it.

• 12:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  In football, it's very clear. You hit the other people.

• 12:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  So if you, you can't physically hit somebody out on the course. There's gonna be, well, there's gonna be, I'd even be against that.

• 12:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  But if there's ways that in which you can start to see

• 12:37Speaker 01

  breaks in the armor of your competitor, I want to find that out because on, on one hand, it's fun. That keeps my mind distracted from recognizing that I've been out here for 94 hours.

• 12:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  Right?

• 12:51Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  So, um, yeah.

• 12:55Cameron Hanes?

  Spirit of competition.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  It's the spirit of competition and I think it's what makes this sport interesting. And running is boring. It is.

• 13:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  It's always going to be boring because there's no, there's no excitement component to it. And yet in loop 87, that excitement component was able to speak to Lucy's grandma, to somebody, um, who's, who doesn't even watch traditional sports.

• 13:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  And there was something about that moment and all the moments that led up to that and that happened after that, that we're able to speak to the general population of people that would never think running is interesting and we made it interesting.

• 13:38Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  And so why would we not want to do that more?

• 13:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I, I understand. Here's the question.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:47Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, that was just a build up.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:50Cameron Hanes?

  I love, I love the head to head and this is what we need and this is what makes people interesting. Tell me,

• 13:58Cameron Hanes?

  what if ELO was Courtney Dauwalter?

• 14:06Cameron Hanes?

  What if Courtney took off blazing out of the gates? Would we have the same tactic?

• 14:13Speaker 01

  That's a, that's a great question.

• 14:15Cameron Hanes?

  I know. That's why I've been dying to ask it.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  That is.

• 14:18Cameron Hanes?

  Because we're all equal.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:21Cameron Hanes?

  We're all racing.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I, I, I don't see it as a, uh, I think the perception of it would be much different if it was a female competitor.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  But.

• 14:36Cameron Hanes?

  But why?

• 14:37Speaker 01

  That's a question you'll have to ask people that would have a different perspective on.

• 14:41Cameron Hanes?

  Society.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Society would say that. I think the, there are,

• 14:50Speaker 01

  there, it, it might have been part of what went into that was the energy that that crew and that tent and everybody involved in that was putting out throughout the competition. That created an environment where, um, it was in, within the, the boundaries of what's fair in competition, but you're going to bring out the most competitive version of Mark in that moment. And I don't believe that Courtney or her crew would act in a way that would bring out the most vicious competitor in me.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  And so I think it's not necessarily male or female. It's the type of competitor that I'm going up against that would bring out that version or would, would draw that version out of me.

• 15:48Cameron Hanes?

  So what if

• 15:53Cameron Hanes?

  Courtney had the same coach as ELO?

• 15:59Cameron Hanes?

  Who is ELO's coach?

• 16:05Speaker 01

  I, I think, uh, he assisted, he assisted Phil in the world record. I think his name is Sam Harvey.

• 16:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:18Cameron Hanes?

  Interesting.

• 16:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I was just,

• 16:24Cameron Hanes?

  yeah, I, I was just, I was kind of fascinated about that. Of course, everybody was, you said Lucy's grandma would care.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:31Cameron Hanes?

  And that's just an example of just somebody who's not in the world would care about, hey, what's this competition? What are these guys doing? This is interesting.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:39Cameron Hanes?

  And, and I get that. And then I was just thinking about like, what if we changed, you know, you were against somebody else? What if it was somebody, you know, everybody loves like Courtney?

• 16:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:50Cameron Hanes?

  Would it be the same? But I get what you're saying about you had four days of dealing with this crew, dealing with hearing some stuff, dealing with rumblings. This is competition. So there are, there are mind, people can say whatever they want. Like it's not, it's not, uh, ethical or it's not whatever. It's, it's competition.

• 17:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:11Cameron Hanes?

  Hey, it's like, we're all trying to win, right?

• 17:15Cameron Hanes?

  So yeah, I was just, I was just curious about how you, how you'd approach that with somebody beloved like Courtney.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:21Cameron Hanes?

  But I get that it's, it's probably less about ELO and more about the circumstance.

• 17:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I, I can hear people listening to this now where like, well, don't be vague, be specific. What, what exactly happened? Since Alex had kind of talked about, about this specific situation.

• 17:39Cameron Hanes?

  And tell me who Alex is, by the way.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  Alex is a, a former rapid athlete. He's, uh, he's part of that German crew with Kim. And I met him for the first time at BPN where he was crewing for Kim. And then he was at this race and I've gotten to know him since BPN. And he's one of the most, uh, genuinely thoughtful individuals.

• 18:04Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, his prayers.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  It's, it's.

• 18:06Cameron Hanes?

  Dude, his prayers.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  It's nuts.

• 18:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah, he's got a gift.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  He has a gift and that to me, something about that man, I just, there's, there's a, uh, he has a God given gift to use his voice that will change how people think about themselves, their situation and life.

• 18:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  And, um, so he was talking about this on another podcast and, um, he said that Ellis coach Sam was saying,

• 18:45Speaker 01

  trying to make the case with no evidence that I was course cutting and that I was cheating during the competition.

• 18:54Cameron Hanes?

  Was this mind games?

• 18:56Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know.

• 18:57Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Cause obviously you weren't.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  Yes. Clearly.

• 19:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:02Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, when you got a drone.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Tracker and a drone.

• 19:05Cameron Hanes?

  It's like, what are you talking about?

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Watch data.

• 19:07Cameron Hanes?

  So all I can figure is that is trying to, a mind fuck, like hoping you hear this. I don't know.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Who knows?

• 19:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  And so, you know, that to me was, um, it was like, okay, if, if that's, if that's what's being said, um, uh, that, that, that hit me in a competitive way. Like, okay, this is, this is, this is a, uh, an attack on my character and Lucy's character and Kellen's character and, um, the, the character of the race. Because there's, there's, everybody's involved into that. And just to blanketly say that to me was like, okay, let's get it on, man. Let's get it on.

• 19:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah, I get that. And I, and now I just realized, well, you said Lucy's grandma, is that your wife, right? Lucy?

• 20:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:04Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. I thought it was just like, just you were making up a name about somebody's grandma. No, I'm sorry.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  No, and Lucy's grandma actually was invested in that.

• 20:11Cameron Hanes?

  I could understand your wife's grandma would care. I thought we were just talking about just some random person, but even some random person watches that clip is my point and wants to know what's going on.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So anyway, I didn't mean to, uh, I don't know, dismiss who Lucy was. I'm sorry. I forgot that was your wife's name. Um, and I haven't met her, but I saw her on FaceTime.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:34Cameron Hanes?

  Anyway, um, yeah, I'm just fascinated because competition, I've always said, and we talked about it today. You know, life is competition. So it's how do you respond in situations like that? And especially, I, I don't know. I, I can't imagine with the four days with no sleep, the having to line up every hour, what you're going through mentally, physically, emotionally, and then hearing these things. Yeah, it's just, how could you predict how you're going to react?

• 21:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:07Cameron Hanes?

  You know, and so, yeah, in competition.

• 21:12Cameron Hanes?

  If you want to win, sometimes you gotta get creative.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And we talked about it, it being a part of life and also it's not a, should it be this way or should it not be this way? Was that right? Or was that wrong? It's that is the way it is. That is competition.

• 21:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  And you can either choose to be a victim of that situation or prepare yourself for that not to affect you in the future.

• 21:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. If.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  Like, I hope somebody does that to me.

• 21:47Cameron Hanes?

  Well, to me, when you see react, to me, I'm in life, I'm looking for tells. How can I, so this person is going to tell me how they feel.

• 21:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:57Cameron Hanes?

  Can I read how they feel? And so you had to tell on ELO, how he reacted. And obviously that's, it didn't work out that great. So it's a weakness, I guess, unless he corrects it. But in that situation, and maybe that was just a, a unique situation for him that night. And it just bothered him and it broke him and who knows what. But anyway, it, it was a tell and it worked. You're, and you brought this up, you said Dennis Rodman, Dennis Rodman on the court, he would like, they're lining up for free throws and he's going to have to block out the guy right next to him. He just is turning, is staring at him and or he unties her shoe.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:40Cameron Hanes?

  Or he blows in their ear. It's like, it's mind games.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. The, uh, I, I was corner my junior year in college. And what I would do in preparation for preparing for games is I would know who my mashup was. And then I'd go on the internet and I would search every bit of information I could find about this person. What their favorite cereal was, what their, you know, their girlfriend's name was, what they liked to do in their free time, how they spent their weekend on vacation with their family. And I would just tell them stuff about them.

• 23:19Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  And it's like, some people might say, that's so uncalled for. It's like, yeah, but when the quarterback from their team comes up to me after the game and says, I've never seen that guy so rattled in my life. What were you saying to him? It's like, I just let him know that I know who he is.

• 23:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  And in competition, I, you know, that could.

• 23:44Cameron Hanes?

  That's a wild card.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  That's a wild card.

• 23:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yep.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  But that receiver or that person who's going up against me, if that happens to me, it's like, okay.

• 23:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Great.

• 23:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah. It's a, you threw him off his game.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's, that's part of competition.

• 24:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, for sure. I get it. I love it. I mean, normally you just need to know the girlfriend's name and that's enough.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:08Cameron Hanes?

  Cause you start talking that, that gets people in their head for sure. But, uh, yeah, that's, I mean, that's interesting. So this isn't like a new tactic for you. You've been a lifelong competitor.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:20Cameron Hanes?

  You've always looked for an edge and, you know, it's, I guess lately it's worked out really well. Your first, I think your first backyard, what was like 21 loops.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:32Cameron Hanes?

  Right? So you've figured out what it takes, right?

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:38Cameron Hanes?

  And for you, having that mental edge is a big part of what it takes. Cause it's even been back to your college days or maybe back before that. It's just like this all encompassing effort. How do I win? How do I get an edge?

• 24:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:54Cameron Hanes?

  Is that what it is?

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. I would say maybe that part of me, at least leading in the college days and, you know, all of that was so geared towards winning.

• 25:06Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  So geared to how can I find the most, um, the most competitive edge I possibly can? Because I know I'm doing all the work that I can do, but what's, what are those little things that I can pick up on? That would give me a better, uh, chance to have the success that I'm after. I think, um, I think lately that has shifted over the last couple of years because I'm not seeking the victory as much as it is a part of my identity. That, that's, I've done my very best to remove that as something that I need to happen in order to feel fulfilled.

• 25:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  But just going back to loop 87, like that was a risk. That could have gone horribly wrong for me.

• 25:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it worked.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  And so there's a gamble to that. And to me, that's, that's, that's the fun part of it. It's like, there's a risk here where it could go horribly wrong. And if it does, then I get to walk away with a learning opportunity to say, maybe I shouldn't take that approach again in the future.

• 26:06Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 26:07Speaker 01

  Um, but I think it's also been historically, there's this idea in backyard and last person standing, where it is the responsibility of the stronger athlete to carry the second or third or fourth, as long as they possibly can go.

• 26:24Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  And, um, I just, I, I, you know, I, I have a belief that I want people to find out what their absolute best is and what they're entirely capable of. And you might disagree, but I think there's a weakness that this competitor has, that now he'll be stronger because of that. And the next time we face each other, he's going to be more prepared to go deeper and handle obstacles that he wouldn't have previously expected to come up during a backyard ultra. And he will be a better athlete because of that, which will force me to be a better athlete showing up to that line the next time we, we go up against each other.

• 27:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah. That, that makes sense. I mean, it's either you, you improve and you become a better athlete or you go the other way.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:13Cameron Hanes?

  And that's whatever. But so in that regard, into the mind games part, it would, to me then thinking about Sam Harvey talking about you cutting the course and things like that. Is that a mind game? Is that like, is he doing the same approach in a different way? Is he trying to get in your head to screw with you?

• 27:38Speaker 01

  Possibly.

• 27:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I mean, so I get that it's like, it's irritating to hear. But is it a similar in some ways to, to what you did on lap 87? Element was created by former research biochemist, Rob Wolf, and has enough sodium, potassium and magnesium to move the needle and get you feeling and performing your best. Plus it has zero sugar, artificial colors or other dodgy ingredients to derail your low carb lifestyle. That's why Element is my go-to electrolyte drink and trusted by many of the world's leading health experts and athletes, including Team USA weightlifting, coaches, health practitioners,

• 28:22Cameron Hanes?

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• 29:04Cameron Hanes?

  I need a cooler that holds the line every time. That's why I use Grizzly coolers. These things are bear proof, rugged as hell and keep ice locked in for days, literally. I've had coolers on the trail, baking in the sun, still holding ice after hauling out elk quarters. That's performance you can count on. Whether you're running deep in the back country or just stacking meat for the weekend, Grizzly is built for that grind. Don't roll with weak gear. Go Grizzly.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  Every single athlete that showed up to that line was playing a mind game to some degree.

• 29:44Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Because you are trying to look stronger than you feel.

• 29:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yep.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  Every time you toe that line, whether you believe it or not, that's a mind game. Because you are misrepresenting how you internally feel. So that other competitors don't see weakness in you.

• 30:02Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  That's a mind game.

• 30:03Cameron Hanes?

  Because when I see weakness and so, I don't know if this is a flaw. When I see somebody I'm racing that I, and I perceive as a weakness, it gives me strength.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:14Cameron Hanes?

  I'm like, got him.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:17Cameron Hanes?

  And yeah, so it's like, we are acting.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:22Cameron Hanes?

  You can't go up there grimacing and limping. I mean, you could, but, um, you're just helping the others believe that, okay, I just got to push a little further and this guy's done.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:33Cameron Hanes?

  And so, yeah, it is, it's, we're all actors out there.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I, I feel like I've heard you talk about this way back. But if you're doing a point-to-point race and let's say you got a, a lead against somebody and it's relatively close and you can see a mile down the stretch, you're going to turn off your headlamp and you're going to wait to turn it back on until you turn the corner because, so that person can't see you. That's a mind game.

• 31:01Cameron Hanes?

  For sure.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  And so whether, you know, that's a little less competitive, you know, head and head type, but it's still a mind game.

• 31:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  So I don't draw the line. I say everything is fair play.

• 31:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 31:15Speaker 01

  And with, as long as it's within the rules and, um, you know, you're not physically in, impairing someone in some capacity, um, it's all fair play.

• 31:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Is, uh, so are you, are you more of a rival with, say in this situation, ELO or Sam?

• 31:36Speaker 01

  I would say neither.

• 31:37Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:38Cameron Hanes?

  Cause, cause you're on your own journey is how you look at it.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean.

• 31:42Cameron Hanes?

  Self-discovery, basically, and.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, what, what is a rival? What does that even mean?

• 31:51Cameron Hanes?

  Um, normally it's you want the same thing. You're going for the same, trying to achieve the same goal, or yeah, you want, there's, there's one position you both want.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I would say that then in every regard, I'm rivals with every competitor that shows up that wants to be the last person standing.

• 32:13Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  But in terms of pursuits and what each of us individually want out of the sport and out of each race that we toe the line at, I think it's different. And I don't think we're playing the same game. And, uh, you know, I, I've only done 94 hours. So, you know, guys like Sam have done 118. So I don't think that we could even compare ourselves because I haven't gone that distance yet.

• 32:40Cameron Hanes?

  He's so much better.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  Well, I mean,

• 32:42Cameron Hanes?

  He must win a lot.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  Hmm. Well, he was runner up to Phil.

• 32:50Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  Assisted. I don't know his other stats though.

• 32:54Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. Um, how about, I mean, but people he coaches probably do great.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  I think they, they do achieve distances they have not achieved before.

• 33:08Cameron Hanes?

  They beat you?

• 33:09Speaker 01

  They have not.

• 33:10Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 33:20Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, um, God, I was just thinking about something else. I forgot. Uh, so yeah, I mean, so tell me, how have you changed from the, the 21 laps to the, you say 91 or 94?

• 33:36Speaker 01

  94.

• 33:37Cameron Hanes?

  94. How, what has changed from the, the 21 lap mark to the, to the 94?

• 33:43Speaker 01

  So, early on, going from three DNFs to finally getting my first victory.

• 33:50Cameron Hanes?

  And a DNF is just not winning.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Only one person finishes.

• 33:54Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Okay. Gotcha.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Everybody except for me, DNF'd last so ultra.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  So the first,

• 34:05Cameron Hanes?

  Did you, seems like you have something on your mind.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  Uh, no, I was just thinking about, um, no.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'll, I'll take a sip of coffee here.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  I'm not in the hundred hour club yet.

• 34:21Cameron Hanes?

  Right. So are you, are you even considered like a backyard athlete?

• 34:25Speaker 01

  I'm, I, I'm a loser because I tried to win a race. So trying to win equals being a loser.

• 34:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  So, but we'll just leave that there for now. Um, the mindset shift that happened for me going from not being able to break 24 hours to winning my first backyard came from failure and understanding that what I thought my, was my limit was not actually my limit. And going into that fourth race, the first one that I won, I developed a mindset of no matter what obstacle I face out here, my answer to that obstacle is just don't quit. Whatever comes up, just don't quit. And what I realized, even in that fourth race,

• 35:19Speaker 01

  I tried to throw the loop because I was back at that point again. I was back in that darkness.

• 35:25Cameron Hanes?

  What do you mean, throw the loop?

• 35:27Speaker 01

  So I didn't want to have to make the decision to not go back out there.

• 35:31Cameron Hanes?

  So make it not in time, come back.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  Make it not in time.

• 35:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  And, and so,

• 35:35Cameron Hanes?

  They say you're done.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's the honorable way to quit, which I think is BS. Like, come on, like,

• 35:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  And I didn't do it properly. So I came in with three minutes and I turned the corner and I see my dad and I'm like, I'm done. I don't want to be out here anymore. And without hesitation, he was like, no, you're not. You got three minutes. Get your butt back out there. You're going to keep going. Holding me to the standard that I,

• 36:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  showed up to be there.

• 36:07Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  And what was crazy is on that laps, on that loop, after that, there's five of us left. One guy who had consistently gone farther than me and every other time I'd shown up at this race were, you know, a quarter mile in, he shakes my hand. He said, this is my last loop. I'm going to turn back. And, and everything changed. The amount of shift in my energy was crazy. And the rest of the race, I was like, I'm boom, everything changed.

• 36:40Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  And that taught me that the darkness that I'm experiencing in that moment is only temporary. And if I could keep chipping away and not allow my darkest moment to define me stepping off the course, that other people will walk away and I can get confidence from that. But then there's this other part that I've really learned to develop that I can prove to myself that this dark moment does not define me. And I can find strength if I just keep taking steps and keep walking toward the darkness. There is a light at the end of this darkness. I just haven't experienced it yet. And after I experienced

• 37:22Speaker 01

  it that first time, I was like, oh, I like this. This, this, that pain was worth the reward of feeling this fresh again, of, of recognizing that, that there is truth in walking in darkness and just continuing to move forward. And, you know, that, that mentality of just don't quit sort of developed into, wow, what's the, what, what am I actually capable of? What can I actually do if I don't allow the dark moment? And, and I think there's, it is my responsibility on the course, and I learned this through my first three

• 38:07Speaker 01

  attempts, to recognize what that limit is when it gets to a point where it becomes dangerous.

• 38:13Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  My wife, Lucy, Kellen, anybody else who's crewing me, their role and responsibility is to get me to keep going. I have to honor that and build trust in that by not allowing that to end me in the hospital.

• 38:29Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  So I have to know internally when, you know, an injury's happened and it's like, dude, get your ego out of this, step off the course. I haven't found that yet. I hope that I will be able to recognize that when it happens because that's on me to, to know. And that's not the burden that I need to put on anybody else. And I feel confident that I will better be able to work through that by observing guys like Harvey Lewis, where he stepped off the course in what was a surprising fashion from everybody watching

• 39:11Speaker 01

  because he is one of the best in the sport. And when he rang the bell and in his post race interview, he talked about how the only thing that would have kept him in that race was his ego. And it wasn't worth getting injured over. And so to be able to look at a guy that has,

• 39:32Cameron Hanes?

  That's a great example.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  led the sport.

• 39:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  Who has achieved everything that he's set a world record. He's won bigs. He's done everything from the achievement side of things. And yet he can still understand that there are things far more important than the success that comes from winning a single race. Like it is not worth dying for. It is not worth injuring yourself for longevity purposes. Um, some days it's just not your day. And in his case, he was two weeks off of running Badwater 135. So, you know, going into that race, I'm sure he wasn't at his best.

• 40:12Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  So why put yourself at risk and just wait for that next opportunity?

• 40:17Cameron Hanes?

  I think he loves the community and the competition and the Vince. And I just want to say, I, I love, I mean, Harvey is one of my favorite, I've never even met him, but he just seems like an amazing person. And yeah, so much respect, but I'm, I'm glad to hear that. And like, yeah, that is, that is the approach we all should have. It's just our egos do get in for sure in our heads and push us sometimes beyond where we should. But yeah, it sounds like you, you have a great perspective on that too. Um, yeah. Cause you, I mean, you are pushing to essentially your limit. I was thinking, you know, you've

• 40:58Cameron Hanes?

  heard that quote, all, all defeat is psychological. Is that, it's like, it seems true in that example you just said, unless I guess your body sabotages you.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:11Cameron Hanes?

  Because otherwise, all that changed from your 21 yard to your 94 yard is your mental approach. So you're like, just tell me in that race, so the five people left, one shook your hand. How'd you finish up in that race?

• 41:27Speaker 01

  I was the last person.

• 41:28Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. So you won.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  I won in 38 loops, I believe it was.

• 41:33Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. Well, so in, in that race, compared to your first one, did the training change?

• 41:40Speaker 01

  Not really.

• 41:40Cameron Hanes?

  Did your body change?

• 41:41Speaker 01

  Not really.

• 41:41Cameron Hanes?

  Did your preparation? I mean, it was like, you were just different mentally.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  It was, so this is why I think it's really important to have the right crew with you. And if you can find people that will consistently crew you, they'll get better at being able to articulate and identify what you need in a given moment. And when you're going through these races, there will be so much doubt that will enter into your mind, that you will forget the why, for why you showed up to that race, why you should continue going, what your own belief in your own capabilities are. And your crew can re-instill the belief

• 42:26Speaker 01

  in you when you forget who you are. And that was the difference for me in that race was I forgot why I showed up there and I forgot what I was actually capable of. And in that moment, my dad and my crew, when we all got back, they reminded me that I could keep going. And that's all I needed, that belief that I had lost sight of.

• 42:55Cameron Hanes?

  So I'm wondering in that situation, has your, so sometimes when people give me advice, but they haven't done the thing, I'm like, what the fuck are you, you don't know shit. You've never done this. So it didn't, I guess it's different because it's your dad. I'm assuming your dad hasn't done and won back air ultras. But he's just coming from a place of love and you respect him. So you're gonna listen. If it's not your dad, is it hard to take advice from people who haven't quote been in the, you know, in the shit before, or do they just need to know you and care about you? And that's good enough.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  It's that one.

• 43:30Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  It's that one.

• 43:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I need to do better.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Because if you have people that you trust, that can speak truthfully to you, even if, especially when it's things you don't want to hear.

• 43:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Then you know that what they're saying to you holds weight. So loop sixty seven at Lassol was my most difficult loop. I was on my hands and knees on the course, like, what the heck am I going to do?

• 44:02Cameron Hanes?

  What was happening? What was, what was the feeling?

• 44:04Speaker 01

  The feeling was just, um,

• 44:08Speaker 01

  there were more people in the race at that time than any other race I'd been a part of.

• 44:13Cameron Hanes?

  So.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  The longest distance I had gone was seventy three.

• 44:17Cameron Hanes?

  And how many people were left it?

• 44:19Speaker 01

  I want to say five or six, if not more.

• 44:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  You know, um, it felt like there were thirty people out there.

• 44:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  And so the pain that I was experiencing there was then being projected out to if there's, let's say there was five people left. If there's five people here at sixty seven, I know the statistic likelihood that this race is going to go a hundred. And so I'm looking at another thirty three hours in this.

• 44:51Cameron Hanes?

  And you're on your hands and knees.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  And I'm on my hands and knees. I'm like, I don't want to take one more step.

• 44:55Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  How am I going to be able to go another day and then some?

• 44:59Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  And deal with this.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  But I knew, I knew I had more in me. Like I knew that I wasn't ready to be done from a physical side point. I knew it was like my belief and my willingness, or in that moment, it was a lack of willingness to want to proceed to walk, walk in that. And so I called my friend Cody and my friend Alex. And I called those two people because they're two people that I can call and say, this is really hard. And I can cry and I can know that they will listen to me and also say, it's okay.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  I know this is difficult, but I also know that you are strong enough to keep going. And just being able to hear that from somebody that I know, love and trust

• 45:56Speaker 01

  reminds me that I'm not doing this alone, that I'm not out here suffering on an island by myself, that I can continue to walk and know that

• 46:08Speaker 01

  this pain is again, just a moment in time. And I've got a whole crew of people behind me that are taking on that pain because they don't want to see me hurt. I think what they would really like to say, at least early on with my wife is like, I don't want to see you suffer. Stop.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  That's what they want to say. But what they say, what they need, what I need to hear is no, you, you are capable of this. And I believe you are.

• 46:42Cameron Hanes?

  Do, do you ever hear that you should stop or it's okay to stop? Do you, do they ever say that to you?

• 46:51Speaker 01

  In my first race that Lucy crewed me at,

• 46:56Speaker 01

  there was, she had a hard time with it because I was really suffering.

• 47:03Cameron Hanes?

  There's no way my wife could go.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  My, so, uh, this race in Wisconsin, the Walsall Ultra is close enough where my dad can drive to. So he, he comes and shows up and I guess I found this later, but Lucy was, when I'd go out for my loops, she would cry back at the, she's like, he's in so much pain. And my dad's like, you can't cry.

• 47:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  No, like he can't see you like this. You have to keep encouraging him. And again, it builds trust when I can get to the other side of that. And she can see, oh, but you looked like you were in hell there. How are you feeling good at this point?

• 47:45Cameron Hanes?

  All right.

• 47:46Speaker 01

  You know, and so since then, no, nobody has said like, okay, dude, you should stop.

• 47:52Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 47:52Speaker 01

  Like.

• 47:53Cameron Hanes?

  Well, I, I mean, in the clips I've seen, I've never seen you struggle. I mean, I'm sure there's clips out there that you do, but you always, you know, I don't know if you're acting or not, but man, you always look bulletproof.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, the, the parts where I'm really struggling, those aren't being broadcasted.

• 48:16Cameron Hanes?

  Is it because you're not doing that from the camera intentionally?

• 48:20Cameron Hanes?

  Or you're doing it out on the course?

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:22Cameron Hanes?

  And so by the time you get back, because when you get back,

• 48:28Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, you almost have to put on an act for your, do you have to put on an act for your crew too?

• 48:33Speaker 01

  No.

• 48:33Cameron Hanes?

  So they, so you can be genuine with this.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:35Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  That's the only way you can build trust.

• 48:38Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, gotcha. Uh, yeah. So anyway, I was just wondering when the struggling happens because I've never seen it.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  The struggling happens out on the course. Cause once you, you're closing on the loop, you're like, okay, I made it.

• 48:49Cameron Hanes?

  I'm back.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  I'm good.

• 48:50Cameron Hanes?

  It's all good.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  We did it.

• 48:51Cameron Hanes?

  You get a break now.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  I get a break.

• 48:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  And, but out on the course, that's where it's happened. Where I'll either physically lay down on the course or I'll just be walking and just like, really contemplating and you know, that doubt is creeping into my mind. And that story that's being written in my mind of I'm not good enough. I don't deserve to be here. I'm not as strong as these other athletes, like all that stuff. Yeah, I might look bulletproof, but the only reason I look that way or people, you know, I'll clap in the, the starting corral or I'll high five everybody coming in and I'll get the crowd going. That is more of a celebration of coming out of that darkness.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Because this is kind of the arc. The first twenty four hours might be the most difficult because there's hundreds of other people there. You're just getting into the race. You're going from like normal state of being to, okay, now we're twenty hours into this, this sucks. You haven't really invested enough to be there and you're just like, I don't know, this, this is not like fun, you know? Then you climb your way out of that. Day two comes, you know, the sunrise happens. And then from, from that little peak, it's just all downhill. Slowly loop by loop until you hit a point where you have to make a decision.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  And that decision comes and it's really difficult to do so. It's like, there might be five people in the race. Your body is completely broken down from sixty plus hours of running. You're mentally fatigued. You haven't really slept in three days. You, the food you're eating no longer is sounding good anymore. So you're having a hard time forcing food down. Like it's just a whole concoction of, this sucks.

• 50:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  You know, but the, for me, what gets me out of that is, is not just like mentally deciding, but full committing to this, like, I don't care what happens of the outcome of this race. I'm going to be here until I physically, mentally, emotionally cannot be out here anymore. And it's in making that commitment that I know I'm walking towards more pain and yet I'm still going to do it anyway. That to me gets me out of that and be like, okay, what can hurt me anymore? Nothing can hurt me anymore because I've already made a commitment to experience the pain that this race is going to, to offer.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  And the unknown no longer matters because I'm beginning to enjoy it. And like I said earlier, it's like, if there's something you're enjoying, you don't care about if you don't know the end of it. It's only the things that you are struggling with when you don't know the end of it, where the unknown of time becomes an issue.

• 51:53Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 51:54Speaker 01

  But if you're enjoying it, I'll be in this all day.

• 51:57Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'll sit in this all day.

• 52:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah. You don't.

• 52:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I guess you don't get bored at Disneyland, right? So if you enjoy it, like I would get bored. But if, I guess if you enjoy it, you could be there all day. So you kind of trick yourself into like, no, this is, yeah, this is awesome.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  I wouldn't call it a trick.

• 52:20Cameron Hanes?

  No?

• 52:21Speaker 01

  It's not like I'm just trying to deceive myself.

• 52:24Cameron Hanes?

  It's, it's real.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Decisive, it's a decision to say, I'm not leaving.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  I'm not leaving.

• 52:31Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  Even, even if it gets more painful, good, because I'm not going anywhere. I've already decided, I've already decided right there in this moment that I'm going to keep going.

• 52:42Cameron Hanes?

  So I wonder if, so you said, even if it gets more painful, good. Most people, you know, and it's hard to have that mindset when you're, you know, been battling for so long. But most people, when it gets more painful, that's a sign to quit. Like something's wrong. I'm, I can't deal with this. I'm out. And I've been in plenty of races where I wanted something to go wrong. So I had a reason to quit. And it's like, if it never happens, like there's never that, you know, I mean, I've thought, I could say I tweaked my hamstring. I could say I, you know, rolled my ankle. Who would know?

• 53:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:25Cameron Hanes?

  I would, I'm the only person that knows. But when there's nothing wrong, you're just tired or exhausted.

• 53:35Cameron Hanes?

  It's hard to quit. It's, it's like, yeah, it's like you almost need a bone sticking out. So you'd be like, see, see, this is why I quit.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:43Cameron Hanes?

  This is the only reason.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:45Cameron Hanes?

  But without that, then it, like I said, it's, it's psychological. It's like, you just don't want to deal with that discomfort.

• 53:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:56Speaker 01

  I've gotten good at identifying

• 54:01Speaker 01

  when I am building a narrative in my mind that will give me

• 54:07Speaker 01

  these reasonable justifications to step away. Like if I'm, because I do that too, where I'm like, man, I wish, I wish it would thunderstorm so badly that they just end this race. I wish this tree would fall down and I get hurt and they like, they gotta drag me off this course.

• 54:25Speaker 01

  I, and in that it's like, I want a reason

• 54:30Speaker 01

  for my failure to be something that can still be celebrated.

• 54:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 54:36Speaker 01

  And that is, that's that weakness.

• 54:39Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  That's the weakness. And so I know when those thoughts are going. I know when that narrative is starting to build. And I think the greatest, the greatest feedback I've gotten came from Becca at the mid-state mile, one of the race directors there. And I was going through, this is the, the race I, I gave the assist, I didn't give the assist. Harvey won, beat me at the race.

• 55:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 55:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. But I was thinking there, a rainstorm came in and I was like, please, God, please. End this race, end this race, end this race. Or please let me trip on a rock and get concussed. Like let me, like, please let me have that happen because then I won't have to make the decision to walk away.

• 55:28Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  I don't want to live with that decision. And I was in my mind contemplating and going back and forth and thinking about all these different ways of how I could get out of the situation I was in. And this is around, you know, 10:00 PM when Becca looked at me on the course and she said, Mark, you are wavering in your mind. If you want to be there, if you think you can be here, if you think you deserve to be here, you need to make a decision. What are you going to do?

• 56:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 56:02Speaker 01

  And it's like, in that moment, she didn't ask me, you know, how are you feeling? What are you thinking about? She's like, what are you, what are you gonna do?

• 56:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  You, you, you're walking through hell. I can see it.

• 56:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 56:15Speaker 01

  What are you gonna do about it? What, what actions are you gonna take to move forward despite all of the stuff that you're dealing with internally? That you're dealing with physically, because you still have a choice.

• 56:27Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  And so for me, it's, it's trying to identify when those narratives are happening and then say, hmm, I still have a choice. I still have an opportunity. This goes back to something you said of like, I still have an opportunity to write the story that I want to write. The pen is in my hand right now.

• 56:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  Because every step I take is evidence that that story is not the full truth.

• 56:50Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  So I'm going to keep moving forward. I'm going to keep providing myself evidence in every single step that I take. And I'm going to prove that that voice in my head is not telling the truth. It's there to keep me safe and protective and I appreciate that. But in this moment, that's not what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to go further.

• 57:10Cameron Hanes?

  How, after that talk with her, how far did you go?

• 57:14Speaker 01

  I went another 12 hours.

• 57:17Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 57:18Speaker 01

  Of one mile loop.

• 57:19Cameron Hanes?

  That was, that was a big difference.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:21Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, 12 hours is half day. That's a lot of effort.

• 57:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it, it, because I knew, at a certain point, I knew Harvey was gonna win. And after Becca had said that.

• 57:32Cameron Hanes?

  How did you know?

• 57:33Speaker 01

  I just.

• 57:34Cameron Hanes?

  He was just looking fresher or?

• 57:37Speaker 01

  He was looking fresher. I was suffering from the very first loop. Like it was such a hard course. One mile loop, every 20 minutes, 340 feet of elevation gain per loop. Two massive climbs that were, you know, an average of 30% grade. Some of the climbs were 60% grade. And I was, I was just struggling. Was getting back with two minutes and just not able to eat food, not even, I was hallucinating like crazy. The format was something different than I was used to. The elevation climbing was different than I was used to.

• 58:16Cameron Hanes?

  Was that just this year?

• 58:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was back in June.

• 58:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So I just wanted, I just wanted to say, it's like, you are, you know, you've won seven backyard ultras, but it's not like it's easy. I mean, just like this race here, you didn't, you didn't win, you still learned, you still had to like dig deep and get, it's like, this shit's hard.

• 58:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 58:36Cameron Hanes?

  It's, and that's, that's why we love it.

• 58:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:39Cameron Hanes?

  It's hard.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:40Cameron Hanes?

  And it definitely, you know, it tests you. You figure out who you are. You figure out what's important to you. Figure out where you get strength. You figure out if you're honest with yourself, where your weakness comes from.

• 58:56Cameron Hanes?

  You can be enriched in your faith out there because it's so real and, and

• 59:04Cameron Hanes?

  yeah, I mean, it just, it's just a test in every ways, but, but I think that should be encouraging for people because you still struggled, but then you go and do superhuman efforts, you know? So it's like, it's part of being a human. It's like, yeah, we never have it fricking

• 59:20Speaker 01

  No.

• 59:21Cameron Hanes?

  nailed. Never.

• 59:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 59:23Cameron Hanes?

  We start, we do these hard, super hard, challenging things, or just life in general, there's gonna be challenges. How are you gonna respond? And so I, I love hearing that.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, there is, I've gone 94 hours and I still struggle in the first 24. Like, I think people think that when you get to a certain level, you don't experience the pain. You still do. At the same level, you have always experienced it. You've just built skills to be able to overcome that. And I think that hopefully will give people a ton of confidence. We do this 24 hour backyard simulation because, you know, I want to get people involved. And if you've never done a backyard or you've never run a marathon, like come out and experience what I get to experience out on a backyard course. And this guy, his name is Luke, he drove in from Fargo, North Dakota.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  He had never done more than a marathon and he ended up doing all 24 hours with me and it was great.

• 1:00:19Cameron Hanes?

  Nice.

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  And what I, after, you know, we were sharing, because we're much more open in that environment, because we're not going for, you know.

• 1:00:27Cameron Hanes?

  Competition.

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  And, you know, you know, 15 hours in, I was like, God, this sucks. I'm really hurting. And it was all on pavement and it was one of the hottest weekends of the year in, in Minnesota. And what he shared with me later was that seeing how much I was struggling actually helped him through his pain because he was struggling really badly too.

• 1:00:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  And he's like, well, if Mark is still like, then it is hard. Like what I'm experiencing is hard, but if he's experiencing this then, and he's still going, then I can, I can do it too.

• 1:01:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  So I think.

• 1:01:05Cameron Hanes?

  Gives people permission.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:01:07Cameron Hanes?

  To be like, yeah, I'm, but, but he's pushing, I'll push too.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:10Cameron Hanes?

  And that's, I mean, you, maybe you've heard the story, but like in that, that 2008 Boston Marathon, I was trying to keep up with Lance Armstrong and I was dying. And I finally got up to him and I'm like, how are you feeling? And he's like, he looked over, he's like, fucking dying dude. And I was like, oh shit, Lance is dying? Awesome. Maybe, maybe, okay, we're good then.

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:33Cameron Hanes?

  And it just gave me strength. Cause I'm like, I thought I was gonna be falling off the back and I needed this moment. But then hearing that is like, yeah, shared suffering. It's like, okay, we're both going through something. And that, that somehow gives you strength because they're suffering, you're suffering, but you guys are both still moving.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:54Cameron Hanes?

  And we were, you know, like 630 miles at that time. And it just, yeah, I, I, I, I guess my point is a hundred percent understand that and why that makes a difference, you know?

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think giving permission, giving people permission to know that what they're experiencing is challenging and yet they themselves are stronger than what they're experiencing. People need to hear that.

• 1:02:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah. I think people think that, because like especially seeing you in those clips, it's like, God, does this guy ever get tired? You know, it's like, that's, that's the impression I get. It's like, because we've said on here, you know, what's your actual limit? Because it doesn't look like you've ever been close. Every time you finish a race, you're like, are you not entertained? And like doing these interviews and fucking drinking beer. And it's just like, God, what is going on with this guy?

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:45Cameron Hanes?

  And, but just like anyone, you struggle.

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:49Cameron Hanes?

  You found a way to turn it into something you can use.

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:55Cameron Hanes?

  To, is, is different fuel. It's like, the way I look at it is, yeah, you can be in ketosis and, and eating ketone and then adding some carbs. You got two fuel sources. So it's like, you, you can use your strength as fuel and you can also use your suffering as fuel.

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:12Cameron Hanes?

  That's the way I see it. But.

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  And there is strength in suffering.

• 1:03:16Cameron Hanes?

  Life is suffering, baby. Yeah. I don't, I don't, sometimes I wonder what I'm doing when I'm not suffering. It's like, am I coasting? What, what is this? Is this like?

• 1:03:31Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know. I, I just, I mean, I'm not even like, you know, running is like a side thing, but it's just for hunting. And when I'm hunting, I just want to know I'm giving all I got. I want to suffer. Want to suffer. I want it to be hard. But anyway.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  I don't know. You do pretty good for, for a side thing.

• 1:03:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  You know, you win the masters.

• 1:03:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. It's like being the smartest retard.

• 1:04:00Cameron Hanes?

  But, uh, no offense to you masters winners.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  Or retards.

• 1:04:05Cameron Hanes?

  Or, yeah. No offense, James. Don't take it personal. I wasn't about you. No, it's a, yeah, it's just, it's fascinating. I think what I love about, it's just, it's just a, the, the personal, what is it? What is it? You're just revelation out there. What you learn about yourself that, where else would you learn this shit?

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:30Cameron Hanes?

  You know, unless it's in that, in just like the moments of suffering, where do you learn about your core? Where do you learn about how much you love God or how much you, you know? When, when I'm suffering, I'm like, then I think about how good I have it when I'm not suffering. You know, think about, man, watching Mobland and eating popcorn. It's like pretty easy.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:54Cameron Hanes?

  Pretty nice. And you think about like, I'm gonna be able to do that again, but first I gotta do this. Cause like, to me, I look at everything like I have to, like today we went to good breakfast. I'm like, I can't go to breakfast unless I earn that breakfast. So we did a nice run. Like, okay, I earned that. I can't sit and eat popcorn, watch TV unless I earn it. This is how I look at it. But what do you think?

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  I think it's way more enjoyable when you earn it.

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  I think when you chase the reward, what you think the like breakfast, that's the perceived reward. But the actual reward is the opportunity that you've earned in the suffering aspect. And I think where people might get it wrong is what they see I have now in the material rewards.

• 1:05:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  Is not the reward.

• 1:06:00Cameron Hanes?

  What's the reward?

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  The reward is, the reward is taking the gift that I've been given by God to get every last ounce out of that and multiply it and speak wisdom and hope into people that need to hear it and to be surrounded by people that are also utilizing the gifts that they've been given by God to be in service of that ecosystem.

• 1:06:31Speaker 01

  The reward is walking through suffering at loop 67 and feeling like I'm in hell, which is nothing in comparison to what real hell actually, whether that is the, the metaphysical, like actual place of hell, or the real problems that people have to face, like losing a parent or losing a child, or like the real life pain. Loop 67 is nothing compared to those things, but in that moment, it feels very much.

• 1:07:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:09Speaker 01

  And one, knowing that I'm not alone in that because I have Christ and also knowing I'm not alone in that because I have people that love me enough to sit in that discomfort with me and know that no matter if I step off the course right now, or I stay here and I continue to go through it, nothing about my value has changed. And the freedom of being able to continue, like that, knowing that whatever happens does not define me, gives me the freedom to keep walking through that. And with that freedom, I get to learn that when I walk through that, when I experience

• 1:07:51Speaker 01

  the pain and the suffering and I get to experience my own version of hell in that moment, I get to walk out of the other side of that saying like, I am stronger than that. That is the reward. The reward isn't the win. The reward isn't the growth and following. The, the reward isn't the monetary value that you place on it. The reward isn't even being here. The reward is knowing that I was in what felt like hell and that still did not stop me because I have people around me that love me enough to help me and guide me through that. And through my experience in life, I've built enough strength to be able to call on and

• 1:08:35Speaker 01

  ask for help in those situations and rely on that hope, but also rely on the strength that I have that I've been gifted.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  That's the reward.

• 1:08:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. It's a, does that freedom and knowing that the race doesn't define you, is that, is that a superpower out there? Is that, because these weight of expectations and people believing in us and which is all good, but it can, it can be a weight to carry because when you, you feel like you can't quit, you can't struggle, but you have no choice. That's heavy.

• 1:09:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:16Cameron Hanes?

  That's heavy to carry. But with your approach, that this result doesn't define me, that's freedom.

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:25Cameron Hanes?

  It doesn't mean it's pain free freedom.

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:09:27Cameron Hanes?

  But it is a freedom and I wonder if that burden lessened is what's helping you.

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  I truly believe it has.

• 1:09:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:35Speaker 01

  Because I've.

• 1:09:36Cameron Hanes?

  Well, then it happens because if you believe it, then it has.

• 1:09:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, true.

• 1:09:38Cameron Hanes?

  Whether.

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  Whether it isn't it, yeah.

• 1:09:41Cameron Hanes?

  If you believe it, it helps.

• 1:09:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's so much expectation on me now of, you know, I'm now.

• 1:09:49Cameron Hanes?

  If you don't win, it's like, what happened?

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:51Cameron Hanes?

  What happened to Mark?

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Or if, you know, I go up against Phil or Sam or any other person that has proven their success in a way that I haven't, it's like, see, look, Mark isn't as good as he says he is or as people.

• 1:10:04Cameron Hanes?

  And people are waiting for that.

• 1:10:05Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure.

• 1:10:06Cameron Hanes?

  You know that.

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure. But like, I don't, I don't hold on to any of that because they think that that's what I'm after and they think that's what success is.

• 1:10:15Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  And they think that's what will finally make me a worthy enough athlete or a person to earn their respect. I'm not trying to earn their respect. I don't care about any of that. Yes, I want to win. There's parts of me that want to win, but that's not leading the reason why I'm showing up to the race. So.

• 1:10:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I mean, I, I love that perspective and I don't think it's talked about enough. I mean, it's, what we talk about is a lot of ego driven. I'm going to crush this person and I'm going to show them I'm the best, you know? And like your approach is so much healthier, but it's, I, I just can't help but think how much helpful, how helpful it is to you.

• 1:11:00Cameron Hanes?

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• 1:12:21Cameron Hanes?

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• 1:12:39Speaker 01

  Can I share something?

• 1:12:40Cameron Hanes?

  Of course.

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  It might take a minute for me to pull it up, but it's, it's going to be worth it.

• 1:12:43Cameron Hanes?

  Love to hear it.

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  What you're about to listen to is why I run. This is a part of why I run.

• 1:12:56Speaker 02

  Now we're back to the beginning. It's just a feeling and no one knows yet. But just because they can't feel it too, doesn't mean that you have to forget.

• 1:13:17Speaker 02

  Let your memories grow stronger and stronger till they're before your eyes. You'll come back when they call you. No need to say goodbye. You'll come back when they call you. No need to say goodbye.

• 1:13:51Cameron Hanes?

  Tell me, tell me about that.

• 1:13:53Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:13:58Speaker 01

  That gets me emotional. That's my sister in law. Her name is Lily Coy and she is.

• 1:14:20Speaker 01

  She has been given a gift by God in her voice. And her whole life, she's had this. And

• 1:14:35Speaker 01

  whether it's been fear of judgment, whether it's been stuff she's dealt with in her own personal life.

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  Fear has prevented her from letting that voice be heard.

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  And what I've asked her to do going into these races is to create a playlist where she sings like that. And when I listen to her saying, I am in the presence of God. It's like, pain doesn't exist to me anymore because I know that in her voice, that pain is being transformed into something beautiful.

• 1:15:19Speaker 01

  That is why I run. Because what I'm trying to do is transform pain into something that you can walk away with in your own life and feel like you can do something with that pain. You don't have to run. You don't have to do something physical, but don't allow fear and pain to control your life.

• 1:15:44Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:15:45Speaker 01

  And I listened to that song maybe 500 times in a row at BPN. And then at another race at Lassol, went back and I listened to that.

• 1:15:57Cameron Hanes?

  Do you get emotional when you're listening to it?

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

  Yes, I do.

• 1:16:00Cameron Hanes?

  And why does it make you emotional?

• 1:16:03Speaker 01

  Because it makes me feel like my pain is seen. It makes me feel like

• 1:16:13Speaker 01

  if beauty like that can come out of pain, then what am I complaining about in this moment?

• 1:16:26Speaker 01

  That pain

• 1:16:29Speaker 01

  is just the price that you have to pay.

• 1:16:33Speaker 01

  You don't get

• 1:16:38Speaker 01

  it, it goes back to the reward, like the reward is knowing that this pain is not something that can stop you if you let it. And it gives you back the choice to say, I can either walk forward or I can submit myself to allowing this thing to devour me.

• 1:16:56Cameron Hanes?

  So you so her fear and pain of singing, I guess in public or just singing,

• 1:17:05Cameron Hanes?

  it turns into beauty, which turns into power.

• 1:17:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:08Cameron Hanes?

  And you feel like your pain and fear during the race, because let's face it, we are fearful of how we're feeling and how bad it hurts and you don't want it to continue, but you're hoping your fear and pain can similarly turn into beauty.

• 1:17:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:17:27Cameron Hanes?

  And has it?

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  That's what I hope.

• 1:17:30Cameron Hanes?

  Have you experienced beauty at the end? Is that, is that where the clips that we see, because that is beauty, the strength of pushing is, is beauty, you know, that, that is, that there's, there's artistry in pushing our bodies to that actual limit. So I see that as beauty.

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:48Cameron Hanes?

  And so I see your pain and fear turning into that.

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:52Cameron Hanes?

  Just much like her.

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, the, are you not entertained?

• 1:17:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yep.

• 1:17:56Speaker 01

  The, the howling at the moon in the middle of the night, that is my form of singing. The conversations I have with my crew at, at, at the tent or the post-race interviews of, of you seeing all of me. That is my form of singing.

• 1:18:17Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:18:17Speaker 01

  And I'm just trying to use that to the best of my ability.

• 1:18:22Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:18:23Speaker 01

  And not allow other people to dictate or determine how I sing.

• 1:18:29Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, man, that's good.

• 1:18:33Cameron Hanes?

  That makes total sense.

• 1:18:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I love that. And it's like, that is, I don't know, I feel like is as deep as you are, it's gotta be why you're so good at this shit. It feel, I, I don't know, I mean, I don't know, it's hard to explain. But yeah, thank you for sharing that.

• 1:18:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:57Cameron Hanes?

  And, uh, yeah, I loved hearing that. I love knowing that. So that was written, um, so when they call, what'd she say? You want to call your name, you'll show up or you're back to, or something like, is that for racing specifically? Did she write that for?

• 1:19:09Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 1:19:10Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, it just works.

• 1:19:11Speaker 01

  Those songs are all already, she didn't write those songs.

• 1:19:16Cameron Hanes?

  I, I didn't know if it's for, yeah.

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  No, I'm, so what's really exciting is she started to get in a studio and she's really starting to step out of her comfort zone and, and move toward that, which has been great. Man, I would love for her to, and this is sort of like me putting this out in the world for her to hear, I would love for her to create four or five songs that she writes, that she sings and launches it during the next race I'm in.

• 1:19:46Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, that'd be sick.

• 1:19:47Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:19:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  Cause that, it, she gets me through the darkest times.

• 1:19:52Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  When I cried out on the course and I was able to release all of the tension, release everything that I was putting expectations on myself, she allowed me to do that. Other people need to hear that.

• 1:20:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:08Speaker 01

  Other people need to be helped in surrendering to their situation and see that, oh, if Mark can do it, then I can do it. But again, if Lily can do it, then who else is she going to inspire that I could never reach?

• 1:20:23Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Yeah, that's, uh, that's powerful for sure. It's, uh, is that your wife's sister?

• 1:20:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:20:30Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:20:32Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, I think that's the, that's the stuff I want to learn when I talk to people. It's like, we all see the interviews, we all see the, the clicks or the whatever, quick bait videos.

• 1:20:48Cameron Hanes?

  But yeah, I love learning, I just love, you know, learning what makes people who they are. And like, that's a big part of who you are is that strength you get from that, which you've, you know, parlayed into strength that you need.

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:04Cameron Hanes?

  And during races, but yeah, that's powerful.

• 1:21:10Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, uh, a, a diff, well, the transition here, I'm just curious. You've blown up, you know, since, obviously since BPN.

• 1:21:22Cameron Hanes?

  What has been the professionalism of what you do? Like, I know you've struggled, you were doing all sorts of jobs, trying to make money. I think you said in February, you were like minus $72 in the hole. And now it looks like you're just crushing it with sponsors, you're meeting with, you know, working on shoe deals. It's like, tell me about it. What, what's it been like?

• 1:21:46Speaker 01

  It has been overwhelming at times, but it's been, I, I feel so incredibly blessed and grateful for it all. And

• 1:22:00Speaker 01

  grateful that Lucy and I have been able to do it together. Because when I left my full-time job back in 2023 to take running full-time and I was literally making no money, just living off savings and hoping that I would land a sponsor and that YouTube would work out where I'd get paid and none of that happened. And, uh, you know, we were not engaged at this point, but there was hard conversations of like, how are we gonna, how, how's this gonna work? How is this, how is this gonna work?

• 1:22:32Cameron Hanes?

  Do her parents like, like what, so what does Mark do again?

• 1:22:35Speaker 01

  Question marks.

• 1:22:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. What is Mark doing?

• 1:22:37Speaker 01

  How is he? I think, uh, I think, uh, there was a video of me finding $5 on the ground during a run. And I'm like, finally I got paid as a runner. I don't think that went over too well at her.

• 1:22:52Speaker 01

  So just being able to do that together and, um, you know, she tells me, I don't care about the success. We, we were, we were together when there was nothing.

• 1:23:04Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:23:05Speaker 01

  And now being in a position where for me, uh, this is what I wanted. Ever since I saw the Iron Cowboy in that documentary, when I was fresh out of college, I'm like, that's what I want to do with my life.

• 1:23:17Cameron Hanes?

  Was that his 50 and 50 and 50?

• 1:23:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:20Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. So yeah, James Lawrence stud.

• 1:23:23Speaker 01

  Absolute stud.

• 1:23:24Cameron Hanes?

  Love that guy.

• 1:23:25Speaker 01

  But like, that is what I, I saw this, I saw a man providing for his family, doing it in this really cool, unique way, creative way, athletic suffering way. And I was like, I want to do that. That was my mission.

• 1:23:39Cameron Hanes?

  Did you think you had what it took at that time?

• 1:23:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did.

• 1:23:41Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:23:42Speaker 01

  I did.

• 1:23:43Cameron Hanes?

  Based on delusion?

• 1:23:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. But I, you know, the, the type of

• 1:23:50Cameron Hanes?

  I thought I could make the NBA.

• 1:23:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:52Cameron Hanes?

  So didn't, I got screwed over, obviously.

• 1:23:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:58Speaker 01

  You got cut.

• 1:23:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  Or you got hurt and

• 1:24:00Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:24:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:24:01Cameron Hanes?

  Well, James got hurt in the fifth grade, his knee. Yeah, so that, that ruined his NFL career, basically.

• 1:24:10Speaker 01

  It's tough, James.

• 1:24:11Cameron Hanes?

  He was gonna be a cheerleader.

• 1:24:17Cameron Hanes?

  They have those now.

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:18Cameron Hanes?

  I think the Vikings, they got some guys like James.

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:22Cameron Hanes?

  Don't they?

• 1:24:23Speaker 01

  Just like James, actually.

• 1:24:26Speaker 01

  Never too late.

• 1:24:28Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:29Speaker 01

  But it it's been it's been good because everything that I both Lucy and I believed when we had no reason to believe except for the work and the knowledge of like us knowing that it was going to happen with time. Now that it's a reality, it feels like we can breathe a little bit, like we have some room to play with. And I mean, hopefully she doesn't get upset with me sharing this, but going to BPN, we were

• 1:25:03Cameron Hanes?

  She won't.

• 1:25:04Speaker 01

  She won't. Well, yeah.

• 1:25:06Cameron Hanes?

  And I don't know her at all.

• 1:25:07Speaker 01

  Going going into BPN,

• 1:25:11Speaker 01

  we were picking up supplies to go and my credit card got declined. Like we had nothing. And it's a very different situation now.

• 1:25:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:22Speaker 01

  But like, that's the hole that we were in.

• 1:25:26Cameron Hanes?

  So tell me, like, were you, was it a conversation? I don't know if you can be 100% honest, but the conversation was, if I win this, we're gonna, I'll be able to get signed, I'll this and that, like, were you, was it, I could see that coming up when your your credit card doesn't work.

• 1:25:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:45Cameron Hanes?

  Like, I just have to perform here and I can do it. It's like, did you have, were you thinking that?

• 1:25:52Speaker 01

  Um, to a certain degree, yes, because we always Lucy's what? She just started her second trimester. So we are having a child in March. And going into BPN, we wanted to start to have a family, but we weren't

• 1:26:12Cameron Hanes?

  Not a great start.

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  Not a great start.

• 1:26:16Speaker 01

  And so I had moved some things around and was like, we're gonna take care of this, all this debt right now. It came from a place where it was

• 1:26:25Cameron Hanes?

  You mean in the race, like your performance?

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:26:30Speaker 01

  In, I won't get into it.

• 1:26:32Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:26:34Speaker 01

  But going into the race, I had built this thought in my mind that every single competitor on the course was preventing Lucy and I from starting a family.

• 1:26:47Cameron Hanes?

  That's superpower right there. You got to tell the story you want to hear.

• 1:26:50Speaker 01

  So

• 1:26:53Speaker 01

  I didn't know how, like, I didn't know BPN would sign me. I didn't know that I would grow a social media following from it, but I went in there saying, you're in my way from starting a family. Lucy and I want to start a family.

• 1:27:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I mean, not, you only had a couple

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  Rubbed a couple pennies together.

• 1:27:12Cameron Hanes?

  I'm putting all this in.

• 1:27:13Speaker 01

  Some Monopoly money.

• 1:27:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:18Speaker 01

  Couple dried out zins.

• 1:27:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:21Speaker 01

  But that's the mentality I went in there with.

• 1:27:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:25Cameron Hanes?

  I'll just, I mean, I have been in position, we're chasing a dream where I, like, I've taken out second mortgages. I'm not on this house, but on my first house and like, so dumb, because you you earn this equity in your house, but I would take out second mortgages and somehow convince my wife it was for something for the house, but use it for hunting. And I'm like, this is going to pay off.

• 1:27:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:51Cameron Hanes?

  I just, all I need, I just need to get a couple kills, write a couple articles, and it's going to work out. But I mean, so I've

• 1:27:59Speaker 01

  It did.

• 1:28:00Cameron Hanes?

  It did, but it's not, not the smartest.

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  Would you recommend anybody else doing that?

• 1:28:06Cameron Hanes?

  Hell, no.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:07Cameron Hanes?

  No, because, yeah, you could lose your house.

• 1:28:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:10Cameron Hanes?

  If your, if your arrow doesn't fly where it's supposed to. But, yeah, so I mean, I can totally relate to that, you know?

• 1:28:20Cameron Hanes?

  What am I going to do? I have to, I have to perform.

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:25Cameron Hanes?

  And so I get that. And it worked.

• 1:28:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:29Cameron Hanes?

  How long after that race did you get signed by BPN?

• 1:28:32Speaker 01

  That race was, what, April 10? By May 1, I was a BPN athlete officially for the first month.

• 1:28:40Cameron Hanes?

  And how is, like, how has been working with, Nick's been great. I love Nick, but and Steph, but how's that been?

• 1:28:48Speaker 01

  I have zero complaints. I, I don't interact with Nick really at all.

• 1:28:55Cameron Hanes?

  They have an athlete manager or something?

• 1:28:56Speaker 01

  They have Sam, who is the director of partnerships, who we get on monthly calls with, which is great because all the athletes come together. The guys who deserve all the flowers in the world is their media team. Landry, Oz, Trey, I know there's going to be some guys that I forget to name, but like, those guys, really getting to know them has been a true blessing because they are just like normal dudes that make incredible cinema. And the one, you know, that James was heavily involved in was the one that came out recently, just a few days ago, was episode

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  two, leading into bigs, and they took every single podcast that I had been on and used that for a 10 minute video of like a seamless storyline. And they came out to film episode one, we had them in our home for a few nights, and it was just like, man, this is, this is what I've been missing in sport because I come from a sports team background.

• 1:29:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:59Speaker 01

  Where we're on a bus for 24 hours going to games and we're competing and battling against teams together and we're practicing every day. And running isn't like that. You know, you're out there training solo for the most part, or even the the gym that I go to, Yokum's, like, there's other athletes or people there working out, but they're not, you know, they might be working out just to stay in shape.

• 1:30:23Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:30:23Speaker 01

  There's not like, they're not bought into the things that I'm bought into. So the team environment is way different.

• 1:30:29Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:30:30Speaker 01

  So having guys like BPN and their media team come out, it's like, oh, this is, this feels at least like we're on the same team here. So the sponsorships that I have have felt a lot like that in not, you know, they, they're in Texas, I'm in Minnesota, so I don't get to see them a whole lot.

• 1:30:47Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:30:47Speaker 01

  In moments like that, it's great. It's great to feel like you have support.

• 1:30:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And I mean, partnerships basically are people believing in you. And that always feels good. Yeah, we believe in you. We're going to actually pay you to represent the brand. That's meaningful.

• 1:31:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:01Cameron Hanes?

  You know, that's, it's, yeah. And, and, you know, I'm loyal to my partners too, so I understand that. So tell me, tell me about Rapid. And then, I mean, you ran in Speedland today. So that's like

• 1:31:17Speaker 01

  Great.

• 1:31:17Cameron Hanes?

  Emerging partnership. But, yeah, tell me, tell me about your other partners.

• 1:31:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'll touch on Speedland. They're not an official partner, but they are a shoe that I've, you know, I was running beer miles and run both Arrowheads and they helped sponsor the documentary that Caleb put together for that race and they helped fund a little bit of that.

• 1:31:41Cameron Hanes?

  Caleb?

• 1:31:41Speaker 01

  Caleb is a documentary.

• 1:31:44Cameron Hanes?

  Not, not, not our Caleb, right?

• 1:31:47Speaker 01

  Okay. Caleb, so he reached out to me like, three years ago. And he's like, I want to work with you. I'll show up to a race, like, I'll film. And I was like, I, dude, I have no money. I'm not able to pay you. Then was, you know, he was in, I think, South Carolina at the time, then he moved to, he's on the eastern side of Oregon, and he films hunt videos for a private guide for this TV show. I forget the name of it, but he reached out to me before Arrowhead and he said, I don't care that you don't have money. I want to come film the Arrowhead documentary for you. I was like, okay, like, let's do it. So he came out and

• 1:32:31Speaker 01

  filmed and Speedline got involved to sponsor that and help cover some things. So they've been great, wore their shoes at Last Soul, won it in those shoes, and got to meet them for the first time in person the other day. So, you know, working on what bigs will look like for that. But Rapid, that's been a partnership that has been,

• 1:32:54Speaker 01

  to me, they are the embodiment of what it means to be devoted to their athletes. And I think most of that, I know Alex is a big part of that. I see Kim as just an incredible and high character and integrity guy. Like, he's 23 years old, and yet I admire him. I look up to him because he, he, when he says he's going to do something, he actually follows through. Like, me getting to the race in a private jet, he was like, I don't care, we're getting you here no matter the cost. And so I

• 1:33:33Cameron Hanes?

  What did that cost, you know?

• 1:33:36Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:33:37Cameron Hanes?

  Because

• 1:33:38Speaker 01

  I'm sure, you know, you can look up private jet flights. They're 30, well, 30 to 50.

• 1:33:43Cameron Hanes?

  I know how far the flight was, but

• 1:33:45Speaker 01

  It's a 20 minute flight.

• 1:33:46Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay. Well, that helps. Yeah.

• 1:33:49Speaker 01

  So he

• 1:33:51Cameron Hanes?

  It's a lot of money.

• 1:33:51Speaker 01

  It's a lot. I mean, yeah, it worked out.

• 1:33:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, flying private's sick.

• 1:33:57Speaker 01

  You know, Cam, it's not all that, that's cracked up to be.

• 1:34:00Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:34:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:02Speaker 01

  It's a little cramped in there.

• 1:34:03Cameron Hanes?

  You've done it a lot, then.

• 1:34:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I did it once, probably want to do it again.

• 1:34:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I love, I love the, I mean, I love Kim, Alex, is Alex involved in that or no?

• 1:34:15Speaker 01

  The Alex that we, we talk about generally, no.

• 1:34:18Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:34:19Speaker 01

  He was an athlete and then he recently stepped away.

• 1:34:22Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, gotcha. Yeah. Yeah, it seems like they're, I mean, I guess it's Kim, but the brand building?

• 1:34:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:30Cameron Hanes?

  Fucking nuts.

• 1:34:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:31Cameron Hanes?

  He's good.

• 1:34:32Speaker 01

  He's a visionary.

• 1:34:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And then this, this Last Soul, oh, whoo, how did I almost forget this? Tell me about, there's 158 competitors at Last Soul.

• 1:34:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:46Cameron Hanes?

  You said you wanted to take 159 souls. We never talked about that.

• 1:34:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:52Cameron Hanes?

  What does that mean?

• 1:34:53Speaker 01

  What does?

• 1:34:53Cameron Hanes?

  How do you take one more soul than the race has?

• 1:34:56Speaker 01

  So from what I,

• 1:35:01Speaker 01

  from what I understood, there were 159 people that showed up to that race. That was, that was my understanding.

• 1:35:10Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:35:12Speaker 01

  And I can't take all 159 souls, at least I thought at that time.

• 1:35:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:19Speaker 01

  Because then I'd be taking myself out of the competition. So I just wanted to make it very clear to whoever was listening, that I was going to be there until I collected every single soul that I came for. And it wasn't going to be mine. There was only one person left in the race at that point.

• 1:35:43Cameron Hanes?

  But so it wasn't one more soul than the racers you had to beat?

• 1:35:50Cameron Hanes?

  Cause it feels like from the outside looking in.

• 1:35:57Cameron Hanes?

  Was it a coach's soul? May- maybe a competitor's coach that you're like, maybe I should just take that soul too while we're at it?

• 1:36:09Speaker 01

  Have you ever seen that Oprah clip? Where she's walking out?

• 1:36:13Cameron Hanes?

  Is this answering a question with a question?

• 1:36:15Speaker 01

  She says, you get a bag, you get a bag, you get a bag.

• 1:36:17Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:36:18Speaker 01

  Hey.

• 1:36:19Cameron Hanes?

  I get your soul, I get your soul, I get your soul. Okay, got it. Yeah. So who, whoever's around.

• 1:36:23Speaker 01

  Who's ever.

• 1:36:24Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:36:25Speaker 01

  Whoever, um.

• 1:36:30Cameron Hanes?

  Whoever wants some.

• 1:36:33Speaker 01

  Get some.

• 1:36:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, okay. Um, God, I forgot to, I forgot to ask that, but I wanted to get to it. Clip that. No.

• 1:36:45Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, here's another question. You get a lot, you're getting a lot of attention.

• 1:36:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:51Cameron Hanes?

  You're on fucking Theo Von.

• 1:36:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:55Cameron Hanes?

  Theo Von? So.

• 1:36:59Cameron Hanes?

  In the era of attention economy or attention, the attention economy. That people notice that.

• 1:37:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:07Cameron Hanes?

  So in the backyard world, you're being celebrated so much. But there could be some people say, well, he's not even the best. Why is he getting all this attention?

• 1:37:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:20Cameron Hanes?

  What do you say to that?

• 1:37:22Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:37:29Speaker 01

  I don't think it's results that.

• 1:37:35Speaker 01

  Let me take a step back. People like Theo Von. Do not relate or care about the intricacies of the results of competition.

• 1:37:47Cameron Hanes?

  Or who's the best?

• 1:37:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:50Cameron Hanes?

  The, the, what I would say is you're an interesting person.

• 1:37:53Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:37:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. That's who people want to talk to on a podcast.

• 1:37:57Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:37:59Speaker 01

  The reason, the way in which Theo found me.

• 1:38:04Speaker 01

  Which I think is, we'll answer this question.

• 1:38:06Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:38:07Speaker 01

  Is he was laying in bed, four thirty in the morning and a clip of mine. From talking about my BPN race where I said, you know. Sixty hours into that race, I laid down on the course and I just asked myself. If the version of me 24 hours from that moment would be proud of the effort I put in that day. If I chose to step off the course right then and there. And the honest answer was that version of me would say, get the F up. You have so much more in you. So you have to keep going.

• 1:38:49Speaker 01

  That clip spoke to Theo in a moment where he needed to hear that. And so he got up right away and he went to the gym and he started working out.

• 1:39:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I love, I love Theo.

• 1:39:03Speaker 01

  The results don't speak to people. They might help.

• 1:39:10Speaker 01

  Uh, solidify your message as something worth listening to because if you have a message and you can back it up with. Something physical.

• 1:39:19Cameron Hanes?

  Evidence.

• 1:39:19Speaker 01

  Evidence, then that must mean the message that you're portraying has some validity to it. So it's not about being the best. In a space like getting on Theo Von or, or reaching the general public.

• 1:39:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:35Speaker 01

  It's speaking to their experience so that they can feel heard.

• 1:39:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that, I mean, that's a perfect dancer. I, I asked that just because we've dealt with this as a family too. It's like, true, it gets a lot of attention.

• 1:39:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:48Cameron Hanes?

  He's not near the best marathoner in the world, you know, but he gets more attention than almost all of them. And that really rubs people the wrong way. Cause they're like, he doesn't. And they think he doesn't deserve it.

• 1:40:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So it's like, what is deserve?

• 1:40:05Speaker 01

  And who, yeah.

• 1:40:07Cameron Hanes?

  What is deserved? But anyway, I, I want, I'd set that up just because, you know, I even saw a comment. I put up something like, cause when we did our run today, I said. Something like, are you the best in the world? Something like that. And then people have to say, Phil Gore, what? And like, fuck, fine. I don't get, Phil's awesome. He's a badass. I, I'm not. It's just, people have to weigh in, you know, cause they want to make sure you know.

• 1:40:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:31Cameron Hanes?

  They know, I guess. I don't know.

• 1:40:34Speaker 01

  Well, in the same way that people, whether it's friends or people that have been following my path from the very beginning or recently. I'm their guy. And there are people that Phil's their guy.

• 1:40:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:47Speaker 01

  And so they want to see their guy succeed at the highest level. Against especially a guy like me who is undeserving of that.

• 1:40:57Cameron Hanes?

  Ninety-four?

• 1:40:58Speaker 01

  What I'd say is.

• 1:40:59Cameron Hanes?

  Nothing.

• 1:41:01Speaker 01

  I respect Phil. Him and I have had, had gone back and forth in DMs and yeah, there's no bad blood there.

• 1:41:07Cameron Hanes?

  But no racing yet?

• 1:41:08Speaker 01

  We haven't raced together.

• 1:41:09Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:41:10Speaker 01

  So, um, Phil's gone 119. He has a world record.

• 1:41:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:14Speaker 01

  Which is amazing. Um, I have won the last seven backyards and I don't know what my limit is. Maybe I never, maybe I never face a competition. Maybe Phil and I go head to head and let's say I win, but it's a hundred loops. Does that mean Phil's still better than me because he has 119? Like I may never get the opportunity to go 119, 120, 125 hours. Based on the circumstance that happens that day, based on the competitors that show up that day. That's why what Last Soul is doing in 2027 and beyond is creating more opportunities. For competition to happen in a structured way.

• 1:41:57Speaker 01

  So Phil and I will face each other next year and we may face each other multiple times. And then we get to see when the best of the best consistently show up against each other. Instead of just doing one-off races where, well, he did this here and he did this here. It's like, no, we, let's create an ecosystem where people are consistently competing against each other. So we know. Who the undisputed champion of the world is.

• 1:42:25Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, I think about it in terms of Olympics because sometimes. Being the best on that day doesn't satisfy people. I mean, I think about when Centro, who's, who's been on this podcast, he won the gold in Rio in the 1500. In a slow time, because it was a tactical race, people still talk about how slow that race was. He won the Olympic gold medal.

• 1:42:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:50Cameron Hanes?

  It's like, what is he supposed to do? He, he was a, they all started at the start line. He was a first to cross the finish line.

• 1:43:01Cameron Hanes?

  Time, distance, like you said, you, the hundred yards to 119. If, if, you know, you don't, guys don't get there, but you beat them. It's like, what are you supposed to do?

• 1:43:10Speaker 01

  I've never been there. Yeah.

• 1:43:11Cameron Hanes?

  No, I know. But when you go head to head, if you guys go a hundred.

• 1:43:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:43:14Cameron Hanes?

  But you never, you didn't, you don't go 119, but you still win. What are you supposed to do?

• 1:43:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:20Cameron Hanes?

  You know, so it's like these, and people, yeah, it's like, so they can discount an Olympic gold medalist because they didn't reach their definition of. What, what it should mean to, to win the Olympic gold. What, what does that mean?

• 1:43:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:36Cameron Hanes?

  It's nothing.

• 1:43:37Speaker 01

  Well, you've done some hard things, right?

• 1:43:41Cameron Hanes?

  Today, nine mile run.

• 1:43:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Would you ever criticize the effort of an Olympic gold medal?

• 1:43:51Cameron Hanes?

  I don't think so.

• 1:43:52Speaker 01

  Okay. So who do you think the people that wanna pick apart and criticize the most are? Do you think they're doing hard things consistently?

• 1:43:59Cameron Hanes?

  I would.

• 1:44:00Speaker 01

  Do you think they enjoy their lives?

• 1:44:01Cameron Hanes?

  Probably not.

• 1:44:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:02Cameron Hanes?

  No, no. But yeah, so it's like this argument is, I mean, it's, it's sort of, it can almost never be answered because if you're looking for like the furthest distance.

• 1:44:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:14Cameron Hanes?

  There's no guarantee any races going there.

• 1:44:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:44:16Cameron Hanes?

  Cause you could, you can't.

• 1:44:18Speaker 01

  Right. Right. I, I think the way that.

• 1:44:22Speaker 01

  We're starting to think about it with Last Soul too, especially is like, we want to find the best endurance athlete in the world.

• 1:44:28Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:28Speaker 01

  And distance is one determining factor of that, but that's not the whole makeup. So you had, uh, I. James was telling me this yesterday, but you had a motocross guy on here. Like three, four, or five, maybe longer months ago.

• 1:44:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:46Speaker 01

  And.

• 1:44:47Cameron Hanes?

  Cameron McAdoo, is that who you're saying?

• 1:44:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:44:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yes.

• 1:44:50Speaker 01

  And he talked about how when they go to Seattle, the dirt there is different than Texas. And that makes the athletes show up differently and perform differently and have different training so they can prepare for those different environments.

• 1:45:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:03Speaker 01

  If the only metric for being a successful backyard ultra runner is how many loops you do compared to the, the world record, that's a boring sport to me.

• 1:45:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:45:14Speaker 01

  I want to know who can, who can win the race in Minnesota in January, even if it goes 30 loops. You're going to have to be different in order to show up to that race.

• 1:45:25Cameron Hanes?

  To outlast everybody else.

• 1:45:26Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:45:26Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:45:27Speaker 01

  If that's the, if the goal is to be the last person standing, let's find out who can do that in the most unique and creative environments that we can put together. And let's see who comes out of that. Because if the goal is the world record, why don't we make every course as flat as it can possibly be? And that's just what the race is.

• 1:45:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:45Speaker 01

  And then we become just like any other running, you know, any other running league or series or it's boring. That's boring. I want to see suffering and I want to see people overcoming obstacles because that's what I'm out there to do.

• 1:46:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It's a. Yeah, it's, it's just an interesting thing. It's like, I, I guess it's just the, the era that we're in, social media, there's, you know, you, there's critics and supporters and you're just kind of navigating in. There's some people who will never be satisfied. There's some people who are going to be in your corner no matter what.

• 1:46:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:20Cameron Hanes?

  You know, and it's just, it's just pretty interesting. I was just curious on, about your answer on that. And it's, you know, as expected, very, very, uh, well thought out. Um. But yeah, it's, oh, I think Alex told me to ask you about howling. Does, does your, does your crew howl?

• 1:46:39Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, the howling is a, is a call back to Lucy.

• 1:46:43Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:46:44Speaker 01

  Really more than anyone.

• 1:46:45Cameron Hanes?

  Did, did she start the howling?

• 1:46:47Speaker 01

  Um, we both, I don't know who started it.

• 1:46:51Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:46:51Speaker 01

  But, uh, if I hear her howling, I'm going to howl back. If she hears me howling, um, she's going to howl back.

• 1:46:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Okay. And so do you do that when you get to the back each loop or just on a whim?

• 1:47:03Speaker 01

  Just when we're feeling like it.

• 1:47:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:04Speaker 01

  You know, and so, uh, it's funny when people like, oh, he's playing mind games.

• 1:47:10Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:47:11Speaker 01

  It's like, I'm talking to my wife right now.

• 1:47:14Speaker 01

  You're just mentally unstable right now.

• 1:47:17Cameron Hanes?

  But you did howl with ELO, right?

• 1:47:21Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:47:22Cameron Hanes?

  Was there a howl in there somewhere, I thought?

• 1:47:25Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't, maybe, but it was just a call back to my wife.

• 1:47:30Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, right.

• 1:47:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:47:31Cameron Hanes?

  Exactly.

• 1:47:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:32Cameron Hanes?

  Um, and I think back at the beginning, you said there's four things. You said strength. And I think you ended with strength. Did you mean to end with strength or was there actually four different things?

• 1:47:43Speaker 01

  Uh, mental.

• 1:47:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:45Speaker 01

  Physical.

• 1:47:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:46Speaker 01

  Emotional.

• 1:47:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:47Speaker 01

  Spiritual.

• 1:47:48Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, I did. I think we missed spiritual.

• 1:47:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:51Cameron Hanes?

  I think we went, yeah, I don't know what. Anyway, I was just, I was thinking about that when he said it, then I just remembered it.

• 1:47:57Speaker 01

  So I might've said physically strong, mentally strong, emotionally strong, spiritually strong. So maybe the strong was, that's where you got it confused.

• 1:48:05Cameron Hanes?

  Can we roll the tape back?

• 1:48:07Speaker 01

  No. Macy. It's like, uh, dodgeball. Dip, duck, dive, dodge and dip.

• 1:48:15Cameron Hanes?

  Dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball. That's all I know.

• 1:48:18Speaker 01

  It's sterile and I like the taste.

• 1:48:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. How long have we been talking, by the way?

• 1:48:22Speaker 01

  Hour forty-five minutes.

• 1:48:23Cameron Hanes?

  Fuck.

• 1:48:23Speaker 01

  Did, uh, Truitt, did you ask his question?

• 1:48:26Cameron Hanes?

  I think he was.

• 1:48:29Cameron Hanes?

  Let's see. I think he was, oh no, probably asked Mark if he thinks he could get the backyard record too. I think we covered that.

• 1:48:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:40Cameron Hanes?

  Uh, yeah, people are mentioning the intention he's getting when, uh, when Phil's considered the best, wondered his reaction would be if you think he could be the best. So that's, that's all he was curious.

• 1:48:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:51Cameron Hanes?

  But it's just because, I mean, we just get judged.

• 1:48:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:54Cameron Hanes?

  You know, I mean, I get judged as a runner. I don't, it's not even my thing. I'm like, fucking, I bow hunt, guys chill out. But anyway, he, so we're just used to that.

• 1:49:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:03Cameron Hanes?

  You know?

• 1:49:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I, I mean, again, it's like, I don't think, like, let's say I get the world record at my next race. That doesn't make me the best, I don't think.

• 1:49:13Cameron Hanes?

  That day.

• 1:49:14Speaker 01

  That day it does.

• 1:49:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:16Speaker 01

  And for that time, but, um, uh, I was actually, uh, listening to this the other day of like, how do you become a scratch golfer?

• 1:49:24Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:49:25Speaker 01

  And they take the average from what I believe from your last 20 rounds.

• 1:49:30Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:49:31Speaker 01

  And so if that averages your, you being a scratch golfer, then you're a scratch golfer.

• 1:49:36Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:49:36Speaker 01

  And so to me, it's like, what have I done in this stretcher series of races over the last five years?

• 1:49:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah. Judge me on that.

• 1:49:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. Judge me on that.

• 1:49:48Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm. Yeah. I like that. It's a, yeah, I mean, and you'll never satisfy everybody.

• 1:49:53Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:49:53Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, that's all there is to it. But, uh, I, so my, it's not a last question because I've never, never actually done talking, but, uh, who, we've talked about Harvey, but has anybody like in the running sphere inspired you like other than him? I mean, who have you, who have you, yeah, I mean, has anybody inspired you?

• 1:50:17Speaker 01

  Um, yes. And the reason I'm smiling is because he doesn't run.

• 1:50:23Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:50:25Speaker 01

  Because he pushes himself in a wheelchair.

• 1:50:28Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:50:29Speaker 01

  And his name is Mike Egan.

• 1:50:30Cameron Hanes?

  Oh God, I know.

• 1:50:31Speaker 01

  And I've, I've talked about, I talked about him on Theo's podcast, but, um, I think why he inspires me so much is because he made me look at what I believe to be true. Um, and he completely shattered it. Like I.

• 1:50:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, explain that.

• 1:50:53Speaker 01

  I, I claim or pride myself or try and, um, project this idea that, um, anybody is capable of accomplishing

• 1:51:10Speaker 01

  what, um, anyone is a, anyone is capable of accomplishing great things. I'll leave it at that.

• 1:51:17Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:51:18Speaker 01

  And going into BPN, when I saw that Mike was going to be there, I knew absolutely nothing about Mike, except that he was a guy in a wheelchair.

• 1:51:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:27Speaker 01

  And I was like, there's no way, like, there's no way he's going to be able to make it more than a few loops. Like this is, what, what is, what is even happening here? And he completely blew that out of the water. And when I look at a guy like Mike, I look at a guy that does not allow his circumstance to define how he's going to live his life. And he's going to make sure that through the obstacle that he has been now given, that he's going to do everything he can to make the most use out of it.

• 1:52:13Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:52:13Speaker 01

  And, and so for me, I am inspired by that because we get a choice in whatever situation that we're in. And it's what we decide to do with what we've been giving, the cards we've been dealt, and we get to decide what to do with that. And Mike has not allowed his situation to define him, which I'm, I would imagine that is a very difficult thing to live with on a day-to-day basis.

• 1:52:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:43Speaker 01

  Just the little things that we take for granted, Mike has had to find a way to overcome. And so I see a very strong spirited human being that is determined and has a willpower that just is like, I am,

• 1:53:01Speaker 01

  I'm going to overcome this.

• 1:53:02Cameron Hanes?

  He went over a hundred miles, didn't he, in his wheelchair?

• 1:53:05Speaker 01

  At BPN and then he went further. I think he went thirty, I want to say thirty-one loops at La Soul.

• 1:53:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's incredible.

• 1:53:15Speaker 01

  And so it's just like.

• 1:53:16Cameron Hanes?

  And he's dragging his, at BPN, dragging his wheelchair through the mud.

• 1:53:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:21Cameron Hanes?

  It's, yeah, if that doesn't inspire you, I have no idea what would, but that, that's a great answer for sure.

• 1:53:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Incredible. What an incredible man. I hope to shake his hand someday. Um, yeah. Is there, okay, we've talked a lot about positives. What is a negative in, in this journey so far in the, as far as the running community or maybe the, just trying to earn a, earn a place here? Has there been any negatives?

• 1:53:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I mean, I have always felt like an outsider in the running community because I don't traditionally come from that background. I'm a football player. I'm a lacrosse player and I'm trying to run.

• 1:54:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yep.

• 1:54:03Speaker 01

  And I was reading through a journal today that I had from 2022 where I write about how I have no sponsors. I feel like, um, I'm reaching out to people or I'm trying to post to social media and nothing's working. And therefore I feel worthless, like that was dictating my value.

• 1:54:23Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:54:23Speaker 01

  Um, and I tried to act in a way that would get people like the HOKAS of the world, like the people that were sponsored by the HOKAS of the world, to please them because I was like, well, I, I want to do this professionally. I feel like this is, I'm, who I am right now is not being looked at as like the status quo. So I need to join the status quo in order to do that. Um, luckily through faith, I've completely relinquished all of that. That is, um, total BS. Um, and I think what's challenging is that who I am is not the quote unquote runner.

• 1:55:03Speaker 01

  And I think that is why I fit so well into the backyard ultra because the backyard ultra as a sport in and of itself is little brothered to traditional trail running. Like I'll call some people out here, like the Free Trail Broadcast and the Single Track Podcast and all those elite running podcasts didn't say a single thing about La Soul.

• 1:55:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:26Speaker 01

  Probably the best televised running event in the ultra community that has ever existed in the entirety of the sport. And they said nothing about it.

• 1:55:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:40Speaker 01

  And you have people like Charlie Lawrence who make calls out and say, I can break the world record. And then you give them the opportunity and they say, no, I don't want to do that.

• 1:55:47Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:55:49Speaker 01

  It's like, either respect what we do or close your mouth.

• 1:55:53Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Yeah. I get that. Yeah. If it's, uh, right. I mean.

• 1:56:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:01Speaker 01

  That's gonna get clipped.

• 1:56:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's all good. It's, it's the elites are in their own world, I guess. And there's, there's certain podcasts that pander to the elites. And, uh, so I guess people like us will always be outsiders.

• 1:56:13Speaker 01

  Well, and, okay. So, do you know the ultra runner of the year award? Do you know how that gets determined?

• 1:56:21Cameron Hanes?

  I don't.

• 1:56:23Speaker 01

  It's a, I think it's a group of 25, maybe 50 people. And they base it off of races. Not because it's defined this way, it's just fallen into this way of

• 1:56:40Speaker 01

  running Western states, running Leadville, running UTMB. And they base it off of how competitive a race is. So the more people that run UTMB that are being considered for the ultra runner of the year, let's say there's 10 people that are being considered for ultra runner of the year, all run UTMB, and that's more than any other race. UTMB becomes the premier race because they've determined that these people are the most competitive. Therefore, that race is the most competitive. So then it re, it's a self reinforcing of like, the only way to be the best in the sport is to go to those races.

• 1:57:15Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:57:16Speaker 01

  Rachel Entrickin was only considered a respectable runner to the entirety of the running community when she placed second at UTMB.

• 1:57:26Cameron Hanes?

  After she's won 20 some races in a row.

• 1:57:29Speaker 01

  After she just did what no other person has done. She set a new standard for Kokadona 250.

• 1:57:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:36Speaker 01

  But that wasn't good enough because it wasn't, because people like Rachel, people like me, we have to prove ourselves in their arena.

• 1:57:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:45Speaker 01

  Why?

• 1:57:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:46Speaker 01

  Come prove yourself in our arena.

• 1:57:48Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:57:48Speaker 01

  Instead of you saying that, oh, you know, I, I've nothing but respect for the gyms and the Hans Troyers because I couldn't do what they do. I don't want to do what they do, but they also can't do what we do.

• 1:58:00Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:58:01Speaker 01

  But they, not them themselves, but the people that define who's actually elite and who's not. They think that a gym could walk into a backyard and crush it.

• 1:58:12Cameron Hanes?

  Gatekeepers.

• 1:58:13Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:58:14Cameron Hanes?

  Gate, and I think that time is running out on gatekeeping.

• 1:58:19Speaker 01

  I, you think so?

• 1:58:20Cameron Hanes?

  I hope so. Cause I feel like it's been getting called out. And it's just so tribal. It's just like ultras turned into such a tribal thing, but whatever. Who am I?

• 1:58:32Speaker 01

  Well, that's why with the last soul stuff is like,

• 1:58:37Speaker 01

  we don't want your approval.

• 1:58:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:39Speaker 01

  We don't need your approval.

• 1:58:40Cameron Hanes?

  Exactly.

• 1:58:40Speaker 01

  We're going to create something that we think is phenomenal, that's challenging, that's going to storytell authentically, and we're gonna do it better than anybody's ever done it before.

• 1:58:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:51Speaker 01

  So watch out.

• 1:58:52Cameron Hanes?

  I love it. I love that. Um, yeah, that's, that's been, I, I can, yeah, it's been frustrating for me too. So some, somehow dipshit over here sometimes has good questions. I'm sure he doesn't, but do you?

• 1:59:06Speaker 01

  Who is Mark?

• 1:59:07Speaker 03

  I do.

• 1:59:08Cameron Hanes?

  Who is Mark?

• 1:59:11Speaker 03

  Are you ready to answer that?

• 1:59:15Speaker 01

  Is that the question?

• 1:59:16Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:59:16Speaker 01

  No, okay.

• 1:59:17Speaker 03

  Um, well, one, I have to correct your misinformation on a golf handicap.

• 1:59:23Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:59:24Speaker 03

  It's actually the top eight scores of your last 20 averaged. So.

• 1:59:28Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:59:29Speaker 03

  Anyways, uh, you can't get out of here.

• 1:59:31Cameron Hanes?

  Still out of 20, but the top eight of those.

• 1:59:33Speaker 03

  Yeah. So it's even, yeah.

• 1:59:34Speaker 01

  It's even more challenging.

• 1:59:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:37Speaker 03

  Um, yeah. You can't get out of here without a fuck, marry, kill. I hope you know that. So yours are backyard ultras, lacrosse, and, and the calendar club.

• 1:59:52Cameron Hanes?

  Oh. That's an easy one.

• 1:59:56Speaker 03

  I don't think so. This guy loves his calendar club.

• 1:59:59Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:59:59Speaker 03

  Hmm. I am going to,

• 2:00:05Speaker 03

  I'm going to marry the calendar club.

• 2:00:09Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:00:11Speaker 03

  Because I can stay devoted to it.

• 2:00:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:15Speaker 03

  For a more consistent, longer period of time without it being something that,

• 2:00:24Speaker 03

  you know, I can live my day to day life. I can still do calendar club and.

• 2:00:28Cameron Hanes?

  How well does that pay, by the way?

• 2:00:33Cameron Hanes?

  So the calendar club is, so on the first of every month, you run a mile. Is this right?

• 2:00:37Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:00:38Cameron Hanes?

  On the second, on the second, you run two miles on the so and so till 30, 31, you're in 30. How many miles like for the month is that?

• 2:00:47Speaker 03

  On a 30 day month, it's 465. On a 31 mile day month, it's 496.

• 2:00:52Cameron Hanes?

  Gotcha. Okay. So because it pays so well, you're gonna marry that.

• 2:01:00Speaker 01

  I, I mean, I'm not a gold digger, so.

• 2:01:02Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:01:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:03Speaker 03

  I'm in for the commitment.

• 2:01:04Speaker 01

  It appears. Yes. Um,

• 2:01:11Speaker 01

  I'm going to F, um, backyards.

• 2:01:15Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 2:01:15Speaker 01

  And then, I mean, lacrosse is, yeah.

• 2:01:19Cameron Hanes?

  It's done.

• 2:01:19Speaker 01

  It's done. I did, I played an alumni game like a few weeks ago and it is a different, I'm, I'm losing my speed.

• 2:01:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:31Speaker 01

  It's, it was, which made me think is like, I'm the most in shape alumni out there and I was getting gassed.

• 2:01:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:38Speaker 01

  I can't, I was looking around and like, how are you guys even still standing?

• 2:01:41Cameron Hanes?

  Is it because you just don't do the speed stuff?

• 2:01:44Speaker 01

  I do, it's just a different type of.

• 2:01:48Cameron Hanes?

  Explosion type stuff.

• 2:01:49Speaker 01

  And you gotta do, yeah. And, and the cutting's fine. It's just like being on the field for an offensive set, a defensive set, an offensive set. And I used to be able to do that no problem and be explosive and, you know, be in that conditioning shape to do that. But it's just, running's different than that.

• 2:02:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:08Speaker 01

  Just it's.

• 2:02:09Cameron Hanes?

  Definitely. I get it. What else you got?

• 2:02:12Speaker 03

  Okay, question number two. Question number two. Um, obviously you hold yourself to high standards. Do you find that you hold the people in your life that are closest to you also to high standards? And how do you navigate that?

• 2:02:32Speaker 01

  I think the biggest failure I've had as a leader over the years, especially in lacrosse and football, was expecting everybody to work the way that I worked. And so if you weren't doing exactly what I was doing, you were less than. And I think that's a very poor way to lead because everybody has a role and everybody has a certain level of buy-in that they are expecting to walk into any situation with. And, and yes, I think that as a team or a culture or a family unit, there are certain expectations that when you decide you want to be a part of that family,

• 2:03:15Speaker 01

  you are signing the dotted line to live up to those standards as much as you possibly can.

• 2:03:22Speaker 01

  But with the level of intensity, it's, it will change based on the person that's showing up.

• 2:03:34Speaker 01

  And I think where I've shifted is trying to meet the person where they're at and one degree, push them that one degree.

• 2:03:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:45Speaker 01

  Not push them to where I'm at, but push them one degree closer because I'm not perfectly living that standard anyway. And, um, I've, I fall short all the time. Like I'll out myself in this, but you know, I, I, I, I pride myself and I call it out. And part of me calling it out is so that it forces me to have to live this way of like, I want to be a man of my word. I want my actions to meet my words. And, you know, just the other day, you know, uh, I get home from Lyft. I have a meeting with the last soul crew at 8:30 and I tell Lucy, hey, got a half hour call. Afterwards, I'm going to go to the grocery store because we're all out of food.

• 2:04:30Speaker 01

  And, uh, I'm on that call for an hour and a half. And after the call, she's like,

• 2:04:37Speaker 01

  what the hell, man? You, you said you were, this was a half hour call, then you were going to the grocery store. And she said, which hurt to hear, but I needed to hear it was, I just want you to do what you say you're gonna do. Not for the runners, not for what you do in running, but right here in this home.

• 2:05:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:01Speaker 01

  And so I'm constantly trying to work on that. That's the standard I want to live by, but I'm not perfect in it and I fall short of it. And so I try and meet people where they're at as best as I possibly can and understand that not everybody's going to live in the way that I live. And that starts with me.

• 2:05:21Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm. Yeah. That's a good realization. My advice would be like, I'm gonna take this call. I don't know how long it's gonna be.

• 2:05:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:33Speaker 01

  Don't bother me.

• 2:05:34Cameron Hanes?

  You boxed yourself in with the 30 minutes. And that was unnecessary.

• 2:05:38Speaker 01

  I.

• 2:05:40Cameron Hanes?

  So.

• 2:05:40Speaker 01

  We'll note that.

• 2:05:42Cameron Hanes?

  Anything else, James?

• 2:05:43Speaker 03

  Yeah. Um.

• 2:05:47Speaker 03

  You guys talked about obviously the attention you're getting and the deserved sponsors and everything like that, but I know for me, there's a part of me that will miss the Mark Dowdle videos of you washing windows.

• 2:06:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:01Speaker 03

  While talking about wisdom. Is there a part of you that will miss a little bit of that as well? Or not really?

• 2:06:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 2:06:10Speaker 01

  Because I spent seven years trying to accomplish this thing. And now that I have it, that hunger of like, man, I'm, I'm, I made negative $72 this month. And there's a, there's a fear in that. But there's also like, an incredible activation, energy of hunger that comes along with that. And so that's no longer there. And so I have to find a different way to get the most out of myself. And navigating that has been challenging at times. But also there's a, there's an everyday madness that is no longer a part of me, because I'm doing

• 2:06:55Speaker 01

  this professionally. And I get paid now to run, lift, recover, sleep eight hours, do everything that I need to do to be at my best come race day. And I know that 99% of the people that follow me don't have that opportunity.

• 2:07:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:07:13Speaker 01

  They're going to work. They're, they have two kids at home. They're just trying to fit in, running or exercise in the ways that they can. And so there's a, there's a part of me that I have to speak differently to that person if I'm going to meet them where they're at.

• 2:07:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that makes sense. Is, is there any fear of losing that hunger? Like, you on the come up, just as they say, it's harder, it's harder to stay at the top than the climb.

• 2:07:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:44Cameron Hanes?

  The climb, you want to prove everybody wrong. You're going to show how bad you want it. You're going to outwork everybody. And then you make it. Now you're making money. Is it, are you, you still got the same hunger?

• 2:07:59Speaker 01

  I made it in running when I made the decision that making it materially in running was no longer the thing that would give me joy.

• 2:08:10Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 2:08:11Speaker 01

  And so I made it before all of the success. Yes, there was a, an obligation to be a provider, because the Bible says, the man that can't provide for his family is worse than a non believer.

• 2:08:27Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 2:08:27Speaker 01

  That's a harsh saying.

• 2:08:29Cameron Hanes?

  That's minus $72, it addresses that right there.

• 2:08:33Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:08:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So I get that is, that's, and that's what, that's what being a man is.

• 2:08:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:40Cameron Hanes?

  People rely on you. So I get it. And so you've, you've addressed that. That must feel good.

• 2:08:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, but there's a, there's a different, like providing comes in all forms. It's like providing.

• 2:08:50Cameron Hanes?

  Emotional, emotionally?

• 2:08:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm, I'm experiencing my wife being pregnant for the first time.

• 2:08:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:56Speaker 01

  I don't know what the hell I'm doing.

• 2:08:57Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:08:57Speaker 01

  So there's a different level of providing. There's providing of, hey, you said you were going to be on a call for a half hour.

• 2:09:02Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 2:09:03Speaker 01

  You, you didn't provide in that moment.

• 2:09:05Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 2:09:06Speaker 01

  What you said you were going to do.

• 2:09:07Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:09:08Speaker 01

  So there's, it shifts, it shifts from a financial providing, but to a different side of what it means to be a man.

• 2:09:16Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 2:09:17Speaker 01

  That's not toxic.

• 2:09:23Cameron Hanes?

  Well, we're both toxic, which is why we're not welcome in ultra. Did you have any more?

• 2:09:28Speaker 03

  I got one more.

• 2:09:29Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 2:09:30Speaker 03

  Um, obviously Cam has talked about a lot, you know, pushing his kids and making them do things that they didn't want to do. And even on Spencer's today, you know, you were talking about making Truett and Tanner do things. Now that you are looking forward to being a father, what are some lessons that maybe you've learned in those darkest moments that you'd love to instill in your child?

• 2:10:02Speaker 01

  Understanding why you want to do something, and really thinking about that.

• 2:10:13Speaker 01

  And understanding what will actually get you through the dark times. Because for me, what's gotten me through the dark times is my faith. What's gotten me through the dark times is the love and commitment that Lucy and I have together. It is, you know, I'm, I'm reading the name of Roy right there. And my friend Kellen, that, that is my Roy. A guy that I know I can rely on and count on in any given situation. That to me is more important than anything else. So find that.

• 2:10:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:50Speaker 01

  And wherever you can. But the things that the world wants you to care about

• 2:10:58Speaker 01

  aren't the things that you are going to find fulfillment in. So understand what you're chasing. And when what you're chasing becomes something that you recognize won't fulfill you, never be afraid to move in a different direction.

• 2:11:14Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm. That's good advice. That's a good question, James. Yeah, I mean, Mark, I've, I've been impressed with you for a long time, just like, your intellect, but also just

• 2:11:31Cameron Hanes?

  how wise you are for, you know, 29 years old. I've said on here, maybe I joked like you were 12 years old, but I feel like I can still learn from you. And I'm just so impressed. And I'm, I'm very, I'm thankful for this time that we spent today and to share this with you and to have the conversations we did to, to run miles and shoot bows. And it just means a lot. And I just want to tell you, yeah, how impressed and how much I appreciate you and your voice out there in this world. Thank you.

• 2:12:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:02Cameron Hanes?

  It's been, it's been amazing. And also, I'm really pumped that you have your own bow. So.

• 2:12:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, this thing's amazing.

• 2:12:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And you shot so well today. So yeah, we're going to send this to you. And yeah, I, this is, this is my thing. Archery is my thing, obviously. You know, you're down there with me and Wayne and been bow hunting for basically our entire lives. And you had the herd bull teach you how to, to shoot a bow. And, and those moments are just like, this is what I, I love stuff like this. So you did so well today. And it was so fun. And yeah, I just want to say thank you.

• 2:12:41Speaker 01

  Thank you. And I do want to give you your flowers as well, because I know that there's been a lot of heat on you as well. But what you do matters, and how you speak matters. And there are people that are listening like myself, who feel encouraged by you and the voice that you give, and the platform you give athletes like myself is greater than I think anybody else is doing it. So thank you for what you're doing for this sport. But thank you for what you're doing to everyday people, to give them the hope

• 2:13:26Speaker 01

  and the courage to keep going through their dark times.

• 2:13:30Cameron Hanes?

  Of course, I think we're here to lift each other up. And if I'm not doing that, then I feel like I'm failing. So thank you for the kind words. And, and I do remember now, when all the shit was coming out, people wanting to cancel me and things like that. You did put out a video of support.

• 2:13:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:50Cameron Hanes?

  And, yeah, I'm, I mean, I don't forget stuff like that. And, yeah. So I think we should celebrate by having a big old steak.

• 2:13:59Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 2:14:00Cameron Hanes?

  About that. Thank you.

• 2:14:01Speaker 01

  Let's do it.