Denise Huskins: My Kidnapping Story (FBF)

Join Alex in the studio for a powerful interview with kidnapping and assault survivor Denise Huskins. In 2015, Denise was taken from her boyfriend’s house in the middle of the night. She was held for days, drugged, and assaulted before finally being released by her captors. But when Denise told the police what had happened to her, nobody believed her. In fact, they attacked her. They called her a liar, hoaxster, fraud, and the real life “Gone Girl.” They claimed she’d made it all up for fame and attention. Today, Denise is here to tell her incredible story of overcoming trauma, staying calm in the midst of chaos, and fighting for the truth. This is an important conversation about what it takes for women to be believed, the problem with victim blaming, and how Denise was finally able to reclaim her name and her life.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Cooper?

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• 1:12Speaker 01

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• 1:42Alex Cooper?

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Uber. Uber just introduced a new feature called Women Preferences, which lets women riders request a woman driver directly in the app. It's honestly an amazing feature that gives women more control over their rides. Sometimes we all just want a ride that feels a little more comfortable and chill. So if you haven't used it yet, Uber's new Women Preferences feature is available now in the Uber app. Learn more on the Uber app. Daddy gang, picture this. It's a typical day for you. You just got off of work, you go pick up a pizza, you head over to your boyfriend's house for dinner, and you guys are just hanging out and you eventually start having one of those emotionally deep conversations

• 2:27Alex Cooper?

  that goes on for hours about just the status of your relationship. You've been dating for seven months. You're just trying to figure out, are we doing this or we not? Eventually, you're exhausted, you decide you're staying together, you're happy, you're in love, you go to bed. And then imagine at 3:00 AM, you're woken up and blinded by a bright white light, laser beams across your body, and you hear a taser go off somewhere in the room. A voice you don't recognize tells your boyfriend to lay on his stomach and commands you to tie him up. You just woke up, you're confused, you're disoriented,

• 3:10Alex Cooper?

  you have absolutely no idea what the fuck is going on, who are these people, or what are they here and what do they want? And the next thing you know, you have blacked out swim goggles put over your eyes so you can't see anything, and headphones are placed over your ears. You hear wind chimes and a strange recorded voice telling you, someone is going to take your vitals and give you a sedative to calm you down. Nothing is making sense or adding up. You're struggling to process what is happening. You're taken out

• 3:48Alex Cooper?

  of the room with the man, and suddenly, this guy says to you, this wasn't meant for you, but loads you into the truck of his car and you are taken away. And you fall asleep from the sedative and you wake up in a cabin. Daddy gang, this is a true story. This is Denise Huskins' story. And this is a story of a woman who was kidnapped, raped, survived, and then came out to realize that the world thought she had completely put on an entire hoax, that she made all of this up and did not believe her story. I'm so excited to sit down with her today and talk to her about her experience. If any of these subject matters could be sensitive to you or triggers,

• 4:33Alex Cooper?

  please, maybe this is one you tune out. And I'll see you next week. For those of you who are going to stick around and listen, here is Denise Huskins.

• 4:45Speaker 02

  What is up, daddy gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy.

• 4:54Alex Cooper?

  Denise Huskins, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

• 4:56Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 4:58Alex Cooper?

  How are you doing today?

• 5:00Speaker 03

  Oh, God. Um, every day is a mixed bag of emotions. So like, I'm good, you know, like, all in all, I'm good. But then there's just, still, uh, just, my body is just like processing a lot of stress and stuff from the past. So like, it's, it's really nice to be able to speak and share about what happened and, and how we've gotten through it. But it also just brings up a lot of deep-seated pain, so.

• 5:34Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, yeah. For context to everyone watching or listening, the story of your kidnapping was told in a Netflix documentary recently, American Nightmare, which was at the top of the charts. It had like 21 million plus streams. As interesting as it is for people to consume that type of content, it's your life and everyone was watching it. Like, how did you feel when you saw the world watching and experiencing your story for the first time?

• 6:08Speaker 03

  It was certainly surreal, but the Netflix experience, you know, that like, it drops in 190 countries and there's, you know, millions and millions of, all of a sudden. So now, it's just like, um, it's, I mean, it's overwhelming and incredibly positive.

• 6:24Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 6:26Speaker 03

  People from all over the world sharing their stories with me. I mean, calling me brave and a badass and all these wonderful compliments. But at the same time, I'm like, you know, at home on the couch curled in a ball, my stomach's sick, like, a lot of that, that fear, that terror. You know, I mean, I spent two days in captivity believing I would be killed, in complete shock that I'm released. So yeah, it just, the exposure, the public exposure is so intertwined with the thought of being killed that it's like really hard for my body to differentiate the two. It's like, okay, I know I'm safe,

• 7:12Speaker 03

  I know that. And like, most of, most of the attention's very positive right now, so it's very different. But it's still, like, my body doesn't know the difference.

• 7:23Alex Cooper?

  I do kinda want to go back to the beginning because I'm sure people are sitting here and we're talking about a Netflix doc and there's this thing that happened, like, you're a very normal person. Tell me about life before all this, like, who you were, your job, your upbringing, just like, kinda paint the picture.

• 7:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, so in 2015, I was 29 years old. I, yeah, I grew up in Southern California. I went to undergrad with the goal to become a physical therapist. And I went to get my doctorate in Brooklyn, New York, which was a really cool experience to be able to get something completely different than Southern California, the energy, the culture, the people. I had a lot of self-learning, self-discovery at that time. And, um, yeah, I started working for a couple of years and I went to Vallejo, California for a physical therapy residency

• 8:19Speaker 03

  to specialize in working with people who've had severe neurological disorders or traumatic brain injury, spinal cord injury, stroke. I mean, these people and their families were faced with an unexpected tragic event and are literally like building, trying to rebuild their lives. And so, that's what I was doing at the time. I was working with people who were going through their own trauma and trying to help them and guide them. And that's where I met Aaron, who's now my husband.

• 8:52Alex Cooper?

  Seven months before your kidnapping, you guys meet. Can you describe like, how you met and go a little bit more into like, the dynamic of that relationship?

• 9:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, so we met at work. He's a physical therapist. He's working at the hospital. We would see each other out in like group settings, you know, with the other PTs and we always just gravitated towards one another and we were dating for about seven months or so. And it was kind of an on again, off again thing because he had just been going through a really devastating breakup of his own with someone he was engaged to, who we thought he was gonna spend his life with and she had cheated on him and so that like his whole view of his life and his future just crumbled. So I could really empathize with what he was going through. But at the same time,

• 9:46Speaker 03

  after a few months of inconsistency, it was kind of, we were at like a crossroads in a relationship. So it's like I said, like he was going through a difficult time and it was, you know, if you look at it from the outside, it's like, oh, don't go there. It's just too messy. But but at the same time, like you don't come across that that often.

• 10:07Alex Cooper?

  So the night that you were taken, you and Aaron had gotten into kind of like an argument disagreement fight. What was it about? Can you just kind of like give context?

• 10:19Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, so about a month before that, I had found text messages on his phone of him communicating with his ex. And it, at that point, it was disrespectful to me and he wasn't being honest to me about it. And so I kind of put my foot down. I was like, okay, enough's enough. Like I, either you go, if you, that's what you want to do, go back to her, do that, or let me go. Like, just give me enough respect to let me go. And he had talked about going to therapy but hadn't done it yet. So at that point, he really, I think it was like more of putting a mirror up to his face and going, okay, I, like, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? This isn't helping me. It's not healthy for me. So he started going to therapy and he, and he started

• 11:05Speaker 03

  trying to show me that it was me that he wanted to be with and that he wanted to try to make this work. So it was like a lot of back and forth. And I wasn't gonna go over to his house that night. I had told him like, like, if you want to start over, we can start fresh. She can take me out on a date. Like, I don't want to go back there because they had lived together in that house too. So it was like, you know, I don't, I don't, I just, yeah, I need you to like court me again. But then, you know, he was like, I think it'll be a serious conversation. We should, you know, not be in public, like talking about it. And so we it's like, okay, fine, I'll come over. I brought a pizza and

• 11:50Speaker 03

  nothing about that night was heated or confrontational at all. It was more emotional, you know, it was like, okay, am I willing to forgive him? Can I believe that he wants to move forward? Can he show me that? And so, yeah, we talked for hours and, and we got to that place, you know, it was emotional, but it was sweet and we, we decided, okay, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna try this out and give it a shot and

• 12:18Alex Cooper?

  When you talk about that night,

• 12:21Alex Cooper?

  what does it make you feel? Because you're talking about like, oh, my gosh, I, I went through this with this guy and we finally kind of had a really good conversation. I feel like everyone listening can relate when it's finally like, okay, we need to get to the bottom of it. Are we doing this thing? Are we not? If not, no hard feelings. I'm gonna go on with my life, but like, let's hash it out. Let's figure it out. And you did. When you look back knowing later that night when you went to bed, your whole life was gonna change. Like, how do you feel about that night when you even talk about it?

• 12:49Speaker 03

  You know, I've been asked that. It's like, would you take it all back? Like, if you, would you not go over there? Would you not forgive him? Would you, you know, if that meant that none of this would have happened, but in the end, I'm gonna get emotional. It would mean that I wouldn't have him in my life and he is my person, you know, like I knew that as soon as I met him and there's just like, I didn't really believe and I was giving up on the idea of like your, your partner, your other half, like a soulmate, you know, I was 29 and I'm like, this shit's not real. Like, it's, it's just,

• 13:27Speaker 03

  and I was kind of getting like solidified and that, like, okay, I'm just gonna be independent and focus on my career and like, I'm, I'm good. Like, I don't need that shit. And yeah, meeting him, I was like, oh, wait, maybe,

• 13:42Speaker 03

  maybe there's not all douchebags out there. Maybe like some genuine, like, you know, focused and, and he had like, he had a good family and he was really sweet about his family and he shared similar values and interests and like, we just would hang out for hours and talk and, and still like 10 years later, we just hang out and talk to each other. It's like, what do you talk about? I think that was something the police were like, what do you, like, what do you mean? No, you were fighting. And he's like, no, we weren't fighting. We were just, we, we were talking, we were listening to each other. We were hearing each other and

• 14:19Speaker 03

  so, I mean, I think it's sad that some people may not understand that. But I feel lucky that I've, I've gotten that from him.

• 14:28Alex Cooper?

  When you went to bed that night, were you like, okay, we're gonna try to make this work? Like, were you in good spirits going to bed, would you say?

• 14:37Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. I mean, we were like just wrapped up in each other and

• 14:43Speaker 03

  yeah, going to bed, just thinking, okay, like, you know, I mean, we were emotionally exhausted, but like, okay, like this is, this feels like a fresh start. Like that ghost of the relationship of the past is gone. It's lifted. It's free. Okay, like, we can start to move forward.

• 14:58Alex Cooper?

  Can you take me to the moment where you knew, wait, someone's in my house and I'm in danger? And like, were you just like dead asleep, woken up in this moment?

• 15:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I was dead, I was dead asleep. I I thought I was dreaming, so I could hear a strange man's voice. And it's like my subconscious was conflicted, like, it was almost like it was saying, don't wake up, don't wake up. And but then, I mean, it just, it was relentless and I just suddenly, like, my eyes shot open and my back was turned to where the voice was coming from, but I saw a flashing white light on the wall and like three red laser pointers crossing the walls and then they disappear over our bodies. And so instantly I knew, like, holy fuck, there's people here. We're surrounded.

• 15:52Speaker 03

  They have guns. Like, this is real. I mean, I

• 15:59Speaker 03

  the fear, I mean, I, I don't even know if I could ever like accurately describe how horrifying that is. And, and instantly knowing like there's people here, they've got things set up, like they're not just coming in to steal a laptop or something like this is like, what, what is this? Why? Yeah.

• 16:23Alex Cooper?

  Did you like say anything to Aaron or was this just too crazy that you both were just like stunned, shocked, didn't say anything?

• 16:30Speaker 03

  I think initially we're both just in shock, like frozen. Trying to register, you know, you're pulled from like a deep sleep to then that is just as like your body has, has to have time to adjust and and then when you do adjust and you're realizing what it is,

• 16:51Speaker 03

  especially with like guns facing you. I mean, what do you do? Scream? What, like, you know, you don't know what these people are here for, what they're capable of.

• 17:02Speaker 03

  So we just listened and then the voice just kept talking. Also, so it wasn't really like we had time to, to do anything else. He just then started saying like, he was having me tie Aaron up and he was kind of put zip ties at the end of the bed and he backed away and then he was telling me how to tie up Aaron's hands and feet together and

• 17:27Speaker 03

  yeah, the whole time I'm just like shaking, going like, thinking like, am I gonna do this right? Am I, you know, I'm just like in my head about it. Like, I, I hope I don't fuck this up. I hope that they don't, I, you know, and, and and as I'm like freaking out internally, the voice keeps talking, saying like, you're doing a good job. You are staying calm. It was very like distinct, almost robotic. It was just, so like, there were so many little pieces of it that was just so hard to even process because it isn't what you would normally think, right? Like you watch true crime or horror movies and you see like this like crazy

• 18:05Speaker 03

  passionate violence and realizing that criminals can be patient and in control. And planned out was like even more horrifying to process.

• 18:20Alex Cooper?

  Right. Because I get what you're saying. Like you would probably anticipate if someone was gonna play it out in their mind, it would be like screaming and yelling and like just yelling at you to do things. And the fact that you're like, there was like this calmness about the situation. And yet it's so hectic, but like, how is this person showing patience in the wake of like, you don't know at this point what they're gonna do. When did you realize like, oh, they're here to take me? Because I'm assuming like when you're tying Aaron up, did you think like they're gonna take him?

• 18:51Speaker 03

  No, I thought,

• 18:55Speaker 03

  well.

• 18:57Speaker 03

  How, what, what did I not think? You know, I thought, I mean, he woke us up saying, this is a robbery. We are not here to hurt you. And repeated that over and over. Stay calm. This is a robbery. And the fact that there wasn't immediate violence, I'm thinking and hoping. And also just to keep myself calm, like, okay, maybe this is just a robbery. So they're planning on clearing out Aaron's belongings and they're gonna have us tied up and they, they put headphones over our ears and played pre-recorded messages of instructions. And forced us to take sedatives. And even

• 19:39Speaker 03

  in that moment, like I hear the other people downstairs, I hear drawers opening, like there's a drill going. So even in that moment, I'm thinking, okay, maybe this is just a robbery and they're just making sure they're gonna tie us up and blindfold us and drug us so we pass out and they have enough time to get a clean getaway and we'll come to the next morning and then it's all over. But okay, fine, whatever, like, we'll be safe.

• 20:08Speaker 03

  But you know, you're still like in the back of your mind going like, you know, are they gonna torture us? Are they gonna rape me? Are they gonna rape him and me? Are they gonna make us what? Like, you know, there's those stories of, of serial rapists doing, you know, so it's just, but you have to like also try to figure out how to stay calm and present because if, at least for myself in those moments, I'm thinking if I freak out, like, and I lose my sanity, then that's gonna make it riskier for me because I'm not clear-headed and I'm not, you know, like I might not pick up on some information that could get me out of this alive. So like, I just need to,

• 20:49Speaker 03

  I just, yeah, I just need to calm myself down, stay focused, pay attention, listen and, and see.

• 20:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:02Speaker 03

  But the night progressively got worse and they separated me from Aaron and then brought me downstairs and

• 21:16Speaker 03

  and then he came in because there was just one man who was speaking and it's the same man who held me captive.

• 21:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, I came in and he said,

• 21:28Speaker 03

  this wasn't meant for you. This was meant for, and he named Aaron's ex by her first and last name. And he said, we need to figure out what we're gonna do. And I mean, I'm just sitting there going like, what, like, how, like,

• 21:43Speaker 03

  how is this meant for anybody? And what the fuck is this?

• 21:52Speaker 03

  And then he comes back in and he says, you know, we're gonna take you for forty-eight hours. We're gonna put you in the trunk of Aaron's car, put you into a trunk of another car and Aaron's gonna have to complete some tasks for you to be released.

• 22:08Alex Cooper?

  Were you just silent in that moment? Like, did you say anything or you're just in shock?

• 22:12Speaker 03

  Uh, just in shock. I think I said, okay, at some point.

• 22:19Speaker 03

  At that point, the sedatives had already been kicking in.

• 22:23Speaker 03

  I didn't know what was happening upstairs with Aaron, but I was hopeful that nothing was happening because I didn't hear any struggle or yelling or anything like that. And I mean, that's really how they could be successful, right? Like you use the person against the other, you know, if you mess up, if you do anything, we are going to hurt your partner, the person you love. So I think things would perhaps be a little different at what, if it was just me, you know, like if it's like, I can risk getting hurt if it's my life I'm risking, but if I might be hurting someone else, then that changes everything.

• 23:05Alex Cooper?

  Like, it's so interesting again, because like, we never know what we're gonna do in these situations until you're in it. And when you talk about it Denise of like, your body just like knows what to do in these situations, like you having the wherewithal to be like, stay so calm. I cannot lose my mind, even though I wanna scream, I wanna cry, I wanna do all the things, I wanna shut down. I have to really be focused and listen. I remember you talking about the car ride and even though you were on these sedatives, you were kind of like trying as hard as you could to stay awake, right? And like just track like, okay, we turned out of the neighborhood, like where are we going? Like, how long do you think that lasted in the trunk when they put you in there that you were trying to just get a gauge of where you were going?

• 23:50Speaker 03

  Well, in the first car,

• 23:54Speaker 03

  I, it was hard to breathe. So as much as I was trying to pay attention, I was really just trying to not panic because I was, I, I felt like I was starting to lose it. And I knew it wasn't gonna help me to hyperventilate. And so that's where I was just like, okay, just focus on this. And at one point he stopped and like grabbed my arm. And he's like, do not scream, do not yell. And I hadn't said anything. So it was just like confusing and threatening and

• 24:21Speaker 03

  and then he stops somewhere and puts me in the trunk of another car and it's smaller, but I could breathe easier. Um, and starts going and I could tell we get on a freeway and yeah, I'm thinking like, can I like kick out a taillight, like some other shit you see in movies. It's like, I don't know what kind of car I'm in. I don't know where the taillight is, like, I'm crammed, like, you know, what, like, what do I do? And I think as I was just kind of like cycling through all of that, eventually I passed out from the sedatives.

• 24:53Alex Cooper?

  And at this point, when you wake up and you're being brought to this cabin, like, do you have any concept if you're even still in California? Like, do you know where you are?

• 25:03Speaker 03

  No, I don't know where I am.

• 25:07Speaker 03

  But I knew that it had been several hours. My, my, the whole side of my body was going numb.

• 25:18Speaker 03

  And when he opened the trunk, the way that the light was, I could tell it was probably like later morning.

• 25:27Speaker 03

  And he was like struggling to get me out of the trunk. And I knew we weren't like under a garage, like, because I could see the light, but then he like drops me and then fumbles with me and drags me into darkness. And I'm thinking like, where the fuck can we be where no one is seeing this right now? And I don't hear cars, I don't hear, you know, so I'm thinking we're probably in either the woods or like a big, more like vacant lot of land or something. So I knew we were remote. I could tell it was a like single unit home, um, because there was no noises or plumbing or whatever from anyone else. So.

• 26:10Alex Cooper?

  First of all, I can't even imagine how terrifying, like, when you realize you're basically in the middle of nowhere potentially. And that thought realizing like, wait, no one can see me. No one can hear me. In that moment, like, what were you thinking?

• 26:32Speaker 03

  I guess I was just

• 26:35Speaker 03

  constantly thinking of all just the horrific things that could happen, like the possible torture, like if,

• 26:47Speaker 03

  like, is this what these people do? Like, is this what they, they're really in it for? You know, because at the time too, I'm like, Aaron, like, he has some money, but he doesn't have a lot of money. So like, we don't have family members who are public figures or like political or, or anything, like, we're just really just ordinary people, like, like I had some money in my mutual funds, but again, it's like nothing substantial. So it really, yeah, I was

• 27:27Speaker 03

  yeah, it's hard to really think about because

• 27:32Speaker 03

  you, yeah, you envision just all the possible ways you could be tortured and killed and like,

• 27:41Speaker 03

  am I gonna bleed out slowly? Am I gonna be raped by how many of them? How like,

• 27:50Speaker 03

  how am I going to be able to face and tolerate any of that?

• 27:58Speaker 03

  But I think in that moment too, knowing that or thinking like, maybe this is why they do this. I told myself like, I'm like, they've clearly systematically laid it out to where I have no defense possible to me. I'm isolated, bound, I have sedatives, blindfolded, like,

• 28:19Speaker 03

  no matter what, even with all of that, I'm still a female, like I'm a woman to a man, like I can't outrun a man, I cannot fight a man, like, I, you know.

• 28:32Speaker 03

  So I told myself like, the only thing I can control is how I react and respond. So if like, this is what gets them off, if this is what motivates them to like, you know, submit a cowering, screaming woman, then I'm not gonna give that to them. I'm not gonna, I'm, I'm not gonna do that. And if it is

• 28:52Speaker 03

  my last moment alive, I'm not gonna go out like screaming and crying in horror. Like I'm going to stay calm and focused and be proud of the life I've lived. Like, I'm not gonna give them that. They don't get that. They don't get that last moment of my life.

• 29:16Speaker 03

  So in a lot of ways throughout it, like there's, you know, you have to almost detach because you can't really be present in like the horror of the situation and you have to think of all the possibilities that anything can go wrong. So it's like, if I scream, what's the possibility that they're gonna fight back? Like the more time I spent with him too, like next to him, feeling his energy, like, yes, he was polite throughout, like it was a weird, it was a deliberate, like procedural politeness. But like, I could tell, like bubbling under the surface was this level of aggression, like, like almost like he wanted me to fight back, you know, to, so he could then

• 29:59Speaker 03

  yeah, assert his dominance. And so I just felt like I was, you know, I was just handling the whole situation and him with care and

• 30:12Speaker 03

  yeah, he would talk to me a lot in captivity and tell me that he was in the military and had PTSD and couldn't live a normal life. So that's why he's doing something like this. And so I just felt like, okay, like I felt like

• 30:28Speaker 03

  maybe there's something in his past that's like justifying

• 30:33Speaker 03

  him to, to do this. And so I don't wanna alienate him. I don't want to create a situation where it's like you're a crazy monster, you're a bad guy. Like I just would turn and listen and try to connect with him and talked about therapy. I talked about a childhood trauma.

• 30:56Speaker 03

  I just thought really like my only defense is to show him the human being in front of him and hope maybe

• 31:08Speaker 03

  he would decide not to kill me.

• 31:09Alex Cooper?

  I can't imagine the mindfuck of you being like, I hate this person, like, get me the fuck out of here. But then like, knowing you have to use your

• 31:22Alex Cooper?

  your best possible social skills in that moment, like you're basically, you never really, really get to see him, right? You're mostly blindfolded. So you're like, you're saying you're literally reading his like energy of like his breaths and the way like his tone and how he's speaking, like you're having to just hear these like sensory moments and having to like gauge how to respond. How did that mentally affect you being like, I have to be kind almost to my captor? Like, did it ever have you questioning? Like, is he not that bad of a guy?

• 31:59Speaker 03

  Uh, yeah. And that was part of it. Like the psychological manipulation and that, like, I could tell that that was part of it. You know, it was so deliberate. So I just kind of fed into it. And also too, it's like he would reward me for good behavior. So like after he rapes me the first time, I was allowed when I was by myself to take the blindfold off and he gave me like toiletries to shower with and food and

• 32:36Speaker 03

  you know, so it's like, I could see all of this.

• 32:40Speaker 03

  It was a way to try to condition me. And at the same time, like I had to take gratitude and the fact that I wasn't being tortured. And he kept saying like, oh, don't worry, we're gonna release you. And I'm like, you're gonna kill me. And he's like, no, we're gonna release you. And it's like, how do I trust that? But I had to like connect and have him trust me. Because if he gave me a little bit of freedom, a little bit of reward, and I immediately tried to run or scream or fight, then that would show him that he can't. And then maybe that would mean he wouldn't trust that he could release me. So like

• 33:22Speaker 03

  part of it was like knowing what the conditioning was. And then also just like at a certain point, you know, it's like, I have to believe that he's not all bad. Like I have to believe that he's a human being with feelings and that there's some truth to when he says like, you don't deserve this and I don't wanna dehumanize you. And, you know, and so it's like,

• 33:47Speaker 03

  I wanna believe that because I wanna believe that I'm gonna get out of it alive.

• 33:58Alex Cooper?

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Airbnb. As you guys know, I have basically been working double time throughout this pregnancy to bank episodes for the month that I will be on maternity leave. And a few weeks ago, it all just kind of hit me. I was like, wait, wait, wait, where did summer go? And I was talking about this with Matt and he ended up surprising me with a little staycation. He booked this beautiful home on Airbnb in Malibu so that we could pretend like it was summer while it's still warm here in LA. The weather was perfect. The house was right on the beach, which was so relaxing and amazing. It also had just such a gorgeous kitchen. We stayed in, we cooked dinner together.

• 34:40Alex Cooper?

  And, you know, Daddy Gang, my cooking skills, they have, they have gotten better. They've gotten a little bit better through pregnancy. But it was really just so nice to unplug and spend that time together before the baby comes and we move into this completely new chapter of our life. So whether you're planning a cozy weekend away, or you're just looking for an excuse to unplug for a few days, October is the perfect time to get out of town. Booking a home on Airbnb makes the trip feel even more special because everyone has room to actually spend time together, whether you're coming back after a long day out, or you're also just cooking dinner. Airbnb makes settling in even easier because you can order groceries for your trip and have all the snacks and essentials delivered

• 35:24Alex Cooper?

  after you arrive. My favorite fall trips always have one thing in common, an amazing place to say, that's why I always look at Airbnb first. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Shopify. Daddy gang, you know, I'm a little skeptical of the internet at times, aren't we all? But one thing I absolutely love is how much easier it has made starting a business. No matter what stage you're at, Shopify is the best place to start and grow a business. With Shopify, you get to own your storefront while still being discovered everywhere from Google to YouTube to the shop app. They also let you sell across TikTok, Instagram, Pinterest,

• 36:06Alex Cooper?

  even directly inside AI chats. So your customers can shop wherever they already are and your products can appear directly alongside content. So as someone is scrolling, they just become part of their feed. Shopify truly makes it so much easier for customers to discover and buy products wherever they're browsing. And this has been such a game changer for Unwell. I love being able to sell merch directly on all the Call Her Daddy channels. So everything is in one place for the daddy gang. So, ready to add entrepreneur to your list of accomplishments? Head to Shopify.com/daddy. That's Shopify.com/daddy. First of all, I'm so sorry. Like I,

• 36:49Alex Cooper?

  I genuinely cannot fathom what you went through and it's just incredible that you are able to tell your story today and sitting here and I commend you for even being able to do things like this right now and talk through this. And I can imagine it's really fucking hard when you're going through this like mental warfare of like appease, appease, appease. And then he's telling you like, I'm not gonna kill you, I'm not gonna kill you, like

• 37:15Alex Cooper?

  before the assault, did he like warn you?

• 37:18Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, just being a woman in a situation like that, of course, your first thought is like, I'm gonna be raped. Like it's like, even if that wasn't the intention. Cause he said that, you know, this is where a, a black market startup company were hired to fulfill personal and financial debts and we were hired to target Aaron and, and he kept naming Aaron's ex and

• 37:50Speaker 03

  and everything was about protocol. Like I have to drug you. Uh, I have to, you know, I have to do this and

• 37:59Speaker 03

  you know, so again, there's like that bit of hope, maybe that's not what this is about. But it's like, well, but here you have a woman, a body

• 38:11Speaker 03

  at your disposal, like you, you, you are in complete control over it. So like, anyone who inherently who decides that a kidnapping for ransom's a good idea, like a good business model, you know, there's

• 38:26Speaker 03

  something really dark there. And so it's like, what's, what's gonna you know, stop them from, from doing that? And yeah, like later, that first day, he came in to say, because it wasn't meant for me, they didn't have any information on me. So they were gonna record him having sex with me and

• 38:51Speaker 03

  if they thought I was ever gonna go speak to the police, they would release it on the internet.

• 38:58Alex Cooper?

  How did that make you feel? Like think, like, were you even at that point, were you even scared? Like, were you like in your mind, like, fuck it, release it on the internet or?

• 39:07Speaker 03

  At that point, I just was like, of course this is happening. I mean, you know, it, it had been hours of wondering like, if that was gonna happen. So I like,

• 39:19Speaker 03

  as much as I'm feeling like the soul sucked out of me, I'm also like, of course, of course, this is gonna happen. And

• 39:29Speaker 03

  you know, at that point too, it's like, I mean, what, what do I say? Like what, like you put me in the trunk of a car, like

• 39:38Speaker 03

  there's nothing I can say that's gonna stop this. And so just, okay, like I, and I just laid there and

• 39:49Speaker 03

  I remember thinking, cause he had said like, it's supposed to look consensual or

• 39:57Speaker 03

  yeah, and I was just like, this, how, there's no fucking way this looks consensual.

• 40:03Speaker 03

  And I would worried that

• 40:06Speaker 03

  because of that, knowing like, I mean, I, I, to get through it and live through it and survive it, I just, I could feel myself fully detached, like I was floating overhead, watching all this happen. And I just had, I just had to detach.

• 40:26Speaker 03

  But yeah, I was like, this, this, this is gonna happen again. Like I, I know it, it's gonna happen again. And and then the next day he said, you know, the footage wasn't good enough. And this time you have to

• 40:41Speaker 03

  You have to seem like you like it. So we have to kiss and it has to look like we

• 40:49Speaker 03

  we're like in a relationship and.

• 40:53Alex Cooper?

  Now, in hindsight, when you look back on that, like the protocol and like, we need to film this for that like. Do you believe like it was all bullshit? It was all just in this person's imagination to like make you feel a certain way? Or do you actually believe there was certain things, protocol wise, that he was actually following?

• 41:13Speaker 03

  Well, I I know that there was more than one person involved because of what we saw and heard. And the night of the home invasion and also in captivity, like a different car pulled up and people came out and came inside and they were talking and then left.

• 41:36Speaker 03

  As far as like, I believe that they set up these things as protocol to

• 41:47Speaker 03

  make them believe that they weren't as bad as they are. You know, it's like, it was that kind of this military sense of like, I have to do this and then I have to do this and I have to do this. I'm gonna set up this whole situation. It's like, but these are all rules that you created. You know, and, and so this is all of your doing. And even when I would say like, you're gonna kill me, I know you're gonna kill me. And he's like, no, even if, if that's decided by the other people, like where I'm not, I'm not gonna let that happen. I have an escape plan for my family. And it's like, so you're still here torturing me for two days and raping me, but you have an escape plan? Like you don't have, like, you have to go through with this, like you, but you, I mean, at least you have like some measure

• 42:31Speaker 03

  of what you won't do. But it's, you know, I, I just, I mean, yeah, I think all of it was

• 42:40Speaker 03

  ways to make them feel better about attacking someone. Like, I don't, you know, I have to do this. No, you don't. You don't have to fucking do anything.

• 42:50Alex Cooper?

  What was your lowest moment in the cabin?

• 42:54Speaker 03

  The second rape.

• 42:57Speaker 03

  Cause it was very much like a

• 43:04Speaker 03

  kind of like go fuck yourself and like, fine, you want me to perform, I'll fucking perform.

• 43:11Speaker 03

  And like, you're not gonna break me.

• 43:17Speaker 03

  And the only way I was able to get through it was to like, just picture that it was Aaron that I was with and that like, just haunted me and

• 43:31Speaker 03

  like I had to call upon something to like, get me through it.

• 43:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, at that point, I was already quite low and and then he came in at one point to show me an article

• 43:52Speaker 03

  with my dad speaking.

• 44:00Speaker 03

  And I like read the words of my dad's like telling me to be strong.

• 44:06Speaker 03

  That the family was there. Like I couldn't keep reading the sentences.

• 44:14Speaker 03

  I just, just

• 44:17Speaker 03

  like keeled over. It was just crying. And he like put his hand on me and just like fuck off, like.

• 44:28Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I think he said something like, oh, this must be real for you now. And it's like, no, like I'm, I can't imagine what my family's going through. Cause that whole time I'm like, okay, I gotta be strong, get through this. And like, I just could not allow myself to think that my family like knew I was missing or like knew anything. Cause like,

• 44:49Speaker 03

  like I knew what was happening to me, but I can only imagine like as parents, like what would be going on in your mind, like wondering like what's happening to your little girl? Just cut.

• 45:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, like I feel like especially that moment, he showed me that to break me and like, I was just

• 45:17Speaker 03

  so fucking pissed at him for succeeding.

• 45:21Alex Cooper?

  Why do you think he showed you that? He wanted it to rub it in?

• 45:25Speaker 03

  I think, cause he kept saying throughout the whole thing, you're so strong. Wow. Like I didn't, you know, like he'd say, like, we've studied how victims respond in situations like this and, and like, I didn't expect you to, like, he just kept complimenting me and like, saying how shocked, which was even more reason for me to not give him anything, you know, like, yeah, bro, like I'm, I'm not gonna, yeah, I'm, you're not gonna see me scared.

• 45:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I, yeah, it's like, uh, it was sadistic in a, in a psychological way.

• 46:05Alex Cooper?

  When you were sitting alone in moments when he wasn't with you, like what did you, what kept you going? Like, what would you think about that gave you hope to be like, keep it together? We've got this.

• 46:18Speaker 03

  My family, my life, my work, Aaron, like I just kept thinking about my future, like I

• 46:31Speaker 03

  it was a balance of like

• 46:35Speaker 03

  coming to peace with the end of my life.

• 46:39Speaker 03

  Because I didn't want, if that last moment came, I didn't want to be surprised and shocked and terrified and have it just, and then that's it. Like I wanted to be solid in the fact that like I even if I wasn't thirty yet, like I still lived a good life and I had a lot to be proud of and

• 47:04Speaker 03

  like how lucky am I to have the family I have, the friends I have and you know, like I sought out to get my doctorate and be a physical therapist and

• 47:16Speaker 03

  I did that, you know, and I like,

• 47:21Speaker 03

  but then I was also just trying to also focus on my future. And like, if I get out of this, what's, what, you know, what's next? And, and so then that can motivate me to continue on. And I like called upon anyone and everyone that I could, like, and you know, like I'm alone and God knows where. And then there's this human over here who's just like terrorizing me, but I was just like trying to call upon any energy I could. And like, it's crazy, like after being released and like, I mean, what's sad about it is there was a lot of people when I was in captivity that were praying for me

• 48:01Speaker 03

  and wishing me well. And I felt that.

• 48:04Alex Cooper?

  You're trying to like mourn yourself as you are potentially about to die. And that is like, no one should have to do that. And to know the way that it went when you came out, let's talk about that because this is where it's like, everyone fucking failed you. Your kidnapper tells you he's gonna bring you home. Did he explain why?

• 48:26Speaker 03

  Uh, he said that he was gonna release me.

• 48:33Speaker 03

  But there was media coverage, Aaron had gone to the police and it would be, I think he was, it was too hot in the Bay area to, to release me. And he also said that he wanted me to be able to get to family, like I've been through enough.

• 48:55Speaker 03

  And he asked where, you know, where my family lived and he had my purse, my belongings and it had my mom's home address on it. So it was like, I can't lie. And also, do you wanna be able to get to someone? And, and so we agreed on a cross street. And he even said like, well, what if your parents aren't home? What if, and, but I've got childhood friends who live walking distance. I was just like, what I like, just, yeah, like let, okay, sure. Like if you're going to do it, please, yeah, like, and so we agreed on a cross roads. That was like a half a mile from my mom's and I mean, even on the drive down, like he gave me a higher sedative.

• 49:40Speaker 03

  And I was passed out for like the nine hour drive, but I still wasn't sure if what he was saying was just again, to try to appease me and help make sure that I comply. And, and so when he woke me up and said, we're here.

• 50:03Speaker 03

  Like I just, you know, he said he was in an alley out of you from the street and when he drove off, like I still wasn't sure if I was actually where he said I was until I like stepped out and saw the name of the street and was like, I'm home.

• 50:25Alex Cooper?

  In that moment, just on the street, because I know it didn't last long, in your brain, did you think like, I'm free, I'm safe?

• 50:32Speaker 03

  No, I mean, I never really felt that. I mean, physically, like, okay, like, what, he's gone, like, the car, like, I've heard it drive off, it's gone. But before he had me out, took me out of the car, he was like, you know, yeah, Aaron went to the police and you're gonna have to talk to them. And you can say whatever I told you about the organization, but you can't say two things. You can't say anything about any of us being in the military or anything about us having sex, his words.

• 51:07Speaker 03

  And, you know, we know where your family live, like, we, like, we monitor victims for years. Based on everything that he had done and said so far, like, yeah, I believe that he, they would be watching me, they would be monitoring me. And so although physically free, I felt like I was going to be confined and restrained by their threats forever.

• 51:28Alex Cooper?

  So when he releases you, I understand what you're saying. You're like, as much as I was free physically, I felt mentally still captive, knowing that this person is like, we're watching your family. Don't do this, don't say this to the police. Like, you're kind of beholden, because again, you're now aware of what this person and these people are capable of. And so surviving this awful traumatic experience should have been the end of it for you.

• 51:55Alex Cooper?

  You get out and you have a complete new set of problems. Once you're released from your captor. When did you start to realize that the police and media didn't believe anything that you were about to tell them?

• 52:13Speaker 03

  I think there was moments, so a neighbor at my dad's, my dad wasn't home, she recognized me, brought me in within minutes. There was two Huntington Beach officers there and I spoke to them for like an hour and a half. And as I'm speaking to them, I hear helicopters outside, like, the media's collecting, there's people, dogs barking, it was like this, and they're like, oh, yeah, it's, it's a media storm out there. And I'm just like, I, I mean, I thought like, maybe

• 52:48Speaker 03

  there was like a local report from like what he showed me in captivity, like, I had no clue, like, that it was aired all, you know, all over. And, and when I'm speaking to the police, I, one moment I see him holding a recording device by his side and he didn't tell me he was recording. And that was like, uh, like, that felt threatening. And I had told the officers too, like, I'm afraid of them coming back. I'm afraid of what I say here is going to be leaked to the media and they'll find out. And

• 53:26Speaker 03

  it was just like a really horribly conflicted position to be in because I didn't want to lie. But then I'm like, if I speak to them, the chances are I might have to. And so I don't want to do something

• 53:44Speaker 03

  that could maybe save me but hurt my family later on. And

• 53:56Speaker 03

  I was also

• 53:59Speaker 03

  I remember there was waiting, like, they, they said they needed to talk to the Vallejo police. So we're gonna get ahold of them, we're gonna get ahold of them. And the time was going on, I'm like, just something didn't feel right. And then when they finally did get connected with the lead Vallejo detective, he had said that he was gonna be offering a proffer of agreement, which is basically immunity. And I'm just like, immunity from what? I'm a victim of a crime. Like, I don't.

• 54:32Speaker 03

  And it made it all more terrifying because of how the whole kidnapping went. Like, how arrogant my captor was. He was like, yeah, there's media, but like, it's okay, it's gonna be good PR for our group. It shows us, it shows you know, people that they can hire us and we are not gonna like overreact and kill the victim. And it's just like, and, and even his threats of like, we'll know what you say, like, we'll always be watching. And I was just like, oh, my God, is this phase two of the kidnapping? Like, is, like, why are the police behaving this way? Like, I have family talking to the lead detective and they're like, he's angry, he's yelling, he's cussing, like,

• 55:11Speaker 03

  they want you to come up and make a statement, there's an FBI plane here. And, and my family, I have a couple of family members who are attorneys and they're like, no, like, we need a criminal defense attorney, like, no more statements, we, like, and, and the fact that, like, people were shocked that I got an attorney, especially the detectives themselves. It's like, you offered me a legal agreement. And I don't know what the fuck that is. I don't know what that means. I don't know what my rights are. Like, I don't know anything. Like, I'm like, how do you expect me to navigate this? Like, so, yeah, I'm gonna consult with an attorney.

• 55:49Alex Cooper?

  No, but especially when you're like, they're offering me like immunity, or like, we, I, I was just kidnapped. What do you, what do you mean, me immunity? Like, don't you want me, don't you want to go catch the guy that?

• 55:58Speaker 03

  Right. And that's why I just felt like, like, they're framing us. Like, someone's involved in here. Like, it was just so, like, it, none of it made sense. I didn't, like, who, then who do you turn to? Like, who, who do you go to?

• 56:19Alex Cooper?

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• 57:42Alex Cooper?

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• 59:03Alex Cooper?

  That's ritual.com/callherdaddy for 25% off your first month. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. So can you quickly just like, paint the picture? Like, what were the theories people had? What did they believe happened?

• 59:26Speaker 03

  They, I don't fucking know. I mean, because all of it doesn't make sense. So like, Aaron.

• 59:36Speaker 03

  Called nine one one and went to the police station and told them what happened and they immediately said he was a murderer and that yeah, like they're gonna find my dead body like I'm looking for a dead Denise, not a live Denise, you killed her. You know, either you could be a cold, calculated monster, you can admit you made a mistake. And he just endured eighteen hours of interrogation because he thought, I can't admit to something I didn't do. And if I push back and get an attorney, I'm gonna alienate them. And like, my main focus is them finding her. So we just thought like, if I endure a little more, a little more, they're gonna see the truth and they'll try to find her. And then I was forced to record a proof of life in captivity. So the

• 1:00:19Speaker 03

  next day when that was sent, then they immediately went from like, you guys were fighting, so you murdered her to then I made this up to get back at him. But then when I'm released, it's the both of us in on it together to get famous. I don't like to like someone had a theory about like wanting to be like, reality TV or like, I don't fucking know. And so Aaron's brother is an FBI agent and he's like, just that like she I had worked in LA right before moving up to Vallejo. He's like, so

• 1:00:59Speaker 03

  she she moved from LA to try to like pursue her, you know, her fame in Vallejo, California, like what the like, it just none of it, none of it made sense.

• 1:01:12Alex Cooper?

  I think another theory that was so terrifying when I was watching the doc was like, the fact that Gone Girl, the movie with Ben Affleck had come out and everyone was like, this is the real life Gone Girl, like she's faking her death and then coming back. And it's like, how fucked that people were comparing something that actually happened to you and being like, maybe she's trying to be like the movie, like, when you started seeing that, like, did you want to fucking scream?

• 1:01:40Speaker 03

  I mean, I, I didn't watch any of that, actually, like the I was released and then had to immediately go find an attorney, like got to him at ten o'clock at night. And he's like, look, the Vallejo police just held a press conference and completely threw you under the bus and said it was all a lie. So the world thinks you're a liar. Like, you're not gonna be able to work again. Like, you're, you know, so I'm like, literally, like, everything I had focused on in captivity of like, I want to get back to my life was just taken away from me. And I still was fucking terrified that, like, they were gonna come back and kill me. And so I'm like, do I speak to them? Do I not? Like, I

• 1:02:23Speaker 03

  finally do. And then the next two days is being interrogated by not just the Vallejo police, but also the FBI. I had to go in for a SARD exam and my criminal defense attorney is telling me like, look, like, it's, it's really grueling. It's like a four hour long thing. Like, they're gonna like, strip you down, they take pictures of you, they, you know, examine you internally. And I'm like, okay, like, how bad can it be until like, I'm fucking there? I mean, it's like, the last humiliating, like, thing that you could go through, like, so soon after your body being attacked and violated. But it's like, okay, like, I've got to do my duty, you know, like, I gotta make sure that this

• 1:03:04Speaker 03

  doesn't happen to another woman, another person. And then all of that, it was just like, used against me. And remember, the second day before I was going in for questioning with the FBI, my attorney said, like, they're calling you Gone Girl. And I'm like, well, what does that mean? Is that a bad thing? Like, I don't, I didn't read the book. I didn't, I didn't see the movie. I didn't know what the I like, I heard about it, but like, like, is that bad? He's like, okay, like, we're gonna go in for questioning, you know, and it's just, and then I think like, I watched one Nancy Grace, uh, clip and was like, I can't, I can't fucking watch a thing.

• 1:03:47Alex Cooper?

  I think it's also so sad to hear, like, how many people have said to women, like, why didn't you just get like, an exam, like, after you were raped? Like, why didn't you get an exam? And it's like, to go through the most violating traumatic experience to then basically reopen your body again to be violated. It's like, I just, it's such an awful headspace that people even feel comfortable to ask a question to a woman that's already been violated. Like, why don't, basically, why don't I want to get violated again? Is that what you're asking me? And it's, and it's so frustrating in history, we've seen so many people, but she didn't get the rape kit because it didn't happen. And it's like, it's so small minded. And it's also just such from a male perspective. And I

• 1:04:32Alex Cooper?

  know you were dealing with a lot of men in this case that were looking at you, wondering why you didn't act a certain way. I mean, I wrote down, people were claiming you weren't believable because you acted too calm, you didn't seem physically injured enough, and you weren't sad enough.

• 1:04:51Alex Cooper?

  How did that make you feel?

• 1:04:55Speaker 03

  I mean, in the moment, I was just shocked by it all. I, I mean, even the questioning, like, the FBI agent asked, like, did you scream? Like, no. Why? I was woken from a dead sleep. There was multiple people there, like, I didn't. And I think he even asked, like, did you think about screaming? Like, somebody asked me that. I remember saying, like, well, I thought about it. Yeah, I thought I thought about all the things, all the things I could possibly do. Are you fucking kidding me? Like, every second, I'm trying to like, solve the math problem in my head. Like, what's the probability of me screaming to get me out alive? Nope. Okay. Like, what about me fighting? I'm

• 1:05:39Speaker 03

  drugged? Nope. Okay, can I run? I don't know where I'm at. No, like, you know, like, it's just also like, what defense do I have? I have my ability to connect with human beings. So, okay, like, that's my best defense right now. And it got me out alive. So like, fuck all of them for their stupid shit. And you know what, like, just, what's crazy about it, too, is like, they're trained to know better. So like, Aaron's brother is an FBI agent. He's also in the army. I've had

• 1:06:14Speaker 03

  friends' husband who's a Marine. They're like, they teach us, if you are ever kidnapped or taken hostage, that you build a report, like, you, you figure out how to survive. You get food, water, and you build a rapport to get yourself out. Like, what you did is what we're trained to do. Like, I don't want to be like sexist or like, put people in a box of like, you know, because they're dudes, they don't get it. But like, something isn't clicking, and it's not carrying over. Like, I know that they get training, that not all victims act the same. But they don't treat victims that way. So it's just like, what, what has to happen? And then there's a female detective

• 1:06:59Speaker 03

  who is the one that, like, looked outside of the box and saw the whole picture and said, nope, there's another victim out there. I gotta find her. And she's the one that, like, saved us and saved our lives. And so it's just, you know, and you hear of other cases where it's like the female detective who is linking. And so it's like, I mean, I think more women in general in the environment with them. And like, if they actually listen and heard them, would be helpful.

• 1:07:29Alex Cooper?

  Well, I think even what you're saying, Denise, too, is like, we, we experience life completely different than men. It's like, oh, I'm sure you would have screamed. And then you would have tried to lunge at him and punch him in the face and tackle him in the ground. We can't do that.

• 1:07:42Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:07:43Alex Cooper?

  We physically can, we know, we're, we're smarter than that. Why didn't you scream? Every woman in the room would be like, duh, like, of course you didn't scream. But it's like, because men are so privileged in those type of moments to just use their like, brute force, like, we don't, we can't rely on that. And so it's disheartening to hear you're staring at all these men being like, what do you mean, did I scream? Like, of course, I didn't scream. And they're like, why? As if you're guilty for something, you're lying, you must be lying.

• 1:08:11Speaker 03

  I mean, everything was about me or Aaron, like, neither one of us behaved in the right way. And it was helpful later on to hear from an expert in coercive control, Laura Richards. She has a podcast, Real Crime Profile. But she was saying, it was studied in men primarily, like this fight or flight response, it's flight, fight, flight, freeze, and then there's also fawn. And that's the woman's primarily more innate defense of like, the please and appease, like, I know I can't fight, I know I can't flee, like, you win. So then what else can I do? And, and that's what a lot of women have to do. And it is like, really infuriating that it's like this day and age. Why

• 1:08:55Speaker 03

  don't, like, we should know better. We know better. We should, right?

• 1:09:00Alex Cooper?

  It's so interesting. You said that I just interviewed a woman who was attacked by a man. And it was Megan Fox talking about being assaulted. And she was like, I fawned. And like, I know that was like, my initial reaction is don't fight back, deescalate the situation. And as women, that's like, our way to like, get ourselves out alive. And again, men are just like, huh? Like, you didn't fight back? Like, because I wanted to live?

• 1:09:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. Like, you endure one whore, so you can save yourself from another. And so you could save your life.

• 1:09:39Alex Cooper?

  When you're talking to me about this, like, I'm trying to even comprehend, like, you go through this dramatic experience, you come out, no one's believing you, like, did in a way that almost feel worse? You're like,

• 1:09:52Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. What I deal, the, yeah, the processing through everything, like, the pain, all of it, like, the, what happened after the kidnapping, absolutely, has been the hardest part to deal with. Because I think you can kind of like, understand that there's people out there who are motivated to cause harm. And it's just a really unfortunate, horrible situation that it, like, we were targeted, it happened.

• 1:10:23Speaker 03

  When you go through a traumatic event, you want to call upon your community, like the people in your life, other humans to help get you through it, to help give you strength and support. Like you were trained your whole life, call 911 if something bad happens, call 911 and they'll help. And they only made it worse. And by their public statements, like, people saw my name and saw my face and they thought gone girl liar hoaxer fraud, you know, and

• 1:10:55Speaker 03

  like, how can I work again? Like, you know, like, how can I put my hands on another human and have them like, trust me with their well being? If they think I'm some con artist. And so like, everything I worked for, everything that meant something to me was taken from me. And so it, it was, yeah, it was devastating like, and it just was a constant.

• 1:11:22Speaker 03

  Like, I'm not performing well enough for any of you, like from captivity and assaults. And then, you know, you're not emotional enough. You're not, I mean, even though I was sitting there, like it's my head and my hands sobbing to these officers. Like somehow that's not emotional enough. Like I'm drugged, but like, I just, uh, not, yeah, I mean, everything, even like things that my family told the police, like, oh, she, she runs half marathons and she, she's a fighter and she's strong. And they, they use that against me. Like, oh, you're, you're strong. Like, like, well, yeah, I mean, I'm not

• 1:12:05Alex Cooper?

  really like I'm in shape, I guess, but I'm not

• 1:12:07Speaker 03

  like, I'm not fasting. I like, I was, remember telling the law enforcement, like I, I run with Aaron, like I don't catch, I can't like, we're not on pace. Like I know my strengths and I know my limitations and that's like really important for me to figure out what to use in a situation like that.

• 1:12:27Alex Cooper?

  Denise, I am so sorry you had to deal with that because just again, as you're talking about it, I'm like, to go from the absolute lowest moment of your life. And you're wanting to like fling yourself to everyone and be like, I'm back, I'm alive, I made it. Oh my God. And everyone just slams the fucking door in your face and is like, what the fuck were you doing? You were trying to get famous off of this. And you're like, no, I, I was just assaulted and abused and like mentally fucked with for how many days? Like, listen to me and no one believes you. Like, I cannot imagine this psychological warfare that must have put you in a spiral of like, how did it affect the, during that time, your like day to day life? Like, did friends turn on you?

• 1:13:10Speaker 03

  My close friends, Aaron's close friends, they all supported us and all believed in us. And that, that was, you know, and our families like that. Oh, you know, because you, you can hear and see like how things can get twisted with family or, you know, like it, the possibilities of that. But like both of our families unconditionally, like embraced us and each other. And, and he hadn't met most of my family yet, you know? So it's like, hi, sir, I'm dating your daughter. Like, you know, like it's like, nice to meet you under these circumstances. It was just all so crazy. Um,

• 1:13:56Speaker 03

  but you know, the little bit of stuff I looked on, on social media, the Facebook and like some people who had originally like, oh, you know, she's missing. And then they would post articles, you know, highlighting gar- gone girl and going, I don't get it. And kind of like jumped into that whole,

• 1:14:15Speaker 03

  that whole thing. And, and that was another thing that was really devastating because it's like, okay, maybe like this, you know, officer was misogynistic and stupid, thinks I'm gone girl, but like, someone who knows me? You know, and then you think back to all the things that you've done in your life and you're like, have I given people an excuse to think that I'm this horrible person? And so there's like a lot of self blame and, uh, like the loss of self and identity. Um, yeah, I mean, it's people, you know, go out and give their opinion and

• 1:14:59Speaker 03

  their hate, thinking like, well, I'm allowed to, I'm justified to, it's just words. Like it's, it, it causes a lot, a lot of trauma, a lot of trauma. And it's like, you're, you're no better. Just because you're not hitting someone doesn't mean that you're not causing severe damage.

• 1:15:18Alex Cooper?

  Until he was like, found, what was your lowest moment when you were out?

• 1:15:32Alex Cooper?

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• 1:16:59Alex Cooper?

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• 1:17:40Alex Cooper?

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• 1:18:23Alex Cooper?

  Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/daddy. That's better H E L P dot com slash daddy. Until he was like, found, what was your lowest moment when you were out?

• 1:18:41Speaker 03

  I think the lowest moment was after two days of being interrogated, the FBI agent saying,

• 1:18:49Speaker 03

  there's a lot of inconsistencies in your story and essentially I don't believe you. And he told my attorney, he was 99% sure I was lying. And that my attorney should watch Gone Girl. It was just kind of like,

• 1:19:02Speaker 03

  Like there's like I all I had was the truth. Erin, same thing. All we did was just give them, give them the truth. And it was just like, I mean, how it's like you're hitting your head against the wall. It I like. You're in a Twilight Zone. I mean.

• 1:19:21Alex Cooper?

  I'm sure you've had through writing the book and the documentary and interviews like you've had probably some time to think about it like. Why do you think?

• 1:19:31Alex Cooper?

  Women have to work so fucking hard to be believed?

• 1:19:37Speaker 03

  I think it's still just really. Easy for people to think that women.

• 1:19:46Speaker 03

  Like are attention seeking and overly dramatic and. Um, conniving. I I mean, it's really sad like it. You like even the responses from other women that I got. It was like, wow, like, do you view yourself this way? This is how you see women? This is really disturbing, but I mean, I think a lot.

• 1:20:13Speaker 03

  Is set up and and society and. I mean, still even now with.

• 1:20:22Speaker 03

  The Netflix series out and like the truth out. People still criticize Erin and I not. Emoting enough and not being. Believable. We're just being like vanilla or, I mean, you name it.

• 1:20:40Alex Cooper?

  Well, also, like, not you. You literally talk about like dissociating from your body.

• 1:20:47Alex Cooper?

  That can take like a lifetime to like completely repair and reengage and like get yourself back to a place that you can even like.

• 1:20:56Alex Cooper?

  Go on with your day to day life and not like every day. I'm sure you think about this every single day. This is with you for the rest of your life.

• 1:21:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:21:03Alex Cooper?

  Like, there's parts that you have to compartmentalize so you can survive, so that you can be with your children, so that you can smile. And it's like. You're so right. It's like if they cry too much, then like they're performing. If you don't cry enough, then you're soulless. And it's like, there is no. Right answer. And the fucked up thing is all the judgment is coming from people who have never experienced it. How the fuck do you know how you would respond in this situation?

• 1:21:31Speaker 03

  Well, and that's where.

• 1:21:34Speaker 03

  I mean, I'm hopeful that the true crime genre is changing and shifting and evolving. Cause that's, you know, people had the wrong perception of how people behave in extreme situations. And again, I can like get why. People in the public might, you know, if their only. Experience is by watching something, but when law enforcement goes to fiction and uses that as a a measure to judge people, that's where it's really. Terrifying, but like honestly, I finally watched Gone Girl. Probably like nine months after the kidnapping, like I couldn't face it. And when I watched it, I was like.

• 1:22:16Speaker 03

  It actually released a lot of that self blame. Cause I was like. It didn't matter what what I did. I mean, you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. It didn't matter. Like they believed what they believed and whatever I did or said. Was only going to fit that box. And so. I was able to kind of release myself from it like this wasn't about me. Like that's not, it's not me. It's it's their view of. Someone of women of whoever, but it's it's not me.

• 1:22:48Alex Cooper?

  No, it's like I remember talking to Amanda Knox and her being like. All of a sudden I turned around and it was like about like a it was like a sex case where I was like this crazy woman that was like having threesomes and Amanda was like. Wait, I what? Like, how did?

• 1:23:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:03Alex Cooper?

  Someone just died. Like, can we go find the person that like how I'm having threesomes with my roommate? Like, this is not. The and people love to for especially for women. There's like this narrative. You're right that it's like. They want us to play into this role. And I think why it's hard to believe us is because people don't want to, because it will completely disrupt. The societal norms of like men dictate, women are like emotional and erratic and dramatic. And that's how everyone wants to be, because if we actually start listening to women and we start taking what they're saying at face value. What is that going to do to the people that run the entire fucking country?

• 1:23:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, I. I think people just don't want to admit how bad it is. Cause then if you know how bad it is and you're not doing anything about it, then you're complicit.

• 1:23:54Alex Cooper?

  When your kidnapper was arrested and people started to realize. You were telling the truth the whole time. How did that make you feel?

• 1:24:12Speaker 03

  It all, it all felt horrible. I mean, it really did. It.

• 1:24:19Speaker 03

  Cause when we found.

• 1:24:22Speaker 03

  Out about it, he got caught for attacking another family.

• 1:24:29Speaker 03

  And then.

• 1:24:32Speaker 03

  We were reading in the FBI affidavit that. There were calls that were placed the first night I was in captivity that the police could have. Traced back to the location I was in captivity in.

• 1:24:48Speaker 03

  And they could have saved me. And even if. For whatever delay, they couldn't have saved me and I was still released. They could have explored that. And caught him. And instead they were just so focused on being right. That another family was attacked.

• 1:25:09Speaker 03

  And it took a detective, a female detective, Misty, to. Look beyond her case. She noticed there was a blonde hair on goggles and her victims all had dark hair. And so she thought there's more to this. And even that, like. She came up with a lot of resistance trying to pursue that beyond the case that was in front of her. And so it's just like.

• 1:25:35Speaker 03

  I mean, I'm glad I'm like, she's our hero and we're fortunate to have our life back. And for people to know the truth, but it's just like so frustrating because at what cost, you know, and. And even after that, like, there's no accountability. There's no real like, sorry, we did this. We're gonna make sure. We'll never do it again, you know, so it's just like, it's just one disappointment.

• 1:26:03Alex Cooper?

  Didn't the male officers literally get promoted?

• 1:26:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, the lead detective got officer of the year.

• 1:26:10Alex Cooper?

  It's like.

• 1:26:11Speaker 03

  That year and we named him in a civil lawsuit too, like that year. He like messes up their. Like the, you know, the most publicized case they've had in a while, get named in a lawsuit, but they like. Or have to stroke his ego so much to to give him officer of the year. It's just.

• 1:26:29Alex Cooper?

  It's fucking disgusting. And I even just that right there is such a testament to like the world we fucking live in.

• 1:26:36Speaker 03

  What is encouraging is that there are so many law enforcement officers who've reached out to us. Especially with the Netflix series coming out and being like, this is awful. This is not how it should be. We wanted their like dedicated to make change. Um, and so, you know, that's something that Erin and I want to do is like. Speak with law enforcement and work with them and just see like, how how can we all do better? Let's work together and and. And really, what what's our common goal? Like, let's just all help each other and be there for each other.

• 1:27:11Alex Cooper?

  What would you say to anyone that's a woman listening or watching today that? Has come forward to share her story in some capacity and wasn't believed like.

• 1:27:25Speaker 03

  I feel you.

• 1:27:28Speaker 03

  I think the biggest thing, um. I'm just gonna get emotional, but just to always believe in yourself. There was.

• 1:27:38Speaker 03

  Times, both Erin and I like question our own sanity. Like, did this really happen? Am I?

• 1:27:47Speaker 03

  Am I who I believe I am? Or am I this horrible person that no one can believe in, you know? And so like.

• 1:27:55Speaker 03

  I think sometimes it's human nature.

• 1:28:00Speaker 03

  To to like blame yourself because the only thing you can control is yourself. So if it's your fault, maybe.

• 1:28:09Speaker 03

  Maybe then you could protect yourself better later on. And so it's kind of hard to actually just.

• 1:28:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, release yourself from that and go just it. It's not my fault. And I did the best I can and I'm not gonna let anyone gaslight me and like.

• 1:28:28Speaker 03

  I mean, even with the assaults for me, like I.

• 1:28:32Speaker 03

  Like had this view like it's not all that bad. It wasn't that bad. In the FBI affidavit, it said there was no signs of non consensual sex. So it was just like. Like time and time again, like it wasn't that bad. You she came up unharmed, unscathed, like all these things that. Just cut away like. Devaluing. How I felt and what I went through. And so. Yeah, I think just like the biggest thing is just to believe in yourself, like never give up on yourself. That can be really hard sometimes, you know?

• 1:29:09Alex Cooper?

  How have you?

• 1:29:13Alex Cooper?

  Been trying and like, what has the process been to like reclaim your relationship to your body after this?

• 1:29:26Speaker 03

  Um, well, it's uh still an evolving process.

• 1:29:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:29:40Speaker 03

  Oh, we've gone through therapy, like Erin and I've gone through couples therapy, um, individual therapy and you know, try to work on like moments of gratitude and and being present in the moment and appreciating just like life in general and all the little moments in life, um.

• 1:30:03Speaker 03

  And I've had body work done and tried meditation and and you know, just even like working out, boxing, like different ways to like feel empowered and strong, um, speaking, um, kind of taking the narrative back and uh is been helpful and even just like journaling it was helpful, um.

• 1:30:26Speaker 03

  You know, but it's, yeah, it's still like, just it's, there's a lot of deep pain. So like I I'm exploring more therapy now and I think just kind of admitting to myself, ourselves, times when it's like, okay, like we need to to refocus and

• 1:30:46Speaker 03

  and so I'm I'm looking into EMDR because I hear great things about it. So like that's I'm hoping that that can help some of that just because there's like a disconnect, you know, like from logically what I know versus like what my body feels and processes. And so I just need to find a way to reconnect those two things.

• 1:31:10Alex Cooper?

  I think that, like you said, speaking about it in a way that like you're reclaiming the narrative, I think for women listening, like everyone has to take their own time and like how you know when you're ready to try to start to heal again. Like I know there's probably so many people that are like immediately get into therapy, like throw yourself into therapy, like some people can't do it immediately, like you need time.

• 1:31:31Speaker 03

  There's layers upon layers of the trauma too. So like trying to peel that back or like something that might be triggering then isn't as much now, but then there's something that's different, you know, I mean, being a parent is like another amazing, wonderful thing. And then also like brings up a lot of fear and worry and but then is also a motivator to to speak out and demand that things need to be better, like things need to be better for them, um.

• 1:32:06Alex Cooper?

  I think a lot of people I'm sure were like, how did you and Erin decide to stay together? Because I was thinking about that. I'm like, on the one hand, I would think like, oh, my gosh, he's the only person that understands it. He went through with you. On the other hand, I'm sure people would be like, you're each a living reminder of the trauma. Like, was there ever a moment you weren't sure you were going to stay together? Like, how did you decide?

• 1:32:33Speaker 03

  I mean, I think I, we both knew, even just, you know, back up to that night of the home invasion, like we we knew that we were meant to be together and overcoming something like this and living through it and surviving it together. I mean, it could break a lot of people up for sure, and I could see how that could happen. Um, but we really like support each other and are patient with each other and we never blamed one another. I mean, I think that's like one of the biggest things. There was never like pointing the finger of like, you should have done this or said this or whatever, you know?

• 1:33:15Speaker 03

  So we're like each other's biggest fans and we we really try to like lift and support each other and

• 1:33:25Speaker 03

  yeah, and and I think too, just like having good communication and admitting like, okay, this isn't working right now, like something needs to change and being able to have the space to to have those conversations because um, yeah, there's the, yeah, there's just different things that can come up.

• 1:33:44Alex Cooper?

  Do you still live in constant fear?

• 1:33:47Speaker 03

  It comes and goes, but yeah, when I, yeah, um.

• 1:33:53Speaker 03

  And then the

• 1:33:56Speaker 03

  speaking out publicly, like when I, when we released the book and even just now with the Netflix series, it's like I keep thinking I'm I'm at a better place. I know I'm at a better place, but it again, like the public shaming mixed with thinking that I was going to be killed. It just brings all of that up. And so, yeah, the hyper vigilance and like thinking of and imagining all all the things that could happen is uh distracting, yeah.

• 1:34:31Alex Cooper?

  You have two children? Congratulations.

• 1:34:35Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:34:37Alex Cooper?

  As you mentioned, like I I can imagine for you, it's a

• 1:34:43Alex Cooper?

  it's terrifying to just have children in general because all you want to do is protect them. On top of that, you're dealing with something that is an extraordinary trauma. Like, have you guys talked about how you will explain this to your children one day?

• 1:35:00Speaker 03

  Don't know exactly when that conversation will happen or exactly how that will look like, but I know that they will know what happened to us. And I think, you know, as they get older and even just little things of like teaching them consent and boundaries and you know, respecting their body and other people's bodies and and so incorporating what we've gone through in small moments like that and kind of building blocks. Yeah, I still don't know the exact right age for for when like and then I'm sure it'll be parts of it and

• 1:35:44Speaker 03

  but I definitely don't want to keep anything from them. I want them to know that no matter what happens in their life, that they can always come to us and be honest with us and we will always support them and I definitely want them to know their value and their worth and not let

• 1:36:05Speaker 03

  anyone dictate that to them and, um. You know, it's good to be strong, but fighting doesn't always have to be what it

• 1:36:17Speaker 03

  people think it is, you know, there's um, power and strength and and patience and and yeah, you don't have to be aggressive and instantly react to be powerful and strong, um. But you know, I mean, I'm sure I'm going to get them in like martial arts and all sorts of stuff too, you know, like but I mean, I think it's just good to like mechanically, you know, the PT nerd in me, um, is just, you know, physically, that's a good idea, but, um.

• 1:36:48Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:49Speaker 03

  You know.

• 1:36:50Alex Cooper?

  How have you changed as a person after surviving this horrific experience?

• 1:37:01Speaker 03

  I think there's a a lot that's changed and then a lot that hasn't, you know, in some ways I feel like especially kind of going through the process of of trying to eliminate the self blame and all of that. I I've become more grounded and confident in who I am at my core and realizing, no, I'm not what all these people thought or said. I I know who I am. I know I who I am in the world and to other people, to my family, um.

• 1:37:37Speaker 03

  You know, I think a lot of people would think that you could get quite jaded um, after going through something like this, but I I just, I mean, I'm try to be practical and cautious, but I also do still see the good in people and in the world. And so I I want to try to like harness that and use that and and turn it and keep kind of setting the motion towards positivity and

• 1:38:13Speaker 03

  but yeah, I mean, there's I'm gonna have a lifelong battle of dealing with trauma and pain. But I know that I can do that. I can still have joy and gratitude and and enjoy moments and life and laugh and be silly and joke and you know, I can still have all the good even with all of this, you know?

• 1:38:39Alex Cooper?

  Totally. Last question. What change do you hope comes for survivors and women by telling your story?

• 1:38:53Speaker 03

  I mean, at the core baseline is just again for for women to believe in themselves. And I'm hoping as more survivors speak out, it empowers others. I know that I was

• 1:39:10Speaker 03

  definitely empowered by watching others speak out and realize like, okay, like, maybe I could do that, too. And um, yeah, if if we just hear from more people and we realize what the issues are, then we have a better idea of what needs to change.

• 1:39:28Alex Cooper?

  Yeah. I also think and like, because I have so many women that listen. And I think something that stuck with me when you were talking about it, Denise, was like, reading online, like, other women speaking about you in a way that you were like, is this how we like, think of each other? And it makes me so sad, honestly, because it's like, if all we have at some point is each other, like, every woman can relate in some capacity to each other of like, we know what it's fucking like. We know the sexualization. We know people don't believe us. We know we're told to be silent. We know all of this. We've lived it. We, we, like you said, we grow up watching it in art and movies and books everywhere. It's like, there's this

• 1:40:13Alex Cooper?

  romanticizing when a woman is weak and doesn't stand up for herself. And when a woman does stand up for herself, you're demonized and you're a bitch and you're loud and you're obnoxious. And if a man did the same thing, it just wouldn't be, it wouldn't be taken the same way. And so it's like, how I appreciate, aside from the work you're also doing in law enforcement right now, also just for women of like, this is a really important conversation, that you're someone that came forward and should have been, you should have been believed. And you went through something horrific. And sadly, like, a lot of the themes, a lot of women listening have probably gone through. Like, one in three women is assaulted. It's like, these are things of us just constantly, like you said, when he's going away to jail and he'll be released when he's seventy, right? It's like,

• 1:40:56Alex Cooper?

  no, no, it's a power dynamic. It's like men getting off on making us feel small, making us feel weak. How do we as women just start to like, fucking support each other a little bit more and believing each other? Because they're not going to believe us because it threatens everything in society. If we start to rise up and we start to be considered equal, then everything is going to fucking flip on its head. So how do we at least have a little bit more of unity with each other to be like, I see you. I've been there. And I don't know the answer. I I think it's important to talk.

• 1:41:30Speaker 03

  I mean, yeah, talk and hear and listen and and just try to remind ourselves, like, no matter what you think or think you know of a situation, you don't know it all. Even if it's something small, you know, like, like, office gossip or something, like, you just, you just don't know. And I think we just need to recognize that and try to empathize with people and and just just try to receive each other with a little bit more openness and love and the very least try to like, recognize when we're being judgmental and and not act on that judgment would be nice.

• 1:42:15Alex Cooper?

  Yeah. I cannot thank you enough for coming. I think back to what you said where you're like, I did react exactly how I should have reacted. And you're so right. Like, you did every single thing that you could have done to survive and then some. And for anyone to judge you on how you responded to something that most of us can never fathom going through and surviving, like, shame on everyone for failing you. And I'm just so happy that I got to speak with you because the Netflix documentary, like, yes, it was, it was very in detail and I I got to see a picture of it, but speaking and being able to like, look you in the eyes and like, seeing how this is affecting you day to day, like, yeah, I pray to God that

• 1:43:00Alex Cooper?

  this conversation and what you're doing out there can like, help the next woman that goes through this. And then everyone's like, no, we believe her and we see her and this is going to make a difference. So thank you so much for coming. I really appreciate it.

• 1:43:11Speaker 03

  Thank you for having me.

• 1:43:27Alex Cooper?

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