Pod Insights British Scandal The IRA Heiress | From Debutante to Defendant | 1 About this episode Oxford graduate, aristocrat, heiress – Rose Dugdale has it all. So her path from millionaire’s daughter to IRA bomb-maker shocks British society. And Dugdale’s ideals means she doesn't just reject her privileged upbringing - she sets out to destroy it, one explosion at a time.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Alice Levine? Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of British Scandal ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.
0:12 Matt Forde? All right, Alice.
0:13 Alice Levine? Just one minute, Matt, sorry, I'm just in the middle of something.
0:15 Matt Forde? What are you doing?
0:16 Alice Levine? I'm just emailing someone to see if I can attend boarding school in my 30s.
0:20 Matt Forde? Okay, I mean, as long as you pay them enough, you might be able to. Hang on, what are you eating?
0:25 Alice Levine? Oh, it's just a light snack. You know, I usually have a banana, but I thought today I'd have Fortnum's caviar.
0:31 Matt Forde? And these, these dogs, what are they doing in here?
0:34 Alice Levine? Matt, they're not dogs, they're hens. Hain, hains.
0:38 Matt Forde? Like beans?
0:39 Alice Levine? They're hounds.
0:40 Matt Forde? Oh, okay, sorry. One more thing, I mean, this is all troubling enough as it is, but I got an invite from you. What's that about?
0:49 Alice Levine? Oh, yeah, I'm getting married.
0:50 Matt Forde? Oh, Alice, congratulations!
0:52 Alice Levine? Thank you, yeah, to my cousin.
0:54 Matt Forde? Now, I know, I know for this series you've gone posh, but I think you've taken it too far.
0:59 Alice Levine? It's the bare minimum.
1:02 Alice Levine? 6th of June 1973, Yarney Farm, Devon. Colonel Dugdale takes a bottle of champagne from the boot of his Jaguar XJ6. He's looking forward to cracking it open and celebrating his big win. His horse came in 25 to 1 at the Epsom Derby, bagging him £125,000. He crunches up the gravel driveway to his 600-acre estate. But as he nears the entrance, his eyes fall on something glinting. He stares in confusion as he realizes it's glass. He looks up to see the kitchen window gaping open, the pane has been smashed. His chest starts to thud.
1:46 Alice Levine? He grabs his hunting rifle from the outhouse and creeps through the front door. Stares at the dining room in horror.
1:55 Alice Levine? The place has been ransacked. Sideboard doors hang open. Silverware has vanished. Prized paintings taken from the walls. He cocks his gun, stalks upstairs, aware of every creak of his footsteps. Peers into his bedroom. Takes in the open window, the frame banging in the wind. His wife's empty jewellery box tossed carelessly onto the bed. He checks one bedroom after another, all ransacked. Until he reaches his beloved middle daughter, Roses. He stops. His gun falls by his side.
2:37 Alice Levine? It's the only room in the house that has been left untouched.
2:43 Alice Levine? The Colonel spins as he hears a noise behind him. Darling! His wife Carol slips into the room. Her eyes are wide. They took grandmother's rings. Sobs catching her throat as she collapses on the pristine bed.
2:56 Matt Forde? I mean, is this the wrong time to tell her that he's just won about two million quid?
2:59 Alice Levine? I feel less sorry for him.
3:01 Matt Forde? Look, I just, I know this is bad, but we've just won 125 grand. In 2024, that's going to be two million quid, so, you know, it's not the end of the world.
3:07 Alice Levine? You can have all the rings, just not your grandma's.
3:12 Alice Levine? The Colonel frowns. You'd have thought the dogs would have scared the bastards off. He gazes forlornly at a photograph on the bedside table. Him and eight-year-old Rose. His arm around her after her first hunt. His mind races as the realisation kicks in. This was a targeted attack, committed by someone who knows the house. He feels a sickness take hold as he realises it can only have been one person.
3:46 Alice Levine? His own daughter has stolen from him.
3:51 Alice Levine? This time, she's gone too far. And he knows there's only one way to stop her.
4:02 Speaker 02 Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of the podcast American Scandal. In our latest series, Benedict Arnold turns his back on the Continental Army and secretly defects. He plots to hand over the most important fortress in the colonies to the British and doom the revolution he once served. Listen to American Scandal on Audible or wherever you get your podcasts.
4:22 Speaker 03 Hey, I'm David Brown, the host of Business Wars from Audible Originals. Indian Motorcycle and Harley-Davidson once defined American riding until Indian collapsed. Decades later, against the odds, one company dared to bring the iconic brand back and the rivalry has returned. Listen to Business Wars on Audible or wherever you get your podcasts.
4:42 Alice Levine? From Wondery, I'm Alice Levine.
4:44 Matt Forde? And I'm Matt Ford.
4:45 Alice Levine? And this is British Scandal, the show where we bring you the murkiest stories that ever happened on these odd little isles.
4:51 Matt Forde? British scandals come in many shapes and sizes. Some are about money, some are about sex, they're all about power.
4:58 Alice Levine? But when we look at scandals a bit closer, they turn out to be stranger, wilder, just plain weirder than we remember.
5:06 Matt Forde? So we're journeying back to ask who's to blame for what happened.
5:09 Alice Levine? And when the dust settled, did anything really change?
5:22 Alice Levine? Okay, Matt, so we like to feature people in British Scandal who go on a journey, embark on a momentous change in their life. So what if I said to you, our main character in this series has probably gone on the biggest possible journey ever, the biggest transformation?
5:38 Matt Forde? Okay, Jamie Oliver, who went from being a TV chef to being a patronizing social lecturer who hates frozen turkey.
5:47 Alice Levine? Wow, okay, we need to drill into your feelings on Jamie at a later date. No, not Jamie Oliver. Anybody else?
5:54 Matt Forde? Well, Gary Lineker went from being a footballer to a TV anchorman.
5:56 Alice Levine? Yeah, not as big a leap as I'm thinking.
5:59 Matt Forde? Sarah Ferguson, who went from being a royal to being a Weight Watchers spokesperson.
6:04 Alice Levine? It's a good one, but I'm actually going to tell you the story of someone called Rose Dugdale. Have you heard of her?
6:11 Matt Forde? I don't like to admit when I don't know stuff. So, yes.
6:17 Matt Forde? No, I haven't, no.
6:19 Alice Levine? You certainly will not be the only one, but she has an incredible story. Rose Dugdale was the heiress who turned criminal. She basically went from living the life of a British aristocrat to being the UK's most wanted woman.
6:32 Matt Forde? Do you know what? I am a sucker for a rebellious, radical posho. I'm getting sort of Mitford energy, but perhaps on the other wing of politics.
6:40 Alice Levine? Exactly. She was rubbing shoulders with royalty, but then pledging allegiance to radical left-wingers this time. This is sort of next level as well, because it's multiple scandals wrapped up in one big scandal, kind of like at Christmas, the bird within the bird within the bird. Let me give you just a little bit of information about Rose, just to whet your appetite. She was part of the IRA. In fact, she was one of the few female members of the IRA that took part in high-profile activities. And I'm talking in the 70s, at the height of the troubles. She hijacked a helicopter. She also orchestrated an art heist, consisting of some of the most famous paintings in history.
7:17 Matt Forde? Man, I mean, apart from the IRA stuff, I like the sound of her.
7:22 Alice Levine? There's a lot to love. She's highly mysterious as well, which is just icing on the cake for a scandal. What was it that made a crossover from the life of privilege to being a feared terrorist? Was it love? Was it political conviction? Or something darker? Let's find out. This is episode one, From Debutante to Defendant.
7:46 Alice Levine? Sixteen years earlier, September 1957, Yarney Farm, Devon.
7:53 Alice Levine? Rose Dugdale tightens her grip on the reins as she gallops across the fields of her father's estate. At 16, she's dressed head to toe in tweed, and in her hand clutches a rifle.
8:06 Alice Levine? She clicks her glossy riding boots against her horse as her brother and his friends chat beside her. I do hope I'll get an invitation.
8:13 Speaker 04 To the bulling.
8:16 Alice Levine? Rose is supposed to be helping her mother write invitations for the upcoming local ball, but she couldn't bear the thought of being stuck indoors all day. Instead, she snuck out for a quick hunt before her brother leaves for university. What on earth are you chatting about? She glances to her left as her brother raises his eyebrows.
8:35 Speaker 04 I don't think it's appropriate for ladies' ears.
8:39 Matt Forde? You're chasing an animal to its death. Like, why are you minding your language?
8:45 Alice Levine? Rose wishes she was going to university. She's loved her childhood. She's been free to ride, hunt, attend parties. But it's starting to feel as though her life has already been mapped out for her. In a year's time, she'll attend the debutante ball, where she's expected to find a husband, settle down, start a family. It's not fair. Why can't I go? But one of the boys cuts in.
9:11 Speaker 04 You didn't want to be in some dusty library. Plus, girls don't go to Oxford, Rose. Not really.
9:17 Alice Levine? She pulls her horse to a standstill. What do you mean, not really? Her brother's horse platters to a halt.
9:24 Speaker 04 Well, I did have a teacher who studied there. She was a bit of an old bag, though.
9:30 Alice Levine? Rose fixes her eyes on the horizon, stares at the nearby woods, then at the wild moors beyond, as an idea starts to form.
9:44 Alice Levine? Later that evening, she taps on her father's mahogany study door.
9:48 Speaker 04 Yes, yes.
9:50 Alice Levine? Rose edges inside, looks at her father sitting at his desk, reading from a history book about the Boer War. He's taught her so much about the world. Long evenings spent learning about this battle or that. He loves watching her learn. But still, she knows she has to play this just right. Daddy, what is the value of education?
10:15 Alice Levine? Her father looks at her with a furrowed brow.
10:18 Speaker 04 Education? Well, it improves a girl's social standing, her marriage prospects, not to mention...
10:26 Alice Levine? She quickly cuts in. Because I've been doing a little reading, and I was wondering... She looks at her father's now-concerned expression. If I attend the debutante ball, complete the whole season, do everything expected of me, would you allow me to apply to Oxford? Her father fronds.
10:45 Speaker 04 To Oxford? Why?
10:49 Alice Levine? Well, to further my education, and, well, it would be at one of the all-girls colleges. She keeps her gaze fixed on him.
10:58 Speaker 04 Oxford, eh?
11:00 Alice Levine? She sees him hesitate.
11:01 Speaker 04 I'd have to talk to your mother.
11:03 Alice Levine? She feels a thrill of excitement. She knows that if she can win around her father, her mother will have to agree.
11:12 Alice Levine? Rose has to get to university. It's her only chance to keep her independence, and she must do that at all costs.
11:27 Alice Levine? October 1959, St Anne's College, Oxford. Rose dashes across Holywell Street. She winces as her shoes pinch. The four-month debutante season is finished, but she still hasn't adjusted to wearing heels.
11:43 Matt Forde? The season makes it sound like you're playing home and away, like, "Oh, I've got to go up to Newcastle this weekend, it's going to be tough up there, the form they're in."
11:51 Alice Levine? She's spent so much time curtseying in front of the Queen, she hasn't had time to make a single friend, or even make a start on her work. Now she's heading back to her tutor's welcome party, and is already late. She glances at the gold watch on her wrist. She's out of breath when she finally reaches Peter A.D.'s modest Victorian terrace.
12:15 Alice Levine? A beautiful woman with short dark hair opens the door. Her laughing eyes are almost black. Doctor Peter Aide invited me. Then you're in the right place. Rose looks at her blankly until the penny drops. She feels her cheeks burn red. You're Peter? Last time I checked. Rose mumbles an apology. She feels so stupid. Well then, aren't you coming in? She follows Peter through a dimly lit hallway and into the sitting room where she's hit by an earthy, heady scent of smoke and hash. Her eyes catching Bam the Bomb and Simone de Beauvoir posters. Everywhere are shelves overflowing with books.
12:58 Alice Levine? Guests, mainly women, dressed in brogues and cords as if they haven't given a second thought to what they've thrown on. She glances down at the taffeta evening gown her mother packed for her. A smaller, thick-set woman clasps Peter gently around the waist and kisses her. Rose's eyes widen. She's never seen two women be so intimate in public.
13:22 Speaker 04 How do you see the situation in Burma?
13:26 Alice Levine? Rose realizes an earnest young man in a black polo neck is directing a question at her.
13:33 Matt Forde? I hate moments like this. Burma, well, some of it's bad, isn't it? But I think there are some positives. I guess it's nuanced.
13:45 Alice Levine? She feels the blood rush to her head. Sorry, I don't know much about African politics.
13:52 Alice Levine? She winces as a chuckle of laughter ripples about the group. Burma is in Southeast Asia. It's where I'm from. Rose's stomach knots. She backs away, embarrassed. Pours herself a glass of champagne. The music and chatter makes her head sting.
14:12 Alice Levine? She forces open the sticky back door and stumbles out into the courtyard garden.
14:18 Alice Levine? She curses herself. She feels like a silly little girl. All that the cross, those formal dinners, hunts and dead balls. She knows how to greet a royal, but nothing about the real world.
14:32 Alice Levine? The back door clicks behind her. Rose inhales a wave of perfume. Peter.
14:40 Alice Levine? Things are really getting going. I actually, I actually think I'll head home. Peter takes a step closer to her. You know, if you're interested in Burma, you can always read my book. Rose turns to Peter. Their eyes lock. For a second, she thinks they might kiss. She quickly backs away.
15:06 Alice Levine? Sorry, I, I don't know. I'm, I'm sorry. She trails off. But Peter just shrugs. I'm in an open relationship.
15:18 Matt Forde? Wow, in 1959, Peter is way ahead of the curve here.
15:23 Alice Levine? Rose looks at her, puzzled. Peter just laughs and leads her back into the party.
15:31 Alice Levine? They blend into the throng of now dancing bodies. Not a foxtrot in sight.
15:38 Alice Levine? Rose begins to feel the beat, takes a drag on the spliff that Peter offers. Decides she loves her parents more than anyone else. But she doesn't want to end up like them. She wants to be progressive, intellectual, political, different. She wants to be just like Peter.
16:05 Alice Levine? Two years later, High Street, Oxford. Rose flinches as the hairdresser picks up a pair of scissors. All of it? Rose is planning to sneak into the Oxford Student Union chamber, dressed as a man, to protest about its ban on female members. She's even arranged for the Daily Express to cover the story. But she's getting cold feet. Peter watches on, amused, cigarette in hand. You don't have to do this, darling. Rose feels herself reddened. She's spent her last two years at Oxford immersed in books on empire, gender theory, Marxism, anything she could get her hands on. But she's never actually done anything about it, until now.
16:51 Alice Levine? Determined, she turns to the hairdresser. Cut it. She holds her breath as strands of hair fall to the floor. She cringes, watching her new short style take shape in the mirror. Her face looks rounder and her ears stick out. "It's worth it," she tells herself, "for the cause."
17:17 Alice Levine? Three hours later, she approaches the union's imposing entrance, trailed by a young reporter. She knows she could get sent down for this, thrown out of Oxford altogether. She tucks in behind a group of young men. The crowd shuffles into the debating chamber as Rose feels a hand nudge into her back. Her stomach nods.
17:40 Alice Levine? She turns. Sorry, old chap.
17:43 Alice Levine? She feels herself breathe as the man pushes past her.
17:48 Alice Levine? A few moments later, Rose takes a seat in the high-ceilinged chamber. It seems emotion has already been tabled about the British class system.
17:58 Speaker 04 We're talking about a system that has existed since the medieval period.
18:03 Alice Levine? She recognizes some of the boys she used to hunt with in Devon. But now their voices are smarmy, hectoring.
18:11 Speaker 04 Have you ever considered there might be a reason some people rise to the top?
18:17 Alice Levine? Another voice sneers.
18:19 Speaker 04 Well, I for one think people like to know their place in society.
18:25 Matt Forde? This is winding me up, and this is historical. You don't rise to the top of your born there, do you? You stay there.
18:31 Alice Levine? Rose bristles. She glances left, then right, takes a deep breath, tries to lower her voice to sound like her father, before she blurts out:
18:41 Speaker 04 And you've spoken to the working classes about that, have you? You've taken a vote?
18:49 Alice Levine? Rose feels a rush of excitement. She's being listened to. She feels all eyes on her.
18:56 Speaker 04 The British class system is an outdated hierarchy.
18:59 Alice Levine? She decides then that this is the perfect moment. She stands up, pulling off her jacket to reveal her feminine frame.
19:13 Alice Levine? The mood immediately shifts. Rose feels rough hands on her shoulders as she's manhandled towards the door.
19:23 Alice Levine? The reporter snaps photographs. Rose raises a triumphant fist as the camera flashes.
19:37 Alice Levine? The next day, Rose stumbles into her lecture, bleary-eyed and late. She's hoping to slip unseen into the back, but bodies shift towards her as she enters. Her classmates rise to their feet and break into spontaneous applause.
19:54 Alice Levine? Rose's eyes flip to the front of the lecture theatre, where Peter Aide is waving a copy of The Daily Express. And blazing across the front of the paper is Rose's picture, under the headline: "Disguised Girl Student Breaks Into A Men-Only Fortress."
20:11 Alice Levine? Rose feels a flush of pride. She's just challenged a 140-year-old rule and made a splash. But now she wants to go further, make a real difference in the world outside of the ivory tower.
20:30 Alice Levine? And Matt, it turns out the buzz cut was worth it because Rose's action led to women being admitted to the union.
20:36 Matt Forde? If you want to change society, you've got to have at least a number two around the back and sides. I mean, if you think about it, all radicals, whether they're on the far right or the Marxist left, they do have their hair short.
20:48 Alice Levine? Coincidence? Only the hot takes here.
20:53 Alice Levine? December 1961, Yarney Farm, Devon. Rose places down her cutlery, runs a hand through her short, uncombed hair, and coughs nervously. "Mummy, Daddy, there's something I need to tell you." She trails off as servants march in to noiselessly clear the table. Looking around in frustration, she feels the butler reach for her plate. "No, no, please, let me." Her mother stares at her in consternation. "Darling Michael can take that." Rose watches as her mother eyes the butler. "Now, it's present time. Daddy has something special for you." Catching her father's eye, Rose sees a twinkle as he reaches into his pocket.
21:37 Alice Levine? "Okay, but you should know what I've decided I'm going to do when I graduate." Her father beams.
21:44 Speaker 04 "Oh, fantastic, dear. Well, this might help you on your way."
21:48 Alice Levine? She watches as he reaches inside his tweed jacket and places a white envelope on the table. "I want to become an activist. I've had a remarkable response to my Oxford Union protest." She flinches as her mother drops her cutlery. "An activist? Rose, we did not send you to Oxford so you could become an... an... I don't even know what an activist is."
22:09 Matt Forde? Fair point, Carol.
22:12 Matt Forde? What is it? What are they doing all day?
22:15 Alice Levine? Rose feels a stab of irritation. "It's my life. If I want to..." Enough! Your father is trying to give you something, Rose. She glares at the envelope. She isn't being listened to. She picks up the letter, reluctantly slices it open with a paper knife, tries to make sense of its content. "I... I... I don't understand."
22:37 Speaker 04 It's your trust fund, darling. I will retain some control.
22:44 Alice Levine? It's almost one million pounds.
22:48 Alice Levine? Using my trusty time travel money calculator, apparently eighteen to twenty million pounds.
22:57 Matt Forde? Man, I don't care how much of an activist you think you are, the moment you get that cheque, you're never working again.
23:03 Alice Levine? You're like, I did the haircut thing. I mean, what more can I really do?
23:06 Matt Forde? Done my bit. Now it's time to chill, to enjoy the rest of my life.
23:11 Speaker 04 I found a lovely little property in Chelsea that I thought...
23:14 Alice Levine? She starts to feel her pulse quicken. Her father places a hand on her shoulder.
23:19 Speaker 04 You know, I do think it's wonderful you want to help people. Your mother and I always make sure we attend balls for good causes. By all means, donate some of your earnings to charity.
23:31 Alice Levine? Rose stares at the figure. A flat in Chelsea does sound nice. She would be independent. She has friends who live in West London. She catches the eye of one of the servants, who looks away.
23:46 Alice Levine? Rose feels embarrassed. She can't imagine what he must be thinking.
23:51 Alice Levine? Leaning back in her chair, she looks around at the excess in this room, the half-eaten goose, the silver serving platters and candelabras, the oil paintings of her ancestors on the wall.
24:05 Alice Levine? She hears Peter's words in her ear. It's about being willing to act, Rose. Without that, all the ideals in the world mean nothing. She takes the envelope and slips it into her purse, feels her father take her palm in his hand.
24:21 Speaker 04 We're so proud of you, Rose.
24:23 Alice Levine? She fixes a smile on her face as her parents raise their glasses.
24:27 Speaker 04 To Rose's future.
24:28 Alice Levine? To Rose's future.
24:31 Alice Levine? But she's already hatching a plan of what she'll actually do with this money. And when her family discover what that plan is, she's not sure they'll be quite so proud.
24:44 Speaker 05 In January 1995, 18-year-old Krista Pike and two friends lured a classmate, 19-year-old Colleen Slemmer, to an abandoned steam plant and killed her. At just 20 years old, Pike was sentenced to death. 30 years later, on September 30, 2026, the state of Tennessee tried to execute her and failed. I'm Candace DeLong, former FBI profiler and host of the podcast Killer Psyche, where we go inside the minds behind the most shocking crimes. In our latest episode, we take you inside the case of Krista Pike. The brutal crime, the childhood of abuse, three decades of appeals, and the night an execution went terribly wrong.
25:29 Speaker 05 Follow Killer Psyche wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of Killer Psyche one week early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.
25:45 Speaker 06 Journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia spent her life exposing powerful people. Then, in 2017, she was killed in a car bombing. I'm Stephen Gray, and for the past nine years, I've been trying to find out who wanted her dead. That search took me to Malta through secret companies, organized crime, and eventually to one of the island's richest and most powerful men. Now, after years of waiting, this trial has finally happened. But when the verdict came in, the case took a turn that almost no one had expected. In a brand-new update to the multi-award-winning podcast Who Killed Daphne?, I'm returning to Malta to find out how we got there and where the search for the truth goes next. Listen to the new episode of Who Killed Daphne? wherever you get your podcasts, and you
26:30 Speaker 06 can hear the full six-part investigation from the beginning, ad-free with Audible. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app and by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.
26:52 Alice Levine? July 1969, Claimants' Union, Tottenham, London.
26:58 Alice Levine? Rose kicks off her leather boots, sinks into a chair. She's been living in Tottenham in a small bedsit for over a year now. She's set up a Claimants' Union and is secretly giving away her trust fund to help locals access state benefits and pay their bills.
27:14 Matt Forde? Claimants' Unions don't really exist anymore, but back in the day, they were obviously an important way for people to know how to access the benefits that they were entitled to.
27:24 Alice Levine? Yeah, it's kind of a hybrid organisation, I suppose, of Citizens Advice Bureau, maybe a food bank, they gave out cheap loans, and sort of a trade union, you know, they worked on collective action. So it's philanthropic, but it's also looking after the rights of people in that community.
27:42 Alice Levine? Every day, more and more families turn up, queues of dejected faces. Mothers unable to afford fuel, school supplies, rent. She starts to feel like she's making no difference at all.
27:59 Alice Levine? Sorry, we're closed. She looks up to see a tall, broad-shouldered man with a wide moustache. I heard you're the angel of Tottenham, and, well, I'm in need of a bit of salvation. She sighs, she isn't in the mood for some cocksure charmer. Come back tomorrow. I'll see what I can do then. Look, I wouldn't ask, but I'm ex-army, and I'm trying to collect a few quid for a couple of old friends. They've been left ironed dry by the British. She looks up at him. I come from a military family. She sees a small smile form on his lips. I don't mean no disrespect, miss, but from what I hear, these are very...
28:37 Speaker 04 Different families.
28:39 Alice Levine? She raises her chin.
28:40 Speaker 04 Actually, Papa was a Colonel.
28:43 Alice Levine? But now the man cuts in.
28:45 Speaker 04 And he saw a lot of frontline action, did he?
28:48 Alice Levine? She's shocked at his directness. She's never actually spoken to her father about where he was stationed.
28:55 Speaker 04 All I can say is that I don't know many squaddies who return from Borneo proud of being British. I respect what you're doing, my lady, but it's people like your father who are the problem.
29:06 Alice Levine? She feels her blood start to boil.
29:09 Speaker 04 I hardly think you can blame my father for whatever atrocities you've seen halfway across, across.
29:14 Alice Levine? She tries to remember where the damn place is he said that he'd been.
29:18 Speaker 04 Borneo.
29:20 Alice Levine? Pausing, she's surprised to see a haunted flash across the man's face. She wonders what horrors he's seen. She pulls out a chair.
29:29 Speaker 04 Tell me then.
29:31 Alice Levine? She sees the man shift on his feet. She tilts her head, looking at him properly. He's actually very handsome when he isn't so offensive. She watches him click open the small fold-up chair.
29:45 Speaker 04 I thought you'd at least offer me a throne, my lady.
29:48 Alice Levine? Despite herself, she lets out a laugh.
29:51 Speaker 04 Walter Heaton. All my mates call me Wally.
29:55 Alice Levine? She feels the warmth of his body as he sits down opposite. Takes in his chiseled jawline, his dark eyes. He takes out a packet of cigarettes, offers her one.
30:11 Speaker 04 Well, where should I begin?
30:14 Alice Levine? She looks at him with an intensity she didn't realise she possessed.
30:18 Speaker 04 I suppose with how my father is the source of all wrongs in the world?
30:22 Alice Levine? She smiles. She doesn't think she's ever met anyone as captivating as Wally Heaton. And she's determined to learn everything she can about him.
30:36 Matt Forde? I mean, you know, the guy's got an attitude problem, but he is a hottie. And it feels like, right now, that's more important.
30:41 Alice Levine? She's clearly got a bit of a crush here, and he's not just a beauty, but he's also a leader at the Islington Claimants Union. And so he's persuasive, he's got charisma, he's a great orator, and a real charm and sense of humour that has clearly caught her eye.
30:58 Matt Forde? And let's not forget that chiseled jawline.
31:05 Alice Levine? One month later, Tottenham, London. Rose dashes out of her studio apartment and on to Tottenham High Road. She's on her way to her parents, but she's already dreading the conversation. She's not sure she can bear another evening being told that she's wasting her life. Living it right now is hard enough. She's about to jump on the bus when she feels someone behind her squeeze her waist. She spins around to find Wally grinning at her. I was just on my way over. The two have been dating for a few weeks, but Rose struggles to keep up with his spontaneity. She loves his impulsiveness, his total commitment to his causes,
31:47 Alice Levine? even if she does disagree with some of his more radical politics. But now, she's already running late. She starts to tell him she's going to her folks when he cuts in. Well, I'm off to Ireland, and I wondered... He glances at his feet. Well, if you wanted to join me... In Ireland? When? She sees him grin. I'm leaving in an hour. Rose lets out a little laugh. It'll be romantic. It'll just be a couple of days. He takes her hand in his, pulls her into him.
32:22 Matt Forde? Rose, get out of this relationship. You cannot live like this. Plan a trip to Ireland well in advance, then we can both get excited and think about where we're gonna stay, and what we're gonna wear, and where we're gonna eat and drink.
32:32 Alice Levine? You're gonna be paying premiums for the flights, number one. Number two, all the best restaurants are gonna be booked up.
32:37 Matt Forde? Great. Let's just go to Ireland now and not be able to stay anywhere and just eat in Burger King all weekend.
32:42 Alice Levine? Rose whispers into his ear. Wally, I can't just up and leave. I'm supposed to be seeing... It's irresponsible. She gently thumbs his moustache, takes in his mischievous grin. She imagines her parents waiting in their large drawing room. She would much prefer to spend the weekend with Wally. She looks up as another red bus appears, but instead of jumping aboard, she hears herself tell him: Why not?
33:17 Alice Levine? The following day, she still can't quite believe she's in Ireland. She looks across at Wally as he pulls the car into what looks like a disused warehouse.
33:28 Alice Levine? Are you sure this is the right place? I thought we were heading to the causeway.
33:33 Alice Levine? I wanted to show you the real island. She looks at him in confusion. He grins. Come on. She climbs out of the car, takes his hand as he leads her down a warren of streets. The helicopter circling overhead whips her hair around her face.
33:51 Alice Levine? In the distance, she can hear crowds chanting. She feels an electricity in the air as men, women and children appear at her side until she's part of a giant collective mass of bodies cutting through the streets of Derry. A young woman on her left shouts from the top of her voice.
34:10 Speaker 04 We shall overcome! We shall overcome!
34:14 Alice Levine? She leans into Wally. Isn't this what they chant in the American Civil Rights Movement? She strains to look around as Wally spreads his arms. Rose, this is our Civil Rights Movement! Voting rights, employment rights, land rights, freedom itself! It's a fight against British imperialism! And it's happening on our own bloody doorstep!
34:39 Alice Levine? Rose stares at the people around her. They're people just like the ones she helps in Tottenham. Just asking for a fair shot at making their own lives better. She raises her fist in the air as she lets herself be carried by the mass of bodies as she too starts to chant.
34:57 Speaker 04 We shall overcome! We shall overcome! We shall overcome!
35:13 Alice Levine? January 1972, Tottenham, London. Wally stares in horror at the black and white images on Rose's grainy television set.
35:22 Speaker 04 British soldiers have opened fire on a civil rights march in London, Derry.
35:27 Alice Levine? He looks across at Rose in stunned silence.
35:30 Speaker 04 It is thought that 26 unarmed civilians have been shot, 14 of them dead.
35:36 Alice Levine? Rose grasps her hands on top of her head. It's a massacre. I can't believe... Wally, that could have been us. We were there just yesterday.
35:46 Speaker 04 The press are calling it Bloody Sunday.
35:50 Alice Levine? Wally has been a supporter of the Irish Republican Army for a few years. He's even managed to persuade Rose to start donating, but he's never seen violence like this.
36:02 Alice Levine? He feels Rose take his hand. He pulls it away and pours himself a beer. Perhaps we should cancel tonight. He's supposed to be meeting Rose's parents this evening, but after all this, he can't imagine sitting around a dinner table with Colonel Dugdale. He sees Rose shake her head. My parents are expecting us, Wally. I've promised. I keep cancelling. He glances at the television screen one last time before he grabs his moleskin jacket and heads out of the door with Rose.
36:37 Alice Levine? An hour later, he fidgets as Rose wraps the gold door knocker on her parents' five-story Georgian townhouse. He can't believe people still live like this.
36:48 Alice Levine? He raises his eyebrows at Rose as a maid answers the door.
36:53 Alice Levine? Inside, Rose's father steps forward to greet him. Guardsman Heaton, welcome. Can I get you a drink? Daddy, please. Wally isn't one for formalities, and I don't think we need another drink. But Wally interrupts. Whiskey, thanks. Double.
37:11 Matt Forde? Strong start.
37:12 Alice Levine? It's not a bar. Can you order a double in someone's house?
37:15 Matt Forde? Do you do any snacks, scratchings?
37:17 Alice Levine? I'm looking for a more casual menu, so can I just sit in the living room?
37:21 Matt Forde? Can I just ask, are you showing the football on in the lounge?
37:25 Alice Levine? Wally knows he's already drunk. He's been drinking since news of the massacre broke. He tells himself to take it slowly, but as he sips his whiskey, he catches sight of the telegraph on the table. His eyes flick across the headline. IRA gunman trigger battle. He hears himself blurt out.
37:46 Speaker 04 You've seen the news then? Well, the brave British boys are doing stellar work over there. Keeping the peace.
37:54 Matt Forde? Oh my god. Meeting your girlfriend's parents is stressful enough as it is. But when one of them is an army colonel on the side of the British Army and you're an IRA sympathizer. Hilarity ensues. Oh man.
38:08 Alice Levine? Wally snaps back.
38:09 Speaker 04 Peace? Putting fourteen bodies in caskets.
38:14 Alice Levine? He feels Rose whisper at his side. Wally, please. He looks at her in disbelief. Sees her shift in her seat.
38:22 Speaker 04 Daddy, many of those shot were trying to flee or help the wounded.
38:26 Alice Levine? He sees her parents exchange uncomfortable glances.
38:30 Speaker 04 Right. Shall we have dinner?
38:33 Alice Levine? He sees Rose glare at him, but he looks away. It's time to put this pompous fool in his place and make Rose see sense once and for all. A few seconds later. Rose feels a stab of panic. She knows Wally's up to something, but she can't work out what. She's starting to wonder if bringing him today was a mistake. But Wally gets to his feet abruptly. He'll be damned if he'll let Colonel Dugdale believe he's somehow protected from what's going on.
39:06 Speaker 04 I just have to make a call. Do you have a phone?
39:09 Alice Levine? She follows her parents into the dining room, where servants bring in steaming plates of roast beef, broccoli drowned in cream sauce, and decanted red wine. She knows her parents have tried to make an effort. She feels Wally reappear at her side. She steadies him slightly as he collapses into his chair and starts picking at the vegetables.
39:31 Speaker 04 Good to see a healthy appetite.
39:33 Alice Levine? She sees Wally glance at her.
39:35 Speaker 04 It's delicious. Thank you, Colonel.
39:38 Alice Levine? Rose looks at Wally. Feels herself relaxed. She sees him take a sip from his water glass. He looks like he's sobered up a bit.
39:47 Speaker 04 Colonel. Tell me about your service.
39:50 Alice Levine? In Borneo. Rose raises her eyebrows, just as her father starts to answer.
39:58 Alice Levine? She hears the door going.
40:01 Alice Levine? Rose stares out the window. A hearse and a procession of undertakers stand outside the house.
40:09 Speaker 04 What on earth?
40:11 Alice Levine? Sorry, Colonel. I called him. Wally grins gleefully. To take you away, Colonel. Feels different, doesn't it? When a casket turns up on your own doorstep. Rose pushes back her chair, shaking.
40:25 Speaker 04 Wally, stand up!
40:27 Alice Levine? But Wally doesn't move. I should be grateful to the Colonel, really. It's his money that's been propping up the IRA.
40:37 Matt Forde? This could not have gone worse.
40:39 Alice Levine? Oh my god! This is why we do a couples briefing before parent meets. We're not going to mention the money, we're not going to mention the IRA, we're not going to mention Dad's service, and also, most importantly of all, do not order an undertaker to take my dad away.
40:54 Matt Forde? That's true. That goes for whether you're going to Alice's parents' house or mine. They're always the rules.
41:01 Alice Levine? Her father stares at him.
41:03 Speaker 04 Excuse me?
41:05 Alice Levine? That's right. The little trust fund you gave her. It's been going to fund the brothers over the water.
41:11 Speaker 04 I refuse to be humiliated in my house, Rose.
41:15 Alice Levine? She's never seen her father so angry.
41:18 Speaker 04 This man is nothing more than a rude drunk. He doesn't love you. He just wants your money.
41:24 Alice Levine? She feels hot tears stream down her face.
41:27 Speaker 04 And I will not finance terrorists.
41:31 Alice Levine? Daddy, they're not terrorists. We're not. And Wally's upset. But her father refuses to let her speak.
41:37 Speaker 04 If you stay mixed up with this man and those dirty...
41:42 Alice Levine? Vile Irishman, I'll have to cut you off for good. Images of the violence she's witnessed just this morning flash across her mind. She can't understand how her father is being so callous, so cruel. She pulls her arm from her father's grip. Very well then. She's never been more convinced that she's on the right side of history and that her parents are in the wrong. She refuses to let her father's bigotry convince her otherwise. Rose takes Wally's hand, storms out of the dining room.
42:19 Alice Levine? If her father's going to cut her off, then she'll just have to find another way to get her hands on the money.
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43:34 Speaker 06 Ghosts aren't real. At least, that's what journalist Tristan Redmond always believed. Sure, odd things happen in his childhood bedroom, but ultimately, he shrugged them off.
43:44 Speaker 04 He discovered that he wasn't alone, that everyone who lived thereafter him also had bizarre experiences they couldn't explain. And it gets even weirder. It just so happens that his wife's great-grandmother was murdered in the house next door. Is this ghost somehow connected to her murder? He decides to go where no son-in-law should, digging up a cold case and asking questions that nobody wants answered. Like, could his wife's great-grandfather have gotten away with the perfect crime? This is a podcast about family secrets, overwhelming coincidence, and the things that come back to haunt us. For the best bingeable series like Ghost Story, listen to the Audible True Crime Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can get all episodes
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44:41 Alice Levine? June 1973, claymans' union, Tottenham, London.
44:48 Alice Levine? Rose bolts the door. Outside, her regulars queue in the street. Her father has followed through on his threat and cut her off. She turns, sees Wally pacing furiously. Can't believe your parents taking away your money so that they can blow their fortune on wine and fancy dresses. She wonders whether to share her next thought. She decides to throw caution to the wind. I mean, if they won't give it to us, we could just take it. I know they've got all sorts of stuff kicking about the country house in Devon. She can see from Wally's expression that he's not sure if she's serious. Steal from your parents?
45:32 Alice Levine? Rose feels Wally wrap his arms around her. Turns out I might have underestimated you, Rose Dugdale.
45:41 Alice Levine? Twelve hours later, Rose and Wally pull up behind a hedge on the winding country lane that leads to her parents' 600-acre estate. She sinks into her car seat as she sees her parents' Jaguar appear and drive past. And they're definitely at Epsom all day. Rose nods. Her mouth feels dry as she takes in the sprawling sandstone farmhouse. She climbs out of the car, chest thumping. She knows that her parents will never forgive her if she's caught, so she'll just have to make sure they never find out. The following day, Tottenham, London.
46:26 Alice Levine? Rose half-stirs as weak morning light filters through her cheap bedroom curtains. She feels Wally wrap an arm over her, smiles as he nuzzles into the back of her neck. I'll tell whoever it is to piss off. But Rose places a calming hand on his arm. Leave it. They'll go away. But the banging gets louder. Police! Wally and Rose share a wide-eyed, anxious look. The ammunition's box! Wally rushes into the living room and grabs the hard-metal case, packed for their next trip across the Irish Sea. He's shoving it under the sofa when uniformed police surge into the room. Police! What? What on earth is going on?
47:11 Speaker 04 Rose Dugdale, I'm arresting you on suspicion of burglary.
47:16 Alice Levine? Burglary? The man sneers.
47:18 Speaker 04 Don't play dumb, miss. We know everything. Your old man's phoned it in.
47:22 Alice Levine? Rose stands still, winded. He...he wouldn't. She turns to Wally, whose arms are outstretched as a female officer clamps handcuffs around his wrists. He laughs cruelly.
47:34 Speaker 04 Course they would! They'd do anything to protect their own wealth, even if it means shopping their own daughter!
47:41 Alice Levine? As a large cupboard is dragged open and the police sees bags of paintings, silverware and jewellery, she knows the game is up. Wally's right. Her dad has chosen money over her. He wants a fight, and she's going to give him one.
48:06 Alice Levine? 22nd of October, 1973, Exeter Crown Court. Rose sips water and tries not to meet her father's eye as he testifies in the witness stand. She thinks he looks older, smaller somehow, as he recounts coming home from the Epsom Derby to find Yati Farm ransacked and family heirlooms missing.
48:29 Matt Forde? I'm not usually on the side of aristocrats, but I feel sorry for him. This is his home, this is his stuff, it's his money, and yet she felt that it was hers to do with it what she wanted.
48:40 Alice Levine? It's sort of an entitlement off, isn't it? Because they're definitely entitled, but she is being entitled, thinking, "But Daddy, you can't tell on me. All I did was ransack the family's second home."
48:50 Matt Forde? To fund the IRA.
48:53 Alice Levine? She glances at her mother in the gallery, then turns her attention back to the judge as he asks her father if that will be all.
49:03 Speaker 04 Rose, I still love you. We used to be special friends, you and I.
49:10 Alice Levine? She hears someone snigger at her father's choice of words. She thinks her heart might crack.
49:18 Speaker 04 Remember how I used to read to you in my study? And when all this is over, you can still come home. You can always come home.
49:29 Alice Levine? It begs the question, which house?
49:31 Matt Forde? You know what? He might be an aristocrat, he might be regressive, but he loves his daughter.
49:40 Speaker 04 Daddy, I love you.
49:44 Speaker 04 If there were any danger threatening you, I would stand between you and that danger. But I, I hate everything you stand for.
49:59 Alice Levine? She hears the courtroom collectively gasp. Her father's eyes fall to his feet as he shuffles back to his seat.
50:12 Alice Levine? Two hours later, Rose makes her way back into the courtroom, Wally at her side. They stand as the foreman steps forward.
50:22 Speaker 04 Rose Dugdale, on the charge of burglary, do you find her guilty or not guilty?
50:29 Alice Levine? Guilty.
50:30 Speaker 04 And Walter Heaton, on the charge of handling stolen goods, do you find him guilty or not guilty?
50:39 Alice Levine? Guilty.
50:42 Alice Levine? Rose grasps the wooden table in front of her to steady herself. In finding me guilty, you have turned me from an intellectual recalcitrant into a freedom fighter. I know no finer title: power to the people. Rose watches the judge eye Wally with disdain.
51:02 Speaker 04 Mr. Walter Heaton, I sentence you to six years in prison.
51:08 Alice Levine? Rose folds like she's been punched in the gut. Six years. She braces herself to face her own fate, but the judge adopts a softer tone.
51:20 Speaker 04 I think the risk that you will ever again commit burglary or any dishonesty is extremely remote.
51:29 Matt Forde? Did you hear what she just said?
51:31 Alice Levine? Rose stares at him as he hands her a two-year suspended sentence.
51:39 Alice Levine? Her shock swiftly changes to outrage as Wally is led away. Class injustice, if I may say so. A poor man goes away for six years on a lesser charge, and a rich girl gets two years suspended?
51:55 Matt Forde? But also, thank you, Your Honour, I will reflect on your words. Wally, I will visit.
52:01 Alice Levine? She's almost definitely right, but Wally did also have a rap sheet.
52:05 Matt Forde? Oh, so here previous?
52:06 Alice Levine? You've got previous.
52:07 Matt Forde? Okay, so it's not all about class injustice.
52:10 Alice Levine? Rose scowls at her father, at the relief on his face, then back at the judge. He has no idea what a mistake he's just made. Now Wally's gone, she's going to travel to Ireland, cut ties with her parents once and for all, and show everyone what she's really capable of.
52:39 Speaker 03 For decades, two legendary brands fought for the hearts of American bikers: Indian Motorcycle and Harley-Davidson. The battle looked a lot like Coke versus Pepsi or Ford versus Chevy, but tastes changed and Indian didn't adapt fast enough. The icon all but died. Then came the Con Men, the Dreamers, a string of spectacular failures that kept Indian in the grave, until one company finally got it right. This is the story of an improbable revival and the reignition of an old rivalry. Hey, I'm David Brown, the host of the podcast Business Wars, and every season we bring you the true stories behind the companies that shape our world. Indian's new owners are going all in, but an existential crisis looms. Can Indian and Harley recruit enough younger riders to survive?
53:22 Speaker 03 Make sure to follow Business Wars wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Business Wars early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. You stepped out for your morning jog, except it's not your usual morning jog. You started listening to an epic sci-fi book on Audible. Thirty chapters later, you've accidentally run a half marathon. You lost track of how far you've run, somewhere just past the city limits. You can't stop. You have to find out what happens next.
53:53 Speaker 03 Then it's over. The universe seems bigger. You feel different. You feel like you have no idea where you are. Audible: Stories That Speak to You.
54:06 Alice Levine? From Wondery and Samus, that audio, this is the first episode in our series Rose Dugdale.
54:12 Matt Forde? A quick note about our dialogue. In most cases, we can't know exactly what was said, but all our dramatizations are based on historical research.
54:19 Alice Levine? If you'd like to know more about this story, you can read The Woman Who Stole Vermeer by Anthony Amor, Airs Rebel Vigilante Bomber by Sean O'Driscoll. You can listen to the BBC Northern Ireland podcast Assume Nothing, and you can watch the film Baltimore.
54:36 Alice Levine? British Scandal is hosted by me, Alice Levine.
54:39 Matt Forde? And me, Matt Ford.
54:40 Alice Levine? Written by Lydia Marchant. Additional writing by Alice Levine and Matt Ford. Our story editor is James Maniac. Sound design by Peregrine Andrews. For Samizdat, our producer is Chika Ayers. Our assistant producer is Redsey Bernard. Our senior producers are Jo Sykes and Dasha Lisitzina. For Wondry, our series producer is Theodora Laloudis, and our managing producer is Rachel Sibley. Executive producers for Wondry are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones, and Marshall Louie.
55:21 Speaker 06 Hi, I'm Kenya Barris. And I'm Malcolm Gladwell. We're back for season two of our Audible original podcast, The Unusual Suspects. We're bringing you fresh, new conversations from guests like Anderson Paak, David Zedarius, Ryan Howard, Richel, Amy Sheldon, and many more. Sign up for a free trial to Audible to listen to season two in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. Journalist Tristan Redman goes where no son-in-law should ever go, deep into his wife's family history, digging up the cold case of who murdered her great-grandmother. Because, I should mention, he thinks the murderer might actually be the beloved family patriarch. For the best binge-watch series like Ghost Story, listen to the Audible True Crime Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.
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