Pod Insights British Scandal Lord Haw-Haw: Germany Calling | Radio Reich | 2 About this episode Under Goebbels' wing, William becomes Lord Haw-Haw. Night after night he broadcasts Hitler’s message into Britain. But one Brit is having none of it: Winston Churchill.
Do you have a suggestion for a scandal you would like us to cover? Or perhaps you have a question you would like to ask our hosts? Email us at [email protected]
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Transcript 7,898 words · 14 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Alice Levine? Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of British Scandal ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.
0:13 Alice Levine? Right, Matt, you ready?
0:14 Matt Forde? Right, yeah, I've just got to do this, sorry. Right. Diary of a CEO. Never had a file of facts and I bet he's not even been a COO.
0:23 Alice Levine? What are you doing?
0:25 Matt Forde? Oh, it's called propaganda. What you do is you attack your opponents and it demoralises them and then their supporters come over to your side.
0:32 Alice Levine? Yeah, I've heard of propaganda. Don't do that.
0:35 Matt Forde? Oh, no, it works. It's fine. Parenting hell. They don't even have kids. They don't even like kids. They hate your kids.
0:41 Alice Levine? I think you're going to get sued.
0:43 Matt Forde? If you say it's propaganda and it's all lies, honestly, it's a loophole. Off-menu. They don't even like good food. They eat out of tins. I've seen them.
0:51 Alice Levine? Okay, I think I get it now. This actually sounds quite fun. Maybe I'll have a go.
0:54 Matt Forde? Yeah, just pick some big podcasts and slag them off.
0:57 Alice Levine? Okay, okay. The rest is history. More like, the rest is, can I have a nap, please? That is so old, that stuff.
1:06 Matt Forde? This is great. Keep going.
1:07 Alice Levine? Okay.
1:09 Alice Levine? Miss me? With Makita, Oliver and Lily Allen, yeah. No, I don't miss you. I don't even know you.
1:16 Matt Forde? You're warming up. You're warming up. This is great.
1:18 Alice Levine? All right. This is the one. My dad wrote a porno. Do you even have a dad or are you an orphan?
1:27 Matt Forde? Alice, that's horrible. It just made us all sad now.
1:33 Alice Levine? Okay, I'm just going to probably just practise on my own.
1:36 Matt Forde? Yeah.
1:40 Matt Forde? Dawn, May the 4th, 1945, Hamburg.
1:47 Matt Forde? William clutches the leather seat as the Mercedes swerves around another crater.
1:53 Matt Forde? Through the bullet-scarred rear windscreen, Hamburg burns. A wall of flame and smoke blistering the horizon.
2:01 Speaker 02 Our contacts in Denmark will get you to Sweden, but we must cross the border by nightfall. And if the Danes refuse?
2:10 Matt Forde? William stares at the SS officer in hope, but the man remains silent. Instead, he leans forward and adjusts the military radio.
2:20 Matt Forde? Through the static comes the news.
2:23 Speaker 03 Berlin has fallen. The Red Army now controls the capital. All units are ordered to...
2:30 Speaker 02 God for damn it!
2:32 Matt Forde? The officer switches off the radio. William's hands shake as he takes another pull from the near-empty bottle of cognac. The car engine whines as they weave through the burnt-out tanks and shattered artillery guns that once defended the city. Columns of broken and bandaged Wehrmacht soldiers clog the road. Men that William once praised as invincible. The Mercedes skids onto a farm track. William drips the seat as the car bumps along the dirt road. As he peers through the dark haze, he spots something in the distant fog.
3:07 Speaker 02 What the hell is that?
3:10 Matt Forde? He feels his stomach lurch as lights appear and a low guttural rumble starts to fill the air. The officer flings open the car door.
3:20 Speaker 02 British tanks! Get out! Radfordsey Woods!
3:25 Matt Forde? William almost falls out of the car as he stumbles into the thick, cold mud. He fixes his eyes on the forest ahead. Somewhere beyond those trees lies Denmark. Then Sweden. Neutral territory. A chance to vanish. But behind him, British voices ring out. Voices he once mocked with such confidence.
3:48 Speaker 02 Lay down your weapons! Surrender! You are now prisoners of war!
3:54 Matt Forde? William looks back as he stumbles through the mud. The SS officers raise their guns. Stark silhouettes against the burning city.
4:03 Speaker 03 Für das Vaterland!
4:06 Matt Forde? Their pistols bark, once, twice.
4:11 Matt Forde? Then the British rifles answer.
4:14 Matt Forde? Both men jerk like broken puppets and crumple into the mud.
4:19 Matt Forde? William runs, branches whipping his face. His scarf throbs with each gasping breath. The voice that terrorized Britain now rasps desperate prayers as justice closes in. Germany burns behind him. Denmark lies ahead. And William knows, he has to make that border. Because if he doesn't, he's a dead man.
4:50 Speaker 04 With the Spark Cash Plus card from Capital One, you earn unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase. And you get big purchasing power, so your business can spend more and earn more. Stephen, Brandon and Bruno, the business owners of Sand Cloud, reinvested their 2% cash back to help build the company's retail presence. Capital One, what's in your wallet? Find out more at CapitalOne.com/SparkCashPlus. Terms apply.
5:18 Speaker 05 PrizePix packs are here. Rip digital packs and get real basketball, football and Pokemon cards on PrizePix packs. Available now nationwide. Once you see your pool, you have a choice to sell back instantly for real cash or ship at home. Cash from your sale will immediately be added to your PrizePix balance. It's just another way to run your game. New users, download the PrizePix app today and use code WONDERY to get $25 instantly in bonus packs when you buy your first $5 pack. PrizePix, run your game. 18 plus to eligible areas. Terms apply. Click responsibly.
5:51 Matt Forde? From Wondery, I'm Matt Ford.
5:53 Alice Levine? And I'm Alice Levine.
5:55 Matt Forde? And this is British Scandal.
6:09 Matt Forde? Alice, I'm not going to ask you whether you're warming to William Joyce. We've been doing this show for four years now. And if there's one thing I can say in your favour, is that you're not always a fan of Nazis.
6:19 Alice Levine? No, not always, no.
6:21 Matt Forde? But I am interested in what you think is driving William.
6:25 Alice Levine? An interesting fellow is William. So obviously, if we go way back to the early years, he's Irish, he's an outsider. He's kind of pushed to the fringes. He's got genuine feelings of anger at the state of the country after the huge sacrifices made by ordinary people during World War One. And also, there's something personal about him that we see a lot in British Scandal. He is a small, inadequate man. And he's found this movement. He's found a club that gives him a veneer of power.
6:54 Matt Forde? Yes, and at the end of the last episode, he's decided to flee to Germany, partly because he's lost hope in Britain, partly because if he stays, he's at risk of arrest and internment. So do you think those feelings of inadequacy are going to follow him around? Or do you think he would just be able to shake them off and find his feet in the farther land?
7:13 Alice Levine? Yeah, has he done the work? Has he done the therapy he needs to get over those initial years? I guess it depends whether the Nazis will accept him as one of them. Also, might not seem very important but is: Have you seen him work a crowd, baby? He is the greatest fascist showman, oh boy, he's got the razzmatazz. So this could be quite the few years for him, although, and I really hope that I'm not providing any spoilers here, we do know that ultimately the Second World War didn't go Hitler's way.
7:41 Matt Forde? Okay, news to some of us, arguably no point in listening on, but do, because, and I should warn you at the start here, William gets very impassioned. So impassioned that he ends up with a very sore throat. And I have basically gone method. So apologies for my sore throat, it ends up actually being very helpful. This is episode two, Radio Reich.
8:08 Matt Forde? Five years earlier, September 1939, Berlin.
8:15 Matt Forde? William tugs at his shirt collar as he steps onto the platform at Anhalter-Bahnhof train station. He squeezes Margaret's hand in excitement, takes in the Iron Eagle insignia pinned to the soldiers' black SS uniforms. His fingers brush the business card in his inner pocket, his sole contact in Berlin's Ministry of Propaganda. Seeing the enormous red, white and black swastika banners festooning the station, William catches his breath. He's never been more certain of his decision to leave England. He pulls Margaret into the flow of Berliners along Unterr den Linden.
8:56 Matt Forde? An hour later, William stands before the Preußenhof Restaurant, double checks the address. He takes in the white cloth tables glowing underneath strong lights. High-ranking party officials and socialites dine al fresco beneath the linden trees, their laughter mixing with the clink of fine crystal. William scans the crowd for his contact, until he spots him at a table tucked away in the corner. He pulls Margaret across the room to a tall, immaculately dressed man with a razor-sharp jawline. Christian Bauer. They'd been friends in London, before he'd been kicked out for spying. He extends a hand to William.
9:41 Matt Forde? William, mein Freund! The man stands to greet Margaret, his lips lingering a moment too long on her hand. And this vision of... English beauty. William's shoulders relax as he takes a seat. He finally feels like he's arrived. He twists his napkin beneath the table, as Bauer lights a cigarette. So, you crazy English man, what are you thinking of doing now that you are in Germany, William?
10:12 Speaker 02 Fascisty things!
10:13 Matt Forde? Yeah, go to a fash bash, make some fash cash. You know, you guys seem to be having a good time. William's top lip prickles with fresh sweat. He pauses while a waiter pours them wine. Well, I was rather hoping you'd suggest something. Bauer checks his watch. His smile tightens. I'm afraid your timing could have been better. He looks over his shoulder, leans in, lowering his voice. We have hours, not days, before the Führer makes his move. Poland will not submit. France and Britain will not stand idle. War is inevitable.
10:56 Matt Forde? William feels a nervous thrill course through him. Bauer takes a long sip of his riesling. When war does come, you will both be interred, of course. Enemy aliens in wartime. What else can we do? William looks at Bauer in confusion, as his laughter explodes across the table. Ha ha! Your faces! You're funny! You're so funny! You're English! William smooths his napkin, tries to compose himself, but Bauer continues. Seriously, though, war is war. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that in the current circumstances, there is no longer anything I can do to help.
11:37 Matt Forde? William feels Margaret's hand nervously finding his under the table. He clears his throat.
11:45 Matt Forde? About the citizenship that was promised, the guarantee to work. Ah, yeah, that was six months ago, William. Things are different now. Bauer glances at his watch again. Scheiße, duty calls. Good luck in Berlin. William stares in horror as Bauer stands and disappears into the night. He glances at Margaret, sees his own fears reflected in her face. They can't return to England, certainly not now that they've run. But if he can't prove his worth to the Nazi government, he might well have just traded an English prison cell for a German one.
12:35 Matt Forde? A week later, Reich Labour Ministry, Berlin. Margaret sits across from an employment clerk. She opens her handbag for a handkerchief, glimpses her final twenty Reichs marks before delicately dabbing at her forehead. She needs this job. William's failed to secure any work or contacts, and if she can't find a government foothold soon, they're at real risk of becoming destitute or worse. The clerk adjusts her wire-brimmed glasses as she studies Margaret's application, her mouth pinched in disapproval.
13:14 Speaker 02 A British subject expects to work in a Reich ministry with access to internal documents?
13:21 Matt Forde? Margaret's heart sinks. She's seen this expression a hundred times this week. She rises, knowing there's nothing left to say. She storms across the office and pushes open the door. In the lobby, William springs up from his bench as she appears. How did it go? His hopeful expression crumples as she gives a tiny shake of her head. Across the street, she spies the elegant facade of the Continental Hotel. God, I need a cup of tea.
13:53 Alice Levine? I hope they pack teabags from home because you know it's going to be a crap cup of tea, no offence. No offence to the Continental Hotel, which has a fantastic reputation, but a cup of tea abroad.
14:05 Matt Forde? She straightens her spine, lifts her chin, and marches towards the entrance. William hurries after her. As they make for the tea room, a familiar voice cuts through the murmur of conversation. Margaret? William? Good heavens! They turn to find Dorothy Eckersley, their eccentric socialite friend from countless B U F gatherings, lounging at a corner table, feeding her dashoned bits of cake. Dorothy, how extraordinary to find you here! She looks them up and down. You both look absolutely exhausted! But there is kindness in Dorothy's eyes.
14:45 Matt Forde? I'm meeting someone, Hans Shermer from the Foreign Ministry, Cultural Affairs, absolutely vital work. You must join us! Margaret and William glance down at their clothes. They feel dowdy, out of place. Dorothy, we're hardly... I mean, that is, we're not really dressed for... Dorothy's already waving away their protests with her cigarette. Nonsense! We're at war, darling. Who has time for appearances? She leans closer, cigarette smoke curling between them. Besides, right now Hans is particularly interested in British perspectives. A bald man in an expensive suit approaches their table, his eyes sharp with interest.
15:30 Matt Forde? Hans, darling, look who I found! The Joyces from our London gatherings! William was absolutely electric at B U F events, such understanding of the common man. The masses simply adored him! Margaret looks at William. A glint appears in her eye. She leans forward. My husband has a gift. The working class don't just listen, they trust him. She kicks William under the table, urging him to jump in.
16:00 Speaker 02 Yes, that's right. Um, I know how the British worker thinks, and what makes him angry, what makes him doubt his own government.
16:08 Matt Forde? Margaret sees Shermer's eyes narrow, the faintest smile touching the corner of his mouth.
16:14 Speaker 02 The Ministry of Propaganda has been seeking to strengthen its voice in Britain.
16:19 Matt Forde? His hand moves to his jacket pocket, takes out a fountain pen. The ink bleeds against the white, fine linen napkin as he writes.
16:27 Speaker 02 Tomorrow at nine o'clock, we may have need for someone with your strengths.
16:33 Matt Forde? As he stands to leave, Margaret glances at William, sees the sparkle back in his eyes. She runs a finger across the napkin, tracing the words written there. This is the foot in the door they've been praying for, and she's going to make damn sure nothing, not even war itself, gets in her way.
17:00 Matt Forde? The following day, Reich Broadcasting House, Berlin. William's hit by the thick smoke-filled air as he enters the recording studio. He pushes away thoughts of what will happen if he fails this audition. Instead, tells himself to focus. He catches Margaret's eager expression through the glass.
17:21 Speaker 03 Whenever you're ready, Herr Joyce. Drei, zwei, eins.
17:30 Matt Forde? The red light blinks on. William opens his mouth, but his throat feels dry. He tries to speak, but the words refuse to come out. My, my fellow Britons. His voice sounds alien, a child's squeak echoing back through his headphones. Hear the truth about?
17:51 Alice Levine? We've all been there, right, Matt? I mean, every time I public speak, the first sentence is like, "Welcome." It's one of those.
17:58 Matt Forde? Makes some, like, quick ad-lib joke about something that's just happened. You're like, "I've come back to Gary's after this, haven't we?" Anyway, the nominee is for Nurse of the Year. The words swim on the page. Sweat drips onto the script, smearing the ink. The truth, the truth, the truth. Through the glass, he sees disappointment settling over the control booth.
18:25 Speaker 02 Stop, stop, this isn't fucking.
18:29 Matt Forde? But before he can get up, Margaret bursts through the control room door. A bottle of schnapps in her hand like a lifeline. Two quick shots burn down his throat. He closes his eyes, lets the warmth spread. Margaret whispers in his ear. Burn the place down. Show them what happens when they look down their noses at men like you. He feels something shift. The studio melts away and he's back at the B U F rallies. That familiar electricity crackling through his blood. The microphone isn't a threat anymore. It's a weapon. His eyes snap open. He touches his script and reads.
19:09 Speaker 02 Germany calling. Germany calling.
19:13 Matt Forde? Through the glass, the director sits forward. His interest piqued. Orders his engineer to start recording. The red light flashes on.
19:23 Speaker 02 Tonight, I speak to you from Berlin. To you, the people of Britain. Not your lords and masters in their London clubs. Not your bankers counting their war profits. I speak to you. The miners, the factory workers, the shop girls. The ones they send to die in their wars while they sip champagne.
19:45 Matt Forde? William feels power unfurling in his chest. Through the glass, the control room is transfixed.
19:52 Speaker 02 They tell you Germany is your enemy. But who is it that keeps your wages low? Who sends your children to bed hungry? Who lives in luxury while you're scratching the dirt? Look to your masters in Westminster before you point fingers across the channel.
20:09 Alice Levine? Oh, this is eerily familiar to now, isn't it? I mean, it's chilling, but you can also imagine how some people would find that a very rousing, very compelling speech. I just can't believe how there are stock phrases there that are the stock phrases that people use today.
20:25 Matt Forde? It's incredible, the parallels with people we can think about in the modern era. But also, there's always going to be a section of the population, particularly when a country is going through economic difficulty, that are susceptible to this idea, that actually there's something else going on. That, "Hold on a minute, the guy we're being told is bad might actually be alright." And the people that we think are broadly protecting our interests, maybe they're the real problem. And it's terrifying how effective that sort of messaging continues to be. His voice drops lower, intimate as a lover's whisper. "I know you. I am you. And by the time I'm finished, all of Britain will know the truth."
21:11 Matt Forde? The red light blinks off. Silence floods the studio. William realises his hands have stopped shaking. The control room erupts. He sees the director making an excited animated phone call. William looks at Margaret through the glass, her smile fierce with pride. He won't waste this chance, not now he's found his voice. It's time to show these Germans exactly what William Joyce can do.
21:47 Matt Forde? Six months later, Reich Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda, Berlin.
21:55 Matt Forde? Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels stands before his radio monitors, jaw tight.
22:02 Speaker 03 "We shall fight them on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields and in the streets."
22:12 Matt Forde? Churchill's voice fills his marble office. His leg throbs in its caliper as Churchill's speech gains in power. He slams his fist on the table. He'd promised British resolve would crumble after Dunkirk. But Churchill's election is regalvanising morale across the Channel, and the Fuhrer isn't happy.
22:34 Speaker 02 "Switch stations. I can't bear to hear this man's voice any longer."
22:40 Speaker 03 We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be.
22:45 Matt Forde? Goebbels' knuckles whiten around his cane. Verdamm!
22:51 Speaker 03 We shall go on to the end. We shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength.
22:57 Matt Forde? Change it again!
23:00 Matt Forde? The wineglass shatters against the marble wall before he realises he's thrown it. Then a different voice cuts through the static. Low, melodious, intimate, unlike anything he's heard before.
23:14 Speaker 03 And what does Churchill offer you? Grand words? Empty speeches?
23:21 Matt Forde? The junior officer reaches for the dial. Vet!
23:25 Speaker 03 While your children go hungry, while your homes burn, he stands in Parliament, playing the British Bulldog.
23:33 Matt Forde? Goebbels limps closer to the radio.
23:37 Speaker 03 He talks of fighting on the beaches, but it's not his sons who'll die there.
23:42 Matt Forde? Who is this?
23:44 Speaker 02 The new Englishman here, Minster. William Joyce.
23:47 Matt Forde? Goebbels leans forward. Through the static, William's voice drips with class hatred.
23:53 Speaker 03 They'll send you to die for their empire. Your children will starve for their prize. And Churchill? He'll finish his brandy, light another cigar, and write speeches about your noble sacrifice.
24:07 Matt Forde? Goebbels glances at the grandfather clock. Nearly midnight in Burghstess Garden. Which, as we all know, was Hitler's headquarters in the Alps. Mein Führer. Yes, I know the hour. Churchill's speech today. Yes, I know. But I found something better. Listen. He holds the phone to the radio. William's voice seeps through the line.
24:34 Speaker 03 Ask yourself, who is the real enemy of the working man?
24:40 Matt Forde? Goebbels smiles as he hears Hitler's breathing change.
24:44 Speaker 02 I want everything on Joyce. Every speech, every detail. We're going to make him the voice that tears Britain apart.
24:55 Matt Forde? Through the radio, William's voice continues its deadly work. Goebbels settles back, closes his eyes. He's going to bottle it all and use this Englishman to drip poison into every British ear until their resolve rots from within.
25:21 Speaker 06 Confidence, it's listening to your gut. It's moving forward even when the path ahead is unclear. For nearly 160 years, Pacific Life has helped people keep their promises, building confidence for generations. Whether you're confident in your financial future or just beginning to envision it, we're here to help. Ask a financial professional how. Pacific Life, the power of a promise. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska, and in New York, Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona.
25:51 Speaker 07 Journalist Tristan Redman goes where no son-in-law should ever go. Deep into his wife's family history, digging up the cold case of who murdered her great-grandmother. Because, I should mention, he thinks the murderer might actually be the beloved family patriarch. For the best binge-watch series like Ghost Story, listen to the Audible True Crime Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.
26:19 Matt Forde? A few months later, Reich Broadcasting House, Berlin.
26:25 Matt Forde? William settles into the leather seat of his Reich-issued Mercedes, smiles at the news suggesting the Luftwaffe will have air superiority over Britain within weeks. Six months ago, he and Margaret had little hope of scraping by. Now, under Goebbels' wing, his voice is starting to reach British homes each night.
26:51 Matt Forde? The receptionist's heels click across the marble-lined reception floor to greet him as he enters the building. She presents him with a wooden box and the day's ministry-approved script.
27:01 Speaker 02 Cuban cigars from Dr Gerbils himself, in recognition of your mounting success.
27:09 Matt Forde? He's been so busy, he hasn't seen Margaret in weeks. But his relationship with Gerbils is as strong as ever.
27:17 Matt Forde? He sidesteps workmen mounting a framed photograph on the stairs. His own image captured in profile at the microphone. Commanding, assured, a voice of authority. When he spots a cluster of radio staff huddled around British newspapers, their laughter dies as they see him.
27:37 Matt Forde? He strides over, grabs the paper from one of their hands. British, fresh from Fleet Street. His stomach drops as he reads the headline.
27:48 Speaker 02 Lord Ho-Ho.
27:51 Matt Forde? For a moment, he can't breathe as he reads.
27:53 Speaker 02 A mysterious broadcaster with his Ho-Ho accent. Some fat elderly Shakespearean actor, teaching elocution at a pathetic German institute.
28:07 Alice Levine? Ouch, that is a burn, although, he has worked very hard at that accent. So in a way, the fact that they think he is a Shakespearean actor, Ho-Ho or not, maybe you take that as a plus.
28:18 Matt Forde? Ho-Ho is basically a way of describing a particular type of affected posh speech.
28:27 Alice Levine? Haughty.
28:27 Matt Forde? Haughty, haughty, haughty. Ho-Ho. I guess that's like the sound they make, isn't it?
28:32 Alice Levine? Yeah, I mean, you're just being a posh person, yeah.
28:37 Alice Levine? It's sort of like, how would you speak if you had cheeks full of foie gras?
28:42 Matt Forde? Even here, thousands of miles away, the British mock him. His colleagues avert their eyes as his director's voice cuts across the studio at Tannoy.
28:53 Speaker 02 Thirty seconds until we're live, Herr Joyce.
28:57 Matt Forde? He hurries into the recording booth as the red light blinks on.
29:01 Speaker 02 Germany calling, Germany.
29:04 Matt Forde? But he can't see through the red mist. He stops. Dead air hangs heavy in the booth.
29:11 Alice Levine? Oh god, the emergency tape's gonna hit in.
29:13 Matt Forde? In his earpiece, he hears the director.
29:16 Speaker 02 Herr Joyce.
29:18 Matt Forde? Through the glass, he sees the director gesturing frantically, the engineer panicking. William meets their eyes without flinching. No more hiding. He tears up his script, allows the pieces to flutter to the floor.
29:35 Speaker 02 For months now, you've listened to my voice. You've mocked my accent, made fun of my manner, christened me with childish nicknames. Your newspapers speculate, who is this traitor who speaks to Britons so? Well, tonight, I shall tell you.
29:55 Matt Forde? William hesitates. He knows the British authorities still want him locked up. If he continues now, he'll alert them to where he is and what he's doing. Lose the anonymity that's protected him for the last six months. But he won't be mocked or belittled any longer.
30:13 Alice Levine? Maybe just put up with the mocking and the belittling.
30:16 Matt Forde? He's proud of the man he is, and he's got nothing to hide. It's time for the masks to come off.
30:22 Alice Levine? Oh god.
30:24 Matt Forde? He takes a breath.
30:25 Speaker 02 I am William Joyce, and I left England not in fear of war, but in pursuit of truth.
30:34 Alice Levine? This isn't about being proud of the man he is. This isn't about wanting to put an end to the mockery. This is ego. He wants everybody to know who he is because he wants the glory.
30:46 Matt Forde? His knuckles whiten as he grips the desk.
30:49 Speaker 02 You see, I know them, these lords and ladies who send your sons to die. Their newspapers spoon-feed you lies while your children starve.
30:59 Matt Forde? William's voice rises, stronger now.
31:02 Speaker 02 Your parliament, nothing but a gentleman's club where old men trade your lives like poker chips. Your precious class system, invisible chains that bind you while they whisper, "Know your place."
31:19 Matt Forde? Silence fills the booth. The enormity of what he's done dawns on William. Then the director's voice cuts through.
31:28 Speaker 03 Bravo, William!
31:32 Matt Forde? The gallery erupts, not polite applause, but a roar of triumph. There's no turning back now. He will never be silenced or ridiculed again. In the glass, William catches his reflection. A glimpse of what he was always meant to be. Lord Horhor.
31:52 Alice Levine? He's reclaimed it already, within seconds.
31:54 Matt Forde? He'll make them choke on that name.
31:57 Matt Forde? Every weakness in Britain's armour, every crack in its foundation, every bitter resentment he's nursed, they're all his to expose now. He'll write his own scripts, speak his own truth, and night by night, broadcast by broadcast, turn their sneering joke into their worst nightmare.
32:22 Alice Levine? This is a beautifully textbook example of the fragile male ego. Aggravated, enraged, inflamed.
32:31 Matt Forde? August 1940, Chartwell, Kent, 1 AM.
32:37 Matt Forde? Churchill's private secretary Brendan Bracken picks through the night's telegrams, checking his watch between each code and message.
32:45 Alice Levine? Tell me about Brendan Bracken, purely so I can say Brendan Bracken.
32:48 Matt Forde? Brendan Bracken has a great name. He was arguably Churchill's closest friend, went on to serve in his cabinet as Minister for Information, and like William Joyce, was Irish with a complicated relationship with his mother country, but also was the subject of rumours because his relationship with Churchill was so close that actually he was Churchill's illegitimate son.
33:11 Alice Levine? Oh, gosh. Love Brendan Bracken's backstory. Okay, spin off.
33:17 Matt Forde? His third cup of cold tea sits forgotten beside him as he works. As Churchill's most trusted confidant, he's promised to be available at any hour, whatever the cost. He's even sold his London house, splitting his time between Chartwell and Downing Street. Brendan stifles a yawn, glances at the clock, closes the folder of sanitised airfield damage reports, when laughter echoes down the hallway. He shuffles along the corridor to find three secretaries huddled around a wireless, barely suppressing their giggles. Then a voice, cultured, mocking, utterly unlike the BBC's careful neutrality, cuts through.
33:58 Speaker 03 Your women are so frightened of our bombs, they're having their hats made of tin. Perhaps they think German steel will become fashionable in London.
34:07 Matt Forde? Rather late for the BBC, isn't it? It's Lord Ho-Ho, Mr. Bracken.
34:13 Alice Levine? So nice to see Secretary One again, from, I think, series four, fourteen, twenty-nine, thirty-eight, thirty-nine and forty-two of British Scandal. She's always around, isn't she?
34:26 Matt Forde? She is. She goes out with that copper who shows up in the last series.
34:30 Alice Levine? What's going on here then, son?
34:33 Matt Forde? No matter what decade, always the same.
34:37 Matt Forde? The girls exchange knowing looks. Everyone listens to him. My sister's factory in London passes around at broadcast times. He's very funny. Bracken turns to the second secretary.
34:49 Speaker 02 Oh, yes, sir. Everyone in my street listens. My neighbour even writes down the bits that...
34:54 Matt Forde? Bracken reaches for the telephone.
34:56 Speaker 02 James, sorry to wake you. Is that BBC monitoring? I need Ho Ho's listening figures too. Now if possible.
35:05 Matt Forde? He waits through the clicks and words of the connecting line. But as the voice reads out the numbers, the blood drains from Bracken's face. Are you okay, Mr. Bracken? He doesn't answer.
35:19 Matt Forde? A few minutes later, Bracken knocks on Churchill's bathroom door. The familiar scent of Cuban cigars seeps through the gap beneath. He takes a breath, taps again.
35:31 Speaker 02 Enter.
35:33 Matt Forde? Steam billows as Bracken pushes open the door to Churchill's bathroom office. The PM reclines in his bath like a walrus, surrounded by floating maps of the south coast.
35:45 Alice Levine? Like a walrus is a lot.
35:48 Speaker 02 Unless you bring news that Goering's left wiffer has suddenly developed an allergy to flying.
35:54 Matt Forde? Churchill doesn't look up from his papers. Water sloshes as he reaches for another document.
36:00 Speaker 02 So I need to discuss Lord Ho Ho.
36:03 Matt Forde? Churchill looks at him bemused. A smile on his face.
36:07 Speaker 02 Eden does a splendid impression. Germany calling. Well, I've just received his listening figures. He's getting nine million listens a night, sir.
36:18 Alice Levine? Bloody hell, even in a time when everyone's listening to the radio, nine million! And Secretary 12's sisters listening, so he's getting to the people that he wants to reach. This isn't politicos and people, you know, around the halls of power that are listening. This is real people on the street, hearing what he's got to say.
36:39 Matt Forde? Bracken watches as Churchill puts down his cigar.
36:43 Speaker 02 Absolute bunkum, Bracken. Nine million. Impossible.
36:48 Matt Forde? Bracken slaps the BBC figures onto Churchill's bath tray. His listening figures are over half that of the BBC's. And he's one man. He pulls out a transcript. "While your boys drowned at Dunkirk, Churchill quaffed champagne." Bracken watches Churchill's expression darken.
37:05 Alice Levine? Now I'm picturing a walrus quaffing champagne.
37:08 Matt Forde? I bet there's a hipster out there with that as a tattoo.
37:10 Alice Levine? I was just thinking that. It's definitely a hipster tattoo.
37:14 Matt Forde? A walrus with a monocle, quaffing champagne.
37:17 Alice Levine? Definitely. Top hat? Will you picture me in the top hat?
37:18 Matt Forde? Definitely, yeah. If you've got that as a tattoo, get in touch. [email protected] . Last week, a munitions factory in Manchester closed after he named it as a target. We know who he is, sir. A man called William Joyce. Churchill is silent. But when he finally speaks, his voice is dangerously quiet.
37:40 Speaker 02 I want everything. Birth records, school reports, army service, his favourite flavour of jelly. Silence him, Bracken. Jam the bloody signals if you need to. Anything. He needs to be stopped.
37:56 Matt Forde? Churchill's hard stare fixes on Bracken. Bracken nods as he leaves Churchill's bathroom and reaches for the telephone. The first of many calls tonight. Because this isn't just about catching a traitor anymore. It's about protecting something far more precious than any factory or airfield. The British people's unwavering spirit.
38:26 Matt Forde? October 1940. Stalag-loft 3D prisoner of war camp outside Berlin. William steps from his Mercedes into the biting October rain. Towers pierce the grey sky, wooden barracks stretching in endless rows before him. Groups of emaciated men in British uniforms huddle against the driving rain, heads bowed. He hasn't seen Margaret for days, not since the door slammed and the neighbours complained about their arguing. He takes from his hip flask, barely registering the burn anymore.
39:05 Matt Forde? William studies a prisoner's file. Private Best in the Manchester Regiment. Captured at Dunkirk alongside his brother. Perfect. Today will be different from his usual broadcasts. If he pulls it off, this might just land him that promised promotion. His polished shoes echo on the concrete floors of the interrogation block. The recording equipment stands ready. He adjusts the microphone, checks each dial methodically, wipes the condensation from each one. Everything must be perfect. The guard stands at attention.
39:43 Speaker 02 Your selection is ready, Herr Joyce.
39:46 Matt Forde? William strengthens his tie. Excellent. Bring him in. The door opens. Private Best looks even more fragile than his photo suggested. Ribs visible through his tattered shirt, a half-heeled gash above his eye. Please, take a seat. The prisoner lurches forward and spits. William feels it land on the lapel of his jacket. The guard's rifle butt smashes him in the stomach, doubling him over. That's enough. William raises his hand, stopping the guard mid-swing. Leave us. I can handle myself. Private Best. William's hand tightens on the file. He lights a cigarette.
40:30 Matt Forde? Quite something, wasn't it, Dunkirk?
40:35 Matt Forde? He exhales slowly. Two brothers, abandoned by Churchill on that French beach. And now, here you both are. William takes out a medical file from his leather folder, places it on the table. Though your brother isn't doing too well in the infirmary, I believe. Pneumonia. It's a killer. Kun Akit is a real Englishman, could you? Had to run off and be jetties performing monkey. I've heard your broadcasts. But William cuts in. Do you know what pneumonia does to a man? William opens the medical file, slides across the table.
41:14 Speaker 02 First, the fever spikes, then the coughing starts. Deep, wet, like drowning, from the inside.
41:23 Matt Forde? He studies Best's face.
41:25 Speaker 02 Rather like Dunkirk, I imagine.
41:29 Alice Levine? Okay, so if we were in any doubt, which I don't think we were, he is a nasty bastard.
41:36 Matt Forde? Best's hands clench into fists.
41:39 Speaker 02 Your brother's been asking for you, between the coughing fits.
41:44 Matt Forde? William taps Ash onto the floor.
41:46 Speaker 02 The human body can only fight for so long without proper medicine, without proper care, especially in a place like this. Difficult choices must be made.
41:58 Matt Forde? Best's voice comes out barely above a whisper.
42:02 Speaker 02 Please.
42:04 Matt Forde? William circles the table.
42:06 Speaker 02 Imagine how your mother would feel if one of her boys didn't do everything he could to save his brother's life.
42:14 Alice Levine? This is disgusting.
42:17 Matt Forde? William slowly pushes a script across the table, stubbing out his cigarette.
42:22 Speaker 02 Just words, simple words.
42:25 Matt Forde? Best stares at the script in horror.
42:28 Speaker 02 In exchange for your brother's life.
42:32 Matt Forde? William waits until he sees Private Best give the smallest of nods. William adjusts the microphone one final time, checking the levels. The red light flickers on.
42:44 Speaker 02 Germany calling, Germany calling. Good evening, England. Tonight, I bring you a special broadcast. A soldier speaks the truth about Churchill's betrayal.
42:55 Matt Forde? He nods to Best. His hands shake as he lifts up the script. My, my fellow Britons, I speak to you from Germany, where I've learned the truth about this war.
43:17 Matt Forde? Twenty-ninth of December nineteen forty. Cabinet war rooms, London.
43:24 Matt Forde? Winston Churchill grabs the table as an explosion rattles the reinforced ceiling of his subterranean war rooms. Lights flicker as dust and debris fall from the ceiling. An RAF officer bursts in, saluting.
43:39 Speaker 02 Latest radar report from Flight Command, sir. A large squadron of German bombers has broken through our air defences. Our fighters engaged, but, um...
43:49 Matt Forde? The man hesitates.
43:51 Speaker 02 Early reports indicate it's one of their largest raids yet.
43:55 Matt Forde? Churchill slams his glass down. Night after bloody night. Through the walls, a voice seeps into the room.
44:03 Speaker 03 Germany calling, Germany calling.
44:06 Matt Forde? The RAF officer shifts uncomfortably as the voice grows stronger, filling every corner of the office.
44:12 Speaker 03 While bombs rain down on your heads, Churchill and the Royal Family make secret preparations to flee to Canada.
44:19 Matt Forde? Turn that damned thing off! The wireless clicks silent. Churchill pours a large whisky. He hurls the glass against the wall as Brendan Bracken enters, hesitating as he carries his usual stack of papers. Bracken shifts awkwardly. Every night, he uses our own sons against us, takes their terror and beats us with it. And now... His voice trembles with rage. The bloody gall of it, to tell my people, my people, that I would abandon them. Stop dancing around, Bracken. What aren't you telling me, man? Reluctantly, Bracken produces a red folder marked "Most Secret".
45:04 Matt Forde? Churchill studies the surveillance photographs inside, showing William Joyce's daily routine in Berlin.
45:12 Matt Forde? We've tried chatting him down. It's impossible. If we block his radio signals, we risk blocking our own broadcasts. I fight to command communications. He watches as Bracken hesitates. There is
45:26 Matt Forde? another option, Prime Minister. Churchill's voice drops to a whisper. Show me everything.
45:35 Matt Forde? Every option. He stares at Joyce's picture, his rage cooling into something more dangerous: calculation. Churchill knows what must be done. This traitor's voice must be silenced, permanently. The methods may be ugly, may haunt his conscience, but he will not let William Joyce destroy his people's will to fight, not while he draws breath.
46:10 Speaker 08 A trucker merges onto the I-10 in New Orleans. He checks his mirrors. The lane is clear. And then, boom, impact. A pickup truck, seemingly out of nowhere, scrapes down the side of his 18-wheeler, multiple passengers inside. One man flees the scene, and the driver of the pickup, he doesn't seem all that upset. It didn't feel like a regular accident, because it wasn't. Across the city, truckers are getting sideswiped, all on the same stretch of the same freeway. And behind many of the cases is one person, a Hollywood stunt woman turned personal injury lawyer named Vanessa Moda. This podcast is a story about fake accidents that lead to real consequences and a scheme that ends in betrayal and murder.
46:55 Speaker 08 Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
47:17 Speaker 09 In a new podcast series, A Great Book with Barack Obama, President Obama sits down with a series of surprising and sharp guests to explore six books that have shaped his life and perspective on the world. From Song of Solomon and The Fire Next Time, to All the Pretty Horses and Gilead, the president is joined by guests like Tom Hanks and Ta-Nehisi Coates to reflect on how these timeless stories shaped his thinking on everything from fatherhood to leadership, and discover together what they tell us about the world we live in and the world we want to create.
47:54 Speaker 09 Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of A Great Book with Barack Obama ad-free right now, plus access each audiobook discussed in the series. Download the Audible app today.
48:16 Matt Forde? Twenty-second of June, 1941, Berlin. William shoulders through the busy Berlin streets, clutching his promotion papers. Chief commentator for foreign broadcasts, everything he's worked for. His head still spins from the meeting, from Goebbels' glowing words of praise.
48:38 Matt Forde? Celebrations explode around him. Wermacht's trucks thunder past, their engines mixing with German chants.
48:52 Alice Levine? And please, I don't know how many times I have to beg for it, do translate the German.
48:55 Matt Forde? That is German, for "to Moscow."
48:58 Alice Levine? To Moscow, sure.
49:00 Matt Forde? Germany has declared war on the Soviet Union. Operation Barbarossa has begun. Tonight, with renewed vigor, William will broadcast how Germany will crush Russia, then turn its full force on London. He pauses at a flower stand, selects a bouquet of white lilies, Margaret's favorite. He's barely seen her these past months, lost in rewrites and recordings, coming home long after she's gone to bed. But she'll understand, she always has. The woman who saw his potential that first night at the microphone, who gave him the courage to become who he is, who believed in him when he was nothing.
49:44 Matt Forde? He pauses at his apartment door. Takes another snifter from his hip flask. Margaret? Darling? I have some amazing... The flowers drop from his hand. Someone's ransacked the place. Drawers yanked open. Content scattered across the floor. He rushes to the bedroom. Wardrobe doors flung wide. Shelves stripped bare. Her telefunken radio gone. Margaret? Margaret! Panic claws at his throat as he stumbles back onto the street. He has to find her. The police, their friends, anyone who might...
50:25 Matt Forde? Movement catches his eye. A man in a dark coat across the road, watching him with deliberate focus. William starts walking, faster now. In a shop window reflection, two more men have joined the first, spreading out to flank him.
50:41 Matt Forde? More trucks thunder past, as William pushes through a cluster of Fairmax officers. William weaves through the crowd. His pursuers match his pace, closing the distance. Every attempted turn is cut off by another figure in a dark coat. His shoes slip on the cobblestones as he breaks into a run. Down Friedrichstrasse, their footsteps echoing behind him. They're herding him, he realizes, like wolves circling prey.
51:12 Matt Forde? He cuts onto Untedden Linden, where tanks now roll east towards Glory. Then, he sees it. The glint of a police officer's badge ahead. Officer! Officer, please! You have to help. I'm Lord Horhor, thee Lord Horhor. The officer's expression doesn't change, as he gestures to a black car idling at the curb.
51:42 Matt Forde? A couple of hours later. Gestapo headquarters, Berlin.
51:48 Matt Forde? William sits at a metal table, his collar loose, tie askew. His hip flask lies empty beside him. The room is spare: bare walls, single light, mirror that's probably two-way glass. A Gestapo officer enters, closing the door with deliberate slowness. He's older, stern-faced, with deep-set eyes that seem to look through William. He says nothing as he takes the seat opposite.
52:17 Speaker 02 This is outrageous!
52:19 Matt Forde? William straightens his tie with trembling fingers.
52:23 Speaker 02 Dr. Goebbels himself just promoted me, today, this very morning! And this afternoon, you run through the streets like a hunted animal.
52:34 Matt Forde? William buckles slightly. The officer slides a piece of paper across the table.
52:38 Speaker 02 Your broadcast schedule for the past month. Very busy man.
52:43 Alice Levine? Oh, a fan. Okay, this changes the dynamic.
52:47 Matt Forde? I can sign it if you like.
52:49 Speaker 02 As chief commentator... And this...
52:53 Matt Forde? He places photographs down, one by one.
52:56 Speaker 02 Your usual coffee shop. Your barber. The florist where you bought lilies today.
53:03 Alice Levine? Oh, they're all of me. This is like the Gestapo version of Love Actually, isn't it?
53:07 Speaker 02 Are you suggesting that we protect our valuable assets, Herr Joyce? Though some need more protections than others.
53:16 Matt Forde? The officer drops more photographs onto the table. Margaret entering an apartment building. Margaret at a cafe. Margaret with a man in Wehrmacht uniform. Margaret kissing him.
53:30 Speaker 02 No, she moved in with him yesterday. A captain in the Wehrmacht. They make a handsome couple, don't you think?
53:38 Matt Forde? The air leaves his lungs. His promotion paper slipped to the floor. Margaret! While he was with Goebbels, she was...
53:47 Speaker 02 But that's not why you're here.
53:49 Matt Forde? William barely hears him. The room seems to tilt. The officer leans forward.
53:55 Speaker 02 The British have activated a cell in Berlin. They're planning something... Permanent.
54:01 Matt Forde? William stares at the photos, his world collapsing.
54:05 Speaker 02 You've made powerful enemies, Herr Joyce. The British... Want you dead.
54:18 Speaker 10 I'm Gemma Whelan, and in the new season of The Spy Who, we tell the story of the original femme fatale, the spy who was Mata Hari. A famous dancer turned World War I secret agent, accused of seducing Allied officers to uncover their plans. But was she a temptress or a scapegoat for French failures? Follow The Spy Who now, wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also listen to the full season of The Spy Who Was Mata Hari, early and at free on Audible.
54:48 Speaker 11 Imagine you're reading Pride and Prejudice, except you're not reading it. Harris Dickinson and Marisa Abella are reading it to you on Audible. Her barbs sting you. His coldness sends a shiver up your spine. Your heart aches, your ears burn. You yearn for Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy to profess their undying love for one another. You can't bear it any longer. Well, maybe a chapter longer. Performance is so good, you'll give love a second chance. Audible. Stories that speak to you.
55:22 Matt Forde? From Wondery and Samistat Audio, this is the second episode in our series, Lord Horro, Germany Calling.
55:28 Alice Levine? A quick note about our dialogue. In most cases, we can't know exactly what was said, but all our dramatizations are based on historical research.
55:36 Matt Forde? If you'd like to know more about this story, you can read Germany Calling by Mary Kenny, Horror, The Tragedy of William and Margaret Joyce by Nigel Farndale, and Lord Horror, The Life and Legacy of the Notorious Nazi Propaganda Broadcaster During World War II by Charles River Editors.
55:52 Alice Levine? And remember, if you want to get in touch with us with comments, or suggestions, or ideas for scandals, then you can email us at [email protected] .
56:01 Matt Forde? British Scandal is hosted by me, Matt Ford.
56:03 Alice Levine? And me, Alice Levine.
56:04 Matt Forde? Written by Andy Sheridan. Additional writing by Alice Levine and Matt Ford. Our story editor is James Maniac. Sound design by Rich Evans. Our engineer is Jai Williams. For Samizdat, our producer is Redsey Bernard. Our assistant producer is Louise Mason. Our senior producers are Joe Sykes and Dasha Lisitsina. For Wondery, our senior producer is Theodora Leludis, and our senior managing producer is Rachel Sibley. Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, and Marshall Louie.
56:46 Speaker 12 Journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia spent her life exposing powerful people. Then, in 2017, she was killed in a car bombing. I'm Stephen Gray, and for the past nine years, I've been trying to find out who wanted her dead. That search took me to Malta through secret companies, organized crime, and eventually to one of the island's richest and most powerful men. Now, after years of waiting, this trial has finally happened. But when the verdict came in, the case took a turn that almost no one had expected. In a brand-new update to the multi-award-winning podcast Who Killed Daphne?, I'm returning to Malta to find out how we got there and where the search for the truth goes next. Listen to the new episode
57:28 Speaker 12 of Who Killed Daphne? wherever you get your podcasts. And you can hear the full six-part investigation from the beginning, ad-free, with Audible. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app and by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.
57:45 Speaker 13 For decades, two legendary brands fought for the hearts of American bikers: Indian Motorcycle and Harley-Davidson. The battle looked a lot like Coke versus Pepsi or Ford versus Chevy, but tastes changed and Indian didn't adapt fast enough. The icon all but died. Then came the con men, the dreamers, a string of spectacular failures that kept Indian in the grave, until one company finally got it right. This is the story of an improbable revival and the reignition of an old rivalry. Hey, I'm David Brown, the host of the podcast Business Wars. And every season, we bring you the true stories behind the companies that shape our world. Indian's new owners are going all in, but an existential crisis looms. Can Indian and Harley recruit enough younger riders to survive?
58:28 Speaker 13 Make sure to follow Business Wars wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Business Wars early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.
Previous Lord Haw-Haw: Germany Calling | Chelsea Smile | 1 Next Lord Haw-Haw: Germany Calling | Last Gasp | 3 Page updated November 3, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated