Lord Haw-Haw: Germany Calling | Chelsea Smile | 1

William Joyce wants to serve Britain. But when Britain's establishment rejects him, he chooses Hitler's Germany instead, becoming the plummy voice of Nazi propaganda. This is the story of one of history's most notorious traitors. A man whose voice poured from the heart of the Third Reich into the very homes he left behind. Do you have a suggestion for a scandal you would like us to cover? Or perhaps you have a question you would like to ask our hosts? Email us at [email protected] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alice Levine?

  Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of British Scandal ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.

• 0:13Alice Levine?

  Matthew, how was your weekend?

• 0:15Matt Forde?

  Oh, man, busy. Took the bins out, didn't separate the recycling, naughty. Took out a loan, not from a bank, and gambled the value of my home away. Please don't tell my wife. And I bought a gun. Please don't tell my wife that either.

• 0:30Alice Levine?

  Yeah, no, I won't. I mean, I hate to say it, but I don't, I don't know if I believe you.

• 0:36Matt Forde?

  Alice, I'm trying to raise our credibility. We host a show called British Scandal. People cannot think we're squares. They've got to think we're dangerous, that we're edgy.

• 0:46Alice Levine?

  Yeah, I mean, I don't think people expect you to be something you're not. Like, you don't have to lie. So what did you actually do?

• 0:53Matt Forde?

  Okay, you got me. Of course I separated the recycling.

• 1:01Matt Forde?

  Dusk, May 28, 1945. Vasa-Sleben Woods, Danish-German border. British Army Lieutenant Geoffrey Perry marks another transmitter bunker on his army field map. Beside him, Captain Bertie Licorice lowers his binoculars with a sigh.

• 1:20Alice Levine?

  Have these names been changed for anonymity purposes, or are these real?

• 1:24Matt Forde?

  These are not the work of a random name generator. Captain Bertie Licorice was a real man. He must have had a bit of teasing.

• 1:31Alice Levine?

  Surely, I mean, an incredible legacy, of course, if you've ever enjoyed an all sorts.

• 1:37Matt Forde?

  The men have been tracking Nazi collaborators for weeks, but Geoffrey's growling stomach and the failing light tell him it's time to call it a day. Perry is about to head back to base when a twig snaps in the distance. His fingers tighten around his pistol as a shadow catches his eye through the woods. A stirring in the mist between the trees. A flicker of movement, then stillness. Another rustle, closer now.

• 2:08Matt Forde?

  Perry holds his breath as a silhouette emerges through the haze. A man in a threadbare tweed suit, firewood in his hands.

• 2:18Matt Forde?

  Perry's eyes narrow. He watches the stranger limp forward. He takes in the deep scar running from the man's mouth to his ear. Tees him freeze when he spots Perry staring at him.

• 2:31Matt Forde?

  Perry glances at Licorice before the man's voice cuts across the clearing.

• 2:35Speaker 02

  Excusez-moi!

• 2:37Matt Forde?

  He gestures with his walking stick at fallen branches, his French oddly clipped, refined.

• 2:43Speaker 02

  Il y en a encore de brindille par là?

• 2:47Matt Forde?

  That voice. Perry feels the hairs on the back of his neck prickle. Something about its tone. He's heard it before, but he can't place where.

• 2:59Matt Forde?

  His heart pounds against his ribs as he steps forward. His hands steady on his pistol as the stranger's uneven steps bring him within yards of their position. Perry keeps his voice calm and measured. Your papers, please. Perry's eyes narrow as the stranger's left hand plunges into his trouser pocket. Without thinking, Perry reaches for his gun, pulls it from its holster, raises it, and lets off two gunshots in rapid succession. The first shot catches the man in the buttock. The second tears through the shoulder of his jacket as he falls. The man crashes to his knees screaming, blood seeping through his trousers.

• 3:42Matt Forde?

  Perry's stomach lurches as he spots papers in the man's hand. Realises the man had been reaching for identification. Perry rushes forward, snatches the passport. But as he helps the wounded man up, he feels something crinkle beneath his jacket. Another document tucked into an inner pocket. He pulls the document free. A verpass for the Volksturm, the German Home Guard. The name blazes up at him. Perry stares at the man, then back at the documents in horror. It's all falling into place. The distinctive scar, the theatrical voice. His fingers tremble as he turns to Licorice. Bloody hell, Bertie.

• 4:27Matt Forde?

  Do you know who that is? Bertie looks at him bewildered. But Perry doesn't need an answer. Because this isn't some random Frenchman. This is Britain's most wanted traitor. The Nazi war criminal who betrayed his own country night after night after night. The man Churchill himself demanded be brought to justice. He stares again at the name. William Joyce. AKA. Lord Hall Hall.

• 5:05Speaker 03

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• 6:05Alice Levine?

  From Wondery, I'm Alice Levine.

• 6:07Matt Forde?

  And I'm Matt Ford.

• 6:08Alice Levine?

  And this is British Scandal, the show where we bring you the murkier stories that ever happened on these odd little isles.

• 6:15Matt Forde?

  British scandals come in many shapes and sizes. Some are about money, some are about sex, they're all about power.

• 6:22Alice Levine?

  But when we look at scandals a bit closer, they turn out to be stranger, wilder, just plain weirder than we remember.

• 6:29Matt Forde?

  So we're journeying back to ask who's to blame for what happened.

• 6:32Alice Levine?

  And when the dust settled, did anything really change?

• 6:45Matt Forde?

  Alice, I like to think of myself as a proud Brit. I believe in our political system. I think we can achieve great things as a country when we come together. I'm proud of elements of our history while recognising that parts of it are problematic. And more importantly, I love football. But would you say you're a patriot? And what does believing in your country mean to you?

• 7:04Alice Levine?

  Yes, to distill it down is really difficult, isn't it? But I feel like there are three main pillars of my patriotism. Apologising, twice per sentence. Cueing for anything and everything. And chip butties, of course. How could I leave them till last?

• 7:21Matt Forde?

  Yes, I would say those things are the bare minimum. But back in World War II, it was really quite simple. All you had to do was dig for Britain, remember all times that loose lips sink ships, and most importantly of all, don't run off to join the Nazis then seep poisonous propaganda into the ears of the nation in an attempt to undermine British morale and secure victory for Adolf Hitler.

• 7:42Alice Levine?

  Just easy rules to remember. Right, so I am guessing then that maybe, potentially, our new series involves someone who ignored that last key point.

• 7:51Matt Forde?

  Sadly, it does. This series is about one of history's most notorious traitors. Someone who took everything they knew about this fine country to use against us. He was a charismatic Irish-American who developed a kind of love of fascism. So, on the eve of war, he leaves England for Germany to fight on what you could call the most important front. He fights in the propaganda war, and for six years, his voice poured from the heart of the Third Reich into the heart of every home in Britain. His name was William Joyce. You might know him better as Lord Ho-Ho. Strap in for a gripping tale of vitriol, violence and betrayal. This is episode one, Chelsea Smile.

• 8:33Matt Forde?

  December 1921, Norton Barracks, Worcester Regiment. Fifteen-year-old William Joyce's lungs burn as he drags himself through the army assault course, icy rain lashing his face. William lied about his age at recruitment, and now his eight-stone body and shaking limbs threaten to reveal the truth.

• 8:56Matt Forde?

  But he won't give up. His Irish Unionist father's voice echoes in his head. "To be accepted, you've got to be more British than the British themselves."

• 9:06Speaker 02

  "This is the army, lad, not the fucking Girl Guides."

• 9:10Matt Forde?

  William's raw fingers slip on the rain-slicked wire bridge suspended above the mud. His arms shake uncontrollably.

• 9:18Speaker 02

  "You want to be a British soldier, then bloody well act like one."

• 9:22Matt Forde?

  He will be a British soldier. It's all he's ever wanted. But he feels his grip loosening. The world tilts as he tries to correct his balance. For a moment, he hangs suspended between sky and earth, his body twisting in space.

• 9:40Matt Forde?

  He crashes face-first into the mud. Laughter ripples through the watching soldiers.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  "Clean yourself up, Joyce. Are those buttons better blind me when I inspect them at lights out?"

• 9:52Alice Levine?

  It's a mad marriage of things, isn't it? It's like, you have to be incredibly physically strong, you have to be really, really strategically good, but also you have to have a natty sense of style.

• 10:06Matt Forde?

  You've got to be able to make that bed up. There's a lot of domesticity.

• 10:10Alice Levine?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 10:11Matt Forde?

  In the life of a soldier, make your bed, polish your shoes, kill that bloke.

• 10:19Matt Forde?

  That night, fever burns through him as his trembling hands polish his brass buttons for the fifth time. The metal gleams in the dimming light of the barracks. He catches his reflection in one, a pale, thin face staring back. He feels his eyelids shutting as he finally climbs into bed and pulls the hard-wool sheet across his chest.

• 10:42Matt Forde?

  But then he starts to hear it, the familiar taunt from across the barracks.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  Come on, Patty, show us your devotion to the crown.

• 10:57Matt Forde?

  He knows he's being godard, but he refuses to back down. He snaps to attention beside his bed, nightclothes damp with sweat. He tries to lessen the Irish lilt, as his voice rings out.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  God save our gracious king, long live our noble king.

• 11:16Matt Forde?

  The room spins, his knees buckle.

• 11:22Matt Forde?

  He wakes the next day in the infirmary, almost blinded by the sterile whiteness of his surroundings.

• 11:29Matt Forde?

  His eyes struggle to focus, as a doctor shoves a glass thermometer into his mouth. Your fever has passed. The doctor looks at him with an almost fatherly gaze. But I'm afraid you're done here, son.

• 11:40Alice Levine?

  For one fever?

• 11:41Matt Forde?

  William stares at him in confusion. Did you really think you'd get away with it? The doctor slides the discharge papers across the bed. William stares at the red stamp marked 'underage'.

• 11:54Alice Levine?

  Oh my god, it is Nadine, I believe on, was it pop stars the rivals all over again? Made in a birth as the fifteenth of the second thirty five, make me a Germany.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  A Germany?

• 12:04Alice Levine?

  Absolutely incredible. Oh gosh, it's been happening throughout history.

• 12:09Matt Forde?

  William's eyes widen. He tries to push himself up from the infirmary bed.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  No, sir, please, I'll work harder.

• 12:16Matt Forde?

  Go home and get an education.

• 12:20Matt Forde?

  He watches the doctor leave the room, as he realises he'll never be accepted in the rank and file. Tears fill in his eyes, as his gaze settles on a pile of old books in the corner. He'll heed the doctor's advice. He'll educate himself, master their words and ways. He'll force the establishment to take him seriously, and then he'll find a way to serve England properly. Not just as a common soldier, but as someone who can truly defend the empire. Someone they can't ignore.

• 12:57Matt Forde?

  A few years later, Christmas Eve, Aldam Station, Greater Manchester. William steps onto the frost-covered platform. Through the steam haze, he sees Aldam's smokeless mill chimneys, the grime of industrial decline choking in his throat. Since his army discharge, he's thrown himself into his English and History degree at Birkbeck College. He's even met a girl, Hazel, and joined the Conservatives. If he can't serve his country from the front line, he'll do it from the dispatch box instead. William, there you are! His cousin Patrick pulls him into an embrace and leads him out of the station. He's been working so hard at his studies, he can't wait to finally wind down and mark

• 13:42Matt Forde?

  Christmas with a drink. But after a short walk, they stop in front of a church hall where veterans shuffle past them toward the entrance. Church? It's a bit early for midnight mass. He stops as he sees his cousin smile.

• 13:58Matt Forde?

  It's a soup kitchen, William. Won't take long. These men fought for King and Country, at least we can do is serve them dinner on Christmas Eve. Inside, William's eyes widen as he takes in row after row of men queuing in silence, military medals proudly pinned to their chests, the sickly smell of boiled cabbage in the air. Eo, put this on. William takes an apron as he's directed to the serving hatch. He steadies a bowl for a man whose hands won't stop trembling. He fought at heaps, now he sleeps under the railway arches. But surely the government would... He watches the veterans struggle to lift the spoon to his lips. Open your eyes, William. Lloyd George and his war profiteers grow fat while heroes freeze.

• 14:42Matt Forde?

  £10,000 for a title, that's the going rate.

• 14:46Alice Levine?

  Wait, this sounds like Cash for Honours, which I think of as being a Blair-era scandal. But is this the OG?

• 14:53Matt Forde?

  This is the OG. The last Liberal Prime Minister, David Lloyd George, sold peerages and other gongs. So it was 10 grand for a knighthood, that'd be 500 grand today. 30 grand for a baronetcy, that'd be 1.5 million in today's money.

• 15:06Alice Levine?

  Oof.

• 15:07Matt Forde?

  And for a peerage, 50 grand, which would be 2.6 million pounds today.

• 15:11Alice Levine?

  Bargain.

• 15:12Matt Forde?

  They also did a deal. He invented the OBE, which became known as Order of the Bad Egg. And 25,000 people got those over four years. This wasn't raising money for the country, straight into party coffers. And he was one of the first to give these gongs to leading members of Fleet Street of the media, to stick them in the House of Lords, to give them knighthoods in order to effectively buy their loyalty for the party.

• 15:36Matt Forde?

  William feels his anger rising to his throat as the veteran shuffles forward.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  These men bled for Britain, they defended our empire.

• 15:45Matt Forde?

  William's hands clench. This isn't the empire he wanted to serve. I doubt that's the sort of thing they talk about in posh circles down south. William feels himself bristle before his cousin thrusts something else into his hand.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  Read this, William, it'll tell you all you need to know.

• 16:03Matt Forde?

  He looks down, it's a pamphlet. He stares at the title, The New Britain. His eyes flick across the headings. The Path to National Revival, Strength Through Unity.

• 16:16Alice Levine?

  This isn't quite the piss-up he'd envisaged, is it?

• 16:18Matt Forde?

  He spent the last year working away in the Conservative Society, going to port and policy meetings, discussing the issues of the day in smoky back rooms, talking about incremental change. But as he looks at the gaunt, ghostly faces of men shuffling through the church, he wonders if he's got it all wrong. Maybe what this country needs is a revolution. He pockets the pamphlet as he resumes his service, smiles at the veteran before him. It's men like this that made Britain great in the first place. Men like this that he wants to serve. He just needs to work out how.

• 17:02Matt Forde?

  Six months later, Burke Beck College. Hazel Barr hurries through Burke Beck's gaslit corridors, juggling her pharmacy notes. The Conservative Society meeting starts in a few minutes, and she's promised to support William through his maiden speech.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  Received pronunciation, William. The T must be crisp.

• 17:25Alice Levine?

  I mean, there's nothing like getting elocution lessons from your girlfriend, is there?

• 17:28Matt Forde?

  This is what the flirting ritual was in the 20s. There weren't apps back then. You basically bonded romantically through a love of pronunciation.

• 17:40Alice Levine?

  I love your glottal stop. You've got a hell of a long A.

• 17:44Matt Forde?

  Glottal stop.

• 17:47Matt Forde?

  She watches his mouth form the words. She'd first spotted him at a college dance, the only person engrossed in a book at the edge of the dance floor. He's different from the polished young men she's grown up with. She knows he can be intense, but she finds him intriguing, passionate. Britain stands at a crossroads. He repeats under his breath. Britain stands at a crossroads. Better. She stops him beneath a flickering light, straightens his crooked tie. Though I rather miss your lilting Irish way with words. This accent is a chain, and breaking it link by link. She rolls her eyes, squeezes his arm with lingering affection.

• 18:31Matt Forde?

  Well, I think you'll be brilliant. The Conservative Society's weekly meeting is in full swing. Hazel takes her seat as William strides toward the podium. Hazel watches William's hands trembling as he straightens his papers. The room falls silent. She gives him an encouraging nod.

• 18:53Speaker 02

  Our veterans, the men who bled at Epsom and the Somme, they didn't sacrifice everything so their children could inherit a weakened nation?

• 19:01Matt Forde?

  But her stomach flutters as she hears William's carefully-constructed Oxford vowels slip as passion overtakes him.

• 19:09Speaker 02

  While you drink champagne, those men can't find work. The Briton day four-four, "Sit down"? What would you know about British values?

• 19:18Matt Forde?

  Hazel turns to see money changing hands, bets being placed on how long it'll last.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  Stupid Paddy has forgotten his place.

• 19:27Alice Levine?

  And here's me thinking that the Conservative Society get-togethers would be a warm and inclusive environment, and yet this.

• 19:34Matt Forde?

  Yeah, I mean, you might presume that these would have been progressive places, but, shocker, no. And not just, actually, the Conservative Party at the time. This isn't that long after the Easter Rising of 1916 in Ireland. This is 1920s England, where general attitudes towards the Irish were regressive, to say the least, and William would have faced anti-Irish prejudice almost certainly on a daily basis. Hazel sees the muscle in his jaw twitch. For a moment, she thinks he might actually leap into the crowd.

• 20:07Speaker 02

  Order, I move we address the truly pressing issue, whether sweet pudding or spotted dick better represents the backbone of British character.

• 20:18Matt Forde?

  Hazel's heart sinks as she sees William storm away from the podium. Outside, in the corridor, he paces like a caged animal. Did you see them, laughing while everything we hold sacred falls to ruin? She reaches for him, but he's already striding over to a cork notice board, tearing down a "British Supporters of Mussolini" poster.

• 20:42Matt Forde?

  His fingers trace the bold red letters. Hazel looks down at the page. I'm not sure a rally for a bold Italian is quite the answer, William. Why? Because he doesn't wear the right school tie? She eyes him with frustration. No, because he's a preening dictator who struts around Rome like a rooster in a black shirt. He takes her face in his hands. Look at what we just saw, the so-called future of British politics dancing on tables while the empire crumbles. At least Mussolini understands what it takes to make a country great again.

• 21:18Alice Levine?

  Oh, right, okay. I guess I thought, because he had sympathies with, you know, society's forgotten, with the working man, with veterans, and the Conservative society were not very welcoming, I guess I thought he was going to turn left.

• 21:31Matt Forde?

  Yes, well, obviously, that connection with the working man is what puts the fire in the belly, but the simple answers that populism offers people in a time of crisis cut through in a far more emotional way than the politics and the messaging often around the sort of liberal centre ground.

• 21:51Matt Forde?

  Hazel studies him, so different from the tepid certainty she's grown up with. She knows her parents will never approve of someone like William. Perhaps she should just end this now, but the thought of ending up with one of those champagne-soaked buffoons suddenly seems impossible. When is it? You'll come. She touches his cheek, nods. Of course I'll come. Let's show them all what real change looks like.

• 22:23Matt Forde?

  Twenty-fourth of October, 1924, Lambeth Baths. William blows his warm breath into Hazel's chilled hands as the crowd jostles past them, cloth caps and bowler hats, working men's boots and leather Oxfords all streaming toward the entrance. Tonight, the local Conservative candidate is rallying support against Battersea's Indian Communist MP. I should get back to the library. He squeezes Hazel's hand. Be careful tonight. He watches as the fog swallows her silhouette. William's been attending right-wing political rallies weekly for the last few months. It's only four days until the general election, and he's determined to end the socialist tide that the current Labour government has

• 23:07Matt Forde?

  allowed to seep into British society.

• 23:11Matt Forde?

  He spins as he feels a tap on his shoulder.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  Oi, Joyce!

• 23:15Matt Forde?

  A security steward towers over him.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  I need an extra pair of hands with security. You're on the door.

• 23:22Matt Forde?

  William blinks. Security? I'm not... But the steward hands him a black armband, security emblazoned across it in white letters.

• 23:33Matt Forde?

  Inside, the crowd settles, every cough amplified by the tiled walls.

• 23:40Matt Forde?

  The speaker takes the stage, his voice booming as he denounces Bolshevism in Britain's streets.

• 23:47Matt Forde?

  "My fellow countrymen, Britain stands at a crossroads. Our great nation, built on duty, honour and empire, is under siege, not by armies but by insidious forces creeping into our land."

• 24:02Matt Forde?

  A ripple of commotion from the back. William's eyes dart across the crowd as a man rises, face twisted.

• 24:09Speaker 02

  "Fascist pig!"

• 24:10Matt Forde?

  William's heartbeat quickens as more voices join from behind. Shouts erupt around him. Suddenly, the crowd is on its feet as the speaker is rushed from the stage. William throws himself into a surge of bodies, pushing back with force against the chaos. A hand yanks him forward. Something hard hits his cheek. He stumbles, stunned. Then, a flash of steel in the corner of his eye.

• 24:37Alice Levine?

  "Oh god."

• 24:38Matt Forde?

  He doesn't feel the cut at first.

• 24:40Alice Levine?

  "Oh, I don't like it."

• 24:41Matt Forde?

  Just warm blood running down his neck. The world tilting sideways as he collapses to the cold, hard floor and blacks out.

• 24:59Matt Forde?

  William eases open his eyes as morning light floods the whitewashed room. A smell of antiseptic. Hazel's face swims into focus.

• 25:08Alice Levine?

  "William!"

• 25:10Matt Forde?

  He pushes himself upright as a man in a rumpled shirt bursts in, followed by a photographer.

• 25:15Speaker 02

  "Mr Joyce, you're awake."

• 25:17Matt Forde?

  William looks up at the man in confusion.

• 25:20Speaker 02

  "Daily Mail."

• 25:21Alice Levine?

  "Oh my god, now is not the moment."

• 25:23Matt Forde?

  The journalist straightens his tie.

• 25:25Speaker 02

  "Would you mind if we got a photograph? The public should see what these communist thugs are capable of."

• 25:31Matt Forde?

  His fingers touch the bandage, thinking of all the pamphlets and rallies that have led him here.

• 25:36Speaker 02

  "Tell us, Mr Joyce, who do you believe can secure this country's future?"

• 25:40Alice Levine?

  "It's a lot, isn't it? It's a lot at any time, it's a big question, but he has just come round having his face slashed."

• 25:47Matt Forde?

  "Yeah, one, how did you get in here? Two, what's wrong with me? Three, I'm quite peckish, are there any sandwiches going?" William looks from Hazel to the journalist. In the old days, he would have said the Conservative Party, but everything has changed now. He turns and looks directly into the lens of the camera as he hears himself reply.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  I fight for Britain, for its future.

• 26:12Matt Forde?

  He glances at Hazel.

• 26:13Alice Levine?

  Who says, "I fight for Britain"? Land on the tees hard, darling.

• 26:17Speaker 02

  And I know of only one movement willing to do what is necessary.

• 26:21Matt Forde?

  He pauses.

• 26:23Speaker 02

  So I fight for fascism.

• 26:27Matt Forde?

  Now it's time to follow his words with actions.

• 26:43Speaker 05

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• 27:13Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Kenya Barris.

• 27:14Speaker 07

  And I'm Malcolm Gladwell. We're back for season two of our Audible original podcast, The Unusual Suspects.

• 27:20Speaker 06

  We're bringing you fresh, new conversations from guests like Anderson Paak, David Zedares, Ryan Howard, Rich Roll, Amy Sheldon, and many more.

• 27:26Speaker 07

  Sign up for a free trial to Audible to listen to season two in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 27:42Matt Forde?

  1929, Farquhar Road, London.

• 27:48Matt Forde?

  Hazel bounces her screaming baby daughter on her hip while spreading unpaid bills across their kitchen table. Her father's words from last week still sting.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  Not another penny for that political rabble-rouser.

• 28:03Matt Forde?

  Through the thin wall, she hears William shuffling through his endless committee reports and membership lists. The fascist movement consumes him.

• 28:12Alice Levine?

  This is ticking a lot of British scandal boxes. A disapproving, posh father, a baby at a difficult time in your life, and a husband completely consumed with his ideology.

• 28:24Matt Forde?

  And the terror of unpaid bills.

• 28:28Matt Forde?

  A shadow falls across the doorway as William appears.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  Could you, uh?

• 28:34Matt Forde?

  He waves vaguely toward their daughter without looking up from his papers.

• 28:38Alice Levine?

  Oh my god, ah!

• 28:42Matt Forde?

  The final notice from their landlord crumples in Hazel's fist.

• 28:47Speaker 02

  Look at these bills, William. I know you mean to save the country, but who is saving ours?

• 28:53Alice Levine?

  Now, I've never been a fan of Hazel. I've said that from the beginning, but she has a point.

• 28:57Speaker 02

  Hazel, the movement needs... The movement is 20 different groups who can't even agree on a name. Half your meetings are just tea and gossip with geriatric army officers.

• 29:08Matt Forde?

  His face clouds over. You used to believe in the cause.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  I believed in you, but I married a man, not a martyr.

• 29:16Matt Forde?

  She watches him flinch, his hand unconsciously touching his scar. She softens.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  You're brilliant enough to lecture at any university. Instead, you waste your talents organising meetings and copying leaflets for people who can barely fill a parish hall.

• 29:33Matt Forde?

  Hazel feels her baby's cries fade to whimpers against her shoulder. I won't give up the cause.

• 29:39Speaker 02

  I'm not asking you to.

• 29:40Matt Forde?

  She shifts her baby to her hip, studies the man she married. Still handsome.

• 29:46Speaker 02

  But I need a husband. Our daughter needs a father, and we both need to eat. Get a proper job. Lecture, write. Just give us something to live on besides pamphlets.

• 30:00Alice Levine?

  How many times have we heard this? Just a really simple request, which is, "Could you keep a roof over our heads, please, whilst you also pursue your other endeavours, which I completely support you in, but could you just maybe put some food on the table?"

• 30:14Matt Forde?

  I like the fascism, William. That's in the bank. What isn't in the bank is any money. You've got to find a way to monetise the far-right.

• 30:21Alice Levine?

  Dare I say, YouTube channel. To be fair, extreme pamphlets were probably the far-right Youtubes of the day.

• 30:29Matt Forde?

  Yeah. Imagine a Joe Rogan pamphlet. It'd take 10 hours to read it.

• 30:35Matt Forde?

  She watches his eyes dart at his papers, then at the baby. Sees the struggle play out across his face before he nods slowly.

• 30:44Speaker 02

  "I'll start applying to universities."

• 30:46Matt Forde?

  She makes herself smile. She still loves his passion. But now she has something more important to protect. She must put her family first. And that's exactly what she's going to do.

• 31:02Matt Forde?

  Three years later, Victoria College, London. William glances at the clock mounted above the lecture blackboard. 3.15. Two years of coaching privileged students for their Oxbridge exams is wearing thin. A few months ago, the formatory MP to Oswald Mosley founded the British Union of Fascists, and the movement is gaining momentum. William's attended every London rally. But each hour in the classroom is another missed hour he could be dedicating to the cause. He scratches the poet William Butler Yeats's words across the blackboard, chalk dust settling on his carefully mended suit cuffs.

• 31:44Speaker 02

  "Things fall apart. The centre cannot hold."

• 31:48Matt Forde?

  This is from Yeats's famous poem "The Second Coming", which obviously takes its name from the Stone Roses album.

• 31:58Matt Forde?

  But it is a very famous poem. There are so many lines in this that you would recognise. One particularly impactful line is, "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity."

• 32:11Alice Levine?

  Yeah, it's incredible. Even though it was written over 100 years ago, people come back to it time and time again, plunder it for lines. As you say, it's been reproduced in pop culture so many times. And particularly in moments of crisis, this faces it head-on. It just looks at the chaos.

• 32:27Matt Forde?

  I'm never sure whether to take comfort from the fact that stuff like this is cyclical, and other people have been through it before, and I can read something that helps me, or whether to despair that we simply fail to learn our lessons as a species, and are doomed to repeat them.

• 32:43Alice Levine?

  It feels like the last one, doesn't it?

• 32:45Matt Forde?

  Right now, it kind of does. But you know, we've got beer, we've got football. What more do you want?

• 32:50Alice Levine?

  It was ever thus.

• 32:52Matt Forde?

  He turns to face the dejected faces of his students scattered across the lecture theatre.

• 32:57Speaker 02

  What do we think these lines are about?

• 32:59Matt Forde?

  A few students shift in their seats, avoiding his gaze. William is about to explain, when a hand tentatively rises.

• 33:06Speaker 02

  Well, um, the Wall Street Crash.

• 33:10Matt Forde?

  Another student chips in, his red tie stark against his white shirt.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  It's the fall of capitalism, like Marx predicted.

• 33:18Matt Forde?

  William's hand tightens around the chalk in his fingers at the mention of Marx. Watching the students' eager face, the boy is young, impressionable, the sort who could be shown a better path.

• 33:30Speaker 02

  And you believe Marx's economic determinism offers the only reading?

• 33:34Matt Forde?

  He glances at the lecture theatre's open door, knowing he's crossing a line. This isn't what they pay him to teach, but he sees the class lean forward as he continues.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  What about the vacuum that forms when old certainties crumble? The way some nations protect themselves while others flounder?

• 33:52Matt Forde?

  The student's conviction wavers.

• 33:54Speaker 02

  Yes, but international cooperation? How's that working for Britain right now?

• 34:00Matt Forde?

  The student squirms in his seat.

• 34:02Speaker 02

  While American banks collapse, while foreign markets draggers down with them, who's protecting British interests?

• 34:09Matt Forde?

  He watches understanding dawn on their young faces. His pulse quickens. If he'd just had another half hour, he could really make them see.

• 34:20Matt Forde?

  The bell cuts through his thoughts, but as the class gather their books, the student with the red tie lingers. His earlier certainty replaced by questions. Several others also cluster around William's desk. He looks around at their earnest faces, the minds that will shape Britain's future. He begins to pack his briefcase, as he does. His eyes fall on the front page of the Evening Standard, and a black and white photo of Mosley addressing huge crowds. He thinks of Hazel, of the promise to keep his job. But studying Mosley's photograph, he sees another path. William's voice has carried across lecture halls for years, shaping young minds and guiding them towards the right path.

• 35:05Matt Forde?

  How different could a rally be?

• 35:12Matt Forde?

  One year later, Dumfries Meeting Hall, Scotland.

• 35:18Matt Forde?

  Twenty-two-year-old Margaret Cairns-White shifts in her wooden chair. She's travelled five hours from Carlisle. She intends to set up a BUF women's division, but she needs headquarters approval. She's watched her father's textile business crumble under Asian imports and cheap artificial fabrics. Something needs to be done, and her women's division is just the beginning. Who's speaking? William Joyce. She glances down at her notepad. It's the same contact she's been given. They say he can turn committed communists into fascists in a single speech. Margaret raises an eyebrow, sceptical. She's heard Sir Oswald Mosley speak, seen his aristocratic charm work on crowds.

• 36:02Matt Forde?

  This Joyce will have to be something special to compare.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  Our northern factories stand empty, while London bankers count their profits, our communities crumble.

• 36:14Matt Forde?

  Margaret feels herself lean forward, surprised at his directness.

• 36:18Speaker 02

  They tell us this depression is natural.

• 36:20Matt Forde?

  She feels her pulse quicken as his hands slice through the air. This is raw, hungry, reaching into her gut.

• 36:29Matt Forde?

  During the interval, she threads through the crowd, positions herself in his path. She smooths her skirt, noting how his eyes follow the movement. Steps closer, letting her perfume do its work. Will you be at the Manchester rally next week, Mr Joyce?

• 36:45Speaker 02

  How nice to see the young ladies taking an interest. I suppose you're here for the social aspect.

• 36:51Matt Forde?

  Margaret bristles. Do I really look like I'm here for tea and biscuits, Mr Joyce? I'd like to discuss my idea for a women's division with you. Her voice drops lower. The King's Arms, eight o'clock, tonight. His fingers linger on hers as he takes the paper.

• 37:07Speaker 02

  You're rather dangerous, aren't you?

• 37:09Alice Levine?

  Okay, fascist leader in sleaze shocker.

• 37:12Matt Forde?

  She bats her long eyelashes. Mr Joyce, I'm whatever I need to be. Margaret leans in slightly. The question is, what do you need?

• 37:23Alice Levine?

  Okay, watching other people flirt at the best of times is the pits. Watching two fascists flirt, it's beyond the pale, isn't it?

• 37:30Matt Forde?

  And what about watching me playing two fascists flirt?

• 37:34Alice Levine?

  That might actually be the problem, the way you leant in as well.

• 37:36Matt Forde?

  I looked at you as well, what was I thinking?

• 37:39Alice Levine?

  And also, what was the bit with the cleavage? Sort of pushed your chin, very unusual. I mean, however you get in the role, it's none of my business, but to have to be in a room with you while you do it.

• 37:47Matt Forde?

  Look, if you've got it, flaunt it, and I can't keep these under wraps. As she turns away, she doesn't have to look back to know his eyes are following her. She's learned long ago that men find her most irresistible when they think they're discovering her brilliance for themselves. This one might actually be worth the effort.

• 38:10Matt Forde?

  1933, Victoria College, London.

• 38:15Matt Forde?

  William rubs his eyes, the words blurring on the page. His shoulders ache from hours hunched over the typewriter. Scattered student essays lie ignored beside him. Margaret waves the newspaper, her voice electric with excitement. Look what Hitler's achieved in just months. This is what real leadership looks like. One man reshaping an entire nation. The image shows thousands of Germans, arms raised in salute. Margaret leans over his shoulder as she studies his draft speech. Her finger traces a carefully worded passage about immigration. Here, she murmurs, her breath warm against his ear. Don't soften it. Tell them exactly who's responsible for their poverty.

• 39:00Matt Forde?

  Name names. The working man responds when you speak plainly. Her fingers trail along his collar. Give them truth, give them fire. He nods. She shifts closer, her hip brushing his shoulder. Come home with me. Hazel. The name catches in his throat. Hazel doesn't understand what you could become. You don't know her. She's the mother of my... Margaret pulls back sharply. Am I wrong? I know she keeps you teaching part-time when you should be speaking full-time. She pushes her chair back, gathering her papers. When you decide what you really want, William, let me know. Margaret, wait!

• 39:43Alice Levine?

  I know what I want, to have my cake and eat it, come back!

• 39:47Matt Forde?

  But she's already striding toward the door, slamming it behind her.

• 39:52Matt Forde?

  An hour later, he drags his tired feet up his front porch and enters the darkened entrance hall. About to creep up the stairs when he catches the sight of a shadow in the kitchen.

• 40:03Speaker 02

  Another crucial meeting?

• 40:05Matt Forde?

  Guilt twists in his stomach. The movement needs...

• 40:09Alice Levine?

  More tonking. Just a call back to the Dirty Duchess series. If you haven't listened to it, you simply must.

• 40:15Matt Forde?

  If you like posh people having it off, it's for you. Hazel stands, chair scraping across the floor.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  You promised!

• 40:25Matt Forde?

  Hazel, please, I'm exhausted. She laughs bitterly.

• 40:29Speaker 02

  Ha! Throwing everything away for a fascist fantasy and some trollop. Don't say that!

• 40:37Matt Forde?

  His shout echoes off the kitchen walls. He sees Hazel flinch and something cracks inside him.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  At least she understands what I can achieve.

• 40:46Matt Forde?

  His voice quietens.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  What we can achieve. She sees what Britain could be.

• 40:52Alice Levine?

  Ah, he's told on himself there a bit, hasn't he? He's sort of let slip.

• 40:56Matt Forde?

  Yeah, is this about the country or is it about you, William? Silence stretches between them. His hands shake as he grips the kitchen chair.

• 41:04Speaker 02

  I can't keep pretending.

• 41:07Matt Forde?

  A single tear falls from his eye.

• 41:09Speaker 02

  I can't be the husband you want anymore. I'm leaving.

• 41:13Matt Forde?

  He watches Hazel's face crumple, sees the tear start. He turns away. No more compromises, no more half-measures. He's going to be with Margaret, commit to the fascist party full-time and do everything in his power to restore Britain to its former greatness.

• 41:36Speaker 08

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• 42:19Speaker 08

  Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of A Great Book with Barack Obama ad-free right now, plus access each audiobook discussed in the series. Download the Audible app today. There are books that change how you see the world, and there are books that change how you see yourself. In a new podcast series, A Great Book with Barack Obama, President Obama sits down with a series of surprising and sharp guests to explore six books that have shaped his life and perspective on the world. From Song of Solomon and the Fire Next Time, to All the Pretty Horses and Gilead, the

• 43:02Speaker 08

  president is joined by guests like Tom Hanks and Ta-Nehisi Coates to reflect on how these timeless stories shaped his thinking on everything from fatherhood to leadership, and discover together what they tell us about the world we live in and the world we want to create. Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of A Great Book with Barack Obama ad-free right now, plus access each audiobook discussed in the series. Download the Audible app today.

• 43:45Matt Forde?

  September 20, 1934, B U F rally, Streatham. William clasps Margaret's hand as he makes his way through corridors packed with black shirts. Their black uniforms, modeled after Mussolini's men, represent everything he's fought for: purpose, respect, a real chance at reshaping Britain. His heart stops when he spots Oswald Mosley through the stage curtain, doubled over in pain. The leader's face is gray, his leg visibly swollen from the phlebitis that's plagued him since the war. Sir Oswald! William pushes forward, but the doctor blocks his path.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  The veins in his legs are completely inflamed. He can't stand, let alone speak.

• 44:30Matt Forde?

  Margaret steps forward. Sir Oswald, William can speak. He's been drawing crowds all across London. William looks at her in horror. Margaret! No! But Mosley's eyes are already on him.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  William, uh...

• 44:45Matt Forde?

  Mosley's voice is strained with pain.

• 44:48Speaker 02

  You think you could hold the crowd?

• 44:51Matt Forde?

  The crowd's murmur grows louder. William swallows heart.

• 44:55Speaker 02

  Sir, I couldn't presume.

• 44:58Matt Forde?

  Margaret's whisper is fierce in his ear.

• 45:01Speaker 02

  They need someone. They need you.

• 45:04Matt Forde?

  Mosley nods sharply. William's heart thunders as he peers through the curtain at the sea of black shirts. He feels Margaret give him a look of encouragement as he gives Oswald a final nod. Then turns and steps out into the blinding lights on stage.

• 45:24Speaker 02

  Uh, b- brothers.

• 45:26Matt Forde?

  His voice wavers for a moment. He sees their confusion, their disappointment. Something hardens inside him.

• 45:34Speaker 02

  Brothers, Sir Oswald cannot be with us tonight.

• 45:40Matt Forde?

  A murmur of discontent. He presses on.

• 45:44Speaker 02

  But his vision, our vision, must be heard. I've seen the truth in our streets. I've watched them turn away British workers while foreign labour floods our ports. I've seen English children with hollow cheeks while ships full of our wealth sail to foreign banks.

• 46:03Matt Forde?

  The crowd stills, listening now.

• 46:06Speaker 02

  The old Britain is dead, but from its ashes, we will forge a new Britain. Pure, strong, ours.

• 46:21Matt Forde?

  The hall erupts. He feels the energy building, feeding back into him, making his words soar. When he finally steps back, throat raw, the crowd is his. Margaret runs to him backstage, pulling him into a fierce embrace. He's still shaking with adrenaline when Mosley appears, leaning on his cane. William holds his breath, unsure what his leader will say.

• 46:49Matt Forde?

  He watches as Mosley extends his hand.

• 46:52Speaker 02

  How do you feel about a new position? I'm thinking... Director of propaganda.

• 47:04Matt Forde?

  One year later, the Black House BUF HQ, Chelsea. William fingers his toothbrush moustache, carefully trimmed to mirror Sir Oswald's. He tightens the belt on his trench coat. The reports under his arm represent weeks of work, careful plans to tackle the Conservative Prime Minister's New Public Order Act. Parliament is trying to ban political uniforms and shut down all black shirt marches. It could destroy everything he's built with Sir Oswald, and he's determined not to let that happen.

• 47:38Alice Levine?

  Okay, so if people heard the Oswald Mosley series, they may remember us touching on this.

• 47:44Matt Forde?

  Yes, this was a major problem at the time, these fascist marches that turned violent, and people would clash with them, the police would clash with them, anti-fascist protesters would as well. So there was a public order issue, that they didn't want violence on British streets. There's also a national security issue, because fascism is sweeping across Europe, and Britain doesn't want it happening here. So, black shirts and other political uniforms were banned, and police were given sweeping powers to arrest fascists, fascist sympathizers, the BUF, and smaller Nazi groups if they were gathering in public.

• 48:17Matt Forde?

  His footsteps echo in the marble stairwell of the Black House, as he climbs toward Mosley's office. He takes a breath, and knocks. After a few moments, a frustrated voice beckons him in.

• 48:31Speaker 02

  Enter!

• 48:33Matt Forde?

  William walks over to the table and starts to lay out his papers.

• 48:36Speaker 02

  The Act will strangle every political march in Britain, its censorship, but...

• 48:42Matt Forde?

  He looks up to see Oswald's eyes fixed on his own.

• 48:44Speaker 02

  Sir Oswald, is everything all right? The situation is worse than we thought.

• 48:50Matt Forde?

  William nods.

• 48:51Speaker 02

  Yes, but I've found several areas where we could...

• 48:55Matt Forde?

  Oswald takes a long drag on his Dunhill International cigarette.

• 48:58Speaker 02

  I've just heard Mussolini is pulling all BUF funding.

• 49:03Matt Forde?

  The words hit like a ton of bricks. He knows Mussolini's contributions fund most of his department's activities.

• 49:09Speaker 02

  I'm afraid I have no choice, William. I'm dissolving the propaganda department. The entire department?

• 49:16Matt Forde?

  William feels Oswald's steely gaze fix on him.

• 49:20Speaker 02

  Including your position.

• 49:23Matt Forde?

  William's hands begin to shake.

• 49:26Speaker 02

  Sir Oswald, I've given everything to this movement. I've given my marriage, my career.

• 49:32Matt Forde?

  Oswald stubs out his cigarette and lights another.

• 49:35Speaker 02

  The numbers don't lie. We can't maintain current salary levels and right now I need foot soldiers. The Conservatives are looking for blood. So that's it? You're disposing of me like some dog who's outlived his usefulness?

• 49:48Matt Forde?

  Oswald smashes his fists on the desk.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  Mind your tone, Joyce! My tone?

• 49:55Matt Forde?

  William barks a laugh.

• 49:57Speaker 02

  I bled for this movement while you gave speeches from ivory towers. I've walked away from everything.

• 50:04Matt Forde?

  William sees the flicker of a smile curl the edges of Oswald's lips.

• 50:09Speaker 02

  And now you'll walk away from this? Security will escort you out.

• 50:17Matt Forde?

  The rain soaks through William's coat as he stumbles out onto the wet pavement. Through the haze, he spots Margaret's familiar silhouette under a black umbrella, waiting.

• 50:27Speaker 02

  He's sacked me. The entire propaganda department, all gone. All these years, everything I've sacrificed.

• 50:34Matt Forde?

  Oswald's running scared. He sees Margaret shift from foot to foot. William, there are rumours. Rumours that the government's planning to introduce emergency laws. He looks at her in disbelief. A second bill? Eighteen B? To lock up B U F members? William tries to make sense of what Margaret is telling him, as a newspaper hawker hurries past.

• 51:02Speaker 02

  Hitler builds mighty army, three hundred thousand march in Berlin!

• 51:08Matt Forde?

  He looks at Margaret as an idea starts to form. He's spent his whole life trying to be British enough, trying to belong. The rage steadies his hands, straightens his spine. Once again, the establishment has shown him his true place. But this time, he won't beg for acceptance. He pulls Margaret close. He's going to leave Britain. He's going to escape to Germany, where a new army marches. And one day, his heart pounds with a certainty. He'll make Britain pay for every humiliation he's suffered at the hands of this small-sighted, rotten little nation.

• 51:56Speaker 09

  Journalist Tristan Redman goes where no son-in-law should ever go. Deep into his wife's family history, digging up the cold case of who murdered her great-grandmother. Because, I should mention, he thinks the murderer might actually be the beloved family patriarch. For the best binge-watch series like Ghost Story, listen to the Audible True Crime Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

• 52:16Speaker 10

  Dr. Seuss's Cat in the Hat and Fish are back for a whole lot of wonderfully whimsical fun. What happens when you switch bodies with your best friend? Discover a caveman frozen in ice? Or make an alien so angry, he threatens to destroy the planet? Find out in season two of the Cat in the Hat podcast. The Cat and Fish are traveling the world in the great catastrophic cacophony cruiser, meeting genies, clown professors, cave trolls, and extraordinary characters along the way. With clever wordplay, imaginative rhymes, original songs, and stories celebrating curiosity, empathy, and creative problem-solving, every adventure brings something new to discover. It's a world of wonderful words,

• 53:01Speaker 10

  big imaginations, and plenty of heart for the whole family. Listen to the Cat in the Hat podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all 20 episodes early and ad-free right now.

• 53:20Matt Forde?

  From Wondery and Samistat Audio, this is the first episode in our series, Lord Horror: Germany Calling.

• 53:27Alice Levine?

  A quick note about our dialogue. In most cases, we can't know exactly what was said, but all our dramatizations are based on historical research.

• 53:34Matt Forde?

  If you'd like to know more about this story, you can read Germany Calling by Mary Kenny, Horror: The Tragedy of William and Margaret Joyce by Nigel Farndale, and Lord Horror: The Life and Legacy of the Notorious Nazi Propaganda Broadcaster During World War II by Charles River Editors.

• 53:50Alice Levine?

  And remember, if you want to get in touch with us with comments, or suggestions, or ideas for scandals, then you can email us at [email protected].

• 53:59Matt Forde?

  British Scandal is hosted by me, Matt Ford.

• 54:01Alice Levine?

  And me, Alice Levine.

• 54:03Matt Forde?

  Written by Andy Sheridan. Additional writing by Alice Levine and Matt Ford. Our story editor is James Maniac. Sound design by Rich Evans. Our engineer is Jai Williams. For Samizdat, our producer is Redsy Bernard. Our assistant producer is Louise Mason. Our senior producers are Joe Sykes and Dasha Lisitzsen. For Wondery, our senior producer is Theodora Leludis and our senior managing producer is Rachel Sibley. Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, and Marshall Louis.

• 54:43Speaker 11

  By 1779, Benedict Arnold had sacrificed more for the Revolution than almost any other man in America. One of George Washington's most effective commanders, he had nearly lost a leg in the Second Battle of Saratoga. But in return, Arnold believed he had been humiliated by Congress and cheated of his glory by lesser men, so he decided to make them pay. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of the podcast American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history: presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, Benedict Arnold turns his back on his comrades in the Continental Army and secretly defects to the British. With the help of his wife, he plots to hand over the most important colonial fortress

• 55:27Speaker 11

  to the enemy and doom the Revolution he once served. Follow American Scandal wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. In the summer of 1881, US Army Lieutenant Adolphus Greeley and 24 other men embarked on an ambitious scientific mission to the northernmost reaches of the Arctic. But despite several triumphs of discovery, the men would soon face tragedy. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of the podcast American History Tellers. We take you to the events, times, and people that shaped America and Americans, our values, our struggles, and our dreams.

• 56:10Speaker 11

  In our latest series, after Adolphus Greeley and his As men arrive at their destination, more than 1,000 miles above the Arctic Circle, they get to work collecting scientific data and exploring the frigid landscape. But when resupply ships fail to reach them two summers in a row, they're forced to set out on a desperate search for rescue, and not all of them will make it home. Follow American History Tellers wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of American History Tellers: Greeley Arctic Expedition early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.