Raging Bull with David Krumholtz

Did you pod my cast? DID YOU POD MY CAST? Martin Scorsese's Raging Bull is often cited as one of the greatest films of all time - one of the greatest boxing films, one of the greatest biopics, one of the greatest screen transformations and lead performances of all time. It's also one of the greatest uses of repetitive dialogue. The great David Krumholtz joins us to talk about Robert De Niro, Joe Pesci, the luminous Cathy Moriarty, and the tonal tightrope this film walks. Again - DID YOU POD MY CAST?? Check out Krumholtz's De Niro story https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQbzZX48N2k De Niro FUCK TRUMP https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zNr8Pf1QkY Sign up for Check Book https://blankcheckpod.substack.com/welcome, the Blank Check newsletter featuring even more “real nerdy shit” to feed your pop culture obsession. Dossier excerpts, film biz AND burger reports, and even more exclusive content you won’t want to miss out on. Join our Patreon for franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. http://www.patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter https://x.com/blankcheckpod?lang=en, Instagram https://www.instagram.com/blankcheckpod/?hl=en, Threads https://www.threads.net/@blankcheckpod?xmt=AQGzctAh4mbWTwYzCV1pzNT6AMV9o99EOfymi8TLR5mTde0 and Facebook https://www.facebook.com/blankcheckpodcast/! Buy some real nerdy merch https://kinshipgoods.com/blankcheck Connect with other Blankies on our Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/blankies/s/gpcOkQr8Sv or Discord https://discord.gg/Q6YGSR3JrA For anything else, check out BlankCheckPod.com https://www.blankcheckpod.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:21David Sims?

  Go get him champ. On the podcast, on the podcast, on the podcast, on the podcast, on the podcast, on the podcast, on the podcast, on the podcast, on the podcast.

• 0:35Griffin Newman?

  You unhappy with this?

• 0:36David Sims?

  I love that. Okay. No, no, no, I'm very happy.

• 0:38Griffin Newman?

  The other one I was thinking about doing is if you podcast, you podcast. If you lose, you still podcast. There's no way you can lose.

• 0:47David Sims?

  What's the word there?

• 0:48Griffin Newman?

  Uh, win?

• 0:50David Sims?

  If you win, you win. If you lose, you win.

• 0:52Griffin Newman?

  You still win. There's no way you can lose.

• 0:55David Sims?

  Right. Yeah. I liked what you did. I thought that was great.

• 0:58Griffin Newman?

  Thank you. And for the listener at home, my handwork was perfect.

• 1:02David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:02Griffin Newman?

  My form was immaculate.

• 1:04Speaker 02

  You're not a amateur boxer?

• 1:06Griffin Newman?

  Thank you. Thank you for asking.

• 1:08David Sims?

  Have you ever boxed?

• 1:09Speaker 02

  I trained with a boxer. Yeah.

• 1:11David Sims?

  Like sort of a workout thing, right?

• 1:13Speaker 02

  And then I pinched both nerves, one nerve in each shoulder and went to a chiropractor and he fixed me, but I, part of him fixing me meant I wound up with a, an elbow that locks up for the rest of my life.

• 1:26Griffin Newman?

  What age was this?

• 1:28Speaker 02

  Thirty, thirty-one.

• 1:29Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 1:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. So he fixed one thing and by breaking another thing.

• 1:33Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34Griffin Newman?

  Uh, my, my father made me, uh, train in boxing to toughen me up when I was upper single digits and I hated it.

• 1:44David Sims?

  And your weight was also upper, upper single digits at that time, right?

• 1:47Griffin Newman?

  My weight was a lower single digits. I could not crack a hundred pounds.

• 1:51David Sims?

  Well, single digits would be one pound, lower single digits.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  I'm gonna ask you, you trained and did the person hit back?

• 1:59Griffin Newman?

  No, it was all kind of sparring, but it was at like a real boxing gym and I-

• 2:04Speaker 02

  Your father made you do it?

• 2:05Griffin Newman?

  Yes. My father used to, my father was-

• 2:08David Sims?

  Trying to toughen you up.

• 2:09Griffin Newman?

  This has been talked about before, a degenerate gambling addict, whose favorite bar was Jimmy's Corner. Are you familiar with Jimmy's Corner?

• 2:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, Jimmy Squanover. No, I'm not.

• 2:18David Sims?

  On Forty-Fourth Street.

• 2:19Griffin Newman?

  Owned, it was owned, he's sadly passed away, but Jimmy Glenn, who was a former boxing corner man. And so he had Jimmy Glenn, the owner of this bar, who was an old former boxer himself.

• 2:30David Sims?

  And that's just when you're trying to get your kid a little bit of, you know, TLC. What you want to do is ask your favorite bartender for help. Right.

• 2:37Griffin Newman?

  This is like me at nine.

• 2:38David Sims?

  Oh my God.

• 2:39Griffin Newman?

  Uh, and my brother was so jealous and my brother was a very physically rambunctious child, who would sometimes attack other kids, just kind of like randomly, he had so much excess energy. He'd start wailing on them and he wanted to box and my parents were like, this is a terrible idea. And it was like a year and a half, two years maybe of me begging my parents to let me stop and my brother begging to let him start.

• 3:03David Sims?

  Wow.

• 3:03Griffin Newman?

  And finally the switch over happened and the second my brother boxed, he completely balanced out. It like solved him and he had a Golden Gloves, he was a licensed fighter. He almost went pro as like a featherweight.

• 3:18Speaker 02

  But the two years that you boxed, you came away feeling like an inferior physical specimen.

• 3:24Griffin Newman?

  Crummy, you get me.

• 3:25David Sims?

  I do.

• 3:25Griffin Newman?

  You get it hard. Yes. I hated it. It was like extra gym class.

• 3:29Speaker 02

  If you didn't have a Napoleon complex prior to-

• 3:32Griffin Newman?

  Which I did.

• 3:33Speaker 02

  It only made it-

• 3:34Griffin Newman?

  Correct.

• 3:35Speaker 02

  Infinitely worse.

• 3:37Griffin Newman?

  Especially because my brother's also a little guy. I don't got no, no giant brother.

• 3:42Speaker 02

  It's why when I shake your hand, you really squeeze the shit out of my hand.

• 3:46Griffin Newman?

  I squeeze really hard and I locked in on your eyes.

• 3:48Speaker 02

  By the way, I do the same thing, but your squeeze-

• 3:51Griffin Newman?

  You gotta do it.

• 3:51Speaker 02

  Is squeezier than mine.

• 3:52Griffin Newman?

  Yes. And we did a hug. I did, I did a full body squeeze. I pinched those nerves.

• 3:57Speaker 02

  I don't want to insult you, but I didn't feel that happen.

• 4:00David Sims?

  I think this is a good energy for this episode though, because you know, we're talking about-

• 4:03Griffin Newman?

  Confrontational.

• 4:03David Sims?

  And masculinity.

• 4:05Griffin Newman?

  Brotherly love.

• 4:06David Sims?

  Right, right.

• 4:06Griffin Newman?

  Brotherly love.

• 4:07David Sims?

  Sort of the thin line here between insecurity and, you know, manhood and all that stuff.

• 4:12Griffin Newman?

  I became his manager. I kissed my brother's wife on the mouth. This is what happened. Yeah.

• 4:16Speaker 02

  What you kiss on the mouth for?

• 4:18Griffin Newman?

  What you kiss on the mouth?

• 4:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, with your mother, sure.

• 4:20Griffin Newman?

  Is this, is this the greatest repetition movie?

• 4:23David Sims?

  Yes.

• 4:23Griffin Newman?

  I picked a quote that was obviously saying the same thing eighty-seven times, but that's part of why I picked that.

• 4:28David Sims?

  Well, it just feels like the way his brain has been smushed, like he, he's got to cycle through phrases over and over to kind of like get to the phrase. Yeah.

• 4:37Speaker 02

  It's also, you know, obviously all improvised.

• 4:40Griffin Newman?

  Which is great.

• 4:41David Sims?

  Mm-hmm. It's good? Good performance?

• 4:45Griffin Newman?

  Who's the lead guy in this?

• 4:48Speaker 02

  But obviously all improvised, but, but you know, with improv, you know this, that you feel, there's that, there's that, oh, the joke didn't land, let's try it again.

• 4:58Griffin Newman?

  Yes, yes.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  And genuinely because of the chemistry between him and Pesci-

• 5:03Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 5:03Speaker 02

  Great stuff comes out of the repetition.

• 5:06Griffin Newman?

  Correct. Yeah. And, and look, Scorsese, I'd say master of repetition in general. He's good at the rhythmic repetition of dialogue.

• 5:13David Sims?

  He's good at making conversation feel real.

• 5:14Griffin Newman?

  But I think you're right. I think the punch drunk nature of this and how kind of like emotionally unevolved these guys are, means that he gets a lot more latitude to just like, they can just repeat the same thing for five minutes straight and just escalate the intensity of it.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  I came away thinking, how in the world could they have ever made this movie without Joe Pesci?

• 5:36David Sims?

  And yet they just found him randomly.

• 5:38Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 5:38David Sims?

  Like, we'll talk about it.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  So, so, well, De Niro watches this thing and goes, I bet I would have incredible chemistry with that actor.

• 5:48Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 5:48Speaker 02

  And they meet and they have legendary, immediate chemistry that then they're thrusting on to film.

• 5:58David Sims?

  Right. But carries through other films.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  You know how, that is so strange-

• 6:03Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 6:03Speaker 02

  That that, that De Niro intuited that.

• 6:07Griffin Newman?

  Well, especially he is the guy at this moment. He is like the new Brando.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:12Griffin Newman?

  He's already gotten one Oscar.

• 6:14Speaker 02

  He's done Taxi Driver, Mean Streets-

• 6:17Griffin Newman?

  Deer Hunter.

• 6:18Speaker 02

  Deer Hunter and The Godfather Two.

• 6:20Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 6:21Speaker 02

  So he is the guy.

• 6:22Griffin Newman?

  He's the guy. He's, it's undisputed.

• 6:25Speaker 02

  The confidence is through the roof.

• 6:29Griffin Newman?

  He could get anyone to play his brother.

• 6:30Speaker 02

  Could get anyone to play his brother and steamroll them.

• 6:33Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  And the movie's watchable.

• 6:36Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. And he goes, I'm gonna let this little guy fucking chew me out.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  Oh, it's amazing. Yeah. Amazing.

• 6:41Griffin Newman?

  Joseph Pesci.

• 6:42David Sims?

  Mm-hmm. Oscar nominee for this film?

• 6:44Griffin Newman?

  Sure that little Joey can sing. I think that was the name of his album, wasn't it?

• 6:47David Sims?

  Little Joe sure can sing.

• 6:49Griffin Newman?

  Little Joe sure can sing.

• 6:50David Sims?

  That was his album.

• 6:51Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 6:52David Sims?

  Griffin, what's this podcast?

• 6:53Griffin Newman?

  This podcast is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin.

• 6:56David Sims?

  I'm David.

• 6:58David Sims?

  I said I'm David.

• 6:59Griffin Newman?

  You kissed my wife? You kissed my wife? You kissed my wife on the mouth, David? David's laughing.

• 7:05David Sims?

  Sorry.

• 7:07Griffin Newman?

  Kiss my wife?

• 7:08David Sims?

  I would just not want to hang out with Jake Lemata. I'll just say it.

• 7:12Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 7:12David Sims?

  I just, I don't think I'd find him very charming.

• 7:15Griffin Newman?

  Crummy, we just did, uh, New York, New York, which will have come out the week before this, right?

• 7:20Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:21Griffin Newman?

  Correct? Cause Last Waltz is in between. Last Waltz, controversially, we're doing on Patreon. I'm sorry. He's got too many documentaries. But, um, I made the argument that Jimmy Doyle is of all the Scorsese, De Niro characters, that's the last one you want to date.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  Um, hmm.

• 7:37Griffin Newman?

  Now, watching this movie, I was, I was questioning it. I was weighing.

• 7:40David Sims?

  I mean Rupert Pupkin is-

• 7:42Griffin Newman?

  Rupert Pupkin's not great.

• 7:44David Sims?

  Yeah, but he's gonna, what he's, you know, he's gonna annoy you to death.

• 7:47Griffin Newman?

  He's gonna annoy you to death. Yes.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  I mean, Lemata though.

• 7:51Griffin Newman?

  Lemata, Lemata, there's some risk. There's some occupational hazard. Yeah, yeah.

• 7:55David Sims?

  He's a very, very tough customer.

• 7:56Griffin Newman?

  He is.

• 7:57David Sims?

  Um, no, but like, we were kind of talking about how Jimmy is so uncharismatic on top of everything. Like, you know, that he's-

• 8:04Griffin Newman?

  No redeeming qualities.

• 8:05David Sims?

  Right. He's very, very tough to imagine why you'd be around him in any sense. But Lemata is similar, but I guess he has some swagger to him initially that you sort of can like, you can see.

• 8:16Speaker 02

  And, and that's what's brilliant about this film.

• 8:19Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  Is we're presenting an animal.

• 8:22Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm. Yes.

• 8:23Speaker 02

  We're telling people that he's an animal and yet-

• 8:28Griffin Newman?

  A raging bull, if you will.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  A raging bull. And yet, they find a genuine humanity-

• 8:34Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  In this guy. And there are, he has three kids. He has moments of being a peaceful to some extent, person.

• 8:44Griffin Newman?

  He just wants to be a comedian. That's all he wants.

• 8:46Speaker 02

  You know, all this stuff.

• 8:47Griffin Newman?

  He's like Rupert Pupkin in that sense.

• 8:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that's such a ridiculously fine line to make work, that only De Niro can do it. And- What are you, what, what, what were you doing in that first screening of this film? Sitting in the audience?

• 9:06Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 9:07Speaker 02

  How confused were you about what you were being asked?

• 9:12Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 9:13Speaker 02

  Based on your cinematic knowledge up until nineteen eighty? What you were being asked to feel as an audience member about this guy?

• 9:22Griffin Newman?

  Well, even that was Scorsese's reluctance to making the movie of like, who cares about this fucking guy? I don't like this guy. I don't want to spend time with this guy.

• 9:30David Sims?

  Right.

• 9:30Griffin Newman?

  This guy's unpleasant. He's a bore.

• 9:33David Sims?

  Yes.

• 9:33Griffin Newman?

  In both spellings.

• 9:35David Sims?

  Sure, sure. Right? So three spellings?

• 9:38Speaker 02

  Oh, boy.

• 9:39Griffin Newman?

  Uh, sure.

• 9:40David Sims?

  B O O R, B O R E, B O A R.

• 9:43Griffin Newman?

  Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  He's got them all.

• 9:46David Sims?

  It's an incredibly watchable film, given how tough it is to watch. I guess is the way to, you know, that's the sort of Scorsese thing.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  Timeless film.

• 9:52David Sims?

  Yes.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  That elevated the art.

• 9:55Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 9:56Speaker 02

  Especially of the biopic specifically, which was not really a thing that much.

• 10:02Griffin Newman?

  And was a very limited thing. I think it existed in a very specific vein.

• 10:05Speaker 02

  Sort of creates the, the map for what a biopic in an ideal way would be.

• 10:12David Sims?

  The modern bio.

• 10:13Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 10:13David Sims?

  Because there's obviously, there's, there's the old boring Hollywood, like the story of Louis Pasteur.

• 10:19Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 10:19David Sims?

  Or, you know, like that kind of like.

• 10:20Griffin Newman?

  Pride of the Yankees kind of stuff. Yeah.

• 10:22David Sims?

  Where it's like, meet this nice guy.

• 10:24Speaker 02

  That I say.

• 10:24Griffin Newman?

  Nice guy.

• 10:25Speaker 02

  This at this moment, which is that it is truly an honor to talk about this film. Thank you so much for asking me to talk about this film because I, there's only a small handful of films that I bow to.

• 10:37Griffin Newman?

  This is one of them.

• 10:38Speaker 02

  Oh, yes.

• 10:39Griffin Newman?

  What else is in a handful?

• 10:41Speaker 02

  Oh, God. Let's not start because we're going to get into territory where.

• 10:45Griffin Newman?

  It's a big hand.

• 10:46Speaker 02

  No, it's a small hand.

• 10:48Griffin Newman?

  What's in the hand?

• 10:49Speaker 02

  You know, there's a couple other Scorsese's in there and a couple other, you know, there's some couple Spike Lee's and Spielberg's and Kubrick's and, you know, that kind of thing. Um, but I'm, it, this is one for the ages. It completely validates the entire art form of cinema. I mean, it really does. And, and all that, all the people that work to make great cinema happen.

• 11:14Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 11:14Speaker 02

  And it ends in such a meta way. It's, it's akin to what Tarantino later did in Inglourious Basterds.

• 11:24Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 11:24Speaker 02

  Where the final line is, I believe this is my masterpiece.

• 11:27Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 11:28Speaker 02

  It, it, it essentially, you know, Scorsese does that in this film and says, this is my masterpiece.

• 11:34Griffin Newman?

  It's also him thinking it's the last movie he's ever going to make, or certainly the last studio movie he's ever going to make. I think as much as he's calling a shot, it's because he thinks it's the last chance he has to call a shot.

• 11:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 11:46Griffin Newman?

  I should say this is a podcast about filmography, as directors who have massive success early on in their careers. This is the compulsion. I must say the full thing.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  No, yeah, but orientate people to what the hell we're talking about.

• 11:56Griffin Newman?

  This is many people's first episode, I'm sure. Uh, directors who have massive success early on in their careers, such as Taxi Driver, and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby, like New York, New York, which he is coming straight off of. And is the biggest bounce of his career. Uh, this is a mini series on the films of Martin Scorsese. It is called Podcast Fellas. We are the titular Podcast Fellas. Today we are talking Raging Bull with returning guest, the Raging Bull himself, David Krumholtz.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  Now, that's the sound of me, Ray, of like snorting.

• 12:32David Sims?

  You're not from the Bronx. You're from Queens, right?

• 12:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:35David Sims?

  So you could be the Queens Bull.

• 12:36Griffin Newman?

  You can.

• 12:36David Sims?

  Bronx Bull.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  I, yeah, I guess so.

• 12:39David Sims?

  Yeah, you're rejecting it. It's fine.

• 12:40Speaker 02

  Just because of the name Queen, I, there's always a feminine.

• 12:43David Sims?

  Sure.

• 12:44Speaker 02

  Uh, I, I, so what's the feminine version of a bull? Uh, cow? Cow.

• 12:50David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 12:50Griffin Newman?

  The Queen's cow?

• 12:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:52David Sims?

  Well, let's think of the alliteration too. What's an animal with a Q?

• 12:56Griffin Newman?

  Well, you're getting into tricky territory now, Ben.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's tough.

• 12:59Griffin Newman?

  What animals do exist with Q?

• 13:01David Sims?

  Quail.

• 13:02Griffin Newman?

  Quail.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  Oh, the quail.

• 13:04Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 13:05Speaker 02

  Queen's quail. I like that.

• 13:06Griffin Newman?

  You're smiling.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. What kind of noises do they make?

• 13:11David Sims?

  Probably a little, right, some kind of.

• 13:15Griffin Newman?

  The Queen's quail gets in the ring.

• 13:16David Sims?

  Yeah, there's a lot of others. There's the Quokka.

• 13:19Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, the Quokka.

• 13:20David Sims?

  Uh, which is kind of like a weird little like furry guy, little marsupial.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's an, uh.

• 13:26David Sims?

  It's like an Australian down, down under animal. Have you been to Australia?

• 13:30Speaker 02

  I have.

• 13:30David Sims?

  You've made a movie or two and I feel like they shoot them down there.

• 13:33Speaker 02

  Last year that, that takes place in New Jersey and we shot it in Melbourne, Australia.

• 13:38Griffin Newman?

  That's Hollywood three point O.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  That sure is.

• 13:41David Sims?

  There it is. We've coined Hollywood three point O today for, to describe just like the fucking nonsense that goes on day to day.

• 13:47Griffin Newman?

  Hollywood three point O.

• 13:49David Sims?

  Uh, what was the New Jersey movie? What the heck?

• 13:52Speaker 02

  It's a movie that's coming out on Christmas Day.

• 13:54Griffin Newman?

  Perfect.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  This year called Mr. Irrelevant.

• 13:56David Sims?

  Oh, yeah, with, um, with, um, Superman and phone.

• 14:00Griffin Newman?

  It's supposed to be very good. It's testing off the charts, says Hollywood three point O.

• 14:03Speaker 02

  It is actually testing off the charts.

• 14:05Griffin Newman?

  It actually is.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. John Tuggle story.

• 14:08David Sims?

  I think we need more sports movies. I think it's a, it's a gap.

• 14:10Griffin Newman?

  I'm amped for this movie.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  Jonathan Levine directed.

• 14:13Griffin Newman?

  The director.

• 14:14Speaker 02

  Absolutely beautiful. I hear it's like there's, it's a, it's a wonderful film going experience.

• 14:21Griffin Newman?

  I have truly heard this. We have friends who were at a CinemaCon where they showed off a large chunk of it and people were like elevating.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:27Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 14:27David Sims?

  I.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  It's, it's, it's.

• 14:29Griffin Newman?

  Levitating.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  I think it's the darkest of the dark horses for Oscars this year.

• 14:33Griffin Newman?

  Well, well, well. They called him Mr. Irrelevant and yet.

• 14:36David Sims?

  Michael Shannon's in it, right? Playing Bill Parcells.

• 14:38Speaker 02

  Shannon is playing Bill Parcells.

• 14:40David Sims?

  That is casting that makes a lot of sense to me.

• 14:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  And I have a little sneaky, funny, good role in it.

• 14:46Griffin Newman?

  What are you, what are you playing at?

• 14:47Speaker 02

  None of your business. No, I play, um, shut the fuck up. So it.

• 14:51Griffin Newman?

  What's it to you? You're trying to blow my campaign?

• 14:53Speaker 02

  So it's about the New York Giants. The New York Giants in nineteen eighty-three. They had an equipment manager, uh, who was with them for at least thirty years, I think, named Whitey.

• 15:02Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  Whitey.

• 15:04Griffin Newman?

  Good.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  And, you know, for, I, the chance to play a Whitey for me.

• 15:07Griffin Newman?

  You need one, one in your, in your cap.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so, uh, Whitey had retired and was kind of listless. They have this young player who gets diagnosed with, you know, questionably survivable cancer. Is likely going to croak. It's awful. It's tragic. He's twenty-one or twenty-two years old. And, uh, they call, they decide, the NFL and the Giants decide to do everything they possibly can to save this kid's life, to try. And, uh, pay for it all. And they call Whitey and they go, what are you doing? And he's like, ah, missing, you know, I'm missing the, uh, the action of being part of the team.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  And they go, how about you, will you drive this kid to all his appointments? So this older man who's retired becomes this kid's chauffeur and watches him slowly die.

• 16:05Griffin Newman?

  That's a good part.

• 16:06Speaker 02

  It's a good part. Um, I enjoyed myself.

• 16:09David Sims?

  Bill Parcells, uh, you know what they called him?

• 16:11Griffin Newman?

  Hmm.

• 16:11David Sims?

  Griff.

• 16:12Griffin Newman?

  Mr. Irrelevant?

• 16:12David Sims?

  No. The big tuna. One of, one of the great sports names of all time.

• 16:16Griffin Newman?

  Why did he get that in hand?

• 16:18David Sims?

  I'm not really sure where the name came from. Uh, famously Bill's, Bill Parcells looked a lot like my dad and people would mistake my dad for Bill Parcells.

• 16:27Speaker 02

  I can see that looking at you a little bit.

• 16:28David Sims?

  Famous, like, you know, when I was a kid, like he was the coach of the Giants and then he was the, didn't he, wasn't he the coach of the Jets for a minute? Like he was, yeah, he was a New York figure.

• 16:37Griffin Newman?

  This was my father, of course, New York in the eighties with Howie Mandel.

• 16:41Speaker 02

  Your father, your father looked like Howie Mandel?

• 16:43David Sims?

  His father, uh, you know, when his dad had the curly hair and Howie had the curly hair, I can see.

• 16:48Griffin Newman?

  We will post on social media.

• 16:50Speaker 02

  Hello.

• 16:51Griffin Newman?

  Over the head.

• 16:51Speaker 02

  Over the head.

• 16:52Griffin Newman?

  We will post on social media the side by side of Howie Mandel in this era and my father, but people would kind of raging bull style be like, Hey, Mandel, you big timing me?

• 17:00Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 17:01Griffin Newman?

  Oh, you think you're too good for your fans, Mandel?

• 17:03Speaker 02

  You know who my dad looked like?

• 17:04Griffin Newman?

  Who?

• 17:05Speaker 02

  Son of Sam.

• 17:06Griffin Newman?

  That is, that's a good one. That's a helpful one.

• 17:08Speaker 02

  Literally was from Queens, lived in the same neighborhood.

• 17:11David Sims?

  And dogs talk to him.

• 17:13Speaker 02

  And David Berkowitz was a mailman and so was my dad. Yeah. The only difference was that Berkowitz had blue eyes and my dad had brown.

• 17:21Griffin Newman?

  I can think of one other difference.

• 17:22David Sims?

  Also, he didn't commit murder.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  Well, there's that.

• 17:24Griffin Newman?

  That's the difference I was thinking of.

• 17:26David Sims?

  How good a mailman was David Berkowitz?

• 17:28Speaker 02

  Bad. I have to imagine.

• 17:29David Sims?

  I can't imagine he was very good.

• 17:31Griffin Newman?

  I probably ate the letters, right?

• 17:32Speaker 02

  Hmm. I don't know if he was an, a, a, a paper eater. Uh, I have recurring dreams, coincidentally, in which I'm pulling large pieces, I'm in public in a situation where I need to talk to people.

• 17:46Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  And in the dreams, I'm pulling endless amounts of paper, chewed up paper out of my mouth.

• 17:53Griffin Newman?

  Oh, it's in there already.

• 17:54Speaker 02

  It's in there already and I have to stop. And they're very vivid, realistic dreams. I have to stop and pull paper out of, in between my teeth, out of my throat. Oh. And then I looked up like what those mean and I think they said something like, you know, obviously they're anxiety dreams, but something to the, of like, you have something you, you need to get off your chest.

• 18:16David Sims?

  Something unspoken.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:18Griffin Newman?

  You need to read what's on the paper. That's the answer. That's how you resolve the dreams.

• 18:21Speaker 02

  Chewed up, man. It's all bits of paper.

• 18:23Griffin Newman?

  Unfold it, piece it back together, take a blow dryer.

• 18:25Speaker 02

  We're talking about mulch.

• 18:28Griffin Newman?

  We're talking about mulch.

• 18:29David Sims?

  But in Inception, you know, that's, you always write, like, that's, it's like, you always have to find like the weird papers in your dream. And that's like where the secret is.

• 18:37Griffin Newman?

  Right. And that's how you come up with a great idea to retire and let someone else run your dad's business.

• 18:41David Sims?

  Chris Nolan, you should text him every time you have a weird dream being like, hey, Inception guy, explain this dream.

• 18:46Griffin Newman?

  You do this?

• 18:47Speaker 02

  I don't have any way of contacting.

• 18:49David Sims?

  Well, because he doesn't have a goddamn phone, right?

• 18:50Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, he doesn't have.

• 18:51Speaker 02

  Well, beyond that, I don't think, uh, Chris would want to.

• 18:55Griffin Newman?

  Oh, you gave a phenomenal performance.

• 18:57Speaker 02

  It, I don't think that matters, uh, to, to, to him or me, to be honest with you.

• 19:06David Sims?

  I just think it would be funny if it's like when you know a doctor.

• 19:09Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 19:09David Sims?

  And you're like, hey, look at this mole or you know, like, hey, Chris, you did inception. What's this dream mean anyway?

• 19:14Griffin Newman?

  People's weird dreams.

• 19:15David Sims?

  Yeah. Uh, David Krumholtz is here.

• 19:18Griffin Newman?

  David Krumholtz is here.

• 19:19David Sims?

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:20Griffin Newman?

  Okay. The last time you were on the show, we talked about Scent of a Woman, who is, you know, we're talking the other giant of this era.

• 19:27David Sims?

  Well, you're gay. We're, he's talking the other best actor.

• 19:30Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 19:30David Sims?

  You know, he did Pacino's best actor trophy and this is De Niro's best actor trophy.

• 19:34Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 19:34David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 19:35Speaker 02

  I wouldn't call Pacino the only other giant. I think, I think there's a triumvirate.

• 19:40Griffin Newman?

  You're right.

• 19:41David Sims?

  Who's the third?

• 19:42Speaker 02

  Hoffman.

• 19:42David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 19:43Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 19:43David Sims?

  Of that era.

• 19:44Speaker 02

  Of that era.

• 19:45Griffin Newman?

  Those are the three guys who are chasing each other.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  Those are the three, and they're, they're rewriting the rules of acting.

• 19:49David Sims?

  Yes. And there are three guys who I feel like a generation prior Hollywood would have been like, well, you're not a movie star. Like you don't, you don't have the look of a movie star. Right.

• 19:57Griffin Newman?

  They look like a butcher.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  Right. They are ethnic American.

• 20:00David Sims?

  Ethnic, they're small, they're kind of like, they got, they're handsome, but they got kind of funny faces, right? You know, they're not conventional.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Those movies, do they make, well, maybe The Graduate, but do they make, uh, Midnight Cowboy, Raging Bull? And let's say Serpico today.

• 20:19Griffin Newman?

  Not really.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  No, or Dog Day, yeah. They don't.

• 20:22David Sims?

  Raging Bull is the closest in that like Hollywood will still respond to.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  Cause it's a boxing movie, right?

• 20:27David Sims?

  And a like a true story, real person movie. What if it was Serpico, maybe? That feels like a TV show.

• 20:35Griffin Newman?

  Definitely is a TV. The answer is that all three of those things would be TV shows now.

• 20:39David Sims?

  You know?

• 20:39Griffin Newman?

  Which is a shame.

• 20:40David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 20:40Griffin Newman?

  Um, I, I think there is sort of like a Mount Rushmore of the, the male acting performances, the leading male performances. That people like lose their minds over, that are sort of held up as the highest, right?

• 20:55David Sims?

  Right. So Scent of a Woman is number one.

• 20:57Griffin Newman?

  Scent of a Woman is number one. Number two is Scent of a Woman, Chris O'Donnell.

• 21:01David Sims?

  Right. That's right.

• 21:02Griffin Newman?

  Yes. Uh, no, I think, I think it's like, it's Raging Bull.

• 21:05Speaker 02

  It's Raging Bull for sure.

• 21:06Griffin Newman?

  I think it's if you combine the two Godfather, Pacino performances.

• 21:11David Sims?

  Sure.

• 21:12Griffin Newman?

  Right. Or you could pick either one.

• 21:13Speaker 02

  No, definitely not. You're way off now.

• 21:15Griffin Newman?

  Really?

• 21:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. You're getting crazy.

• 21:16Griffin Newman?

  What do you think?

• 21:17Speaker 02

  Jimmy Stewart and It's a Wonderful Life or.

• 21:20Griffin Newman?

  Well, that's quite a good performance.

• 21:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um.

• 21:22Griffin Newman?

  I think Denzel and Malcolm X is in it.

• 21:24Speaker 02

  Denzel, Malcolm X, absolutely.

• 21:28Griffin Newman?

  Are we, are we talking Streetcar? Are we talking on the waterfront?

• 21:30Speaker 02

  You know, you kind of have to put Brando.

• 21:32Griffin Newman?

  I think you kind of have to.

• 21:33David Sims?

  I think it's probably on the waterfront.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  Hmm. God almighty. I'm going to go Nicholson, Cuckoo's Nest.

• 21:39David Sims?

  Jack is sort of outside, you know, like, and as is Pacino.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  An ethnic American. He's straight down the middle.

• 21:45Griffin Newman?

  He's straight down the middle.

• 21:46David Sims?

  No. Yeah, that's true. What is, in fact, what is Jack Nicholson's?

• 21:49Griffin Newman?

  Isn't he Irish?

• 21:51David Sims?

  I don't know.

• 21:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would imagine.

• 21:52Griffin Newman?

  Yes. New Jersey's on.

• 21:54David Sims?

  Mm hmm. Uh, but we're not here to talk about Jack Nicholson.

• 21:57Griffin Newman?

  We're not. No.

• 21:58David Sims?

  Uh, Irish, German, English and Welsh descent. Fair enough.

• 22:01Griffin Newman?

  This is still a performance that people use as shorthand.

• 22:04Speaker 02

  Oh, 100%.

• 22:06David Sims?

  I think this is the number one. Yes.

• 22:08Griffin Newman?

  You know?

• 22:09Speaker 02

  I saw this film when I was 21 for the first time.

• 22:12Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 22:14Speaker 02

  It changed everything for me because up until that point, I had only really wanted to do comedy, do comedy, done comedy. There was no, I, or, or, you know, cartoonish character shit. Suddenly I watched this film and thought, I could do that. I don't know how.

• 22:34Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 22:35Speaker 02

  But if I just try.

• 22:36Griffin Newman?

  You want to do that.

• 22:37Speaker 02

  Like, uh, trying.

• 22:40Griffin Newman?

  The goal has changed.

• 22:41Speaker 02

  To do that.

• 22:41Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 22:42Speaker 02

  If I could do 10% of the immersion and the intimacy and the intensity of what De Niro did in Raging Bull. If I could do 10%, I would get dramatic jobs.

• 22:55Griffin Newman?

  The intimacy thing is fascinating.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  It, it, it's just an outrageously monolithic performance.

• 23:03Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  It's arguably the greatest lead performance ever.

• 23:08David Sims?

  That is very arguable.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:10David Sims?

  I think, I mean.

• 23:11Griffin Newman?

  No one's going to call you crazy for saying that.

• 23:13David Sims?

  Certainly not.

• 23:14Griffin Newman?

  It's, it's a reasonable opinion.

• 23:15David Sims?

  I also think it's something where you, I have the experience of like, I watched this film. I was very struck by it as a young man. Or, you know, like, obviously it's a totemic film and it's a top, and then you sort of.

• 23:26Griffin Newman?

  Back when you were a featherweight.

• 23:28David Sims?

  I've never been a featherweight, unfortunately.

• 23:30Griffin Newman?

  Sorry.

• 23:32David Sims?

  I hit this height when I was 13. I've always been a big boy.

• 23:34Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 23:35David Sims?

  Um, and then you, you know, you have a few years from it and you're like, oh, well, but isn't that, it's just him screaming and yelling, isn't it? Then you watch the movie again. You're like, I forgot how good this movie, like, and how good, like, and I forgot how it's not whatever the stereotype.

• 23:49Griffin Newman?

  I think intimacy is the word. You said it. That's the whole, that's the magic factor. It's the volcanic stuff you're, you know.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  Let me bring my, let me bring my bantamweight perspective to this.

• 23:59Griffin Newman?

  Sure. Perfect.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  Okay. God damn it. The sound editing in this film.

• 24:04Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  Is a new roadmap suddenly for all sound editing going forward.

• 24:11Speaker 02

  The intimacy of the sound of that film, there is no film that sounds like Raging Bull to this day. There are attempts, but there, so you are as an audience member being whispered to.

• 24:27Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  You're being shouted at.

• 24:29Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 24:30Speaker 02

  They're speaking to your soul. It's, it, it brilliant sound editing.

• 24:36Griffin Newman?

  Do you know the thing that?

• 24:38Speaker 02

  So much of it, by the way, is ADR, clearly.

• 24:40Griffin Newman?

  Yes. Oh, yes. But that Marty drove everyone crazy because he insisted that every punch, every flashbulb be a unique sound. That they not repeat any specific sounds. Which a lot of it's like fully work and it's over the top in a certain way.

• 24:54Speaker 02

  And the context, you know, when he's in Miami with, at his house and he asks the photographer to take a picture, that, thank you for us, for us. Get in here, sweetheart. And they surround him and the moment the first flash goes off, you hear one of his children scream.

• 25:09Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 25:09Speaker 02

  You're, ah, oh my God. Just whatever standard film had come to just Scorsese manipulating the shit out of what was before to create something incredibly profound and new.

• 25:29Griffin Newman?

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna go even one higher than you. I think this movie is very well directed. When I was watching it, I said, who is the Scorsese kid?

• 25:38David Sims?

  Um, yes.

• 25:40Speaker 02

  And Chapman is DP.

• 25:42Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  There's not a frame in this movie that isn't a painting.

• 25:47David Sims?

  It didn't win the Oscar, which it's, you know, the Oscars are not the end of the world, but it's shocking. Yeah. For cinematography.

• 25:54Speaker 02

  What did?

• 25:54David Sims?

  Tess, the Polanski film, which I'm sure Jeffrey Unsworth, like, I'm sure had gorgeous vistas of the Moors, right? You know, like, I'm sure that is a, in my dim memory, a pretty movie.

• 26:08Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 26:08David Sims?

  But this is one of those things where one, you can show five seconds of Raging Bull in some clip package.

• 26:15Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 26:15David Sims?

  As you see all the time in these kind of De Niro, ah, or, you know, you'll see him rolled out at award shows or on TV. And you're just, you lean forward.

• 26:24Griffin Newman?

  And any shot.

• 26:25David Sims?

  Cannot believe how this movie.

• 26:26Griffin Newman?

  An insert shot would get that response.

• 26:28David Sims?

  And.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  Why black and white? Do we have theories?

• 26:31David Sims?

  Oh, we can talk about it. I'm sure that'll be in the research because I think there was a lot of reasons for the black and white. Um, and just, no one's made a sports movie look this good. I don't know what's productive to call it a sports movie. But no one's made like boxing look like this ever again. And just the, with the smoke and the, you know, just that you're in his mind in there.

• 26:51Speaker 02

  Well, yeah.

• 26:52David Sims?

  And theater of it and the, the sort of just the slaughterhouse of it. What were you going to say?

• 26:56Speaker 02

  No, the contrast of how beautifully lit, almost theatrically lit. The boxing matches are with the crudeness of how the rest of it is. The natural light through, through it all.

• 27:11David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  It's just.

• 27:13Griffin Newman?

  Well, the key to this movie is, you know, Marty said, I don't want to do this. I don't get this. And De Niro kept on insisting, we'll get into this in depth, but then he finally figured out, he was like, oh, boxing's a metaphor. Boxing doesn't matter. I can't think of this as a boxing movie. It's about getting in the ring. It's about whatever that thing is in your life.

• 27:31Speaker 02

  And let's face it, Scorsese doesn't need to be directed with, but this is the movie where he lets De Niro sort of direct.

• 27:40David Sims?

  They're collaborating.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  They're clearly, this is, this is a 50 50 job.

• 27:44David Sims?

  Yes. In fact, I can open the dossier.

• 27:46Speaker 02

  The trust is through the roof. What require, what is required of De Niro? See, I'm now going to watch, behold, as I marry this into a discussion about AI.

• 27:57David Sims?

  Perfect. Let's do it.

• 27:58Speaker 02

  What's required.

• 27:59Griffin Newman?

  Cause AI could have done this movie. We agree.

• 28:01Speaker 02

  What's required of De Niro is this genuine raw soul searching, sort of an access that he is displaying to his own emotional nuance. His, his, the, the complicated levels of who De Niro is as a person, who an actor should be as a person, right? Someone who emulates humanity in nuanced fashion. That arguably no actor before, after had. And to give of that, to bear himself raw.

• 28:36Speaker 02

  He had to have trained mentally for this, not just physically, right? And you know that this is all stuff you know as an audience member.

• 28:42Griffin Newman?

  And two different physical states.

• 28:43Speaker 02

  And two different physical states.

• 28:45Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 28:45Speaker 02

  One misshapen.

• 28:46Griffin Newman?

  Yes. Which is also two different mental states married to those. Yeah.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  And the confidence, the nearest confidence, who's 36 at this point, when he makes this movie.

• 28:55Griffin Newman?

  That's disgusting.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  He's playing a 19 year old though.

• 28:58Griffin Newman?

  Yes. Right, right.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  Essentially at the beginning.

• 29:01Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  Um, it's through the roof and the uniqueness of De Niro that he has to face and live with. The burden of De Niro's uniqueness.

• 29:12Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  Applied to the uniqueness of Jake LaMotta. And there is no way, and you know this watching it, there is no way that De Niro is not in some sort of existential pain playing this character.

• 29:29Griffin Newman?

  Yes. And also there's something clearly that drew him to it.

• 29:33Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 29:34Griffin Newman?

  That he needed to express.

• 29:35David Sims?

  He couldn't really shake. Yes.

• 29:37Speaker 02

  Is a sacrifice and a half that he's, and he's giving, it's giving, it's constant giving. Now, you have to be human to understand the true depth of not only the performance, but of the film. You have to be, right?

• 29:51Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  Now here's where I married into AI.

• 29:54Griffin Newman?

  Let's do it.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  Who on, would you, you don't want to watch, uh, an AI basketball game, do you? Why would anyone?

• 30:00David Sims?

  Why do we watch sports? Right. Yeah.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  We watch sports because it's human beings, which we are doing what we can't do. Okay?

• 30:10Speaker 02

  You cannot expect AI to make an impact with audiences in a way that film can. Film, I mean, real, I should say, real people can, humans can, um, on film.

• 30:25Speaker 02

  Because the audience is human. Everybody's talking about, when they have these arguments about AI, they go, you know, well, what's the difference between a human actor and an AI actor? And AI will learn from what humans do. Everyone discounts the audience. The audience is human. It can only empathize with humanity.

• 30:45David Sims?

  Well, and that's the challenge of Raging Bull is like, it's not like, I want you to understand that Jake LaMotta is a good guy, or even that Jake LaMotta is sympathetic in a way of like, you know, here's why he behaved this way. It's not a like, don't you understand Jake LaMotta just had a talk? And that's why he was such a piece of shit. It's not that. It's more just, you need to look at this darkness and this, you know.

• 31:07Griffin Newman?

  He existed. This exists. This is part of the human existence.

• 31:10David Sims?

  And, right, and understand the nightmare of the human spectrum that he was on and that there's something to relate to, which is true Taxi Driver 2. That makes it all the more compelling. Like, you know, that you're like, there's something to relate to, even though he's a fairly despicable person pretty much all the time.

• 31:26Griffin Newman?

  And also that there's like a sacrifice here, not just in the characters, but in the making of this movie. That is a thing that AI can ever experience. I mean, this is, the conversation right now, I just think it's like, it was such a good fucking knockout punch, is just like, everyone flipping their shit over The Odyssey. Everyone circles back to the same thing, which is like, this looked really difficult to make.

• 31:48David Sims?

  Sure.

• 31:49Griffin Newman?

  This was not easy, and I'm appreciating the sacrifice and the effort of this, and I want to see it on the biggest screen. And it's like, that's a fucking knockout punch. The people who want to watch AI shit don't want to pay for it.

• 32:01David Sims?

  It's not just AI. It's also just, you know, the, the, the years we went through of people being like, eh, no one wants the movie experience anymore. You know, like, that's being refuted is lovely.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  You know, Scorsese is not an insular filmmaker, right?

• 32:17Griffin Newman?

  He's referential.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  But so many, you know, because, well, because he himself is a cinema expert, right? But so many filmmakers make movies, quote unquote, they say this, for themselves. You know, you've got to make the movie for yourself, be happy with it, and then the audience will love it. No. Scorsese goes, I'm the audience for my own film. I am all kinds of versions of that audience. I am the highfalutin, highbrow, erudite guy sitting in the back row, and I'm also the kid in the front row.

• 32:47David Sims?

  Right.

• 32:48Speaker 02

  And what can satisfy everyone? And he's anticipating how the audience will feel. And he's literally framing shots and directing scenes from that perspective. The greatest trick that Scorsese pulls in this film is challenging the audience, like, what in the world are they supposed to be feeling?

• 33:11Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 33:11Speaker 02

  You know, Taxi Driver is a straight drama.

• 33:15Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  Right? Okay, now this movie, it's a brutal comedy. It's a funny tragedy.

• 33:22Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 33:24Speaker 02

  It's, it's so many things in stark contrast. It's comedy, love, family, bonds, violence, paranoia, sympathy, rage, disgust, sorrow, uh, horror, uh, you know, peace, triumph, success, ego, tranquility, the burden of ambition, you know? And ultimately, it's the story, it's exactly what it should be, which is the story of one life, to tell a story about the pugilistic nature of all lives and all life.

• 33:54Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 33:54David Sims?

  And just.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  It, what, what an undertaking. And if he fucks it up, and he didn't even think he should make the movie.

• 34:02Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  And if he fucks this up, people are come out of the theater going, that director is a psychotic person.

• 34:08David Sims?

  And his career is a, like, or close to it, because his career is already in a little bit of trouble. And it's sort of like, right, you know, why'd he do that? I think the fact that he doesn't really care about sports, which he's very upfront about, matters a lot in the movie too, because I like sports movies. Like, I like a schematic sports movie just fine. Like, I enjoy an underdog story. I enjoy this shit. But, you know, so many sports movies lock into like, okay, well, we need to see where he initially succeeded, then he was brought low with this battle. And like, his biggest triumph in this movie in the ring is like grinning like a freak at Sugar Ray Robinson, being like, you didn't knock me down. And Sugar Ray Robinson's just like, what? Okay?

• 34:49Griffin Newman?

  That's not a win.

• 34:50David Sims?

  Right. And it's just like.

• 34:52Griffin Newman?

  You literally lost.

• 34:54David Sims?

  That he's so separated from whatever the point of boxing is at that, you know, moment in life. And like, at no point is there like the scene where someone's like, you did it! Here's the belt! Like, you know, like, the arc of his career is this sort of like, just this dim noise in the movie at best.

• 35:10Griffin Newman?

  I also think there's a core thing.

• 35:11David Sims?

  He buys a building at one point?

• 35:13Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 35:13David Sims?

  And they're like, from fights? And he's like, mm, mm. And you're like, Jesus, he's the fucking landlord? Like, this guy? He can't be served a steak without having a panic attack.

• 35:23Griffin Newman?

  I also, I think the core thing this movie is about in a lot of ways is like, the thing you're great at being a detriment to every other aspect of your life.

• 35:33David Sims?

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:34Griffin Newman?

  Everything that makes him a good boxer.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  Well, if your ego, it's also about ego danger.

• 35:39Griffin Newman?

  Yes. If you don't have emotional intelligence.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 35:42Griffin Newman?

  Yes. If you're not in conversation with yourself. Yeah.

• 35:44Speaker 02

  Because he's a fighter.

• 35:46Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 35:46Speaker 02

  That's a great fighter.

• 35:48Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 35:48Speaker 02

  Who is able to piece together a pretty normal life on paper.

• 35:54Griffin Newman?

  On paper.

• 35:54Speaker 02

  He's got the kids, he's got the family. That's a big thing. But he becomes a clown.

• 36:00Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 36:01Speaker 02

  He becomes more than just an actual comedian slash clown. His life is a clownish.

• 36:07Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 36:08Speaker 02

  His whole life.

• 36:09Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 36:19Griffin Newman?

  David?

• 36:19David Sims?

  Yes?

• 36:20Griffin Newman?

  Mmm.

• 36:23David Sims?

  Is that the Cine's cow?

• 36:25Griffin Newman?

  The Cine's cow is back.

• 36:25David Sims?

  Haven't heard from her in a while.

• 36:27Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, she's reactivated because she's horny for chicken fingers.

• 36:32David Sims?

  Okay.

• 36:32Griffin Newman?

  And she's excited for the streaming debut of Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma.

• 36:37David Sims?

  Wow.

• 36:38Griffin Newman?

  The cow likes chicken.

• 36:40David Sims?

  Remember cow and chicken? Let's look it up. While you, while you tell the, the great listeners about the great stuff on movie.

• 36:46Griffin Newman?

  Well, MUBI is a global film company, bringing great cinema to the world and to you, curating and elevating visionary filmmaking, all handpicked, always. That's what MUBI does. Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma, one of my favorite movies of the year.

• 37:00David Sims?

  Absolutely.

• 37:01Griffin Newman?

  You can feel the rush now at home. There's a hole at the bottom of the lake where the movies come from.

• 37:06David Sims?

  That is a line in the movie.

• 37:08Griffin Newman?

  In the new movie from Jane Schomburg, Past and Future Guest.

• 37:10David Sims?

  Past and Future Guest, a great filmmaker, a great podcast guest, a great friend.

• 37:15Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 37:16David Sims?

  Um, this movie rocks. It's got, of course, it stars Hannah Einbinder and Gillian Anderson.

• 37:21Griffin Newman?

  Uh-huh.

• 37:21David Sims?

  You know, legends, and I tip my cap, but Zach Cherry.

• 37:24Griffin Newman?

  Performances, friend of the show.

• 37:25David Sims?

  Friend of the show, Zach Cherry.

• 37:27Griffin Newman?

  Zach Cherry.

• 37:28David Sims?

  Also in it.

• 37:29Griffin Newman?

  This is true.

• 37:30David Sims?

  Such a cool movie. Won the Queer Palm at Cannes. If you haven't heard about this movie, I don't know what's going on with you, but like, it obviously has, it was out in theaters, uh, this summer, and now it's on MUBI.

• 37:40Griffin Newman?

  Hannah Einbinder plays the filmmaker attempting to reboot the Camp Miasma franchise, trying to track down the original final girl from the first movie to, to make some sort of legacy sequel, who's played by Gillian Anderson, who lives at the summer camp.

• 37:54David Sims?

  Yes. And, you know, and then they hang out and it's regular.

• 37:58Griffin Newman?

  What happens? It's, it's one of those Hollywood's out of ideas. No, it's very much a movie about Hollywood being out of ideas while being, uh, an example of there still being new stories to tell.

• 38:10David Sims?

  It's now streaming exclusively on MUBI, and you can try MUBI free for 30 days at MUBI.com slash blank check. That's M U B I dot com slash blank check for a whole month of great cinema for free.

• 38:23Griffin Newman?

  They got so many great movies on there to watch, but worth it for 30 days for Miasma.

• 38:28David Sims?

  Damn right.

• 38:34Griffin Newman?

  David?

• 38:35David Sims?

  Yes?

• 38:35Griffin Newman?

  Nobody likes bank fees. Why would you like them?

• 38:39David Sims?

  When I was younger, I really would have benefited from a bank that did not charge me fees anytime I did anything, basically, which is, I feel like, what I was always dealing with.

• 38:49Griffin Newman?

  Chime. That's where Chime comes in. Chime.

• 38:52David Sims?

  They're changing the way people bank. They're not like traditional banks who charge fees and get keep perks and rewards. They offer the most rewarding fee-free banking, all with no overdraft fees, no monthly fees, and no minimum balance fees. Okay?

• 39:06Griffin Newman?

  We love being fee-free. We love it.

• 39:07David Sims?

  You're gonna get 5% cash back on a Chime card in a category of your choice, like gas or groceries.

• 39:13Griffin Newman?

  My two favorite things.

• 39:14David Sims?

  Uh, all while building credit through regular everyday spending with no credit check. And you can grow your money faster with a savings rate that's nine times the national average. And if you're ever in a pinch, SpotMe lets you overdraft up to $200 fee-free.

• 39:28Griffin Newman?

  Fee-free.

• 39:28David Sims?

  So join the millions who are already banking fee-free with America's number one choice for banking. Head to chime.com slash blank check. That is chime.com slash blank check. Sign up now. It only takes a few minutes.

• 39:43Speaker 03

  Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Qualifying direct deposits required. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com slash disclosures for details.

• 40:08David Sims?

  I'm gonna open the dossier to tell you some stuff about this.

• 40:11Griffin Newman?

  Can I just ask you one quick question before you open it? Did you fuck my wife?

• 40:14David Sims?

  Yes.

• 40:15Griffin Newman?

  Thank you. Okay, I just appreciate that's the answer.

• 40:17David Sims?

  I fucked your wife, I fucked your brother, I fucked you, whatever. Scorsese in the later half of the seventies is doing a lot of stuff. We addressed this to some extent on prior episode. On top of The Last Waltz in New York, New York, he even worked on a Broadway show called The Act with Liza Minnelli, who he was having an affair with at the time. He had no idea what he was doing. He was sort of soft fired. More kind of like, he agreed to step aside and let an experienced Broadway hand come in to kind of quote unquote fix things.

• 40:48Griffin Newman?

  He was also having a very sexually charged affair with cocaine, the drug.

• 40:51David Sims?

  He was doing a lot of drugs.

• 40:53Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 40:53David Sims?

  In nineteen seventy seven, he goes to the Telluride Film Festival, which is very early, to present an award to Michael Powell, one of his heroes, the great British director. And Michael Powell says to him like, my dear boy, what are you doing here? Aren't you working on a play? And Scorsese is like, that's when I realized like, I was not cut out for theater. I didn't understand, like, you know. At this point, he wants to make Gangs of New York. That's gonna take him a second, obviously.

• 41:22Griffin Newman?

  A little bit of time.

• 41:23David Sims?

  He makes American Boy, which we discussed in our Scorsese short episode.

• 41:26Griffin Newman?

  It's fascinating.

• 41:27David Sims?

  The profile of Stephen Prince.

• 41:29Griffin Newman?

  Have you ever seen that, Crumming?

• 41:30David Sims?

  No.

• 41:30Griffin Newman?

  It's very good.

• 41:31David Sims?

  Be intrigued by it.

• 41:32Griffin Newman?

  You would be very intrigued by it.

• 41:33David Sims?

  Okay.

• 41:33Griffin Newman?

  It's just him interviewing a guy who's got insane stories. And the adrenaline shot back from the dead from Pulp Fiction is stolen from that movie.

• 41:42David Sims?

  That is true. That's a story he tells. Yes.

• 41:44Griffin Newman?

  Wow.

• 41:45David Sims?

  And he's got Raging Bull, which is a movie he doesn't want to do, but De Niro has basically been trying to get him to do since nineteen seventy four. He came to him on the set of Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore and said, read this book by Jake LaMotta. I've like optioned it. There's some, some good scenes. He's an interesting character. De Niro, who is obviously a tough interview, in that when you ask him like, why'd you do Raging Bull? He's like, I don't know. It was interesting. You know, like, he's just, but he says like, I like the book because I thought it had some good scenes, to repeat this. A good scene is something that you think has a lot of dramatic possibilities and irony and humor and something that people can relate to.

• 42:25David Sims?

  It's a very simple and bland statement, but you can imagine, I guess, De Niro just reading the book and being like, well, this scenario is something I can play out in my head as something that would be very dramatically compelling.

• 42:36Griffin Newman?

  And even talking back to the sort of point of getting in this character's head and this sort of spiritual connection he was feeling. He like admits when he reads it, the book is poorly written.

• 42:46David Sims?

  Yes, even De Niro admits this.

• 42:48Griffin Newman?

  This book is bad, but.

• 42:50David Sims?

  Scorsese does not like the book.

• 42:51Griffin Newman?

  It's like a portal into this guy's brain. Like even I think the failings of the writing are telling him something as an actor that someone's gonna have to process dramatically into something that works as a story. But he's seeing the scenes and he's seeing the way this guy's brain works.

• 43:05Speaker 02

  De Niro.

• 43:06Griffin Newman?

  Robert.

• 43:07David Sims?

  Robert De Niro.

• 43:08Speaker 02

  Is the Joe DiMaggio of acting.

• 43:11David Sims?

  Please explain, as I'm a huge baseball fan.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  Joe DiMaggio had an amazing reputation for doing incredible things on the field, athletic things.

• 43:19David Sims?

  Right.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  But making them look easy.

• 43:20David Sims?

  Sure.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  To the point. De Niro is simple.

• 43:23Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, very simple.

• 43:25Speaker 02

  Deliberate.

• 43:25Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 43:26Speaker 02

  He, I don't think there are any firm choices in his style. I think he goes, he lives in the moment and is, and accesses whatever is necessary to tell the story. If any strategy goes into that, I'm sure there's some. And of course, extreme emotional intellect.

• 43:48Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 43:48Speaker 02

  Extreme.

• 43:49Griffin Newman?

  But hyper subtle.

• 43:50Speaker 02

  But it's natural.

• 43:51Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 43:51Speaker 02

  There's a nature to De Niro that acting wasn't allowed to have.

• 43:57Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 43:57Speaker 02

  Especially on film, up until really, until he came on the scene. You weren't, and maybe Brando, you could argue, but even Brando's a little like, you know, making deliberate choices and speechifying and you could almost say that Brando sort of had to fit the mold because he would have been so far ahead of his time that no one would have understood him. He would have, he wouldn't have worked.

• 44:17Griffin Newman?

  He needs to have one foot in the style of film at the time.

• 44:21Speaker 02

  But Brando now has laid the groundwork.

• 44:23Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  For De Niro to be as naturally simplistic, but also acrobatic.

• 44:30Griffin Newman?

  And also, yes.

• 44:32Speaker 02

  Had ever been. And I don't think there's been an actor since. Very few.

• 44:37Griffin Newman?

  It's hard to, I think there are people maybe who have gotten into that realm in a singular performance or in a brief period. I don't think there's someone who has a body of work that embodies what you're saying in the same way. I also think that he has always been so mysterious about his process for how much this is known as.

• 44:59David Sims?

  Sure, love it.

• 44:59Griffin Newman?

  You know, the Great Sacrifice movie and the Physical Transformation movie and all of that.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  The built in inherent mystique of De Niro.

• 45:07Griffin Newman?

  Right, where's this coming from?

• 45:08Speaker 02

  That he's this shape shifting guy who then, he avoids interviews. He doesn't want to talk about what acting is. He has a reputation for being.

• 45:18Griffin Newman?

  Bad.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  Right. He has a reputation for being very quiet on set and not saying much, being a quiet person.

• 45:24Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 45:25Speaker 02

  Ooh.

• 45:26Griffin Newman?

  And compare this to.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  Spooky.

• 45:28Griffin Newman?

  Pacino and Hoffman, who are incredible, but we know the legends.

• 45:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 45:33Griffin Newman?

  Of what they went through and what they were thinking and how they strategized their roles.

• 45:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 45:37Griffin Newman?

  And here he is and he's reading this book and he goes like, hey Marty, this is bad. We should make this movie. You're like, why? And he's like, I don't know. I want to play this guy.

• 45:44David Sims?

  One thing, well, I think there's two times, because The Irishman is another situation where De Niro keeps coming to Marty being like,

• 45:50Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 45:51David Sims?

  I just think this would be interesting. And Marty's like, I don't get it. And like, takes him a while. Right.

• 45:55Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 45:56David Sims?

  Marty doesn't like that the book says that there's, in the book, they kind of try to rationalize everything Jake did. Like, there's always a reason for the violence for what he did, which Scorsese is just uninterested in. He also is like, cinematically, I didn't like boxing because the boxing shit we would see as a kid, either filmed fights that maybe would be projected in movie theater or movies, would be from like one angle.

• 46:18Griffin Newman?

  Camera all the way to the back of the stands.

• 46:20David Sims?

  Right. But he agrees with De Niro. There are incidents in the book that are interesting, right? Like, he can see that. Mardik Martin, who had already worked with Scorsese on Who's That Knocking at My Door and Mean Streets and New York, New York and The Last Waltz, is handed the book. Marty's kind of like, I don't know if I want to do this, but you know, here, here we go. He calls Jake LaMotta this, the bull in the china shop. He's kirtched because he's so macho, but he's so fragile about women, right? Just takes a woman essentially like looking at him weird for him to completely collapse and become an insane, you know, violent, aggressive, you know? It's like, you can tell how insecure he is, right? He writes a draft. He integrates some things that Marty maybe wants about his family.

• 47:05David Sims?

  Like, there's something about a fig tree in Staten Island that his like grandfather had.

• 47:09Griffin Newman?

  Cool.

• 47:10David Sims?

  De Niro is like, I fucking hate this. Like, this isn't what I'm going for at all. So then they hand it to Paul Schrader, who obviously had already worked on Taxi Driver. And who has a very deep understanding, I feel like, about male fragility.

• 47:24Griffin Newman?

  Broken man.

• 47:24David Sims?

  Right. And at one point, Marty's like, let's do it as a play. They think about that. It's a bad idea. De Niro is getting increasingly mad. New York, New York comes out to bad reviews. Kind of the first time Marty's just gotten bad reviews. Like, people are just like thumbs down.

• 47:41Griffin Newman?

  And same to De Niro. De Niro's.

• 47:43David Sims?

  That's true.

• 47:43Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:44David Sims?

  Julia, his, Scorsese's marriage to Julia Cameron has just collapsed.

• 47:50David Sims?

  You know, he's feeling very disillusioned about everything. He's using a lot of drugs.

• 47:56David Sims?

  Scorsese thinks basically that he wanted to die, right? He's just kind of like pushing it to its limit. And he kind of hits a brick wall. Nineteen seventy eight, he says, September nineteen seventy eight, after Telluride, after like, the play collapses, he's hospitalized. He spends four days in the hospital.

• 48:14Griffin Newman?

  Is this the heart attack?

• 48:15David Sims?

  Yes.

• 48:15Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 48:15David Sims?

  He physically collapses. He's hovering between life and death. According to him, De Niro comes to see him. They talk very openly about everything he's going through. The official charge is internal bleeding.

• 48:26Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 48:27David Sims?

  Or the official like thing on the chart.

• 48:29Griffin Newman?

  Damn.

• 48:29David Sims?

  You have to be doing a lot of drugs. Devastating. And he's, he's, you know, he's fragile.

• 48:34Griffin Newman?

  He's a tiny asthmatic man.

• 48:36David Sims?

  Right.

• 48:36Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, true.

• 48:37David Sims?

  Sure. And

• 48:39Speaker 02

  I met him.

• 48:40David Sims?

  Marty.

• 48:41Speaker 02

  Fairly recently.

• 48:42David Sims?

  Recently.

• 48:42Speaker 02

  And he, I, I can attest to his tininess.

• 48:45David Sims?

  He's very small.

• 48:46Speaker 02

  Very small.

• 48:46David Sims?

  But he's energetic.

• 48:48Speaker 02

  I had a fortunately brief and pointless conversation with him.

• 48:54Speaker 02

  I didn't know what to say to them, to him. It was a very strange circumstance. I'm not going to get into the whole story, but I was sitting almost directly across from him at a dinner, at a luncheon table. Oddly, sitting also next to F. Murray Abraham. Neither of us knew why we were invited to this thing. But it was our big, grand, you know, meeting with him. F. Murray had never met him. He, that's kind of wild. And so he's 80, F. Murray's 80. He's sitting there and I, I don't know what to say to him and, and, and an introduction from his casting director

• 49:34Speaker 02

  goes, goes poorly. In other words, she says, hey, Marty, this is David Cremellin. He's a tremendous actor and he, he doesn't hear it, literally doesn't hear that.

• 49:43Griffin Newman?

  That's tough.

• 49:44Speaker 02

  And she doesn't try again. And so I'm thinking, I should say something. And he starts talking about styles of Chinese food.

• 49:51David Sims?

  Okay. Like Sichuan, Hunan.

• 49:53Speaker 02

  And he, he says that he, in his opinion, Sichuan is the best. We're not talking about favorites. He's simply saying empirically that Sichuan is the best Chinese food. I disagree. And I say, for me, it's Cantonese.

• 50:10David Sims?

  Classic sort of old school New York Chinese.

• 50:12Speaker 02

  And he says Cantonese? Really? And I say, yes. I feel like it's because it's, you know, very New Yorky and whatever. And he looks at me like I'm a moron.

• 50:25Speaker 02

  And switches the subject to something else. I had ruined the train of thought. And that was it. That's the whole, my whole interaction with Martin Scorsese is that we disagreed on the best Chinese food style. And he moved on for me in that moment.

• 50:41David Sims?

  And you'll take it to the grave.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  Well, he'll get to his grave before I will. So I'll take it to his grave. Maybe I'll go visit his grave.

• 50:50Griffin Newman?

  Drop off some Cantonese.

• 50:51Speaker 02

  With, you know, some lobster Cantonese. Yeah. And that's with all due respect to

• 50:57Griffin Newman?

  Oh, the great.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  One of the greatest filmmakers of all time.

• 50:59David Sims?

  Right, of course. Whose movie we are of course discussing. I guess De Niro basically gets Marty to agree to this

• 51:07Griffin Newman?

  In the hospital.

• 51:08David Sims?

  Which is maybe a little bit pressurized, but whatever. Robbie Robertson, Scorsese's roommate at the time, which is a great person you want to be roommates with if you're trying to kick coke, right? And Robbie Robertson says like, I noticed Scorsese finally kind of got back the anger that always helps him work. Where it's like, I can't live without doing this. You know what I mean? Like he, he suddenly got his sort of, you know, his druthers.

• 51:34Griffin Newman?

  His motor back.

• 51:34David Sims?

  Yes, right.

• 51:35Speaker 02

  Perhaps. Um, he himself was a raging bull.

• 51:40David Sims?

  Perhaps.

• 51:40Speaker 02

  Perhaps. Crushed by ambition.

• 51:42David Sims?

  Yes, he says

• 51:43Speaker 02

  Burdened by ability.

• 51:44Griffin Newman?

  Wants to get back in that ring.

• 51:46David Sims?

  Helped him understand a little bit more about the character. To, he wanted to make a film about self-destructiveness, obviously, right? Like to sort of lay that bare. He reviews the film as kind of a rehabilitation for himself. He says, I don't want to explain a person with like one Freudian term. I don't, I like, let's take all that out. So we're not going to make a movie about how like his dad was mean to him and that's why he's a piece of shit.

• 52:10Speaker 02

  Which is interesting too, by the way. So the, the, the brotherly bond. And in the film, really, that is the only representation of family. Oddly, they never, if ever, really ever talk about their parents. We don't know why he, they both, what home they came from and why they're like this, these two brothers. Interesting.

• 52:31Griffin Newman?

  I also think the brother had been minimized in the first two versions.

• 52:36David Sims?

  Yes. It's interesting. Schrader similarly is not interested in this project.

• 52:40Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 52:41David Sims?

  He's trying to make American Gigolo. You know, he's sort of transitioning to being, you know, more of a director, director himself. So it's like, no one, De Niro is the engine. Like both Scorsese and Schrader are like, I don't know, you know? They take Schrader's script with Paul's blessing to a Caribbean island, St. Martin, I believe. And just work on it for weeks together. They combine characters. They rewrite the dialogue. De Niro, if he's due credit on a script, it's this one according to, you know, like, like he's very involved.

• 53:12Griffin Newman?

  But neither of them submitted. So they didn't even attempt to get it.

• 53:15David Sims?

  It's credited to Martin and Schrader.

• 53:17Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. Um, the other thing that gets changed is they greatly minimize the presence of the mob in his life.

• 53:24David Sims?

  Right.

• 53:24Griffin Newman?

  And the sort of encroaching fear of the mob coming in for him because they're just like, we've done this. That's not what this movie's about. Who needs this? This is cliche.

• 53:32David Sims?

  Schrader had written a long, like, three-page masturbation monologue

• 53:36Griffin Newman?

  Good.

• 53:37David Sims?

  in which LaMotta is in prison trying to jerk off and failing because he's such a failure.

• 53:43Griffin Newman?

  Who amongst us has not been there?

• 53:46David Sims?

  Bob and Marty took that out because they felt it was too much. Schrader says, one of the best things I ever wrote. Don't know why they took it out.

• 53:52Griffin Newman?

  And he's filming it next year, right?

• 53:53David Sims?

  But Scorsese was honestly like, you know, like, it was just, it's impossible to show this kind of stuff. And like retain anything in terms of like the audience's interest.

• 54:04Griffin Newman?

  I got a pitch. Hammer from the point of view of a penis.

• 54:06David Sims?

  Sure.

• 54:07Griffin Newman?

  That's how you show it. And it's just him going, oh.

• 54:11David Sims?

  Whatever. The final result is a script that people like. De Niro hangs out with the real Jake LaMotta a lot. LaMotta is on set for some of the boxing scenes.

• 54:21David Sims?

  It's interesting because I wonder what he thought of the movie. LaMotta lived to be like a hundred years old, which is crazy.

• 54:27Griffin Newman?

  Pretty crazy. It's, that's the way like the French people eat chocolate and drink wine all day. You're like, maybe this is the key to long life. If you just get in the ring and have your face fucking beaten in.

• 54:36David Sims?

  He says that on set, he would kind of be like, oh, I was such a son of a bitch. Like he would be self-deprecating, but in kind of a charming way.

• 54:43Griffin Newman?

  It must be wild to watch people act out these scenes from your life in a movie that's not glamorizing you.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  Well, wait a second. There's a lot, there's no way LaMotta lets this happen without thinking in some way it's glamorizing.

• 54:59Griffin Newman?

  You're right.

• 55:00David Sims?

  He has to think.

• 55:00Speaker 02

  There's no way he's on that set not going, they're making a movie about me, baby.

• 55:05Griffin Newman?

  I'm a legend.

• 55:06Speaker 02

  That might have become part of a wider conversation. Mount Rushmore, you know?

• 55:12David Sims?

  As we all know, they, De Niro gets incredible shape to make this movie. And then they take a four-month break and De Niro goes on what they call essentially a pasta tour. He just goes to northern Italy and France for four months stuffing his face to get the weight to play later Jake LaMotta.

• 55:28Griffin Newman?

  That sounds like the greatest trip.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  I'm currently on a pasta tour.

• 55:32Griffin Newman?

  I'm, I might go on a couple.

• 55:33David Sims?

  Thirty to forty year pasta tour group.

• 55:37David Sims?

  Had pastas last night, made great pasta.

• 55:39Griffin Newman?

  I'm like Kiss where I keep saying like, this is the final pasta tour. And then I extend it for another three years.

• 55:48David Sims?

  Apparently Jake LaMotta in his real act would recite Shakespeare. And the end of the movie was him doing that. And Michael Powell, again, the esteemed director was just like, that's not going to work.

• 55:59Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 55:59David Sims?

  Like Shakespeare's just all wrong for this. So they, they instead go for the on the waterfront because that's kind of like, that's his iconography.

• 56:06Griffin Newman?

  That's also a truth to stranger than fiction thing where if that were in the movie, you'd be like, this is too much of a flourish. This is pretentious. The real guy would never say this.

• 56:14Speaker 02

  But, but

• 56:15Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 56:15Speaker 02

  The, the, the on the waterfront thing is, is a risk too.

• 56:18Griffin Newman?

  It is.

• 56:19Speaker 02

  Because if you think about it, the movie ends in such a ridiculously stark meta way, right? It's multiple layers of meta. It's De Niro reciting the monologue from On the Waterfront. He's reciting it flat without emotion, without passion. Clearly saying that these words of dialogue require some sort of illustriousness, some sort of performance qualities, some entertainment that this guy does, just does not have. So then that ends and he does his, I'm the boss, I'm the boss, I'm the boss, I'm the boss.

• 56:56Griffin Newman?

  I'm the puck.

• 56:56Speaker 02

  And then Scorsese speaks to the audience with a Bible passage.

• 57:00David Sims?

  He does?

• 57:01Speaker 02

  It's the once I was blind, but now I can see, literally describing the intention, invention and impact of the moving image. Literally saying, we were blind. We didn't have movies, but now we can see.

• 57:16Griffin Newman?

  And it's, it's the empathy machine argument. It's like, this is the best way to understand other people is through movies.

• 57:21Speaker 02

  Right. And here's the risk of that. There's the risk in the Shakespeare. There's the risk in this. It's essentially, it can be viewed as a pat on the back. As Scorsese going, this is my masterpiece.

• 57:31Griffin Newman?

  I fucking did it.

• 57:32Speaker 02

  I'm making more than just a film about a boxer. I'm making a film about film. It's, it's, it's again, Tarantino saying, having, you know, Brad Pitt say it's a masterpiece. It's bold. It's, but if you are a guy who knows you are an incredibly talented filmmaker and loves film and is losing the chance to make films. Because of, because of one film going awry, New York, New York, and you're a drug addict.

• 58:02Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 58:02Speaker 02

  And your wife leaves you.

• 58:04Griffin Newman?

  You might be losing life. You've, you've lost your love. You've lost your

• 58:07David Sims?

  Your wife leaves you. She had a child that he's basically not going to raise.

• 58:11Speaker 02

  Okay. So you have a choice at this moment. You either end the movie with some Shakespearean bullshit.

• 58:16Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 58:17Speaker 02

  Or you come right out and, and basically say to the audience in a pleading way, I deserve to make films.

• 58:25Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 58:26Speaker 02

  I look at this damn thing. Films are my passion. Once I was blind and now I can see. And here, here it is, raw as fuck.

• 58:38Griffin Newman?

  And also I refuse to self-destruct in the way that this man did. I refuse to be stuck hammering the fucking jewels out of my championship belt.

• 58:45Speaker 02

  And you come away going, Scorsese knew exactly what he was doing when he made this film, or do you go, there's no way he could have known the true impact of what this film is on a humanistic level? Is it an accident that this story that he didn't want to tell? About this dopey, egomaniacal, violent, conflicted boxer? Is it an accident that it turns out to be emblematic of, of, of, of human frailty itself?

• 59:26Speaker 02

  Does he know he's making that movie when he's making it?

• 59:29Griffin Newman?

  I think he knew he had nothing to lose.

• 59:31Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 59:31Griffin Newman?

  And I think that got him into a flow state.

• 59:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 59:34Griffin Newman?

  That is what he connected to in the boxing sequences of that feeling of just being in there and it making sense.

• 59:40Speaker 02

  And the beauty of it, right?

• 59:41Griffin Newman?

  Even when it's.

• 59:42Speaker 02

  How beautiful it is.

• 59:43Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 59:44Speaker 02

  To, you know.

• 59:45David Sims?

  I will also say about the Bible, Bible for.

• 59:47Griffin Newman?

  Hmm.

• 59:47David Sims?

  Trader was like, what the fuck is that about? He was like, huh? What are you trying to sell? You say there's salvation. It is also, you know, a tribute to his film teacher. Uh, Hague, he.

• 59:59Griffin Newman?

  Oh, yes, yes, who had passed away.

• 1:00:01David Sims?

  You know, right after it says in honor of him.

• 1:00:03Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:03David Sims?

  And I do feel like he is talking about like what this person did for him as well. Like, you know, changing his view of.

• 1:00:09Griffin Newman?

  How he understood and understood film. Um, the, the other thing I read was that I think the Schrader version was more intercutting between the, the older Lamotta and his glory days, if you can call them that. And they made the big structural decision of like, it's bookends.

• 1:00:26David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:00:27Griffin Newman?

  It's one flashback rather than a series of him recounting his whole life Dewey Cox style originally was more the structure of the movie. Yes.

• 1:00:34Speaker 02

  Which so many biopics are now, right?

• 1:00:36Griffin Newman?

  Yes, right, yeah.

• 1:00:37David Sims?

  And you are in Walk Hard, are you not?

• 1:00:39Griffin Newman?

  You are.

• 1:00:39Speaker 02

  I'm in Walk Hard, I'm in Ray.

• 1:00:41Griffin Newman?

  You're in both, yes.

• 1:00:42David Sims?

  Oh, you're in Ray, that's right.

• 1:00:43Griffin Newman?

  Yourself.

• 1:00:44Speaker 02

  I basically parodied myself. I'm in the Springsteen movie.

• 1:00:48Griffin Newman?

  Did not see it.

• 1:00:49Speaker 02

  Which came out recently.

• 1:00:50David Sims?

  Well, yeah, Deliver Us From Nowhere.

• 1:00:52Griffin Newman?

  I heard he had a hole in the floor where most people stand.

• 1:00:54David Sims?

  That kind of gets cut out of the movie.

• 1:00:55Griffin Newman?

  Does it really? That's interesting.

• 1:00:57Speaker 02

  Oh, wait, can I tell a juicy story?

• 1:00:59Griffin Newman?

  Please.

• 1:00:59Speaker 02

  Okay. I'm gonna do this because I haven't told this story yet. About that, so we're gonna take a little sojourn into Springsteen.

• 1:01:08Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  Deliver Me From Nowhere world briefly, and you can choose to cut it if you want to. Uh, um, my scene is, my one-on-one scene is with Jeremy Strong.

• 1:01:17Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:01:17Speaker 02

  I have.

• 1:01:18David Sims?

  Who's playing, uh, John Landau.

• 1:01:19Speaker 02

  John Landau. I have heard, what everyone has heard, that Jeremy Strong is, stays in character.

• 1:01:25Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  And blah, blah, blah. Okay. And so, yes, I'm a little scared of Jeremy Strong and I show up to the set and I'm also ready to fight. I'm like, if he fucks with me.

• 1:01:36Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:36Speaker 02

  If I have to work around this guy, I'm ready to bash him.

• 1:01:39David Sims?

  I saw the film, you play the, the head of a Columbia.

• 1:01:41Speaker 02

  I had the, yes, and, uh.

• 1:01:43David Sims?

  Or whatever, the exec.

• 1:01:44Speaker 02

  I think CBS Records and, and yes, that, that's correct. And, and, and, and so I have this scene, I've only have two scenes in the movie. The second scene is me hearing the first version of Springsteen's Nebraska.

• 1:01:58Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:01:59Speaker 02

  And, and, and not understanding how it's marketable and, and, you know, why we're doing, why we're going in this direction. And Landau, Jeremy Strong, is making the case.

• 1:02:09Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 1:02:10Speaker 02

  For having to happen, something that's Springsteen, okay. So. Show up on set, Jeremy Strong, nicest guy.

• 1:02:18Griffin Newman?

  Hmm.

• 1:02:18Speaker 02

  He's not in character. He is in voice.

• 1:02:22Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:22Speaker 02

  He's doing the affectation.

• 1:02:24Griffin Newman?

  A big difference that is often the case when you hear stories about people staying in character.

• 1:02:28Speaker 02

  It's not.

• 1:02:28Griffin Newman?

  Where they're like, they're talking to you about craft services. They're just holding on to the dialect.

• 1:02:32Speaker 02

  The accent.

• 1:02:33Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:02:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, so he's doing that. And so I'm in, and he's very sweet and, and wonderful and he's a great actor and I'm relieved. And we shoot the scene and he says, after the first take, he says, I wrote a monologue for this scene that I'd like to try on film. Now, mind you, Springsteen is there, Landau is there.

• 1:02:56Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:57Speaker 02

  While we're filming, Scott Cooper directing. Sure. He does the monologue.

• 1:03:02Griffin Newman?

  The, the hole in the floor?

• 1:03:03Speaker 02

  The hole in the floor monologue is written by Jeremy Strong. And it's long. And I'm thinking, not bad by any stretch of the imagination. But I'm thinking selfishly, I'm like, well, this scene just became a six-minute scene.

• 1:03:17Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 1:03:18Speaker 02

  Or an eight-minute scene. And if they love this monologue.

• 1:03:21Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:22Speaker 02

  This is all that's gonna be in the movie.

• 1:03:24Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 1:03:24Speaker 02

  Is me sitting there listening to this monologue and I'm thinking, oh shit. They cut and they come away and they go, no way. It was never said. This monologue is no, no. Springsteen's like, no. Landau's like, no.

• 1:03:40Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:40Speaker 02

  Cooper is like, no. Jeremy Strong, God love him.

• 1:03:44Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:44Speaker 02

  Does not take no for an answer.

• 1:03:46David Sims?

  It does not seem to be his constitution.

• 1:03:49Speaker 02

  Let me try again. And so he does a parroted phrased version of it on the next take and the next take. And it's, it's changing, it's evolving.

• 1:03:57Griffin Newman?

  Is he shortening it?

• 1:03:58Speaker 02

  Uh, no. He's not shortening it, it's just changing. He's trying to find the, the profundity in it. Um, and, and, and they got it. And we step off set while they set up the next shot. And I hear Jeremy Strong speaking to Scott Cooper about it. And all I hear really is him making his case for it and saying, Sean told me to fight for what I want as an actor.

• 1:04:26Griffin Newman?

  Penn?

• 1:04:27Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:04:28Griffin Newman?

  Interesting.

• 1:04:28Speaker 02

  And I'm just standing there and I said, William Scott?

• 1:04:33David Sims?

  Pretty funny.

• 1:04:34Speaker 02

  And.

• 1:04:34David Sims?

  Pretty funny.

• 1:04:35Speaker 02

  And you know what? Jeremy Strong, if he was a true supposed asshole, would have gotten upset. He laughed his ass off.

• 1:04:41David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  Lovely human being.

• 1:04:43David Sims?

  I, I interviewed him for that movie. I was very charmed by him.

• 1:04:46Speaker 02

  He's a very nice human being, normal guy. And, um, all that to say.

• 1:04:51David Sims?

  I don't think he's ever.

• 1:04:52Speaker 02

  That then, I see the trailer for the film.

• 1:04:55Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:04:55Speaker 02

  And the trailer is that monologue.

• 1:04:57Griffin Newman?

  But then they cut the monologue out of the movie?

• 1:04:59Speaker 02

  So wait, so I'm like, holy shit.

• 1:05:01Griffin Newman?

  It's in there.

• 1:05:02Speaker 02

  The monologue that they didn't like made the movie. And now I'm starting to go, wait a second. Am I, like, how, there's no way people are gonna sit through an eight-minute scene? And if that's in the movie, then I wonder what was cut.

• 1:05:16Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:16Speaker 02

  I reach out to Scott Cooper, I say, wow, I can't believe, you know, that made the movie. And he goes, oh, it's not in the movie. And it's not. The monologue from the trailer is not in that movie. Yeah, it's amazing.

• 1:05:28David Sims?

  I watched the whole movie waiting for the trailer.

• 1:05:30Speaker 02

  So it's a wonderful marketing thing that, that Jeremy wrote haphazardly.

• 1:05:34David Sims?

  The conversation they had on set with like, kind of summed something up, so maybe we use it for the trailer.

• 1:05:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:40David Sims?

  Um, no, I talked to him about, for that movie and I said, you know, your whole goddamn process is so insane, but was it weird that you had the guy? And could go check with him?

• 1:05:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:50David Sims?

  Versus like half these movies where it's like you're playing some dead person.

• 1:05:53Speaker 02

  There's no Roy Cohn on set.

• 1:05:55David Sims?

  Right. And instead this is like, he's fucking sitting over there and you go, is that better? Is that worse? Like, and he was kind of like, it was interesting. I mean, he wasn't, you know.

• 1:06:03Griffin Newman?

  The raging bull was the same way, Lamotta is there.

• 1:06:06David Sims?

  He is there. He is there. And it's like, that, I, strikes me as something that could be difficult if he tries to interfere, but I don't think he was there at all.

• 1:06:16Speaker 02

  There's no way he, he did because he's probably feeling lucky they're doing it.

• 1:06:19Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:06:20Speaker 02

  And also, they do, they make him in moments into a monster.

• 1:06:25Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:06:25Speaker 02

  You know, I don't think there's a human being on earth that would sit there and go, yeah, make it more monstrous.

• 1:06:31David Sims?

  I mean, I think it's vital that you start with him as a monster. Like, I mean, not just, not the, you know, with the steak.

• 1:06:37Griffin Newman?

  That, yes.

• 1:06:38David Sims?

  Where you're just like, good God, this guy's like at his, you know, peak or whatever, almost, and he's a piece of shit.

• 1:06:43Speaker 02

  And Larry calls him an animal. He, he called me a fucking, you're an animal, Larry. Your mo, you know, he's an animal. Your mother's an animal.

• 1:06:52David Sims?

  He goes to the mother right away all the time.

• 1:06:54Speaker 02

  A lot of mother.

• 1:06:54Griffin Newman?

  He loves bringing up the mom.

• 1:06:56David Sims?

  Yeah. Joe Pesci, just was a child actor on the New York stage, had not been in a film from 1961, Hey, Let's Twist, until 1976 is The Death Collector.

• 1:07:07Griffin Newman?

  Right, which is the TV movie that they end up seeing, right?

• 1:07:09David Sims?

  Yeah. He was worn out, he'd given up, he didn't really like the business of acting. He likes acting as an art, he says, like, you know, but he was pretty sick of.

• 1:07:17Griffin Newman?

  Hates the hustle.

• 1:07:18David Sims?

  Right. He catches wind that they want him for this role. He figured it was like a small role and was basically like, give it to a working actor who wants it. I'm running a restaurant in the Bronx for some friends of mine. You're like Joe Pesci, the story's like, he's helping some friends of his out.

• 1:07:33Griffin Newman?

  Just helping a friend.

• 1:07:35David Sims?

  Uh, I was out of that place in Hollywood where you're at everyone's mercy all the time. You know, he basically just, you know, he's sick of it. Then he meets Marty and Bob. He saw, working with them would be different. It was all, as you said, because De Niro had somehow seen The Death Collector on tape and was like, this guy's interesting. And there's a scene, I guess, in that movie where he runs a crap game and they liked his energy. I haven't seen The Death Collector. And, you know, they just like the way he talks, um, and that's how that happens. Cathy Moriarty.

• 1:08:08David Sims?

  Joe Pesci had seen her picture in a club?

• 1:08:11Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:08:12David Sims?

  Liked the look of her. She'd never acted.

• 1:08:14Speaker 02

  She was nineteen.

• 1:08:15David Sims?

  Which defies logic. You watch this performance and you assume they cast a thirty year old who's playing young.

• 1:08:21Speaker 02

  Well, she's got that great old person voice.

• 1:08:23David Sims?

  It's insane.

• 1:08:24Speaker 02

  He's got that great, a little, she's got a little bit of smokiness in the voice.

• 1:08:28Griffin Newman?

  She's got more than.

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  And she is stunningly beautiful.

• 1:08:30David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  In a classic film way.

• 1:08:32David Sims?

  She's a beauty. Yes.

• 1:08:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:08:33David Sims?

  But they obviously needed someone who was kind of flinty and tough and like, you know, could stand up to everyone. And I don't know how they get that out of a picture in a club, but I guess they meet her and they, they get it. They shoot the fight scenes for ten weeks. They shoot, then they shoot dramatic scenes for ten weeks. Then they take a four month break. Everyone is paid.

• 1:08:52Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:53David Sims?

  While De Niro is on his eating tour.

• 1:08:55Speaker 02

  They shoot the damn thing for twenty weeks?

• 1:08:57David Sims?

  Twenty weeks.

• 1:08:57Griffin Newman?

  Insane.

• 1:08:58David Sims?

  Then a four month break and then he comes back and they do the rest of it, which is not too much.

• 1:09:03Speaker 02

  Not too much. Okay.

• 1:09:05David Sims?

  But I mean, right, the old, the, the older La Moda stuff is, is not heavy running time, right?

• 1:09:10Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 1:09:10David Sims?

  You know, if you add it all up.

• 1:09:11Griffin Newman?

  No, it's like ten minutes, fifteen minutes. I think.

• 1:09:13Speaker 02

  It's a half hour.

• 1:09:14Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 1:09:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's the last half hour.

• 1:09:17David Sims?

  They, when they just start doing some prep, they, he shoots some eight millimeter footage of Bobby training in a gym. And Michael Powell, again, Scorsese's mentor is like, the gloves wouldn't be red back then, because he had like red boxing gloves. And he's like, you know, back then gloves were basically like that kind of like dark.

• 1:09:32Griffin Newman?

  It's maroon, brown or black.

• 1:09:35David Sims?

  And Marty is basically like, we gotta do this in black and white. Number one, I want to differentiate from the Rockies. And all the other sort of boxing movies right now. Like, I want to look different. Because those movies are all bright reds and blues and all that.

• 1:09:49Griffin Newman?

  Right. At this point Rocky is all American flag.

• 1:09:52David Sims?

  And number two, and this is a nerdy Scorsese reason, he's really upset that color stocks are fading like Eastman film.

• 1:09:59Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:10:00David Sims?

  The colors like not lasting.

• 1:10:02Griffin Newman?

  In terms of preservation and yeah.

• 1:10:04Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:10:05David Sims?

  Uh, and then beyond that, he's just kind of like, it'll look period. It'll look like an old, like daily news photo from the era, right? Like it'll have that, that vibe.

• 1:10:12Griffin Newman?

  Great argument. That is what the movie gets at.

• 1:10:14David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:10:14Griffin Newman?

  For me. Yeah.

• 1:10:16David Sims?

  And then in the book, apparently it opens with Jake La Moda's first sentence is, when my memories come back to me, I have the feeling that I'm watching an old film in black and white. Marty says, I don't remember that, but apparently that is in there.

• 1:10:29Speaker 02

  Can I say there's a haphazard result the, out of it?

• 1:10:33David Sims?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:10:33Speaker 02

  Which is? Which is, yes, let's say, you know, yes, there's an old feeling to it. There, we're telling a classic story, a crude, raw story. There's no color. It's black and white. His life is black and white. It's either that he's got it together and he's handling his life well, or he's a complete and utter dark maniac, right? Black, dark maniac. But there's also this haphazard effect on the comedy. Because we're seeing comedy clearly in, you know, deliberate comedic moments mixed in with violence. It's the Three Stooges.

• 1:11:12Griffin Newman?

  It's that pattern. Yes.

• 1:11:13Speaker 02

  It, it softens it in a way.

• 1:11:15Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:15Speaker 02

  If it's in color, it's almost too vivid. If you see the blood and the blood is red, it's almost too much.

• 1:11:20Griffin Newman?

  I was gonna say.

• 1:11:21Speaker 02

  By accident, in a way.

• 1:11:23Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:23Speaker 02

  It is, it, the, the black and white of it softens the comedy.

• 1:11:28Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. If this movie were in color, it would be talked about as one of the most violent movies of all time.

• 1:11:33David Sims?

  That is very true.

• 1:11:34Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:11:34David Sims?

  Yeah. And obviously he'd already had that experience in Taxi Driver, right?

• 1:11:51David Sims?

  He wanted to do the ring scenes as if like the viewers are the fighter, right?

• 1:11:56Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:57David Sims?

  And, I, you know,

• 1:12:00David Sims?

  you're not cutting to the audience much. Like you never really see them going like, get him or whatever, like.

• 1:12:05Griffin Newman?

  And they're pretty abstracted even in the background of shots. As you said, it's a lot of smoke and a lot of just black backdrops.

• 1:12:11David Sims?

  Uh, Frank Warner, the, the Foley guy, sound effects guy, used melons. He would fire rifles into them and stuff, like he did all kinds of weird sound effects. Uh, obviously at some points they dropped the sound, which is so scary and impressive. And then they bring it back to really get you.

• 1:12:26Griffin Newman?

  Producer Ben, I'm realizing in another life, you could have been a Foley artist.

• 1:12:30David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:31Griffin Newman?

  It feels like some real Ben shit to sit down and go, what sounds like a punch? Shoot a rifle into a melon.

• 1:12:36David Sims?

  Totally.

• 1:12:36Griffin Newman?

  That's the way your brain works.

• 1:12:37David Sims?

  Yeah. It seems really fun to come up with those concepts.

• 1:12:41Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:12:42David Sims?

  Experiment.

• 1:12:43Griffin Newman?

  And as I said, everyone is different. They didn't want to repeat sounds. So they did like a massive, massive number of takes and different techniques.

• 1:12:51David Sims?

  Uh, and then obviously also this is the reunion of Marty and Thelma Scoonmaker, uh, who will edit all the rest of his films, basically.

• 1:12:58Griffin Newman?

  This was, I think, voted by the editor society.

• 1:13:01David Sims?

  She won the Oscar.

• 1:13:01Griffin Newman?

  She won the Oscar, but I, I think it was voted the best edited film of all time.

• 1:13:06Speaker 02

  Was there a sound editing Oscar at this time?

• 1:13:08David Sims?

  Let's take a look here. The sound Oscar. I think there wasn't, but let me see. Cause you know, remember they would sort of do like special, I don't know, best sound. Look, it did go to the Empire Strikes Back, which does have pretty good sound.

• 1:13:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. High bar there.

• 1:13:22David Sims?

  Uh, it was nominated.

• 1:13:24Speaker 02

  Difficulty, yeah.

• 1:13:25David Sims?

  Uh, but it, the best sound was given to the Empire Strikes Back. Raging Bull was nominated for best, it won two Oscars, one for editing and one for Robert De Niro.

• 1:13:32Griffin Newman?

  Robert De Niro won for this?

• 1:13:33David Sims?

  Yes, he did.

• 1:13:34Griffin Newman?

  Okay. For acting, for acting in this movie.

• 1:13:36David Sims?

  It's, it's obviously, this is, um, although I think he wasn't there maybe for Godfather. I think it's the first time he accepts.

• 1:13:42Griffin Newman?

  I think that's correct.

• 1:13:43Speaker 02

  Am I crazy to say that he hasn't won an Academy Award since?

• 1:13:48Griffin Newman?

  That's correct. He has two. He has exactly two.

• 1:13:50Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:13:51Griffin Newman?

  And I feel like it's been buzzing around, is it time to finally give him a third since Silver Linings?

• 1:13:57David Sims?

  Right. Silver Linings and, um, Fire Moon. He was nominated for both.

• 1:14:01Griffin Newman?

  There's a long gap. Like he doesn't get nominated between Cape Fear and Silver Linings. Is that right?

• 1:14:06David Sims?

  I think that's right.

• 1:14:06Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:07David Sims?

  I don't know what his third Oscar would have been exactly.

• 1:14:11Griffin Newman?

  I mean, it should have been The Intern.

• 1:14:14Griffin Newman?

  Have you seen The Intern?

• 1:14:15David Sims?

  No.

• 1:14:15Griffin Newman?

  He's phenomenal in The Intern. Yeah. He plays an intern.

• 1:14:21David Sims?

  This is the ordinary people year, obviously. That's what wins best picture and director.

• 1:14:25Speaker 02

  Wow. What a year. Good lord.

• 1:14:27David Sims?

  Yeah. It beats, obviously Timothy Hutton wins supporting actor over, um,

• 1:14:30Griffin Newman?

  Pesci.

• 1:14:31David Sims?

  Pesci and Mary Steenburgen wins best supporting actress for Melvin and Howard.

• 1:14:35Griffin Newman?

  It's a good win.

• 1:14:36David Sims?

  A lovely performance.

• 1:14:37Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:37David Sims?

  Uh, over Kathy, uh, and best adapted screenplay wasn't even nominated, which is somewhat shocking.

• 1:14:43Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:43Speaker 02

  Well, but if you think about it, not really, because the movie is heavily improvised.

• 1:14:48Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:48Speaker 02

  There's no doubt. Is there even a script?

• 1:14:51Griffin Newman?

  There were multiple scripts.

• 1:14:52Speaker 02

  There are, but it's not like they stuck to it.

• 1:14:55Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:14:56Speaker 02

  There's no way.

• 1:14:57David Sims?

  And to me, the most shocking win, yeah, the loss is the cinematography loss.

• 1:15:00Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:01David Sims?

  Um, so, uh, there's, yeah, then let's talk about the film.

• 1:15:05Speaker 02

  There's two scenes in this movie, one that I don't like and one that I absolutely love.

• 1:15:11Griffin Newman?

  Give them to him.

• 1:15:11Speaker 02

  Okay. The only scene I don't like in this movie, because it's a little on the nose foreshadowing, is them at, you know, on their first date, mini golf. They lose the ball. She shoots it into some structure on this mini golf thing and they, the ball doesn't come out. And I felt like, okay, he's telling us that this guy's gonna lose everything. That, you know, sometimes you take a shot and it doesn't end up doing anything. Right? Um, okay. So that felt, that in retrospect, watching and I was like, okay, this, this scene is a little like, the screenwriting 101. I'm, uh, you know, and that's not to knock anything, but it's, it's not great.

• 1:15:56Speaker 02

  Alternately, alternatively, I don't know how to speak.

• 1:16:02Griffin Newman?

  You got both.

• 1:16:03Speaker 02

  The bit with the champagne glasses stacked.

• 1:16:06Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:06Speaker 02

  At the end.

• 1:16:07Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:16:07Speaker 02

  Representing balance.

• 1:16:09Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. Sure.

• 1:16:10Speaker 02

  And Scorsese at that point, deep into this film, now we're about an hour and forty-five into the two hours.

• 1:16:16Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:16David Sims?

  When we're past his career and he's now.

• 1:16:19Griffin Newman?

  This is running the club.

• 1:16:20David Sims?

  Busted by a club.

• 1:16:20Speaker 02

  So why is that scene in this film, right? It's him proving himself that he can balance this thing, but Scorsese is playing now with what he established. Like what is the, he's saying to the audience, you don't know what to feel, do you?

• 1:16:34Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. Yes.

• 1:16:35Speaker 02

  There is no balance. You're watching our lead character balance this, this thing.

• 1:16:40Griffin Newman?

  Excess. He's balancing excess.

• 1:16:42Speaker 02

  Balance how you feel. I know you can't. I'm Scorsese. I made a movie that is confusing you.

• 1:16:48Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:16:49Speaker 02

  You don't know what to feel. And if you feel disturbed, maybe that's the only thing you feel, because you just don't, you're used to being told what to feel. Or assuming what you should be feeling. And this movie is so cross genre. There's ten genres. You don't know what to feel. And so you're conflicted, you're uncomfortable. And honestly, watching that balancing and his pride in it, to me is the goriest moment of this movie. A movie filled with blood, the goriest moment is him doing this champagne balance and smiling and getting the congratulations from the few people that are gathered around.

• 1:17:32Speaker 02

  That, there's something so disturbing about that moment and so gross.

• 1:17:36David Sims?

  The employee comes up and says, your wife is here and you just couldn't be any more dismissive.

• 1:17:42Speaker 02

  Right. He's just like, let me do this.

• 1:17:44Griffin Newman?

  That's the real point of it for me is that what he's balancing is an overflowing amount of alcohol for nobodies.

• 1:17:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:17:51Griffin Newman?

  And it's, like, what is the victory here?

• 1:17:53David Sims?

  It's an incredibly tense scene because we've watched him fail to navigate the simplest human interactions throughout the movie. And anytime this guy fucking sits down for dinner or talks to someone, you're like, is he gonna explode? Is he gonna? And then you can feel the tension in the scene and in the audience of being like, are the fucking glasses gonna fall over?

• 1:18:16Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:17David Sims?

  Is he gonna scream at someone?

• 1:18:19Griffin Newman?

  He does the fake out.

• 1:18:19David Sims?

  He does the fake out. And then you're, so you're tense because you've spent your whole life with this guy, it feels like, just being on edge about what a like monster he can be. And then he does it and you're like, huh, I feel triumphant. And then you feel bad about that.

• 1:18:34Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:34David Sims?

  You're like, he did a good job. And then it's just like. Just there's this kind of revulsion and there's this weird triumph to it. That's what I love about this movie.

• 1:18:45Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:45David Sims?

  The same with him in the prison cell where you feel bad for him.

• 1:18:49Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:50David Sims?

  But then you're also just like, he's a monster. Like, you know, and like

• 1:18:53Griffin Newman?

  He made out with a fourteen year old at a club.

• 1:18:55David Sims?

  It's and

• 1:18:57Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:57David Sims?

  You know.

• 1:18:58Griffin Newman?

  At his club as the owner.

• 1:19:00David Sims?

  As the and then when he says the like, what? I mean, she, his defense isn't even, I didn't know she was

• 1:19:07Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:19:08David Sims?

  What? Does she look fourteen to you?

• 1:19:10Griffin Newman?

  Just say that to a cop.

• 1:19:11David Sims?

  The side by side of her as she is and her kind of dollop or whatever.

• 1:19:15Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:17David Sims?

  And you're just, you're just like, I'd want him locked up. And then he's, you know, pummeling the wall and you're just like, you know, I, well, what is locking? You know, like, what, what satisfaction am I getting out of this? I already knew he was like this broken animal. It's

• 1:19:33Griffin Newman?

  Well, also, how quickly he dissolves into banging his head against the cement wall, saying dummy over and over again. And then that turns into boxing practice. Like he resorts back to the one thing he knows, which is to try to punch his way out of stuff.

• 1:19:47Speaker 02

  This is the kind of movie you exit the theater and the person you're with goes, what'd you think?

• 1:19:52Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:54Speaker 02

  And you're afraid to answer in an elaborate way of a thousand thoughts, but you don't want to be wrong.

• 1:19:59Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:00Speaker 02

  And so you say, it was great. And that's all you say.

• 1:20:03Griffin Newman?

  It's very well shot.

• 1:20:04Speaker 02

  Because whatever you say, whatever you say, says a lot about you.

• 1:20:10David Sims?

  Yeah. And that's what Marty wants to think about.

• 1:20:12Speaker 02

  And that's exactly what he's doing. He's putting the audience in such an awkward position. How do you, is he, was he likable? Was he fun to follow? Was he funny? Was he, was he, is he a disgusting human being? You know, we all spend the majority of our lives negotiating with the reality of who we are. And not ever accepting who we really, really are. And it isn't until the I'm a dummy, bash my head, that we see the pain of accepting who you really, really are. Who Jake finally accepts, he is a dummy.

• 1:20:49Griffin Newman?

  You're so stupid. You're so stupid. You're so stupid.

• 1:20:51Speaker 02

  Ruined everything. You're a bum, you know? It's, it's, and it's brutal to do that, but it's also brutal to negotiate with the reality. So there's the rock and the hard place. You know what I mean? I also think it, we would be crazy not to talk about the style of comedy in this film.

• 1:21:11Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:21:11Speaker 02

  Can we do that?

• 1:21:12David Sims?

  Please.

• 1:21:13Speaker 02

  So we're now entering into this nuanced sort of circumstantial comedy. There's not a single written joke in this movie.

• 1:21:25Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:21:25Speaker 02

  There's just little things being said.

• 1:21:29Griffin Newman?

  Behavior.

• 1:21:29Speaker 02

  Maybe behavioral, maybe just, and it's gutturally funny.

• 1:21:34Griffin Newman?

  And a lot of it's also just rhythmic. It's, it's the Marty thing.

• 1:21:37Speaker 02

  There's no clever witty banter.

• 1:21:39Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:39Speaker 02

  It's the opposite of witty banter.

• 1:21:41Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:21:42Speaker 02

  And some of these lines I wrote down, if you don't mind, there's the, he says, when he throws the fight and Billy Fox, I think, or Jimmy, is it Billy Fox?

• 1:21:52David Sims?

  Uh, let me look.

• 1:21:53Speaker 02

  I think it's Billy Fox is the fighter he fights, who does a bad job making it look like a real fight.

• 1:21:59David Sims?

  He can't sell it because he's too embarrassed.

• 1:22:00Speaker 02

  And he ends up getting suspended. Lamotta gets suspended and he's looking at the paper.

• 1:22:06Speaker 02

  And we've had this, this, this very funny, uh, physical bit where he, uh, he smacks. Pesci says, smack me. Let me show you something. Just smack me. And he smacks him and Pesci, boom, hits the floor.

• 1:22:17Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:18Speaker 02

  Oh, that's so hot.

• 1:22:19Griffin Newman?

  He doesn't even do that. He goes, put your hands up.

• 1:22:21Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 1:22:21Griffin Newman?

  There's not even a smack and Lamotta just puts his hands up and Pesci falls straight down.

• 1:22:26Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:22:26Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:27Speaker 02

  There's also in that scene, he picks up the, De Niro picks up the paper and says, look at this. Look how they make me look. They make me look like a bum, like a Mama Luke. And Pesci goes,

• 1:22:37David Sims?

  I Googled Mama Luke.

• 1:22:38Speaker 02

  A what? And he goes, like the Mama Luke of the year.

• 1:22:45Speaker 02

  It's just like, you know, there's no way they don't know while they're making it that that's funny. And while, and while they're editing these, who knows what's not in the movie from all that improv? There's no way it's not improvised, like the Mama Luke of the year. Um, that's one of my favorite. Then there is the, uh, there's the moment where he throws the fight. He knows it looked bad. He's crying his eyes out in stark contrast to the fight where he, I believe he loses, it's in the beginning, he loses the first fight we see him in.

• 1:23:18David Sims?

  Yes. He loses, but like, there's a somewhat moral victory of like, you kind of had him.

• 1:23:24Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:25David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:25Speaker 02

  I think it's that fighter, maybe it's one of the Sugar Ray fights, but he's sitting in the, the, whatever, the dressing room or whatever be afterwards, and there's a real peace.

• 1:23:36Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:36Speaker 02

  He got what he needed out.

• 1:23:38Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:38Speaker 02

  It's like post-coital for him.

• 1:23:40Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:41Speaker 02

  He's sitting there. Everybody else is kind of freaking out. Oh yeah, that's right. Joe Pesci is like, they fucking robbed you.

• 1:23:46David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:23:47Speaker 02

  And he's sitting there going, it's all right. It's all right. And he says, he goes, ah, you know, maybe I deserve it. Maybe I've done some bad things in my life. All of a sudden you get, oh, there's some emotional intelligence there, some awareness. You know, what a weird thing to say from this crude guy to say, you know what? Maybe it's karma, you know? But later there's the scene where he throws it and he's, well, there's a small hands bit. But later there's a scene where he's crying hysterically.

• 1:24:12Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:13Speaker 02

  And his trainer goes, you know what? Don't fight ever again. It's a free country. Don't fight ever again. I've, that line has me screaming. And then his, his trainer, that old man.

• 1:24:24Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:24:25Speaker 02

  Starts to cry.

• 1:24:25Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:26Speaker 02

  But before, you know what? Don't fight again. It's a free country. Don't fight again.

• 1:24:31Griffin Newman?

  I just think the small hands thing is so big because as you said, like, he loses the opening fight, but he has inner peace because he feels like he proved what he needed to prove.

• 1:24:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:24:41Griffin Newman?

  And then after he wins what is the biggest fight of his career, he cannot get over the fact that he never will be able to achieve what he wants to achieve.

• 1:24:48Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:24:48Griffin Newman?

  That physically he is incapable of actually getting, I can't get the fight that proves that I'm the best.

• 1:24:53Speaker 02

  And then you got Pesci.

• 1:24:55Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:24:55Speaker 02

  What is wrong with you? Why would you care about that? That's crazy. That's sick. You know, what are you talking about? You want to fight Jolo, you'll never, you're a heavyweight. You're a middleweight. He's a heavyweight.

• 1:25:04Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:04Speaker 02

  It's never going to happen.

• 1:25:04Griffin Newman?

  Right. It's logically like, who gives a shit?

• 1:25:06Speaker 02

  See, you worry about shit. It's the things you worry about. That, that's why you're a sick bastard. That's why you're a fat fuck.

• 1:25:12David Sims?

  Which

• 1:25:13Speaker 02

  It's so.

• 1:25:14Griffin Newman?

  It's so good.

• 1:25:14Speaker 02

  But Pesci is let loose.

• 1:25:17David Sims?

  The, the heavyweight thing is really telling.

• 1:25:20Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:20David Sims?

  Where like you can tell Lamotta's like, well, but I wouldn't actually be the best unless I could fucking like knock down Muhammad Ali.

• 1:25:25Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:25:26David Sims?

  And it's just like, well, you're not fucking capable of that. You are literally not large enough.

• 1:25:30Griffin Newman?

  Irrelevant.

• 1:25:31David Sims?

  And like, even if, it'd be true. You, if you went to the weight of a heavyweight, you would just be a ball.

• 1:25:36Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:36David Sims?

  So like, so get over it.

• 1:25:38Griffin Newman?

  To at the end of the movie.

• 1:25:39David Sims?

  He never gets over it.

• 1:25:40Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. He never gets over.

• 1:25:41David Sims?

  You know, she beats Sugar Ray one time, who is kind of the king of his division. And that's something, but you could tell like from there on, and that's very early in the movie.

• 1:25:49Griffin Newman?

  But there's no way he's gonna ever feel like he won.

• 1:25:51David Sims?

  He'll never feel, exactly vindicated in his, in his masculinity.

• 1:25:54Speaker 02

  And everything falls apart, right? The, the, the, the comic engine of this movie that really the movie hinges on the comedy, or else it's, it's, it's too miserable to watch.

• 1:26:06Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:26:07Speaker 02

  Is the brother dynamic. It's a brother comedy. Two very different brothers. One's a handsome, tall, really physically fit beast animal and his, you know, wise cracking, but sensible, uh, little pugnacious Napoleon complex, tiny brother. You know, they both have the same size hands, but other, other than that, there's nothing. And there's a ton of comedy of that. And even that becomes tragic.

• 1:26:32Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:26:33Speaker 02

  You know, he beats the shit out of his brother and then he tries years later to, to, you know, his brother won't hug him back.

• 1:26:39Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:40Speaker 02

  Hug him, kiss me. Come on, kiss me. Give me a kiss.

• 1:26:42Griffin Newman?

  Basically hug attack him.

• 1:26:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. Give me a kiss. Give me a kiss. And he won't do it. He never does it. He gets in his car. He says, yeah, I'll call you. Pesci does.

• 1:26:49Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:49Speaker 02

  You know, you'll call me? Yeah, I'll call you. Sure. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's, it's, it's like everything goes to shit.

• 1:26:56Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:57Speaker 02

  Scorsese is going, you want me to be cruel? I'm going to take the funny stuff away now. I'm going to make the funny, the stuff that you were watching in the beginning that really you, you were enjoying. I'm going to take that away. I'm going to ruin that for you. You know, there are certain films and certain filmmakers who have no problem being mean to an audience.

• 1:27:14Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:27:15Speaker 02

  You know, that, you know, let's, let's stick it to them. Let's make them bleed. And Scorsese has to, he, you know, it's the visceral reaction that he wants. He's not trying to get anyone going. Again, no erudite responses are necessary to a Scorsese film.

• 1:27:33Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:27:34Speaker 02

  You know, he doesn't want people walking out analyzing the shit, which is what we're kind of doing today.

• 1:27:39Griffin Newman?

  True.

• 1:27:39Speaker 02

  Right?

• 1:27:40David Sims?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:27:40Speaker 02

  This is not what he wants. He wants you to come out in pain.

• 1:27:43Griffin Newman?

  Feel something.

• 1:27:44Speaker 02

  Feel something so visceral.

• 1:27:47Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:47Speaker 02

  Panic, uh, you know, fear, cape fear.

• 1:27:50David Sims?

  A little bit.

• 1:27:51Speaker 02

  Just, yeah, embarrassment, a, a, a lack of identity. You don't want to admit who, how you felt about the movie because you don't want to like think, make people think you're crazy if you say, I like Lamotta.

• 1:28:03Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:28:03Speaker 02

  Or I relate to him or I sympathize with.

• 1:28:05David Sims?

  He wants you to think that.

• 1:28:07Speaker 02

  He's got you on the ropes. How's that? How's that Scorsese? You got us on the, you motherfucker.

• 1:28:13Griffin Newman?

  I think there's another thing and it's because

• 1:28:15Speaker 02

  I love Martin Scorsese.

• 1:28:16David Sims?

  No, but it's, it's what he does over and over and over again. And he sparks this discourse among his viewers of like, well, I wasn't supposed to sympathize with that, was I?

• 1:28:24Griffin Newman?

  Is this movie irresponsible?

• 1:28:25David Sims?

  Does he sympathize with this?

• 1:28:27Griffin Newman?

  Hmm.

• 1:28:27David Sims?

  And he's just like, human behavior, like, like this happens all the time.

• 1:28:31Speaker 02

  Right. And in the world of film.

• 1:28:33David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:28:33Speaker 02

  Very, very few filmmakers attempt to tackle the thing that Kubrick's, all of Kubrick's movies are about.

• 1:28:42Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:28:43Speaker 02

  Which is the fight between the consciousness of humanity and the subconscious nature of animal instinct.

• 1:28:51Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:28:51Speaker 02

  And that, that inherent battle, you know, you, you really, man, that's a tough line in a film.

• 1:28:57Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:28:58Speaker 02

  But if film is made for anything, it's for that. And that's a real ambitious thing to do. Very few filmmakers can pull it off. This is, i- if, at this point, if Scorsese hasn't done it with Taxi Driver, this is him, and putting an exclamation point on, I can do this. As a filmmaker, I can show you a film that will get to the base issue of humanity. And very few filmmakers can do it.

• 1:29:29Speaker 02

  Completely in a full way where the where the message is clearly sent. And yet, there's mystery as to how well it's done, if that makes sense in a way.

• 1:29:41Griffin Newman?

  I think there's another massive thing.

• 1:29:43Speaker 02

  Spielberg does it too.

• 1:29:44Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:29:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:45Griffin Newman?

  I think the other massive thing going on here is Scorsese, I mean, you were talking about the comedy of this. He unlocks how much the comedy helps all of this go down because laughter is involuntary. You can make people laugh at bad behavior without judging. It's a thing that just happens.

• 1:30:01Speaker 02

  That just happens. And this is all involuntary.

• 1:30:03Griffin Newman?

  Totally.

• 1:30:03Speaker 02

  There is no single, like I said, written or deliberate joke.

• 1:30:07Griffin Newman?

  And hard to put your finger on, why is this funny?

• 1:30:09Speaker 02

  This is belly laugh stuff.

• 1:30:11Griffin Newman?

  And New York, New York has the same very repetitive recursive improvs, but it's not funny. And it's, it's actually just punishing.

• 1:30:18David Sims?

  It's punishing and it's off.

• 1:30:20Griffin Newman?

  You're thinking, I hate this guy because I don't like spending time with him. There's nothing even entertaining about spending time with him versus if it's entertaining. If you can locate what is both the comedic and dramatic motor of a scene and just wind that up. It's, it's what he said when he read the book. There are scenes in this. I see that. There are scenes, incidents, setups in this that are interesting. And if you can make those entertaining, the audience is with you a long way until they start to intellectualize it.

• 1:30:48Speaker 02

  The map that is established in the late seventies to be able to tell these sort of human frailty stories with comedy with, you know, part of that map is, is Annie Hall. Okay. Woody has done this thing where he goes, oh, you want to see a movie about human frailty? Cast me as the lead. I'm going to cast myself as the lead. Done. So by the time Raging Bull has come out, audiences are used to seeing these films about fragile men who are crushed by ambition and burdened by their ability.

• 1:31:29Speaker 02

  And so Scorsese, I think, uses that zeitgeist to then give you something so horrifying. Lamotta is, is probably a much, much more classically frightening monster, movie monster than Lamotta was as a person.

• 1:31:52Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:31:52Speaker 02

  Right? There's some exaggeration. There's some in who he is for the film, for film's sake.

• 1:31:59Griffin Newman?

  Also the density of the story when you're limiting it to the highlights, you're seeing disproportionately his explosions.

• 1:32:06Speaker 02

  And it's, it's, in my opinion, one of the scariest performances I've ever seen. When I was 21, especially seeing this for the first time, De Niro's performance scared the bejesus out of me.

• 1:32:20Griffin Newman?

  There are times he truly goes dead eyed.

• 1:32:22Speaker 02

  He, he gets so animalistic.

• 1:32:24Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:25Speaker 02

  That you go, whoa, I didn't think a human being was, there's a psychotic nature to this performance.

• 1:32:31Griffin Newman?

  I also think that like the seventies, New Hollywood has the rise of the anti-hero that really starts in the late sixties. But this is a big shift into like, this guy's not even an anti-hero.

• 1:32:42Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:32:43Griffin Newman?

  This is putting the guy you'd never put at the center of the picture right there.

• 1:32:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 1:32:46Griffin Newman?

  Right. Cause it, you know, something like Midnight Cowboy has like, well, Razzo Rizzo is on the side.

• 1:32:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:53Griffin Newman?

  And you have an innocent who doesn't quite understand what he's getting into at the center. That balances it out. That makes you feel less dirty from where you're identifying.

• 1:33:03Speaker 02

  But this is the Razzo Rizzo movie, sort of. And again, another reason they don't, they can't make this today.

• 1:33:09Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 1:33:10David Sims?

  No.

• 1:33:10Speaker 02

  They don't make movies, you know, Pesci, when he blew up after winning the Academy Award for Goodfellas. Suddenly he's doing, you know, a couple of the Super.

• 1:33:23Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:33:23Speaker 02

  Remember, uh, My Cousin Vinny?

• 1:33:25Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:33:26Speaker 02

  You know, those movies are great.

• 1:33:27David Sims?

  They are.

• 1:33:27Speaker 02

  They're great.

• 1:33:28David Sims?

  Like movies where suddenly Hollywood is like, what's a vehicle for you?

• 1:33:31Speaker 02

  What's a vehicle?

• 1:33:31David Sims?

  What's your thing?

• 1:33:32Speaker 02

  Right. Nowadays, they don't do that.

• 1:33:34Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 1:33:34Speaker 02

  That, if you were to ask an executive, hey, is it a good marketing strategy to make a movie about a freaky person?

• 1:33:43Speaker 02

  They would be like, mm, we can't do it.

• 1:33:45Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:45Speaker 02

  Yes, but wouldn't an audience like to see something different, different for different sake? Wouldn't they like to see something small, weird?

• 1:33:52Griffin Newman?

  Watching this guy.

• 1:33:52Speaker 02

  Chubby.

• 1:33:53Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:33:53Speaker 02

  Uh, strange. And, and the answer on, you know, to any layman who isn't a communications major straight out of college, who's been, who's failed upward into becoming a development executive at a studio is of course, we want to see those. The problem is those people who make the decisions now are like, mm, it's like sabermetrics.

• 1:34:15Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:15Speaker 02

  They just go analytically, uh, it wouldn't work.

• 1:34:18David Sims?

  You want sabermetrics, you know?

• 1:34:20Griffin Newman?

  That sabermetrics are ruining Hollywood 3.0.

• 1:34:22Speaker 02

  We are in the sabermetric period.

• 1:34:24Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:34:25Speaker 02

  Of Hollywood 3.0 or whatever.

• 1:34:28David Sims?

  I do love Hollywood 3.0 though. I take it all back. Hollywood 3.0 is better than ever.

• 1:34:32Griffin Newman?

  So then sabermetrics ruin Hollywood 2.0 and now we're building something new with 3.0?

• 1:34:36Speaker 02

  I hope so. I hope so. Cause it's disgusting to be honest with you.

• 1:34:39Griffin Newman?

  I think this is what the safeties do. And I think of the Scorsese influence that clearly is on their work. This is the movie that is the greatest driver.

• 1:34:48David Sims?

  And just the sort of the safty thing of like how, which can be uncomfortable and can kind of backfire of like, how close can we get to a real person that's uncomfortable for you and sort of, yeah.

• 1:34:58Speaker 02

  Now, have either of you ever met or seen Robert De Niro?

• 1:35:04David Sims?

  I have not. Nothing beyond a sort of a, you know, sort of press conference type scenario. No.

• 1:35:09Speaker 02

  I have, uh, and I have told my De Niro story on too many podcasts.

• 1:35:14David Sims?

  Okay.

• 1:35:15Speaker 02

  But there's a second De Niro.

• 1:35:16Griffin Newman?

  We will syndicate on social media.

• 1:35:18David Sims?

  Awkward encounter with him.

• 1:35:19Speaker 02

  I had a very, very awkward and wild, I kidnapped his kids for about 10 seconds.

• 1:35:25David Sims?

  Yes. I remember that. I have heard this story.

• 1:35:27Speaker 02

  It's an unbelievable thing.

• 1:35:28David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:35:29Speaker 02

  Saddled with it that, you know, I kidnapped my hero's kids by accident.

• 1:35:33Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:35:34David Sims?

  He's got twins. He's a twin dad like me.

• 1:35:36Speaker 02

  It was the twins that I kidnapped by, by accident. I just want to say.

• 1:35:40Griffin Newman?

  By accident.

• 1:35:41Speaker 02

  There was no deliberate kidnapping. It was actually their fault that they got kidnapped. That's a, but I'm not going to get into the story because anyone can look it up and you'll see that I'm not lying about that part of it.

• 1:35:51Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:51Speaker 02

  But the second story, so three years ago, I'm at, um, the SAG Awards for.

• 1:35:58Griffin Newman?

  The Oppenheimer or?

• 1:35:59David Sims?

  Oppenheimer.

• 1:35:59Speaker 02

  For Oppenheimer.

• 1:36:00Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:01Speaker 02

  And De Niro is there for Killers of the Flower Moon.

• 1:36:05Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:36:06Speaker 02

  And I go to the bathroom. The bathroom is back behind the curtains, uh, backstage. And I go to the bathroom and standing in front of the men's room, seemingly waiting for someone to come out is Robert De Niro. And I see him and people are asking to take pictures with him and he's obliging. I go in and I pee. I'm in there a reasonable amount of time. I come out, he's still out there. And I realize he's not waiting for anyone to come out of the bathroom. And what has formed is essentially a line of fans lined up to take pictures with Robert De Niro as if he's like some sort of Disney mascot.

• 1:36:46Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:47Speaker 02

  And he's happy to oblige. Now, this is clearly not the De Niro of 1980.

• 1:36:51Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 1:36:52Speaker 02

  There's no way this is the Nero of 1990, of 2000.

• 1:36:55Griffin Newman?

  That's someone who's accepted being the elder statesman.

• 1:36:57Speaker 02

  Correct. Older De Niro who loves it.

• 1:37:00Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:01Speaker 02

  Who loves the praise. And so I stand on line.

• 1:37:04Griffin Newman?

  Wow.

• 1:37:05Speaker 02

  I joined the line. Now I'd met him years prior. I assume there's no way he remembers me. And there wasn't. I went up to him and I said, hi, Mr. De Niro, I'm an actor too. I'm an Oppenheimer and I just want to say it's great to meet you. He has no idea who I am.

• 1:37:22Speaker 02

  And thankfully, because, you know, I don't think he loved the story of me kidnapping his children. And so, so I, I said, do you mind if I, I take a picture with you too? And he said, yes. And I took a picture and he said, cheese.

• 1:37:37Griffin Newman?

  Wow.

• 1:37:38Speaker 02

  And then I found out that's what he does. With every fan picture, he, he reflexively says cheese.

• 1:37:45David Sims?

  I mean, you're, they say it to smile, right?

• 1:37:47Speaker 02

  Right. So here's this guy who played Jake Lamotta.

• 1:37:50Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:37:51Speaker 02

  Who played, what's the name of the character in Cape Fear?

• 1:37:53David Sims?

  Max Cady. Yeah.

• 1:37:54Speaker 02

  Oh my God, this is all ridiculously complicated actor.

• 1:38:00David Sims?

  A person on screen where you're like, the devil's here, you know, like, yes.

• 1:38:04Speaker 02

  And then.

• 1:38:05David Sims?

  And then he did play the devil, of course.

• 1:38:06Speaker 02

  And then it's cheese.

• 1:38:07Griffin Newman?

  Well, there's a little bit of Jake Lamotta there with his dignity still intact.

• 1:38:11Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:38:11Griffin Newman?

  But especially when he had such a hard pivot to comedy.

• 1:38:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:38:14David Sims?

  When he did the comedies and then he did the sort of era of like showing up in weird kind of red boxy movies.

• 1:38:19Speaker 02

  De Niro doesn't get enough credit for being a great comedic actor with great comedic timing.

• 1:38:24David Sims?

  Very funny actor.

• 1:38:25Griffin Newman?

  But, but, you know.

• 1:38:27David Sims?

  Midnight Ram being.

• 1:38:27Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. He made himself more of a public figure. He made himself the spokesperson of Tribeca and started a festival and opened a bunch of restaurants.

• 1:38:34Speaker 02

  Politically charged and with his.

• 1:38:36David Sims?

  No, wait a second. Is he pro or anti?

• 1:38:39Griffin Newman?

  David?

• 1:38:40David Sims?

  David, has he come out on this?

• 1:38:41Griffin Newman?

  Pretty sure. He's taking a wait and see approach.

• 1:38:44David Sims?

  Was it Bo is afraid? There was some movie where he was doing, no, it was Megalopolis.

• 1:38:50Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 1:38:50David Sims?

  Where like he did a Q and A with Coppola?

• 1:38:53Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 1:38:53David Sims?

  And maybe Marty was there too. I can't even remember. But obviously he knows Coppola.

• 1:38:57Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:58David Sims?

  And like everyone who was there was like one minute in, he was like, and by the way, Trump is no good either. And everyone's like, he can't help himself a second, which I love. I love it.

• 1:39:08Speaker 02

  And I wonder if there.

• 1:39:09David Sims?

  Rumor MSNBC, you know, grandpa that he is.

• 1:39:12Speaker 02

  It feels very much like there's a personal issue too.

• 1:39:15Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:39:16Speaker 02

  Because.

• 1:39:17David Sims?

  This is a New York guy.

• 1:39:19Speaker 02

  And because De Niro kind of owns a lot of property in Tribeca.

• 1:39:23Griffin Newman?

  Yep.

• 1:39:23Speaker 02

  Which is, you know, and I'm sure Trump has his, you know, I'm, there must've been something that happened in the past. I just love when he's at that award show and he says, fuck Trump, but he doesn't just say fuck Trump. He puts his arms up like a champion.

• 1:39:35Griffin Newman?

  Yes. Yeah.

• 1:39:36Speaker 02

  He goes, I'm strong.

• 1:39:37David Sims?

  Here's what he is.

• 1:39:38Speaker 02

  Hulk Hogan.

• 1:39:38David Sims?

  Here's what he said. Just imagine Donald Trump directing this film. It'll never go anywhere. Where like, I'm sure everyone was like, I don't think anyone thought Trump was in the running on directing Megalopolis.

• 1:39:49Griffin Newman?

  By the way, you could say that about literally any movie. You could say, imagine Trump directing a Cinderella story. And I'm like, yeah, it wouldn't be good. The guy's not a good director. He lacks the basic experience to direct a motion picture.

• 1:39:59David Sims?

  And also I love Megalopolis. It's a fascinating document. That's not something where I was. Watching it be-

• 1:40:05Griffin Newman?

  Train on rails.

• 1:40:07David Sims?

  Thank God Trump didn't wreck this one.

• 1:40:09Griffin Newman?

  Do you remember, cause it relates back to this movie? When it was the early stages of first Trump presidency, De Niro going fuck Trump.

• 1:40:17David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:17Griffin Newman?

  And Trump made a public statement about it, maybe a tweet.

• 1:40:21Speaker 02

  Wash up Robert De Niro.

• 1:40:23Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:40:23Speaker 02

  He's a washed up old jerk bum.

• 1:40:25David Sims?

  Low IQ.

• 1:40:26Griffin Newman?

  Right, low IQ, right, right. He's lost his mind and he said, I think he made one too many boxing pictures. His slam on him was, oh, he's punch drunk.

• 1:40:34David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:40:34Griffin Newman?

  He's made one too many boxing pictures.

• 1:40:36Speaker 02

  He made one.

• 1:40:37Griffin Newman?

  He made Raging Bull. He made one second one, which is Grudge Match.

• 1:40:40David Sims?

  I was about to say, no, he made Grudge Match. Never forget.

• 1:40:42Griffin Newman?

  Which is De Niro versus Stallone.

• 1:40:45David Sims?

  Correct.

• 1:40:45Griffin Newman?

  And in this-

• 1:40:46Speaker 02

  One of Trump's favorite movies.

• 1:40:48Griffin Newman?

  This is what I was gonna say, but also within the same term, he gives Stallone like the National Medal of Honor.

• 1:40:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, so he's definitely seen Grudge Match.

• 1:40:55David Sims?

  And Stallone's made a couple, oh, he definitely watched Grudge Match.

• 1:40:57Griffin Newman?

  But you're not allowed to slam De Niro saying too many boxing pictures and be like, by the way, here's my best friend.

• 1:41:01David Sims?

  I'm sorry, are you saying this is where you draw the line on Trump?

• 1:41:04Griffin Newman?

  I have decided, and I'm using this episode to speak out against it, I do not like Donald Trump for this one reason.

• 1:41:23Speaker 02

  Can I take a moment?

• 1:41:25Griffin Newman?

  Please.

• 1:41:26Speaker 02

  Steal a moment away and just say that I know a lot of amazing actors who would say that without, that, yes, in a world of Pacinos and Hoffmans and Nickelsons and

• 1:41:39Griffin Newman?

  Devo.

• 1:41:40Speaker 02

  And, and, and, and Gina Rollins is, and Peter Fox, that they'd be nothing without Robert De Niro.

• 1:41:47Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:48Speaker 02

  That Robert De Niro laid so much groundwork for so much amazing work to come after. And he's still doing it. I mean, I don't know if you guys saw that Netflix series he did, that a lot of people didn't watch, unfortunately, where he plays the president.

• 1:42:05David Sims?

  Zero day.

• 1:42:06Speaker 02

  Zero day.

• 1:42:06David Sims?

  Zero day.

• 1:42:07Speaker 02

  Amazing, amazing performance. Again, it's ridiculous. It's another character. It's another thing. The guy, he's basically playing Joe Biden.

• 1:42:17David Sims?

  Mm-hmm, right. Like an elder statesman president dealing with a big crisis.

• 1:42:21Speaker 02

  The guy is just the ideal thing. And it's all like, there's nothing that isn't derivative at this point. It's, it's, it's one of those things. It's like Led Zeppelin or something, or Wu-Tang Clan. Where it's just completely, there's no way you can ever say that anything new

• 1:42:43Speaker 02

  wasn't influenced by that thing. De Niro is that. I don't know if Scorsese is that. I think Scorsese is a, definitely a dynamic filmmaker and definitely one of the, for me, top three of all time. But in terms of completely restructuring the art itself, no crumbs left on the plate.

• 1:43:03Griffin Newman?

  And that's from Krumholtz.

• 1:43:04Speaker 02

  Finishing, and that's from Krumholtz.

• 1:43:06Griffin Newman?

  That's from Krumholtz.

• 1:43:07Speaker 02

  God damn it, I hate that my name is David Krumholtz.

• 1:43:10Griffin Newman?

  Right, it's a great name.

• 1:43:12Speaker 02

  In this moment.

• 1:43:12Griffin Newman?

  It's a great name.

• 1:43:12Speaker 02

  Now, I just wanna say, God, I love, I just, I get emotional.

• 1:43:16Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:17Speaker 02

  I'm so glad that Robert De Niro exists.

• 1:43:22Speaker 02

  But to me, and I think he wants this, my guess is he doesn't want to exist. He wants his characters to.

• 1:43:30Griffin Newman?

  Well, it's the part of him that hates doing press.

• 1:43:32Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 1:43:32Griffin Newman?

  And seems like his toenails are being pulled out one by one.

• 1:43:35Speaker 02

  What an amazing, unique thing that is.

• 1:43:38Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:39Speaker 02

  An artist that doesn't wanna take credit for his art, in a way.

• 1:43:43Griffin Newman?

  And doesn't, yeah.

• 1:43:45Speaker 02

  It's so noble.

• 1:43:47Griffin Newman?

  Sort of like it came out of nowhere.

• 1:43:48Speaker 02

  It's noble.

• 1:43:49Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:43:50Speaker 02

  The profundity of what he was able to achieve amongst a world of actors. Wow. Robert De Niro.

• 1:43:57Griffin Newman?

  Good actor.

• 1:43:58Speaker 02

  Beyond.

• 1:43:58Griffin Newman?

  Good actor.

• 1:43:59Speaker 02

  Beyond, on another level. It's like this thing I read about Wu-Tang once. And you know, I love the Wu-Tang Clan, where it says, there's Wu-Tang and then there's also hip hop. You know?

• 1:44:12Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 1:44:12Speaker 02

  Robert De Niro is just its own singular thing, actor thing. I don't know how to do that. I don't know if anyone knows how to be that, how to live with that talent. All we can all do as a collective, especially as ethnic, you know, American actors.

• 1:44:31Griffin Newman?

  I know.

• 1:44:32Speaker 02

  Is strive for that. But there's no escaping, you, there's, you'll never be better than Robert De Niro. As an actor, you will never be better, pound for pound, than Robert De Niro.

• 1:44:45Griffin Newman?

  I also think-

• 1:44:46Speaker 02

  And that's okay.

• 1:44:46Griffin Newman?

  I think it's like Brando, where especially other guys of his generation, you see that everyone goes, this is the new thing to strive for. And I think De Niro is a thing that people strive for, and you can tell when people want to be De Niro.

• 1:45:02Speaker 02

  And of course, there's no De Niro without Brando.

• 1:45:04Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:45:04Speaker 02

  Right? De Niro just didn't just come out of nowhere.

• 1:45:06Griffin Newman?

  But he doesn't feel iterative. That's what's different.

• 1:45:09Speaker 02

  And he blasts that style through the stratosphere.

• 1:45:14Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:45:15Speaker 02

  So, so he sees an opening, oh shit, Brando's doing a more sort of nuanced, weird, subtle, off the cuff thing that no one else is allowed to do. I'm gonna, that's going to shoot, I'm gonna do that, but take it to, oh, an infinite level that, that again, I don't, there will never be another actor better than Robert De Niro. There will be actors that are good, as good, and there are. You know, Denzel and, you know, the list goes on and on.

• 1:45:43Speaker 02

  There is no such thing as better. And then you, it speaks to what is acting, right? What is it? It's a matter of degrees between the worst porn actor. No offense to porn. I certainly don't wanna offend off the pornography acting community. And Robert De Niro. That what is the tangible thing that makes De Niro better than your worst porn actor?

• 1:46:09Griffin Newman?

  Well, even as you said-

• 1:46:09Speaker 02

  There is nothing tangible.

• 1:46:11Griffin Newman?

  That this movie-

• 1:46:11Speaker 02

  It's a matter of degrees.

• 1:46:12Griffin Newman?

  Is going to build to, watching this guy give a bad performance night after night.

• 1:46:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:46:17Griffin Newman?

  That it takes a level of genius for De Niro to understand-

• 1:46:20Speaker 02

  What a bad performance is.

• 1:46:22Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:46:23Speaker 02

  And to be able to play it. I, I've seen, you know, actors play bad actors.

• 1:46:27Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:27Speaker 02

  No one does it as well as De Niro.

• 1:46:29Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 1:46:30Speaker 02

  It's sick. It's frightening. In many ways, De Niro is maybe the most frightening person on earth

• 1:46:38Speaker 02

  that has ever lived.

• 1:46:39Griffin Newman?

  Are there specific-

• 1:46:40Speaker 02

  But in a way that I love and revere him.

• 1:46:41Griffin Newman?

  Of cour-, no, of course.

• 1:46:42Speaker 02

  And I would wanna hug him and be his friend.

• 1:46:46Griffin Newman?

  Are there other specific scenes we wanna shout out?

• 1:46:48Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:46:49Griffin Newman?

  We're talking about the stakes scene a little bit.

• 1:46:50David Sims?

  Stakes scene right at the start, just to get a, an impression of like, this guy's been a piece of shit.

• 1:46:56Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:46:56David Sims?

  He's got a wife we're barely gonna get to know, that, you know, that he just clearly treats like garbage.

• 1:47:02Griffin Newman?

  We're watching the end of his first era. Yeah.

• 1:47:05David Sims?

  He did sort of the beginning of his star, his athlete stardom, but he's already, you know,

• 1:47:09Griffin Newman?

  Lamont is two point out.

• 1:47:10David Sims?

  Washing out of a marriage because he's an abusive piece of shit. Uh, there's all this stuff with Frank Vincent, who basically always plays a guy who's gonna like get the shit beat out of him in a Scorsese movie.

• 1:47:20Griffin Newman?

  Well, that's what's great.

• 1:47:21Speaker 02

  And that's what's so great about, and that's what's so great about Goodfellas.

• 1:47:25Griffin Newman?

  Oh, well, the strength box is the greatest scene in the history of movies.

• 1:47:28Speaker 02

  It's Scorsese going, I can do this twice and, and, and no one's, and he'll be better the second time.

• 1:47:34Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:47:34Speaker 02

  Amazing.

• 1:47:35David Sims?

  The, there's the, the pool, uh, you know, when they're at the pool.

• 1:47:39Griffin Newman?

  Talking through the fence.

• 1:47:40David Sims?

  Right, yeah. And talking about Cathy Moriarty, and you see the sort of, the seeds of his, um, what do you call it? Insecurity being planted right there.

• 1:47:51Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:51David Sims?

  Where Pesci's like, well, you know, you got this, you gotta-

• 1:47:54Griffin Newman?

  It's a girl you gotta go on a couple of dates with.

• 1:47:56David Sims?

  You gotta go on dates with. She's not just gonna sleep with you, you know, like, you know.

• 1:47:58Speaker 02

  And shot through the gate.

• 1:48:00Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:48:01Speaker 02

  Like he's in a cage.

• 1:48:02David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:48:03Griffin Newman?

  But Lamont is like- Caging her.

• 1:48:05David Sims?

  Lamont is just sitting out like, well, so you tried.

• 1:48:07Griffin Newman?

  She's gonna be trapped.

• 1:48:08David Sims?

  What you're telling me is you tried.

• 1:48:09Griffin Newman?

  You tried.

• 1:48:10David Sims?

  Cause he doesn't wanna be like sloppy seconds or whatever about it.

• 1:48:13Griffin Newman?

  But she didn't go. She didn't go.

• 1:48:14David Sims?

  Right. And so then there's the triumph of he gets her.

• 1:48:17Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:18David Sims?

  Um, but also, her performance is just amazing because you're just like-

• 1:48:22Speaker 02

  And she's 19.

• 1:48:23David Sims?

  That she's so young, but that just like, so immediately you understand like, oh, this is so much more than he can handle. Like, you know, like he just thought he was like getting some pretty young girl.

• 1:48:33Griffin Newman?

  That's where I can't believe that she's actually 19, because the amount of like presence and command she has holding her own in these scenes against these guys.

• 1:48:40Speaker 02

  She's probably scared shitless and she probably, it, it scared her into intimidated, I should use the, that's the word. Intimidated shitless and intimidated into just hanging on for dear life and not fucking a damn thing up.

• 1:48:53Griffin Newman?

  And by the end of the movie, she's playing 10, 15 years older than she is.

• 1:48:57Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:48:58Griffin Newman?

  And you buy it?

• 1:48:59Speaker 02

  Totally buy it.

• 1:48:59Griffin Newman?

  You, it feels more like it's a 30 year old playing young at the beginning than it does like a teenager playing old at the end.

• 1:49:07Speaker 02

  The contrast between the scene where, early on, where, where he tells Joey, you know, hit me, punch me. And Joey, you know, beats the, gives him a real good beating and even opens one of his cuts. You know, come on, that's not, come on, you hit me harder. What's wrong with you, fucker psycho? You want me to hit you harder? Boom, boom, boom. And the scene later, the did you fuck my wife scene? Where there's no physical violence.

• 1:49:36Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:36Speaker 02

  But it's the, the emotional violence between two brothers. You know, you're sick, but you know, you're a sick guy, you know, how, how, where do you get balls big enough to ask me that? Where do you get balls big enough to ask me that I fuck your wife? You know, and, and how hurt, how much more painful it is to watch these two brothers-

• 1:49:58Griffin Newman?

  Give me the right answer.

• 1:49:59Speaker 02

  Hurt each other like that.

• 1:50:01Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:01David Sims?

  Yeah, but-

• 1:50:02Speaker 02

  The older brother hurt him, you know?

• 1:50:03David Sims?

  I believe Joey's indignity and the questioning, and I believe Jake's like, oh, well, he's not saying it.

• 1:50:10Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:11David Sims?

  So it must be true.

• 1:50:12Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:50:12Speaker 02

  And, you know, Jake probably did hear things. And is it true?

• 1:50:17Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:18Speaker 02

  Did, did Vicky suck Joey's dick like she says she did later?

• 1:50:21Griffin Newman?

  And also-

• 1:50:22Speaker 02

  And talks about how, how his dick is bigger than, than Jake's?

• 1:50:25Griffin Newman?

  At this point-

• 1:50:25Speaker 02

  He had a bigger dick than you two.

• 1:50:26David Sims?

  She knows that a little bit, so no.

• 1:50:28Griffin Newman?

  She knows it.

• 1:50:28Speaker 02

  Or did it, is it true?

• 1:50:30Griffin Newman?

  At this point, how many years-

• 1:50:32Speaker 02

  Does Joe Pesci have a schwanz?

• 1:50:33Griffin Newman?

  Well, I think he does.

• 1:50:34Speaker 02

  And De Niro has a micro penis.

• 1:50:35Griffin Newman?

  I don't think you get that Pesci energy from nowhere. Uh-

• 1:50:39Speaker 02

  I think, yeah, Pesci's got a- Good hog.

• 1:50:42Griffin Newman?

  At this point.

• 1:50:45David Sims?

  Let's ask him.

• 1:50:45Griffin Newman?

  How many years have passed?

• 1:50:47David Sims?

  [email protected].

• 1:50:48Griffin Newman?

  Since, yes, since the Frank Vincent incident. So you're like, he's been holding on to this for.

• 1:50:55David Sims?

  Ten years, yeah.

• 1:50:56Speaker 02

  Oh, I don't know if it's that. In the movie?

• 1:50:58Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:59Speaker 02

  Oh, no, it's more like two, three years.

• 1:51:01Griffin Newman?

  Even still, like years have passed.

• 1:51:03Speaker 02

  He's holding on to, he must have heard something.

• 1:51:04Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:51:05Speaker 02

  You know, he just wants the truth out of his brother.

• 1:51:08Griffin Newman?

  He just can't get over this idea of.

• 1:51:10David Sims?

  It's five years. I just think.

• 1:51:11Speaker 02

  Okay, there you go.

• 1:51:12Griffin Newman?

  If you were this angry to attack this guy this badly, what other reason could possibly exist other than my wife at the center of it?

• 1:51:19David Sims?

  Their relationship, the brothers, you know, collapses in 1950. That's when the fight is. He loses that final fight to Sugar Ray in 51. You see.

• 1:51:27Griffin Newman?

  But he didn't go down.

• 1:51:28David Sims?

  Yes, but you see Joey at home watching it, knowing like, it's because I'm not there is part of this. He's just kind of like, he can't be controlled anymore. He's just wants to be murdered in the ring, essentially, or at least to prove something by like taking this ungodly beating and not falling down, right? Like the cuts to, you know, to Pesci watching it at home where he's just, it's not, I mean, I don't even get the sense that he's like, I'm failing my brother, but he is kind of like, I understand that a piece of him is gone.

• 1:51:56Griffin Newman?

  He's unbalanced now.

• 1:51:57Speaker 02

  There's also another scene toward the end where, you know, this is post-arrest, post-jail time. He's now doing stand-up as the opening act for a stripper that he's fucking.

• 1:52:09Griffin Newman?

  He doesn't have his own club anymore.

• 1:52:11Speaker 02

  In a tiny dive bar in New York City.

• 1:52:13Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:52:14Speaker 02

  And a guy is in the crowd heckling him, saying, you're not funny. You suck. And we know that Jake LaMotta, as we know him, would normally beat the fuck out of the guy.

• 1:52:24Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:25Speaker 02

  But he doesn't. He just kind of agrees. He's like, yeah, I do suck.

• 1:52:28Griffin Newman?

  You're gonna try to make me come out of retirement?

• 1:52:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. They're pissing his drink for me, bartender. In other words, he's, he's, he's completely castrated. There's no part of him that is even fighting anymore.

• 1:52:40Griffin Newman?

  I think beyond that, he knows he physically can't do it anymore.

• 1:52:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:52:43Griffin Newman?

  But he chooses stand-up. There's the earlier scene where he goes to the club and sees the performance, and I think he recognizes something in that guy of like, this is the closest thing to what I do. You are fighting the audience.

• 1:52:56Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:52:56Griffin Newman?

  And the command that guy has when he's able to throw off all these street jokes, but land them is a thing he envies.

• 1:53:03Speaker 02

  And what is Scorsese's follow-up, Raging Bull?

• 1:53:06Griffin Newman?

  King of comedy. Well, is there something in between? Or is it straight?

• 1:53:10Speaker 02

  That's a good question. I believe it's King of Comedy.

• 1:53:12Griffin Newman?

  Right? Yeah. Yeah. But it is, it is a thing. I mean, clearly right.

• 1:53:16Speaker 02

  A movie about a delusional comedian.

• 1:53:18Griffin Newman?

  Something in that sticks with De Niro.

• 1:53:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a, there's a, there's absolutely, it's like a part two almost.

• 1:53:25Griffin Newman?

  Right. And that guy's much closer to being a successful comedian. LaMotta, just like, it's back to what we were talking about, the rhythm's all wrong. You watch his stand-up and he's saying these jokes that are just a little bit off.

• 1:53:36Speaker 02

  There's the king of comedy, the spiritual sequel to Raging Bull.

• 1:53:40David Sims?

  It's part of the trilogy with Taxi Driver. You know, like, just like De Niro trying to plumb the depths of like a psychology. We, we are like transfixed by, but terrified.

• 1:53:50Griffin Newman?

  A guy obsessed with being a different type of guy.

• 1:53:53Speaker 02

  But you know why, though? Because he must be fascinated with De Niro.

• 1:53:56Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:53:57Speaker 02

  Scorsese's probably fascinated with De Niro.

• 1:54:00David Sims?

  Trying to crack him a little bit.

• 1:54:01Speaker 02

  Trying to crack that man.

• 1:54:03Griffin Newman?

  Well, you watch Mean Streets and it feels like watching a director fall in love with a star, you know? It feels as extreme as Bogdanovich introducing a Sybil Shepherd or whatever. There is those, that introduction, it's like, what the fuck is this that I have found? And I'm going to spend the rest of my life chasing this and studying this from all angles.

• 1:54:24Speaker 02

  And of course, De Niro, no doubt, is aware that he seriously stepped in some shit.

• 1:54:30Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:31Speaker 02

  Getting to work with Martin Scorsese.

• 1:54:33Griffin Newman?

  No one understands him better than this guy. No one knows how to use him better.

• 1:54:37Speaker 02

  It's that he's just one of the greatest filmmakers, period, end of story.

• 1:54:40Griffin Newman?

  He's got the right guy in his corner.

• 1:54:41Speaker 02

  It's amazing. The symbiosis, the whole thing, rare, rare.

• 1:54:46Griffin Newman?

  Rare, rare, rare. Um, I love them stitching the meat, talking about rare and Pesci timing, how quick they can do the stitch up on the cut. There's little details like that. Nicholas Colasanto, coach from Cheers. This is his last movie role.

• 1:55:02Speaker 02

  And do we know what great actor is an extra in the film?

• 1:55:06Griffin Newman?

  We looked this up right before, John Turturro.

• 1:55:08Speaker 02

  John Turturro. He's in the first club scene. They sit down at the table and who's sitting there? A very young John Turturro.

• 1:55:13Griffin Newman?

  That's his first credit.

• 1:55:14Speaker 02

  It's, yeah, but he doesn't say a word.

• 1:55:16Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:55:17David Sims?

  Um, that's sort of like the lingering element of the mob stuff, you know, that's in the movie still, but kind of.

• 1:55:24Griffin Newman?

  Sure, toned down.

• 1:55:26David Sims?

  Yeah, because like, that's a different story.

• 1:55:28Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:28David Sims?

  Like, we're trying to get inside the brain of this man. There's no doubt that the mob was, had heavy influence on New York's boxing scene in the 40s and 50s.

• 1:55:39Griffin Newman?

  But that's the least interesting thing going on in this guy's life.

• 1:55:41David Sims?

  Like, the movie's kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:55:42Griffin Newman?

  Right. That's De Grigor.

• 1:55:44David Sims?

  Uh, yeah, Michael Badalucio's in this film. It's like a soda jerk.

• 1:55:48Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 1:55:48David Sims?

  Like, you know, like, you know, just funny to think about, like, guys who had tiny little roles. Um, there's a lot of people in the movie, like, that are sort of hanging around, but like, it, it really is basically just the, the three.

• 1:56:02Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:03David Sims?

  Like, people like Frank Vincent, Nicholas Colasanto, you know, like, they're in and out for little bits, right? Um, his dad's in this movie, Charles Scorsese.

• 1:56:12Griffin Newman?

  This is the first one.

• 1:56:13David Sims?

  For the first time, it's like one of the monsters. Yes.

• 1:56:16Griffin Newman?

  I mean, and we talked about this in the Scorsese Shorts episode we did on Patreon, but Italian-American and American boy really, I think, teach him the rhythm that he wants to replicate in his dialogue.

• 1:56:27David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:27Griffin Newman?

  It's how to get improv, to get the feeling of that sort of conversational pattern in the back and forth. And so much of his parents fighting in Italian-American is the feeling of the family fight scenes in this movie.

• 1:56:40Speaker 02

  No, and that's the other thing about this movie, and like all great Scorsese movies, not all, not all of them have this, but it's, it's indelibly Italian.

• 1:56:49Griffin Newman?

  It is.

• 1:56:50Speaker 02

  American.

• 1:56:51Griffin Newman?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:56:51Speaker 02

  A question, is LaMotta in the movie? I thought at one point that he's the referee that hands.

• 1:56:57David Sims?

  He's definitely in the movie.

• 1:56:58Speaker 02

  The belt over to.

• 1:57:00David Sims?

  Yes, I think that's who he plays.

• 1:57:01Speaker 02

  To De Niro and De Niro finally wins the championship. There's a shot of the referee walking toward the camera, and I feel like that is LaMotta, but I might be wrong.

• 1:57:09David Sims?

  Maybe I'm wrong.

• 1:57:10Speaker 02

  I might be wrong. I maybe.

• 1:57:11David Sims?

  I don't know.

• 1:57:11Speaker 02

  LaMotta's not in the movie.

• 1:57:13David Sims?

  Yeah, I'm not seeing anything actually. I don't know. Not sure. He was certainly there. He said that De Niro got so good at boxing that he was like, I think that guy could have like held his own in the ring. Like, he was impressed with him, but obviously he's also, you know, he's being a schmoozer.

• 1:57:27Griffin Newman?

  According to IMDb, LaMotta's not in this.

• 1:57:30David Sims?

  Yeah, I, I couldn't find him either, yeah.

• 1:57:32Griffin Newman?

  He does have like a weird semi-resurgence of acting roles.

• 1:57:36Speaker 02

  LaMotta?

• 1:57:37Griffin Newman?

  Yes. He's in a 87 movie called Hangman. He's a detective in Maniac Cop in 88. He's in a movie called Mob War. So he does sort of, and he has like credits leading up to this.

• 1:57:50Speaker 02

  I can't believe you just said Mob War.

• 1:57:52Griffin Newman?

  Why? Do you know Mob War?

• 1:57:54Speaker 02

  I am in Mob War.

• 1:57:55Griffin Newman?

  You're in Mob War?

• 1:57:56Speaker 02

  No, I'm kidding.

• 1:57:57Griffin Newman?

  No, okay.

• 1:57:58Speaker 02

  You believed it, though.

• 1:57:59Griffin Newman?

  I did believe it.

• 1:58:00Speaker 02

  And it's believable.

• 1:58:01Griffin Newman?

  I did believe it.

• 1:58:02Speaker 02

  Like, as a nine-year-old, I would be in a movie called Mob War.

• 1:58:05Griffin Newman?

  Sure. You could have been Little Jimmy down the street in Mob War.

• 1:58:09Speaker 02

  Little Jimmy, Jimmy Blumbo.

• 1:58:11Griffin Newman?

  Um, we haven't mentioned.

• 1:58:13Speaker 02

  Jim Blumbo.

• 1:58:13Griffin Newman?

  A wild thing about this movie is that it's produced by Erwin Winkler, who not only had produced New York, New York.

• 1:58:20David Sims?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:58:20Griffin Newman?

  Which was his biggest failure, but also produced the Rocky movies. Like, he's, he's willingly signing off to make an anti-Rocky.

• 1:58:29David Sims?

  I think that was part of the appeal.

• 1:58:30Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, it's, it's bold of him, though.

• 1:58:32David Sims?

  Yes, it is bold of him, but I mean, he's, obviously, part of the problem with New York, New York is he's not someone who'd ever made a musical before, and so is a producer. They keep running like wildly over schedule and all this. With this, at least, he knows like exactly how to do it.

• 1:58:48Griffin Newman?

  But this was an expensive movie.

• 1:58:50David Sims?

  Yes, uh, sure. It cost $18 million and it made like 25. It wasn't a success, per se, on release. We can talk about that. Just to tell you a couple of other things, you know, when they're in the final edit, they have like some deadline. It was opening on Friday and it's like Sunday. They gotta be done. They have a print, uh, they have to get it like over to the lab by midnight, and Marty doesn't like that. There's this one scene where a minor character played by Marty's father is ordering a drink, ordering a Cuddy Sark, the whiskey, and Marty's like, you can't hear him saying it. You can't fucking hear Cuddy Sark. And they're like, too bad, we're done. Yeah, we gotta get that. And he says, I'm gonna take my name off the film. And they're just like, Winkler apparently

• 1:59:35David Sims?

  is just like, yeah, okay, well, you can take your name off the film, but it's going to the lab.

• 1:59:39Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:39David Sims?

  You know, like, so they finally had to like calm him down. And Scorsese's like, I realize I was finally, I was near collapse. Like, I basically had walking pneumonia. It wasn't a drug thing anymore, but the movie like just wiped me out. And it comes out, it's not really a hit, but it is well-received. There are some holdouts. Cambie, Vincent Cambie in The Times kind of panned it. Pauline Kael, who's obviously tough, always tough to predict. She kind of panned it.

• 2:00:07Speaker 02

  How? What in the world? How? What? Oh my, what? What right, with what righteousness can you pan Raging Bull? Oh my God, that disgusts me.

• 2:00:20Griffin Newman?

  But as you said, people didn't have a frame of reference for it. It was.

• 2:00:23Speaker 02

  Who gives a shit? And yes, they did, you know, Citizen Kane, baby.

• 2:00:28Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, well, people didn't get Citizen Kane at the time.

• 2:00:30Speaker 02

  God, I hate, oh my God. This is enraging, knowing this.

• 2:00:35Griffin Newman?

  Enraging Bull.

• 2:00:38David Sims?

  Kinkley tries to shoot Reagan the day before the Oscars and the Oscars get postponed.

• 2:00:45Griffin Newman?

  Well, Scorsese shows up to the Oscars for this movie surrounded by bodyguards.

• 2:00:49David Sims?

  Yeah, I guess that's everyone's, the security was just insane.

• 2:00:53Griffin Newman?

  He dressed them up and just fancy tuxedos and acted like they were just his entourage. But he was worried that he was gonna get shot.

• 2:00:59David Sims?

  Right. Thelma's filmmaker wins the only other Oscar for editing and she says like, it was Marty's Oscar. I felt like I was winning for the fight sequences and those fight weekend sequences were designed by him. You know what I mean? Like as much as I did a good job editing the film, like I felt like I was getting his trophy.

• 2:01:15Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:01:15David Sims?

  Right. And obviously like Robert Redford wins and Ordinary People is an excellent movie. And like was kind of an earthquake. It's like, this is the thing I try to tell people when they're like, I can't believe like Marty lost.

• 2:01:26Griffin Newman?

  It was a much bigger hit.

• 2:01:28David Sims?

  It was a much bigger hit, but it was also just like a new kind of movie in a way. And it was talking about stuff that movies weren't really like starting to talk about yet. It's kind of like upper middle class, like psychological crisis movie.

• 2:01:39Speaker 02

  And we know how much Oscars just will not respect comedy.

• 2:01:43Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 2:01:43Speaker 02

  And Ordinary People is a flat, straightforward drama.

• 2:01:47Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:01:48Speaker 02

  And this movie is Raging Bull, or the chances of it winning hurt by it being somewhat funny in parts.

• 2:01:55David Sims?

  And it's also just a movie that everyone is not sure what to think about.

• 2:01:58Griffin Newman?

  I also, I think Ordinary People is like a difficult film. It is an emotionally like challenging film.

• 2:02:03David Sims?

  It's a good movie. I like Ordinary People.

• 2:02:04Griffin Newman?

  But it ends with catharsis. It ends with the son telling the mom off. And the audience doesn't leave feeling good, but they leave feeling like some progress was made here.

• 2:02:12David Sims?

  And knowing what they've been, what they've been told to feel and not feel it. Yes.

• 2:02:15Speaker 02

  No, this is subversive. This is provocative.

• 2:02:17Griffin Newman?

  Yes. I also just want to call out Cathy Moriarty, most of the reviews are sort of like, where the fuck did they find this person? She gets an Oscar nomination. She follows this up with Neighbors, the John Avildsen Belushiacroid movie.

• 2:02:32David Sims?

  True.

• 2:02:32Griffin Newman?

  And then she gets in a really bad automobile accident and doesn't act for like another five years. And it does kind of really throw her career out of whack. She had like intensive back surgery, I believe. But also she just said that there was this thing of like, everyone discovers her, goes like, this is the great new ingenue. Immediately can you lose the accent? That there was this real push of like, how do we get rid of the thing that made you unique in the first place?

• 2:02:58David Sims?

  That's sad. That's unfortunate. She's still working to this day.

• 2:03:03Speaker 02

  She owns, uh, I don't know if it's still open, but she owned a very popular pizza.

• 2:03:09Griffin Newman?

  Mulberry Street.

• 2:03:09Speaker 02

  Mulberry Street Pizza in Beverly Hills.

• 2:03:12David Sims?

  Yeah. Uh, I think four locations, I think, in Southern California. So, uh, that's, you know, like the film I would say is

• 2:03:23David Sims?

  pretty quickly though, I think highly, you know what I mean? Like.

• 2:03:25Griffin Newman?

  It was the most nominated film that year.

• 2:03:27David Sims?

  Yes. And it's just kind of like, maybe the financial thing is not, you know, obviously a movie like this pays long dividends. When it becomes such an established classic and all that. The next one, King of Comedy, that's the one where I feel like Marty again is starting to sweat. And then like the next two movies he makes are both kind of like, well, I gotta make something after hours and, and.

• 2:03:48Griffin Newman?

  I need to get back in good graces. Yes.

• 2:03:51David Sims?

  Uh, and obviously I love both those movies, but like, you know, it's, it's not until Last Temptation, I feel like that Marty is again making like,

• 2:03:58Griffin Newman?

  His passion project.

• 2:03:59David Sims?

  A more direct vision of his.

• 2:04:01Griffin Newman?

  Agreed.

• 2:04:02David Sims?

  Uh, The Box Office Game, this film, Griffin came out on November, I get it right, 14th.

• 2:04:09Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:04:09David Sims?

  1980, uh, first in New York City, uh, you know, in limited release, but it is on the top 10 here.

• 2:04:15Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:04:16David Sims?

  At number 10.

• 2:04:17Griffin Newman?

  It must've opened at like the Ziegfeld or something with a crazy perspiration average.

• 2:04:20David Sims?

  It's making $185,000. Number one at the box office. It's not a film we've covered, but we've covered, um, works, uh, one of the writers on this, we've covered her directorial works.

• 2:04:33Griffin Newman?

  Okay. So is it, it's either a Nancy or it's a Nora? Is it Heartburn?

• 2:04:38David Sims?

  Nope.

• 2:04:39Griffin Newman?

  Is it a Nancy?

• 2:04:40David Sims?

  Yes. I mean, she wrote it.

• 2:04:42Griffin Newman?

  Is it Private Benjamin?

• 2:04:43David Sims?

  It's Private Benjamin.

• 2:04:44Griffin Newman?

  There we go. You got any Private Benjamin thoughts?

• 2:04:47Speaker 02

  Oh, I haven't seen that movie in a very, very, very long time.

• 2:04:49David Sims?

  I haven't, I haven't seen that movie in a very long time either. It's very fun.

• 2:04:52Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:52David Sims?

  I like, what I like about it is that it's like, you know, it's kind of dark. It's kind of all over the place. Like it's a wacky movie, but it's like, it's got a, you know.

• 2:04:59Griffin Newman?

  Opens with a death.

• 2:05:00David Sims?

  Grimness to it. Yeah. Uh, it's a fascinating film. It was a huge hit.

• 2:05:04Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:04David Sims?

  Uh, and it got, uh, Nancy Oscar nom. It got three Oscar nominations total. Uh, and it's been number one, I think for like two months. It's a big hit.

• 2:05:13Griffin Newman?

  Runaway smash.

• 2:05:14David Sims?

  Number two at the box office, we just talked about it. Best Picture winner in 1980.

• 2:05:17Griffin Newman?

  Ordinary People.

• 2:05:18David Sims?

  Ordinary People. Another big hit. Uh, so, you know, we're in this like, you know, so far, like we've got a comedy, we've got a drama.

• 2:05:26Griffin Newman?

  This is movies that have stood the test of time.

• 2:05:28David Sims?

  Number three at the box office, which was, I would say a flop.

• 2:05:33David Sims?

  A film from a very, a very good director, a female director of very few, obviously were out there back then. Um, but this was kind of her like mainstream swing and it doesn't work. It's a comedy and a drama. I don't know if you know this movie. I mean, maybe you do.

• 2:05:48Griffin Newman?

  It's a, it's a female director.

• 2:05:49Speaker 02

  Who's the female? Is it Penny Marshall? No, she wasn't directing.

• 2:05:52Griffin Newman?

  It's not like Joan McLean Silver.

• 2:05:54David Sims?

  It's not, but it's sort of, it's more in that realm. It's someone who had made an indie film in 1978 that is a wonderful.

• 2:06:00Griffin Newman?

  Cloddy Whale?

• 2:06:01David Sims?

  Cloddy Whale.

• 2:06:02Griffin Newman?

  Whale.

• 2:06:04Griffin Newman?

  And this movie.

• 2:06:04David Sims?

  Who had made Girlfriends in 78. And this is her, this is her studio film.

• 2:06:08Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:06:09David Sims?

  It's from Columbia.

• 2:06:10Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:06:10David Sims?

  The stars are Michael Douglas and Jill Clayberg.

• 2:06:12Griffin Newman?

  Ooh.

• 2:06:13David Sims?

  Charles Grodin in a supporting role.

• 2:06:15Griffin Newman?

  Oh, what's this movie called?

• 2:06:17David Sims?

  It's got a little bit of an anonymous title. After this, she only makes TV movies because like, it's kind of like, well, that didn't work and you're a lady, so.

• 2:06:24Griffin Newman?

  It's not starting over.

• 2:06:26David Sims?

  No.

• 2:06:26Griffin Newman?

  It's not, seems like old times. I'm throwing out other movies that have posters with two smiling actors.

• 2:06:30David Sims?

  It's got a song that's sung by Diana Ross and it's named after the song.

• 2:06:34Griffin Newman?

  Huh. Uh, what's it called?

• 2:06:35David Sims?

  It's called It's My Turn.

• 2:06:37Griffin Newman?

  There we go.

• 2:06:38David Sims?

  Um, but it was kind of bodied by critics and even rudely got like a golden raspberry nom in like the sort of early evil years of that organization.

• 2:06:45Griffin Newman?

  One strike, you're out on her career sadly.

• 2:06:47David Sims?

  Very much so.

• 2:06:47Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:06:48David Sims?

  It's like, Jill Clayberg's like a divorcee maybe, or she's like a professor and then she meets this like widowed dad who's played by Michael Douglas and they have a, you know, romance. I think, you know, it's pretty low stakes in a way, but I've never seen it. I should see it. Number four at the box office. It's one of your favorite films of 1980.

• 2:07:08Griffin Newman?

  It's one of my favorite films of 1980.

• 2:07:09David Sims?

  It's your favorite film by this director. We've covered it on the podcast.

• 2:07:12Griffin Newman?

  Is it the movie Thief?

• 2:07:13David Sims?

  Nope. Nope.

• 2:07:14Griffin Newman?

  That was a good guess.

• 2:07:15David Sims?

  Solid guess.

• 2:07:16Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:17David Sims?

  Uh, it's another Best Picture nominee of the year. And it's another kind of like smaller director making a more mainstream film.

• 2:07:26Griffin Newman?

  Smaller director making a more mainstream film. We've covered it on this podcast.

• 2:07:31David Sims?

  It's one of your, it's one of Griffin's favorites.

• 2:07:33Griffin Newman?

  My favorites and I ranked it as their top film, you think?

• 2:07:36David Sims?

  I think this is your favorite of his films.

• 2:07:39Griffin Newman?

  Whoa.

• 2:07:40David Sims?

  Yes. And he's obvious, he's a totemic director. He recently died.

• 2:07:43Speaker 02

  Recently died.

• 2:07:44David Sims?

  Yes.

• 2:07:44Griffin Newman?

  He recently died.

• 2:07:45David Sims?

  He did. It was sad.

• 2:07:49Speaker 02

  Like recently, like?

• 2:07:50David Sims?

  Last year.

• 2:07:51Speaker 02

  Oh, last year.

• 2:07:52David Sims?

  Last year.

• 2:07:53Griffin Newman?

  And he's one of my guys?

• 2:07:55David Sims?

  Uh, no, I would say not as much one of your guys. Maybe more one of my guys than your guys, given that we covered him on the show. I feel like he's more one of my guys, but this is your favorite. The biopic?

• 2:08:06Griffin Newman?

  It's a biopic.

• 2:08:07David Sims?

  Whoa, yes.

• 2:08:08Griffin Newman?

  Um.

• 2:08:10David Sims?

  True story, biopic, biopic.

• 2:08:12Griffin Newman?

  It's a true story biopic.

• 2:08:15Speaker 02

  In 1980.

• 2:08:16Griffin Newman?

  Um, it's not, it's not Star 80. No.

• 2:08:21David Sims?

  No.

• 2:08:22Griffin Newman?

  Bob Fosse didn't die last year. Um, why, why am I blanking on this?

• 2:08:26David Sims?

  I don't know, because it's sort of one people forget. It was nominated for eight Oscars.

• 2:08:29Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 2:08:30David Sims?

  So it tied Raging Bull for the most noms that year, actually.

• 2:08:33Griffin Newman?

  Who's the star of this picture? It's, give it away.

• 2:08:35David Sims?

  John Hurt.

• 2:08:38Griffin Newman?

  John, oh, it's the Elephant Man.

• 2:08:39David Sims?

  Elephant.

• 2:08:40Griffin Newman?

  It is my favorite. It is my favorite. You're right.

• 2:08:43David Sims?

  Uh, nominated for eight Oscars, won none.

• 2:08:45Griffin Newman?

  That way.

• 2:08:45David Sims?

  But it is.

• 2:08:46Griffin Newman?

  No, of course it is.

• 2:08:47David Sims?

  And yet it is.

• 2:08:48Griffin Newman?

  Of course it is.

• 2:08:49David Sims?

  Uh, so that's also, I think it more of a hit in a way than Raging Bull was.

• 2:08:54Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:54David Sims?

  Number five at the box office is a film from one of your favorite directors. But I think it is not one of your favorites of his. It's a sort of a more mainstream movie from him.

• 2:09:06Griffin Newman?

  It's not Popeye.

• 2:09:07David Sims?

  No. Cause you love that movie.

• 2:09:09Griffin Newman?

  It is a movie I love.

• 2:09:10David Sims?

  This is, who's maybe your favorite director?

• 2:09:12Griffin Newman?

  Beyond Robert Altman.

• 2:09:14David Sims?

  Beyond Robert Altman.

• 2:09:15Griffin Newman?

  Is it Lumet?

• 2:09:15David Sims?

  No. That's another choice, obviously, for you.

• 2:09:18Griffin Newman?

  It's not Verhoeven.

• 2:09:19David Sims?

  No.

• 2:09:22Griffin Newman?

  This is like an obvious?

• 2:09:23David Sims?

  It's a pretty big guy for you. You want to do him on the show. I've worried it'd be a little samey.

• 2:09:28Griffin Newman?

  Um, you've worried it-

• 2:09:30David Sims?

  I think he's a great filmmaker. As did Martin Scorsese.

• 2:09:34Griffin Newman?

  You've worried that it would be samey. I've wanted to do him.

• 2:09:39Griffin Newman?

  What, why am I blanking on these today? Give me something else.

• 2:09:42David Sims?

  Is it Gilliam?

• 2:09:44Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 2:09:44David Sims?

  No.

• 2:09:44Griffin Newman?

  What's the genre of this movie?

• 2:09:46David Sims?

  It's a crime thriller.

• 2:09:48Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:09:49David Sims?

  Yes. It's got a sort of, you know, it's like him doing his version of a crime movie, sort of like a pop.

• 2:09:56Griffin Newman?

  Oh, this is Gloria.

• 2:09:57David Sims?

  John Cassavetes Gloria.

• 2:09:58Griffin Newman?

  There we go.

• 2:09:59David Sims?

  Which is a film, I just feel, it's not like you don't like Gloria.

• 2:10:02Griffin Newman?

  No, I love Gloria. I think you-

• 2:10:03David Sims?

  It's not your favorite of his?

• 2:10:05Griffin Newman?

  It's not my favorite, but it's up there.

• 2:10:06David Sims?

  Okay.

• 2:10:06Griffin Newman?

  I love Gloria.

• 2:10:07David Sims?

  I mean, it's a great movie.

• 2:10:08Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, rules.

• 2:10:09David Sims?

  Why did I think you didn't like it as much?

• 2:10:10Griffin Newman?

  I have no idea.

• 2:10:11David Sims?

  Okay, all right.

• 2:10:12Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:12David Sims?

  All right, I'm wrong?

• 2:10:12Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, I love Gloria.

• 2:10:14David Sims?

  Do you not like any Cassavetes movies?

• 2:10:17Griffin Newman?

  Um.

• 2:10:18David Sims?

  I've never seen Love Streams.

• 2:10:21Griffin Newman?

  I like Love Streams.

• 2:10:22David Sims?

  Yeah, and I've never seen Big Trouble.

• 2:10:23Griffin Newman?

  Big Trouble's the one I still haven't seen.

• 2:10:25David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:10:26Griffin Newman?

  Otherwise, I think I like them all.

• 2:10:30David Sims?

  Do you like Cassavetes?

• 2:10:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, uh, yeah. I, I guess I feel like, I want to say, every time I've watched a Cassavetes film, I feel the, this is weird to say, but I feel the camera in a weird way, if that makes sense.

• 2:10:56Griffin Newman?

  He makes the camera announce itself.

• 2:10:58Speaker 02

  A little bit, and it kind of takes me out.

• 2:11:00Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:02David Sims?

  Um, but I'm not wrong that Gloria is like, you know, him being like-

• 2:11:07Griffin Newman?

  It was him trying to play the studio game.

• 2:11:09David Sims?

  Yeah, like, can I make you a more kind of straightforward, like, movie with a premise that you can kind of sell and-

• 2:11:15Griffin Newman?

  And it did fairly well.

• 2:11:16David Sims?

  Did fairly well.

• 2:11:16Griffin Newman?

  And she got an Oscar nomination.

• 2:11:18David Sims?

  And she fucking rocks in it.

• 2:11:19Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:19David Sims?

  Um, but it still has plenty of people screaming while the camera is close to their faces, so don't you worry.

• 2:11:25Griffin Newman?

  The little boy won the Razzie, I believe, which was really rude.

• 2:11:28David Sims?

  This is, it's the first year of the Razzies, where they're like, do we hate The Shining?

• 2:11:32Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:32David Sims?

  You know, and then like later even the Razzies are somewhat embarrassed by their first, you know, awards. Um, number six at the box office, so that was the five. Number six is Fade to Black.

• 2:11:44Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:11:45David Sims?

  Which is a horror, like comedy, it's like a weird little indie movie. Uh, where a cinephile starts to turn into like famous film characters to kill people.

• 2:11:55Griffin Newman?

  That sounds good.

• 2:11:56David Sims?

  I've never seen it. It sounds very cool. I've seen it like written up as a sort of like forgotten cult classic. Uh, very popular in France, and that's when you know a movie's normal.

• 2:12:05Griffin Newman?

  Of course.

• 2:12:06David Sims?

  Uh, number seven at the box office is the musical drama The Idol Maker.

• 2:12:10Griffin Newman?

  Oh, yes.

• 2:12:11David Sims?

  The first Taylor Hackford film, speaking of, right? Which you were in.

• 2:12:14Speaker 02

  I'm, yes, correct.

• 2:12:15Griffin Newman?

  Ray Sharkey?

• 2:12:16David Sims?

  Starring Ray Sharkey and Peter Gallagher.

• 2:12:18Griffin Newman?

  Which Derek C. in France and Ryan Gosling kept threatening to remake.

• 2:12:23David Sims?

  Somebody stop him!

• 2:12:24Griffin Newman?

  I know, it didn't happen.

• 2:12:25David Sims?

  I don't know anything about it, except that it's sort of like about a singer, like, who becomes famous?

• 2:12:30Griffin Newman?

  It's about, it's about like a producer manager, I think. It's about the one who makes the idol.

• 2:12:34Speaker 02

  I heard a story about a party at Ray Sharkey's house in the early eighties in the Hollywood Hills, in which a live pig was slaughtered.

• 2:12:43Griffin Newman?

  Ray Sharkey, one of the darkest figures of the post-New Hollywood movement.

• 2:12:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:12:48Griffin Newman?

  Yes. Uh, I believe that story. If you go to Ray Sharkey's Wikipedia page, you'll believe any story about him.

• 2:12:54David Sims?

  Um, number, uh, eight at the box office is The Stuntman, the great Peter O'Toole movie.

• 2:13:01Griffin Newman?

  Richard Rush.

• 2:13:02David Sims?

  Her film, yep. Uh, number nine is a movie I've never heard of called Kill or Be Killed.

• 2:13:07Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:13:07David Sims?

  Which is, oh, a South African martial arts film.

• 2:13:10Griffin Newman?

  Cool.

• 2:13:11David Sims?

  That was, that was called Karate Olympiad, retitled Kill or Be Killed, and released in 1980 in the United States.

• 2:13:18Griffin Newman?

  Wow.

• 2:13:19David Sims?

  Wow, never heard of it. And number 10 at the box office, Raging Bull. So there you go.

• 2:13:23Griffin Newman?

  There we go.

• 2:13:23David Sims?

  That's the box office of the year, a very, a very interesting package of movies.

• 2:13:26Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:13:27David Sims?

  People had interesting movies to show you in 1980.

• 2:13:29Griffin Newman?

  They did. Things were happening.

• 2:13:30David Sims?

  You know what I mean? Like Gloria, Ordinary People, Elephant Man are all in the top five.

• 2:13:33Speaker 02

  Take your pick.

• 2:13:34Griffin Newman?

  It's a good Oscar year.

• 2:13:35Speaker 02

  It's a popery.

• 2:13:36David Sims?

  It is a good Oscar year.

• 2:13:36Speaker 02

  It's, it's, yeah.

• 2:13:38David Sims?

  So that's Raging Bull. Uh, David, anything, uh, you want to plug?

• 2:13:43Speaker 02

  Plug?

• 2:13:43David Sims?

  Start a podcast.

• 2:13:44Griffin Newman?

  Plug.

• 2:13:45Speaker 02

  I mean, plug? Jesus Christ. I hate to hear myself do this, but I'm in a sports film. It's my first sports genre film called Mr. Irrelevant. Comes out Christmas Day, a week after Doomsday and Dune Three.

• 2:14:01Griffin Newman?

  Perfect.

• 2:14:02Speaker 02

  Perfect time, lots of people being theaters. It's an alternative-

• 2:14:05Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:14:06Speaker 02

  Film to those big giant movies. Go see it. I hear it's lovely. I have yet to see it. I hear it's, it's, it's wonderful. Testing Through the Roof, did we mention that?

• 2:14:15Griffin Newman?

  We mentioned it's Testing Through the Roof.

• 2:14:17Speaker 02

  It's Testing Through the Roof. So that's all I got. Uh, that and, um,

• 2:14:23Speaker 02

  I'm playing a Grateful Dead show tomorrow night. This won't air.

• 2:14:27Griffin Newman?

  No, this won't air.

• 2:14:28David Sims?

  This is gonna come out in, uh, September.

• 2:14:30Speaker 02

  But I'm gonna plug it, knowing-

• 2:14:32Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:14:33Speaker 02

  That it will be months late.

• 2:14:36Griffin Newman?

  You're playing-

• 2:14:37Speaker 02

  I'm playing at the Orange Lantern in Paramus, New Jersey.

• 2:14:39Griffin Newman?

  Playing Grateful Dead songs.

• 2:14:41Speaker 02

  Grateful Dead with, with a band called Golden String Fiddle.

• 2:14:44Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:14:45Speaker 02

  By the time you hear this, I will have played the show.

• 2:14:48Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:14:49Speaker 02

  Uh, I just want to let people know I'm doing it. That's what I do with my life.

• 2:14:54Speaker 02

  I play at a place called The Orange Lantern in Paramus.

• 2:14:58David Sims?

  Guitar?

• 2:15:00Speaker 02

  Uh, no, I play bongos, if you must know.

• 2:15:02David Sims?

  Really?

• 2:15:02Speaker 02

  But I sing. The only reason I play bongos is because all I did was sing.

• 2:15:07Griffin Newman?

  You needed something to do with your hands.

• 2:15:09Speaker 02

  I was asked to, uh, to pick up an instrument, and the easiest thing was the bongos.

• 2:15:13Griffin Newman?

  Perfect.

• 2:15:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I'm an incredible bongo player.

• 2:15:16Griffin Newman?

  I, I believe it. You have the intensity for it.

• 2:15:18Speaker 02

  I'm a real bongo boy.

• 2:15:19Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. Uh, thank you for being here.

• 2:15:22Speaker 02

  Dude, you guys are awesome, and this one, it really is an honor to be asked to do this particular film.

• 2:15:29Griffin Newman?

  We were floating names, we were floating ideas, and the second your name came up, it felt kind of right.

• 2:15:33Speaker 02

  I'm just glad, like, you've never asked me to do, like, a Holocaust thing, drama, or some sort of, like, Jewish themed thing.

• 2:15:41Griffin Newman?

  No Talmudic movies.

• 2:15:42Speaker 02

  I really appreciate that.

• 2:15:44Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:15:44Speaker 02

  I figured you guys have that covered to some extent.

• 2:15:46Griffin Newman?

  Do you feel like that's usually what you get asked to do?

• 2:15:48Speaker 02

  I just don't know. No, I'm not saying that. I just don't like the idea that I'm the go-to Jew for that. I have no opinion on, on those films.

• 2:15:58Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 2:15:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15:59David Sims?

  Oh, tune in next week for The King of Comedy.

• 2:16:02Griffin Newman?

  With Stavros, uh, Hawkeye.

• 2:16:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:16:04Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:16:05David Sims?

  Great.

• 2:16:05Griffin Newman?

  The king of comedy himself.

• 2:16:06David Sims?

  Love it.

• 2:16:07Griffin Newman?

  Um, we're, we're getting into it. Is Rupert Pumpkin funny?

• 2:16:11David Sims?

  Sure.

• 2:16:12Griffin Newman?

  Our argument is almost. You got close.

• 2:16:15David Sims?

  Over on Patreon, a few days ago, we released our episode on The Last Waltz.

• 2:16:20Griffin Newman?

  Hey, we did it. We're sorry it's on Patreon. This is the longest filmography we've ever covered.

• 2:16:25Speaker 02

  What, what are you doing beyond, uh, The King of Comedy? You doing Last Temptation?

• 2:16:30Griffin Newman?

  We're doing everything.

• 2:16:31Speaker 02

  You're doing everything?

• 2:16:32Griffin Newman?

  We're doing everything.

• 2:16:33David Sims?

  We're doing the whole filmography, baby.

• 2:16:33Griffin Newman?

  That's why Last Waltz is on Patreon, because we're doing everything.

• 2:16:36Speaker 02

  You're doing, what is that? The one with Brad Pitt, uh?

• 2:16:40Griffin Newman?

  The one with Brad Pitt?

• 2:16:41Speaker 02

  Yeah! You gotta do that one!

• 2:16:43Griffin Newman?

  What's the one with Brad Pitt?

• 2:16:43Speaker 02

  You said everything. Isn't it with Brad Pitt?

• 2:16:46Griffin Newman?

  I don't think so. You think he departed?

• 2:16:47Speaker 02

  He's gone to India. No!

• 2:16:49Griffin Newman?

  Seven Years in Tibet. You're confusing Seven Years in Tibet with Kundun.

• 2:16:52David Sims?

  Kundun and Seven Years in Tibet. Two films that angered the Chinese government that were released by Hollywood.

• 2:16:58Griffin Newman?

  The same time.

• 2:16:59David Sims?

  Similar times, right?

• 2:17:00Griffin Newman?

  Right around, yeah. Ninety-seven, ninety-eight, yeah.

• 2:17:02David Sims?

  You know, I've never seen Seven Years in Tibet.

• 2:17:04Griffin Newman?

  I haven't either.

• 2:17:04David Sims?

  That was a classic where people were like, wow, the studio's really taking a risk with this, and Pitt's taking a risk, and China's like condemning the film. And it came out and everyone was like, beautiful mountains. You know, I mean, the mountains are fucking great in this thing. Uh, and how about the film? I mean, like, he climbed over all these mountains. Like, they had nothing to say about the movie.

• 2:17:22Griffin Newman?

  Should we watch it as?

• 2:17:23David Sims?

  Sure, I'll check it out.

• 2:17:24Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, sure.

• 2:17:24Speaker 02

  Wait, who's the lead in Seven Years in Tibet?

• 2:17:26Griffin Newman?

  Brad Pitt.

• 2:17:27Speaker 02

  Oh, it is Brad Pitt.

• 2:17:27David Sims?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just not a Scorsese movie.

• 2:17:29Griffin Newman?

  No, Scorsese did Kundun.

• 2:17:31Speaker 02

  Who's the lead of Kundun?

• 2:17:33David Sims?

  A, a, a young Chinese man. I mean, like, some playing the, uh-

• 2:17:37Speaker 02

  Well, you see why it's an easy thing.

• 2:17:39Griffin Newman?

  Of course.

• 2:17:42David Sims?

  It would be funny if Pitt was like, I will be playing the Dalai Lama. Any questions?

• 2:17:48Griffin Newman?

  Pretty bold, pretty bold.

• 2:17:49David Sims?

  Um, no, he's playing like, uh, you know, right, like, it was like, he was like a mountaineer who climbed Everest or-

• 2:17:57Griffin Newman?

  I think he was there for like six years, eight years. Something like that.

• 2:18:03Griffin Newman?

  Uh, thank you all for listening.

• 2:18:05Speaker 02

  Thank you for listening.

• 2:18:07Griffin Newman?

  Thank you for being here, Crummy.

• 2:18:08Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. Thank you for having me. It's a lovely, this is a great, there's a brain trust here.

• 2:18:15Griffin Newman?

  That's what we call ourselves. We call ourselves the Brain Trust. Uh, please remember to rate, review, and subscribe, and as always, David.

• 2:18:23David Sims?

  Yes?

• 2:18:24Griffin Newman?

  You fuck my wife? You fuck my wife? Look at me, look at me, look at me. Answer my question. You fuck my wife? You fuck my wife?

• 2:18:32Speaker 02

  What kind of a question is that? I'm mad you asked the question. Where do you get both, big guy?

• 2:18:42Speaker 04

  Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hostly. Our creative producer is Marie Bardi Salinas, and our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by J.J. Birch. Our theme song is by Lain Montgomery and the great American novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Holly Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to BlankCheckPod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon Blank Check special features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes.

• 2:19:27Speaker 04

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