Fargo with Zach Cregger

Did we get the director of Weapons, another “true story,” on our Fargo episode? You betcha. Zach Cregger joins the Blank Check crew to discuss the Coens’ 1996 masterpiece and we’re going SCENE BY SCENE dissecting this perfect movie. “Minnesota nice,” “Dark Marge,” the Mike Yanagita scene, the origins of Jerry’s overwhelming debt, the inner life of Gaear Grimsrud, and the operatic score are just a few of the topics discussed. Did you know that Ben Hosley’s first car was an Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera? YOOU BETCHA. Note: This episode was recorded before we saw Weapons, so no spoilers here. Sign up for Check Book https://blankcheckpod.substack.com/welcome, the Blank Check newsletter featuring even more “real nerdy shit” to feed your pop culture obsession. Dossier excerpts, film biz AND burger reports, and even more exclusive content you won’t want to miss out on. Join our Patreon for franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. http://www.patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter https://x.com/blankcheckpod?lang=en, Instagram https://www.instagram.com/blankcheckpod/?hl=en, Threads https://www.threads.net/@blankcheckpod?xmt=AQGzctAh4mbWTwYzCV1pzNT6AMV9o99EOfymi8TLR5mTde0 and Facebook https://www.facebook.com/blankcheckpodcast/! Buy some real nerdy merch https://kinshipgoods.com/blankcheck Connect with other Blankies on our Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/blankies/s/gpcOkQr8Sv or Discord https://discord.gg/Q6YGSR3JrA For anything else, check out BlankCheckPod.com https://www.blankcheckpod.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Griffin Newman?

  David. Yep. We did a live show. Yeah, remember? Ranking Scorsese at the Bell House in Brooklyn. We did the definitive power ranking of Martin Scorsese things. Uh, it was so fun. Uh, it was very silly. Ben and Marie were with us and they're with us right now. Yeah, hey.

• 0:18Speaker 01

  Hey, everyone, or should I say, oh? Oh.

• 0:22Griffin Newman?

  And thanks to our friends at Dynasty Typewriter. It was livestreamed for the first time ever. But also, the replay is still up there, but only until October 30th.

• 0:31Speaker 02

  So just a few more days.

• 0:33Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 0:33Speaker 02

  You can get it at dynasty.tv.

• 0:36Griffin Newman?

  Dynasty.tv.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  It's $20. We had a blast and the Spreadmaster really got to work.

• 0:43Griffin Newman?

  Oh, yeah. I was moving things around. Laptop was on.

• 0:46Speaker 01

  I don't know if I'd have seen you that happy.

• 0:48Griffin Newman?

  You were thrilled. You were like a pick and share. I was locked in. Yeah, very locked in and you were funny. Thank you. You were funny. You were also funny. Oh, thank you. And if you want to see like, you know, Griffin's shine box on camera, it's the only way to see it. You might see me shine Marie's shoes. Exactly.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you're into that sort of content.

• 1:07Griffin Newman?

  If that gets you off.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:10Speaker 02

  So once again, that's at dynasty.tv.

• 1:39Griffin Newman?

  So that was Mrs. Lundegaard and the floor in there. And I guess that was your accomplice in the wood chipper. And those three people in Brainerd. And for what? For a little bit of podcasting? There's more to life than a little podcast, you know? I feel like I went a little too Dennis Farina.

• 1:59David Sims?

  Uh, sure. Yeah. Well, yeah, you were about to order.

• 2:01Griffin Newman?

  I went full Chicago.

• 2:02David Sims?

  Order a deep dish.

• 2:03Griffin Newman?

  I was, I was gonna dip my beef sandwich.

• 2:06David Sims?

  Uh, yeah, um, too many lines I can think of. I am at the point with this movie, and our guest can speak up if he agrees. Please, just start talking.

• 2:16Griffin Newman?

  Kind of you to give him permission to talk.

• 2:18David Sims?

  Where there's lines where I'm like iconic line from Fargo that I think are just normal expository lines. But like, I've watched the movie so many times at this point that like, prowler needs a jump is one of my favorite lines from Fargo.

• 2:32Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:33David Sims?

  Does that make sense?

• 2:34Griffin Newman?

  Absolutely. I'm not gonna say we need to like fully.

• 2:36David Sims?

  Han? Yeah. Prowler needs a jump. I just like, that's funny to me. I mean, and it's supposed to be funny, but like, to me, that's like fucking, you know, Dalton Trumbo wrote that.

• 2:47Griffin Newman?

  So to this point, well, let's check to see if the keys on the typewriter are wet or not. Let's not accuse Dalton Trumbo. He's been accused of a lot of things in his time.

• 2:58Griffin Newman?

  I, I'm not looking to build the canon here. We've covered a lot of great movies on the show. Ten years, a decade of dreams.

• 3:05David Sims?

  Sure.

• 3:06Griffin Newman?

  I do think there is a pretty limited canon of like, perfect movies. In, in the history of cinema, but especially within the limited range of what we've covered in the last 10 years. And a lot of that is like, a lot of movies that I think are masterpieces.

• 3:20David Sims?

  Right.

• 3:20Griffin Newman?

  Have like wooliness or weirdness.

• 3:23David Sims?

  I hear ya.

• 3:24Griffin Newman?

  That I love, that works for me, you know? But this like part, there is, this is a, a rare movie where you're like, there's not a hair out of place. And to that end, even like, just sort of shoe leather dialogue is so specifically honed in on character and then so nailed in performance, that then the rhythm of it feels like, well, that's like an iconic thing. The fourth time she says yeah.

• 3:48David Sims?

  He's fleeing the interview.

• 3:49Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:50David Sims?

  He's fleeing the interview.

• 3:51Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:52Speaker 04

  It's true. Every line in this is a quotable line, kinda like Big Lebowski has that.

• 3:56Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 3:56Speaker 04

  Where like, you could pick any line, you throw a dart at the board and it's, and you kinda, you can hear it if you read it. You know, you, it's like tattooed in the mind and this, this movie does that. I, you know, I was watching it again last night and I was, I was thinking about how perfect this movie was. And I was looking, I was like, is there a hair on the head of this movie that I would change? And I have one.

• 4:15Griffin Newman?

  Ooh, okay.

• 4:16Speaker 04

  I have one moment.

• 4:17Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 4:17Speaker 04

  And I don't even think it's wrong. It's not broken, it's great, but it, it's a weird, there's a weird moment in this movie that I locked in on this time. And I've seen this movie a thousand times.

• 4:25Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 4:26Speaker 04

  Um, and it's more of just a question. And I wonder if you guys have the same issue. May I? Is this okay?

• 4:32David Sims?

  No, no, I love it. I'm just trying to think of you being like, I just don't like that lady who played the cop. She, I just thought she was kinda off.

• 4:38Griffin Newman?

  She talks too much.

• 4:40David Sims?

  What's with all their accents?

• 4:42Speaker 04

  No, but there's, there's a moment where we, we dissolve from, from, um, Steve Buscemi's pounding on the TV. He's like, fuck.

• 4:48David Sims?

  Yes. Yep.

• 4:49Speaker 04

  Right?

• 4:49David Sims?

  And then we go to the hard cut.

• 4:50Speaker 04

  We dissolve to the, to the screen. We have the bugs on the screen.

• 4:54David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 4:54Speaker 04

  And we pull out and we realize that Marge and her husband are watching TV at night. And, you know, she says, time to turn in. And he kinda wakes up and then we do a, a dissolve to black. And then we fade up and the phone rings and it's, it's Mike Yanagita.

• 5:08David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 5:08Speaker 04

  And I was just wondering, I was like, why, why do we go from a scene with them in bed to a scene with them in bed with this dissolve in the middle? And she answers. And I was like, I wonder if they were hedging their bets that maybe they would cut the Mike Yanagita out. Like maybe they were nervous that like this storyline may not work. It's a risk. So we're gonna, we got this sexy transition that we love, like, cause they could've easily cut straight to the Mike Yanagita phone call. They didn't have to do that cool TV transition.

• 5:32David Sims?

  This is what happens when you, you've been chipping for a hundred viewings, where you start to just be like.

• 5:38Griffin Newman?

  Is there?

• 5:38David Sims?

  Right. Like, you know, you, you've gone so deep. I know what you're saying.

• 5:42Griffin Newman?

  I mean, we're also gonna spend 40 minutes on Mike Yanagita.

• 5:45David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 5:45Griffin Newman?

  Yes, we are. One hour.

• 5:47David Sims?

  We have to go deep into Mike Anegida.

• 5:49Griffin Newman?

  We have to go deep.

• 5:50David Sims?

  I just saw him, Steve Park, right? The actor's name.

• 5:52Griffin Newman?

  Great.

• 5:53David Sims?

  In The Phoenician Scheme, literally two hours ago.

• 5:56Griffin Newman?

  It feels like he's having a bit of a renaissance again.

• 5:58David Sims?

  Because Wes likes him.

• 5:59Griffin Newman?

  So reclaimed by Wes. And we'll talk about it for an hour. I'm gonna pin that to the board.

• 6:04David Sims?

  Sure.

• 6:04Griffin Newman?

  But that scene in and of itself is a thing that I feel like for a long time, people were like, why is this fucking in here? What does this have to do with it?

• 6:12David Sims?

  The Anegida scene?

• 6:13Griffin Newman?

  Turning point of Marge's character. Yes.

• 6:15David Sims?

  It's obviously a vital scene.

• 6:17Griffin Newman?

  It is the scene in the movie. But I was, I watched it last night and then almost immediately after finishing it, I was like, am I gonna fucking put this back on and watch this again? Because I had the impulse to watch it, or at least scrub through and study, when do they do the fade to black? They do. Are you joking? You had that same thought about that exact same fade to black and why? Not that one, but I got kinda stuck on, not like it was bumping on. They do.

• 6:45David Sims?

  There's one right at the start of the movie.

• 6:46Griffin Newman?

  Right. I was like, okay, there are like five or six of them.

• 6:49David Sims?

  Right.

• 6:49Griffin Newman?

  And is there any pattern I can discern as to when they fade to black as opposed to like cross dissolve or just hard cut? And then I was like, this is the kind of shit that they mock. When people try to write essays about like, why they made the editing choices. But they still care about it. They do. So precise and intentional. Absolutely. It's worth exploring this and wringing your hands about this sorts of things because they're that meticulous. This is the fascinating thing about them is I'm sure if you asked them, they would say, it just felt right.

• 7:21David Sims?

  Sure.

• 7:21Griffin Newman?

  We just got in the room and it just felt like a rhythm and energy thing.

• 7:24David Sims?

  How they talk about things.

• 7:25Griffin Newman?

  And yet, everything in their movies is so perfectly placed and so precise and so controlled, as you said, and feels so meaningful that you're like, there has to be something for me to solve here.

• 7:36David Sims?

  Right.

• 7:37Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 7:37David Sims?

  Right.

• 7:38Griffin Newman?

  And I guess, right, you get to, well, Eventually Gets a Serious Man, where the movie is almost built around, right? Them.

• 7:45David Sims?

  Mike Anegida telling you to accept the mystery.

• 7:47Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 7:47David Sims?

  Same actor.

• 7:48Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 7:50David Sims?

  Fargo is the film, but what's the podcast?

• 7:53Griffin Newman?

  This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin.

• 7:55David Sims?

  David.

• 7:56Griffin Newman?

  Who's David? You're just saying a word.

• 7:58David Sims?

  YOOU betcha I'm David. I don't know.

• 8:00Griffin Newman?

  It's a podcast about filmography. It's directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby.

• 8:10David Sims?

  So when the sex worker is riding, the second, the escort, the second one, is riding Carl.

• 8:18Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 8:18David Sims?

  The Shemmy.

• 8:18Griffin Newman?

  Trying to get him to ring the bell.

• 8:20David Sims?

  I hear bells. I'm like, did the Coens write that? It is such an odd line. I love it, to be clear. Or did she go like, you know, like, were they like, what would you, you know?

• 8:30Griffin Newman?

  I feel like it has to be written.

• 8:31David Sims?

  I think they write everything that's said.

• 8:33Griffin Newman?

  It's gotta be.

• 8:33David Sims?

  Yeah, I don't think there's a lot of improvisation.

• 8:35Speaker 04

  There's that story that, that, here's, oh my god.

• 8:40Griffin Newman?

  Storm Man.

• 8:41Speaker 04

  Storm Man.

• 8:41Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 8:41David Sims?

  Right.

• 8:42Speaker 04

  Jesus Christ, that would have been bad. He tells that story about he's shooting that scene and he, and he thought there was a typo in the script for the, where is Pancake?

• 8:49David Sims?

  Where is Pancake?

• 8:50Speaker 04

  Changed it on take one. He goes, where's the Pancake House? And like Joel came up and was like, hey, it says, where's Pancake's house? Yeah, like that's, they are that specific.

• 9:00Griffin Newman?

  And to that point.

• 9:01David Sims?

  I hear bells. Imagine having sex with someone and they go, I hear bells. Sorry, go on.

• 9:06Speaker 04

  Or, or worse than that is, where are you?

• 9:09Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, where are you?

• 9:10Speaker 04

  So emasculating. Where are you? Jesus.

• 9:14Griffin Newman?

  William Macey has said that like.

• 9:16David Sims?

  Girl, Shep.

• 9:17Griffin Newman?

  Every single stammer is written in that way. Like, there's no sort of like riffing on the, the run-up.

• 9:24David Sims?

  There was something he improv that they let in and I cannot remember what it is. I'll find it.

• 9:30Griffin Newman?

  But yes, I hear bells. It feels like that has to be something they heard happen to someone they knew that they never forgot and joked about internally and were gonna like, we're gonna put that in a movie someday.

• 9:42David Sims?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 9:43Speaker 04

  They don't seem like the guys who like hang out with their buddies and talk about like sex stories.

• 9:48Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 9:49David Sims?

  No.

• 9:50Griffin Newman?

  No, you know what it feels like? It feels like they overheard a stranger say that at a bar.

• 9:55David Sims?

  One of the few instances.

• 9:56Griffin Newman?

  Talking to his buddies.

• 9:58David Sims?

  Is that they, he kept calling the Sienna burnt umber, which was not in the script, but the Coens were amused and let that in. Cause Macey's, he's like a theater rascal. He likes to, you know, ad lib.

• 10:09Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 10:10David Sims?

  He also did the doodles. He was just doodling.

• 10:12Griffin Newman?

  I know that.

• 10:13David Sims?

  And they were like, oh, that's funny.

• 10:15Griffin Newman?

  Right, that was him in between setups, just making those sort of like weird geometric patterns.

• 10:20Speaker 04

  That's awesome.

• 10:21Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, uh, listen.

• 10:24Griffin Newman?

  Masters of Success, early on in the career series of playing checks, crazy passion projects. This is their first clear. This is their first unqualified. Right? Like, this movie was a hit. This is their first movie that didn't lose money. They are a rare case of a snapshot.

• 10:40David Sims?

  Raising Arizona lost money? I don't think so.

• 10:43Griffin Newman?

  Let's look it up.

• 10:44David Sims?

  No.

• 10:45Speaker 04

  Well, and Simple couldn't have lost money, right?

• 10:47David Sims?

  Raising Arizona cost $5 million and made like 30 worldwide. Like, I think that movie is their first clear.

• 10:53Griffin Newman?

  Fair enough.

• 10:53David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 10:54Griffin Newman?

  But like, right, Barton Fink, Miller's Crossing, Hudsucker, all made less than they cost.

• 11:02Griffin Newman?

  But two of those three were like critically adored.

• 11:04David Sims?

  Yes.

• 11:04Griffin Newman?

  And it was like, these guys have the goods. We have to keep letting them do their thing. And this obviously breaks their on a whole other level. Uh, of course, this is, uh, their 1996 film Fargo, which is based on the popular FX series. They made an interesting choice at this point in their career to adapt a TV show to film.

• 11:23David Sims?

  Uh, yes, of course. Uh, they, um, they love the TV show, I'm told.

• 11:28Griffin Newman?

  They love it.

• 11:28David Sims?

  I don't know. I'm sure they have never seen.

• 11:31Griffin Newman?

  I am also sure.

• 11:33David Sims?

  Yeah. And I'm not even saying that in a derogatory way. I'm just sure they're kind of like, oh, okay.

• 11:37Griffin Newman?

  Right. When the show was announced, there was this sort of like, and the Coens gave it their blessing. And then later it came out that they were like, yeah, we don't care. If you want to do a show, that's fine.

• 11:46David Sims?

  Uh, right.

• 11:47Griffin Newman?

  Not that they were dismissive, but they were just like, we made the movie. You do whatever you want.

• 11:53Griffin Newman?

  Cause there's also the weird fucking sitcom pilot.

• 11:57David Sims?

  Uh, was that a sitcom?

• 11:58Griffin Newman?

  Fargo?

• 11:58David Sims?

  Edie Fargo?

• 11:59Griffin Newman?

  I guess it was.

• 12:00David Sims?

  No, it was like a crime show.

• 12:01Griffin Newman?

  A comedy procedural. There was like an NBC pilot directed by Kathy Bates with Edie Fargo playing Marge Gunderson.

• 12:08David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 12:09Speaker 04

  Really?

• 12:09Griffin Newman?

  In the nineties, like a year or two after Fargo.

• 12:11David Sims?

  No, no, no. Well, oh yeah, it was in the nineties, right? It actually aired in the 2000s as part of like a brilliant, but canceled.

• 12:18Griffin Newman?

  The Bravo.

• 12:18David Sims?

  Right, yeah.

• 12:19Speaker 04

  And wait, Kathy Bates was in this?

• 12:20Griffin Newman?

  Kathy Bates directed it.

• 12:23David Sims?

  She directed it.

• 12:24Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 12:24David Sims?

  Thank you, Zach. Thank you for bringing that up.

• 12:26Griffin Newman?

  Thank you.

• 12:26David Sims?

  And we should introduce her again.

• 12:27Griffin Newman?

  This is additional ammunition to the idea that there's some quiet feud between Kathy Bates and the Coens.

• 12:32David Sims?

  She didn't do the dishes.

• 12:33Griffin Newman?

  She directed the pilot that they had no involvement in.

• 12:37David Sims?

  Oh my god.

• 12:38Griffin Newman?

  It almost feels vindictive that she's like, I'll make my Fargo. You guys don't have the rights.

• 12:44David Sims?

  Um, yeah, that's, that's, that's, I've never seen it, the, um, the Edie Fargo thing. Have you ever seen it?

• 12:50Griffin Newman?

  I've not seen it either.

• 12:51David Sims?

  She's pregnant in it, I know, which is sort of funny.

• 12:53Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, like, what was the long-term plan there?

• 12:56David Sims?

  Yeah, right.

• 12:56Griffin Newman?

  Was she gonna be pregnant for five seasons?

• 12:57David Sims?

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 12:58Griffin Newman?

  Um, we're talking Fargo. Our guest today is the great filmmaker, the director of Barbarian.

• 13:06David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 13:07Griffin Newman?

  The upcoming Weapons, which will be coming out right around the time this episode.

• 13:10David Sims?

  Well, so this episode drops, uh, Zach on, uh, let's see, August 17th. So is Weapons just come out? It will be out for a week and change. Wow, wow. You know what? We did a pretty good job, Mike. Weapons!

• 13:21Griffin Newman?

  Zach Cregger.

• 13:24Speaker 04

  Uh, thank you for, thank you for having me.

• 13:26David Sims?

  Sorry for yelling weapons.

• 13:27Speaker 04

  I love the show, so I'm, I'm really excited.

• 13:30Griffin Newman?

  It's very kind of you to say.

• 13:31David Sims?

  That's really sick and disgusting. I mean, that's the kind of depraved shit that the director of Weapons would say. I love Blank Check.

• 13:37Griffin Newman?

  Uh, we, we met, uh, last summer. And you said that to me, and I said, "That's stupid." And your response was, "Why do you think that's stupid?" I appreciated you, like, being like, "You have a show that people like. I don't understand why you're immediately turning this into an insult to me and a self-put-down." You, like, cut through it very quickly. Uh, but it, it has been a dream to have you on since then. Uh, we have a mutual friend, Leslie Headland.

• 14:10David Sims?

  Yes, we do.

• 14:11Griffin Newman?

  I said, "We're doing the Coens." I feel like this might be a moment to ask Zach, uh, texted you, and you and Leslie both locked into the same two movies.

• 14:19David Sims?

  Right, started fighting over them, essentially.

• 14:21Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 14:21Speaker 04

  I, I wanted Fargo because this is, this is quite, quite arguably my favorite movie of all time. And, um, I think she might feel similarly. And, and you guys had offered me No Country, which, which is also, what an amazing, uh, I mean, it's an honor. I, I, you know, whatever. But, uh... I don't know. I just, I love, I, I wanted Fargo really bad. I didn't know if, if she cared as much as I cared. And so we, we had kind of a, a little round and round about, uh, who got what. But, uh, she was very cool to give me, to give me this.

• 14:52Griffin Newman?

  Look, it's also, it's a win-win. It's like two masterpieces.

• 14:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:56Griffin Newman?

  I could see both of you being good on both episodes.

• 15:00Speaker 04

  It's funny that Leslie was like, I feel like you should just take the classier movie. And I was like, which one is classier than the other? They're both very classy.

• 15:07David Sims?

  I think No Country is classier in that it, well, in one best picture, it's an adaptation of a sort of a novel from a great American novelist. So it's like maybe mildly quote unquote, classier. This movie has a lot of Minnesota accents in it and stuff. Like it's like a little goofier. You had just worked with Josh Brolin, of course, in Weapons. So you were sort of like, well, that would be interesting to talk about, but he's not in Fargo.

• 15:31Speaker 04

  Is that right? He's not?

• 15:32David Sims?

  I don't think so. I mean, maybe he played the big statue of Paul Bunyan. I don't know.

• 15:36Griffin Newman?

  There's a bit of resemblance.

• 15:37David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 15:37Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 15:38David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 15:40David Sims?

  But, uh, but you have worked with Mr. Brolin, who of course is a, a Coens fave.

• 15:44Griffin Newman?

  But is this kind of your like default gun to your head favorite movie?

• 15:48Speaker 04

  It would be like a coin toss between this and Boogie Nights.

• 15:51Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 15:52Speaker 04

  A year apart. So it just goes to show, you know, 16, 17, when these movies came out, it's like my formative, you know, film buff years or whatever I'm trying to say. So yeah, these were, these both hit me in the sweet spot and, uh, made a, made a mark.

• 16:07Griffin Newman?

  Uh, Barbarian, it's a phenomenal movie. It kind of blew me away when I saw it in theaters. And it felt like had this mini phenomenon of people being like, where the fuck did this come from? Like, it felt like the movie just came out of nowhere.

• 16:19Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 16:20Griffin Newman?

  And I, I really enjoyed the party trick of telling people, uh, when they were like, have you seen Barbarian? That thing rules. Responding with like, you know, that was directed by one of the whitest kids you know, which people could not believe, but you have this arc of like, right. But, but no, but like in a cool way. And I also think there's this weird cultural thing of like a sketch comedy to a horror movie pipeline that seems to be growing.

• 16:48Griffin Newman?

  But you also go to F-

• 16:49Speaker 04

  There's two examples. Is there more?

• 16:51David Sims?

  I guess.

• 16:52Speaker 04

  You got two examples there, buddy.

• 16:55Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, I'd say.

• 16:56Speaker 04

  Joe Gallo made a horror movie.

• 16:58Griffin Newman?

  Okay, so now, now we're looking at four.

• 17:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, why not? Actually, yeah, Showalter should try a horror movie. I'm trying to think about like, who are big sketch legends now?

• 17:05Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 17:05Speaker 04

  We could, that we could, who have transitioned to filming.

• 17:08Griffin Newman?

  Chevy Chase should direct a horror movie.

• 17:09Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. Great sketch comic, Chevy Chase. I know he was, I know he was once a great sketch comic.

• 17:15Griffin Newman?

  But you, you all, that group formed from all of you guys going to film school together, right?

• 17:21Speaker 04

  Well, we were in the same dorm together.

• 17:22Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 17:23Speaker 04

  So, we went to different schools, but we all were in the same spillover dorm in Brooklyn that like, if you were late on your housing application, you lived in the St. George Hotel. So it just kind of attracted.

• 17:32David Sims?

  You lived at the St. George Hotel?

• 17:34Speaker 04

  I lived in the St. George.

• 17:35David Sims?

  Above Clark Street Station?

• 17:37Speaker 04

  You got it.

• 17:37Griffin Newman?

  I'm incredibly familiar.

• 17:38David Sims?

  That is so funny. What, how do I know? I'm a dork.

• 17:41Griffin Newman?

  I went to high school right by there.

• 17:43David Sims?

  What's, what's it like at the St. George Hotel? I always wonder every time.

• 17:46Speaker 04

  It was different then. They've completely redone it now, but it was so bizarre because it was just like Animal House every night, but it used to be housing and there were tenants that just never were evicted. So we'd be like drinking forties and smoking blunts in the hallway.

• 18:00David Sims?

  Oh, yeah.

• 18:00Speaker 04

  And then a 90 year old would get off the elevator and walk sadly through the pot smoke into his room. I mean, can you imagine?

• 18:06David Sims?

  The York!

• 18:07Speaker 04

  And they're like, we're turning this into a dormitory. It's just like, I can't imagine.

• 18:11David Sims?

  And the guy's like, I don't give a shit. I pay 60 bucks a month. I'm never leaving. I live in Brooklyn Heights.

• 18:17Griffin Newman?

  I went to, I went to high school right by there and I was always like fascinated by the exterior and how much it kind of looked like a Barton Fink Hotel. Like it looked frozen in time. And I remember with my friend walking by and going like, I, I need to know, is this like an expensive hotel?

• 18:33Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, Marilyn Monroe stayed there.

• 18:35David Sims?

  Right, it was once expensive.

• 18:37Speaker 04

  They shot The Godfather in the basement and then they shot Big in there. That scene where he's like in the hood and there's like gunshots and sirens and he's afraid, you know?

• 18:44Griffin Newman?

  That's wild.

• 18:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's in the St. George.

• 18:47Griffin Newman?

  Right. I was like, this clearly looks like it used to be really fancy, but also looks so frozen and amber. I wonder how much it costs. So I walked in and was like, how much is a room as like a 14 year old? And whoever's at the desk was like, this is for college students.

• 18:59David Sims?

  Right, go away.

• 19:01Griffin Newman?

  And then I was so fascinated by like, this has the outward appearance of a hotel, but also like rent controlled senior citizens live there?

• 19:09Speaker 04

  Yeah. It has a crazy history, that place. It was, I, I heard it was in a quarantine zone for AIDS patients. And so a lot of people died in there, like in the, in the 80s and. I know there were like, it was a junkie, like a flop house shooting gallery at one point. And you used to walk by and there would be all these like bags on strings hanging out every window, which is where people would hide their heroin. Like it would, it's had a crazy and, you know, in the glory days, it burned down and it was built. It's, this cannot be interesting to any of your listeners.

• 19:39Griffin Newman?

  No, no, this is good. This is really good podcasting.

• 19:41David Sims?

  Kind of cool lore, but you did not see Fargo in college. You saw it prior. You saw it in high school.

• 19:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, I saw it in, in high school.

• 19:48David Sims?

  Did you see it in theaters? You're older than I am.

• 19:50Speaker 04

  I did not see it in theaters. I don't believe I did. I don't think I did. I think I saw it on video, unfortunately.

• 19:56David Sims?

  Yeah. Well, I mean, like I would have been, I was, I think 12 when Fargo came out. You're, I think you're a couple of years older than me. Like I was a little too young to be toddling over to Fargo in the theaters.

• 20:05Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 20:05David Sims?

  This was a major.

• 20:06Speaker 04

  I was 16 when it came out.

• 20:08David Sims?

  Yeah. You could have, you could have snuck in, I guess.

• 20:10Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 20:12David Sims?

  This was an early like DVD for me. Like I bought this on DVD and rewatched it over and over and over again.

• 20:17Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. I feel like I had gotten so coins pilled by the early 2000s that I remember watching this, seeing that it was going to play on cable and being like, oh, this is my big blind spot. Already knowing in a pre No Country era that like this was kind of considered their masterpiece.

• 20:37David Sims?

  Yes. I also, you know, the, the Halliwell's Film Guide, which I think I brought up before, which is a gigantic textbook that doesn't exist anymore, but it used to get published every year of every movie. And with ratings from zero to four stars. Most movies get zero.

• 20:55Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 20:56David Sims?

  By a grumpy old fuck called Leslie Halliway, Halliwell.

• 21:01David Sims?

  He gave Fargo four stars.

• 21:03Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 21:03David Sims?

  And like that, he gave like one four stars a year or whatever. So I, I knew that Fargo was a big deal, even when I was this little budding student.

• 21:10Griffin Newman?

  It was an infamous Siskel and Ebert movie too, that it was like a thing they both agreed on. And were not only in agreement, but were like advocating so hard and were rapturous about it. There's the story, I think maybe JJ put in the dossier of the two of them seeing the screening together and Ebert turned to Siskel and going like, this is why we do what we do.

• 21:29David Sims?

  Oh, yeah.

• 21:31Griffin Newman?

  And Ebert, like in his initial review, I think called it where he was like, this is one of the few perfect movies I've ever seen. And he like elevated it to his great movies list really early, but he just immediately was just like, this, I, I have rarely seen a film that so successfully achieves its ambitions.

• 21:48Speaker 04

  I think it's really odd, though, that he didn't pick on that, that Fade to Black off of the TV. Yeah, I mean, well, it was kind of a hack.

• 21:54David Sims?

  Yeah, keep your head on a swivel, though. I mean, Jesus. Uh, films like Fargo are why I love the movies is how his review ends.

• 22:02Griffin Newman?

  The, the thing I was gonna say that's kind of funny is the first time I watched it, when I'm like 14 or 15, I remember not being underwhelmed by it, but going like, yeah, that's like another Coen Brothers movie.

• 22:12David Sims?

  Wow, that's fucked up.

• 22:14Griffin Newman?

  It's so fucked up. And then I basically, I basically have watched it once every two years since then, and every time I see it, it gets better. It is one of those rare movies for me that because I haven't yet clocked the weirdness of that one Fade to Black, every time I'm like, I, I get it more and more. Um, and there's something just, I think what threw me off when I was seeing it the first time and had been so hyped up in my mind is, it is kind of very simple. It is such a like focused movie in a way, and I'm always surprised by how short it is.

• 22:49David Sims?

  Yeah, yeah, of course. I mean, all their movies are short. I mean, by and large. Uh, it is, it's an economical film. It gets through a ton of plot. It's a plotty movie.

• 22:58Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 22:59David Sims?

  In 98 minutes, like it's a.

• 23:01Griffin Newman?

  And Marge is not introduced until minute 30 and solves the case by an hour and 20 minutes.

• 23:08Speaker 04

  And yet it never feels rushed. It feels like kind of moved at a lazy pace. And I mean that in the best way, you know, like they're, they're hanging out in bed talking about stamps, you know, and you, you never, you never feel it. It's, it's, oh, it's amazing.

• 23:22Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 23:23David Sims?

  Um, so Fargo is good. Yeah. And Zach's here to talk about it. It is, this is one of those movies. I'm, I'm serious. It's like one of those movies where I'm like, yeah, I don't know. We're not gonna be like, my thing about Fargo is it's actually bad. Like, no, Fargo is.

• 23:34Speaker 04

  But there is so much to debate about it, though. Like Dark Marge. Are we gonna get into the Dark Marge?

• 23:39David Sims?

  Zach, I don't know what you're talking about, but I want to know what you're talking about.

• 23:43Speaker 04

  I don't really know it either. Okay. So do you guys, are you familiar? There's a, there's a podcast called, uh, No Podcast for Old Men. Do you know about this?

• 23:50David Sims?

  No, but it sounds like the kind of thing that exists in the world.

• 23:53Speaker 04

  I'm surprised you don't, it's three philosophy professors.

• 23:56David Sims?

  Oh, you know what, I have heard of this.

• 23:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, they go through the Coen Brothers filmography. And each episode is two hours long and they only talk about them from a philosophical standpoint. And the greater themes of every movie, it's pretty fascinating and they, they, they talk, they have a two-episode thing just for Fargo. And they get into, into why they considered Marge to be a dark character. And I think even Ethan acknowledged in an interview that he thinks of Marge as a dark character, which is really interesting because she's.

• 24:25David Sims?

  She's somewhat angelic in her sort of presentation.

• 24:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:29David Sims?

  And her behavior. So why is she dark? I must know more. I'm gonna find out if there's more on this. But, uh.

• 24:36Griffin Newman?

  That she is like containing, that she is controlling a darkness within her?

• 24:44Speaker 04

  Well, I don't know. I mean, I think that there's, there's a couple of, there's a couple of approaches you could take to the dark Marge theory. One is that she is, um, you know, if you, if you look at this movie through the lens of deception, right? And that applies on a lot of different layers, you know, the opening text, which I'm sure we're gonna get into is a lie, you know?

• 25:02Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 25:02Speaker 04

  And, and every character is kind of a liar and Marge is not immune to that, you know, her. Now, I, I don't, this is not my point of view, okay? But this is, this is just me putting the dark Marge theory out there is that the Mike Yanagita thing, she is just as complicit in the deceit as, as Mike.

• 25:18David Sims?

  Like that she kinda knows it's maybe a little out of pocket to get lunch with Mike Yanagita. Like you think, like that she's no wide-eyed innocent. She's like, oh, she probably knows like, oh, Mike had a bit of a crush on me or whatever.

• 25:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:30David Sims?

  Yeah, sure.

• 25:30Speaker 04

  She definitely, and you could even, you know, Mike tells her on the phone, he's in the Twin Cities.

• 25:35Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 25:35Speaker 04

  And then when that other cop comes, and I noticed it on this watch, that other cop says, um, you know, they, they made a call to a Shep Proudfoot in the Twin Cities. And she's like, well, maybe I'll take a drive down there. And everybody is kinda surprised.

• 25:47Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 25:47Speaker 04

  You're gonna drive all the way to the Twin Cities on the thinnest, on a phone call?

• 25:52David Sims?

  Right.

• 25:52Speaker 04

  And she's like, yeah. And it's like, we, we can infer that she's going because she wants to see Mike Yanagita.

• 25:56David Sims?

  We can infer that. I'm not sure I do infer that to be clear.

• 25:59Speaker 04

  We could, we could. And then she's also, you know, she's, she's wearing a lot of makeup.

• 26:03Griffin Newman?

  I was gonna say.

• 26:03Speaker 04

  She wants to go to a dice restaurant.

• 26:05David Sims?

  She looks nice.

• 26:05Speaker 04

  You wear makeup because you wanna look nicer.

• 26:07David Sims?

  She does want it to be reasonable though. She wants the Marriott to be, hey, is it reasonable?

• 26:11Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 26:13Griffin Newman?

  But it does feel like, right, there's something self-serving going on there, even if it's only, I want the confidence boost.

• 26:19David Sims?

  The whole thing with Fargo is the Mike Yanagita scene.

• 26:22Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 26:23David Sims?

  Because like, the thing with Fargo is that it's perfect, and the first time you watch it, you're blown away by, you know, how dark it is and how funny it is the entire time, even though like horrible things are happening and all that, you know, and then just how visually striking it is. And so then you keep rewatching it, and then you keep, as you keep rewatching it, being like, "Mike Yanagita's scenes weird."

• 26:43Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 26:43David Sims?

  And then you realize, like, well, no, I see its plot purpose. It helps her realize, like, that she was lied to. It helps her, you know, sort of like, in like shades, like, you know, the deception. And then you keep watching, and then you're like, "Okay, but like, she's a cop, wouldn't she know?" You know, then you start like asking, you know, it becomes, it is so interesting.

• 27:01Griffin Newman?

  It's overly simple to read that scene as the Mike Yanagita exchange makes her realize for the first time that people could be lying.

• 27:11David Sims?

  Right.

• 27:11Griffin Newman?

  Where you're like, "No, she's a fucking cop, of course she knows that."

• 27:14David Sims?

  Yeah, I know, of course she knows that, because she is such a good cop. She is unfazed by these three dead bodies she finds.

• 27:20Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 27:21David Sims?

  She has no problem getting on her hands and knees and examining the wounds from a completely professional, clinical mindset. She's clearly done this a bunch of times.

• 27:30Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 27:31David Sims?

  And, and so, it's odd that they would put so much shoe leather in to be like, "This is the moment she realizes that people can be bad."

• 27:38Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 27:38David Sims?

  People can lie. And it's like, what a wild thing to put into a hardened, seasoned gumshoe. You know, it's crazy, but it works.

• 27:46Griffin Newman?

  So here, I was, I was going down some rabbit holes in theories. I didn't find the Dark Marge theory. Also, I feel embarrassed that there's a podcast called No Podcast for Old Men, and our mini-series is No Pod Country for Old Cas?

• 27:58David Sims?

  Yeah, who knows?

• 27:58Griffin Newman?

  Whatever, who gives a shit?

• 28:00David Sims?

  Awesome.

• 28:00Griffin Newman?

  Fuck me, thank you.

• 28:02David Sims?

  Sorry, I did the ice thing.

• 28:03Griffin Newman?

  You're doing the ice thing. Ben, it might be time to take away the cup.

• 28:06David Sims?

  No, I love my ice.

• 28:08Griffin Newman?

  David loves chewing ice. No, if you're gonna do it, I have to say it.

• 28:14David Sims?

  Sorry, I'm trying not to bite my nails. No, no, what was the theory?

• 28:16Griffin Newman?

  It almost feels like a thing a character would do in a Coen Brothers movie during a dramatic scene is keep chewing ice and have Skip Lee say, just crank the audio up.

• 28:24David Sims?

  Oh yeah, Skip Lee say, hit that ice hard.

• 28:26Griffin Newman?

  The king. I was going down different Marge and Mike Yanagita readings. And one reading I saw that was interesting was they were saying it's basically the inversion of the scene you have in most noirs where a male hard boiled detective who is hyper cynical on the outside meets with a random woman, gets engaged in like a romantic liaison with her, and in the process uncovers something about the crime that shows how good he is at sussing out information, right? And this is like a complete flip of that where it's like a non-sexual encounter, right? This encounter of like weird, deep awkwardness

• 29:10Griffin Newman?

  and emotion in history where nothing physical happens. That's all about longing and like unrequited love, but also perhaps this like desire to be seen as desirable. And that it gives her this lesson that is not directly related to the crime she's trying to solve is more just a philosophical reawakening of like, right, I should take a second look at this and not trust what people are saying, which like it is that simple, but also that's not giving the character enough credit. And then the thing I read, which I think I'd never heard before, is that scene was not originally in the script, obviously because Frances McDormand is married to Joel Coen and is more involved in the development of

• 29:52Griffin Newman?

  these movies and is probably hearing about them as they're going along.

• 29:56David Sims?

  Right.

• 29:56Griffin Newman?

  And knew that they were designing this character for her, said at some point, I don't know if it was reading a finished script for the first time, or if she was reading scenes as it went along, said, can you please give me a scene that can help me define my character that isn't me on the case or with my husband?

• 30:13David Sims?

  Right.

• 30:13Griffin Newman?

  She said, there are only two modes I have in this movie.

• 30:16David Sims?

  Right.

• 30:16Griffin Newman?

  It is either me in cop mode or me in wife mode, and I need you to give me one scene of additional context to show me relating to someone else to help me solve what this character is. And that was the scene they wrote. And then she said, like, when I read it, I was perplexed. I like, didn't get it. I didn't get why this is what they wrote, and I couldn't make sense of the behavior in the scene. And her biggest thing was, and not that it was written differently, but like, I want to avoid the temptation of letting this character be too saintly by being too considerate of his emotions in this scene. That the firmness she shows in kind of putting down the lines of going like, I'd feel more comfortable if you were sitting on the other side. But

• 30:59Griffin Newman?

  even just the energy as she's receiving everything he's saying, she was like, I can't just be like mom of earth.

• 31:07David Sims?

  Which makes, I get that.

• 31:08Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 31:09David Sims?

  Yeah. I don't know. That's interesting. It does. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Zach, what do you think? Do you think Marge is dark, dark Marge? Is she gonna join the Dark Avengers?

• 31:19Speaker 04

  I don't think she's dark. I think I, I, I can't really embrace the dark Marge theory. And I don't know if I've articulated it correctly at all. Like, I think there might be a more,

• 31:29David Sims?

  fans.

• 31:29Speaker 04

  A more kind of complex thing behind dark Marge that I'm completely missing here. But, um, but what I love about the Mike Aguita scene, it's kind of what you just hinted on, is that she is riding this really delicate line of like, am I in cop mode? Am I in person mode?

• 31:44David Sims?

  Right.

• 31:45Speaker 04

  You know, he is making this inappropriate advance and I'm gonna keep my Minnesota nice kind of demeanor here, but I'm also gonna be firm and keep my, it was, there's just so many things happening with her in that scene. And it's so funny. It's just, that scene is a masterpiece because there's so many, there's so many layers happening. It works on so many levels and it's so fucking funny. Mike, Mike Aguita is, it's an incredible performance.

• 32:08David Sims?

  It's so funny. I, the, everything I've read about, there's a big interview with Steve Park that you can read, there was an Entertainment Weekly or something where he was like, I was convinced the scene would get cut because it has nothing to do ostensibly with the movie. And then Ethan Coen called him and was like, your scene like crushes, you know, everyone laughs. And Steve Park was like, well, I was playing him as like this incredibly tragic person. Yeah. But like, it is a very funny, like cringey, uncomfortable, like I do think it's. In this dark, very funny, but nonetheless dark movie, it is an interesting little breathing point.

• 32:43Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 32:43David Sims?

  And that's probably another reason they were like, yeah, it it functions. Like, don't take it out. Like, keep the Yanagita scene.

• 32:49Griffin Newman?

  I don't know if this is their best movie. It is certainly in that top tier for me. They have made a handful of five star masterpieces in my mind, but this does feel like the ultimate

• 33:00David Sims?

  Two handfuls.

• 33:01Griffin Newman?

  Cohen's film, in the same way we were saying in our Blue Velvet episode, like, that's not my favorite Lynch movie, but it is the movie that is the best encapsulation at the right point in the bell curve of the development of power where you're just like, this is every single thing they do well, every theme they find interesting, the holding of like, all the tones at the same time. There's some interview

• 33:22David Sims?

  I totally agree.

• 33:23Griffin Newman?

  obsessed with where Ethan Cohen, you know, whenever people ask them, like, what's your directing style? Or how do you work with actors? And there's some interview I gotta find where Ethan Cohen says, like, I've never consciously directed an actor in my life. We like, don't talk subtext with them. We write the script. If we give them notes, they're technical about just like, what we need to do to get the take to work or whatever. And he said, over time and being asked that question so many times, the best answer I've ever come to is that directing is about tone management. And I think about that so much, and this movie is like, the greatest study in that, where you're like, every scene is holding like, three tones that should not be able to coexist. And they've made great films where the power is that they're able to successfully

• 34:08Griffin Newman?

  navigate the transitions in tone from scene to scene. But the like, combination of putting the Minnesota nice with the sort of like, deep darkness of man noir, means that they're doing that tonal balance of like, just what we're talking, the Mike Yanagita scene, where you're just like, how can it be like, these things simultaneously? How can it be like, this funny and upsetting and confusing and clarifying?

• 34:31David Sims?

  I mean, not to toot Zach's horn, but you made a scary movie that was funny.

• 34:35Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 34:36David Sims?

  But not funny in like, a whatever, you know, like, not a parody scary. Like, you made a movie where I was laughing the entire time. I don't know if you're going for me laughing almost the entire time with Barbarian, but like it is a movie with a lot of humor in it without sacrificing any of the darkness.

• 34:54Griffin Newman?

  And I think the humor similarly stems from really drilling into like the bizarreness of human behavior.

• 35:01David Sims?

  Yeah. So how'd you do that, big jerk?

• 35:04Speaker 04

  The, one of the things that it kind of crystallizes what the Combs are doing in Fargo, thank you for that, I'll say thank you, thank you, is you know, the Paul Bunyan shot where it's like underlit and Paul Bunyan, the big statue looks like demonic, you know? And it's that, that one shot is kind of like the perfect, the perfect encapsulation of everything they're doing in this movie where it's like this, it first of all, it's crystallizing the location, you know, all of their movies are so location dependent, it's kind of amazing. And this, this one is, is almost the most. And then it's this, it's this big, kind of joyful thing and they light it and shoot it like the scariest fucking thing you've ever

• 35:41Griffin Newman?

  seen. With the fucking Carter Burwell score, which is like, right.

• 35:45Speaker 04

  The Carter Burwell score is maybe his best score.

• 35:47David Sims?

  God, it's just so insane.

• 35:49Speaker 04

  It's so amazing.

• 35:50Griffin Newman?

  But like even when Carter Burwell does comedies or has like branched out.

• 35:53David Sims?

  Fucking bagpipes on that thing.

• 35:55Griffin Newman?

  I just think he, there is always something ominous underneath any piece of music he has ever written.

• 36:01David Sims?

  Uh, he does have a bit of a, yeah, sure. Like a, what's it, Gothic kind of like, um, he's the best, Carter Burwell, such a sweetie pie too.

• 36:11Speaker 04

  And this movie with all of the, the zaniness that's definitely in here, his score never really acknowledges any of it. I mean, the closest the score gets to anything playful is when they're breaking into, um, the house, you know, and he's shattering the, the back door.

• 36:25Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 36:25Speaker 04

  And she's running into the bathroom and it's like that, it's just that plucky doom, doom, doom, doom. That's like,

• 36:31David Sims?

  The buildup.

• 36:32Speaker 04

  That's the happiest we get, you know?

• 36:34David Sims?

  I mean, that, that scene, the break in, the kidnapping of her is the perfect encapsulation. We're like, that seems very scary.

• 36:40Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 36:41David Sims?

  And very, very upsetting and funny the entire time.

• 36:44Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 36:45David Sims?

  And I know it is the most trite observation in the world to say that Fargo is a black comedy and nonetheless, I keep saying it, but it is the perfect. Black comic, and I do think in it was so transgressive, this movie, people were just like, I can't believe how funny it is, given that like, people get murdered and families are sad.

• 37:03Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 37:04Speaker 04

  There's something about that scene that that has to be talked about. And by the way, is this, are we ever gonna like start at the beginning and go to the end, or do we just?

• 37:10David Sims?

  No, we will, and I'm gonna open the dossier, and I'm sorry, we're jumping all around. It's just so exciting to talk about.

• 37:14Speaker 04

  Well, I could wait till we get to that scene, but there's a lot to say about about how inept these guys are. First of all, Shep Proudfoot vouches for Gare,

• 37:22David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 37:22Speaker 04

  not Showalter, right? So he he likes Peter Stormare, he does, he does not know, uh, Showalter, which is really funny.

• 37:29David Sims?

  Yeah, incredibly funny to imagine Shep and Gare hanging out.

• 37:33Speaker 04

  I could see it. I probably did time together and like grunted at each other in jail, and we're like, you're all right. Um, but, uh, but it's just so amazing how fucking terrible these guys are at crime. It's especially like I, every time I watch this movie, it blows my mind that Steve Buscemi knew they were gonna like take this car,

• 37:51Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 37:52Speaker 04

  abduct a woman, put her in the backseat and drive out of town, and he didn't have the forethought of like, putting the tags on the car that he had? It's like, oh, I forgot to change the tags. It's just the tags when they get pulled over. You know, I, it's like, that's the first thing you should have done. You know, they're terrible at crime. And then, he wants to bribe the cop when he could have just shown him the tags. Okay, so all of that is is just lunacy.

• 38:16Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 38:16Speaker 04

  But then the front door is open, and yet he puts a ski mask on, he walks up the back porch, and you can look out that door and see like seven other houses.

• 38:23David Sims?

  A million other houses. Yes, they're not in the middle of nowhere.

• 38:26Speaker 04

  Of what he's doing. And then he smashes this giant plate glass thing with a crowbar. It's gotta be louder than a gunshot.

• 38:32Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 38:32Speaker 04

  It's just so, such, such a lack of thought. It's wild. And I I love it, but it's just crazy how much these guys suck at what they're here to do.

• 38:40Griffin Newman?

  It does feel like it is their single favorite thing to explore in movies is people who are so confident that they know how to pull off something that is incredibly complicated.

• 38:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:52Griffin Newman?

  And it's usually crime.

• 38:53David Sims?

  Right.

• 38:54Griffin Newman?

  But it's also just like anytime someone's like, I think I can figure this out.

• 38:58David Sims?

  What trouble do you think Macy is in? Is he just underwater already in some other real? Real estate speculation or whatever like why does he art he needs so much money.

• 39:07Speaker 04

  And I love that they don't they don't.

• 39:09David Sims?

  They don't tell you he's just like I'm in trouble well I I I am not gonna talk about that you know like.

• 39:13Speaker 04

  And it's like a 10% finder's fee on 750 is 75,000 that's not gonna do it. He owes this other guy he's bilking this other guy out of 350,000 this is 1987. In Minnesota like. What have you done how did you get in the hole like this?

• 39:30Griffin Newman?

  I mean it's one of the most effective single lines in screenwriting history in my mind. Which is when the Harv Pressnell character says they will never need for money.

• 39:42David Sims?

  Oh yeah right it's a you know um oh the names of the characters.

• 39:47David Sims?

  Scotty and Jean never have to work.

• 39:48Griffin Newman?

  Right it's so perfect because I think from that moment you can extrapolate. William Mitch Macy has gotten in over his skis basically I assume. Five years trying to figure out some big scheme to impress his father in law and be like look how much money I made. And the deeper he gets in the hole the more he doubles down and tries to find some other way to not only bail himself out but get out ahead. And he just keeps falling deeper and deeper and deeper and it's like that sentiment. Which you just imagine he's been hearing things to this effect for so long have gotten so deeply in his head and yet. That guy's read on him is 100% correct. The most devastating thing is that he knows the guy knows he's got him pegged.

• 40:33David Sims?

  Does anybody like Jerry?

• 40:36Griffin Newman?

  No he sucks.

• 40:37David Sims?

  He sucks right?

• 40:38Speaker 04

  Does does Jean and Scotty like Jerry?

• 40:41David Sims?

  I don't think they do.

• 40:42Griffin Newman?

  I think they tolerate.

• 40:43David Sims?

  I think Jean thinks he's alright.

• 40:45Griffin Newman?

  Scotty seems kind of embarrassed by him.

• 40:47David Sims?

  Yeah although Scotty's like so into accordions.

• 40:50Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 40:50David Sims?

  And another.

• 40:51Speaker 04

  That's an amazing poster.

• 40:52David Sims?

  Unaddressed thing is that like the two things on his wall are a Whitesnake poster and like an accordion poster.

• 40:57Griffin Newman?

  But the evidence that no one likes him is how quickly all of his customers are like fuck you.

• 41:04Speaker 04

  Yeah and his coworker who's chewing the burritos like he got extra tickets and he's like.

• 41:09David Sims?

  What the fuck are you talking about? That is what I think about that guy all the time. That he won't even enter. He's like, why are you even asking? But he's disgusted that Jerry is asking for a Gopher's ticket.

• 41:19Griffin Newman?

  He is like a rare example of a guy who everyone in the universe feels comfortable big dogging.

• 41:25David Sims?

  I'm gonna open the dossier now.

• 41:26Griffin Newman?

  And just being like, you fucking whore.

• 41:28David Sims?

  Yeah, you definitely suck. I'm gonna open the dossier now. We can dig into the sort of genesis of this movie. But I do think the customer saying, "A fucking liar" is the greatest like fuck in history. The way like, he's so polite, he's such a good Minnesota guy. He's being screwed over so plainly that he's like, "I think I can call this guy a fucking liar." And so, but it's hard getting it, "A fucking liar." You see him decide to cut. Exactly. It's great.

• 41:57Griffin Newman?

  Before we open the dossier, can I throw out my big thought I had watching the movie last night? It's not a profound thought. It's a very, it's a very trite thought.

• 42:03David Sims?

  Prowler needs a jump. What's your thought?

• 42:06Griffin Newman?

  I think if anything, this movie is about the difference between being nice and being a good person.

• 42:11David Sims?

  Sure, absolutely. Of course. That's why, that is why the setting is the setting.

• 42:15Griffin Newman?

  Right. That's like the core tension of the movie. And that scene's a perfect example where that guy is just like, "I have been wronged."

• 42:23David Sims?

  Right.

• 42:23Griffin Newman?

  And I'm trying to decide if I say fuck right now, does that make me a bad person? And it's like, no, it's impolite, but it's justified.

• 42:32David Sims?

  Right.

• 42:32Griffin Newman?

  Versus a bunch of people being very nice and polite and doing awful things.

• 42:41Griffin Newman?

  David?

• 42:41David Sims?

  Yes?

• 42:42Griffin Newman?

  He lurks in shadow. He slips into dreams. He casts no reflection. Audible presents Bram Stoker's Dracula, a new full cast audio thriller starring Ella Purnell as Mina Harker, Jonathan Bailey as Dracula, and an A-list cast, including Maggie Gyllenhaal as Van Helsing, Amy Lou Wood as Lucy, David Johnson as Dr. Seward, and many more. That is an all-star cast.

• 43:02David Sims?

  Yeah, this new full cast thriller locks Mina Harker in a battle of minds with the Count. When Mina's fiance, Jonathan Harker, Louis Partridge, vanishes in Transylvania, Mina pieces together letters, diary entries, and chilling testimony to hunt the predator stalking those she loves, only to discover Dracula's already hunting her.

• 43:22Griffin Newman?

  Joined by the enigmatic Van Helsing, Mina and a small fearless band race against time to stop this ancient terror. Using her intellect, her resolve, and a gift for drawing the unseen lines between clues, Mina may just hold the key to bring down the Count if he hasn't already found his way inside her mind.

• 43:38David Sims?

  Featuring a haunting original score by Elon Eschery and a spatial dolby Atmos sound design, Audible's Dracula invites you to welcome literature's most shadowy figure into your home. Feel the terror of being haunted and the thrill of the hunt. Don't miss this year's best new audio thriller, Bram Stoker's Dracula, Audible's new full cast original adaptation, written by Robin Ahern, now on Audible. Listen to The Darkness. Go to audible.com/listen to Dracula.

• 44:12Griffin Newman?

  David!

• 44:13David Sims?

  Yes?

• 44:14Griffin Newman?

  Shop.com is giving away $1 million in Shop Cash.

• 44:18David Sims?

  Wow. Shop has all the stores you love and lets you track every order in one spot.

• 44:23Griffin Newman?

  I love that. It's very convenient.

• 44:24David Sims?

  And now, 1,000 shoppers are each gonna win $1,000 in Shop Cash, just in time for the holidays.

• 44:32Griffin Newman?

  You get gifts for everyone on your list, or get yourself something a little merry and bright. Find exactly what you're looking for at shop.com.

• 44:40David Sims?

  Uh, got stocking stuffers, maybe. The sickest luxury items.

• 44:45Griffin Newman?

  Cookware to kicks, toys to high-tech, even tinsel and tree toppers. Type in what

• 44:50David Sims?

  you're looking for to instantly search every shop at once. Okay? That's shop.com. You can just go click around, find brands you love, search across all the stores, track every order in one spot.

• 45:04Griffin Newman?

  From cult favorites to the world's biggest brands, score suite deals, and checkout fast, all at shop.com. Enter to win the $1 million Shop Cash giveaway from now until November 1st. Just go to shop.com. There are so many ways to win. That's shop.com. Shopping designed around you. No purchase necessary. Restrictions apply. Official rules available at shop.com.

• 45:35Griffin Newman?

  David.

• 45:35David Sims?

  Hmm.

• 45:36Griffin Newman?

  It's not cuffing season for me, it's hosi season for me. And this year, that meant finally upgrading my new mattress from Lisa.

• 45:44David Sims?

  Lisa.

• 45:45Griffin Newman?

  It's supportive, comfortable, and just what my body needs after a long day. It makes crawling into bed on a chilly fall night feel like luxury.

• 45:52David Sims?

  Yeah, I have a Lisa too. They've got a lineup of beautifully crafted mattresses tailored to how you sleep.

• 45:58Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 45:59David Sims?

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• 46:05Griffin Newman?

  Maybe you hear eco-friendly and you go, oh, but I'm gonna sacrifice comfort.

• 46:09David Sims?

  No.

• 46:09Griffin Newman?

  Nope.

• 46:10David Sims?

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• 46:56David Sims?

  So this film comes after The Hot Sucker Proxy. Obviously, The Hot Sucker Proxy was a bit of a failure for the Coens. I don't know your take on The Hot Sucker Proxy, Zach. It's a great movie, in my opinion.

• 47:06Speaker 04

  It's one of their, there, there are only like two Coen Brothers movies that I don't necessarily fully connect with. And, and I want to love The Hot Sucker Proxy. I've probably seen it seven or eight times. I always start it. And I'm so dazzled in the beginning. And I always kind of fall off the bike at some point in the middle of that movie.

• 47:24Griffin Newman?

  What's the other one or two, out of curiosity?

• 47:27Speaker 04

  The other one is, is, and I hate to, I hate to do any, any sort of negative talk about any Coen Brothers movie, because their, their worst days is still.

• 47:36Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 47:37Speaker 04

  Really fascinating and worth, you know, study. But, um.

• 47:41Griffin Newman?

  You know, Ladykillers, I have a hard time connecting.

• 47:43David Sims?

  I don't think anyone's really gonna like wrinkle their nose at you saying the Ladykillers ain't the best.

• 47:48Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 47:49David Sims?

  But re-Hudsucker, I mean, it's like, this movie was not a conscious reaction to that. They had already been writing it before they shot Hudsucker. The script was, I think they're always just kind of like working on the next thing as their projects spool up.

• 48:03Griffin Newman?

  But certainly post-Hudsucker, it wasn't like other studios were saying, you nailed it. Here's another forty million dollars to make a big special effects driven comedy.

• 48:12David Sims?

  Right. Fargo is, according to the Coens, and I think this is basically true, like their most realistic script yet. Like, it is contemporary-ish. It's like, right, slightly before.

• 48:25Griffin Newman?

  Blood Simple.

• 48:26David Sims?

  Blood Simple's also contemporary, and it's also very simple. I mean, honestly, it's kind of their most Blood Simpely script.

• 48:32Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 48:32David Sims?

  Since Blood Simple.

• 48:33Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 48:34David Sims?

  And.

• 48:34Griffin Newman?

  It feels like them sort of going back to what they were trying to do in that movie with the knowledge they've gained over the last ten years.

• 48:39David Sims?

  But they're like, yeah, we want to use embellished sets. We want to use relocations.

• 48:45David Sims?

  And they did include this title card saying the film was based on a true story. They, they've sort of said a lot of things over that over the years.

• 48:56Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 48:56David Sims?

  Obviously, this movie's not based on a true story. Supposedly, somebody maybe died thinking it was based on a true story, which is the basis of the also-not-true movie Kumiko the Treasure Hunter.

• 49:06Griffin Newman?

  Which is a great movie.

• 49:07David Sims?

  Very cool movie.

• 49:08Griffin Newman?

  Just so conceptually smart. Have you ever seen that movie, Zach?

• 49:11David Sims?

  I haven't. I should.

• 49:12Griffin Newman?

  It's so fucking good, but it similarly is like, starts with the title card, and this is based on a true story. And then is a movie based on an urban legend about someone believing that Fargo was true and looking for the bag of money.

• 49:30David Sims?

  The Coens say they kind of heard tall tales, essentially, along those lines, growing up in Minnesota, of this kind of stuff.

• 49:40Griffin Newman?

  Stories that are like little true crime newspaper clippings.

• 49:46David Sims?

  But I think the Paul Bunyan stuff, it's like, this is a tall tale, like a little bit, right? Like, it's a modern. Uh, tall tale.

• 49:53Griffin Newman?

  The stories that it seems to be riffing on feel very like, and I swear to God, this happened to my cousin's friend.

• 50:00David Sims?

  Right, but I think they know and they do acknowledge it in one interview that like saying a movie is based on a true story locks the audience in in a weird sort of a way where the audience is not going to be like, well, this is fanciful or like that would never happen because they're like, well, they said it was based on a true story. Like, so.

• 50:16Griffin Newman?

  I also think they, they post Miller's Crossing and Barton Fink are aware of the fact that eggheads are trying to overanalyze their movies.

• 50:23David Sims?

  You should do that in front of the Resident Evil movie you're doing, Zach. You should start with like, this is based on a true story. Umbrella is real and they're up to no good.

• 50:31Griffin Newman?

  You should recut Barbarian to have that in. You should just make that like going forward, all movies have, this is based on a true story.

• 50:38David Sims?

  In, in Weapons, uh, the first line of the movie is, this is a true story. Hell, yeah. There you go. Um, so there have been lots of.

• 50:47Griffin Newman?

  But yes, I think, no, no, it's because the, the other incident, there was some incident, the, the circumstances were very different, but of a guy hiring people to kidnap his wife to make the ransom money back. All these things that were very loose inspirations in a way that's sort of like Texas Chainsaw Massacre says it's based on a true story. And you're like, yeah, Ed Gein killed people. This is not really based on anything.

• 51:08David Sims?

  Sort of a true crime movie. Uh, they consider Blood Simple to be more like a James M. Kane type, you know, noir thriller, right? Fargo, they wanted to be drier, less hard boiled. Um, but then obviously they are also, Blood Simple's a Texas movie. Uh, and this is about where they grew up. Um, of course, the movie is named after a city in North Dakota where almost none of the action happens.

• 51:33Griffin Newman?

  It is only the encounter at the bar at the beginning of the film.

• 51:36David Sims?

  Uh, and, uh, they just like how Fargo sounds and they're right. It's a great title for a movie.

• 51:43Griffin Newman?

  Right. They were like, Brainard's a bad title.

• 51:45David Sims?

  Right.

• 51:45Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 51:46David Sims?

  Um, working title films had, uh, sort of co-produced Todd Sucker Proxy, British Production Company and, uh, which is becomes one of their biggest, uh, collaborators.

• 51:57Griffin Newman?

  And so financing both of their films.

• 51:58David Sims?

  They, um, uh, financed this film.

• 52:02David Sims?

  I think it cost about $7 million. Like, it was not like a mega production or anything like that.

• 52:09Griffin Newman?

  Look, their movies are not losing massive amounts of money up until Hudsucker. And as you pointed out, a couple of them made a little profit. But our buddy Alex Ross Perry was on Big Picture recently and was talking about this thing that's kind of disappeared from the American film industry, which is like Wes Anderson makes Bottle Rocket for like $5 million at Columbia, and it bombs, but it gets good reviews. And people are like, okay, you only get 15 to make your next movie at Disney.

• 52:39David Sims?

  Right.

• 52:40Griffin Newman?

  This sense of like, if there's innate talent and there's a voice and actors want to work with this person, that people will keep kind of investing in you in the hopes that it will pay out at some point, which certainly like Circle Films had with them and Working Title had with them.

• 52:57David Sims?

  Many of the roles are written for the actors that played them. McDormand, Buscemi, Stormare.

• 53:04David Sims?

  Had they worked with McDormand properly since Raising Arizona?

• 53:09Griffin Newman?

  Uh, no.

• 53:10David Sims?

  I'm bad at this. Is she in Miller's Crossing? She certainly hasn't done like a major role for them, basically, since Blood Simple.

• 53:18Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 53:19David Sims?

  Yeah, no, she hasn't at all.

• 53:21Griffin Newman?

  Buscemi has been in all of their movies.

• 53:24David Sims?

  In small balls.

• 53:24Griffin Newman?

  Not all of them, but a lot of them, yes. Stormare, they wanted in Miller's Crossing?

• 53:30David Sims?

  Yes. They grew up in Minnesota. They're very familiar with Minnesota nice culture, which is obviously something that I think was introduced to me and a lot of people via the movie Fargo, which we're discussing today.

• 53:43Griffin Newman?

  I think my exposure point was probably the 1996 movie Fargo.

• 53:47David Sims?

  Now, Zach, you're not from the Midwest, right? Where are you from? East Coast. Yeah, right. So you two possibly exposed to Minnesota nice type vibes, Swedish friendliness, weird, you know, all this through Fargo? Fair to say.

• 54:03David Sims?

  Joel's quote about Marge being pregnant and wearing a puffy coat is like, he's like, the sponginess is part of it, like for Minnesota. Everyone's bouncing off of people. They kind of like, we wanted her to kind of like, talk funny and wear a funny hat and walk funny because she's pregnant, but not be a clown. Like, we wanted this kind of cliche cop, but she's a good cop. Like, she's good at her job and she's very competent despite being this like cartoon nice lady. Like, the way she's like toddling around and then being like, ah, you know, like to this like grisly miserable murder scene.

• 54:43Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 54:44David Sims?

  And like, it's not like they're, like, what, you know, those Swedish dramas about murder that are so popular, they're always like, oh my god, murder in Sweden, this is so terrible. Like, in a country where no one murders. They should sort of be saying that here. One would imagine they're like, we don't see a lot of like insane murders here in fucking Brainerd, right? But they're never like that. They're more just kind of like, oh, boy, you know?

• 55:05Griffin Newman?

  But that like speaks to this notion of a dark Marge thing where it's like, she, this isn't her first day on the job, even if this case, the fucking ice cup.

• 55:16David Sims?

  No, I'm just drinking some water. Sorry.

• 55:18Griffin Newman?

  I would say, the audio says different.

• 55:24David Sims?

  But you can tell that she has seen many murders and this is just her job.

• 55:29Griffin Newman?

  And part of her demeanor is to sort of like cope with it and cover it, you know? And not like, I mean, we've talked about other movies, like Manhunter is always the one I think about, where that for me is a movie about a guy who's just like spent enough time in the darkness that he's actually never going to come out now.

• 55:44David Sims?

  Right. Manhunter, I mean, Will Graham is like, I'm so good at understanding murderers that my head hurts.

• 55:49Griffin Newman?

  Right. And I'm past the point of no return. Like, I no longer know how to talk to my wife.

• 55:53David Sims?

  The way McDormand puts it about Marge says, she says, there's something scary about Marge that's hard to articulate. She's simple and on the surface, but she's not naive, she's not innocent, because she's good at her job, which gives her contact with crime and murder, but she has absolutely no understanding of why people do the terrible things they do. Possibly she represents this certain feeling, which I think Joel and Ethan felt, felt growing up in Minnesota. But like, she does, she's sort of hinting at like, yeah, there's something kind of like inherently odd about this character.

• 56:21Speaker 04

  That might be the core of dark Marge, is this willful. Sort of lack of acknowledgement that that Minnesota nice has, you know, Marge is looking at the windshield at the end of the movie. She says, and it's a beautiful day and it is, it is not a beautiful day. It is like sleeting. You feel like you're in Mongolia, you know, and it's like the worst day of all. And so this just total like, I'm just deciding to only see the positive. Everything is fine and it's an interesting sort of dichotomy with her where she is unfazed by murder. And yet she is, you know, ignoring the darkness that is clearly all around.

• 56:56David Sims?

  She is putting the core of it.

• 56:58Griffin Newman?

  Active work into trying to maintain some core belief in humanity.

• 57:03David Sims?

  Here's my, I've seen Thorga a million times. So do not worry about Marge. Like, I know she's gonna make it through the movie. And I probably always knew that because she does feel indestructible, but like when you're with Marge in this movie, I would say, let's maybe put aside the Mike Yanagita scene. You're very comforted, like them being in bed together is so comfortable.

• 57:22Griffin Newman?

  It is one of the healthiest marriages.

• 57:23Speaker 04

  You wanna just crawl into that bed and just snuggle off with Marge?

• 57:27Griffin Newman?

  I've ever seen depicted in the film.

• 57:28David Sims?

  Gotta eat a breakfast is, you know, what her husband.

• 57:31Griffin Newman?

  I saw someone else call out, by the way.

• 57:33David Sims?

  Them eating Arby's together, like, you know, all their, like, usually you're just like very happy to be in her presence.

• 57:39Griffin Newman?

  Every scene they have together, they're either eating in bed or both.

• 57:42David Sims?

  Yes, right.

• 57:43Griffin Newman?

  It is literally always some form of like comfort.

• 57:46David Sims?

  And like, I, I wonder about like, watching this movie for the first time, did you, did it, did people have the kind of like, Marge is, is she gonna be okay? Like, she's like, kind of moseying into this like awful thing, like, but I don't, I, I'm trying to imagine every feeling that she's in peril.

• 58:05Speaker 04

  Because she's pregnant, we know this movie can't.

• 58:07David Sims?

  Yeah, it's like, they're not gonna do that. There is some sort of like fundamental, like, no, like she will.

• 58:12Speaker 04

  They're not allowed to kill the pregnant.

• 58:14David Sims?

  Right.

• 58:14Griffin Newman?

  It does bake innate sort of stakes into it. It does make your lizard brain sort of on guard. Like you feel more worried about her, even though it's hard to think of a movie with a character being pregnant. Where you see the belly less in a way.

• 58:31David Sims?

  Sure.

• 58:31Griffin Newman?

  Cause as you said, she's so bundled.

• 58:33David Sims?

  Right.

• 58:33Griffin Newman?

  You know, you're sort of aware of it, but they're not constantly like showing you her in maternity pants or whatever.

• 58:40Speaker 04

  And they only verbally acknowledge it, I think, twice in the whole movie when she says, carrying quite a load here. And I think maybe at the end, when they say two more months.

• 58:49David Sims?

  Yeah, they say, yeah, but that's about it. It's right. It's, no one is ever like. Are you okay? Right.

• 58:55Speaker 04

  When Mike Yanagita hugs her too tight.

• 58:57David Sims?

  Yes.

• 58:57Speaker 04

  You know, she mentions it then.

• 58:59David Sims?

  Buscemi, obviously, is in a lot of their movies. In Miller's Crossing, is literally hired because they need a motor mouth. They need someone who can read dialogue fast. So they write this for him, thinking like, you will be the person who doesn't shut up. Yeah. He's also, and Ethan says this, he's the audience. Yeah. Like, 100%. He's the one who basically reacts to everyone with like, what the fuck is the matter with you? To Jerry, to Grims, to Gare, to Harvey Presnel when he meets him. Right. Like, like, he, he is an outsider and kind of an alien and like, the only non-Minneso- I mean, I, Gare is sort of like, actually Swedish, I guess. But like, he kind of counts. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 59:39Speaker 04

  Although, Steve Buscemi, you do get the vibe that he is, if not from this neck of the woods, intimately familiar with, with these, these territories.

• 59:47David Sims?

  He knows where to get laid.

• 59:48Speaker 04

  Go get laid, exactly.

• 59:50David Sims?

  He definitely knows where to get laid, and how, yeah.

• 59:53David Sims?

  Willie M. H. Macy is the only sort of star that was cast, like, you know, where they are. He, he reads for the deputy detective, for Carl. Carl, is that his name? I'm not sure, I don't know, Lou, Lou, sorry. Not sure I agree with you 100% on your police work there, Lou. They like the audition, and the Coens are like, that was funny. I mean, because Willie M. H. Macy, at this point, I think is basically just kind of like- He's like a Mammoth Theater guy. He's a theater guy, he's on ER, in like, a big recurring role. He's a Chicago sort of semi-legend or whatever, but he's not like, a big movie actor. And at his audition, the Coens are like, you should read Jerry. Like, this was good. So they send him away, and he comes back tomorrow.

• 1:00:38David Sims?

  And he does his audition, and they said, that's real good, thanks. And then he finds out that they're auditioning in New York still. So, as he puts it, "I got my jolly Lutheran ass on an airplane and walked in and said, "I want to read again because I'm scared you're going to screw this up and hire someone else."

• 1:00:56Griffin Newman?

  Uh, he has said, I want to get his quote here. He said, I actually said that, you know, you can't play that card too often as an actor. Sometimes it just blows up in your face, but I said, guys, this is my role. I want this. I like his acknowledgement that most of the time people do those fucking gambits. It is like so beyond destructive and embarrassing to their careers.

• 1:01:18David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:01:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:01:19David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:01:19Griffin Newman?

  But you hear about the rare examples of like-

• 1:01:21David Sims?

  People shouldn't tell those stories because it emboldens people probably to act crazy.

• 1:01:25Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:01:25David Sims?

  Right. They had written the part as like a sort of slovenly guy. And with Macy, they're like, no, it's like a tightly wound performance, essentially.

• 1:01:33Speaker 04

  That's wild.

• 1:01:34David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:01:34Speaker 04

  They have conceived of this as like a sloven, like-

• 1:01:37David Sims?

  Like a kind of overweight, like loser. Yeah.

• 1:01:41Speaker 04

  That is insane.

• 1:01:42Griffin Newman?

  They also said-

• 1:01:42Speaker 04

  Like, who would have, who would have been right for that?

• 1:01:44Griffin Newman?

  No one.

• 1:01:45David Sims?

  Um, the true coat scene where the guy calls him a fucking liar is, uh, an experience Ethan Cohen had essentially word for word.

• 1:01:53Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:01:53David Sims?

  Like buying a car in Minnesota.

• 1:01:55Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:01:55David Sims?

  And never forgot, clearly.

• 1:01:57Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:57David Sims?

  Um, Harvey Presnell, who is so amazing in this movie and has a voice like a car engine.

• 1:02:04Griffin Newman?

  You said this in our Jurassic Park episode, but that the magic of that movie is any scene you're watching, whoever's on screen at that moment, you think is the best performance in the movie.

• 1:02:12David Sims?

  Sure.

• 1:02:13Griffin Newman?

  And Fargo's another one of those where every time I watch it, I'm like, who's my best supporting actor nominee?

• 1:02:18David Sims?

  He's so good.

• 1:02:19Griffin Newman?

  And like some of the one scene performances, I'm like, well, it's this guy.

• 1:02:23David Sims?

  The thing with him is he is a sort of a Broadway legend and like a big singer.

• 1:02:28Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:28David Sims?

  And when you realize that about him, because then later in life, he was this kind of gravelly character actor.

• 1:02:33Griffin Newman?

  I thought this was his first movie in like 15 or 20 years?

• 1:02:36David Sims?

  I think it was a bit of a resurgence for him because then he's in Saving Private Ryan. He has an incredible monologue in Saving Private Ryan.

• 1:02:42Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:43David Sims?

  Uh, and he does, right, he does like 10-

• 1:02:45Griffin Newman?

  Andy Barker, P I, of course.

• 1:02:47David Sims?

  Yeah, he was funny on that.

• 1:02:48Griffin Newman?

  He was very good on it.

• 1:02:48David Sims?

  But yeah, he does like 10 years of this.

• 1:02:51Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:02:51David Sims?

  Right, yeah. Um, but I obviously mostly associate him with, with Fargo. Um, but, uh, they had- They they wrote that character, basically, when they were raising money for Blood Simple. They met lots of like Texas businessmen, you know,

• 1:03:09Griffin Newman?

  That makes sense.

• 1:03:10David Sims?

  who were like, sort of like, sort of little petty

• 1:03:12Griffin Newman?

  Yep.

• 1:03:13David Sims?

  kings. And this is what that character is, right? A guy who's like, made a lot of money, but kind of in like, his locality.

• 1:03:20Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:20David Sims?

  Uh, and so, yeah, Jerry's like, obviously the loser version of that. And this is, and then Joel, John Carroll Lynch, the great, great, great John Carroll Lynch. Uh, they just loved his face.

• 1:03:31Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:32David Sims?

  He's so good.

• 1:03:33Griffin Newman?

  So they, talking about like, the secret edge to Marge, the hidden edge. Uh, McDormand, I just love this idea that McDormand felt comfortable enough to constantly push them to be like, what's going on under the surface here?

• 1:03:48David Sims?

  Sure.

• 1:03:49Griffin Newman?

  Which other actors, I think, kind of wouldn't. Um, she was like, what's our backstory? And they were like, I don't know, you guys figure it out.

• 1:03:57David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:03:58Griffin Newman?

  And the thing they settled on was that they met on the force together.

• 1:04:03David Sims?

  Uh huh.

• 1:04:04Griffin Newman?

  When they decide to get married, they were like, this is too dangerous for both of us. And he quit because she was a better cop.

• 1:04:10David Sims?

  But, so there's this

• 1:04:12Speaker 04

  You know what's interesting about that backstory, though? That doesn't jive, uh, with Mike Yanagita.

• 1:04:17David Sims?

  Saying, you married

• 1:04:18Speaker 04

  The vibe that they went to high school together.

• 1:04:19David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:04:20Speaker 04

  Oh, you married old Norm's son of a Gunderson. Like, Mike knew Norm back in the day, so.

• 1:04:24Griffin Newman?

  I guess maybe they didn't meet on the force, but that they were both cops. I mean, they also said the Coens were like, I don't know, whatever. If that, if that makes you guys happier. But like, the way they were playing internally was, they both knew that she was the better cop. It would be absurd for her to retire, even if she's the one who's pregnant.

• 1:04:42David Sims?

  Hmm. Um, Deakins, uh, Roger Deakins, uh, shoots this movie. Um, absolutely went insane.

• 1:04:50Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:50David Sims?

  Just incredible looking movie.

• 1:04:52Griffin Newman?

  And yet, coming off of, uh, Hudsucker in particular, I was watching some of his commentary on this.

• 1:04:58David Sims?

  Yeah, he, the DVD has a Deakins commentary.

• 1:05:01Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:05:01David Sims?

  If you want it.

• 1:05:02Griffin Newman?

  Um, and he's, his podcast now that he does with his wife, Team Deakins, is so fucking good.

• 1:05:07David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:05:07Griffin Newman?

  This commentary was recorded like 25 years ago, and it feels like he's not su- Super comfortable talking at length about stuff.

• 1:05:12David Sims?

  Sure.

• 1:05:12Griffin Newman?

  Not that he's cagey, but it feels like he hasn't, whatever. But he did say like, I read this script and it was just so fucking good and the characters are so good and they cast such good actors. That I was like, I don't need to do anything fancy here. This location's interesting and you just watch it with the commentary and he keeps breaking down like, yeah, this is another scene where it's two setups total.

• 1:05:33David Sims?

  Well, they initially told him, we only want fixed shots. Like you're doing nothing. And then they realized like, that's maybe a little too puritanical.

• 1:05:41Griffin Newman?

  But it is.

• 1:05:41David Sims?

  And they do move the camera and like, you know, there's a little bit of stuff, but it's a pretty.

• 1:05:46Griffin Newman?

  In every scene I was like, what's the simplest way to cover this? And the only things I care about are like capturing the performance and the performance relative to their environment. As you were saying, Zach, it's like such a location movie. That, and it's also, it's a thing that I find so fascinating about them, and especially their work with Deacons. That they almost always, if not literally always, shoot inside of the conversation. You kind of never get over the shoulder stuff with the Cohens. You're always placed in between the people talking.

• 1:06:19David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:21Griffin Newman?

  And that part of it is, I think Deacons talks about, you know, he came out of documentaries first and foremost. And his school of thought for how meticulous he's able to like meticulously construct what feels like the perfect frame. He talks about it being a pretty organic process. That for him, it's like figuring out how to do with the fewest number of lights possible, the fewest setups, like simplify it. And he's like, my guiding principle is just like, what is the best place for the camera to be to capture what the actor's doing? Because he's used to that from documentaries of like, you might not get multiple setups, you just need to be, have the right relationship to the subject in that moment. And so everything is just kind of like drilled down to like, you want to be right there as if the person is kind of talking to you. In the center of the space.

• 1:07:06David Sims?

  Movie's entirely location, basically no sets at all. There's one bathroom set, that's it. And.

• 1:07:13Speaker 04

  That's gotta be the storm air shower curtain.

• 1:07:15David Sims?

  Right, where they're fucking things up. That makes sense. And, you know, they famously, I feel like it's the most disgusting about this movie, had no snow. They had like a weird mild winter, so they had to bring in a ton of artificial snow. And then they had to like go to North Dakota to to like shoot a big exterior stuff because like they had to go find snow essentially.

• 1:07:38Griffin Newman?

  Deacon said the opening credits shot is one of the last things they shot because they finally had given up and were like, we're not getting the snow we need. We have to travel out and we'll get that last. Yeah.

• 1:07:50David Sims?

  Guys, do you want to talk about Fargo?

• 1:07:52Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:52David Sims?

  Okay, great.

• 1:07:54Griffin Newman?

  Uh, so yes, opens with, uh, true story cards.

• 1:08:00David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:08:00Griffin Newman?

  Then this negotiation between Macy and Stormy.

• 1:08:03David Sims?

  I'm not gonna debate you, Jerry.

• 1:08:04David Sims?

  Sorry, that's such a big deal here. And, and, and, and I, David, I feel like you wanted to slide past it, but I have to. No, go ahead. 1987 is important. Yep. I think that's important. Why do you think that's important? I don't disagree with you. I think it's because it's about the end of the Reagan era. It's about the financial boom that is coming to an end here. But they're, you know, like the rugged individualism of Harvey Presley, of the dad, right? Being like, this is my money. Like, I feel like it all feels very eighties, very Reagan. Like, he's like, I'm this, I'm this self-made, like, macho man, right? And like, that's what Jerry wants to be. Yeah.

• 1:08:39Griffin Newman?

  Also, not, look, Reagan was not a Minnesota guy.

• 1:08:43David Sims?

  No, he sure wasn't.

• 1:08:44Griffin Newman?

  Was not his kind of persona and the way he like built off of his Hollywood history.

• 1:08:49David Sims?

  I will trumpet, Minnesota is the only state that did not vote for Ronald Reagan in either election.

• 1:08:54Griffin Newman?

  It's pretty nice.

• 1:08:54David Sims?

  The only state.

• 1:08:56Griffin Newman?

  Pretty nice of them.

• 1:08:56David Sims?

  Yeah. That's wild. Isn't that crazy? That is insane. Now, that's partly because Walter Mondale was from Minnesota, so he did win his home state. It was the only state he won. He swept 49 states. Reagan won 49 states and Walter Mondale won Minnesota and Washington DC. Wow. Yep.

• 1:09:13Griffin Newman?

  Wow.

• 1:09:14David Sims?

  Yep. Reagan won by 18 points. It was a big win.

• 1:09:16Griffin Newman?

  That as well.

• 1:09:16David Sims?

  For old Ronnie. Both times.

• 1:09:18Speaker 04

  No, for the second time. I just think it's interesting that this, this opening title card doesn't just say this is based on a true story. It gives the look, it gives the, the year. And then it says, if I remember correctly, you know, um, names have been changed to protect the innocent and out of respect for the dead. The rest has been told exactly as it is heard. It's like, that is. The bravado of stating that of like, yeah, we barely wrote the thing. This is exactly what happened. It's awesome and it may, it's more convincing. It's like they, they did it perfectly.

• 1:09:47Griffin Newman?

  But it's also, I mean, it, it's where like, I don't think this movie is even like incidentally based off of little snippets of news stories. As much as it is based on the idea of reading something like this in the paper and being like, that's so bizarre.

• 1:10:03Speaker 04

  Sure. And you. That's the magic of truth crime.

• 1:10:05Griffin Newman?

  If you saw it in a movie, you'd be like, this is overwritten versus telling you this is real. You're like, I guess weird shit happens.

• 1:10:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:10:13Griffin Newman?

  You do hear it.

• 1:10:14Speaker 04

  You must've seen that clip of William H Macy describing the moment he learned it wasn't. And he's on set, like he was already in production.

• 1:10:21Griffin Newman?

  Oh, yes. They didn't tell anyone.

• 1:10:23Speaker 04

  And they, and he found out it wasn't based on a true story. And he goes up to the cones. He's like, you guys, this is not true. And they're like, no, he's like, you can't do that. And they're like, yeah, we can. And it's just like, well, I'm actually goes, okay. It's just like, there's nothing to be said, I guess.

• 1:10:40Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. No one's gonna like find them.

• 1:10:41Speaker 04

  He would get so deep in the process and, and, and not know.

• 1:10:45Griffin Newman?

  Well, and also just be like, you didn't like research the real guy, but yet you feel betrayed by this.

• 1:10:51Speaker 04

  Think about, he didn't want to meet anyone who knew Jerry London card.

• 1:10:55Griffin Newman?

  You found no like supporting material to like look into. Um, no, I was just gonna say there's something in the like, I mean, it's the fucking, the, the Phil Hartman Reagan sketch. But there's something in like Reagan's public persona that does feel a little adjacent to the like Minnesota nice energy of this movie. Where this guy like.

• 1:11:16Speaker 04

  Phoniness, is that the word?

• 1:11:17Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:11:17Speaker 04

  Sure. Yeah. Like, right.

• 1:11:18Griffin Newman?

  Use his sort of like old Hollywood folksy like, I'm just the gipper kind of thing. And like, right. Sold this sort of like, it's morning in America. How can you argue with this?

• 1:11:28Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:11:29Griffin Newman?

  Don't we all want America to be like, like it was in the morning? Um, but it's right, basking like a very kind of mercenary strategic, uh, mind. Yeah.

• 1:11:39Speaker 04

  And it, and it just sets the stage for the, for everything that comes after. It's like, everything is now seen through a different lens. You know, you, you engage with the movie in a completely new way and you indulge these little scenes of, of slower pacing because you believe this really happened. I just think it's, it's, you take that out, you know, you watch this movie without that title card. You have a completely different experience.

• 1:11:59David Sims?

  I think you're right. I think it does, right. It just sort of locks the audience in.

• 1:12:03Griffin Newman?

  It's another read on the Mike Yanagita scene I love. Yanagita, sorry, uh, that I love is that it's in there because it's the kind of thing that would be included in a movie based on a true story.

• 1:12:16David Sims?

  We, we, we cut to her talking and she's like, and then I got lunch with my friend, Mike Yanagita. And it was a little funny. It was a little weird about that.

• 1:12:23Griffin Newman?

  But if it was part of the real story, I guess you'd need to figure out how to dramatize it.

• 1:12:28David Sims?

  Um, so the first, but the first meeting in Fargo, trying to think what to highlight apart from just like the, the clash between Buscemi's kind of like, I'm not going to debate Jerry, you know, energy and Jerry's aw shucks-ness. Yeah. You're scrolling through the movie here.

• 1:12:49Speaker 04

  The one interesting thing about this interaction is it's the, it's the only window we get into Gare at all beyond this guy's a stone cold psychopath because Gare leans in and he says, oh, your fucking wife, you know? Like he, Gare displays some sort of like moral judgment on Jerry for this, for this scheme. He's like, you want us to kidnap your own wife? It's just fascinating because for the rest of the movie, he, he shows nothing.

• 1:13:13Griffin Newman?

  Right. He otherwise seems like the single most scrupulous character. Cause like even Buscemi sort of goes like, why the fuck would you do this? You know, as much as I think he prides himself on being a guy who can override any sense of morality. Buscemi clearly has checks and balances in his head and he feels fear from doing the wrong thing. Even if he's like, it's worth it for money. Versus Gare just kind of seems to be like-

• 1:13:45David Sims?

  Well, Gare's like a psychopath.

• 1:13:47Griffin Newman?

  He's a true psychopath and he almost feels like a spiritual demonic force.

• 1:13:51David Sims?

  Right. But yeah, I guess Carl is a petty criminal is basically what's- Right. Right? Like that is his general-

• 1:13:57Griffin Newman?

  Like prides himself on, I can like do the unkind thing-

• 1:14:00David Sims?

  Right. He's certainly not, they're not being hired, no funny stuff. This is a no rough stuff type of deal.

• 1:14:04Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:05David Sims?

  Um, and, but yes, uh, the, the, the idea of course is that they're gonna get 80 grand and split it.

• 1:14:12Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:14:13David Sims?

  Uh, we do not realize until way later in the movie, obviously, that the real scheme is that there's a million dollars that the criminals will just get a tiny amount of. I feel like when you learn that, there's something so brazen about it that you're kind of like, God, that's so smart of Jerry. And you're also like, that's so stupid of Jerry.

• 1:14:30Griffin Newman?

  It's so fucking-

• 1:14:31David Sims?

  Way too much money. Like, it's crazy.

• 1:14:35Speaker 04

  You know, what would have happened if, you know, when, when his father-in-law was listening in on the call with Carl, if Carl had said, bring the 80 grand.

• 1:14:42Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:43Speaker 04

  His, his father-in-law would have known in that moment-

• 1:14:45David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:14:45Speaker 04

  Jerry did all of this.

• 1:14:47Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:14:47Speaker 04

  Why am I putting a hu- a million bucks in this briefcase when the kidnappers are asking for 80?

• 1:14:51David Sims?

  And of course, there's, there's so many tension points to this movie. If, if people would just kind of be like, yeah, fine. I'll pay you a little extra for the car.

• 1:14:58Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:14:58David Sims?

  Or whatever. That like, that's the magic of the Coens, obviously, is you-

• 1:15:03Griffin Newman?

  But also to your point, you're like, does he get away with it if it's a million and they're doing a split?

• 1:15:08David Sims?

  There's no way they get away with it in any circumstance, right?

• 1:15:11Griffin Newman?

  You're right. No, you're right. You're right.

• 1:15:13David Sims?

  There is no way that the wife gets returned-

• 1:15:15Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:15:16David Sims?

  And they escape with the money and everyone's like, oh, well, that was weird, but who cares?

• 1:15:21Griffin Newman?

  But it is, right. The, I mean, look, the core mistake is the plot.

• 1:15:24David Sims?

  Oh, and I bought a parking lot, by the way.

• 1:15:26Speaker 04

  Here's a question.

• 1:15:27Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:27Speaker 04

  Let's say that they had killed Jean and yet Jerry got the million dollars.

• 1:15:32David Sims?

  Right. Okay. So like, everything proceeds the same way. It's just that Jerry escapes with the money or gets the money.

• 1:15:38Speaker 04

  He gets the money and, and, and he doesn't even have to flee. Like, he gets the money, they kill Jean, he never gets her back. The police are like, we're so sorry your wife was murdered, but he's a million dollars richer.

• 1:15:47Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:47Speaker 04

  Do you think Jerry considers that kind of a win?

• 1:15:50Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:50Speaker 04

  I mean, is, is he also a psychopath? I think he is.

• 1:15:53David Sims?

  He is, or he's at least-

• 1:15:54Speaker 04

  He could live the rest of his life with this terrible secret and not be so bothered by it.

• 1:15:58David Sims?

  He's a bad person, and I'm not out here to call, you know, to cast judgment. But the moment where, uh, what's the Stan Grossman is like, how's your son? And he goes, oh, oh, like, and you see it dawn on him like, right, my son's probably pretty fucked up about this. He's so shattering because you're just like, so there's like a hint-

• 1:16:20Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:16:20David Sims?

  Of like humanity left to Jerry. He doesn't love that this is happening.

• 1:16:24Griffin Newman?

  That's why I don't think he's like-

• 1:16:25David Sims?

  Jerry doesn't want his wife to die. I don't think he likes her like that much.

• 1:16:29Speaker 04

  But the fact that it has never occurred to him in the weeks and weeks of putting this together, like, oh, Scotty might be upset. It's not until that moment that, that somebody else brings it to his attention. I think reinforces that this dude would be fine if Jean died.

• 1:16:41Griffin Newman?

  I agree.

• 1:16:42Speaker 04

  He just doesn't care.

• 1:16:43Griffin Newman?

  I, I think it's less that he's an innately sociopath than more that like his innate insecurity and his lack of confidence and how he is perceived relative to like masculinity in the world has completely curdled his brain. Like it now overrides every other decision he makes. It's all through the calculus of like, how do I impress people? How do I look like a guy that people have to treat with respect?

• 1:17:08David Sims?

  Um, yeah, I, he's whatever. He obviously prioritizes his own security as well over-

• 1:17:15Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:15David Sims?

  His wife's life.

• 1:17:16Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:17:16David Sims?

  He wants to pay off his debts, I guess.

• 1:17:20Griffin Newman?

  Right, and I think there's a version of him that's like, if he owns a parking lot and people feel sympathy for him because his wife died and he can get away with it.

• 1:17:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's a win.

• 1:17:29Griffin Newman?

  That's an additional win.

• 1:17:31David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:32Speaker 04

  I mean, let's say he never did this scheme. Let's say he was just on the up and up. He made some bad investments. He owes $750,000 or something like that, and he, he files bankruptcy.

• 1:17:40Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:41Speaker 04

  His father-in-law would probably pressure Jean to divorce him and he would be a divorced dad and he'd live at the Jolly Roger, you know, down, down, down the road. That, that to him is so unacceptable-

• 1:17:52Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:17:52Speaker 04

  That, that this is the action he takes. Yeah.

• 1:17:55Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:55Speaker 04

  It's fascinating.

• 1:17:56Griffin Newman?

  I have no doubt that Jean's father would try to, even more than before, convince her to leave him. And yet, as much as we're saying that she doesn't seem to like really love him- They make a choice to not have her be some nagging, rolling pin wife.

• 1:18:15David Sims?

  I think she would stick with him.

• 1:18:16Griffin Newman?

  I think she'd stick with him.

• 1:18:17David Sims?

  His father-in-law would have to bail him out financially.

• 1:18:19Griffin Newman?

  Exactly.

• 1:18:19David Sims?

  And it would just be this toxic, poisonous wedge in that relationship. But I think that is his ultimate fear.

• 1:18:25Griffin Newman?

  That's his ultimate fear.

• 1:18:26David Sims?

  This man will hate me more than he does.

• 1:18:28Griffin Newman?

  And the ultimate admitting of defeat of this guy owns me. Cause the only reason I'm still in the picture is because he bailed me out.

• 1:18:35David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:36Griffin Newman?

  I couldn't prove myself.

• 1:18:38David Sims?

  Right. How they ended up together is also a bit of a mystery. Like, how did Jerry ever charm anyone in a way? But she does seem like, she's not like a total idiot, but she seems like a bit of a kind of like sweet, simple kind of gal, I guess.

• 1:18:55Speaker 04

  I mean, she's laughing at the most vapid morning talk.

• 1:18:58David Sims?

  The worst shit.

• 1:18:59Speaker 04

  Like, she is not, you know, she's not reading a Russian novel on the couch, you know?

• 1:19:05David Sims?

  God bless. But I mean, and that's the sort of like the classic Coens thing where some people are like, are they being patronizing? Like, are they rude, you know, do they hate these characters or whatever? And I'm like, no, they love these characters, I feel like. They even kind of love Jerry. Like Jerry's demise at the end of the movie, not to, you know, where he's getting dragged. There's this like twinge of sympathy for the guy. You know what I mean? Where you're just like, God.

• 1:19:25Speaker 04

  I totally disagree.

• 1:19:26David Sims?

  He's such a loser. Like even, he can't even go out like strong, you know what I mean? Like them like dragging him in his underwear. You're absolutely like, yeah, he deserves it.

• 1:19:36Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:19:36David Sims?

  Like, I'm not like, you're like, ah, poor Jerry. But you're just like, God, he's just always a fucking loser, isn't he?

• 1:19:42Speaker 04

  But the fact that they make him do these guttural grunts like the grape's up lady.

• 1:19:46David Sims?

  Yeah, it's so crazy. I mean, God bless Macy, he like goes for it.

• 1:19:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:19:50David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:51Griffin Newman?

  Uh, you know what I find fascinating?

• 1:19:52David Sims?

  I don't.

• 1:19:53Griffin Newman?

  It has basically been confirmed, I think at this point, that William H Macy was the original voice of Marlin in Finding Nemo.

• 1:20:01David Sims?

  Uh huh. And he was like too much of a loser?

• 1:20:03Griffin Newman?

  Yes. And they like test screened it with like story reels before they started animation. And it was like, the audience hates this guy?

• 1:20:11David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:12Griffin Newman?

  And he was like, I don't know, I thought this like made sense with the sort of like William H Macy worrying persona. And he was like, I gotta get someone who's like comedian first and foremost and can like own this as a joke. But it makes sense because there's something so contemptible about him in this mode of like pathetic. That even when it's funny, it does make your skin crawl.

• 1:20:34Speaker 04

  And think about him in Boogie Nights. It's like when he puts the gun in his mouth, it's like, we're all kind of like, oh, man, what a loser, you know?

• 1:20:40David Sims?

  He really was on such a run of losers, right? Between this and the PTA movies.

• 1:20:46Speaker 04

  I know, and Magnolia.

• 1:20:47Griffin Newman?

  Oh, my god.

• 1:20:48David Sims?

  He's the worst in Magnolia. Magnolia, he's amazing in it, obviously. But that is a character where like compared, like Jerry is tough, is a tough hang.

• 1:20:57Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 1:20:57David Sims?

  He's a big loser.

• 1:20:58Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 1:20:59David Sims?

  But fucking, um, Quiz Kid Donny Smith, you're just like, I can't look at this guy.

• 1:21:04Griffin Newman?

  Original trivia team name, by the way.

• 1:21:05David Sims?

  That's true. Uh, in Pilot Circa, C.C. Pirate came up with that name, but like you can't look at him.

• 1:21:11Griffin Newman?

  You're just like, this is Henry Gibson at the bar.

• 1:21:13David Sims?

  Tragic, yes.

• 1:21:14Griffin Newman?

  Is like one of the most skin crawling things I've ever seen. That's basically what Stanton said is like, he was too good of an actor. That you couldn't laugh at this guy being an erotic fish dad. You're just like, oh, my god, this guy's fucked up.

• 1:21:25Speaker 04

  And it's funny to watch him in other movies where he's, he's not a loser, you know, like I watched, I watched Jurassic Park three last week and

• 1:21:32Griffin Newman?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:21:33Speaker 04

  And he's, and he's, you know, he's not like a hero, but, but they've jettisoned all pathetic drip out of, out of his character in that. And it's like, what are we doing with this guy? Like, what is, what is happening here?

• 1:21:43Griffin Newman?

  Okay, now I would need to sidebar here for a second because David and I are both Jurassic Park three defenders, but you're making me.

• 1:21:49Speaker 04

  And I am too. I, I had, I enjoyed the movie very much.

• 1:21:52Griffin Newman?

  Uh, you're making me realize something for the first time. Is that movie missing the spice of Macy going full Jerry Lundergaard?

• 1:21:59Speaker 04

  Oh, there's, because there's a dash of it.

• 1:22:01Griffin Newman?

  There's a dash, but if that character totally unravels and becomes that pathetic.

• 1:22:05David Sims?

  But then you need him to get eaten by dinosaurs. You'd be like, dinosaurs, eat this man.

• 1:22:11Griffin Newman?

  But I, I still think we're solving problems here.

• 1:22:13David Sims?

  But what's interesting, Pleasant Phil's in the middle of this run as well.

• 1:22:16Griffin Newman?

  Which he's so good.

• 1:22:17David Sims?

  He's excellent in that movie and he's also playing kind of a loser, but much more lovable character, very sympathetic character.

• 1:22:23Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:22:23David Sims?

  He can give sympathetic performances.

• 1:22:26Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:26David Sims?

  He's amazing in Air Force One.

• 1:22:28Griffin Newman?

  Wild Hogs, one of the most sympathetic performances in history.

• 1:22:30David Sims?

  I, what does he do in?

• 1:22:31Griffin Newman?

  He's good at computers. He fucks Marisa Tomei.

• 1:22:34David Sims?

  Great.

• 1:22:34Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:35David Sims?

  Well, in Air Force One, it was you. You've never, have you seen her first one?

• 1:22:39Griffin Newman?

  I have.

• 1:22:39David Sims?

  But like, it's not.

• 1:22:40Griffin Newman?

  It's not one of my.

• 1:22:41David Sims?

  I've seen it like 400 times. Uh, he says it was you. It's incredible.

• 1:22:44Griffin Newman?

  Well, also, let's remember his most emotionally rounded and resonant performance.

• 1:22:48David Sims?

  Seabiscuit?

• 1:22:49Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. Guy with all the things that make noises.

• 1:22:52David Sims?

  The, uh, he's got a little triangle.

• 1:22:54Griffin Newman?

  Remember when they nominated him for a Golden Globe for that performance? Everyone's like, yeah, why not? Who gives a shit?

• 1:23:01David Sims?

  So, alright, so Jerry hires these guys and then, you know, we're like, we don't meet March for half an hour. So we're just in this immediately unraveling situation, right? Like, how quickly do we get? I guess we, we go from that to sort of setup of like Jerry and his family.

• 1:23:18Griffin Newman?

  I think the beginning.

• 1:23:19David Sims?

  Dork Jerry is.

• 1:23:20Griffin Newman?

  Right, right. And then it cuts back to the two of them in the car. And I feel like that's the immediate unraveling is these guys can't get along.

• 1:23:29David Sims?

  Uh, right.

• 1:23:30Griffin Newman?

  That Buscemi is so unsettled by his silence.

• 1:23:33David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:23:34Griffin Newman?

  That he keeps going like, it's fine. I cannot talk. Let's not talk all day. And then he won't stop talking about not talking.

• 1:23:40Speaker 04

  It's, it's, it's so, so brilliant.

• 1:23:42Griffin Newman?

  It's so good.

• 1:23:43Speaker 04

  Total fucking silence.

• 1:23:44David Sims?

  Where is Pancake's house? I too would get sick of pancakes. I get sick of pancakes usually in the middle of a pancake order.

• 1:23:51Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:51Speaker 04

  And the smoking with the windows up. I mean, that right there would.

• 1:23:55David Sims?

  The move Stormare does.

• 1:23:57Griffin Newman?

  He's got bad manners. Yeah.

• 1:23:58David Sims?

  Where, when in the murder, in the, the, you know, the, the crime, the, I don't know how to describe it. The, the triple homicide scene. Where he like rolls the window down and he just kind of like lets the cigarette out of his hand. I think about it all the time.

• 1:24:10Speaker 04

  It's so graceful. He's kind of like rocking in this sort of like strange, kind of like autistic like.

• 1:24:16David Sims?

  Right, him going into like full psycho mode.

• 1:24:18Speaker 04

  It's beautiful.

• 1:24:20David Sims?

  Woo!

• 1:24:20Speaker 04

  It's terrifying. It's terrifying.

• 1:24:22David Sims?

  Yes, it is. He is so scary.

• 1:24:23Griffin Newman?

  But even there's something so resonant in the like hard cut to the two of them fucking in parallel beds in a shitty motel and seemingly getting like no joy from it. There is not even this sort of like kink to.

• 1:24:42Speaker 04

  That we're, we're doing this together.

• 1:24:44Griffin Newman?

  Right. It almost feels like they're annoyed that they just can't afford separate rooms.

• 1:24:49David Sims?

  Right. Would you do that? It's so crazy that they do that. Never in a million. Someone you, I guess we're basically, these guys have essentially kind of just met, right?

• 1:25:02Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:03David Sims?

  Is that the idea?

• 1:25:04Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, basically, yeah.

• 1:25:05David Sims?

  But they don't know each other well.

• 1:25:06Griffin Newman?

  No, they were like, basically set up on a blind crime tape.

• 1:25:09David Sims?

  Is it kind of the hardened, these guys have probably both done time thing of like, I'm gonna fucking, I need to fuck someone. I've taken a shit in front of someone in a jail cell. I don't care. Like, it's just kind of like, right, I'm just gonna, yeah, let me ride.

• 1:25:23Speaker 04

  Privacy has been beat out of them in years.

• 1:25:26David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:25:26Griffin Newman?

  But they're getting no juice from it. Like, there's no spark to it.

• 1:25:29David Sims?

  Yeah, to the sex scene is the cut to them then watching TV.

• 1:25:33Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:25:34David Sims?

  That just rocks.

• 1:25:35Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:25:35Speaker 04

  And the Tonight Show, it's just such a funny thing. Like, are they gonna laugh once on this episode of the Tonight Show?

• 1:25:40Griffin Newman?

  Right, right.

• 1:25:41Speaker 04

  It's so good.

• 1:25:42Griffin Newman?

  The way that the Doughboys have turned pulling an autofocus.

• 1:25:47David Sims?

  Uh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:48Griffin Newman?

  Into a term, I, within a group of friends, pulling a Fargo is a joking term we throw around a lot.

• 1:25:55David Sims?

  Right, the old double, double bed hotel room.

• 1:25:58Griffin Newman?

  Just kind of like dispassionately have parallel sex and then watch TV together.

• 1:26:02David Sims?

  It's great that we meet the girls after and they are just so, like, chill and silly. They're so funny.

• 1:26:08Griffin Newman?

  I mean, it makes so much sense that they wrote this for Boosh M E, but the repetition of just kind of funny looking.

• 1:26:14David Sims?

  Just kind of funny, just kind of generally funny looking.

• 1:26:16Griffin Newman?

  Even more funny looking than most.

• 1:26:18David Sims?

  How would you describe him? Cause I, I would go on the teeth first. I'd be like, he's got kind of prominent teeth, but I guess it's kind of like a weird thing to say about someone.

• 1:26:25Griffin Newman?

  But they're right.

• 1:26:26Speaker 04

  I would start with the eyes. I'd be like, oh, he's got kind of like.

• 1:26:28David Sims?

  He's got these like steamed, shummy eyes that.

• 1:26:30Griffin Newman?

  But this is why.

• 1:26:31David Sims?

  You can't shake.

• 1:26:31Griffin Newman?

  This is why just kind of funny looking is the right thing because you're like, you ask 10 different people and they each would start with a different thing about him.

• 1:26:39Speaker 04

  Yeah. His lips are French in a way.

• 1:26:42Griffin Newman?

  Right. He's got so many different things that on any other person would be their only defining physical characteristic.

• 1:26:50Speaker 04

  So true.

• 1:26:51Griffin Newman?

  And you just combine it and you're just like, I don't know, he's just kinda funny looking.

• 1:26:55David Sims?

  Just kinda funny looking.

• 1:26:56Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:56David Sims?

  Um, well, yeah, what else happens?

• 1:26:58Griffin Newman?

  Why are you pointing at me?

• 1:26:59David Sims?

  Cause you had Fargo up.

• 1:27:00Griffin Newman?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:27:01David Sims?

  This movie is so perfectly constructed, I'm actually.

• 1:27:04Griffin Newman?

  Okay, so it's them in the car, then it goes to the first negotiation of the true code.

• 1:27:08David Sims?

  Yeah, the true code scene, right?

• 1:27:09Griffin Newman?

  Which is, right, I think just the depths of how pathetic he is.

• 1:27:14David Sims?

  Early.

• 1:27:14Griffin Newman?

  Right, and then the real failure of that scene is when he admits that the true code is already on it, even though they didn't ask for it.

• 1:27:23David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:27:24Griffin Newman?

  So he's probably gonna have to take the financial hit of not charging them for the thing that he thought he could talk them into. Like, there are all these little indignities that keep stacking up in his life.

• 1:27:35David Sims?

  And what I love about that scene is he, he, he makes this like totally phony, pouty, like, I'm a bad boy kind of expression at the end, you know, when the guy's pulling his checkbook out and he, he's looking down, Jerry's looking down and he, he's, he's like, you know, mock guilty, it's really, but he knows this was always the plan, it's great.

• 1:27:53Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, like, everyone sees through him at all times.

• 1:27:56David Sims?

  They put that on at the factory, I don't know what you guys are talking about.

• 1:27:58Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:59David Sims?

  Um, uh, okay, so he's a big loser.

• 1:28:02Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:28:03David Sims?

  And then, and then it's the kidnapping.

• 1:28:05Griffin Newman?

  You pretty quickly from there have the establishment of this previous scam he's running with the license plates.

• 1:28:12David Sims?

  Right, um, where he's what, borrowing money on cars that don't exist, right? That's what he's doing?

• 1:28:17Speaker 04

  Why wouldn't he just send in serial numbers of cars that are on the lot? I think I'm too dumb to understand this.

• 1:28:23David Sims?

  I'm possibly too dumb too, but I mean, the reason is probably because like that is a crime and would be easily discovered, I guess.

• 1:28:29Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:28:29David Sims?

  I don't really know though.

• 1:28:30Griffin Newman?

  I mean, it, it speaks to his confidence in something he does not have figured out in that the best I can make sense of his plan is just, he thinks he can stall them forever? And or get the cash.

• 1:28:44David Sims?

  I think it's more of a, I'll find the money somehow.

• 1:28:47Griffin Newman?

  And then return the money back to them eventually.

• 1:28:49David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:49Griffin Newman?

  When he's like, well, a year from now, I'll have $2 million. And then I go, oh, sorry. Um, but the plan.

• 1:28:55Speaker 04

  Wait, cause they are, they've, it seems like they've already fronted him the money. Cause the guy says, or I'll have to recall the loan.

• 1:29:01David Sims?

  They've given him the money.

• 1:29:02Speaker 04

  Jerry says, I got the money, the money came through.

• 1:29:05David Sims?

  And the, I, the assumption I feel like is that money is gone.

• 1:29:08Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:29:08David Sims?

  Right? Like, you got the money and it went wherever it's all going.

• 1:29:12Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:29:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:29:12Griffin Newman?

  That money went to pay off debts that are still not made whole.

• 1:29:17David Sims?

  Right, even though it was 300.

• 1:29:18Speaker 04

  What the fuck are the debts?

• 1:29:19Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:29:19Speaker 04

  Is he a gambler? Like, what, what is it? I'm dying to know.

• 1:29:23David Sims?

  That's my question. Ben, do you have a take?

• 1:29:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think he's such a bad car salesman. That he has not been bringing in any money for his family.

• 1:29:36David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:36Speaker 02

  Cause it's a commission based job.

• 1:29:38Speaker 04

  He would be fired though.

• 1:29:40Speaker 02

  No, well, but he's, it's his father in law's dealership. So he's kind of getting away with being one of the worst car salesmen of all time. And I really do think he's just like trapped and he's bad at this job. And that is basically how he has been generating money for his family.

• 1:29:59Griffin Newman?

  But I also think he keeps like metaphorically going all in at the poker table, right?

• 1:30:05David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:05Griffin Newman?

  Like he's sort of like, one smart move and I get myself like ahead.

• 1:30:10Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:30:10Griffin Newman?

  And it truly could be like this guy went to a casino one weekend and lost $10,000. And over 15 years, it has spiraled to 2 million.

• 1:30:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:30:20Griffin Newman?

  Like, I think it's just that he keeps doubling down on.

• 1:30:24David Sims?

  I'll get the money back.

• 1:30:25Griffin Newman?

  This is risky, but if it works, then I'm.

• 1:30:27Speaker 04

  He does, he does have some avenue of association with the criminal underworld. He knows Shep Proudfoot. I mean, I think there's a chance that he maybe rubbed elbows with some unsavory grifter guy who convinced him that he had this, you know, this get rich quick scheme. And it was not all the, all the way in the up and up and, and, you know, Shep Proudfoot was probably adjacent.

• 1:30:47Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:48Speaker 04

  Things went south and now Shep is his lifeline to maybe a new scheme to get out of.

• 1:30:52Griffin Newman?

  That is a really good take, cause this is the exact kind of guy who gets scammed and never recovers from it.

• 1:30:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, he is a rube.

• 1:30:59Griffin Newman?

  Right, he's a rube and that is a thing that would only emasculate him further on top of then having the financial anxiety of how do I make myself whole again?

• 1:31:08Speaker 04

  Cause I just don't think that he could have. Been bad at his job to the point where he secretly owes over half a million dollars. You know, at his father-in-law's dealership. It's like, if you suck that much at selling cars, like, that's gonna work, that, that's gonna, that's on the books, you know?

• 1:31:23David Sims?

  What? And I know the reason is, I should stop nitpicking, and who cares, but does he ever think about kidnapping the father-in-law?

• 1:31:32Speaker 04

  Well, who's gonna pay? Stan Grossman?

• 1:31:33Griffin Newman?

  That's the problem.

• 1:31:34David Sims?

  Maybe Grossman will do it.

• 1:31:35Griffin Newman?

  Maybe.

• 1:31:35David Sims?

  Maybe Grossman will free up the funds. But yeah, no, I don't know. It's just kinda like-

• 1:31:38Speaker 04

  It's like, can you imagine, like, trying to kidnap Clint Eastwood? It's just like, it's not gonna-

• 1:31:43Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:31:44Speaker 04

  It's not gonna work.

• 1:31:44David Sims?

  It's just so callous to, obviously, to be like, "Well, my final, final, final bargaining chip is I'm married to someone whose dad is rich. So I guess I can ransom her."

• 1:31:57Griffin Newman?

  I just think it's so great that when this movie starts out, you're literally opening with him proposing, you know, or confirming the deal to kidnap her and get the ransom money. We're already so deep into this scam he's been running with the cars.

• 1:32:12David Sims?

  Right, which is great. I mean, this is exactly what we, where we need to be. We need to be seven-eighths of the way into his doom. For him to be doing this.

• 1:32:20Griffin Newman?

  And he's preparing to pitch the parking lot thing. This guy's got three things that we know of going on at the same time.

• 1:32:27Speaker 04

  We're in act two on page one.

• 1:32:29Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:32:29Speaker 04

  You know?

• 1:32:29David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:32:30Speaker 04

  That's great.

• 1:32:30David Sims?

  And just, I'm sorry to just, but like, because it's connected.

• 1:32:34Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:32:34David Sims?

  This scene, I find this scene where he's revealed essentially to be kind of right.

• 1:32:40Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:32:41David Sims?

  In meaning, you know, where they're like, "This is a good deal. The financials of this do kind of make sense."

• 1:32:46Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:32:46David Sims?

  To be so satisfying to watch. I watch it a lot.

• 1:32:49Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:32:49David Sims?

  Because it's the perfect Coens thing, where like, there's this little note of triumph for him, where like, this guy, who clearly resents him for being such a loser and marrying his daughter, is like, "Yeah, I mean, this is a fine deal." And he's like, "Great, so give me the money." And they're like, "Why would we do that? We're not a bank."

• 1:33:05Griffin Newman?

  The most devastating moment, in a certain way.

• 1:33:07David Sims?

  Is you're like, he could've gotten away from this, and he just went to a fucking bank. Not that any bank would give him money, he's probably like, up to his ears in debt.

• 1:33:14Griffin Newman?

  But it's almost the most painful moment in the movie, when they go, "Well, I hope if you're not interested in pursuing the deal, you're cool with us just doing it without you." Like, dude, you just lost your finder's fee.

• 1:33:26David Sims?

  I think they're gonna give him the finder's fee. I do think they, well, maybe not. I don't know.

• 1:33:30Speaker 04

  What I love about that in that scene is he has nowhere to sit, you know? He's like, he has to sit on the edge of a chair facing the other way. It's just like, he is always at odds.

• 1:33:40Griffin Newman?

  But he's like, deep in one scam, he's setting up a crime and he's got a plan for like, a legit business.

• 1:33:47David Sims?

  He does, he has a way out, but he could never get a million dollars essentially to get out.

• 1:33:53Griffin Newman?

  No, and by the way, like, if he's smart, what he does is take the finder's fee from it and then go like, "Let me find more things like this. Let me build a relationship."

• 1:34:03David Sims?

  No, he's fucked. He's not that smart. I also think-

• 1:34:05Griffin Newman?

  No, I'm saying if he's smart, that's what he does.

• 1:34:06David Sims?

  I also think if he bought the parking lot, he would screw it up somehow.

• 1:34:09Griffin Newman?

  He would, of course he would.

• 1:34:10David Sims?

  He wouldn't like, do it right.

• 1:34:11Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:11Speaker 02

  Oh, he's just destined. He's just destined to be this way.

• 1:34:15Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:34:16Speaker 04

  He was always gonna be face down in a bed with two cops and knees in his back.

• 1:34:19David Sims?

  Uh huh, in, in his boxers, yes.

• 1:34:21Speaker 02

  I wanna say about the deal with the parking lot.

• 1:34:24Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:34:24Speaker 02

  He mentions, uh, if he makes it happen, that he wants to actually pull out on the ransom scheme.

• 1:34:32David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:34:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, cause he goes to Shep to try and cancel it.

• 1:34:34David Sims?

  He thinks he's gonna be okay.

• 1:34:36Speaker 02

  So he set it up in a way where he's like, "My backup?", even though his wife has already been kidnapped.

• 1:34:41David Sims?

  Right. Well, no, he doesn't know that yet.

• 1:34:44Griffin Newman?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:34:44David Sims?

  He goes home to her being kidnapped.

• 1:34:46Griffin Newman?

  It is so stupid of him to engage these two guys before he takes a shot at the parking lot. Like, that should be the backup option he only goes to.

• 1:34:56David Sims?

  I think he's in a lot of trouble.

• 1:34:57Speaker 02

  But he's so desperate.

• 1:34:58Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:34:58Speaker 02

  He's so desperate.

• 1:35:00David Sims?

  Well, parking lots kinda feature in this movie a lot. The most, I feel like the best shot in the movie is him trudging to his car.

• 1:35:07Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:08David Sims?

  And it's like, this lone car in the lot, surrounded by snow or whatever, right?

• 1:35:12Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:35:12David Sims?

  And then like, the scene with Carl having to pay four bucks for the long-term parking.

• 1:35:18Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:35:19David Sims?

  And then later, Carl shooting the other, Carl shooting the other parking guy. Like, parking actually pisses everyone off in this movie.

• 1:35:26Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:35:26David Sims?

  And does seem to be this kind of like, inescapable money train in Minneapolis.

• 1:35:31Griffin Newman?

  But that's also the, the moment that is so iconic, where he fucking loses it trying to scrape the ice-

• 1:35:36David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:35:36Griffin Newman?

  -off the windshield.

• 1:35:38David Sims?

  It's so good.

• 1:35:39Speaker 04

  I'm, I'm having a flash of that.

• 1:35:40David Sims?

  His dumb fucking hat with the flaps.

• 1:35:42Speaker 02

  Parking lot, Larry. Look at that parking lot.

• 1:35:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:35:45David Sims?

  No, that's true. That's right.

• 1:35:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:35:49Speaker 04

  So then I think he goes home before we skip the scene where he goes home and his dad is having dinner with them, which is such a great moment where he goes, dad's joining us for supper. And she's like, yeah. And you can just see he's just like, fuck, another miserable night.

• 1:36:00Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:00David Sims?

  And the kid just wants to go to McDonald's. They aren't drinking milkshakes, I'll tell you that.

• 1:36:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:36:06David Sims?

  What does he think they are doing? The kid does not seem like that bad a boy.

• 1:36:09Griffin Newman?

  No, no, no.

• 1:36:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, they're not smoking weed at McDonald's.

• 1:36:12David Sims?

  Yeah, like maybe they're like bumming one cigarette and like passing it around or something. I don't know what they're doing.

• 1:36:18Griffin Newman?

  Not drinking milkshakes is so funny though. Yeah.

• 1:36:23David Sims?

  So, yeah, what else? So then the kidnapping.

• 1:36:26Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:27David Sims?

  Which, look, I can quote this movie. I'm sure you're like this, Zach, in that like, it's like, I can quote this movie visually. You know what I mean? Like, I remember like scene, like shot transitions and like, you know, just like framing and stuff from this movie. I've seen it so many times.

• 1:36:43Speaker 04

  When Klaus Walter walks up the porch, it is one of the greatest terrifying and funny. I mean, it is so them and it just works on every level. And he kind of presses his face to like peer through the glare at her. And she's just watching dumbly, like, uncomprehending of what this person is doing. And it's not until the glass breaks that she realizes like, danger, idiot, get up. You know, it's so good.

• 1:37:07Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, just her knitting, watching the soap opera, starting to clock him and taking her time to react.

• 1:37:14David Sims?

  Just kind of being like, it can't be what I think it is.

• 1:37:16Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:17David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:37:18Griffin Newman?

  Did you guys notice that it's Bruce Campbell in the soap opera?

• 1:37:21David Sims?

  Yes, of course.

• 1:37:21Griffin Newman?

  And it is an actual soap opera that Bruce Campbell did that they licensed almost to mock him.

• 1:37:27Speaker 04

  I was wondering, I was like, this feels so authentic. The way the audio sounds and like the diet, it just feels so real.

• 1:37:34Griffin Newman?

  It was one of his earliest acting jobs that I think they, they did almost in, in the same way that Raimi likes to torture Bruce Campbell.

• 1:37:40David Sims?

  Now, intolerable cruelty has a soap opera thing too, right? But where they like made a fake soap opera. There's something with that.

• 1:37:48Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:37:48David Sims?

  Right? Where there's something on TV. I can't remember.

• 1:37:50Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:51David Sims?

  Uh, anyway.

• 1:37:53Speaker 04

  It's amazing in Fargo how many characters are watching television at all times.

• 1:37:57David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:37:57Speaker 04

  Or trying to watch television. It is a massive theme in this movie.

• 1:38:02David Sims?

  It's.

• 1:38:03Speaker 04

  Which I think lends itself to the opening title cards. You know, I think there is something about our addiction to these stories and to this kind of being fed information through a screen.

• 1:38:12David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:12Speaker 04

  It has to be intentional to some.

• 1:38:14Griffin Newman?

  Escapism thing of these people who are living these very quiet, controlled lives and dream of, right?

• 1:38:19David Sims?

  It's also so cold and this movie is so cold.

• 1:38:22Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:38:23David Sims?

  And anytime someone's outside, you're just like, go inside.

• 1:38:26Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:38:27David Sims?

  And like, and you, and the movie is communicating that to you. Like, it's hard to be outside.

• 1:38:31Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:31David Sims?

  And like, you wanna just be warm and you just wanna be in Marge's bed, watching like TV and talking about stamps. And like, anytime anyone's outside, it just looks so miserable.

• 1:38:40Speaker 04

  And it looks miserable in the cabin. They've got the, the oven open and you can see Jean's breath coming through the hood.

• 1:38:46David Sims?

  That cabin is tough.

• 1:38:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:38:49David Sims?

  Uh, it's not, that's not the nicest. White Bear Lake, I wonder, I mean, Minnesota has a lot of lakes, right? Famously, 10,000 or so.

• 1:38:56Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:38:57David Sims?

  Um, so the kidnapping, anything we want to say about the kidnapping apart from the.

• 1:39:00Griffin Newman?

  No, I mean, for how controlled and perfect it is, their ability to stage incredibly clumsy things without it feeling like hyper-precise, like slapstick comedy.

• 1:39:13David Sims?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:39:13Griffin Newman?

  Like, part of what's upsetting about the kidnapping and also unnerving about it is that it feels like sort of so mundane and messy.

• 1:39:21David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:39:22Griffin Newman?

  Uh, in, in all of their movements, but also like the shot sequencing and there being sort of weird amounts of space. There, there not being weirdly a sense of urgency to it as much as there was an urgency in her trying to like escape it. And I think she thinks these guys are there to just fucking kill her. Uh, they're being so slow and deliberate in their moves.

• 1:39:45David Sims?

  Yeah, yep, yep.

• 1:39:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, Peter Stormare having no concern for anything. You know, he pulls the mask off immediately.

• 1:39:51Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:52Speaker 04

  When he gets bit, you know, and he's, his concern shifts from like this felony I'm in progress on to I need to get ointment on my, on my.

• 1:40:00David Sims?

  I need Unguent.

• 1:40:01Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah, what the hell is Unguent?

• 1:40:03David Sims?

  Unguent is just a, a name for like a greasy substance, essentially, an ointment, you know, like it's, it's so funny that he uses that word. It's a very old-fashioned word. I don't know if the, if the Coens just think it's funny or if it's supposed to speak to his kind of like. You know, second language.

• 1:40:23Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:24David Sims?

  I need on, Gwent.

• 1:40:30Griffin Newman?

  David?

• 1:40:30David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:30Griffin Newman?

  This episode is brought to you by XYZ Films and the acclaimed new documentary Capturing Bigfoot.

• 1:40:36David Sims?

  Hmm.

• 1:40:37Griffin Newman?

  On October 20th, 1967, Roger Patterson captured 59 seconds of film showing a creature walking through the Northern California woods. I wonder if you can log that on Letterboxd?

• 1:40:47David Sims?

  It is an iconic video.

• 1:40:49Griffin Newman?

  Footage that became the most analyzed and debated in history. 59 years later, a reel of 16 millimeter film discovered in a safe changes everything. Capturing Bigfoot reveals the untold story behind the world's greatest mystery, told for the first time by Patterson's own son and the people who were there. This is a story about family legacy, broken friendships, and how far people will go to protect a secret.

• 1:41:11David Sims?

  Of course. You've got the classic, what they call Patterson Gimlin film. Everyone knows of Bigfoot out in the woods, like the famous Bigfoot picture. This has other stuff shot by him that no one's ever seen. That's what makes this movie different.

• 1:41:23Griffin Newman?

  But we're also talking brand new 4K scans of the original film taken from the Patterson family archives that some historians have called the best rendering of the footage ever seen.

• 1:41:32David Sims?

  I feel like we've all seen that footage as like grainy.

• 1:41:35Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:41:35David Sims?

  You know, that you see, you know, whatever. You see it in a documentary for two seconds. But this is restoring it and making it look much more clear.

• 1:41:42Griffin Newman?

  There's also a companion podcast, The Capturing Bigfoot Podcast, which goes deeper into the legend and lore of Bigfoot and the Patterson Gimlin film, featuring weekly episodes with experts in cryptozoology, urban legends, and filmmaking.

• 1:41:56David Sims?

  I'm something of an expert in cryptozoology.

• 1:41:58Griffin Newman?

  Well, of course. Yes. But that's more of a hobby.

• 1:42:01David Sims?

  Yeah. This podcast, Capturing Bigfoot Podcast, is hosted by the director of the film, Mark Evans, and it's available for free on YouTube and Spotify with exclusive episodes and content available on Patreon to members of the Capturing Bigfoot Society.

• 1:42:16Griffin Newman?

  Capturing Bigfoot is now available to rent or own on Amazon Prime Video. Learn more about Capturing Bigfoot at capturingbigfoot.com.

• 1:42:34Speaker 05

  Welcome to 215 Maple Drive. We just put this property on the market.

• 1:42:39Speaker 06

  Love the crown molding.

• 1:42:41Speaker 05

  Oh, wait until you see the walk-in closets and the bathroom tile.

• 1:42:45Speaker 06

  Does it have Verizon FiOS? You know, 100% fiber internet.

• 1:42:48Speaker 05

  No FiOS, but it looks like it's got cable. Let's check out the kitchen.

• 1:42:52Speaker 06

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• 1:42:55Speaker 05

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• 1:42:58Speaker 07

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• 1:43:36David Sims?

  So she gets kidnapped with the cars, the chase, right? Or is there anything in between the kidnapping and the murder?

• 1:43:45Griffin Newman?

  Um, I mean...

• 1:43:47David Sims?

  The thing in between is what I just mentioned, that Jerry essentially losing the lot.

• 1:43:52Griffin Newman?

  Right, but then also him coming home with the two bags of groceries and having the sort of processing, walking in.

• 1:43:58David Sims?

  Right, being like, "Right, it happened."

• 1:44:00Griffin Newman?

  They've done it, it happens. And you don't...

• 1:44:02David Sims?

  And then rehearsing the phone call, which is so good.

• 1:44:05Griffin Newman?

  So incredible. I think that's one of...

• 1:44:08David Sims?

  And fully, speaking to you, sociopathic.

• 1:44:12Griffin Newman?

  I think that was a Macy idea, I saw.

• 1:44:14David Sims?

  Oh, really?

• 1:44:15Griffin Newman?

  That he was like, "This is a fun beat."

• 1:44:17David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:44:17Griffin Newman?

  And yes, the moment where he's practicing it, you're like, "This guy's gotten the performance pretty close."

• 1:44:22David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:23Griffin Newman?

  And then the hard switch when he gets to the receptionist.

• 1:44:28David Sims?

  It's great.

• 1:44:29Griffin Newman?

  It's so good.

• 1:44:30David Sims?

  I also love the framing of that shot. We're not in the kitchen with him, we're like, kind of in the hallway, and we've got the banister in the foreground. And it's just like, it's voyeuristic, you know? We're just watching, I don't know, I love that choice.

• 1:44:41Griffin Newman?

  It's like the fucking taxi driver payphone scene.

• 1:44:45David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:45Griffin Newman?

  Where you're like, "You feel like you shouldn't be seeing this."

• 1:44:48David Sims?

  Get the camera away from this.

• 1:44:49Griffin Newman?

  You're seeing something uncomfortable and embarrassing and too intimate, yeah.

• 1:44:54Griffin Newman?

  And then that's one of the the cuts to black, I think fades to black is after, uh, yeah, I'll hold. And then it goes to-

• 1:45:04David Sims?

  And then we go to the the night driving, right?

• 1:45:06Griffin Newman?

  Well, then it cuts right to Paul Bunyan at night and the night drive.

• 1:45:11David Sims?

  Yeah, amazing. And this is like the biggest set piece of the whole movie, arguably, you know?

• 1:45:16Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:45:17David Sims?

  And and it's so, so well done.

• 1:45:21Griffin Newman?

  So we've gone with this argument in the past about the the Frances McDormand winning for lead, Willie M. Macy being nominated for supporting.

• 1:45:31David Sims?

  Sure.

• 1:45:31Griffin Newman?

  The actual affront is the Macy being nominated for supporting.

• 1:45:34David Sims?

  Yeah, that's not, McDormand is clearly the lead. It's just, it's just Macy is probably, I mean, I have him in lead, he's the lead. I I can sort of hear an argument for like everyone else is kind of supporting, but he's in a lot of the movie.

• 1:45:47Griffin Newman?

  He got, I believe he has 30 seconds more screen time than she does. I always question the way that people fucking stop watch these things.

• 1:45:54David Sims?

  Those stats are a little weird, right?

• 1:45:55Griffin Newman?

  But they at least have basically equal screen time, if not slightly more towards him. It obviously becomes her story.

• 1:46:02David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:03Griffin Newman?

  Uh, and she's the one who's sort of driving the plot. But I also think one of the things that's so interesting with the Coens is that very few of their movies are really driven by one character. They're almost always plotted either thematically or by an event. Like the event is sort of the thing you're following and then you're attaching yourself to different characters in the arc of-

• 1:46:25David Sims?

  I can think of a lot of counter examples to that.

• 1:46:28Griffin Newman?

  Lebowski's obviously character driven, like one guy.

• 1:46:31David Sims?

  Inside Llewyn Davis.

• 1:46:31Griffin Newman?

  Llewyn Davis's, True Grit, I would say, is with Maddie. Serious Man is. A lot of their crime movies, I guess, in particular.

• 1:46:39David Sims?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:46:39Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:40David Sims?

  Um, but, uh, what's your point about Macy? Like that he should have been nominated in lead? Where'd they, uh?

• 1:46:46Griffin Newman?

  No, it's just interesting that we're-

• 1:46:47David Sims?

  True, the cynical calculation of like-

• 1:46:49Griffin Newman?

  It's a cynical calculation.

• 1:46:50David Sims?

  He's not famous, let's do it.

• 1:46:52Griffin Newman?

  It was more that I'm just clocking, we're getting to the final shootout, which means, or what you described as the big-

• 1:46:58David Sims?

  The indie spirits put him in lead.

• 1:47:00Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:47:00David Sims?

  Basically, no one else even, the Globes didn't nominate him.

• 1:47:04Griffin Newman?

  And SAG put him in supporting.

• 1:47:05David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:47:05Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:06David Sims?

  Um, so, yeah, I mean, I think his nomination was like a mild and welcome surprise at the Oscars, where, because he was not a very well-known actor at that point. But obviously, he's so good in the film.

• 1:47:16Griffin Newman?

  More than anything.

• 1:47:17David Sims?

  But it does cost Buscemi his maybe like most obvious chance at an Oscar nod before Ghost World, which he's also-

• 1:47:24Griffin Newman?

  Which he's also stopped for. I just think he remains one of the most egregious, like, never nominated-

• 1:47:29David Sims?

  Take it up with the Academy.

• 1:47:30Griffin Newman?

  Guys, I write them a letter every day.

• 1:47:32David Sims?

  Okay.

• 1:47:32Griffin Newman?

  And they tell me to stop.

• 1:47:35Griffin Newman?

  But yeah, no, it's just fascinating to think about how deeply we've gotten to the movie and that we're getting, you're like at the big set piece.

• 1:47:42David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:42Griffin Newman?

  And she has still not been introduced.

• 1:47:44David Sims?

  True.

• 1:47:45Griffin Newman?

  That it is like 30 minutes on the dot after the big blow up.

• 1:47:50David Sims?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:47:50Griffin Newman?

  Um, yeah, this, this scene of like, once again, like clumsiness, like Buscemi trying to pull the move of flashing the money in the wallet.

• 1:47:59David Sims?

  So stupid.

• 1:48:00Griffin Newman?

  So unnecessary.

• 1:48:01David Sims?

  It took me so long to clock that that's what's happening.

• 1:48:04Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:48:05David Sims?

  Uh, and then the way the cop like flips the wallet shut.

• 1:48:09Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:48:09David Sims?

  Um, but yeah, I mean, but I think Buscemi just thinks that's the only way. But Buscemi's stupid. The stupidest thing he does, we don't see, which is that he brags to the guy in the bar that he killed people.

• 1:48:22Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:48:22David Sims?

  And like the way the guy describes what he was doing, like, you're like, I can exactly picture Carl like popping off and essentially being like, well, there's, there's a trail of dead people behind me that you don't want to fuck with me.

• 1:48:34Griffin Newman?

  But his stupid calculation he makes is the moment where the cop says, what's this? If Buscemi is savvy in any way, he goes, oh, sorry.

• 1:48:45Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:48:46David Sims?

  Uh, sure.

• 1:48:46Griffin Newman?

  Like, he acts like it was truly an accident, rather than like, he quadruples down. He keeps repeating, what if we just settle it here in Brainerd?

• 1:48:55David Sims?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:48:57Griffin Newman?

  And the guy is just not having it at all, and he's making it worse and worse.

• 1:49:00David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:49:01Griffin Newman?

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:49:02David Sims?

  I think there's no way out of it. They have a woman in the backseat.

• 1:49:05Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:49:06David Sims?

  Like, if she was in the trunk.

• 1:49:07Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:49:08David Sims?

  Do they get away with it? Do they basically apologize to the cop?

• 1:49:11Speaker 04

  I mean, he was still gonna get in trouble, because he's still gonna try and bribe this stupid fucking cop, and that cop was obviously not gonna have it. And he was gonna, he was gonna get, someone was gonna get shot, no matter what, whether she's in the trunk or in the backseat.

• 1:49:21Griffin Newman?

  This is what we keep circling back to. There are so many unforced errors in this movie, and yet, the characters are making errors on top of each other, where even if you're like, well, if they had just done this one thing differently, that's not accounting for the five things they did around it.

• 1:49:35David Sims?

  Yeah. I mean, if he just put the tags on the car.

• 1:49:38Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:49:39David Sims?

  Everything would have been different.

• 1:49:40Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:49:40David Sims?

  And that's the first thing he should have done.

• 1:49:42Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:42David Sims?

  It's crazy.

• 1:49:43Speaker 04

  He should have put the tags on the car.

• 1:49:45David Sims?

  Um, so they kill the cop. The thing I think about the most is the little spur of blood.

• 1:49:50Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:49:50David Sims?

  It's so good.

• 1:49:52Griffin Newman?

  Onto Buscemi's face.

• 1:49:53David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:49:53Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:54David Sims?

  Just the little, like, pathetic fountain.

• 1:49:56Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:57David Sims?

  Like, it's more than nothing, but it's not like an insane geyser. It's just this, like, I just think about it all the time.

• 1:50:04Speaker 04

  Well, I also always think about the way the cop falls out of frame.

• 1:50:07David Sims?

  The way, the way they, you see him for one second, his head covered in blood, but like, literally one second, yes.

• 1:50:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, he falls back on his knees away from the camera, and so it's sickening.

• 1:50:17Griffin Newman?

  We talk about in the Blood Simple episode, but they said so much of their, like, genesis of that movie is feeling like deaths in movies are always too clean. Like, even when they're bloody and messy, they're bloody and messy in the sort of, like, operatic way, and they're like, death is, like, really clumsy. And it, like, takes longer. Um, and you just have these sort of, like, odd embarrassments.

• 1:50:40David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:50:40Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. Um, but yes, how quickly they just get themselves into, like, a perfect knot of, well, now there's a dead cop, now there's a guy driving by, there's an eyewitness.

• 1:50:52David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:50:52Griffin Newman?

  There's, like, no way out of this. Without just-

• 1:50:57David Sims?

  More murder and insanity.

• 1:51:01David Sims?

  Yeah. They're kind of doing what William H. Macy's doing. They just kept digging deeper and deeper and deeper into-

• 1:51:06Griffin Newman?

  Yes, into trouble.

• 1:51:07David Sims?

  Right, and essentially a sort of like, we'll figure it out mentality. Uh, but yeah, the people see them, that the shot of the guy's face, like, you know, is so good. It looks like Louie Anderson. I always think about Louie- He does kind of look like Louie Anderson. He's got a big orange coat on or something. He's got like a bright coat on.

• 1:51:23Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:51:23David Sims?

  Um, and, uh, it's just, I mean, I just, again, just imagine being in the theater in 96. And like the shot and the cut to black.

• 1:51:35Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:35David Sims?

  And just that like wave of like laughter and craziness that must have gone through the audience. So like, what the fuck just happened?

• 1:51:41Griffin Newman?

  I feel like we talked about this, and David and I being a little, uh, younger than you, Zach, that like for both of us, we think our first exposure to the Coens was watching Billy Crystal edit himself into the Oscar montage this year into Fargo. And like, sitting in a room of grownups laughing at it and both being like, what is this movie? It's got like broad comedy tone and it's about murder. And I have a very similar memory of this movie playing in theaters in New York for so long. And constantly walking by when my parents would walk me to school, a theater that had the poster up and being so confused by the needlepoint poster.

• 1:52:23Griffin Newman?

  And being like, what is this movie that has this sort of like cutesy depiction?

• 1:52:27David Sims?

  What he did was-

• 1:52:28Griffin Newman?

  A crime?

• 1:52:30David Sims?

  Uh, he, he's the other cop.

• 1:52:32Griffin Newman?

  He's Lou, right?

• 1:52:33David Sims?

  He's Lou, yeah.

• 1:52:34Griffin Newman?

  Talking to, in, in that first scene, in the, the morning sickness.

• 1:52:38David Sims?

  And then he's talking to Buscemi in the car.

• 1:52:41Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 1:52:42David Sims?

  They're like talking to each other, yeah.

• 1:52:44Griffin Newman?

  He's playing pretty fast and loose with the narrative there.

• 1:52:46David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:46Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:47David Sims?

  And then it's back to him talking to Jerry Maguire and, you know, there's some great stuff here.

• 1:52:51Griffin Newman?

  All of that to say, like, our exposure to it was first, the pre-digested version of like, we all know how funny Fargo is. Versus, I wish I could have had the purity of being able to see this in theaters like opening weekend and being like, what the fuck is this? No one has ever done something like this before.

• 1:53:11David Sims?

  Um, well, it's a good movie. Uh, what happens after?

• 1:53:14Griffin Newman?

  Um, um, no, I basically, right, the body lying in the snow.

• 1:53:21Griffin Newman?

  Goes to-

• 1:53:21David Sims?

  Oh wait, we go to Marge.

• 1:53:22Griffin Newman?

  We go to Marge.

• 1:53:23David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:53:23Griffin Newman?

  We go to, her getting the call in bed, the camera-

• 1:53:26Speaker 04

  Prowler needs a jump.

• 1:53:27Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:53:27David Sims?

  Prowler needs a jump.

• 1:53:29Griffin Newman?

  But the ducks, the painting, supplies.

• 1:53:33David Sims?

  Um.

• 1:53:33Griffin Newman?

  The camera tracking over to them in bed and her being woken up by the camera.

• 1:53:37David Sims?

  The most, like, you know, incredible introduction to a character. First this.

• 1:53:41Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:42David Sims?

  But then her, the breakfast, you know, gotta have a breakfast.

• 1:53:44Griffin Newman?

  Breakfast is important. I gotta go.

• 1:53:46David Sims?

  Him being like, gotta have a breakfast is another acknowledgement of her pregnancy.

• 1:53:50Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:50David Sims?

  Like, I don't think he's just hitting that so hard because he's her loving husband. He's like, no, you need to eat. Like, you're pregnant.

• 1:53:56Griffin Newman?

  But he knows if he said it that way, she would push back on the idea that she's vulnerable.

• 1:54:00David Sims?

  Um, so, but then like, yeah, and then just, I'm not sure I a hundred percent agree with you on your police work there, Lou, where you're like, he's such an idiot, but she would never chew him out. She's being so nice about it. You know, just the, her whole approach. Her whole matter of factness about the homicide, this execution style deal. Like, the way she's talking about this horrible thing we just witnessed.

• 1:54:21Griffin Newman?

  Like, her, her sense of politeness does not override her doing the correct or responsible thing, right? She's not gonna defer to this guy out of being polite. She finds the most polite way to push back and explain her own theory. I also just love the sort of like, just get breakfast out of the way vibes, but also them having breakfast in like pitch black darkness. That feeling of like, when you are awake too early, doing a thing.

• 1:54:50David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:54:51Griffin Newman?

  As if you're like eating before like a red eye flight.

• 1:54:54David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:55Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:56Speaker 04

  I also like that, you know, she gets there, she hasn't seen the, the dead trooper.

• 1:55:01Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:55:01Speaker 04

  She just sees the two bodies there in the, by the upside down car, and she's, she's good. She already can like, put together exactly what happened.

• 1:55:08Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:08Speaker 04

  And she's, right, you know, we got a, we got a shooting over there, and then we got a drive by, and they come here, we get the execution type deal. Yeah, it's, she's great.

• 1:55:16David Sims?

  But then she has the little, and looks like a perfectly nice guy, right? She has the little aside where she's like- She's acknowledging that this is a tragic situation.

• 1:55:27Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:28David Sims?

  She's not blasé exactly, she's just even handed, or what like, she's just kind of like even tempered.

• 1:55:35Griffin Newman?

  But it's like what she's getting at with the last line, her last lines of the movie, which is just like, what could possibly?

• 1:55:41David Sims?

  Have been worth all this, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is, yeah, in a way like they should be, I mean, this is a cop killing. This is crazy.

• 1:55:51Griffin Newman?

  It's crazy. Yeah.

• 1:55:53David Sims?

  Yeah, and it's odd that she, she didn't have a relationship with the dead cop. Like, that is never acknowledged, you know, like, this is a tiny town, this is a small police community. You know, an officer is gunned down in cold blood and they don't spend any time talking about that.

• 1:56:08Griffin Newman?

  Although I guess it's basically he's from a neighboring precinct and got shot down and then the, the sort of like liminal space between the two cities.

• 1:56:17David Sims?

  Yeah, they might explain it.

• 1:56:20David Sims?

  But he wrote DLR, and that means D other plates.

• 1:56:26David Sims?

  And, you know, I guess she finds the call girls first, right? The first thing they find where she's like, oh, that's a good lead, is, is that like two guys checked into a motel with call girls.

• 1:56:38Griffin Newman?

  In a Sierra.

• 1:56:39David Sims?

  In a burnt umber Sierra.

• 1:56:41Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:41David Sims?

  A Sierra is an Oldsmobile, I had to check. I don't actually, I didn't actually know what it was. They say Sierra so many times.

• 1:56:48Speaker 02

  It was my first car.

• 1:56:49David Sims?

  Your first car was a Sierra?

• 1:56:51Speaker 02

  It was a Cutlass Sierra Oldsmobile, it was a hand down from my grandpa.

• 1:56:54David Sims?

  Burnt umber?

• 1:56:55Speaker 02

  It was not umber, it was a dark blue with a blue interior. How are the tags?

• 1:57:02Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:03Speaker 02

  Regular license plate.

• 1:57:04David Sims?

  Okay, good, thank God. Well, then that's the answer, Ben, Jesus. But how to drive this?

• 1:57:10Speaker 02

  It was a fantastic car.

• 1:57:12David Sims?

  Okay.

• 1:57:13Speaker 02

  I loved it and unfortunately got into an accident and it got totaled.

• 1:57:17David Sims?

  Oh, that is too bad.

• 1:57:18Speaker 02

  It drove great, it was a V6, it had some power to it. And it just was so purposely designed for like an old man in this really lovely way. It had like, uh, lights built into the, um, rear view mirrors so you could like, you know, look at your map.

• 1:57:36David Sims?

  Oh, very nice.

• 1:57:37Speaker 02

  Or it was also helpful for rolling a blunt in the car.

• 1:57:43David Sims?

  At night. That Sierra saw some blunts. Yes, it did. Um, yeah, uh, she interviews the ladies.

• 1:57:51Griffin Newman?

  Well, no, before that, you cut to Jerry meeting with the father in law and, uh,

• 1:57:56David Sims?

  And, uh, Stan Grossman loves.

• 1:57:58Griffin Newman?

  Strategizing the, uh, the ransom payoff.

• 1:58:01David Sims?

  Stan Grossman's a great character.

• 1:58:02Griffin Newman?

  So good.

• 1:58:03David Sims?

  That guy's, that guy's clearly a smart guy.

• 1:58:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, the smartest guy in the movie.

• 1:58:07David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:58:07Griffin Newman?

  In a way, that's exactly who Jerry wants to be, right? Like even more than he wants to be hard pressed now, like that's the guy he aspires to be. Who's just like solid as a rock, responsible, has the respect of other men.

• 1:58:21Griffin Newman?

  He doesn't need to be like the king of shit mountain.

• 1:58:24David Sims?

  No.

• 1:58:25Griffin Newman?

  Um, but that's what they bring up, like, uh, how's Scotty doing?

• 1:58:30David Sims?

  Right. And he's like, right, Scotty, yeah, I'll talk to him.

• 1:58:33Griffin Newman?

  And I think he is.

• 1:58:34David Sims?

  The scene where he tries to talk to him is so miserable.

• 1:58:36Griffin Newman?

  I think he's doing a fairly good job of keeping a brave face on it. And yet every single thing that Scotty's bringing up is clearly something that he hasn't considered until this moment. Where like Scotty's first question is, what do you think they're doing with her right now? And his response is nothing, these guys, they just want money, right? Which is him like knowing these guys are just waiting to be paid off.

• 1:59:00David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:59:00Griffin Newman?

  But yes, the more Scotty digs into it, the more he's like, you don't know these fucking guys. They could be doing anything to her.

• 1:59:07Speaker 04

  But I don't get the sense that that is really occurring to him. He doesn't, he doesn't seem to be that alarmed. He's more alarmed that Scotty could, could, you know, let things slip to his wife's friends. You know what I mean?

• 1:59:20Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:59:20David Sims?

  That's true. He actually is trying to maintain op sec.

• 1:59:23Griffin Newman?

  He also thinks that like Scotty is worrying over nothing. I think he believes what he's saying, which is stupid.

• 1:59:30David Sims?

  Right. Jerry always thinks he's in control of every situation that he's clearly lost total control of.

• 1:59:35Griffin Newman?

  He's like, these three people are gonna sit in a room together, watching TV until they get the check and they'll bring her back safely.

• 1:59:40David Sims?

  The only time he ever says anything is in the first scene where he says, I'm in a bit of trouble. Right. And then he won't go into it. But like those calls where the guy's on the phone being like, well, if you don't send me these numbers, I'm gonna, he's just like, I, yeah, a real shirt. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll fax it over to you know, like. Obviously, you can tell he's stressed out. He never says like, "God, what the fuck am I gonna do?"

• 2:00:00Griffin Newman?

  My favorite moment is when he goes like, "I sent them in the mail, they should be arriving." And the guy goes, "That may be so, but I'm letting you know."

• 2:00:09David Sims?

  I'm out of patience.

• 2:00:10Griffin Newman?

  If I don't receive them by tomorrow, I'm filing charges. Like, even if they're in transit and they'll arrive two days later, your luck has run out, your time has run out. And his response to it is still so contained.

• 2:00:22David Sims?

  Yeah, he's like, "Sure, sure, sure, sure."

• 2:00:23Griffin Newman?

  That is a moment where you'd expect them to give him another sort of like ice scraper meltdown.

• 2:00:29David Sims?

  Well, do a damn lot count. That's him melting down.

• 2:00:32Speaker 04

  No, but he does melt down after that, Griffin, because then we cut to that wide shot through the window and he grabs his keyboard.

• 2:00:38Griffin Newman?

  Oh, yes, yes, yes.

• 2:00:39David Sims?

  Yes, he does.

• 2:00:40Speaker 04

  I mean, he does break.

• 2:00:41Griffin Newman?

  You're right, but he stays calm on the phone.

• 2:00:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, yes.

• 2:00:45Griffin Newman?

  Right, he's still trying to confidence his way through it. Yeah.

• 2:00:51Griffin Newman?

  Right, so then, right, it's, uh, Norm comes to, uh, bring her lunch.

• 2:00:56Speaker 04

  You know, there was a scene that they filmed that they didn't put in the movie of Norm ice fishing. And they cut it out. Or so I have been told. I don't know if that's true or not, but, um...

• 2:01:07David Sims?

  That makes-

• 2:01:07Speaker 04

  I don't know why they would shoot it. I think it probably makes sense that we don't, we don't want-

• 2:01:11David Sims?

  They do say, like, "I thought you were going up ice fishing at Mill Lake or whatever." Like, yeah, like, and obviously he needs his night crawlers.

• 2:01:17Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:01:18David Sims?

  And that does, Norm is like the salt of the fucking earth.

• 2:01:21Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:21David Sims?

  And everyone does seem to respect the hell out of this guy. And then like the touch that he paints.

• 2:01:26Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:27David Sims?

  Is just like the perfect final touch to this character of like, he's got a sensitive, like, artist side.

• 2:01:33Griffin Newman?

  You know what I love too? When they're talking about, uh, I forget the name, but the competition of the other person who's in the running for the stamp.

• 2:01:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, I forget his name.

• 2:01:42Griffin Newman?

  They don't shit talk them. And even Marge is like, "Well, he's talented, but you're more talented."

• 2:01:49David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:01:49Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:50Speaker 04

  Like, you're better than them.

• 2:01:51Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:01:51Speaker 04

  They're good, but you're better than them.

• 2:01:52Griffin Newman?

  You're, right. It's the circle back to they're good, but you're better. She doesn't want to put the other person down. She just believes in him so deeply. And yeah, this notion that it's like, he comes and eats lunch with her every day.

• 2:02:06David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:02:07Griffin Newman?

  In the office.

• 2:02:08Speaker 04

  He knows everybody in the building.

• 2:02:09Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:10David Sims?

  Which does sort of speak to, maybe he used to work there, I don't know.

• 2:02:14Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 2:02:14David Sims?

  Uh, again, doesn't really matter. Um, they, all of their scenes are, there's welcome seasoning for her characters, well, obviously.

• 2:02:21Griffin Newman?

  And that's when Luke comes in with the lead of the two women.

• 2:02:23David Sims?

  Right, right.

• 2:02:24Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:24David Sims?

  And she talks to the ladies and they're so funny.

• 2:02:26Griffin Newman?

  One of the two who has no other-

• 2:02:27Speaker 04

  Wasn't circumcised?

• 2:02:29Griffin Newman?

  Yes, I think it's that one, who has no other screen credits.

• 2:02:32Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 2:02:32Griffin Newman?

  Was basically a dialect coach on this movie.

• 2:02:34David Sims?

  Right, that makes sense, like-

• 2:02:35Speaker 04

  The one on the left, it's gotta be the one on the left.

• 2:02:37Griffin Newman?

  Yes, yes. I think was like a local theater actress, but she was the one, I don't know if they hired her to do this first and then cast her in the role or vice versa, but she said like, in particular, McDormand credits her.

• 2:02:48David Sims?

  Larissa?

• 2:02:49Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:50David Sims?

  Cockernut.

• 2:02:50Griffin Newman?

  With cracking the voice.

• 2:02:51David Sims?

  Incredible name.

• 2:02:52Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:02:53David Sims?

  Um, and Melissa Peterman, who is the other one, is like a, you know, has been in a zillion things.

• 2:02:58Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:02:59David Sims?

  Uh, she was on Young Sheldon for a zillion years.

• 2:03:01Griffin Newman?

  Hey. Nice work if you can get it.

• 2:03:03David Sims?

  She's a main cast member.

• 2:03:05Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:05David Sims?

  Um, I don't know, she's recurring, I take it back.

• 2:03:08Griffin Newman?

  Well, it's huge difference.

• 2:03:09Speaker 04

  Interesting thing, these two, who are, you know, I presume sex workers, because, you know, um-

• 2:03:15David Sims?

  Yes.

• 2:03:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:03:16David Sims?

  At least part-time.

• 2:03:17Speaker 04

  Safe assumption, but they have a completely different attitude. These women seem untraumatized and like, like this all in all seems like a good experience that they have.

• 2:03:25David Sims?

  Yeah, they don't seem to think they're like in trouble for like, you know, patronizing these men or anything like that.

• 2:03:31Griffin Newman?

  The third woman is unquestionably a sex worker.

• 2:03:34Speaker 04

  And she is definitely like, does not love this, where he's like, you, you find this line of work interesting? And she's like, "The fuck you talking about?"

• 2:03:40Griffin Newman?

  Right, she's over the job.

• 2:03:42David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:42Griffin Newman?

  Every other time I watch this, I oscillate back and forth and thinking, are these two women sex workers or not?

• 2:03:48Speaker 04

  Uh, I think they are, cause he knows the place they can get laid. Or whatever, they're kind of like, they're girls who at least are like, you know, whatever, the bartender knows some gals that might be interested.

• 2:03:59Griffin Newman?

  They're so blasé about everything.

• 2:04:01Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:04:02Griffin Newman?

  There is like a lack of like, it's not just that they're not worn down by the thing in the way that the third woman is, but they also just don't kind of seem canny about anything. Like, they just feel like, they just go out and they do what they wanna do.

• 2:04:15Speaker 02

  I love when the one is like, "Go Bears."

• 2:04:18Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:04:18Speaker 02

  She's talking about her high school.

• 2:04:20Speaker 04

  Go Bears.

• 2:04:21Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:21Speaker 02

  She rocks.

• 2:04:22Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:23Speaker 02

  We also see them arrive at the lake house and Jeannie, uh, running around with the hood over her head.

• 2:04:29Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:30Speaker 02

  Hands tied behind her back.

• 2:04:31Speaker 04

  This is the scene where Carl, it really does show his hand that he is also a psychopath. You know, Gare is not laughing, Carl thinks this is the funniest shit in the world. I mean, that is just actual cruelty that he's displaying.

• 2:04:42Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:44Speaker 02

  Here's the thing I think the Coens are about.

• 2:04:45Speaker 04

  I think Gare doesn't find anything funny. No. Like, he, his brain is like, kind of like, there's just like-

• 2:04:51Griffin Newman?

  He has no personality.

• 2:04:52Speaker 04

  Right, there's nothing, there's no, nothing reading in there. That's why Carl cannot make conversation with him.

• 2:04:57Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:04:58Speaker 04

  Like, he is capable of having sex.

• 2:05:00Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:00Speaker 04

  So he's sort of like, has some like, animalistic functions.

• 2:05:03Griffin Newman?

  He also doesn't seem to enjoy it even as much as Buscemi does.

• 2:05:07Speaker 04

  He's like dead. This is why it's so interesting, when he cares, he seems offended that Jerry wants to kidnap his own wife. It's just, that's interesting.

• 2:05:15Griffin Newman?

  Well, I wanna circle back to this, cause I, I'm thinking about you calling that out, and I'm like, is he offended as much as he's just kind of intrigued by that being an interesting human behavior? You know?

• 2:05:28Speaker 04

  No, he's clearly disapproves.

• 2:05:30Griffin Newman?

  There's a value judgment on it, but I'm also like, the only thing that activates him is like, what he is perceiving as a level of cruelty that he seems unfamiliar with, if that makes sense. Like, this guy is desensitized to violence, and yet this sort of alarms him as just like, "That's fucked up."

• 2:05:50Speaker 04

  He's like, "What is the world coming to?"

• 2:05:51Griffin Newman?

  Right, everything else he's like, numb to, and that's sort of just like, he cannot ignore.

• 2:05:57Speaker 04

  Right. This is like his Tommy Lee Jones in No Country sort of like, conundrum, where he's like, "I don't even know if I belong in this world."

• 2:06:04Griffin Newman?

  I think it's also, like, one of the things that the Coen brothers are as good at as anyone else, is in almost every scene, every character is ostensibly sort of focused-

• 2:06:16Griffin Newman?

  Primarily on something other than their main like textual objective in the scene, if that makes sense.

• 2:06:22David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:06:22Griffin Newman?

  Like, I think they're really smart about like constructing environments for really interesting behavioral performances.

• 2:06:29David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:06:29Griffin Newman?

  Where even when Lou comes in with the lead, Marge is clearly like, you know, on her game.

• 2:06:36David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:37Griffin Newman?

  Seizing the opportunity, but also her priority is, I gotta finish this lunch.

• 2:06:42David Sims?

  Yeah, I'm eating these french fries.

• 2:06:44Speaker 04

  She needs her Arby's.

• 2:06:44Griffin Newman?

  Right, and the same with like them watching TV while Jerry's wife is running around. Uh, I, John Carroll Lynch in some interview said that the only direction he really remembers the Coens giving him was, uh, in one of the scenes, maybe it's this one.

• 2:07:00David Sims?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:07:00Griffin Newman?

  He was paying too much attention to what Lou and Marge were saying.

• 2:07:04David Sims?

  Uh-huh.

• 2:07:05Griffin Newman?

  And, uh, Joel came up to him and said like, "You don't care."

• 2:07:09David Sims?

  Mm.

• 2:07:10Griffin Newman?

  "Just finish your meal."

• 2:07:12David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:07:12Speaker 04

  I love that.

• 2:07:13Griffin Newman?

  You're not ignoring this, but like, this doesn't matter to you.

• 2:07:15David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:07:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, the guy shoveling his, his front side, his front driveway when the, when the cops interviewing him about the interaction at the bar with Carl, you know, it's like, that's his focus right now.

• 2:07:25Griffin Newman?

  That is a perfect example to me of a scene where when I am watching it, I'm like, this guy is the best guy in the movie.

• 2:07:30David Sims?

  Uh, he's so good.

• 2:07:32Griffin Newman?

  For these three minutes, he's transfixing.

• 2:07:33David Sims?

  Unbelievable, and of course, the most important thing in that movie is these guys who are wearing fucking space suits.

• 2:07:40Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:07:40David Sims?

  Being like, "It's getting colder," like, like, "It's going to be colder tomorrow." They had the weather convo with like, "Oh yeah, there's a front coming in." I'm like, "Guys, it looks like it's minus 40 degrees right now."

• 2:07:51Griffin Newman?

  You never get a clear look at his face. He looks like fucking Kenny McCormick. He is so naturalistic that it almost feels like they like hidden cameraed an actual citizen. This guy I dug in a little bit is like a Minnesota theater legend who started like the most reputable theater company.

• 2:08:07David Sims?

  Oh, nice.

• 2:08:08Griffin Newman?

  But I think his only other one, one other film credit? But I think was sort of the activation point for a lot of the local actors they hired in the film. It just kills this one scene.

• 2:08:18David Sims?

  He kills it.

• 2:08:19Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:19Speaker 02

  So I called it in. Like, like, his story, it's like, he's giving this, like, valuable, like, he's like a witness.

• 2:08:27David Sims?

  It's the most important, like, piece of information.

• 2:08:30Speaker 02

  But I love that.

• 2:08:30David Sims?

  He cracks the whole case.

• 2:08:31Speaker 02

  And he gets through it, and he's like.

• 2:08:33David Sims?

  So I called it in, the guy's like, oh, it's probably nothing, anyway. I guess it'll be cold here soon, in this fucking frozen hole we live in.

• 2:08:40Speaker 02

  It's almost presented as boring, kind of.

• 2:08:42Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:08:43Speaker 02

  Like, a boring story.

• 2:08:44Griffin Newman?

  But like, when the two women at the bar won't stop harping on how funny looking Busemi was.

• 2:08:49David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:50Griffin Newman?

  It's like, well, but they also had, like, a very intimate experience with him.

• 2:08:53David Sims?

  This guy's also like, yeah, he's just kind of fucking funny. I mean, what they're trying to say is, like, he looks like a little weasel. Like, what do you want from me?

• 2:08:59Griffin Newman?

  How do you define this guy, other than that, he is unusual? If he walked into a room, you would immediately clock.

• 2:09:04David Sims?

  And I want to be clear, I think Steve Buscemi's hot.

• 2:09:07Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:09:07David Sims?

  He has been styled to look like a weasel. It's just that you can get that guy to, you know, to a weasel faster than some actors.

• 2:09:14Griffin Newman?

  Busemi, I cite a lot as one of the prime examples of, like, people who are cast to be ugly in movies. If you see them in person, you're like, they are so striking.

• 2:09:23David Sims?

  Striking and good-looking guy.

• 2:09:24Griffin Newman?

  Because anyone who registers on camera is, like, innately kind of captivating-looking, even if they're unconventional.

• 2:09:30David Sims?

  But if you see him in, what's that movie he made when he was really young that's, um?

• 2:09:34Speaker 02

  Trees Lounge?

• 2:09:35David Sims?

  Well, he's, no, he's amazing in Trees Lounge, but he's obviously playing, playing kind of a rough customer in Trees. That guy's had a couple of drinks over the years, I don't know if you noticed that about him.

• 2:09:43Griffin Newman?

  But like, New York Stories, he's like.

• 2:09:45David Sims?

  New York Stories is an example, but fuck, what's it, In the Soup, the movie with, um, Seymour Cassell.

• 2:09:51Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:51David Sims?

  Great little movie, like, he's so cute in that movie.

• 2:09:53Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:09:53David Sims?

  He's adorable.

• 2:09:54Griffin Newman?

  Yes. Um, but it's right, what they're really speaking to more than anything is, like, look, he doesn't look like anyone else. He is unique.

• 2:10:01David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:10:02Griffin Newman?

  And also, this guy's energy is just weird. It's what you said, he's just like, there's something unsettling and weasely about this guy.

• 2:10:09David Sims?

  Yes. Ben, you keep coming in and out of the Zoom and it always jumps, scares me. It's so funny. Um, no one's watching the Zoom, obviously. So it's just me that cares about this. So we're gonna cut that out of the podcast, cause who cares?

• 2:10:21Griffin Newman?

  Then keep it in double it.

• 2:10:22David Sims?

  It's just me that cares about this. So we're gonna cut that out of the podcast, cause who cares?

• 2:10:28Griffin Newman?

  Also, if you could edit in a little bit of ice clinking, it feels like it's been a while. Maybe it's another good moment to place it in. No, thankfully it's melted.

• 2:10:34David Sims?

  After this is Mike Yanagita.

• 2:10:36Griffin Newman?

  But we have it on the soundboard.

• 2:10:37David Sims?

  Do we have more on Mike Yanagita?

• 2:10:39Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, I got an hour to do it.

• 2:10:40David Sims?

  Well, we're not gonna do an hour, but, but do we have more on Mike Yanagita that we wanna explore?

• 2:10:44Griffin Newman?

  I mean, Steve Park at this point in time was most known for Do the Right Thing and In Living Color.

• 2:10:50David Sims?

  Yes.

• 2:10:51Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:10:52David Sims?

  He's great in Do the Right Thing.

• 2:10:54Griffin Newman?

  Yes. He talks about after this, he did a guest arc on Friends, experienced an incident of like absurd racism behind the scenes, wrote an op ed letter about it that I think was published in the LA Times in 1997.

• 2:11:10David Sims?

  Uh, sure.

• 2:11:10Griffin Newman?

  And says that he was like soft blackballed from the industry for a number of years. And you look and like the credits dry up for a while.

• 2:11:17David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:17Griffin Newman?

  Which is absurd because you watch this and you're like, this guy should have become the single most in demand character actor for the next 10 years.

• 2:11:24David Sims?

  He's so funny. He's so good.

• 2:11:26Griffin Newman?

  He's kind of on ice and it takes until the mid 2010s that people start being like, why does no one fucking hire that guy? Like it's part of the persistence of Fargo is I think when people re-watch it, they're just like, no one's using this dude? And obviously the Coens use him again really well in Serious Man.

• 2:11:44David Sims?

  Uh, they do, yes.

• 2:11:45Griffin Newman?

  Right. And then the final segment of French.

• 2:11:48David Sims?

  I'm embarrassed to say that I am just now putting together that that's him.

• 2:11:51Griffin Newman?

  That's him. He's the dad of the student. Yes.

• 2:11:54David Sims?

  I did not realize that.

• 2:11:55Griffin Newman?

  And also we were.

• 2:11:56David Sims?

  I thought you were making like a weird joke when you said he, when you quoted that line from Serious Man. But yeah, okay, gotcha.

• 2:12:01Griffin Newman?

  He's, he's like the secret sauce of the final segment of French Dispatch, too.

• 2:12:05Speaker 04

  Your favorite movie.

• 2:12:06Griffin Newman?

  A movie I like a tremendous amount, but he's like transcendentally good in it.

• 2:12:10Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:12:10Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:12Speaker 04

  It's weird to me that he didn't realize that he was funny in that scene and that, that when Ethan told him that that scene slayed, he was like, but it's so sad.

• 2:12:19David Sims?

  I think he's, he's in that character, right? He's like, I'm playing this like truly sad guy who's.

• 2:12:26Speaker 04

  Well, I guess the question is just even.

• 2:12:27Speaker 04

  He's explosively crying, saying, you're such a super lady. Like, that's funny. Yeah. No, I'm not with you on that. He's such a super lady, like.

• 2:12:37David Sims?

  I think he is trying to.

• 2:12:37David Sims?

  Well, I guess my question is, does Stephen Park know he's lying? I guess he probably was told like, this is not true.

• 2:12:43Speaker 04

  That's a great question.

• 2:12:44David Sims?

  I don't actually know.

• 2:12:47Griffin Newman?

  I think he's trying.

• 2:12:48David Sims?

  Does it affect your performance?

• 2:12:49Griffin Newman?

  To play the guy with a psych, a level of psychological realism, even though it's in a weird tone and the language is obviously so specific. And there's no way to say that without sounding a little goofy. I think he's trying to avoid being condescending to the character.

• 2:13:03David Sims?

  Yeah, he's great. I mean, he does a great job.

• 2:13:05Griffin Newman?

  His mind, he's like, I'm not trying to make this scene funny.

• 2:13:09David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:09Griffin Newman?

  But of course, the sadder he plays it, the funnier it gets. Like it is that, you, you always talk about the fucking interview you had with Christoph Waltz promoting Big Eyes. Where you were like, so you play a bad guy in this movie.

• 2:13:22David Sims?

  And he's like, I might disagree with you on that point. And I was like, Jesus, I have 20 minutes with you. We're gonna fight about whether your fucking villain character is bad.

• 2:13:28Griffin Newman?

  And you had this contentious standoff, but you're like.

• 2:13:30David Sims?

  No, the problem was that 10 minutes in, he was like, yeah, you're probably right. And I was like, well then why'd you fight me on it, Waltz?

• 2:13:38David Sims?

  He was like a cat playing with a mouse.

• 2:13:40Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:40David Sims?

  I was just this tired little guy, you know, with a little notepad and he was clearly just like, I'm gonna fuck with this guy.

• 2:13:46Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:47David Sims?

  Anyway.

• 2:13:48Griffin Newman?

  I ju, I just think, right, like he is a guy who is innately funny.

• 2:13:52David Sims?

  Stephen Park.

• 2:13:53Griffin Newman?

  Right. And like has a comedy background and knows how to be funny. And they probably cast him for that reason where they're like, if this guy plays it straight, it will still be funny. Versus hiring a dramatic actor who might just make it uncomfortable.

• 2:14:05David Sims?

  It's a scene I sometimes struggle to watch.

• 2:14:07Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:07David Sims?

  It is so uncomfortable.

• 2:14:08Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:14:09David Sims?

  It is sad. The way she reacts to, not before he's crying, to him moving next to her.

• 2:14:16Griffin Newman?

  That is the roughest moment in the scene for me. It's like, it gets so much worse and then it gets even worse in retrospect when you find out he was lying. And yet, the absolute pit of despair.

• 2:14:29David Sims?

  The flimsiness of him being like, how about I sit next to you and her being like, oh, I, you know, wouldn't, you know, I can then have to turn to look at you.

• 2:14:36Griffin Newman?

  Just immediately a bad move. She's going out of her way to try to find the most polite reasoning for why she's putting a wall down.

• 2:14:45Speaker 02

  The thing too, that would like with finding out later, it's so insane that he is dressed up and wore a suit. There's something about that to me that like stuck out on this.

• 2:14:55David Sims?

  But she's dressed up to, like, they are, I feel like they are kind of like, well.

• 2:15:00Speaker 04

  They're at the Radisson.

• 2:15:00David Sims?

  You want to dress up for the Radisson?

• 2:15:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I guess it's the Radisson, yeah.

• 2:15:04David Sims?

  But he is living with his mom, so it's like tough to imagine him like at home.

• 2:15:08Speaker 02

  Like, putting on a suit.

• 2:15:09David Sims?

  Putting on the suit.

• 2:15:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15:11David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:11Speaker 02

  It makes it so much more sad for me.

• 2:15:13David Sims?

  How old is Marge? Is she like 32? Like, well, how old is she? Like, she's not that old.

• 2:15:19Speaker 04

  I'm guessing 36 is what the number that I like come to in my head, but I don't know. That might be too old.

• 2:15:26Speaker 04

  Well, you know what's really interesting though, is in the phone call with her friend, where she's recounting the, the encounter with Mike, her friend describes, um, that he was really pestering her, meaning the, the woman that Mike said was his wife.

• 2:15:38Griffin Newman?

  Yes, yes.

• 2:15:39Speaker 04

  And it's like, that is, back in 1987, they didn't call it what it was.

• 2:15:44David Sims?

  Right, that, yeah, he was being fucked up, right.

• 2:15:46Speaker 04

  He was stalking her. And they, they used their Minnesota nice, yeah, really bothering her, really pestering her. And it's like, dude, what we're seeing is the first step of Mike stalking Marge.

• 2:15:55David Sims?

  Possibly getting kind of obsessed with her.

• 2:15:57Griffin Newman?

  And the fact that he's undeterred by the fact that he knows she's married to a guy he also knows and is pregnant.

• 2:16:04David Sims?

  Seven months pregnant.

• 2:16:05Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:16:05David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:06Griffin Newman?

  Right, like it is the hyper fixation.

• 2:16:08David Sims?

  Why does she?

• 2:16:09Speaker 04

  There's a whole nother movie here. I mean, there's a whole fascinating movie with Mike and Agnes stalking pregnant Bart.

• 2:16:14David Sims?

  Right, like he calls her because he saw her on television.

• 2:16:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:16:17Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:16:18Speaker 04

  Which is also so great, well, how the heck are ya? It's like such an insanely obnoxious question to ask at 10:45 at night.

• 2:16:25Griffin Newman?

  Yes, and also when you're in the middle of like fucking investigating a triple homicide.

• 2:16:31Speaker 04

  So 96, Frances McDormand was 39.

• 2:16:35David Sims?

  Right, right. So when she made the movie, she's about 38 or whatever. Yeah, yeah, that tracks. She's in her late 30s.

• 2:16:40Griffin Newman?

  Right. About 20 years since they've all graduated.

• 2:16:42David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:16:44David Sims?

  So, but, yes, it's not that meeting Mike makes her kind of reevaluate that first interview she did with Jerry. It's hearing on the phone that he, you know, lied to her. That does seem to spur her to go back to Jerry and kind of press him a little harder.

• 2:17:01Griffin Newman?

  And I think in my-

• 2:17:02David Sims?

  And Jerry's a bad liar. Mike's a better liar than Jerry.

• 2:17:05Speaker 04

  Jerry is the worst liar.

• 2:17:07Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:07David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:17:07Speaker 04

  And it's also interesting, she, she does go back and say, how do you know? But she doesn't seem to clock that he's a liar until he just completely disintegrates in that scene.

• 2:17:15David Sims?

  He disintegrates under very little pressure.

• 2:17:18Speaker 04

  She wasn't like, I think this guy lied to me. You know what I mean?

• 2:17:21David Sims?

  Yes. She's initially basically just like, well, maybe the car went missing and you didn't clock it essentially.

• 2:17:26Griffin Newman?

  So after the Mike scene on this watch, I went back, rewound and rewatched the first Jerry Mard scene. Cause I was like, I now wanna see what she wasn't picking up on with him. And I think it's less that Mike makes her realize he could have been lying. And more that Mike kind of reminds her that everyone in this culture is putting such a performative layer on type of all of their social interactions.

• 2:17:52David Sims?

  Right. Yeah.

• 2:17:52Griffin Newman?

  That she's just like, well, everyone's lying all the time.

• 2:17:56David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:56Griffin Newman?

  I need to like, look deeper into their personality and the circumstances of their life. Cause even when she goes in to see Jerry for the second time, she clocks the photo of his wife on the, on the desk. She's just like, not really considering all the angles of who he is as a guy versus what he's saying to her. And she's obviously not seeing him as a suspect the first time. She's just like, there are so many disparate elements here and I'm just trying to trace them. Where the fuck did the cars come from? Right?

• 2:18:22David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:22Griffin Newman?

  Um, and in the first scene, he's not a good liar, but the only thing he really fucks up is he takes like 10 seconds to answer one question. There's the moment, I'm trying to remember what the question is, where she asks him something and he just locks in eye contact with her, kind of pleasantly smiling for like 10 seconds.

• 2:18:42David Sims?

  It's because she says Brainerd.

• 2:18:44Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:18:45David Sims?

  And, and he knows because he's already had the conversation with Carl, who said, three people in Brainerd.

• 2:18:49Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:18:50David Sims?

  Right, blood has been shed, Jerry.

• 2:18:52Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:18:52David Sims?

  Blood has been shed.

• 2:18:53Griffin Newman?

  And he's doing the math of trying to decide, how much do I pretend I know?

• 2:18:57David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:57Griffin Newman?

  How much can I get away with? How dumb can I play here?

• 2:19:01David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:01Griffin Newman?

  And even so, she kind of takes him on face value because I think, once again, she lives in a world where everyone is kind of putting on airs all the time.

• 2:19:09David Sims?

  No, I, I hear ya.

• 2:19:10Griffin Newman?

  They're always sort of covering their real feelings and masking them.

• 2:19:13David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:14Griffin Newman?

  The second time, he so immediately drops the cover.

• 2:19:17David Sims?

  And he's so fucked anyway at that point. Like, he is like, right.

• 2:19:20Griffin Newman?

  And she doesn't know how deeply he's involved in all of this, but knows he's covering up something and it might help her get to it, that the second she starts pushing him and he starts being like, I don't appreciate your rudeness. That's what really triggers her in my mind is her being like, if this guy's dropping the politeness this quickly, he's 10 times guiltier than I thought.

• 2:19:42David Sims?

  Okay, now, here's the thing.

• 2:19:43Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:19:44David Sims?

  She, she, yes, she busts William H. Macy wide open.

• 2:19:47Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:19:47David Sims?

  And he runs away. He's fleeing the interview.

• 2:19:49Griffin Newman?

  Right, right. He thinks he can just drive away.

• 2:19:52David Sims?

  And that means that, yes, that-

• 2:19:54Speaker 04

  You can. He's not under arrest.

• 2:19:55David Sims?

  No, he's not, but he is fleeing the interview.

• 2:19:57Griffin Newman?

  But that's also, that immediately makes him look, even a hundred times more guilty.

• 2:20:01David Sims?

  That doesn't get her to the cabin.

• 2:20:03Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 2:20:03David Sims?

  And there's things that happen in this movie that we don't see.

• 2:20:06Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:20:06David Sims?

  They kill his wife.

• 2:20:08Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:08David Sims?

  We don't, ah, she starts screaming, you know?

• 2:20:10Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:11David Sims?

  Like, that's, that's the end of that. We never see it.

• 2:20:13Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:20:14David Sims?

  We don't know how that transpired.

• 2:20:15Speaker 04

  In rewatching it this time, this was the first time, I can't believe I've seen this movie countless times, it was the first time I noticed the torrent of blood on the stove.

• 2:20:23David Sims?

  It's-

• 2:20:23Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:23David Sims?

  It's awful.

• 2:20:24Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:20:25David Sims?

  And like, everything disintegrates off-screen essentially, you know what I mean? Like, much like in the movie They Pull a No Country.

• 2:20:31Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:32David Sims?

  Of just like, you can figure it out.

• 2:20:34Griffin Newman?

  Well, it's, I feel like they talk about this, but their process of writing together, they're like, if the idea of writing a scene doesn't seem exciting to us-

• 2:20:42David Sims?

  They just move on.

• 2:20:43Griffin Newman?

  Then we just don't need to do it in the movie.

• 2:20:44David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:20:45Griffin Newman?

  Then like, what's the next scene that's more interesting and how do we get whatever information we need across? In a different context?

• 2:20:50David Sims?

  She doesn't find them because of Macy. She finds them because she essentially is like, well, before I leave, I'll just kind of drive around those lakes that that guy mentioned.

• 2:21:00Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:00David Sims?

  From the bar.

• 2:21:01Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:21:02David Sims?

  And she just fucking drives around and then she sees a burnt sienna.

• 2:21:05Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:05David Sims?

  And that's it.

• 2:21:06Griffin Newman?

  Right, and you have that moment.

• 2:21:07David Sims?

  It's the most like sort of caveman detective work.

• 2:21:10Griffin Newman?

  Is it Lou over the radio who's like, Margie, be careful? And you do feel that sense of just like, is she really just gonna fucking pull up to the driveway?

• 2:21:18David Sims?

  Yes.

• 2:21:19Speaker 04

  This is the moment where her pregnancy like becomes a story point.

• 2:21:22Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:21:23Speaker 04

  It's like, you should not, you are the last person that should go like storming into this remote place with murderers.

• 2:21:30Griffin Newman?

  Cause he says like, we'll send a couple cars over.

• 2:21:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:21:33Griffin Newman?

  And she's just like, I can't blow this.

• 2:21:36David Sims?

  Uh, yes, and she, she does a great job. And she fucking shoots him in the leg and like gets him. I mean, she, she does crush it.

• 2:21:43Speaker 04

  Shoots him, it, it's amazing. The framing is the same as when that, that man in the red jersey goes running into the tundra away from the upside down car.

• 2:21:51Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:21:52Speaker 04

  And now it's Carl.

• 2:21:53Griffin Newman?

  It's the daytime version.

• 2:21:54Speaker 04

  Position, running at the same angle.

• 2:21:56Griffin Newman?

  The exact same movement. And Carl goes for the kill shot and she does not. She shoots him in the leg. It's a skill shot. She like nails it. You see her take her time, line it up.

• 2:22:07David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:07Griffin Newman?

  Fire one bullet.

• 2:22:08David Sims?

  And she fires twice.

• 2:22:09Griffin Newman?

  Does she?

• 2:22:10Speaker 04

  She misses the first shot.

• 2:22:11Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:22:11David Sims?

  Missed the first shot.

• 2:22:12Griffin Newman?

  But she basically hits him.

• 2:22:13David Sims?

  It's pretty implausible that she hits him at all. She's like shooting with like a 29 revolver or something.

• 2:22:16Griffin Newman?

  It's another thing that like belies that she is in fact.

• 2:22:19David Sims?

  She's a little magical.

• 2:22:20Griffin Newman?

  But, but also that she's like fucking good. Right? You're like, this is someone who's gone through like insane fucking firearm training and has like spent time at a shooting range to nail that shot even in two. And also she's not trying to kill him. She's trying to incapacitate him, which she does.

• 2:22:35David Sims?

  She gets him.

• 2:22:35Speaker 04

  And then she, you know, off camera, goes out on the lake, cuffs him.

• 2:22:39Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:39Speaker 04

  Brings this wounded man back to her car, takes him into custody and drives him into town.

• 2:22:44Griffin Newman?

  Seven months pregnant.

• 2:22:45Speaker 04

  It's awesome.

• 2:22:46Griffin Newman?

  And we don't need to see any of that.

• 2:22:47David Sims?

  I just solved the murder of fi- five people? Five? Six?

• 2:22:52Speaker 04

  Well, there are six people killed in the movie, five that she knows of.

• 2:22:55David Sims?

  Right, so the five or the three, you know, the, the two bystanders and the state trooper.

• 2:22:59Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:23:00David Sims?

  The, the poor guy at the parking garage that Buscemi shoots.

• 2:23:03Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:03David Sims?

  Harvey Presnel, who Buscemi, and then, and then the wife.

• 2:23:06Griffin Newman?

  Oh, so I guess that's seven.

• 2:23:07David Sims?

  So seven.

• 2:23:08Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:08Speaker 04

  Seven. I forgot about the parking attendant.

• 2:23:10David Sims?

  Everyone forgets about the poor parking attendant.

• 2:23:12Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:13David Sims?

  Who just was one parking attendant too many for Carl, I feel like, you know what I mean?

• 2:23:18Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 2:23:18David Sims?

  Because like the thing with Carl, we didn't mention, of course, that like when they shoot each other, which rocks so much, like, you know, uh, it's just, you know, open the fucking gate, you know, it's just him doing that where it's like, the guy could probably just open the gate, but clearly like the guy's like, huh? And Carl's like shooting him.

• 2:23:31Griffin Newman?

  It's the moment.

• 2:23:32Speaker 04

  I bet the guy said like, buddy, are you okay?

• 2:23:35David Sims?

  That's what got him shot.

• 2:23:36Griffin Newman?

  It is the moment in every rewatch.

• 2:23:38David Sims?

  Look at my fucking face.

• 2:23:39Griffin Newman?

  Where I get so.

• 2:23:40David Sims?

  Ali square.

• 2:23:42Griffin Newman?

  Actively annoyed about Busemi being robbed of the supporting actor nomination. Cause I'm just like, him being able to play peak Busemi irritation.

• 2:23:51David Sims?

  Yes.

• 2:23:52Griffin Newman?

  While also playing the like, I cannot talk. I am bleeding out.

• 2:23:57Speaker 04

  Enters the cabin and he's like, huh? Get a load of me, right?

• 2:24:00Griffin Newman?

  It's so good.

• 2:24:02Speaker 04

  And the way he walks out where he kicks the door open and then stumbles on the step as he's like going down into the yard. It's, it's amazing.

• 2:24:10Griffin Newman?

  The indignity of him trying to get the paper towels to cover up, to stop the bleeding and having the weird scrap stuck to his face. With the pattern on it, but I'm like, in that scene with, um, uh, with Peter Stormare. I'm like, he just doesn't cheat at all in terms of how limited this guy's jaw would be at this moment. Like.

• 2:24:33David Sims?

  How do you split a car, you dummy?

• 2:24:35Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:24:37David Sims?

  Dummy.

• 2:24:37Griffin Newman?

  And the feeling that like, not only can this guy barely speak, but the more he talks, the more pain he's in. And yet he's so annoyed, he's gonna keep fucking monologuing. And you see like his eyes going bloodshot as like, the longer he's fucking getting to this philosophical argument that he deserves the car.

• 2:24:56David Sims?

  Ali square.

• 2:24:57Griffin Newman?

  The more he's like going white with pain.

• 2:24:59David Sims?

  Yes. No, it's, it's wonderful. He never is, he's not even mad that he killed her.

• 2:25:04Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 2:25:05David Sims?

  No.

• 2:25:05Griffin Newman?

  He doesn't care. He just wants the fucking car.

• 2:25:07David Sims?

  Just wants the car.

• 2:25:08Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:25:09Speaker 04

  You know what else we didn't talk about is at this point, he's already buried the money and put the world's weakest little marker. That is obviously not going to be there tomorrow.

• 2:25:17David Sims?

  It'll be like covered with snow immediately.

• 2:25:20Griffin Newman?

  Another. Horrible plan. Another just like poorly thought out.

• 2:25:25David Sims?

  In the middle of nowhere.

• 2:25:26Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:25:27David Sims?

  Like just snow.

• 2:25:28Speaker 04

  Right. A block away from town, from the house.

• 2:25:30David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:25:30Speaker 04

  Put it next to like a tree.

• 2:25:31David Sims?

  A tree, exactly.

• 2:25:33Griffin Newman?

  But to your point, even if he makes it out of the confrontation with Stormare ahead, gets the car and is on his way, what are the odds he finds that spot again?

• 2:25:42David Sims?

  He's going to collapse.

• 2:25:43Griffin Newman?

  What are the odds that the money is still there? What are the odds he lives for another 12 hours?

• 2:25:46David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:25:47Speaker 04

  Why does he even go to the cabin? Why doesn't he just take the million dollars and just peace out?

• 2:25:51David Sims?

  That's actually an exceptionally, I guess he wants the car.

• 2:25:55Speaker 04

  Or maybe he doesn't want Stormare coming after him. He's like, I give this guy 40 grand and then I have one more to me.

• 2:26:01David Sims?

  I guess there's that.

• 2:26:02Speaker 04

  I doubt he thinks that way.

• 2:26:03Griffin Newman?

  Do we think at that moment that he doesn't know that Stormare killed?

• 2:26:07David Sims?

  He doesn't know.

• 2:26:08Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:26:08David Sims?

  Cause he says, what happened? And he's like, ah, she started screaming.

• 2:26:11Griffin Newman?

  So he's going back maybe to try to?

• 2:26:14David Sims?

  I think Zach's right. He's kind of like, I do not want Stormare on my ass. That guy's scary.

• 2:26:18Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:26:18David Sims?

  I'll give him the money and then I'll split. And then they haggle and you're like, stop haggling. Jesus Christ, give him an extra 10 grand.

• 2:26:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:26:33Speaker 05

  Welcome to 215 Maple Drive. We just put this property on the market.

• 2:26:39Speaker 06

  Love the crown molding.

• 2:26:41Speaker 05

  Oh, wait until you see the walk-in closets and the bathroom tile.

• 2:26:44Speaker 06

  Does it have Verizon FiOS? You know, 100% fiber internet.

• 2:26:48Speaker 05

  No FiOS, but it looks like it's got cable. Let's check out the kitchen.

• 2:26:52Speaker 06

  No FiOS? Yeah, no, thank you.

• 2:26:55Speaker 05

  Don't you want to see the rest? Okay, bye bye.

• 2:26:58Speaker 06

  Get Verizon FiOS because when you're moving, it's 100% or nothing.

• 2:27:06Griffin Newman?

  Now you said there's the moment where he leans in with sort of the shock at Jerry's cruelty in, in hiring them, right? When he realizes the plot. The only other moment where Stormare has a really big reaction to something and he underplays it is like. When he clocks McDormand, she's been yelling. He can't hear her over the wood chipper.

• 2:27:27David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:27:28Griffin Newman?

  Then he feels her in the peripheral of vision. He turns slowly and he looks to her like a small child who knows that they've just gotten in trouble.

• 2:27:36David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:27:36Griffin Newman?

  He like plays that one moment with vulnerability where he kinda knows he can't beat this woman.

• 2:27:42David Sims?

  Yes. And he knows he's caught, like you said.

• 2:27:44Griffin Newman?

  Yes, and he looks, he looks scared and he also looks embarrassed. He looks embarrassed by everything he's done and that she's caught him in this moment not looking cool. And he obviously throws the log at her.

• 2:27:58David Sims?

  Yes.

• 2:27:59Griffin Newman?

  He wants to get away, but like.

• 2:28:01David Sims?

  He's got no chance. He's walking into a lake.

• 2:28:03Griffin Newman?

  It's like so apathetic at that point. Yeah.

• 2:28:06Speaker 04

  It's the same as, as again, the parallels of Macy and these guys is the same. They just, bad decision compounded on top of bad decision. And it ends with both of them just futilely running for where they don't know, you know, just.

• 2:28:19David Sims?

  Macy's the same.

• 2:28:19Speaker 04

  Get away.

• 2:28:20David Sims?

  What's he gonna do if he gets out that motel window?

• 2:28:22Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:28:22David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:23Speaker 04

  You're gonna get caught somewhere else. It's wild. I don't have that interpretation, Griffin. I don't, I don't see his expression at the wood chipper as like shame and embarrassment. I see it as like, oh, there's another person here. Uh, you know, the wizard continues. But I do think that there is a moment where he, he shows a little inner life when he's watching the soap opera and the woman says, I'm pregnant.

• 2:28:44David Sims?

  Yes, and he actually reacts.

• 2:28:47Speaker 04

  Genuinely engaged in surprise.

• 2:28:48David Sims?

  He is, and it is, you're right. It's the only moment he actually seems like to have a human understanding of emotions.

• 2:28:55Speaker 04

  I can't believe she's pregnant if you didn't tell him.

• 2:28:59Griffin Newman?

  Even if he's not embarrassed, he is so unflappable in every other moment where he is confronted with a sense of violence. Right.

• 2:29:06David Sims?

  I mean, obviously the entire, again, I try to think of this entire audience being like, there's a foot in the wood chipper. Obviously it became the butt of a million jokes.

• 2:29:15Griffin Newman?

  Another thing where I knew watching this movie for the first time, you're getting to the iconic wood chipper versus that just being like, what the fuck?

• 2:29:21David Sims?

  He says it in Monsters Inc. I think about that all the time.

• 2:29:24Griffin Newman?

  He says it in Monsters.

• 2:29:25David Sims?

  Shemmy's character says, I'll feed you into a wood chipper to somebody. Uh, and wood chipper is part of Monsters.

• 2:29:30Griffin Newman?

  I have it on my fucking desk, but this was the promotional novelty snow globe they made of the wood chipper.

• 2:29:36Speaker 04

  Oh, there it is.

• 2:29:37Griffin Newman?

  Came with the VHS when the movie was released.

• 2:29:40David Sims?

  Is the snow white or red?

• 2:29:42Griffin Newman?

  Okay, so this is a reproduction of the vintage one, The Snow is White. The vintage one, the snow was red, but they've all yellowed over time.

• 2:29:48David Sims?

  Oh, yeah, sure.

• 2:29:49Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, so that's why I got a newer one.

• 2:29:52David Sims?

  Yeah, I think there's some story I read.

• 2:29:54Griffin Newman?

  I knew like of this, like the sort of like memified merchandise version of the wood chipper before I got to just see that scene hit out of nowhere.

• 2:30:04David Sims?

  It's so annoying that when I search for Fargo and I D B, the TV show comes up first.

• 2:30:08Griffin Newman?

  Well, yeah, this movie is based on the TV show.

• 2:30:09David Sims?

  Oh, God. Now, I was trying to fit, there's some, like, only Stormare knew how to work the wood chipper. Like, the cones didn't understand how wood chipper's worked or something like, I can't remember what it was, but, um, yeah.

• 2:30:24Griffin Newman?

  That you get her final monologue.

• 2:30:26David Sims?

  The final monologue, and then the coda of him getting the stamp. Like, you walk out of this movie really feeling kind of awesome?

• 2:30:33Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:34David Sims?

  I think that is part of the magic.

• 2:30:36Griffin Newman?

  Well, she's still.

• 2:30:36David Sims?

  You're sort of like, there's something right with the world.

• 2:30:38Griffin Newman?

  She's still speaking in a folksy way in that final monologue, but you can tell that she is like actually disturbed by what she's put together in her head. The understanding of why did this many people have to die?

• 2:30:52David Sims?

  Uh, right, right, right, but like, I just feel like you're watching this movie and you're like, like, the darkness, there is like a sort of some, like, resistance to the darkness. You know what I mean? Like, she's still here, and there is something like comforting about, like, yeah, like, it's not all evil.

• 2:31:09Griffin Newman?

  Not to read too much into it, but like, the last scene is basically a metaphor for what you're saying, right? Of Norm being like, they gave me the two cent stamp.

• 2:31:17David Sims?

  Three?

• 2:31:18Griffin Newman?

  Three, I'm sorry, the three cent stamp, and he's viewing it as this sort of like.

• 2:31:22David Sims?

  It's a second place or whatever.

• 2:31:24Griffin Newman?

  And she's just like, they're important, when they raise the prices, you need the three cent stamps.

• 2:31:28David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:31:28Griffin Newman?

  And it's sort of like, does it feel meaningless for someone like Marge to exist in a world where this many deaths are gonna happen?

• 2:31:34David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:31:34Griffin Newman?

  And you can't prevent evil, and it's like, Marge is a three cent stamp. She is making like some small contribution to trying to like stop the ugliness of the world, even if she's not able to do it holistically. Because she's not a-

• 2:31:47David Sims?

  And she's, her optimism is intact.

• 2:31:50Griffin Newman?

  Yes, right, right. It has not curdled her soul. She is not like truly magical as much as the movie sometimes fears close to frame her that way, but she talks a lot about it like being really important to her that she pull it back from feeling like she is just this sort of like impossibly perfect comedic seat.

• 2:32:11David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:32:12Griffin Newman?

  But she's like, right, she, she is able to hold on to her soul, live a rounded life. And like, ACAB, but I watched this movie and I'm like, this is what cops should be? This is like the only positive prototype I've seen for like in a functional society? What a cop would do, kind of?

• 2:32:31David Sims?

  Sure, I guess so, I don't know.

• 2:32:33Griffin Newman?

  You're short of making robot cops, obviously.

• 2:32:35David Sims?

  You have, there's a cop in Weapons, right? Alden's playing a cop?

• 2:32:38Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 2:32:39David Sims?

  Excited.

• 2:32:40Speaker 04

  He's not as, uh-

• 2:32:42David Sims?

  Not as nice?

• 2:32:42Griffin Newman?

  He's not as charismatic, yeah.

• 2:32:44Speaker 04

  Less nice, yeah.

• 2:32:45David Sims?

  Uh, but I just, the Weapons trailer, you know, that shot of Alden, it was just fun, fun. I, I, you know, I like a fucked up cop.

• 2:32:53Griffin Newman?

  You like a fucked up cop?

• 2:32:54David Sims?

  It's a good movie, you know, like that, that's, there's juice there.

• 2:32:57Griffin Newman?

  A bad lieutenant?

• 2:32:58David Sims?

  Sure.

• 2:32:58Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 2:32:59David Sims?

  Tell me this lieutenant's bad? What if there was a bad lieutenant? Um, Zach, before we wrap to, you know, Fargo's sort of legacy or whatever, is there anything else we have not said about Fargo? We've been talking for a while.

• 2:33:14Speaker 04

  I don't think we praised the score enough. We praised it, but you know, score's amazing.

• 2:33:17David Sims?

  But it's like operatic, like for such a minor kind of like story about dirtbag.

• 2:33:22Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:33:23David Sims?

  Yes, yes.

• 2:33:24Griffin Newman?

  But you saying like there's the one moment where the score is sort of like playing up and joking with the movie itself. In the break-in, I think you said?

• 2:33:34David Sims?

  Well, I'm not saying that it's playful. I'm saying it's as playful as it gets in that scene. And it's not that playful, you know, it's still kind of dark.

• 2:33:42Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, I forgot to bring this up in the Blood Simple episode, but there's a really good feature on the Criterion Disc of Skip Lee Say and Carter Burwell talking. And how Skip Lee Say was the one who brought Carter Burwell in.

• 2:33:53David Sims?

  To the Coens, yes.

• 2:33:54Griffin Newman?

  Right, recommended saying, I think you could be a good film composer, even though he had no previous ambition. And brought him over to the Coens and thought, like, you guys would match in tone. And he said that they, he was like, I never thought about doing this for a living.

• 2:34:10Griffin Newman?

  I should try to study the art of film scoring.

• 2:34:14David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:15Griffin Newman?

  And so he said the first movie he rented to try to watch through that prism, he was like, Hitchcock movies have good music. Let me rent some Hitchcock movies.

• 2:34:23David Sims?

  Sure.

• 2:34:23Griffin Newman?

  And he watched The Birds. And then only at the end of watching The Birds did he realize, oh, this movie has no conventional score.

• 2:34:31David Sims?

  I picked a weird one, essentially.

• 2:34:33Griffin Newman?

  Right, that like Herman worked with Hitchcock to intentionally build the soundscape of the sounds of the birds and use it in a way similar to music. But that is a movie where Herman was like, it's actually better, I think, if you don't have music on this. And he said that like, it is complete chance and sort of a mistake on his part that that was the first movie he chose to study. When trying to get his head around film scoring. And yet he thinks it was so instrumental to him to have the confidence to be like, sometimes the move is to not do it. Sometimes the move is to like zag. I shouldn't feel the compulsion to like, literally underscore everything and accentuate what is there on the page.

• 2:35:12David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:35:13Griffin Newman?

  And you're right, it's like, sometimes the score feels apocalyptic, but the quietest sort of like piano version of the main theme is also so deeply sad.

• 2:35:24David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:24Griffin Newman?

  It feels so tragic.

• 2:35:26David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:26Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:27David Sims?

  Sure, it's a tragic movie.

• 2:35:28Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:28David Sims?

  A lot of people die.

• 2:35:30Griffin Newman?

  Seven.

• 2:35:30David Sims?

  Family gets destroyed. It's kind of it, I guess. Most of the other people who die, who cares?

• 2:35:34Griffin Newman?

  Back money.

• 2:35:35David Sims?

  That parking guy, I heard he was a jerk.

• 2:35:37Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. The indignity of you just saw me pull in here.

• 2:35:42David Sims?

  Oh, yeah, you gotta pay him the $4.

• 2:35:44Griffin Newman?

  But that feeling of like, I just.

• 2:35:46David Sims?

  Pay him the fucking $4. This guy could talk to you about, like, somewhat to you.

• 2:35:51Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:35:51David Sims?

  And Carl can't let it go. Try not to stand out like that.

• 2:35:55Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:35:56David Sims?

  It's wild how bad he is.

• 2:35:58Griffin Newman?

  Yep.

• 2:35:58David Sims?

  Um, the film was, uh, released in March.

• 2:36:03Griffin Newman?

  Wow.

• 2:36:03David Sims?

  That is crazy.

• 2:36:04Griffin Newman?

  It basically takes one year for it to win two major Oscars.

• 2:36:07David Sims?

  But beyond that, it didn't premiere at a festival.

• 2:36:10Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:10David Sims?

  Didn't like have any particularly kind of like complicated rollout or whatever.

• 2:36:14Griffin Newman?

  Right. Wins best director at Cannes two months after it was released in the United States.

• 2:36:19David Sims?

  Yes, uh, it played at Cannes. The, uh, jury, um, gave the Palme d'Or, uh, Francis Ford Coppola was the chair.

• 2:36:26Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:36:26David Sims?

  Gave the Palme d'Or to Secrets and Lies.

• 2:36:28Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 2:36:28David Sims?

  Uh, Michael Lee's Secrets and Lies, but it won, uh, best director. Uh, and then of course it won two Oscars, actress and screenplay. And it was nominated for best picture. Uh, it got great reviews.

• 2:36:39Griffin Newman?

  Basically swept the Spirit Awards. I think it won every category maybe.

• 2:36:43David Sims?

  Um, and, uh, I, I think. I think it's still there. Yes, I think it's their move, their most iconic.

• 2:36:51Griffin Newman?

  It's their core movie.

• 2:36:52David Sims?

  Despite No Country obviously being the smash that it was. I do think you kind of can't argue with Fargo.

• 2:37:00Griffin Newman?

  And in an interesting way, No Country feels like a less humorous version of Fargo. They are so similar in so many regards.

• 2:37:08David Sims?

  They are.

• 2:37:09Griffin Newman?

  And even just this notion of like, it is, is it even worth trying to fight? The darkness of the world, like what difference is it gonna make? Obviously Sugar becomes more mythological and the whole film has this more.

• 2:37:22David Sims?

  I guess so.

• 2:37:23Griffin Newman?

  Sober tone that I think.

• 2:37:24David Sims?

  Sugar is this evil myth figure and, yeah, Marge is kind of a good mythic figure in a weird way.

• 2:37:29Griffin Newman?

  But I was thinking about like, at this point in time, Fargo winning best screenplay is like. Very in line with what they would do in the 90s and the early 2000s of like, the movie that is really cool that the Oscar goes for, but they're like, is this a little too weird to actually give it Best Picture?

• 2:37:46David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:37:46Griffin Newman?

  The Pulp Fiction kind of thing. And now I think like this movie would win Best Picture. It is like-

• 2:37:52David Sims?

  Completely different world than Nora just won Best Picture.

• 2:37:54Griffin Newman?

  Exactly.

• 2:37:55David Sims?

  Absolutely, yes.

• 2:37:56Griffin Newman?

  Imagine them being like, well, it's too funny, or it's too slight, or any of those sorts of things. No country has a sense of like overriding grimness that I think finally made it feel like these guys have gotten serious enough, we could give them the Oscar, which in the 90s, there was like a prejudice of like, is this all kind of a goof for them?

• 2:38:16David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:38:17Griffin Newman?

  Despite, like, you kind of can't deny the screenplay for this movie. It is so like tightly plotted, but also it is such a great example of every single line that every character has in this movie could only be said by that one character. Like, every character's voice is so unique and distinct and serves a different function and is like so right there and vivid on the page.

• 2:38:43David Sims?

  Still beat Jerry Maguire in Secrets and Lies. Like, it was tough competition that year.

• 2:38:47Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:38:48David Sims?

  That's sort of the indie Oscars that year.

• 2:38:50Griffin Newman?

  Right. That's, that's the other thing Billy keeps joking about, that Jerry Maguire was the only studio movie.

• 2:38:55David Sims?

  March 8th, 1996, Griffin. This film's opening on limited 36 screens at number 16.

• 2:39:00Griffin Newman?

  What was the widest it ever went? Do you have that? I'm just curious. I gotta ask questions.

• 2:39:05David Sims?

  It made $24 million domestic.

• 2:39:07Griffin Newman?

  60 worldwide, I think?

• 2:39:10David Sims?

  51. It went as wide as about 700 screens.

• 2:39:13Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:39:15David Sims?

  It is not number one. Number one is a big hit comedy that is new this week.

• 2:39:21Griffin Newman?

  March 96.

• 2:39:22David Sims?

  Yep.

• 2:39:23Griffin Newman?

  It's a big hit comedy.

• 2:39:24David Sims?

  Made $180 million for one. Big hit.

• 2:39:27Griffin Newman?

  It's a big hit with a comedy star. Primarily comedy star?

• 2:39:31David Sims?

  It features a major comedy star and then a major serious actor.

• 2:39:35Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:39:37David Sims?

  And then another kind of up and coming comedy star, or I don't know how to describe.

• 2:39:40Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm. Okay. Serious actor, major comedy star, March 96. Who was the distributor of this picture?

• 2:39:47David Sims?

  Uh, it is from MGM.

• 2:39:50Griffin Newman?

  It's not the birdcage.

• 2:39:51David Sims?

  It is the birdcage.

• 2:39:52Griffin Newman?

  It is the birdcage?

• 2:39:53David Sims?

  Wow.

• 2:39:53Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:39:53David Sims?

  My God.

• 2:39:54Speaker 04

  Nichols is the birdcage.

• 2:39:55Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:55David Sims?

  Good movie.

• 2:39:56Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. Big hit.

• 2:39:58David Sims?

  That's what's just crazy about it, that you're like, that thing was a blockbuster.

• 2:40:01Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. And was like, not like a fucking political hot potato.

• 2:40:05David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:06Griffin Newman?

  That everyone just went to see it and was like, funny. Yeah.

• 2:40:10David Sims?

  Yeah. Uh, number two is also new this week.

• 2:40:13Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:40:14David Sims?

  Less of a good movie.

• 2:40:15Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:40:16David Sims?

  A sequel. Family film.

• 2:40:18Griffin Newman?

  It's a family film sequel.

• 2:40:20David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:21Griffin Newman?

  It's not like, uh, it's a, is it a two? Is it a deuce?

• 2:40:25David Sims?

  It's a two.

• 2:40:26Griffin Newman?

  It's a two. It's not like Home Alone Two, or, or, I'm sorry, Homeward Bound Two.

• 2:40:31David Sims?

  It is Homeward Bound Two.

• 2:40:33Griffin Newman?

  I got it.

• 2:40:34David Sims?

  Lost in San Francisco.

• 2:40:35Griffin Newman?

  The debut film from director, do you know who directed Homeward Bound Two?

• 2:40:39David Sims?

  Uh, no. Oh, wow, that's funny. David R. Ellis.

• 2:40:44Griffin Newman?

  Director of Final Destination Two.

• 2:40:46David Sims?

  Final Destination Two. Two and four.

• 2:40:48Griffin Newman?

  I just re-watched all of them leading up to Bloodlines, which I just saw on Rips so fucking hard.

• 2:40:52David Sims?

  What's so interesting about the Final Destination movies is that he made two, which I think is arguably the best.

• 2:40:58Griffin Newman?

  Until Bloodlines, I thought it was the best.

• 2:41:00David Sims?

  The logs one.

• 2:41:01Speaker 04

  The log scene is the greatest, it's not, it's not just the greatest Final Destination sequence, and I haven't seen Bloodlines, so I.

• 2:41:06David Sims?

  And you will love Bloodlines, I think so.

• 2:41:08Griffin Newman?

  I really think you will lose your mind.

• 2:41:10Speaker 04

  But that log sequence is, that, that's a masterpiece of anything.

• 2:41:13Griffin Newman?

  I agree.

• 2:41:13Speaker 04

  It's just amazing.

• 2:41:14Griffin Newman?

  I, I was, uh, I was re-watching all of them and I watched the log scene and I was like, you know what? I'm not ready to move on from this. And I restarted the movie from the beginning and just watched the first 15 minutes again.

• 2:41:25David Sims?

  The logs are so good.

• 2:41:26Griffin Newman?

  It is so incredibly well staged.

• 2:41:28David Sims?

  Yes, it is.

• 2:41:28Speaker 04

  And the sound design.

• 2:41:30David Sims?

  But then here's my thing, he made, in my opinion, what is also in arguably the worst one, the fourth one.

• 2:41:35Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:41:35David Sims?

  Which is one of those things where you're like, I don't get why this is bad and the others are good, because it's not diverting from the formula.

• 2:41:43Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 2:41:44David Sims?

  It is doing the same thing.

• 2:41:45Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:45David Sims?

  And yet the tone of it is off, it's too nasty.

• 2:41:48Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:41:49David Sims?

  It, all the characters kind of are just annoying, you know what I mean?

• 2:41:52Griffin Newman?

  The kids would say, it just feels like the Timu version of Final Destination. Everything just feels kind of off.

• 2:41:57David Sims?

  It's just funny that like, he made the best one and the worst one, anyway.

• 2:42:01Griffin Newman?

  Uh, no, I was going down the rabbit hole of him and being like, man, Final Destination Two is so fucking good. Where did this guy come from? And he has one of those, he died weirdly young in bizarre circumstances that were never explained. But he has one of these like studio journeyman careers where he was like. A stunt performer and then he was a stunt supervisor and then he was a second unit director.

• 2:42:25David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:42:25Griffin Newman?

  And he just had like 15 years.

• 2:42:27David Sims?

  He also made Snakes on a Plane.

• 2:42:28Griffin Newman?

  Positions.

• 2:42:29David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:42:29Griffin Newman?

  Then directed a fucking talking dog movie.

• 2:42:31David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:42:31Griffin Newman?

  And then did Final Destination 2.

• 2:42:33Speaker 04

  My wife worked with him on Shark Night.

• 2:42:35Griffin Newman?

  Oh, that was his last film? Yes.

• 2:42:37Speaker 04

  And she loved him, said he was just, just really great to work with.

• 2:42:41David Sims?

  Was the star of Shark Night, was she not?

• 2:42:43Speaker 04

  She was.

• 2:42:44Griffin Newman?

  Shark Night 3D. Let's put some respect on that. Yeah.

• 2:42:48David Sims?

  When's our last shark movie? Is it time for, I guess the Meg 2?

• 2:42:52Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:42:52David Sims?

  I guess that wasn't that one.

• 2:42:53Griffin Newman?

  And there was a 47 meters down sequel?

• 2:42:56David Sims?

  That seems less than. I just feel like every couple of years, some guy in Hollywood is like, oh, and pulls a lever and they're like, it's time for another shark movie. You know what I mean?

• 2:43:04Griffin Newman?

  It is weird that.

• 2:43:04David Sims?

  There's just some guy in the bowels of Hollywood is like, oh, the shark movie, uh, it's time for another one.

• 2:43:08Griffin Newman?

  It almost always works.

• 2:43:09David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:10Griffin Newman?

  If your budget is low enough, anytime there's some shitty looking shark movie that comes out, like 47 meters down 2, and you're just like, no one's gonna see that. And then just quietly makes 45 million dollars.

• 2:43:24David Sims?

  Number 3 of the box office is a romantic drama, um, with like big movie stars, written by like big shots.

• 2:43:34Griffin Newman?

  Is it the Baldwin Meg Ryan one?

• 2:43:35David Sims?

  No.

• 2:43:36Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:43:37David Sims?

  That's, uh, no, you're thinking of Andy Garcia and Meg Ryan. You're thinking of when a man.

• 2:43:41Griffin Newman?

  No, I'm not. I'm thinking of Prelude to a Kiss.

• 2:43:43David Sims?

  Oh, yeah, sure. No, it's not that. It's even more prestige than that.

• 2:43:47Griffin Newman?

  He, he, Baldwin brings up Prelude to a Kiss so much on HBO Max's The Baldwins. As if it was obviously his Fargo.

• 2:43:57Griffin Newman?

  Like every once in a while, you end up on a perfect movie and it's so clear that he read the script and thought it was gonna be the one that lasted forever. Had a great experience making it and it just didn't connect. Um, okay.

• 2:44:08David Sims?

  I remember like, I saw it the year it came out. So I had to be real, you know, 16. I remember thinking, this is a great movie.

• 2:44:14Griffin Newman?

  I'm sure it's good, but it definitely has not lasted and he talks about it as if it was like the pinnacle of his leading man career.

• 2:44:21David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:44:22Griffin Newman?

  Um, so yeah, Prelude to a Kiss has been on my mind. Okay. It's more prestige-y than that.

• 2:44:27David Sims?

  Uh, the actors involved are, are, you know, major sort of serious stars. They're getting a little older, like. Well, although the female lead is-

• 2:44:35Griffin Newman?

  It's not Frankie and Johnny.

• 2:44:36David Sims?

  No.

• 2:44:37Griffin Newman?

  But it's kinda, is it in that zone?

• 2:44:39David Sims?

  No, that's based on like a play that people liked. This is based on a book-

• 2:44:44Griffin Newman?

  Pacino and Pfeiffer's Prestigi. It's based on a book.

• 2:44:47David Sims?

  Yeah, it's based on a book that I think was about-

• 2:44:51David Sims?

  About a real, uh, person and it's sort of like fictionalizing it. It is like a forgotten movie. It is, it was nominated for an Oscar for its song because it has like an absolute banger of a like big love ballad.

• 2:45:03Griffin Newman?

  It's not like Dying Young, but is it like that level of weepy?

• 2:45:07David Sims?

  Uh, I don't even know. I don't know if you need to weep.

• 2:45:10Griffin Newman?

  Ballad.

• 2:45:10David Sims?

  I think people die.

• 2:45:11Griffin Newman?

  Who's the distributor?

• 2:45:12David Sims?

  Uh, it's, uh, Disney, Touchstone.

• 2:45:14Griffin Newman?

  It's a Touchstone 96.

• 2:45:17David Sims?

  Yep.

• 2:45:18Griffin Newman?

  It's not Phenomenon, which we talked about as in that same year.

• 2:45:21David Sims?

  No, big.

• 2:45:21Griffin Newman?

  And is obviously based on True Story.

• 2:45:22David Sims?

  You might not know this movie. Like, this movie is so forgotten. It's best known because the people who wrote it wrote a book about writing it and how hard it was to write it.

• 2:45:32Griffin Newman?

  Give me one of the stars.

• 2:45:33David Sims?

  Uh, Robert Redford.

• 2:45:36Griffin Newman?

  Oh, uh, fuck.

• 2:45:38David Sims?

  It's got a great title.

• 2:45:40Griffin Newman?

  Um.

• 2:45:42David Sims?

  It's got the kind of title a grown up movie had in the 90s.

• 2:45:44Griffin Newman?

  It's not Havana.

• 2:45:45David Sims?

  No.

• 2:45:45Griffin Newman?

  Fuck. It's, um-

• 2:45:47David Sims?

  Alright, the other star is Michelle Pfeiffer.

• 2:45:49Griffin Newman?

  Yup, yup, yup, yup.

• 2:45:51David Sims?

  The movie was directed by Jon Avnet-

• 2:45:53Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:45:53David Sims?

  And direct, and written by Joan Didion and John Gregory Dunn.

• 2:45:56Griffin Newman?

  Right. It's, it's, is it called like Blank and Blank?

• 2:45:59David Sims?

  Yes.

• 2:46:00Griffin Newman?

  Fuck. Uh, I knew, I know it has like a clear-

• 2:46:03David Sims?

  Exactly. I assume you don't know the title of this forgotten movie.

• 2:46:06Griffin Newman?

  Is it Up Close and Personal?

• 2:46:07David Sims?

  Up Close and Personal.

• 2:46:09Griffin Newman?

  Wow.

• 2:46:10David Sims?

  Robert Redford, Michelle Pfeiffer.

• 2:46:13Griffin Newman?

  I knew it was dun, dun, and dun.

• 2:46:14David Sims?

  Stoker Channing, Joe Montegna, James Rebhorn. That's a movie about grownups.

• 2:46:20Griffin Newman?

  That is a grown up movie.

• 2:46:21David Sims?

  I didn't, I don't know what it's about. I just knew when I was a kid, I was like, but it has the song Because You Loved Me.

• 2:46:26Griffin Newman?

  Oh.

• 2:46:27David Sims?

  Uh, written by Diane Warren, but performed by Celine Dion, which does rock. It's like a, just like a Diane Warren torch song, you know?

• 2:46:34Griffin Newman?

  It is fascinating to look through, as we're in 2025 year of our Lord-

• 2:46:38David Sims?

  Big flop.

• 2:46:39Griffin Newman?

  Diane Warren losing her 30th Academy Award nomination or whatever. And I was advocating like, give it to her this year. Let's just fucking get this over with.

• 2:46:48David Sims?

  Sure.

• 2:46:48Griffin Newman?

  You basically look, the first 10 nominations, you're like, all of these would have been respectable wins.

• 2:46:53David Sims?

  Yeah, Because You Loved Me is a great one.

• 2:46:54Griffin Newman?

  And now she's overdue and every song she's written in the last 20 years has sucked ass.

• 2:46:58David Sims?

  Stinks. Uh, number four, The Box Office is a comedy that I'm sure Ben saw five to seven times on cable.

• 2:47:04Griffin Newman?

  Okay, now Ben recently brought up to me in confidence that the most offended he has ever been by anything you've ever said on the podcast.

• 2:47:12David Sims?

  I assumed he did or didn't watch some movie.

• 2:47:15Griffin Newman?

  Uh, you, you said, uh, Ben, that's definitely one of your big movies.

• 2:47:20Speaker 02

  In a past box office game, one of the movies you described as you must have been a huge fan.

• 2:47:27David Sims?

  He must have watched this one, sure. What was it?

• 2:47:29Speaker 02

  No, you made it out to be like, this defined your personality.

• 2:47:33David Sims?

  Yeah, I doubt they did that.

• 2:47:34Speaker 02

  Malibu's Most Wanted.

• 2:47:37Griffin Newman?

  Hell, yeah.

• 2:47:37Speaker 02

  I knew this came up.

• 2:47:38Griffin Newman?

  Are you sure it didn't? In the last couple of days.

• 2:47:39Speaker 02

  Was astounded.

• 2:47:41Griffin Newman?

  Ben was, Ben was still griping about this to me, truly, five days ago.

• 2:47:45Speaker 02

  You're not a Jamie Kennedy guy? I mean, we got, we all got X'd at one time.

• 2:47:49Griffin Newman?

  That's what I'm saying, right? Yeah, America got X'd.

• 2:47:51Speaker 02

  Like, a couple of times, sure, I got X'd, but I wouldn't say I'm a Jamie Kennedy fan.

• 2:47:54David Sims?

  You watched this movie, you big jerk. I don't care. This movie you did.

• 2:47:57Griffin Newman?

  You truly framed it as like, Ben, this must have been seismic for you.

• 2:48:01Speaker 02

  I am realizing my outfit is giving Malibu's Most Wanted on.

• 2:48:05David Sims?

  Ben, your shirt is not helping you out.

• 2:48:06Griffin Newman?

  You're looking a little bit bad.

• 2:48:08Speaker 02

  No, it is not at all.

• 2:48:09David Sims?

  You look like you're about to like, do some b-boy boobs, you know, and everyone like.

• 2:48:13Griffin Newman?

  Well, that's more kicking it old school. That's a different Jamie Kennedy movie.

• 2:48:15David Sims?

  This film is a broad, uh, comedy starring a sitcom star.

• 2:48:21Griffin Newman?

  I just need to set up the stakes to see if Ben's gonna be offended by this.

• 2:48:23Speaker 02

  No, he definitely isn't.

• 2:48:25Griffin Newman?

  Let's see. It's a broad comedy starring a sitcom star.

• 2:48:28David Sims?

  From a director of movies that Ben loves, other movies.

• 2:48:31Griffin Newman?

  Is it David S. Ward's Down Periscope?

• 2:48:33David Sims?

  Correct.

• 2:48:33Griffin Newman?

  I believe that is one of your favorite movies. Yeah, I like that movie.

• 2:48:36David Sims?

  He's got it right.

• 2:48:37Speaker 02

  No, you're right.

• 2:48:38Griffin Newman?

  He's got you pegged.

• 2:48:39David Sims?

  You ever seen Down Periscope, Zach?

• 2:48:41Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 2:48:41David Sims?

  That's the Kelsey Grammer, uh, submarine sex comedy?

• 2:48:44Griffin Newman?

  I can visualize the cover.

• 2:48:45David Sims?

  Yeah, never seen it. I personally have not seen it.

• 2:48:47Griffin Newman?

  We're, we're, uh, getting ready. It will have happened by this point, but to do a live show in New York about, uh, King Ralph, one of Ben's favorite movies ever, and the movie we've been threatening to discuss for about 10 straight years. Uh, Ben quietly realized that he is a, a David S. Ward, a tourist over the course of doing this podcast, that every movie David S. Ward, Academy Award-winning screenwriter of the sting, directed.

• 2:49:12David Sims?

  Major League. King Ralph, Major League Two, Down Periscope, and then The Program, the sports drama. I think you don't know.

• 2:49:20Speaker 02

  No, not familiar.

• 2:49:21Griffin Newman?

  Every other one.

• 2:49:22David Sims?

  James Caan.

• 2:49:22Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:22Speaker 02

  I gotta watch The Sting, probably like the movie that he's known for.

• 2:49:27Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah, you should watch it.

• 2:49:29David Sims?

  Number four at the box office is a horror film.

• 2:49:31Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:49:31David Sims?

  The fourth.

• 2:49:32Griffin Newman?

  It's the fourth.

• 2:49:33David Sims?

  Number five at the box office, sorry.

• 2:49:34Griffin Newman?

  Uh, number five.

• 2:49:35David Sims?

  This is the fourth.

• 2:49:35Griffin Newman?

  Okay, it's the fourth film in a series.

• 2:49:38David Sims?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:49:38Griffin Newman?

  In nineteen ninety-six.

• 2:49:40David Sims?

  Mm-hmm. I think it's the last theatrical release.

• 2:49:44Griffin Newman?

  Is it Hellraiser?

• 2:49:45David Sims?

  Hellraiser Four, subtitled.

• 2:49:48Griffin Newman?

  So three is Hell on Earth?

• 2:49:50David Sims?

  Uh, possibly. Yes.

• 2:49:52Griffin Newman?

  Four is, it's not Inferno?

• 2:49:56David Sims?

  No, that's five.

• 2:49:57Griffin Newman?

  Fuck. Four is, do you know this, Zach? Are you like?

• 2:50:03David Sims?

  Are you a Hellraiser guy, Zach?

• 2:50:04Speaker 04

  I loved the first one.

• 2:50:05David Sims?

  First one's incredible.

• 2:50:06Griffin Newman?

  Do you know this, Ben?

• 2:50:07Speaker 02

  I don't remember the title.

• 2:50:09David Sims?

  I'm the only person who knows this.

• 2:50:10Griffin Newman?

  Four. No, but I know.

• 2:50:11David Sims?

  That's not true.

• 2:50:12Griffin Newman?

  This is somewhere in my brain.

• 2:50:13David Sims?

  Yeah, I think I'm gonna just make you do it.

• 2:50:15Griffin Newman?

  Is the word hell in the subtitle?

• 2:50:17David Sims?

  No. The film is Hellraiser Four.

• 2:50:19Griffin Newman?

  Dominion?

• 2:50:20David Sims?

  No. Uh, that has not yet, there have not yet been one of those. Uh, the fourth film is Hellraiser Four: Bloodline.

• 2:50:27Griffin Newman?

  Uh, well, like Final Destination.

• 2:50:30David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:30Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:31David Sims?

  Um, I'd never seen it. Uh, that's a film where like the director got fired midway through by Miramax and was replaced and shit. Yeah, I think it's a complete disaster.

• 2:50:39Griffin Newman?

  Because the director was a Cenobite. That was the first time they tried to, right? There was pushback of why aren't you letting Cenobites tell their own stories?

• 2:50:46David Sims?

  Number six at the box office is Broken Arrow. I'm just going by that. Number seven is Rumble in the Bronx.

• 2:50:51Griffin Newman?

  It's pretty funny and I think it'll stand the test of time.

• 2:50:53David Sims?

  This is a fun, trashy time at the movies.

• 2:50:55Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:50:55David Sims?

  You can go see Rumble in the Bronx and then Homeward Bound Two and Hellraiser Four. This is just a bunch of garbage.

• 2:51:00Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:00David Sims?

  Happy Gilmore is still hanging around. Mr. Holland's Opus, the biggest piece of trash of all of these movies.

• 2:51:05Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, no movie you've maybe attacked more in your life than Mr. Holland's Opus.

• 2:51:08David Sims?

  Do you like Mr. Holland's Opus, Zach? I know you're not trying to.

• 2:51:11Speaker 04

  I haven't seen it since it came out and I have very little recall of that movie. I don't remember liking it.

• 2:51:16Griffin Newman?

  My take is that the opus sucks.

• 2:51:17David Sims?

  It, it's seven hours of this guy abusing his students, his wife, just being an absolute crank.

• 2:51:23Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:23David Sims?

  And then he's like, and then they're like, well, you should finally do your opus. We all actually loved you the whole time. And they do his opus and it just lays an egg. The worst opus ever.

• 2:51:32Speaker 04

  The story, is that the opus sucks?

• 2:51:34David Sims?

  The story is that he's always working on his opus and he's so frustrated by how he has to be a teacher. And he's like, God, I hate being a teacher. This sucks. And then at the end, the students are like, well, we loved you and we'll play your opus now. And then they play shit.

• 2:51:47Griffin Newman?

  It is a classic example of a movie writing a check for itself to depict a fictional profound work of art. And by the time you get to the performance, you're like, am I supposed to think this is good?

• 2:51:59David Sims?

  I love it.

• 2:51:59Griffin Newman?

  And the movie frames it as an artistic trial.

• 2:52:02David Sims?

  The movie's like, he did it.

• 2:52:03Griffin Newman?

  He was justified.

• 2:52:04David Sims?

  Yeah. The worst. I mean, anyone else in that movie, like, and he got an Oscar nomination. People like the performance. He plays it so ornery. It's crazy. Number 10 at the box.

• 2:52:13Griffin Newman?

  Dreyfus?

• 2:52:14David Sims?

  Yeah, I know. This might shock you. Uh, number 10 at the box office, Muppet Treasure Island.

• 2:52:18Griffin Newman?

  One of the greats.

• 2:52:19David Sims?

  Great movie.

• 2:52:20Griffin Newman?

  Much like Fargo, one of, one of the few perfect films, not a hair, not a single Muppet fur strand out of place in that film.

• 2:52:28David Sims?

  Zach, we have kept you for far too long.

• 2:52:30Speaker 04

  Yeah. I've enjoyed every minute of it.

• 2:52:32David Sims?

  Well, that's very nice of you to say. Um, this is a perfect movie.

• 2:52:36Griffin Newman?

  It is.

• 2:52:37David Sims?

  And I assume Weapons is similarly perfect.

• 2:52:40Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:52:40David Sims?

  And it's in theaters now and people should go see it.

• 2:52:42Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:43David Sims?

  I am truly excited for Weapons.

• 2:52:45Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:45Speaker 04

  I, I wonder, yeah, I wonder how this, well, whatever. We'll see. Scratch that thought. Hope, hope, hope it's a good time.

• 2:52:53Griffin Newman?

  I hope so too.

• 2:52:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:52:54Griffin Newman?

  We're very excited.

• 2:52:55David Sims?

  Zach, it's gonna go great.

• 2:52:56Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:57Speaker 04

  It's so, it's so stressful, you know?

• 2:52:59David Sims?

  I'm very, I'm very.

• 2:53:00Speaker 04

  The looming release is a, is a terrifying time.

• 2:53:03David Sims?

  And you're about to enter like insane ramp up.

• 2:53:06Griffin Newman?

  Well, yes, right. You have to promote a movie and deal with the feedback and start your next movie like simultaneously.

• 2:53:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:53:13Griffin Newman?

  Um.

• 2:53:13David Sims?

  Sorry.

• 2:53:14Speaker 04

  I, I. Which is a comfort because I'll be working on the next one. Like I'll be in Europe when this comes out. So I have to come back briefly for press, but. You know, whatever happens with weapons, I hope it goes well, but no matter what, I'll be able to go back and just, you know, bury myself in, in, in production, which is, you know,

• 2:53:30David Sims?

  Right, but don't drink any like weird vials that you find in any like labs or anything like that, okay?

• 2:53:36Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 2:53:37David Sims?

  Just make sure and like, you know, put all the gems in the correct gargoyle eyes and all that stuff.

• 2:53:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:53:42Griffin Newman?

  Use the right color keys. Um, I met you like a year ago and you had, I think, basically like locked your cut of weapons, but obviously there were still like post-production finishing stuff to do. And you knew the release date was a ways off. And I said, how do you feel about it? And you just said, I love it so much. And you said it not with like a level of arrogance. You were like, I have no idea how anyone's gonna receive it. I don't know if the studio is gonna like it. I don't know if it's gonna play well, but I like, I, I was like, that must be such a great feeling. To like step back and look and be like, man, I made the thing I wanted to make. And I'm existing in this state of purity before anyone else has to see it.

• 2:54:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, and, and exactly. And right now, you know, in that time, I hadn't even done a test screening and it was just my thing. And it was like, I'm very, very proud because the movie I had in my head when I was writing it is the movie that I see when I watch it. I was able to do that. And that's not always the case. So, so in that regard, I, I'm, you know, I'm totally in love with the movie. I really am. I, but now it's like, you know, you gotta like send your kid to the first day of school and hope no one's mean to it.

• 2:54:49Griffin Newman?

  Right. Is everyone gonna think your kid's a loser?

• 2:54:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. So, uh, it'll stop being my perfect, pure little, little thing. And it'll start being something that everyone's allowed to have a say on and all that, which is, you know, that's what I signed up for. That's okay, but it's.

• 2:55:04David Sims?

  Right. This is right. The bill coming due, but it'll be great.

• 2:55:08Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:55:08Speaker 02

  I like the title.

• 2:55:10Speaker 04

  Thanks.

• 2:55:13Speaker 02

  I feel like I get what it's gonna be about.

• 2:55:16Griffin Newman?

  Do you? Have you seen the trailer?

• 2:55:18Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:55:18Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:55:19Speaker 02

  But I am not necessarily a trailer guy. I'm more of a, I just like to go in.

• 2:55:24Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:55:24Speaker 04

  I love that. Go in blind.

• 2:55:26David Sims?

  I try, I too try to go in fairly blind. I have seen the trailer, but the trailer is pretty mysterious.

• 2:55:30Speaker 04

  Will you go to a theater late so you skip trailers?

• 2:55:34David Sims?

  I mean, I have.

• 2:55:35Speaker 02

  I mean, unfortunately, I mean, we were talking about this before we got started. I, you know, at times will be late. And so I will miss them.

• 2:55:45Griffin Newman?

  I can't relate.

• 2:55:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:55:46Griffin Newman?

  Uh, but you're not a like, you close your eyes and put your head down.

• 2:55:49Speaker 02

  No, I close my eyes and go la la la. Yeah.

• 2:55:51Griffin Newman?

  Some people do that.

• 2:55:52Speaker 02

  No, I, I watch them, whatever.

• 2:55:55Griffin Newman?

  Um, well, thank you for being here. Excited to see Weapons. Encourage everyone to go see Weapons in the future where this episode is coming out and it's playing in theaters.

• 2:56:03David Sims?

  Yeah, we love that.

• 2:56:04Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. Uh, and thank you all for listening. Please.

• 2:56:07Speaker 04

  Thank you guys very much for having me.

• 2:56:09Griffin Newman?

  Truly an honor and privilege. Uh, uh, look forward to doing it again if you will continue to tolerate us.

• 2:56:14Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 2:56:15David Sims?

  Yeah, come back, uh, anytime and come to New York so we can, you know, do an IRL.

• 2:56:19Griffin Newman?

  You'll come on and talk about the, uh, the Dangerous Apartment from Big.

• 2:56:23Speaker 04

  Okay, great.

• 2:56:24Griffin Newman?

  Uh, tune in next week for The Big Lebowski.

• 2:56:28Speaker 04

  Who's doing The Big Lebowski?

• 2:56:30David Sims?

  Well, we'll cut it out if he's not, uh, actually available, but as far as we know, Seth Rogen.

• 2:56:34Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:56:35Speaker 04

  All right.

• 2:56:36Griffin Newman?

  Another, another future bet that everything has worked out. And if not, that will be bleeped out, replaced.

• 2:56:41David Sims?

  We keep booking busy guys, including you, Zek.

• 2:56:43Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:56:43David Sims?

  And it's working out so far.

• 2:56:45Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, we love our busy guys, don't we? Uh, and as always, uh, all that just for a little bit of money.

• 2:56:58Speaker 01

  Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hostly. Our creative producer is Marie Bardis Salinas, and our associate producer is A.J. McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by A.J. McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by J.J. Birch. Our theme song is by Lain Montgomery and the Great American Novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Holly Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to BlankCheckPod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon Blank Check Special Features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes.

• 2:57:43Speaker 01

  Follow us on social @BlankCheckPod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.