Master MONEY MAKING In 60 Minutes: Everything They Never Taught You | Jenny Just

Meet Jenny Just — billionaire investor, poker player, and pure force of nature. She went from the trading floor to 28 years of straight wins by mastering one thing: calculated risk. In this episode, she breaks down how poker shapes decision-making, why methodical reinvention beats blind ambition, and how her radical hiring experiments at Peak6 flipped finance on its head. If you want to win bigger, play smarter, and think differently about risk — this one’s your playbook. Thanks to GoDaddy for sponsoring this video! Head to ⁠godaddy.com/codiesanchez⁠ to get started with GoDaddy Airo® today. ___________ 00:00:00 ___________ MORE FROM BIGDEAL 🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@podcastbigdeal 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bigdeal.podcast 📽️ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@big.deal.pod MORE FROM CODIE SANCHEZ 🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@codiesanchezct 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/codiesanchez 📽️ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@realcodiesanchez OTHER THINGS WE DO 🌐 Our community: https://contrarianthinking.typeform.com/to/WBztXXID 📰 Free newsletter: https://contrarianthinking.biz/3XWLlZp 📚 Biz buying course: https://contrarianthinking.biz/3NhjGgN 🏠 Resibrands: https://resibrands.com/ 💰 CT Capital: https://contrarianthinking.biz/4eRyGOk 🏦 Main St Hold Co: https://contrarianthinking.biz/3YfGa8u Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Starting in trading is really humbling. We lose 40.

• 0:34Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 1:03Speaker 01

  5% of the time.

• 1:04Codie Sanchez?

  What does that feel like, to lose tens of millions of dollars in seconds?

• 1:09Speaker 01

  The very first time it happened that way, that was rough.

• 1:11Codie Sanchez?

  Do you think you can get rich if you don't take risks?

• 1:14Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:15Codie Sanchez?

  Jenny Just is a self-made billionaire, co-founder of the legendary investment company Peak Six that has made money every single year for 28 years. If you want to figure out how to bet big on yourself and whether the next right decision for you is to go left or to go right, you're going to want to listen to this episode.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  Time is massively important. It's definitely a marathon. It's not a sprint. When you have that great year, think about it over a three-year time frame. Don't think about it as today's money.

• 1:46Codie Sanchez?

  What can poker tell us about reading the room in life?

• 1:49Speaker 01

  You have to be thinking about the other cards at the table. Then you have to think about what they're thinking about your cards. If I'm sitting across from someone and I want something to happen, I want more money, I want a different position, you have to think about what they're thinking.

• 2:02Codie Sanchez?

  What's the most amount of money you've ever lost in a single day?

• 2:05Speaker 01

  Hmm, uh, it's a lot.

• 2:12Codie Sanchez?

  So you're a self-made billionaire, right?

• 2:15Speaker 01

  That's correct.

• 2:16Codie Sanchez?

  That's probably what you lead with when you come into conversations. You're like, Cody, really? First question. But I think it's really cool because, one, billionaires are super rare. But to be self-made, then throw on you're a woman, not that many. And then you did it in finance and investing. But what's kind of cool, you didn't start out that way. And you've said a line I loved, which is, you said, "Failure shaped you more than anything else." What does that mean?

• 2:42Speaker 01

  Starting in trading is really humbling. We lose 45% of the time. So it's over and over and over. And that repetition, you know, that compounds. I always talk about compound experience. Each one of those gets you a little smarter, a little braver, a little bit more nimble. I think I was really lucky to start in trading, on a trading floor, in person, and sort of feel what it was like, right, to lose those dollars. But I did it when I was young, multiple times a minute.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  So doing that allowed me then, as I grew, I became, put on my big boy pants and did a little bigger and a little bigger. You know, people think of me as a risk taker because of where I came from, but I became one.

• 3:39Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:40Codie Sanchez?

  A lot of people maybe don't know what trading is. So really what this means is that you were either trading for your own, your own book, your own wallet you could think of, or somebody else's. But you're on the line. Like, every decision you were deciding, "I'm going to put a dollar and bet, quote unquote, on X to happen, and if X doesn't happen, I lose money."

• 3:58Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 3:58Codie Sanchez?

  So like, to put this in perspective for people, what's the most amount of money you've ever lost in a single day? Do you know?

• 4:07Speaker 01

  It's a lot.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Tens of millions of dollars.

• 4:11Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  In seconds, right? There's not even, you know, a whole day. It doesn't have to go by for that to happen.

• 4:17Codie Sanchez?

  Like, can we break it down, Cody? The dead seconds was bad enough. Wow. What does that feel like, to lose tens of millions of dollars in seconds?

• 4:25Speaker 01

  When it first happened, the very first time it happened that way, that was rough. Right? Was all that stuff leading up to this, you know, fantasy? So a lot of second guessing. But... You get better and from it and you obviously don't want to do that again. But I literally just yesterday, right? So we've been doing peak six for 28 years now. And there's always a situation in the market, right? It's, it's why the smartest actually don't win. Long-term capital management is a great story for people to read about. And they were the smartest and they didn't win.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  So being humble about when things are going well and acknowledging what was luck, what was skill, and then recognizing a situation where that same thing, it's going to happen again. What am I going to do then when it does? I just have to assume it's going to happen. I think that is the, so now how do I get comfortable? Because it, you know, the first losses weren't that big, obviously.

• 5:40Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  But the more you put out, the more the chances for a big loss are, so.

• 5:45Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. I mean, is it the first time, did you like when some, when you lost a bunch of money? You're like, I need to go to the bathroom and then you just go get sick in the bathroom?

• 5:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:51Codie Sanchez?

  Or you're just like, do you, because I imagine like as you get older and better at it, those peaks and valleys, if you're going to stay in the game, if you can handle it and figure out mentally how to get through it, which I think by the end of this podcast, given everything I've read from you, we're going to help people get there.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:07Codie Sanchez?

  Be able to manage the peaks and troughs. But I imagine in the beginning, the highs are high. You're like, you know, bottle service at Tao on Jenny. You know, I know what you traders did in finance.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right. That's right.

• 6:21Codie Sanchez?

  But I imagine the lows are really low.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  They are. Yeah. And it's, it's really about recognizing you don't have to have the highest high because you don't want the lowest low. And that's really hard for traders. And, you know, we've had 28 years, never had a losing year. You know, let me knock on something.

• 6:38Codie Sanchez?

  Wow.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  So, and that's really unheard of in our business. But that's also, do we have, did we have the biggest year of anybody? Probably not. But methodically.

• 6:52Speaker 01

  Reinventing ourselves and thinking about how that next market opportunity, new advances in tech, new advance in people who are how we're approaching the problem differently. Each one of those, we don't just assume that we're going to, we kind of think, think in three year cycles roughly of the next Jenny and Matt, Matt is my co-founder, could be, you know, in the garage, especially today with AI. So they could be there. How do we, we probably have to, it's been three year cycles. We probably have to shrink that cycle down, but a lot is possible with very few people these days.

• 7:30Codie Sanchez?

  What does it take to not lose money for 28 years in investing? That's, I mean, it's like you and what Renaissance? And I think they even had one year that was down. What does that mean? Like for somebody who's never really thought about like a risk budget or like risk allocation? How could they conceptualize managing risk?

• 7:49Speaker 01

  You have to assume that you, the worst possible scenario.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  And you can also assume the best because people are already thinking about that. Right? So I assume you're already thinking about what the best outcome is. But what is the worst possible? And then what is the slightly less than the worst possible? Like there is a wide range of outcomes. I think people are quite binary in their thought process. And what if? And, and then using examples from the marketplace that have happened before. You know, people don't want to think GameStop is going to happen again. And you turn around and then there's another one. So, right? Even the smartest in the world at the time when that was happening, we're betting against that stock could actually go higher. It can.

• 8:36Codie Sanchez?

  Did you bet against it?

• 8:37Speaker 01

  Do we bet against it? No, we get what we often do in those cases, we get out of the way.

• 8:41Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  And then we'll, we'll figure out a good way to play it because we like, we're active in 3,000 Public company names in their option, in their options every single day. So we have a very broad, really broad portfolio. So there's a lot of things and we like to be where the volume is for sure.

• 9:04Codie Sanchez?

  So it's a really good way to think about it because by binary, you know, basically meaning everybody thinks either law, I'm gonna lose everything or I'm gonna win everything. And they're really at the broad end of both spectrums.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 9:15Codie Sanchez?

  As opposed to thinking, well, what would it look like if we just continuously want a little bit over time?

• 9:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:20Codie Sanchez?

  Or simultaneously continuously lost a little bit of money.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  A little bit over time, same thing.

• 9:23Codie Sanchez?

  Interesting. You know, what I think's really interesting about you is a lot of what you talk about is, I even hate to use the word mindset because it's like almost touchy feely and you're the opposite of that. You're like very quant. But you know, your, your mission right now, I think is just sort of what I would call break low risk mindsets. Can you talk about why, for instance, so many people take little risk, don't take enough risk and what you would tell them if they were listening to this?

• 9:55Speaker 01

  First of all, it's very unique to the person. Like what taking risks to you means is different than what taking to me. It's a very personal thing. And I think people have to be okay because they, they compare themselves. So if you self assess, where are, where am I on this? Like, you know, give yourself a risk scale, one to 10. And then what is the purpose? Right? Do I have a purpose for taking more or less risk? And I think for most people that I'm either that are listening to you or are coming and listening to me, they are yearning. Right? They, there is a desire as much as I look like I take a lot of risk.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Nobody would have called me a risk taker when I was younger. You can actually learn it. You have to start. So what is a small risk for, you know, if you're a young kid in school, it might be raising your hand in class. Right? Okay. I got over that first hurdle. Now, how do I get over the second hurdle? How do I get over the third hurdle? And I, but I have to make it a conscious exercise for myself, which is why when we talk about poker, I like poker so much because every hand is taking a risk. Right? I mean, for a lot of people, just getting to the poker table is a risk. So especially for women.

• 11:17Codie Sanchez?

  So you think young Jenny, she wasn't a risk taker?

• 11:19Speaker 01

  I don't think so.

• 11:20Codie Sanchez?

  Was she tough?

• 11:21Speaker 01

  She was tough.

• 11:22Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  She definitely was tough. I grew up with four brothers.

• 11:24Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  Not a lot phased me, you know? I went down to the trading floor and, you know, it's a sea of men. And, and the first day, the, a gentleman came up to me and said, "Don't worry, I'll protect you." A guy on our team. And I was like, "From what?" You know? I was looking around, a sea of dudes. Yeah. But, um, yeah, so that, I, that was the good fortune, I think, that I had, that I, I didn't let the outside get in the way. I was always a high achiever in school, but I did what I was told. I didn't sort of go on my own and, and take risk per se.

• 12:00Codie Sanchez?

  Do you think that most people understand the risk level that they are? Like, is that just, it seems sort of nebulous in some ways. It's like a hard concept to wrap your hands around.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, we've been talking about building sort of a risk tool.

• 12:16Codie Sanchez?

  Like a framework?

• 12:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, a framework because, you know, just putting a stake in the ground somewhere, do most people understand? I think if they really were vulnerable with themselves, they do. And I think for people who actually who call themselves risk taker, they also know there's another level. And by the way, risk doesn't have to mean jumping out of a plane. It doesn't have to be betting all your money. Right? It just has to mean being, taking more risk than you are today. You know, I was always looking, you know, in my rearview mirror when we were building our company and when we were winning. I was like, when's the loss going to come? Right? And so I didn't want to take that next risk. Hiring our

• 13:01Speaker 01

  Gosh, hiring our 10th person, it's like no way are we ever having more than 10 people. So like, that was a really big risk to me. And so like, I contextualize all the time what I do. Can I take more risks than I do today? Yes. I mean, when we've been just recently, right? In the last couple of years, investing in AI. Like, how big? And where? And, right? And it's, you know, it's another level for us. I have a funny story really quick. This is one I love this because I said no to Jamie Dimon. So we were, we had a plan A. And 28 years later, we've never done our plan A. We were trying to get a bank to be our partner to do over the counter equity derivatives. That was what we were, that's what we left to go do. That's what we did when we left O'Connor.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  And it was taking forever. And in the meantime, we started Plan B, which is a business that's been around for 28 years now. And, but it's not that we didn't want this other business to happen, but it was going on and on. We'd hired some people to work on it while we were focused over here. And Jamie Dimon was at First Chicago at the time. And so we got to the 11th hour with him and it was dragging, it was dragging, it was dragging. So this is 1999 and, right? We don't have our phones or I had a little calendar on my desk and I circled the date. And I was like, if we don't have an answer by this date, we're out. And they just didn't have an answer yet, right? And we called, we said, we're out.

• 14:29Speaker 01

  So I bet Jamie doesn't get told no very many times.

• 14:33Codie Sanchez?

  No.

• 14:35Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, well, for sure, less so today than then.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  But that, that is a hack right there. This is totally unrelated, kind of, but like, I'm divorced and remarried happily. But my first marriage, like, we just couldn't figure it out and it was not good. And I put a date on the calendar.

• 14:51Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Same thing. And I was like, we will either work through this and we will get, or if it doesn't come to the table in the way that we need to, this is the out date.

• 15:01Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  And I remember when the date came up, I was like, what am I going to do? Not keep my word to myself?

• 15:04Codie Sanchez?

  Right.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Like, that's a pretty important word.

• 15:06Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. And I think when you do it, the first time you do something like that, it's.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  It's definitely motivating and it's inspiring. You're like, all right, I did what I said. And because it's time, right? That's a ways out. You don't know how you're going to feel or think or anything about that. Obviously, you have the luxury of changing your mind if you want. But by sticking to it, definitely changed.

• 15:30Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  My trajectory.

• 15:32Codie Sanchez?

  You inspired me. Right now, actually, we do like, our members do like $300 million in small business transactions a year.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 15:40Codie Sanchez?

  And we have some banking relationships, but I want one deep banking relationship.

• 15:49Codie Sanchez?

  And when I tell you, working with these SBA banks, what the piecemeal nonsense they want to do, where you can't actually see through to who bought, you know, the business. And they're like, well, why don't you email us when they, you know, close? I'm like, we have 100 million eyeballs a month.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:04Codie Sanchez?

  We're doing so many, we're doing more transactions in cumulative than some quarters you are.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:11Codie Sanchez?

  That doesn't work.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:12Codie Sanchez?

  And I think I need to put a calendar on the date to say, if we don't do it by this date, I'm going to buy a bank.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:16Codie Sanchez?

  And then I'm going to have no partners.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 16:19Codie Sanchez?

  And it's another example of an industry that is so outdated for small business.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  It is so hard.

• 16:25Codie Sanchez?

  That I'm like, you know, fine, I could buy one.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:28Codie Sanchez?

  And so, all right. Now, next time you talk to me, if I don't either have the partnership I want, or have bought a bank, you have to yell at me.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 16:35Codie Sanchez?

  Which is annoying. I don't know if you were like this, but my mom, like when I was growing up, she would always say like, she was worried about risk, actually. Risk was bad. And I think if you were to ask her, she would still kind of think, risk's a four-letter word, just like the rest of us.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 16:50Codie Sanchez?

  And why would you do something that takes more risk? And, you know, I think she's a woman. You know, my family, she was a schoolteacher. She really wanted things that were quote unquote guaranteed.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:03Codie Sanchez?

  And I'm wondering, you think that there is maybe this one skill, or even a game, that can help women break out of that? You want to talk about what it is?

• 17:16Speaker 01

  I've been a quiet person for 24 years. I was a quiet person until I learned the game of poker. And I didn't, I didn't necessarily have to be out there for my, our companies and, but I have been trying to help women accomplish more, what they want to do, which for me, it was clearly taking risk around money was like the biggest inhibitor. And when I saw poker, it was the closest thing I've seen to the training I got as an options trader, right? Cause people aren't just going to become options traders. First of all, there's not that many in the world, men or women. And I'm going to go study options trading is,

• 18:01Speaker 01

  is unrealistic, I think. Playing a card game, however, is not. And the irony of the whole thing is, you know, our firm is filled with poker players. In the financial world, you've, you see them all the time. And I just ignored the game because only the guys were playing, first of all. I thought it was a waste of time. And little did I know, it's, there's a little secret. They've been doing it for literally hundreds of years. And so I'll just tell the backstory real quick. So my daughter was 14 at the time. So it was in

• 18:41Speaker 01

  2019, playing a tennis match, losing. Her dad was a college athlete, frustrated. She's losing to someone she looks like she should be able to beat. And comes home and sort of chirps, you know, to me because he doesn't want to to her and says, you know, she may as well be hitting against a wall. She doesn't realize she's playing against someone who's thinking and strategizing. She needs to learn to play poker. And he wasn't really, he was more of a blackjack guy. And I just thought he was being ridiculous and I walked away. And like two weeks later, I was like, should I teach my 14 year old daughter to play poker? And then of course that annoyed me because I would never said that. I have three sons

• 19:25Speaker 01

  as well. I've never said that about them. And by the way, they already knew how to play because they all just seemingly figure it out, you know? And so we, I did an experiment, right? What does a good entrepreneur do? And 10 girls, 10 moms. And it's the only reason I'm sitting here, honestly. So the, the transformation in those girls from

• 19:49Speaker 01

  Lesson one, literally four one-hour lessons to lesson four was like literally skies opened. It was so extraordinary. Now that at the time was really all about confidence. That's what I saw. But as we proceeded to move forward, actually was going right into COVID. I was like, well, we'll do more of this. We had like three states, 17 clubs, something like that. And this is all about being in person. We, you know, months in, we're like, I guess it's not about being in person anymore. So we better figure this thing out. So we actually go to peak six employees, a few thousand employees. So we want to teach your daughters and your sisters and your nieces. And the women were like, so good for them. Why aren't we learning? And I was like, great idea. So we start doing

• 20:34Speaker 01

  it on Zoom, of course. And Morningstar, large international firm, heard what we're doing, asked to do it. And today, now we've taught over 300, I think it's like 370 companies, 60 countries. And through that process, I started to learn. And that's when I saw that same repetition, playing that hand, making that decision with imperfect information, playing people, right? Because we're trading, right? There's a customer on the other side. Even if I don't see them, there's somebody there. What are they doing? Why are they doing it? Right? A thought process that I hadn't seen outside of trading was right

• 21:16Speaker 01

  there in this card game. And when you think about, right, how men espoused a game for so many years, but you know, our presidents play. I just met a man the other day who would play with Obama in the White House when Michelle was on vacation, you know? Naturally. Yes. And I think Trojan horse, honestly, for women, to learn this game, play this game, build those skills. By the way, it's

• 21:46Speaker 01

  This isn't something that you are naturally, someone might be naturally good at it. There's zero reason why you cannot be good at poker. And then, once you start to understand the core of it, how it translates, not just to business, but to life, too. Whether it's relationships, decisions that you have to make in life. You can see how that hand you just played looks like, that negotiation you just did, how that hand you played looks like that meeting you were having. Like, where's the power? Is a person with all the chips? Certainly. But what if a couple of people have the chips at the table? Now, where's the power?

• 22:29Speaker 01

  Well, where's the position that they're sitting at the table? Each layer is quite an extraordinary way of unfolding stories in your life. And when you start talking to people about why they played a hand a certain way, there's so much to gain about how other people think and how they approach. My last bit is, the most fascinating thing, we've been doing this because, obviously, we're teaching mostly women. We will teach men. We're teaching some of your men today. But most men already know how to play, and we're teaching people from scratch. But the surprise, the surprise when they start playing the game, what's actually happening? And how quickly they can translate it to what they do at the office every single day.

• 23:14Codie Sanchez?

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• 23:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I also think it's, you know, it's got a cool factor, too. Oh, yeah. You know? Doesn't hurt this way at all. Yeah, you know? No, it does not hurt that. And I always, I always thought about it as gambling, you know? And I don't...

• 24:08Codie Sanchez?

  I don't like gambling because I don't like risk.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:10Codie Sanchez?

  So I'm like, I'll bet on myself all day, which if you think about it is another type of

• 24:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:14Codie Sanchez?

  uh gamble. But you know, it wasn't until I first started talking to you that I thought, huh, this is interesting.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:21Codie Sanchez?

  Because you and I talked last time about, you know, the thing that I, the thing that keeps me up at night. So I know there are people listening right now and we could give them every tool and every tactic and every how to. But if they don't have the right mindset, if they're not willing to actually take action, which is a risk, and increase their risk tolerance, because my belief is by and large, it's harder to get rich if you don't take some risks.

• 24:49Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 24:50Codie Sanchez?

  It just seems harder. And that part, I've never had a really good solution for how we could teach them that. Because it's all the touchy feely stuff, right? Like manifest and fluffy and blah, blah, blah. And I'm not so good at that. And so, but then I, then I read this thing the other day that I would, I want your take on. The quote was, making money isn't hard, unlearning everything you know about it is. Money goes to people who treat life like strategy, not survival. This isn't about luck, it's about leverage, understanding the rules, then bending them in your favor. Do you think that's true?

• 25:23Speaker 01

  I think there's a lot of truth to that.

• 25:25Codie Sanchez?

  I think there are a lot of things we're told about money that may or may not be true. I'd be curious your take if I could rapid fire some like money sayings to you and you could tell me, what do you think about that? True, false, and what are your thoughts?

• 25:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 25:39Codie Sanchez?

  Okay. Here's the first one. You should just save and skip the coffee.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  I think you gotta have your coffee, but um, uh, you know, if you're not saving somewhere,

• 25:53Speaker 01

  we're really good at defense as well as offense. So, and I think you have to have members of your team on both sides and um,

• 26:08Speaker 01

  but if you're not enjoying yourself along the way, none of it's worth it.

• 26:12Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. What about if you deserve it, you'll get it?

• 26:16Speaker 01

  That's a little tougher for me, I would say. And above average, I'm talented, right? But, and you know, we've done a lot of experiments at Peak Six on types of people we've hired. And

• 26:33Speaker 01

  Maybe deserve is the same as the hard worker. I'm not sure. I don't, I don't hear it that way. But the hardest working people are the people that have succeeded on our team. And people stay because they know they're rewarded for, for working their butt off. And the version of them that comes, right? It's not the most obvious person. I think Peak Six has done a really good job of bringing, you know, a wide range, including a lot of females, more than anybody else in the market in terms of capital allocators. People are actually making decisions around money. We kill them. And, uh, you know, honestly, I think one of the reasons why we succeeded is because I brought a different viewpoint.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  You have to remember, this is 1997. Like for my co-founder to choose a female, that wildly unheard of. Well, there was very few to pick from to begin with. Did I deserve it? Right? I worked my ass off.

• 27:32Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, I like it. Yeah, I was watching a video the other day and it was like, I just want you to keep repeating, like, I will be rich. I deserve to be rich. So I was like, we're gonna need to add a few steps to this process. Cause I don't think that's gonna, that's not gonna get you there.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  Who can say it the most?

• 27:46Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, I was like, a lot of conviction, you know, the young woman had. But then I saw it had a million and a half views. And I sat there thinking, oh, man. You know, sometimes we've got to ask ourselves, are the people that we were listening to, the ones who have actually done the thing that we're trying to get?

• 28:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:01Codie Sanchez?

  That's why I think it's interesting when people who have made a lot of money, had a lot of success are willing to talk about it. It's not that common.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:08Codie Sanchez?

  Like, does it still feel weird for you to talk about, like, when, when people call you a billionaire? Are you like, ah, it feels weird?

• 28:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it feels awkward. It's, yeah, it's weird. But I also think, I also know, like, um, to represent, like, it's important.

• 28:23Codie Sanchez?

  Totally.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  So.

• 28:25Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. You know what's crazy? We've had three female billionaires in here in the last week.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 28:29Codie Sanchez?

  Isn't that crazy? Because there's not very many. So then I was like, what's our percentage? We got a high swing ratio here. I was like, this is pretty good. What do you think about, um, be patient? Wealth comes with time.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  For sure. Time is, is massively important. You know, it's definitely a marathon. It's not a sprint. I do think there are, you know, moments that.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  Are not exactly that, right? You know, unexpected days, we make a lot more money than we should have. I, you know, we, we tell our traders too, when you have that great year, think about it over a three-year timeframe. Don't think about it as today's money, right? We don't want, because traders can be like athletes in many ways. Way too much money and too young of an age. And, um, and we're really proud that people tend to stay a really long time with us. And being a role model who's conservative around spending, right? We're really also conscious, super conscientious there, maybe, maybe too much so.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  We've definitely gotten, been criticized for that in the past. Like, we're watching the pennies to close. It's like, well, if you don't want me to watch your pennies, I won't, but I'm going to watch mine. So.

• 29:50Codie Sanchez?

  What, you said you, you do a lot of experiments at Peak Sinks. What are some experiments you do with your employees or to determine strategies? Because it does seem like you're a very systems-oriented thinker.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, we are. Well, we like to, to know what is working. It's really hard to discern, um, you know, uh, what, what actually it is. I'll give you, this, this is a fun example. So my co-founder grew up playing hockey. Six years in, we got married as an FYI, so I know him very well. And, um, but always interested in the NHL. And so when the opportunity was there to potentially, you know, be part of a team, we were looking at it, at the time, so let's call it, you know, early 2000s. There were like six guys talking about hockey statistics on the internet, you know? And so, and he was one of them.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  But they're all really bright. And, uh, we said, well, what if we took all of those people and we just brought them in as a class? And is there something about their approach, the way they think, that might make a different type of options trader? We did that with poker players many years ago, before I knew poker. We've done that with taking the smartest people that we could, that would possibly come to us. That was a complete fail, by the way. But anyway, so back to our hockey people. So they came on and they were okay. They weren't great traders, but they were there working on, you know, hockey analytics. So if indeed we ever had a team or not.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  Anyway, they ended up leaving, going to hockey teams. And we were talking about this the other day, which is why I was thinking about it. I think the last 12 Stanley Cups, five were either one, I think four, and then one was second place. Whatever, runner up, whatever you call them, loser. But were ex-Pac Six data people.

• 31:53Codie Sanchez?

  Wow.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  Well, they're data people for the hockey teams, but yeah, ex-Pac Six employees.

• 31:58Codie Sanchez?

  You're like, what's that movie with the baseball guy?

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Moneyball.

• 32:01Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, you're like the Moneyball of NHL.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, Matt loves, loves, loves, loves. So.

• 32:10Codie Sanchez?

  Should you have taken a little piece of those teams?

• 32:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Wouldn't that be nice? Yeah, the Panthers is one of them. But we ended up being part of the Minnesota Wild for a little while.

• 32:19Codie Sanchez?

  Interesting.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  And then not anymore, but.

• 32:22Codie Sanchez?

  So then is it true that the smartest people that you've hired for traders do not make the most money?

• 32:29Speaker 01

  We train. People have no knowledge coming in. So you don't have to know. You don't have to have a finance background, econ background. You could have a history background. Matt has an English major. So I was an English major. I was a business major. So we're looking for people at the end of the day who work really hard, who are curious. And obviously they have to be above average intelligence, like just to get into the math side of options trading.

• 32:59Codie Sanchez?

  As measured by IQ? Do you give people IQ tests?

• 33:01Speaker 01

  We don't give them IQ tests, but there are lots of interesting, you know, mathematical ways to solve problems. Yeah. You know, Google, when they first started, all those creative ways of testing people, we like to do that too.

• 33:13Codie Sanchez?

  Do you have like a question you ask them every time? If I want to come work for Jenny, do I gotta?

• 33:17Speaker 01

  No, we don't. No. You know, because I obviously don't interview these, the young kids anymore, but.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  You know, we keep it fresh because there's so much sharing and stuff that happens now. Otherwise they'll cheat. Yeah, but there's a lot of culture that's involved in our hiring, too. We're different than a bunch of the other trading firms on who we bring in and who we don't bring in. But it is, they love it when they come. Like, that is one of the things we're most proud of. Though the other interesting thing is, is if they leave, we haven't had any XP six people really, you know, create a firm like we created a firm. Interesting. Though that is also true of many, you see that actually some of the other financial firms, you'll find some, but not so much. It doesn't happen that often, right?

• 34:09Speaker 01

  There's not that many option trading firms, for example, so. No. But the, you know, Susquehanna, who was O'Connor, where we were at competitor forever is still there. Yeah. So, yeah, well, I met a bunch of those guys at AEI, I think I was telling you last time. And, and I didn't, to be fair, I didn't really understand. You know, when I was at, when I was in finance, I was in private equity and asset management, but, but, you know, like index funds, commingled funds, that sort of thing. And I always thought about trading, maybe I did that in the beginning, but it was really like arbitrage trading. It was like for, you know, State Street, just making a market. Right.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  And, and then I met those guys and I was like, and I think I could say this about them and they would be fine with it. I was like, you guys are weird. Like, this is a different crew, you know? Yeah, it's a whole, it's a whole different animal, for sure. Yeah, they're like physicists and rocket scientists that now trade online. That's, yeah. So half of what you're looking for are these people who basically, they just see the world slightly different. There's some like sort of asymmetric little spin they have. There is. That everybody else doesn't have. Yeah, because it's really a commodity at the end of the day. But, you know, being in equities, this is what I always say, especially for females, like.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  Companies are about people's stories, right? Just like here, you know? It's about your story. And following people is really interesting. Following the AI story is really about the people who are doing it. And so I think it's a great place in the equity world for women to to get their feet dirty because they can, they draw out that and they have real nuances about what they can understand or not understand. Again, because I see myself, like, why, why was I able to? I was trained by someone who was really good at what they did. And that's what we do for our people. So if you're interested in the markets at all, going on the equity side is a really

• 36:14Speaker 01

  interesting place to start.

• 36:16Codie Sanchez?

  So is the framework for being able to take more risk and thus potentially have more reward, it sounds like, and tell me if this is wrong, something like you have to do it more, this is your compounding experience. Then you have to do it, I don't want to say the correct way, but with some sort of mentorship or guidance, just any sort of risk taking, probably not great, has to be some sort of structured risk taking.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  I think it helps. It helps move the ball systematically forward.

• 36:42Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  I don't think it has to be, but I do think that helps for sure.

• 36:48Codie Sanchez?

  And then what's the next step? If it's take a lot of risks, structure the risks, and then take bigger risks?

• 36:56Speaker 01

  I think the next step is, you know, again, there's this, this idea of risk management that I'm doing, how am I evaluating my doing? And you need time to go by. We don't know if a trader is going to be great at their job or not for a while, just like you can go and be a beginner poker player and beat a pro. You can, that, that happens, you know? And so you need enough time to go by and then some assessment of that.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  That data to start to tell a story. It's like playing a hand versus playing, you know, an entire game of poker. That's where the the hands add up to the game. And hopefully, you know, the game, you know, that your table, then you're moving. It's like more like a tournament, right? Then I'm moving on to the next table and I'm moving on to the next table. So along the way is a maybe it's, you know, the context switching happens so much as you're taking risk. You open yourself like your aperture opens up so much that your your regrouping becomes more important, not less important. Like as we take more risk in AI, I make sure we step back and say, okay,

• 38:20Speaker 01

  is that really what we meant to do? Because all of a sudden, we're in, we're in so deep. You know, it's the same thing, you know, like I'm on the turn. I'm on that, that, that, that fourth card that comes out on the table. And I've got a lot of money in this thing. You know, the one thing as a trader you do, you go home at night, you mark to market everything. If I had to start tomorrow, would I do exactly what I'm doing today? And if I didn't, and if, and if I shouldn't, and I should pivot, I gotta get out. I gotta get out of that hand in some way. And some things you can't get out of, obviously. It's one thing to fold the poker hands and other thing to get out of a business or business line or something along those lines. But the the reassessment, the loop, right?

• 39:04Speaker 01

  You don't have to go all the way back to beginning. Once, you know, you're on 10 times of doing this, you're going back to five and you're reassessing the five to 10 because you got better. You went to a different level, one to five, then you went to five to 10. Right? And you're going to come back and reassess, you know? I mean, there's no, I think there's no stopping learning. I think people think once you get to a certain like dollar amount or something like, oh, you know it, you know, the answer. Oh, no, there's, there's a lot more to come. Right? I remember, you know, Matt used to say, you know, so what's your number? Right?

• 39:37Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, totally.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  And, and we all would say it to each other.

• 39:40Codie Sanchez?

  What was it?

• 39:42Speaker 01

  Well, it was, it was 10 million bucks, right? Then it was 100 million bucks. Like, wait, so then what? Right? It's, it's the same idea. How do you, life moves, right? And if you have figured out a way. But that doesn't, it's not a given. I mean, you know, we've had some serious investments that have been.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  Really big valuations that have gone to zero. Like we're talking 13 billion a zero. So that, that, those are real. You're watching some of these AI stocks move around. Like people are getting hurt. And a lot of people are making a lot of money. Right? If you're in crypto, so like every step is, opens you up, I think differently. But I also think what I love and I love about some of the people who, you know, are following you is that I know where I want to go. And I don't need to go to that next. You know, I think I have a, you know, a little bit of an entrepreneur's, you know, disease.

• 40:48Codie Sanchez?

  You think so after like 15 turnarounds? So I was looking at all the companies who've like taken and grown.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not, I have to really consciously tell myself to no. Cause it's interesting to me and people who are entrepreneurs are interesting to me. And I want to see them, I want them to feel what I got to feel, you know? Even, even the bad moments, right? They really have to be ready. I think that's the, you know, me in 1997 versus someone starting today. It's, it's, you're not sharing your fails, you know? You're living your fails. Like I just keep my fails on my desk, you know, just the list.

• 41:32Codie Sanchez?

  Do you really?

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:33Codie Sanchez?

  Like a piece of paper? With all the things you lost money on?

• 41:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:37Codie Sanchez?

  Wild. How, is it one page, two page?

• 41:39Speaker 01

  Oh, it's not. So it's not all the trade, trading, because there's so many trades, right? But it's the company fails, right?

• 41:47Codie Sanchez?

  That's amazing. That reminds me of like Astro Teller from Google X. He used to put on his wall in his office, his failure resume.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:56Codie Sanchez?

  You know, that's fascinating because my other friend who's a hedge fund manager, he does the same thing in his bathroom. He has a picture, like really big one. And on it are all the companies that failed, that he invested in. And like some of the emails of people telling him like, you shouldn't do this. And then he did it anyway.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:15Codie Sanchez?

  What is that? Is that like an inoculation to remind yourself you're not superhuman?

• 42:21Speaker 01

  You know, time heals things, you know? And the pain and suffering of some of those, I, I don't want, I don't want to make that same mistake just because I can.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  Why should I lose $5 million or $50 million on something if I truly know better? When you have quantity, right? And I think I heard you say recently, why have three businesses there? Okay, we can have one really good one. I totally agree with that. It's distracting. It's a heavy burden. But some people are just built for that. So the fun and the drive and the curiosity, can I? Right? So we've created two billion dollar, two multi-billion dollar businesses. Do I want to create a third? Absolutely. Wish I didn't.

• 43:20Speaker 01

  Wish I didn't. I really do, though. I want to prove it. Why? So who? Well, it's really, it's really to me, you know? And nobody knows. Nobody really knows anything because we're a private company. But it was one whisper, one moment in time because we were supposed to take one of our companies public. And then we didn't. It was sort of in the SPAC craze. So that's one company gets leaked and that's how that whole story goes. But it turns out that story is great so that I can get more women playing poker. So that's what drives me to be in public at all and talk. But it's an itch that you want to scratch and you have to be super conscientious.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  I don't care if you have a big business or a small business, but that desire, that's what the failure list.

• 44:12Codie Sanchez?

  By the way, I have a live event. I only do one a year. It's huge. How big? Really big. In Austin, Texas, just for people who want to make more money, buy businesses, build businesses. It's called Main Street Over Wall Street. So if you liked this episode, you're probably going to want to be there. There's only a couple hundred spots left. So click below. I want to shake your hand in person in Austin, Texas. Or go to MSOWS.com. MSOWS. We'll see you there. Hey, it's your friend Cody. By the way, guys, I just realized that a bunch of you are not subscribed, which is crazy because I feel like we hang out every week and we talk about how to make your life better, how to make your bank account bigger, and I want to do more of that. So, one, thank you for being here. Like, sometimes I'm like, pinch

• 44:53Codie Sanchez?

  me moment, you know? And also, share this with a friend, subscribe. The only way we grow is when you share it. And we only show up on your feed when you subscribe. So, I promise that if you do that, I will continue to make this podcast a way for you to steal all my rich and successful friends, so that your life can be even better every single day. Do you think you can teach people to love the game like that? Like, to become obsessed with just playing, whether the game's business or poker life? And if so, how do you, how do you teach yourself to love hard things in business?

• 45:30Speaker 01

  So, I think there has to be some inherent, like, desire that starts it. Can you put fuel on the fire? Absolutely. I think part of the way to do that is be surrounded by people who are amazing, right? Amazing in whatever way. So, like, we really, we yearn for, you know, in the arts, right? When we, you know, fashion, whatever it is, like, somebody, you know, Matt's some energy company in the middle of Utah, in the middle of nowhere the other day, just because we're so curious. And so, I think that curiosity builds, you

• 46:08Speaker 01

  know, sort of the awe of being a human, what other humans are capable of doing. And, and we so enjoy watching that. People enjoy, you know, hearing financial stuff from us, especially in Austin, which has been really funny. They're like, we don't know you people.

• 46:26Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, very much so.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  So, that's been fun since we moved to Austin.

• 46:30Codie Sanchez?

  You people. Now they will.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, now they will. But yeah, that, I think, when we are looking, I know you talk about green and red flags, we are looking for someone who doesn't have all the answers.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  We are looking for someone who's curious and wants to to figure them out because I think it's inherently drawing ideas. We do this a lot. Like, our very first piece of technology was because I went into a Wendy's and which is funny. And whenever I see them, I'm like, why was I eating at Wendy's? But anyway.

• 47:03Codie Sanchez?

  You look like you frequent the place.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Right, right, exactly. But literally, there was someone there taking the order and then there was, you know, it used to be that big boulder of a screen was in the corner. And maybe you don't remember that, but I do. And someone was doing the fries and, you know, we used to laugh, you're the fry guy, you know? But we, that was our, that was our tech we built. And because how were we gonna, as a couple people in a room, gonna manage? Because you have to, the, you have to be broad enough in your trading, right? It's not like we're Goldman Sachs and we have flow, right? We're just two people in a room. So, we have to get a broad enough portfolio for this thing to make sense. But eventually, it became, it was Walgreens, it was Walmart. Like, we created an inventory management system for options trading. And

• 47:48Speaker 01

  nobody had talked about that before. We literally had off-the-shelf models, where everybody was like, the smartest people were using, were creating the best models themselves. Whereas we just bought. So, we just approached the problem differently. How do you do that? I think by being curious about the world, you know? Being curious about learning new things and, and, you know, abstract or angular to what you, what you normally do.

• 48:16Codie Sanchez?

  What companies have you invested in or built or turned around that you're really proud of, but you don't talk about a lot? Because you have a lot of them. Like, are there a couple that you're like, you know what, we did this thing and nobody even knows?

• 48:33Speaker 01

  I think there's, I think there's a lot of pride in turning anything that's like hemorrhaging into not hemorrhaging. Like, there's a lot of pride just in that. There's a lot of pride in

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Helping the people who are, who put their heart and soul into it to not feel like they caused a calamity and were really part of something that worked, it just, it just needed some small tweaks. I think there probably isn't, I think there's probably more that, I'm pretty tough, I'm not, I'm not the one to pat on the back very often. I think there's a lot more that I think we could have done a lot more for. Ultimately, there are people who are behind these things, right, that I wanted some other outcome, right? There's more fails than there are successes. And, but even ideas we had that we, you know,

• 49:38Speaker 01

  thought could be interesting, you know, we were, we were either cocky or stupid, or, you know, we just didn't really understand it so much, you know, we've entered the insuretech space, which is fascinating, you know, I didn't think anything was older than sort of like the way the financial world, the meat in the, you know, the pipes of the financial system were, oh, no, yeah, just go into the insurance side of it. And it's a whole nother. And that doesn't mean people want to change.

• 50:03Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 50:04Speaker 01

  And so, those are the things where, I mean, I just, the, the weight of the world on like, I know we can, does anybody care? Right? And I'm trying to bring a team along to, to care with us and be different, and approach solving the world differently. But, you know, they're big industries. That's what, I think also why I get the entrepreneurial itch, because there are, you know, these smaller businesses that you can continue to do, that give amazing opportunity for a small team of people, that you don't have to take on that, that massive world. Unfortunately, you know, we're sort of in that space. So,

• 50:49Speaker 01

  but yeah, I think I'm-

• 50:50Codie Sanchez?

  You're big now, so.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:51Codie Sanchez?

  You know, you can't, you can't get the same thing out of like a million dollar laundromat, you know?

• 50:55Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 50:56Codie Sanchez?

  I don't know, maybe.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  You never know. You never know where my show, it's funny though, because one of my, my partners, he talks a lot about those types of businesses, and he and I would always talk about them. And so, I'm fascinated by it. I think-

• 51:11Speaker 01

  I think there's an incredible amount of opportunity, you know, in sort of cycles. I think we're in a really good one right now with AI to help you sort of leverage it faster, like unique opportunities that come along. And what does that mean? Whether it's either just helping you on the marketing side, or it's helping you on the research side, or just helping you execute the bones of getting a company off the ground, which is always more burdensome than people think it is. But you have all those, the tools in your toolkit just got fucking awesome.

• 51:48Codie Sanchez?

  That's amazing, because I think a lot of people are really scared about AI right now. They're like, not as optimistic. Maybe the, like, builders, people who really understand tech are like, oh, my God, every day, I almost can't keep up with the new things. But what would you say to somebody who right now is like, I'm super scared of AI. I actually think it's going to take over and make me irrelevant.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Wildly important that you get your hands dirty. Right? So, you know, for PokerPower, we're building tools all the time for our app, for marketing reasons, et cetera. I'm like, I'm going to get in there and build the tool myself. Right? So.

• 52:25Codie Sanchez?

  What are you using? What are we coding with?

• 52:27Speaker 01

  What? Well, Claude.

• 52:29Codie Sanchez?

  Do you ever use Replit, too?

• 52:31Speaker 01

  I have not, but I've heard of it. But I think it's really important, like, who cares that it doesn't go anywhere? It helps in so many different ways, from how to think about solving the problem to how to get a thought into the world in some form or fashion, at a minimum, having communication with somebody else or technologists, who knows? So I think getting your hands dirty.

• 53:00Codie Sanchez?

  And you can't mess it up.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  You can't mess it up.

• 53:02Codie Sanchez?

  Which is super cool.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, by the way, everybody else is getting their hands dirty now, too. They're not experts. Yes, there's some technologists. We're not trying to compete with those people. Right? There's. Ninety eight percent of the world who's just like you.

• 53:18Codie Sanchez?

  So we talked a little bit about poker, but if business is a poker game, what are the deadliest tells in entrepreneurship? What do we have to watch out for that we are signaling to other people as entrepreneurs?

• 53:31Speaker 01

  I think entrepreneurs, that their biggest tell is their overexcitement about the possibility. And so they have a great hand. I'm just not playing, you know, because I don't believe so. Or I might play strongly against them, meaning I might exit.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  So, and we see that a lot because we do see a lot of newbies that do come in. We're happy to think and listen and hopefully mentor a little bit, but

• 54:04Speaker 01

  nothing can go wrong. And it's like, I don't know, that flush might come out and all you have is two pairs. So, and they're just not cognizant. Yeah, just a little naivete.

• 54:17Codie Sanchez?

  How do you, how do you flip that around? So if you are really excited, what is, what do you need to do to temper that? Is it having plans A, B, and C? Is it being honest about the risks? How would we get, how would we get Jenny on board? You know, if I'm like, I'm an entrepreneur, I want to do something with Jenny. I want to show her how great I am, but also show her what a smart thinker I am.

• 54:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a bunch of things. We always say there's like sort of not a formula. It's more like a picture. I think that they have to be aggressive on the offensive opportunity. They do. But if they can't address anything defensively and/or they cannot, they have not shown where they have failed in the past or acknowledgement of failure in some form or fashion, whether it's in this product or somewhere else, I think those become definite red flags for us. I want to know, like you're going to conquer the world, but I also want to know how you're going to methodically get from A to B to C, so.

• 55:16Codie Sanchez?

  I think a lot of times it's really important as an entrepreneur to understand what's happening in the room around you. Like context is super important, not only in, you know, running a business, but let's just say there's somebody listening and they want to get promoted or they want to do better in their job, or they want somebody to take them more seriously. What can poker tell us about reading the room in life? What cues?

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Yes, this one I love only because it's so relevant.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  The context, right? We talked about levels of thinking. So if you're just thinking about your cards,

• 55:53Speaker 01

  you might get lucky. You have to be thinking about the other cards at the table. Then you have to think about what they're thinking about your cards. Right? So if I'm sitting across from someone and I want something to happen, I want more money, I want a different position, I want a different challenge, I want something, I have to think about what they're thinking. And I have to think about what they're thinking about. You know, it's my boss, the rest of my team. I have to think about what they're thinking about, what they owe to their boss. Right? I have to set, literally set the table in, in, you know, full color as opposed to black and white. And that's where we get messed up. It's like, I would love to give you more money, but did you hear, were you at that meeting over there?

• 56:38Speaker 01

  It's probably not a good time. You know, it's just, there are some things that are wildly simple and people are just so adamant. They're like, they've been so frustrated and they come in and they just want A, B, and C. And it, and because they're not addressing the context. That's why when you sit at a poker table and you start to learn, right? And now you're like, oh, I'm going to play with my family. Oh, I'm going to play with my friends. I'm going to play with strangers. Like, all of a sudden you go, oh, that's why this is like the office. That's why it's like that meeting. That's why it's like that conversation.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  Because I don't know everything about the people I work with. And one fascinating thing we've done with our management teams is have them play poker together. It's amazing what our, our, our managers learn about their teams by playing poker with them. And vice versa. But, you know, obviously I hear more from the senior managers.

• 57:31Codie Sanchez?

  But would an example be like?

• 57:34Codie Sanchez?

  Mary always folds really early or doesn't put a lot of chips on tail.

• 57:39Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 57:40Codie Sanchez?

  She doesn't take a lot of risk.

• 57:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. No question. And then now it's a conversation. You know, it's a conversation with Mary. Like, I noticed this. Like, you want to do it in a way so that Mary still keeps coming back to the table, right? Because you want her there, but you want her to recognize, you know? So what do you see? How do you approach Mary? And, you know, what did you do on that hand? Why? What if? One thing you can probably work on, right? And all of a sudden, she starts doing it, because that is way uncomfortable for Mary to do three times the big blind when she goes in. She just wants to tippy toe in. So what message are you sending? And they start to learn. They start to...

• 58:22Speaker 01

  This is where the self-assessment starts to come in and go, oh, wow, I didn't realize.

• 58:27Codie Sanchez?

  So to wrap up, if, if there is, let's say there's a woman listening out there right now, and she knows, like you said, her gut, she knows that she's not taking the right level of risk that she wants to in her life. She is a little scared. She's not sure what to do next. And, you know, she might not have even understood all the things that we talked about today. Like, what would you tell her? Hey, if you want to level up your life next, and if you want to change your mindset about risk and your capability, what advice would you give her?

• 58:58Speaker 01

  For me, right now, because now I've seen the impact with so many women, hundreds of thousands, what the emails I get, the, the LinkedIn stuff we do, the DMs. Learn poker. And, and I also say, like, if I could have learned poker when I was younger, I think I would have saved 10 years out of mistakes in my career.

• 59:24Codie Sanchez?

  You would have had your third billion dollar company.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  That's right. I'm behind.

• 59:30Codie Sanchez?

  Real slacker. Jenny, this was such a pleasure. I love your mission. We're going to put in the show notes the link to your website, which I think is, I loved the risk question at the bottom of the website too. It made me think about what my risk was for today, too. And then also about Peak Six, and then also, most importantly, Poker Power, where they can go and learn more about how to play poker. Now, I think you were working on an app last time I talked to you. Is that out now?

• 59:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, the app is out. Poker Power Play. That exists. So we teach people in person. We teach them virtually. And, you know, we're doing it every day. We have 20 some odd teachers across the US who are traveling or being online to help move the ball forward for anybody who's interested.

• 1:00:14Codie Sanchez?

  That's wild. Do you think you're just competing, created a bunch of competitors now? Because you're going to get all these women now?

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  That's so funny you said it. So my co-founder, Matt, he said, he said exactly that. You literally, like, one hour ago. And he's like, that, that would be a pure joy for us to be able to do that.

• 1:00:35Codie Sanchez?

  I love that. I think most people don't understand that, like, at your level of the game, I imagine, yeah, you want to keep winning, you want to keep building, but it's also something bigger. It's like, what are you going to do? Take all the jets to the grave? You know? No, we're going to leave some behind. Jenny, thank you so much for being here.

• 1:00:55Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com, not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.