Anthropic’s IPO Leak, OpenAI’s Dots vs. Meta’s Muse, Visual Turing Test

Ranjan Roy from Margins is back for our weekly discussion of the latest tech news. We cover: 1) Anthropic's IPO S-1 document leaks 2) Anthropic's revenue growth 3) Anthropic's funding commitments 4) Does the entire stock market hinge on Anthropic pulling it off? 5) Record low S&P 500 breadth 6) Would Big Tech abandon Anthropic if things go wrong? 7) OpenAI introduces its Dots personal agent 8) Alex's Dots review 9) Do you really need frontier models for these AI assistants? 10) Tavus and the visual turning test 11) Shrimp Jesus, avatar style --- Enjoying Big Technology Podcast? Please rate us five stars ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ in your podcast app of choice. Want a discount for Big Technology on Substack + Discord? Here’s 25% off for the first year: https://www.bigtechnology.com/subscribe?coupon=0843016b Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Anthropic's IPO numbers leak. Are they good enough to save the economy? OpenAI has a new always-on agent called Dots, and have we passed the visual Turing test? That's coming up on a Big Technology Podcast Friday edition, right after this. This episode is brought to you by Genesis. What does it actually take to put agentic AI to work across an entire enterprise? I recently spoke with Genesis chairman and CEO Tony Bates about why orchestration is emerging as a competitive advantage in customer experience and what companies need to get right in the AI era. Then I sat down with Adam Mitchell, head of enterprise business solutions at Voya Financial, to go inside a large-scale agentic CX transformation, including the business decisions,

• 0:44Speaker 00

  trade-offs, and lessons along the way. You can watch both conversations now on my YouTube channel today. It's never been more challenging to get frontier compute. How do you know where to look, who to trust, or how much to pay? Akash is an open cloud that provides easy access, flexibility, and peace of mind. That's how companies like Razer were able to cut their inference cost by 15 times. Visit akash.network/alex for a free consultation. That's akash.network/alex for a free consultation. Welcome to Big Technology Podcast Friday Edition, where we break down the news in our traditional cool-headed and nuanced format. We have a great show for you today.

• 1:25Speaker 00

  The long-awaited Anthropic pre-IPO numbers are out, courtesy of a leaked report in Reuters. We're going to go over the numbers and talk about whether they're good enough to keep this economy running. We also have a new always-on agent from OpenAI called Dots. I've tried it. I'm going to give my reflections and why I'm sending it a ton of work already. And then finally, we're going to talk about Tavis and the visual Turing test. Yes, there are some bots now that can completely fool you into thinking they're human on a video call. Joining us, as always on Fridays to do it, is Ron John Roy of Margens. Ron John, great to see you.

• 1:59Speaker 01

  Good to see you. We're getting so much closer to the real S1. And we're getting these tidbits, and we're going to dig into it. But, I mean, did you see they're gonna... I think they announced Investor Day is supposed to be October 14th, and that means we're on track for a pre-Thanksgiving Anthropic IPO?

• 2:18Speaker 00

  Exactly. Yeah, it's coming in November. I think there's no doubt it comes this November. And as you mentioned, we got a leak. So Reuters did scoop basically the entire S1. They didn't print it out for us, but they gave us all the numbers that Anthropic is taking to Wall Street. And we finally have some, like, binding numbers, not ARR. And I'm actually curious how you read them, because there are some good numbers in there, and there are some numbers in there that make you just kind of shake your head and ask, how is this going to work? So, if you will, let me give you a couple of them to start off with. So, the good news is the company's revenue is... If you're Anthropic, the good news is the company's revenue is growing exponentially, right?

• 3:00Speaker 00

  400 million in 2024, 4.6 billion total in 2025. Now, at the end of the year, they said they had a 10 billion ARR. But like, if you have a 1 billion ARR in January and 10, and December, 4.6 is kind of where you would imagine things net out. The crazy number to me is, on that 4.6 billion in revenue that they reported, they said, they told investors, they plan to spend 518 billion over the next decade on computing and infrastructure, and of that, 80% of that spend, 80% of the spend, is binding.

• 3:42Speaker 00

  So you're looking at a company that just basically made, in the most recent year that it can report, $4 billion, that has committed $400 billion and has no way of getting out of it. These are the numbers. Your reaction?

• 3:56Speaker 01

  My reaction is, I was a little disappointed, not in the numbers, which we will get into, is that the leak doesn't have the H1 2026, the first half of the year financials. When they're definitely going to need to be filing and actually publicly stating some amount of 2026 financials and revenue numbers and loss numbers, which I'm sure there will likely be. But, so we have a good look at what Anthropic looked like at the end of 2025. And again, 4.6 billion in revenue. I think, what was the net loss was around... For reference, there's this $42 billion number that's being thrown around as a net loss.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  And I say this, someone who probably is going to be skeptical or dig into a lot of their numbers, but it's not actually 42 billion. $34 billion of it is... It's a weird accounting treatment issue related to the company actually growing in value a lot. But the net loss is still around $8 billion. They're still losing around $2 to actually make every single dollar that they're making. So to me, in 2025, they were losing a lot of money. What does it look like in 2026? There's all these, like, little leaks that they're supposedly profitable back in May and June. I don't know. I want to see that.

• 5:16Speaker 00

  We're going to see that in the documents.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and also, remember, there was talk of $100 billion run rate, or $100 billion in 2026, like, revenue. That's where that ARR and all these kind of, like, reported numbers were going around. And when you think about it, to get to that $2 trillion valuation, you would think, maybe you do start to need to see something up in that direction. So, so I guess, let's get into the compute commitments in just a bit. But I want to know, where do you think their revenue is going to end up? What kind of numbers do you think they're going to show about the current state of the business as opposed to 2025? Because, come on, who remembers 2025 so long ago?

• 5:58Speaker 00

  No, it's very important, because, you know, if that number doesn't look like it's continuing to go exponential, a lot of these big numbers become very scary. So, for instance, Anthropic recently, I think it was Anthropic, you know, told the New York Times... I mean, we obviously, it's like, so, sources close to the matter, right? Was it Anthropic? Was it one of their investors? Probably one or the other. Told the New York Times that it was going to be, it was going to be at 100 billion annualized revenue at the end of the year, by the end of the year. So, you know, you would assume that this year, they're going to hit, you know, somewhere between 50 and 100 billion, when all is said and done. You know, if they can do that, then spending 500 billion is less daunting than if they're at 10.

• 6:43Speaker 00

  But we don't know. And I think you're right. When we end up seeing those numbers, it's going to matter a lot for most of the year. Remember, they've been at something like 45 to 60 billion ARR, at least that's what we've been told, right? So I think they're definitely growing, but the rate that they're growing is going to matter a lot. And this is something that Dario's kind of addressed, right? He's talked about this with Dwarke, for instance. He talked about it with Andrew Ross-Forkin. I think he and I had a bit of a conversation about it when I was there last year, which is that the company has to make these projections of how much compute it's going to need years out. And there's one risk, which is that you buy too little and you can't serve the use case, and your competitor has a lot, which is the story that's been, been told, you know, recently,

• 7:26Speaker 00

  because OpenAI seems to have more compute and is going YOLO, in the words of Dario, and able to meet that need. But the other thing is, if your revenue isn't able to grow to meet your commitments, you know, careful or not, if you cannot meet these commitments, and 80% of them are not cancelable, your company goes bankrupt. And that is the state of Anthropic. And, you know, I wrote about it today in Big Technology, and I called it a leap of faith that Anthropic is taking everybody on. And it really is this leap of faith, because the economy today is dependent on Anthropic and OpenAI meeting these commitments. And if they're not able to, you know, not only is this going to be bad news for Anthropic, which will go bankrupt if they can't meet these obligations,

• 8:10Speaker 00

  but there is going to be a cascade, because the amount of money that they've pledged to companies like Alphabet, like Amazon, and like Microsoft, not to mention Nvidia, is massive, and factors into these companies' projections.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Well, okay, I do agree, it will, these are massive commitments, and will they be able to pay them? And like, what does that actually mean for their financial future? But I don't think it means they go bankrupt. Like, actually, if we outline how this plays out, even again, 80% of that overall compute commit is non-cancelable. But in reality, if this starts to have some kind of cascading effect, do you not think the lawyers are going to get involved and everyone's going to realize, and Anthropic, this is, again, too-big-to-fail-type stuff relative to the Broadcom, the Alphabet, the Amazon, the Microsoft? The people who they have the commitment to also have a very strong vested interest

• 9:09Speaker 01

  that this does not all collapse? So do you think they're, they would, like, drive Anthropic into bankruptcy just to... That's the, because that's the nature of the original contract?

• 9:21Speaker 00

  Well, okay, so that was Dario's words. Maybe I was, you know...

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Wait, did he say YOLO?

• 9:26Speaker 00

  He said YOLO as in OpenAI is YOLO-ing.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  There are some players who, you know, who are YOLO-ing, who pull the wrist dial too far, and I'm very concerned.

• 9:36Speaker 00

  Who is YOLO-ing?

• 9:37Speaker 01

  So, that's a question I'm not going to answer.

• 9:40Speaker 00

  He said, "There are others that are YOLO-ing, and we're trying to be careful," right? And, but, but he, you know, he used, like, basically, these terms that, yeah, we're going to go bankrupt if we can't, because we're signing binding obligations. Look, of course, if you're Amazon, which you have a big investment in Anthropic, right? A lot of these, this is, by the way, it goes back to these discussions we've been having the entire time. The circular financing, right? The investments, the compute deals, right? It's all tied in together. So if Anthropic goes bad, yeah, I don't think Amazon's going to let them, you know, go bankrupt. But it will be irrevocably bad for Amazon and for Anthropic. So, listen to these numbers.

• 10:21Speaker 00

  The commitment, the spending commitments that Anthropic has to Alphabet, which is a shareholder, is $111 billion over the next decade. To Amazon, it's $110 billion, and to Microsoft, it's $31.4 billion.

• 10:35Speaker 00

  You remember seeing like the these earnings numbers of these cloud businesses? Now, of course, that's spread over time, but we see these earnings numbers for these cloud businesses, and a part of it is selling direct to their customers. But a lot of the the growth that we're seeing is coming from their dealings with the OpenAI's and Anthropic's and the health of these companies. Like, pre-AI, for instance, AWS was growing at like 17% consistently a year, which like on a big base is nice, but the company could not increase its growth rate. That has boomed. It's in like the 30 range, 30% range, which is just crazy given its scale. So of course, if Amazon saw Anthropic doing poorly, you know, it would try to make a deal to save the company, save its, you know,

• 11:20Speaker 00

  save its ability to continue to sell its technology, save its investment in the company. Same with Alphabet, I don't doubt it. So yeah, bankruptcy might not happen, but it might not take a bankruptcy to have a cascading issue in our economy. And this is what I really want to speak with you, Ranjan, because you've you've been on the trading floor. You've seen economic collapses. I don't think we're heading towards an economic collapse, but I think we have to talk a little bit about the dependence of the broader market on the financial performance of the Anthropic IPO, of the OpenAI IPO, and the companies more broadly. So I wrote about this in Big Technology today, Anthropic's IPO and our collective leap of faith. Today's public markets and much of the economy depend on AI's continued growth.

• 12:00Speaker 00

  The S and P 500 is currently experiencing its worst breadth since the dot com bubble, with the median stock trading 16% below its 52-week high, even as the index is up around 13% this year. Nvidia has been holding it up, adding more than a trillion in market cap in 2026, and half of the S and P 500's earning per share growth this year is coming from AI investment, according to Goldman Sachs. Steve Ratner put a chart up talking about this. You know, the S and P 500 is near a record, he says, but if you strip out the AI companies, it's down 5% since late August. Right? So this is kind of what it comes down to.

• 12:41Speaker 00

  Anthropic has made these big commitments, and we finally got a chance to see the number with this S1. And it has to make good on them, because we have this like crazy breadth in our market, where many of the companies in the S and P 500 are down significantly off their highs. Right? You're not seeing any growth from them. The growth is concentrated, again, in big tech, mostly in the AI trade, in companies like Nvidia and in these, you know, big tech companies. And should the Anthropic story, or the OpenAI story for that matter, begin to wobble, you could see a cascade here.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Okay, so let's think about how this plays out, because again, I agree, I think we're actually agreed that like these, the magnitude of these compute commits to the Amazon's metas and hyperscalers actually present as much risk to the hyperscalers as they do to Anthropic in the way that it's actually if Anthropic can't pay, that's really bad for Meta, Google, especially Broadcom, Nvidia, and these others. So so I think they need to be worried about this. They need to kind of start trying to understand. I don't know, like, there is so much energy behind this trade. There's so much vested interest in capital that, you know,

• 14:03Speaker 01

  everyone has this interest and so much of the energy around marketing AI and pushing AI, and I say this as someone who strongly believes that it's going to transform everything over time. But like, all of it like has to be done by this especially kind of concentrated group of companies in order to keep this trade propped up. I think we should get into, are there kind of like cascading effects? Is there actual kind of like large-scale economic turmoil? But I think to start, what does it actually look like in terms of Anthropic? Do we think them having an S1 that does not excite the market is the trigger?

• 14:43Speaker 01

  Do we think it's six months from now, growth slows, growth is flat, everyone starts to question compute commits, which then has a follow-on worry around Amazon's cloud earnings, et cetera? Like, how do you see it playing out? Assuming Anthropic does not have just ridiculously good numbers that just saves everyone and we're all okay?

• 15:08Speaker 00

  I think it could be. I mean, here's the thing, SpaceX set the precedent. Now, of course, SpaceX is a very different company, it's not pure play AI, but it went out very strong, of course, and has kind of had some trouble since, even though it is today still trading above its IPO price and hasn't led to some sort of collapse. But Anthropic has some structural risk. And the enthusiasm that investors showed around SpaceX, I don't know if you're going to see the same enthusiasm around Anthropic, especially given all the other risks that we know exist for Anthropic, which is basically its frontier models are competing with standard models that are doing a fairly good job, and companies are starting to say, I'm going to model route and I'm going to go off the frontier and be cheaper.

• 15:51Speaker 00

  It has a customer base right now that is trying to spend less on tokens than they have in the past. And there's all these government and like the world-ending headwinds that like some might say are marketing, but they're a variable, and you don't want a variable when you go out. But look, the fundamental thing here, among everything that I think investors are going to look at, and they'll have to make an option for them, they'll have to make a decision, which is basically, do you want a stake in a company that may end up, you know, creating some world-changing technology? Or do you look at the picture? And the picture shows big losses, big spending coming up. You have spending that you're locked into, again, 80% of that 518 million is commitments that are uncancellable, whatever that means, right?

• 16:36Speaker 01

  Billion, billion.

• 16:37Speaker 00

  Sorry, billion, and uncancellable commitments. And while you can't cancel, your customers can. So these are two other things that came up in the risk factors. Nearly a quarter of Anthropic's revenue came from two customers last year.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:51Speaker 00

  One quarter of the revenue came from two customers last year. And are Anthropic's customers locked in? In a world where everybody seems to be developing AI models? No, again, from the risk factors. Many of the company's largest clients were not locked into long-term contracts and could cut or stop spending with them, basically at will. Again, shout out to Reuters and Echo Eng for, you know, scooping all this. These numbers are fascinating. But this this contrast of being locked into spending while your customers are not and having such concentration in a couple of customers, I don't know if investors are going to run towards a company that has those dynamics.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  It doesn't look good. I mean, at that level, obviously, growth rate over the last couple of years is like unprecedented in like human history, basically, at that kind of level of growth in terms of like revenue. But but I agree, there's all these clear and present risks that are dramatic. Again, that concentration of customers in any other kind of company would be terrifying. And it's funny, because SpaceX, to Elon's credit, I mean, they were at $18.7 billion in revenue and losing money, not at the scale of Anthropic, but still losing $4 billion on the 18, and they came out at over a trillion and got to $2 trillion for a bit. So maybe it's not unreasonable from that perspective.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  But but I think, yeah, the market, everyone's mentality is in a very different place today this in early October versus where it was a few months ago. So I think people will look carefully at this S1. But I guess what would be the most dangerous red flag for you? The compute commits, I think I differ from you. I don't think that is as glaring and shocking an issue relative to the actual core state of the business. So the concentration of customers, losses, if we see slowing growth, that is actually the greatest risk of all. So like, those are the biggest risks.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  Compute commits, I still, that plays out on such a longer time scale. I feel that ends up in kind of like corporate lawyers hashing it out and everyone figures that out. What do you think is the biggest risk?

• 19:12Speaker 00

  I think, don't you think the market, the market is really tenuous right now? Of course, we've seen like the bond market, you know, show some worrying signs. And you just have all these investors concentrated in AI and these AI-adjacent companies. And I've continued, and I'm going to answer your question, but let me just say, I've continued to see these tweets show up on my X timeline that like make me think, huh, maybe that's a problem. This is something from Citadel. Microsoft, Nvidia, Apple, and Meta alone added about 300 points to the S and P in Q3, more than 200% of the index's total gain. The other 49, 499-ish stocks together subtracted about 150 points. This is from Peter Schiff.

• 19:55Speaker 00

  The S and P 500 is 0.7% below its high, yet 430 of the stocks are 27.1% below its their highs. That means on average, 86% of stocks are in a bear market. Breadth has only been this bad twice, in January 1973 and in 1992,000. On both occasions, the S and P then crashed nearly 50%. You know, am I wrong in thinking that the? This might be a hyperbole, but I'm gonna throw it out there. The market is basically being held up by this AI story. It's a narrative, right? It's a narrative that, and I think it's a strong narrative, that companies like Anthropic and OpenAI are, they're just on to something, right? They have found this new technology. It is gonna change the world.

• 20:40Speaker 00

  It's gonna change the world fast and it's gonna be very profitable and maybe not too long of a time horizon. If that story crumbles, it might be what you said, which, and I think that's as good of a reason as any, right? Where, you know, I was listening to some investors this week and they were like, listen, this idea that 25% is two customers. We know, like, there was that rumor earlier this year that one customer, you know, spent like, what, 500?

• 21:05Speaker 01

  Token maxing in a day or whatever it was.

• 21:07Speaker 00

  500 million in a day or something like that. And then it was like, oh, we should put controls. We know businesses everywhere are putting controls on. We probably won't see a momentum slow in whatever numbers they present. That would be bad, but like any little bit of wobbliness could start to, I'm not gonna say bring the stock market down because that's ridiculous, but could make the stock market sort of revert to where I think it's been trying to point, which is like, you know, S and P is up 13% this year because of these companies. You might end up seeing it give up those gains and go down 5 or 10% because people stopped believing in the story.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  5 or 10%? I think if this, if this plays out, I'm not saying 50%, but, oh, sorry.

• 21:51Speaker 00

  On the year.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:52Speaker 00

  So that would be like a 20% drop from where they are now. Not, not, I know you don't like this, but I have to say it. It's not investment advice. We're just having a conversation here, but go ahead, Rajan.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  Not investment advice. I'm not trading off of this either because the irrationality of the market has gone on long enough. And also, as you said, there is a real, there's a real story here, but there's like separating that out from the actual short-term narrative is important to me. And actually, that, that, that stat that 86% of the stocks in the S and P 500 are in a bear market, that they're actually like the vast majority of the market. And, and if you think about what that actually means from like an actual market mechanic standpoint, what has been happening, and I'm sure many of our listeners feel this, and I felt this myself of like,

• 22:45Speaker 01

  if everything you're, if you were invested outside of this concentrated trade, whether it's on the actual semi side or whether it's the actual tech companies themselves, you're not just missing out, you're doing badly on any of those stocks. So everyone starts rotating into them more. So there's more momentum behind them. And that has definitely been happening that if you're not in Nvidia, why are you investing? If you're not in Broadcom or any of these other stocks and like versus trying to find what are good companies in other sectors of the market or even within technology itself and trying to actually understand, are they good businesses? And again, that is not the way the market's been trading.

• 23:29Speaker 01

  And any kind of switch in that mentality, I think, will be pretty dramatic. And I do think the S1 is like, I mean, I'm trying not to go full doomer because I still don't think this is like economic calamity or collapse. I think there's, but I do think that simple narrative breaks, suddenly rich valuations, incredibly rich valuations for a very small group of companies starts to be questioned. And then people actually start to either pull out or move it back to other companies that have been getting hammered over the last year. So I think like, I think the S1, it better be good.

• 24:14Speaker 01

  It better be.

• 24:16Speaker 00

  I mean, that's, we've just seen it. We, I don't think there's gonna be much more.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  Give that.

• 24:20Speaker 00

  So yes, by the way.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  We haven't seen it. We haven't seen it.

• 24:23Speaker 00

  You think they're gonna add before, before they, they go public? They're gonna add these first half numbers?

• 24:28Speaker 01

  They will define it. They will have to. There's no way you can go, there's no way they can go out to the market. Yeah. Again, like this is the first thing and I kept like generally any kind of S1, you're gonna have to show some relatively recent, again, you're not supposed to make forward-looking projections, but you should give an accurate reflection of where the business is today. So if you're going for a $2 trillion valuation, you can't throw out $4.5 billion as the last reflection of what the economics of your business are and then expect that the market, again, that's how things normally work. I don't know what Anthropic is gonna be allowed to do. Maybe they will, but, but they're gonna come out with more, it's gonna be a lot more.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  We're gonna need an emergency pod when that thing comes out because it's gonna be, it's gonna be juicy.

• 25:15Speaker 00

  We had people in my mentions, I think yours too, saying, hey, do the, do the emergency pod when the Reuters story came out. But I think let's wait till the actual document comes out and we can read through it for everybody live on YouTube. And by the way, you said, you know, you, you hinted at it, but this is obviously why Trump was with all the AI CEOs in Washington this year. He's basically just like, if you think about the way. Yeah, well, he's the, he's the president. He wants the stock market to do well. And he's basically just like, if you guys do any more of this doomerism or slowdown stuff, the whole market goes down and that reflects poorly on my presidency. Jensen, you're gonna sit next to me. Dario, you're gonna sit so far down the table, I'm not even gonna be able to see you. No, no more doomerism.

• 26:00Speaker 00

  We're gonna keep building because if we stop, you know, it's not just, again, like to put it, to put it clearly, it's not just an OpenAI or Anthropic story. It's a market story more broadly.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  It is a market story. I mean, it definitely is gonna be a larger market story. Do you think we have to wait for OpenAI? I mean, if you saw, I'm sure you saw they're raising another 30 billion now. So like, they're definitely not going out in the next, in the immediate vicinity. But like, do you think it, do you think Anthropic is gonna give us clear direction on where this is all going?

• 26:37Speaker 00

  Yes. I mean, I've always thought as Anthropic goes, so goes the AI trade and the AI. But because they have bet so strongly on pure play technology, even though they have some products now, I, I've always thought as Anthropic goes, so goes AI. So that is, that is, I think, where, where we're gonna get a lot of clarity around whether, A, the market wants this stuff, whether it believes in it, whether this entire narrative can continue to be held up and that momentum can be held up or not.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  So if you are Mark Zuckerberg or be Mark Zuckerberg for a moment, is.

• 27:15Speaker 00

  Cracking jokes with the president behind Dario's back as he tries to speak.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  Get back on the hydro.

• 27:21Speaker 00

  In the press conference.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Come on, just get on the foil with the American flag. We'll all love it. No, just don't, don't do that, but.

• 27:28Speaker 00

  Okay, throw it at me.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay. So there's weird competitive dynamics here because Anthropic has spending commits to you. Anthropic is kind of like the basis of the narrative. Again, Muse has been a smash hit, like Meta's back in the game more than any of us ever would have given them credit for even a few months ago, much less a year ago. But are you trying to kneecap your competitors? And they are, you know, like the open source, open weight conversation for a while. I mean, Meta's been kind of taking this approach, but like by going super aggressively at your competitors, like, do you go in with men, we're gonna talk about Meta's enterprise launch?

• 28:15Speaker 01

  Do you just undercut price massively in an effort to kind of just smash Anthropic and, or OpenAI? Knowing that the follow-on effects could actually severely impact your stock price in the short term. Definitely not a reflection of like longer-term business strategy. But do you, are you cold-blooded enough that you, you could, you take that approach?

• 28:40Speaker 00

  I, I mean, I appreciate the thought experiment that like Mark Zuckerberg right now is the arbiter of who was gonna win and lose in AI. I just don't see it that way.

• 28:49Speaker 01

  He's one of them. All of Sundar is too.

• 28:51Speaker 00

  He's been, he's been trying. I mean, he's been trying and we're gonna get into Muse versus Dots in a moment. But Zuck has been trying for, you know, since the AI race really began to undercut these companies and it hasn't worked. They've only, you know, continued to, I mean, Anthropic, if it goes out, you know, even at a disappointing valuation is gonna be a bigger company than Meta right off the bat. So yeah, I think Zuckerberg will try, remember, he's got compute, he has cash. So he'll try to do whatever he can to get people to his service versus theirs. But here's the difference, and I think we're gonna talk about this with Dots. When it comes to enterprise, like Muse is a good app for consumers.

• 29:32Speaker 00

  When it comes to enterprise, you really want the best intelligence. You want the frontier intelligence. So that's why I don't think this Meta for enterprise thing, which Meta is introducing, right? So folks, they, this week announced that they're gonna be doing this Muse for enterprise. I don't see it being extremely competitive to Anthropic and OpenAI, though I don't give Meta a hard time for trying. Remember, they have good data. They have relationships with all these big companies. They understand what drives their business and it makes sense to go after them.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  See, I, should we dig into Meta for enterprise?

• 30:07Speaker 00

  Yes, but hold on, we should do, we should do it in this order. We should do, we should talk about Dots, then talk about the competition with Muse and then talk about Meta for enterprise.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's do a real-time run of show here for our listeners.

• 30:20Speaker 00

  So we're gonna do it after the break, but I need to do two things before the break. First of all, Rajan, I gotta tell you, this was a absolute fumble the ball week for me because today I just discovered that I was invited to the revealing of america.gov at the White House. And I missed the message.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  You could have been up there next to.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  I could, I would have been in the gaggle or something.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  No, no, no, you would have been right, right next to Dario, right next to Dario.

• 30:52Speaker 00

  You know, did you see how Dario?

• 30:54Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:54Speaker 00

  Went, went back and hid behind everybody and Trump still called him out. If I was anywhere close to there, I would be hiding even further behind than Daria did, trust me. Okay. Second thing I want to say is, um, just a mistake I want to acknowledge on my part. Last week I talked about how Muse is being promoted to Meta's three billion users. Of course, it's not available to the three billion users. It's just available to a small segment of the population, uh, mostly in the United States. And so, you know, the, looking at the Metta's, Meta Muse's growth, I should have used that as the baseline. Not all of Meta's users, uh, regret the error. Um, Muse has grown nicely, but now it has real competition. So thank you to those who've pointed that out, including Podcast Enjoyer and a bunch of others.

• 31:39Speaker 00

  I always appreciate feedback from listeners. We will get into the Muse versus OpenAI Dots, uh, competition when we come back right after this. This episode is brought to you by Avpoint. Everyone's racing to roll out AI right now. Co-pilots, chatbots, agents doing real work. But here's the part nobody loves talking about. All that AI runs on your data and most teams have no single way to see it, secure it, and prove it's under control. That's exactly what Avpoint does. For 25 years, they've been the trusted layer beneath the world's most demanding data, now extended across your entire AI estate. Your data, your cloud, and the agents acting on your behalf.

• 32:23Speaker 00

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• 33:50Speaker 02

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• 34:19Speaker 00

  And we're back here on Big Technology Podcast Friday Edition with Ron John Roy of Margins. Ron John, uh, big week this week in terms of a always on AI assistants. They can't just be assistants. They have to always be on. And that is, uh, with the introduction of Dots from OpenAI. I'll just introduce it. This is from the New York Times. A new AI agent enters the marketplace, OpenAI's Dots. OpenAI now has artificial intelligence agents that act as personal digital assistants. Announced at the company's annual developer conference on Tuesday in San Francisco, the agents called Dots will compete with Meta's AI agent called Muse, which was also released this month.

• 34:59Speaker 00

  Google's Gemini Spark, which came out in May, and Instinct, an AI agent startup that raised $1 billion in its latest funding round. Where's Grokbot, New York Times? Hmm? And we should also say, where's Grokbot in our discussions? Well, I've mentioned it, folks. Grokbot belongs in that paragraph, okay? Dots are OpenAI's most aggressive push to create a product out of AI agents, um, which will do things like booking restaurant reservations or managing finance, finances. Users can message their dot agent, which they can name in ChatGPT, Slack, or Microsoft Teams, or through text and connect to third-party, or through text and connect to third-party apps. They can also talk to the agent via phone call.

• 35:40Speaker 00

  The agents will be available starting Tuesday to subscribers of ChatGPT's Pro Plans, which start at $100 a pop. Shaky debut, I would say for Dots, right? They, uh, did not nail the demo. Uh, as they were struggling with the demo, um, Meta's stock went, you know, shooting up. An indication that the market believes that these products are directly competitive. And if OpenAI stumbles, it's Meta's bounty. So what do you think about the release of Dots, Ron John?

• 36:08Speaker 01

  I think in terms of the stumble, did you also see Sarah Fryer on a CNBC accidentally called her own product Muse and had to correct herself to saying it's Dots? Okay, I have not tried it yet. I believe you have, is that correct?

• 36:23Speaker 00

  Yes, so I will give you my Dots review now.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  Tell me, tell me your Dots review.

• 36:28Speaker 00

  Amazing. It's amazing. It is, so I decided, you know what? I'm going to go all the way in now and, uh, and give it full control of, uh, I shouldn't even be saying this, but give it full control of my laptop and my browser and, you know, have it in ChatGPT. Uh, and it's incredible. I mean, you can just keep messaging it and it just will pick up. It will basically figure out what you want it to do and pick up your work and start sequencing it. And, you know, especially when you have a lot of tasks piled up and I'll admit, or I will say, it's perfect for me. Because like, um, in my job in particular, I have so many things that pile up. And I also want to make time for, uh, content creation, which like requires like deep work and, you know, moving away from the inbox.

• 37:13Speaker 00

  So like, things can like, you know, sort of, uh, just build up to the point where I have to just get things done very quickly. Lots of emails, lots of invoices, you know, trip planning, all this stuff. And so last night I just sat there and, uh, I told it, well, again, like I, I don't know how much of this I should be sharing, but for the sake of transparency, I'm gonna do it.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  For the listeners, come on.

• 37:36Speaker 00

  I told it, read, read like, uh, as many of my recent emails and articles as you can and pick up my writing style. And then I started going through my email and, you know, you know, you know, you know, when you open an, uh, an email and, uh, you know, it's like, you know exactly what you want to say, but it's like phrasing it in that like email way, where it comes off as like direct but not offensive. You know what I'm saying? Um, is takes like 90% of the energy. This thing got my voice right away and started like drafting email drafts. And, you know, I, so the action I had was like, you know, the intended action, but it starts piling up these email drafts. You know, I'm just like, write, write one of these, like, write this, write this.

• 38:19Speaker 00

  And it comes, it comes in the draft, so I can go into my drafts, alter it a bit and then send, and just very quickly clear out the inbox. Then I said, all right, um, you know, I need to send an invoice. So, uh, it managed to like, and I said, my invoice is in Drive. Uh, I need you to go into Drive, you know, download the invoice, put it, uh, in Gmail and a draft to the people I usually send it to, and write my note. Uh, and it was able to do that fairly effectively. Then I was like, okay, and I know my, are, we debate the travel eval.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  Just, I'm, I'm, I'm in, I'm in, I give up, I give up.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  I was, I was like, I am just going to delegate everything to the dot here. And I have a weekend trip, uh, to El Salvador coming up. And, uh, I was, I was like, these are the places we want to go. Um, my hotel budget is $100 a night cumulatively, so you can go a little bit above and a little bit beneath, uh, depending on the night. You know, uh, find me the rental car, find me the hotels, book the hotels, and then put together an itinerary that we can follow when we're there.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  You let it book?

• 39:28Speaker 00

  And I, well, it got, it basically got, got into booking and needed me to just hit like the final step. So I chose the hotels that it chose. I hit the book, uh, to complete the thing. Then it realized, listen.

• 39:40Speaker 01

  Wait, wait, hold on, no, no, I want to push you. How many options did it give you or you literally narrowed it down to one and went with it?

• 39:47Speaker 00

  Uh, okay, so, so two of the three I liked, uh, one I didn't like.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  There's still human in the loop, human in the loop.

• 39:54Speaker 00

  I got it, I got in that loop.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  I want autonomy, I want, I want you in El Salvador in a dot-pitched, a dot-curated hotel.

• 40:02Speaker 00

  Listen to this. It realized that one of the hotels had some like off-roading before you get there. So it's like, I think this will work, but I'm not a hundred percent sure. And it's like, should I just send emails to budget, like the rental car agency and the hotel, seeing if the car can make it there? And I said, yes. And I just like looked at my sent messages and perfectly drafted in my voice emails have been sent to these folks. So I just, I really went ham on it. And I think because it's built for, for enterprise, because it's built with frontier intelligence, it really can just bang out a lot of work for you. And I have to say, I'm impressed. And compared to that and Muse, you know, Muse is really good for some consumer things,

• 40:44Speaker 00

  but I almost thought like, man, I, I should just delete Muse. I can't believe I'm saying it, but I felt like deleting it because I thought the experience was so good.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  Well, so this is where, and again, I think we should differentiate because like what you're describing is not enterprise in that sense. Like, and again, I can dig into.

• 41:02Speaker 00

  Well, the invoicing is, the emails are, the travel is not.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  Fair, fair.

• 41:05Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  It's work. It's not enterprise. It's work. It's not large scale in terms of like privacy, security.

• 41:14Speaker 00

  We gotta talk about this.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 41:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, but enterprise business, and enterprise business is selling for work clients versus consumer clients. No.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  No, no, but when any of these companies are talking, again, this is my world, like what I have to deal with every day, when these companies are saying enterprise, they're not talking about SMB across small and medium sized business across, which I actually think Meta should go after and not, and we can get into the likelihood of them actually nailing the enterprise, but like large, complex organization, security, that invoice, who does it have to get approved? Like, that's the, still the kind of stuff for enterprise versus individual kind of has full, full say in management over some set of work that's being done. And then that, that's the end of the responsibility. So I'm just, I'm going to push back on that

• 42:02Speaker 01

  side because I actually think it is important in terms of like where dots in this kind of work and these kind of agents are actually going to be, have a lot of potential. But I do think, to me, the most interesting part of this week, and I've not tried dots yet, but I actually went back, I didn't even realize Manus, who Meta bought in 2024, 25, they were one of the earliest that had some kind of like natural language driven workflow generation for the consumer. They had to unwind that. And Manus is out with their own personal agent called Q, which is kind of like the hipster, I'm going to say, I was playing with that one this week and trying that out. They actually have like a video editor in line

• 42:45Speaker 01

  on the desktop, which is kind of cool. Main point being, all these are already starting to feel interchangeable. And it's literally like, it's, everyone is building the same thing in this type of like product, but it, I still think it's going to come down to, who do you trust? I think it's interesting that you gave OpenAI the keys to the car, but you didn't give Muse the full keys to the car. Like, I gave Instinct my credit card and I didn't give it to Muse, but then I gave Muse my Amex login because I was curious for it to like, check in on my platinum benefits and it did a good job on that. So, so I think,

• 43:26Speaker 01

  like, how do you think you're going to differentiate as all these products start converging?

• 43:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, I think you're right. It comes down to trust. And I don't really trust any of them, but there are some that I'm willing to tolerate and some that I'm not. And like I said, I don't even-

• 43:41Speaker 01

  What's tolerate, though? What's tolerate?

• 43:42Speaker 00

  Like, tolerate means like, basically give my, my details. I tried to give, actually I tried to give dots my credit card and it didn't let me, uh, which was interesting.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Really?

• 43:52Speaker 00

  But it actually, you know, it's, it's weird. Like, some of these things, like, for instance, I've tried to get Claude Cowork to sign a contract for me recently. It wouldn't do it. And then I was like, so I'm going to be going to, I shouldn't even say this again out loud. I'm going to be going to Web Summit. There's like a speaker release that you signed for Web Summit that I've signed a thousand times. And I just went to Dot and I was like, go into my email and sign that, that speaker contract. And it did.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  Is that legally binding, Web Summit? No.

• 44:17Speaker 00

  If I get, if I get thrown out of Web Summit after, after this, I'm going to shut my mouth on this show.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  It'll make, no, it'll make for a good enough story that it'll be worth it. That, actually, that's the headline right there. I had my agent sign the web release.

• 44:31Speaker 00

  I want to go to Lisbon.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  All right, all right. No, I think-

• 44:36Speaker 00

  It would be, the headline writes itself, my dot signed a contract, now I can't go to Web Summit or something. But I think I'll end up going. I think I'll end up going. I feel good about it.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  Okay. So where do you, like, what is going to be the differentiator then? Is everyone, and TikTok is probably going to release one. I've been hearing rumors like-

• 44:55Speaker 00

  Oh, TikTok. Oh, there, I definitely want to. I'll give them my birth certificate.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  I mean, hey, it's American owned now. It's all okay. Uh, but yeah.

• 45:04Speaker 00

  I generally, no, social media companies, I don't, I do not want to trust with this stuff. Also, I, I, I do have a bone to pick with you. I think frontier intelligence matters. I think you get more if you have a better, a smarter model. You don't think so?

• 45:16Speaker 01

  Oh, wait, wait, sorry. I, hold on, I didn't argue on that, but actually, on that point.

• 45:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  No, actually, I, I will push back on that because I think for the majority of the type of tasks you describe do not require frontier intelligence. They don't. Like, it's especially small amounts of, like a small corpus of information, our, our, any of our inboxes are actually relatively small, like volumes of information to process, work through, creating a voice or a skill that is in line with, like, that's a pretty simple task for AI too. That's, that's like GPT four, five, maybe O three, maybe we're still in O three territory. So, so I think, but actually, frontier intelligence, if they start erring

• 46:03Speaker 01

  on the side of that, or kind of like biasing towards that, this is going to get very expensive for these companies. Like, the amount of work that's being done in that, to go do, especially this always on like, nature of work, to go be mining your inbox. Again, Instinct, and I've been loving you for a while, but it's like, you don't have to try so hard about reminding me of some emails, like, oh, hey, by the way.

• 46:30Speaker 00

  Well, they need the engagement. That's the thing.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  I know. No, no, I know.

• 46:32Speaker 00

  And that can get weird.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  No, Muse has been hammering me.

• 46:35Speaker 00

  Muse does not stop. Oh, me too.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  Non-stop, non-stop.

• 46:38Speaker 00

  Guess what Muse sent me this week? Muse sent me, uh, just, uh, you know, a heads up that, um, on a separate note, California AG Rob Bonta issued an investigative subpoena to OpenAI yesterday over cybersecurity risks around its AI models. Just as a by the way. And I'm like, wait, did I ask you to send me AI news? And it's like, no, that was an overreach. I was like-

• 47:01Speaker 01

  What are you musing about? Are you, are you musing your news? Do you muse your news?

• 47:05Speaker 00

  I don't muse my news. It must have figured out, you know, that I'm a reporter and started sending me headlines on from it.

• 47:11Speaker 01

  Okay, that's fair. I haven't gotten any-

• 47:13Speaker 00

  But this is its top competitor. That it's trying, it's like, hey, by the way, you know, speaking of trust, OpenAI's cybersecurity problems, California AG, Muse.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  I mean-

• 47:23Speaker 00

  Never a problem. Facebook may be a problem, but Muse is not Facebook.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  No, I, I think that thirstiness is definitely going to start to be more of an issue. And actually, I wonder, are these good? I mean, again, Meta has been like, you know, from the rafters shouting daily active user numbers. And I'm sure they're going to be pushed on this level of engagement. So that is, that's going to be an interesting user experience in, because like, it's going to be such a sensitive balance between giving people something valuable. Honestly, and I said this last week, proactivity when it's valuable is like the most magical experience in AI. One of the most I've had to date of like, oh, by

• 48:08Speaker 01

  the way, I just realized this thing and I think this will be really important to you. And when it is, that's a game changer. When it is, oh, by the way, like you'd look for a dinner reservation two days ago and actually, actually this happened with, with Muse, I'd look for a dinner reservation on a Friday and then on Sunday it went to Resy and looked and found that it was now free, which, that's nice. That's not what I was looking for. So yeah, as they kind of overreach, it's going to be, it's going to be interesting. They got to play it cool. They got to have the, Instinct's kind of cool. Instinct has like, the way it actually writes and speaks is kind of laid back. And I actually saw the founder

• 48:49Speaker 01

  Noah Shin talk about that though, that like, your agent should not be overly eager and stuff. So it's going to be a fun, fun battle.

• 48:58Speaker 00

  I just want to talk about this intelligence thing for a minute. I mean, I have found, you know, you, you might say that frontier intelligence doesn't matter, but I have found that, you know, especially with the latest models from OpenAI and Anthropic compared to everything else, there's just a level of depth and thoughtfulness, um, that, that far exceeds even the previous versions of their models and certainly their competitors.

• 49:23Speaker 01

  What does that mean? What does that look like?

• 49:25Speaker 00

  It, it means like they seem to understand things better. I think that's the best way to put it.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  Like what?

• 49:30Speaker 00

  And with writing, okay, like if I put a story draft in, right? It's like, so oftentimes I won't have AI write for me. I'm, I'm against that. At least, you know, I won't write my news stories or my, anything that I write on big technology. Uh, but like, I will throw, like oftentimes I'll throw a story and interviews in and be like, what did I miss? Or a story and different articles in and say, what did I miss? Um, what I found now is that it will do a much better job diagnosing what's going on in the story. Um, it will do a much better job taking in different inputs, like articles from around the web, uh, clarifying what things mean, like doing things that like, oh, that was really smart, as opposed to

• 50:12Speaker 00

  like, okay, like that's helpful, but still very basic. So I do think the frontier matters. So that's at least what I see on, on my side from a personal level. But I'm actually, I have a question for you, uh, on, you know, what the frontier can do from an enterprise standpoint. So like, what are companies able to do with these next level models when they work on your, your definition of enterprise problems that they couldn't do previously?

• 50:36Speaker 01

  No, but I mean, this is what we've seen firsthand. And you see it in every ramp, uh, spending report that comes out. The enterprise is moving away from frontier models because from a cost perspective and from the actual jobs to be done or the tasks that need to be done, everyone is recognizing that actually, again, all those things that you started outlining that were magical to you about dots are not like frontier tasks. They're, they're limited sets of information to do fairly. I'm not trying to demean the magic of it. I'm, I'm saying like, they're not, they're not requiring, we're not like, uh, sequencing DNA here. We're

• 51:20Speaker 01

  not, I mean, everyone seems to be like building world models on Astra or like, you know, 3D simulated environments, but like-

• 51:28Speaker 01

  Email writing, understanding, again, anything that's text understanding that has some finite number of steps of logic and reasoning, and by finite, I mean like, you know, some limited number, but that still can be tens, maybe even hundreds. Go find this much information, pull it in, process it. That's not frontier anymore. And that, so that's why, to me, and again, it's been in all the ramp data, and it's been a major, and it's going to be an anthropic risk to tie it all back together. Like, enterprises are no longer just pouring money only into the frontier. It's getting distributed across open weight models. People are building in-house.

• 52:07Speaker 00

  Okay, I get it. But I'm asking you, what is a frontier task? That's what I'm trying to say. What are the tasks that frontier intelligence can tackle or do better on than these standard tasks?

• 52:18Speaker 01

  No, but that's where, like, what are the most, if you got to sequence some DNA this weekend, you got to go frontier. If you want to, again, every like, cool use case I've seen people kind of bragging about, remember, a few, like, six months ago, the kind of like YouTube hustle bro AI type of thing would be, I just automated my life, second brain, I just sent, the kind of things you're describing. Now, everyone, again, I don't know, did you not, everyone seemed to just be like, building virtual worlds and video games and...

• 52:53Speaker 00

  I did not do that, although I did see all the examples.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  No, no, but that's what like Astra is, look what I just did, this super complex graphic with stuff going everywhere, and it's, that's all I've seen that like, looks genuinely interesting. Like, versus something that can't be done with something that's close to a frontier model, which is why I think open weight is such a massive threat in the sense of, in the past, they were, open weight would always be 12 to 18 months behind, and now it's six, three to six months.

• 53:25Speaker 00

  Right. Which brings us back to like, this anthropic IPO question. Okay. And that's obviously something that we're going to be debating for a long time. All right. So, we'll, we'll see. Very interesting battle, unsettled, continuing to get more competitive. Before we go, I want to talk to you about the visual Turing test. So, there's a company called Tavis. I had, oh, I had never heard of them before, but they have been making AI video avatars. And I'll just read the story, it's from the rundown AI, Tavis previews Griffin, a lifelike AI that reacts on video calls. It's an AI model that renders a lifelike person who can hear, see, speak, and react during a live video call.

• 54:09Speaker 00

  The startup says, nearly half of the participants in a short company test believed they were talking to a human. Let's play it for a moment, just so folks can see what this AI avatar actually looks like.

• 54:23Speaker 03

  Have you thought any more about how we're introducing Griffin?

• 54:25Speaker 00

  Um, I don't know. What are your ideas?

• 54:28Speaker 03

  I mean, I think we should stop trying to explain it and just, you know, show them what it looks like.

• 54:33Speaker 00

  All right, Ranjan, that completely blew me away. What was your reaction to this? And of course, the study was like, it was a small company test, so it might have been, you know, true believers anyway. But has the video Turing, or the visual Turing test been passed?

• 54:48Speaker 01

  I think it has. I think like, I mean, when you, when you watch a video, no, no, when you watch a video, and actually, what was interesting to me is, it's all the latency, like, the actual pixel fidelity, I feel has actually like, not been fully solved, but it's definitely been like, can you create a human that kind of like, adapts relatively quickly? How long does it take to actually, are you able to render that person, but doing it where it's not, because even, I don't know, have you ever seen this Tilly Norwood stuff?

• 55:22Speaker 00

  I have not.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  It's like this AI actress, there's one, she was on Piers Morgan, she...

• 55:27Speaker 00

  Oh, I did, I did. That was terrible.

• 55:29Speaker 01

  And started acting, yeah, that's what I mean, like...

• 55:32Speaker 00

  She starts, she was speaking Chinese, right?

• 55:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. Accidentally, this thing started speaking Chinese, and it's funny, because I feel that's one of those like, weird, like, boomer meta Facebook things. So, yeah, like, that, there is a latency, you could feel like, there's this long pause while the model is running and processing and inferences, inferencing, and like, they come up with the answer, whereas this one is just natural. I mean, if it's, I got to try, with everything in AI, I have to, like, Google's frontier model, which we didn't even talk about, because they haven't even released it for all of us.

• 56:09Speaker 00

  Gemini Pro.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, Argon, Argon.

• 56:12Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Just release it soon.

• 56:16Speaker 00

  Congrats, guys.

• 56:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, but, but I, it was very impressive. It was very, very impressive, and it's terrifying as well.

• 56:27Speaker 00

  Okay, the memes on this were just unbelievable. Autism Capital was just on a rampage. They wrote, your dad is about to give away your entire inheritance. You know, quoting this video of this person. And then, they also wrote, this is going to hit the Facebook boomer community like, crack in the eighties. And, you know, the jokes are funny, but they really do kind of make you wonder, like, what is this for? Because it seems like, if I'm a scammer, I am like, you know, jumping up and down and thrilled. Maybe some customer service examples, but I don't get what it's for. What do you think it's for?

• 57:07Speaker 01

  What is the scam, though? Like, are, do people have, this is a genuine question, are people having video calls with like, total strangers? Or like, not, I mean, I guess in an interview...

• 57:21Speaker 00

  If you think about like, the text message, the catfishing, like, those like, hey, how are you beautiful texts that, I don't know, you get randomly?

• 57:28Speaker 01

  No, no, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 57:30Speaker 00

  I, I'll admit it, I get them every now and again. The pig butchering texts, we've talked about it on this show. For long time listeners, you know we've talked about it. Doesn't it get easier to do pig butchering when you can throw one of these things out there? And 50% of people, you know, if you are to believe the survey, believe it's real. Scary.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, I mean, I think it's, it's a problem. It is a genuine, this stuff is like, I mean, I don't know, like, occasionally I'll go on Facebook, and the amount of just like, random AI stuff on there anyways is kind of terrifying already.

• 58:04Speaker 00

  Shrimp Jesus, baby, shrimp Jesus.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  We're so, I mean, this is the next evolution of shrimp Jesus. You can talk to shrimp Jesus now. But, actually, I don't know, can you, do you think you'll be able to, do you think they'll have a limited set of avatars, or they'll be able to, like, you'll generate your avatar?

• 58:21Speaker 00

  This is how it goes in AI. There's like, one company that kind of does it properly, and they have some guardrails, and then other companies figure out what they're doing, and they do it without guardrails. So, yeah, I think there will be a shrimp Jesus avatar out there at some point, and it may, it may even begin a, a new religion.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  All right, well, Tavis, if you, if you're not doing that startup idea for listeners everywhere, shrimp Jesus AI avatar that actually has zero latency and is able to speak to people, and actually make them think shrimp Jesus is real, and maybe, we didn't even get into anthropic and Catholicism and consciousness this week, but maybe next week, we just, it's all religion and AI.

• 59:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, I think we should do, let's do another show next week, and keep talking about this stuff, because, man, just the, the news doesn't end. So, I don't know about you, but I will be spending my weekend talking to Tavis, talking to this avatar, and I guess by the time our conversation is done, we'll be ready to record another ep- episode of the show.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  Yep. Weekend plans, I'm going to have it read the next meter research report to me.

• 59:32Speaker 00

  Imagine that, just reciting 80 pages of bots escaping, being, but the narrator is a bot.

• 59:41Speaker 01

  Is a bot. That's our world.

• 59:43Speaker 00

  Yep. Really cool and normal, everybody. Really cool and normal.

• 59:47Speaker 01

  All right.

• 59:48Speaker 00

  Wow, Ranjan, that show went by fast. How are we done already?

• 59:51Speaker 01

  That was fast. I know, I know.

• 59:53Speaker 00

  All right, man. Great talking, as always. Thank you, Ranjan. Thanks, everybody, for listening and watching, and we'll see you next time on Big Technology Podcast.

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