The Bachelor Who Was Betrayed | BONUS

Betrayal host Andrea Gunning does an exclusive interview from SXSW with Love Trapped host Stephani Young and its subject, former ABC's Bachelor star Clayton Echard. Andrea explores how Clayton’s journey on Love Trapped is very similar to the stories that frequently come up on Betrayal and how he is navigating his journey of growth after his personal betrayal experience. You can listen to the Love Trapped podcast here. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/love-trapped/id1878220033 New episodes release every Thursday. To see the exclusive video version of this interview, become a paid subscriber on the Betrayal community at betrayal.substack.com. https://betrayal.substack.com/welcome If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod https://www.instagram.com/betrayalpod/ and @glasspodcasts https://www.instagram.com/glasspodcasts/. If you would like to reach out to the Love Trapped team, email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] and follow along on Instagram @glasspodcasts https://www.instagram.com/glasspodcasts/. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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  Hi, everyone. Andrea here. I have some exciting news to share. ABC has turned Betrayal Weekly into an eight-episode anthology, which means each episode features one of your favorite Betrayal Weekly stories. You'll get to see the people involved, hear from people who have never spoken before, and actually see where the story took place. We are so proud and excited to share it with you all. It's called Betrayal, Secrets, and Lies, and it premieres this Sunday, March 29th, at 10:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, 9:00 PM Central. Please check it out.

• 4:11Speaker 04

  I'm here today with Stephanie Young and Clayton Echard. You are the host and you are the storyteller of our Glass Podcast and iHeart's new podcast, Love Trapped. We're in Austin, Texas. This is really exciting. For people who don't know, Love Trapped is about your story, Clayton, and your relationship with Laura Owens, which started as a business transaction and then turned into a paternity scandal and then a three-year pursuit for justice.

• 4:42Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 4:43Speaker 04

  You guys have done an incredible job and I'm just glad to talk a little bit about your show and why it's right for the Betrayal audience. Thanks for joining me today.

• 4:53Speaker 06

  Thanks for having us.

• 4:53Speaker 05

  Thank you for having us.

• 4:54Speaker 04

  For the Betrayal audience, can you tell them a little bit about who you are and what you do for the show?

• 5:00Speaker 06

  My name's Stephanie and I am the producer, writer, and host of Love Trapped. I've been working on this since June of last year, so we're coming up on almost 10 months and I think I've needed that entire time to do all of the research for this project.

• 5:19Speaker 05

  And I am Clayton and I am the liver of this whole experience.

• 5:24Speaker 06

  It's your life.

• 5:24Speaker 05

  Yeah. But I've been really grateful that I have a platform to help not only me, but the other victims with receiving justice.

• 5:37Speaker 04

  Give me a little bit of a top line about what's been going on for you in your life over the last few years and why you need justice.

• 5:45Speaker 05

  Well, I think you hit the nail on the head. It's been three years of my life that I am not able to let go of until there's resolution. And currently, it's just slowly chugging along and she's still out there and about and has...

• 6:06Speaker 05

  Looked for her next victim. Uh, and for me, it's a matter of being able to stop all of this and make sure that she doesn't have the ability to continue to perform these antics that she's done for 10 plus years. This, this, this goes far before, you know, beyond me.

• 6:24Speaker 04

  So a little bit about Love Trapped. It's the story of your post Bachelor life. Your experience on the show. You are still a Bachelor.

• 6:35Speaker 05

  I still am, yes.

• 6:35Speaker 04

  Yeah. But your experience on The Bachelor, and so we meet you on this podcast after, like in the aftermath of that. And through your move to Arizona, you end up meeting a woman named Laura Owens. And through that meeting, that chance encounter, all this craziness and complicated stuff comes out of that, that meeting.

• 6:58Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 6:59Speaker 04

  When I first heard about your story, it feels like a brief romantic experience with a person doesn't work out. There's a moment of rejection that Laura can't face. And there is fallout from that. And what was that like? How would you define that fallout?

• 7:24Speaker 05

  One of the darkest energies that I've ever experienced. It was so uncomfortable that I had instant chills. And before she sent me the messages saying she was pregnant, I had the exact thought in my head that I don't know what that just was, but whatever it was, it's far from over. And lo and behold, 11 days later from that point, you know, she, she sends the initial messages that she's pregnant. But it was a very, very uncomfortable presence. It was just, it was as if the lights went off and she was no longer there. It's like, it's like nothing I've ever experienced.

• 8:07Speaker 04

  Right. So it became really clear that she wanted a romantic relationship with you. She wanted to have a dating relationship with you, a long-term relationship with you. And when that didn't work out, she was telling you that she was pregnant. And there was this, um,

• 8:27Speaker 04

  She wanted to be connected with you in some way. Was trying to leverage this idea of you being potentially the father to stay in connection with you and was doing whatever she could to stay in connection and keep you on the, on the hook.

• 8:43Speaker 04

  One of the things that I think a lot of our Betrayal listeners will relate to is that moment of when the mask comes off. We talk about it a lot, actually.

• 8:52Speaker 04

  There is a moment in time when a lot of the storytellers I work with, where they discover, like the, the day of discovery, the husband that they've known for 25 years then reveals their double life and they physically change.

• 9:08Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 9:09Speaker 04

  Right. Their voice changes, their face looks different. So I think a lot of our listeners and others can really relate to that moment of you saying no to Laura and then something shifts.

• 9:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, I was just going back as you're describing that back into that moment. And I just, yeah, chills again, because her demeanor went from crying to stone cold, just expressionless. And there was this darkness where her eyes didn't go all fully black, but it felt as if they did. And it was just this instant, I said, no means no, Laura. There's nothing more here to, to explore. She wiped her last tear and she said, no, I understand. Have a great day. And it was just this, it was like two separate entities. Like I was talking to one version and then all of a sudden there was a switch that flipped. I mean, it was that sudden.

• 10:06Speaker 05

  So it's interesting that you say that that's what other people have experienced because I, yeah, I saw it face to face and I've just never experienced something like that.

• 10:16Speaker 04

  Yeah. After that interaction in the car. What happened from there? Tell us a little bit about the harassment and then everything you had to go through.

• 10:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, so we were involved in a real estate transaction. She reached out to me originally to do real estate. You know, I made the mistake of mixing business with pleasure and it wasn't.

• 10:38Speaker 04

  Lesson learned.

• 10:38Speaker 05

  Yeah, lesson learned. I don't do that now.

• 10:42Speaker 05

  But I, you know, crossed that boundary. But then I had mentioned to her that in the car the next day, I said, that was unprofessional. You know, I can pass you off to another agent. She said, no, I want to work with you.

• 10:55Speaker 05

  I said, okay, let's keep professional from here on out. She said she agreed to it, but then she kept going back to trying to make it more than that. So over the course of the next few days, it was this, well, hey, I actually still want to explore this. And then it got to the point of if you're not willing to explore a relationship, I'll just go work with somebody else. To which I said, called her bluff. I said, okay, then go do that. And then she, you know, said, no, no, I really want to work with you. So this back and forth, and then ultimately she just kept texting me, kept texting me. And then she started alluding to the fact that she was fertile and she knew that she was fertile during this period of her life. And she was concerned that night, even though we didn't have sexual intercourse, that when we were grinding, something could have, fluid could have, you know, been transmitted.

• 11:38Speaker 05

  So she starts alluding to it before she said she was pregnant and I'm like, no, I'm not doing this. And so I was like, hey, I'm going to block you like this. I don't want anything more to do with you. Like, please stop texting me, you're harassing me because there's constant messages coming in. We're talking paragraphs long. So I ended up blocking her and then that was, you know, 11 days or probably a few days later after that, on day 11, from the time from when we originally hooked up, was when I got that email from her and she had sent over a positive pregnancy test and like a doctor's note. Yeah.

• 12:11Speaker 04

  And so it really has been this journey of proving that she could have never been pregnant, that you are not the father.

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• 15:30Speaker 04

  What has it been like covering this story, Stephanie?

• 15:33Speaker 06

  It's been mind blowing because every time you think that you've heard it all, there's something else that comes out. And you're just like, this can't possibly be real. And I think one of the most mind blowing things is the timeline of events. So in betrayal, you just mentioned like some of these people have been together for 25 years.

• 15:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:55Speaker 06

  And it's that, you know, shock of being betrayed by somebody that you've known that long. With Clayton's case, he met her via LinkedIn message on May 17th. The hookup happened on May 20th, and then by June 1st, she was pregnant. So this is like a speedy timeline compared to some of the betrayal stories. So that to me is shocking. And covering that part of it, it's just like, whoa. This is like a very quick timeline to go from zero to 100.

• 16:29Speaker 04

  And the unrelenting barrage of information.

• 16:32Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 16:32Speaker 04

  Because she then filed, you've become embroiled in just a legal battle.

• 16:38Speaker 05

  Yeah, she filed a parenting plan, uh, which I couldn't believe and was in shock that I had to respond to it via the court system. Otherwise, uh, they would submit a default judgment and most times they would assume, the majority of the time, people filing parenting plans are actually pregnant. So I was gonna throw away the paperwork and then I had someone on the legal side of things that said, uh, no, you can't do that. You need to respond. And I went into the court and I, he, the judge asked me why I was, you know, countering this, you know, parenting plan. And I said, because, uh, there are no children. He said, you mean, like, they haven't been born yet? I said, no, there's no child or children, like, they

• 17:20Speaker 05

  don't exist. And he just looked at me, he's like, are you, are you being serious? Are you messing with me? I said, no, I'm telling you, she's making all this up. And he was just perplexed. And he goes, okay, well, I'll push this up the court. So he like, basically just like pushed it into another realm of the court. Uh, but it was, yeah, I'm like, I felt ridiculous. The whole thing was ridiculous. I'm like, I don't know how to respond to this. She's making it up. How do I prove this? And that's, you know, where we end up going with it was, okay, well, let's get her to prove pregnancy because, I mean, that's how I get out of this, you know, because this, this is something that now she's gonna hold over me. And how far is she gonna take this? And, you know, as we've just recently uncovered,

• 18:02Speaker 05

  obviously through the timeline of this podcast, like, she took it public. So then it became a, I need to prove to the public now, a court of public opinion, I have to be able to prove that this is all a lie.

• 18:14Speaker 06

  Yeah. I want to jump in and just say that from the time that she told Clayton she was pregnant, to the time that she filed in the court in Arizona, it was only about eight weeks. So she was technically still in her first trimester. And as a woman, you know, that most people don't tell people that they're even pregnant until after the first trimester. Twelve weeks, really? Right. Yeah. So I think that was another interesting part of this, that from the time that she found out she was pregnant, to the time that it was filed to establish paternity in the court, there's only eight weeks.

• 18:46Speaker 05

  Well, I think what's interesting too, for one, you can tell she has the time I was better, better than I do at this point. For me, I mean, I just, it just feels like a blur of three years. You know, it's like the emotions are so strong, but I, I don't know exactly on what dates these things happen. Um, it just felt like it all was smushed together, but the other side of it too. Um, you see the ignorance of a man to, you know, people go, oh, come on, day 11 and she's pregnant. Now, why would you even take that up and believe that in the first place? Um, but because I was Googling, I mean, as a man, I had no idea. I'm like, I don't know how to fact check this or, and I wasn't bringing it to my family originally. So this is just me living this experience and I'm just Googling and Google was like, yeah, I mean, technically someone could miss their period and

• 19:30Speaker 05

  like show, show signs of pregnancy or be test positive as soon as like 10 days. So I was like, well, that we're on day 11. So it was just one of these things where at first I'm fighting this alone. Obviously I don't want this to get out to the public. Um, but it's, you know, there's like, I also don't understand what I'm up against because I'm like, I don't know. I mean, I'm a guy. Like I don't know if this is possible. And so I'm just constantly Googling and I think she was too, though. I think she was also, you know, doing her homework.

• 20:00Speaker 04

  Yeah. We do often deal with stories of people who are intimate partners or relationships that have been built over a number of years. This is about two strangers meeting. How did that affect you emotionally, having your life completely upended? Like, do you think about if I just didn't respond to that LinkedIn message? Like, where does your mind go?

• 20:24Speaker 05

  Yeah. You know, it depends when, if you asked that question six months ago or even three months ago and as opposed to now, I mean, I've, I've found the silver lining in all of this. Um, but it certainly messed with me. I mean, I, I lost a lot of trust, um, and, and people. I mean, I just became very protective of my energy, which I needed to be more protective, but I almost like overcompensated. Uh, but it's, it's something where, uh, I struggled, uh, to function on a daily basis because it.

• 20:56Speaker 05

  I really felt, I mean, very quickly, I realized this individual was looking to destroy me emotionally and render me useless. I mean, take me out of my ability to be able to function and work my jobs. And, you know, it just felt very suffocating. And this person also had time on their hands. I mean, she was working around the clock. I'd get emails just all throughout the day. And as people find out, she doesn't have a job. So she made this her full-time job.

• 21:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:22Speaker 05

  And it was very suffocating. Yeah, it was just hard to go about my daily life when like you have this happening in the background. And I mean, a lot of us can relate to this. If you have, you know, someone that's, you know, abusive, or somebody that has some news that they're like, I'm gonna, you know, share this news with, like, or they're threatening you in some capacity. It's basically the thing that's on your mind at all times.

• 21:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's stress.

• 21:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's just constantly weighing on you. So no matter what else you're doing in life, in any moment of silence, you just go right back into that, that box, you know, that I so hard, like, tried to compartmentalize. I just pushed everything in. I'm like, I have to go about my life, but this box exists. But any moment of silence, you know, where things slow down in life, you just go right back into the box. You're like, I can't help this because this is out of my control, too.

• 22:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:13Speaker 05

  You know, there's somebody on this other side that's plotting, and you don't know what their next move is gonna be.

• 22:19Speaker 04

  Have you, like, envisioned what life would be like when you're done dealing with Laura Owens? Or do you feel like it's always gonna be there?

• 22:32Speaker 05

  I'll be able to let go of a lot of anger. There's, there's a lot of anger that's rooted in this. Not only just at her, but within myself. And I have to give myself grace. But I, I do see, obviously, that this was all brought on, pardon me, partly of my own doing because of the actions I took. But even leading up to it, I mean, I was utilizing marijuana at the time to cope with the stress from the reality television experience that I just recently realized I still have not gotten over. I still harbor a lot of anger

• 23:13Speaker 05

  from that whole experience. And so I, there's parts of me that say, yeah, I mean, if you were... Able to have healed from these experiences, you wouldn't have found yourself back in this this cycle. You wouldn't have subjected yourself to this kind of energy.

• 23:28Speaker 12

  Yeah.

• 23:29Speaker 05

  But you did because you're not healed to the degree where you wouldn't place your energy in a person like her. And you know, that's that's something that I I do understand is like, hey, you could have avoided this, but ultimately you were what you were when you first met her, which was a damaged individual.

• 23:48Speaker 12

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• 25:20Speaker 09

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• 25:42Speaker 08

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• 25:49Speaker 13

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• 26:33Speaker 13

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• 27:04Speaker 04

  One of the things that we do on Betrayal is every storyteller works with a mental health provider or a therapist, life coach, in each season to unpack a certain part of their story. And a little bit of a preview for season five, as Saskia is working with Jessica Baum, they do, Jess specializes in a psychotherapy, which is really understanding, like, it's inner child work. And, you know, when I met Saskia, she really wanted to unpack her childhood and really figure out what is her relationship with her self-worth and how she understands love and validation that ultimately led her to Mike Leffinggood. And we hear those conversations in her therapy sessions.

• 27:48Speaker 04

  But it is, like, it is important because as much as we can't control Laura Owens, we can't control Mike Leffinggood, all we can do is really look internally at ourselves and say, it's not our fault, but how did I get here?

• 28:02Speaker 13

  Yeah.

• 28:03Speaker 04

  And it's just a really fascinating conversation, and it's work to be done. And like, to do that work and to have that perspective, you should be proud of yourself.

• 28:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, and I appreciate that. I also just understand that, yeah, I mean, my environment has obviously influenced me and I've also went back into my childhood and I've seen why I've become the way that I have and why I take certain actions and subject myself to certain people. Maybe there was a lack of something in my childhood that I'm seeking and there are certain things that I've uncovered. But ultimately too, I think it's just as important in order to heal from that and overcome it. You have to accept accountability that while you were doing the best with what you could, you are still someone, like you made decisions to put yourself in those, in a position like that. It doesn't make it right, doesn't make

• 28:54Speaker 05

  it right that someone took advantage of me or anybody else. But there is the, okay, hey, I want to better myself, so I need to understand that like, I found my way here, but I can also take myself out of it. I mean, we're all doing our best, right?

• 29:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:07Speaker 05

  So there's no victim blaming that should be had. It's more just, hey, I am a human being for the better and for the worse. I've made decisions in my life, my environment's impacted me. But I also want to be a better human. So how can I make sure that I don't find myself in this position again? You know, what steps do I need to take to become stronger and more resilient and just have more self-love? Because I believe that me with more self-love, again, would have never have interacted with somebody like her.

• 29:38Speaker 06

  Yeah. I think something too that's so interesting from my perspective is the way that his emotions have shifted over.

• 29:47Speaker 04

  Oh, you've seen it?

• 29:48Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah. Over the last nine months, it's, you know, there's times where he's really angry. There's times where he's sad. There's times where he's willing to forgive. And then there's times where he's like, no, I'm actually really mad. So to see this rollercoaster of emotion over the past nine to 10 months has been interesting from my perspective.

• 30:06Speaker 04

  We talk about that a lot on Betrayal, about how progress is in a straight line and like healing isn't linear. And sometimes you're just going around because you're meeting the experience at different phases of your own healing journey and your own, like you're reading, you're engaging in certain books and podcasters and like material to better yourself. And so it makes you look at your experience in a different way, you know? You were talking about, what are you reading right now?

• 30:33Speaker 05

  The artist.

• 30:34Speaker 04

  The artist adoption. Probably not the best position, but but like you're constantly, you're trying to, but you're working through your experience. And so it's gonna bring up complicated feelings about different choices and the different fallout. The the last thing I want to say about the betrayal, what what I think the audience is really gonna relate to is your journey with the justice system, because this is something that we cover a lot.

• 30:59Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 31:00Speaker 04

  You know, I deal with storytellers that, you know, despite fear, despite being in a really dangerous situation, they couldn't get a protection from abuse. They really had to fight tooth and nail to get any acknowledgement from the court system. And so what is complicated about your story as someone who's actually being able to navigate the criminal justice system pretty seamlessly and in ways that our storytellers actually struggle to, which is gonna be really hard for some of our listeners to listen to, but it's fascinating. What is it like to be in a courtroom, like in the scene that you were just telling me about?

• 31:40Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 31:41Speaker 04

  It's a serious place.

• 31:42Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 31:43Speaker 04

  With serious people.

• 31:43Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 31:45Speaker 04

  But what are we even talking about here? There's not even a real pregnancy. It's absurd.

• 31:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 31:50Speaker 04

  Like, that duality is mind bending.

• 31:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, I I had a little level of confidence early on, probably because watching so much Law and Order growing up. So I, as people found out, early on, I had so much confidence that I self represented, which I didn't.

• 32:08Speaker 04

  Oh, boy.

• 32:08Speaker 05

  I didn't do for too long.

• 32:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:10Speaker 05

  But I showed up with my glasses and my tucked in shirt and my briefcase and.

• 32:16Speaker 04

  He binged suits. And was like, I got this. Yeah.

• 32:19Speaker 05

  And I, but I ultimately thought, hey, look, like, this is a ridiculous claim and I'm the one that's telling the truth. I mean, all I have to do is just speak my truth. So I did have a level of confidence, which, again, I would also say, based on, like, I played, you know, D one, Division One football. I was on the batch, like, I was in high stress environments. So to me, I had a level of comfort and confidence going into the courtroom and truth on my side. That being said, I realized very quickly that I I could not keep up with the. Jargon, you know, the court jargon that I was like, oh, wait, I'm over here raising my hand. I'm like, I don't even know if I, can I speak? Can I not? It was a surreal experience. And obviously, I was like, look, I have to take this seriously because I could get caught

• 33:02Speaker 05

  up in a technicality, even though I'm telling the truth. I could get caught up in some technicality where she could end up then, you know, winning.

• 33:10Speaker 04

  Right. And it's a really hard lesson to learn, especially about our justice system, that sometimes the last thing that matters is actually the truth.

• 33:19Speaker 05

  Right. They have, again, like, there's technicalities here and there. And you start seeing these arguments be brought up, like, by her counsel, where I'm like, that's ridiculous. But they're just trying to stick on one little exception. And it's like, but that could blow the whole thing up. If you have, if you have one little hole in the argument, they can just blow that up and then say the rest of it is no longer usable. And that is what really, I realized, I'm like, this is actually very, like, you have to be so specific and you really can't have any flaws in your arguments. And so, obviously, I have legal representation now, and that's helped out a lot. And I got that, you know, because of the privilege that I've had of being on reality television and being a celebrity

• 34:00Speaker 05

  to some degree. Most people don't have that luxury. If I wasn't a celebrity, I wouldn't have had the support. And obviously, the previous victims, they did not have that support. I think that is something that, you know, rightfully has agitated some people. They go, this is, you know, lucky for you. I mean, because I wish I could have had support. And I'm very blessed for that. But it is unfortunate that if you have some level of status, you have a better chance of navigating the court system. I think there are a lot of victims out there that are afraid because they don't have the financial resources. They don't have the legal representation. And it can be a very scary thing when you go in front of a judge and, you know, you don't know what words to say. And all of a sudden,

• 34:45Speaker 05

  you're up against someone's legal counsel that has money. And they just start hammering you with these, this, this, these technicalities. And yeah, I mean, again, I watched the previous victims get run out of court because she had more money, more resources.

• 35:01Speaker 04

  Has she bankrupted any of them?

• 35:03Speaker 06

  Like it could have easily.

• 35:05Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, she's, I mean, she's cost them thousands and thousands of dollars. We're talking sixty, eighty thousand dollars. That's just money that's gone poof. Uh, and so, yeah, I mean, maybe not bankrupted them, but, but has financially harmed them. I mean, that's money that could have been, you know, put anywhere else.

• 35:22Speaker 06

  They both have children, so. I was gonna say like a college fund. And that was, that's a conversation that I had with one of the other victims was, do I want to fight this?

• 35:32Speaker 06

  Or do I want to use this money for my kids' futures? And that was a really hard conversation. Yeah. What do you guys want the betrayal audience to know about your show?

• 35:45Speaker 06

  I would like the betrayal audience to know that the story is, got the similar elements of the betrayal show. It's got the manipulation, the, the fraud, the deception, all of those things. But as I've been working on this project, I think the best part has been meeting and connecting with all of the people who have lived it. I think Clayton and I have talked for probably over thirty hours on tape. Um, I've really gotten to know Clayton. I've really gotten to know some of the other victims. And hearing their stories and seeing what they've been through has been really eye opening.

• 36:28Speaker 06

  And also, you know, a lot of times you think it's just one victim and, you know, it affected Clayton's life, but it's the collateral damage of everyone that's involved and the wave of destruction that goes along with it. That is really the most impactful part to me. Because you can see how one woman's choices really affect so many people.

• 36:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, and to piggyback off that, I would say, um, I think what this story really highlights is the power of community. And I, I hope it inspires those that listen to find their own communities and, and understand that nothing should be fought alone. You know, individuals that go through something similar, a lot of times they carry a lot of shame. And I was certainly in that same position. And I remember when it first went public, I was like, this is going to ruin me. And actually going public was the greatest thing that ever happened because there was an army of people that were willing to rally around me.

• 37:28Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 37:28Speaker 05

  But I didn't necessarily even need an army. It would have just, you know, having two or three people in my corner, I mean, makes all the difference. So I think we all are fighting our own battles and a lot of times, you know, people that are listening to these true crime series, I think a lot of people, they, they're able to sympathize. They've went through, they know someone who's went through something similar, they've experienced it. This story, I really think, just highlights the power of that community and that anyone that's going through something similar knows of someone going through something similar. Keep in mind how powerful your support can be for somebody and help them get through a dark time.

• 38:03Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being here today and sharing a little bit about your story. Where can people get your podcast?

• 38:09Speaker 06

  The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, anywhere you listen to podcasts. And a five star rating goes a long way. So new episodes every Thursday.

• 38:20Speaker 08

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