Samantha | Betrayal Weekly

A Google search leads Samantha to a truth she never saw coming. And once she starts digging, she can't stop. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal team by emailing us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. You can also find us on Instagram at @betrayalpod https://www.instagram.com/betrayalpod/ and @glasspodcasts https://www.instagram.com/glasspodcasts/. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. If you are currently in crisis, please reach out to organizations that offer immediate support. We are including a few US-based resources here: 988 Lifeline. https://988lifeline.org/ If you or someone you know is in crisis or need to talk to someone immediately, please call or text 988 – the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline available 24/7/365. National Domestic Violence Hotline https://www.thehotline.org/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=domestic_violence. They offer 24/7 phone and chat support to help you create a personalized safety plan and connect you with local support. For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org/betrayal. You can also get free, confidential, 24/7 support through RAINN’s National Sexual Assault Hotline. Text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE. Every state has a domestic violence coalition. If you’re looking for help in the US, search the web for your state’s domestic violence coalition. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Andrea Gunning?

  Hi, everyone. We have some exciting news to share. ABC News Studios has turned Caroline Borrega's story from Betrayal Season Four into a docu-series. You'll get to meet the people involved, you'll hear from people who have never spoken before, and you get to see where this story took place. We are so proud and excited to share it with you all. Stream Betrayal: Dirty Secrets now on Hulu or Hulu for Disney+. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. You know the saying, "Knowledge is power"? Well, it's a lot more than that. Knowledge can be growth, security, opportunity. And no one knows that better than Southern New Hampshire University. That's why they offer over 200 online degree programs designed to help you reach your goals.

• 0:46Andrea Gunning?

  Set yourself up for success, or get ready to pivot into something new. No matter your program, you'll learn practical, career-focused skills you can use on the job. And don't worry, getting your degree online doesn't mean doing it alone. Southern New Hampshire University has some of the best student support in online education. From day one to graduation, you'll have friendly, knowledgeable people to help you with everything, from applying and financial aid, to tutoring and career development. At Southern New Hampshire University, knowledge can be life-changing. Get started at SNHU.edu/Betrayal. That's SNHU.edu/Betrayal.

• 1:27Andrea Gunning?

  Listen, we're all trying to save for something. For me, I love to save up for a really nice vacation and maybe put some money aside for a new car. It's always nice having something to look forward to, and knowing you're actually making progress towards those bigger goals feels really good. But in reality, it can be hard to actually save money. But that's what's great about the One Pay app. It makes saving money easy. First, you earn 3% cash back on up to $150. You choose categories like Walmart, gas, or dining, and then get rewarded when you spend in those categories. So you're rewarded for what you're already buying. With high-yield savings, your money keeps growing. So download the One Pay app or visit onepay.com for banking that gives you more for what matters.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  One Pay is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by Coastal Community Bank or Lead Bank, members FDIC. Cash back is earned as points. Go to onepay.com/rewards/terms for redemption options and additional details.

• 2:27Andrea Gunning?

  Some people never expected their lives to change in an instant. Most of us don't. That's why I want you to know about Saber Smart Pepper Spray. Yes, it helps protect you, but what makes it different is the connected app. If you're ever forced to use it in an emergency, it can alert your emergency contacts and share your location, so the people who love you aren't left searching. They're not left guessing. They know where to start. Visit saberred.com/Betrayal. That's saberred.com/Betrayal.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  It was like not being able to look away from a car accident. I couldn't look away. I couldn't put it down. It was almost like reading a novel, but this was my real life.

• 3:22Andrea Gunning?

  I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything.

• 3:33Andrea Gunning?

  Samantha Gray is a professor of psychology. Over the years, she's taught a variety of classes.

• 3:40Speaker 02

  I was teaching couples and family therapy. I taught adolescent development. I taught an undergrad class called Psychology and Technology.

• 3:51Andrea Gunning?

  She got her start in the academic world exploring how tech shapes our personal identity and how we relate to each other. Samantha has always loved technology. When she was growing up in the 80s, her favorite toy was a Whiz Kit.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  It was literally a laptop. It had a little handle, so I would carry it like it was a little briefcase. That kind of went along with my vibe.

• 4:15Andrea Gunning?

  Her vibe, which Samantha describes as...

• 4:18Speaker 02

  Opinionated, inquisitive, and bookish.

• 4:23Andrea Gunning?

  Whenever she was around her more rowdy cousins...

• 4:26Speaker 02

  I was just kind of like patting my pearls, like, "Oh, my! They're going to play in the dirt? Like, oh, no." I had my little purse, and I was right at the adults' table.

• 4:39Andrea Gunning?

  Samantha wanted to be the first in her family to go to college.

• 4:43Speaker 02

  I'd read the newspaper with my dad, and we'd watch the nightly news together.

• 4:48Andrea Gunning?

  Samantha's dad was in the military. Growing up, they moved a lot.

• 4:52Speaker 02

  I was born in Chicago, but then we moved to Texas, and then Georgia, and then we moved to Germany, and then California.

• 5:02Andrea Gunning?

  Finally, her family settled down in Indianapolis, Indiana. In high school, Samantha floated between a few social groups.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  I wasn't in the super nerdy group. I wasn't in the cool kids group. I was right there in the middle. I was the editor for my high school newspaper.

• 5:21Andrea Gunning?

  She wasn't really into high school sports, unless she was writing about a game for the school paper.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  We got passes to go to the football games and report from the sidelines. I was like VIP coming through.

• 5:37Speaker 02

  My access to the cool kids was having to interview players.

• 5:41Andrea Gunning?

  One of those cool kids was a guy we're going to call Michael.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  Michael was popular. He was a football player. He was tall and big. Everyone called him Big Michael.

• 5:54Andrea Gunning?

  Michael had moved out of his parents' house and lived on his own. He already seemed like an adult, and Samantha admired that.

• 6:03Speaker 02

  He was already kind of grown, and maybe that helped him be the cool guy, because he had his stuff together.

• 6:11Andrea Gunning?

  They both stayed in Indianapolis for college, but they weren't in touch.

• 6:17Andrea Gunning?

  A few years into college, a guy Samantha was talking to invited her to a house party at his place. He lived with a roommate. When Samantha got to the party, her date went off to smoke with his friends, leaving Samantha alone.

• 6:33Speaker 02

  I didn't smoke. I didn't drink. I felt uncomfortable.

• 6:38Andrea Gunning?

  Samantha wandered through the party, feeling out of place. Then she walked past the door to the garage. She immediately recognized Michael. It turned out, he was her date's roommate.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  He had converted the garage to a game room. He had speakers hooked up in there.

• 6:58Andrea Gunning?

  Michael and some of his friends were hanging out on a couch in the garage, playing video games.

• 7:03Speaker 02

  So I was like, "Okay, like, video games. Like, there's a targeted activity with these people in this room."

• 7:10Andrea Gunning?

  Samantha made her way over to the couch. Michael saw her approaching and immediately made room for her to sit next to him. He handed her a controller and showed her how to play.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  He's very charismatic, very gregarious, charming. I remember having a great time.

• 7:29Andrea Gunning?

  They took turns playing a golf video game and laughed at each other's mistakes. Hanging out with Michael, Samantha finally felt relaxed at the party. After a while, Samantha got up to head back into the main house.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  You had to go down a step to get to the living room. I was coming out of the garage, and I fell off that step. I hyperextended my knee, and the whole party got quiet.

• 7:58Andrea Gunning?

  Everyone stopped and stared at her. She was so embarrassed.

• 8:02Speaker 02

  I was in searing pain. I was like, "Let me just go home and get out of here. Everything will be fine." I went to stand up, and I couldn't bear weight on it.

• 8:12Andrea Gunning?

  She couldn't get up. She looked around the room, waiting for someone to help her. She spotted her date, but he just seemed embarrassed on her behalf. But then, she felt hands lifting her up. It was Michael.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  Michael went into straight action. He came over. He's like, "Can you stand on it?" We tried that. I couldn't.

• 8:34Andrea Gunning?

  When it became clear that she couldn't stand on her own, Michael didn't hesitate.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  He literally scooped me into his arms in front of my date, takes me outside, carrying me, puts me into his car, buckles me in, drove me to the hospital.

• 8:55Andrea Gunning?

  Samantha was awestruck. Michael was taking care of her like it was the most natural thing in the world.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  I thought highly of him and was grateful, because my date, I don't think, had a car or a driver's license. He literally swept me off my feet.

• 9:13Andrea Gunning?

  The next day, she got a text from Michael. He had gotten her number from someone at the party, so he could check in on her. He asked her how her knee was doing.

• 9:23Speaker 02

  After that, it was like we'd never stopped talking.

• 9:28Andrea Gunning?

  She learned more about his life. Even though they were young, Michael was already a dad. He had two daughters with his ex-girlfriend. He was balancing parenting with going to college. This didn't scare Samantha away. Michael was responsible and seemed like a great dad.

• 9:47Speaker 02

  It just felt like we had so much to talk about.

• 9:50Andrea Gunning?

  Their conversations became more and more flirty. Michael invited her back to his house to play video games. This time, it was just the two of them.

• 10:00Speaker 02

  We had our first kiss at his house, in that garage, pretending to play video games.

• 10:09Andrea Gunning?

  After that, they started going on dates. In a lot of ways, Michael and Samantha were pretty different. But the more they hung out, the more they found things they had in common.

• 10:19Speaker 02

  We were two kids coming from families that we were the first generation to go to college. He was innately intelligent. He was quick-witted, for sure. And so I think we kind of connected over both wanting an academic life, like to go to college and to talk about the classes that we were in.

• 10:42Andrea Gunning?

  Whenever she was with Michael, life felt brighter and more fun.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  I was definitely head over heels. Michael could do no wrong in my eyes. He was so kind to me. He was hilarious.

• 11:00Andrea Gunning?

  Six months later, they made their relationship official. When people from their high school saw them out together, they were confused. Michael was super social in high school. Everyone remembered him. But Samantha had flown under the radar.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  I'd be standing right next to him and they'd be like, "Michael, what's up, Big Mike?" They would not acknowledge me and I'd realize they didn't know that we were together. And so then, when he would bring me into the conversation, they're like, "Oh, hey, how do you know Mike? Did you go to our high school?" And I was like, "Yep."

• 11:39Andrea Gunning?

  People seemed to think they were an odd couple, but neither of them cared about what other people thought.

• 11:44Speaker 02

  We would drive up from Indianapolis to Lake Michigan. There was this gorgeous pier and we'd go out on the pier and we would pack like a picnic.

• 11:54Andrea Gunning?

  This was more than just a summer fling. They continued dating throughout college. As the seasons changed, their relationship stayed steady and grew stronger.

• 12:04Speaker 02

  A lot of things weren't very traditional. I didn't really cook and clean. He did the cooking.

• 12:13Andrea Gunning?

  Another untraditional thing they did is that while they were both in college, they decided to get married at the courthouse. One, because they were in love. And two, because being married would help Samantha qualify for financial aid on her tuition. The arrangement worked for both of them. Samantha and Michael made just enough money to scrape by.

• 12:35Speaker 02

  We were really struggling. We only get gas at a gas station called Speedway and we'd save up our points. There were times where that was dinner, like hot dogs, nachos, whatever.

• 12:49Andrea Gunning?

  In her senior year, Samantha started applying to PhD programs.

• 12:53Speaker 02

  And I got into a PhD program straight out of undergrad.

• 12:59Andrea Gunning?

  The program was in Tennessee. It would be a big change, but this was more than just an academic opportunity. There was a lot at stake.

• 13:08Speaker 02

  When I got into a PhD program, it was this amazing opportunity to really change our lives.

• 13:14Andrea Gunning?

  So Samantha and Michael decided to move to Tennessee for a few years. Michael's daughter stayed in Indiana with their mom. It was a big sacrifice for him to be away from his kids, but they knew they were building a better life for all of them. Starting over was challenging.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  Grad school was tough. It was very obvious that my peers had backgrounds that were different than mine. They would talk about their vacation backpacking through Europe or whatever. We qualified and were on food stamps.

• 13:53Andrea Gunning?

  Even though their lifestyle wasn't glamorous, they were happy.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  He was so fun. He was this bigger-than-life character. Like, he wanted to grab life and live it. And so even though we didn't have a lot of money, we were also in a new part of the country. We were in eastern Tennessee, which butts up to the Smoky Mountains. We would pack a picnic and go to the Smoky Mountains.

• 14:21Andrea Gunning?

  Michael always reminded Samantha that life wasn't supposed to be one long sprint. They had to take time to slow down and enjoy where they were. Sitting by his side, the Smoky Mountains wrapping around them, she remembered how far they had come.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  Here we are with this fresh mountain air and like, here you are in a PhD program. Things are looking up. We're still poor, but gosh darn it, like, we're just on the cusp of things being good.

• 14:49Andrea Gunning?

  Samantha and Michael dreamed of having a child one day. Michael was already supporting his two daughters back in Indiana, and they just didn't have the money to afford to raise a child of their own.

• 15:01Speaker 02

  I knew we did not have money, but I did want to have a kid. I still wanted to dream about it and we did. He was also a big dreamer.

• 15:13Andrea Gunning?

  So in between late-night classes and long shifts at work, they allowed themselves to dream.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  I remember us sitting at the computer in the hallway at our house. I opened a Microsoft Word document and we created this list of baby names. If I had a girl, I always wanted one of these gender-neutral names. Names that were like Andy or Peyton.

• 15:43Andrea Gunning?

  There was one baby name that was at the top of Samantha's list. We're going to use a pseudonym that shares the same unique style Samantha loves.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  Ellington.

• 15:55Andrea Gunning?

  She didn't know any other kids with that name. Michael loved it too. At this point in her life, having a kid was still far away, but she hoped that dream might one day be within reach.

• 16:31Andrea Gunning?

  If you've ever tried to find a psychiatrist who takes your insurance, you know how frustrating it can be. Long wait lists, no availability, or finding out they don't accept your insurance at all. That's why I'm excited to tell you about Talkiatory. Talkiatory is a 100% online psychiatry practice that provides comprehensive evaluations, diagnoses, and ongoing medication management for conditions like ADHD, anxiety, depression, and more. Unlike therapy-only platforms, Talkiatory connects you with licensed medical providers who can diagnose mental health conditions and prescribe medication when it's appropriate. Their 800-plus clinicians are in-network with major insurers, and getting started is simple.

• 17:15Andrea Gunning?

  Just complete a short online assessment, get matched with a clinician who fits your needs, and you can schedule your first appointment in days, not months. Plus, you'll continue seeing the same provider, so your treatment can grow with you over time.

• 17:30Andrea Gunning?

  Head to talkiatory.com/betrayal to complete this short assessment and get matched with an in-network psychiatrist in just a few minutes. That's T-A-L-K-I-A-T-R-Y.com/betrayal to get matched in minutes. Talkiatory.com/betrayal. Talkiatory.com/betrayal.

• 17:51Andrea Gunning?

  One thing I've learned from producing true crime these past few years is that life can change in an instant. Most people never expect to find themselves in a dangerous situation. They're heading home from work, walking the dog, meeting a friend, traveling alone, and they assume it's just another ordinary day, until it isn't. That's why I want you to know about Saber Smart Pepper Spray. Yes, it's designed to help protect you, but what makes it different is the connected app. If you're ever forced to use it in an emergency, it can alert your emergency contacts and share your location. So when every second matters, the people who care about you most aren't left wondering where you are. They're not left searching, they're not left guessing, they know where to start.

• 18:35Andrea Gunning?

  We can't always predict the unexpected, but we can be prepared for it. Learn more at saberred.com/betrayal. That's saberred.com/betrayal. You know the saying, "Knowledge is power"? Well, it's a lot more than that. Knowledge can be growth, security, opportunity. And no one knows that better than Southern New Hampshire University. That's why they offer over 200 online degree programs designed to help you reach your goals. Set yourself up for success or get ready to pivot into something new. No matter your program, you'll learn practical, career-focused skills you can use on the job. And don't worry, getting your degree online doesn't mean doing it alone.

• 19:17Andrea Gunning?

  Southern New Hampshire University has some of the best student support and online education. From day one to graduation, you'll have friendly, knowledgeable people to help you with everything, from applying and financial aid to tutoring and career development. At Southern New Hampshire University, knowledge can be life-changing. Get started at SNHU.edu/betrayal. That's SNHU.edu/betrayal.

• 19:46Andrea Gunning?

  Even though they didn't have a lot of money, Samantha and Michael were happy. They were in love and they had big plans for their future. After years of hard work, Samantha got her PhD in psychology. She got an internship and then a postdoctoral fellowship. And not just any fellowship.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  I got to do my postdoc with Cambridge Hospital in Massachusetts. That is a Harvard Med Fellowship.

• 20:13Andrea Gunning?

  Walking across campus was a real pinch me moment for Samantha.

• 20:18Speaker 02

  Here I am with a school ID for Harvard and I'm going to Harvard libraries. I'm on Harvard campus. For someone from my background, never would I have thought that I would have had any opportunity like that.

• 20:35Andrea Gunning?

  They moved to a town 30 minutes outside of Boston. It was the start of a new chapter. Michael had a steady job and Samantha was chasing her dreams. In their free time, they explored their new city together.

• 20:49Speaker 02

  We were enjoying being on an ocean. Like we are Midwesterners. We got an apartment that was walking distance to the beach. It was grand. We started to eat better. It was like we had just enough money to enjoy a few of the finer things.

• 21:07Andrea Gunning?

  Gas station hot dogs were replaced by fancier options.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  Lobster rolls on the beach. Yeah, it was just, it was so cool.

• 21:17Andrea Gunning?

  But that winter in Boston was bitter.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  It was like the snowpocalypse. And even Bostonians were telling me, they're like, no Samantha, like this is not normal. We cannot believe that this is your one year in Boston.

• 21:31Andrea Gunning?

  Michael was working a retail job with Verizon. When the temperatures dropped below zero, he still had to go into work. Then one day, he got sick.

• 21:42Speaker 02

  He caught pneumonia and was hospitalized.

• 21:48Andrea Gunning?

  In the hospital, while they were treating Michael's pneumonia, the doctors noticed something even more alarming. Michael had heart failure.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  And they were like, how has no one told you that you have heart failure before? Cause this is pretty advanced. There's no way no one told you that you had major heart issues. And he was like, oh, someone may have said something, but it didn't seem this serious.

• 22:15Andrea Gunning?

  Michael hadn't told Samantha anything about this. Even now, he was downplaying it. But the doctors were clear. He needed to start treatment immediately.

• 22:28Andrea Gunning?

  After he caught pneumonia, Michael never fully recovered.

• 22:32Speaker 02

  It was a stark difference to go from walking around and enjoying the fall to pretty quickly having a significant disability. His heart couldn't keep up, so he'd run out of breath.

• 22:48Andrea Gunning?

  Michael was forced to slow down. He'd kept his heart issues under wraps for years. But now, they were impossible to ignore.

• 22:58Speaker 02

  He just became more sick and that was the first time that I realized that his health would become a big part of our lives.

• 23:06Andrea Gunning?

  After a year in Boston, Samantha's postdoc fellowship ended. She and Michael moved home to Indianapolis.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  I was able to secure a 10-year track job with the University of Indianapolis.

• 23:18Andrea Gunning?

  It was a dream job. She'd get to teach classes in psychology and technology. She would even run her own lab.

• 23:26Speaker 02

  My lab was about social technology and communication.

• 23:31Andrea Gunning?

  But Michael's doctors were worried about the move.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  They were like, when you get out of our care, you absolutely need to take this seriously when you get to Indiana. Like you have to immediately connect with a team of doctors.

• 23:46Andrea Gunning?

  When they got settled back in Indiana, Michael's health got worse. He was living with advanced heart failure. It was a scary diagnosis.

• 23:58Speaker 02

  I think he was trying to put on a strong face for everyone else. But behind the curtain, he definitely couldn't hide it from me.

• 24:06Andrea Gunning?

  Soon, even basic tasks like getting around the house became challenging for Michael.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  There were times I had to help him to the bathroom. The fluid on his legs was so great that sometimes he couldn't stand. I was like 5'2" and he was over 300 pounds. I ended up hurting my own back trying to help him. It was very difficult to be a caregiver.

• 24:33Andrea Gunning?

  It was a stressful time. Samantha had started working long hours as a professor. In her time off, she was caring for Michael.

• 24:42Speaker 02

  It almost made my love for him grow because I was worried about his health and him not being around.

• 24:50Andrea Gunning?

  It became clear that Michael was going to need a heart transplant. But planning for that procedure was a long and complicated process. They needed a more immediate treatment to keep him stable. So Michael's doctors started him on a medication that flowed through a 24-hour IV.

• 25:08Speaker 02

  He wore a backpack and we hid the pump in his little backpack. It was to keep him comfortable, but it was so terrifying. Like you had to keep the batteries loaded so that this medicine would continuously flow. If it stopped, he could have died.

• 25:26Andrea Gunning?

  It was terrifying and their dreams for the future were put on pause.

• 25:31Speaker 02

  We were still relatively young. Going to the cardiologist every two weeks wasn't on our to-do list before. It was a mess trying to take care of his physical health and trying to get tenure. It was extremely stressful.

• 25:48Andrea Gunning?

  Michael's doctors advised him not to work. Samantha was making enough money to cover their bills and any strenuous physical effort was too much of a risk for his heart. But Michael did not take this advice well.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  He was not someone who enjoyed being told no or having things taken away. He's always been a competitive person. He was an athlete in his younger years. He's always considered himself healthy and able-bodied.

• 26:17Andrea Gunning?

  Against the advice of his doctors, he kept working.

• 26:21Speaker 02

  I was telling him like, Michael, sit down. I can pay the bills. All you need to do is focus on your health. I was agreeing with the doctors. I saw his condition. The evidence was very clear cut. And I was like, what if your medicine runs out? What if you have a stroke or something happens?

• 26:45Andrea Gunning?

  Michael insisted that he felt fine.

• 26:48Speaker 02

  He was on a lot of prednisone, which I called the duct tape of medicine. Just a general steroid that makes you feel great. That's how sick he was, but he didn't understand. They're trying to keep me comfortable. He only understood, I feel great.

• 27:02Andrea Gunning?

  No matter what she said, Samantha could not get Michael to stop working. He said they needed the money.

• 27:09Speaker 02

  I couldn't understand why he was so money hungry.

• 27:17Andrea Gunning?

  Michael's health made other aspects of their relationship more challenging.

• 27:22Speaker 02

  There was a difference in our level of physical intimacy that came along with some of the woes of being a heart failure patient.

• 27:30Andrea Gunning?

  Things were hard. They were stressed about money, work, intimacy, and the future.

• 27:37Speaker 02

  Everything we were going through felt like the pamphlets you would read in the lobby at the cardiologist's office for families going through heart transplant. It felt like financial stress, relationship stress, intimacy issues.

• 27:52Andrea Gunning?

  All the while, Michael kept coming to her with ways to make more money. One day, he told her he'd found a lucrative business model, a trucking company.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Bread box type trucks that just delivered appliances for big box stores like Lowe's, Home Depot, stuff like that.

• 28:11Andrea Gunning?

  He'd always wanted to be an entrepreneur. Samantha already knew she couldn't stop Michael from working. So if he'd found something he was excited about, she wouldn't stand in his way.

• 28:23Speaker 02

  In this weird time where I felt like he was losing himself a little bit, losing his identity, I did want him to be happy and I wanted to support him. I was like, okay, I'll get on board because he's going to do it anyway.

• 28:37Andrea Gunning?

  Michael enrolled in a training program to learn about the trucking industry. The trainings were extensive and took place in North Carolina.

• 28:46Speaker 02

  It would be anywhere from three days to a week. So he'd get a hotel and do the training and then come back.

• 28:54Andrea Gunning?

  Whenever he was gone, Samantha worried about him. But at the time, she was working a lot too.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  I was working as a 10-year track professor and it is so much work. Teaching a class for the first time and having to prepare the materials. I was at the office until 1, 2 in the morning.

• 29:15Andrea Gunning?

  With all the travel and hotels, attending these trainings became expensive. But Michael found a solution. He had a friend in the program who would let him stay at his house.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  I was like, that's very kind of them. Are you sure?

• 29:31Andrea Gunning?

  Michael assured her that it was totally fine and that his friend was happy to host him. A few days later, he left again for North Carolina.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  One day, he sent me a text message to tell me that he was going to church. And I was like, oh, my goodness, you went to church. We haven't gone to church in a long time, but we both come from families that faith is really important.

• 29:56Andrea Gunning?

  Michael texted her throughout the church service, telling her about the amazing singer he was watching. She happened to be performing one of his mom's favorite songs.

• 30:06Speaker 02

  His mom passed away when I was in grad school. And he was emotional because he was hearing his mother's favorite songs. I'm like, oh, my gosh, that does sound amazing. I'm so glad you got to go.

• 30:20Andrea Gunning?

  Samantha was touched by this update from Michael.

• 30:23Speaker 02

  And he was so excited. He told me the name of the artist who was singing. He's like, oh, she sings so great. You got to hear her sing this song. So I'm thinking, okay, I'll look it up later.

• 30:38Andrea Gunning?

  When she had a free moment a few hours later, she decided to look up the singer Michael was raving about.

• 30:44Speaker 02

  I just Googled the artist's name and the date, and it came right up. Except the artist singing that day wasn't in North Carolina. The artist singing that day was in a church in Knoxville, Tennessee.

• 31:00Andrea Gunning?

  Samantha stared at her screen.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  I immediately knew he was lying. I just didn't know why.

• 31:09Andrea Gunning?

  She pulled up the church's Facebook page.

• 31:12Speaker 02

  It was a big enough church that they were recording their services. And by the time I got on the Facebook page, those services had already been uploaded to the website.

• 31:25Andrea Gunning?

  She clicked on the recording of that morning service.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  This church records their services from the back of the church. So the entire congregation was visible. It was like the back of everyone's heads.

• 31:40Andrea Gunning?

  Scanning the crowd, her eyes landed on Michael.

• 31:44Speaker 02

  My heart sank when I saw him. He's big and tall, and he's in yellow, right smack dab in the middle of the screen. And then my heart sank again when I saw her.

• 32:18Andrea Gunning?

  One thing I've learned from producing true crime these past few years is that life can change in an instant. Most people never expect to find themselves in a dangerous situation. They're heading home from work, walking the dog, meeting a friend, traveling alone, and they assume it's just another ordinary day until it isn't. That's why I want you to know about Saber Smart Pepper Spray. Yes, it's designed to help protect you, but what makes it different is the connected app. If you're ever forced to use it in an emergency, it can alert your emergency contacts and share your location. So when every second matters, the people who care about you most aren't left wondering where you are. They're not left searching. They're not left guessing. They know where to start.

• 33:03Andrea Gunning?

  We can't always predict the unexpected, but we can be prepared for it. Learn more at saberred.com/betrayal. That's saberred.com/betrayal.

• 33:15Andrea Gunning?

  While Michael was on a work trip, he texted his wife Samantha to tell her he was attending an incredible church service. But when Samantha looked up the church, her reality began to crack. Michael was lying about the state he was in. He said he was in North Carolina, but this church was in Tennessee. And when she watched the recording of the service, she saw him in the pews with another woman.

• 33:42Speaker 02

  My heart sank when I saw him. And then it sank again when I saw her.

• 33:52Andrea Gunning?

  The camera angle gave Samantha a clear view of them. She could see that they were holding hands.

• 34:00Speaker 02

  I glanced around the congregation. I'm like, wait, is this one of those times where everyone's supposed to be holding hands? Like, why are we holding hands? Like, is this, you know, we're going to do a group prayer? Like, what's going on? And it was quickly, just the next second, I realized, nope, no one else is holding hands. They are clearly together, coupled. There was a time on the footage that they kissed. And I don't know if my heart could possibly sink one more stage, but he was with a family.

• 34:32Andrea Gunning?

  Sitting next to Michael was a young boy, and next to him, an older woman.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  He has a whole other family in this pew.

• 34:41Andrea Gunning?

  They were all clearly together. Samantha watched in horror.

• 34:46Speaker 02

  There are times where I can see him texting, and I realized, he's texting me.

• 34:56Andrea Gunning?

  Michael clearly had no idea the church service was being recorded or that by telling her the singer's name, he had told on himself.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  He was that confident and that comfortable and not concerned at all. He's like, I can just lie in this woman's face. She'll never know.

• 35:22Andrea Gunning?

  But now Samantha knew.

• 35:24Speaker 02

  After I found out what he was doing, I saw the video. I went on a quiet rampage.

• 35:31Andrea Gunning?

  Samantha and Michael had been married for over 10 years. She knew all of his passwords. She'd never had any reason to snoop, until now.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  I went home that night, and I started opening all the mail I could find, opened up old computers. I powered up all his old cell phones.

• 35:52Andrea Gunning?

  She held her breath, afraid she would find more evidence of this affair. But as soon as she powered on his old devices, she was met with a tidal wave of information.

• 36:04Andrea Gunning?

  So many emails and texts from multiple women she'd never met. This wasn't an isolated affair. This was his way of life. She began going through his text messages. In some cases, Michael was paying women for sex.

• 36:22Speaker 02

  Transactional type relationships.

• 36:24Andrea Gunning?

  Others were serious emotional connections.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  Some of these people, they had long-term relationships. They had anniversary text messages. There was one woman who, I think it was like seven years.

• 36:40Andrea Gunning?

  Samantha went further and further back in his texts and emails. Michael had been cheating on her for almost their entire marriage. When she counted up all the evidence she could find, she had proof of at least 15 different affairs.

• 36:59Speaker 02

  This is years and years and years of affairs that I have found. So many women, so many lies. And these are people who know he's married, right? Some women who would talk about me. To see your husband having a sexual communication with someone, and then that person says, you better save some of that for your wife. You guys are trying to have a baby.

• 37:31Andrea Gunning?

  That sentence stopped Samantha in her tracks. She had been trying to get pregnant for a while, but it had been a difficult road. Seeing someone joke about it made her sick. She kept reading, and she noticed something.

• 37:47Speaker 02

  His tone was different with different women.

• 37:51Andrea Gunning?

  One of the women he was having an affair with worked at a prestigious hospital. With her, he texted in full sentences and made grand gestures.

• 38:01Speaker 02

  He had a beautiful set of flowers delivered to Beth Israel Hospital in Boston.

• 38:07Andrea Gunning?

  With other women, he was way more casual.

• 38:11Speaker 02

  The language he'd use there, abbreviations, oh, the slang he would use. It almost looked like a teenager texting. I was like, my goodness, how does he manage these? He was like a little social chameleon.

• 38:24Andrea Gunning?

  The messages were painful to read, but she couldn't stop.

• 38:28Speaker 02

  It's like not being able to look away from a car accident. I couldn't look away. I couldn't put it down. It was dizzying, disorienting. The rug had been pulled from underneath me.

• 38:40Andrea Gunning?

  She felt like she needed to get to the bottom of everything. Next, she started going through his finances.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  Almost everything I opened had some sort of damning piece of evidence on it. It was a credit card in my name, another credit card in my name. This one has a dinner date on it. This one has a concert in Pennsylvania on it.

• 39:06Andrea Gunning?

  It was becoming clear that Michael's work trips were not what they seemed. He'd been traveling to meet women and racking up debt in Samantha's name while he was there. Samantha was stunned. She had always trusted Michael to handle their bills.

• 39:22Speaker 02

  But that's a bad thing when your partner's cheating on you, because then you don't look at the bills and you don't look at what's right in front of your face.

• 39:31Andrea Gunning?

  Suddenly, Michael's desire to keep working and keep making money, even when he was so sick, started to make sense.

• 39:40Speaker 02

  It is very expensive to cheat.

• 39:42Andrea Gunning?

  She sat on her bed, bills and old cell phones piling up around her.

• 39:47Speaker 02

  It was hard to say like, okay, this is the point that I should stop looking and go to sleep. I've got two more phones here that I haven't even powered up yet. I've got more emails to look through. When do I put this aside or say like, okay, now I have enough?

• 40:05Andrea Gunning?

  In the span of a few hours, everything she thought she knew about her husband had been turned on its head. So if Michael wasn't who she thought, who was he?

• 40:16Speaker 02

  I was getting to know this person that I didn't know, and I wanted to know him.

• 40:25Andrea Gunning?

  Michael was still in Knoxville. Samantha kept texting him like everything was normal.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  I didn't want him to know what I knew. I wanted to be stealthy.

• 40:36Andrea Gunning?

  Before she made any decisions, she wanted all the information. She spent a few days reading everything, all the emails and all the texts, catching up on the plot of the lives she had no idea her husband was living.

• 40:51Speaker 02

  I would go to sleep with a phone in my hand. My laptop was on my bed. It was almost like reading a novel, but this was my real life.

• 41:01Andrea Gunning?

  Finally, she had read all she could read, but still it didn't feel real.

• 41:06Speaker 02

  In that moment, I was still lost. I kind of wanted an identity confirmation. This is reality. Like, I want to see his physical body, not through a screen. I wanted it to be tangible.

• 41:22Andrea Gunning?

  So she decided it was time to take a trip. Michael had taken her car, so she booked a rental.

• 41:29Speaker 02

  And I drove to Knoxville.

• 41:34Speaker 02

  I had no idea if I was going to confront him. I had four and a half, five hours to figure that out, driving.

• 41:42Andrea Gunning?

  When she got to Knoxville, she checked into a hotel. Next, she needed a disguise.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  I put on a wig, a hat and sunglasses because I was on this secretive mission.

• 41:55Andrea Gunning?

  She set out to find Michael, and it was surprisingly simple. Some of the details he told her were true. He really was working for a trucking company. When she drove to the company's address, she found him parked there. From there?

• 42:11Speaker 02

  I started trailing him.

• 42:13Andrea Gunning?

  Samantha followed Michael as he drove through the neighborhoods of Knoxville.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  I was so worried that he wouldn't notice that he was being trailed.

• 42:23Andrea Gunning?

  But he didn't. He drove through Knoxville like he had nothing to hide. He picked up the woman Samantha had seen in the church video, and together, they drove to a dog park.

• 42:34Speaker 02

  I'm like, how long have they been together? They have a dog together? Are you kidding me?

• 42:38Andrea Gunning?

  Samantha parked up on a hill overlooking the dog park.

• 42:42Speaker 02

  I was looking at him. I could see him cheating. They were holding hands, walking the dog.

• 42:47Andrea Gunning?

  She took out her phone and started recording.

• 42:51Speaker 02

  I have video footage of them walking around this park, holding hands, kissing. To me, it was like, if there's an open and shut case, this is it.

• 43:03Andrea Gunning?

  Michael was strolling through the dog park, holding another woman's hand. Like, everything about that was normal. Like, this was his only universe, his only life.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  And I started recording myself talking through everything that I had been through, how I had gotten there. I don't know why I did it. Maybe it's the psychologist in me. It was almost like a trauma narrative, like talking to a friend through a difficult problem. So I'm sitting here narrating everything. It kept me calm.

• 43:37Andrea Gunning?

  After the dog park, they went to a pancake house. Samantha followed them there. Then, they went to the grocery store. After that, she gave up on following them. She had seen all she needed to. She sat in her parked car, staring straight ahead.

• 43:55Speaker 02

  This is a normal life, and that almost made it more confusing to me. Because I'm like, there's nothing sexy about this. This isn't the classic sort of popular media representation of an affair, where it's like, okay, I'm going to check into the hotel, flip you my room card, and I'll be ready for you, type of affair. Or looking into each other's eyes, talking about our feelings, and there's like a candlelit dinner.

• 44:30Speaker 02

  That's not how I found my husband. I found my husband picking up poop after a dog at a park. This isn't fun. You're just having a boring life with another family. This is a painful affair.

• 44:55Andrea Gunning?

  When she woke up in her hotel room the next day, Michael texted her good morning as he always did.

• 45:01Speaker 02

  He never stopped texting me. Here's my husband, he'd still send me good morning text messages.

• 45:07Andrea Gunning?

  She still hadn't told Michael that she knew. About the 15 women, the years of lies, his double life, she didn't tell him anything. It was his turn to be left in the dark. It was a beautiful day in Knoxville, and Samantha was going to church, one church in particular. She heard there was a great singer there.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  Brought my Bible, brought my Sunday clothes, right? I had a big hat on.

• 45:36Speaker 02

  This is church in the south. He didn't want me to know what he's doing. Now he doesn't get to know what I'm doing. I think that was a big part of why I stayed, a way to regain some kind of control or some kind of power.

• 45:50Andrea Gunning?

  She prepared to confront Michael if he was there that Sunday, but he wasn't. After she left church, she took herself on a little drive around Knoxville.

• 46:00Speaker 02

  I did a tour of my husband's cheating by the stuff that I had found. I drove around to the places that I saw on my credit card receipt. I didn't go inside to eat, but I drove, and I'm like, yep, there's that restaurant.

• 46:18Andrea Gunning?

  When she'd seen enough, she went home to Indianapolis. Michael texted her and said that he needed to extend his work trip for a few more days. She replied, she wanted her car back.

• 46:30Speaker 02

  And he's like, well, you know, I'm down here doing the work thing. I said, I don't care. I want my car back. That was the only inkling I gave him that I was upset about something. And he was upset because he couldn't figure out, like, why is this a big deal?

• 46:44Andrea Gunning?

  Michael made the drive back to Indianapolis to return her car, but Samantha wasn't ready to face him.

• 46:50Speaker 02

  He still didn't know that I knew anything. I wasn't ready yet. I was so afraid of interacting with him because we've been married for so long. And I'm like, if he sees me, he's going to know.

• 47:05Andrea Gunning?

  So she got a hotel room for the night and told Michael she was staying at her dad's place. He went to their house and dropped off her car. Then, he went back to Knoxville. She was keeping a close eye on her finances now. And to her horror, she saw that he tried to take out another credit card in her name.

• 47:25Speaker 02

  I was like, okay, well, I need to hurry up because I don't want him doing any more damage.

• 47:30Andrea Gunning?

  She decided to go to the police to file an identity claim against Michael. But the fact that they were married made things complicated.

• 47:39Speaker 02

  The police were like, just divorce this guy. That's all you should do.

• 47:43Andrea Gunning?

  While Michael was still in Knoxville, Samantha decided to move out of their house. The university she worked for had housing available for her to move into.

• 47:53Speaker 02

  So I packed up everything. It was a quick pack, didn't sort anything. I moved under like the cover of night, basically.

• 48:01Andrea Gunning?

  She told the people closest to her, including Michael's family, that she was planning to file for divorce.

• 48:08Speaker 02

  And that's how he found out that I knew. He found out that I was divorcing him from his own family.

• 48:17Andrea Gunning?

  But Michael didn't know what exactly Samantha knew. He just knew that all of a sudden, she wanted to end their marriage. He called her, trying to figure out what was going on. Samantha told him she knew about the woman in Tennessee.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  I was like, are you kidding me? We were trying to have a kid, and you're down here cheating.

• 48:40Andrea Gunning?

  Michael denied everything.

• 48:43Speaker 02

  He never really admitted to anything. He's like, I'm down here for our family. I'm down here for you. I know things are bad now, but I'm almost done with the work thing. It didn't even sound like we were talking about cheating. His narrative was like, well, whatever you found, the truth is that I still love you, and I'm down here trying to strengthen our family. And that as soon as I get back and I don't have to come down here for work anymore, we'll get back right how things used to be.

• 49:20Andrea Gunning?

  Michael couldn't even admit to this one affair, let alone the 14 others. Samantha knew it was pointless to argue further. Their marriage was over.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  I have no desire to do any kind of reconnection. I have no desire to do any kind of work to try to salvage the relationship. I don't even want to waste my breath.

• 49:43Andrea Gunning?

  When Michael finally came back to Indianapolis, he went to their house, expecting Samantha to be there.

• 49:49Speaker 02

  He put his key in the door, and because I had moved houses, his key didn't work.

• 49:54Andrea Gunning?

  He called Samantha in a panic.

• 49:57Speaker 02

  He was like, what'd you do with all my stuff? And I was like, well, who you got caught cheating with is who you can stay with.

• 50:05Andrea Gunning?

  After that, Samantha filed for divorce. Michael was faced with a sobering realization. Samantha was walking away. Now he was the one left desperate for answers. Michael started showing up at Samantha's job.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  And he was leaving notes on my car. And I contacted him, and I said, I'm officially putting you on notice that I do not want you coming to my job. Do not leave notes on my car. If you have any correspondence, do it through my attorney. And I remember he was just like, why are you being so cold?

• 50:42Andrea Gunning?

  Samantha began setting up an independent life for herself. Not only did Michael's betrayal take an emotional toll, there was a huge financial toll, too. The credit cards he took out in her name severely impacted her credit.

• 50:56Speaker 02

  I started protecting myself, locking my credit reports, getting my own health insurance. I was taking my life back, taking my control back and still in pain, but still putting one foot in front of the other. I'm just like, okay, finally, it's gonna be some time that maybe I can breathe because I've just been through the wringer.

• 51:18Andrea Gunning?

  One day when she was at work.

• 51:20Speaker 02

  After I got my own health insurance, I was logging into my account. I was in therapy at the time and I wanted to make sure that the insurance was filing things correctly and whatnot.

• 51:32Andrea Gunning?

  When she logged into her health insurance portal, she noticed a new claim had been added to her account.

• 51:38Speaker 02

  I didn't know what it was for because I wasn't really going to the doctor and especially for that month, it should have just been just my therapist on there.

• 51:47Andrea Gunning?

  She clicked on the claim and started reading.

• 51:50Speaker 02

  It didn't dawn on me that the date of birth was on there and it wasn't my date of birth. It didn't dawn on me that the city that the claim was in was Knoxville, Tennessee. It didn't dawn on me that it was a pediatrician that was the provider. And it didn't dawn on me that the last name of the patient was the last name of my husband.

• 52:19Andrea Gunning?

  The only thing Samantha saw was the name in the middle of the screen.

• 52:25Speaker 02

  Ellington. He had a baby with this woman and he took the name that I was gonna give my daughter if I ever had a little girl.

• 52:38Andrea Gunning?

  That was their baby name, the one they dreamed of together. This cut so deep, something in her snapped.

• 52:47Speaker 02

  I was crying, wailing, sobbing. I didn't think that he could take anything else from me, but I was wrong. That was the last thing that he could do to me and he did.

• 53:01Andrea Gunning?

  A few weeks later, Michael called her. She usually ignored his calls, but this time she picked up.

• 53:09Speaker 02

  I was just screaming at the top of my lungs. I don't even think I was making sense. I lowered my tone and I said, did you have a baby with this woman?

• 53:24Andrea Gunning?

  Michael played dumb.

• 53:26Speaker 02

  He was just like, what are you talking about? And I was like, I know already that you had a baby with this woman.

• 53:34Andrea Gunning?

  Samantha held her breath, waiting for Michael's response, but all he said was.

• 53:40Speaker 02

  I mean, so we're getting divorced, like, whatever.

• 53:44Andrea Gunning?

  His nonchalance was stunning.

• 53:47Speaker 02

  I was like, this is the one thing that you can't deny. Like, there is a life, there's a person that you have created. Surely that will be the one thing that you can see that I would fall apart over. I thought he was actually gonna see how that would be painful. And yeah, he just, he, he did not. It took years for us to get divorced. He refused to sign any of the papers. He would dodge phone calls, emails, subpoenas. I mean, it was a mess.

• 54:26Andrea Gunning?

  But eventually their divorce was finalized. Michael and Samantha stopped being in regular communication, but occasionally he or his family reached out with updates on his health. That was how she learned Michael's health was declining rapidly. He needed a new heart.

• 54:45Speaker 02

  He was on the heart transplant list. He was approved and was waiting for a heart, but he was so ill that he could not go home.

• 54:56Andrea Gunning?

  Michael was living in the hospital, waiting for an appropriate match. His family updated Samantha when he finally made it off the list. They told her he was going into surgery.

• 55:08Speaker 02

  He never woke up from that surgery. He died the next day. I began to weep.

• 55:17Andrea Gunning?

  Despite everything, she went to Michael's funeral.

• 55:21Speaker 02

  I had the pictures that they could use. I had the information for the obituary. I was the wife. I was grieving the husband that I thought I had. The person that I thought I was married to is who I was grieving.

• 55:38Andrea Gunning?

  Samantha navigated complicated layers of grief. One of the hardest parts was grieving the opportunity to be a mother. She had to change her long-term plans.

• 55:51Speaker 02

  I did get tenure, so that was very exciting. I bought my own car. I worked really hard to get my credit restored and that took time and that damage went on for years. I recently bought a house. I was like, wow, yeah, I did that on my own. I think for me, it also marks having my life restored.

• 56:18Andrea Gunning?

  She hasn't tried to erase Michael from her story.

• 56:22Speaker 02

  It's easier for me to conceptualize it as grief. I lost one of the most meaningful relationships that I thought that I'd have for the rest of my life. I do not discount everything that happened in my marriage. I think I've learned that it's more of like a both and instead of an either or. He did these things and I had times of joy and happiness in this marriage.

• 56:50Andrea Gunning?

  There's no guide for situations like this one.

• 56:53Speaker 02

  I definitely just learned that I have far more room for like growth and expansion and self-care and self-love than I thought that I did. Wisdom, I think that has come from the situation.

• 57:14Andrea Gunning?

  We end every weekly episode with the same question. Why do you want to share your story?

• 57:22Speaker 02

  I've always believed that there's power in narrative and power in processing, but I have learned that there is actually power in sharing outwardly. Shame is one of the most difficult emotions to work through. When it sinks in, it's so pervasive, it's in every deep, dark corner of our minds. And not hiding, it's the perfect way to work against shame.

• 57:56Andrea Gunning?

  On the next episode of Betrayal Weekly.

• 57:59Speaker 03

  I really started to see this pattern that she had been using for years. It was almost like this chess game. It was checkmate and she didn't really care that we figured it out. We were just chess pieces to her.

• 58:20Andrea Gunning?

  If you'd like to share your story on Betrayal, please email [email protected]. That is [email protected]. Please note that we are not a mental health organization. If you are in crisis or currently experiencing domestic violence, we encourage you to seek local help or dial 911. Please contact organizations that offer immediate support. In our show notes, we've included a list of US-based resources. You can follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod or find me at It's Andrea Gunning. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal

• 59:03Andrea Gunning?

  community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. Big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Olivia Hewitt. Our story editor is Monique LaBord. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our associate producer is Leah Jablow. Production management by Kristin Melkury.

• 59:49Andrea Gunning?

  Booking support by Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ally Perry and Jessica Krychek. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing and mixing by Matt Del Vecchio. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by MyMusic. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if you could save up for that new car or vacation just by buying the stuff you're already buying? With the OnePay banking app, you earn 3% cash back on up to $150 in monthly spending

• 1:00:31Andrea Gunning?

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• 1:02:55Speaker 03

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• 1:03:04Speaker 04

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• 1:03:11Andrea Gunning?

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.