Pod Insights Betrayal Rehabilitation | EP 9 | Saskia's Story About this episode After serving his time, Mike launches a new career.
Content Warning for rape, tech-enabled sexual abuse, nonconsensual intimate image distribution, death, discussion of suicide, gun violence, and 911 audio.
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3:16 Speaker 00 There is a corner of the criminal justice system that you won't find on court documents. It doesn't involve judges, prosecutors, juries. It doesn't even involve laws, really. It's called prison consulting. You might have heard about it on the news.
3:33 Speaker 04 Harvey Weinstein is preparing for prison. He recently hired a consultant who is helping guide him on what to expect. Bernie Madoff has hired a prison consultant.
3:43 Speaker 05 Actress Lori Loughlin has reportedly hired a prison consultant.
3:46 Speaker 04 Luigi Manjoni. Martha Stewart. NFL player Michael Vick has hired a prison consultant. Willis' new prison-
3:53 Speaker 00 To the scales in his case.
3:57 Speaker 00 Prison consultants assist people who are facing time. Many of these consultants promote their services on YouTube and TikTok. Have you been indicted? Or you think you're gonna be indicted?
4:08 Speaker 06 You need someone who speaks inmates and institution. So if you or a loved one has been recently arrested, you can go ahead and text me. I'll be happy to help you in any way I can.
4:19 Speaker 00 For the right price, prison consultants will advise those facing time on how to get a lesser sentence, or how to get out of jail early. They'll tell you what programs to join and what gangs to avoid.
4:33 Speaker 00 Many of these consultants have served time themselves, often for financial crimes or nonviolent offenses. But what if the person giving out that advice was a convicted rapist? What if they were someone like Mike Levin Good?
5:02 Speaker 00 I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, Season Five, Episode Nine, Rehabilitation.
5:11 Speaker 00 For Saskia, this crime didn't just take an emotional toll. It devastated her financially, especially when it came to paying for her divorce.
5:21 Speaker 07 I'd always learned you'd never touch your 401k. Like, you always need three months of bills in the bank just in case of a rainy day. And I'd always lived by that. And I had to kind of throw that out the window to fight this. I remember the first withdrawal I made was for $60,000, and that was just for attorney's bills up to that point.
5:43 Speaker 00 In the end, the divorce cost her about $100,000. It's a financial hole she's still crawling out of. All of this got us thinking about Mike's financial status, how he's doing today after this crime. So we did some digging, and what we found surprised us.
6:05 Speaker 00 By early 2021, Mike had served his sentence. He was released from jail and put on probation. One of the many standard conditions of probation is getting a job. And for Mike, that wouldn't be easy. Not only because of his conviction, but because of his resume.
6:27 Speaker 07 He was very smart. He had a master's degree. He was working as vice president of marketing for Bank of America. So, I mean, he had made a good salary.
6:37 Speaker 00 It was more than a good salary. Before his conviction, he was making between $200,000 and $250,000 a year. He was an executive and a good one. If you look at his LinkedIn recommendations, he was well-liked and respected. One recommendation reads...
6:56 Speaker 05 He's not only a tremendous professional, he's also a person of integrity, kindness, and old-school values.
7:03 Speaker 00 While another says...
7:05 Speaker 01 Mike is a top-notch professional and a pleasure to work with.
7:09 Speaker 00 Even during his sentencing hearing and after pleading guilty to second-degree rape, a former colleague showed up to defend him.
7:18 Speaker 06 As long as I've known Mike, he's really always been an outstanding character. How people grow, mentoring, providing kindness and goodwill towards people. Mike's just a gentle soul.
7:32 Speaker 00 It's one of the hardest things to wrap your head around. The fact that someone can commit a disturbing personal crime, and people will still line up to call them kind and gentle. Most sex offenders struggle to find any work after they get out. When they do, it's usually construction, waste management, or warehouse gigs. But Mike had a plan. In fact, he had it before he went to jail. During his sentencing hearing back in 2019, his lawyer shared that plan with the judge.
8:06 Speaker 06 He has started an LLC so that he can provide consulting to businesses using the information and knowledge that he had from his career, and hopefully not let the record be an impediment to some companies hiring him because he can use the LLC.
8:22 Speaker 00 He'd used his expertise in banking and marketing to support himself financially. And by running that business through an LLC, his clients could work with him without the bad PR. Then in February of 2021, Mike got out of jail. And a month later, he filed a trade name application for a new company. But this company wasn't a business consulting firm. It was Smith and Good Associates.
8:52 Speaker 00 According to their legal business filing, Smith and Good is a consulting firm for individuals in the criminal justice system, which is just another way of saying prison consultants. We wanted to learn what this industry was all about. So we called up an expert.
9:10 Speaker 04 My name is John Fuller. I started my prison consulting business in 2004.
9:17 Speaker 00 Like a lot of prison consultants, John has a criminal past.
9:22 Speaker 04 I was sentenced to 10 years for conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute.
9:29 Speaker 00 He did time for drug and forgery charges. But since prison, John's built quite the career for himself.
9:35 Speaker 04 I've worked primarily with white collar criminals, professional athletes, entertainers, mostly high-profile individuals.
9:45 Speaker 00 Multiple outlets say he coached Martha Stewart when she was heading to prison. He didn't comment on that. But no matter the client, his job is essentially the same.
9:57 Speaker 04 I prepare my clients on things that they should do before incarceration, ways they should behave during incarceration, and any assistance or the reality of their circumstances post-incarceration.
10:16 Speaker 00 Every prison consultant offers different services. Some explain sentencing guidelines or strategize on getting their clients lesser sentences. They facilitate mock trials and, in some cases, assist in writing remorse letters to victims. Others focus on eliminating the unknowns of prison, what the food, the beds, the fellow inmates might be like. And they also explain those unknowns to family members who are scared for their loved one. But John is the first to admit there are a lot of unethical people in his industry.
10:53 Speaker 04 What 90 per centities of the prison consultants are doing? They'll make promises and tell you that they can save your life.
11:02 Speaker 00 In our reporting, we spoke to several prison consultants. Every one of them had something to say about the others. But John brought up a lot of interesting examples of how other consultants will say they can game the system to their client's advantage. For instance,
11:18 Speaker 04 They'll lie and charge you fifteen, twenty thousand dollars and tell you as soon as you get to the prison, they can get them in a residential drug and alcohol program.
11:28 Speaker 00 You might be wondering, why would anyone who doesn't use drugs or alcohol pay twenty thousand dollars for addiction treatment? Well, John says it can be part of a larger strategy.
11:39 Speaker 04 Because if you can get into the residential drug and alcohol program, you can get eighteen months to three years off your sentence. So of course, they're gonna go that route. And this wise guy of a prison consultant says, we're gonna lie and you're gonna tell your probation officer that you do use drugs, you do use alcohol. As a matter of fact, go report next week with the smell of alcohol on your breath. And that's what's gonna qualify you for the residential drug and alcohol program.
12:14 Speaker 00 A few years ago, a prison consultant pled guilty to conspiring to defraud the Federal Bureau of Prisons for running that exact scam. But John says that's not the only scam people in his industry are operating.
12:29 Speaker 04 These prison consultants are literally stealing money from people, saying, you're not gonna do any time. But if you don't pay me this ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty-five thousand dollars within the next thirty-six hours, I can't help you. And the client is so scared that he's going to do it.
12:54 Speaker 00 Mike declined our request for comment, so we don't know how much Smith & Good charges, or the specific strategies they use. But on their website, they do advertise a wide variety of services. They support clients in mitigating their sentences, and prepping for their time behind bars. They also provide guidance on parole hearings, and sex offender registry requirements. But there's one line that stands out to me on the Smith & Good homepage. I had my producer Trey read it.
13:27 Speaker 04 "We emphasize the importance of rehabilitation, how to do this safely at the Department of Corrections, and what loved ones can do to support rehabilitative efforts. It all starts with a plan."
13:39 Speaker 00 It's not for us to say whether Mike was rehabilitated while behind bars, but we can say that Mike had a plan for himself.
13:49 Speaker 00 Very soon after Mike got out of jail, he had a business name, address, and tax ID number. And on top of that, he found himself a business partner. His associate is a former Army Ranger with a criminal past of his own. But unlike Mike, he wasn't a sex offender. He was charged with murder. And when questioned by detectives, his story changed three times.
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17:44 Speaker 00 In 2021, Saskia's ex-husband Mike Levin Good started a prison consulting firm, Smith and Good Associates. He was the Good in the business name, as in Levin Good, and the Smith was Gary James Smith. Gary has experience with the system, too, but his journey is a lot more complicated. We're going to take a detour into Gary's story because it brings up some very important questions about the kind of business Mike is operating. In 2006, Gary was a young veteran, an Army Ranger fresh out of the military. As a judge said of him at trial.
18:25 Speaker 06 There are many examples in Mr. Smith's life where he was a good person. He was a mentor to young soldiers. He was promoted to the rank of sergeant fairly quickly, which is no easy task. He was assigned to a very responsible unit with a very important job in the defense of this country.
18:44 Speaker 00 But.
18:45 Speaker 06 When good people do bad things, they have to be held accountable. He made a horribly bad decision. And in making that decision, it caused the life of another young man.
18:59 Speaker 00 That young man was 22-year-old Michael McQueen. He was also an Army Ranger, an intelligence analyst. He and Gary served several tours together in Afghanistan. When they came back to the US, they moved in together. McQueen's friends and family said he was excited to be home. He had plans to go to college, then law school, become a sports agent. But then, in the early morning hours of September 26, 2006, Michael McQueen was found dead. He had a gunshot wound to the head. His roommate Gary Smith was the one to call 911. You're about to hear that call. In it, Gary is distraught.
19:44 Speaker 00 The 911 operator could barely understand him. If you'd like, you can skip ahead 30 seconds. 911, what's your emergency?
19:55 Speaker 07 Oh, my God! Where are you? Where is the address? What's the problem there? I can't hear you say anything. Your roommate is dead?
20:26 Speaker 00 When the cops arrived, Gary remained inconsolable. He insisted he had nothing to do with McQueen's death. But the police, they didn't buy it. Because Gary was covered in McQueen's blood. And that wasn't all. Here's the prosecutor at trial.
20:46 Speaker 06 He's outside at this point, over the top, uncontrollably crying. But then one of the officers, one of the sergeants said, "I know she was crying loudly, but there were no tears coming."
20:58 Speaker 00 And each time the authorities pressed Gary, he changed his story. During the investigation, he gave three very different versions of what happened that night. Story number one came the first time the police asked Gary what happened. He said he wasn't even home at the time of McQueen's death. They'd been out drinking, and Gary dropped McQueen at their apartment before running out for a quick errant. Here's Gary on the police interrogation tapes.
21:29 Speaker 07 He went upstairs. I said, "I'm gonna go pick up some clean socks." I drove over to my mother's house, grabbed a laundry basket full of clothes, put it in my car, turned around and went back to the house. And I went upstairs, I opened the door, and I saw Mike sitting in the chair.
21:48 Speaker 06 I saw blood all over the place.
21:52 Speaker 00 Maybe it was a suicide, or maybe someone killed McQueen. Gary offered a few possible theories of who could have done it. Some neighbors McQueen had argued with, or maybe a drug dealer in the building. Gary said when he found McQueen, there were no weapons nearby. He kept all of his guns at his mom's house. But later, he told Officer something very different. Here's story number two.
22:21 Speaker 06 I came home.
22:24 Speaker 06 Mike was dead.
22:27 Speaker 06 My gun was in his hand.
22:30 Speaker 00 It was Gary's gun. He knew his fingerprints would be all over it, and he panicked.
22:37 Speaker 06 I grabbed the gun after I realized he was dead. I put it in my pocket. I got back in my car. I drove to Lake Neowood, after it underneath the bridge. I got back in my car. I drove back to the house.
22:53 Speaker 00 Gary confessed that before calling 911, he took the time to get rid of the weapon. He said he threw the gun in a lake.
23:02 Speaker 06 I was so scared. He was dead. He was dead, and it was my fault. I left that gun there. It was my gun. I didn't pop it up.
23:14 Speaker 00 Now, Gary was suddenly sure. This had to be a suicide. And then, there was story number three. Also a suicide. But in this third account, Gary didn't come home to find McQueen dead. He was in the apartment when McQueen fired the gun. The prosecutor summarized this version for the court.
23:37 Speaker 06 He says he comes in, he put the gun on the floor. He was back in the bathroom. He came out and Mike killed himself. And then even in story three, he gives different versions of that. I put it on the table. I was here. I did see it. I didn't see it. I might have been close. I might not have been close.
23:54 Speaker 00 Three different stories and one dead man. And with each version, Gary moved a little closer to the scene. From nowhere near the apartment and no gun in sight, to finding the gun and throwing it in a lake, to being inside the apartment when his friend died. The problem with all three versions, none of them clearly lined up with the forensic evidence. And the interpretation of that evidence was heavily debated by both the prosecution and the defense. There was no confession, no eyewitness testimony. There was only this evidence and Gary Smith's word. And it's important to say here, Gary Smith is white.
24:37 Speaker 00 Michael McQueen was black. After nine years of proceedings and two separate appeals, Gary Smith finally entered what's known as an Alfred plea.
24:49 Speaker 07 An Alfred plea is essentially a guilty plea where you say that, I'm not saying that I did it, but I acknowledge that there's sufficient evidence in order to find me guilty.
25:01 Speaker 00 That's Max Frizzalone, a defense attorney in Maryland and the founder of Frizzwood's Criminal Defense.
25:08 Speaker 07 So you have somebody who's spent years in jail. The state has put on multiple criminal trials, subpoenaed numerous witnesses who have testified multiple times under oath. And so sort of the whole entire goal of an Alfred plea is that the person's found guilty, but the person themselves doesn't have to say it. But ultimately, it is a conviction.
25:28 Speaker 00 An Alfred plea is a compromise. The state still gets a conviction, but the defendant gets the ability to maintain their innocence. Plus, as part of the plea, Gary's legal team negotiated his charges down significantly. What was once a murder charge was now reckless endangerment, and he got sentenced to time served. In the end, Gary Smith served just six years behind bars. We reached out to Gary for comment, but he didn't respond to our call. The same goes for Michael McQueen's family. When Gary Smith was released, he also quickly got a job.
26:10 Speaker 00 He went to work for the very law firm that had defended him. He's even used in the firm's promotional materials.
26:17 Speaker 06 Hi, I'm Gary. I'm a law clerk here at the office of Jessica Moise. I served six years in prison. Before that, I was an Army Ranger. If you are a loved one who's been charged with a crime, please give our offices a call, and we'd love to help you. And I'm happy to say that Gary works for
26:36 Speaker 03 for me full time as a law clerk on all my homicide cases and my serious felony cases.
26:42 Speaker 00 That's Andrew Jeszek, Gary's boss, speaking on his firm's YouTube channel.
26:47 Speaker 03 I'm proud of him, and I think we were able to show in the end that Gary was innocent and that Gary deserved to get every break that he could. And now he's married, he's got a child, he's my law clerk, he's going to go to law school, and he's hopefully going to be my partner one day.
27:02 Speaker 00 If that voice sounds familiar, it's because you've heard it before.
27:09 Speaker 03 Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future. And Mike, the great parts of him will continue and dominate for the rest of his life.
27:22 Speaker 00 Andrew Jeszek was also Mike Levin Good's defense attorney. He also didn't return our call. In many ways, Gary and Mike had a lot in common. Both of their cases ended in a mess of legal technicalities, and they were both convicted. But they each maintained their innocence in spite of the judge's ruling. It's no wonder, then, that these two became partners, that they came together to help other people like them. On the Smith and Good site, they invite people to reach out and give them a call.
27:58 Speaker 05 So I called him up, and surprisingly, he answered.
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30:34 Speaker 00 By 2021, both Mike Levin Good and Gary James Smith had served their sentences. And together, they've launched Smith and Good Associates, built on their experiences with and contacts within the criminal justice system.
30:51 Speaker 00 On the surface, their business is like any other consulting firm. They've got clean headshots and a polished website with a promise to help guide clients through a confusing system. But behind the branding, there's a convicted rapist and a man convicted in connection with the death of his friend. And both are charging money to consult criminal defendants. We've confirmed through legal documents that the firm's been employed by Jesic MOEs, the criminal defense firm Mike and Gary both used.
31:29 Speaker 00 On one hand, all of this is perfectly legal. Gary and Mike served their sentences, and there's nothing stopping them from creating a business like this. In fact, in the eyes of the justice system, it might even be a good thing.
31:46 Speaker 05 At some point, you do have to earn enough money to comply with probation, right?
31:51 Speaker 00 That's Max Frizzalone, the lawyer you heard from earlier. He's referring to something we discussed at the top of the episode: that ex-cons are required to hold down a job as part of the terms of their probation.
32:04 Speaker 05 For a lot of people who have been convicted of crimes, especially crimes of violence, sexual offenses, traditional employment might be impossible. You're unlikely to get through a background check if you have a prior violent felony or you're a sex offender. So you might have to get creative about how to keep making money.
32:22 Speaker 00 And making money doesn't just benefit the offender. It benefits their families, who often suffer from the lack of income that comes with their relatives' incarceration. But the idea that ex-cons are now profiting from that past raises a lot of moral, ethical, and legal questions.
32:42 Speaker 05 One of the pitfalls and problems with the industry is your qualification for this job is the fact that you committed a crime.
32:54 Speaker 00 That's Trey Morgan, one of my producers. He's been reporting on crime for eight years now. And he did a lot of the investigation for this episode.
33:05 Speaker 00 One of the biggest problems he sees with this industry is that there's no certification process to become a prison consultant.
33:12 Speaker 05 I mean, almost every other industry that deals with our criminal justice system has some sort of licensing and some sort of board that establishes rules and guidelines. But for some reason, we have decided that this one doesn't need oversight.
33:34 Speaker 00 A lot of these crimes are about control. And being a consultant puts you in a position of power. And then, there's the concern of people like Mike getting close with fellow criminals. Remember, Mike started this business immediately after getting out.
33:53 Speaker 05 For sex offenders like Mike and violent offenders like Gary, the Maryland Department of Public Safety and Correctional Services, they encourage limiting contact with other offenders. And the goal there is really, I mean, it's common sense, to reduce the risk of reoffending, especially right when you get out of jail or prison.
34:15 Speaker 00 Mike and Gary working together likely goes against that advice. So would Mike consulting other convicted felons while he was still on probation. Maybe there's a world where I could get past all of that. Mike and Gary did serve their time. They're technically free to do whatever they want to do and make money in most ways you could think of. But there's one thing I keep coming back to. What does this business mean for people like Michael McQueen and for Saskia? I talked to Trey about it. You know, I keep thinking about the fact that there's this entire industry built around helping criminal defendants,
34:58 Speaker 00 attending to their fears, their anxieties, their difficulties. And there's someone like Saskia, who has spent years fighting to get the proper care she needs. I just feel like we spend so much energy caring for perpetrators of these crimes. And as a culture, we don't give the same safeguards to victims.
35:18 Speaker 05 I hate to say it, but in a lot of ways, we are in a offender-first society. Post-conviction, our focus turns to the convicted to say, okay, well, they're serving their time, they're getting their life back together, and we start forgetting about the actual victim.
35:37 Speaker 00 When you go to Smith and Good's website, you see a lot about Mike and Gary's accolades. How Mike was a business exec at Fortune 500 companies and how Gary was an intelligence specialist in Afghanistan. Nowhere on the website do they make any acknowledgement of the details of the crimes they've been convicted of and the victims whose lives they've altered forever.
36:04 Speaker 05 And I couldn't imagine what it would be like for Saskia to first learn that her perpetrator is selling the experience that he gained from what he did to her. I just can't imagine.
36:21 Speaker 00 Saskia had no idea about Mike's business. She only found out about it from us once we started investigating for the podcast.
36:31 Speaker 07 I can't say that I was really surprised, but I just thought it was really a low, shameful thing to do. He's not helping victims or not helping rehabilitate people, and instead of making something good out of it, he decides to capitalize on it. He's like basically laughing at everything that he put me through.
36:54 Speaker 00 As for Michael McQueen, he will never know what Gary went on to do. He was long dead by the time Smith and Good began. But those who loved McQueen, his family, his friends, those he served with overseas, remain.
37:13 Speaker 00 As we said earlier, we tried contacting his mother for comment. She never replied to our messages. But we do have audio from Gary's final sentencing hearing in 2015, when McQueen's mother got up to give a victim impact statement. And we'd like to share what she had to say.
37:32 Speaker 06 There must be concern for victims and for my son, who under no reason was murdered and killed by someone who he considered a friend. Whether or not it's called one thing, whether or not it's called manslaughter, it is still murder. He killed an innocent young man who had everything to look forward to. And so I asked myself, where is the fairness for my son? Where is the fairness for him?
38:05 Speaker 00 Mike and Gary get to move on. Victims live with these crimes forever.
38:12 Speaker 07 I'll never be the same. I'll never be able to assume that because I'm a good person, that I'll get treated as one.
38:26 Speaker 00 It would be one thing for Mike to start a business like this if he'd made amends with Saskia.
38:32 Speaker 07 If he would have said, "I'm a sex addict, and I will do anything I can to show you that I'm sorry." If he would have done anything in good faith.
38:46 Speaker 00 Then maybe Saskia would feel differently about all of it. But if his actions in the divorce trial are any indication, Mike's not trying to minimize harm.
38:57 Speaker 07 There was no regret, no accountability taken. Immediately, right away, the only thing he cared about was saving his face.
39:05 Speaker 00 This question of accountability is one that comes up in many of our stories. But it's rare that we have a case where the perpetrator has built a career around his conviction and incarceration, which is one of the reasons we wanted to call Mike to ask him about this ourselves.
39:24 Speaker 00 So Trey rang him up.
39:27 Speaker 05 And surprisingly, he answered.
39:31 Speaker 05 I don't know what I imagined after listening to all the court audio and all of that, but he just sounded like a normal guy.
39:40 Speaker 05 You know, I introduced myself. I'm Trey, I'm a producer. We're doing a story about Saskia Inwood and wanted to talk to you about your business. And he paused for a second.
39:56 Speaker 00 And then Mike started asking Trey questions. Questions like, so you're a reporter. What's the angle of the story?
40:05 Speaker 05 And then he said something to the effect of, what does my business have to do with my personal life? What does my business have to do with Saskia? His business is a result of serving time, and he served that time because of his relationship to Saskia.
40:27 Speaker 00 Trey laid this out for Mike, but at this point, Mike was done talking. He said he didn't want to comment on his business, his criminal trial, or his divorce case. So they ended the call. Afterwards, Trey sat there, frozen for a while, processing Mike's questions. What's the story here? What do his crimes, his personal life, have to do with his business?
40:55 Speaker 05 When he said that, I was caught off guard. Like, how do you answer that?
41:04 Speaker 00 On the final episode of The Trial, Season 5, we turn back to Saskia and her healing journey.
41:12 Speaker 07 I don't think that I can ever trust anybody. I don't think that I could ever fully be confident that someone wasn't misleading me or manipulating me, because I was so sure that he was a good person and that he loved me. How can I ever get to the point where I truly don't fear that?
41:45 Speaker 00 For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org/betrayal. That's R-A-I-N-N dot org slash betrayal. You can also get free confidential 24/7 support through RAINN's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text HOPE to 64673, or call 1-800-656-HOPE. You are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, or want to tell us your story, email us at [email protected] . That is [email protected] . Or follow us on Instagram, at BetrayalPod. To access additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community,
42:30 Speaker 00 join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Trey Morgan and Kaitlin Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor
43:10 Speaker 00 is Monique LaBord. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Olivia Hewitt and Lea Jablow. Production management by Kristin Melchiori. Additional support by Curry Richmond. Voice acting by Stephanie Young and Tanner Robbins. Our iHeart team is Ally Perry and Jessica Krychek. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins, with additional editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends and family. And special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by MyB Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Previous Updates from Ember, Natalie, and Stephanie | BONUS | Saskia’s Story Next Introducing: Betrayal Secrets & Lies Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated