Probable Cause | EP 3 | The Confidante

Sheriffs take on Carl’s case as the harassment reaches new heights. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod https://www.instagram.com/betrayalpod/ and @glasspodcasts https://www.instagram.com/glasspodcasts/. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. If you are currently in crisis, please reach out to organizations that offer immediate support. We are including a few US-based resources here: 988 Lifeline. https://988lifeline.org/ If you or someone you know is in crisis or need to talk to someone immediately, please call or text 988 – the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline available 24/7/365. National Domestic Violence Hotline https://www.thehotline.org/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=domestic_violence. They offer 24/7 phone and chat support to help you create a personalized safety plan and connect you with local support. For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org/betrayal. You can also get free, confidential, 24/7 support through RAINN’s National Sexual Assault Hotline. Text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE. Every state has a domestic violence coalition. If you’re looking for help in the US, search the web for your state’s domestic violence coalition. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Andrea Gunning?

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:05Andrea Gunning?

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• 0:47Andrea Gunning?

  from applying and financial aid, to tutoring and career development. At Southern New Hampshire University, knowledge can be life-changing. Get started at SNHU.edu/Betrayal. That's SNHU.edu/Betrayal. What if you could save up for that new car or vacation just by buying the stuff you're already buying? With the OnePay banking app, you earn 3% cash back on up to $150 in monthly spending in categories you choose, so it's easy to save. For me, I love to save up for a really nice vacation and maybe put some money aside for a new car. It's always nice having something to look forward to. And knowing you're actually making progress towards those bigger goals feels really good.

• 1:32Andrea Gunning?

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• 1:39Speaker 01

  OnePay is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by Coastal Community Bank or Lead Bank, members FDIC. Cash back is earned as points. Go to onepay.com/rewards/terms for redemption options and additional details.

• 1:54Speaker 02

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• 2:09Speaker 03

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• 2:27Speaker 04

  We'd gotten a pounding at the door. And I answered right away, and I saw multiple squad cars with the lights on. And the officer that I'd spoken to was like, "We need to come in." One of the police officers asked me to sit down. And they explained that Drew was holed up in the bathroom with a knife. And I'm like, "What are you talking about?" I am freaking out from that because I'm like inches away from the possibility of somebody dying.

• 3:17Andrea Gunning?

  I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, Season Six. Episode Three, Probable Cause.

• 3:25Andrea Gunning?

  In our last episode, the harassment campaign against Carl, his boyfriend Drew, and their friend Paul reached new heights. Carl's ex-boyfriend denied he was behind the attacks. Even after being questioned by a mutual friend and by his probation officer, Adam swore he didn't do anything wrong. Carl thought he was lying, that he was probably back to drinking. And that was the perfect setup for the real perpetrator. The real person behind the harassment? He was someone who'd been there all along, serving as a shoulder to cry on and doing everything he could to place the blame on Adam.

• 4:07Speaker 05

  I knew Adam was getting out of jail, so I wanted to pose as Adam because it was an easy scapegoat.

• 4:15Andrea Gunning?

  The man you just heard, you've actually met him already. Release your inhibitions, feel the rain on your skin. He was Carl's best friend, Paul Augustine.

• 4:30Andrea Gunning?

  Now you know the truth. But here's the thing. During the escalating campaign of harassment in 2023, Carl, Drew, and police detectives had no idea whatsoever. Everyone was focused on Carl's ex-boyfriend, Adam, which was Paul's intention all along. And Paul played the part of the concerned friend perfectly. To Carl and Drew, he wasn't a suspect. He was another victim of Adam's. Remember, Paul had also been receiving harassing texts. Just realize that Carl's attempts to lie to you, or whatever dude he's involved with at this point in his life, is so beyond ridiculous. Paul sent himself that message.

• 5:15Andrea Gunning?

  It was an effective cover. He couldn't be the perpetrator if he was a victim. With Paul, the harassment escalated over time, just as it did with Carl. In November 2023, Paul received this text from an unknown number. Someone's not going to make it out of this alive. And if you're stupid and show them this message, it just might be you. It was a direct threat, and Paul was completely freaked out.

• 5:43Speaker 04

  He called me up, very shaken, crying on the phone and fearing for his own safety. And when I heard him upset, it did deeply affect me.

• 5:55Andrea Gunning?

  Hearing Paul in distress only reinforced what Carl already believed. They were victims of the same person, and they were in real danger. The day that text came in, Carl told Paul he needed to go to the police. And he did. Paul filed a police report of his own on November 13, 2023. Since Paul lived outside of Kenosha, he needed to contact his local precinct. An officer from Wauwatosha PD was sent to Paul's home to interview him. That interaction was recorded on police body cam.

• 6:33Speaker 05

  Nice to meet you.

• 6:33Speaker 06

  Steve, nice to meet you. How's it going?

• 6:35Speaker 05

  So me and, okay, a couple of my other friends, they live down in Kenosha. For a while, we'd been kind of harassed, and we were like 99% sure that we know who the person is. They were, you know, actually in jail for, what, about a year and a half or so? And it was the ex-boyfriend of one of my friends.

• 6:58Andrea Gunning?

  Paul explained that he and his friend Carl, and Carl's new boyfriend Drew, had all been targets of the same man. And after months of trying to ignore it, the harassment had reached a fever pitch.

• 7:11Speaker 05

  So like, someone's not going to make it out of this alive. Like, it's not directly saying, "Oh, I'm gonna kill you," but it's the implication. I think I would take that that way. I, most people, would. It was a random phone number. I can give you the phone number if that helps.

• 7:26Speaker 06

  Yep, we have stuff that we can punch in phone numbers and see if they are assigned to somebody. The issue with this is just a random-generated number. It's not going to show up as any problem.

• 7:38Andrea Gunning?

  Paul seemed particularly interested in how the police would be able to track down the caller.

• 7:44Speaker 05

  I don't know what you guys can do, but like, you can't read text messages from a random device.

• 7:48Speaker 06

  No, nothing like that, no.

• 7:50Speaker 05

  Oh, okay.

• 7:51Speaker 06

  That you need to search one for. That's a little more intense.

• 7:55Speaker 05

  Depending on how, like, bad the threat is, you know?

• 7:58Andrea Gunning?

  Paul nodded along with Officer Mills, but this was new information for Paul. Officer Mills said it would take a pretty serious threat, like a domestic terror threat, to issue a search warrant. And a search warrant would be the only surefire way to unmask the perpetrator. So for the moment, the real identity of the person behind the chaos remained a secret. Carl was relieved that Paul finally filed a police report. He was looking for any way to get law enforcement to take the harassment seriously. Because now, he was getting spoofed constantly. There were days where he received dozens of calls. I get spam calls a lot.

• 8:43Andrea Gunning?

  You probably do, too. You see a random number pop up on your phone, you pick up. Sometimes it's a sales call masked behind a local phone number. Other times, no one's on the other line. You hang up, and you go about your day. The spoof calls Carl received were entirely different. First of all, most of the calls weren't showing up as random numbers. Instead, he'd actually see his friend's name pop up on his phone, or his uncle's name, his sister's. You think it's your uncle or your sister?

• 9:16Speaker 04

  You pick up, what's on the other line? Nothing. Just 10 seconds of silence.

• 9:25Andrea Gunning?

  But to Carl, that silence wasn't empty. It felt threatening. So whenever Carl picked up the phone and was met with silence on the other end, his mind went to a dark place. That someone had it out for him, and they would stop at nothing. What's the big fear?

• 9:45Speaker 04

  What's the worst case scenario in your head? I'm concerned that somebody could be coming for me. That somebody's gonna assault me. If not me, then Drew. At this point, I'm especially hypervigilant. As soon as I get in my car, I'm checking the backseats to make sure that there's nothing planted there. When I'm laying in bed, I don't sleep because that's when my sense of hearing, I pick up on everything.

• 10:13Andrea Gunning?

  And every time Carl felt his phone buzz, that same panic set in. His body tensed, his heart rate skyrocketed. It wasn't just an irritating call. It was a reminder that somewhere out there, his ex-boyfriend Adam was listening, plotting, refusing to let him go. All this made it harder than ever to show up as a friend, a partner, and a son. Take this one moment in fall 2023, when Carl's mother had a medical emergency.

• 10:45Speaker 04

  My mom called me and said, I need you to take me to the hospital because she's feeling all this pain in her back and in her chest and down her arm.

• 10:53Andrea Gunning?

  Carl got right in his car, picked up his mom, and rushed her to the ER. The hospital quickly determined that it was a heart attack. It's one of those moments when time slows down. Carl watched ER doctors and nurses surround his mom.

• 11:08Speaker 04

  She's like a rock to me in so many ways. I always come to her with an issue. There would always be some way to figure it out. Even when things were volatile, like, it'll be okay, it'll be figured out.

• 11:20Andrea Gunning?

  This should have been a moment where he could just support his mom. Instead, he was getting call after call, seemingly from his sister. But when he picked up, there was always silence. The calls were all fake. He believed that somehow Adam found out about the heart attack. Adam was capitalizing on his mom's illness, kicking Carl when he was down.

• 11:48Speaker 04

  How could you be so sick as to fuck with my mental state right now, just as I'm family members in the hospital?

• 11:56Andrea Gunning?

  To Carl, it was a clear sign that Adam had changed, that he must have lost his mind.

• 12:02Speaker 04

  He's hacking my fucking phone. He's hacking my phone. He has to be. Like, he must be spying on me somehow. Nothing here makes sense right now, and that's the only plausible explanation.

• 12:15Andrea Gunning?

  And if he'd stoop this low, if he'd take advantage of a moment of crisis, what would he do next?

• 12:23Speaker 04

  I'm talking to police officers from the hospital, expressing like, hey, what the hell's going on? What are we gonna do about this?

• 12:32Speaker 04

  It was like I was in a glass box that everybody could see me like screaming and screaming and screaming, but did nothing about it, like they just passed me by. I could just scream into the wind and nothing would happen. That's what that felt like.

• 12:47Andrea Gunning?

  After months of feeling dismissed, Carl tried a new tactic.

• 12:51Speaker 04

  Maybe I'll just lean on one of my political connections and see what I can find out.

• 12:56Andrea Gunning?

  So he contacted his state representative, and he finally found someone willing to listen. The representative arranged for Carl to meet with the district attorney's office and an investigator.

• 13:07Speaker 04

  And the investigator responded with, "Document everything." I'm like a good government bureaucrat. Like, I can make a spreadsheet. So I was like, hell yeah, I could do that.

• 13:20Andrea Gunning?

  So Carl built a timeline of the harassment. He made a spreadsheet, starting with the first message his friend Paul received on Grindr back in May, and detailed every instance of harassment since.

• 13:33Speaker 03

  Do you ever worry about your reputation? Just know that he's a cheater and not to be trusted. You broke me. Andrew and Paul better watch out. I would be worried about this weekend if I were your friends. That fucking asshole will pay.

• 13:48Andrea Gunning?

  The more Carl documented, the guiltier Adam looked. And with each row he added, Carl explained why his ex-boyfriend Adam had to be the culprit.

• 13:58Speaker 04

  I had a comments column like explaining like why this particular text message was important. This has to be Adam because it's about the dog we adopted together. This has to be Adam because this was about the time we went to White Castle. There was reference to a Valentine's Day card that Adam sent to me from jail.

• 14:16Andrea Gunning?

  I've seen this spreadsheet, and it is no joke. There are hundreds and hundreds of entries. With this, he thought, the cops had to see what he was dealing with.

• 14:27Speaker 04

  It isn't just one spoof call that's being ignored. It's 45 of them. It was a lot to show, like, somebody is out there that's off their rocker.

• 14:36Andrea Gunning?

  When it was all laid out in Carl's spreadsheet, you could see all of the phone calls and texts for what they were, a pattern of abuse. And it was getting worse, more unhinged, more violent.

• 14:51Andrea Gunning?

  On November 21st, 2023, Carl and Drew took the spreadsheet to Kenosha Sheriff's. They sat down with Kenosha County Deputy Mike Roers. He'd worked his fair share of harassment complaints before.

• 15:04Speaker 06

  Quite frankly, in my experience, most of them are bullshit. They don't have any substance, because if I just call you and talk your ear off, you might not appreciate it, but that doesn't necessarily make it illegal. The thing that really set Carl and Andrew apart was Carl had an entire spreadsheet that all kind of pieced this all together. And that was something that I had never seen because most people don't have that evidence. The more that I kept scrolling through it, the more the realization was that this isn't bullshit, that it wasn't just a civil matter, it wasn't just him blowing something out of proportion from an axe. It was legitimate harassment, if not stalking.

• 15:44Andrea Gunning?

  But the spreadsheet wasn't the only thing Carl wanted to show the sheriffs that day.

• 15:49Andrea Gunning?

  We have the body cam footage from this meeting. And in it, Carl explains that his boyfriend Drew recently received a voicemail from Adam.

• 15:58Speaker 04

  He left a voicemail on [bleep] phone saying no caller ID, but he explicitly identified himself, and I listened to the voicemail. It's absolutely his voice.

• 16:09Andrea Gunning?

  This was significant. After months of silence on the other line, they finally had Adam identifying himself on tape.

• 16:17Speaker 05

  Hello, this is Adam. I'm giving you a call. I know who this is. You know who this is.

• 16:24Andrea Gunning?

  In this voicemail, Adam denied that he had anything to do with the harassment. In fact, he made it sound like Carl and Drew were harassing him and his family.

• 16:34Speaker 05

  I would greatly appreciate if you would just stop trying to reach out to me. It's getting out of hand. I want nothing to do with you. I don't want to speak with you. I have not tried even reaching out to you once since I left and got out of prison. Just leave me the hell alone. Stop trying to contact my family. I need to move on with my life, and so do you. We need to just let it go and move on, okay? I will speak to you later.

• 17:04Andrea Gunning?

  This message baffled Carl and Drew. Neither of them had reached out to Adam's family. And suddenly, Adam was playing the victim? It made no sense. Then Carl got an idea. He could use this voicemail and compare it side by side with that animal abuse call the police received weeks earlier. Here's that call again.

• 17:27Speaker 05

  I was just wondering if I could have a police officer out to my address. My boyfriend was caught hitting my dog, and then it kind of just got into like a little argument between us, and I wanted him to leave, but he wanted.

• 17:42Andrea Gunning?

  The police listened to both recordings, back to back, and compared the voices. Here's Adam's voicemail one more time.

• 17:49Speaker 05

  Just leave me the hell alone. Stop trying to contact my family. I need to move on with my life, and so do you.

• 17:55Speaker 04

  I listened to it, and you could tell these voices are very similar, like it is Adam. I'm like, this is it right here. I got my smoking gun.

• 18:06Andrea Gunning?

  The cops thought so too. Finally, they started to take Carl more seriously because of the spreadsheet and because of the voice matching. They were convinced that these two calls were from the same person. But the cops, Carl and Drew, they all got it wrong. That voicemail was legit. It was from the real Adam Mejia, reaching out to Carl and Drew for the first time in all of this, in hopes of finally putting a stop to whatever was going on.

• 18:36Speaker 05

  I need to move on with my life, and so do you. We need to just let it go and move on, okay? I will speak to you later.

• 18:45Andrea Gunning?

  However, the call to the police was from someone else entirely, someone who'd been hired by Carl's best friend, Paul Augustine.

• 18:55Speaker 05

  And Carl was like, that's Adam's voice. So I was like, oh, this is great. Carl totally buys this.

• 19:19Andrea Gunning?

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• 20:03Andrea Gunning?

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• 20:46Andrea Gunning?

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• 21:16Speaker 01

  OnePay is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by Coastal Community Bank or Lead Bank, members FDIC. Cash back is earned as points. Go to onepay.com/rewards/terms for redemption options and additional details.

• 21:31Andrea Gunning?

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• 22:15Andrea Gunning?

  We can't always predict the unexpected, but we can be prepared for it. Learn more at saberred.com/betrayal. That's saberred.com/betrayal. It was now mid-November 2023, and finally, law enforcement was serious about investigating Carl's case. But in many ways, this help would be coming too little, too late. Carl was already unraveling.

• 22:46Speaker 04

  I was going backwards. It was like everything that I had done over the last couple of years towards like really improving myself, whether it was my own health, or my body image, or my relationships, living on my own in Kenosha. All of those success stories in terms of my own personal growth, it was like I was going backwards on all of it. And the weight was the biggest thing.

• 23:14Andrea Gunning?

  Carl lost 150 pounds after his gastric bypass. Dealing with the stress of all this, he gained almost half of it back.

• 23:22Speaker 04

  And it was so easy for me to get down on myself for that reason.

• 23:26Andrea Gunning?

  The harassment had been going on for nearly seven months, starting on the day his new boyfriend Drew moved to Kenosha. Carl had planned for this to be the start of a beautiful life together, but he wasn't able to be the partner he wanted to be.

• 23:42Speaker 04

  I mean, like, I was not thinking about how we could progress our relationship further or do cute boyfriend things because like, we are stuck in this mode of chaos.

• 23:56Andrea Gunning?

  Carl felt like a failure. He started drinking more, and his self-esteem was almost nonexistent.

• 24:03Speaker 04

  It's pointless to even try it, because I'm just going to be the fat drunk that I was destined to always be.

• 24:11Andrea Gunning?

  But he did make one last-ditch effort to pull himself out of that hole. He thought maybe, if he could get back to doing what he loved, he could regain a piece of himself. So amidst all the chaos in his life, Carl decided to run for school board again. He loved his two previous terms. He thought maybe public service would help ground him.

• 24:33Speaker 04

  I was seeking out ways that I could come back to my, like, myself and who I really am as a person, you know, an individual who just genuinely cares about their community, getting involved in the best way that they know how. It truly felt like a means of self-care for me.

• 24:49Andrea Gunning?

  So in November 2023, Carl began putting together his campaign. But his stalker wasn't about to let him bounce back so easily. After he announced his campaign for school board, Carl got this text from a random number.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  Good luck with school board. I'd be hella sure of myself that nothing will go wrong. Not like anyone has access to all your information. That'd be horrible.

• 25:15Andrea Gunning?

  Carl had nothing to hide, and he said so. But the texter insisted. He had receipts.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  It's called knowing smart people who can find out anything I ask. I could have fucked you over so much worse, but it's so much fun just watching you stress on the daily.

• 25:31Andrea Gunning?

  Carl did his best to ignore the messages. Then...

• 25:34Speaker 04

  Text messages were starting to come in, and it was extortion threats.

• 25:40Andrea Gunning?

  The culprit promised he had information that Carl would not want out there. He'd keep it to himself if Carl was willing to pay. Carl had no idea what the texter could be referring to, what he was trying to hold over him. Over the coming weeks, Carl's stalker started blowing up his phone, demanding money.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  Should I show Andrew the proof of the shit I dug up? Or you can send me 200 bucks. Got Venmo? Do you still have my Venmo ready? I can send you the link one more time. I don't care who pays me, but I'll give it one hour. I got screenshots, babe. 200 bucks? Hello?

• 26:19Andrea Gunning?

  Carl assumed this was all a bluff, just another scare tactic. Then, on December 9th, Carl and Paul were hanging out in Carl's apartment. They were drinking, trying to have a good time, when Paul got a text. In it were nude images of Carl. So many other messages had been fake, but these photos were real.

• 26:44Speaker 04

  These were pictures I might have taken, like, when I had broken up with Adam and, like, I was going back on, like, apps.

• 26:51Andrea Gunning?

  Somehow, the stalker had gotten access to some of Carl's most private images.

• 26:57Speaker 04

  How they would have ever gotten them, I could never explain, but they got them, and now they're being used against me.

• 27:05Andrea Gunning?

  Along with the nude photos were fake text conversations, texts that made it look like Carl was actively cheating on his boyfriend Drew. Carl's anxiety was off the charts.

• 27:16Speaker 04

  We're sitting there completely stunned and frozen, and I'm drunk, but the adrenaline hits me, and it's like I didn't even have a single sip of alcohol.

• 27:25Andrea Gunning?

  Taking intimate photos is part of dating in the digital era. That in and of itself isn't a scandal anymore. But in this moment, Carl's stalker was threatening to use these photos to cause Carl harm, both professionally and personally.

• 27:43Andrea Gunning?

  Carl refused to pay. And that night, to Carl's horror, Drew received a text with the nude images and screenshots.

• 27:52Speaker 04

  It was very violating. At first, he was definitely questioning stuff, but eventually, like, he just did not take it seriously because in one of these doctored conversations, the other person responded with another private photo, and it was literally a picture of a porn star. I wish I was getting guys like that, but like, this wasn't the reality. And Drew and I both had a laugh about that. Like, I wish, but no.

• 28:18Andrea Gunning?

  It was a brief moment of lightness in an otherwise scary situation. Drew said he didn't believe anything the stalker said anyway. But after that, Carl could tell his boyfriend started to put walls up. And now, of course, there was a looming threat. Who else would get these photos?

• 28:37Speaker 07

  Were you concerned that these photos would be released?

• 28:41Speaker 04

  To anybody else. Oh, God, yeah, I was very concerned about that.

• 28:45Andrea Gunning?

  The school board elections were coming up. When Carl was elected the first time, he was the first openly queer person on the Kenosha School Board. He knew that if these images came out, he'd be judged differently. So with these images circulating, Carl dropped out of the race.

• 29:02Speaker 04

  The last thing I needed was for this to go to somebody else out in the community.

• 29:07Andrea Gunning?

  Running for the school board wasn't just another campaign. It was a chance to return to something he'd loved, going back to when he was a teenager. Now, that chance was gone, all because his stalker was blackmailing him. His sister Rebecca watched it all change Carl.

• 29:26Speaker 07

  I saw somebody who was generally very happy, kind of devolve into somebody who was very reserved, battered, untrusting.

• 29:38Andrea Gunning?

  His mom, Sue, noticed physical signs, too.

• 29:43Speaker 07

  When he's stressed, he's got a spot right here in his forehead, and then the dark circles around his eyes that you can tell. He was very short tempered during that time, just, you know, things that normally is easygoing, it wasn't easygoing anymore.

• 29:56Speaker 04

  The only thing that I could possibly do was to get a burner phone with 1990's text messaging capabilities and phone calling capabilities. And I think that was the first time that the emotions really hit me in that situation. I sat there at the kitchen table, and I broke down and cried my eyes out. And I think it was very difficult for Drew and very difficult for my mom as well, because this was a thing that nobody had answers about. Everybody was there to help, and everybody was there to support, but there was nothing that any of us could do. It was like I was continually screaming into

• 30:39Speaker 04

  the wind. But no matter what false reality people were constructing around me and Drew, I had to do these ridiculous things to protect myself. And it sucked. It really sucked.

• 30:55Andrea Gunning?

  Paul had turned Carl's life upside down. Seeing Carl in such pain, you might think he'd stop, but he wasn't finished. He only took this as a sign to push further. On January 5, 2024, Kenosha's non-emergency dispatch received a call. Hello, my name is Carl Bryan. I'm calling in from Kenosha, 16th place, and my boyfriend Andrew Condon has a knife. Someone was pretending to be Carl. The caller said that his boyfriend Drew had a knife and had locked himself in the bathroom. As dispatch communicated with each other about what to do, they acknowledged that something was off about the call.

• 31:39Andrea Gunning?

  This person had like, it sounded like a drilled deep voice, it sounded like he was using like a voice changer. Yet, they had to assume this was a real emergency. Deputy Roors explains.

• 31:51Speaker 04

  We can't just not do anything, because if, God forbid, something does happen, then that's obviously going to not only look bad, but also be very bad.

• 31:59Andrea Gunning?

  So dispatch sent Kenosha sheriffs to the house right away. Deputy Roors heard the call come over the police radio. Multiple officers were sent with weapons at their ready.

• 32:11Speaker 04

  Going to those calls, your adrenaline's pumping because you don't know what's gonna happen. All the other squads were coming to this house thinking that it was a barricaded subject or somebody was going to get killed. Drew and I had just gotten to bed, and we'd gotten a pounding at the door. And I answered right away, and I saw multiple squad cars with the lights on. And the officer that I'd spoken to was like, Someone called in a weapons call. And I'm like, what are you talking about? They could clearly see when they went into the bathroom, there was no knife, there was no blood, there was no Drew. They

• 32:52Speaker 04

  asked Drew to come out, he was still in his underwear. It was so violating.

• 32:58Andrea Gunning?

  And the whole situation was incredibly dangerous. False reporting of emergencies is known as swatting, as in calling a SWAT team, and it's considered a serious crime. People can and have died from calls like these.

• 33:15Speaker 04

  One miscommunication, one mistake, could have resulted in somebody getting shot and killed. I am freaking out from that because I'm like inches away from the possibility of somebody dying.

• 33:29Andrea Gunning?

  Deputy Roors knew about Carl and Drew's harassment.

• 33:33Speaker 04

  And so I knew that most likely it was gonna be unfounded.

• 33:37Andrea Gunning?

  When he heard the call for service come over the radio, he rushed to alert his team. He managed to slow things down before anyone got hurt.

• 33:46Speaker 04

  If I wasn't there and didn't have that knowledge, then it would have been those six people going and having to almost kick down the door.

• 33:53Andrea Gunning?

  The night ended, and everyone was physically okay, but the ordeal shook Carl to his core.

• 33:59Speaker 04

  To me, it was like, what is even real life at this point? It was just an assault on my grasp on reality. And I'm here trying to manage some semblance of normalcy, but I can barely hold it together myself. I was not suicidal, but I will say, it literally is gonna take for me to die for this to end, it feels like. And it was like, the only way this is ever gonna stop is somebody dead.

• 34:46Andrea Gunning?

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• 35:21Speaker 01

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• 35:36Andrea Gunning?

  One thing I've learned from producing true crime these past few years is that life can change in an instant. Most people never expect to find themselves in a dangerous situation. They're heading home from work, walking the dog, meeting a friend, traveling alone, and they assume it's just another ordinary day, until it isn't. That's why I want you to know about Saber Smart Pepper Spray. Yes, it's designed to help protect you, but what makes it different is the connected app. If you're ever forced to use it in an emergency, it can alert your emergency contacts and share your location. So on every second matters, the people who care about you most aren't left wondering where you are. They're not left searching, they're not left guessing, they know where to start.

• 36:21Andrea Gunning?

  We can't always predict the unexpected, but we can be prepared for it. Learn more at saberred.com/betrayal. That's saberred.com/betrayal.

• 36:34Andrea Gunning?

  After the swatting incident at Carl's home, Deputy Roors did some investigating, and he realized something. The call about Drew having a knife was called into a non-emergency number. In hindsight, this should have been a significant clue that the call was fake. Here is Deputy Roors again.

• 36:54Speaker 04

  Most people, when they need police, they call 911. And if you call non-emergency for an emergency, it's most likely made up.

• 37:02Andrea Gunning?

  That's because 911 screens for spoof calls.

• 37:06Speaker 04

  And because when they're using spoof numbers, they aren't able to dial 911.

• 37:11Andrea Gunning?

  It seemed like the harasser knew this, because instead of calling 911 to report these fake emergencies, they called non-emergency dispatch. Over the next few days, Kenosha County Sheriff's non-emergency dispatch line received over 30 fake calls. All of them appeared to come from Carl and members of his family. This was draining law enforcement resources, and Deputy Roors was fed up.

• 37:40Speaker 04

  I knew how upsetting and frustrating it was for Carl and Andrew, who were having to live with this. I mean, I go home at the end of the night, and I can turn off my phone, and I don't have to deal with it. This was their lives.

• 37:54Andrea Gunning?

  The sheriff's office put more resources on the case. That's when a detective was brought on to partner with Deputy Roors. My name is Allison George, and I'm a detective with the Kenosha County Sheriff's Office.

• 38:07Speaker 07

  I first started working on this case in January of 2024.

• 38:11Andrea Gunning?

  Detective George had special training in internet crimes like spoofing. So she started reading through the case file.

• 38:19Speaker 07

  Based on the extent of the spoofing and the places that were being spoofed called, such as the dispatch center, it told me that this perpetrator was going to great lengths to conceal their identity and that they were likely on a smart device utilizing all these different applications.

• 38:37Andrea Gunning?

  Immediately, she knew what law enforcement needed to do to crack this case: subpoena the spoofing companies. You see, spoofing apps aren't a completely foolproof way to hide a caller's identity. In fact, the software companies that produce these apps cooperate with police investigations all the time.

• 38:55Speaker 07

  If law enforcement are reaching out, they'll say, "Yep, send me a subpoena, and we will get you the information of who's using our application to place those calls."

• 39:03Andrea Gunning?

  So Detective George sent out several subpoenas to the spoofing companies. The only problem was those records could take weeks to come back, or in some cases, even longer. In the meantime, George returned to the case file, and she was stunned to see the spreadsheet Carl made, logging every harassing call and text. As she combed through it, she came to the same conclusion as Carl: his ex-boyfriend, Adam Mahia, was likely their guy.

• 39:34Speaker 07

  All that information that we had constituted probable cause to believe that Adam Mahia was actually the perpetrator of this.

• 39:42Andrea Gunning?

  Probable cause. Maybe there wasn't enough evidence to arrest Adam just yet, but all signs pointed towards him, and that allowed Detective George to justify other methods of investigation.

• 39:56Speaker 07

  So in coordination with the attorney's office, a search warrant was authored. It was approved by a judge, and we went up to the city that Mr. Mahia lives in and met with Mr. Mahia and executed that search warrant.

• 40:11Andrea Gunning?

  Kenosha sheriffs decided to divide and conquer. One group of investigators searched Adam's partner's house, where Adam was living. At the same time, Detective George and Deputy Roors tracked down Adam. And he wasn't hard to find. They showed up at his regularly scheduled probation meeting. Remember, Adam was still on probation for his DUI. Detectives took him to a local police station for questioning.

• 40:38Speaker 07

  All right, make yourself comfortable. Like I said, I really appreciate you taking some time out of your day to come down here.

• 40:43Speaker 05

  Well, you didn't even grab me, but I would have came anyways, because this is bullshit.

• 40:50Andrea Gunning?

  This footage is from Adam's interrogation. In the video, Adam takes off his winter jacket and sits down across from the sheriffs. Before this meeting, authorities thought they understood the kind of person they'd be questioning. Judging by the texts they'd seen, this perpetrator was a vindictive, manipulative guy, a jealous ex who'd stop at nothing to destroy Carl's life. But the man they met that day in January 2024 was none of those things.

• 41:20Speaker 05

  I'm trying to do good. I'm trying to move away from where I was at. You know, I'm trying to just be clean and sober. I was fucked up for three years of my life on alcohol, and I dated my best friend. It was a horrible situation. I don't want any of that anymore. I'm trying to move on, and it keeps getting thrown in my face. Like, I swear, this is not me.

• 41:43Speaker 04

  But then who?

• 41:44Speaker 05

  I don't know who. I seriously, I don't know.

• 41:48Speaker 04

  Why would somebody be trying to send you to jail?

• 41:50Speaker 05

  I do not know.

• 41:53Andrea Gunning?

  Detective George decided to try a little harder, to see if Adam would confess to it. At one point, she lied to Adam, saying they already had proof that the spoof calls came from him. This is a common tactic used in police interrogations, to see if the suspect will crack once they think they've been caught.

• 42:13Speaker 07

  What we're doing through this is basically starting from the beginning, right? Because we have these phone calls that came in from dispatch. We have the numbers that they came from, which we know are fake, and so we track them backwards. Okay?

• 42:25Speaker 05

  Which that's what I actually said to begin with, that that's what should be done.

• 42:30Speaker 07

  Right. The problem is, it's pointing in your direction.

• 42:33Speaker 05

  How?

• 42:35Speaker 07

  That's what I'd like you to explain to me.

• 42:37Speaker 05

  I seriously do not know how. I'm like 100% have no clue how that could happen, because I have not contacted anyone.

• 42:49Andrea Gunning?

  Adam stuck to his story. He was innocent. But there was still so much evidence that seemed to confirm it was him.

• 42:57Speaker 04

  Somebody has been calling the dispatch center, is essentially swatting.

• 43:00Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 43:01Speaker 04

  And if it comes back to your IP address, I mean, that's not gonna, I mean, that's gonna be definitive that it was you.

• 43:06Speaker 05

  It's not going to.

• 43:08Speaker 04

  So it's not going to come back?

• 43:09Speaker 05

  No.

• 43:09Speaker 07

  Did you know that the voice changer didn't work that time that you called our dispatch?

• 43:12Speaker 05

  What are you talking about?

• 43:14Speaker 07

  When we compare that to the phone call to our dispatch center, it's the same voice.

• 43:21Speaker 05

  It's not the same voice. I did not call them.

• 43:23Andrea Gunning?

  Detective George played the animal abuse call for Adam.

• 43:26Speaker 05

  It's a feminine gay guy, but it's not me. I'm like, I'm telling you, I did not call them.

• 43:33Speaker 07

  Seriously, I have not called. I'm cutting the bullshit here.

• 43:36Speaker 05

  No, I am too. I have not called.

• 43:40Andrea Gunning?

  This was one of the only moments in the interrogation where Adam seemed on edge. Detective George saw the shift in his body.

• 43:48Speaker 05

  I promise you, because this is ridic, how are you going to accuse me of doing something that I didn't do? I have not called.

• 43:55Speaker 07

  I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm confronting you with the facts.

• 43:58Speaker 05

  And I'm being honest. I have not called, and this has been going on for too long.

• 44:02Andrea Gunning?

  Adam was upset, but through it all, he was cooperative. He gave the cops as much information as he knew. He even willingly handed over his phone.

• 44:12Speaker 05

  Look, all you need, because this is stupid.

• 44:16Andrea Gunning?

  About a half hour into the interview, Deputy Roors and Detective George took a pause. They stepped outside and looked at each other. They were baffled.

• 44:26Speaker 04

  As a cop, you generally get very good at reading people and knowing what's bullshit and what's the truth. And Adam's completely blindsided. He truly didn't seem like he knew anything, and I kind of felt bad for him.

• 44:40Andrea Gunning?

  Adam was forthcoming. The sheriffs were thrown off. Maybe there was more to this story after all. Meanwhile, there were still other cops at Adam's home, executing the search warrant. Detective Morrow led the investigation.

• 44:58Speaker 06

  Couple of us went to the house and went and looked at it. Looked like your normal, everyday house, kind of like this that we're in right now, right?

• 45:05Andrea Gunning?

  They walked through the home, gathering things that might be helpful: a laptop, an SD card, some paper files. And then?

• 45:13Speaker 06

  Look around the whole thing and finally find the Cubs hat, and right then, it's kind of like a light bulb, like, oh shit, this is our guy.

• 45:22Andrea Gunning?

  You might remember the Cubs hat from the last episode. When Adam moved out, he took a Cubs hat Carl cherished. This hat was often mentioned in messages to Carl and Paul.

• 45:32Speaker 03

  How badly does Carl want this hat back? I'll mail the hat if you want, since you probably don't want to see me ever again. I wanted to give him the hat back, but I get blocked every time.

• 45:44Andrea Gunning?

  It might seem like an insignificant detail, but Carl was sure. Only he and Adam knew about the hat. So to detectives at the scene, this hat was the missing piece. It was verification of Carl's story, strong circumstantial evidence that Adam Mahia was behind the harassment. Deputy Roors and Detective George were still on their break, standing outside the interview room when they got the news. Detective George had asked Adam about the hat early on in the interview.

• 46:16Speaker 07

  We are executing a search warrant.

• 46:18Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 46:20Speaker 07

  Are they gonna find that stupid hat that everyone keeps talking about?

• 46:24Speaker 05

  I don't know what hat you're gonna talk about.

• 46:25Speaker 07

  I'm not sure. It's something Chicago Cubs. And then later on, towards the end, communicating with the officers who were executing the search warrant at his home, well, they found that hat there.

• 46:37Speaker 07

  Sorry, I just talked to my witness over at your house. He found the hat. Which hat? The Chicago Cubs one.

• 46:45Speaker 05

  I remember what hat now you're talking about. You said yellow one, and I saw yellow and brown.

• 46:49Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:49Speaker 05

  I have not worn it at all since I've been here. And you have had one? And I don't need it. No, because it was downstairs in the basement, I think.

• 46:57Andrea Gunning?

  Adam insisted. The hat was buried in storage. He just forgot he had it. But to Detective George, it felt like she'd caught Adam in a lie. There was mounting evidence, and Detective George had to make a decision. We have body camera footage of what happened next.

• 47:17Speaker 07

  I am, first of all, incredibly confused about what is all going on.

• 47:21Speaker 05

  Oh, am I?

• 47:23Speaker 07

  Um, we are going to be taking you into custody.

• 47:25Speaker 05

  What?

• 47:26Speaker 07

  For one count of stalking.

• 47:28Andrea Gunning?

  If you didn't catch that, let me repeat it. Adam was being arrested on one count of felony stalking. He was going to jail. On paper, it all made sense. But detectives had the wrong guy.

• 47:43Speaker 07

  You will have a court appearance, probably maybe tomorrow at one. I can tell you that I'm going to be digging a lot deeper into this. And if there is someone else who is causing issues, I will find out.

• 47:56Speaker 04

  As of right now, like we told you, everything is pointing towards you. I understand if it's not you, then you honestly have nothing to worry about.

• 48:04Andrea Gunning?

  Nothing to worry about, except that he was being taken to jail for a crime he didn't commit.

• 48:10Speaker 07

  You have been completely chill and cooperative. We are going to be as chill and cooperative with you as can. We are going to take you into custody. We have to take you to the Comanche County Jail. We will be booked and see a judge.

• 48:20Speaker 05

  A no shot? How long am I going to be incarcerated for?

• 48:23Speaker 07

  That I don't know.

• 48:24Speaker 05

  So I don't know when I'm getting out.

• 48:26Speaker 07

  Unfortunately not.

• 48:26Speaker 04

  And that is not, once again, our... If you want to face over, uh, here, just turn this way. There we go.

• 48:34Andrea Gunning?

  Deputy Roors searched Adam's pockets to make sure he had nothing on him. The whole time, Adam kept his wits about him.

• 48:43Speaker 05

  Do I give a phone call?

• 48:45Speaker 04

  You've been cool with us, so we're going to let you make your phone call using one of our phones before you get done.

• 48:51Speaker 05

  This is all because of stalking. Yeah.

• 48:53Speaker 07

  Yeah, we're going to take you to the restroom, then we'll park the car. I'll come back and grab you some.

• 48:58Andrea Gunning?

  Based on his behavior, the authorities allowed Adam to call his mother from the police car.

• 49:03Speaker 05

  Right now, I'm okay. I'll call you as soon as I can.

• 49:07Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 49:08Speaker 05

  When I find out more information, and I just pray that I'm going to be okay.

• 49:13Speaker 07

  It's just not cool.

• 49:14Speaker 05

  I love you.

• 49:16Speaker 07

  So, that's all right.

• 49:19Speaker 05

  I didn't do anything. I love you.

• 49:22Speaker 07

  Yeah, I love you too.

• 49:23Speaker 05

  Try not to get too worked up about this.

• 49:26Speaker 07

  Oh, I'm already worked up. I'm already worked up. Because I just can't believe it. I just cannot believe it.

• 49:33Speaker 05

  Just pray. Please, just pray.

• 49:39Andrea Gunning?

  Before the day could end, there was one last thing Deputy Roors needed to do. Deliver the news to Carl.

• 49:46Speaker 05

  Wrigley, okay.

• 49:47Andrea Gunning?

  No!

• 49:49Speaker 05

  Take a chill.

• 49:49Speaker 04

  Take a tap on.

• 49:50Andrea Gunning?

  Yeah. When he got to Carl's house late that night, he found Carl hanging out with a friend. Paul Augustine just so happened to be there.

• 50:00Speaker 05

  He's actually your friend.

• 50:01Andrea Gunning?

  Oh, my God!

• 50:03Speaker 05

  Say hi. How do you feel?

• 50:05Andrea Gunning?

  Good, I'm all right.

• 50:06Speaker 05

  Good, I know.

• 50:07Andrea Gunning?

  So...

• 50:07Speaker 04

  I'm going to get you out of the bedroom. He's just going to...

• 50:09Speaker 05

  Sorry.

• 50:10Andrea Gunning?

  No, it's okay. So he got arrested today?

• 50:13Speaker 07

  Oh! Yeah!

• 50:15Andrea Gunning?

  Yeah. That gasp came from Paul, the actual perpetrator. In the moment, his reaction made sense. After all, he'd been a target too. He and Carl had been in this together from day one.

• 50:31Speaker 04

  So as of right now, we're still going through his phones and everything. Um, the hard part isn't over. He's basically, he's just been put in, he's been arrested for stalking.

• 50:41Speaker 05

  Okay. You personally weren't, I mean, because you're, it's not like...

• 50:45Speaker 04

  No.

• 50:45Speaker 05

  You personally had to drive up there to do it? You seriously did? Oh, oh, my God!

• 50:50Speaker 04

  I've been there all day, so...

• 50:52Speaker 05

  Oh, my God! I don't know. You probably can't answer, but I'm still going to ask anyways. If you can't, it's fine, but how did he even react?

• 51:01Speaker 04

  He was surprisingly calm. I will, I will give him that.

• 51:05Andrea Gunning?

  There was only one person in the room who knew the truth, and he was asking all the questions. Paul could barely contain his glee.

• 51:14Speaker 05

  Are you excited?

• 51:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, I can actually stay. You know, I haven't stayed here in two weeks. I might actually stay here tonight.

• 51:20Andrea Gunning?

  All Carl wanted was a night of peace. Now, he was getting it, and his best friend Paul was there to enjoy it with him.

• 51:28Speaker 05

  We have a need to make a joke. We call this house Camp Harassment. We do, we do. But now it's Camp Celebration.

• 51:41Andrea Gunning?

  On the next episode of Betrayal, Carl's ex-boyfriend, the man everyone believed was responsible, the man who went to jail for a crime he didn't commit, Adam tells his side of the story.

• 51:53Speaker 05

  During the whole case, my voice was never heard. Carl's been through hell and back. Andrew's been through hell and back. But they all told their story. They were all able to report it to police. But with me, how do you report it to police when police are the ones telling you? You're doing this.

• 52:18Andrea Gunning?

  If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at [email protected]. That is [email protected]. Or follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod or me at It's Andrea Gunning. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.

• 53:02Andrea Gunning?

  The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Carrie Hartman and Caitlin Golden. Our story editor is Monique LaBord, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our production manager is Kristen Mulcory. Our associate producer is Leah Jablow. Additional support by Curry Richmond and Olivia Hewitt. Our iHeart team is Ally Perry and Jessica Krychek. Audio editing and voice acting by Tanner Robbins. Mixing and mastering by Matt Del Vecchio. And special thanks to Carl Bryan, Adam Mejia, Matt Rolsey, and their communities. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by MyB Music.

• 53:44Andrea Gunning?

  And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 53:57Andrea Gunning?

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• 56:45Andrea Gunning?

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