Eileen | Betrayal Weekly

For 30 years, Eileen trusted her husband. Until one confession reveals secrets that threaten not just their marriage, but her life. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal team by emailing us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. You can also find us on Instagram at @betrayalpod https://www.instagram.com/betrayalpod/ and @glasspodcasts https://www.instagram.com/glasspodcasts/. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. If you are currently in crisis, please reach out to organizations that offer immediate support. We are including a few US-based resources here: 988 Lifeline. https://988lifeline.org/ If you or someone you know is in crisis or need to talk to someone immediately, please call or text 988 – the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline available 24/7/365. National Domestic Violence Hotline https://www.thehotline.org/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=domestic_violence. They offer 24/7 phone and chat support to help you create a personalized safety plan and connect you with local support. For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org/betrayal. You can also get free, confidential, 24/7 support through RAINN’s National Sexual Assault Hotline. Text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE. Every state has a domestic violence coalition. If you’re looking for help in the US, search the web for your state’s domestic violence coalition. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:05Andrea Gunning?

  You know the saying, "Knowledge is power"? Well, it's a lot more than that. Knowledge can be growth, security, opportunity. And no one knows that better than Southern New Hampshire University. That's why they offer over 200 online degree programs designed to help you reach your goals. Set yourself up for success or get ready to pivot into something new. No matter your program, you'll learn practical, career-focused skills you can use on the job. And don't worry, getting your degree online doesn't mean doing it alone. Southern New Hampshire University has some of the best student support in online education. From day one to graduation, you'll have friendly, knowledgeable people to help you with everything,

• 0:47Andrea Gunning?

  from applying and financial aid to tutoring and career development. At Southern New Hampshire University, knowledge can be life-changing. Get started at SNHU.edu/Betrayal. That's SNHU.edu/Betrayal. Listen, we're all trying to save for something. For me, I love to save up for a really nice vacation and maybe put some money aside for a new car. It's always nice having something to look forward to. And knowing you're actually making progress towards those bigger goals feels really good. But in reality, it can be hard to actually save money. But that's what's great about the OnePay app. It makes saving money easy. First, you earn 3% cash back on up to $150.

• 1:31Andrea Gunning?

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• 1:48Speaker 02

  OnePay is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by Coastal Community Bank or Lead Bank, members FDIC. Cash back is earned as points. Go to onepay.com/rewards/terms for redemption options and additional details.

• 2:04Andrea Gunning?

  Some people never expected their lives to change in an instant. Most of us don't. That's why I want you to know about Saber Smart Pepper Spray. Yes, it helps protect you, but what makes it different is the connected app. If you're ever forced to use it in an emergency, it can alert your emergency contacts and share your location. So the people who love you aren't left searching. They're not left guessing. They know where to start. Visit saberred.com/betrayal. That's saberred.com/betrayal.

• 2:36Speaker 03

  When this did start unraveling, he actually used the words, "I've been unmasked." He loved that people thought of him as this boring economist. And at night, on weekends, he was living this wild life that nobody knew about. I thought, "You put my life in danger and never gave me the option to opt out."

• 3:14Andrea Gunning?

  I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything.

• 3:25Andrea Gunning?

  Sometimes on our show, we tell stories of a life destroyed in an instant. The betrayal is like a rock thrown into a window. With one strike of the glass, everything shatters. But then there are other stories where the window doesn't break on that first throw. There are many secrets, many discoveries, sometimes uncovered weeks or even years apart. Each discovery sends a crack through the glass until finally, it all falls apart. That was the case for Eileen.

• 4:02Andrea Gunning?

  Eileen grew up in the 60s and 70s, just outside of Boston. She was part of a big Irish Catholic family, the fourth of seven children.

• 4:13Speaker 03

  It was a happy house full of very strong opinions. And our family was always trying to one-up each other with storytelling and jokes.

• 4:24Andrea Gunning?

  In a house of nine, she learned to speak up.

• 4:27Speaker 03

  I can be a little bit feisty.

• 4:32Andrea Gunning?

  It's no wonder she gravitated towards politics.

• 4:36Speaker 03

  In high school, I was kind of driven to do things that I thought would be important for the country. I had been a page in Congress in Washington DC in my high school years and had interned down there. And I had a very defined vision of going into politics.

• 4:53Andrea Gunning?

  So right after she graduated college, she moved to DC.

• 4:57Speaker 03

  I was working in Washington for a political consulting firm.

• 5:02Andrea Gunning?

  After a few months on the job, she began to doubt whether politics was really for her. This had been the career she'd always imagined, but she hadn't ever really considered other options.

• 5:16Speaker 03

  I probably was in a bit of a crisis in my life at that moment, questioning, "Oh, am I really doing the right thing?" I was kind of bobbing around in the water, looking for my purpose and really missing Boston.

• 5:34Andrea Gunning?

  That summer of 1986, she had to travel back home for a wedding. One of her cousins also happened to be in town.

• 5:42Speaker 03

  A distant cousin of mine was over from Ireland. And he was living in a household full of Irish people who were working there.

• 5:53Andrea Gunning?

  Eileen decided to spend a night out in Boston with her cousin and his friends.

• 5:58Speaker 03

  We were all going out tonight, and let's all go to this party.

• 6:01Andrea Gunning?

  They went out to an Irish pub, and that's where she met a man we're going to call Paul. He was friends with her cousin.

• 6:09Speaker 03

  He was a little shy, and that's sort of why I began talking to him. I wanted to draw him out.

• 6:15Andrea Gunning?

  Very quickly, she could tell, he was smart.

• 6:19Speaker 03

  He was the oldest of five children, the only one to go to college. And going to university in Ireland in those days wasn't common. I think only about 10% of the population went to college at that point.

• 6:33Andrea Gunning?

  He told Eileen he was only in Boston for summer break. He was in the middle of a five-year degree back in Ireland, and he was serious about his studies.

• 6:44Speaker 03

  And I kind of perked up because I thought, "Oh, okay, here's another ambitious, driven person." And that was really what piqued my interest.

• 6:54Andrea Gunning?

  But Paul was more than just a brain.

• 6:56Speaker 03

  He showed me kind of a little hidden side of him. He was sitting across from me, and I was sipping a drink through a straw. And he said, "Oh, to be a straw." I was flabbergasted because I thought, "I was totally not expecting that from you."

• 7:15Andrea Gunning?

  She liked his sense of humor. Even more so, she liked how Paul put her at ease. With him, she just felt calm. This was a transition point in her life. She was looking to ground herself.

• 7:30Speaker 03

  And I liked the idea of a comfortable, stable person by my side to help me do that.

• 7:38Speaker 03

  He was safe and soothing.

• 7:40Andrea Gunning?

  Soon after that night at the pub, Eileen left DC for good. She moved back to Boston and found a job working at an art gallery. That's when she and Paul went on their first real date.

• 7:53Speaker 03

  It was about a 12-hour date. We started in the morning, and we were walking around Boston, went to a movie, Blue Velvet, I believe. We went out to dinner on Newbury Street. We just had this marathon date. And then he put me in a taxi to go home. And I remember glancing over my shoulder, and he had been kind of like waving goodbye and sort of blowing kisses to me. And that was my last image of our first date. And I thought, "Wow, this guy."

• 8:23Andrea Gunning?

  Around that time, Paul decided that he wasn't ready to leave Boston just yet. He took a year off from school and got a construction job to make some money. So through that fall, Paul and Eileen started officially dating. They got into a rhythm.

• 8:38Speaker 03

  He would meet me in Cambridge, and we'd go and have pizza, and we'd walk around, go to museums, go on walks, things like that. It was a very peaceful time in my life and very routine. And I think I needed that at that moment.

• 8:56Andrea Gunning?

  To Eileen, Paul was an anchor. Being with him just felt right. And then...

• 9:03Speaker 03

  We had been dating about 10 months, 11 months, when I became pregnant.

• 9:10Andrea Gunning?

  Eileen was only 23. Paul was 22.

• 9:14Speaker 03

  I had mentioned that I'm from a Catholic family, and so was he, rural Ireland. And so we had decided, "We're having this baby, and we'll get married at some point."

• 9:26Andrea Gunning?

  At some point, didn't exactly go over well with their Catholic parents. So when Eileen was seven months pregnant, they had a wedding.

• 9:35Speaker 03

  We got married in December, two days after Christmas. Our son was born, actually on Valentine's Day in 1988.

• 9:43Andrea Gunning?

  While Paul went back to school to finish his degree, Eileen stayed home with the baby. She loved those early years of motherhood.

• 9:51Speaker 03

  I think I took like a duck to water. Being with my son and doing this with my husband, we were a team.

• 10:00Andrea Gunning?

  In many ways, their relationship was happening backwards. They got pregnant, got married, and only then did they have the opportunity to really get to know each other.

• 10:10Speaker 03

  And I think as I got to know him more, our relationship deepened.

• 10:15Andrea Gunning?

  Even though Paul was busy with school, he made time for her and their son. She admired how thoughtful he was when it came to their little family.

• 10:25Speaker 03

  He grew up in a very unhappy household. And so I think he was learning how to be a husband and a father, not in the mold of his parents. He was still trying to please his family, but I thought he was doing his best by us, too. You know, he was going to school, working hard, coming home, helping with the baby. Our life was continuing as I thought it would, with family a center.

• 10:57Andrea Gunning?

  Paul graduated a couple of years after the baby came, and new opportunities quickly opened up for him. He got a PhD in a specialty of economics.

• 11:08Speaker 03

  And during those four years, we had two more children. I had just had my third when he got an offer to become a professor, and I could not have been prouder of him. I thought, this is great.

• 11:20Andrea Gunning?

  They moved to a university town in the Midwest with their three kids in tow. And then, within two years of being there...

• 11:28Speaker 03

  We had a fourth child, and that completed our family.

• 11:33Andrea Gunning?

  Their life was starting to look a lot like hers growing up. They had a full house. And as the kids got older, their home became a hub of activity. There was always a sports practice to drive someone to, a science project to get done, a school play to see. Paul and Eileen held it down together.

• 11:53Speaker 03

  We were literally dividing and conquering for attending events. And he was a very present father at their sports events, taking them to soccer tournaments, taking them to track meets.

• 12:05Andrea Gunning?

  Still, they managed to find calm amidst the chaos.

• 12:10Speaker 03

  We would have dinner every night as a family, whether it was at 8 o'clock after sports ended or whether it was at 6 o'clock when everybody was home for that night.

• 12:19Andrea Gunning?

  But they would also carve out time for just the two of them.

• 12:23Speaker 03

  You know, going for hikes on the prairie, and he would plan little getaways.

• 12:30Andrea Gunning?

  Paul also made a point to show Eileen how much he loved her with small, everyday gestures.

• 12:37Speaker 03

  Bringing me coffee in bed, or, you know, on Sundays, he'd bring me the New York Times. I mean, when you see what we looked like as a family, we'd be the last people, you would imagine. This would be what happened to them.

• 12:55Andrea Gunning?

  The years passed without incident, with Paul teaching at the local university. The kids all grew up and went off to college. After many years as a stay-at-home mom, Eileen got a master's and went back to work in the school system. But after 22 years in their small Midwestern town, things got a little boring. Paul and Eileen were ready for a change.

• 13:18Speaker 03

  So he decided to apply for a department head at another land-grant university, and he ended up getting that job.

• 13:28Andrea Gunning?

  They'd be moving eight hours away to a bigger city in the Midwest. At this point, Paul and Eileen were in their 50s. They were now empty nesters, looking forward to retirement. This would be the final chapter of Paul's career, and he was finishing out in a prestigious position as the head of his academic department.

• 13:50Speaker 03

  I was extremely excited, not just for him career-wise, but for us as a couple, because we never had that time at the beginning of our marriage to embrace each other and get to know each other. And I thought, now we get it. Now's our time to connect on a deeper level and to have that. And so, almost 30 years later, we get to be newlyweds again. And I was super excited about the future.

• 14:18Andrea Gunning?

  Paul moved to the new city first, in January of 2017. He spent a few months getting oriented to his new job. Eileen stayed back, packing up their family home. Finally, when summer arrived, Eileen joined him.

• 14:33Speaker 03

  And that's where my life imploded.

• 14:37Andrea Gunning?

  That summer, they had to drive out of state for a wedding. But one day, as they were gearing up for the trip, Paul sat Eileen down.

• 14:46Speaker 03

  He had to tell me that he had lost his license. And I was like, what? And I said, what happened? And he said, well, I got pulled over for a DUI. I was shocked.

• 14:59Andrea Gunning?

  Paul drank, to be sure. Still, she never expected Paul to drink and drive. But that revelation was only the beginning. Eileen soon learned that during their time apart, Paul had been building a new life.

• 15:15Speaker 03

  And he said, well, there's more. And I said, what more could there be? He got a DUI. And he said, well, it happened on my way back from a nudist resort in Indiana.

• 15:47Andrea Gunning?

  If you've ever tried to find a psychiatrist who takes your insurance, you know how frustrating it can be. Long wait lists, no availability, or finding out they don't accept your insurance at all. That's why I'm excited to tell you about Talkiatory. Talkiatory is a 100% online psychiatry practice that provides comprehensive evaluations, diagnoses, and ongoing medication management for conditions like ADHD, anxiety, depression, and more. Unlike therapy-only platforms, Talkiatory connects you with licensed medical providers who can diagnose mental health conditions and prescribe medication when it's appropriate. Their 800-plus clinicians are in-network with major insurers. And getting started is simple.

• 16:31Andrea Gunning?

  Just complete a short online assessment, get matched with a clinician who fits your needs, and you can schedule your first appointment in days, not months. Plus, you'll continue seeing the same provider so your treatment can grow with you over time. Head to talkiatory.com/betrayal to complete the short assessment and get matched with an in-network psychiatrist in just a few minutes. That's T-A-L-K-I-A-T-R-Y.com/betrayal to get matched in minutes. Talkiatory.com/betrayal. Talkiatory.com/betrayal. One thing I've learned from producing true crime these past few years is that life can change in an instant. Most people never expect to find themselves in a dangerous situation.

• 17:16Andrea Gunning?

  They're heading home from work, walking the dog, meeting a friend, traveling alone, and they assume it's just another ordinary day, until it isn't. That's why I want you to know about Saber Smart Pepper Spray. Yes, it's designed to help protect you, but what makes it different is the connected app. If you're ever forced to use it in an emergency, it can alert your emergency contacts and share your location. So when every second matters, the people who care about you most aren't left wondering where you are. They're not left searching, they're not left guessing, they know where to start. We can't always predict the unexpected, but we can be prepared for it. Learn more at saberred.com/betrayal. That's saberred.com/betrayal.

• 18:01Andrea Gunning?

  You know the saying, "Knowledge is power"? Well, it's a lot more than that. Knowledge can be growth, security, opportunity. And no one knows that better than Southern New Hampshire University. That's why they offer over 200 online degree programs designed to help you reach your goals. Set yourself up for success or get ready to pivot into something new. No matter your program, you'll learn practical, career-focused skills you can use on the job. And don't worry, getting your degree online doesn't mean doing it alone. Southern New Hampshire University has some of the best student support and online education. From day one to graduation, you'll have friendly, knowledgeable people to help you with everything,

• 18:44Andrea Gunning?

  from applying and financial aid to tutoring and career development. At Southern New Hampshire University, knowledge can be life-changing. Get started at SNHU.edu/betrayal. That's SNHU.edu/betrayal. Eileen had been married to her husband for 30 years. And for 30 years, she'd known him to be a shy, even-kill guy. He was a mild-mannered professor, the steady and hard-working father to their four children. In July 2017, they had just moved to a new city in the Midwest so Paul could start as a university department head. But just as they were about to begin this new chapter,

• 19:28Andrea Gunning?

  Paul made a shocking revelation. He'd gotten a DUI and lost his license while on the way home from a nudist resort.

• 19:40Speaker 03

  My heart stopped. I was like, what in the world are you talking about?

• 19:47Andrea Gunning?

  nudist resorts weren't part of their life together. He'd been hiding this from her, but Paul was acting like it was all no big deal.

• 19:56Speaker 03

  And he said, I went to Indiana and I went to a nudist resort. And they had an after-party and I got drunk and on the way home, I was stopped for drunk driving and they arrested me and they kept him in a drunk tank for the night.

• 20:12Andrea Gunning?

  This was the first Eileen was hearing of any of this. Remember, Eileen had just joined Paul. She'd been getting ready to move while Paul was settling in at his new job that first semester. While they were apart, Paul had tried to sweep all of this under the rug. He hired a lawyer and argued that since this was his first offense, he should be let off. But at the court hearing for his DUI, he was hit with some serious consequences.

• 20:40Speaker 03

  The judge in his case said, I'm revoking your license for a year.

• 20:44Andrea Gunning?

  Eileen couldn't tell what stunned her more, the DUI or the party at the nudist resort.

• 20:51Speaker 03

  And he said, I was just curious. It was my first time. I've never done anything like this. You were gone. I just wanted to see what this was like. And then I remember actually Googling, is it cheating to go to a nudist resort?

• 21:08Andrea Gunning?

  She began to wonder, what else had he been up to before she moved?

• 21:14Speaker 03

  We used to leave our laptops out on tables. And I was like, you know, I sometimes see your email. I've never seen anything from a lawyer. And I said, show me the emails from your lawyer. And he's in front of me and he's tapping away and he's like, I don't know where I put them. They must be in some other folder. I don't know where they are. And so I left him. I said, well, show me when you get them. And I left the room and he came in 10 minutes later, put the laptop on my lap and said, here they are. And there were the emails, but I could see that they had been imported from an email address I had never seen and didn't recognize.

• 21:56Speaker 03

  And I was like, there's something very off.

• 21:58Andrea Gunning?

  So the next day, while Paul was at work, she tried to log into that unfamiliar email address.

• 22:06Speaker 03

  I started plugging in some of his known passwords. And I think about the 10th, 11th one that I was just sleuthing. It popped open and I see hundreds of messages from Craigslist. I saw him responding to hundreds of Craigslist ads for anonymous meetings with men.

• 22:32Andrea Gunning?

  She scrolled and scrolled, trying to wrap her mind around what she was reading.

• 22:38Speaker 03

  It was a lot of sexual conversations, like where do you go for a glory hole? Or what sex store is the best? He replied to somebody who wanted to give a Mother's Day gift to their wife by having two men at the same time. And my husband had answered it and said, that's my dream come true.

• 23:05Andrea Gunning?

  She never knew her husband was interested in men or group sex. Even if he never acted on it, this was all shocking information to Eileen. And this wasn't a new habit. His emails showed that he'd been sending messages like this for years.

• 23:22Speaker 03

  It was like a kick in the gut. Like I had just been stabbed. Something at my core had been violated and I just couldn't even absorb it. I don't know this person. I don't know how this happened. My mind could not grasp the enormity of what he had been doing and what he had been hiding. And then I just absolutely got furious. I am not a yeller, even with four kids. I very rarely lost it.

• 24:02Speaker 03

  But I remember going back into the backyard and calling him and screaming at him and saying, get home right now. I know everything.

• 24:15Andrea Gunning?

  In the moment, she thought that was true. Eileen waited for him on the front porch and when he got home, he groveled. He told her he was so sorry and insisted that he never met up with anyone in person. These were all online fantasies.

• 24:32Speaker 03

  That's what he fed off of is sending out these messages, getting them back. And I said, are you addicted to pornography? And I can still remember he had sort of a little relief in his eyes. He's like, yeah, that's it. I'm addicted to pornography.

• 24:46Andrea Gunning?

  This was the man she'd been with for 30 years, her entire adult life. If he was saying, this was just an online habit, she felt like she had to take his word for it.

• 24:58Speaker 03

  I gave him the assumption of trust because we were married and we had taken vows. I wanted so badly to believe that he was still the same person I knew and that my marriage was not a sham. I was like, okay, it was, you know, it's pornography. We can handle that. We can deal with that.

• 25:17Andrea Gunning?

  And yet.

• 25:18Speaker 03

  I knew deep down that his story didn't ring true.

• 25:24Speaker 03

  That night, we were in bed and I'm lying next to him and it's 3:00 AM and he's sleeping.

• 25:31Andrea Gunning?

  She stared at the blank white ceiling, unable to get the messages out of her head. Eventually, she couldn't lie there alone with her thoughts any longer. So she woke Paul up.

• 25:43Speaker 03

  I just started poking him on the shoulder and saying, what did you do? I know you did something. What did you do? And he's like, nothing, nothing. I swear. And he's groggy. I just kept poking him and saying, I know you did something. Tell me. And he said, nothing, nothing. And I said, okay, swear on your grandfather's head. He was close to his grandfather. I said, swear on your grandfather's head that you have never done anything during our marriage with another person physically. And he leapt out of bed and said, okay, okay, I did. You're right. See what you made me do.

• 26:20Andrea Gunning?

  Paul finally admitted it. His infidelity wasn't just online. On many occasions, he'd snuck away to meet people and engage in sexual activity. He'd lie to her about where he was going and cover his tracks afterwards. And he'd woven this all into their everyday lives. In the middle of days that might otherwise seem normal, Paul was having sexual encounters, all while keeping up the image of being a family man and respected professor.

• 26:51Speaker 03

  Anytime he went to a professional meeting or was asked to speak somewhere, he was seeking out sexual opportunities.

• 26:59Speaker 03

  On the trip to interview for the university department head position, he had gone off and met somebody at a glory hole.

• 27:07Andrea Gunning?

  He'd also met up with people on trips years back when he'd travel with his kids for sporting events.

• 27:14Speaker 03

  How do you drop your kids off at a volleyball tournament and turn around and look for a sex store? How do you tell your kids you'll be back for their next soccer game and go out and meet somebody at a glory hole?

• 27:28Andrea Gunning?

  Eileen could hardly process what her husband was saying.

• 27:32Speaker 03

  He had been masterful at keeping me in the dark for 30 years. He's putting himself up as a family man, committed to his faith. And he was doing everything in opposition to what he was putting out there. Talk about an inauthentic, double life. Everything he did was designed to deceive those around him from knowing the truth.

• 28:00Andrea Gunning?

  Her mind snapped to the immediate risks. Could he have given her an STD?

• 28:06Speaker 03

  I insisted that we go to the health department. And I said, we're getting some STD testing. And then those all came back negative. But I was like, you did all of these things without even a thought to what you were doing to me. And I was like, thank God, I didn't get any diseases.

• 28:25Andrea Gunning?

  As the shock wore off, Eileen felt her anger rise to the surface.

• 28:30Speaker 03

  I trust you to do right by me. You trust me to do right by you. And I was robbed of that.

• 28:37Andrea Gunning?

  On the other hand, she was incredibly relieved, not just that she was healthy, but that she was finally getting the truth out of him.

• 28:45Speaker 03

  At that moment, I felt like, okay, now we're getting somewhere. Now I know that you have stepped outside the bounds of our marriage.

• 28:54Andrea Gunning?

  If they were going to have any chance at repair, the first step would be Paul's complete transparency.

• 29:01Speaker 03

  You have to bring light into a dark situation. And that really was my attitude. Let's bleach all of this so you can be the person we always thought you were. And then you can overcome your dark behaviors. I said, I need to know everything so that we can begin to repair this. I don't want to find out in five months that you did something else.

• 29:26Andrea Gunning?

  Paul said he was ready to do whatever it took to save their marriage. He swore he was done cheating and that she now knew everything. He even went so far as to tell their friends and family and even their children what he'd done. To Eileen, it meant a lot. At last, all the cards were on the table. They started couples therapy. And every week, Eileen began driving Paul to a 12-step program for sex addiction.

• 29:54Speaker 03

  We did that about an hour outside of our own town and we would go up there together. And he was saying, I'm working on this. We can get through this. I'm like, okay, he's making an effort.

• 30:06Andrea Gunning?

  One day, Eileen was driving Paul home from a meeting. On the car ride, Paul suddenly looked over at her. He decided to share something.

• 30:16Speaker 03

  This was probably one of the first information pieces that he volunteered. And he said, I did have a relationship with this woman in Dublin. And they had carried on an emotional affair.

• 30:33Andrea Gunning?

  This was someone he'd met years before at a wedding. He insisted that they had never had sex. Up until this point, Paul had only confessed to transactional encounters, meetings that were purely sexual. Now, he was admitting to much more.

• 30:51Speaker 03

  That one really, absolutely, completely set me off because I'm like, now there's not only anonymous sexual encounters, but there's a woman that you had this multi-year relationship with.

• 31:05Andrea Gunning?

  She was tired of pulling tiny kernels of truth out of him, of having to ask specific questions or wait for Paul to volunteer information to get answers.

• 31:16Speaker 03

  And I said, "That's it. I need to know everything. Write it down."

• 31:21Andrea Gunning?

  Right when they pulled into their driveway, she got out of the car, walked in the front door, and sat Paul down at the kitchen table with a pen and paper.

• 31:31Speaker 03

  I said, "I'm leaving the house. I will be back, but you better write down every goddamn thing you did." So he's at the table. I went out, but I do remember coming back, pulling up. And it was probably like an hour later. I walk in the house and he's still writing.

• 31:51Andrea Gunning?

  The confession was a full 22 pages. And if you think that confession would be the end of it, you'd be wrong.

• 31:59Speaker 03

  That's still just the tip of the iceberg.

• 32:02Andrea Gunning?

  More revelations and Paul's ultimate betrayal were still to come.

• 32:07Speaker 03

  I called my husband, dropped to my knees and said, "What have you done to me?"

• 32:33Andrea Gunning?

  One thing I've learned from producing true crime these past few years is that life can change in an instant. Most people never expect to find themselves in a dangerous situation. They're heading home from work, walking the dog, meeting a friend, traveling alone, and they assume it's just another ordinary day until it isn't. That's why I want you to know about Saber Smart Pepper Spray. Yes, it's designed to help protect you, but what makes it different is the connected app. If you're ever forced to use it in an emergency, it can alert your emergency contacts and share your location. So when every second matters, the people who care about you most aren't left wondering where you are. They're not left searching. They're not left guessing. They know where to start.

• 33:17Andrea Gunning?

  We can't always predict the unexpected, but we can be prepared for it. Learn more at saberred.com/betrayal. That's saberred.com/betrayal. Eileen demanded the truth, the full truth, from her husband, Paul. He responded with a 22-page confession. Eileen sat down and read through page after page, taking in all the ways her husband had stepped outside of their marriage.

• 33:47Speaker 03

  He had gone to illicit massage parlors all over the world, all over the place. It had been strip clubs and lap dances, hotel visits and glory holes.

• 33:59Andrea Gunning?

  At most of these places, Paul swore there'd been nothing physical. He said he got off on just being there and watching others. But there were also times when he did physically cheat, and it went all the way back.

• 34:12Speaker 03

  That was one of my deep questions. When did this begin? When did you start this? He had started it right from the start. He had no intention of keeping his vows when we got married. None.

• 34:25Andrea Gunning?

  Even with all these pages of stories, hundreds of incidents of betrayal, Eileen had this sinking feeling that she was only getting a fraction of what Paul had done.

• 34:36Speaker 03

  When I'd asked him, "Well, what about on this trip?" He'd be like, "Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I did do something there."

• 34:43Andrea Gunning?

  She continued to have to ask the right questions.

• 34:46Speaker 03

  So I do have his handwritten notes, but I'm sure it's nothing compared to the reality of what he was doing for 30 years. That night, I lost it. I couldn't even incorporate any of this information into my head.

• 35:01Andrea Gunning?

  None of it squared with the man she'd been married to for three decades.

• 35:06Speaker 03

  If you met him, you would be like, "He comes across as kind of a boring dude. He looks normal, doesn't draw attention to himself, and a very steady, steadfast guy." And when this did start unraveling, he actually used the words, "I've been unmasked." He loved that people thought of him as this boring economist. And at night, on weekends, whenever he had the opportunity, he was living this wild life that nobody knew about.

• 35:38Andrea Gunning?

  As they sat there talking through all this infidelity, Eileen did feel like she was seeing more of the Paul she knew.

• 35:46Speaker 03

  He seemed remorseful. He seemed like he was sorry. He knows that I like harmony, and I think he wanted to make me feel like, "Okay, we need to get back to an equilibrium."

• 36:00Andrea Gunning?

  After reading through Paul's confession, Eileen did take steps to separate. She even filed for divorce and moved in with her mom in Boston for a few months.

• 36:10Speaker 03

  But at some point, I did decide like, "Okay, he's working on things." And so we went back to try again.

• 36:19Andrea Gunning?

  From the outside, it can be hard to understand Eileen's decision. She judges herself for going back after everything she learned.

• 36:28Speaker 03

  I think maybe my waffling, going, staying, coming here with my marriage probably shows the effects of the trauma on my decision-making.

• 36:40Andrea Gunning?

  And you have to remember, she'd been with Paul for 30 years, practically since they were kids. This marriage was all she knew. Living at her mom's, contemplating everything that would change with a divorce, she just kept thinking. She didn't want to have to start over.

• 37:00Speaker 03

  My whole life had been uprooted, and I thought, "I just want to get back to what I know, living in a Midwestern university town."

• 37:11Andrea Gunning?

  So in the fall of 2018, she moved back in with Paul. She decided to go to work again, and she found a job in the school system.

• 37:20Speaker 03

  I was like, "Okay, I'm going to go back. I'm going to get to work. I need a sense of purpose."

• 37:26Andrea Gunning?

  She went through all the steps required when you work in a school: background checks, reference checks, and last of all, a physical exam. She went to her doctor's office to get what she thought would be a quick and easy signature.

• 37:41Speaker 03

  I'm like, "You can see that I'm healthy and I'm fit. Just sign off this form." And she's like, "No, I'm going to do a real exam."

• 37:48Andrea Gunning?

  The doctor checked off all the necessary boxes, took her vitals, ran some blood work.

• 37:55Speaker 03

  And she did a pap smear, and it came back positive for HPV-16. I didn't know what that was. And I looked it up and found out that it was the most oncogenic strain of a cancer-causing sexually transmitted infection.

• 38:16Andrea Gunning?

  Human papillomavirus is a common STI. Most of the time, it doesn't cause symptoms. But certain strains of the virus, like HPV-16, can cause cancer. Eileen was shocked.

• 38:32Speaker 03

  I've never had an abnormal pap smear, never in my life.

• 38:37Andrea Gunning?

  She'd always been on top of her annual visits. And not only that, she had an STD panel the year before when she first found out about her husband's infidelity. But at the time, she wasn't tested for HPV.

• 38:52Speaker 03

  I called my husband, and he was at work, dropped to my knees and said, "What have you done to me? You need to get home right now."

• 39:05Speaker 03

  I'm literally crying on the phone, telling him that I have a sexually transmitted infection. And he still went through with a staff meeting before he came home. He does eventually come home, calms me down, says, we'll get it treated. We'll take care of it. We'll go to the best doctors.

• 39:25Andrea Gunning?

  But before long, Eileen received another diagnosis.

• 39:30Speaker 03

  I went into a gynecologist and had a little nodule removed that had been bothering me. And it turned out that was vulva cancer from the HPV.

• 39:42Andrea Gunning?

  Unfortunately, that wasn't all.

• 39:44Speaker 03

  In March, I'm going to Boston to get what they call is a cold knife conization of your cervix, which pulls out just a portion of it to see how invasive the HPV is.

• 39:57Andrea Gunning?

  The doctors didn't see much during the procedure itself. But when the tissue results came back from the lab.

• 40:04Speaker 03

  I find out I have invasive cervical cancer. So I found out I had vulva cancer and cervical cancer within about a month, six weeks of each other.

• 40:14Andrea Gunning?

  Cancer. And she wasn't just fighting one form of it. She was fighting too, from an STD her husband likely gave her. The painful irony was, it now felt like she couldn't leave Paul.

• 40:30Speaker 03

  I was getting insurance through him. I needed to stay married because I needed treatment.

• 40:36Andrea Gunning?

  Leaving him could disrupt the care she desperately needed. Eileen immediately began treatment. Her life became consumed by doctors, visits, blood workups, and painful surgeries. Meanwhile, she stayed married to Paul. He was in the Midwest, continuing his work at the university. She was in Boston, receiving treatment and living with her mother.

• 41:00Speaker 03

  I have to have a radical open hysterectomy. So I have that in May. And he comes back to help me recover. And my father had died a number of years before this, and my parents' anniversary is in June, and he was there for it. And I said, oh, let's go get a cake for my mother. She loves thinking about my father, and this is their anniversary. And while he went out to get a cake for my mother, he had left his backpack there. And I went through his backpack, and I found a sheet of paper that he had written on a list of people he needed to inform that I had cancer because he had had sexual relationships with them.

• 41:43Speaker 03

  And on this, he had kind of like a script for a phone call. My wife has HPV 16. You might want to get yourself checked.

• 41:51Andrea Gunning?

  All these years, he never told Eileen to get herself checked.

• 41:57Speaker 03

  I thought, you put my life in danger and never gave me the option to opt out.

• 42:04Andrea Gunning?

  Paul now claimed he had reformed his behavior, that he wasn't hiding anything anymore. But she soon found out, his escapades had never stopped.

• 42:14Speaker 03

  I needed to have my labia removed. And on the day he finds out that I need my labia removed, my husband invited a man into the hot tub at our house.

• 42:26Andrea Gunning?

  The two of them were naked together. Eileen only found out because the man was someone they knew, and he told her. Paul was doing what he'd always done, prioritizing his pleasure and ignoring her pain. Her life was now in jeopardy. She was undergoing major surgeries and suffering the consequences of his actions. But even after couples therapy and a 12-step program, Paul was unwilling to change. For Eileen, this was the breaking point.

• 42:58Speaker 03

  That was really the first time that I was absolutely sure that I could never have anything to do with this human being again in my life. And I was like, there's no redemption. There's nothing here that can be salvaged. And since that time, I have not heard his voice or seen his face.

• 43:17Andrea Gunning?

  They began the divorce process, and Eileen drew firm boundaries about communicating with him outside of the proceedings.

• 43:27Speaker 03

  We've had a grandchild. I'm at the baptism, he's not. My daughter graduated from UChicago. I'm there, he's not. I will not ever breathe the same air that he will breathe, not because I'm vindictive, but because after so many years of turmoil and lies and deception, I need to remove myself from his presence. He is the epitome of evil. Every time he had the choice to do right, he did wrong. And if that's not the definition of evil, I don't know what is.

• 44:03Andrea Gunning?

  The years since she and Paul separated have been difficult. Her cancer has spread. On top of the vulva and cervical cancers, Eileen was diagnosed with anal cancer in 2023.

• 44:16Speaker 03

  I undergo surgery for that every six months, and I'm put under. It's horrific. It's painful. It has lifelong consequences, but I'm actually one of the lucky ones because mine were found early.

• 44:29Andrea Gunning?

  These cancers made her reevaluate everything in her life, including her decision not to vaccinate her kids for HPV. She remembers having the choice to get her daughter vaccinated back in the early 2000s, when the Gardasil shot was first rolled out.

• 44:45Speaker 03

  My daughter, my youngest, was nine, and they weren't offering to boys at that point. And I talked to my pediatrician at that time, and he said, you know, you should get your daughter vaccinated. And I didn't because it was very new. And I thought, I'm going to hold off on that because I'm not really sure about the efficacy or the safety of this vaccine. I am not anti-vaccine. My kids have been vaccinated for everything else, but that one, I thought, needed to have a little test of time.

• 45:14Andrea Gunning?

  She hadn't gotten the vaccine herself either.

• 45:16Speaker 03

  At that point, I was over the age of 26, which was the upper limit. And I didn't think I was vulnerable to STIs. How would I, a faithful woman in a faithful marriage, be vulnerable to an STI?

• 45:29Andrea Gunning?

  Once she got these cancers, she did more research into the HPV vaccine.

• 45:34Speaker 03

  It's now been proven extremely safe, and my kids have all been vaccinated now. And actually, I was just vaccinated last summer.

• 45:42Andrea Gunning?

  Adults of any gender up to the age of 45 can easily get the shot. Above 45, you can also get the vaccine in some cases. Once Eileen realized the importance of this vaccine, she wanted to educate others.

• 45:57Speaker 03

  I felt that I needed to put purpose to my pain. And I was like, I can use my narrative to help other people. And so I just started doing little TikTok videos about HPV and its importance on my own. Here's my big shout out, my push on National Cancer Survivors' Day. Go get your pap test, get screened. I hope you never get a cancer that is almost 100% preventable.

• 46:33Andrea Gunning?

  In telling her story, she's met so many women like her.

• 46:39Speaker 03

  I have been contacted by, I kid you not, thousands of people who have shared that they also were married to men who lived completely deceptive lives, and that they hadn't thought about the health consequences that might come with that.

• 46:57Andrea Gunning?

  Her experience and the experiences of the people who've written to her have also changed her views on infidelity. She's always thought stepping out of a marriage is wrong, but now it goes beyond that.

• 47:10Speaker 03

  I do believe that infidelity is domestic violence. My body would have recovered faster if he had shot me. My body would have recovered faster if he had stabbed me. I'm living with lifelong mutilation of my body because of his behaviors and his cowardice.

• 47:33Andrea Gunning?

  To this day, Eileen continues to discover new details about Paul's secret life.

• 47:40Speaker 03

  I just found out about, in the last year, from his former boss's wife, that on the day my daughter was born, she saw him pick somebody up at a bar. There are still things that can absolutely cut me to the quick. As far as I know, he has not faced nearly the consequences I faced.

• 48:03Andrea Gunning?

  Paul is now living down south, working a new job in academia.

• 48:08Speaker 03

  He will, I am sure, upon his retirement, return to Ireland. I don't care. I've detached myself. I feel nothing but relief at not having any contact with him.

• 48:22Andrea Gunning?

  She continues to get treatment for her cancers, but she also lives a full, beautiful life despite her diseases.

• 48:30Speaker 03

  I play tennis. I work on my advocacy, and I have a beautiful granddaughter and another one on the way. I think I might soon join the workforce again. I think that I have more to contribute to the mental health field. I think I have more to contribute with advocacy. And so that feels very affirming and very hopeful.

• 48:55Andrea Gunning?

  We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why do you want to share your story?

• 49:01Speaker 03

  My first purpose is showing that you can live through this, and you can craft a life that is authentic to you. And the second purpose is, you might not think that you're vulnerable to an STI, but you might be. And I just want people to be aware so that their life story does not include what my life story now includes. We have one vaccine to protect against cancer, so let's use it. And this is why, even though I'm a fairly private person, I'm telling my story with

• 49:41Speaker 03

  all of its horrendous, egregious, soul-shattering details, so that other people don't go through this.

• 49:49Andrea Gunning?

  On the next episode of Betrayal Weekly.

• 49:57Speaker 04

  She's panicking. Amber, I'm being arrested. I need you to come get my car and my gun. I'm like, what the hell is going on?

• 50:17Andrea Gunning?

  If you'd like to share your story on betrayal, please email [email protected]. That is [email protected]. Please note that we are not a mental health organization. If you are in crisis or currently experiencing domestic violence, we encourage you to seek local help or dial 911. Please contact organizations that offer immediate support. In our show notes, we've included a list of US-based resources. You can follow us on Instagram @betrayalpod or find me at It'sAndreaGunning. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal

• 50:59Andrea Gunning?

  community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. Big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. This episode was written and produced by Caitlin Golden and Olivia Hewitt. Our story editor is Monique LaBord, also produced by Ben Fetterman.

• 51:43Andrea Gunning?

  Our associate producer is Lea Jablow. Production management by Kristen Malkury. Booking support by Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ally Perry and Jessica Krychek. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Talbekio, with additional editing by Dean Welsh. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by MyMusic. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if you could save up for that new car or vacation just by buying the stuff you're already buying?

• 52:24Andrea Gunning?

  With the OnePay banking app, you earn 3% cash back on up to $150 in monthly spending in categories you choose, so it's easy to save. For me, I love to save up for a really nice vacation and maybe put some money aside for a new car. It's always nice having something to look forward to and knowing you're actually making progress towards those bigger goals feels really good. So what are you saving for? Download the OnePay app or visit onepay.com for banking that gives you more for what matters.

• 52:54Speaker 02

  OnePay is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by Coastal Community Bank or Lead Bank, members FDIC. Cash back is earned as points. Go to onepay.com/rewards/terms for redemption options and additional details.

• 53:09Speaker 05

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• 53:39Speaker 06

  In business, there's the easy way with Staples or the hard way. Hard means... Hey, did you proof the signs before having them printed?

• 53:46Speaker 07

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• 53:47Speaker 06

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• 53:50Speaker 07

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• 53:51Speaker 06

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• 54:09Speaker 05

  I felt a jackhammering pain in my jaw.

• 54:12Speaker 03

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• 54:21Speaker 00

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• 55:00Speaker 00

  To learn more about Gernavix, ask your doctor, call 1-833-589-PAIN, or visit gernavix.com.

• 55:09Andrea Gunning?

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.