It Could Happen Here Weekly 253

All of this week's episodes of It Could Happen Here put together in one large file: The Decline and Fall of the International Workers Movement How To Print Your Own Money: The Case for Local Currencies How the ‘Delivery Protection Act’ Takes on Amazon Attacking Palestinian Health Executive Disorder: French Student Protests, Flavio Bolsonaro, ‘Third Country’ Deportations You can now listen to all Cool Zone Media shows, 100% ad-free through the Cooler Zone Media subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. So, open your Apple Podcasts app, search for “Cooler Zone Media” and subscribe today! Sources/Links: The Decline and Fall of the International Workers Movement https://www.endnotes.org.uk/issues/issue-4/endnotes-a-history-of-separation-preface https://libcom.org/article/utopia-rules-technology-stupidity-and-secret-joys-bureaucracy-david-graeber https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/maurice-brinton-the-bolsheviks-and-workers-control https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/mar/x03.htm https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/david-graeber-bullshit-jobs https://www.marxists.org/portugues/hughes/1946/mes/90.htm How To Print Your Own Money: The Case for Local Currencies BerkShares Program https://berkshares.org/ Bob Dunning's Newsletter: https://www.thewaryone.com/ https://centerforneweconomics.org/people/peter-larochelle/ https://centerforneweconomics.org https://centerforneweconomics.org/publications/local-currencies-in-the-21st-century-understanding-money-building-local-economies-renewing-community/ https://centerforneweconomics.org/publications/local-currencies-in-the-21st-century-understanding-money-building-local-economies-renewing-community/ https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/economics-econometrics-and-finance/alternativecurrency https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/economics-econometrics-and-finance/alternative-currency https://www.collaborativefinance.org/mutual-credit/local-currency/ https://sustainableandjust.org/initiatives/our-economy/alternative-economies/alternative-currencies/ https://www.theselc.org/california-community-currencies-act https://reasonstobecheerful.world/towns-invent-community-currencies/ https://www.paulglover.org/hours.html https://www.paulglover.org/hourcurrency.html https://www.paulglover.org/atwood.html https://localwiki.org/davis/Davis_Dollars https://www.opb.org/artsandlife/series/history/myrtlewood-money-north-bend-oregon-great-depression/ https://www.davisenterprise.com/users/profile/bob%20dunning/ How the ‘Delivery Protection Act’ Takes on Amazon https://act.socialists.nyc/dpa-letter https://actionnetwork.org/events/rally-to-pass-the-delivery-protection-act-3 https://www.instagram.com/nycdsa/ https://www.instagram.com/nycdsalabor/ https://www.nyc.gov/site/dca/workers/workersrights/Delivery-Workers.page https://www.nyc.gov/mayors-office/news/2026/08/mayor-mamdani-backs--delivery-protection-act--to-rein-in-amazon- https://www.nyc.gov/mayors-office/news/2026/09/mayor-mamdani-wins-record--131-5-million-from-doordash-for-deliv https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2026-06-02/amazon-trump-settlement-win-showed-just-how-tough-delivery-drivers-have-it https://hearinghearings.nyc/hearings/committee-on-consumer-and-worker-protection-requiring-the-licensing-of-last-mile-facilities/ https://teamster.org/2026/08/amazon-teamsters-and-allies-picket-city-hall-for-the-delivery-protection-act/ https://teamster.org/2025/09/amazon-teamsters-rally-after-attack-on-workers-in-queens/ https://teamster.org/2026/08/teamsters-allies-release-report-on-amazon-violations-of-new-york-warn-act/ https://teamster.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/10424UPSNATIONALMASTERFINAL.pdf https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/fast-shipping-slow-justice-traffic-worker-and-climate-hazards-in-last-mile-delivery/ https://www.staffingindustry.com/news/global-daily-news/nycs-delivery-protection-act-would-make-last-mile-delivery-workers-employees https://www.wsj.com/business/new-jersey-sues-amazon-alleging-delivery-network-illegally-suppresses-wages-f6d6faa7 https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/policy-news-views/amazon-testimony-delivery-protection-act-new-york-city https://www.forbes.com/sites/pamdanziger/2026/08/15/delivery-protection-act-pits-nyc-mayor-mamdani-and-the-teamsters-against-amazon/ https://nysfocus.com/2026/07/23/amazon-new-york-last-mile-delivery-bill Attacking Palestinian Health https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/sexual-violence-as-a-tool-of-domination-and-displacement-in-palestine/ https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/israeli-settler-violence-a-strategy-to-displace-palestinians-from-their-land/ https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/israels-restrictions-on-medical-evacuations-from-gaza-and-the-west-bank/ https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/another-step-in-the-weaponization-of-aid-israel-bans-humanitarian-agencies-in-gaza/ https://www.hudassalon.movie/ Executive Disorder: French Student Protests, Flavio Bolsonaro, ‘Third Country’ Deportations https://austinkocher.substack.com/p/julian-curo-churata-is-the-37th-person https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/government-affairs/pdfs/ORDER%20GRANTING%2034%20Motion%20for%20Preliminary%20Injunction%20Signed%20by%20Judge%20Kathleen%20Cardone.pdf https://acampada26s.net/ https://www.wfla.com/news/florida/crocodile-dies-of-lead-poisoning-first-time-in-florida-fwc/ https://x.com/UK_MTO/status/2107444098806546566?s=20 https://x.com/vvanwilgenburg/status/2107171768121311518?s=20 https://apnews.com/article/warner-bros-skydance-ellison-studio-hollywood-5f4326c083ca2fc084ff399c1b8aa035?utm_source=copy&utm_medium=share https://apnews.com/article/warner-bros-skydance-ellison-studio-hollywood-5f4326c083ca2fc084ff399c1b8aa035?utm_source=copy&utm_medium=share https://www.supremecourt.gov/orders/courtorders/092926zr2_1a7d.pdf https://www.thecityreporter.nyc/2026/10/05/third-country-deportations-ice-dhs-26-federal-plaza-west-africa/ https://www.thirdcountrydeportationwatch.org/eswatini https://www.camp-oshad.org/ https://crimethinc.com/2026/10/06/french-youth-fight-against-a-bleak-future https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2026/10/2/protests-shutter-hundreds-of-french-schools-as-violence-flares?utm_source=bluesky&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialPulse https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2026/10/2/protests-shutter-hundreds-of-french-schools-as-violence-flares?utm_source=bluesky&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialPulse https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2026/9/30/french-public-workers-strike-over-pay-as-student-protests-turn-violent https://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2026/10/06/vincent-tiberj-politiste-la-reaction-du-gouvernement-a-la-mobilisation-lyceenne-en-dit-beaucoup-sur-la-facon-dont-une-partie-des-medias-et-des-politiques-considerent-la-jeunesse_6788833_3232.html https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2026-10-05/former-us-house-speaker-dennis-hastert-dies-cbs-news-reports https://www.yahoo.com/news/us/articles/fox-news-runs-memoriam-serial-233040454.html https://apnews.com/article/dennis-hastert-dead-obituary-4a04ca4b4c0741a38f4b4a7e0f2bc78c https://www.yahoo.com/news/us/articles/fox-news-runs-memoriam-serial-233040454.html https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2026-10-05/former-us-house-speaker-dennis-hastert-dies-cbs-news-reports https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/brazil-ex-president-bolsonaro-wins-big-without-his-name-ballot-2026-10-06/ https://archive.is/6j85h https://archive.is/DqaJi https://www.cnn.com/2026/10/04/world/video/worker-at-russian-plague-lab-dies-of-unknown-infection See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:18Speaker 01

  I'm Melissa Jelton, host of the What Happened to Her podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it, and the man they suspected wore a badge.

• 1:33Speaker 03

  You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform.

• 1:39Speaker 01

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• 1:58Speaker 04

  Folks, there's important news, there's depressing news.

• 2:01Speaker 05

  And then there's the news we actually want to talk about.

• 2:04Speaker 04

  On our podcast, Bananas, we search far and wide for all the news stories that make you say, what? What? And then we tell you all about them.

• 2:12Speaker 05

  Doorbell prankster that tormented German resident apartments turns out to be a slug.

• 2:17Speaker 04

  Ding dong.

• 2:18Speaker 05

  New episodes drop Tuesdays with more than 400 episodes to catch up on.

• 2:22Speaker 04

  Listen to Bananas on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 2:28Speaker 05

  In February of 2024, celebrated illustrator and children's book author Petra Mathers and her husband Michael mailed letters to dozens of friends and family members to let them know they had died by suicide.

• 2:40Speaker 06

  Dear honeys, this is goodbye.

• 2:42Robert Evans?

  By the time you get this letter, both Petra and I will be dead. Next stop, Wonderland.

• 2:48Speaker 05

  Why did they do it? And what did it do to the people they left behind? Listen to Death of an Artist on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 3:02Robert Evans?

  Hey, everybody. Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode.

• 3:07Speaker 06

  So every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions.

• 3:28Robert Evans?

  We live now in a world defined by the near total victory of the capitalist class.

• 3:36Robert Evans?

  Their wildest fantasies are inflicted upon us all. They burn the earth we live on and poison the air we breathe to create their hideous mechanical god, for the human personification of the housing bubble orders wars and ethnic cleansings from his garish golden palace.

• 3:56Robert Evans?

  An age in which the words "the genocide" cannot unreasonably be answered with the question "which one" demands an explanation.

• 4:07Robert Evans?

  And here I have partial one. The capitalists, the bourgeoisie, the people who make their money by owning things and stealing the labor of those who work for them have been allowed to rule the world.

• 4:24Robert Evans?

  To ask how this came to be is to ask another question. How did their greatest enemy, the international workers movement, come to be so totally destroyed?

• 4:38Robert Evans?

  This is It Could Happen Here. I'm your host, Mia Wong, and that today is our task, to chart, at least in part, the decline and fall of the international workers movement. It is easy to forget that the workers movement once seemed to be the inevitable protagonists of history. As the anthropologist David Graeber remarks, "The ruling class in Chicago in the late 1800s were so sure of the coming revolution, they built their mansions on a road to the nearest military base." That revolution, obviously, never came. So what precisely went so wrong?

• 5:23Robert Evans?

  To answer this question, we followed the unraveling of two threads that together wove the fabric of the workers movement. The first thread is that of assembly. Before anything could be accomplished, it was necessary to create the image of, and then the organized reality of, the collective worker. It was necessary to assemble the movement, to gather the working class together from among its thousand nations and thousand tongues, and forge an identity and then a movement that could change the state of things.

• 6:02Robert Evans?

  This alone was a Herculean task. As the journal End Notes points out, class was perhaps the least immediate form of collective identification. Sure, class could be argued to exist on an objective sociological level, defined by one's relationship to the means of production. But it does not cause people to speak the same language. In this way, it was easier to adopt other identities, nationality, race, gender, even more localized ethnic backgrounds, than it was to believe oneself to be part of a single, united working class.

• 6:44Robert Evans?

  And so this became a great task of the workers movement, to create an identity capable of displacing, or at least joining, other forms of identification, which would then allow collective action. But once this identity existed, the movement still had to act. And here arose the second problem. What was the workers movement to do once it actually assembled? And this is no simple question. It is, in fact, one of the questions by which the movement came to be divided against itself. And once that division happened, it became easier to attack the material basis of the

• 7:27Robert Evans?

  formation of the movement itself, to destroy the conditions that made the first phase of assembling the collective worker possible. And that is how they did it. How the ruling class maintained its power even with vast swaths of the world nominally arrayed against them. They first helped the workers movement divide itself and began to exterminate each other. And then, in the world that conflict created, they and the process and unfolding of capitalist history itself began to unravel the movement at its core, to destroy its ability to form the collective identity necessary to even make those mistakes in the first place.

• 8:11Robert Evans?

  So let us begin, then, perhaps counterintuitively, with action, for it was here that the workers movement first began to unravel. This unraveling began, perhaps paradoxically, in what seemed to be the moment of their great triumph. By the end of the 1800s, movement had, in certain places, accomplished the seemingly impossible. They had, in fact, managed to assemble, in various forms, the great collective worker. It was an age of confidence, full of the certainty of inevitable, historically ordained

• 8:51Robert Evans?

  victory, of a sense that history inexorably unfolded towards the victory of the working class. Even in the wake of its defeat in the crushing of the Paris Commune, it had assembled veritable states within a state in places like Germany, with the great social democratic parties and emerging unions, built a massive network of cooperative mutual aid. These institutions seemed to be the shell of the new world being birthed in the ashes of the old. And that world seemed to hold great promise. It was a world in which workers administered the schools and daycares and welfare programs

• 9:33Robert Evans?

  themselves, in which they made decisions collectively and democratically. But the movement quickly faced a series of questions of what fundamentally it was going to be. That question, who should actually control the means of production? And moreover, what does control actually mean, would haunt the movement for its entire history.

• 10:02Robert Evans?

  This question, as we have somewhat already stated, was really two questions. The first, who should legally and socially own the means of production? Which is to say, the tools, the factories, everything used to produce things? And thus, who should be able to divide the results of that production? Should the capitalist own the factories and divide its proceeds how he sees fit? Should the state own the factory and do likewise? Should the workers own the factory directly? Should ownership itself be abolished? This is the classical form of what was known in the 1800s as the social question.

• 10:47Robert Evans?

  It is the conflict that is passed down through the generations as the great conflict between capitalism and socialism. The question of who would own the means of production? But there was always another conflict lurking just beneath the surface. How would production actually be organized? Who was making the decisions about how a paper mill is run? Are those decisions made by a boss, or realistically, a series of bosses, but we are operating here in a series of abstractions? Is it a boss who answers to the capitalist owner of the company? Is it a different boss who answers to the state? Would workers make decisions collectively?

• 11:31Robert Evans?

  And if so, how? Would they elect their own bosses? Would they vote on their decisions together? Would they begin to form consensus about what should be done and how? This question is significantly less explored, but is perhaps just as crucial as the first. It is not hard to tell why this question is ignored. Liberal democratic capitalists, fascists, social democrats, and Bolsheviks alike would come to the same conclusion. One man rule in the factory. The boss tells you what to do, and you shut up and listen. This was no mere rhetoric.

• 12:14Robert Evans?

  The social democratic parties went to war with their own bases, ripping decision-making power on the shop floor itself away from their unions, and attempting to de-skill those workers, giving that power to managers in the name of efficiency and better building a collective worker. Endnotes has an account of the German Metalworkers Union doing this precisely to their own metalworkers. But it was a broad and general process. The Bolsheviks, who had once come to power under the slogan, and I cannot emphasize this enough, “All power to the Soviets,” that is to say, “all power to the workers’

• 12:55Robert Evans?

  councils,” would, one year after their revolution, be singing a rather different tune. Here, as I have quoted before in this show, is one Vladimir Lenin, writing in Pravda a few months after the October Revolution, in a piece called “The Immediate Tasks of the Soviet Government.” “Unquestioning submission to a single will is absolutely necessary for the success of labor processes that are based on large-scale machine industry. Today, the revolution demands in the interest of socialism that the masses unquestioningly obey the single will of the leaders of the labor process.”

• 13:39Robert Evans?

  Soviet rule in the factories, then, would be the same as capitalist, fascist, or social democratic rule. It would be unquestioning submission to a single will of the leaders of the labor process. Thus, the nominally socialist state itself would come to be comprised of a nightmare combination of forwardism, dictatorship, and bureaucracy. These decisions in the shop floor had social consequences as well. Bureaucracy and dictatorship would characterize all aspects of life in such societies. The welfare state, whether implemented by the Soviets or the social democrats, would

• 14:24Robert Evans?

  be carried out not by the democratic organization of workers, but by the centralized bureaucratic state. The bureaucratic welfare state, as the anthropologist David Graeber points out in his book “The Utopia of Rules,” was perhaps first implemented by arch-conservative Otto von Bismarck as a very explicit way to buy off the working class. Bismarck himself said of his efforts, “My idea was to bribe the working class, or shall I say, to win them over, to regard the state as a social institution existing for their sake and interested in their welfare.” This bureaucracy, the state that Bismarck produced in order to crush the workers’

• 15:09Robert Evans?

  movement, increasingly became synonymous with socialism itself. Marx had infamously foretold that it would be the bourgeoisie who produced their own gravediggers. In reality, it was the workers’ movement that worked tirelessly to produce their own destruction. The war of one man rule in the factory, the clash between democracy and dictatorship on the shop floor, would become a key element of destroying the identity of the class itself. And it is to this identity that we need now turn. What is a worker? What was the workers’ movement itself? This, after the break.

• 16:02Robert Evans?

  So let us now turn to the mythical collective worker. This was the workers’ movement’s interpretation of what Marx described as the “class for itself.” For Marx, the class existed, so to speak, in two forms: in itself, which is to say that there were, objectively in the world, a class of people whose survival was dependent on selling their own labor. That was the class in itself. But to become the class for itself, that class would have to realize this. It would have to create an identity, although Marx would never have put it in this terms, as Endnotes points out.

• 16:46Robert Evans?

  It would have to create a class that was capable of recognizing that it was, in fact, a class, and then begin to act in its own interests, which, for Marx, although increasingly not for his successors, was to abolish the class system itself. But what did this identity, once it came to be forged, actually look like? From the journal Endnotes, “Supporting workers’ claims to respectability was a vision of their destiny, with five tenets. One, workers were building a new world with their own hands.

• 17:26Robert Evans?

  Two, in this new world, workers were the only social group that was expanding, whereas all other groups were contracting, including the bourgeoisie. Three, workers were not only becoming the majority of the population, they were also becoming a compact mass, the collective worker, who was being drilled in the factory to act in concert with the machines. Four, they were thus the only group capable of managing the new world in accordance with its innermost logic. Neither a hierarchy of order givers and order takers, nor the irrationality of market fluctuations, but rather, an even more finely grained division of labor.

• 18:08Robert Evans?

  Five, workers were proving this vision to be true, since the class was realizing what it was in a conquest of power, the achievement of which would make it possible to abolish class society, and thus bring man’s prehistory to a close.” These beliefs were at the core of the new identity of the collective worker. A worker being forged every day in the factories, drilled to work together by their constant labor on the assembly line. They were the builders of the new world, and they were its inheritors.

• 18:48Robert Evans?

  But this identity, and the beliefs underlying it, just as all others, had to be constructed, and it had to be assiduously maintained. If the underlying assumptions beneath it proved to be untrue or were challenged by other revelations, everything would begin to fall apart. And even during its opening phases, during the nominal triumph of the movement, that identity was already being undermined. From Endnotes again, “Socialists and communists did not see that it was only insofar as workers had a hand in determining how production took place, that they were able to identify with their work as what defined who they really were.

• 19:33Robert Evans?

  Once that right and its corresponding experience disappeared, so did the workers’ identity.” Here, we see two crucial elements of this identity threatened simultaneously. Workers in a workplace need to be able to control and make decisions in their workplace. And secondly, on an even more basic level, there had to be large-scale workplaces to begin with. The workers’ movement, although with the assistance of the capitalists, was, by the midpoint of the 20th century, well on their way towards extinguishing the ability of workers

• 20:15Robert Evans?

  to have control over their workplaces. And the capitalist class had its sights on the second element: there being a large-scale collective workplace at all. And yet, the identity of the collective worker faced other problems. There were, in fact, other identities. And these identities, in some cases, proved to be more real than that of the collective worker.

• 20:47Robert Evans?

  As endnotes and eventually even the most assiduous Marxists were forced to acknowledge, the collective worker, though it should not inherently have been, came to be “a “respectable man.” And that he was a man, despite the attempts, both nominal and real, of the workers’ movement to fight for the rights of women and the rights of people of other genders, stood until the workers’ movement’s death. This, obviously, is a problem. I need not mention, obviously, what percentage of the population is not, in fact, male.

• 21:28Robert Evans?

  But there was another crisis here, one which the workers’ movement would fail to engage in, or, rather, its attempts to engage here were insufficient to the necessary task. Now, in the old Marxist schema, there was production, the production of things. Under the capitalist context, the production of commodities to be sold on the market. But there was also reproduction, social reproduction. This was another form of labor, in which workers are produced and maintained, in extremely literal senses of the term.

• 22:10Robert Evans?

  We are speaking here of having and raising children, of making food and washing clothes, of cleaning and doing dishes, of the forms of labor that create and sustain life. And we are speaking of forms of labor that the male collective worker broadly, to be somewhat crude, did not give a shit about. It was able to not give a shit about it, because it could assume that that labor would be done by someone else, by classes and genders of people who were excluded from the collective worker, or incorporated into it only selectively.

• 22:52Robert Evans?

  For there are, to take the name of a movement, no wages for housework. This form of production, this form of labor, this social reproduction that makes life and the world possible, that is as much a core of the production and reproduction of capital as the production of commodities itself, was never remunerated as such. This was as true in socialist period China, where women were not given work points for the domestic labor they did at home, as it was in the capitalist United States, where women were likewise not paid for the domestic labor that they did at home.

• 23:34Robert Evans?

  These tasks were primarily done, of course, by women. And this was a sphere into which the capitalists would make a series of attacks by relying on the inattention and ability to divide the class that were twin characteristics of the sphere of domestic reproduction. When neoliberalism came, it came with Reagan-era anti-feminism and homophobia, it came with the one-child policy in China, it came, in other words, with massive expansions of the control of the bourgeoisie into the process of domestic reproduction. And there were other problems, of course.

• 24:18Robert Evans?

  The process of domestic reproduction does not produce, for capital, an unmarked worker. What do I mean by unmarked? To take a nonspecific example, I, unfortunately, do not simply get to be a worker. I am an Asian trans woman, with all of the associated violences that those identities imply in a world such as this. And this, too, was a work of production, just as the workers’ movement had to assiduously maintain its identity as the worker.

• 24:56Robert Evans?

  So other sectors assiduously worked to produce women through constant disciplining violence. The totality of the social processes at play were also busy producing race. Even being allowed to access to proletariat itself, being able to reach the status of an exploited wage laborer, and not a debt pion, a sharecropper, or a slave, or someone simply exterminated altogether, this was the process of the production of race. It too complicated the simple collective worker, for even joining the exploited working

• 25:40Robert Evans?

  class itself became a privilege. The suffering of the mere white proletarian was freedom to someone who had been enslaved. And in these distinctions, in these gradations of violence, in the structural and systemic racism of societies across the world, here, the constituent elements of the collective worker had other interests. White workers in the US, instead of attempting to abolish their class, could reap material rewards by working with their employers to maintain segregation.

• 26:21Robert Evans?

  So too could workers reap the rewards of nationalism. For there were, at least to some extent, real benefits to be found in imperialism and settler colonialism. Indeed, many working-class theorists in the 1800s in the US, a time in which the contradictions between class and settler identity were perhaps at their most stark, believed that the class problems of Europe could be solved in America by simply continuing to steal land from indigenous people and giving it to workers. This violence would be replicated by the socialist states of various stripes, from

• 27:03Robert Evans?

  the Indonesian conquest of West Papua under Sukarno, to the settler colonial occupations of Tibet and Xinjiang, to, and I did once attempt to write a list of all of these and simply could not list all of them, the participation of socialist parties and their unions in, effectively, every act of colonialism that Europe has ever done. There were good factory jobs in building the bombs that fell over Vietnam, replete with union benefits and healthcare. Just as the social democratic parties of the 1910s had succumbed to nationalism, backed

• 27:42Robert Evans?

  their respective countries in slaughtering each other in World War I, so too would workers back their nations in a path of untrembled butchery, leading right to Bosnia. The workers of the world were slaughtering each other. And yet another question would come to haunt the movement. Would these workers even remain workers? It began, as we have discussed ad nauseam, to distribute production across massive supply

• 28:26Robert Evans?

  lines, using massive containerized ships to produce parts in one country and ship those parts to another, pitting workers of every country against each other in a fight for a rapidly decreasing number of jobs. The great urban factories that had been at the core of the formation of the workers’ movement’s identity and ability to reproduce itself were likewise replaced by smaller, decentralized rural factories, built further from each other, to make it more and more difficult for any kind of collective identity to emerge.

• 29:05Robert Evans?

  Worse still, the shift to massive supply chains was accompanied by the transformation of large parts of the working class into contractors or small business owners lodged in various positions up and down the supply chain. The supply chain would still be controlled by massive corporations, but crucially, it would no longer own the various stages. Instead, portions of what were once workers would become the nominal owners of tiny shops that made one part of a process that would eventually become a larger product.

• 29:47Robert Evans?

  Every step meticulously and rigorously controlled by a corporation, but not owned by them. In this way, Nike, as Anna Singh points out in her famous work, “Supply Chains and the Human Condition,” does not really actually produce shoes, it simply buys them by setting up a massive production process across a sprawling supply chain, each of which is run by nominally independent companies that are forced to act as contractors. This is offered up as freedom, as encouragement of workers to abandon their identity as a collective worker and become business owners themselves.

• 30:31Robert Evans?

  This shift would have a massive impact on both, the ability of the worker to form a collective identity, and also on the possibility of struggle itself. For this shift would displace the side of struggle from shop floors owned directly by corporations themselves, to shop floors owned by petty producers who would once simply have been workers, thus neatly dividing the working class against itself, while denying these new nominal small business owners the capital necessary to even accede to the demands of their workers. The old class basis of social democracy and the core of the old workers’ movement was thus shattered in a single stroke.

• 31:16Robert Evans?

  The combination of the freedom of movement of capital and the unfreedom of movement of labor, as we have seen so horrifically in the deportation, ethnic cleansing sweeping the United States, alongside the class-shattering effects of supply chain management and the transformation of the working class into managers themselves fundamentally shifted the terrain of global class struggle. They would in time become the emergence of the service economy, they would herald the collapse of the industrial proletariat, the mass expulsion of workers from the labor process altogether. In a word, the conditions of modernity.

• 32:02Robert Evans?

  But the effect was the same. Where once, at least some workers were able to claim their part of the identity of the collective worker. Now, we face the near-total atomization of most of the world's population. And yet, for all of the bourgeoisie's power, for all that it appeared that their victory was final, that history was over, and that liberal democratic capitalism had triumphed over the world forever, on the very day that NAFTA, the crowning achievement of the bourgeoisie in North America, came into effect, something else happened.

• 32:45Robert Evans?

  For to misquote a Langston Hughes poem in the 1990s, it was not Lenin who walked across the world, it was Zapata. And so, to borrow the words of the great poet, Zapata walked around the world, black, brown, and white received him. Language is no barrier. The strangest tongues believe him. Zapata walks around the world. The sun sets like a scar between the darkness and the dawn. There rises a red star. This is It Could Happen Here.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. I'm Melissa Jelton, and in my new podcast, What Happened to Her?, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled a suicide.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety. Stories of survival.

• 34:19Speaker 03

  The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck, because by all rights, I should be dead.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  Cases that everyone else called closed.

• 34:28Speaker 00

  They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. No child should ever experience that. And we were babies.

• 34:44Speaker 03

  She did all of these brave things and came out and spoke about it, and he got a year. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Listen to What Happened to Her? on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 35:04Robert Evans?

  You broke me. You do not deserve happiness.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  I'm Andrea Gunning. On this season of Betrayal, we meet Carl Bryan. Carl thought he was living a normal, drama-free life, until the messages started.

• 35:18Robert Evans?

  You will have hell to pay.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  For nine months, someone infiltrated every aspect of Carl's life, threatening to ruin him.

• 35:28Speaker 05

  Cyber stalking, swatting, extortion, impersonation.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  And then, the text threats escalated.

• 35:36Robert Evans?

  Someone's not gonna make it out of this alive.

• 35:39Speaker 05

  Yes, Department! It's playing out in real life, not just on the phone.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Every piece of evidence pointed to one man. But every piece of evidence was a lie. He was not going to stop unless we stopped him. Listen to Betrayal, Season Six, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 36:04Speaker 04

  This is Daryl Bell.

• 36:05Speaker 06

  And I'm Kadim Hardison.

• 36:06Speaker 04

  And together, we're the voices behind the newest podcast on the Black Effect Podcast Network, A Different Worldview with Daryl and Kadim. Each Thursday, we're rewatching an episode of the show that changed our lives, and so many others, A Different World.

• 36:21Speaker 06

  We're sharing never-before-heard stories from behind the scenes, and sitting down with other stars from the show to hear their unique perspectives.

• 36:28Speaker 04

  We're also discussing the arts world and pop culture headlines with plenty of laughs along the way.

• 36:34Speaker 06

  We did a movie called School Days, and me being... A trained actor. You got, you get the first shot, so I took the trained actor. Yeah. And you being the dude that said, "Hey, Spike, on the street, you saw him coming out of the bathroom or something?" And said, "Hey, Spike, coming out in the bathroom." I might have made that up. So don't miss the start of something great.

• 36:54Speaker 04

  Listen to A Different Worldview with Daryl and Kadim every Thursday from the Black Effect Podcast Network, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 37:06Speaker 05

  Vampires, minotaurs, 12-foot skeletons, and apartment doors? Believe it or not, we're talking about romance. It's a monster romance extravaganza on Radio 831, a romance podcast. So join me, Sajana Baskar, and my co-host Tyler McCall, as we dive into the strange, horny, and wonderfully thoughtful world of falling for something not quite human. I give Tyler a crash course in monster romance, and the villain edit author, Rosie Dannen, joins to talk vampires, blood play, and finding tenderness in a monstrous love interest. Then, sentient object romance expert, Racy Delgado, takes us even deeper into the genre. Finally, I assign Tyler some homework, to read C. M. Niscosta's Morning Glory: Milking Farm.

• 37:48Speaker 05

  And it's a doozy, but spoiler alert, Tyler emerges ready for more monster tales, because sometimes, non-human romances can tell us the most about our desire, our fantasies, and what we actually want. Listen to Radio 831, a romance podcast, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 38:11Speaker 06

  At the moment, there's a great deal of discussion about alternative currencies, specifically cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin and Ethereum. But there is another form of alternative currency, one that is largely overlooked. I'm talking about local currencies, money that's created and distributed by a local community. Back in the 19th century, banks in America often printed their own currency, backed by gold and silver, and the U.S. Treasury was not involved. The practice started back in pre-revolutionary times, when the British did not mint enough silver and copper coins for the colonies. To keep the local economies going, banks printed up paper bills to be used for goods and services, and to pay back debts.

• 38:55Speaker 06

  After the American Revolution, in the 1800s, commercial banks in the U.S. began to issue their own local money in exchange for gold deposits. The dollar bills printed by the banks did not travel far, since they could only be redeemed at those same local banks. Trouble arose during the Civil War, when the federal government began to print its own dollar bills. Those initial dollars, called greenbacks, became a common target for counterfeiters. And thus, in the years just after the Civil War, it's estimated that 1/3 of paper money circulating in the U.S. was counterfeit. The chaos created by so much phony money in the U.S. led to the creation of the Secret Service.

• 39:38Speaker 06

  Before they protected the president, Secret Service agents' first order of business was protecting the American money supply. Then came the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. That legislation changed the whole monetary picture when it created centralized banking in the United States. That same act also made the U.S. Treasury the sole legal provider of dollar bills. With its passage, local banks stopped printing their own money. There were no more local currencies. The question we consider today is, what if we went back to that old model of local currencies? It's totally possible, and it's not illegal, as long as the money you print isn't dollar bills.

• 40:21Speaker 06

  Most importantly, this movement is already happening. Right now, there are communities all across the country that print their own money, and this keeps more of their money in the hands of the citizens of that community. So, would you like to learn how to print your own money? Not only is it legal to make your own money, it's surprisingly easy, and there are multiple ways to do it. For instance, in 1989, in Great Barrington, Massachusetts, the owner of a restaurant called The Deli needed capital to finance a relocation, and so he issued deli dollars. For customers who traded $8 of American cash, they received $10 deli dollars, which could be used at the new location to buy $10 U.S. dollars worth of deli food.

• 41:06Speaker 06

  The deli dollars were essentially a gift certificate. Over in Ithaca, New York, a man named Paul Glover offered local folks paper notes called "hours." They were worth the average hourly wage in their small town, which, at the time, was $10. Folks in Ithaca could trade those paper notes for goods and services in the community. In both cases, paper notes were printed up, and the new money had a specific value in terms of the U.S. dollar. You can do the same thing. Design some paper notes, print them up. Once you make the physical cash, you invite people to exchange dollar bills for your new notes. And then, folks can trade your new money for goods, services, debts, all the same things

• 41:50Speaker 06

  that you can do with dollar bills. Now, it does work better if you can get a local bank to help out with the exchange of U.S. cash for your new money. If the bank is willing to act as the exchange point for the real U.S. Treasury-backed currency for your new money, it helps your local currency to earn trust in the community and for you to handle the accounting. That's how easy it is to start printing your own money. It feels like this should be illegal, but again, it's totally legal to make your own dollar bills, as long as what you print up isn't mistaken for U.S. dollars. That's what keeps your new money from being considered counterfeit cash. As an investigative journalist and podcast host, I've long been curious about the idea

• 42:34Speaker 06

  of making your own money. So, doing what I do best, I tracked down an expert, a person whose job it is to administer a local currency, and asked him everything you'd want to know about printing your own money, the benefits, the challenges, the practical legalities, and I asked about the financial freedom that comes from creating a local currency. We'll get into all of that in this episode. I'm Zaren Burnett from the podcast Ridiculous Crime, and very special episodes. And I'm the guest host for today's episode of It Could Happen Here: How to Print Your Own Money: The Case for Local Currencies.

• 43:14Speaker 06

  The idea of local currencies has always intrigued me. You see, back in 2010, in my hometown of Davis, California, a guy named Nick Berry created what were called Davis Dollars. They were a local currency meant to benefit the economy of the small college town. Berry's goal was to create a way for the community to have greater control over how money flowed in and out of the town's economy. Davis Dollars promised to keep more money in the hands of its citizens and small business owners. The idea was well-intended, but the adoption of the alternative paper currency was not what you would call robust. Yeah, it was, you know, and I won't say a big deal. I mean, it's in the local paper a couple of times. So it got good play.

• 43:59Speaker 06

  I don't know if like the TV stations in Sacramento did a piece on it. They probably did do a piece or two. If somebody got a hold of them, they probably didn't find it on their own. But yeah, the rollout was, you know, I think most people knew about it. That's Bob Dunning. You could call him the voice of Davis. For 54 years, he was a columnist for the Davis Enterprise newspaper. As such, he reported on what all was newsworthy in our sleepy college town. And now, keeping with the times, Dunning has his own newsletter in which he continues to comment on what he's lovingly dubbed "The People's Republic of Davis." As the respected chronicler of our town, naturally, Dunning has some thoughts about Davis Dollars.

• 44:42Speaker 06

  Although he can't remember ever writing about the alternative currency. Not unless they paid me. You know, I don't think I did. I may have made passing reference, like, "Well, I better pull out my Davis Dollars and go to buy a little, buy a Slurpee, buy a snow cone at the Little League game or something." So only in passing reference because I like the alliteration. When asked if he remembers ever spending one or if he ever saw an actual Davis Dollar, Dunning recalled, "Ah, man, maybe a Christmas stocking. I don't think I actually saw one."

• 45:26Speaker 06

  While Davis Dollars may have failed to capture the imagination of the townsfolk and students of Davis, this had less to do with the promise of a local currency and more to do with the timing. Davis Dollars was launched in 2010. At that same time, the world was still mired in the economic downturn of the financial meltdown of 2008 and 2009, which meant folks weren't looking for novel, new ways to spend money. They were looking for ways to save the money they still had. Basically, it was a rough time to launch a new form of money. Absolutely. It's the worst time to do anything. We hear it with COVID now. Everything changed with COVID, and it did. Despite its poor timing, Dunning does agree that as an alternative currency, Davis Dollars--

• 46:11Speaker 06

  It sounds like a good idea, sounds like a clever idea. But so many small businesses are on such a margin. So I think that hurt it a little bit. And so carrying a Davis Dollar that you could only spend in downtown Davis, you couldn't go anyplace else with it. And even some merchants were reluctant to be part of the program. I think it was ultimately doomed. The failure of Davis Dollars to win over the people is less of a critique of the potential of local currencies and instead, a real-world example of the challenges a community faces when they decide to make their own money.

• 46:54Speaker 06

  If you plan to launch an alternative currency, timing and practicality are key. It needs to serve a real need. It can't just be theoretically attractive. To investigate a far more successful, real-world example of a local currency, we spoke with Peter LaRochelle. So I work at the Schumacher Center. We're a nonprofit think and do tank based out of Egremont, Massachusetts. So my primary responsibility with the Schumacher Center is to administer our local currency program. To walk us through the hows and whys of printing your own money, Peter LaRochelle is here to discuss the vast potential and the practical realities of making your own money.

• 47:38Speaker 06

  Who better to explain the value of printing your own money than someone whose job it is to do just that? The local currency he administers is called-- Berkshares, which is an on-the-ground example of a local currency right here in the Berkshire region that the Schumacher Center helped found. For the tourist-driven economy of the Berkshires region of western Massachusetts, a local currency was a savvy way to keep more of their economic power in the area rather than seeing money flow in and then quickly flow right back out. The Berkshares program was started back in 2006. And 20 years later, it's still going strong. The credit for that belongs to the Schumacher Center for a New Economics, which was founded by E.F. Schumacher back in 1980.

• 48:21Speaker 06

  The "Think and Do Tank," as Peter LaRochelle called it, advocates for a new form of economics. It's right there in the name. Its founder, E.F. Schumacher, believed in something he called, quote, "an economy of permanence." According to the Schumacher Center's website, quote, "In today's global economy, national currencies have had the effect of centralizing ownership of wealth and of widening the gap between rich and poor, all the while undermining local communities, devastating indigenous peoples, and polluting the environment." Standing in opposition to this global trend is the Schumacher Center. And a key tool to bring more economic power and independence to communities is a local currency. As their website argues, quote,

• 49:05Speaker 06

  "Decentralized regional currencies are an important counterforce working to redistribute wealth more broadly while supporting unique regional identities, cultures, and communities." Back to Peter LaRochelle. I think people want to feel like they have a say in the systems that dictate their lives. All of the Schumacher Center's projects that they've helped found and they support are democratic, people-based projects that are run by nonprofits, that are members of the community that run these projects, whether it's local currencies or community land trusts or any other project. The idea really is that people should be able to have a say in the communities they live in. I know this may sound like some weird libertarian crypto nonsense,

• 49:50Speaker 06

  but as we'll explain, it is a totally different thing. And to that point, Peter LaRochelle would like to assure you that the Schumacher Center is very much a capitalist idea. I think the way Berkshares is structured should reflect capitalism at its best. We absolutely believe in for-profit enterprise, private ownership of businesses. And we believe that when it's done right, that's what makes a community thrive.

• 50:26Speaker 06

  What the Berkshares program seeks to disrupt is the concentration of wealth. The trouble with centralized wealth is that it's typically controlled by people with no connection to a local community. That's why the Berkshares program acts as a bulwark against the conglomeration of businesses that-- Only speak to the values of shareholders who want to see more and more and more profits over time. A local currency is a tool created to minimize the outsized power of billionaires, private equity, and stockholder-focused banking interests. Because quite simply put, their monetary interests are often what-- Sucks the life out of communities. In stark contrast to that dynamic, a local currency becomes a means for a community to tend to their own economic garden, so to speak.

• 51:11Speaker 06

  And that's why, as an alternative currency, it's meant to work in conjunction with the US Treasury, not as a means to replace it. Or, as Peter LaRochelle puts it-- Businesses are taking Berkshares the same way they would regular US Dollars, and they do it to make a profit. So I don't think there's anything so dissimilar about Berkshares compared to regular capitalist systems other than that we're prioritizing the little guys and individual communities. And really, a thriving capitalist business scene on your main streets and business corridors that are supported by a ton of different people and small businesses that fill in all the niche needs in their communities.

• 51:54Speaker 06

  The Schumacher Center defines a local currency as-- An umbrella term for any sort of currency that is place-based and intended to build a more sustainable or resilient local economy. So those are two key aspects to it. And I can think of examples that make this distinction clear. For example, a currency might be place-based, but if it's not intended to build a sustainable local economy, we don't call it a local currency. Ultimately, this is what separates a local currency from, say, a cryptocurrency, which technically is another form of alternative currency. As Peter LaRochelle explains, this distinction was made clear during--

• 52:37Speaker 06

  The crypto craze of the early 2020s. One such cryptocurrency was called Miami Coin. It was place-based in that when people mined the Miami Coin, some percentage of the value that was created went to a wallet owned by the city of Miami. So in a way, it produced wealth for the city of Miami. It's place-based. It's in the name, Miami Coin. But it's certainly not about creating a sustainable or resilient local economy. It was speculative. It didn't really even represent a real currency in that it couldn't be used to purchase goods or services within Miami or within any other region. It was purely speculative. Another form of alternative currency, one that is quite different from crypto,

• 53:22Speaker 06

  is the far older concept of scrip or company dollars. For example, in coal country, there used to be company towns. And for their local money, they had something called scrip. It was a form of currency that coal workers and their families could use to buy things from the company store. Which, as Peter LaRochelle points out, that's-- A place-based currency, but it is not about building a sustainable community or community economy. We would never refer to that kind of thing as a local currency. And certainly, we would never try to model a system after that. Conversely, what the Berkshares program is designed to do is to give their community more control of their local economics. You see, a Berkshare is seen as a form of power, handing the power of a dollar back to the people

• 54:06Speaker 06

  rather than handing that power over to the banks. Well, what comes to mind when I think of money having power is the ability for money to create more money, where you take your money and you store it-- In some investment account, off in the middle of nowhere, and you're, once you generate enough money, you can just keep generating more and more and more. Berkshares does not work like that. Berkshares is power. It's power on an individual level to shape your community. So money, the power in money is not about who you can influence or how much wealth you can generate for your own personal gain. The power behind Berkshares is more about where you're spending your money and what kind of money you're spending.

• 54:50Speaker 06

  How does that impact the people around you? How does that impact your community? And that's, in a way, something that feels lost in traditional currency. People don't think twice about where it goes, where it came from, or who it's supporting. Whereas with Berkshares, their local currency makes that same power of money manifest and highly visible for the local community. They know where their money is going and what good it's doing for their community. Berkshares are place-based, and they bring it back to those values of supporting a local economy and local resources for local needs. So I think that it flips power on its head by making people think not what money can do for yourself

• 55:33Speaker 06

  and what kind of wealth you can generate for yourself and where you can store your money to be able to influence the right people, but rather it's about empowering you and your fellow community members to shape the kind of community you want to see. Since money is a form of power, a local currency is a way to take some of your power back. While local currencies may come off like some brand-new idea like crypto, and while its advocates may pitch it as the sort of economic idea that Bernie bros could get behind and that aging hippies could equally love, a local currency is primarily a means for community members of all ages and walks of life to more meaningfully engage in the economic life in their cities, towns, and hamlets.

• 56:18Speaker 06

  And as the local currencies of the 18th and 19th centuries prove, this idea is not new. Also, it's not unique to the United States. During the Great Depression over in Austria, a small town called Virgil was having a tough time. Unemployment was rampant, debts were skyrocketing, and infrastructure was falling apart. The town desperately needed money to combat all three issues, so they introduced a local currency called labor certificates. That hail mary economic act saved the town. Unemployment fell by 25% at the same time that it was rising by 19% across the rest of Austria. The secret to their success

• 57:00Speaker 06

  was that this new form of money stayed in their town as it circulated. Thus, their introduction of this local currency blunted the devastating impacts of their Great Depression. This unexpected success became known as the Miracle of Virgil. Unfortunately, when the town's mayor shared stories of their success at a meeting of 170 other mayors, the Central Bank of Austria caught wind of it and outlawed their local currency. Guess they saw this local currency as too much of a threat for their business model of debt and centralized banking. More recently, in 1972, a man named Ralph Borsatti created a local alternative currency experiment

• 57:43Speaker 06

  in Exeter, New Hampshire, called the Constant. It was called the Constant because it was a citizen-issue currency backed by an index of world commodities to give the local currency real purchasing power and to keep that purchasing power constant as the years went on. Unfortunately, due to the ill health of Ralph Borsatti, his experiment with local currencies had to be discontinued. However, the spirit of this idea remained vital, particularly in the New England area, where the Berkshares program would come to be decades later. Meanwhile, overseas, particularly in Europe, the idea of a local currency remained quite popular. In 2015, it was estimated that there were nearly 400 local currencies circulating in Spain.

• 58:28Speaker 06

  And in the UK, there's a local currency called the Brixton Pound. Here on the west coast of the United States, where I live, we've seen a number of local currencies over the years. There's the aforementioned Davis Dollars from my hometown. And down in the area of California, near Yosemite National Park, there's a local currency called the North Fork Share, which is similar to the Berkshire Notes. Up in Oregon, back during the Great Depression, the town of North Bend saved their local economy by minting wood-based coins called Myrtlewood Money. Around that same time, in the town of Hepner, Oregon, locals created their own local currency printed on sheepskin. But once the Great Depression passed, those local currencies were no longer necessary. At the present moment,

• 59:14Speaker 06

  our economy may not be as bad as the Great Depression, but the power of a local currency to protect the local community remains the same. As Peter La Rochelle points out... The values that are guiding systems like Berkshares honestly often feel amplified in the modern age, where people are starting to recognize the disconnect that they feel through modern systems, whether that's digitally or a more globalized economy, when their communities don't have identity. I mean, there's almost a romanticization of the past right now. I'm seeing a lot in the, in the urbanist field. It's very trendy right now. But it's because people are looking back at a time where they felt like communities

• 59:56Speaker 06

  had a real identity and individuality and strength of their own. And people want to see a future like that. And I don't think there are many tools quite as unique as a local currency to inspire people and create that hope and make people feel like the direction of their community is in their hands. In order for a local community to grab hold of the wheel and steer their community through the rough economic seas ahead, La Rochelle believes that a local currency is one of the greatest tools available. That's the beauty of a local currency, is that we're not talking about big systems change on the individual level. We're just talking about where is your money going? Create a system, small nonprofit can oversee it.

• 1:00:41Speaker 06

  That takes some work. But on the individual level, you're creating change in your community just with where you spend your dollar and what kind of dollar you're using, which is something that I think a lot of people can latch on to. You know, like I said, I think I'm seeing a lot of movement within this country for people to, to do things more on a community level, on a face-to-face basis, and on a human scale, really. And that's where local currencies shine. It's human scale. It's about a region. It's not about growth for the sake of growth. As a thriving example of a local currency, the Berkshares program has enjoyed 20 years of success. The simple reason for its success is that it works well as a form of money. Let's check the numbers.

• 1:01:22Speaker 06

  There are currently 111,000 Berkshares in circulation. There are more than 300 local businesses that accept Berkshares as a form of payment. Here's Peter La Rochelle to explain how it all works on the local level. So Berkshares are exchanged on par with US dollars. So it's $1 for one Berkshire. There's no secret reason to use Berkshares beyond supporting your local economy. So let's say you want to spend a Berkshire. How exactly does that work? The way Berkshares work is anyone in the community can walk into one of our exchange points, which happen to be community banks. People walk into the bank, go up to the teller, and just do a transaction like they would any other time they walk into a bank.

• 1:02:07Speaker 06

  They ask the teller to exchange US Dollars for Berkshares. They do it pretty seamlessly. And once they have Berkshares, they can spend them at any business that's willing to take them. When you use a Berkshire to buy something or to pay for a service, it's designed to be a painless exchange. There's no weird or wonky extra math to do since a Berkshire has... The same value as US Dollars. So an item that costs $10 would cost 10 Berkshares. Consumers can spend with that business in Berkshares, get their change in Berkshares or US Dollars. Note that we do not have coins, because it's against the law, but you are allowed to have paper notes. So if people need change in coins, they just get regular US coinage. And then when the business receives that Berkshire, they have two options.

• 1:02:52Speaker 06

  They can bring it back to the bank, or they can go and spend it elsewhere in the community at other businesses that are willing to accept Berkshares. Now, what happens when that business wants to exchange a Berkshire and convert it back into US Dollars? Is that equally painless? So business could take it back to the bank, and then they would have freedom with their US Dollars to spend that money wherever they want. So that's probably the easiest decision. There is a one-time transaction fee to convert a Berkshire back into US Dollars, but that cost is exceedingly low. We do have a 1.5% reverse exchange fee. So when you're obtaining Berkshares, there's no fee. But if you're trading Berkshares back for cash, there is that 1.5% exchange fee.

• 1:03:37Speaker 06

  So that's lower than what businesses are used to, whether that's with credit cards or with mobile payment platforms like Venmo when they cash out. So it's not this massive barrier to participating in Berkshares, but it's a number that's high enough to make them think, maybe I would just be better spending them in the community rather than bringing it to the bank. In other words, that 1.5% fee to convert a Berkshire back into a dollar is meant to encourage a community member or a business to continue circulating the Berkshire in the local economy for other goods or services. And the reason that we support that is because we know when they're not bringing the Berkshares back to the bank, that money has to stay in the community, and it stays within that tight network of local businesses

• 1:04:21Speaker 06

  that decide to take Berkshares. And it also encourages new businesses to sign on, because maybe when business gets some, some good that they're selling, they do get locally, and they say, I have all these Berkshares. Would you be willing to accept them? And then you get more people on board that way. So that's as simple as it gets. We call that recirculation of Berkshires the local multiplier effect. This local multiplier effect is another major reason for the success of Berkshires. A local currency holds the power to generate two to four times more local economic impact than, say, traditional money that gets spent at some big box store.

• 1:05:02Speaker 06

  Study after study will show that spending your money at independent, small, locally based businesses will generate considerably higher proportion of downstream economic effects within that local economy. By keeping their dollars in their local economy, thanks to their local currency, the people of the Berkshires region strengthen their local businesses and protect the area from economic troubles that are wrecking shop in the larger economy. That's really the selling point for Berkshires. So on your end, you bought a $5 item for $5 or five Berkshires, but your purchase has a little bit more power within your community.

• 1:05:42Speaker 06

  So you feel more empowered as a consumer to create local economic development. This is also the key distinction for a Berkshare versus, say, Bitcoin or other crypto coins. A local currency is place-based and it's meant to build a sustainable local economy. So a cryptocurrency could be either one of those things, but in general cryptocurrencies are speculative. Bitcoin, Dogecoin, Miami Coin, which we mentioned earlier, those are speculative. The purpose of cryptocurrencies is not to invest in your community, even in large geographic areas. It's about personal financial gain. And often they're not even treated as currencies. They're not used to exchange goods.

• 1:06:25Speaker 06

  They're used to hold and then sell when more people buy them and the price goes up. Which raises an interesting question. Could a local currency like Berkshires issue its own cryptocurrency? One that is specifically designed for the same local community usage? We did have a digital currency in a beta form in mid to late 2022. There were a lot of benefits to the app. We were bringing in a lot of new businesses that didn't really want to deal with the paper currency, but were happy to deal with a more frictionless platform. We saw a lot of people get excited over the fact that they could use Berkshires without always having to walk into a bank. It was as easy as taking out their phone and scanning a QR code.

• 1:07:07Speaker 06

  But there were many things that needed to be fixed within the app and sort of systemic things that made it not sustainable at that time, including the cost of maintaining the app. So we do want to restart a mobile payment platform with Berkshires and other digital ways to use them, but we only want to do it if we're doing it exactly right. We don't want to roll out a product that is not meeting the needs in the community. This leads to another key question. These days, who is still using paper money for their purchases? Well, we already know the answer to that. Older generations. So does that limit the impact of Berkshires if younger people are less likely to use cash as a form of money?

• 1:07:49Speaker 06

  Speaking to generational gaps in general, we find that Berkshires are used more often in older populations, people who are more familiar with the nature of walking into a bank or even just using physical currency and keeping that on their person at all times. That is admittedly getting a bit antiquated, especially ever since early 2020s where it seems like every sort of digital platform, whether it's payment or even doing business digitally by purchasing things online, we find that younger people are using those platforms more often and are, many of them have never even walked into a bank in their whole lives. So that's where we start to see a generational gap where there's a lot of friction for a

• 1:08:31Speaker 06

  young person to use Berkshires because doing those kinds of things are not part of their daily life. They're not used to it.

• 1:08:49Speaker 06

  While young folks aren't as likely to step into a bank to exchange dollars for Berkshires, they do tend to notice them when someone else spends them in a local business. The reason is immediate. It's the artwork that colors a Berkshare note. On each denomination of Berkshires, there's a different local hero who's celebrated, both for their value to the community and to our American culture writ large. For instance, on the $5 Berkshare note, you find a portrait of- Norman Rockwell, a legendary artist whose artwork itself, I think, fits a lot of the themes of Berkshires. It's inclusive of everyone. There's no sector of American life that hasn't been touched by Norman Rockwell's artwork

• 1:09:32Speaker 06

  in some form or no kind of person who hasn't been represented in some form. So Norman Rockwell is natural for including on the Berkshires in that sense, but also Norman Rockwell has a long history in the Berkshires. Hundreds and hundreds of his paintings were made at his studio in Stockbridge, Massachusetts, which is in Berkshire County, just north of Great Barrington. The Norman Rockwell Museum is in Stockbridge and his legacy plays a really foundational role in Berkshire history. And people often drive down through Stockbridge or even other Berkshire towns and say, wow, this town looks like it's straight out of a Norman Rockwell painting. And at least in the town of Stockbridge, that's because it is directly out of a Norman Rockwell painting.

• 1:10:15Speaker 06

  So we honor that history by featuring him on the $5 Berkshare and of course also honor the themes of his artwork as well, which often centered on small town life and the beauty of personal relationships at the local level. For the $20 Berkshare note, the Schumacher Center opted to celebrate another famous son of New England, who's also another world famous American. We feature Herman Melville, author of Moby Dick. Herman Melville did not grow up in Berkshire County, but he eventually moved here because he found inspiration in the natural landscape of the Berkshires.

• 1:10:56Speaker 06

  He settled down at Arrowhead or what is now Arrowhead in Pittsfield, which at this point is a museum, but at Arrowhead, that was his workplace. And in fact, one of my favorite hiking spots in Berkshire County at Monument Mountain in Great Barrington, Herman Melville frequented Monument Mountain to gain inspiration for his writings. And I think that's really cool that Herman Melville found that same inspiration in the Berkshire landscape that so many people who come here every day feel. So we honor his history in the Berkshires on the $20 Berkshare. As for the $10 Berkshare note, it celebrates a hero of the local agriculture movement. If you've ever taken part in community-supported agriculture, if you've ever signed up to receive

• 1:11:41Speaker 06

  a CSA box of fresh produce, you have Robin Van En to thank. Robin Van En founded the first community-supported agriculture project in North America. Her work created a movement out of it. You know, now we find hundreds and hundreds of farms across the country using a CSA model to raise money before the growing season and lock in capital. And instead of having to pay it back with loans with ridiculous interest rates, they just pay back that money with really delicious food that they grow. We of course honor that history because it's so related to our mission of community-supported industry more broadly. Community-supported agriculture would fall into that umbrella.

• 1:12:26Speaker 06

  So she's on the $10 Berkshare. Notably, her CSA farm was located in Berkshire County. It was in the town of Eggermont. It still exists. Robin Van En passed away unexpectedly at a pretty young age, but the farm still has a thriving CSA program. It's on Community Land Trust land. So there's a lot of connections with her legacy and the Schumacher Center. Next up, we have the $5 Berkshare note, which features a local artist portrait of- W E B Du Bois, which is actually, I think, a really inspiring story out of the Berkshires organization. W E B Du Bois has really become the face of the town of Great Barrington and has been recognized as the son of the town.

• 1:13:10Speaker 06

  You'll find throughout Great Barrington, there are all sorts of murals and landmarks and historical sites that recount his history and are dedicated to him. You know, murals that include his face. The middle school actually has been renamed to W E B Du Bois Regional Middle School. And it feels like every month there's some new project in town to further honor and educate people on his history. Recently, a statue of W E B Du Bois was added outside the Great Barrington Library, Mason Library. So in general, the town has taken on a much more- More active role in honoring its history, but Berkshires has been doing that for a long time. So we're glad to have played a role. We hope that we played a role in

• 1:13:54Speaker 06

  changing that perception and getting the town to more actively celebrate its history. And lastly, for the $1 Berkshire note, rather than celebrate an individual, the Schumacher Center opted to celebrate a whole community. It's the only Berkshire that doesn't feature a specific individual, but it does feature a Stockbridge Mohican. The Mohicans were not actually native to the Berkshire region, but they were pushed over here during colonial times. And I think it's an interesting story because nowadays they actually look back to the Berkshires as their homeland in a way, even though it wasn't necessarily where they all came from originally. But

• 1:14:36Speaker 06

  the Mohicans were one of the only Native American tribes that fought alongside the revolutionaries in the Revolutionary War. But of course, they were pushed out of the Berkshire region eventually. But there is still an active presence with some local groups to maintain their history in the Berkshires. And we hope that Berkshires is one small part in doing that to remind people of the people that were here before us. Due to the 20-year success story of the Berkshires program, other communities across the country and around the world often approach the Schumacher Center for help to design, create, and distribute their own local currency.

• 1:15:20Speaker 06

  We are kind of that go-to institution for people that want to learn how to start their own currencies or other similar systems. And the number one challenge that I bring up to them, challenge, but also what we see is the most important thing for obtaining success with a local currency in the United States, would be working with community banks. Berkshires is very unique in that we do not exchange currency ourselves. You don't walk into a Berkshires office and trade in dollars for Berkshires. You walk into a community bank. In general, when you're working with a small community bank, they have all the infrastructure needed to account for a currency.

• 1:16:03Speaker 06

  This is equally key for the success of a local currency, since it is money, and it's important that people have full faith and trust in their money. To build trust in that system, you can't tell people, I'm keeping track of how much money is where, and I'll be able to make sure you can always trade your money back in. That's not going to build trust. But when you're doing it through an institution like a bank, that has the resources to just manage Berkshires like they do any other account, so it's not a crazy load on their part. That's how a system like Berkshires can thrive for so many years. If this sounds good to your ears, and if you'd like to see something like this in your local community, Peter LaRochelle has a few recommendations for how to make it happen.

• 1:16:44Speaker 06

  So if you're looking to start a local currency in the United States, the challenge that you're going to have to face, but also probably gives you the best opportunity for long-term success, is finding banking institutions that you can work with and work out of that share your mission. You're not going to be able to work out of the Bank of America. This should surprise no one. Much like the Austrian local currency that saved a town but was outlawed when the central bank heard about its success, in today's banking world, a major transnational bank like Bank of America has similar reasons to not want to see the success of a local currency. It offers direct competition for their bottom line, which is what matters most to big banks. Back to Peter LaRochelle.

• 1:17:29Speaker 06

  I say that all the time. If those are the only banks in your community, you might have to explore other options because they don't want to get involved with initiatives like this. You have to work with the kinds of banks that share your mission. And you can work through a credit union perhaps. Or in the Northeast, we have mutual banks that operate similarly to a credit union. But still, they're the small, community-focused banks that actually have ownership within the community. So they're more likely to sign on on an initiative like this. And since they share your mission of local economic development, that's also an easy sell. Norman Rockwell, who was mentioned earlier, celebrated small-town life and a local-based idea of Americana. And as such, his work serves as a reminder of the importance

• 1:18:12Speaker 06

  of embracing a local identity as a point, not just of pride of place, but as a source of community power in order to survive those storms that blow in from faraway places and threaten a community. Norman Rockwell serves as a beautiful reminder of the past and also what lessons we can pull from our history. The people that we feature on the Berkshires, like Norman Rockwell or W.E.B. Du Bois, these are people who everyone in a community can rally behind and can share something with. We're speaking to shared values that I think Americans across the political spectrum, Americans across generations, that they share. People want to see a vibrant,

• 1:18:57Speaker 06

  thriving, local economy within their community. And that's what we are ultimately looking for. And what's more American than teaming up with neighbors from any background, from all identities, to identify shared values and do work together to achieve that community and vision that you want to see? That's the American dream in a nutshell. OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of

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• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  I'm Melissa Jelton, and in my new podcast, What Happened to Her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled a suicide. She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety. Stories of survival.

• 1:20:16Speaker 03

  The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck, because by all rights, I should be dead.

• 1:20:23Speaker 01

  Cases that everyone else called closed. They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence. These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. No child should ever experience that. And we were babies. She did all of these brave things and came out and spoke about it, and he got a year.

• 1:20:48Speaker 03

  You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform.

• 1:20:54Speaker 01

  Listen to What Happened to Her on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:21:00Speaker 05

  You broke me. You do not deserve happiness.

• 1:21:04Speaker 01

  I'm Andrea Gunning. On this season of Betrayal, we meet Carl Bryant. Carl thought he was living a normal, drama-free life, until the messages started.

• 1:21:15Speaker 05

  You will have hell to pay.

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  For nine months, someone infiltrated every aspect of Carl's life, threatening to ruin him.

• 1:21:25Speaker 05

  Cyberstalking, swatting, extortion, impersonation.

• 1:21:30Speaker 01

  And then the text threats escalated.

• 1:21:33Speaker 05

  Someone's not going to make it out of this alive. Yes, department! It's playing out in real life, not just on the phone.

• 1:21:42Speaker 01

  Every piece of evidence pointed to one man. But every piece of evidence was a lie. He was not going to stop unless we stopped him. Listen to Betrayal, season six, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:22:00Speaker 04

  This is Daryl Bell. And I'm Kadim Harson. And together, we're the voices behind the newest podcast on the Black Effect Podcast Network, A Different Worldview with Daryl and Kadim. Each Thursday, we're re-watching an episode of the show that changed our lives and so many others, A Different World. We're sharing never-before-heard stories from behind the scenes and sitting down with other stars from the show to hear their unique perspectives. We're also discussing the arts world and pop culture headlines with plenty of laughs along the way.

• 1:22:32Speaker 06

  We did a movie called School Days, and me being- A trained actor. You get the first shot, so I took the trained actor. Go ahead. And you being the dude that said, "Hey, Spike, on the street, you saw him coming out of the bathroom or something?" And say, "Hey, Spike, coming out in the bathroom." I might have made that up. So don't miss the start of something great.

• 1:22:52Speaker 04

  Listen to A Different Worldview with Daryl and Kadim every Thursday from the Black Effect Podcast Network, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:23:04Speaker 05

  Vampires, minotars, 12-foot skeletons, and apartment doors? Believe it or not, we're talking about romance. It's a monster romance extravaganza on Radio 831, A Romy-

• 1:23:16Speaker 06

  So join me, St. Johna Basker and my co-host Tyler McCall, as we dive into the strange, horny and wonderfully thoughtful world of falling for something not quite human. I give Tyler a crash course in monster romance and the Villain Edit author Rosie Dannen joins to talk vampires, blood play and finding tenderness in a monstrous love interest. Then sentient object romance expert Racy Delgado takes us even deeper into the genre. Finally, I assign Tyler some homework to read C. M. Nascosta's Morning Glory, Milking Farm. And it's a doozy, but spoiler alert, Tyler emerges ready for more monster tales. Because sometimes, non-human romances can tell us the most about our desire, our fantasies, and what we actually want. Listen to Radio 831, a

• 1:23:59Speaker 06

  romance podcast, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:24:08Speaker 06

  If money makes the world go round, delivery workers make New York City go round. From delivering morning coffee to sweet green BullSlop or midnight Taco Bell, food delivery workers shuttle snacks and treats 24/7 via bicycle and scooter, while a network of last-mile couriers fill my apartment lobby with Amazon packages. Seriously, one of my new, more well-off neighbors must like never go to the store? They get every single thing delivered. I'm talking almost 10 Amazon packages a day for the same person. But there's an odd little quirk with how Amazon transports orders from the fulfillment center to your

• 1:24:53Speaker 06

  doorstep, in that they don't. The worker delivering your Amazon package may be wearing an Amazon vest, driving an Amazon van, and peeing in a water bottle so they don't fall behind on a delivery route scheduled by Amazon. But technically, that worker is not employed by Amazon. They work for a subcontractor, which Amazon calls a delivery service partner or a DSP. Why might that be? Picture this. A hurricane is rolling into town, but Amazon still needs to deliver those prime two-day orders. While drivers are in the middle of

• 1:25:34Speaker 06

  their route, the storm suddenly gets worse, and a driver gets into a bad accident. Because that driver is technically employed by a subcontractor, Amazon isn't responsible for the well-being of the worker and can't be held liable for any damages. Then, let's say those drivers unionize due to dangerous working conditions. Rather than negotiate with the union, Amazon can just terminate their contract with the delivery service partner.

• 1:26:08Speaker 06

  I'm Garrison Davis, and this is It Could Happen Here. And this is one of those "this is already happening" type stories, and actually has been for some time, but now people are organizing to do something about it. About a year ago, the Teamsters teamed up with Democratic Socialist New York City Councilmember Tiffany Caban to introduce Bill 05182026, also known as the Delivery Protection Act, which, among other things, would require companies like Amazon to actually employ the drivers and warehouse workers who handle

• 1:26:48Speaker 06

  the so-called "last mile" of delivery, getting your package from the local warehouse to your doorstep. The bill was reintroduced this past February, and for the past few months, the New York City chapter of the Democratic Socialists of America have been organizing to push the bill over the finish line.

• 1:27:08Speaker 03

  My name's Matt Mareska. Olivia and I are both on the Labor Working Group Organizing Committee for NYCDSA. I am the legislative coordinator, the labor legislative coordinator for the group.

• 1:27:20Speaker 06

  I'm Olivia, and I serve on both the Labor Working Group Organizing Committee, as well as the steering committee for the entire chapter.

• 1:27:29Speaker 03

  Currently, anyone you see delivering packages in New York City to you, you know, to your apartment building, to your house, wearing the Amazon vest with the Amazon truck, all of those people are subcontractors. They work out of what are called delivery service providers, or you know DSPs. And these, again, kind of basic subcontractors. But the problem with that model is that Amazon does that to avoid all accountability, either to their workers or to the city. So anytime that workers express dissatisfaction with the working conditions, or, you know, seem like they're organizing because of those conditions, or if the city is noticing that one of these DSPs is causing way more accidents on the

• 1:28:12Speaker 03

  road than other providers of delivery, anything like that happens and they start, people start looking into one of these DSPs, Amazon will just cut their contract with the subcontractor and say, you know, "That wasn't us. That was, you know, Matt Mareska LLC or Garrison Davis LLC. It had nothing to do with me." You know, it sounds silly, but it's actually pretty strong legal defense, apparently.

• 1:28:33Speaker 06

  The Delivery Protection Act seeks to change all that. The bill would require last-mile delivery facilities to obtain a license from the Department of Consumer and Worker Protection and establish a minimum safety, training, and worker protection standards. But the big thing this bill would do is force Amazon and other companies that use third-party contractors to directly employ their delivery and warehouse workers. According to the Office of Mayor Zoran Mamdani, the Delivery Protection Act would give this city the tools to regulate last-mile operations and ensure major companies like Amazon are responsible for their workers and the consequences of the business decisions they make.

• 1:29:17Speaker 03

  So what this bill does is mandate that any package delivery service from Amazon or another large logistical company coming into New York City has to directly employ its drivers. So that means all of these drivers now in those vests, in those Amazon trucks, need to be directly employed by Amazon, which means that Amazon is both directly responsible for any problems they cause on the road, or their emissions, or things like that. It also means that if their workers start organizing, Amazon can't just cut them all and replace with different people nearly as easily. So beyond that, that's the main bulk of it. It also does give workers extra protections for expressing their organizing rights on the job. So it gets close to giving them what we might call just cause protections on the job, although it's not quite that strong. But that means it's much harder for

• 1:30:02Speaker 03

  them to be fired for speaking up. And then it also allows for independent safety inspectors to go into these warehouses and provide the education to make sure the drivers are safe, and also New Yorkers are safe when they're delivering their packages. So it's really a holistic bill to regulate Amazon and the city, and especially make sure that the workers are protected and have their rights to organize protected.

• 1:30:26Speaker 06

  And that protection is really important. Because right now, if a delivery driver gets hurt or gets into an accident, because those drivers technically work for a, quote, "third party," Amazon can't be held liable, even when it's Amazon who orders, quote, "delivery service partners," to send out drivers in dangerous weather conditions. A Bloomberg investigation from earlier this year detailed a series of such incidents with a delivery service partner in Southern California. In summer of 2022, Amazon complained to the DSP that drivers were falling behind on their schedule while temperatures reached

• 1:31:10Speaker 06

  107 degrees. The DSP manager told an Amazon rep that Amazon failed to apply their own policy on easing workloads during extreme heat, but the Amazon rep responded by saying it was too late to change the day's delivery assignments, and the manager would need a written affidavit to prove that workers were too sick to perform. And Amazon threatened breach of contract if packages were delayed. Later that winter, during a historic storm, an Amazon rep told this DSP that, quote, "delivery must be attempted despite flash

• 1:31:52Speaker 06

  flooding, road closures, and grounded flights." So drivers were dispatched out of fear that Amazon might terminate their DSP contract. But then, a few months later, their contract was cut anyway after the workers tried to form a union. And this is not an isolated incident. Per Bloomberg, the Teamsters have filed complaints with the National Labor Relations Board accusing Amazon of terminating contracts with several DSPs because the workers unionized. Just a few weeks before the Delivery Protection Act was introduced last year, Amazon

• 1:32:33Speaker 06

  fired over 150 unionized delivery drivers in Queens by cutting ties with the third-party delivery service partner. Even calling DSPs, quote, "third parties" is misleading, because they don't operate as such. Everything about how they run is controlled by Amazon. Through a FOIA request, Bloomberg was able to obtain thousands of pages of confidential Amazon records related to an NLRB case against Amazon for firing that DSP in California after its workers unionized. A case, by the way, that was settled in favor of Amazon after Trump appointed a former Amazon lawyer to serve-

• 1:33:19Speaker 06

  As National Labor Relations Board General Counsel. But that's another episode. Per Bloomberg, these confidential company documents, quote, "lay bare Amazon's intimate and intensive regulation of workers it insists aren't its employees, including governing which drivers DSPs can hire, when they work, what they wear, what they say, how they smell, and much more. Amazon requires that DSPs make drivers sign non-disclosure agreements and take drug tests when an Amazon rep deems appropriate. On the job, drivers are required to wear Amazon polos and Amazon pants or shorts,

• 1:34:03Speaker 06

  with the options of an Amazon hat, never to be worn backward, and an Amazon coat. Amazon also requires that drivers be, quote, "neat and clean," including, quote, "prevention of unpleasant breath or body odor, modest perfume/cologne, and clean teeth, face/ears, fingernails, and hair," unquote. If Amazon isn't satisfied with a particular driver, it can, quote, "deactivate them, unilaterally terminating their authorization to deliver its packages." According to company records, Amazon also formulates performance rankings of DSP drivers and creates leaderboards

• 1:34:45Speaker 06

  for each DSP owner ranking each of their staff. Amazon's systems also use bright yellow, orange, or red to mark, quote, "areas where a driver has spent excessive amounts of time." Amazon also controls AI-powered cameras in drivers' vans, which are supposed to flag unsafe driving. Drivers say the cameras can tag them with undue infractions for yawning or drinking water, or just having breasts that obscure their seatbelt, unquote. And because of the high delivery quotas, drivers are still routinely forced to pee in bottles to meet their assigned deliveries.

• 1:35:29Speaker 06

  And due to these new AI-powered cameras, some drivers are forced to move around Amazon boxes to block the cameras from seeing their genitals before peeing. Amazon also has the live location of all of their drivers, and if something goes wrong, those drivers are supposed to call a hotline operated by Amazon, not the delivery service provider. Amazon offers DSPs templates for job listings and has to approve each new hire, who is then required to attend a multi-day training program, also facilitated by Amazon. According to these internal company documents, Amazon outlines seven steps drivers must follow

• 1:36:14Speaker 06

  for a successful delivery and instructs drivers to, quote, "help validate the customer's investment by greeting them with a smile, being enthusiastic, and thanking the customer for choosing Amazon," unquote. And again, Amazon insists that these drivers do not, in fact, work for Amazon, even though Amazon tells these DSPs that these drivers, quote, "represent Amazon to our customers." Bloomberg interviewed a dozen drivers from various DSPs who described these subcontractors as essentially "shell companies" that, quote, "force Amazon's extreme rules,

• 1:36:59Speaker 06

  constant surveillance, and grueling quotas that, in some urban areas, can reach 30 stops an hour." One says her DSP manager suggested a funnel that she could use to pee into a bottle in her van. Others say their managers told them they must precisely follow any route Amazon's software lays out for them, even if it makes no sense, to help the algorithm learn. Amazon says that such characterizations are, quote, "false." Algorithmic management is a big part of this model. How else could Amazon manage hundreds of thousands of drivers across thousands of allegedly independent subcontractors?

• 1:37:44Speaker 06

  Amazon plugs all the surveillance data from location tracking, delivery metrics, and live cameras into an AI, which creates evolving minimum efficiency standards to apply to all workers like a form of digital tailorism. Contrast that with the Teamsters UPS Union, who, in their last contract, banned inward-facing surveillance cameras and prohibited UPS from disciplining drivers solely based on GPS data, algorithmic metrics, or surveillance technology. Meaning, workers can't get punished just for falling below an algorithmically-projected quota. And if they do, they can file a grievance.

• 1:38:29Speaker 06

  But essentially, this subcontracted, last-mile DSP model allows Amazon to maximize delivery speed without having to worry about the workers' well-being and the safety of both the drivers themselves and the neighborhoods on the delivery routes. Amazon gets to pass the buck to these, quote, "third-party subcontractors." This whole "last-mile" scheme is just a method to evade accountability for underpaying workers while forcing them to work at an excruciating pace in unsafe conditions.

• 1:39:18Speaker 06

  There are thousands of DSP subcontractors with hundreds of thousands of drivers delivering your Amazon packages all across the country. In the past few years, last-mile delivery facilities have rapidly expanded in New York City. Since 2017, 18 such facilities have opened across New York City, 11 of them since 2020, driven by the pandemic-era e-commerce boom. In 2017, about 1.1 million packages were delivered every day in the city. By 2024, that number more than doubled to 2.5 million packages per day, indicating that nearly a third of New Yorkers

• 1:40:00Speaker 06

  receive packages on a daily basis. According to a report by the City Controller, between 2022 and 2024, more than 2,000 severe workplace injuries at last-mile facilities were reported to OSHA. The injury rate at Amazon DSPs was nearly five times higher than the national average. And after these last-mile facilities opened, surrounding areas saw a 137% rise in truck injury crashes. Currently, there are seven ongoing investigations into these "third-party last-mile facilities" by the Department of Consumer and Worker Protection.

• 1:40:45Speaker 06

  According to the Teamsters, who have been fighting to organize Amazon workers in New York City for years, if the Delivery Protection Act gets passed, New York would become the first city to outlaw this exploitative subcontractor model and require companies like Amazon directly employ and therefore be responsible for their last-mile delivery workers. And this past summer, the NYCDSA Labor Working Group has been working with the Teamsters to pressure the city council into passing this bill. How long has Delivery Protection Act been something that the organization has been focused on organizing for?

• 1:41:26Speaker 03

  So, we decided it should be a priority in the spring. Our term on leadership started in January, and we did a process of looking through city and state bills that we wanted to work on. It really got into high gear over the summer, though, when we knew that our allies in the labor movement were looking to push this for a vote in the fall. So, we really started our kickoff in July, and then we've been canvassing a bunch of different districts throughout the city since the start of August, and it's been going ever since.

• 1:41:58Speaker 06

  Yeah, and I should just note, you know, that's when we kicked into high gear. But of course, Tiffany Caban, our socialist in office in the city council, has been working with the Amazon Teamsters and the workers, these Amazon locations, for quite a while. And the team that helped draft the legislation and move it and introduce it in City Hall has been working on it for a lot longer. So, we're building on a really strong foundation. What has the organizing around this bill looked like on the ground and also, you know, in the digital sphere?

• 1:42:35Speaker 03

  On our end, so as the labor working group, we've really been focused on a large-scale canvassing operation for the bill. So, we've been having canvases every two weeks. Started in a council district of Rita Joseph in Flatbush. We printed a lot of literature with her face on it, demanding that she get onto the bill, and she immediately got on. So, I have about 4,000 pieces of literature that I can no longer use, which is a good problem to have. Since then, we made new lit that doesn't have anyone's face on it because we've been flipping more council members. So, we did three rounds of canvassing for four different city council members who are also not on the bill. We're going to canvass in Speaker Julie Menon's district because, right now, we actually already

• 1:43:20Speaker 03

  have a supermajority on the city council. So, really, the only thing standing in our way is getting the speaker to introduce it for a vote, because she ultimately really controls what goes up to a vote, even if the bill already has a supermajority. So, that's the main thing we've been doing. But in addition to that, we've been working with a research team to look into the subcontractors that Amazon uses for these, they call them DSPs, delivery service providers, to get a feel for who actually owns and operates these and how safe they are for workers. And that's really been something we're working on closely with our Teamster partners. And we've also had a number of rallies and things as well at City Hall. So, that's all really been in the last few months.

• 1:44:01Speaker 06

  It's not just Amazon who's using this last-mile subcontractor model. FedEx also uses subcontractors called "ground contracted service providers," and they too would be affected by the bill. Obviously, Amazon is the biggest company that would be affected by this, but it's not specifically targeted at Amazon. It's targeted at any business that is operating what's called a last mile delivery operation in the city of New York. So there are other, other companies that would be affected. I believe, you know, Walmart also operates sometimes on this model. But, you know, Amazon is obviously by far the biggest. They have the biggest market share. So of course they're the ones who are most afraid of this. And afraid of it they are.

• 1:44:47Speaker 06

  As of August, Amazon has spent at least $5 million lobbying against the Delivery Protection Act. And according to DSA, that spending has only increased. You know, you asked about in the digital space. Certainly our opponents have been hard at work in the digital space. Amazon dropped, how much, how much money, Matt? Like millions of dollars. It's at eight, eight million now, I believe, eight million dollars. Yeah. And it's not just Amazon. They got their friends in Redney, the Real Estate Board of New York, to believe that this is also something that they should oppose. So they've been spending money against this, lobbying against this.

• 1:45:32Speaker 06

  And there are ads right now, there are digital ads, you know, trying to convince people that this bill is somehow going to be harmful to small businesses, which is ludicrous because, you know, Amazon is biggest killers of small business. Some of that money has gone to a corporate lobbying group called the Five Bureau Jobs Campaign, who commissioned a study that miraculously concluded that the Delivery Protection Act would raise annual delivery costs for New York households by $664 a year and threaten 10,000 city jobs. Amazon themselves told the city council that the Delivery Protection Act

• 1:46:16Speaker 06

  would prohibit their agreements with more than 40, quote, "small businesses", that is, delivery service partners, and put over 5,000 jobs at risk. Now, the bill includes a retention clause requiring Amazon, or whatever company, to offer to rehire subcontracted drivers and warehouse workers who were previously employed through a DSP, before offering to hire any other workers as employees. Brendan Griffith, president of the New York City Central Labor Council, put it really well, quote, "To be clear, when these companies raise the alarm of fewer jobs, higher prices, or service reductions,

• 1:46:59Speaker 06

  they are describing choices that they may make, not in the best interest of consumers and workers, but to protect their bottom line." And of course, any potential job loss would be the choice of Amazon and not because of this bill. And it's not like Amazon doesn't already regularly lay off these workers. According to a Teamsters report, since 2018, Amazon has closed 35 DSPs in New York State, resulting in the loss of over 3,500 jobs. And that was without the bill, which would of course, give those workers more protections.

• 1:47:42Speaker 06

  Remember, Amazon fired over 150 DSP drivers last year in New York City after they unionized. The most insidious part of this delivery service partner subcontractor arrangement is how it allows Amazon to have this sort of workaround for union busting. When these last mile delivery workers attempt to unionize, rather than recognize or deal with the union, Amazon can just cut off the entire subcontractor, putting all those workers out of jobs, while Amazon can just switch to a new, non-union subcontractor. And this is apparently legal because these workers

• 1:48:27Speaker 06

  aren't directly employed by Amazon. So in effect, it's illegal union busting without actually having to do illegal union busting. So you can see why this model is so attractive to these corporations. Because using these delivery subcontractors gives you this little loophole to avoid negotiating with a union. And it's insane that they're able to get away with this. As much as they fear monger about how if there's unions, deliveries will cost each household $600 more, that doesn't seem to be the case for UPS, who is still profitable after its unionized

• 1:49:12Speaker 06

  delivery drivers secured pay raises in their 2023 contract. To quote the famously socialist outlet, The Wall Street Journal, quote, "A large body of research has shown that when companies stop employing their own workers for tasks and instead push those jobs out to smaller firms or to freelancers, wages and other job protections tend to decline. The New York bill is, quote, 'very innovative', said Paul Osterman, a professor emeritus at MIT and the author of Disposable Workers, a new book on the transformation of employment.

• 1:49:54Speaker 06

  His own surveys of work arrangements indicate about 12% of US workers are contractors employed by intermediaries." So as I've already suggested, this model is a much bigger problem than just Amazon. Amazon has also threatened that if the Delivery Protection Act passes, it would force them to, quote, "consider relocating delivery operations outside the city." Specifically, Amazon has threatened to move its distribution centers to New Jersey, which they say would extend delivery times for New York City residents.

• 1:50:37Speaker 06

  But then in August, New Jersey sued Amazon alleging their use of last mile contractors is illegal, with New Jersey claiming, per The Wall Street Journal, quote, "The e-commerce giant illegally used its dominance over its package delivery network to suppress wages and working conditions for thousands of delivery drivers while preventing them from organizing." Amazon has said the complaint is, quote, "not grounded in fact", unquote. So I think it's unlikely Amazon will actually move all of their facilities from New York City to New Jersey because one, companies never actually move out of New York, and two, doesn't seem like they're going to have much more luck

• 1:51:22Speaker 06

  in New Jersey anyway, if the state is claiming the very same things that lawmakers have here in New York, which has prompted the Delivery Protection Act. But that's the type of propaganda that Amazon is running to try to push back on the bill. And we mentioned Amazon running ads, but they're not just running ads. Around July, I got sent this very oddly worded survey from Amazon with all these leading questions about like, would I support a bill that made my deliveries more expensive, take longer, or force independent delivery drivers to work for big corporations?

• 1:52:06Speaker 06

  It had maybe like 10 to 15 of these questions that were all phrased very oddly so that they could engineer specific responses, so that Amazon could have a survey that shows like X number of New Yorkers think this bill's a bad idea, or think a bill that would do XYZ is a bad idea. You know, they've been sending those all over. People keep texting me, oh, I got the survey, Matt, or sending me pictures of the mailers. But, you know, in reality, we're actually doing the work and like knocking on, I think we've knocked over 9,000 doors now. And you actually talk to New Yorkers about the bill. It's extremely popular. You know, Olivia and I have both done a lot of canvassing for electoral candidates, people like Mayor Mumdani.

• 1:52:49Speaker 06

  And it's a lot harder to go canvass for electoral candidates, right? There's a lot of people who tell you, you know, get out of my face. But when you knock on a door and say, this is a bill that's going to get Amazon under control. It's going to help these workers, you know, organize unions and protect their rights. People are immediately on board. Sometimes all you have to say is, this bill is, you know, about controlling Amazon. People are like, where do I sign? So, you know, New Yorkers in reality are really ready to find a way to rein this company in that's more and more controlling every aspect of their lives. So don't worry, you know, the survey notwithstanding, the bill seems to be extremely popular when anyone actually learns what it does.

• 1:53:39Speaker 06

  Part of Amazon's fear around the Delivery Protection Act could also be due to the Mumdani administration's aggressive approach to enforcing worker protections and cracking down on big corporations exploiting delivery workers. Last month, Mayor Mumdani and the Department of Consumer and Worker Protection announced a record $131.5 million settlement from DoorDash for underpaying or even not paying their delivery workers. This is the largest labor enforcement action in New York City history, the largest labor settlement in municipal history.

• 1:54:24Speaker 06

  Over $115 million will go directly to more than 260,000 workers who were denied the pay that they earned, with DoorDash paying an additional $16 million in civil penalties, including funding to build a city and worker-run wage theft monitoring tool to keep DoorDash accountable. Here's the deputy mayor for economic justice, Julie Su. DoorDash built a system that was quietly

• 1:54:58Speaker 05

  Leaving out categories of trips and on-call time, so the real amount of work by deliveristas wasn't counted. Worse, that practice was hidden from workers, making it almost impossible for them to know when they were underpaid. Some were paid late, some weren't paid at all.

• 1:55:19Speaker 06

  This historic settlement is not just the result of increased investment in the Department of Consumer and Worker Protection by Mayor Mumdani, but also the tireless work of deliveristas, advocates, and organizers at the Workers' Justice Project. Affected DoorDash workers don't even have to file a claim. The Department of Consumer and Worker Protection has already identified all individuals owed money through their analysis of DoorDash's records and will reach out to workers later this month. The department poured through terabytes of pay data to discover the huge magnitude of wage theft and systemic violations of New

• 1:56:04Speaker 06

  York City's delivery worker laws, like the minimum pay rate.

• 1:56:08Speaker 05

  Now, two months ago, Tony Hsu, the CEO of DoorDash, gave business owners a piece of advice. A CEO, he said, has to "take the greedy algorithm and keep going all the way to see if there is more." In computer science, a greedy algorithm is one that makes the most optimized, best short-term outcome choice at every step and never weighs the consequences. New York City and the tens of thousands of delivery workers who call our city home have reckoned with greed as a business model for far too long. For years, DoorDash failed to count every hour worked by delivery workers. This was not a rounding

• 1:56:51Speaker 05

  error or an accidental mistake. In 2023, when the city began enforcing a minimum pay rate for delivery workers, DoorDash left time out of the count, time on canceled trips and trips that crossed city limits. Investigators at our incredible Department of Consumer and Worker Protection went through terabytes of DoorDash's own data. After analyzing 152 million payments and 110 million hours of work, they arrived at a staggering conclusion. DoorDash had underpaid more than 260,000 delivery workers across New York City between

• 1:57:33Speaker 05

  April of 2022 and June of 2026.

• 1:57:38Speaker 06

  According to the mayor's office, these workers will receive compensation calculated at approximately 200% of the amount that they were underpaid. Just last year, DoorDash spent over $1 million to prevent Mumdani from being elected, and now they must pay over $131 million. After Mayor Mumdani announced this settlement, DoorDash took to social media to post a Notes app-style apology, reading, quote, "We messed up. Our mistakes meant some NYC dashers were underpaid or paid late. That's unacceptable, and we're

• 1:58:23Speaker 06

  deeply sorry to the dashers we let down. We've reached a settlement with the City of New York, and we will make this right by paying every impacted dasher the amounts they are owed," unquote. Bitch, you stole over $100 million. That's a big oopsie. You didn't just let some dashers down. Per the mayor's office, quote, "This enforcement action builds on the Mumdani administration's broader effort to vigorously enforce the laws that protect delivery workers. The administration has already secured more than

• 1:59:04Speaker 06

  $104 million in additional tips by cracking down on deceptive app design and $725 million in increased wages for delivery workers since January," unquote. Mayor Mumdani ended the DoorDash announcement with a warning to other companies.

• 1:59:26Speaker 05

  And to any corporation that has built a business model on greedy algorithms and worker exploitation, consider this your notice. If you keep trying to rip off New Yorkers, we will be happy to make history again. This is New York City, where hard work pays and greed will cost you. Thank you.

• 1:59:47Speaker 06

  About a month earlier, on August 10th, Mayor Mumdani publicly backed the Delivery Protection Act and made a slick little video explaining what it is and why it's important for workers. To quote the mayor, quote, "Corporations like Amazon build billion-dollar business models by insulating themselves from accountability through a system of exploitative subcontracting. As last-mile delivery centers have exploded across New York, so too have traffic accidents and worker injuries. The Delivery Protection Act is a common sense regulation that protects delivery workers, safeguards the communities where these facilities

• 2:00:27Speaker 06

  operate, and ensures that the corporations benefiting from workers' labor are responsible for the consequences of their business practices. New Yorkers should not be forced to subsidize corporate profits with less safe streets and more precarious jobs. The people that make these companies run deserve dignity, stability, and a safe workplace. It's time to end the subcontracting model that puts profits over people and build an economy that works for working New Yorkers." One of the best things we've had is we've had the support of the mayor. Mayor Mumdani and Deputy Mayor Julie Su have come out really strongly in favor of the bill.

• 2:01:10Speaker 06

  There was amazing press about that, so a lot of earned media around that. And a lot of our coalition members have also been hard at work, doing a lot of additional research, putting out really amazing press. In fact, just this week, there was a wonderful story that featured the work of our friends in Align. They did some really great research locating all of the different traffic violations and parking violations Amazon has incurred. Because this bill isn't just a worker safety bill, this is a street safety bill and a climate bill. You know, our SIO Tiffany loves to talk about how this last-mile delivery

• 2:01:52Speaker 06

  sector is kind of like the Wild West. It's just exploded, and there really isn't a whole lot of rules of the road, of guidelines, of regulation. And so they're just kind of running roughshod. And this really uses the power of the city municipal legislation to really regulate in a very sensible way how these businesses should operate for the safety of workers, for the safety of consumers, and for everybody out on the streets of the city. As Matt from DSA mentioned earlier this episode, after sending over 100 letters and knocking on thousands of doors, City Councilmember Rita Joseph in Flatbush almost immediately

• 2:02:33Speaker 06

  flipped and signed on to the bill this past August. But she's not the only one who's changed tune since DSA and the Teamsters upped their organizing this summer. We've had a big influence since we started the canvassing operation. I think in New York politics at this point, people know what it means when a bunch of people at DSA signs start showing up in your neighborhood and knocking doors. People get very freaked out very quickly, which is good for us. So, like I said, when we knocked Rita Joseph's door, she decided to get on to the bill right away. We also then got another council member named Sean O'Grady to flip on to the bill as well, I think the same day. It was also

• 2:03:14Speaker 06

  right around when Mayor Mumdani put his video out, so I'm sure for a lot of council members it was really time to get on board, time between us and the mayor. But then since then, we also were able to move Councilmember Camilla Hanks on to the bill as well. And she's really important to get on because her district is actually on Staten Island and overlaps a lot of the Amazon organizing going on there that goes all the way back to the Amazon Labor Union and the ALU. So it was really important for us to make sure that Staten Island is part of our plans because those workers have been in the Amazon fight longer than anyone, and we're really proud of that one as well. So in total, in the last two and a half months, we flipped three people on to the bill. And we've also really developed a kind of citywide feeling that this bill is very, very important for workers' rights,

• 2:03:59Speaker 06

  and we really see more and more people talking about it now. And I think that that has a lot to do with the publicity we've given it over the last couple of months. So, again, we already have a supermajority. Now it's really just all about getting Speaker Menon to actually put it for a vote, and if she does, we're extremely confident that it will pass. With a supermajority in City Council, now the pressure is on Speaker Julie Menon to call the bill to a vote. Last Saturday, DSA canvassed Speaker Menon's district in the Upper East Side, and they plan to do another neighborhood canvas sometime next week. We want to get the bill passed on November 12. So that's the new deadline. So we're going to be doing more canvassing, hopefully having more rallies.

• 2:04:43Speaker 06

  DSA also has an online tool to help you send your city council member or Speaker Menon a letter expressing your support for the Delivery Protection Act. You can send a letter to your council member or to Speaker Menon. I think sending it to Speaker Menon at this point is the most important thing. So anyone who's a New York listener should definitely, should definitely do that. In terms of rallies, DSA is planning a big last hurrah in support of this bill outside City Hall on October 22nd, which will be the last city council meeting before November, when organizers intend for the bill to be brought to a vote. So we're going to have a big showing right outside City Hall on October 22nd

• 2:05:28Speaker 06

  to really demonstrate our power and really put out the call out there for this bill to be agendized and brought to the floor for a vote on November 12. Yeah. So if anyone wants to come out and canvass or come to a rally, this is really the final push. And we're, we're feeling pretty confident, but we need to, we need to end strong. The Delivery Protection Act could be the wedge that cracks open Amazon by strengthening workers' ability to organize through closing the illegal union busting loophole and ensuring that corporations like Amazon or FedEx can no longer get away with using third-party shell companies to shield themselves from liability. Samuel Levin, the Commissioner

• 2:06:13Speaker 06

  of the Department of Consumer and Worker Protection, put it plainly, quote, "The Delivery Protection Act affirms a simple idea: Those who profit from our labor and public spaces must also be responsible for the people and communities that make it possible," unquote. Chipping away at Amazon's vast network of delivery subcontractors could also have national ramifications. If the Delivery Protection Act passes in New York City, it could provide a template for other cities across the country to start to regulate Amazon to protect last mile delivery workers and shut down the hyper-exploitative subcontractor

• 2:06:55Speaker 06

  model dominating huge sectors of our economy. And if we succeed here in New York, surely it can be done elsewhere. In New York City DSA, we just really feel strongly that taking on Amazon is a really important existential battle for socialists and the labor movement. So we see this as really the first step in using the power we have in canvassing and the electoral arena, but also our ability to, you know, mass mobilize people to figure out a way to rein Amazon in and really help the labor movement take it on because it's more and more infiltrating every sector of the economy. They're going into entertainment. They are

• 2:07:34Speaker 06

  also going into groceries. They're going into web technologies and AI. They're really everywhere. Set to be the first company to make a trillion dollars in profit. And if we're going to have a socialist future in New York and in America, really anywhere, we need to beat Amazon and get it organized in the same way that they had to organize steel or the auto industry in the 30s. The fight now really does have to go through Amazon if we're going to see the socialist future we're all fighting for.

• 2:08:06Speaker 06

  Yeah. And I would just add, you know, for me especially, and I think for a lot of DSA members, what makes the DSA difference isn't just, you know, that we are taking on a big corporation and the way that the legislation really empowers workers. It's how we campaign. It's literally the way in which we fight. We are doing it, as Matt said, using all of the same tools that helped us win the mayoralty and helped us win big in recent primaries. It's just literally the basics of organizing. We are just talking to people. And lo and behold, as Matt said, none of them like Amazon. They want it to be regulated. You know, that is the DSA difference. We organize people. We have member-led and

• 2:08:51Speaker 06

  worker-led campaigns. That is transformative. To keep up with the Delivery Protection Act, you can follow NYCDSA on Instagram or NYCDSA Labor. As mentioned, there will be a canvas in Julie Menon's district sometime next week and a, hopefully, final rally on October 22nd.

• 2:09:21Speaker 01

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  Vampires, minotars, 12-foot skeletons, and apartment doors? Believe it or not, we're talking about romance. It's a monster romance extravaganza on Radio 831, a romance podcast. So join me, Sanjana Baskar, and my co-host Tyler McCull, as we dive into the strange, horny, and wonderfully thoughtful world of falling for something not quite human. I give Tyler a crash course in monster romance, and the Villain Edit author Rosie Dannen joins to talk vampires, blood play, and finding tenderness in a monstrous love interest. Then, sentient object romance expert Racy Delgado takes us even deeper into the genre. Finally, I assign Tyler some homework to read Siem Naskosta's Morning Glory: Milking

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• 2:14:03Speaker 06

  Hello, everyone, and welcome to It Could Happen Here. My name is Dan Al Kherd. I'm a researcher and analyst of Arab and Palestinian politics. Today, I'm talking with Yara Asse, who is a Palestinian scholar, author, and public health researcher studying how conflict, structural violence, and political systems shape health and human security. And she's also a non-resident fellow at the Arab Center, Washington, where I'm also a non-resident fellow. And she's been doing a lot of excellent work highlighting the health impacts of Israeli policies and American policies in the Middle East generally, but also particularly in Israel-Palestine. So today, we're going to talk about what are the health conditions in Gaza. I think that we have seen a lot of the spectacular violence.

• 2:14:43Speaker 06

  We understand, and even the most unaware, understand the degree to which Gaza has been devastated. But she breaks down for us what that looks like and what are the policies that are being used to attack Palestinian health in Gaza and in the West Bank, and then what it means for the Palestinian people to be so de-developed, not only economically, but at every sector, including the health sector. It's a very bleak episode. None of my episodes are good, but, you know, this one is particularly hard to listen to. There's also a mention of sexual violence, not in detail, of course, but I do want to just put that out there for, for listeners as fair warning, because that is a very triggering

• 2:15:27Speaker 06

  conversation, regardless, even if it is, you know, at the simplest level of detail. But without further ado, this is Yara about the health impacts of Israeli policy on the Palestinian people. Thank you for listening.

• 2:15:44Speaker 06

  Yara, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you for having me. So I want to start, we're going to talk both about Gaza and the West Bank, but I want to start with Gaza at the beginning here. Could you give us a rundown of what health conditions are like in Gaza right now? Yeah, absolutely. You know, this has been obviously the Focus of a lot of health research over the past three years since the beginning of the genocide and for good reason, because it's kind of a microcosm of every possible public health disaster you could imagine in a single, very small, very populated setting. So just, you know, some, some top line numbers, we know that at the very least, 74,000 Palestinians

• 2:16:24Speaker 06

  have been killed since October 7th and epidemiological projections estimate that the number is likely much higher, especially when you add in all of those that have died from starvation, malnutrition, or lack of access to healthcare because they had cancer, or they needed a heart, you know, surgery or brain surgery or something. And we know that at least 20,000, around 20,000 people in Gaza, many of whom are children, require immediate medical evacuations for some sort of procedure unrelated typically to trauma. We're talking a lot of cancer cases, high-risk pregnancies, complex surgeries that they can no longer get in the Gaza Strip

• 2:17:04Speaker 06

  because the healthcare system has been essentially decimated. As of this past month, there's also, you know, more than 100,000 injuries. Many of those are life-changing injuries, amputations, nerve damage, spinal damage, brain damage that will require lifelong rehabilitation. And, you know, the obvious question is, who's going to do that and who's going to pay for that and what's going to happen to those people? Less than half of Gaza's hospitals are even partially functioning. So prior to the genocide, Gaza had about 36 hospitals, many of which offered, you know, a variety of services, but some of which were specialized, you know, cancer care, pediatric hospital. Now we're at a point where the hospitals

• 2:17:49Speaker 06

  that are even still open, because so many were damaged, destroyed, or just have no resources, are just basically able to do basic care, emergency care, triage, basic wound management. Israel is still restricting at the border, medical supplies, you know, basic pharmaceuticals, medications, things that would be available in basically any other context on earth, even in low-income countries, are not available in the Gaza Strip. We know that 1,700 health workers and humanitarian workers have been killed in Gaza, many of whom were directly targeted, either in their homes or in aid convoys. And, you know, it's an environmental disaster. So there's sewage in the streets, there's lack of clean water, there's Rats.

• 2:18:34Speaker 06

  Rats, yes, biting people in their tents, God knows what floating in the air that people are inhaling on a daily basis, including babies and children. So it is just as bad as we imagine. And, you know, we're about, what, a year now from this quote unquote ceasefire? More than 1,400 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed since the quote unquote ceasefire, and others are dying in other completely inhumane ways, such as building collapse that we saw a couple of, of weeks ago, because many people, to avoid the rats and the cold, because winter is coming, have just decided, I'm going to go back to a structure, even if it is half collapse Damaged.

• 2:19:15Speaker 06

  Damaged. And we're unfortunately seeing that some of these structures are collapsing with, with people and families inside. So, you know, although the health crisis in Gaza has kind of disappeared from the news as soon as the ceasefire process started, the health catastrophe is just as bad and it is not getting better. You know, I get stuck on this question. It's like, like you said, what's going to happen to these people, even if the ceasefire stopped killing people, which, you know, like you said, there are still people dying. Like, we need something so dramatic. And it shouldn't be the case that the rest of the world steps in to pay for Israel's crimes,

• 2:19:56Speaker 06

  you know, like, anyway, that's a, that's a whole other issue. But I want to highlight some of the work that you have been doing for the Arab Center Washington in particular, and I'll put all of these in the show notes as well. But you wrote a piece for the Arab Center Washington about medical evacuation, and that Israel is controlling this process and using it as a tool of war. So could you break down this argument for us and describe it to listeners who may not be as familiar? Yeah, absolutely. So due to the blockade in Gaza, we're talking the pre-2023 blockade, as well as the import restrictions in the West Bank that have kind of put a ceiling on what the local health systems are able to do. So certain medical equipment is banned

• 2:20:39Speaker 06

  by Israel from entering Gaza or the West Bank. And so for decades, there has been a medical permit system that Palestinians have to apply to a permit, apply to Israel, mind you, receive permission from COGAT, paid for by the Palestinian Authority. So Israel is not paying for these medical evacuations. And they would leave the West Bank or Gaza to receive care, usually in East Jerusalem, sometimes in Israel, sometimes in neighboring countries like Jordan and Egypt. As of October 7th, Israel essentially closed that process that had existed. And this was an already broken process, and I could talk to you all

• 2:21:20Speaker 06

  day about that process, before even all of the, the current situation. But what has happened is, Israel is really tightly constricting who is able to leave the Gaza Strip, even to go to the West Bank, which is both occupied Palestinian territory, to receive the medical care that they need. I was just at an event last week where the CEO of Augusta Victoria Hospital, which is one of the main hospitals in the East Jerusalem Hospital Network, which is where many Palestinians go, especially for cancer care, he said he hasn't seen a single patient from Gaza since October 7th. The World Health Organization has a list of, again, approximately 20,000 cases of people that need to leave to receive care.

• 2:22:03Speaker 06

  And aside from the fact that Israel is often delaying the approval of these permits, and anyone listening knows, when you have a health issue, you don't have infinite time. They're usually time-sensitive, especially if you're dealing with something like cancer or pregnancy, obviously very time-sensitive. If you delay, you're going to need more care, greater care, and your prognosis is just worse. You're much more likely, if you do have cancer, wouldn't we rather treat it when you're stage one than when you're stage four and you're finally able to get the permit? So we are seeing people dying while waiting for these permits. We have heard reports that for some people who did manage to leave Gaza to receive care,

• 2:22:45Speaker 06

  that they were being forced to sign forms that would basically not allow them back into Gaza. So yes, we will let you leave to get the care you need, but you can't return. And we're just seeing a blockage of this system. So there have been countries that have been willing to pay for and take these medical evacuees. But even in, in some of these recipient countries, we're talking dozens of cases, maybe hundreds in a few. We need thousands of cases here. And also, at the same time, we need to think about what rebuilding the health system in Gaza looks like. So we don't need to engage in this, you know, medical permit system as, as broadly. Now that, I don't think we'll

• 2:23:26Speaker 06

  see that anytime soon. So Israel uses its control of the territories to affect health conditions inside, not just the health system, but also, as I said, sewage, lack of electricity, a lack of nutritious food. Then it controls the process that Palestinians have to use to leave to get care, even if it is not Israel where they are going to get the care, even if Egypt is willing to accept them, or Italy is willing to accept them, or the UAE, or whoever. Ultimately, this is an Israel permit process. And this has been a situation, again, since especially the blockade started in 2006 in Gaza. And we have long argued that this is unjust, but to put someone's health in the hands of an occupying power.

• 2:24:10Speaker 06

  And what we, what we saw over the years was not just denials going up of the need for these permits, but delays such that people are missing appointments, people are not getting timely care, and people are dying while waiting for services. So this has long been a really unjust process. And now we're kind of seeing the inevitable, you know, outcome of not challenging that process, the impunity that Israel has had in controlling basically every aspect of Palestinian health. And now we have people who are dying while waiting for chemotherapy. It's really inhumane. I think, Ali, some of us who like, you know, follow this more closely, at this point, it's like ridiculous how accustomed we have become to the news item that says,

• 2:24:55Speaker 06

  this person died at a checkpoint waiting to go to the hospital. But this, this is, this on a massive scale. It's truly dystopian, the degree to which Palestinians have no control over any part of their lives. It's heartbreaking and dystopian. Also in December, you wrote about how Israel suspended 37 humanitarian groups, including the Norwegian Refugee Council, the IRC, and these groups provided more than half of Gaza's food assistance and supported the hospitals as well, if I, if I understand correctly.

• 2:25:38Speaker 06

  So what justification did Israel give for suspending these humanitarian groups? And what is really going on here? So Israel has used the same justification that it has used basically for every restriction that it has placed on Palestinian life, which is this kind of blanket, unquestionable, 100% urgent Necessary security needs. So all of this, the checkpoints, the permit system, the incarceration of Palestinians, the, I mean, all of it, this whole system is justified by Israel, again, and its allies as this kind of, we need this for security. And so we have seen that with humanitarian organizations as well. Now, I won't get too into the preamble of this, but even before this new registration rules

• 2:26:23Speaker 06

  for humanitarian organizations, Israel has been working very hard to whittle away the power and access that humanitarian organizations have, perhaps most notably to your audience in UNRWA, which it has been discrediting, delegitimizing for decades. And because, you know, UNRWA is, for all its flaws, an organization that does recognize the rights of Palestinians to return to their homeland. And so Israel kind of, you know, placed all these accusations on UNRWA that members were aligned with October 7th or participated in October 7th. It caused a lot of countries to cut funding. Now, independent investigations have since found that, of course, these accusations

• 2:27:06Speaker 06

  were completely unfounded in most cases. And at the very least, did not justify kind of dismantling the entire organization. But as it has happened many times, nothing really was done. I mean, this kind of happens. People say, well, gee, that's not fair. And then everyone just kind of moves on. So the inevitable has happened, which is now Israel, again, an occupying power, which is not in debate, according to international law, is trying to impose new restrictions on humanitarian organizations who are working, particularly in the Gaza Strip. And part of what they are requiring is the name and address of every local worker that works at these agencies. Now, let's think for two seconds

• 2:27:50Speaker 06

  about why these agencies may not want to engage in that. Humanitarian and health workers have been killed in their homes by bombs with their families there. Aid convoys that have been clearly marked, probably your audience is very familiar with the World Central Kitchen convoy and that kind of infamous image of this van with the logo on it with a bomb right next to it. And so many of these organizations said, we're not going to be able to do that. We're not going to do that. But we're essentially, you're asking us to give you all the personal information of our staff. Now, Israel had initially said, if you don't comply with these by March, at the time that I wrote that piece, then they would be deregistered. We've since seen many organizations

• 2:28:33Speaker 06

  come out and say that they would not participate. Some have. So we have seen some compliance by some organizations. And of course, their argument is always, well, we need access and this is what we have to do for the access. So we have seen some delays in Israel's courts as to actual implementation of this. And organizations like UNRWA and others that have a heavy local Palestinian staff presence on the ground, they don't need internationals to get entry permits, which Israel is blocking. And we've seen this increase in recent months. Basically foreigners of all types, including foreign ministers who are trying to enter the West Bank, let alone Gaza, are being turned away. But we have seen those organizations

• 2:29:17Speaker 06

  are still functional to some level. But I have heard whispers and, you know, people are very, very concerned about what this means for the future of these organizations as it relates to their work with Palestinians. Local staff need to be paid. They need to be sure that they're safe. They need to have the equipment and resources that they need to help people. And so, again, Israel creates rules and then basically says, you have to submit to these rules or you won't be able to do what you need to do, what you're tasked to do and what you had previously been permitted to do. Again, the rules themselves are unquestioned. Again, we saw some condemnations of this, but primarily from the humanitarian organizations themselves. We saw quite a strong statement early on,

• 2:30:01Speaker 06

  signed by many of them, that said, this is completely unacceptable. But unfortunately, the global powers and the funders of these organizations have not meaningfully pushed back on this. Now, we're seeing a lot of upheaval, and I won't go too much into this, in the Israeli Supreme Court. And of course, Israel has elections coming up. So a lot of these processes have been kind of delayed and put on hold. So we're really interested, to say the least, as to how a lot of this unfolds after Israel's elections. Correct me if I'm wrong with this, because obviously this is not my area of expertise. But I was at a meeting with the Commissioner General of UNRWA recently. Mm-hmm. I mean, let me, before I ask the question, also tell the listeners, without bearing the lead, the reason they wanted to dismantle UNRWA

• 2:30:45Speaker 06

  is because it keeps alive this, or they think it keeps alive this issue of the right of return, as if like, that is a right that can disappear if UNRWA disappears. Now, that said, UNRWA has been under attack. And like you said, they've attempted to dismantle it in a variety of ways. But based on what I heard at that meeting, UNRWA does comply with the state of Israel. UNRWA does provide lists and fires people based on Israeli suspicions. And at least this is what I got out of that meeting. Maybe I misunderstood the degree of coordination. Yes, so we could have a whole other episode, right? About critique. About UNRWA. Yeah, and that would be a whole interesting conversation. But UNRWA has, rightfully so,

• 2:31:30Speaker 06

  been critiqued by Palestinians. So when you look at camps and they're really underdeveloped, overcrowded, very, you know, dusty, very thin streets. And then you look at the UNRWA school, big, shiny. The foreign staff that are coming in to overlook these schools and hospitals are paid much higher salaries than the Palestinian staff. There's a whole host of arguments about UNRWA. And it's important to remember that when UNRWA kind of was founded in the late 1940s to deal with this new and expectedly short-term Palestinian refugee problem, at the same time, there was another, you know, kind of strain that was meant to deal with the political side. So UNRWA was never meant to be a political actor.

• 2:32:13Speaker 06

  It was only meant to kind of provide relief in these new camps that had sprung up, that went from tents to buildings to basically towns. And so in some ways, they are critiqued for something that is not their mandate. They are a relief organization. And so as long as Palestinian refugees need relief, their argument is, we're going to give the relief. Someone else needs to work out the political side. And we can, again, argue about how that relief and how humanitarian ecosystem as a whole has kind of enabled Israel's actions and made it so that Israel does not have to comply with its obligations as an occupying power to provide food, to provide medicine, to not transfer populations, for example, from occupied territory to Israeli jails.

• 2:32:58Speaker 06

  We can have a conversation about that. And UNRWA is very publicly, I would say, conservative when it comes to critiquing the Israeli government. So when you look at recent statements from organizations like Oxfam or even MSF, which typically really prioritize neutrality, even they have been really willing to say now, you know, they've used words like genocide. This is ridiculous. Yes, this is ridiculous. This is a complete affront to the entire infrastructure of humanitarianism as we developed it after World War II. UNRWA is much more conservative with its statements. And again, it claims that its priority is access. It is the biggest service provider for health and education in the Gaza Strip. And it is one of the biggest in the West Bank. So, you know, it's this kind of catch 22

• 2:33:43Speaker 06

  that the Palestinians that depend on those services are in. Now, as far as I know, because UNRWA is in the UN system, their argument is that they do not have to be subject to the same restrictions that Israel would place on non-UN humanitarian organizations. And recently, we've seen other Israeli activities, such as they bulldoze the UNRWA headquarters in East Jerusalem. Like, they are trying, both bureaucratically, administratively, and physically, to kind of remove this entity. But as far as I know, and things change very quickly on this, they did not comply with the new registration details. That said, they did really internalize these accusations that Israel had levied against them after October 7th. They did fire some staff.

• 2:34:27Speaker 06

  They, in the opinion of many, did not forcefully defend their staff as much as they could have. And when you talk to people that work with or work in UNRWA, again, they say, we are just trying to get through this period and maintain as much of an infrastructure as we can. And they have been through ups and downs before. I don't know if they've been through downs that are this down at any point. You know, the past, especially since the first Trump administration, we've seen really targeted attacks against UNRWA, which the Biden administration continued. But yes, it is undoubtedly, UNRWA is not as vocal in terms of defending its staff, in terms of making political proclamations, in terms of, you know,

• 2:35:11Speaker 06

  just what we would kind of hope that one of the primary actors that is tasked with protecting a very vulnerable population would do. I mean, defending its own mandate. Right, defending its own mandate, right. To provide relief. And it's kind of constantly, and so much of the international community is kind of constantly playing by Israel's rules. Israel makes an accusation, makes a rule. And instead of being like, that accusation is insane or this rule is based in nothing, people just start arguing about, well, how can we get against that rule? Or how do we defend against that accusation? And this has been the playbook for a really long time. I think UNRWA has not been very effective in defending against that. Again, I think they would probably argue, that's not what we're supposed to do. There's supposed to be political entities

• 2:35:56Speaker 06

  that defend against that. And we have seen some of the funders that pulled funding initially after October 7th have reinstated funding. That said, UNRWA is in a very precarious position. And I and others are really interested in seeing in five years, what will UNRWA look like? Yeah. Will it be an organization kind of in name only? You know, there's so much uncertainty, I think, coming up. And they are a huge part of that. Because if their services go, we suddenly have hundreds of thousands of people with no school, no hospital, no clinics, and a lot of Palestinians that work for UNRWA with no jobs and no salary and to contribute to the already insane unemployment rate

• 2:36:40Speaker 06

  and, you know, kind of economic doom spiral that the West Bank and Gaza are in right now. So it's a really complicated nuanced issue. And there's just so much uncertainty. I couldn't even begin to speculate on what. What comes next? Yeah, like you said, there's so much to talk about on that, on that topic and on Gaza as a whole. I just felt like despite how much they comply, you know, there's, there's no winning. No winning. That's it. Yeah, that's the main takeaway. Yeah, Israel isn't trying to cooperate, obviously, like. Right. Yeah. So let's move on to the West Bank now. Sure. I've talked in a recent episode about how the West Bank is being ethnically cleansed. So listeners can refer to that episode if they want more info. But in July, you wrote for the Arab Center Washington about specifically the use of sexual violence

• 2:37:25Speaker 06

  in both territories. But let's, you know, since we're talking about the West Bank, how is sexual violence being used in the West Bank right now? How is it being used and by whom and what is it accomplishing? Yeah, this is a tough topic, you know, and that was a really tough piece to write just because I think part of what we as kind of Palestine-focused scholars or people, even just observers of the situation, there are just so many pieces and mechanisms of displacement and ethnic cleansing utilized by Israel. So my primary lens that I use to look at that is degradation, de-development and destruction of the health system. But I think, you know, what we've seen, especially since October 7th

• 2:38:08Speaker 06

  and all of these accounts that are coming out of Israeli prisons, is that sexual violence is wielded as a tool of essentially abuse and torture, primarily of Palestinian prisoners. Now, as early as the Nakba, there were reports in villages that were being kind of raided by Zionist militias of sexual violence of women and girls as a way to kind of show power. I mean, that's, that's really the core of sexual violence. It is a, is it, it is a way to show power. It is a way to induce powerlessness. It is a way to say, I can do this to you and there's nothing you can do about it. And I'm going to do it publicly. And so there are many reports from the Nakba and the, the years afterwards that indicated that sexual violence was being used.

• 2:38:53Speaker 06

  And then the women, in some cases, were being paraded around Jerusalem as kind of a warning to other Palestinians. So it's been a part of this ecosystem, you know, for almost a century. So what we've seen lately is many Palestinian prisoners, male and female, have reported sexual violence under Israeli guards. There have been, in fact, there was, I'm sure your audience is familiar with that famous video from, I believe, the State de Mon prison of a Palestinian male prisoner who was being sexually assaulted. He needed medical care for his injuries. And there has been many reports that, along with other forms of torture and medical neglect,

• 2:39:34Speaker 06

  so lack of clean food, lack of showers, lack of bathrooms, lack of care for medical needs, that sexual abuse and violence have been used against Palestinian prisoners. This includes stripping people publicly, including women. This includes sexual assault in some cases. Sometimes it includes threatening sexual assault upon people's families that are back home if they don't collaborate or cooperate or give information. You know, it's, it's all used as a form of torture. And this is a very difficult issue to discuss throughout the Middle East. We, we have unfortunately very little good comprehensive data on incidents of sexual violence and assault.

• 2:40:16Speaker 06

  Much of this comes from firsthand testimonies of those who have experienced it. But there has been an undeniable increase in those reports. I mean, Israel has imprisoned thousands of Palestinians just since October 7th, many of whom, no charge, you know, kind of under administrative detention. And there is no access to these prisoners by the Red Cross or others. Sometimes they won't even allow their lawyers or their families to talk to them. So all of this is kind of happening in secret. And it's, it's those lucky prisoners who are released or have some contact with the outside world that are able to kind of tell people what is happening. And so we've seen this increased brazenness with Israeli soldiers.

• 2:41:00Speaker 06

  They are kind of even boasting about their crimes online, posting videos, posting pictures, posting, you know, what, what they see as kind of funny stories about how they're treating Palestinian prisoners. And we're seeing sexual violence reported by them as well. So it's not just the prisoners reporting this. The perpetrators are also saying, yeah, we're doing this. No one can do anything. I think much of that has gotten lost in the conversation of what's happened to Palestinians because, you know, there's so much overt things happening, you know, the destruction of Gaza, the genocide, the settler violence throughout the West Bank. But the settler violence has also taken a tone of including sexual violence and abuse.

• 2:41:43Speaker 06

  There was this story that I, that I recount in the piece of a man who was sexually assaulted by settlers, then kind of paraded through his own village. So we are seeing this kind of tool of domination utilized more brazenly, more openly, more explicitly by both primarily Israeli prison guards and Israeli settlers. And again, there, the incentive structure is that you can do this and nothing is going to happen to you. And so in that kind of bubble of impunity, as we've warned about and, you know, many scholars have warned about and many observers and many Palestinians, the more you let them get away with crimes, even documented crimes,

• 2:42:26Speaker 06

  the more they are going to perpetuate these crimes and escalate. What, when we're in the escalation phase right now. Yeah, there's this dynamic of like, also even the threat of sexual violence is pushing Palestinian families to leave because they're worried about their children. They're worried about their. Exactly. So, yeah. It's really interesting because settler violence, you know, it can come in several forms. It can be very explicit. They attack or threaten you. They attack your car. They kill your livestock. They burn your fields. They, you know, spread garbage on your crops. Kunk water. Exactly. There's a million mechanisms. And what we're seeing lately is that added to that list is either sexual violence

• 2:43:09Speaker 06

  or, as you said, the threat of sexual violence. And in that piece, I recount how some families said, that was the line for us. We were willing to stay. We were going to stay. We could deal with the physical attacks. But once it got to the point where I could no longer sleep because I was, I felt feared for my mother or my daughter or my sister or, you know, people in my family at the risk of this sexual violence that was threatened, we had to go. And so you can see how it is a tool of the ethnic cleansing that you pointed out because it is the way to, without actually even doing, you know, enacting the violence, you can force people to leave their homes.

• 2:43:50Speaker 06

  And what happens after people leave their homes is settlers immediately take over that land. And we've seen that happen over and over again. Yeah. And, and it's not, it's not an empty threat because like you said, they get away with it. So if they did enact the violence, so like these Palestinian families are making. Rational choices. Rational choices, exactly. It's just such a hard topic. Yeah, it is. And just to note, we've barely even scratched the surface because so, we know that because of, of, you know, religious and cultural context, many people who experience this are simply too ashamed to share. Yeah. They certainly won't report to a researcher or even a field worker, even if they're a local Palestinian and this happened to them.

• 2:44:34Speaker 06

  So undoubtedly, this is happening to people and not being reported at a much wider scale than these publicly reported stories. Yeah, absolutely. I always think also like, first of, in the fall, the second in the fall, the like, sexual violence was used and they weaponized that shame. They weaponized that secrecy. Right. And now we're just seeing it at such a scale that there are some brave people who are ringing it to our attention. That's a great point. It's become so unavoidable and overt that people are even willing to kind of overlook or overcome that shame and stigma because I think one thing that Palestinians have been trying to say forever is, look what they're doing to us.

• 2:45:16Speaker 06

  Please just look, at least acknowledge that you see that it's happening. And there's been a million instances of that and a million different, you know, ways that Palestinians have tried to tell their story. And this is now unfortunately, an horrific part of that story.

• 2:45:43Speaker 06

  Finally, for the publication Current History. Yeah. In an essay titled, When Health Is The Target: Violence, Restriction, and Neglect in Palestine, you examine the systematic degradation of the healthcare infrastructure that's long been used, as we've been saying, like as a political and military tool against Palestinians. And you describe a lot of the tactics we just talked about. But could you explain to us specifically in this last part, what de-development means and how Israel is pursuing that goal? Yes, definitely. And so de-development is kind of been, especially as it refers to.

• 2:46:16Speaker 06

  Specifically Palestinians, and especially in the Gaza Strip, was a term coined by political economist Sarah Roy, which described not an underdevelopment, which you would see with, you know, lack of money, lack of financial ability to build better things, to do more, but an active de-development, which basically placed a ceiling on the level of development that Palestinians had. So it wasn't suddenly about how much aid was coming in or how educated Palestinians are. Do you have the specialists that can do this or that? Do you have college-educated people? As we know, Palestinians are among the most educated populations in the Middle East. Lack of skill was never an issue.

• 2:46:58Speaker 06

  But through primarily this system of movement restrictions, import restrictions, preventing the movement of people in and out of Palestinian territory, Israel has been able to de-develop. First, Dr. Roy referred to this in the Palestinian economy. So Palestinians used to have a, you know, it was a small territory, but a relatively important role in, you know, importing olives and olive oil and olive soap. Gaza had its strawberries, you know, Yafa had its oranges. It was a country, it was a place, I suppose, that was active in terms of a global market. And through first the Nakba and the establishment of the State of Israel, but especially through the occupation,

• 2:47:44Speaker 06

  and then, of course, through the economic restrictions of Oslo, Israel has been able to essentially, with a metaphorical dial, control how the Palestinian economy could grow. And by preventing, you know, collecting taxes, withholding taxes, preventing import of goods. So, you know, you want to be an entrepreneur. How are you going to import the goods that you're going to sell? How are you going to export the goods that you create? And we started seeing this across sectors, the agricultural sector. Palestinians couldn't import the fertilizer and the seeds that they needed. They were, you know, the land was getting smaller and smaller. So what we're seeing in the Palestinian healthcare system is this same de-development phenomenon.

• 2:48:28Speaker 06

  How it's enacted in the health sector is in a multitude of ways. So they prevent literal building materials from entering the territories, particularly Gaza. I mean, we're talking cement, we're talking wires, pipes. They prevent import of those materials that would build the infrastructure that we need. But of course, infrastructure is not all the health system needs. You need educated staff and providers. They have limited the types, especially in the Gaza Strip, of specialties that medical schools can teach because they simply don't have the equipment or they don't have the staff. Then they prevent Palestinians from being able to leave to get that training and then return to the Gaza Strip. So part of what has been so horrific to witness in Gaza

• 2:49:12Speaker 06

  is not just the killing of health workers, but so many of them who had experience, who were specialists, who had gotten training in Switzerland or Saudi Arabia or somewhere, come back to Gaza. Now, what we're seeing in Gaza is of the remaining healthcare system, a lot of it is new graduates or trainees. You have lost decades upon decades of experience, of wisdom, heads of departments, deans of medical schools. You know, these people that kind of had the infrastructural knowledge and know-how and knew how to make things work and knew how to connect people together. You strip all that away, you have a quote-unquote "health system", but it's very limited in what it can do.

• 2:49:53Speaker 06

  In the Gaza Strip, you had limitations on import of PET scanners and CT scanners because of the argument that Hamas could use materials from that equipment to dot-dot-dot, security risk, right? Don't ask questions. We've seen a limited amount of import in the West Bank. In the West Bank, we also see destruction of ambulances, attacks on paramedics. Paramedics of the Palestinian Red Crescent are now wearing bulletproof vests. We're seeing, as you noted, ambulances and other people stopped at checkpoints. There have been hundreds of births by birthing mothers at checkpoints who are on their way to the hospital. I include, as part of the de-development of the health sector, the kind of environmental degradation.

• 2:50:34Speaker 06

  So health includes your ability to eat good, nutritious, clean food. It includes your ability to drink water. You know, the West Bank is under significant water restrictions at all times, essentially. And in the Gaza Strip, there's very little clean water, even prior to the genocide. Something like 95% of the water was non-potable and had to go through different treatment facilities. You know, sewage in the streets, lack of public services. I mean, I could really go on and on. So through its system of deprivation and restriction, Israel has essentially created a healthcare system that is never operating at 100%. So even when the WHO talks about fully functional Palestinian hospitals, there was still so much they could not do

• 2:51:19Speaker 06

  that their colleagues in Jordan or Lebanon or Syria or any other country even in the region can do, simply because they can get the tools, they can get the specialists, they can get the skills. It's not a matter of, again, more money. We don't need more humanitarian agencies on the ground. It's Israeli restrictions that are purposefully kind of creating this environment where there is a ceiling to how well the health system can do. And so the kind of pressure valve for that was the medical permits. So a huge part of the Palestinian Authority's budget towards the Health Ministry was paying for Palestinians to leave Palestine and in some cases, get care in Israel. So, I mean, think about the logic of that.

• 2:52:03Speaker 06

  You have a struggling health system and sometimes your best option for patients is to Pay your occupier. Exactly. Pay the occupying power or pay the Jordanians. You know, Jordan has an entire corridor for Palestinian patients because it takes so many of them. Similar, Egypt has the specific hospitals that are well-known for taking Palestinian patients. Much of the East Jerusalem Hospital Network, which used to be the heart, the beating heart of the Palestinian healthcare system, was severed from the West Bank, especially after the Second Intifada. And now Palestinians, even that live in Ramallah or Bethlehem, that are, what, 45 minutes away? It takes weeks or months of waiting to get a permit. And then it's not just you that needs a permit.

• 2:52:48Speaker 06

  Let's say you're sick. Maybe you want your partner to come with you or maybe you want your mother to come with you. Or maybe your child is sick and they need you, of course, to come with you. Israel also controls the companion permits and sometimes that is an entirely separate process. And then you need a permit for every visit. So there is not a single aspect of healthcare, whether it's in a Palestinian hospital, in Palestinian territory broadly speaking, or needing to leave Palestine to get care somewhere else that Israel has not actively de-developed through deprivation and restriction. And so that is what we talk about when we say, it's not just, oh, this is a war-torn country and if only they had more aid, if only they had more this and that, things would be better. No, this is a Policy.

• 2:53:33Speaker 06

  Artificial situation, policy created by the Israeli state. And, I mean, I guess fortunately for us, they've only become more explicit about saying what their goals are, which is this, what they're calling voluntary immigration, but is essentially kicking Palestinians out of the land so that they can take it. And they have utilized every sector, education, agriculture, economy, and health, to enact that goal. And by, you know, public surveys and by what we're seeing, it is successful. There have been hundreds of villages ethnically cleansed in the West Bank in just the past few years. More than, what, 60% of the Gaza Strip is now basically inaccessible to people in Gaza.

• 2:54:14Speaker 06

  And we have seen polls of younger Palestinians who are saying, I can't do this. I can't live here anymore. If an opportunity comes for me to go somewhere else, to study somewhere else, to get a job somewhere else, I'm going to take it. And this is the voluntary quote-unquote "immigration" that the Israeli authorities are talking about, making life so difficult such that anything you need is a challenge. Every journey when you leave your house is a question. Will I come home? How long will it take? You know, my son wants to go to a wedding in a neighboring village. What will happen to him? I'm having, you know, cramping while I'm pregnant. Should I go to the hospital and risk it? Or should I just stay home and see what happens? I mean, just think about like the daily stress and decision Palestinians. The grind, yeah.

• 2:54:59Speaker 06

  It's unimaginable and, you know, I haven't even talked about mental health yet with you. I know, I mean. That's a whole other aspect of it. We need you back on a different episode, just like talk through like every single aspect of this because it's like, I am Palestinian. I was born in Like, I lived there. Yeah. And I still can't fathom how bad it has gotten. Yeah. I don't understand how people are are living. I don't understand. They've been under attack to this to this level. Yeah, I will say, you know, my family is primarily in the north in and around Nablus. And I mean, some of the elders in my family, you know, they, and I've said this many times lately, they lived through 67. They remember the jets flying over the village. They lived through the first Intifada.

• 2:55:43Speaker 06

  They lived through Oslo. They lived through the second Intifada. Without exception, they are reporting that now is the worst. The worst. I can remember. And for the first time, because as you know, it's like a very Palestinian, you know, the Samud, right? This, I will, I would rather stay and die on this land than go somewhere else. That is like such a. A rallying cry, yeah. Cultural thing they grow up with. But for the first time, they're saying, I don't know if we can expect the next generations to do what we did. No one's getting paid. And if you are getting paid, there's very little to buy. And if you can buy something, you worry about going to the store. I mean, it's, it's every level of life. And imagine raising a child, trying to go to work.

• 2:56:28Speaker 06

  And, you know, the settlers, just the knowledge that they are, are out there. People are so terrified of going anywhere. I mean, not even leaving the village or the town, leaving your house. If you live near a settlement, leaving your house is a threat. Yeah. And they'll come to your house, too. Like, don't worry about it. Right. You stay in your house, they'll also come. Right. Oh, yeah, it's very bleak. I apologize that we ended on such a bleak note, but there's, this is really the reality facing Palestinians. No, it's important. Yeah. And I really appreciate your time breaking all this down for us, that this is such a crisis on so many levels. But yes, like health, like human health and. Yeah. The human condition is so under attack in both territories. But thank you so much, Yado, for, for your time.

• 2:57:13Speaker 06

  I really appreciate it. No, thank you for having me and for asking, you know, I think such detailed questions so that we can, I mean, I feel like we've barely scratched the surface, but I hopefully your audience has a good look at just how holistic and comprehensive the current emergency is. You know, this is. Yeah. We're past the point of, is this a humanitarian crisis? What is the political solution? This is an existential crisis for Palestinians at this point. And what happens in the next few years will, I think, really determine what happens to us as a people. Yeah, no, I agree and hope that it isn't too late. Yeah. Thank you again. Thank you for having me.

• 2:58:02Speaker 06

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• 2:58:32Speaker 01

  I'm Melissa Jelton, and in my new podcast, What Happened to Her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled a suicide.

• 2:58:44Speaker 00

  She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety.

• 2:58:50Speaker 01

  Stories of survival.

• 2:58:52Speaker 03

  The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck, because by all rights, I should be dead.

• 2:58:59Speaker 01

  Cases that everyone else called closed.

• 2:59:02Speaker 00

  They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence.

• 2:59:06Speaker 01

  These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. No child should ever experience that. And we were babies.

• 2:59:18Speaker 03

  She did all of these brave things and came out and spoke about it, and he got a year. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform.

• 2:59:30Speaker 01

  Listen to What Happened to Her on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You broke me. You do not deserve happiness. I'm Andrea Gunning. On this season of Betrayal, we meet Carl Bryant. Carl thought he was living a normal, drama-free life until the messages started. You will have hell to pay. For nine months, someone infiltrated every aspect of Carl's life, threatening to ruin him. Cyberstalking, swatting, extortion, impersonation. And then the text threats escalated. Someone's not going to make it out of this alive.

• 3:00:13Speaker 05

  Sheriff Department! It's playing out in real life, not just on the phone.

• 3:00:18Speaker 01

  Every piece of evidence pointed to one man. But every piece of evidence was a lie. He was not going to stop unless we stopped him. Listen to Betrayal, Season Six, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 3:00:37Speaker 04

  This is Daryl Bell.

• 3:00:39Speaker 06

  And I'm Kadim Harison.

• 3:00:40Speaker 04

  And together, we're the voices behind the newest podcast on the Black Effect Podcast Network, A Different Worldview with Daryl and Kadim. Each Thursday, we're rewatching an episode of the show that changed our lives and so many others, A Different World.

• 3:00:55Speaker 06

  We're sharing never-before-heard stories from behind the scenes and sitting down with other stars from the show to hear their unique perspectives.

• 3:01:02Speaker 04

  We're also discussing the arts world and pop culture headlines with plenty of laughs along the way. We did a movie called School Days. And me being.

• 3:01:11Speaker 06

  A trained actor.

• 3:01:12Speaker 04

  You got, you get the first shot.

• 3:01:14Speaker 06

  And I'm the trained actor.

• 3:01:15Speaker 04

  Go ahead.

• 3:01:16Speaker 06

  And you being the dude that says, hey, Spike, on the street, you saw him coming out of the bathroom or something, and said, hey, Spike.

• 3:01:23Speaker 04

  Coming out of the bathroom.

• 3:01:24Speaker 06

  I might have made that up. So don't miss the start of something great.

• 3:01:28Speaker 04

  Listen to A Different Worldview with Daryl and Kadim every Thursday from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 3:01:40Speaker 05

  Vampires, minotars, 12-foot skeletons, and apartment doors? Believe it or not, we're talking about romance. It's a monster romance extravaganza on Radio 831, a romance podcast. So join me, Sanjana Baskar, and my co-host Tyler McCall, as we dive into the strange, horny, and wonderfully thoughtful world of falling for something not quite human. I give Tyler a crash course in monster romance, and the Villain Edit author, Rosie Dannen, joins to talk vampires, blood play, and finding tenderness in a monstrous love interest. Then, sentient object romance expert, Racy Delgado, takes us even deeper into the genre. Finally, I assign Tyler some homework, to read C. M. Niscosta's Morning Glory: Milking Farm.

• 3:02:22Speaker 05

  And it's a doozy, but spoiler alert, Tyler emerges ready for more monster tales, because sometimes, non-human romances can tell us the most about our desire, our fantasies, and what we actually want. Listen to Radio 831, a romance podcast, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 3:02:44Speaker 04

  This is It Could Happen Here: Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world, and what this means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today, I'm joined by Robert Evans, James Stoute, and Mia Wong. The whole gang back together. This episode, we are covering the week of September 30th to October 7th. James, I think you can take it away with your barrage of news.

• 3:03:10Speaker 05

  All right. So, yeah, we've got a lot of small things this week. Another person has died in ICE custody, making this the deadliest year on record, with 37 reported deaths so far. Of course, it's only October. Yeah, like, we're entering the final quarter of the year, like, this, this week. Julian Kurochurata died in Louisiana after being transported from the Ridgewood Correctional Center. The Ridgewood Correctional Center has a long and dark history of neglect and even homicide. I've linked to an article about that in the show notes. This week, the president suggested in a rally that it would be acceptable for him to allow Iran to bomb San Diego and Los Angeles.

• 3:03:50Speaker 04

  A small price to pay.

• 3:03:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, I remain neutral on the issue of Los Angeles, but we're not having that in San Diego. He's not so much remarkable. He always says crazy shit, right? His rallies, he just goes on a wild one. But like, what's remarkable, I think, is the response of the administration.

• 3:04:05Speaker 04

  It is itself a kind of interesting thing for a president to say.

• 3:04:08Speaker 05

  It is a remarkable choice in the month before an election.

• 3:04:13Speaker 03

  It's a little bit high. It's a small price to pay for keeping the world safe, keeping our country safe. They can take out a city. Let them take, let it, let them take out Los Angeles. Let them take out San Diego. That's, this is a very small price to pay.

• 3:04:29Speaker 04

  The cheering is what's also very interesting.

• 3:04:32Speaker 05

  Yeah. I'm looking at the faces of the people immediately behind him.

• 3:04:36Speaker 04

  They're turning to each other.

• 3:04:38Speaker 05

  Yeah, they all look a little confused. I'm gonna read a post from RapidResponse47. It's one of the White House associated Twitter accounts. The LA Times had said that like the Trump had suggested it would be okay to to take out Los Angeles or San Diego because that is a phrase that he said. Quote, "No, he didn't, you buffoons. He was saying the US is fighting to stop Iran from having the ability to take out LA and San Diego with a nuclear weapon, which they would if they had the chance." That's not true.

• 3:05:04Speaker 04

  That that's just not what Trump said. That's just very clearly. And like this isn't, you know, this isn't taken out of context. He was, he was saying that if Iran nuked Los Angeles or San Diego, that would be a small price to pay for us to beat Iran, for us to then, you know, like destroy Iran. That that's what he's saying.

• 3:05:22Speaker 05

  He was previously talking about gas prices. Yes, there's no other context. Like, he was saying it would be awesome if this liberal city was wiped off the face of the earth because it would let us do what we're gonna do already. We also have like most of the Pacific Fleet, a massive Marine Corps base, fucking nuclear submarines. Like, it would be very inconvenient for the United States if we lost San Diego. But yeah, there's this line in 1984, "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears." It was a final, most essential command.

• 3:05:48Speaker 04

  No, he didn't, you buffoons.

• 3:05:51Speaker 05

  Yeah, people love to be fucking wrong about George Orwell. It is the bane of my existence. This is an excellent time to be quoting 1984 by George Orwell because this is the kind of shit it is about. Moving on, a lawsuit in Texas has stopped the border wall construction, not just in Big Ben National Park, but also in the region at large.

• 3:06:09Speaker 04

  Oh, wow.

• 3:06:10Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. People seem a little confused about the implications of this. Border wall construction is still ongoing in other places. There are other areas where there are still waivers for land protections, which they're still using. And I think it's worth noting like the ultimate victory is a temporary pause in the wall, right? The ultimate victory is the the wall comes down and the land is restored as best it can be. Like, this wall is still doing damage. The construction has still done damage. And I think sometimes people get a little lost in the sauce, but it's still a good thing. United States troops have completed their withdrawal from Iraq, leaving the Kurdistan region of Iraq especially vulnerable without the air defense that it's relied on so heavily. Since February, there have been a thousand drone and missile attacks on Kurdistan.

• 3:06:55Speaker 05

  Following this withdrawal, there was an Islamic State attack in Kirkuk last night. It looks like they attacked a PMF position and killed one person. But they they already claim responsibility for destroying a thermal camera.

• 3:07:07Speaker 04

  Kingston, the PMF is?

• 3:07:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, a Popular Mobilization Forces, like militia that was mobilized to fight the Islamic State. Right. In in the fighting against ISIS and Mosul, you had like two primary, like non-state militias. There was the Peshmerga, which is like the Kurdish militias from the north. And then you had the the Popular Mobilization Forces, which were the Iranian-backed guys. And the dudes you wanted to avoid when you were there, to be honest. They were, they were not the the least trustworthy of the of the Iraqi state forces. Yeah, some of those guys were on a wild one. Yeah. And remain on a wild one to this day in some cases. Yeah. Oh, boy. I mean, I know Iraq is supposed to be doing some sort of regularization there, but they keep pushing back the deadline of that. It's a big ask. It is. Yeah, that's a lot of people with guns who don't want to kick them back.

• 3:07:53Speaker 05

  Well, and the Iraqi state has never, in its modern incarnation, managed a functional military without huge numbers of like non-state but state-aligned militias. Yeah. And so it's just a massive change for them to make. Yeah, right. They, the monopoly they have on legitimate violence is very tenuous if at all, right? Like, it's just, it's just not, it's not the way that it is in the US. It's certainly not a monopoly. The Iraqi state is like the Microsoft of having like a legitimate.

• 3:08:23Speaker 04

  It's like an oligopoly.

• 3:08:25Speaker 05

  There's like an apple out there. There's an Android. You've got Samsung up in Kurdistan. Yeah, yeah, that's a good analogy. Yeah. Well, I want to move to Spain, right? There's been a huge series of protests in Spain following the eviction of an 87-year-old woman named Maria del Carmen Abascal. She's known as Marie Carmen. It's pretty common to contract your name. Yeah. People began occupying the Puerta del Sol in Madrid. Many of you will remember this as one of the the very early seeds of the occupying movement, right? Or of the movement that became known as the occupying movement. Pedro Sanchez attempted to pass a reform package, but he ran up against right-wing opposition in parliament, which he then dissolved and called a snap general election.

• 3:09:08Speaker 05

  He has now proposed a new set of steps, which would need to be ratified by an interim legislature because parliament has been dissolved, right? In Barcelona over the weekend, there were huge protests. Cops ordered people out of the street. The protesters in Gracia, where I used to live, filled the streets with burning trash and threw stuff at the cops instead of leaving. You love to see it. It's so funny to me that like I can picture the exact street that is being filled with burning trash because I have been there several times where that has been happening. The circle of life continues on the rambler. People use construction materials to try and hold like arguably one of the most iconic boulevards on the planet.

• 3:09:45Speaker 05

  It's ironic, this is happening 90 years and a couple of months after Catalan workers fought the country's army and defeated it in the same streets. Moving on to crocodile news, Florida crocodile. Did you guys know they have crocodiles in Florida?

• 3:10:00Speaker 04

  What? No.

• 3:10:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, apparently. Yeah, I've heard from Florida men and their their allies on this one. And it does seem they have crocodiles.

• 3:10:08Speaker 04

  James, I, I have heard.

• 3:10:10Speaker 05

  We've, we've all heard from the Floridians. Yeah, thank you. And let's put people in quotation marks there. We're talking Florida.

• 3:10:19Speaker 04

  Hey, okay, the the Floridian transgender's are cool.

• 3:10:24Speaker 05

  I, I wasn't no part of this.

• 3:10:24Speaker 05

  I'm not talking about that. I'm I'm talking about people from the northern part of Florida. Yeah, the Florida, Georgia. People in quotation marks. Well, unfortunately, there is one less crocodile in Florida now. Yeah. The crocodile has been found dead from lead poisoning. It got into a pool and started behaving weirdly and had this kind of foul smelling, I think, like vomit. And then they got it back into a canal and then they found it dead the next day. Did an autopsy and it had a bunch of lead in its stomach, 23 air rifle pellets and a fishing sinker. This is important because like this is a policy issue, right? Like specifically, the use of lead projectiles for hunting is something that's been prohibited in California and in like Condor.

• 3:11:09Speaker 05

  I don't think it's prohibited in Condor region. I think it is prohibited in Condor parts of Arizona, but it's also like a voluntary program where they'll pay for you to have copper monolithic ammunition. And there's been a whole lot of pushback on this recently. In Florida, I know a lot of people hunt iguanas with air rifles, but like this is a very direct causal relationship that we can point to from like lead to dead animal. I don't know how commonplace this is, but I thought it was interesting as a relatively rarer species. I do want to get into depth on this, on natural causes, but I'm gonna find some people to interview so we can be clear on like where the science stands on that. Finally, in the Strait of Hormuz, Hormuz news, Iran is once again attacking ships with anti-ship cruise missiles,

• 3:11:54Speaker 05

  things that they still have despite months and months and months of the US trying to bomb them. I think there have been six attacks since the UN General Assembly happened in late September that were according to this on Wednesday. It seems like they're taking along about one a day at a minute. So there might be, might be a couple more by the time you hear this.

• 3:12:11Speaker 04

  Also this week, Paramount has closed the $111 billion acquisition of Warner Brothers, forming a new conglomerate called Skydance, which is the Ellison Company that originally bought Paramount a few years back. So now both CNN and CBS are in control of the Ellison's. Ellison sent out a day one memo to all these new employees, which warned them, quote, "Integrating two companies will bring change, including difficult decisions that affect our workforce." Layoffs are obviously expected in the next few months.

• 3:12:52Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:12:52Speaker 04

  The state of California was able to secure concessions such as a promise to release about 30 movies a year for five years and a $5 million fund for independent movies.

• 3:13:02Robert Evans?

  Cool. That will fix it. Yeah, this will put a dent in obviously the absolute and total consolidation of media in general of all forms into the hands of an extremely small number of people who absolutely suck.

• 3:13:16Speaker 04

  This is the worst merger that I can like remember in my life. Like, is it the worst thing that I can like see and remember as a conscious living human? Like, the scale of this is is like absurd.

• 3:13:26Speaker 05

  It shouldn't be allowed. Yeah.

• 3:13:29Speaker 04

  No, it very clearly violates antitrust. If Lina Khan was in charge, this obviously wouldn't happen.

• 3:13:34Speaker 05

  No, they they would have the Navy SEALs at the Ellison compound. Yeah.

• 3:13:39Robert Evans?

  Hey, minimum viable 2028 program.

• 3:13:41Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:13:42Speaker 04

  No, breaking up this company should become a project that gets promoted by, you know, people like Khan and and us.

• 3:13:49Robert Evans?

  And if we're gonna have Navy SEALs, this is what you use them for.

• 3:13:52Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:13:53Speaker 04

  The anti-Ellison SEAL division.

• 3:13:55Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 3:13:56Speaker 05

  I will note that the very last Warner Brothers production as an independent studio was the movie Digger, which I've heard is actually pretty good. It is not doing well. It's a Catastrophic box office.

• 3:14:09Speaker 04

  Very divisive.

• 3:14:10Speaker 05

  Really good. I'm looking forward to seeing it.

• 3:14:11Speaker 04

  Very divisive film.

• 3:14:12Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:14:12Speaker 04

  Very divisive film.

• 3:14:13Speaker 05

  I'm not anti digger, but it is very funny that that is their last release is Tom Cruise's biggest box office bomb in a generation.

• 3:14:22Speaker 04

  Yeah. Obviously, David Zaslav has been in many ways a disaster for Warner Brothers and his, his reign of the company is partially what's led them to being acquired here.

• 3:14:33Speaker 05

  Uh huh.

• 3:14:34Speaker 04

  But Warner Brothers has put out a bunch of really interesting and good films the past few years and the current batch of executives promoted and fought for those. Movies like Sinners, movies like One Battle After Another. Those executives are already gone. Those executives are not going to be sticking around David Ellison's new Warner Brothers. So the people that brought you One Battle and Sinners are no longer at the helm.

• 3:15:01Speaker 05

  So I wanted to update everyone on what's been happening in Lucky. If you didn't listen last week, you can get the very basics, but I was there last week, not there now. A number of people had been defending a pair of cottonwood trees that had once been part of the stand of cottonwood trees that joined canopies over the border. But construction workers for Fisher Sand and Gravel had previously dropped three of them in their construction of the border wall, at which point someone had been sitting in the one remaining tree on the northern side. There's another tree which seems to be very close to or spanning the border, which had been sat in briefly by someone who'd come from the Mexican side before they came down.

• 3:15:42Speaker 05

  On the 5th of October, Border Patrol staged a huge raid on this camp. The camp, for what it's worth, is on private land. Generally, BP doesn't need a warrant to enter private land unless it's a domicile, if they're 25 miles or less from the border, which they were in this instance. So they raided the camp. They then came in with a cherry picker, pulled the person who was in the tree out of the tree, detained them, and then pushed over the tree with an excavator very, very quickly. They moved extremely fast to do this whole thing. They detained 10 people that day. I'm not quite sure what those people or if those people have been cited or charged yet. I'm still trying to get that information.

• 3:16:22Speaker 05

  The next day, five more people were detained and somebody began defending by sitting in it, the other tree, the tree that straddles the border perhaps, or the tree that people thought was in Mexico, but it's not exactly clear, like without seeing the border monuments, exactly where they line up. Like, the thickness of the line on a map is way too thick to have this kind of definition. And so currently, the other tree is still being defended. That doesn't mean the border wall construction is completely stopped. It seems they're working at a very frenzied pace. As we record, so Wednesday, they began working overnight on Tuesday night. And what they're doing now is it appears that they are building, so this is an area where they have double barrier, right? Two walls about 60 foot apart.

• 3:17:05Speaker 05

  One wall just inside the Roosevelt Reservation, and then one wall just inside the United States. And then there's a road between them that BP can drive, right? And it kind of, it cedes hundreds of acres of the United States to Border Patrol control, right? Most of it was public land in this case, right? Forest Service, or some of it's State Wildlife Refuge. Some of it, I think, BLM manages that Roosevelt Reservation, for what I can understand, because BLM posted notices that they were closing it last week. So what Border Patrol is now doing is building that northernmost wall first to prevent access to the southernmost wall. And it seems that they're doing this at a very frenzied pace. It seems like they might be skipping some of this, just from pictures I've seen, they

• 3:17:48Speaker 05

  might be skipping some of the usual smart wall fiber optic conduit that they would put in there and just trying to get up a barrier as quickly as they can, obviously to prevent people continuing to protest. The protest had the permission of landowners to be on their land, and their local sheriff had said that he wasn't going to be arresting any of the protesters. So BP decided to do it themselves after 71 days of that tree being defended. So that tree is now gone, but the other tree remains. So it's also very sweet that people have taken cuttings from the trees that were taken down, and those cuttings are already growing too, which is nice to see. Nature springs eternal. But yeah, I'm going to cover this in a two parter on natural causes.

• 3:18:32Speaker 05

  It will not be the Monday after you hear this, but it will be the Monday after that. And that'll be the first episode, and there'll be two episodes. So you'll have to wait to then to get the long version of this. Talking of long, we've got a long time without advertisements, which I know makes our listeners sad. Let's hear from Fisher Sand and Gravel.

• 3:19:00Robert Evans?

  So we mentioned earlier that there are large protests going on in Spain. There are also very, very large student protests going on in France right now. These started September 18th, where high school students, and this is an interesting development because most of the written history of student movements is about college students. These are high school students. And they have started en masse, blockading their schools and taking to the streets. These protests started in the Parisian suburbs. It is worth bearing in mind that French urban infrastructure is effectively the exact inversion of the way American infrastructure worked with white flight, where in, you know, in the US, you have like white people fleeing

• 3:19:45Robert Evans?

  the urban core into the suburbs. France has built the opposite, where working class and non-white people were forced into the suburbs because they were like not able to live in the urban core, which is predominantly whiter and significantly richer.

• 3:19:57Speaker 04

  Everyone watch Lehane. It's great.

• 3:20:00Robert Evans?

  I wish I had any idea what that was, but.

• 3:20:02Speaker 04

  Yeah. It's a French film about this.

• 3:20:05Robert Evans?

  Ah, okay.

• 3:20:06Speaker 04

  It's about people living in these sorts of like suburbs. It's a, it's a, two immigrants and I think a, a young Jewish kid who then travel into, into the city center and bad things happen. It's very similar to the story that you're going to be talking about.

• 3:20:21Robert Evans?

  Yep.

• 3:20:22Speaker 04

  But it's like looking at the conditions 20 years ago and the same conditions now.

• 3:20:27Robert Evans?

  Yeah, and conditions are worse.

• 3:20:28Speaker 04

  Yes, not the same, actually.

• 3:20:31Robert Evans?

  Yeah. So these protests spread very, very quickly. And it has now spread effectively everywhere. It's not just in Paris. It is across the entire country. I think right now, the last number that I saw, and this, this changed while I was writing this, the, the last number that I saw was 500 of France's 3,500, like high schools were fully shut down.

• 3:20:55Speaker 04

  Damn.

• 3:20:56Robert Evans?

  So these protests, again, started a couple of weeks ago on September 18th. As of Wednesday, the 7th, they are not just continuing, but escalating. Now, we're going to get into the police response in a second, but I can't count the number of times on this show I have said there was a giant police crackdown and the images of the police crackdown spread the protests, but that, that, that's what happened here. Why is this happening? Why is it specifically high school students who are now in the streets in full on conflict with riot police, who are reacting to and treating them the way that they treat, I mean, frankly, worse than most protesters get treated in France, which is sort of astonishing. Yeah. So there's actually a good crime thing piece about this. There's a lot of things happening here.

• 3:21:42Robert Evans?

  Part of it is a reaction to class sizes, where you have, I mean, 30 and 35 kids, sometimes a lot more than that. Class sizes is an issue that's familiar also to, I mean, a lot of these demands look like the demands you see in teacher strikes effectively everywhere.

• 3:21:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:21:57Robert Evans?

  Yeah. These, these class sizes are enormous. Part of it is that the structure of the French education system, which is, French schools have breaks, but also you're in school from 8 AM to 6 PM, which is longer than most places and also causes, you know, this also causes teachers to have to work longer hours. And that means that, you know, because they're working longer hours, the number of teachers you have is strained because you're covering more time. This plus, you know, decades of neoliberal austerity has led to conditions where there will just not be a substitute teacher. So a teacher will get sick. They'll have like maybe a person there, but it's not even a substitute teacher who could take over lesson plans. You just have a week at a time where you're in a subject that's on the national

• 3:22:42Robert Evans?

  exam system and there's no teacher.

• 3:22:46Robert Evans?

  Which is just sort of appalling, given one of the other things that these protests are about, which is this sort of algorithmic program. I remember we had a, a, a much less, I don't know, ferocious, a much more strict version of this when I was in high school, but in France, they have this sort of student program where you're supposed to like put in your choices and it like looks at your test scores and it spits out what you're, what you should be doing after like high school.

• 3:23:13Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 3:23:14Robert Evans?

  And this is one of the things that like, it feeds you into what track you're going into, right? So it feeds you into vocational schools. It feeds you into like what kind of colleges you can get into. It has turned into the system, kind of like we talked about with the Indian student protests, where there's this incredibly intense pressure on students to like fight against each other basically for, you know, like it's promoted intense competition. And then also, it's just, it's, it's a weird algorithm system and everyone is like forced to manage these, it's just issues you have with this weird algorithm taking what your information you're giving it and spitting you out, this thing that like determines the rest of your life. I mean, there's a lot of other problems. The actual conditions in the schools themselves

• 3:23:58Robert Evans?

  are very bad. Like, you know, it's leaking roofs, things like that. There's also, I saw a thing about like lunch breaks where students weren't able to eat because the lunch break wasn't, like they don't have enough cafeteria staff. The lunch break wasn't long enough for all the students to like get food.

• 3:24:15Speaker 04

  Jeez. Yeah, that's a problem.

• 3:24:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:24:18Robert Evans?

  These conditions are emblematic of, I mean, just a lot of what of this sort of deterioration of social services and, you know, the the sort of death of opportunity for these students in a way that the more I'm thinking about the more is just, oh, this reminds me a lot of of the of the Indian protests. And so the protests themselves, the Macron administration made a decision very, very early on that they were not going to negotiate with the students. They have kind of become more open to it. In the past day, we'll we'll see what happens there. But their their immediate response was, you know, a brutal police crackdown, which has been the Macron administration's response to most things.

• 3:25:00Robert Evans?

  And this has been, this has been a full on French police assault on a bunch of children. A 15 year old got his hand blown off. I I've seen conflicting reports about this. It seems like he was trying to pick up what he thought was a tear gas canister, but was actually a stun grenade.

• 3:25:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:25:16Robert Evans?

  But I've also seen reports that, like, it hit him. I don't know. But regardless, somehow the police fired a grenade and it blew this kid's hand off.

• 3:25:25Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:25:26Robert Evans?

  Another student has lost an eye. I think that kid was 16. The kid who got his hand blown off again was 15. I'm going to quote from Crime Thing here because he's another really bleak case. But currently, the 14 year old boy can't open his mouth as all of his bottom teeth were knocked out by the impact and all of his upper teeth are broken.

• 3:25:44Speaker 05

  Jesus.

• 3:25:45Robert Evans?

  So, yeah, that kid is that kid is 14.

• 3:25:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:25:49Robert Evans?

  These are, again, I cannot emphasize enough. These are actionable children. And and this is also kind of part of what's complicated in covering this because I think it's important to mention that, like, a cop should not be knocking out the teeth of anyone. The fact that they're doing this to 14 year olds is particularly brutal. And also, I think that it's true, and this has been one of the debates that's been sort of raging across French society, is like, are these students legitimate political actors? Like, do they have the right to have their voices heard? And, you know, like, go and take political action like this. And the right has kind of said no and argued that these people are sort of pawns of, you know, the, they're pawns of what I would describe as the center left

• 3:26:31Robert Evans?

  party France Unbowed. The media will describe them as hard left, but like, come on, like, they're like to the right of the old PCF and the the old French Communist Party was like not a particularly like communist communist party. But it's worth noting that while France Unbowed like has talked to students and like spoken at some of their protests, this was not a protest that was organized through the parties at all. There's an interesting interview in Le Monde with the French sociologist Vincent Taberge, where he points out that, you know, France is a country that has seen high school, organized high school student protests too. But these are not those kind of protests. You know, 2006 was kind of the last big high school student protest.

• 3:27:15Robert Evans?

  But those ones were organized by leftist student unions that were directly affiliated with the parties. This is not that. This is a bunch of students taking action autonomously. They are self organized and they are not particularly connected to any of the French political parties, even the sort of far left ones.

• 3:27:32Speaker 06

  And and the scale is like huge, right?

• 3:27:34Robert Evans?

  Oh, it's massive.

• 3:27:35Speaker 06

  For something that's more autonomously organized, like hundreds and hundreds of thousands of participants.

• 3:27:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, like all across the country.

• 3:27:43Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I mean, they fully have shut down. Okay, I'm not going to try to do the math on there. Hold on.

• 3:27:48Speaker 05

  One in seven, 500 out of 3,500.

• 3:27:50Robert Evans?

  Yeah, that that sounds that sounds right.

• 3:27:53Speaker 04

  That's why they call him PhD James, everyone.

• 3:27:56Speaker 05

  Park and historian over here.

• 3:27:58Robert Evans?

  Hell, yeah. Hell, yeah. Look, I I I I picked an anthropology degree specifically so I wouldn't have to do this kind of math.

• 3:28:06Speaker 05

  You just got to measure people's skulls instead in anthropology and do that kind of math.

• 3:28:10Robert Evans?

  Yeah, well, look, a- a- anthropology consists of two things, racism and a discourse about whether or not it's doing racism. So, you know, this is why I'm a podcaster now, a discipline that has never done anything wrong.

• 3:28:20Speaker 06

  That is most of what my anthropology class is.

• 3:28:24Speaker 05

  There's some good stuff in there.

• 3:28:25Robert Evans?

  Every every once in a while, they accidentally start a social movement. But

• 3:28:29Speaker 05

  Yeah. Oh, you do linguistic anthropology and it melts your brain.

• 3:28:33Robert Evans?

  Oh, that's so scary. Yeah.

• 3:28:35Speaker 05

  From the perspective of La France Insoumise is a French word for France Unbowed, right? Like, like, it's like a demsoc in that it did, it has people who are left of other people in it. But like Mia's right, this isn't a particularly radical party. At least sort of on a global scale, like you've seen some politicians do a lot better than others. Like, I'm sure everyone by now will have seen the Bali Bagayoko video, right, of the mayor getting tear gas with the kids.

• 3:29:03Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 3:29:04Speaker 05

  But like,

• 3:29:05Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 3:29:06Speaker 05

  It's not about politicians and like attempts to make it about politicians, other than being pissed off at them.

• 3:29:12Speaker 06

  Yeah, and people asking for like huge, like structural changes.

• 3:29:16Robert Evans?

  Yes.

• 3:29:16Speaker 06

  And frustration at both the left's inability to address this political situation in France and, you know, continuing this sort of like, like, like we talked about in like Brazil and and in some parts of the States, it's sort of like geritocracy even among the left, where we have these kind of old guys who may have done good things. But they're still in their 80s. And you need to pass the torch. And like, a lot of, a lot of what I'm seeing from these protests in in France, it is a very like generational uprising.

• 3:29:43Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 3:29:43Speaker 06

  And built also also built on the frustrations about how like 10% of the school budget is being diverted to the to the pension system. So there's, there's a lot of this kind of generational frustration and and the the the left in in France has also run into that.

• 3:30:00Speaker 05

  I was gonna say, like, I did, I did use calculator for this one, but it is 58 years since 1968. And but you have this, like, this generation of like swasso huitas, like, like 68ers.

• 3:30:10Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 3:30:11Speaker 05

  They've gone in a number of directions, right? But like to include like part of the electoral left and like it's it's not like we haven't seen protests since 68 in France, right? But like,

• 3:30:21Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 3:30:21Speaker 05

  It shouldn't be the one generation gets to have the, like, we were the radical students who changed the world. And therefore you students now have to listen to us, even though we're old as fuck and don't understand the shit that you're going through.

• 3:30:33Robert Evans?

  Yeah. And and I think the sort of structural issue in terms of how, yeah, on a generational level, like how the left has been and has not been connecting to these students. I think it's also very important, again, like where this started and the kind of like working class suburbs that the French left has had a really tenuous relationship with. Like, kind of since the 70s, and we talked about this, like, so like, I got three years ago now, there was a huge series, a huge uprising over a police killing in a different set of in a in a in a different set of French suburbs that really

• 3:31:14Robert Evans?

  came in this moment of what had been really fierce upheaval in France, like in in the wake of the Yellow Vest and all these other protests.

• 3:31:20Speaker 06

  Other pension protests.

• 3:31:22Robert Evans?

  Yeah, right. And but this, this was the one where like the non white people in the suburbs went up and the rest of France was like, oh, God, no, fuck off. We hate you. You're like, and to this day, like, that that the interview with the sociologist I was talking about in Le Monde, which is like the biggest newspaper in France, is talking about how of all these students are like actually different than like the like urban disturbances from those 2023 protests about police brutality and sort of structural racism and class violence. And when you look at it, it's like, no, they're not. Like, they're actually a lot. In some ways, they're a lot more similar to that than they are to the other protests which have been going on, which is where I kind of want to

• 3:32:02Robert Evans?

  close this, where we have also started to see the rest of French society move slowly in in sort of line with these student protests where, you know, obviously, part of the student protests are about this neoliberal kind of austerity budgets that the Macron administration keeps trying to pass. And so there's also been a one day strike of about like 300,000 workers from the sort of like traditional, like leftist unions. Also, about 11% of teachers and faculty are now on strike in the middle of this too. So it it remains to be seen exactly the extent to which the rest of the French left is going to join into these protests.

• 3:32:47Robert Evans?

  I I want to mention something briefly about schools here and why it's important that it's that these are starting here, which is that schools are not just places where you get education. They're also, you know, it's not just the basic part of like the reproductive labor that reproduces capital. It's not just that it produces future workers. But it's also a place where like the basic care for students and the basic social reproduction of like children is carried out by the state, which allows workers to work. Right? And this is why shutting schools down is also a a giant lever that allows you to, like, like actually fully shutting down schools en masse is a lever that allows you to disrupt the rest of the economy because it forces parents to like not work.

• 3:33:30Robert Evans?

  It's not exactly analogous, but it can serve the effect of what coal strikes used to, where if you shut down the supply of coal, it shuts out all of the workers down the line.

• 3:33:37Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 3:33:37Robert Evans?

  Where if you force all of these parents to have to stay home, and like all of these workers are no longer, you know, are now also on strike as a sort of secondary thing of of shutting these schools down. This is why the state always tries to make it really hard for teachers' unions to strike because schools are a lever of power that you can use in the labor system if you use them correctly. I want to close by mentioning that as this has been going on, there's been unrest building in France over, I mean, a whole bunch of things. There's a police bill, I think we talked about on this show, that is trying to allow the French police to basically, basically what it would do is it's it's a it's a proposed bill that if it was passed, if a French police officer shot someone, they would, they would be immediately assumed to have killed them legitimately.

• 3:34:20Robert Evans?

  And then they would have to be proven that they illegitimately killed them instead of there being an investigation immediately. So it's it's a bill that says that if a cop drags you to an alley and shoots you and there's no one there, there's nothing you can do about it. That's been causing unrest. And one of one of the, one of the old sort of signals that's been set up in the middle of this, and it's unclear who is doing this, but there's been this giant call put out from these mass demonstrations on October 17. And there's this question, you know, Crime Thing is talking about this. I've seen this in other places of are these student protests going to last until then, until that giant uprising? Are people going to come out into the streets before then?

• 3:35:01Robert Evans?

  And at this point, all we can sort of do is wait and also I guess if you're in France, go now. You're not going to get a better shot.

• 3:35:11Speaker 04

  If you're trying to overthrow the government.

• 3:35:13Speaker 06

  Stay in line, you know?

• 3:35:15Robert Evans?

  Yeah, like, I want to like end up like one actual important note, which is you see this a lot in the nature of French protests, you see this in American protests where like, one section of society will go into revolt and everyone else just kind of waits. And you get these like cycles where like the people who were kind of in the industries and occupy, like, weren't the same people necessarily. I mean, some of these either was crossover, but they weren't the same section of society that went in, like, went into revolt in Ferguson, right? They like waited until the next one was out. Or like, you see this with like, the British student movement. And then right after the British student movement, kind of gets crushed, the, there's like, there's like the riots in London 2010. And you've seen this here, where there were a bunch of like strikes by like the organized left and there was like,

• 3:35:59Robert Evans?

  the yellow vests, and then when the suburbs went up in 2023, everyone else stayed home. And if you do that, they're going to, they're going to line you up and they're going to knock you out one at a time. And the only way that you can win is like when one sector of society goes out, even if it's not yours, go with them.

• 3:36:16Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:36:16Robert Evans?

  Don't leave, don't leave the kids to die alone. Like, go support them, go fight with them.

• 3:36:22Speaker 06

  I do have something that's not on my script that I wanted to bring up really quickly because this just came out today and I do think it's an important story. This happened back in August, but we didn't know about it until today. So, a congressional candidate in Arizona, Bernadette Green Placentia, who is running in Arizona's eighth congressional district and trying to enseat incumbent Republican Representative Abe Hamada, was raped in August while she was repairing a damaged campaign sign in Sun City.

• 3:36:53Robert Evans?

  Geez.

• 3:36:53Speaker 06

  This was like a regular thing for her. Signs would get damaged, you know, either purposefully or just like by the climate. And she would go out and fix them in the morning. And one day when she was out doing this in August, at about 2:00 AM, she was struck in the head and lost consciousness and regained consciousness to a man sexually assaulting her. She believes he had said something about her being a democratic bitch, although she's not 100% certain about what he was saying. I think this is just kind of a, an important thing for people to be aware of for obvious reasons.

• 3:37:24Robert Evans?

  God, that's bleak.

• 3:37:25Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's pretty fucking horrifying.

• 3:37:27Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 3:37:28Speaker 06

  Anyway, this story came out within hours of us recording this, so I don't have much more on it than that.

• 3:37:33Robert Evans?

  The way that we tend to talk about like sexual violence, we tend to talk about it as something that's like an individual phenomena and not as a regime of violence that's done to discipline people into

• 3:37:45Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:37:46Robert Evans?

  falling in line. And this is a really

• 3:37:48Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:37:49Robert Evans?

  bleak and blatant example of like, oh yeah, no, sexual violence also is a social phenomenon that is designed to keep people in line. And fuck that.

• 3:37:59Speaker 06

  I mean, it's just worth noting that like even in a position of like relative cultural power to certainly the average victim, she didn't feel safe coming out about what had happened to her for months.

• 3:38:11Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 3:38:12Speaker 06

  So that's pretty worth acknowledging too. Moving along, on October 4th, 2026, Russian public health regulator, Ros Potrin, Ros, sorry guys, it's gonna take a second.

• 3:38:25Robert Evans?

  This is a bad one.

• 3:38:26Speaker 06

  It looks rough, man.

• 3:38:27Robert Evans?

  I'm not even, I'm not even gonna try it. The Russian public health regulator, their equivalent of the Department of Health, I'm not gonna try to say the name. You, you don't listen to this podcast because of my pronunciation of foreign languages, right? I'm not even gonna try here. Famously our strongest suit. I've never seen a B and an N come together without a vowel like now. It's really soft, dude. Yeah, there's, there's, there's some, there's some complicated phonetic shit going on in that word. It's gnarly. Fascinating. Well, now I have to try to say it. Ros Potrebnaz, Nadzor? Ros, Ros Potrebnaz? Benadz. Yeah. The Russian Department of Health issued a, sorry, it took a long time to get to the meat of this.

• 3:39:11Robert Evans?

  Issued a public statement that one employee of the Anti Plague Institute of Siberia and the Far East had perished due to her accidental exposure to pneumonic plague. This employee, 28-year-old Darya Shipilova, had apparently broken a vial containing plague bacteria and contracted the deadly disease. In short order, 200 some odd people who had close contact with Darya before her death were isolated and put under observation. Multiple hospitals and other facilities in the area were closed and/or put under observation. As news of this all trickled out into the wider world, people began to freak out. I think I first came across this story and like it was pushed to me, I don't even follow this subreddit, but the prepper subreddit like pushed it to me.

• 3:39:57Robert Evans?

  Right. People were freaking out about it so much, right? Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. To be fair, this is not not worth being concerned about, right? And I think this panic was an equal mix of PTSD from COVID and quite frankly, the enduring popularity of Stephen King's best novel, The Stand. I bring up The Stand because I can't lie, I initially got a little worried because the way in which this started is exactly how the world ending plague in The Stand begins. There's like a US scientist at a bioweapons lab who like breaks a vial and it kills everybody and it escapes containment and it wipes out, you know, the whole world, right? And to be clear, this is the sort of story that should generate some anxiety. It's not unreasonable if you were concerned about this.

• 3:40:41Robert Evans?

  But on closer inspection, I truly don't believe the specific case is worth freaking out over. For one thing, there's zero evidence that it has spread beyond its initial victim. It sounds scary to hear that hundreds of people have been contained after an accidental fatal plague exposure. But that's what you'd want the Russian government, or any government to do, right? Yeah. You would want them to take this kind of precaution, right? They are, I don't normally say this about the Russian government, but they seem to be responding responsibly to this. They seem to have an understanding that you have to respond very seriously to this sort of thing. Yeah, and it being the Plague Institute where this happened does, does raise the odds of the people dealing with it knowing what to do. Right, right.

• 3:41:26Robert Evans?

  It's the Plague Institute. And we'll talk a little bit more about that in a second. I do want to note here, so far, 60% of the people who have been detained have already been tested and been declared free of any sickness. And it seems like the rest are going to be given a good bill of health soon. A spokesperson for Russia's public health entity that I will not try to pronounce informed the New York Times. Laboratory tests have identified two cases of COVID-19 and two cases of rhinovirus infection or the common cold, the regulator said. According to the Interfax News Agency, no other infectious disease pathogens were detected in any of the contacts. Sorry, it wasn't directly to the Times, it was to Interfax. And you do have to imagine that those like four people who had the cold or COVID were like freaking the fuck out. Yeah, yeah. First of like, oh my God, is this the end, right?

• 3:42:11Robert Evans?

  Worst days of your life. I don't think sniffles are a sign of the pneumonic plague, but I would imagine you're not thinking super logically in this instance. Yeah. Now, the pneumonic plague is insanely deadly. It has a 71% case fatality rate. For some idea of how bad that is, the case fatality rate for Ebola is only around 50%, right? And. Although rates in past outbreaks have varied wildly, there's a lot of factors that can influence that. Ebola case fatality rates in different outbreaks have been anywhere from 25 to 90%, right? There's different variants of Ebola, right? Just as we don't exactly know what variant of the pneumonic plague this is, right? It might actually have a lower or higher case fatality rate.

• 3:42:54Robert Evans?

  This may be the only case of someone getting infected with this specific strain of pneumonic plague that we have. I like, I don't know that we really know exactly what she has. But yeah, this is a scary deadly plague. But that also makes the case that like, if it had broken containment, there would be way more sick and dying people by now. And given the overall competence of the Russian state, if this was an out of control plague in Siberia, I don't think they'd be able to keep this locked down very long, right? No. No. If 71% of people exposed to this were dying, right? Like, like had contracted it and were dying, I don't think they'd be able to keep this. I'm like, we'd be able to keep this thing secret, right? The other thing I should point out is that scary as that case fatality rate is,

• 3:43:38Robert Evans?

  that's not the only thing that should make a disease worrying to you, right? That's super worrying if you catch it, but pneumonic plague is not widely transmissible. Think back to COVID. If one person on a bus or a plane or in a room has COVID and sneezes, not back to, but think, I mean, COVID's still here. If one person in a room has COVID and sneezes, a bunch of people around them have a very good chance of getting infected, especially if they're not vaccinated, right? Pneumonic plague does not work this way. There's a very good CNN interview with virologist Angela Rasmussen. And she points out that this plague variant requires a lot of contact with the infected person. And even someone dying of plague is not coughing up a bunch of infectious material, right?

• 3:44:20Robert Evans?

  It's just not the same kind of illness in any way, shape or form. This is why none of the contained people who were close to Darya have gotten sick. Pneumonic plague victims are not super infectious. That interview with Dr. Rasmussen also brought up a very good point. This anti-plague lab is being described often as like a bioweapons factory. And the Russian state has surely done weapons research at this and other similar facilities. I'm not going to doubt that. But if absolutely no one anywhere on planet Earth was doing any bioweapons research, this facility would still exist because plague is endemic to the region, right? Right. It's not, there's not plague in this facility because the Russian government loves cooking up plague.

• 3:45:00Robert Evans?

  It's because this part of Siberia, tons of animals have the plague and people get plague all the time in this part of the world. This is the exact same thing with like Wuhan and like the Wuhan CDC there, which is like, yeah, there's a bunch of infectious disease research there because that's where it is. A bunch of bats there. This is where you do it. Yeah, you put, you put the lab in the

• 3:45:20Speaker 05

  Place where stuff is happening so you can

• 3:45:21Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 3:45:22Speaker 05

  Study it.

• 3:45:23Robert Evans?

  And yeah, plague is carried by animals. And by the way, Siberia, this part of Eastern Russia is not the only place where plague is super endemic. The midwestern US is riddled with plague carrying prairie dogs. And occasionally a person here.

• 3:45:37Speaker 05

  California too.

• 3:45:37Robert Evans?

  Right, California, I'm not saying that's not the, and those aren't the only animals that can give you plague. Occasionally, a person will catch bubonic plague in this country, which is a variant of the same disease as pneumonic plague. And they'll get it from, you know, some fucking animal. You may recall that the whole US has not been wiped out by an outbreak of the bubonic plague. This is because the bubonic plague is super treatable, but also not super easy to spread in the modern world. This may sound weird, given that bubonic plague wiped out much of Europe, but that was because the primary vectors for plague are wild animals that bite people and fleas from infected animals. The OG plague took centuries to get its teeth into the populace and only succeeded because back then people lived in super close contact with livestock

• 3:46:21Robert Evans?

  and had no real way of dealing with fleas. And we also didn't have like antibiotics, right?

• 3:46:26Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:46:26Robert Evans?

  You know, there's a, there's a ton of reasons why that, that happened then and it doesn't happen now. Now, not to say a treatment resistant form of the plague that's more infectious couldn't spread and evolve under these conditions. There's just not any evidence that that's happened yet, right? And so I, I would say this is not really something that should be on your front burner of concern.

• 3:46:48Speaker 05

  And like in, in, in terms of like where a disease like this would come from, this is something that, that Angelus like talked about before. Like the odds that this comes from a bioweapons lab is significantly lower than the odds that it comes from just like a factory farm.

• 3:47:03Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 3:47:04Speaker 05

  Where you have all these animals in really close containment and diseases spread extremely fast and get to mutate extremely quickly. Like that's, that's, that's like the primary like disease factor risk and stuff is that and then human contact in the wild.

• 3:47:17Robert Evans?

  Yeah, that's a great point, Mia. And we should probably move to ads right now. And then when we come back, I will talk about Brazil, which is honestly a little more worrying than the plague right now.

• 3:47:37Robert Evans?

  And we're back. So moving across the world to what some people call the Russia of South America, not me and not anyone I know. But you could call Brazil that. It wouldn't be very accurate, but you could call them that.

• 3:47:52Speaker 05

  It's big.

• 3:47:53Robert Evans?

  Flavio Bolsonaro emerged ahead of the current Brazilian president Lula in the first round of voting. Neither candidate emerged with an outright majority, so the election will proceed to a runoff. But most experts seem to consider Flavio's victory all but a foregone conclusion at this point. Political consulting firm Think Policy told Reuters, they estimated Lula would need to win 62% of voters who supported other conservative candidates in the first round of voting to have a chance. This does not seem likely. If you read a lot of coverage of this election, one thing you'll encounter is that every expert on Brazilian politics is very convinced that Flavio's presidency will be an extension of Jair Bolsonaro's presidency. A lot of Brazilian voters are convinced, and in fact, it's probable that most people who voted for Flavio

• 3:48:35Robert Evans?

  did so because they wanted another term for Jair, right? Flavio himself said at a recent rally, I ask God for the opportunity to walk up the ramp of Planalto Palace next year alongside President Jair Omeesias Bolsonaro, right? It's a pretty, pretty clear signposting there.

• 3:48:52Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:48:53Robert Evans?

  Jair is currently serving a 27 year sentence from house arrest. He is legally forbidden from holding office again as a result of his conviction over the coup attempt. Flavio has promised to seek amnesty for not just his father, but for the rioters who marched on Brazil's capital to keep his father in office. He's also promised to impeach the Supreme Court justices who ruled against Jair and his supporters. This is deeply concerning for a number of reasons. I want to quote from a New York Times article that came out today on the subject. The Bolsonaro family's comeback mirrors the enduring hold of other powerful political dynasties around the world, including the Marcuses in the Philippines, the Sharifs in Pakistan, the Fujimores in Peru, and the Kirchners in Argentina.

• 3:49:33Robert Evans?

  But Mr. Lula's political movement has failed to produce a successor and appears to have lost touch with its base as many Brazilians link it to corruption and government mismanagement. If Mr. Bolsonaro now succeeds in unseating his leftist rival in the October 25th runoff, he would gain unusually broad powers to shape Brazil. The next president will be able to appoint up to four new justices in this nation's Supreme Court, which has 11 seats in total. So one thing that's really worrying about this is that Flavio and, you know, Jair kind of through the transit of property will have nearly total power when he takes office for a lot of very frustrating reasons to do with the way Brazil's democracy is structured.

• 3:50:14Robert Evans?

  There's very little, if anything, in the way of like constitutional governing rails that would, that would limit what Flavio can do. This is an extremely concerning situation. It's very dispiriting. It's a good reason not to listen to, quite frankly, most of like the Western left's takes on politics outside of, and sometimes including the United States.

• 3:50:41Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 3:50:41Robert Evans?

  Cause if you would listen to what people were saying about Lula prior to this, it's entirely like he's this wonderful like leftist hero. And the reality is, you know, Lula's done some great things. He has some great political stances, but you can't look at his regime as anything but a failure if it's led to Bolsonarism.

• 3:50:58Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:50:59Robert Evans?

  Right? It failed to stop this, you know? It just as Biden failed, just as Clinton failed, right? Just as Obama failed to stop the rise of Trump, right? We can't pretend that in this case, because we can ignore the downsides and the failures of Lula's regime because we don't live in Brazil, that like he, he didn't fail. He did, you know? And, and that's just something the left has to grapple with. Like this is a guy who said and did a lot of the right things and who went pretty hard after prosecuting Bolsonaro. And it, it was a catastrophic failure. I, I don't know what else to say.

• 3:51:38Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, I think something I've talked about, God, back, back, back in the last election, I did a very long series of episodes on Lula and one of the sort of structural problems of, of the program of the Workers' Party was that it was always dependent on the commodity boom. And, you know, the massive export prices you get from that. And the moment the commodity boom collapsed, the entire project was on borrowed time because it became impossible to do the kind of like sort of class negotiation of redistributing a bunch of the profits from the commodities who are selling overseas and like raising living conditions for people while paying off Bolivia's sort of like oligarchical ruling class. And the moment that coalition fell apart.

• 3:52:20Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 3:52:21Speaker 05

  You know, everything went to shit. And the problem is like, there isn't really a way to deal with Bolsonaro without like systematically going through and like destroying like the media oligarchy and like a whole bunch of different sectors of the Brazilian ruling class. But Lula wasn't, it, it was a difficult position for them, even in the 2000s, when they had a really, really strong political mandate. And there wasn't any way to do it, even if they'd wanted to. Under, under the last electoral coalition, which was this very fragile coalition with a bunch of sort of like anti-Bolsonaro conservatives and this like weird parliamentary left center right coalition that ended up with a bunch of sort of like

• 3:53:03Speaker 05

  very shitty like neoliberal economic policy going through that like just continued to enable sort of Bolsonarism. And yeah, you have to grapple with like, if you aren't able to fundamentally destroy like the material basis of your opponents, they're eventually going to overthrow you and you're going to be back here.

• 3:53:22Robert Evans?

  Yep, yep. It's, uh, I don't know, it's disappointing. We'll, we'll have more coverage on this in the future because this is really important, right? Just as it's very important to look at what's happening in Hungary right now as like an example of what a post-Trump United States might look like. It's very important to look at Lula's and his coalition's failures in terms of like, well, number one, this also does mirror in, in some ways mirrors what happened with Biden. But this is also evidence of like, you know, you don't want to take anything too directly. Cause again, the, these are all very different countries and very different from the United States. But there are some, there are some lessons here for the entire world and like how hard it is to unseat

• 3:54:08Robert Evans?

  an authoritarian regime that is entirely predicated on making stupid, easy promises.

• 3:54:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:54:16Robert Evans?

  To people, right? As opposed to coalitions that are attempting to do the very difficult job of governing, right? And that you're always going to be in an uphill battle if the other guy is just spouting fantasies. And if the media goes along with it, that's a huge part of it too.

• 3:54:34Speaker 05

  The media aspect is a huge part of this.

• 3:54:36Robert Evans?

  Massive aspect.

• 3:54:37Speaker 05

  As much as, as much as this is a warning for us going forward, I think this is an example of like, what if, what if, you know, someone even much more progressive than Joe Biden would, would take office in 2028? What if we get a sort of like ineffectual social democratic administration?

• 3:54:50Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 3:54:51Speaker 05

  Who, who might, who might actually do some things that are.

• 3:54:53Robert Evans?

  Might say the right things and fail, you know?

• 3:54:55Speaker 05

  Or, and might even do things that are kind of sensible, might, might actually put forward some good policies.

• 3:55:00Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 3:55:01Speaker 05

  But that just not end up mattering because of whatever, whatever kind of structural limitations they hit, whatever kind of media narratives really, really take hold. You, you see this kind of really big focus on like fraud and corruption on, on the right right now.

• 3:55:15Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 3:55:16Speaker 05

  About, you know, that's a big part of what government is, is, is supposed to do. And this is something that, that Zorn has tried to take by the horns and try to like, make sure that the right can't fully co-opt, like co-opt that sort of language, be like, if we're, if we want to have a socialist or a social democratic government, it needs to be efficient and that should be actually real efficiency.

• 3:55:33Robert Evans?

  I continue to think one of the things that any leftist movement trying to unseat authoritarianism in the United States particularly needs to have as a central issue is fighting fraud and fighting scams.

• 3:55:46Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 3:55:47Robert Evans?

  Almost nothing is more important from an electoral standpoint, in my opinion.

• 3:55:51Speaker 05

  Yeah. There's a new poll from KFF looking at issues that, that voters care about for the midterms. Cost of living is the top issue for Democratic and independent voters.

• 3:56:03Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 3:56:03Speaker 05

  While Republican voters, while Republican voters want candidates to discuss, quote, fraud. And I think that's a really interesting look at where we are right now as a country.

• 3:56:14Robert Evans?

  Well, yeah.

• 3:56:15Speaker 05

  I, I think, I think tying this back to Brazil too, like this is one of the problems that the PT, the Workers' Party had was like the, the way that the media was able to steer, like all anti-corruption stuff in Brazil, like ended up going after the Workers' Party, even though all of the corruption scandals implicated literally everyone across the entire political spectrum.

• 3:56:33Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 3:56:34Speaker 05

  Like this is part of what happened this election where like, there's a bunch of fraud scandals with like the Supreme Court, but that's been like tied to Lula and he's the one who's taken the hit from it, even though it also involves like all of the right wing political parties. And that. That's like one of the dangers of sort of, I don't know, it's like one of the persistent problems of like, the way that fraud and the way the anti-corruption politics get deployed by the right, that's just this like, decades-long issue.

• 3:57:00Robert Evans?

  Another weird example of this is that the mayor of New York went on to a podcast by a guy named Theo Von, if you're familiar. Yeah, I know.

• 3:57:10Speaker 05

  Jesus Christ, yeah.

• 3:57:12Robert Evans?

  And one, one interesting thing that, that happened is Zoran was talking about how the city just secured a historic $130 million settlement from DoorDash. And 115 million of that is going to go directly to DoorDash workers, who DoorDash was underpaying for years, with workers receiving anywhere between 500 to thousands of dollars in pay that was stolen from them. Yeah. But part of this, part of this settlement is also $16 million in, in civil penalties and funding to build this tool, which will be operated by the city and workers to monitor DoorDash, to make sure that they don't rip off their workers going forward. And something that, that was very interesting, when Theo heard that, he's like, why? Why would you use that money?

• 3:57:56Robert Evans?

  Why not just give that money to, to the workers? You know, he, he kind of inquired about this as a possible example of fraud. Of like, why is the city taking, you know, $16 million? Like, is it actually going to be, you know, good? Or is that another example of fraud and corruption? And like, I think that, that's a really interesting look at like, the, the mind of the kind of like, right-wing, uh, you know, focus on fraud. Of like, no, that money's actually going to build a tool to make sure that DoorDash cannot defraud its own workers. Yeah. Going forward, and it'll be operated by the city and workers themselves. But it's a really interesting look at like, this sort of like distrust. And, uh, and even, even in something like, you know, a $130 million settlement, which

• 3:58:39Robert Evans?

  is, you know, historic, that's the largest worker, like, labor settlement in municipal history. It's massive, yeah. Even in that, there's this kind of like, you know, you know, like a worry in the mind of the right, that somehow this will be used for, you know, fraudulent means. Yeah. I, I do want to re, to iterate here, like, when I say that, like, Lula failed, that's not even coming from a point of necessarily like, moral condemnation, it's just like, we lost.

• 3:59:03Speaker 05

  We have to be factual.

• 3:59:04Robert Evans?

  It didn't work. We have to look at what went wrong here. You can't just pretend that this, this was a good presidency because he said the right things and went after Bolsonaro, we lost, right? We have to deal with that. We have to play the ball where it fucking lies, right? Anyway, let's talk about Dennis Hastert, huh? Everybody loves old Denny. Denny was his nickname.

• 3:59:27Speaker 05

  Unfortunately, too many people seem to.

• 3:59:30Robert Evans?

  Too many people still do love Denny.

• 3:59:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, Jesus Christ. Yeah, yeah, a lot of people sharing our profession have some serious fucking issues.

• 3:59:36Robert Evans?

  Multiple articles that I have read today all pointed out that he went by the nickname Denny and was considered a very cool and approachable Republican Speaker of the House.

• 3:59:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was real approachable. He was approaching some fucking other people.

• 3:59:51Robert Evans?

  I'm, I'm saying this because Dennis Hastert, the longest-serving Republican Speaker of the House and a serial pedophile, died earlier this week on October 5th. Hastert's legacy, such as it was, was ruined after he left office when regulators noticed a bunch of really weirdly structured payments that he initially characterized as blackmail payments based on false allegations. Oh, some guy made me, you know, is blackmailing me and it's all bullshit, but it's just easier to pay. This was a lie. The payments were to a man who, as a boy, had been molested and I think raped by Dennis. Uh, this was during his time as a high school wrestling coach. This guy was 14 when Hastert abused him, and when he approached the former Speaker of the

• 4:00:36Robert Evans?

  House decades later, Hastert agreed to buy his silence with $3.5 million in hush money. This is not an amount you would spend on like bullshit blackmail allegations, right? This is a fortune.

• 4:00:49Speaker 05

  That's a lot of money.

• 4:00:50Robert Evans?

  The financial crimes are the only ones Hastert was actually convicted over. His abuse of his students had occurred too long ago, the statute of limitations was up. But the resulting investigation and court case revealed at least four victims, and I don't know that I know of any convicted pedophiles who had four victims and only four victims, right?

• 4:01:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, once you're doing it a lot, like.

• 4:01:12Robert Evans?

  Four came forward, this is a guy who was abusing kids in his years-long time as a wrestling coach. He had other victims. The judge in that case declared him a serial child molester. Uh, now, the kind of abuse he engaged in varied, sort of the most common thing that he did was he had a recliner that he set up outside of the boys' locker room.

• 4:01:36Speaker 05

  What?

• 4:01:36Robert Evans?

  So.

• 4:01:37Speaker 05

  Jesus.

• 4:01:38Robert Evans?

  He also engaged in fondling and outright rape on at least one occasion in the form of forced oral sex. Make no mistake, Dennis Hastert was a serial child rapist and molester. During his court case, he made a, he stated that, "I want to apologize to the boys, I mistreated when I was their coach." And the sisters of one of the victims said to him, "Don't be a coward, Mr. Hastert. Tell the truth. What you did wasn't misconduct, it was sexual abuse of a minor." Now, that was solid speaking out in court on her part. Uh, a lot of journalists and media figures could stand to take a lesson from that. Uh, the AP's obituary for him just read, "Dennis Hastert, longtime Republican House Speaker who went to prison, dies at age 84."

• 4:02:23Speaker 05

  Oh my gosh.

• 4:02:24Robert Evans?

  Went to prison, went to prison.

• 4:02:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, like he went on a visit to check it out, like.

• 4:02:29Robert Evans?

  Hmm, why?

• 4:02:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, what could have happened there?

• 4:02:33Robert Evans?

  Now, Fox's main article on him did note, although I think this may have been, I'm not sure if this was like, uh, uh, something they added after the fact, but it did call him like, a child molester. However, and, and I'm going to quote here from an article, uh, in Yahoo News. "Fox News gave former Republican House Speaker Dennis Hastert an in memoriam send-off Monday, memorializing a man whom a federal judge called a serial child molester while relegating the sexual abuse of teenage boys to a brief reference to allegations that had tainted his reputation. As we go to break, former House Speaker Dennis Hastert has died," Bayer said as archival footage played beneath a banner reading, "In memoriam, former House Speaker Dennis Hastert dies at 84." Bayer then highlighted Hastert's political resume, noting that the Illinois Republican

• 4:03:17Robert Evans?

  served as Speaker from 1999 to 2007, was the longest-serving Republican House Speaker in American history. Then came an extraordinarily sanitized depiction of why Hastert became one of the most disgraced political figures in modern American history. His reputation was later tainted by allegations he had molested athletes during his career as a teacher and wrestling coach, Bayer said. He spent more than a year in prison." Allegations? Allegations? A judge called him a serial child molester. You don't have to say allegations anymore, Brett. You can just say he fucked kids.

• 4:03:47Speaker 05

  You're legally in the clear here, you're not going to get sued for just being a coward.

• 4:03:51Robert Evans?

  Point to the judge, like, who's going to sue you? Dennis Hastert's people?

• 4:03:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, like, do they really want that discovery? Like.

• 4:04:00Robert Evans?

  Yeah, okay, man, go for it. Anyway, that's, that's all I got.

• 4:04:06Speaker 05

  Last Tuesday, in a short and unsigned order, the Supreme Court allowed the Trump administration to continue sending people to countries that are not their own. It's a protest, it's often referred to as third-country deportation. Uh, it's hard not to see this as, it's just rendition, right? Like, you're sending people to places where they have no ties, often to be tortured. The court will hear oral arguments about this in December, but for now, this practice can continue. This is manifesting in New York, for example, uh, in the removal of people who have a status called withholding of removal. According to reporting in The City Reporter, and documented people with this status, which there's a very high burden of proof for this, right?

• 4:04:49Speaker 05

  Like, it's, it's a higher burden of proof than just saying it, right? They have, the people have to prove that they will be in danger if they are returned. They're being called into federal buildings for a, quote, "ICE check-in." They're sent these like, very brief letters, so, like, document update, or like, some, some pretext for bringing them into buildings, where they're then detained and sent to third countries.

• 4:05:12Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 4:05:13Speaker 05

  The Trump administration has been doing this more and more, right? It, it's trying to find loopholes in the law, which is very clearly designed to protect very vulnerable people and prevent a risk of what is called chain refoulement. Chain refoulement, if you're not familiar, is a process whereby someone is sent back to their country where they have proven they're not safe by route of a third country. So, let's say I'm trying to send Gareth to Canada, but I send them to France, and then France sends them to Canada, right? People deported to third countries have faced torture, harassment, extortion, and worse. The Trump administration has managed to cajole nearly two dozen countries into accepting people this way. Previously, this practice was extremely rare.

• 4:05:57Speaker 05

  Obviously, rendition, which is not really an immigration procedure when it is carried out as rendition, has happened before. There was also the practice of returning people to Mexico who had crossed the southern border, Biden did that, Trump won did that, right? But those people weren't being removed when they had withholding of removal, they were being removed under Title 42, which is, again, legally distinct. In several cases, there has been an effort by the states involved to cast doubt about who is legally responsible for people removed this way. So, in the United States case, it claimed that people moved to Seco, if you remember that scandal, I guess, I didn't, travesty. The US claimed that they were the responsibility of the Salvadorian government.

• 4:06:39Speaker 05

  The US then went on to broker a deal with Venezuela in which it returned them to Venezuela. Panama has claimed that people who are non-Panamanian there were in the custody of the UN, but the UN said that they were in the responsibility of the Panamanian government. The government clearly uses this practice, I guess, as a punishment. We can see it in the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, who was offered a chance to be deported to Costa Rica if he pled guilty and threatened with Uganda if he did not. Like, and you hear this a lot from people, migrants who have signed, quote-unquote, self-deportation paperwork, perhaps saying, oh, I didn't want to get sent. Generally, the way they waive this is, we'll send you to Africa. Large portions of the United States population still believe that Africa is a country, not a continent.

• 4:07:23Speaker 05

  This is an ongoing issue, but for migrants who have never been anywhere in Africa, that is extremely scary, right? A continent where you know no one, where people's human rights are abused.

• 4:07:33Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Well, and honestly, like, as you noted, James, we're probably, for most people, your only knowledge of the continent is like war and disease.

• 4:07:42Speaker 05

  Yes, through this dark continent trope, right? Yes, people's understanding of, of, of Africa is extremely problematic, but like, it's understandable that people are very afraid.

• 4:07:51Robert Evans?

  But that influences why this is such a scary thing.

• 4:07:54Speaker 05

  Yes, absolutely. So, let's take the example of more than a dozen people who have been sent to Esuatini. They were held in a maximum security. Prison without meaningful access to counsel. For nine months, the government there prevented them from meeting a local attorney and denied them unmonitored calls to attorneys in the United States. The government of Esfotini has repeatedly said that they want to participate in chain refoulement, saying the goal of the procedure was, quote, facilitating their eventual repatriation. This is happening all over the world, like right out in the open. It's a very clear attempt to evade the protections that these people have. Evidently, international law is not a real thing for powerful countries, and that's

• 4:08:38Speaker 05

  what we're seeing here. All of this comes as ISIS once again surging arrests. They were in San Diego, ICE SRT were in San Diego today. There's been a sharp increase reported in Los Angeles. These call-ins are happening more and more in New York. Like, I think we can probably expect to see them doing liberal cities before the midterms.

• 4:08:59Robert Evans?

  Yeah, but they're all over Chicago right now, too.

• 4:09:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. They're really going after it at this time. And I think that because it's red meat to their base, right? They want to kind of own the libs, especially in New York, where Mamdani has had success, right? And they don't like that. It is also going to result in people who have every right to go to the polls and vote being afraid to do so.

• 4:09:22Robert Evans?

  Yep.

• 4:09:23Speaker 05

  And that is not a coincidence. This is all part of a coordinated strategy going into next month.

• 4:09:31Robert Evans?

  Yeah, that's what we talked about a little bit last week with this new save verification system.

• 4:09:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 4:09:38Robert Evans?

  And part of the system is so that people who are eligible to vote might be too scared to even register to vote if the system flags you as a noncitizen and then puts you into contact with ICE. And even if you are legally here, maybe you're living with someone who isn't.

• 4:09:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 4:09:53Robert Evans?

  And it could just scare people out of exercising their right to vote.

• 4:09:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, maybe you just don't think it's worth all that stress.

• 4:10:00Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 4:10:00Speaker 05

  Right? You don't want those people around your neighborhood, like all of those are very real concerns, especially if you feel like your vote doesn't matter or whatever. Like, yeah, it's all part of voter suppression.

• 4:10:12Robert Evans?

  It's a, yeah, a really, really kind of advanced and insidious tactic of voter suppression.

• 4:10:17Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 4:10:18Robert Evans?

  Obviously, the Trump administration wants as few people to vote in these midterms as possible.

• 4:10:22Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 4:10:23Robert Evans?

  And certainly, certainly going forward.

• 4:10:25Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 4:10:26Robert Evans?

  Speaking of voting, it could happen here, as well as two other Cool Zone Media shows, Behind the Bastards and Weird Little Guys, are nominated for a Signal Award, which is not related to the encrypted messaging app. As cool as that would be.

• 4:10:41Speaker 04

  That would be sick.

• 4:10:41Robert Evans?

  As cool as that would be, they had a podcast award for some reason.

• 4:10:45Speaker 05

  Hell, yeah.

• 4:10:46Robert Evans?

  As opposed to an award for the people who have said the most things on Signal that they would not have wanted to say on any other app, which is, I think, we might also be in contention for a victory.

• 4:10:58Speaker 05

  Reward for most bonkers group chat would also be.

• 4:11:01Robert Evans?

  Yeah, oh, my God. If you would like to vote for us for the Signal Awards, voting is open till October 15th. This is good prep if you intend to vote for the midterms. I know voting is scary.

• 4:11:13Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 4:11:13Robert Evans?

  Not everyone believes in it, but if you could at least vote in the Signal Awards, that would be appreciated. This is not electoralism, folks. This is not going to give us any power. It will give some of us small statues. I don't know. I think it is harm reduction to beat Prof G Markets. Yeah, can I just say, one of these people repudens, fuck me. Yeah, yeah, we gotta beat G Markets. Prof G Markets? The fuck is his name? Prof G Markets. My God.

• 4:11:38Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, Prof G, it's an economist who talks every fucking day about capital markets. I cannot imagine what that does to the human soul.

• 4:11:47Robert Evans?

  Why? Nightmare. I mean, I don't, I guess not why, but yeah.

• 4:11:52Speaker 05

  We are polling at 41%.

• 4:11:53Robert Evans?

  We are a few points ahead, but it's still fluctuating. So if you would like to be a big part.

• 4:11:58Speaker 05

  If you're in line, stay in line.

• 4:12:00Robert Evans?

  Stay in line. If you want to be a big part of helping beat Prof G Markets, follow the link.

• 4:12:05Speaker 05

  And some other shit there.

• 4:12:06Robert Evans?

  And some others.

• 4:12:07Speaker 05

  HousingWire Daily polling at 1%, lol.

• 4:12:10Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 4:12:11Speaker 05

  Owned.

• 4:12:12Robert Evans?

  Look, you can't stop Flavio Bolsonaro from winning in Brazil, but we can stop him from winning a Signal Award. And of course, by that, I mean Prof G would clearly hand his Signal Award over to the Bolsonaros. We all know that. A vote for Prof G is a vote for Jair Bolsonaro to win the Signal Awards.

• 4:12:31Speaker 05

  When I discovered this was happening, I did go on the Prof G Markets YouTube, and they were discussing what Bolsonaro would mean for the markets.

• 4:12:39Robert Evans?

  Well, there you go. There you go. Let's not look any further into that, James. Let's not look any further into that.

• 4:12:44Speaker 05

  I have a high threshold for stress, but I wasn't able to watch that. I've seen too much.

• 4:12:50Robert Evans?

  But what will the markets think? What will the markets think? They'll think, vote for Cool Zone. Yeah. If you would like to help us beat Prof G, follow the link in the show notes. Does G stand for Jair? No, because that's spelled with a J. But it might, theoretically, it might, you know? Vote for us just in case.

• 4:13:07Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah, if you want to email us, it's [email protected], unless you're a marketing person and go fuck yourself.

• 4:13:14Robert Evans?

  We reported the news.

• 4:13:17Speaker 04

  We reported the news.

• 4:13:23Robert Evans?

  Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe.

• 4:13:29Speaker 01

  It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could Happen Here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening. I'm Melissa Jelton, host of the What Happened to Her podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it, and the man they suspected wore a badge.

• 4:14:04Speaker 03

  You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform.

• 4:14:09Speaker 01

  And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.

• 4:14:28Robert Evans?

  Folks, there's important news, there's depressing news.

• 4:14:31Speaker 05

  And then there's the news we actually want to talk about.

• 4:14:34Robert Evans?

  On our podcast, Bananas, we search far and wide for all the news stories that make you say, what? What? And then we tell you all about them.

• 4:14:42Speaker 05

  Doorbell prankster that tormented German resident apartments turns out to be a slug.

• 4:14:47Robert Evans?

  Ding dong.

• 4:14:48Speaker 05

  New episodes drop Tuesdays with more than 400 episodes to catch up on.

• 4:14:52Robert Evans?

  Listen to Bananas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In February of 2024, celebrated illustrator and children's book author Petra Mathers and her husband Michael mailed letters to dozens of friends and family members to let them know they had died by suicide.

• 4:15:10Speaker 06

  Dear honeys, this is goodbye.

• 4:15:12Speaker 04

  By the time you get this letter, both Petra and I will be dead. Next stop, Wonderland.

• 4:15:19Robert Evans?

  Why did they do it? And what did it do to the people they left behind? Listen to Death of an Artist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 4:15:30Speaker 02

  On Big Lives, we take a single cultural icon.

• 4:15:32Speaker 06

  People like Jane Fonda, George Michael, Little Richard.

• 4:15:35Speaker 02

  And we pull apart the story behind the image, discovering forgotten interviews that changed exactly how we see these giants of our culture.

• 4:15:44Speaker 06

  We're here for the messy, the brilliant, the human version of our heroes.

• 4:15:48Speaker 02

  I'm Emmanuel Jochi.

• 4:15:49Speaker 06

  I'm Kai Wright.

• 4:15:50Speaker 02

  And this is Big Lives.

• 4:15:52Speaker 06

  Listen to Big Lives on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 4:16:00Speaker 01

  You broke me. You do not deserve happiness. I'm Andrea Gunning. On this season of Betrayal, Carl thought he was living a normal, drama-free life, until the messages started. Someone's not going to make it out of this alive. Every piece of evidence pointed to the wrong guy. He was not going to stop unless we stopped him. Listen to Betrayal, season six, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 4:16:29Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.