The Orgasm Expert: "Low Libido" Doesn't Exist! The Real Reason You're Not In The Mood

Why does desire fade in long-term relationships? And could everything we’ve been taught about female pleasure be wrong? In this eye-opening episode of Begin Again, Davina McCall is joined by clinical psychologist and psychosexologist Dr Karen Gurney to explore the truth about female pleasure, sexual desire and intimacy, and why so much of what we’ve been taught is holding us back. Karen challenges the idea of “foreplay”, explains why arousal can come before desire, and unpacks why feeling like you have a “low libido” doesn’t necessarily mean something is wrong. From the orgasm gap and women’s pleasure to the myths surrounding male desire, she shares what really shapes a fulfilling sex life. Together, Davina and Karen talk honestly about why passion can fade in long-term relationships, how to rebuild intimacy without pressure, and the surprisingly powerful role of flirting, affection and kissing simply for the joy of it. They also explore how to talk to your partner about sex without shame, how body confidence affects pleasure, and why getting older can bring a wonderful new sense of sexual freedom. 🌟Like, comment and subscribe for more honest conversations about purpose, resilience, love, loss and beginning again. Follow us here: 📸www.instagram.com/beginagain 🎥https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod ✨Sign up for the Begin Again newsletter for behind-the-scenes access, recommendations and much more: https://linkly.link/2g2xm Follow Dr Karen Gurney here: https://www.instagram.com/thesexdoctor/ (00:00) Intro (01:36) Why Brits Struggle With Sex Talk (04:37) How Women's Views On Sex Become Distorted (08:21) Why "Virginity" And "Foreplay" Are Problematic Words (10:34) Educating Young People On Healthy Sex (12:04) Talk To Your Kids About Masturbation & Pleasure (20:36) Male vs. Female Orgasms (26:35) How Women Can Enjoy Sex More (29:03) BHF Ad (30:14) Do Health Ad (31:24) Better Communication Transforms Sex Lives (39:44) Ancient & Brave Ad (46:28) What Keeps Sexual Desire Alive (01:05:28) Why Body Confidence Is Key To Great Sex Sponsored by: British Heart Foundation - To help fund lifesaving research, visit https://bhf.org.uk/keepusbeating to donate now and keep us beating Do Health - The waitlist is open. Begin Again listeners get fixed early access pricing when they sign up today at dohealth.co/beginagain use code BEGINAGAIN Ancient & Brave - https://ancientandbrave.earth/planet use code BEGINAGAIN for 20% off Sync ID: MB01D4FTYUDNHXL Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Ultra running shoes are all about space. The space to go further, to feel better, to do something you never thought possible. And this space starts with Ultra Fit. Unlike traditional running shoes, Ultra Fit gives toes more room to move naturally. So every step is strong, balanced, and comfortable. Whatever you're lacing up for, stay out there with Ultra. Shop now at ultrarunning.com. That's A-L-T-R-A running.com. This episode is brought to you by Redken. Sabrina Carpenter is on repeat. Dry hair isn't. Let's change the tune. Meet Redken All Soft All-In Deep Conditioning Hair Mask.

• 0:42Speaker 00

  Up to 96 hours of hair moisture, softness, and shine with the All Soft system. Try the Star Treatment, the All Soft Deep Conditioning Hair Mask, which provides 12 times more moisture and helps reduce frizz for up to 72 hours. That's a hair care hit worth putting on repeat.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  Life is all about making decisions. Sometimes you make questionable ones, like buying a new TV that's too big for the wall because the electronics store employee was a little too good at their job. Then sometimes you make great ones, like protecting your home and auto with Progressive. You get customized coverage options so you can be sure you have the right coverage. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers, not available in all states.

• 1:30Speaker 02

  Sex is everywhere, but 50 to 65% of women say they regularly fake orgasm with a partner.

• 1:36Speaker 03

  Is it that much?

• 1:37Speaker 02

  It's a known feature of long-term relationships, and it's so easy to correct. And all we need to do is...

• 1:44Speaker 03

  Oh my God. What if the best sex you're ever going to have hasn't even happened yet? That's exactly what Dr. Karen Gurney is talking to us about today.

• 1:53Speaker 02

  Sexual desire just declines and declines and declines. It's very hard to come by.

• 1:58Speaker 03

  Pardon the pun.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so it's considered normal for women to say they never feel like sex with their long-term partner. Most people are blaming themselves. There's something wrong with me. I have a low sex drive. But there is no such thing as a low sex drive. The root of this is desire.

• 2:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:15Speaker 02

  So the first thing to look at is...

• 2:17Speaker 03

  Oh my God, this is literally gold. So get yourself comfortable. It's time to begin again with Dr. Karen Gurney. Oh, so good. I'm so happy.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  I'm happy too.

• 2:33Speaker 03

  This is so good because I love the way that you can inform us around something that we Brits find so difficult to talk about. And I'm always interested by, because I'm half-French, and I feel like that has liberated me in some way around sex in a way that possibly my British side wouldn't agree with. And I'm conflicted inside, like, take all my clothes off now and speak everywhere. So thank you very much for coming to talk to us today. So I've got both of your books here, so we're going to touch a little bit on both of these.

• 3:10Speaker 02

  Great.

• 3:11Speaker 03

  And I'd like to start off with, why do you think us Brits do struggle so much talking about something that's so much fun?

• 3:21Speaker 02

  We really do.

• 3:22Speaker 03

  We do.

• 3:23Speaker 02

  We really do. And it's fascinating, actually, because sex is everywhere when you think about it. But our ability to talk about it is so limited. And what we know actually from sex research is that not being able to talk about it is one of the biggest factors with sexual dissatisfaction.

• 3:44Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 3:45Speaker 02

  So being able to talk about sex with someone you're having sex with is really highly correlated with being able to maintain desire, being able to have great sex, being able to keep sex good over the decades if you're continuing to have sex together. But we struggle to do it.

• 4:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, and why? That's so weird.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:05Speaker 03

  When it's that important.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. There are a couple of reasons. The first is because we're not really socialized to do it. So from an early age, most of us are socialized into families where sex is either not spoken about at all, which kind of puts across an idea that it's not okay to talk about this topic. So if the TV was turned over when sex came on, if you were never really told about the joy of sex, if you were just told, you know, make sure nothing bad, don't do anything stupid, you know? If you were given these kind of veiled ideas that bad things could happen if you were sexual with someone else. All of these messages stack up for us in our younger years and create an idea that

• 4:51Speaker 02

  this topic is not safe and not okay to talk about. And then if you add into that that because it's not been talked about, we've not been given any language to talk about it.

• 5:03Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  We don't have the right words, and we certainly don't have words that feel comfortable to say out loud, because we've never said them that often. And often, we don't have words that feel kind of age-appropriate. They're either maybe a little bit porny. The words feel a bit like words you don't want.

• 5:22Speaker 03

  God, yes, okay, yes.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  Or they feel overly childish.

• 5:25Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  And that, of course, doesn't fit well with sexuality.

• 5:29Speaker 03

  And isn't sexy, yeah.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  And so even if you think about a vulva, for example, you've got the medical and scientific words, you know, vulva, vagina, clitoris, et cetera, but then the other words you've got available to you are challenging.

• 5:44Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  And so not having the words, not having the practice, not having the permission, these are all things that play into it. And, you know, it's not just in the UK. You know, we're pretty bad at it, but actually, this is a worldwide problem. With some countries with better sex education doing much better at this than others. Denmark.

• 6:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  The Netherlands. It makes me really sad, actually, because we miss such a golden opportunity for our young people, to teach them that sex can be a great source of pleasure and a great source of joy. And all we really teach them is, you know, there's lots of risks having sex, make sure nothing bad happens. And we don't really talk with them about the opportunities that sex brings. You know, we both know that sex more often brings joy and connection and pleasure. It brings those things far more often than it brings, you know, a risk of pregnancy, if that's not something you want, risk of STIs, you know, risk of reputational damage. But yet, that's the message we sell to young people.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  You know, don't do it, avoid it, if you're going to do it, think bad things might happen. And that's not setting young people up for good sexual lives, and certainly not setting up young women to expect pleasure.

• 7:02Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 7:03Speaker 02

  As the primary outcome from a sexual encounter. It's...

• 7:08Speaker 03

  Can we just talk about stats there?

• 7:09Speaker 02

  Yes. You know, I love stats.

• 7:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, like, tell me the stats. Because when you're talking about we're not helping young women understand that they can expect or ask for pleasure themselves, and that there is a gap between orgasming for women and men during a sexual encounter.

• 7:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 7:35Speaker 03

  Could you just talk me through that? Because I was so shocked to hear the stats around that.

• 7:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's big news, isn't it? And before I come into the stats, the orgasm gap, there's a couple of other things I want to shoehorn in there about what affects young women, particularly in sexual encounters, as well as this sex education gap, as well as the challenges of communication. We've also got ideas of how women are socialized into concepts like bodily autonomy. So, you know, as a young person, are we taught you need to go and hug your Uncle Bob goodbye, even though Uncle Bob is creepy?

• 8:15Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 8:16Speaker 02

  And we want to say no. There is a message of ignore your own bodily signals of discomfort for somebody else's gratification. And that message about bodily autonomy is also something that's very key for women when it comes to their sexual debut, when they start being sexual with someone else. And that bodily autonomy teaches us to discount how our body's feeling, to push down feelings of discomfort, to not be too much, to not ask for too much. And there are other messages wrapped in there as well for women around putting other people's needs before your own, looking after someone else's needs first.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  And we know that young women, when they go into sexual encounters, they're often judging the success of those encounters, their early sexual experiences with someone else, not about their own experience, but did he have a good time? And did I feel I looked good enough?

• 9:14Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 9:15Speaker 02

  And so that question around pleasure and joy and connection, you know, there are lots of good things to get from sex, that's not the bar that people are going into sex with, that young women especially are going into sex with. And so these are some of the reasons that we have an orgasm gap. You know, there's another big reason, and it starts with a P, and it's called patriarchy, which is that we live in a society where men's needs are sometimes prioritized over women's. And a lot of the men having sex don't realize that that's what's happening with the orgasm gap. They don't realize that the way in which we see real sex in our society, penis and vagina penetration, and we call it like that's the main thing, that's why we have language

• 10:00Speaker 02

  like foreplay and virginity, which I never use, because they're elevating this type of sex as real sex. That sex...

• 10:07Speaker 03

  Wait, so foreplay and virginity, like, that is so good, because virginity is penetration.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  It's all base, yeah. Virginity means, how we use it in our society, it means the first time that you have penetrative sex with the penis, doesn't it? But why have we elevated that particular sexual experience as the pinnacle of someone's sexual debut? Why not the first time you have an orgasm with someone else?

• 10:28Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  Why not the first time you ever felt truly in the moment and relaxed during sex? Why is it that particular sexual act?

• 10:38Speaker 03

  Wait, we need to think up a word for like, the first time you have...

• 10:42Speaker 02

  So I use sexual debut, and that's not my word, by the way.

• 10:45Speaker 03

  Can I just say, I love that sexual...

• 10:46Speaker 02

  Science word, yeah. And it doesn't have to mean a particular thing. It just means the process of moving out of your sexuality from yourself with someone else, and the stat you might take towards that. And foreplay is the same. I never use the word foreplay because it's the same thing. It's saying all these are the types of sex that...

• 11:07Speaker 03

  Incidentally, women often find more pleasurable aren't real sex. Oh my God.

• 11:15Speaker 03

  I'd never thought of foreplay like that.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:18Speaker 03

  Karen.

• 11:18Speaker 02

  I'm sorry to ruin these words for you.

• 11:21Speaker 03

  No, I just love you so much. This is so good. This is, Karen, this is so important.

• 11:28Speaker 02

  It is important. It is because I'm sure at some point today, we're going to get on to talk about desire.

• 11:35Speaker 03

  We're definitely gonna do that.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  We're talking about a societal idea of what constitutes real sex. We're about to talk about the fact that that type of sex is the least pleasurable act for women, statistically speaking. Doesn't mean that women don't enjoy it. It means compared to other sexual acts, it's least likely to produce an orgasm.

• 11:53Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 11:54Speaker 02

  And yet, our language, our expectations and our ideas about sex reinforce the idea that this is what sex is. And that is a problem.

• 12:04Speaker 03

  How do we change that? It feels so part of culture.

• 12:09Speaker 02

  I was thinking about this recently. I was talking to a friend who had, who has a teenage daughter. And we were talking about vibrators and I was talking about the fact, so I've got sons, but I was talking about the fact that if I had a teenage daughter, I would buy her a vibrator. And that I think there's something really powerful about getting to know the capacity that your body has to produce pleasure before your sexual debut, because that, combined with teaching young people that you should expect pleasure. And you should expect to feel good about yourself and you should expect joy and connection.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  That those are things and fun, you know, these are things that you should expect that we need to set that bar. Because then when women are going into their sexual debut, if their experience alone is, hey, this is a lot of fun. And then their experience with a partner is not that, they'll have the confidence to be able to say, hold on a minute. This isn't quite doing it for me and I need sex instead. Or maybe just to discount that partner and find someone else next time, you know, there's, there's something in that empowerment of that knowledge that I think is quite key, but.

• 13:27Speaker 03

  I love the word empowerment as well.

• 13:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:29Speaker 03

  So important. I think this idea of, oh, I know what I wanted to talk to you about, masturbating and sex toys and girls. Now, if you are a parent and you are thinking, well, I don't, this is encouraging them to be sexy. You know, if you get them a toy and some lube, you know, you're basically saying, but it's like, yes, that's what.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  What's wrong with being sexual?

• 13:56Speaker 03

  How do mums or dads, and should dads do it? And is that weird if it's a single dad or whatever? How do you talk to your kid?

• 14:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:04Speaker 03

  About masturbating? I mean, I think, I think boys are more likely to find it alone.

• 14:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it's, it's a big topic, obviously, but there are a couple of key principles that are useful to hold in mind. Depending on the age of your kids, so there'll be some people listening that'll have much younger kids and some that have got older kids. Ideally, you want to have started conversations really young about a couple of key things, bodily autonomy.

• 14:28Speaker 03

  And by that you mean I can, I can do what I like with my body?

• 14:32Speaker 02

  Exactly. I'm not going to get forced to finish the food on my plate if I don't want to eat it. I'm not going to get forced to kiss someone when all of my instincts tell me I'm uncomfortable. Bodily autonomy, consent around, is it okay if, a bit like you did with me when I came in, you were like, I'm a touchy feely person, is that okay? But just normalizing conversations about, oh, I really want to give you a big squeeze. Is that all right? You know, normalizing those conversations and reinforcing if a child doesn't want to do something and a, another family member is like, come on, you know, give me a hug. It's okay to be their advocate and say, we do a variety of things, sometimes high fives.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  Sometimes, you know, a salute, sometimes it's a hug, you know, whatever little Johnny's happy with is good with us. So being the advocate for that. And pleasure, pleasure is something that for all of us comes in and out of our day. You know, you and I are sat here with a cup of tea and a cup of coffee. And there is pleasure inherent in that coffee. There is pleasure in non-sexual touch. Allowing conversations about pleasure at home and the fact that our bodies are pleasure giving machines. It's not a sexual conversation that it's, you know, the child that likes a massage last thing at night before they fall asleep. And it's not dirty to talk about that feeling good in your body.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  We want to let young people know that our bodies have capacity for pleasure. It's not just the sexual parts of our body. And pleasure is a gorgeous thing in life. You know, there aren't many free things in life that can make us happy and there are lots of small pleasures throughout the day.

• 16:12Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  In physical sensations, it's little things and it's nice to kind of revel in that and teach that as something to notice and appreciate. Some parts of our body produce pleasure that we can enjoy and it's completely okay to enjoy, but we might do privately. So when we're talking with them about genitals, and of course we're using the right words, we're not using front bottom.

• 16:36Speaker 03

  Yes, okay.

• 16:37Speaker 02

  It's tempting to do that and no shade at all if people have been using those words because they're the words that they were taught. And of course, they're uncomfortable using the right words. It's really okay, but at some point, maybe try and transition and say, you know how we've called it this? This is the right word for it. These are the parts. Vulva is the word for everything down there. For, for girls genitals. And so that's quite important.

• 17:01Speaker 03

  Vulva, I don't know, sounds almost better in a way. There's something about vagina that sounds a bit like vulva sounds.

• 17:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:09Speaker 03

  Sort of.

• 17:10Speaker 02

  It's a nice word, isn't it?

• 17:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:12Speaker 02

  And we can teach them that those parts of your body also bring pleasure. And that you might find that touching them in a certain way brings pleasure. You could even comment and say, I've seen how sometimes you rub against your teddy and obviously that feels good for you. This is really okay and it's something to do privately.

• 17:33Speaker 03

  Yes, okay. And that won't be shaming them. That's like saying it's okay.

• 17:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. That's how we normalize that conversation. And obviously there's different parts that might come in, age appropriate. A bit later, you might introduce more information. You might talk about the clitoris. You might talk about.

• 17:49Speaker 03

  What would be age appropriate to do that?

• 17:52Speaker 02

  So you might want to look at a diagram, maybe like a little cartoon diagram of all the bits of the vulva. You might talk about the fact that, you know, there's a, there's a part called the clitoris, that's a little kind of pea sized lump and you could point out where it is, but you could say it's much bigger under the body than.

• 18:09Speaker 03

  And when would you do that though?

• 18:11Speaker 02

  It depends on the child really because.

• 18:13Speaker 03

  Is there asking?

• 18:13Speaker 02

  For some people, if they're asking, you might want to give them the briefest bit of info and see if they ask more. There are some brilliant books out there.

• 18:21Speaker 03

  Are there?

• 18:21Speaker 02

  Brilliant books. In fact, if you want, in the show notes, we.

• 18:24Speaker 03

  Yes, let's do that.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  Brilliant books and books that embody some of these principles.

• 18:30Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 18:31Speaker 02

  The important thing is sex is not something to be ashamed of. It's something that we've learned as adults. But we can raise them to not feel ashamed. So these conversations don't have to be difficult. In our mind, they're difficult because we're embarrassed. We think it's a slightly wrong subject or we've not had that taught with our parents, but to kids, they're interested to know and they might ask a question, we can give them a brief bit of information. And maybe later on they'll ask a more detailed question and all children are different in terms of when's the right time for that. But I think as long as you hold these fundamental principles that it's nothing to be ashamed of, it's a source of joy and pleasure.

• 19:14Speaker 02

  We're all sexual beings. You know, lots of young children show extremely innocent sexual behaviour, like masturbation, like touching their bodies, like curiosity. And obviously in teenage years, that develops some more and it might develop more of an interest and a more, an awareness of our own sexuality. It's normal across the lifespan to have part of you that is a sexual being and we shouldn't be frightened of it.

• 19:40Speaker 03

  Hmm. It's interesting, isn't it? Because even I, I feel like I am a very liberal, open minded person. I have always talked to my kids about it. We've had Frank, you know, I've said, is there anything you want to ask? Being pregnant was quite helpful.

• 19:54Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 19:55Speaker 03

  Um, how did it get in there? Mummy laid an egg was a book by Babette Cole.

• 20:00Speaker 02

  I remember that.

• 20:00Speaker 03

  And it was like the parents were saying, you know, there was a seed in mommy's tummy and it got watered. And, you know, it was like making up all these stories and then somebody went, okay, actually let's tell you the truth.

• 20:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 20:13Speaker 03

  But even to me as a liberal person, so my daughter, my eldest daughter was five when my youngest son was born. And she was asking me, how did it get in there?

• 20:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:22Speaker 03

  And the actual end answer in the book was a daddy has a tube and it fits in mummy. And from that tube comes a sperm and it develops the egg in mommy's tummy and that builds a baby. And actually she went, okay.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:40Speaker 03

  And that was enough. She didn't ask me anymore about it. But then I turned over the page and there was like, and this is the way that all the animals in the world do the same thing. So it was kind of showing us that like humans are just like animals. We all procreate in the same way. That was very sweet. But it also showed, I think, here are some ways that mums and dads fit together.

• 21:01Speaker 02

  Is there the pictures where it's like?

• 21:04Speaker 03

  All the different sexual positions they've got. Have you seen it?

• 21:06Speaker 02

  I remember this.

• 21:07Speaker 03

  Party hats on.

• 21:09Speaker 02

  I mean, it's, it's very sex positive and then it's also a little bit clashing with the rest of the content, which is we won't say too much.

• 21:18Speaker 03

  No.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  And then all of a sudden it's, they're on an exercise ball.

• 21:21Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  It's very funny.

• 21:24Speaker 03

  But what was interesting was the first few times, probably until she was six or something, I just sticked those two pages together, just because I couldn't, couldn't show it to her. And then one day I opened it on that page and she just went, and then turned the page. It wasn't, it, it was, I was putting the stuff on it.

• 21:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, at least it looked fun in that picture.

• 21:48Speaker 03

  Yes, well, this is, this is what I mean. I, I think, I think you talking about it being a positive experience was what made me think about it, was that I think the party hats and the streamers was to say, look how fun it can be.

• 22:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is really fun.

• 22:02Speaker 03

  It's a party.

• 22:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it was a little bit jarring with the rest of it.

• 22:05Speaker 03

  It was a bit, okay, good. I, I would like to talk about the fact that I think pornography has led boys to think, or men to think that women orgasm all the time, everywhere, just through penetrative sex. And I would just like you to give us some stats on what it actually looks like.

• 22:26Speaker 02

  All right, let's do that. So, a couple of decades ago, we used to have this idea in society, and also to be fair in sex research and sex therapy, that women's orgasms were trickier than men's, that they were harder to come by, pardon the pun, that they took longer, that they required more effort. And this was a kind of enduring belief in society. And probably one of the reasons that we didn't really question why when men and women had sex together, it would be more common for men to orgasm more than women, and I'll come to the stats in a minute. It's also related to that idea of penis and vagina penetration as the main course of

• 23:09Speaker 02

  sex, which, as I've already mentioned, doesn't benefit women as much as it benefits men, anatomically speaking. And that was a fact that everyone kind of took in and believed and that played out in people's sexual experiences. It's probably the reason why 50 to 65% of women say they regularly or often fake orgasm with a partner.

• 23:32Speaker 03

  Is it that much?

• 23:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's really high. And we know that.

• 23:37Speaker 03

  My god, that's so sad.

• 23:38Speaker 02

  It's really sad. And they're doing that sometimes because they want to communicate it's okay for sex to end, and again, we've not got the words, so they do it that way. Sometimes it's because orgasms are sometimes seen as a masculinity achievement for men, and it's wanting them to feel good because we're putting other people's needs ahead of our own. Sometimes, and this is the most common one, it's because we don't know what's normal about our own pleasure. And so this is where the orgasm gap comes in. We know that the clitoris is the source of sexual pleasure for women. Obviously, that whole area is erogenous, so it's not to say that it doesn't feel pleasurable to have vaginal penetration, but the clitoris is equivocal in structure to the penis.

• 24:22Speaker 02

  So, having, I mean.

• 24:24Speaker 03

  What does that mean?

• 24:25Speaker 02

  So.

• 24:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, great.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  So we've got this one here. This is a life-size model.

• 24:29Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 24:30Speaker 02

  Of the clitoris. And this part here, the glands, the tip of the clitoris, is the part that if people were to look, to maybe move back the clitoral hood, and everyone's anatomy is slightly different, they might see a tiny pea-sized lump, that's this bit. The rest of it, and as you can see, it's quite big.

• 24:48Speaker 03

  It's big.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  Is underneath the skin. And so, this structure, when we were in the womb, would have either turned into a penis or a clitoris. So this glands here, the tip, is the same as the glands of the penis for men, which of course is the most sensitive bit. And then we've got the crura, the legs, we've got the bulbs, these are, this is erectile tissue, these bits are equivocal to the shaft of the penis. So, the tissue is the same tissue, it just turns into different things.

• 25:17Speaker 03

  Oh my god, I didn't know that.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  I did not know that, so it's good information to learn. And the vagina, of course, sits here. So, it's not to say that vaginal penetration doesn't stimulate the clitoris, because it often does, and some people can have orgasms that way. But having sex without touch to this bit here is a bit like men having sex without any touch to their penis. It's very unlikely to produce orgasm, and we know that 80% of women are going to need that kind of stimulation for orgasm. Only 20% can orgasm through indirect stimulation of the clitoris through, through the vagina. So, this is important, because if you don't know that, you think you're abnormal.

• 25:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, and also, I think, for a man, if, you know, 80% of women are not going to come with penetrative sex alone, but I think sometimes men feel offended if you don't.

• 26:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:15Speaker 03

  And it's good that they know that that's not the norm. And if some extra help with some touch to the clitoris, either from the woman or the man at the same time.

• 26:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:25Speaker 03

  Is going to help you get there.

• 26:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:28Speaker 03

  It's not an insult. It's so funny how I hear sometimes people say, no, no, don't touch, like, I want to do it, but it's like, actually, I can't achieve orgasm like that. It's not going to work.

• 26:39Speaker 02

  I know what works.

• 26:40Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 26:41Speaker 02

  It's interesting because if you think about, and we're focusing here particularly about men and women when they have sex together, because that's where the biggest orgasm gap happens, so we'll, we'll talk about the numbers in a second. But if you think about those men, they're also sold an idea that sex is penis and vagina, like we all are. So, because it's their most pleasurable sexual act, how are they supposed to know?

• 27:03Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  That it's no one else's?

• 27:04Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  And if the last five people faked orgasm.

• 27:08Speaker 03

  Oh god, I mean, it's so unhelpful.

• 27:10Speaker 02

  Then they don't have that information unless they learn it. And so, it's a really tricky vicious cycle. So, you asked what we can do, and one of the things that we can do is to let people know what's normal. And if you go into a sexual experience thinking, well, I'm setting the bar at pleasure, then you can find a way to communicate potentially and say, I like this type of sex, I'm not as bothered about that type of sex, I'm happy to do a bit of that as long as this happens at the same time, that that is not the conversation that women are having, and that's why the orgasm gap exists. So, the stats are, contrary to what we used to think decades ago, people of all genders can orgasm in the same amount of minutes, just as reliably.

• 27:53Speaker 02

  So 95% of people can orgasm through masturbation in around about five minutes. Obviously, don't worry if it takes you longer, you know, it's not, it's not a race. But what I'm saying is there is no difference in anatomy. This is not anatomical, this orgasm gap. Does that make sense?

• 28:09Speaker 03

  Yes, totally. So everybody can achieve it.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:13Speaker 03

  I, I feel like practice makes perfect as well, on yourself.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 28:18Speaker 03

  So, you know, if you are, like, not able to do that, spend time on your own and learn.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  And so there may be people listening that haven't experienced that yet. And there is a higher chance of that if you didn't masturbate as a child or as a young person. So masturbation is one of the, the best ways of learning to orgasm, and then it's easier to do it with a partner. So people should absolutely do that by themselves, if they can, get a sex toy that will help with that, like a clitoral vibrator.

• 28:46Speaker 03

  Wait, I'd like to ask you about that very quickly.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 28:49Speaker 03

  Is it possible to use a vibrator too much and then it makes it harder to come?

• 28:56Speaker 02

  No.

• 28:56Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 28:57Speaker 02

  Quite the opposite. It's, there is a period of a few minutes after orgasm where the, the nerves might be a little bit.

• 29:08Speaker 03

  Sensitive.

• 29:09Speaker 02

  Bejazzled. Yep, they might, they might just need a minute, you know? And that, at that point, the, it might be difficult to feel much else, but that is a temporary thing. The use of a sex toy, it's the other way around. The easier you find it to orgasm, the easier it is to orgasm.

• 29:28Speaker 03

  Full time.

• 29:29Speaker 02

  Because it's a learned habit. The conditions for orgasm, just in case anyone's listening and thinking, but I've tried that and it doesn't work, what we really need to have an orgasm is to be as turned on as we can be in our head, so we can use fantasy, erotica, audio erotica, whatever works for us if we're doing it alone. We need the right kind of physical stimulation, and sometimes we need to learn what that is, but things like a clitoral vibrator can be great for learning that. And we need to be in the moment as much as possible, rather than in our heads, and this is one of the hardest ones.

• 30:01Speaker 03

  Simon needs to be picked up from school.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  Exactly. Or is that the cat knocking something over? Or, one of the worst ones, I wonder if I'm going to orgasm.

• 30:10Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 30:11Speaker 02

  Or, oh, am I, am I near to it, am I not near to it? That can be really hard for people to try and be in their body and not in their head. And it can take a little bit of learning to be much more present in our bodies, generally.

• 30:26Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 30:26Speaker 02

  But with those criteria and with practice over time, our bodies are capable.

• 30:33Speaker 03

  Right. I need women to listen to this sponsored message from British Heart Foundation. Because we are finally talking more about what happens to us during menopause. The sleep, the brain fog, the hormones, all of it. But, we still don't talk nearly enough about our hearts. Cardiovascular disease is the biggest killer of women over 45 worldwide. And after menopause, the risk increases significantly. Now, please don't hear that and panic. I'm telling you this because I think women deserve to know about this, and because there are brilliant people working every day to do something about it. British Heart Foundation funds life-saving research into preventing, diagnosing, and

• 31:17Speaker 03

  treating women's cardiovascular disease. More research means more breakthroughs, and those breakthroughs can mean more time, more time to live, more time to start over, more time to begin again. To help fund life-saving research, please visit bhf.org.uk/keepusbeating to donate now and keep us beating.

• 31:44Speaker 03

  I partnered with Do Health for this episode and I want to tell you why. Forty-six percent of Do Health members showed signs of hidden cardiovascular risk after doing their blood test. Forty-six percent. And do you know what? They had absolutely no idea. No symptoms, no big dramatic warning. And look, I get why people put this stuff off because results can feel really scary. You know, you think, what if I find out something I can't, oh, no. But finding things early can change everything. And that's what's great about what Dr. Rongen has done with Do Health. This app gives you something clear enough to question, understand, and then act on. It checks your blood three times a year, including lots of things many of us have never

• 32:29Speaker 03

  even been tested for. And then it explains what your body is telling you clearly and calmly, and then gives you a weekly plan with an in-app coach so you know what to do next. Not more worry, it's a way forward. Go to dohealth.co/beginagain and use code BEGINAGAIN to lock in early access pricing.

• 32:54Speaker 00

  Ultra running shoes are all about space, the space to go further, to feel better, to do something you never thought possible. And this space starts with Ultra Fit. Unlike traditional running shoes, Ultra Fit gives toes more room to move naturally. So every step is strong, balanced, and comfortable. Whatever you're leasing up for, stay out there with Ultra. Shop now at ultrarunning.com. That's A-L-T-R-A running.com.

• 33:24Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Redken. Sabrina Carpenter is on repeat. Dry hair isn't. Let's change the tune. Meet Redken All Soft All-In Deep Conditioning Hair Mask. Up to 96 hours of hair moisture, softness, and shine with the All Soft system. Try the Star Treatment, the All Soft Deep Conditioning Hair Mask, which provides 12 times more moisture and helps reduce frizz for up to 72 hours. That's a hair care hit worth putting on repeat.

• 33:54Speaker 03

  So I want to talk to you about the talking. So I quite like this idea, like if you're having dinner or something and you go, you know, I was just thinking about like the next time we have sex.

• 34:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:07Speaker 03

  But almost the minute you start talking about it, it's like, I want to do it now. You know what I mean? Like it's, it's that, it's a brilliant thing that you think, oh, I don't know how to bring it up. But actually, if we can find the words to say that we know is okay to use with the other person, rather than being a finger pointing, I want more of this, or you're not doing this.

• 34:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're no good at this.

• 34:32Speaker 03

  It's like, I would really love it if we could try this. It's actually like, really? You know, or something like that, I don't know. But it's where it's fun and interesting and not daunting to the other person.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 34:44Speaker 03

  What do you think are the best ways that you could talk to somebody about it? Is the bed too late kind of thing? Like, once you've got to the bed?

• 34:52Speaker 02

  It depends. So I would say the first thing to look at is how easy do you find talking about deep or challenging conversations generally in your relationship? And how good is your communication? Are you, can you talk about things without it ending in a row? Can you?

• 35:08Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 35:08Speaker 02

  Can you listen deeply? Can you, can you say sorry when you've got things wrong? Can you, you know, what's that communication like as a starting point?

• 35:16Speaker 03

  Learn to do those things.

• 35:17Speaker 02

  You can learn, you can learn. And you can find so many resources on social media and online of places that will give you the skills to do that, if that's where you need to start. If you can do that, but it's that talking about sex is difficult, then I often say the best way to start is to bring in a kind of incidental conversation about it. So not about your own sex life. The best way of doing it for people that are listening would be, I was listening to this podcast with Davina McCall. And.

• 35:46Speaker 03

  Get a pen and paper.

• 35:47Speaker 02

  Pen and paper. Send it to your partners or your partner and say, I was listening to this and it really got me thinking. They were talking about how talking about sex is more highly correlated with a good sex life than liking the same things sexually or the amount of sex that you're having. Talking about sex is the number one defining factor that keeps sex good over decades. And I thought to myself, we don't talk about it enough. So frame it that way.

• 36:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's so good.

• 36:16Speaker 02

  This is something we could get better at. It's something that's.

• 36:20Speaker 03

  And it will help both of us.

• 36:21Speaker 02

  Exactly. And you could also throw in a little bit of, you know, if this feels right for you, you could throw in a bit of, I really miss how we used to do this more. You know, we used to have long Sunday mornings in bed before the kids came along. Or we used to have date nights where we talked about sex more than we do. And I know that life's got in the way, but I really miss that to you. You know, bring it in, in that way. So you're kind of normalizing the idea that it's fallen off the agenda and talk about what could be useful of putting it back on the agenda. So a bit like you were just saying about a conversation about sex, you know, I feel really close to you when we talk about sex.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  Or it gets me thinking about sex, which helps me get in a sexual headspace. Or it's just occurred to me that it's been so long since we've talked about it. We're different people now and maybe the things we want have changed, which is also a thing.

• 37:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:16Speaker 02

  What do you think? You know, are you interested in doing this? So you're not coming from a place of, we need to talk about this. We've got a massive problem. You're coming from a place of, I kind of miss this and I think it would be good for us to do more of it. What about you?

• 37:29Speaker 03

  I think the other thing that's so lovely about all of that is that sometimes you can really love somebody, live together, say you've got kids, you know what, like midlife gets like.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 37:42Speaker 03

  Busy work, you might be a bit peripal or you might have kids like, and it all seems to happen at the same time.

• 37:49Speaker 02

  Doesn't it just?

• 37:50Speaker 03

  And even just talking in that much of an intimate way is bonding.

• 37:56Speaker 02

  It is.

• 37:57Speaker 03

  It's a re-cementing together, even before you've even had sex.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  It is.

• 38:01Speaker 03

  You feel, it's not about holding hands or anything. It's like feeling.

• 38:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:06Speaker 03

  Closer in some way.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  Emotional intimacy.

• 38:08Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 38:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and actually talking about sex, because it requires an element of opening up, because it can feel a bit tricky, because it can feel a bit exposing. We know that it actually is really good for deepening emotional intimacy. So even if all you're doing is having a conversation about sex, you'll probably feel, as long as you can listen and not feel defensive and not attack each other's perspective.

• 38:34Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  You'll feel a lot closer sexually at the end of that conversation than you did at the beginning, even without having sex.

• 38:43Speaker 03

  Say a couple does have the chat.

• 38:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 38:45Speaker 03

  And one person goes a bit like, we always have to, suddenly a bit defensive.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:50Speaker 03

  And the temptation is to kind of leave that conversation and go, ah, and you know, I think one of the things that Michael and I are good at, if we act a bit arsey, which sometimes someone is going to do, or feel a bit defensive, or we will always come back and go, I just want to say I'm sorry about that.

• 39:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:07Speaker 03

  And it's not a sorry, it's a, you know, we mean it.

• 39:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I reacted impulsively and it was a first instinct response and I didn't mean it.

• 39:15Speaker 03

  I didn't mean it and I take it back. And I would like to just, let's revisit that because it's unfinished business or whatever.

• 39:22Speaker 02

  That's good.

• 39:23Speaker 03

  But how do you get there? And if you haven't got that, how, are you done?

• 39:30Speaker 02

  You can preempt it, of course. You could say, how can we talk about this in a way that we both feel open to hearing? Like, you know, we both might feel a little bit spiky and, and it's not intended in that way. Sometimes it's good to start the conversation with things that are going well. So you could talk about, you know what I really love about our sex life? And you could reel off three things. And that's already putting someone in a position of feeling as though you're saying things are actually really quite good. And then you can follow that up with, and you know what I miss? And it's no one's fault. It's just fallen off the agenda. And you can put that in. So you could preempt it, you could go about it that way. Sometimes, and I, you know, sometimes come across people in my work whose partners are

• 40:15Speaker 02

  in this place sadly, sometimes people do not want to have the conversation. And that is very sad because there are a lot of ways around it and we're talking about them now. So it's something to feel hopeful about, but sometimes people just can't, they can't go there. It's too difficult. It's too hard for them. Problems have gone on too long and they can't address it. And that is extremely difficult because it takes two people to improve a sex life. And that's really challenging. Then there are decisions to be made.

• 40:47Speaker 03

  Sometimes there are decisions to be made in that respect.

• 40:50Speaker 02

  And I often say, you know, sometimes that is linked to problematic ideas that we have in our society about monogamy. You know, this idea that humans are monogamous and that you should just, you'll always just feel like having sex with the person that you love and you never need to work at it. And that person will always be there and that there's no attention or nurturing that you need to give because it's just what humans do. And of course, humans can be monogamous, but it's not necessarily a natural state for humans to be monogamous. And it's, it shouldn't be expected that your sex life will stay good without some sort of intentional effort or nurturing. It needs that. And unfortunately, sometimes people don't have that in their minds and aren't able to kind of bring, come to the table.

• 41:35Speaker 03

  They just expect.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  Expect it to be fine. Or to not have to talk about it. And some of the couples that can have the greatest sexual problems are the ones that didn't have to talk about it in the beginning because it just worked fine and no one had to say anything and it all happened silently. And we change, our bodies change, our lives change, our needs change, our sexuality evolves. And we have to have, our relationship has to be able to support that evolution and growth of a sex life because otherwise we'll evolve out of it. It will become stale for us. It will become irrelevant for us. And that's where the communication comes in.

• 42:14Speaker 04

  Are you only taking Ancient and Brave collagen because you're a brand massive?

• 42:20Speaker 03

  So our long time sponsor, Ancient and Brave, has sent a polygraph examiner to our studio. Must admit, it feels a bit aggressive because I only ever say lovely things about them. Honestly, Patty, I do. Okay, Patty, I'm ready to go.

• 42:35Speaker 04

  Davina, if we searched your kitchen today, would we find Ancient and Brave True Collagen?

• 42:41Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 42:43Speaker 04

  True. Can you describe how Ancient and Brave collagen tastes?

• 42:49Speaker 03

  I have it in my tea and I mean, it's pretty much tasteless.

• 42:52Speaker 04

  True.

• 42:54Speaker 04

  Is Ancient and Brave just a beauty product?

• 42:57Speaker 03

  Absolutely not. I have seen benefits in my hair, but I take it as an inside job for my tendons and my ligaments.

• 43:04Speaker 04

  That's true. What is the secret to getting great results?

• 43:08Speaker 03

  Consistency. It doesn't stay in your body for weeks and weeks. So actually consistency is key.

• 43:14Speaker 04

  That is true. Are you only taking Ancient and Brave collagen because you're a brand in Masseter?

• 43:21Speaker 03

  No, I trust them implicitly. They are brilliant.

• 43:25Speaker 04

  That's true.

• 43:27Speaker 03

  Doing good, aren't I, Patty?

• 43:28Speaker 04

  Ooh.

• 43:29Speaker 03

  Ancient and Brave are a B Corp and proud members of 1% for the planet, which means that 1% of all their sales goes directly to environmental causes. So go to ancientandbrave.earth/planet and use BEGINAGAIN, all in capitals, for 20% off your order.

• 43:46Speaker 04

  That, Davina, was true.

• 43:52Speaker 00

  Ultra running shoes are all about space, the space to go further, to feel better, to do something you never thought possible. And this space starts with Ultra Fit. Unlike traditional running shoes, Ultra Fit gives toes more room to move naturally. So every step is strong, balanced and comfortable. Whatever you're lacing up for, stay out there with Ultra. Shop now at ultrarunning.com. That's A-L-T-R-A running.com.

• 44:22Speaker 03

  What happens if your partner says, well, I'd quite like this and you go, not on your Nelly? You're thinking, oh my God, what? Who are you? And then you can't shame someone.

• 44:36Speaker 02

  No.

• 44:36Speaker 03

  So what happens if you really?

• 44:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I would say that conversation about wants and preferences that have never been shared before is a more advanced conversation. In fact, in How to Not Let Having Kids Ruin Your Sex Life, in that book, I've put in there a scaffold of communication. There's a whole chapter on it to help people move from, look, help, we haven't talked about this. To the really complex conversations about wants, needs, fantasies, the really challenging sexual communication stuff. Because you can't really just go in at that level. What I would say is that people can gradually, with the things that we've already talked about, open up a conversation about sex that's not about them. So they could listen to a podcast and talk about what they've heard, depersonalize it a little bit.

• 45:22Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 45:22Speaker 02

  Think about some of the simple things about sex. There's lots of this in both of my books, but things like, you know, what do you enjoy about sex? How does sex make you feel? Why do you think it's important for a relationship? Learning those things about each other first.

• 45:38Speaker 03

  It must be quite funny when you've been with somebody for 20 years and you find out something you never knew about them, but the way it's quite nice.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  It's lovely. And one of the most fascinating things about talking about sex is that we know sharing these things improves sexual satisfaction. So it's really interesting because you don't actually have to be on the same page to experience a benefit to your sexual satisfaction from learning these things about another, because you're essentially learning each other, learning about each other more deeply, more intimately, in a way that no one else knows about them. You, you know, you gave the example of what if they want this and I want that. And, you know, for some couples that can navigate that, there may be a flavor of this that might feel acceptable or a little nod to this that might be okay. Or maybe it's just not okay, but there are other things that are okay that they can do together.

• 46:30Speaker 02

  But that conversation requires a real ability to be vulnerable and open, to have trust between you. And that takes a little bit of building up. So there's plenty of how to in there.

• 46:44Speaker 03

  So there's lots of tools.

• 46:46Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 46:46Speaker 03

  Look, I'm going to hold up here again, lots of tools for people if they do want to start talking or change something or have been in a long-term relationship and don't know how to find each other again.

• 46:59Speaker 02

  Exactly. And conversation prompts as well. I've put loads of conversation prompts. Ask this question, listen to each other's answer. Ask this question to really guide people through it because people sometimes don't know where to start.

• 47:10Speaker 03

  And what would you say, I mean, I don't think we like saying no-nos, but there are like, you know, I mean, obviously shaming has got to be one. If somebody suggests something and you go, uh, like, uh, you know, kind of try not to shame someone when they're being brave and telling you something.

• 47:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, because actually it's a gift that they're giving you, which is there's an intimacy in sharing something that's erotic for them. And you don't, they're not sharing it because they want you to be exactly the same. They're sharing it because they want you to know something about them that no one else knows.

• 47:47Speaker 03

  Karen, that's a gift. That's such a nice way of looking at it.

• 47:51Speaker 02

  And there's these acts of kind of really knowing someone, they can only come through that talking. And a term that we use in, in, in therapy for this is the difference that makes the difference. So it's the something that comes in that actually makes an enormous amount of difference to people's understanding or the meaning that they make of it. And this happens all the time with sex. And one of the things that I think is often unfortunate for men is that there is such a strong social story that men are always thinking about sex, you know, just want to kind of satisfy themselves physically, wanting to scratch an itch, always got sex on the brain. And none of those things are true.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  And it really does men a disservice because if that's what you believe, then when your male partner is trying to initiate sex and maybe it's happening in quite a clumsy way and maybe it's the wrong timing and there's lots of reasons why that could be challenging for someone. But actually, sometimes if they can share what's behind it, so they might say, actually, I feel really disconnected from you and I just want to feel close. That difference can make a huge difference because it moves the idea of them. They've just got sex on the brain. It's not me they want. They just want the physical release to actually, they want to feel connected. And that's one of the ways that they feel connected. And it still doesn't mean you need to say yes to it.

• 49:17Speaker 02

  But that, the meaning-making that comes through talking can make a huge difference to how open we feel about whether we might consider going along with that thing or not.

• 49:28Speaker 03

  Yes. I think there's another thing that sometimes happens in very long-term relationships with men and women is that women are tired and they are more likely to not want to have sex. Or it's just, they're just exhausted physically and mentally, you know, physically and mentally. And then the men become nervous because they are being rejected quite a lot. And then there becomes, comes this weird negative dance that keeps happening where even if the man tries to do something nice during the day, like hold his partner's hand, they're like, oh God, he's going to want sex tonight. You know, like any niceness becomes a, oh God.

• 50:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:13Speaker 03

  Um, what is that? I mean, I bet that's all in here. Yeah.

• 50:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, there. Big topic. Let's get into it. Desire. This is where the root of this comes from. So desire is really easy to come by in the early stages of a relationship. It's.

• 50:28Speaker 03

  What do you consider the early stages?

• 50:29Speaker 02

  So sex science would say around about 18 months to two years, we see changes in feeling like sex out of the blue. Again, a bit like we talked about with the clitoris and orgasms, this is not commonly known information. And so most people who experience a drop in spontaneous desire, which is the sense of feeling like it out of the blue, after 18 months or two years of being with a partner are blaming themselves or blaming their relationship. There's something wrong with me. I have a low sex drive. I'm not feeling like it. This has happened to me in every relationship I've been in, therefore it's me. It's not. It's, it's a known feature of long-term relationships and the reasons are predictability, familiarity.

• 51:12Speaker 02

  Our brains habituate to the same sexual stimulus over time, which means the same sexual partner, if the sex looks the same, starts the same way, happens in the same place, our brains have less, less interest in it. This is called the Coolidge effect. A new partner.

• 51:27Speaker 03

  Coolidge?

• 51:28Speaker 02

  Yes, the Coolidge effect. And it basically means that if you introduce a new partner, you might see a spike in that spontaneous desire again. So it's a natural fact of the longer we've been with someone. It doesn't mean we can't have spontaneous desire. It doesn't mean some of us aren't feeling that all of the time. It just means your chances of not feeling like sex out of the blue will drop for all genders in a long-term relationship. However, we do know that they tend to drop more for women, this spontaneous desire. So much so that it's considered normal for women to say they never feel like sex with their long-term partner or they rarely feel like sex. So saying that doesn't indicate that you've got a problem with desire.

• 52:12Speaker 02

  It indicates that probably you're in a long-term relationship and that spontaneous desire has dropped off a little bit. This is important information. Incidentally, it's also about 15% of men that experience this. So it's really common for it to be the other way around.

• 52:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:28Speaker 02

  And a lot of people listening, I can promise you, will be reassured if we mention that because I have people all the time that say to me, they're perhaps a woman in a relationship with a man and they're the higher desire partner. And it's their male partner that's never feeling like it. And they say, I feel really abnormal. Don't men always want sex? And we'll say, no, that's not, that's not how it is. There are plenty of men that feel they could take it or leave it and never think about sex. So not knowing that puts us in a position of thinking that there's a problem when that happens. When what we should be doing is learning a little bit more about, well, how does desire work?

• 53:06Speaker 02

  What is it in fact? And I bet if we sampled people listening or watching today and asked them, what do you think desire is? Where does it come from? How does it work? What do you think they would say?

• 53:19Speaker 03

  I think most people would think of desire as wanting someone.

• 53:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:26Speaker 03

  I think, and I would use it literally as broad as that, is like a want in any way.

• 53:31Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 53:31Speaker 03

  Want to be near, want to smell.

• 53:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:34Speaker 03

  Want to touch. It's not necessarily about sex, it's like just.

• 53:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:39Speaker 03

  A desire is like wanting to feel. I mean, sometimes it might, it could be like wanting to unzip somebody and crawl in and fall asleep in their tummy because you're feeling a bit sad or.

• 53:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 53:51Speaker 03

  It's a closeness.

• 53:53Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 53:53Speaker 03

  An intimacy.

• 53:53Speaker 02

  A want to meet someone.

• 53:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:56Speaker 02

  And most people have an idea that that want is kind of within them. It's coming from something within them, whether it's their biology, whether it's their psychology. And a lot of people have an idea that that there is such a thing as a libido or a sex drive that is within them and is a little bit like a drive to move towards this behaviour of sex, as you say, the wanting. And that's not how desire works. So desire can't operate like that. It's not a drive. It's not within us. It's not physical. It's more psychological. It's a bit like you said. It's a motivation to move towards the act of sex and sex can mean anything with someone.

• 54:40Speaker 02

  And it's extremely context specific. So we can't use the phrase, she has a low sex drive, because there is no such thing as a low sex drive. There's no norm in sex science for low or higher desire. So therefore, there can not be such thing as a low sex drive. It's not an internal state. We can say, she feels like sex more when she's on holiday. We can say that.

• 55:02Speaker 03

  Oh my god, we were just talking about this earlier.

• 55:04Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 55:04Speaker 03

  Like literally, you know, that thing where you get in the car and maybe your kids are with your parents or something and you're like, rabbit. You know what I mean? How funny that is. It's like, you're like teenagers again.

• 55:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:19Speaker 03

  So. But you have to go on holiday like seventeen times a year.

• 55:22Speaker 02

  Well, of course, holidays are great, but we can't all do them so frequently.

• 55:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:26Speaker 02

  You might also say, she feels like sex more, or he feels like sex more, when she has less on her mind.

• 55:32Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 55:33Speaker 02

  You might say, she feels like sex more when the sex that she's having is interesting, rewarding, full of pleasure, different every time. You might say, she feels like sex more when she feels connected to that other person, when they've been having fun together.

• 55:46Speaker 03

  Yes, in the day.

• 55:47Speaker 02

  Exactly. Desire is quite complex because if it's not a drive, and if it's not internal, and if it's context specific.

• 55:56Speaker 03

  What is it?

• 55:56Speaker 02

  Then what is it? And we know that we used to have this idea that it was a drive. We used to have this idea that it was the first thing that happened in our sexual response. So this came from sex science in the sixties, actually, fifties and sixties. The idea that desire comes first, you want, and then you act on it, and then your body responds with physical arousal. And then eventually, if you're lucky, there'll be orgasms, and then it will be over and your body will return to its unaroused state. So that's how we used to see it. In the last few decades, we've learned from sex science that actually arousal comes first. So humans respond to sexual stimuli. So sexual stimuli could be flirtation, it could be talking about sex, it could be a sex scene on TV or in a book, it could be

• 56:38Speaker 02

  a really hot, passionate kiss, it could be someone's hands on your skin. It's those things that trigger desire. Desire, the want emerges out of those things. And if you think about that first eighteen months of a relationship, everything that you did was channeled towards that. So you got ready for a date, you thought about what might happen on that date, you got excited, you thought, maybe sex will happen tonight. You would have been kissing for the sake of kissing, right? Passionate kissing without meaning any, meaning anything, right?

• 57:13Speaker 03

  You forget to do that.

• 57:14Speaker 02

  Yes. You would have been, you know, out for brunch, and even if you're out for friends, you would have been giving each other the side eye, it might have been a hand under the table. You can see the, what I call sexual currency, the sexual charge, you can see the sexual currency in a new couple when you're in the same room as them, because they're doing all of those things. There's a reason why it's easier to feel desire in those early days, because not only do you, you know, you've not had that time for predictability and familiarity to set in in your sex life. You don't relate to each other in any of the other ways that dilute it, like co-parents, housemates, you know, if you put the bins out, you've left your pants on the floor again, all that stuff. And you've got all

• 57:56Speaker 02

  of this sexual currency where you're anticipating, but it's not always leading to sex. They're sending you a text in the day saying, just thinking about last night, it was so hot. They're saying to you when you're about to go on a night out, you look so good in that dress. They're, it's the comments, it's the flirtation, it's the kissing for the sake of kissing. And then in the long-term relationship, we know that their sexual currency just declines and declines and declines. And it ends up being that these things only represent initiation of sex.

• 58:30Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 58:30Speaker 02

  This is what you were talking about with that couple. So it could be either way around, or if it's a same-sex relationship, it could be, you know, it doesn't have to be gendered, this who's the person who's wanting to communicate something nice. It might not even be an initiation.

• 58:45Speaker 03

  But it's read in a way.

• 58:46Speaker 02

  But it's read as an initiation, because if your sexual currency diminishes to the point where it's almost non-existent, every small thing looks like an initiation.

• 58:55Speaker 03

  Oh my god, that's so it.

• 58:58Speaker 02

  And because sexual currency gives us a scaffold to move easily into sex, so the couple that can transition from putting the weekly shop away to a passionate kiss against the fridge that lasts five seconds and that's the end of it, those couples are going to find it much more easy to initiate sex and get sex started than the couple who only kiss as an initiation of sex. Because if you're not feeling desire yet, maybe one person is, and they initiate a kiss, and as we know, desire has to be triggered. So you have to have something to trigger it. So if you're not feeling desire yet, the kiss comes and all you can think of is, this is pressure, I don't feel like it right now. You pull away from the kiss, that sexual stimuli is gone. Before it's even had a chance to kickstart

• 59:43Speaker 02

  anything, it's gone. And if sexual currency features rarely in your relationship, what's going to trigger your desire?

• 59:50Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 59:51Speaker 02

  There's very little there to trigger it. And because people are expecting.

• 59:55Speaker 03

  There's no air of touching, no one's kissing.

• 59:57Speaker 02

  There's nothing.

• 59:58Speaker 03

  There's no niceties happening in the day.

• 1:00:00Speaker 02

  There's no flirtation, there's no, do you remember when we did that?

• 1:00:04Speaker 03

  How'd you get that back?

• 1:00:04Speaker 02

  You can get it back. And this is, this is such a strong message of hope I want people to take away, because culture that we've fallen into is culture that can change. We all know that culture change can happen, right? I write in the book about recycling. There was a time then none of us used to recycle anything. I'm old enough to remember that. It felt a bit weird to do it, but now, can you imagine putting plastic in the bin? It just feels wrong.

• 1:00:31Speaker 03

  Like, wrong, yeah.

• 1:00:32Speaker 02

  And this is what happens in our long-term relationships, is that in the early days, the culture was high sexual currency. And then over time, we've morphed into not doing that. And all we need to do is say, hey, I listened to this on the Venus podcast, and I miss that. I miss passionate kissing for the sake of kissing. I miss you running your hands over my body on a Sunday morning and not having to mean anything. Sometimes it would turn me on.

• 1:00:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:58Speaker 02

  Something would come of it. But we don't do that anymore because you're afraid to do it, because you're afraid it will be read this way.

• 1:01:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:06Speaker 02

  And I'm afraid because I don't know if my desire will follow, because I haven't, I'm not been feeling it. So it becomes a vicious cycle, and it's so easy to correct. It's so easy to correct. But to correct it, you have to know how desire works, which is, it's not a drive, it's context specific. It's harder to kickstart in long-term relationships. You need high levels of sexual currency. You need to accept that those kisses, that flirtation, you have to up that as much as you can, but with a low expectation of it going anywhere. And the more of that you have, the easier it is to see the other person as a sexual being, rather than just a housemate. And the more of that you have, the more scaffolding

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  you've got to help you easily move in and out of sex when you want to. But more than that, like, do you know that the average time for a man and woman to have sex is eighteen minutes? That's how long sex, the average length of time from start to end, and penetrative sex is much less than that. That is a very short amount of time. I would like to say that our sexual relationship is not an on-off switch, that when we're having sex for that however long, and interestingly for women, if sex with women, it's three times as long, but I'm not going to brag.

• 1:02:23Speaker 02

  That bit there is not our sexual relationship. Our sexual relationship exists in the rest of this time as well. When our partner sends us a text at an event saying, you are the hottest person here. When we have a passionate kiss in a lift on our way somewhere.

• 1:02:40Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:02:41Speaker 02

  That is our sexual relationship.

• 1:02:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:43Speaker 02

  And that can make us feel more wanted, more desired, more connected, more close, more. It could be more fun, it can be more thrilling than some of the sex that happens in that kind of traditional idea.

• 1:02:56Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:02:56Speaker 02

  That's what we need to aspire to.

• 1:02:58Speaker 03

  Oh my God, this is literally gold. Thank you.

• 1:03:03Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:03:03Speaker 03

  I, I, I was thinking about um second time rounders. Obviously, Michael and I, um, we are, we are second time rounders.

• 1:03:14Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:03:14Speaker 03

  We got together in our 50s, or my 50s, he was, he was in his late 40s. But if, if, if a couple was going to say like, you know, they, they couldn't make it work. And they decided to move on and they do finally meet someone. Um, what are the like, you know, you've got a fresh.

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:34Speaker 03

  A fresh sort of canvas here and you can create the relationship that you want.

• 1:03:40Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:41Speaker 03

  What are the like, the must dos from the get go?

• 1:03:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, isn't it exciting?

• 1:03:46Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 1:03:46Speaker 02

  A fresh canvas.

• 1:03:48Speaker 03

  Amazing.

• 1:03:48Speaker 02

  And as hard as it is for a relationship to end. There is a gift in that as well, because you will have done some learning in that relationship about what do I not want to sacrifice?

• 1:03:59Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:03:59Speaker 02

  What do I not want to let go? What happens that went wrong in that relationship around all kinds of things, but specifically for this around sex that I'm not going to let happen again.

• 1:04:09Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  And you might feel able to go into that sexual relationship saying, hey, these are the things I learned. And this is really important to me and let's talk about it now.

• 1:04:19Speaker 03

  Do you think people that are older, I feel like I've got less embarrassed about talking.

• 1:04:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, we know actually from sex research that for women particularly as they age, they generally become more sexually assertive. They enjoy their bodies more, they feel less body conscious. So there is an element of. Aging is quite good for our sex lives. And there is a real knowing yourself that, you know, you gave the example of being in your early 50s. Being that age, you've learned a lot about yourself and your body that you might not have known when you got together with the partner before. And you can bring all of, all of that knowledge into this relationship. So it is a huge opportunity, this blank canvas. And then I would encourage that people try and find a friend, a group of friends.

• 1:05:08Speaker 02

  If not, maybe it's a social media kind of presence of someone who's very sex positive. Somewhere where you can get a bit of strength, courage of your convictions, confidence in talking. Because if you can find a group of friends that you can start to have these conversations with about sex.

• 1:05:25Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:05:25Speaker 02

  That can be like practice if you're not used to talking with someone else about it. It's all practice for talking. And if you can't find someone, maybe just practice talking to yourself about it. You know, what are the things I want to say and let's practice saying it out loud.

• 1:05:40Speaker 03

  What's interesting now is that I do think that we all have to be very careful, don't we? Who we choose to talk to about this, because you don't want to make, you know, people. You don't want to make anybody feel uncomfortable. It needs to be people you know or that you know would be open to something like that. Or you're gonna, HR are gonna be.

• 1:06:00Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:06:00Speaker 03

  Like a ton of breaks. So like in the, in the work, you know, coffee.

• 1:06:04Speaker 02

  It might not be the place.

• 1:06:05Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:06:05Speaker 02

  No, no. Unless you're in my field of work and we talk about sex all the time.

• 1:06:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, but it is interesting how, I think in the eighties, you know, at work, what like work was mad back in the eighties. Everybody's flashing their boobs and laughing and duh duh.

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:20Speaker 03

  You know, it's not like that anymore. And, and rightly so, like people are now have more autonomy.

• 1:06:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:06:27Speaker 03

  Over their bodies and their minds and what they, what they access. So you just find your people.

• 1:06:34Speaker 02

  I know I've had conversations with women who are newly single, particularly um in midlife. And I can think of someone in particular and she told me that. It was really difficult to find a group of friends that, because she'd never talked to her friends about sex. Suddenly, when she found herself single again and she was having sex and enjoying it, she wanted to talk about it. Actually, it was quite difficult for some of her social circle. They weren't.

• 1:06:59Speaker 03

  That's interesting.

• 1:07:00Speaker 02

  Open to it. They didn't want to talk about it. They were in these long term relationships. She needed to find a new place actually where she could have these conversations. So practise talking about it if you can. If you can't find a place to practise, at least try and say the words out loud yourself before. Think about how you want to say them to a partner. But all the things we said earlier about how to have conversations about sex apply here with this blank canvas. You know, this relationship, this new relationship's important to me. Sex is important to me. I've learned my lesson from past relationships. I want this to be right. I want us from the outset to keep sex good.

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  I want us to have a culture of being able to easily talk about it. Are you open to that?

• 1:07:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:07:48Speaker 02

  And it's really exciting because, you know, the, the potential for great sex. In that relationship and the, how life affirming that can be, especially if it's not been great for some time. You know, that's huge.

• 1:08:01Speaker 03

  I feel like um understanding or finding somebody that has a similar. You know, equally, if you aren't into it and you've never really been into it, finding somebody who's not a.

• 1:08:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:13Speaker 03

  A highly sexual person is helpful, you know, again. You might have been in a relationship. It's not that you should be a certain way.

• 1:08:21Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:08:22Speaker 03

  Find your tribe or find your partner, find your way.

• 1:08:26Speaker 02

  Ask that question.

• 1:08:26Speaker 03

  I'd like to like finish on, so I often think about, um, I guess because I'm a woman.

• 1:08:32Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:08:33Speaker 03

  I often think that desire is entirely how you are feeling about yourself because. And I think that's where the age thing comes in, where women can talk about things or they, or this whole concept of a cougar. I had Cindy Gallop on.

• 1:08:50Speaker 02

  Right, yeah, love Cindy Gallop.

• 1:08:51Speaker 03

  And she talks about how many men fancy her. And I was like, why? What is it about an older woman? She went, it's because I'm, I just love myself.

• 1:08:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:00Speaker 03

  I thought, God, that is so true.

• 1:09:03Speaker 02

  It's sexual confidence.

• 1:09:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, and, and, and that comes with just confidence.

• 1:09:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:09Speaker 03

  I like myself.

• 1:09:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:11Speaker 03

  I know myself. I don't give a fuck what anybody thinks about me. And like, I would argue that I've probably only felt like that since 50.

• 1:09:21Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:09:22Speaker 03

  And that actually.

• 1:09:23Speaker 02

  I love that for you, by the way.

• 1:09:24Speaker 03

  Oh God, I mean, I'll tell you what, this is the, the magic of getting older.

• 1:09:29Speaker 02

  It is glorious, isn't it? I think the, the older we get generally, the more sure of ourselves we get. And that is a wonderful, wonderful thing. And it does come into sex quite a lot because. You know, one of the biggest distractions for women particularly during sex is worrying about what our bodies look like. Yeah, this is one of the things that turns down our arousal, turns down the pleasure, turns down our ability to orgasm, turns down desire. That is something that can really get in the way.

• 1:10:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:03Speaker 02

  Of us being open to all kinds of things.

• 1:10:05Speaker 03

  Feeling self-conscious, you know.

• 1:10:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:07Speaker 03

  Or did I make a stupid noise?

• 1:10:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:09Speaker 03

  Oh God, my legs don't look in this position. It's like.

• 1:10:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a, the number one distraction for women during sex.

• 1:10:17Speaker 03

  How do we make that better? How do we love ourselves?

• 1:10:20Speaker 02

  I mean, it's a million dollar question, right? There's a number of things from a sex perspective we can do. And I always encourage people to have a really, a, a good, hard luck at who they're following on social media. And what they're exposing themselves to in terms of body image, body positivity, because that really matters. We can't really escape it because it's a patriarchal thing. And incidentally, men who have sex with men, so gay men are also affected by worrying a lot about what their bodies look like during sex. Almost as much as straight women. It's about the male gaze. And so it's hard for us to escape it completely. We are judging ourselves based on how good we think we look to men rather than how good it feels.

• 1:11:03Speaker 02

  And so it's a tricky thing, but the more we can try and be present in our bodies and divert our attention back to sensation. And the more we can try or try to reject that idea politically, you know, outside of the bedroom. I don't agree with that, like all bodies are good bodies and my body can be sexy regardless of the shape or size or whatever else it might be. The better, but it's, it's tricky. It's really tricky.

• 1:11:31Speaker 03

  Do you know, I sometimes think like looking in the mirror or doing all the stuff that like you would normally be doing if you haven't, didn't do it when you were a kid.

• 1:11:38Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:11:39Speaker 03

  Like sit in front of a mirror and just literally look at every single bit of yourself.

• 1:11:43Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:11:44Speaker 03

  Learn, learn to, I mean, I'm always banging on about warts and all.

• 1:11:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:49Speaker 03

  It, it's like no one's perfect.

• 1:11:52Speaker 02

  No, and if we can celebrate.

• 1:11:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:11:55Speaker 02

  Body's capacity to feel pleasure more than we can celebrate. Our body's capacity to look good for someone else's pleasure, then we're halfway there.

• 1:12:05Speaker 03

  Karen, I feel like I'm gonna have to get you back.

• 1:12:09Speaker 02

  You can.

• 1:12:09Speaker 03

  Can we, can we do a part two?

• 1:12:11Speaker 02

  Of course we can.

• 1:12:12Speaker 03

  Karen, that was so good.

• 1:12:15Speaker 02

  I'm glad.

• 1:12:15Speaker 03

  Can we, Karen Gurney, everyone? Oh my God, that was so good. So just in case you missed this episode here, if you loved today's episode, I know you're gonna love that one. That one. There.

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Redken. Sabrina Carpenter is on repeat. Dry hair isn't. Let's change the tune. Meet Redken All Soft All In Deep Conditioning Hair Mask. Up to 96 hours of hair moisture, softness and shine with the All Soft System. Try the Star Treatment, the All Soft Deep Conditioning Hair Mask. Which provides 12 times more moisture and helps reduce frizz for up to 72 hours. That's a hair care hit worth putting on repeat.

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  Life is all about making decisions. Sometimes you make questionable ones, like buying a new TV that's too big for the wall because the electronics store employee was a little too good at their job. Then sometimes you make great ones, like protecting your home and auto with Progressive. You get customized coverage options so you can be sure you have the right coverage. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers, not available in all states. As wish lists grow, you know where to go. Head to Ulta Beauty. We have gifts they'll love from brands like Tato One and Rare Beauty by Selena Gomez. Shop beauty faves to give or keep from Shark Beauty, Sol de Janeiro and more.

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  Not sure what they want? You can't go wrong with Baumann, Clinique or Redken. And don't forget to put yourself on the list. Book a salon moment or add a little more sparkle to your season. Shop holiday in store or at Ulta.com. Ulta Beauty, the.

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  Free at heart. Libre, the original eau de parfum, Yves Saint Laurent.