What Most Leaders Get Wrong (Simon Sinek)

In this powerful conversation, Emma sits down with Simon Sinek to redefine what leadership actually looks like in today’s world. Known for shaping how millions think about purpose and influence, Simon goes deeper than theory, challenging the outdated idea that leadership is about authority, titles, or control. Instead, he breaks down why real leadership is rooted in responsibility: the responsibility to help people feel safe, supported, and able to do their best work. Together, Emma and Simon explore why so many people feel disconnected from their jobs, why traditional leadership models are failing, and what it really means to lead in service of others. Simon reflects on his own journey to finding purpose, the discomfort that came with it, and why clarity—not charisma—is the foundation of trust, loyalty, and lasting success. This episode is a grounded, honest look at leadership without ego, purpose without performance, and the new rules required to build cultures—and lives—that actually work. WHAT YOU’LL LEARN: Why leadership isn’t about being in charge, it’s about taking responsibility for people How helping people is the true job of a leader Why so many leaders get it wrong, even with good intentions What it really means to “find your why” and keep it in balance The difference between authority and trust Why great leaders are made, not born How to lead without burning out yourself or your team The simple mindset shift that creates loyalty, safety, and long-term success Why service not power is the foundation of meaningful leadership

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:09Speaker 00

  I wear an orange strap on my watch. I always have a flash of orange somewhere on me. It's not for you, it's for me.

• 0:15Emma Grede?

  What's the orange strap?

• 0:16Speaker 00

  Optimism. It's my job, right? And it's a reminder to me. These little things. I have the word inspire embroidered in some of my clothes.

• 0:25Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 0:26Speaker 00

  Gets tucked into my jeans, like, you're not gonna see it. I see it when I get dressed in the morning. It's not there for you, it's there for me. So I'm surrounded by pictures on my desk, you know, things hanging in my home, things on my body. I've chosen orange, I've chosen the word optimism as a reminder to me of my job to help me stay in balance.

• 0:47Speaker 02

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• 1:32Speaker 02

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• 1:43Speaker 03

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• 2:48Emma Grede?

  Simon, I am so incredibly excited to have you here today because you know a lot about two of my favorite subjects, one being leadership and the other one being purpose or what you've really kind of, you know, defined for the world as your why. And I have to tell you, your video, what was it? The power, no, not the power of why, it was not the power of why.

• 3:10Speaker 00

  I don't know what they called it.

• 3:11Emma Grede?

  There was like, I don't know, but let me tell you, it doesn't even matter what they called it because there was just this one beautiful standout line that for me, I obsessed over. I think I watched it every day for months and months and months ahead of launching Good American. So this is going back quite a few years now and it was, people don't buy what you do, they buy why you do it.

• 3:32Speaker 00

  True.

• 3:32Emma Grede?

  And for people that maybe, you know, if you're not one of the millions and millions and millions of people that have viewed that video, will you just explain for me out the gate what you meant by that? Because today I want to spend most of the time talking about your personal why and a lot of time talking about what good leadership really looks like. But I'd love you just to summarize that for those that don't know you as well as I think I know you.

• 3:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, it's a simple concept. People buy into what you believe. Loyalty, love, all of those things come from connecting with you, a person, with you, a brand. People buy things that are cheaper, you know, these are transactional relationships. We don't have any loyalty to those things. And what I learned was that all the most inspiring brands, all the most inspiring leaders, from Martin Luther King to Steve Jobs, you know, every single one of them thinks, acts and communicates the exact same way and it's the complete opposite to the rest of us, them personally and in the case of Jobs, this company. Most of us tell people what we do. We tell them what the product is. We tell them what the prices. We tell them what the value is. We tell them what the features and the benefits are.

• 4:38Speaker 00

  And we expect that that's going to drive a behavior. But if you look at the biology of how people actually make decisions, it's something not rational. It's something deeply, deeply emotional in the limbic part of our brain. Our limbic brain controls all of our decision making, all of our feelings. But it doesn't control language, which is why it's hard to put sometimes these things into words. And the great leaders and the great brands are able to capture that thing, that why, in words that sucks us in and draws us in and makes us want it, even if it's irrational, even if it's more expensive, even if we can buy something better somewhere else. And so it's a true, it's a true statement. People don't buy what you do. They buy why you do it is a biologically true statement.

• 5:21Emma Grede?

  No, I think you honestly, you couldn't be more right about that. And I feel like so many people in that moment were like, why am I doing what I'm doing? You know, we all then obsessed over it. But I think it was like, for me, it was like, somebody turned the light on all of a sudden. It made everything that I was doing made sense. And it made so many of the mistakes that I'd made and the businesses that perhaps weren't successful. I was like, damn, like, why wasn't this so blindingly obvious? What was it about? And again, because so many people obviously felt like me at that moment when they saw you say that so plainly. But why was that not part of how we think? Like, why was that such a pivotal moment for people when you said it like that?

• 6:06Emma Grede?

  Was it just the simplicity in what you said? Or that we knew it to be true? What do you think about it?

• 6:10Speaker 00

  You were an executive making gut decisions.

• 6:13Emma Grede?

  Yeah, all the time.

• 6:13Speaker 00

  And, and, and the best entrepreneurs make gut decisions. You ask all of them, what's your secret? They all say the same thing. I trust my gut, right? The problem is that's not scalable because you're the only person that knows what's going on. And it's not something you can explain either. You'd be like, I don't know. It just feels right, even though all of the empirical data says, do the other thing, right? And so that's, that's difficult. And so, as I said before, the part of the brain that controls all of our decision making doesn't control language, which is why we say it feels right. Because the part of our brain that makes decisions is also responsible for feelings, not language. And so the, when I said it, it immediately explained the experience you were having, right? I can put it another way, if you like. There's a little metaphor I use called the celery test.

• 6:59Speaker 00

  We're all constantly getting lots of advice from the internet, from articles, from friends, right? Dinner parties, whatever it is. And the problem is, is which advice do you follow? So let's imagine you go to a dinner party. And somebody says to you, you know what you need in this economy? You need to be buying M&Ms. I'm telling you, M&Ms, I made so much money with M&Ms. You gotta get into M&Ms. Somebody else says to you, soy milk. I'm telling you, you gotta, you gotta do soy milk. Somebody else says, Kit Kats. Kit Kats are the best thing in the world. And somebody else says to you, celery. All perfectly good advice from all perfectly good sources, from all perfectly successful people. You go to the supermarket. The problem is, which advice do you follow? What products do you buy? So you buy all of it.

• 7:42Speaker 00

  You buy Kit Kats and M&Ms and celery and rice milk. You may get some value out of some or all of these products. We don't really know. You spend a lot of time at the supermarket. You spend a lot of money at the supermarket. And that's it, right? And when you're standing in the queue, when you're standing in the line to check out, people can see what you bought. Nobody knows what you stand for. Nobody's what you believe, because you bought everything. Now, let's imagine you know your why. Let's say your why is to always be healthy and only do the things that protect the health of your body. You get all the same good advice from all the same people. The difference is, when you go to the supermarket, which are the only products you buy?

• 8:14Emma Grede?

  You buy the celery.

• 8:14Speaker 00

  Buy the celery and the rice milk. Those are the only ones that make sense. You spend less time, you spend less money. You're guaranteed to get value. You're standing in the line and everyone can see that you only have celery and rice milk in your basket. And people can say, hey, I can see that you believe in being healthy. So do I. You just attracted a customer or an employee simply by making decisions. Because what you do reflects what you believe, right? But here's the best part. The minute I said the why, I asked you what we buy, you knew without me having to tell you. Now, me as the entrepreneur, I'm making gut decisions every day. I know we're only gonna buy celery, even though I can't tell people because of all the advice. But the minute you put the why into words... Anyone can make the right decisions.

• 8:57Speaker 00

  So that's what was the light bulb for so many people, which is by putting it into words. Other people can make the right decisions, the decisions that you would have made because they can now see what you see.

• 9:08Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 9:08Speaker 00

  They now believe what you believe.

• 9:09Emma Grede?

  And that's the beautiful thing, because I think when, again, you put it so beautifully, when they believe what you believe. And, you know, I've been lucky enough to be part of some brands that have done that very, very early on, right, that have gone out on a limb and been very, very, very clear about their beliefs. What's interesting about that, because in business, we're kind of, you know, constantly looking at the lifetime value of a customer, like, what does this customer mean to us on day one when they purchase and what do they mean down the line? And every metric, when you actually matter to customers, when customers believe what you believe, the metrics completely go through the roof. And so you're actually building a way more healthy business when you do that, but it's not easy to engineer. So I was endlessly, I mean, I've read probably everything that you've ever written, but

• 9:54Emma Grede?

  my favorite book that you've written is Start With Why. And there were so many reasons for that, but I loved that you took it into this kind of personal realm, because anybody who had been fascinated by this particular speech and this particular video then started going, what was my why? And that's what I did. I really went deep inside because I was like, I can figure it out for these businesses, but far harder to do it for myself. And I think that right now, we're in a moment in time where there's so much insecurity in the world. There's such a lack of optimism. People question everything. We're sitting here at this moment where, you know, all we talk, I feel like every conversation I have leads to this existential conversation around AI.

• 10:37Emma Grede?

  And so my question to you is really, how do people even begin to understand their own why? What do you do if you really don't know?

• 10:49Speaker 00

  There's a process. I mean, anybody can uncover their why. We're all the sum total of how we were raised. You are who you are because of the experiences you had growing up. And your personality was fully formed probably by your mid to late teens.

• 11:04Emma Grede?

  You think it's that late? Looking at my kids, sometimes I feel like it's even earlier.

• 11:08Speaker 00

  I mean, you know, Piaget would say thirteen.

• 11:10Emma Grede?

  Right.

• 11:10Speaker 00

  The the youngest person I did a why discovery was with was, I think, sixteen or seventeen.

• 11:16Emma Grede?

  Right.

• 11:16Speaker 00

  But, you know, the rest of our lives offer us opportunity to live in balance or out of balance with who we are. But just because you are who you are doesn't mean you're living to. You're not. You're not necessarily making the decisions that show people who you are. You know, sometimes when we start chasing money and fame and our friends say it's like, I don't know who you are anymore. Right? Well, that's because you are who you are.

• 11:36Emma Grede?

  I'm interested to understand how. How someone finds their why without blowing their life up, right? Like, is it, again, for so many people, they might feel misalignment with their job. They might feel like they're out of living outside of their truth. But how do you do it if you just, you know, you're like. I have bills to pay. I'm trying to live a regular life, but I just need to get closer to what.

• 11:59Speaker 00

  Well, those are two different conversations.

• 12:01Emma Grede?

  Yeah, tell me that.

• 12:02Speaker 00

  Knowing your why and making decisions and choices that that help you work to your natural best. Are that's a different conversation.

• 12:10Emma Grede?

  I want to have both of those.

• 12:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, it's it's a journey, right? It's like, think of it like exercise, which is if you want to be healthy. You have to go to the gym, you have to eat, right? You have to get enough sleep, you have to nurse your personal relationships. And once you achieve that, you have to keep doing it for the rest of your life. Like, it's a journey. You're never perfectly healthy. These things wax and wane. They're affected by stress. They're affected by jet lag. They're affected by, you know, whatever, right? Boredom, they're affected by laziness, right? And so it's the same thing. Once you know your why, the rest of your life is the pursuit of trying to keep it in in balance. It's the same thing. It's it's not an achievement. It's a journey. But learning what your why is, which is the starting point.

• 12:52Speaker 00

  That's why the book is called Start With Why. That's why college graduation is called commencement. It's the first day of the rest of your life. It's not the end, it's the beginning, but I can get people to the starting line. I can't get them to the finish line. So the starting line, I'll give you a fun little exercise called the Friends Test. Do not do this with a spouse. Do not do this with a sibling, do not do this with a parent.

• 13:11Emma Grede?

  No, dude.

• 13:12Speaker 00

  Those relationships are too close. Do this with a best friend. The kind of person who, if you called them at three o'clock in the morning, you know they take your call and you'd be there to take their call. Same thing, right?

• 13:21Emma Grede?

  I have a solid four of them.

• 13:23Speaker 00

  Right, you're ride and die, right? And ask them this, this question. Why are we friends? And they're gonna look at you like you're crazy. Because again, the part of the brain that controls feelings doesn't control language. It's, it's hard to put our feelings into words. But then weirdly, you actually stop asking the question why. They're gonna look at you like you're nuts and they're gonna be like, I don't know. No, they just can't put it into words. They do know. And then you stop asking the question why. You're like, okay, what specifically is it about me that I know you'd be there for me no matter what? And they're gonna hem and haw and be like, I don't know. And they're gonna start describing you. I don't know, you're honest, you're reliable, uh, you're fun, uh, and you play devil's advocate. You go, you have that from other people too.

• 14:08Speaker 00

  What specifically is it about me that I know you'd be there for me no matter what? That I, that you'll always be there? And they're gonna, it's gonna, for some of them, it'll be stressful. Do not help them, don't let anybody else help them. Let them go through the process. Play devil's advocate. No matter what they say, you say, what specifically is it about me? And you know, sort of, and eventually they'll give up. Eventually they'll stop trying to describe you and they'll start describing themselves. And this is what my friends said to me. They said, Simon, I don't know. All I know is I don't even have to talk to you. I can just sit in the same room as you and I feel inspired. And I got goosebumps. I'm getting them right now. Because what they put into words was the value I have in their life, the space that

• 14:51Speaker 00

  I fill, and the reason I had an emotional reaction, whether you well up with tears or you get goosebumps, is because it's tapping deep inside you what it is that you're supposed to give to the world, what you're supposed to give to people. And if you do this exercise with multiple friends, they will say similar, if not the exact same thing. Because your value to the world is the space you fill in their lives, which is why we can have many friends, because you can't fill all the spaces. And so I know that. I know that my why is to inspire people to do the things that inspire them. And my job, my love, is to figure out the ways they can do it. As a brother, as a son, as a friend, as a leader, as a follower, like whatever my role is, that is my job. And I am in balance and at my best self.

• 15:33Speaker 00

  I am my most fulfilled when I'm trying to do that. Again, it's a pursuit. It is not, I am not, I get it wrong all the time. I'm subjected to all the same stresses and strains as everybody else. My ego, my insecurities, fatigue, and these put me out of balance. But I at least can say, ugh, you know, and then I can work, I can work through it. And I can ask for help. I can also give myself grace. Yeah. Because I am imperfect, as we all are. But when you know your why, when you know the starting point, then you can say, okay, my company fulfills this. They're not perfect at it, but I can help them. Or you can say, my company, they only care about shareholder value.

• 16:17Speaker 00

  They only care about profit. They don't care about anything else. They have no sense of purpose or cause. They're mercenaries. I don't belong here. Do I quit? Or do I be the leader I wish I had? Do I create a little fiefdom of inspiration and fulfillment with the people around me? Because I can bring inspiration to the person to the left of me and the person to the right of me. And I can find intense joy and fulfillment in my team, even if I don't align with my company. So quitting is an option always, but it's not always the only option. And that's one of the challenges I think young people have today, which is they think quitting is the only option if they're misaligned with the company. And the problem is, the problem is, you're gonna be misaligned with the company. Right? Sometimes in part, but sometimes in whole.

• 17:02Speaker 00

  Because unfortunately, too many companies today.

• 17:06Speaker 00

  Are more finite oriented, are more driven by the short term gains, the shareholder value, the money before the people, money at all, money at all costs. And so unfortunately, that's too common. And so you're going to struggle to find a really great inspiring company. They exist, we love them.

• 17:25Emma Grede?

  But they're few and far between.

• 17:26Speaker 00

  But there's not that many of them.

• 17:27Emma Grede?

  And so you say to people what?

• 17:29Speaker 00

  But there's good, good people and good things and great teams.

• 17:32Emma Grede?

  In shitty companies.

• 17:33Speaker 00

  In shitty companies.

• 17:34Emma Grede?

  All the time.

• 17:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:34Emma Grede?

  So what do you say to somebody that's in a position, perhaps where they feel like, let's say they go and they do your exercise.

• 17:41Speaker 00

  No.

• 17:42Emma Grede?

  And they understand what it is that their friends love about them. They understand.

• 17:46Speaker 00

  The value they have in their friends' lives, as I would put it.

• 17:49Emma Grede?

  The value they have in their friends' lives. I know that everybody is dying to like, stop the podcast and actually call up a friend. In fact, I mean, that's what everybody should do. They should pause, call a couple of friends and then come back and listen to the rest of the episode.

• 18:00Speaker 00

  The exercise won't fully answer the question, but it'll get you, it'll get you in the ballpark. It'll be actionable.

• 18:04Emma Grede?

  I love the way, I mean, first of all, of course, I've obviously done this, but I think it's so interesting that with your answer, that you inspire your friends, that you've then built the career that you have, right? So this is really powerful stuff. If you take this in and you take it seriously, I mean, you've built an entire ecosystem, infrastructure, company, way of being, branded persona around your why. And it's really working for you in the way that I've seen it work when a company has a why.

• 18:42Speaker 00

  I would agree with you on every detail you said, but I'd push back on one.

• 18:46Emma Grede?

  Tell me.

• 18:46Speaker 00

  Branded persona.

• 18:48Emma Grede?

  Oh, go on.

• 18:49Speaker 00

  This is who I am. I am the same on and off camera, you know?

• 18:53Emma Grede?

  Well, I don't think that if you have a branded persona, that it's necessarily manufactured or inauthentic.

• 18:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:00Emma Grede?

  I mean it from the way, and so let me, let me say it better to you. There is no mistaking that you are a person that inspires. Like, if you hadn't told me that your friends think of you that way, and you said to me, Emma, what do you think? I would go. You're a super inspiring guy.

• 19:17Speaker 00

  Good. That means, that means I'm, that's I mean, I'm doing the work.

• 19:20Emma Grede?

  It's like I get you on Instagram and I'm just like, oh my God, I feel so inspired. Like that's the what, there's not like, oh, what, what are we feeling today? It's like, that's what you were clearly born to do. And it's what you are doing. And so I don't mean it in a, in an inauthentic way. I'm just like, that's who you are.

• 19:35Speaker 00

  But I think it's worth, it's worth touching on only because I think there are too many people, especially in this sort of modern social media influencer world.

• 19:44Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 19:44Speaker 00

  That their idea of authenticity is like crying on camera. You know, that's not all.

• 19:49Emma Grede?

  Don't even get me started.

• 19:50Speaker 00

  That's not authenticity. Authenticity means, authenticity means I say and do the things I actually believe. That's what authenticity means. Authentic doesn't mean just like speaking my truth, like that's.

• 20:01Emma Grede?

  No, it's the least vulnerable thing that you can do is to cry on camera.

• 20:05Speaker 00

  And, and I have no problem with people building brands around themselves, obviously, but it should be driven by who you are and the impact you want to have in the lives of people and the world you want to live in that you're trying to build, rather than tapping into some sort of zeitgeist, some sort of, sort of like cultural thing. And then you're like, I'm going to be the voice of that.

• 20:22Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 20:22Speaker 00

  You know, that'll fall apart. That'll, at some point, at some point, the, the truth will show up. And we've seen it happen, right? We saw it happen, I mean, two very notable expressions of that were, I'd say Tiger Woods, you know, he wanted to be the good boy of golf. Turns out he was the bad boy of golf, right? Now, he could have just been the bad boy of golf and we would have loved him just the same. There's plenty of bad boys in sports and we.

• 20:44Emma Grede?

  Totally.

• 20:45Speaker 00

  Like, you know, there they are. But Ellen is the other one, right? She told us she was this wonderful, lovely, kind, generous, sweet human being. Turns out, mm.

• 20:54Emma Grede?

  Not so much.

• 20:55Speaker 00

  Not so much. And again, if David Letterman was a curmudgeon and a grump and every kind of, everybody kind of knew he was kind of a.

• 21:01Emma Grede?

  No, we accept it so long as you are.

• 21:03Speaker 00

  Kind of a prick, you know? And he, he didn't lie about being a bit of a prick. He was a bit of a prick, you know? He either liked you or didn't like you, you know? And, and so, meh, it's, it's okay. You know, it's like, we know, we know what we're dealing with and we know who you are. And so the point being is when I heard a branded persona. What it sent me to was like Tiger Woods and Ellen.

• 21:24Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 21:24Speaker 00

  Which is, that's a branded persona, which is, I'm gonna develop a brand, but I'm not gonna live that brand.

• 21:29Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 21:30Speaker 00

  I'm just gonna be that.

• 21:31Emma Grede?

  Well, because I think that in the culture, we are surrounded by so many more people.

• 21:35Speaker 00

  And what brand sells.

• 21:37Emma Grede?

  Right? Like that they, that they curate something around themselves that has nothing to do with their purpose or with their why. And then they do a lot of work to put that idea forward. But I, my.

• 21:47Speaker 00

  Or it's for public only.

• 21:49Emma Grede?

  Yeah, but my argument would be that when you, I mean, again, going to your best friends in the world and getting that information, right? It comes from a place of honesty and it comes from a place of truth. Because hopefully they're, they're giving you that. And what you can do with that information is so powerful. And I look at you and I go, that's so interesting that you took that and you ran with it. And it's been so, um, that it's really worked for you in such a way. And so for somebody that tries this at home, I'd like to understand, like, once you had that piece of information, like, what did you do with it? Why did you take it so to heart and decide that you would anchor everything else around that?

• 22:31Speaker 00

  Well, I realized, first of all, it was a source of passion, right? This came at a time in my life where I'd lost my passion. And so I went through this exercise to regain my passion. I wasn't supposed to be, I wasn't supposed to write books or do talks. I would, none of those things were in any plan. I never thought I had a book in me.

• 22:46Emma Grede?

  Really?

• 22:46Speaker 00

  I have no desire to be a public speaker, right? Still don't. I'm living proof that having a plan is hilarious because nothing I'm doing was on any plan and continues not to be. The, the difference was.

• 22:58Emma Grede?

  I can't even deal with that information. I'm the most planned person in the world.

• 23:01Speaker 00

  So, uh, I mean, I could probably benefit from a little more planning.

• 23:08Speaker 00

  But there was no like life goal, one day I'm gonna write a book. Like, that wasn't, and when I wrote my first one, I'm like, all right, that's it. I'm done, you know? And I wrote the second one, I'm like, all right, I'm done, you know? The difference is the starting point. I didn't start with an end goal in mind. I started with, I started with a, a, a solid foundation. I have a thing that has value to me. I now feel inspired by this thing called the why. The first thing I'm gonna do is I'm gonna share it with the people I love. That's how it started.

• 23:36Emma Grede?

  You mean example of that?

• 23:37Speaker 00

  So this why concept, when I came up with it was, again, for me, was the first thing. It's like you see a great movie or you read a great book, what do you do?

• 23:45Emma Grede?

  Share.

• 23:46Speaker 00

  You tell your friends. You're like, oh, my God, you gotta see this movie. Why did you do that? Why did you tell your friends that they have to see a movie? You're not, you're not the cruise director. You're not responsible for their social lives. Why would you tell a friend, they didn't ask, oh, my God, you have to see this movie?

• 24:02Emma Grede?

  Because you wanna share.

• 24:03Speaker 00

  Cause you share, you wanna share goodness with your friends. That's who we are. That's what it means to be a good friend, right? Which is we give our friends recommendations, why? So they'll have better lives. I did the same thing. I'm like, I gotta tell you this thing. It's, it's so powerful. I gotta share it with you. And I would help my friends find their why. And my friends started finding renewed passion in their work. Some of them even started businesses. And they wanted to share it with their friends. So they called me and said, can you come to my apartment and tell my friends about this? And I said, sure. And I literally would stand in someone's living room and talk about this thing called a why. And we get one of those supermarket, you know, crudité things, you know, with the celery and the dip in the middle with the big plastic lid. Like we'd buy one of those and put it on the table. And I would talk about this thing called a why. And some of their friends would say, can you help me find my why?

• 24:47Speaker 00

  And I would help people for a hundred bucks on the side. And it wasn't supposed to be a career. It was a side gig, but I found that it brought me such joy and it made me feel so myself that that's all I wanted to talk about. I'd go for meetings and people like, so what do you offer? And I wouldn't even like do the thing. I would just be like, okay, I gotta tell you this.

• 25:07Emma Grede?

  I've got this.

• 25:07Speaker 00

  And I'd start drawing circles on napkins, you know?

• 25:10Emma Grede?

  You love a circle.

• 25:10Speaker 00

  I do love a circle. I do love a circle.

• 25:12Emma Grede?

  I've seen.

• 25:13Speaker 00

  The more people I told about it, the more people wanted it. Then somebody said, can you come talk to our company? And so, and somebody said, you should write a book. And I was like, I don't know how to write a book, you know? And I had a meeting with a publisher. I had a 29-minute meeting and three days later, they offered me a book deal. It's not because I'm smarter than anybody else. And it's not because I had more connections. My connections emerged because the more that I started with why, the more I learned to speak about what my why was. People who believed what I believed said, there's somebody I need you to meet. I didn't know anybody in publishing. I met somebody who was inspired by whatever it is I was saying. She says, I need you to meet somebody. I met him because sure, you know, I talked to him on the phone. Turns out he's an editor at a big publisher.

• 25:58Speaker 00

  He says, you need to meet my boss, who's the publisher. I went, okay. And so he made the meeting for me. My, my agent didn't do it. It was these, is these, the more I talked about why the people who believed what I believed wanted me to meet people, not for me. They don't care about me. It's because, like you said, I put what you were feeling into words. I helped you see something that you knew to be true. Now you had some clarity. And so I was giving them clarity and I was giving them words. And I was now the tool. They wanted to share me with other people for them, not for me.

• 26:31Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 26:31Speaker 00

  And so things started getting crazy quickly. And so, you know, start with why. And I just came out with the 15th. I mean, it's embarrassing, but the 15th anniversary edition just came out.

• 26:42Emma Grede?

  That's crazy.

• 26:43Speaker 00

  I know. And it was fun to edit. It was fun to edit because I was like, do I have to rewrite this thing? Is it still relevant? And I went through it and read it and we'd like change the grammar. And like, we put a couple of like, one of the most common questions I got on the first edition, I wrote about TiVo and like all the young people be like, what's a TiVo? So I, instead of taking the case out, I just went and explained what a TiVo was. So it was like, I brought it into the modern era and like made some explanations of things that I took for granted back when I wrote it. But the amazing thing about putting out that 15th anniversary edition, it's 100% true. It's 100% relevant. Nothing's changed. Nothing has changed, which was super fun. But all of these opportunities came about because people who believed what I believed

• 27:26Speaker 00

  wanted me to meet somebody they thought that could, would help them. And I just kept saying yes. My point is that that start with why book, which is now, you know, a decade and a half old. That's my Bible. Like, that's how I live my life. And even though I don't talk about it as much anymore, it's in me. It's who I am. It's what I believe. And, and I gave away the entire. Game plan that I used to build a brand, to build a business, to work at scale, to bring these things to life in a compelling way that had relevance in other people's lives. And it's all in there. I learned to start with why. I learned to speak with why. I learned to think with why. I learned to make decisions with why. And I was obsessed with the law of diffusion of innovations,

• 28:11Speaker 00

  which is work with the early adopters, work with the people who believe what you believe. The majority of the people who just want what's in it for me, you know, if it doesn't work, will I get my money back?

• 28:21Emma Grede?

  You stay away?

• 28:22Speaker 00

  I stay away. And I allow other people to help me build and carry the message. And so literally, that is my blueprint for how I did everything.

• 28:31Emma Grede?

  And so all of these years later, you still believe exactly what you wrote and it's still working.

• 28:37Speaker 00

  Hundred percent, hundred percent, hundred percent.

• 28:40Emma Grede?

  And tell me this, when somebody finally discovers they why, let's say they go through this exercise and they figure out their why. Is it like, you know, when you start a new habit, do you drift off sometimes and have to find your way back to your why? I'm trying to understand how do people constantly remind themselves of their why?

• 29:00Speaker 00

  It's about balance, right? Of course. Like sometimes you spend a few months and you are unhealthy and you get into some bad habits or stress gets in the way or work gets in the way or whatever it is, of course. And so, yeah, of course I veer from why. This is why I talk about balance, not about right or wrong. I talk about the work to stay in balance. Of course I fall out of balance. And so like anybody who has any kind of belief structure, I surround myself with symbols, right? If you're religious, very often you hang a religious icon in your home or your doorway or around your neck. And it's a little reminder to you of the life you want to live or you put pictures of your family as a reminder of what's important to you. I wear an orange strap on my watch. I always have a flash of orange somewhere on me.

• 29:43Speaker 00

  It's not for you, it's for me. It's a reminder. Optimism.

• 29:49Speaker 00

  It's my job, right? And it's a reminder to me, these little things. I have the word inspire embroidered in some of my clothes. You know, it's sometimes in the, in the bottom part of the shirt, whatever you call it.

• 29:59Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 30:00Speaker 00

  Gets tucked into my, into my jeans. Like, you're not going to see it. I see it when I get dressed in the morning. It's not there for you, it's there for me. So I'm, I'm surrounded by pictures on my desk, you know, things hanging in my home, things on my body, my, my, my, you know, little flashes. I've, I've chosen orange. I've chosen the word optimism as a reminder to me of my job to help me stay in balance. Am I, do I get it wrong? Oh, my God.

• 30:22Emma Grede?

  All the time.

• 30:22Speaker 00

  Million of times a day, right?

• 30:24Emma Grede?

  Give me another little practical tip for people that want to be constantly reminded of their purpose, because I love that. Like, I look at you now, you've got the orange on your socks, you have the orange there. It's like, that would be a key thing to do. What else do you think that people should do?

• 30:37Speaker 00

  You have to talk about it obsessively.

• 30:38Emma Grede?

  Obsessively?

• 30:39Speaker 00

  So, so.

• 30:40Emma Grede?

  You've been talking about it for over.

• 30:42Speaker 00

  Like, it's all I want to talk about. Like, like, I, I love talking about ideas, but when I discovered why, it's all I wanted to talk about. It's the only thing I wanted to talk about. And, and if you look at the progression in, in the things that I've written, the talks that I've given, the videos that I put out, there's a, there's a through line through all of it, from why, to leaders eat last, to infinite game, to what I'm working on now about friendship, to the companies I've built, to the, to my, the, the app that we're developing, to the training we've done for, for, to, because now we're training coaches on how to help their clients find their why. We're doing that now. So like, if you look at the through line through all of my work, it's about relationships. It's about people. It's why I'm writing about friendship. It's, it's about, and, and the, and the, and the businesses that I've built, yes, it's

• 31:27Speaker 00

  about leadership and culture and all of that stuff, but reality, it's about people getting along with people and people taking care of people. That's what it's about.

• 31:39Emma Grede?

  Hi, everyone. This is Kara Swisher.

• 31:41Speaker 04

  And I'm Scott Galloway.

• 31:42Emma Grede?

  And we want to tell you about Pivot, our twice weekly podcast.

• 31:45Speaker 04

  That's right, Kara. What a thrill. It's a chance for us to break down all the big things happening in tech, business and politics.

• 31:51Emma Grede?

  Yes, and I keep you in check so people can make it through each episode, whether it's digging into constant changes in the world of AI and social media or trying to keep.

• 31:58Speaker 05

  Whatever the fuck Elon is doing, we're here to give you our take on all of that.

• 32:03Speaker 04

  Every Tuesday and Friday morning, we drop a new episode about some of the major stories of the moment.

• 32:09Speaker 05

  And Scott is a prediction machine, gazing into his crystal ball to tell you about where it's all heading.

• 32:13Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 32:14Speaker 05

  So if that sounds like a good time for you, especially Mr. That's right, you can follow us on your favorite podcast app to get new episodes every week.

• 32:23Speaker 04

  Boom.

• 32:27Speaker 00

  Do you ever wish you could ask nosey questions about people's money?

• 32:30Speaker 06

  I have $729.71 in my bank account.

• 32:34Speaker 07

  We bought, you know, $1.3 million house on a $350,000 income.

• 32:39Speaker 00

  On the podcast What We Spend, we ask those questions. It's a show about money and all the feelings that come with spending it.

• 32:45Speaker 05

  I want to be the kind of person who can just take care of the people in my life.

• 32:50Speaker 00

  Listen to What We Spend, an Odyssey original, available now wherever you get your podcasts.

• 33:02Emma Grede?

  Do you think finding your why has helped make you successful?

• 33:06Speaker 00

  Of course. I have, I have solid foundation. I have more confidence. I have a calm. I have things that I can easily say no to.

• 33:16Emma Grede?

  It's a filter for you.

• 33:17Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, I remember when I was getting going and I didn't know how to, I had this idea and I didn't know what to do with it. And I knew I didn't want to be a consultant, but that was the easy way to start. So I did start that way. And I would get advice from people who were much more successful than me, made much more money than me. And I was living, I mean, I was really like paycheck to paycheck. Like it was, I was like, it was a, you know, it took, it took a while, but it was fun. I mean, I wouldn't call them rough. They were, you know, austere maybe, but not rough. Cause it was fun. Without my why, the money was stressful. With my why, I was, I just was like, it's okay, it'll be fine. But I would get advice from people who were much more successful than me. And they would tell me to do things that were probably right. But it didn't feel right to me.

• 34:00Speaker 00

  And instead of me just going, that doesn't feel right in the face of empirical evidence that they're more successful than me. I now had a filter to say, no, I'm not following their advice. I'm not doing it. And here's the reason why. Because it'll put me out of balance. It won't advance my cause. It's not what I want to pursue. And I'm willing to make money more slowly to do the right thing than make money quickly and do the wrong thing. And I ignored their advice and things have gone just fine.

• 34:23Emma Grede?

  Yeah, it's really worked out. Who taught you to communicate so well?

• 34:28Speaker 00

  Oh, that's one of the blessings of having ADHD. I struggled as a student in school. I can't read very well.

• 34:36Emma Grede?

  Did you get a diagnosis?

• 34:38Speaker 00

  No, I only got diagnosed in my 30s. I can, I mean, I can physically read. I can read fine. But I'm, I'm very bad if you give me like a textbook and blocks of text. Like even now, if you send me a long email.

• 34:48Emma Grede?

  You're bad with textbooks?

• 34:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. If you send me-

• 34:51Emma Grede?

  After all those books? No, you can't be.

• 34:53Speaker 00

  I've written more books than I've read.

• 34:55Emma Grede?

  Is that true?

• 34:57Speaker 00

  That's a true statement. I used to carry a lot of shame that I struggled to read.

• 35:01Emma Grede?

  Say, I mean, I'm super dyslexic. I actually don't have a problem reading, but I carried a lot of shame around it and my inability to connect with text sometimes and to take information in quickly.

• 35:12Speaker 00

  So I struggled to read. I can't learn from reading because my mind wanders.

• 35:17Emma Grede?

  So how do you learn? Oh, having a chat.

• 35:20Speaker 00

  What I had to learn to do is I had to, I couldn't skip class because if I don't hear it, I'm not learning it. I can't just skip class and go read the book. It's not going to work. And I had to learn to ask questions of my friends and of my teachers. And then I had to learn to say back what I think they're saying to me to prove that I understand it. Because if I can't say to them what I understand, then I'm going to fail the test. So they can't, I can't just ask them and they explain it to me and go, got it.

• 35:51Emma Grede?

  Got it.

• 35:52Speaker 00

  And then I sit in front of the test. I'm a goner. Because we all think we understand it until you're like, until you have to take the test and then you're done. And so I had to learn to process information that I was asking for, say it back in terms that I can understand, that they're affirming that, yes, I'm right and I'm accurate. Then I have learned it. Now I can go take the test. So that wasn't some, I had to learn that or I would fail school. So you have a choice, fail or find another way. Thank goodness, I found another way. Now that's my superpower. I'm a great believer that the solutions we find to the challenges we have as kids become our strengths as adults.

• 36:29Emma Grede?

  Oh, I couldn't agree more.

• 36:29Speaker 00

  And so, you know, this is a different conversation that, you know, you should have with better qualified people, but you know, if we, if we help our kids solve every problem, what kind of strength will they have as adults?

• 36:40Emma Grede?

  Forget about it.

• 36:40Speaker 00

  So.

• 36:41Emma Grede?

  Forget about it.

• 36:41Speaker 00

  Different conversation. Struggle, struggle, struggles are good things.

• 36:44Emma Grede?

  I would love to, it's a conversation I would love to have because I'm obsessed with, you know, like I'm a figure it out parent.

• 36:50Speaker 00

  Yes, struggle and challenge is a good thing.

• 36:52Emma Grede?

  Figure it out. And it's the best thing that you could ever do for anyone. I mean, I spent my whole life just working things out between the age of, I don't know, seven and 15, it was like, I was on my own. And, and actually, as you quite rightly say, my biggest strengths came out of those times. Because you just didn't have a choice.

• 37:11Speaker 00

  You didn't learn anything from when things went well. Do you know the story of, of, of Richard Branson, what his mom used to do?

• 37:16Emma Grede?

  No, tell me.

• 37:17Speaker 00

  They, his mom would drop him off three miles from home and say, see ya. And he would have to walk home and figure out how to get home. And she would say that it would take him hours because he would stop and look at everything and want to like explore everything. It would take him hours to get home. No, clearly, don't do that in this, in this.

• 37:42Emma Grede?

  Not now.

• 37:43Speaker 00

  Not now.

• 37:43Emma Grede?

  It was all right for Richard in the, you know.

• 37:45Speaker 00

  In the countryside.

• 37:46Emma Grede?

  In which countryside? He was saying.

• 37:48Speaker 00

  In, back in the, whatever it was, the fifties or the sixties, whatever it was, you know. So yeah, don't do that. Don't do that. But the point is, is that this entrepreneur, who's this renowned problem solver, who has no fear, where do you think that came from? It's not genetic.

• 38:05Emma Grede?

  No.

• 38:05Speaker 00

  It's because his, his mom, he was put in these difficult situations and he had a mom who pushed him and pushed him and pushed him.

• 38:10Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 38:11Speaker 00

  Our parents obviously play a huge role, but the situations we're in and like when our kids struggle, instead of swooping in, being like, all right, what are you going to do? And I'll tell you, even as an adult, the best leader I ever had, his name was Peter Intamagio. He was the big boss in the company. I worked for, he wouldn't answer a single question. It was so annoying. I'd be like, Peter, this happened. What should I do? He'd be like, I don't know. What do you think you should do? Like, why? I think we should do this. He goes, well, then you should try that, shouldn't you? And like, or I'd go to him, but Peter, what should I do? He's like, what do you think we should have? Like, if I knew, I wouldn't be asking you. He's like, well, you better come up with something. Like, the frickin bastard wouldn't answer a single question. But what he taught me was self reliance. What he taught me was to be more resourceful and ask more questions and go dig.

• 38:54Speaker 00

  And then if you come up with something, try, try in a little bit to experiment, you know? But yeah, he wouldn't fix anything for me. It was annoying.

• 39:01Emma Grede?

  It's so annoying. It sounds so annoying.

• 39:04Speaker 00

  Just fix it.

• 39:04Emma Grede?

  Just like me as a parent.

• 39:06Speaker 00

  Just tell me the answer. Make my life easier. What do you go?

• 39:09Emma Grede?

  No, but it's incredible what comes out. You know, I think about this with my kids all the time because they come up with things that I could never, I would never have told them. And I'm like, wow. And it's so individual, right? The way my 11 year old approaches things and the way my nine year old does. It couldn't be further apart. But in that is all the magic of who they are and where they're going to find their strength. Where they're going to find, you know, all the great parts and the superpowers of them.

• 39:33Speaker 00

  And as leaders, we have to be careful. You and I both have big personalities. We have a lot of opinions, right?

• 39:38Emma Grede?

  I've heard that can be problematic sometimes.

• 39:39Speaker 00

  And when we're in a meeting and somebody's talking about, should we do this or what could we do this? We say what we think and whisper is a shout. And so even though it's a thought, it becomes a, it becomes a, you know, a command or a decision. Or sometimes we do is just say, oh, just make it this, just make it that. And it's usually because we do have opinions and it's also because sometimes we give in to the pressure and the time, the timing of things.

• 40:03Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 40:04Speaker 00

  But in reality, and I have to be better at this, which is to say, well, what do you think? And defer and

• 40:11Emma Grede?

  And to speak last.

• 40:11Speaker 00

  Sometimes wait. And sometimes allow things to maybe not be as efficient.

• 40:16Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 40:17Speaker 00

  Because. I'm teaching other people how to make decisions like I was taught how to make decisions.

• 40:22Emma Grede?

  It's a great skill as a leader and I want to talk to you so much about leadership because you've got such great insights to offer. But one of the things that I love, Simon, that you talk about so much is this idea of of helping others. And, you know, I started this show because I really want this show is so much about becoming and being the best version of yourself. And you talk about the only way to do things is to do things together.

• 40:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:47Emma Grede?

  And you have this lovely quote, I don't want to kill it, but you say, there's an entire section in the bookshop that's called self-help and it should be called help others.

• 40:55Speaker 00

  And there's no section called help others. Yeah.

• 40:57Emma Grede?

  There's no section.

• 40:57Speaker 00

  That's hundred percent true. Yeah, they're like, we're obsessed with helping ourselves. And I would like us to see obsess more with helping others. That is true.

• 41:05Emma Grede?

  So why do you think our goals should be in pursuit of something broader than just ourselves? How is that helpful?

• 41:11Speaker 00

  Well, for better or for worse, we live in the world with other people. There's no getting away from it. And I don't know a single person has accomplished anything of note in their lives who did it alone.

• 41:21Emma Grede?

  Absolutely.

• 41:21Speaker 00

  Some of them may take all the credit, but I still guarantee that somebody took a risk on them, somebody made an introduction, you know, somebody said, you got this, somebody gave them some money, somebody in their hardest times said, I still believe in you.

• 41:35Emma Grede?

  A million percent. It's why I have such a problem with the term self-made because I'm like, I haven't done anything.

• 41:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I'm I'm I'm group made.

• 41:43Emma Grede?

  Group made.

• 41:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm a I'm a group made entrepreneur. Yeah, hundred percent. I mean, people took, I mean, like I told you, my publisher, I'm an unknown quantity with no followers, no TED Talk, no nothing, no big company, no track record.

• 41:56Emma Grede?

  Just a really fucking good idea.

• 41:57Speaker 00

  An idiot with an idea. And he says, I'll give you a book deal. And I had no manuscript, no nothing. I mean, how can I not say thank you to that guy for taking it? Because I talked to other publishers, like, well, can you give us a 90 page proposal and tell us what your marketing plan is? And, you know, don't get me wrong, I'm a publisher now and I like those things. But this person took a risk on me. So he's part of my success story. How can I, how can he not be?

• 42:21Emma Grede?

  Yep.

• 42:21Speaker 00

  Right? My sister, who through thick and thin, never, never left my side. How can she not be part of my success story? Right? We work together now, like we, it's not even my success story, it's our success story. And I said, I mean, I'm obsessive about it. My housekeeper in New York, I remember telling her, I remember like, just so you know, you, you are part of all of this. I said to her, you don't know, like when I come back from a business trip and I'm exhausted and I'm tired, and I walk into the, into my apartment and you, you come once every two weeks, you know, and you're amazing. And I just want you to know, you take so much pride in what you do. And I walk into my home and like, cause I left it a fricking pigsty. And I come home and you have no idea what that does for me to walk in and just be like, ah, you know?

• 43:05Speaker 00

  And I said, so the energy I have to go out and do it again, in part comes from you and that you're taking care of me. And I mean that a hundred percent, like I'm obsessed with like all the people in my life who work with pride and work with love, who, and who wanna take care of me for no other reason than they kinda get a kick out of me. They are a part of the story. It's not just, it's not just the people with the connections and the thing like, this is somebody who, and it, and is a hundred percent true. It's a hundred percent true.

• 43:31Emma Grede?

  And you believe that true fulfillment can only come when your, your larger goals, your larger pursuit is in something like bigger than just you. You have to be helping others.

• 43:41Speaker 00

  You have to be helping others. I mean, we, first of all, if you look at all of the things that we want in life, like we wanna be trusted and trusting, right? Everybody wants that. Okay, well, here's a bad, some bad news for you. You don't build trust from people by offering them help. You build trust by asking for it. Giving someone the opportunity to serve, right, is an act of service. A friend of mine.

• 44:07Emma Grede?

  Say that again for me, Simon. Giving somebody the opportunity to serve is an act of service. I think that's such an amazing framework because there would be so many people sitting, listening to this thinking, how do I help someone? I have so little, but you're actually saying allowing someone to help you.

• 44:23Speaker 00

  Let someone in.

• 44:24Emma Grede?

  Being vulnerable, being open about what you need, letting someone in.

• 44:28Speaker 00

  Let someone in.

• 44:28Emma Grede?

  Is an act of service in itself.

• 44:30Speaker 00

  It is, it is more than an act of service. It is an essential component of being human. We're social animals. We need each other. And people want to feel needed. People want to feel wanted. And people want to feel like they matter. Nobody will feel like that if you just go to them and go, "You matter. Write it on your mirror in the morning. You matter." Right? Daily affirmations aren't gonna do that. Okay? They're a salve. They'll feel good in the moment and then you will forget. Twenty seconds, right? They're a nice little hit. Right? If you really want that feeling of value in the world, to make you feel like you matter, give somebody else the opportunity that they matter. And the easiest way for somebody to feel like they matter

• 45:13Speaker 00

  is for you to tell them that you need their help and their help will help you. And not because you want them to do a job, but because you are stuck and you don't know how to do this.

• 45:24Emma Grede?

  I love that so much because I think especially for women, we feel constantly like we have to be there for everyone else. And that reframing to think that actually by being vulnerable, by asking for help, you're giving somebody else the honor of serving their purpose, of being in service.

• 45:45Speaker 00

  That's true vulnerability.

• 45:46Emma Grede?

  Something else.

• 45:47Speaker 00

  And we've distorted it. That's true vulnerability. I see it all the time. Like when I watch social media, I see somebody post a video.

• 45:56Emma Grede?

  The crying video.

• 45:57Speaker 00

  The crying video. "I just broke up with my boyfriend or girlfriend. I'm just struggling and thank you guys for being there for me." You know, I don't know how many times they shot that, first of all, like what take that was, but we'll put that aside. Let's just.

• 46:12Emma Grede?

  You know it wasn't one.

• 46:13Speaker 00

  Let's give them the benefit of.

• 46:14Emma Grede?

  Let's say we know it wasn't one.

• 46:15Speaker 00

  Let's give them the benefit of the doubt.

• 46:16Emma Grede?

  You're far more generous than I am. I'm like, "Take fucking fifteen. She got it. She cried appropriately."

• 46:21Speaker 00

  Let's go.

• 46:22Emma Grede?

  Appropriate tears.

• 46:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, let's give the benefit of the doubt that it was a one and done. But and they're pouring their heart out about the pain they're in. "And I just want to share this with you and this is what I'm struggling with. And this is my day." And my question is, is call a friend, better sit with a friend and say every single word you just said on camera.

• 46:47Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 46:47Speaker 00

  And by the way, that's way more difficult. It is way more difficult to sit eye to eye with somebody or even on the phone. Not a text. Eye to eye with somebody and be like, I just broke up and I don't know what I'm doing. And it hurts. It's easier to say when you're sitting by yourself in your room with a camera than it is to say to a friend. And if you want to feel loved and if you want to give someone else the ability to love you and the feeling that they matter and the opportunity to serve, that's vulnerability. It happens privately.

• 47:21Emma Grede?

  But why has that become so very difficult? Why is it easier to cry alone and share with however many followers you've got than call a mate that really knows you?

• 47:32Speaker 00

  Because I think there's distortion of the word vulnerable, right? I think there's a difference between broadcasting your emotion. Brene Brown talks about this as well. Like, there's a difference between broadcasting your emotions and being vulnerable. They are not the same thing. Vulnerability, another word for it, like, and I don't like the word because it's kind of lost its definition because it's so overused. A friend of mine doesn't use the word vulnerable, what she uses is the word available, which I really like. I want to be available. I want to make my emotions available to my friends to hear them. I want to be available to other people's opinions. I want to be available to the uncomfortable feeling of being helped.

• 48:13Speaker 00

  I want to be available that someone, that I make mistakes and someone knows how to help me. I like the term available. And I, and I don't think that when you're, when we're posting online, we're that available. We're inaccessible. We're over there.

• 48:30Speaker 00

  Like, on to the next.

• 48:31Emma Grede?

  On to the next.

• 48:32Speaker 00

  You know, and look, don't get me wrong. When people post these things, it does help people feel seen and heard. I'm not debating.

• 48:39Emma Grede?

  Partially, I mean, I'm good, I guess there's a.

• 48:41Speaker 00

  I'm not debating that there isn't value in some of it. But the thing that I I'm questioning is, is are we actually, again, is it a short term thing? Because at the end of the day, we have to do the work ourselves, right? That's why I say start with why, like, I'll give you a great starting point. I will give you an amazing, I will guide you, I will coach you, and I will get you to the starting.

• 49:05Emma Grede?

  But the rest you've got to do yourself.

• 49:06Speaker 00

  But you've got to run the race yourself. I'll cheer you from the sidelines. I'll hand you a glass of water now and then. Every now and then, if your ankle hurts, I'll give you some, you know, I'll give you something that'll help your ankle. But it's your race to run. Like, the coach stands on the sideline, the coach doesn't play. You know, so I think we forget that part, which is at some point, you you got to get in the race. And at some point, you're going to get tired, and at some point, you're going to get demotivated, and at some point, you want to give up. And at some point, you think you're weak, and at some point, you trip over. And again, it's it's unbelievably helpful to having people cheering from the sidelines, to know that we're not alone. I I ran the New York City Marathon many years ago. Friends of mine who had done it told me to do something, which was kind of corny, but I did it.

• 49:48Speaker 00

  I wrote my name on my shirt, just in electrical tape.

• 49:52Emma Grede?

  I love that.

• 49:52Speaker 00

  I just in electrical tape wrote my name on the front of my shirt.

• 49:54Emma Grede?

  So we could all cheer for you.

• 49:55Speaker 00

  But people would cheer my name as I run back, and it made a difference.

• 49:58Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 49:59Speaker 00

  People screamed my name as I ran past, and it mattered.

• 50:02Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 50:03Speaker 00

  Right?

• 50:03Emma Grede?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:03Speaker 00

  It was an amazing thing.

• 50:05Emma Grede?

  I've been on the sidelines, and whoever's name you say, you're like, come on, Michael.

• 50:09Speaker 00

  Like, it's an amazing, but I can tell you from the receiving end.

• 50:12Emma Grede?

  It's amazing, yeah.

• 50:13Speaker 00

  It's all of a sudden, you feel like they're cheering for you. Clearly, they're not, but.

• 50:16Emma Grede?

  I was.

• 50:17Speaker 00

  Well, then, then.

• 50:18Emma Grede?

  Come on.

• 50:18Speaker 00

  But but maybe they were, maybe they were, maybe I shouldn't be so cynical. You know, they saw my name and they cheered for me, you know? And so it's only reinforcing the point that we've said, which is this is a group effort. We need each other, but you have to let people in to help you to make it a group.

• 50:32Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 50:33Speaker 00

  It's only you, if you're the only, if you're only, if you're always the helper, that's martyrdom. That is not healthy.

• 50:39Emma Grede?

  That's different.

• 50:40Speaker 00

  That is different.

• 50:40Emma Grede?

  So you say that fulfillment comes from service.

• 50:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:44Emma Grede?

  What does that look like for somebody, you know, someone who's just going through life every day? Someone who's not necessarily leading a team or a company, but still really wants to make a difference?

• 50:56Speaker 00

  Do you do you have a colleague?

• 50:58Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 50:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, you can be the most junior person in the world, right? And the most entry level. You're just graduated school and you got your first job. And sitting next to you is the other kid who started yesterday. Look after them, take care of them. You good?

• 51:12Emma Grede?

  That's being in service.

• 51:13Speaker 00

  Of course. It's services is uncomfortably simple. It's worrying about the person to the left and the person to the right.

• 51:21Emma Grede?

  Like, like. It's the basic stuff.

• 51:22Speaker 00

  It's very simple things. It's, it's very basic stuff. It's the, it's the person to the left, it's the person to the right. It's that my, a friend of mine who's a general in the Marine Corps. He says his test for leadership, and I would argue is a test for leader, as a test for service, is that when, when you ask somebody how they're doing, you actually care about the answer. As opposed to, how are you? Good, good.

• 51:43Emma Grede?

  Moving on.

• 51:43Speaker 00

  Like, we ask the question to be polite. But if somebody's like, ah, it's been a rough day. You'd be like, oh, I can't, I can't right now. Then don't ask the question. It's okay not to ask the question. But if you're gonna ask, do you actually care about the answer? And that's his test for leader, leadership. And I would argue that somebody who chooses a life of service is what I would call a leader. That's what a leader is. You choose, leadership is the acceptance of the awesome responsibility. Awesome by all its definitions. It's amazing, but it's also big, right? It's the acceptance of the awesome responsibility to see those around us rise. That's what leadership is. It sounds like being a parent. It's true.

• 52:27Speaker 00

  You've accepted the awesome responsibility to see these little people rise and become the best versions of themselves. Sounds like a good leader at work. Sounds like a good entry level job. I'm gonna, I'm gonna make sure that you, you good? You're good? We're good. You know? It's, it's, it's a relationship.

• 52:43Emma Grede?

  It's a relationship.

• 52:43Speaker 00

  You know? And my definition of a, of a friendship, my definition of a successful romantic relationship, my definition of a successful corporate culture, my definition of a community is all the same definition. A relationship is two people who we agree to see each other rise. A community is a group of people who agree to see each, to help each other rise. A successful romantic relationship is two people who agree to help each other rise.

• 53:10Emma Grede?

  What a beautiful definition.

• 53:12Speaker 00

  Actually, I'd even take it a step further. It's a, it's the agreement to see each other grow.

• 53:17Speaker 00

  More than rise. A community is a group of people who agree to grow together. A strong corporate culture is a group of people who agree to grow together. A good romantic relationship is two people who agree to grow together. A successful friendship is two people who agree to grow together. There are different definitions of how you do that, right? And that's why we need all those relationships. And there are different ways you do that. But you and I both know this, which is the most successful friendships I have, the best corporate cultures I've ever worked for, the best romantic relationships I've ever had, that whether those relationships succeeded or failed, I am a better version of myself because of the relationship, not in spite of it.

• 53:54Emma Grede?

  Yes, no doubt.

• 53:56Speaker 00

  And?

• 53:56Emma Grede?

  No doubt.

• 53:57Speaker 00

  And they would say the same.

• 53:59Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 54:00Speaker 00

  That it didn't work for whatever reason, but I am grateful. I am a better version of me. And to build a corporate culture and be a leader, where every single one of us shows up to help each other grow and be the best versions of ourselves. So when you show up on that entry day, like it's so hard because we want to prove we're worthy, when we're proved that they made the right choice to hire us. We want to prove that we're promotable and prove that we're great. And, and, not or, and do the exact same thing for the people sitting next to us. I want to help you be the best version of you. I want to help you be the best version of you. And that means I can't do the work for you. I can't swoop in and solve all the problems. But I can stand on the sidelines and I can be there to sit in the mud when you need me to.

• 54:45Speaker 03

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• 55:15Speaker 06

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• 56:00Speaker 06

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• 56:21Emma Grede?

  So in your view, and I really want to get into leadership because this is somewhere where I think your view is so fascinating and so required, actually, for where we are right now. What do you think is the most misunderstood aspects of being a leader? What do people get wrong?

• 56:39Speaker 00

  Oh, it's simple. Most people think being the leader is being in charge. That's what they think. Incorrect. Being a leader means you take care of those in your charge. Being a leader, as I said, is the acceptance of the awesome responsibility to see those around you rise, whether you have formal rank or not. You and I both know lots of people who are very, very senior, who people do as they say because they have authority, but nobody trusts them, nobody likes them, nobody would quit a job for them to follow them.

• 57:11Speaker 00

  And you and I both know people who may or may not have that much formal authority, but people trust them and love them and would follow them anywhere. And if they left, a group of people would follow and go with them. That's leadership. Leadership is, is, is, is an act of service. And when people feel like you have their back and you want to see them succeed, they will reward you with love and loyalty. That's what happens.

• 57:35Emma Grede?

  Do you think that great leaders can exist in bad corporate culture?

• 57:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, of course. Yeah, of course.

• 57:43Emma Grede?

  And what do you do about that? If you feel like you're a leader that has your team's back, that has, is there to look after everyone around you and to see people rise around you, but you're in a bread of a shitty culture, what is that? What do you do?

• 57:58Speaker 00

  So for, for the, so, I mean, kind of talking about middle management. I mean, middle management's the most difficult job in a company.

• 58:07Speaker 00

  For so many reasons. One, we don't train people how to lead. We just, you're like, oh, you did your job. Now you're a leader. You're a manager. Congratulations, right? And my turn, my friend Bob Chapman, you know, he's right about this, which is, we should stop using the term manager. Nobody wakes up in the morning to be managed. Nobody wants to be managed. We want to be led. Like, be my leader, not my manager, right? You can't lead a company. You can run a company, but you can only lead people. People, being a leader is a relationship. So what people get wrong is they think they're a leader when they've been anointed with a title or a rank. All that means is you've achieved some level of accomplishment and somebody has sought fit to, to bring you up in the ranks. You may or may not be a good leader,

• 58:51Speaker 00

  but you fit whatever promotion standard the company has set. Leadership is a, is a, is a choice, first and foremost. Like being a parent, you know, you're technically a parent if you have a child, but you become a parent when you raise a child.

• 59:06Emma Grede?

  Oh, yeah.

• 59:06Speaker 00

  Right? So, yeah, the biggest mistake people make is you're, you're not a leader simply, simply because you have a rank or a title. Leadership, leadership is a, is a choice and it's, it's a lot of work.

• 59:17Speaker 00

  It's the choice to see another person rise and grow, that you're going to be a part of that journey.

• 59:21Emma Grede?

  Do you think that, and have you seen in your past horrible leaders that actually can change their style of leadership and become, because I'm sure that there are so many people here that work for what they would consider, you know, a manager and not a leader.

• 59:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:36Emma Grede?

  And so what do you do in that position?

• 59:39Speaker 00

  So again, one of the core principles of being a good leader is empathy. So let us not assume that because somebody's a bad leader, that they're a bad person. I went for a walk with a friend of mine. She goes, I need your advice. I said, go ahead. She goes, my boss is a horrible person. She's a horrible person. I said, oh, my God, does she, does she abuse her, her dog? She goes, what? I said, does she come home and kick the dog? She goes, no. I'm like, is she, she a horrible mother? She goes, no. I said, okay, so we don't know that she's a horrible person. She might be, but we don't know that.

• 1:00:08Emma Grede?

  Frank is so frustrated.

• 1:00:09Speaker 00

  All we know, all we know is she's a horrible leader.

• 1:00:12Emma Grede?

  She's horrible, okay?

• 1:00:13Speaker 00

  All we know is that she's a horrible leader. That's all we know. Right? And maybe she's a horrible leader because she's had terrible role models, that the people who she, who got promoted in front of her stabbed people in the back, so she followed them and it kept working. So maybe she had bad role models. Maybe she had a bad incentive structure at the company she worked for. Maybe she's painfully insecure. Maybe she's responding incredibly badly to the insane amount of pressure that's on her from up above, which we have no idea. We don't know who, if somebody's yelling at her because, because of the, because of the stock price. Like, I, we don't know. All we know is that she's showing up badly. So the part of it is like, yeah, we work for some bad leaders, but they're not necessarily bad people. And that's a huge distinction.

• 1:00:56Speaker 00

  Because by recognizing someone's a bad leader, I can say, okay, they haven't learned, they're under pressure, they're Peter Principleed out, they shouldn't have the job, they're insecure, they're afraid. Okay, I'm going to adjust the way I speak because I know that. I'm going to adjust the way I interact with them because I know that. I'm going to give some grace because I know that. And what you're doing is becoming the leader you wish you had. That's what's happened.

• 1:01:19Emma Grede?

  Exactly. What do you say to people in a position of leadership that if you were to give three simple things to become a better leader, what should you do?

• 1:01:32Speaker 00

  I'll answer the question.

• 1:01:33Emma Grede?

  Go on. Why do you laugh? I wanna know why you laugh.

• 1:01:36Speaker 00

  What are the three simple things that I have to do to be healthy? I wish I could tell you that. I know you need to exercise. I know you need to.

• 1:01:41Emma Grede?

  I know him. You gotta go to sleep. You gotta eat well. You gotta exercise.

• 1:01:45Speaker 00

  But those are not three simple things. Those are three monumental things.

• 1:01:48Emma Grede?

  They are monumental.

• 1:01:49Speaker 00

  Tell me three monumental things that I have to do to be a better leader.

• 1:01:52Emma Grede?

  Tell me. Give me the three monumental things that you need to do.

• 1:01:57Speaker 00

  Three monumental things you have to do to be a better leader, in no particular order. All of them are about human skills. Okay, because remember, we've learned hard skills to do our jobs. What we've been neglecting are the human skills. I need to be, and being a leader is a human enterprise. You're responsible for the lives of other human beings, which means you have to be a better listener. And I don't mean hearing words, listening for meaning, listening for feelings, active listening. If you're really good at active listening, at the end of it, you're exhausted. Because it's really hard to be present and put your own attention aside for a second, your own opinions aside, to learn what somebody else is going through. So, active listening is a huge one. Another one is, you have to be a student of leadership. Every parent reads books about parenting, reads articles about parenting,

• 1:02:42Speaker 00

  talks to other friends who are parents, and talks to their own parents about how to be a parent. You are a constant student of the thing you're trying to be. Right? So you have to elect to be a student of leadership. You have to read the books. You have to read the articles. You have to watch the talks. You have to have conversations about it constantly. I go out with friends who are unbelievably, like, they've done amazing things. They hold amazing positions. You know what we talk about? Leadership. We talk about the struggles we have, the politics and the difficulty and the person. We compare notes. We give each other ideas constantly. Like, I write books on leadership and I still consider myself a student of leadership. I'm not an expert. I'm a student. Right? So number one.

• 1:03:21Emma Grede?

  Well, you have to be, because the people you're leading are always changing. Everyone's changing.

• 1:03:25Speaker 00

  And challenges are different, and culture is different, and politics are different, and generations are different.

• 1:03:31Emma Grede?

  And generations are different.

• 1:03:33Speaker 00

  And generations are different. If you're leading based on what you learned 20 years ago.

• 1:03:36Emma Grede?

  You're out.

• 1:03:36Speaker 00

  You're out.

• 1:03:37Emma Grede?

  You're out. Forget about it.

• 1:03:38Speaker 00

  It's like you kids in your rock and roll. It's like, you're done.

• 1:03:40Emma Grede?

  No, of course, it's nothing like running a company.

• 1:03:42Speaker 00

  No, no, it's all, all the rules are changing.

• 1:03:45Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:45Speaker 00

  No, the basic human principles are the same. People want to know that they matter. People want to know that their work matters. People want to know that they're valued and valuable. People want to feel trusted and trusting. People want to feel seen, heard and understood. Those things are universal, cross cultures, cross generations. Nothing has changed there. So the things that I'm telling you about, listening, I'm talking about being the student because you have to keep up to date on all the things. And then the third one is like, pretty much everything else, right? If you can, you heard what I just said, which is like, people want to feel like they matter and their work matters. People want to feel like they're trusted and trusting. People want to feel seen, heard and understood. Do you have the skills to do those things? Listening, empathy, how to resolve conflict, how to have difficult conversations, how to, how to do recognition and reward.

• 1:04:30Speaker 00

  It's not simply by just giving people bonuses.

• 1:04:32Emma Grede?

  No.

• 1:04:32Speaker 00

  Right? And so do all those things that make people feel seen, heard and understood like they matter, you're on your, you're doing great to being a leader. Or a friend. Or a parent.

• 1:04:43Emma Grede?

  Or just a good parent.

• 1:04:44Speaker 00

  Or a good person, like, and, and the reason these things.

• 1:04:46Emma Grede?

  I say simple because again, a lot of those things would come so naturally.

• 1:04:50Speaker 00

  Simple but not easy.

• 1:04:51Emma Grede?

  To me.

• 1:04:52Speaker 00

  Simple but not easy.

• 1:04:53Emma Grede?

  You know, it's just, yeah.

• 1:04:54Speaker 00

  Simple but not easy.

• 1:04:55Emma Grede?

  Do you think that there are born leaders? Like that people are just born that way and they're going to be excellent leaders?

• 1:05:01Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:05:01Emma Grede?

  Why not?

• 1:05:02Speaker 00

  No, it goes back to the why. It's how they were raised. Some of them seem to be born leaders because they were lucky enough to have a coach or a parent or an experience when they were young or hardship that they had to learn to cope with. They gave them those skills at a much earlier age than the rest of us and they show up a little later on, you're like, whoa, born leader, not born leader.

• 1:05:21Emma Grede?

  No.

• 1:05:21Speaker 00

  Mahatma Gandhi was a failed lawyer in the UK who failed the bar. Okay, he was, he was, he was working to be a lawyer. He was working to be a lawyer and he moved to South Africa because he, because I think that, I don't remember, it was easier, right? Became a lawyer there, saw the injustices and the racism there. And it, and it changed him. It gave him an opportunity to be the leader he didn't think he was going to be. You go look at early videos of Steve Jobs. This remarkable orator, this remarkable leader. He's bumbling, he's fumbling, he's useless, he's insecure, he's self doubting. There's some videos on YouTube of him doing early interviews.

• 1:06:03Emma Grede?

  Yeah, I've seen him.

• 1:06:04Speaker 00

  And they happen to have the camera rolling before the camera and he's, he literally feels sick. He says, I feel sick. I think I have to go throw up. You know?

• 1:06:12Emma Grede?

  Oh shit, that's crazy.

• 1:06:14Speaker 00

  He learned it. He got the reps. He got the reps. It's like the first day of the gym, you're weak. And it hurts and you don't want to go back and you can't walk for two days because you did legs. And you're like, I can't even work out because my muscles don't work. And once the pain goes away, for whatever stupid reason, you go back.

• 1:06:35Emma Grede?

  You go back.

• 1:06:35Speaker 00

  And then you do it again. And it hurts and you're embarrassed because you've got these rinky dink little weights. And everybody's looking at you as they're lifting big weights. And so you're humiliated. And you go back and you look in the mirror and you don't like what you see. And you go back. And all of the empirical evidence is telling you, stop, stop. You're humiliated, you're weak, it hurts and you go back. That's why they're, they're made and not born. Is they keep going back over and over again because, but why would they keep going back? It's because they believe that it's worth it.

• 1:07:14Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:14Speaker 00

  And this was where purpose and cause comes in, which is there's something bigger than me that I think is worth it. It's bigger than me. I think it's worth going back over and over again. The pain has to feel worth it.

• 1:07:27Emma Grede?

  So what question do you wish business leaders would ask themselves more?

• 1:07:32Speaker 00

  What question do I wish business leaders would ask themselves more?

• 1:07:36Emma Grede?

  But they rarely do.

• 1:07:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. What more can I learn?

• 1:07:38Emma Grede?

  What more can I learn?

• 1:07:39Speaker 00

  You know, I'm very cynical of the business leaders who say, I think I know what I'm doing. And I'm like, okay, not gonna work out.

• 1:07:46Emma Grede?

  No, I feel like in general, in every part of our lives, you have to constantly be in learning mode. Like you're never done.

• 1:07:52Speaker 00

  And here's the problem with what more can I learn, right? Here's the problem with the question. It's a loaded, it's a loaded question, right? Which is. I don't know.

• 1:08:01Emma Grede?

  No, you don't know.

• 1:08:02Speaker 00

  Which means, which means I have to be curious.

• 1:08:06Emma Grede?

  Yep.

• 1:08:07Speaker 00

  Which means I have to get three sixty reviews for somebody to show me my blind spots. Cause I don't, I don't know what I don't know.

• 1:08:14Emma Grede?

  You still seek those out even now?

• 1:08:16Speaker 00

  Oh, my God, yes. Oh, my God, yes. And I have recurring ones, which are the really frustrating ones. I'm like, I knew it. I did it again.

• 1:08:24Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:24Speaker 00

  You know, for sure.

• 1:08:25Emma Grede?

  Cause even you, you're never done learning about this. Well, even you that's written like three bestselling books about this and speak so beautifully and articulately about it. And somebody that we all sit here and tune in to listen to, like even you doesn't have it totally down.

• 1:08:40Speaker 00

  A hundred percent correct. All I'm doing is running my race. And except of, instead of having the pain and frustration and lessons and realizations in my mind, I'm broadcasting them. Okay, this hurts right now at this point of this mile. Oh, I learned.

• 1:08:56Emma Grede?

  It's terrible.

• 1:08:57Speaker 00

  Here's a technique that helps you get through the pain at mile twelve. That's all I'm doing.

• 1:09:01Emma Grede?

  If you said it like that, we'd all know. It's just cause you say it.

• 1:09:04Speaker 00

  I'm just, I'm simply writing books.

• 1:09:05Emma Grede?

  With such authority.

• 1:09:07Speaker 00

  I mean.

• 1:09:07Emma Grede?

  We were all like, okay, write it down.

• 1:09:09Speaker 00

  I mean, you know, it works.

• 1:09:10Emma Grede?

  Simon said.

• 1:09:10Speaker 00

  You know, strong opinions loosely held. The, the, but I mean, I'm in the, I'm in the race too. I'm not on the sidelines. I don't have it all figured out.

• 1:09:18Emma Grede?

  That is part of your allure, that we are very, very clear that we are, that we're learning with you, that you are talking to us in a way where you're not the know it.

• 1:09:29Speaker 00

  Good.

• 1:09:29Emma Grede?

  It's like you, you're coming to us with the problems and with the scenarios and the situations. And I think that people do wanna unlearn. You know, bad habits, toxic behaviors. People do sit in their organizations and say, okay, I'm here. What do I do next? And that's why I've loved following you for so long. Do you think that you can undo a toxic culture? If somebody is, if a leader has a team in a toxic culture, what do they start to do? They start to ask themselves questions like, should I be in this company? Should I just quit? Can I undo it? Is it worth my time? What do you say to people?

• 1:10:07Speaker 00

  Make the implicit explicit. Take the thing that everybody knows to be true and put it on the table. And I've done it in my organization as the leader, but you can do it at any level, right? Which is, hey, folks, this is not a fun place to work. I'm not enjoying it and I can't believe I'm the only one. I know that we are gossipy.

• 1:10:29Speaker 00

  That's not good. I know that we don't trust each other. That's not good. I know some things that we could probably do to make it better. I don't know where to start. But I do know that it's not good for us and nobody wants to work in a place like this. So we have a couple of choices. We can ignore it and just chip away at it and be passive aggressive. Or we can raise our hands and say, you know what? I gotta work here. Might as well try and make it a bit better. That's it. I'm not asking anything. I'm not telling anything. I'm just making the implicit explicit. I'm just saying, I'm saying how I feel.

• 1:11:10Emma Grede?

  What happens when you do that, Simon?

• 1:11:12Speaker 00

  So there's a few things that happen. Don't expect immediate results, number one, right? What it does is it makes weirdly people feel seen and heard, right? Because like, people will say, be like, you're right. I feel that about this place too. Okay, now you have a partner and camaraderie and a potential supporter, right? Not everybody's gonna wanna help because some of them benefit from that culture. They know how to work those politics. So they're gonna be resistant. That's gonna happen too. They might even be, they might double down on difficult, right? That'll happen too. But if you get a critical mass of people like, let's do it for each other.

• 1:11:45Emma Grede?

  Yeah, cuz you always let people that say, that doesn't exist here.

• 1:11:48Speaker 00

  You silence, you silence the bullies. But making the implicit explicit is a very difficult and very powerful tool. Difficult because it's, nobody wants to say it. No, no leader wants to admit that their culture's crap in front of everybody.

• 1:11:59Emma Grede?

  No, cuz that's you putting your hands up saying, I've fucked up here. I've done something wrong to get us into this situation.

• 1:12:05Speaker 00

  And that's the other part.

• 1:12:06Emma Grede?

  And I need you lot.

• 1:12:07Speaker 00

  But that's the other part, which is accountability. You make this culture awful. No, no, no, no. I, I, I recognize I'm a part of the problem here.

• 1:12:14Emma Grede?

  I'm a part of it.

• 1:12:15Speaker 00

  And I recognize I've done, made many mistakes and I'm on my own journey. But at the end, but it's, it's like a personal relationship, right? Which is, when you're, you know, you know this from, if you have a successful romantic relationship or even a successful friendship, you know, when you have a fight, it can't be me versus you.

• 1:12:32Emma Grede?

  Never.

• 1:12:32Speaker 00

  It has to be you and me versus the problem. And it takes the leader, and it can be either one at any time.

• 1:12:41Speaker 00

  To sometimes have the self-awareness in the moment of anger and heat to interrupt what's happening.

• 1:12:47Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:48Speaker 00

  And I remember I was fighting with my girlfriend. This is how the fight went. Here's what I did right and here's what you did wrong. And her response was, here's what I did right and here's what you did wrong.

• 1:12:56Emma Grede?

  Now, that can go on for a while.

• 1:12:57Speaker 00

  And this was going on for a while.

• 1:12:58Emma Grede?

  Hmm.

• 1:12:59Speaker 00

  And I realized this was going nowhere and I realized we were trying to be right and make the other person wrong. Fortunately, in that moment, I had the wherewithal to interrupt and say, this is, this is not gonna work. I need to change the rules of this fight.

• 1:13:12Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:13Speaker 00

  And I said, here are the new rules of the fight. I'm gonna tell you what I did wrong and I'm gonna tell you what you did right. I'll go first. And I said, here's what I got wrong and here's what you got right. And she goes, yeah, well, here's what I got wrong and here's what you got right. And in 30 seconds, we realized we're both trying.

• 1:13:24Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:25Speaker 00

  And it was us versus the problem. But the leader is the, we call you leader not because you're at the top. We call you leader because you went first.

• 1:13:32Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:32Speaker 00

  First towards the unknown and first towards the danger. The first person to say, this is, this, this, not, this place sucks to work. No, no, no, no. This place can be a better place to work.

• 1:13:43Emma Grede?

  A million percent.

• 1:13:43Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:13:44Emma Grede?

  But also, you have to be the first to rise up, right? The first one that comes up above the fray and says, here's what I'm seeing. Are you feeling me too?

• 1:13:51Speaker 00

  And here's how I feel.

• 1:13:52Emma Grede?

  And here's how, are you feeling what I'm feeling right now and can we all get on the same page?

• 1:13:56Speaker 00

  And I'm not making anybody wrong. I'm not making anybody wrong.

• 1:13:59Emma Grede?

  Just is what it is.

• 1:14:00Speaker 00

  Right? It is what it is. I'm gonna tell you how I feel because my feelings are always valid. You can, you can disagree with me if I make, if I, if I make conclusions. And so the leader isn't the person who's in charge. The leader is the person with the courage to go first into the unknown, into the danger. The first to put their neck out to protect everybody else. We call you leader because you went first.

• 1:14:21Emma Grede?

  Because you went first.

• 1:14:22Speaker 00

  You lead.

• 1:14:32Emma Grede?

  Having worked with so many leaders over the years, what do you see as the most common traits in the great, the most inspiring leaders you've been able to work with?

• 1:14:42Speaker 00

  Easy, easy, easy, easy. It's courage. And I think you can't have courage without integrity. I think those two are inextricably linked. I think courage and integrity, the courage to speak truth to power, the courage to be honest about my own failings, the courage to make the implicit explicit, the courage to change the rules of the argument so that it's you and me versus the problem, not me versus you, the courage to change the narrative when we label a colleague lazy, stupid, arrogant, and say, well, maybe they're just insecure, or maybe they're struggling, or maybe we put them in the wrong job, or maybe they don't know the rules. Like, they could be stupid, lazy, or arrogant, but there could be other things too. The courage to do all those things and the integrity. Courage takes integrity, integrity takes courage. You can't separate the two. I don't think you can have one without the other. I don't know which one comes first,

• 1:15:27Speaker 00

  but I know that when you practice one, you get the other. When you practice courage, you get integrity. When you get integrity, you get courage.

• 1:15:35Emma Grede?

  So you've just got to practice and you get.

• 1:15:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, and courage without integrity is bluster, foolhardy, pigheaded. It can be mistaken for courage. Because real courage, real courage, like I said, to me, real courage is the willingness to run towards danger to protect others.

• 1:15:57Emma Grede?

  Well, and also, there is that piece, just going back to what you said about vulnerability, right? Because you have to be vulnerable and be willing for other people to see your vulnerability to be truly courageous.

• 1:16:12Speaker 00

  It's also to be believed. If you present yourself as perfect all the time and having all the answers, it backfires. One, nobody believes you because nobody has all the answers and knows everything. That's number one. Number two, you make other people feel insecure because they don't have all the answers and they don't have any, and they have doubts. So they see you always confident and always with the answers. So, oh my God, it must be me. So the ones with a lot of self-confidence will not believe you and the ones that have any cracks in their self-confidence will, their insecurities will exaggerate. And so if you pretend to know all the answers, it's, it may be the single biggest mistake that leaders make,

• 1:16:56Speaker 00

  which is, I have to know all the answers and I have to, I have to present confidence at every moment. That's how I have my credibility.

• 1:17:04Emma Grede?

  That's the single biggest mistake.

• 1:17:05Speaker 00

  I think so. The opposite is true. You get more credibility, you'll be like, look, here's a huge frickin' problem and I have no clue where to start. And I think people mistake being vulnerable with not having confidence. Because vulnerable sounds weak. That's why I like the term available. Doesn't sound weak, right?

• 1:17:20Emma Grede?

  Yeah, I guess in a corporate culture, you'd much rather use.

• 1:17:24Speaker 00

  Available.

• 1:17:25Emma Grede?

  Well, this is something I'm fascinated about by you because you've orientated your life around this idea of optimism now, right? You have the podcast, you have your company. Like, what does that actually mean?

• 1:17:36Speaker 00

  Backpack the coffee.

• 1:17:40Speaker 00

  I have the press, I have a publishing house.

• 1:17:42Emma Grede?

  You have your own imprint.

• 1:17:44Speaker 00

  I have an imprint.

• 1:17:44Emma Grede?

  Which is incredible.

• 1:17:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, optimism press. Thank you, optimism press, which is in partnership with.

• 1:17:48Emma Grede?

  Well, you talk to me a little bit about that. Like, why optimism right now?

• 1:17:51Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 1:17:52Emma Grede?

  Yeah, no, I want, because, listen, I can sit here and, you know, make up my own reasons. I want to hear it from you.

• 1:17:57Speaker 00

  People, I love it when people say to me, Simon, in these times, you know, optimism. Like, yes, like, what? Do you want me to have optimism in the, when everybody's feeling great? I mean, like, what? No, optimism is important all the time. And I think you're right. You started this podcast by saying, we are living in a period right now where there is a distinct lack of optimism. I think that's 100% true. Okay, why is there a distinct lack of optimism? We talk about the rising epidemic of insecurity and loneliness and anxiety and depression, and in the worst case, suicide. Those are all a lack of optimism, too. I would argue that the reason we're suffering a lack of optimism is because we have no sense of belonging. And you can see people desperately looking for something. You know, you see it in the politics.

• 1:18:41Speaker 00

  You know, on the left, it might be sort of Palestine or anti-Israel. On the right, it might be anti-vax or anti-mask or whatever the thing is. And they're grasping onto anything that gives them a sense of cause or belonging. And it has all the trappings of it. It feels like it. You have community camaraderie, you're around people that are all rah rah, we all have each other's backs.

• 1:19:01Emma Grede?

  We're together.

• 1:19:02Speaker 00

  We're together. But for the fact that we don't know where you're going. We don't know what you stand for. I know what you stand against. Definitely know that. But I don't know what you stand for. And if you get your way, then what? If you get your way, what, where are you going? What's, what's the vision? Like, what's the world you're trying to build? Right? And so I have no problem with articulating something that's standing in the way of my vision. But when you have some, when you label an enemy or an anti with no sense of vision.

• 1:19:38Speaker 00

  It has the feelings of belonging, but it's not belonging. Because it'll go away, and then you'll have to grasp onto something else, and the next thing, and the next thing, and we're seeing it happen.

• 1:19:45Emma Grede?

  That's it.

• 1:19:46Speaker 00

  We're seeing it happen on the left, we're seeing it happen on the right. You know, we've changed what the cancel culture looks like, and then we're all in on we're all in on that until we're all in on the next thing. Because if you truly have purpose and cause, it's your whole life for that one thing that you believe in, and it's not the thing you're against, it's the thing you're for. It's the, I imagine a world, I have a dream, I believe.

• 1:20:06Emma Grede?

  What do you believe?

• 1:20:07Speaker 00

  I imagine a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are, and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. That is the world that I imagine. There are many things standing in the way, existing business practices, old fashioned leadership styles, the way that we run our companies, shareholder supremacy, short termism. These things are standing in the way of the vision that I have, which is why I have committed myself to one of the things we have to overcome, which is the leadership challenge and the way we build a corporate corporate culture. I want people to feel happy at work. It's a Trojan horse, right? The reason I picked work is because that's where all the people are. During the Great Depression, there was 25% unemployment. What I hear is 75% still have a job. If you want to get people, get them at work.

• 1:20:49Speaker 00

  So if I can teach people the human skills of listening and empathy, and how to resolve conflict, and how to have difficult conversations, and how to see each other as human, and how to change narratives, and I can teach all that at work. Why? Because it makes work better, and it makes corporate culture better, and it makes all those things better, and you make more money, blah, blah, blah. Great. And then you go home, and you know how to talk to your kids better, you know how to listen to your spouse better, you know how to deal with stress better, you know how to talk to your neighbors, you know how to have difficult conversations at the Thanksgiving table with your crazy uncle, who you disagree with, but it doesn't trigger anybody, and you know how to keep peace, and you know how to make people feel seen and heard and understood, and the world gets better. It is a Trojan horse.

• 1:21:31Speaker 00

  All of my books, I'm a philosopher, I write philosophy books cleverly disguised as business books. But at the end of the day, what I care most about is the human relationship. And so why optimism? It's the core of a successful human relationship. The reason I work hard in this, I talk to my favorite couples, like the romantic couples that I see who I like envy, I want a relationship like theirs, and I have a small list, I know who they are. I ask them, what's your secret? They all say the same thing. It's hard work and we do the work. Why is that the recipe for successful relationship? Because human relationships are hard. And you know, cats are naturally good at being cats. They don't have to study. Unfortunately, being human, no, we're not naturally good at it.

• 1:22:16Speaker 00

  We're actually naturally pretty crappy at it.

• 1:22:17Emma Grede?

  You need to work at it.

• 1:22:18Speaker 00

  Right? Like being a good human and being a good partner and being a good colleague and being a good leader and being a good follower, it all takes work. And the question is, are you willing to do the work? The only reason you're willing to do the work is because it's worth it. It has to feel worth it. And so when you're in a romantic relationship with a person you love and who loves you, why is it worth doing the work? Because this person matters to me? I matter to this person. This person makes me feel seen and heard. I get the honor of making, helping them feel seen and heard. I feel like I matter. I get the honor of making, helping them feel like they matter. I'm growing as a person. I get the honor of helping them grow. I'm gonna keep doing it. And the minute you say it's, it's not worth it anymore, then, then have that conversation. Question the relationship.

• 1:23:03Speaker 00

  Question the job. Question the collegial relationship. Question the friendship. Absolutely, have those conversations. Have that feedback session. We have feedback sessions at work. Why don't we, why don't we have feedback sessions with, with our, with our friends? When our, when our marriages are, are in trouble, when our romantic relationship is in trouble, we get couples therapy. How come we don't get friends therapy? Like, how come we're not working hard to make our relationships work?

• 1:23:26Emma Grede?

  This is your new pursuit around friendship?

• 1:23:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:23:29Emma Grede?

  Much needed.

• 1:23:30Speaker 00

  But it's all comes down to human relationship. I have a clear vision of where I wanna go. I can see the things standing in the way. And I'm in pursuit of something noble and, and, and, and good for all people. Not for some people, but for all people. For as many people as want it. That's why I said vast majority. I'm not so foolhardy that I can think I can help everyone. Right?

• 1:23:50Emma Grede?

  Thank you, Simon. I've loved speaking to you and you ended just on the perfect note. Okay, so a couple of rapid fire questions for you, Simon. An easy one. What's the first thing you do when you wake up?

• 1:24:01Speaker 00

  I do the crossword puzzle.

• 1:24:03Emma Grede?

  That's so old school and lovely. In a newspaper or on an iPad?

• 1:24:07Speaker 00

  On my phone.

• 1:24:07Emma Grede?

  On your phone?

• 1:24:08Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:24:09Emma Grede?

  Okay. What's the last thing you do before you go to bed at night?

• 1:24:12Speaker 00

  The crossword puzzle.

• 1:24:14Emma Grede?

  Really?

• 1:24:15Speaker 00

  If it's a Friday, yeah. If it's a Monday, I'm done in 10 minutes on a, you know, I'm done in 10 minutes in the morning. But I, my, it's, I don't really meditate in the traditional way, but I like making my brain think a little bit at the beginning and the end of the day.

• 1:24:29Emma Grede?

  A little puzzling.

• 1:24:30Speaker 00

  And I'm not on text and I'm, I don't care what, what's happening in the world. It's just a way for me to just disconnect and focus and it's, it's, it's.

• 1:24:38Emma Grede?

  It's your meditation.

• 1:24:39Speaker 00

  It's a source of meditation almost every day.

• 1:24:42Emma Grede?

  You find it hard to meditate?

• 1:24:43Speaker 00

  No, I like meditation.

• 1:24:45Emma Grede?

  You like meditation?

• 1:24:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:24:46Emma Grede?

  Okay, just checking. What's a book that changed your life? Start with why?

• 1:24:50Speaker 00

  I mean, I mean.

• 1:24:52Emma Grede?

  That was a pretty good one for you.

• 1:24:53Speaker 00

  I mean, yeah, I haven't read a full book that changed my life, but there are pieces of books that have changed my life. Man's Search for Meaning, obviously, and A Finite and Infinite Games by, by Jim Carrey, who put me on the path to write my book, The Infinite Game. I was so inspired by his, his, his truth that I wanted to build on it. It's a funny question, like what book changed my life? Yeah, the writing of Start With Why definitely changed my life.

• 1:25:15Emma Grede?

  A hundred percent.

• 1:25:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:25:16Emma Grede?

  Uh, that, that's a perfectly good answer.

• 1:25:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's funny.

• 1:25:19Emma Grede?

  What are you currently aspiring to in your life?

• 1:25:24Speaker 00

  Professionally, I want to really, there's multiple things. You know, I'm looking for all the ways to bring the vision to life in new ways. And, and the businesses that I'm building are my way of asking for help, right? So I'm building this, this training company called Why School, where we're teaching personal coaches, executive coaches, learning and development people in companies to help individuals find their why. I'm asking for help to get as many people to help learn their why as possible because I can't do it alone. So if I build a company that gives that exact way I do it to other people, holy cow, right? The app that we're building right now is my way of saying like, I have this vision of the world as it, as it could be. But I can't do the work. I need you to be the leaders in the companies. I need you to,

• 1:26:08Speaker 00

  I need you guys to, to help me. I need to build an army. I'll teach you some skills. I'll give you some guidance. And so all of our, our whole learning platform on our website is designed to give people those human skills so that they can join me to change the world into one that could be. I, I need more, I need people to go change their companies. I can't do it for them. I need people in the race with me. Right? So I'm, I'm trying to train people to, to practice running and get in the race with me. Right? So that's happening. The friendship book that I'm writing is because we underestimate the importance of friends in our lives. And if you want to have a successful romantic relationship and you want to have a successful career, you better have some good friends who love you and care about you. And the thing is, is there's so much written about leadership.

• 1:26:52Speaker 00

  There's an entire industry about leadership. There's an entire industry about romance and finding partners. And yet there is so little about how to be a friend. And so I'm trying to start that industry. I want lots of books about friendship. I want lots of apps and lots of companies about friendship.

• 1:27:06Emma Grede?

  You are so right. How have I never read a book about friends?

• 1:27:09Speaker 00

  Because there's, there's barely anything on the topic. And if you ask people, are you a good friend? Most people say yes. And if you peel the onion, just one layer, most of us are pretty shitty friends. Where most of us, like, like, would you cancel on a friend for a meeting? Would you cancel on a meeting for a friend? Oh, but my friend would understand. Okay. So do you, do you get a divorce after one bad fight with your spouse? No, of course not. You worked through it. Would you end a friendship after one bad fight? Ugh, I've done that. Whoops. You know? And for some reason, we have a lower standard for our friends. And yet, if you want to have a successful career and you want to have a successful romantic relationship, those things come and go. Your friends are the only stable thing through all of it. You better look after your friends and learn

• 1:27:50Speaker 00

  how to be a good friend and learn how to serve your friends by giving them the honor to serve you.

• 1:27:56Emma Grede?

  I'll be waiting for this next book.

• 1:27:57Speaker 00

  So all of my work, our company, our training program, all of it, all of it, is me asking people, inviting people to join me in common cause as we learn to build this world that feels inspired, safe and fulfilled.

• 1:28:11Emma Grede?

  It's amazing. All right. I have one last question for you. What is something that you valued when you were starting out that you no longer value?

• 1:28:21Speaker 00

  I don't need to be right anymore.

• 1:28:28Speaker 00

  I don't need to be the one who is right.

• 1:28:32Speaker 00

  I'm okay if somebody else's is right and they have a better solution, better answer. I'll do, I'll do what they said. I don't need to be a hero. I don't need to be right. I don't need to be in charge. I don't need any of those things. As long as we have momentum and the work's getting done, I'll lead, I'll follow. I don't care. I'll follow your idea, follow my idea. I don't care. As long as it moves us in the common direction, I'm in.

• 1:28:57Emma Grede?

  Fantastic. Thank you so much, Simon.

• 1:28:59Speaker 00

  Thanks for having me.

• 1:29:00Emma Grede?

  What a pleasure.

• 1:29:07Emma Grede?

  If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. We'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Grede is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Grede. Our executive producers are Corinne Gilliard Fisher, Derek Brown and me. Our executive producers from Odyssey are Maddie Sprung Kaiser, Leah Reese Dennis, Asha Saluja, Lauren Legrosso and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Evan Cox, Kirk Courtney, Andrew Steele, Carlos Delgado and Arnie Agassi. Social media by Olivia Homan.

• 1:29:53Emma Grede?

  Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sidney Ford, my teams at The Lead Company and WME. Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Hillary Schaff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson Rose, Tim Meekle, Sean Cherry and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at aspirewithemmagreed. Grede is spelt G R E D E. That's aspire, A S P I R E with Emma Grede. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emmagreed.me.