Rebecca Lemov (on brainwashing)

Rebecca Lemov (The Instability of Truth: Brainwashing, Mind Control, and Hyper-Persuasion) is a historian of science, author, and professor at Harvard. Rebecca joins the Armchair Expert to discuss the meet cute with her husband at the cafe where she was struggling to write her dissertation, how she fell under a romantic spell with anthropology as well as opioids, and the relationship between addiction and brainwashing. Rebecca and Dax talk about how Patty Hearst used brainwashing as a defense for her actions, why it's such an effective mind control tactic to strip someone of their name, and how Korean War soldiers’ health and wellness bounce back after trauma hid evidence of their suffering. Rebecca explains the normalization of brutal torture training of troops, that cult leaders intuitively act out a guidebook of hierarchical dynamics of desire and power, and Facebook’s experiment on emotional contagion as an example of soft brainwashing. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ http://www.wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dax Shepard?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Rather and I'm joined by Leslie Stahl.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  And we're all brainwashed.

• 0:09Dax Shepard?

  And we've been brainwashed. Our guest today is Rebecca Lemov. She's a historian of science at Harvard University and her research explores data.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 0:21Dax Shepard?

  Trying to change my, the way I say data.

• 0:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz now.

• 0:25Dax Shepard?

  It's wrong.

• 0:26Speaker 01

  Are you sure?

• 0:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, every scientist we have says data cuz it's D A T A. If it was data, it'd be two Ts or even D A D D A.

• 0:35Speaker 01

  Data.

• 0:37Dax Shepard?

  Data. Uh, okay. Explors data, technology and the history of human and behavioral sciences. She's written a bunch about a database of dreams, how reason.

• 0:49Speaker 01

  You did it wrong.

• 0:51Dax Shepard?

  What part did I do wrong?

• 0:51Speaker 01

  Database.

• 0:53Dax Shepard?

  Oh, database?

• 0:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, see?

• 0:55Dax Shepard?

  Doesn't sound right. Database of dreams, how reason almost lost its mind, world as laboratory. Her new book, that's what we're here to talk about. It's very tasty. The instability of truth, brainwashing, mind control and hyper persuasion.

• 1:11Speaker 01

  This is wild. It's scary and it's good.

• 1:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's very, very scary and very good. And I'd love the history of where all this stuff was kind of discovered and workshopped.

• 1:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's not, no one's, I mean, obviously some people stumbled in, but it's calc, a lot of this is very calculated.

• 1:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they learned how to do this at a certain point.

• 1:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, as you'll hear.

• 1:33Dax Shepard?

  So please enjoy Rebecca Lemov. We get support from Quince.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  Okay, can we talk about the fact that the holidays are already here? It's crazy. I feel like I blinked and now we're in gifting season, which I'm not really mad about because I do love giving gifts. And Quince is making it so easy to find something great for everyone on my list, including myself. Cuz let's be honest, self gifting is a love language.

• 1:59Dax Shepard?

  Quince is seriously the gift that keeps on giving. Their high quality staples are made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14 karat gold in a.

• 2:10Dax Shepard?

  Italian leather, full on luxury quality at prices that won't wreck your holiday budget.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  It's the dream. The cashmere sweater starting at $60, down jackets, wool outerwear, cashmere accessories. You and everyone on your list are staying cozy and looking incredible all season long.

• 2:26Dax Shepard?

  Well, I'm gonna tell you this, it just got chilly for the first time this year in California and I'm so excited and I'm wearing my Quince cashmere right now.

• 2:33Speaker 01

  It's great.

• 2:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and I am going to gift this to some of my friends. I hope they're not listening.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  Quince is also more than clothing. They've got fine jewelry for your significant other, leather bags for your bestie, hotel quality bedding to set up your guest rooms, chef grade cookware. That's an amazing thing they offer here and it's such a good gift because people don't like buying cookware for themselves, but it's very important. And they also have five star luggage, another good gift that people don't like buying for themselves.

• 3:01Dax Shepard?

  Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. We get support from Gusto. So here's the thing about running a small business that nobody romanticizes. It's not the big idea that wears you down, it's the payroll, the tax filings, the wait, do I need workers comp for this stuff? That's the part that quietly eats away your whole afternoon, which is where Gusto comes in. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses.

• 3:46Dax Shepard?

  It's all in one, remote friendly and incredibly easy to use so you can pay onboard and support your team from anywhere. They handle automatic tax filing, direct deposits, health benefits, 401k, all of it. And you get unlimited payroll runs for one monthly price. No hidden fees, no surprises. If something tricky comes up, you've got direct access to certified HR experts who actually know what they're talking about. And they're ranked number one on G2's highest satisfaction products list for 2026 and trusted by over 500,000 small businesses. That's not nothing. Try Gusto today at gusto.com/dax and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll at gusto.com/dax. Again, that's gusto.com/dax.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  We had a guest this morning and Dax is wearing that shirt, but it was inside out on accident.

• 4:58Dax Shepard?

  Which Monica pointed out to me once we left.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  Well, I didn't notice it till it was way too far in any way.

• 5:04Dax Shepard?

  Really past the point of return.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  What was really funny is I kept looking at your shirt. One, I was like, I've never seen it. It's new.

• 5:10Dax Shepard?

  Great, novel.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  And two, I have a shirt very similar. So I was like, oh, it looks like my Elizabethan shirt. I think he's stretching it out.

• 5:19Speaker 02

  Took a while.

• 5:20Dax Shepard?

  She didn't recognize it.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:22Dax Shepard?

  You're back in California.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:24Dax Shepard?

  How often do you come?

• 5:25Speaker 02

  Pretty often. Partly my husband's family lives here.

• 5:28Dax Shepard?

  Did you guys meet in college?

• 5:29Speaker 02

  We met afterwards, but in Oakland. I was struggling to write my dissertation and he was working at the cafe where I was struggling.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  Me cute.

• 5:37Speaker 02

  It really was. There was a mixtape involved.

• 5:39Dax Shepard?

  Yes, and he was heavily tipped during the dot com bubble, but then it collapsed and then the tips dried up.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  Very true. It was a version of Cheers, but with coffee, where people would just come to gather around and chat with him.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  Fine.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  Because he had that kind of air about him, but I was so involved in trying to write that I would sneak by and hide behind the jukebox.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  You were playing hard to get.

• 5:59Dax Shepard?

  You just had to wait for him to approach you.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  It was unlikely we would ever meet, actually.

• 6:03Dax Shepard?

  How did you?

• 6:04Speaker 02

  I think I made a comment that I liked the music he was playing.

• 6:07Dax Shepard?

  On the jukebox?

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Maybe it was through the jukebox. Yeah, Desmond Decker. And then he offered to make me a mixtape.

• 6:13Dax Shepard?

  Whoa, hold on, that's a huge first swing.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Or a tape of this.

• 6:16Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 6:17Speaker 02

  But it was a handmade tape and then inside he wrote his number, but then he erased it and hoped that I would call him, although it was non-existent.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Oh, that you'd have to look.

• 6:26Dax Shepard?

  Or take charcoal and tissue paper.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  He's playing a game here.

• 6:30Speaker 02

  Various detective methods, but instead somehow we ended up meeting. He was going to give me a photography lesson.

• 6:36Dax Shepard?

  Another great hack. Mixtape photographer. If he does use like great at foot massage, you're like, okay.

• 6:42Speaker 02

  That's actually true.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  That's lovely.

• 6:47Speaker 02

  I hadn't really thought about how cliche written that story is, but yes.

• 6:51Dax Shepard?

  But that's the nature of love. It is all cliche. And then it feels very special and unique to you, and that's what's so sweet.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's really true.

• 6:57Dax Shepard?

  So that means you guys have been together for twenty-five years?

• 7:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:00Dax Shepard?

  So embarrassingly, you were graduating from graduate school in the same year I graduated from undergrad, but I imagine I'm older than you, so I think you must have boogied.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  Maybe not.

• 7:10Dax Shepard?

  I was born in seventy-five.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  I was born in sixty-six.

• 7:13Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God, you look incredible.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you.

• 7:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  You do look great.

• 7:16Dax Shepard?

  I don't know if you're supposed to comment on professors' looks, but I guess you're human.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  I don't either, but I always like a compliment.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  I accept a compliment under any conditions.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  There you go, yeah.

• 7:23Dax Shepard?

  Where are you from originally?

• 7:24Speaker 02

  I was born in New York City, but grew up in Washington DC or the outskirts.

• 7:29Dax Shepard?

  Okay, and then now you're in Boston. So you've really done the tri-state.

• 7:32Speaker 02

  And we lived in Seattle. My daughter was born in Seattle. That's where I started teaching. That's where I actually taught my first class on brainwashing.

• 7:39Dax Shepard?

  And then why Berkeley? Did you fancy yourself an antisocial misfit? Or just they had the best program?

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Well, after I graduated from college at Yale, everyone I knew seemed to be heading across the country. I saw people I knew on I-80.

• 7:53Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you did? Other graduates?

• 7:55Speaker 02

  Like midway through the country, others fleeing the East Coast. But when I tell students today, I make a joke about going to California to find myself, they don't know what I'm talking about.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 8:04Dax Shepard?

  Like that reference doesn't mean anything?

• 8:05Speaker 02

  It doesn't mean anything.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Oh, no. That's probably sad for us.

• 8:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's why our population's declining and everyone else's is on the rise.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  Maybe you go to California to take a job in tech.

• 8:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, not to go surfing and drop acid and get countercultural.

• 8:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I was already living there, and then I applied to several graduate schools. Well, I got interested in anthropology.

• 8:25Dax Shepard?

  How could you not?

• 8:26Speaker 02

  I thought, why not just think of the most interesting thing you could study and the most interesting questions you could ask? Surely it's anthropology. I originally went to study ethnobotany, which I thought of in a kind of Carlos Castaneda way.

• 8:38Dax Shepard?

  Meaning expand your mind kind of way?

• 8:40Speaker 02

  But then ethnobotany, it turns out, the way they were studying at UC Berkeley was highly technical, and it involved cognitive networks and taxonomies.

• 8:48Dax Shepard?

  What's your story of why you were so drawn to brainwashing?

• 8:51Speaker 02

  Well, it did happen during graduate school, so I finally ended Started up studying something like the history of the social sciences because I got interested in questions about why people do the things they do or how free are we really, or to what extent people can be controlled. And that's kind of a cultural question. One of the reasons I got drawn to brainwashing is that we became enamored of this kind of French post-structural theory. And not that there's anything necessarily wrong with these writers, but just the way it was treated was a bit cultish. People weaving the books around and trying to find this ultimate meaning. And I found it transformed the way I was writing. And I became very proud of writing highly complicated things, just at the very edge of being understood.

• 9:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Probably more often not understood.

• 9:33Speaker 02

  And then I would be kind of proud. Oh, that must mean it's very smart.

• 9:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm not even sure if I get it.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  Exactly. The thing you're not supposed to say. I proudly showed this to a friend who was a journalist. And he said, this doesn't sound like you. And I just remember that moment later, I thought, was there an element of something like brainwashing, even though it's very mild?

• 9:51Dax Shepard?

  Or you fell under a romantic spell.

• 9:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was kind of a spell.

• 9:54Dax Shepard?

  I think that's the journey of finding your identity in some way is you fall under the spell of these different things. And then they stick or they don't.

• 10:01Speaker 02

  Filed under youthful enthusiasm or just enthusiasm, which is kind of a good thing. And then the other part of it was I also fell into a kind of bad spell, addiction and an abusive relationship.

• 10:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  Wow, you guys share anthropology and addiction. That's a lot of crossover.

• 10:18Dax Shepard?

  We would have had so much fun.

• 10:20Speaker 02

  Indeed.

• 10:21Dax Shepard?

  If you know what I mean, asking, what was your flavor of addiction?

• 10:23Speaker 02

  It was hard drugs, opioids. So I kind of fell into this because I found myself in just a impossible emotional situation. And a friend had shown me how to use this. I felt that it alleviated my emotional burden. It was such a relief. And I thought, this is just a great invention.

• 10:39Dax Shepard?

  Especially opiates, they have the illusion of manageability because you can function. It's not like you're inebriated drunk and you can't do anything.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  And then I found someone who was a link to that or could purvey these things. So I fell into a relationship with him. And that compounded the whole situation. You know, it started off just weekends and kind of seemed manageable. I wouldn't have used the word functional, but I probably thought that I was functional. But after a couple of years. I lost friends and I lost touch with a lot of my family and has found myself very isolated.

• 11:10Dax Shepard?

  So a good two years of that opioid hole.

• 11:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:13Dax Shepard?

  How were you able to quit?

• 11:15Speaker 02

  I feel daily fortunate that I was able to because it just becomes so much a reality that you don't think you're gonna be able to get out or you don't even think you deserve to.

• 11:24Dax Shepard?

  It's its own brainwashing, right? It alters your brain in a very significant way and you can actually not even see any longer.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  I remember a moment where I thought, could I go out today? Do I actually deserve to see this on?

• 11:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  The deserving piece is so heartbreaking.

• 11:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I had one friend I continued to see who's really wonderful and we went out for coffee and she said something like, I just wanted to observe that your boyfriend walks around like he's smarter than you, better looking and funnier, but he's not any of those things and he acts like he has his foot on your neck all the time and that was very shocking to me.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  Did you feel like that in the relationship, like this person's so much better than me?

• 12:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I felt he was very accomplished and also I was kind of scared of him.

• 12:05Dax Shepard?

  Did he feel familiar?

• 12:07Speaker 02

  Probably.

• 12:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, or he felt aspirational and also kind of scary. I felt like he could tell me truths about myself that I had always needed to know. I mean, there are ways that these dark relationships have a cult-like element to them. And when I went to travel, the spell would break. This also happened.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  And it would just be like it lifted.

• 12:25Dax Shepard?

  It's so cult-like, these really, really controlling relationships and even the strategies of separating you from your friends and all your support network. And then, yeah, I was even thinking, did you watch Couples Therapy by chance?

• 12:35Speaker 02

  I've watched a bit of it and I really like it.

• 12:37Dax Shepard?

  It's incredible. And then this one woman, and I won't use names because I don't want to get sued, but one woman is with a bona fide narcissist. And when she's explaining what they're going through to Orna, you can see that Orna's presence anchors her back into reality in a way that she's hearing what she's saying almost with an entirely new lens and realizing, oh yeah, this motherfucker's crazy.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can remove yourself from being inside of it for a second when there's someone there who's just a third party. I mean, that's why therapy is so effective.

• 13:09Dax Shepard?

  You have to consider how this person's hearing the story.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, just being there to either witness it or give. Have you some sort of feedback can be this miraculous thing?

• 13:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Well, first of all, you're a professor of the history of science, which again, that's a discipline made up by Harvard. Yeah.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  Exactly. It first existed at Harvard.

• 13:26Dax Shepard?

  I wasn't even aware that that was a discipline. But as I read the description, I'm like, oh, I love that. I think I'd be very interested in that.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  I think anyone who studies or is interested in the kind of questions anthropology asks would like history of science too, because it kind of asks similar questions and it's infinitely interesting.

• 13:41Dax Shepard?

  And am I right that a lot of the question is like, how do we know what we know? And how do we trust what we know in a sense? Is that a common exploration in that?

• 13:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. Also, how does science gain its authority? What is the nature of scientific truth? I mean, it really asks big questions. And then, of course, as with any field, people get very specialized. But it's all kinds of interesting sub questions because we have history of medicine. And I do history of behavioral sciences, which is more unusual.

• 14:07Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so let's start with, well, before we start that, I do want to ask, two hours a day of meditation?

• 14:12Speaker 02

  Well, at least two hours.

• 14:13Dax Shepard?

  At least two hours.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  Were you meditating when we came in?

• 14:16Speaker 02

  I was.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  I know. I felt kind of.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  It's just like a little moment.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  That's great.

• 14:21Dax Shepard?

  I do that before I have to go on stage or anything like that.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  I know. I was thinking, I can review my notes. A little part of you wants to be like, what is in my book?

• 14:29Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  It's much better time use to just observe your sensations. So a great gift that came after this whole dark episode was learning to meditate and just having that practice. And I have kept it up two hours a day. I've never missed a day since 2000.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  Except the three days my daughter was being born.

• 14:46Dax Shepard?

  The three days.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  That's fair.

• 14:47Speaker 02

  2002. Yeah, like I was busy laboring.

• 14:51Dax Shepard?

  Will you do an hour in the morning, an hour in the evening generally?

• 14:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do the same kind that Yuval Noah Harari does, just because I saw that he was on your show.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. We just love him.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  Knowing what it was like not having that practice, I just never don't want to. And I get to choose to do it.

• 15:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And your family knows not to?

• 15:06Speaker 02

  Well, when my daughter was little, I mean, I adapted to my life circumstances. So for 10 years, I would hold her hand while she was falling asleep and I'd be meditating or holding her when she was a baby. But that would be the nighttime one, just to be flexible about it. Because life doesn't always give you an hour.

• 15:21Dax Shepard?

  When brainwashing has been studied in the past, I guess you kind of like. Two methodologies, the analyst and the actor. Can you break that down for us?

• 15:32Speaker 02

  These are methods from the history of science that I borrowed to apply to brainwashing. So with a topic that's as complex as brainwashing, you do have many definitions and philosophical questions and many directions you could go. You can use the actor's category, which really means just look at how people were using the word, how your actors were using it. And if your actors are scientific figures, then also look at how they're using it, even though they're also using it to analyze. So it's kind of a combination.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  Can we get an example?

• 15:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, so one of the main figures in my book is this psychiatrist named Louis Jolyon West, whose papers I've been visiting for 16 years now. So I feel like I kind of know him. He was one of the most prominent brainwashing experts. And he said many different things about brainwashing. One pivotal moment is he was called to the stand at the Patty Hearst trial, which was framed as a brainwashing trial.

• 16:20Dax Shepard?

  That was the defense, right? For Stockholm Center, is that the first time we heard that?

• 16:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, she never embraced that term and the legal team never used it. But people have applied that. Brainwashing was a term that her lawyer did try to use in her defense. And they brought forward the most prominent experts in the world to make the case that she had not been responsible for her actions.

• 16:40Dax Shepard?

  And for people that don't know, she was kidnapped. She lived with this far-left wing terrorist group for a while. They end up robbing a bank and she participated in the robbery.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  It's also relevant that she was kidnapped from her apartment and held in a closet for about 70 days.

• 16:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 16:54Speaker 02

  And blindfolded and subjected to the reading of Maoist tracts and raped and horrors beyond what you could imagine.

• 17:00Dax Shepard?

  Ungrounded, as you would say.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  She was ungrounded. So these experts from the Korean War, who had been military experts, were called to examine her and they saw parallels to what had happened. But anyway, so the moment when Louis Jolyon West takes the stand, the prosecutor asks him, what do you mean by brainwashing? And he says, well, actually, it's not a very scientific term. But what I really mean is, and he kind of starts to ramble on a little bit and say it's coercive persuasion, but the judge cuts him off and says, could you get to the point, Dr. West? At that moment, it seems like the case that Patty Hearst was trying to advance. Was last minutes into his testimony because he was saying it doesn't have medical or scientific authority, but just methodologically looking at that moment and seeing how

• 17:44Speaker 02

  the term appeared in public and it was rejected by the public as something that made sense. So it allows me to follow these threads through the book and it gave me some organizing principles.

• 17:55Dax Shepard?

  But the actor analyst would be, if I'm getting this right, anyone that's studying something else, they might be confident in just their observations without ever really asking what the personal experience and point of view of the person being studied is and incorporating that aspect.

• 18:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a good way to put it, too. So many people are tempted to stick to an analyst point of view or look at how to analyze a phenomenon that's very complicated, but it's almost giving credence to the actors themselves and how they interacted even with ideas.

• 18:26Dax Shepard?

  Even the Jonathan Haidt moral dumbfounding things, they're going to be as provocative as possible. When you learn cultural relativism and anthropology, the one that they're going to hit you with every time is infanticide among Inuits, right, that they had some practice of killing firstborn daughters. And so if you were to only just observe this practice and make a conclusion, you would never have learned from the actor, well, a boy has to hunt for us to feed us as we get old. So first we have to have that. When that's secured, we can now afford, like you would never have learned even what the rationale behind it all was. I think it's a very generous and respectful thing to assume the person you're studying has a total rhyme and reason for what they're doing, that they're not doing something completely void of any logic.

• 19:11Speaker 02

  Exactly. And that's interesting in itself.

• 19:13Dax Shepard?

  So this one will be even harder to explain, but you say the other superpower is second order observer.

• 19:18Speaker 02

  I borrowed it from this sociologist named Nicholas Luman, but what I mean by it is the idea of observing your observers. So after you've gone in and tried to see from the point of view of people involved, even if they're experts, they're also your actors, then you pull back and try to observe the system itself.

• 19:34Dax Shepard?

  Is this a good example? I always think of the Stanford Prison Experiment. Initially, they think they're studying the students who have gotten too much authority and abuse it quickly and abuse these. People, but then if you pull back further, you have to acknowledge that the constructor of the actual experiment is himself.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  Philip Zimbardo.

• 19:53Dax Shepard?

  Nice.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 19:55Dax Shepard?

  This has been.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  It's been a lot of us trying to remember.

• 19:58Dax Shepard?

  We're getting it wrong most often, and then finally it's cemented.

• 20:01Speaker 02

  Actually, I think there might be more than a second order observer, but you can keep pulling back the frame, as you're saying.

• 20:06Dax Shepard?

  That he himself, Zimbardo, was a victim of the exact same behavior he was observing and trying to understand because he himself had elevated his authority and detachment from everything.

• 20:16Speaker 02

  This makes my husband very upset, actually, because he feels that Zimbardo should not have taken credit for this brilliant experiment and profited off it when he basically became part of the experiment. But he does say that.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  He acknowledges it.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  He acknowledges it, yeah.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  Then everyone becomes part of it. If you are the analyst, you also are entering in. And then where do you break off? Or we're all just a part of everything?

• 20:38Dax Shepard?

  It's also a law of physics, which is if you observe light, depending on how you observe it, it's either a particle or it's a.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  Wave.

• 20:47Dax Shepard?

  A wave, thank you. And that can change depending on the observation of it. So certainly, brainwashing has existed probably since humans have been humans. But we get kind of aware of it from the Korean War. Is that where we start really trying to study it, understand it?

• 21:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's when it actually has a moment when it enters the English language. Edward Hunter, who was an operative and journalist who worked for the OSS in China in the 1930s, started collecting a lot of examples of propaganda and observing what he thought was this new weapon that communists had as they rose to power.

• 21:21Dax Shepard?

  At that time, would we not say it would be propaganda?

• 21:24Speaker 02

  Exactly. There is a distinction. He had that background as an expert in propaganda, but he starts to talk about brainwashing right before the Korean War. Around the time that this famous incident was that Cardinal Min Zenti, who was a Polish high level priest and religious hero and just national treasure. He was arrested in 1948. He disappeared for 28 days and nobody knew what happened to him, but he was taken by the secret police of Hungary. And then he came back and he looked like a shadow of himself, like a gray puppet. And he was paraded before the newsreel. Cameras and he confessed to these outrageous crimes that he couldn't even have possibly committed. Like he had stolen religious artifacts and he said he had taken money from the church. And even though he'd left a note, he said, if I'm arrested, don't believe anything I say. Oh my god.

• 22:07Speaker 02

  When I come back, yet this still happened to him. And it was almost like he was a trophy for these new communist governments. Like an announcement that we can do this. And he did return to himself within a couple of years. And he said, without knowing what had happened to me, I had become another person.

• 22:24Dax Shepard?

  And you say, yeah, becoming someone else was alarming enough. But the nightmarish part was that you had no ability to recognize that this had happened. So even scarier than becoming different is you wouldn't have even noticed it.

• 22:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, that first part without knowing. So within 28 days, fairly fast. And then he also revealed what had happened to him, although I didn't have full memory of it.

• 22:44Dax Shepard?

  And if you think of your stereotype of someone susceptible to this type of thing, it's not a leader in the church who's got charisma and all these people skills and a great education and all these other tropes we think would inoculate you from this.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  A hero to his people and he knew what was coming. He knew that there was a possible threat to himself. So he could have been prepared or he probably did try to prepare himself. But one interesting thing about it, he said, he thinks he was drugged and he was pushed around. He was not a young man and he was sleep deprived. But one of the things that struck me was that he recalled that he was stripped of his clerical robes and he was made to wear a clown costume. And he kind of had to crawl. And so there were these status-based humiliations.

• 23:26Dax Shepard?

  Also a quite literal stripping of someone's identity.

• 23:28Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah, well, it's often the case that removal even of someone's name is very effective. Like in the Stanford prison experiments, one of the first things they do is the guards only refer to the prisoners as numbers. It's very effective.

• 23:40Dax Shepard?

  How much were people doing brainwashing things that they didn't even know they were doing? So like a longstanding tradition is to shave all of the cadets' heads. That's part of it. You're actually stealing their identity from them. How calculated was it or some of these things just naturally happened?

• 23:55Speaker 02

  I think it's often not calculated, which is kind of surprising. Because it follows a seemingly ironclad series of steps. But people seem to invent it spontaneously in some cases. Like in the case of Patty Hearst, we were just talking about the guy who was in charge of her abduction and re-education. He kept asking her, you're not brainwashed, are you? Because he wanted to believe that she was truly converted to his cause, that it wasn't that she had been, you know, not allowed to go to the bathroom and she had been raped. For him, it had to be real. He was also, I guess, in it.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  And you can see that with Cardinal Mencetti. I mean, there was a Soviet method that was borrowed by the Hungarian police. And there's a long history of what they say in pulp fiction, getting medieval on your, like, there are ways to unmake someone. That seemed to be part of the human repertoire. But what was different, maybe in the middle of the 20th century, is that psychiatrists and sociologists and experts would choreograph it sometimes. And then in the US, they actually responded to this crisis by

• 24:54Dax Shepard?

  Outdevelop their opponent.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, weaponize it.

• 24:56Dax Shepard?

  So I guess I didn't know a lot of this, which is shameful, but you do a great job of painting a picture of what the Korean War was, which was initially, it was called a police action. These young kids went, one of the main characters in your book is a 17 year old boy who's in 11th grade. And he signs up before his senior year and he goes over there thinking he's a part of a police mission. They arrive, they are using all the equipment from World War II. They don't have any new guns, new tanks, new anything. Things are breaking, helicopters are falling apart. The enemy has all new Russian stuff because they're backed by Russia by proxy of China. So they're getting slaughtered and outgunned and their full sense of what an American is at that point is starting to really fracture.

• 25:39Dax Shepard?

  Like, we're supposed to be indomitable. We're supposed to have the highest tech, everything. And all these young guys end up as prisoners of war. Tell us about the Tiger March. That was particularly grueling.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  Almost the definition of brutal. So the Tiger Death March, thousands of US soldiers, when they were captured, they were marched north and stayed overnight in these kind of series of impromptu camps, sometimes in old mines and sometimes in ramshackle buildings. It was under the oversight of a commander nicknamed Tiger. And sometimes when they walked along these mountain roads, he would just push soldiers off.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 26:14Dax Shepard?

  They're all completely malnourished. They have zero energy. They're already physically quite diminished. They don't have the right gear. It's freezing.

• 26:21Speaker 02

  And they were joined by some civilians on this march because there were monks and nuns and missionaries who were being captured in Korea, who had been serving in churches, seen as enemies. So they were being marched too. So during this march, soldiers, even though they were emaciated, sometimes they'd lost half their body weight. They would try to help one of their compatriots or a civilian. There was a nun named Mother Beatrix, I think, and she was in her 80s and she was struggling, of course. And the North Korean soldier said, just leave her. We'll take her in the cart. And then they heard gunshots and never saw her again. Other times, soldiers would just drop dead along the road because they couldn't take another step. So it was one of the most grueling and demoralizing. A missionary who had passed by them on a train

• 27:04Speaker 02

  said he couldn't recognize them as American soldiers.

• 27:07Dax Shepard?

  And when they made it after these long marches and they got in these camps, then the camps were often even more brutal. They would have thought, once the walking was done. Long story short, it's all really, really heartbreaking and worth learning about. But at the end of all this, there are 21 of these guys who go through this process, who choose to stay in China and take on Korean wives, have children. They do get completely converted to some degree. And there's a process by which they do it. And I wonder, we get into now Mao Zedong. He is the leader of China and he has something called the method or re-education or thought reform. And it has a very predictable and formatted approach,

• 27:52Dax Shepard?

  which is discussion, criticism and unity. So take us from these guys who are in these camps. As you would say, ungrounded. I think it's worthwhile to explain what ungrounded is.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  I like to think of it as a series of successive shocks to the point of disorientation or sometimes utter demoralization. So again, your expectations are not met, to say the least. And the soldiers had been told, you'll be home by Thanksgiving. And instead, they're being marched north. They're in the camps. Men would die in the camps initially when the North Koreans were running them, before the Chinese took over. They would die just by falling in the latrine and not having the strength to get out, which was a pit. And then seeing your compatriots die that way, sometimes they were also bombed by the US, sometimes napalmed by their own side. So it was destabilizing of sense of faith in one's own nation. But sometimes they would also just die overnight. They were living with corpses.

• 28:45Speaker 02

  So this prepares the way for a more targeted ideological remolding, which is what happened. And then, interestingly enough, I learned this at a conference a few years ago by the scholar named Amanda Smith, who specializes in Chinese history, that people who know about this consistently underestimate the extent to which the POWs were subjected. It was kind of an experiment that Mao was running. He wanted to see if the method he used on Chinese people would also work on American GIs and officers.

• 29:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, because the method was designed to treat peasants one way and landowners and landlords another way. It was a very rigid prescription. And his conclusion was, well, these infantrymen are the peasants, right? They're not the landowners. The generals are the landowners, so they would receive those two different approaches.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 29:33Dax Shepard?

  But it's really interesting, the discussion part, this kind of re-education or the method would start with urging these people over and over again for a very, very long time to journal their life story. And in some fascinating way, none of these people had experienced therapy prior to this. This wasn't a thing people did. So this is like a very unique experience. And comforting versus what they had just experienced. Because when you're journaling, you get to sit next to a still. So there's these little incentives along the way. And through the telling of your story over and over and over again, you then get into a zone of criticism. And this is where you have to defend your nation's ethics, how they treat black people. That was a big issue they would remind everyone of.

• 30:16Dax Shepard?

  And they're now putting you in a position to have to defend your story or your identity or your sense of reality. And then lastly is unity. And now they're going to explain this other way of thinking that is so much more beneficial and so much more collaborative and helpful.

• 30:33Speaker 02

  One example, this isn't from the Camps themselves, but from a reeducation center that a Western doctor was subjected to. So he was seen as more elite. So I think it was more brutal in a way. He was chained and brutally interrogated. But one thing, as he slept at night, if he moved around, because he was in a small cell with 10 to 12 people, they called it capitalist expansion. He had to justify just sleeping or moving.

• 30:55Dax Shepard?

  Man spreading.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 30:58Dax Shepard?

  This is the earliest version of man spreading.

• 31:02Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

• 31:09Dax Shepard?

  This episode is brought to you by McDonald's. The Quarter Pounder with Cheese with Medium Fries and a Drink is now $8.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  What?

• 31:19Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I need to talk about something that doesn't get enough respect. The Quarter Pounder with Cheese. This is not a casual burger. This is a crafted burger. We're talking 100% fresh beef cooked right when you order it. No artificial flavors, no fillers, no preservatives, just beef doing what beef is supposed to do. And here's a detail I love. There's a cowbell sound in the kitchen. When somebody orders a Quarter Pounder with Cheese, a cowbell goes off and the grill master throws a fresh patty down. That's like having your own entrance music at McDonald's. I want a cowbell for everything in life. The onions are hand topped by someone who just knows the right amount. Two slices of cheese laid out in a star pattern, so every single bite gets cheese. And two pickles side by side, so you're never in a pickle desert.

• 32:03Dax Shepard?

  Every bite is accounted for. Someone engineered this thing with love. I love a Quarter Pounder.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  Me too. That's my order. It's a Quarter Pounder with Cheese. I love it. I didn't know they put so much effort that they did a star formation. I should have known because you can taste it when there's effort.

• 32:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, the love. Don't tell anyone this, but I'll put two of them back.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not surprised.

• 32:27Dax Shepard?

  The Quarter Pounder with Cheese with Fries and a Drink, now $8 for a limited time only. Only at McDonald's. For a limited time only, prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska, and California, and for delivery. Fresh beef not available in Alaska and Hawaii. Offer not valid for delivery. Support from No Bull. The holidays can get hectic. You finally hit a post summer routine and suddenly you're on hosting duty every week.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  That's when you really need to ground yourself.

• 32:56Dax Shepard?

  Exactly. And that's why I keep my training routine through the holidays. It's the whole No Bull idea. There's a no bullshit training brand built around consistency, honesty, and just putting in the work. It's not about adding more pressure to an already packed schedule. It's about having the gear and the habits to move through the season your way. My personal favorite, all three of the shoes are fantastic. The Outwork, the Outwork Flex, and the Drive Two. I like the Drive Two because it's a hybrid. And I lift, of course, but I also like to do what's called box jumps.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 33:27Dax Shepard?

  Right? I do a lot of jumping onto a little platform and I want a little more flexibility. And boy, do they deliver.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  And if you're a cardio person and you're running and you also need to be lifting.

• 33:37Dax Shepard?

  And the style is banging. I don't know what to say. Beautiful style, very breathable, very, very comfortable, lots of support. They were built for lifting.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  They also make a great holiday gift. You know, I love gifting, a purposeful one that actually supports someone's goals and routines. And it's not a gift that just ends up in the back of the closet.

• 33:54Dax Shepard?

  Stay stronger than the season. Head to nobolproject.com all holiday season to shop new deals every week. This episode is supported by Helix.

• 34:05Speaker 01

  Okay, can we talk about how November is basically survival mode between the holidays, the travel, the hosting, the cooking, the everything? Sleep is the one thing keeping me from completely unraveling.

• 34:16Dax Shepard?

  It really is the foundation. And I think people underestimate how much a bad mattress is quietly ruining their day. You wake up stiff, your back's angry, you're already behind before your feet hit the floor.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  That was me before Helix. I took their sleep quiz, which is so fast. It took me like two minutes and they matched me to a mattress that actually fits how I sleep. Not a guess, not a firm or soft coin flip. It's a real match. I have a midnight mattress and I really like it. I was noticing it because I actually had to sleep in one of my other beds.

• 34:44Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Recently.

• 34:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 34:46Speaker 01

  That doesn't have a Helix mattress on it. And I really could tell a big difference in my sleep.

• 34:50Dax Shepard?

  Temperature was all over the map.

• 34:51Speaker 01

  It was a mess. I need a new one.

• 34:53Dax Shepard?

  Look, they've got over Twenty mattress models. So whether you sleep hot, need extra back support, or you've got a partner who moves around all night, there's one built for you. Plus free shipping and a 365 night happy with Helix guarantee. That's a full year to decide.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  Helix has been named the most awarded mattress by Forbes, Wired and more. So it's not just us being enthusiastic. The experts agree.

• 35:14Dax Shepard?

  Right now, Helix is running their Black Friday sale with up to 30% off. Go to helixsleep.com/armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. That's helixsleep.com/armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. Helixsleep.com/armchair. We are supported by Squarespace. So here's something I think about a lot. Most people I talk to on this show, the ones doing really interesting things, they all had a version of their work that existed before anyone else saw it. It was just theirs, notes, ideas, projects they were tinkering with. And then at some point, they made the decision to share it. That's the part that's scary, right? Going from I'm working on something to here's what I made. Rob went through the exact same thing, building our site on Squarespace.

• 35:59Dax Shepard?

  And what made it doable was that he didn't have to become a web developer overnight. He just had to show up with the idea. Squarespace handles the rest. Beautiful templates that actually look like you hired someone, built an SEO so people can find you, email campaigns, scheduling, analytics, all under one roof. No code, no patchwork of random tools. And honestly, the thing I keep coming back to is how low the barrier is. If you've got something you've been building quietly and you're ready for people to see it, Squarespace makes that leap feel a lot less traumatic. Head to Squarespace.com/dax for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code DAX to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

• 36:45Speaker 02

  And they also reinterpret because they would take your own words, your own journal. 91% of the troops, hundreds of US troops, some UN troops, were given these books and they were actually made to answer questions about their family life and their relationship at school.

• 37:00Dax Shepard?

  What's interesting about that, and I think why as we see it come up in modern society. Society in a far more innocuous way. Often, people haven't ever taken the time to try to explain their worldview. Probably, nobody really has taken the time to write out what their worldview is, what the ethics are of the country they are loyal to. So in doing that, it's a very clever way to establish a little anxiety in your own understanding of why and what you do. You know, it's probably the first time you've questioned any of this.

• 37:31Speaker 02

  The guy you were just mentioning, Morris Wills, who's enlisted at seventeen, he said, "We were never taught a word in high school about our system or about communism." He said, "It would have been helpful. We should have been taught just so we would know what we were fighting and also how to defend our own system." But he felt really unequipped.

• 37:50Dax Shepard?

  So now's a good time to also introduce, because there's two waves, right? There's the small wave and the big wave of men starting to return. The first wave is like one hundred and thirty-nine guys. And then, over time, it's thirty-six-hundred or something massive like that. And people are coming back with varying levels of vacancy and being visibly disturbed. Then you have the people who stayed. And now's where we should learn. Our understanding of trauma doesn't exist to the point where the word "trauma" is almost not even a word in the fifties, right? So as they're seeing all this bizarre behavior, everyone stateside is assuming this is brainwashing, not, "Oh, this is a traumatic response to this horrendously traumatic experience."

• 38:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, the trauma was invisible partly because people didn't think the way we do. Of course, today, we complain that we've gone too far the other direction. Perhaps that we see it everywhere at every moment. Like, if your latte order didn't turn out right, then you're traumatized.

• 38:46Dax Shepard?

  PTSD.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  But a friend of mine, who's a psychiatrist, he was trained in the sixties. And he said, "You just didn't expect to see it. You might see one or two cases in your lifetime. But you would also think, if there were one or two cases, these men would have seemed to be qualified." But I did not find them ever described as traumatized. And I think there are a number of political and social reasons why. Although, there's one mentioned by Robert J. Lifton. Not diagnosing them as traumatized, but just mentioning their experience was traumatic. But other than that, in the hundreds of pages, there's no mention of this. And I think it's partly one thing I call the volleyball problem, which is that even though the men had been starved to the point of nutritional deficiency and often death, by the time the Chinese took over the camps, which is sometimes a year later,

• 39:30Speaker 02

  they were eating better and they were able to gain back weight. And the Chinese ran this POW Olympics, which they kind of used as a PR opportunity. And they showed pictures of the men in uniforms.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  Having fun.

• 39:42Speaker 02

  Having fun, doing gymnastics, rope pulling.

• 39:45Dax Shepard?

  Volleyball.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that's why I call it the volleyball problem because it looks like it's okay. It was also just propaganda for the international courts. I think this is one of the profound parts of it is because it didn't have marks. Their suffering didn't show. The men themselves despaired that anyone would ever understand.

• 40:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, maybe the amputees that came back, which there were, they would have maybe been like, oh, they went through some shit, but the rest of the guys played volleyball.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  You would have just been like, that's war, not this psychological element. You can't see that.

• 40:14Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  But after a time, the Korean War, it means known as the forgotten war, but it became synonymous with these brainwashed men. They were seen as either cowards or freaks.

• 40:21Dax Shepard?

  Weak, that they had succumbed to this propaganda easily. And also, it's worth pointing out that in the entire Korean War, there was only a single psychologist on the ground at the time. And then when they returned, though, now dozens of psychiatrists and psychologists are deployed to now study these guys. And so what do they find? Because now this sets us in motion on our own program.

• 40:42Speaker 02

  It does. It very much has waves of effects. The only time they compare them with veterans of other wars or POWs from other wars is initially. They think that maybe it's something like what happened in World War II, which was a condition called rice brain, which involved men drinking too much and unable to control their behavior. We'd probably call it PTSD today. They were said never to recover. There was one article that initially, right after the men came back, compared them to that. But subsequently was more framed as something unique and knew that was happening. And it fell into this narrative that the communists had a weapon that had never before had been seen in history. And the level of collaboration or indoctrination among American troops was said to be a

• 41:24Speaker 02

  Emergency and the different experts found different things, used different methods. Sometimes they gave them the war shock test. They gave them some sort of psychoanalysis sometimes, but mostly not for healing, but more to try to understand what had happened to them and whether this could be distilled into a method that could either be protected against.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Or learned and used.

• 41:44Speaker 02

  Perhaps used.

• 41:45Dax Shepard?

  Defended against or deployed on your enemies. Yes, sir comes out of this survival evasion resistance escape.

• 41:52Speaker 02

  Exactly. So there were survival schools already used to prepare troops for deployment. They would be sent off to the wilderness and had to survive for three days with limited amount of equipment, but they added a resistance component. So it was called SEER, Survival Evasion Resistance Escape. This was developed directly out of the Korean War by Louis Joly and West and others. And the resistance was really to create a mock POW camp stocked by Eastern European.

• 42:18Dax Shepard?

  There were stand ins for the Koreans?

• 42:20Speaker 02

  Well, stand ins for just who might be capturing you in the future. Men would be interrogated there and brutalized and waterboarded.

• 42:28Dax Shepard?

  In the training?

• 42:29Speaker 02

  In the training, yeah. It often involved really being punched until you fell down to the ground. And then when you struggled to stand up, being kicked or punched again over time. And so the person would lose track of the fact that their antagonist torturing them was actually a fellow member of the military, but they would fall under this disorienting condition. They would then maybe be locked in a Syrian box, which meant this tiny box, sometimes in the sun where you couldn't move your limbs and they would start to lose their minds.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  So we were doing this to our own people to get them ready for this? How is that going to do anything if you're just doing the exact same thing?

• 43:07Dax Shepard?

  Well, that's my question. So I wonder how effective it was. The men who went to Vietnam, had they received this training?

• 43:11Speaker 02

  Thirty thousand men initially, right after in 1956, went through this training to see if it was working. So it was regularized and routinized and then applied to any service member who was in danger of being captured. They also instilled a uniform code of conduct, which mandated that you couldn't say anything more than name, rank and serial number, which was supposed to address the brainwashing problem. So during Vietnam, Washington didn't really arise again, but I don't necessarily think it was being attempted either.

• 43:40Dax Shepard?

  I was gonna say, yeah, how do we know if that was a failed attempt by the Vietnamese or the great training the GIs received?

• 43:47Speaker 02

  There was classic torture that John McCain or Admiral Stockdale experienced. It had different purpose.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  They weren't that interested in ideological remolding or converting during Vietnam, but nonetheless, the training continued. And they were finding that troops themselves were damaged, that it was so brutal.

• 44:04Dax Shepard?

  Even if it's pretend.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not pretend if you're actually going through all the stuff.

• 44:09Dax Shepard?

  Pretend broken ribs.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  So they brought in the same experts to modify the training so that it wasn't actually crippling the men. Nonetheless, it was still very brutal. And even today, there are legends about it. And if you get in the company of veterans, they'll often tell you their seer stories, although technically they're not really supposed to talk about it.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 44:26Dax Shepard?

  It's also really easy to underestimate just how young all these people were.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  Their frontal lobes.

• 44:32Dax Shepard?

  Their identity isn't even solidified yet.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  I think people who think they could never be brainwashed could definitely be brainwashed, maybe the most susceptible.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  I agree with you. That 100% certainty is probably a sign. You could even use the Milgram experiments as another example of that.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  You talk about him to shocks. We've learned some stuff over the years here.

• 44:55Speaker 02

  It probably comes up sometimes in your interviews.

• 44:57Dax Shepard?

  There's like five studies we give, marshmallow, delayed gratification, you know, these.

• 45:01Speaker 02

  Classic touchstones.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they're ubiquitous.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  They're so good because they're almost parables of our time.

• 45:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:07Dax Shepard?

  They're our bible in a sense.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  I teach a whole class on them because the deeper you go in them, historically, they're very interesting. But with Milgram, as people watch the film, they often become convinced one way or the other. It's rare for someone to become convinced that they are sure they would have given shocks. I've heard of one person saying that, which I think is admirably honest.

• 45:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  She's a psychologist, but most students, I can see them wrestling and people don't always talk about what they think. But when you see someone who's 100% certain and even mocking those who gave shocks or who succumbed to this kind of intensive situation, it shows a kind of lack of imagination potentially of what it might be like. And also who's being tortured in this experiment, it's kind of invisible to us.

• 45:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:49Dax Shepard?

  If you told Monica she could get an A if she zapped people, she would have done it.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  That's mean. That's not even about brainwashing. That's just like trying to get ahead.

• 45:57Dax Shepard?

  No malgraim. I know. You get an A plus if you shock those people.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Oh, so mean.

• 46:02Dax Shepard?

  I know.

• 46:03Speaker 01

  No, I have a lot of integrity.

• 46:05Dax Shepard?

  I know you do.

• 46:06Speaker 01

  But I definitely think I could have ended up doing that with the thought that I guess it's fine. I mean, I could just see it. And we had somebody on I thought was so interesting who talked about this experiment, but also talked about the rookie cops in the George Floyd situation. And her whole take was everyone watches that and thinks, how come they didn't do anything? This is crazy. And she's like, most people in that position would not do anything. And to walk around with this moral high ground when you've never been in any of these positions is crazy to me. I'm always like, yeah, I think I probably wouldn't have done anything.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  You just don't know. And I think living your life so that should that occasion arise, you would know how to act.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think there's something really, I mean, this is a weird way of looking at it, but with you, with addiction and probably with you, and I have some things that I've done that I am shocked I did. My identity would not have lined up with certain actions. And so if you have experienced that, I think it's easier to say like, you know, we all sometimes do things we don't think.

• 47:11Dax Shepard?

  Who knows what I'm capable of?

• 47:12Speaker 01

  Who knows what anyone is?

• 47:14Speaker 02

  People like Thich Nhat Hanh write about. It's easy to be sympathetic of the victim, but to understand the capacity we all have. I was thinking about the fascination with scams we have, which is somewhat related to how people respond to brainwashing or cults. It's very reassuring to say, that's so absurd. If anyone details a scam that someone fell for, I even do this too, where you think, at this point, I never would have believed they were in FBI. There's something wrong with them. You try to identify that moment where you wouldn't have, or it's not you, just not me.

• 47:43Dax Shepard?

  So that you're not scared?

• 47:44Speaker 02

  You can turn it around and make it reassuring, but actually, these things are profoundly destabilizing because we're all subject to them.

• 47:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:51Dax Shepard?

  So how did MKUltra and the CIA take what they had learned from these Korean POWs and improve them and/or perfect them?

• 47:57Speaker 02

  So MKUltra was secretly funded in 1953 by the CIA.

• 48:03Speaker 02

  To be a comprehensive program investigating various routes for massive behavioral change. Or to go back to Cardinal Mendza, the idea, could you make someone into another person? And perhaps even like a perfect assassin, or just an operative? Or could it be used for interrogation purposes or things like that? So really, they created zones of free investigation clandestinely. And they funded them through conduits or cutouts. And there were about 150 sub projects.

• 48:31Dax Shepard?

  150?

• 48:32Speaker 02

  I think around 150. Some of them quite small, some of them involving dolphins, potential dolphin assassins.

• 48:38Dax Shepard?

  Some fell in love with those dolphins. We talked a lot about that.

• 48:40Speaker 02

  But then a lot of them involving LSD or hypnosis, or the ability to create dissociative states and unground systematically subjects in different ways so that they could be transformed. And so they really took the brainwashing episodes and created a scientific and military mandate. A lot of what the social sciences were interested in was creating a better running society in which people would assume their roles without being asked. So they would internalize codes and normalize routines.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Behave.

• 49:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, kind of behave. Because I guess you could really say that too much democracy was seen as concerning. Because surely each person couldn't just go about living as they wanted to. So there were ways that behaviorism and learning theory, that was also flourishing during this time.

• 49:28Dax Shepard?

  Do we have any smoking gun from the very top with a president's awareness going like, this is the goal. We're going to start subliminally doing this. Or we're going to try to start on a huge grand scale doing this.

• 49:41Speaker 02

  Dean Acheson, actually, the Secretary of State.

• 49:43Dax Shepard?

  Under Truman?

• 49:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, he said, in the United States, we are willing to let the rest of the world live as they want to live, as long as they believe as we do. There is a sense that if you could have a kind of inner conformity, people could go about their business. I don't know that he intended it exactly as I am interpreting it. But I would say that this describes the project that you also see among many behavioral scientists, which was seen in rats running through mazes, in elaborate Skinnerian systems where people are just responding to these kind of. Conditioning messages in order to take on certain roles. Actually, that it was for the common good because people don't actually know what they want. So might as well.

• 50:22Dax Shepard?

  We have a rise of cults as well. It was like the heyday, the seventies. When does the cult phenomena start taking out?

• 50:28Speaker 02

  I think it picks up in the late sixties.

• 50:31Dax Shepard?

  Manson's late sixties.

• 50:33Speaker 02

  And he overlaps or intersects with MKUltra.

• 50:36Dax Shepard?

  He was a participant?

• 50:37Speaker 01

  That's a theory.

• 50:38Speaker 02

  I've been hot on the trail of this. And you may know about the book Chaos by Tom O'Neill, where he investigates this as well. But in the Louis Jolyon West papers, where I just was yesterday, I found more evidence that West, who was one of the CIA's main behavioral experts, who went back to the Korean War, he had investigated the pilots, the soldiers. He'd done many other things, but he ran a project in Haight Ashbury that was affiliated with the Haight Ashbury Free Medical Clinic. And he was calling it the Amphetamine Research Project. And he had several people working under him, some of whom went to do ethnographic fieldwork with the Manson family in Mendocino. And the Amphetamine Research Project was run by Roger Smith, who was Charles Manson's parole officer, in addition to being a psychologist.

• 51:23Speaker 02

  And Roger Smith got a grant with Louis Jolyon West. So you can bring them very close together. This was before the Manson family committed the crimes for which they're known.

• 51:31Dax Shepard?

  I guess my question is, do these cult leaders stumble upon this stuff intuitively? Or was there at some point a guidebook for people?

• 51:40Speaker 02

  I think mostly intuitively, there's a kind of guidebook that they intuitively play out, is my sense. Often, it comes out of these extreme hierarchical power relationships that they cultivate, the effects of charisma, also just the cycles of blissful release that their followers get in cults creates this kind of dynamic where the cult leader is almost jealous of his followers and then it leads to a kind of abuse.

• 52:05Dax Shepard?

  Some kind of sadism?

• 52:06Speaker 02

  There's all sorts of dynamics that emerge in cults. And in the late sixties, before the Manson murders, cults are still kind of seen as intriguing.

• 52:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, what's the difference between an ashram and a cult? People are starting to live communally as the love movement's happening.

• 52:20Speaker 02

  There are all kinds of love movements. There are many back to the land. Which I have always found fascinating. Of course, the definition of a group as a cult is not always ironclad. In some cases, it is very damaging for one person, but could be briefly healthy or liberatory for someone else. So it's tricky.

• 52:36Dax Shepard?

  Well, I'm obsessed with cult docs. I think I've watched every single one of them. And what's undeniable is there's a huge period of bliss, of improvement, of growth, of community, of connection. You look at the Rajneeshis, if they don't go to war with their neighbors, I don't know that the thing ever goes sideways. It's like, they're all pretty happy, but now they need to outvote the town. So they gotta bring in homeless people and they lose control of that. Now they're poisoning a salad bar in town. You know, before this dispute happened, they're all kind of dancing and moaning and yelling.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  If I were going to write a review of Wild Wild Country, I would say that they selectively framed it because the cavorting wild dances and the realization, the sexual splendor. My husband grew up in the Bay Area around this time and he's like, they're not showing the automatic weapons they were all carrying that whole time. They were heavily into gun trafficking and drugs. And the documentary also takes the focus off of Osho as if he was kind of blissfully going along. And his second in command was poisoning the salad bars.

• 53:34Dax Shepard?

  Maana and Sheila, she's like my biggest crush ever.

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:37Dax Shepard?

  God, what a powerhouse. Sitting like a 23 year old girl from India to the US and said, build me a city and she did? What a woman.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Think about what she could have done if she didn't get swept up.

• 53:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:49Dax Shepard?

  I kind of bought that because of my addiction background. So Osh is, as we learned, he's a benzo addict. He's like on a ton of value. I did buy into like, yeah, I bet he was checked out and fucking occasionally, but there's no way he would have bothered himself with any of the.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I suppose that's true, but he still was heavily involved in the manipulative practices.

• 54:09Speaker 01

  I mean, he had all the votes.

• 54:10Dax Shepard?

  He did have the special access that no one had without him.

• 54:13Speaker 02

  He also had a lot of needs for all the Rolls Royces.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:17Dax Shepard?

  So incongruous, the whole flashy nature of him.

• 54:19Speaker 01

  It's always so wild. The big party conversation people have is like, would you be susceptible to a cult? But are we all susceptible to starting cults? Is everyone equally like, maybe you give someone enough power and we could all be that?

• 54:33Dax Shepard?

  She's subtweeting me right now.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  No, I'm asking a real question.

• 54:37Speaker 02

  That's an interesting twist on the question. Not would you join a cult, but might you start a cult?

• 54:41Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 54:42Speaker 02

  You can see people get carried away by a little bit of power. I used to say that with teaching assistants sometimes in graduate school. Give them a little bit of power, suddenly they're patrolling the classroom.

• 54:52Dax Shepard?

  It's the prison experiment. They're guards.

• 54:54Speaker 02

  But not everyone did that in the Stanford prison experiments. But a couple of people show a real aptitude for it, like the John Wayne character in that one. So it's a complex condition that we're all involved in.

• 55:07Dax Shepard?

  So can you tell us the steps of how it works in a cult? You enter, hey, my name's Dax, and then I wake up and I'm clearly a devotee of a cult. What things have to happen?

• 55:17Speaker 02

  If you're talking about an abusive cult, often there has to be a condition where you encounter a recruitment that you may not know is a recruitment, or you may be misinformed about the nature of the group. Sometimes it's just you're standing on one street corner or not another. You were waiting for one bus where they happened to be sending people out, but you're maybe misinformed, you attend a meeting, so you're drawn in to some degree. You are exposed to group activities. You're probably love bombed. It can happen extremely quickly, and I think many people are surprised by that.

• 55:47Dax Shepard?

  Would it be fair to say they would be already over indexing and being ungrounded? Because that seems consistent when I look at the people who joined Nexium or the people who joined all these groups. They're already felt a little untethered or unmoored, and they were in search already of something.

• 56:01Speaker 02

  I think we underestimate how incredibly socially attuned we all are. When I was a freshman in college, my roommate and I, on one of the first days of school, we saw a flyer that said, "Free vegetarian dinner," and we were very excited. We presented ourselves there. There was indeed a free dinner. And then afterwards, these members of the group said, "Could you just sign this piece of paper and just say, 'It's just pro forma, but you would be the vice president of our group.'"

• 56:26Speaker 01

  What?

• 56:26Speaker 02

  And we were two days into school and we signed it. And then the next day, the dean of the college called us and said, "Did you really mean to do this?" And we were like, "No."

• 56:35Dax Shepard?

  What do you know what it means?

• 56:36Speaker 02

  We didn't even know what it meant.

• 56:37Dax Shepard?

  What did it mean?

• 56:38Speaker 02

  It meant that they had the right to be on campus. They just wanted a toehold in campus. It was Krishna maybe, but they didn't really tell us what they were.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  They are vegetarian.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  So often, yeah, the vegetarian.

• 56:50Dax Shepard?

  It feels so friendly, right?

• 56:51Speaker 01

  Be careful of vegetarians.

• 56:53Dax Shepard?

  You get invited to like a barbecue, you're like, shit, there might be some fights. But you hear free vegetarian food and you just think, yeah, there's gonna be some peace.

• 56:59Speaker 02

  Well, there's many things that work quite well, especially for a seeker. Most people are seekers to some degree. An invitation to an environmental group or something that seems very benign or altruistic. And especially if it's misrepresented, just getting the person there, exposing them to these intense conversations, not letting them be alone, sometimes not letting them even go to the bathroom alone. If they'll agree.

• 57:22Dax Shepard?

  Well, I was thinking of the Maoist stuff, the method that seems really present in a lot of these cult documentaries I've watched is like you have food restriction quite often. You have the narrative part where you're telling your own story. There's kind of a therapy aspect, the discussion where you're implored to talk about your childhood and explore that. It's like you can see that it has the same arc almost as the Mao.

• 57:42Speaker 02

  It really does. And that's why the experts who had studied the P O Ws recognize this. There's a revelation of the self. There's also exposure to texts and lectures and discussions. Oh, there's often sleep deprivation too. A famous cult deprogrammer from the seventies, Ted Patrick, his son at 14 was almost lured onto this school bus that was commandeered by the Children of God, which is one of the most notorious cults. And his son luckily escaped, but he then went the next day to see what was happening and he stayed overnight. And he said, even though he was a 45 year old veteran and a lot of experience and a man of God, he said, you're bombarded by so much information and this intense eye contact. And never getting to go to the bathroom by yourself, you're very sleep deprived.

• 58:27Speaker 02

  They're playing scripture over and over because they will mobilize biblical sayings to change the tone. Also being asked about your bank account simultaneously. He said he found himself being unmoored, even though he had explicitly come there to understand and demystify it.

• 58:43Dax Shepard?

  Have either of you thought to yourself, I am in a cult, I have two personal experiences?

• 58:50Speaker 01

  I've had cult like, definitely not for real, but cult like experiences. I mean, part of that is a good business. Sometimes has that SoulCycle had cult-like things around it. Its own language. I know all of our tech companies have all of that. They have rungs in their own language and it's very culty. I wouldn't call it a cult though. And UCB, that was an improv school and theater, but it was culty. You wanted to rise in the ranks. You wanted to be beloved there. But no, not for real, for real.

• 59:22Speaker 02

  Or even Harvard, people say it resembles a cult in a certain way, just because there's certain language we use.

• 59:27Dax Shepard?

  You're very in-group, out-group.

• 59:29Speaker 02

  It's a powerful experience just to be socialized in that way. And it can have resonances with a cult, but I'm curious.

• 59:35Dax Shepard?

  For me, AA for sure, in so many ways, it is a cult. And then I definitely look at the methodology by which they get you is, A, anyone coming to an AA meeting for their first time is already ungrounded. That's why they're there. Their life is obliterated. They don't know who they are. They've been acting in all these ways that are inconsistent with their morals. So we did the work for you. We show up kind of deconstructed and it's a group and there's language and there's a text and it has a lot of built-in, non-falsifiable claims. Like you don't have to believe in God, but you do. There's a lot of clever.

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  There's a lot of story building and sharing.

• 1:00:19Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God. Yeah, it's almost exclusively sharing your story, exploring it, learning a new way to live. So it's interesting. I have been in it and I'm aware of that. And yet I go, well, the alternative for me was death. So this is far preferable. I can handle being in this cult. Now, forget cult. What I really think is brainwashing. What is a little bit unique and good about AA is there's no leader. I think that's what saves it from being potentially destructive because it's this very powerful mechanism that could destroy people if there were even a single leader. There's not even a person in charge of the room. So that's its kind of maybe built-in safety net. But the way I think over 21 years of being there.

• 1:01:06Dax Shepard?

  Is I find myself recognizing, oh, it's very regimented. That's very myopic. That's very unflexible. That doesn't account for the variety of human beings there are in the world. There's a lot of things I have to confront. I was having a conversation with a great friend of mine who's been in it roughly the same time as me. He's older. He's a genius. And we were talking and we share a therapist. And the therapist comes from this very unique point of view, which is he was in the program for a long time. He was an addict. He stopped going. And he also treats a lot of people. And he's like, there are some givens we learned that I don't know that I believe are givens. And then hearing someone, an authority who is smart and trustworthy, even just that little poke.

• 1:01:49Dax Shepard?

  And then I found myself saying to my friend the other night, like, this part's a little weird. And it's fascinating. To me, I would probably put it more in the brainwashing category. And I don't even think nefariously. Again, there's no one in charge, but I do recognize I have to weed through a lot of thinking that's pretty ironclad in my head.

• 1:02:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've had similar experiences. A lot of former addicts gravitate towards Ashtanga yoga, which I did too. Well, I love yoga anyway for the last 35 years, but Ashtanga is this particular form that's very intensive. It did have a guru.

• 1:02:20Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:02:20Speaker 02

  Passed away. I wasn't interested in that personally, but it just felt like such a health giving practice. And even though I could hear the criticisms, it turns out he was making these invasive adjustments of women.

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:02:34Speaker 02

  Pelvic adjustments that he claimed were, it's a little bit like those gymnastics.

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  Larry Nassar.

• 1:02:39Dax Shepard?

  And like Bikram.

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  I think he was just having sex with people.

• 1:02:41Dax Shepard?

  He was doing it all, yeah.

• 1:02:42Speaker 02

  He was mandating massages.

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:02:45Speaker 02

  But with Ashtanga was this interesting reckoning over the last five or six years, but I had already, for other reasons, modified my yoga practice. But people who were present when it was happening, but said they either didn't see it or didn't think it was what it was, or the person involved seemed fine, or they told themselves it was okay. Or, you know, this whole reckoning in the community, also the fact that the adjustments can be quite abusive and cause so much damage and so many injuries over the years. But people want an extreme experience and it will deliver that.

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:15Speaker 02

  So it's like a high. I think it's bringing awareness to whatever you do. You may feel like, I finally found this. This is the antidote.

• 1:03:25Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 1:03:31Dax Shepard?

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• 1:04:54Dax Shepard?

  This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I have my dream job. I get to talk to folks I admire like crazy and ask them virtually any question that I want to. I can't imagine a better way to spend my time. But even dream jobs have some not-so-dreamy parts, the stuff that gets in the way of the actual work. Now, that's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it, start to finish. Cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. So you and your team can focus on what matters most, which for me is, are they obsessed with male bodies on the same level as I am?

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  They never are.

• 1:05:38Dax Shepard?

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• 1:06:20Dax Shepard?

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• 1:07:47Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so all the things we've talked about are what we might call hard brainwashing. Tell us what's soft brainwashing and tell us what's pervasive in our current landscape that we need to be aware of and tell us how it works and what things are out there.

• 1:08:00Speaker 02

  The history is meant to bring us up to the present moment and give us some tools to think about our current destabilizing environment. I looked at the emergence of social media and some key moments that are often not talked about. So if you look at, there was a famous experiment Facebook ran in 2012, but it was published in 2014 where 700,000 users, they changed the emotional valence of their feed without telling them, although it's part of your user agreement that you could be experimented on, but people didn't know that. So some of the people received, they said, a more positive feed as judged by the word count and the emotional valence, and others received a more negative one. And those whose feed was adjusted negatively, they

• 1:08:43Speaker 02

  then counted how they reacted. Did they post more negatively or react more negatively?

• 1:08:48Dax Shepard?

  Were they counting how much time spent on the app itself, maybe?

• 1:08:51Speaker 02

  They've counted engagement in subsequent experiments, but in this one, they mostly counted how they responded and they found that there was a statistically significant shift in the emotional content of the responses. When your feed was altered more negatively and sometimes to a greater degree than your posting or reactions would be more negative. And so this was confirmed as a case of proving or operationalizing emotional contagion at a distance. People just could be exposed to this change and then their internal states would then change. And so the interesting thing I found in examining this experiment was, first of all, that Facebook published it in a prominent journal, PNAS, and that is sort of a self congratulatory move, which they never really repeated because it caused so much controversy. But when you

• 1:09:35Speaker 02

  look at the actual article, they cite a 1990 definition where they get this idea of mass emotional contagion at scale. And this was from a team of researchers at the University of Hawaii. And if you look at how they defined emotional contagion, they were actually drawing on a memoir of trauma that was written by Vivian Gornick called Fierce Attachment. They say this is how we define emotional contagion is what happened between this woman and her mother, who was an extremely disturbed woman. And she had a really complex relationship with her daughter. And Vivian Gornick wrote this wonderful book, Fierce Attachment, which is kind of a masterpiece describing the spread of trauma between a mother and daughter and these intense emotions. And that's the definition that Facebook was

• 1:10:16Speaker 02

  using of emotional contagion. So it's kind of built into the experiment, I'm arguing. In a second way, when they use the word counting software that they drew on, which is called Luke, this software was based on the diaries of people who had been asked to write about the worst experience of their lives. And that was how they came to define the words they used. We focus on messaging, but what I want to show is that there's a level of trauma and intense emotional suffering that's kind of built into the operations of the app. There's also Catherine Lu, this interesting scholar at University of California, shows that trauma, I think she's writing a new book about this, but that it's very profitable in the apps, draws eyes, it draws traffic. Oh, yeah.

• 1:10:58Speaker 02

  So it's kind of like a trafficking and people who do content moderation are constantly exposed to it. Similar to the brainwashing episodes of classic brainwashing or hard brainwashing, there's a way it's steeped in trauma and yet not necessarily recognized as such.

• 1:11:11Dax Shepard?

  And people will now point out, people voluntarily complied with that. We started just giving you a full time access to ourselves and filming everything we do. But both sides are working, right? Because people are posting their trauma.

• 1:11:24Speaker 02

  That's why I like the definition of brainwashing as coercive persuasion, because it's not pure coercion. There's an element of participation. There's a kind of a yes, even if it's unknown to yourself or not perfectly understood. There's a collaborative element, which I think is what makes it interesting and why it's uncomfortable to think about.

• 1:11:42Dax Shepard?

  Well, we're a lot more comfortable with the notion someone chose to smoke cigarettes, and that's why they have lung cancer. They just loved a perfect life and they got lung cancer. We don't like that. That's very scary. I mean, we might get lung cancer. But we do love an element of complicity. It helps us not take on so much anguish, because you go, oh, they kind of. Elected to do that.

• 1:12:04Speaker 01

  But I think we also like a victim and a villain.

• 1:12:08Dax Shepard?

  Oppressor.

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, but to know that everyone's kind of doing both things makes everything very complicated.

• 1:12:15Speaker 02

  Cults are perfect examples of that as well, because you forget that everyone except the leader at the top is both victimized but also victimizing. It's hard to know where to draw the line.

• 1:12:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they're on mission, they're converting.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:28Dax Shepard?

  I have to say, and this sounds dismissive to other cult members, but NXIVM interested me the most because of all the subjects of these cults I had met in these other documentaries, so many of them were outwardly searching so hard for something. They were just waiting for a guru to walk in front of them. But the NXIVM crew, they were above-average intelligence, most of them. They were very critical thinkers, that's what they were bound by. And then I got obsessed with, well, what's this guy's magic spell on these very critically thinking, smart adults? And I think what I observed was, he weaponized that against them. Every time they asked him some big philosophical question, his response would be, "Well, what do you think?"

• 1:13:11Dax Shepard?

  And they were so keen to impress him that they would come up with their very best explanation. And in doing that, they gave themselves the answer, and he just would sign off on it. He outsourced the actual dogma to them. He used their intelligence against them. And then, back to your point of people thinking they wouldn't be susceptible, or they would be, it's like, well, here's this group that he figured out how to get them to indoctrinate themselves.

• 1:13:36Speaker 02

  That's beautifully put. I completely agree. Because if you look at Keith Raniere, who presented himself as world's smartest man and world's most handsome man, it's hard to believe that. He also used to say that the rain didn't fall on him. He could be walking outside and it fell on other people, but not on him. So you'd think that an intelligent person wouldn't necessarily believe that. But he did attract, and they do say this, that cult members are often highly intelligent. Intelligence does not protect you. It actually can make the web tighter and more effective, because you're very good at convincing yourself and others. But Raniere, what he was really good at was turning them against themselves, turning their gifts against themselves.

• 1:14:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  Well, in some ways, it's love bombing. Like you said, he's allowing them to feel like, oh, my God, I impressed him and he's the smartest person in the world. I guess I must be my best version of myself here. I think there's a lot of that, like, oh, my God, he's bringing out the best of me.

• 1:14:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And when you're watching those guys, they're on the Santa Monica Pier. Now, they've been deprogrammed and disillusioned and they're just chatting and they're recognizing some of the things they believed. And one of the guys just goes, yeah, he was a judo champ at seven. And they both are like, oh, my God, how did we?

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  How do we believe?

• 1:14:48Dax Shepard?

  Was it fucking me, a seven-year-old judo champ?

• 1:14:50Speaker 02

  It's like a spell is broken.

• 1:14:51Dax Shepard?

  Yes. And the absurdity of these things they had heard now has come flooding out. And I imagine just the shame that that induces.

• 1:14:58Speaker 02

  So to continue that to today, it seems like the stakes are much smaller, but I argue that that's not the case, even though we're dealing with ordinary circumstances, yet they are always connected to the extraordinary. It's very easy now to silo yourself in terms of what you're exposed to and to find news or information that just confirms your predilections. So I think that if you are finding that, or if you're not exposing yourself to challenging material, or just things that don't agree with what you already think, that's something to be concerned about, or something to kind of disrupt. These dynamics can feed on your altruism and also your repository of unresolved emotions and then just crank them up to the point where you're not really paying attention.

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:38Speaker 02

  So bringing down the temperature and in whatever way you cannot contribute to polarization.

• 1:15:43Dax Shepard?

  I hope everyone checks out The Instability of Truth: Brainwashing, Mind Control, and Hyper-Persuasion. I'm a slow reader and I was blasting through it. There's so much historical stuff in there. I love the history. I mean, there's just so many elements of the Korean War that I hadn't known about or properly sympathized with.

• 1:16:01Speaker 02

  Isn't that profound? It's such a forgotten war.

• 1:16:03Speaker 01

  No one talks about it.

• 1:16:04Dax Shepard?

  Well, the sequel was so much longer. Everly protested.

• 1:16:07Speaker 01

  Cultural.

• 1:16:08Speaker 02

  The whole experience of researching it was amazing to me.

• 1:16:11Dax Shepard?

  All right. Well, Rebecca, this was so fun. Thank you so much.

• 1:16:13Speaker 02

  It was so fun. Thank you both.

• 1:16:17Dax Shepard?

  Stay tuned to hear Miss Monica correct all the facts that were wrong. It's okay, though. We all make mistakes.

• 1:16:25Dax Shepard?

  I screen grabbed something.

• 1:16:27Speaker 01

  Tell me.

• 1:16:28Dax Shepard?

  I know if I want you to find this interesting, it cannot be about the Cold War.

• 1:16:34Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:16:34Dax Shepard?

  So hopefully I didn't screen grab something about the Cold War.

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  I hope it's about fashion.

• 1:16:38Dax Shepard?

  Okay, fun to hear updates and the subject synthesized so well. For Monica's anxiety about death, you are on the right track with one of the ways to manage that response. I did CBT for anxiety about death and the training is what you say, look at probabilities and odds, focusing on stats and having self compassion when the worries override the stats and likelihoods. Also, acceptance that we actually have so little control from an existential standpoint and being truly zen about that from a place of gratitude for each day helps. It's tough to get to that place, though. It took me years. People like Monica and me are prone to rumination, AKA sticky brain. It sucks so much and is

• 1:17:20Dax Shepard?

  tough to understand if you don't experience it. Similar to obsessional thinking, Monica's brain is micro obsessing about death now and making her anxious. Just a perspective since I know you don't suffer anxiety the same way.

• 1:17:34Speaker 01

  Wow, that was nice.

• 1:17:35Dax Shepard?

  That was a nice comment. Someone really took some time to try to help.

• 1:17:38Speaker 01

  They did. Thank you. Sticky brain. I've never heard that.

• 1:17:41Dax Shepard?

  That's what I'm gonna start calling you now. Sticky brain. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Darmchair expert. I'm Dan Rather and joined by Sticky Brain.

• 1:17:47Speaker 01

  I hate, I hate the way that sounds.

• 1:17:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I had a hunch it was gonna not sit right.

• 1:17:52Speaker 01

  I didn't like that. Is it rude for me to talk about this?

• 1:17:56Dax Shepard?

  Oh, that's always a good start.

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  When somebody is reaching out to you a lot about hanging out,

• 1:18:04Speaker 01

  but you don't really know them well.

• 1:18:07Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:18:07Speaker 01

  And so that's just not gonna be your priority.

• 1:18:13Speaker 01

  How do you handle?

• 1:18:15Dax Shepard?

  Well, and this might tip you into...

• 1:18:19Dax Shepard?

  Child ownership. I have much better built in excuses than you do and they're legit, which is I don't do anything. Every night of the week, I'm home with my kids, eating dinner and then watching TV, right?

• 1:18:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:34Dax Shepard?

  So I can just always go like, oh yeah, I don't, which is true. Also, we get a babysitter like six times a year.

• 1:18:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:18:41Dax Shepard?

  So I really make it kind of clear. Um, I, I just, I don't, I'm not social and you really.

• 1:18:49Speaker 01

  It's not true though. Like you go to breakfast with people, you make time for the people that you are prioritizing.

• 1:18:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So I can do a breakfast.

• 1:18:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:58Dax Shepard?

  Once every month and a half, I'll do a dude's dinner, maybe two months. Yeah.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  There are times that you prioritize it, but.

• 1:19:06Dax Shepard?

  But that's like top tier best friend maintenance.

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  That's, that's what I have time for.

• 1:19:12Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  And I feel like I don't know, cause I'll say like, oh, sometimes I'll say, I can't for the foreseeable future.

• 1:19:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Now, so that I gotta put that on them. If I ask someone to hang out and they said, I can't for the foreseeable future. I would go, okay, yeah, they don't want to hang out.

• 1:19:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's not okay. And I don't, it's not personal. It's not like I don't want to hang out with this person specifically. It's I, I, I just only have time for the people that I barely that.

• 1:19:51Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:19:51Speaker 01

  To prioritize. Yeah.

• 1:19:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:53Speaker 01

  And I want to use that time for those people and not, I like, you know, it sounds mean. It really sounds mean. And I understand that it sounds mean, which is why I find this to be troublesome.

• 1:20:04Dax Shepard?

  Right. Get a kid.

• 1:20:07Speaker 01

  No, cause I, I.

• 1:20:10Dax Shepard?

  I thought you were going to though.

• 1:20:11Speaker 01

  I haven't decided.

• 1:20:12Dax Shepard?

  Oh, but after, uh.

• 1:20:14Speaker 01

  Mindy.

• 1:20:14Dax Shepard?

  Mindy, you kind of were.

• 1:20:16Speaker 01

  I was thinking about it and I'm still thinking about it, but well, then this is like. Part of the overall thing. As a parent, you can say that, right? Like you can say like, oh, I just

• 1:20:30Dax Shepard?

  I'm with the kids every night.

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  I've been with the kids. I don't think I'll really be able to make it happen.

• 1:20:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  And

• 1:20:36Dax Shepard?

  And it's true, which is great.

• 1:20:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, but my stuff is true, too.

• 1:20:40Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, I'm just saying.

• 1:20:41Speaker 01

  No, I know.

• 1:20:42Dax Shepard?

  It's an excuse and it's not an excuse. Like, I really am home every night.

• 1:20:47Speaker 01

  And you go to your meetings, you do, like, you prioritize the things in your life.

• 1:20:50Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 1:20:50Speaker 01

  And so do I. And I guess that's like, it's the same thing, but if a single person says it, it sounds more like you're just saying you don't want to.

• 1:21:00Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  And it seems more rude when really it's the same thing. It's like, I'm prioritizing the things in my life that are important to me.

• 1:21:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:09Speaker 01

  I don't think I can add anything new in right now.

• 1:21:12Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:21:12Speaker 01

  Same with parent, young parents and old parents.

• 1:21:17Dax Shepard?

  Like me.

• 1:21:18Speaker 01

  I wasn't pointing to you.

• 1:21:19Dax Shepard?

  Grandparent parents.

• 1:21:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. If I am working, that's one category, right?

• 1:21:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  That's one category of things I have to do during the day.

• 1:21:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:27Speaker 01

  Category two is being by myself.

• 1:21:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:30Speaker 01

  I need some time to myself.

• 1:21:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:33Speaker 01

  That leaves a small amount of time for social.

• 1:21:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:37Speaker 01

  And there's two types of social. There is social with basically family, like friends who are basically family.

• 1:21:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  You don't have to be or do anything but be yourself. Show up as you.

• 1:21:52Dax Shepard?

  That's right. Come as you are.

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:54Dax Shepard?

  BYOB.

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:21:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:55Speaker 01

  Then there's the other bucket of social, which is you have to be on a little bit because you don't know them as well.

• 1:22:06Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 1:22:06Speaker 01

  You just have to be like the best version of yourself. Yes. Let alone the category of dates, which we haven't even thrown in the mix.

• 1:22:15Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  Okay?

• 1:22:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  So currently, my time is only for

• 1:22:22Dax Shepard?

  Your voice got high.

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  Currently, my time is

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  Apparently.

• 1:22:27Dax Shepard?

  Counted for.

• 1:22:28Speaker 01

  Because we also have to be on during this job quite a lot.

• 1:22:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, many hours a week.

• 1:22:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so I'm a little spent of that mode.

• 1:22:36Dax Shepard?

  You want to be a dud. You want to be able to be a dud.

• 1:22:39Speaker 01

  And my, my close friends will allow that.

• 1:22:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they accept the dud version.

• 1:22:45Speaker 01

  My fear is I'm have, I'm telling people like, I don't have time to do this, I'm sorry, basically. And then those people are gonna see me out.

• 1:22:56Dax Shepard?

  Sure, with Jess and Anna.

• 1:22:58Speaker 01

  Exactly, with my friends.

• 1:23:00Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:23:00Speaker 01

  And be like, fuck you, you said you couldn't. And for me, what I want to say is like, that's a different category.

• 1:23:09Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:23:10Speaker 01

  That I do make time for because I need that restoratively.

• 1:23:14Dax Shepard?

  I don't think any of these people are entitled to all that information. I think you just need to relieve yourself of the guilt.

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  Like, write a note, make 80 copies, and then pass it out?

• 1:23:24Dax Shepard?

  Well, look, I do have a set thing in my notes that I have. Yes, because I get asked very often to ask Kristen to do things.

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  Ah, you mean go out?

• 1:23:38Dax Shepard?

  No, uh, hey, I've got this project Kristen would be great for. Hey, this charity event, can Kristen help?

• 1:23:44Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:23:45Dax Shepard?

  And it's a very sincere, and it's true, which is, I won't be a conduit of requests.

• 1:23:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:52Dax Shepard?

  To Kristen. She gets it all the time and it's not gonna come from me.

• 1:23:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:23:55Dax Shepard?

  It's damaging to the relationship.

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:58Dax Shepard?

  For us to be not wanting to hear what each other has to say.

• 1:24:00Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:24:01Dax Shepard?

  So I took the time at some point to write out a very thoughtful version of that. But I don't want to have to do that every single time, so I have it in my notes and I just copy and paste.

• 1:24:11Speaker 01

  Oh my God, do you want to read it?

• 1:24:13Dax Shepard?

  So maybe, I wonder if I can find it now that I've said that.

• 1:24:21Dax Shepard?

  Not if you've received this, then you know.

• 1:24:23Speaker 01

  See.

• 1:24:23Dax Shepard?

  That's okay, cuz it's all it's legit and I stand by it. No, I can't find it.

• 1:24:28Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:24:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think the parents deal with it the most.

• 1:24:32Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 1:24:33Dax Shepard?

  Like, my mom gets a lot of requests. I think Kristen's mom gets a lot of requests. And I get it cuz you're like, oh, a parent can ask their kid anything.

• 1:24:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:24:42Dax Shepard?

  Right?

• 1:24:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's true.

• 1:24:43Dax Shepard?

  Like, if I wanted Ace to do something, I'd be like, I just ask Charlie, he'll, he'll ask him.

• 1:24:48Speaker 01

  Probably.

• 1:24:49Dax Shepard?

  He's got no autonomy. He's gotta listen to this request.

• 1:24:52Speaker 01

  Child.

• 1:24:52Dax Shepard?

  I should ask Ace if he'll host a gala.

• 1:24:55Speaker 01

  He'd be great.

• 1:24:56Dax Shepard?

  He would, if he danced.

• 1:24:57Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, he's such a good dancer.

• 1:25:00Dax Shepard?

  He and Lincoln were so cute at Disneyland.

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:25:02Dax Shepard?

  It's so fun to watch. They really get along, really. They weren't dancing. That's the problem. That's the annoying and attractive thing about Ace is he's the world's best dancer, but he won't.

• 1:25:13Speaker 01

  I know, I love that. I get it.

• 1:25:15Dax Shepard?

  Like, if I were him, all I would do is dance.

• 1:25:17Speaker 01

  I know, and then people would be like, can you stop?

• 1:25:19Dax Shepard?

  I know, I would exploit it and wring it out for every bit of attention I could, and he doesn't. He's like, he was, he was right to be trusted with that superpower.

• 1:25:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:28Dax Shepard?

  Although he needs to lighten up the reins a little bit. I think, like, on Thanksgiving, he should do a dance performance for us.

• 1:25:32Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:25:32Dax Shepard?

  Once a year, he should put on. We sit through these other talent shows with the kids.

• 1:25:37Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:25:38Dax Shepard?

  And the videos they make. We got an actual bona fide talent in the mix, and he's not showing us.

• 1:25:43Speaker 01

  But he is, it's exactly correct cuz we are like, oh, I just wish he would dance for us.

• 1:25:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:50Speaker 01

  That's what you want. You want people to want you bad.

• 1:25:52Dax Shepard?

  Do you think it's weird? I think everyone does this, but do you think it's weird to look at a kid and go like, oh, my God, he's, he's gonna do so well with the ladies? Like, every time I'm around Ace, all I can think is like, God, this guy's the, every option's gonna be available to him.

• 1:26:05Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:26:06Dax Shepard?

  Great dancer, sweetheart, gorgeous.

• 1:26:10Speaker 01

  Um. I do think that's your first instinct.

• 1:26:13Dax Shepard?

  Everyone's or Dax's?

• 1:26:15Speaker 01

  Dax's.

• 1:26:15Dax Shepard?

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:26:16Speaker 01

  Um, it's not my first instinct.

• 1:26:18Dax Shepard?

  It's not?

• 1:26:18Speaker 01

  No. I think you put a lot of emphasis on dancing.

• 1:26:22Dax Shepard?

  Romantic love. Oh, dancing. Yeah.

• 1:26:25Speaker 01

  Dancing's hot, but it's not like...

• 1:26:27Dax Shepard?

  You don't think it's a silver bullet?

• 1:26:29Speaker 01

  I don't.

• 1:26:30Dax Shepard?

  I do.

• 1:26:31Speaker 01

  I know you do.

• 1:26:31Dax Shepard?

  If you look good dancing.

• 1:26:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:33Dax Shepard?

  It's not like you can just know the running man. If you look stupid doing the running man.

• 1:26:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, but there's just so few opportunities in this world to dance. It's not like when we were in college and everyone was dancing every night.

• 1:26:44Dax Shepard?

  Well, no, if you're into dancing, you go out dancing and people see you, they see you.

• 1:26:49Speaker 01

  But when you're an adult, when...

• 1:26:51Dax Shepard?

  I see you, your dog, Charlie.

• 1:26:53Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:26:54Dax Shepard?

  Rottweiler.

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  And I, as an adult, um, there are so many adults I know that I've never seen them dance. I have no idea what they look like dancing.

• 1:27:08Dax Shepard?

  Well, you know what everyone in the pod looks like dancing?

• 1:27:10Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:27:11Dax Shepard?

  Sure, we've been to weddings, we've been to...

• 1:27:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, but like, nothing stands out.

• 1:27:17Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:27:17Speaker 01

  At all.

• 1:27:18Dax Shepard?

  Come on, roller skate parties.

• 1:27:20Speaker 01

  Roller skate parties isn't dancing.

• 1:27:22Dax Shepard?

  You could name the great dancers. Erica, great dancer, we know it.

• 1:27:27Speaker 01

  She's a great dancer, but that's, I know that because she posts videos of her dancing in a dance class.

• 1:27:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and you've seen her.

• 1:27:33Speaker 01

  But not like, she's not, that's not...

• 1:27:35Dax Shepard?

  Matt and Laura's wedding?

• 1:27:36Speaker 01

  It doesn't resonate with me.

• 1:27:38Dax Shepard?

  It's not a priority for you.

• 1:27:40Speaker 01

  At all.

• 1:27:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:41Speaker 01

  And in fact, like you say, Matt and Laura, I'm like, I don't know what Laura looks like dancing.

• 1:27:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, cause you, maybe because you never were, that wasn't anything you were into personally. Like, you were never like, I'm a great dancer.

• 1:27:51Speaker 01

  Every, we went out five times a week.

• 1:27:55Dax Shepard?

  Well, I think a woman that dances well is very sexy.

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 1:27:58Dax Shepard?

  And it's a way to look cool.

• 1:28:00Speaker 01

  Um, yeah.

• 1:28:02Dax Shepard?

  You know, that's not for you. That's okay.

• 1:28:04Speaker 01

  It's not not for me. It's not like I'm not attracted to it, but it's, it's not on my...

• 1:28:11Dax Shepard?

  But what about Anderson Paak?

• 1:28:12Speaker 01

  Top five.

• 1:28:12Dax Shepard?

  If she can't dance, then she can't, ooh!

• 1:28:15Speaker 01

  Okay, I don't think that's true.

• 1:28:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think you can have sex if you can't dance.

• 1:28:20Speaker 01

  Right. So that's a lie that he said that.

• 1:28:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but I do think someone who's very in touch with their body and knows how to move their body, it's a good signal. Let me just ask you this, there's two guys, they're identical twin brothers.

• 1:28:32Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:28:32Dax Shepard?

  They look the same, they have the same personality.

• 1:28:34Speaker 01

  The exact same personality.

• 1:28:35Dax Shepard?

  Yes, one of them is dancing like a dad.

• 1:28:39Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:28:40Dax Shepard?

  And the other one is dancing very well.

• 1:28:44Speaker 01

  Okay, listen, that's not a good.

• 1:28:45Dax Shepard?

  It's a perfect one.

• 1:28:47Speaker 01

  No, it's not because you made them the same. You made them the same.

• 1:28:50Dax Shepard?

  The only different, the only variable is their dancing.

• 1:28:53Speaker 01

  Obviously.

• 1:28:54Dax Shepard?

  So which one do you want to get in bed with?

• 1:28:55Speaker 01

  No, that's not how you play this game. You have to give me different sets of, of good things. And one of them is dancing on one person.

• 1:29:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:05Speaker 01

  The other has other stuff and I have to pick. If obviously they're the exact same and they're, they're dancing, I'm obviously going to pick that.

• 1:29:13Dax Shepard?

  Great, because you would, you would say it's a tra, it's more attractive than not.

• 1:29:17Speaker 01

  Yes, I, I already said that. I said it is.

• 1:29:20Dax Shepard?

  I thought it was like a, who cares?

• 1:29:22Speaker 01

  No, you're not listening.

• 1:29:23Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I'm trying.

• 1:29:24Speaker 01

  I said, I said it's not that it's not attractive, it is attractive.

• 1:29:28Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:29:28Speaker 01

  But it's not on my list, it's not like top five things.

• 1:29:33Dax Shepard?

  Great.

• 1:29:33Speaker 01

  So yes, of course, if top five things are met with two people and they're the same person and they look exactly the same and have the exact same personality.

• 1:29:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:41Speaker 01

  I'm not going to say no to good dancing.

• 1:29:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:43Speaker 01

  But if it's like guy A.

• 1:29:45Dax Shepard?

  And really quick. When you look at them and you're like, I wonder who's better in bed. Would you not assume that the guy that's coordinated and on rhythm is better in bed?

• 1:29:56Speaker 01

  If they have the exact same everything, yeah.

• 1:30:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, okay, good. Anyways, Ace is a spectacular dancer. Lincoln and he were having so much fun together.

• 1:30:06Speaker 01

  That's fun.

• 1:30:06Dax Shepard?

  And we were, again, we were gay dads, as you know.

• 1:30:13Speaker 01

  Great.

• 1:30:13Dax Shepard?

  Uh, at Disneyland.

• 1:30:15Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:30:16Dax Shepard?

  But we were not as built this trip, we're not as big.

• 1:30:20Speaker 01

  You are.

• 1:30:22Dax Shepard?

  Well, just keep it neutral.

• 1:30:23Speaker 01

  This whole episode is a disaster.

• 1:30:32Dax Shepard?

  I'm a little bigger than Charlie at the moment, which is very rare. First time in our total, in our whole friendship, I'm a little bigger than him. So I think the, what people assume changed. Remember the last time he was like, he was an Adonis and they thought, I must be an architect. Do you remember this whole thing?

• 1:30:49Speaker 01

  Only vaguely.

• 1:30:50Dax Shepard?

  They're like, oh, the, the one man's much older than his husband.

• 1:30:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:30:55Dax Shepard?

  Um, but he looks kinda cool. He looks artistic, he's got tattoos, he must be an architect. This is what they thought.

• 1:31:03Speaker 01

  Now, you think that when people look at tattoos, they think artsy.

• 1:31:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think if you're seeing someone who is heavily tattooed and successful.

• 1:31:12Speaker 01

  Well, how do they know that?

• 1:31:14Dax Shepard?

  Cause we have a guide.

• 1:31:16Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:31:17Dax Shepard?

  I mean, that's a giveaway.

• 1:31:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:31:20Dax Shepard?

  Right?

• 1:31:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:21Dax Shepard?

  I'm just being honest.

• 1:31:22Speaker 01

  But maybe, but maybe your hot husband.

• 1:31:24Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great. So yes, we're just going with like most people think. So you see an older dude with a younger man, they have a guy.

• 1:31:30Speaker 01

  Got it, okay. And he has tattoos.

• 1:31:32Dax Shepard?

  Ninety plus percent of people are gonna go, oh, the older dude's got some money.

• 1:31:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:31:37Dax Shepard?

  Oh wow, he's made some money, but he's also heavily tattooed. So he's either owns a restaurant?

• 1:31:42Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:31:43Dax Shepard?

  You go to a-

• 1:31:43Speaker 01

  This is very LA.

• 1:31:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, most likely, yeah, if you were in the Midwest and I saw a dude heavily tattooed and I knew he was rich, I'd go, oh, he owns a tool and die shop. Like this is-

• 1:31:53Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:31:54Dax Shepard?

  What environment could he make a ton of money, but also-

• 1:31:57Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:31:57Dax Shepard?

  Look like a fucking junkie.

• 1:32:00Speaker 01

  Scary guy.

• 1:32:01Dax Shepard?

  Yes. Okay, so that was last year's scenario that we both thought was most likely. People definitely thought it was an architect.

• 1:32:08Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:32:08Dax Shepard?

  And this was my boy toy.

• 1:32:10Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:32:11Dax Shepard?

  But now it's a little bigger this year. So now I'm not sure what they think. And I didn't have as clear of a conclusion of what people thought. Other than people, again, were very excited and happy that we had a family. That seems to be consistent.

• 1:32:25Speaker 01

  That's nice.

• 1:32:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:27Speaker 01

  It, it, families are great.

• 1:32:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:28Speaker 01

  What do you think about the fact, did you notice that during this whole time we've been talking? Um, I've picked at my fingernail.

• 1:32:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:37Speaker 01

  And now I have this piece and I've been putting it places.

• 1:32:39Dax Shepard?

  Different places in hopes that you'll remember it. I see you grab your phone, which is disheartening, so I'm like, oh, she's checking her phone in the middle of this story about me being an architect.

• 1:32:48Speaker 01

  I wasn't.

• 1:32:49Dax Shepard?

  And now you're, yeah, you should eat it, just eat it.

• 1:32:52Speaker 01

  No, I've never eaten it.

• 1:32:54Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you dropped it between your legs.

• 1:32:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was worried about that.

• 1:32:58Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah. Well, there it is. One of our guests will be sitting there and be like, God, I just keep stabbing my butt cheek.

• 1:33:03Speaker 01

  See, some people are real, will be like so disgusted by what just happened.

• 1:33:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, well, remember you would put your feet on the couch and people would really lose their marbles.

• 1:33:12Speaker 01

  And I am not that grossed out by nails. And I guess I'm not that grossed out by hair. I guess I'm like very chill.

• 1:33:22Dax Shepard?

  You are. You're afraid of death, but everything before then, you're kind of fine with.

• 1:33:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:33:27Dax Shepard?

  Pooty nails.

• 1:33:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, actually, I'm proud of myself for that.

• 1:33:31Dax Shepard?

  You're cool.

• 1:33:33Speaker 01

  You're cool.

• 1:33:33Dax Shepard?

  You're cool.

• 1:33:35Speaker 01

  Can't dance, but you're cool.

• 1:33:36Dax Shepard?

  Can't dance to save your life, but if you shave that side, you'll pull it off.

• 1:33:39Speaker 01

  I was a good dancer.

• 1:33:40Dax Shepard?

  Well, no one will ever know.

• 1:33:42Speaker 01

  I had a, I danced well with this one person. We danced a lot together. Okay. Oh, I pulled this up to show you something and now I have forgotten. Phew, I'm all over the, well, we just did Armchair Anonymous. This is what happens. Our brain gets a little jammy. That's an Easter egg.

• 1:34:02Dax Shepard?

  That's an Easter egg for?

• 1:34:03Speaker 01

  No, don't say that. Okay.

• 1:34:07Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

• 1:34:14Dax Shepard?

  We get support from Skims. Okay, I have a confession. I genuinely love matching pajamas. It's the best part of Christmas morning, really. Everyone in the same matching set, looking ridiculously cute in front of the tree.

• 1:34:28Speaker 01

  I love matching pajamas. I'm literally gonna be in coordinating sets with all my friends this holiday season. Because I got them, spoiler to my friends who are listening, the same Skims pajama set I've been living in. They are so soft and cozy and they look cute. So you can leave the house and go get a late night hot chocolate and be cozy.

• 1:34:49Dax Shepard?

  It's so great how Skims has sets for everyone too. Women's, men's, kids, even your pets. So nobody in your life has to be left out this year.

• 1:34:59Speaker 01

  I have a bunch of different pajama sets. One of my favorite is the organic cotton sleep long sleeve set.

• 1:35:06Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:35:06Speaker 01

  It is so comfortable, very chic, too. The top is a button down, but very, very soft, easy to sleep in. But as I said before, you can multi-purpose this and look super cute.

• 1:35:19Dax Shepard?

  Hot chocolate runs. It's like the pajamas we grew up in, except without the scratchy polyester that made opening presents feel more like a hot yoga class that nobody signed up for.

• 1:35:28Speaker 01

  All the nostalgia, none of the discomfort. Shop my favorite loungewear and pajamas at skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you. Select podcasts in the survey and be sure to select Armchair Expert in the dropdown menu that follows. If you're looking for the perfect gifts for everyone on your list, the Skims Holiday Shop is now open at skims.com.

• 1:35:54Speaker 01

  This is for Rebecca Lemov. And this was interesting because this was brainwashing and eesh, scary.

• 1:36:03Dax Shepard?

  You think you've been brainwashed?

• 1:36:05Speaker 01

  By you? Oh, you tried. You tried to brainwash me into thinking dancing was the best quality.

• 1:36:13Dax Shepard?

  I just think it's a very hot, attractive quality.

• 1:36:15Speaker 01

  It's hot and it's attractive.

• 1:36:16Dax Shepard?

  It turns things sexual. I guess that's really what I'm saying. It breaks through, like you could meet a dude and you may like, oh, he's good, but I'm in the friend zone. You could see him dancing, you go, you know what? It's definitely an inroot.

• 1:36:29Speaker 01

  You're right about that.

• 1:36:30Dax Shepard?

  Thank you.

• 1:36:30Speaker 01

  But it's not going, well, it's not a bad dancer if I like them.

• 1:36:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's fine.

• 1:36:36Speaker 01

  Is not a deterrent. But I guess you're right. A good dancer can be an additive.

• 1:36:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it could change the dynamic of everything.

• 1:36:43Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 1:36:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:44Speaker 01

  Like if.

• 1:36:45Dax Shepard?

  That's been my experience, which is I think some girls were like, whatever. I don't know, he's loud. And then on the dance floor, like, oh, this is interesting. He is.

• 1:36:55Speaker 01

  Loud.

• 1:36:56Dax Shepard?

  Very loud, louder.

• 1:36:57Speaker 01

  As a dancer.

• 1:36:59Dax Shepard?

  Even louder.

• 1:37:00Speaker 01

  Okay. Population decline. You said California's population is declining and everyone else's is on the rise. Now I'm going to read you the list here.

• 1:37:10Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:37:11Speaker 01

  This is most decline.

• 1:37:15Speaker 01

  All the way up to most pro- most growth.

• 1:37:19Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:37:20Speaker 01

  Okay, so the most-

• 1:37:22Dax Shepard?

  You do like the top 10 and bottom 10?

• 1:37:24Speaker 01

  Sure, but I'm not gonna count.

• 1:37:26Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:37:26Speaker 01

  I'm gonna read them all. Um.

• 1:37:27Dax Shepard?

  All 50 states?

• 1:37:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, so the most, the most decline, New York.

• 1:37:33Dax Shepard?

  They're hemorrhaging people.

• 1:37:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, .91% population change downward.

• 1:37:38Dax Shepard?

  Point 19?

• 1:37:39Speaker 01

  91.

• 1:37:40Dax Shepard?

  Oh, 91, almost 10% of the state left? Or 9.1 out of 100,000 people?

• 1:37:45Speaker 01

  .91%.

• 1:37:48Dax Shepard?

  Oh, .91, sorry.

• 1:37:50Speaker 01

  Change in population.

• 1:37:51Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so almost fell a percent.

• 1:37:53Speaker 01

  Okay, New York, so that's the worst, then Illinois, yikes.

• 1:37:57Dax Shepard?

  Sorry, Rob.

• 1:37:57Speaker 01

  Cause Rob left.

• 1:37:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's-

• 1:37:59Speaker 01

  True. You're part of it.

• 1:38:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it makes it look good.

• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  New York, Illinois, Louisiana, West Virginia, Hawaii, Oregon, Mississippi, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, California. So already, there's a lot worse off than us, I'm just gonna say that.

• 1:38:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:16Speaker 01

  Then Maryland, New Mexico, Massachusetts, Alaska, New Jersey, Ohio, Kansas, Michigan, Vermont, Connecticut, Iowa, Minnesota-

• 1:38:27Dax Shepard?

  All losing people.

• 1:38:29Speaker 01

  Uh oh, fuck, Michigan is the last loser.

• 1:38:31Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:38:32Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:38:32Dax Shepard?

  Last of the losers.

• 1:38:33Speaker 01

  Last of the losers is Michigan.

• 1:38:35Dax Shepard?

  Switches first place in losers.

• 1:38:36Speaker 01

  That's right, .03%.

• 1:38:38Dax Shepard?

  Oh, that's nothing.

• 1:38:39Speaker 01

  Population decline.

• 1:38:39Dax Shepard?

  That could be a miscount.

• 1:38:40Speaker 01

  No, it wasn't, they, this is on World Population Review.

• 1:38:44Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:38:45Speaker 01

  Very trusted brand.

• 1:38:46Dax Shepard?

  I'm always on there.

• 1:38:47Speaker 01

  Now, we're gonna go neutral up, okay? So Vermont has .1% growth.

• 1:38:55Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:38:55Speaker 01

  In population change.

• 1:38:57Dax Shepard?

  Could be a statistical error, go ahead.

• 1:38:58Speaker 01

  Connecticut, Iowa, Minnesota, Kentucky, Missouri, North Dakota, Wisconsin, Nebraska, Indiana, Virginia, Wyoming, Alabama, Colorado, New Hampshire-

• 1:39:11Speaker 01

  Washington, Maine, Oklahoma, Nevada, Georgia, ding ding ding, Tennessee, ding ding ding, Utah, North Carolina, Arizona, Arkansas, Delaware, Montana, South Dakota, Texas, South Carolina, Idaho, Florida.

• 1:39:27Dax Shepard?

  Man, I would have definitely thought Tennessee and Texas were higher on that list.

• 1:39:32Speaker 01

  Tennessee's pretty high.

• 1:39:34Dax Shepard?

  How many, what's the percentage change?

• 1:39:36Speaker 01

  It's the 12th.

• 1:39:37Dax Shepard?

  But what percentage?

• 1:39:39Speaker 01

  1.19%.

• 1:39:40Dax Shepard?

  1.1? So that's more, that's higher than the Biggest Loser.

• 1:39:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:45Dax Shepard?

  The Biggest Loser's 0.9.

• 1:39:46Speaker 01

  Florida is 1.91% population growth.

• 1:39:50Dax Shepard?

  2% a year. Wow.

• 1:39:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I just, as a Californian.

• 1:39:56Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:39:57Speaker 01

  People are worse off than us.

• 1:40:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:00Speaker 01

  And I just want that to be known.

• 1:40:02Dax Shepard?

  Okay. You want more people to come, or you want it to stay the same, or you want people to leave?

• 1:40:07Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't have an opinion on that.

• 1:40:09Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:40:09Speaker 01

  Okay. Infanticide among Inuits. Until recently, certain Eskimo groups were reported to practice female infanticide, in the belief that the time spent suckling a girl would delay the mother's next opportunity to bear a son, males being preferred to females because of their future role as providers in a hunting economy. From sex ratios and census data, rates of female infanticide of up to 66% for some groups have been inferred, leading some-

• 1:40:40Dax Shepard?

  66%?

• 1:40:41Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Leading some ethnographers to conclude that these groups were headed for extinction. Eskimo beliefs regarding the effects of infanticide on fertility, however, are in accord with the results of research on the relation of fertility and lactation. The cessation of lactation following infanticide would significantly shorten the expected interval until the next birth. Given this fact and available field data regarding the parameters of Eskimo population growth, the present computer simulation indicates that Eskimo populations could sustain a rate of 30% female infanticide and still survive.

• 1:41:16Dax Shepard?

  You reading that just reminded me I have something much better. That is what I screen grabbed to tell you.

• 1:41:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:41:22Dax Shepard?

  Can I interrupt this portion?

• 1:41:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was it.

• 1:41:25Dax Shepard?

  That was it?

• 1:41:26Speaker 01

  I mean, it's sad.

• 1:41:27Dax Shepard?

  Okay, this is, this is really something. And I probably need to send these to Rob right now so he can get them up on the TV.

• 1:41:34Speaker 01

  Oh, great.

• 1:41:34Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so for the listener who can't see this, it's a picture of a very white woman on the left and a very, very black woman on the right. Thirty-six-year-old German model, who now identifies as black, plans to move to Africa after taking melatonin injections.

• 1:41:53Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:41:53Dax Shepard?

  She and her partner are now preparing for the move with the influencer stating, "My husband and I had already planned to emigrate a few years ago, but then the pandemic hit. It hasn't been easy choosing where in Africa, but we currently have Kenya and Namibia on our shortlist." Now scroll through the other pictures there, Rob.

• 1:42:15Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:42:17Dax Shepard?

  This is, uh...

• 1:42:20Speaker 01

  This is...

• 1:42:20Dax Shepard?

  Wait till you see the one in her and her tribe outfit.

• 1:42:24Speaker 01

  Are we sure it's her? It is her.

• 1:42:26Dax Shepard?

  It is her. And she's dressed like she's a Messiah or something. Um, this is nuts. Do you think this will be like, will people sign on to this? Yeah, so that's, there's a peptide you can take.

• 1:42:40Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:42:41Dax Shepard?

  Bodybuilders use it to be darker, so they don't have to use as much self-tanner. And apparently she's just on an elephant dose of it. And she is black and identifies as black.

• 1:42:52Speaker 01

  Skin, um...

• 1:42:54Dax Shepard?

  You can't identify as black.

• 1:42:56Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:42:56Dax Shepard?

  Right?

• 1:42:57Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:42:58Dax Shepard?

  Do you think it, is there any conceivable way in the future this will be a very protected group?

• 1:43:03Speaker 01

  No, because this isn't fair to black in a marginal, a very marginalized group.

• 1:43:09Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:43:10Speaker 01

  I mean, unless, unless, okay, look, here's how it, this is the only way it could happen.

• 1:43:15Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:43:16Speaker 01

  If the black community was like, great.

• 1:43:19Dax Shepard?

  We love it. Send us your whites.

• 1:43:21Speaker 01

  Then?

• 1:43:22Dax Shepard?

  Send us your previous whites.

• 1:43:24Speaker 01

  I guess we can't have a problem with it.

• 1:43:26Dax Shepard?

  I'm actually, I'm more okay with her just dying herself black.

• 1:43:31Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:43:32Dax Shepard?

  Over saying, "I identify as black." My issue is the identify as black.

• 1:43:37Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:43:38Dax Shepard?

  Not, I don't really care if you take too many peptides.

• 1:43:40Speaker 01

  Okay, what did exactly, what did she say? Hold on, let's go back real quick.

• 1:43:44Dax Shepard?

  Okay. She said.

• 1:43:46Speaker 01

  Who now identifies as black.

• 1:43:49Dax Shepard?

  Oh. Has announced plans to move to Africa after injecting melatonin, a synthetic or melatonin, yeah, a synthetic hormone to darken her skin. But yeah, I guess people probably, there's no way people who can't see this are imagining her skin is as dark as it is. And she is as white as it gets on the left. This is nuts, right?

• 1:44:11Speaker 01

  This is.

• 1:44:12Dax Shepard?

  This is like something you used to see in the old days in the Inquirer. This happened, remember with the woman that was somehow became president of the NAACP? And she said she identified as black.

• 1:44:22Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. It is called melanatin. It is peptide hormone stimulating. Like.

• 1:44:32Dax Shepard?

  Go ahead.

• 1:44:33Speaker 01

  I mean, no. But then is it okay to make me white? I mean, I don't want to anymore.

• 1:44:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:41Speaker 01

  But like.

• 1:44:42Dax Shepard?

  I don't care.

• 1:44:43Speaker 01

  Then gets into that where to me that's way worse. What she's doing is way worse than.

• 1:44:49Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:44:49Speaker 01

  The other way around.

• 1:44:51Dax Shepard?

  Yes, because.

• 1:44:53Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:44:54Dax Shepard?

  I would say imply, yes, she also has ginormous augmented breasts, which is interesting. If you've not experienced racism your entire life.

• 1:45:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:05Dax Shepard?

  Um, to say you identify as black.

• 1:45:08Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:45:09Dax Shepard?

  Is, how could you?

• 1:45:11Speaker 01

  It's unacceptable.

• 1:45:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:14Speaker 01

  It's unacceptable.

• 1:45:15Dax Shepard?

  I just think it's white entitlement to the nth degree.

• 1:45:18Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:45:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Like as Joy would say, the caucasity.

• 1:45:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:22Dax Shepard?

  The caucasity to say you identify as black. Oh, I can't believe I haven't sent this to.

• 1:45:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, you have to.

• 1:45:27Dax Shepard?

  I gotta send all this right now.

• 1:45:29Speaker 01

  You know what's kind of, obviously, I think this is atrocious. This is a no-no. This is bad, bad, bad. But what you just said, like, if you are a white person, you can't say you identify as black because you've never experienced what it's like to be a black person in this country. I will say, she's not going to be a black person in this country. She's going to be a black person in Africa. Where racism is gonna be not look.

• 1:45:55Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, that's fair. And that's kind of, that was Kirby's kind of, what she illuminated for us was like, it's different in England because people chose to come there. The whole dynamic is completely different.

• 1:46:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:09Dax Shepard?

  And yeah, I don't know. I guess if you, I mean, now we're trying to pick maybe what's the best place to do this in.

• 1:46:15Speaker 01

  I mean, this is insane. Like, it's insane to do. It's entitled. It's wild.

• 1:46:23Dax Shepard?

  I guess also, who cares? A little bit of who cares? Like, she wants to, she's on some weird journey.

• 1:46:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:29Dax Shepard?

  She's not hurting anyone. I guess I shouldn't care.

• 1:46:34Speaker 01

  Well, I care on behalf of a marginalized group that has experienced a lot of hardship and racism.

• 1:46:41Dax Shepard?

  They're not marginalized. And she's from Germany.

• 1:46:45Speaker 01

  I don't know. I hate her.

• 1:46:47Dax Shepard?

  Complicates everything. Okay, you can resume your facts.

• 1:46:50Speaker 01

  Also, I don't, as someone with brown skin, God, I mean, this is like, what are we doing? What are we doing with peptides?

• 1:46:59Dax Shepard?

  What if a white person, me, and I said, I'm Indian.

• 1:47:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:06Dax Shepard?

  I want to identify as Indian, and I took this peptide?

• 1:47:10Speaker 01

  Like.

• 1:47:10Dax Shepard?

  What would you, what would your action?

• 1:47:12Speaker 01

  But you're not. Like.

• 1:47:13Dax Shepard?

  But I identify as.

• 1:47:17Speaker 01

  Stop.

• 1:47:17Dax Shepard?

  Ever since I went to India, I realized, I'm Indian.

• 1:47:21Speaker 01

  Okay, I guess I'd say, what, what about India? What makes you feel Indian?

• 1:47:26Dax Shepard?

  I like the food.

• 1:47:27Speaker 01

  Okay, so you like Indian food?

• 1:47:29Dax Shepard?

  And it feels like I was designed to eat that food. It made me think, huh, that's weird. Why does this food sit so right? It's like I've evolved to eat this food.

• 1:47:38Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't.

• 1:47:39Dax Shepard?

  And then I realized, oh, my God, I know what's going on. I'm from Bombay.

• 1:47:43Speaker 01

  Okay, it's actually Mumbai.

• 1:47:44Dax Shepard?

  But not when I left. It was still Bombay.

• 1:47:47Speaker 01

  You, cuz you didn't leave cuz you are never.

• 1:47:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I was there. Clearly, I was there.

• 1:47:52Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. Also, you think what, what do you think happened? Do you think that you were born there?

• 1:47:59Dax Shepard?

  I was assigned the wrong ethnicity at birth. I was assigned Caucasoid, but I'm Indian.

• 1:48:05Speaker 01

  And were you born there?

• 1:48:05Dax Shepard?

  I'm reincarnated. I'm a Buddhist too. I have a lot.

• 1:48:09Speaker 01

  You can be Buddhist.

• 1:48:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:12Speaker 01

  I'm fine with that.

• 1:48:13Dax Shepard?

  But I was an Indian Buddhist and I was reincarnated in this stupid Caucasoid body. I'm Indian and the food tastes so good to me.

• 1:48:22Speaker 01

  So you might.

• 1:48:23Dax Shepard?

  And I'm of a high caste. I found out.

• 1:48:26Speaker 01

  From?

• 1:48:27Dax Shepard?

  Because of course I am.

• 1:48:29Speaker 01

  Okay, so you might have been, you might have been an Indian Buddhist. And you have been reincarnated. I can't deny that. But you have been reincarnated as an American white person.

• 1:48:43Dax Shepard?

  The oppressor? No. Maybe you wanna be the oppressor, but I don't.

• 1:48:47Speaker 01

  I am the oppressor. I dropped my.

• 1:48:50Dax Shepard?

  Your nail again? I can't believe you even found it. I thought it was lost to the.

• 1:48:54Speaker 01

  I feel complicated about melatonin or melanatin, okay? And I feel, we were talking about this yesterday, like

• 1:49:08Speaker 01

  peptides are a lot of the rage right now in LA.

• 1:49:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:15Speaker 01

  And there, like, there is the real chance that you can just change your whole being with them.

• 1:49:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:23Speaker 01

  I

• 1:49:26Speaker 01

  am very skeptical of it. And now with this, this makes me like even more.

• 1:49:35Dax Shepard?

  But this, hey, this is the most extreme case imaginable.

• 1:49:39Speaker 01

  But it's a real peptide.

• 1:49:40Dax Shepard?

  I love peptides.

• 1:49:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:42Dax Shepard?

  And I feel like this is a little reminiscent of your initial.

• 1:49:46Speaker 01

  Ozempic.

• 1:49:47Dax Shepard?

  Ozempic issue, which is like.

• 1:49:51Dax Shepard?

  Why not? Like, I don't, who cares?

• 1:49:53Speaker 01

  Like, no, like, no, I don't think it's fair for you to decide tomorrow to take melatonin, melanatin, and then become my color. Like, I don't think that's...

• 1:50:06Dax Shepard?

  Well, that's a very extreme version of peptides. But do I deserve to take a peptide that elevates my HGH levels naturally? Well, it's not naturally, I'm taking a peptide.

• 1:50:17Speaker 01

  Nothing's natural.

• 1:50:18Dax Shepard?

  But my thyroid, my pituitary gland's making the HGH. It's not exogenous HGH. What's the problem?

• 1:50:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just think, I just think all of this is, is a really, really, really intense obsession with anti-aging and optimization that I find overall, just like, not you, this, this overall conversation about it, obsessive and very the substance.

• 1:50:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but let's take me as an example.

• 1:50:53Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:50:54Dax Shepard?

  Like, I have a crazy workout regimen and a diet regimen, and I'm gonna take anything that doesn't have bad side effects that's gonna help me in that pursuit.

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  In the pursuit of what?

• 1:51:06Dax Shepard?

  Being as physically fit as I possibly can.

• 1:51:09Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:51:09Dax Shepard?

  And, and I can afford to.

• 1:51:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:13Dax Shepard?

  Right? Now, is it fair or not that I can, other people, that's a side conversation? But just assume everyone has access to everything.

• 1:51:21Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:51:21Dax Shepard?

  And I'm 50. I just was at COTA, and I rode a motorcycle all day long on the racetrack.

• 1:51:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:28Dax Shepard?

  And I felt great, and I was able to do that, and primarily because of my fitness.

• 1:51:33Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:51:33Dax Shepard?

  A lot of the 50-year-old dudes are not doing the sessions like I can do.

• 1:51:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:37Dax Shepard?

  So I am, my life is really good, because I can still pursue my hobbies with vigor, and it makes my life better. And that is solely an outcome of how I've taken care of my body. And this is yet another tool, like eating well is, or like that protein is, or vitamins are. It's just another thing, it's a very arbitrary line between should I take vitamin D or take a peptide?

• 1:52:04Speaker 01

  Well, there's, there is a difference in that a lot of these peptides aren't, like, approved.

• 1:52:12Speaker 01

  I looked on the website yesterday of one and it, they all say not for human use.

• 1:52:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so that, I go to a doctor. So, yes, without a prescription, you're gonna get on a website and it's gonna say for animal use or something. I, I have no claim on that, but I'm, I'm talking about going to a doctor and having a real, the human version of a peptide prescribed to you.

• 1:52:34Speaker 01

  I guess if, if a doctor is prescribing it.

• 1:52:38Dax Shepard?

  And I get blood panels every two and a half, three months that monitors everything.

• 1:52:43Speaker 01

  Look, I don't, I don't think it's like amoral. I, I think it's, I, I think society is, has become really obsessed with anti-aging.

• 1:52:59Dax Shepard?

  You think more than?

• 1:53:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is extr- I mean, to me, injecting yourself with a massive concoction of things and you're, you're, you're tweaking to opti- like make you look thirty for the rest of your life, to me is literally the substance, like that movie.

• 1:53:15Dax Shepard?

  Yep, well, but the substance was robbing your

• 1:53:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:20Dax Shepard?

  futures, your, your current self. So there was a heavy price to pay.

• 1:53:25Speaker 01

  There was a price to pay.

• 1:53:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and I just, I'm not seeing the price to pay other than the financial.

• 1:53:30Speaker 01

  We don't know.

• 1:53:31Dax Shepard?

  Well, no, anything I'm on has been in the market and being, has been used on HIV patients for thirty-five, forty years.

• 1:53:39Speaker 01

  I know, but you don't have HIV.

• 1:53:41Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 1:53:41Speaker 01

  So you don't know technically, I mean, there's a reason these things aren't FDA approved. They have not been tested for long enough.

• 1:53:50Dax Shepard?

  No, no, all of these are FDA approved if you get a prescription and they're also a category that can be used in lab testing, which is what you're seeing on the website. But no, all of, any peptide I am on from a doctor has been FDA approved and used in medical trials, one in this case I'm referencing as HIV patients.

• 1:54:13Speaker 01

  Got it. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I, um, I think it's fine, obviously. I'm, I have no say in what other people do, but it is, it does, it sprouts all this interesting, all these interesting questions because I don't. Want to.

• 1:54:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:33Speaker 01

  But then I think, but if literally everyone else is doing this.

• 1:54:38Dax Shepard?

  You feel pressured to do it.

• 1:54:39Speaker 01

  I, it's not even that I feel pressured. It's like, I'm gonna look so old.

• 1:54:45Speaker 01

  Or I'm gonna look so, even though I'm actually aging naturally.

• 1:54:50Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:54:50Speaker 01

  I'm gonna be left behind.

• 1:54:52Dax Shepard?

  Well, you're aging naturally, but with botox and injections.

• 1:54:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:58Dax Shepard?

  It's an identical argument for someone who's like looking at you and going like, well, fuck, do I have to get botox? Cause everyone's doing it and I don't want to get botox, but Monica's getting it and now I have to. So it's like, that's the same argument as this peptide thing to me.

• 1:55:12Speaker 01

  It is. I mean, that's why I did that.

• 1:55:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:15Speaker 01

  Cause over time, it's like, oh my God, everyone is doing this.

• 1:55:19Dax Shepard?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:55:20Speaker 01

  And I guess if everyone is, has a face that looks wrinkle free and I'm the only one rocking around with wrinkles. That's gonna look insane now, when it used to look normal.

• 1:55:34Dax Shepard?

  Well, this is an interesting side thing that will take too long, but I more think about, yes, I've talked about this with Eric and stuff. It's like, well, everyone's gonna be on trisepotide or some GLP one at some point. It's gonna be over the counter.

• 1:55:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:46Dax Shepard?

  Let's just say everyone's gonna be on it's four cents. Everyone's skinny. Let's just say everyone's skinny.

• 1:55:51Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:55:52Dax Shepard?

  But what I think is like, well, in a world where everyone's skinny, people that aren't skinny will be very interesting and exciting. So if no one has wrinkles, it's all interesting. You think of just, if everything's neutralized.

• 1:56:03Speaker 01

  But it, I guess that's my whole, I'm like, we're becoming one thing.

• 1:56:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:08Speaker 01

  And that is boring.

• 1:56:10Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh. But.

• 1:56:11Speaker 01

  And I don't.

• 1:56:12Dax Shepard?

  Also we're not.

• 1:56:13Speaker 01

  But we kind of are. It's like, if everyone can get the exact same coloring.

• 1:56:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:19Speaker 01

  If you can change your features, if you can make yourself not age, if you can be all one body weight, like.

• 1:56:28Speaker 01

  That is so boring, really, I think, for me, anyway.

• 1:56:32Dax Shepard?

  Or you might, silver lining, it might actually be, well, then all you'd be deciding on is personality. Everything else has been neutralized.

• 1:56:42Speaker 01

  I guess, I mean.

• 1:56:43Dax Shepard?

  I mean, that, doesn't that sound like utopia a little bit?

• 1:56:45Speaker 01

  No. Yeah, sure, sure.

• 1:56:48Dax Shepard?

  I don't know, it's just, it's, it's interesting, it's fascinating. If mine was, I don't think I'd look any hotter. I don't think my face looks better. I don't, there's like, nothing I'm taking to look, to look better.

• 1:57:01Speaker 01

  But there are peptides like that. There are.

• 1:57:04Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I want them. What are they? Let me see, ask my doctor if I can be on those. Um, but yeah, I'm, I'm up for everything that, that makes me feel better and doesn't have a big cost associated with it.

• 1:57:18Speaker 01

  You know what's wild is the other day, a old video popped up on Instagram of, do you remember from the Hills, Heidi, Heidi and Spencer?

• 1:57:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, oh, yeah.

• 1:57:29Speaker 01

  And do you remember she got so much?

• 1:57:33Dax Shepard?

  Surgery?

• 1:57:34Speaker 01

  Plastic surgery.

• 1:57:35Dax Shepard?

  I didn't know that, but?

• 1:57:36Speaker 01

  It was a huge thing. She like, got a ton of plastic surgery. They did this episode where she was basically like, talking to her mom and her sister.

• 1:57:44Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:57:45Speaker 01

  Her mom and her sister were bawling.

• 1:57:47Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:57:47Speaker 01

  And she was explaining everything she did and she was like, talking kind of weird and like, it was sad. Like, it was, it was presented as, oh my god, cautionary tale?

• 1:57:58Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:57:59Speaker 01

  And this popped up and I was like, that is not how I remember it. She looks kind of like so many people now.

• 1:58:08Dax Shepard?

  Oh, nowadays.

• 1:58:09Speaker 01

  Like, her, her, in quotes, like, crazy things she did.

• 1:58:14Dax Shepard?

  This is kind of standard.

• 1:58:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:58:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, well, I will say when I'm in Beverly Hills, I will pass like, six or seven women in a row that have identical shaped faces.

• 1:58:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:24Dax Shepard?

  Cause the filler ends up making every face.

• 1:58:26Speaker 01

  And they get nose jobs, that their noses are the same and lip injections that make their lips all the same.

• 1:58:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:34Dax Shepard?

  I just don't care.

• 1:58:35Speaker 01

  I mean, I am gonna get chin filler again.

• 1:58:37Dax Shepard?

  Right, right, yeah. I just don't care.

• 1:58:39Speaker 01

  About what?

• 1:58:40Dax Shepard?

  That people do that stuff. It doesn't bother me.

• 1:58:43Speaker 01

  I don't care individually. Like, I don't care that that person in Beverly Hills is doing it. I, but societally, I start to like pull back and I think, oh, my God, we really are shifting into this other realm, and that is where I start.

• 1:58:59Dax Shepard?

  I just think people have always been doing everything they could. So they wore perfume when that was invented, and they got hairbrushes to keep their hair pretty, and they got combs, and they got hairstyles, and everything that was ever at your disposal.

• 1:59:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:11Dax Shepard?

  People have been pursuing looking the best they can.

• 1:59:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:15Dax Shepard?

  And we're just, there's more and more products in the mix.

• 1:59:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:20Dax Shepard?

  But I do think people have been trying to look their very best for, I don't think that's new.

• 1:59:25Speaker 01

  I haven't brushed my hair in like four days, so.

• 1:59:27Dax Shepard?

  Well, we pick what things, but I know me too. I like, my jeans are dirty, but I need to work out.

• 1:59:33Speaker 01

  Anyway, that's all very interesting.

• 1:59:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:36Speaker 01

  Okay, that's it.

• 1:59:38Dax Shepard?

  All right, love you.