Nancy Segal (on twins)

Nancy Segal (Deliberately Divided: Inside the Controversial Study of Twins and Triplets Adopted Apart) is an evolutionary psychologist, behavioral geneticist, and author. Nancy joins the Armchair Expert to discuss whether there’s anything predictable about a twin who comes out first, why in twin studies differences are not deficits, and her work with the Minnesota Study of Twins Reared Apart. Nancy and Dax talk about the unexpected reason identical twins are more alike that any other pair of people, the concept of inclusive fitness to explain differential genetic behavior, and why doppelgängers can be an effective test for criticism of twin research. Nancy explains her argument that twins fundamentally challenge how we think the world works, the remarkable fact that children born on the same day to two sets of identical twins are genetic fraternal twins, and why only identical twins raised apart are able to see themselves in a life unlived. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ http://www.wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dax Shepard?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dax Shepard and I'm joined by the Duchess of Duluth.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 0:07Dax Shepard?

  Hey.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Hey.

• 0:09Dax Shepard?

  Do you feel more sinister when you're taking on that moniker?

• 0:12Speaker 01

  Duchess, no, I feel responsible.

• 0:14Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you do?

• 0:14Speaker 01

  I feel the weight of royalty on my shoulders.

• 0:17Dax Shepard?

  Oh, it does. Heavy wears, bears the crown.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  That's right. Heavy wears, heavy's the head that wears the crown.

• 0:23Dax Shepard?

  Heavy's the head. Nancy Segal is an evolutionary psychologist and a behavioral geneticist, but most importantly, long time coming.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 0:34Dax Shepard?

  She specializes in studying twins.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Mary-Kate and Ashley types.

• 0:39Dax Shepard?

  I feel like twins is almost tied with sim for us.

• 0:44Speaker 01

  As much as we talk about it.

• 0:46Dax Shepard?

  As much as we've needed an expert but didn't have one for a long, long time.

• 0:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, true.

• 0:50Dax Shepard?

  I mean, but this is long overdue. She has several incredible books on the topic. Entwined Lives, Born Together, Reared Apart, Accidental Brothers, Deliberately Divided. So this one is awesome.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  As we all know, twins is really the only way we can learn about human behavior.

• 1:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, well, and especially if they're, ideally if they're separated.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  So we get to learn a lot.

• 1:16Dax Shepard?

  But yes, it's incredible. I'm so glad we got to talk to Nancy. So please enjoy Nancy Segal. We get support from Quince.

• 1:25Speaker 01

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• 1:45Dax Shepard?

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• 2:00Speaker 01

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• 2:11Dax Shepard?

  Well, I'm gonna tell you this, it just got chilly for the first time this year in California. And I'm so excited and I'm wearing my Quince cashmere right now.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  It's great.

• 2:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and I am going to gift this to some of my friends. I hope they're not listening.

• 2:24Speaker 01

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• 2:46Dax Shepard?

  Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. This episode is supported by Helix.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Okay, can we talk about how November is basically survival mode? Between the holidays, the travel, the hosting, the cooking, the everything. Sleep is the one thing keeping me from completely unraveling.

• 3:21Dax Shepard?

  It really is the foundation. And I think people underestimate how much a bad mattress is quietly ruining their day. You wake up stiff, your back's angry, you're already behind before your feet hit the floor.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  That was me before Helix. I took their sleep quiz, which is so fast. It took me like two minutes and they matched me to a mattress that actually fits how I sleep. Not a guess, not a firm or soft coin flip. It's a real match. I have a midnight mattress and I really like it. I was noticing it because I actually had to sleep in one of my other beds recently.

• 3:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  That doesn't have a Helix mattress on it and I really could tell a big difference in my sleep.

• 3:55Dax Shepard?

  Temperature was all over the map.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  It was a mess. I need a new one.

• 3:58Dax Shepard?

  Look, they've got over 20 mattress models. So whether you sleep hot, need extra back support, or you've got a partner who moves around all night, there's one built for you. Plus free shipping and a 365-night Happy with Helix guarantee. That's a full year to decide.

• 4:13Speaker 01

  Helix has been named the most awarded mattress by Forbes, Wired, and more. So it's not just us being enthusiastic, the experts agree.

• 4:20Dax Shepard?

  Right now Helix is running their Black Friday sale with up to 30% off. Go to helixsleep.com/armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. That's helixsleep.com/armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. helixsleep.com/armchair.

• 4:57Dax Shepard?

  Were you offered all the mini beverages?

• 4:59Speaker 02

  I just wanted water, but I was offered everything.

• 5:01Dax Shepard?

  Okay, guys.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  I don't take sparkling because I'll burp during the talk. I love that. And coffee, I don't do well with caffeine, so.

• 5:10Dax Shepard?

  You don't?

• 5:11Speaker 02

  No, I don't.

• 5:12Dax Shepard?

  Okay, already we're in your research, weirdly.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  Oh, we are.

• 5:18Dax Shepard?

  Yes, because I'm a humongous consumer of caffeine. And I was delighted when I took a 23andMe test to see it say, "You're someone who would like caffeine more." And I felt the absolution of guilt.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I don't know if that would actually absolve you, but at least it would help you understand.

• 5:37Dax Shepard?

  There you go. Yeah, I suppose if you have a genetic marker for road rage, it doesn't get you out of your responsibility.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  No, it doesn't. But keep in mind that genes are just predisposed, they don't determine.

• 5:47Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 5:48Speaker 02

  Very important.

• 5:49Dax Shepard?

  Can we start in Boston?

• 5:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:51Dax Shepard?

  Place of your birth?

• 5:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, what kind of child did you have in Boston?

• 5:55Speaker 02

  I was born in the Boston Lying In Hospital. And I was born six weeks early. You know, I'm a twin. And I have a fraternal twin sister. And I nudged my way out first.

• 6:05Dax Shepard?

  You did.

• 6:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, naturally. And I was only three pounds 11 ounces. And she was four pounds seven. We moved to New York City when I was five.

• 6:14Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 6:14Speaker 02

  To a building with lots and lots of friends. We lived near the school.

• 6:17Dax Shepard?

  What did mom and dad do?

• 6:19Speaker 02

  My dad was a lawyer. And my mom didn't go past high school, but she was a very bright lady. And she worked as a dental hygienist once we got into junior high school.

• 6:27Dax Shepard?

  Already you mentioned something that I'm curious. Does any pattern emerge between fraternal and/or identical from arriving first? Is there anything predictable about what baby comes out first?

• 6:38Speaker 02

  The only thing predictable about when baby comes first is that the firstborn twin, if it's a natural delivery, is in much better physical shape because of the way the uterus contracts. The secondborn twin is more likely to have some sort of difficulty, even demise. Higher mortality.

• 6:54Dax Shepard?

  Because they're in there longer.

• 6:55Speaker 02

  It's not so much that they're there longer. It's the process of being delivered.

• 6:59Dax Shepard?

  Right. I guess I meant being delivered longer.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  First one has already caused chaos.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  The delivery changes the uterus. You know, because human females are not built to have two babies or three or four. They're built to have one. And so when you put two in there, that complicates matters.

• 7:13Dax Shepard?

  So they generally are the healthier of the two?

• 7:16Speaker 02

  There's a lot of circumstances that can affect that.

• 7:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 7:18Speaker 02

  Basically, the first one has a better chance. But my sister was actually the healthier twin. She went home after two days in the incubator. I took up residence of a month.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 7:27Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  I mean, it was really kind of nice. I had my own room.

• 7:30Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  And I was spoon fed.

• 7:32Dax Shepard?

  The last bit of single attention you'd ever get.

• 7:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know.

• 7:35Dax Shepard?

  So with the healthier start, do they tend to have 1% better educational achievement, income? Any of those downriver things?

• 7:44Speaker 02

  Not with twins raised together. But you do see that with twins raised apart, which I've studied for many, many years.

• 7:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 7:50Speaker 02

  And sometimes you do see that the twin who's adopted by the better off family has more educational resources, better healthcare. But the question also becomes, does that make a difference in how they turn out? My feeling from studying lots and lots of twins is that as long as they're raised in middle-class homes with enough resources, parental attention, care, all that sort of thing, your genes will predispose you to a certain group of people, places, events, things that are compatible with who you are. As a great example, we studied a pair of British twins. One raised in a very educationally active family and one raised in a family where education was not a high priority. But the second twin loved to read, got herself a library card. And when the twins met at the age of, I think, 34 at the University of Minnesota,

• 8:33Speaker 02

  they had the same IQs, they read the same books, by the same authors. They met at the University of Minnesota as part of the Minnesota Study of Twins Raised Apart.

• 8:41Dax Shepard?

  Roger.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  Extreme environments, though, if twins are separated, can overwhelm genetic potential, as I know from my studies of these switched-at-birth Colombian twins. I'm in my office one day. I get an email from this woman who's Colombian but a social worker at Columbia University.

• 8:57Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  And she tells me, "I've heard of your work. Do you know that in Colombia now, there was a set of identical twins born in one place and identical twins born in another place? And somehow, they exchanged places." I knew right away I was going to Bogota. Because this was a case that I have never heard of before.

• 9:14Dax Shepard?

  Unparalleled potential here with what you studied.

• 9:17Speaker 02

  Not only was the two sets of twins switched apart, but it was a pair of unrelated of the same age that I call virtual twins, because they give you a pure sense of environmental influence, because they're raised in the same home but different genes. But one pair was raised in the lively, rich city of Bogota, and the other raised in this very rural area called La Paz. Do not confuse it with La Paz, Bolivia. This is La Paz, Colombia. It's the middle of nowhere. I went to visit them there. We took a car from Bogota to Velez. Then from Velez, you take a four-wheel drive to someplace else. And then you put on a pair of boots and you walk for an hour. I had a choice of hiking or riding a horse. I'm thinking, which is less dangerous? Probably the mud. I mean, there's nothing.

• 10:01Speaker 02

  Then all of a sudden, there's a house with three different sides on it, and I see our lunch being cooked outside. How would you like a freshly slaughtered cow on sticks? So that's what we had for lunch. But the whole process of this study was fascinating. And I have a book that came out in 2018 called Accidental Brothers, where I document not only the research findings, but also just the impressions I had. It was absolutely amazing to see the similarities and the differences. But when I say that extreme environments, because the guys up in the country didn't go past the fifth grade, whereas the guys in the city went to college.

• 10:34Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  And had advanced certificates.

• 10:36Dax Shepard?

  And the guys in the country had a lot more physical activity, I'd guess.

• 10:39Speaker 02

  They did. And in fact, that reminds me, we did a fascinating study on them, on their vision. And it turns out that the guys in the city had much poorer vision than the guys in the country. And people thought it was, well, because they're reading computers and all that. It wasn't that. It was that the guys in the country were out in the fresh air. No artificial lights, no sunglasses. But what was interesting was, so usually when I see twins raised apart, the re-departed twins do very similarly inability tests. These guys did more like the unrelated brother they were raised with. Because it was an extreme environment where the two guys in the country simply didn't have the education.

• 11:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so let me ask you this. Were the unrelated twins closer to one another on all these tests than their identical twin?

• 11:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 11:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Wow.

• 11:21Speaker 02

  And see, for someone like me, a fraternal twin who I can see genetics all over the place, and someone who has studied twins raised apart, the findings initially shocked me. But it's good for me because I'm very genetically predisposed to genetic explanations. And so to see something where the environment of an extreme nature overwhelmed was just a good lesson. And it gives me much more appreciation for environmental experiences.

• 11:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's been interesting, the period of time that you've studied this, the goal keeps kind of flip flopping as new scientific advances come. So I think we should start at the beginning. From Freud till twin studies, almost. The main consensus among psychologists was, we are a product of our nurture. That all of our behaviors can be kind of explained by how we were brought up and how we were nurtured. And your studies start to poke at that.

• 12:16Speaker 02

  It wasn't just our studies that started poking, there were pokes before that. And in my book, Born Together, Reared Apart, I talk all about this. And how these developments sort of led to the perfect time and place for the University of Minnesota twin study.

• 12:28Dax Shepard?

  Was that the first?

• 12:29Speaker 02

  It was actually the fourth or fifth reared apart twin study. There's a whole legacy of these things, but it's the best one.

• 12:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Okay.

• 12:35Speaker 02

  For a lot of reasons. But there began to be some advances in medicine. For example, they were able to link certain conditions like phenylketonuria to genes.

• 12:45Dax Shepard?

  What's phenylketonuria?

• 12:47Speaker 02

  Phenylketonuria is a recessive condition where a child is unable to convert phenylalanine into tyrosine, which you need for normal metabolism. And so there's a buildup of phenylalanine in the brain, and that can cause mental retardation.

• 13:02Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  It can be treated if you just give them a phenylalanine-free diet.

• 13:06Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:08Dax Shepard?

  Oh, man. How heartbreaking to learn that after the fact, probably.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. But now we're able to treat this. So at any rate, people began to see different. Differences between different breeds of dogs, different mouse strains. You could train an animal, for example, to avoid noxious noises when you paired it with food, but when you paired it with something else, it wouldn't work. So people began to see the constraints on the environment. It just wasn't a full explanation. Then there was a case study of reared apart twins done by Paul Popeno in, I think, the 1920s. And these twins, Bessie and Jessie, they were so much alike despite their separate rearing. So all along there was these developments where people were just realizing environment does not explain everything and genetics absolutely plays a role.

• 13:50Speaker 02

  But resistance to genetics came about because of the Holocaust, the Germans trying to make value judgments among different types of groups based on their different genetics. And also then there was the women's movement of the 60s and civil rights. And so discrimination or value judgments on different groups of people was not something that you welcomed. And then there was a lot of rejection of sex differences, too. But what I tell my students is, and I use the quote from this very famous evolutionary biologist, Theodosius Japanski, that differences are not deficits. Differences are just differences. And if you attach a value judgment to them, well, it's not appropriate. Now, we know, for example, that males tend to do better in visual spatial activities, females in verbal.

• 14:32Speaker 02

  So maybe if I'm lost in a cave, I might value visual spatialization a little more. Yeah. Or if I need someone to help me in a difficult law case, where you have to do a choreographic dance of verbal gymnastics, maybe I'd prefer a female. But in general, you can say, and depending upon circumstances, certain talents are going to be more valuable. But at any rate, so twin studies began to gain popularity after, of course, Josef Mengele. He was a German doctor who came to Auschwitz-Burkinau, the concentration camp in Poland. He gathered twins and dwarfs and anybody with a medical condition, and he exploited them for his own purposes. He was fascinated with twins. I actually went in 1985 with the remaining Holocaust twins to their 40th anniversary reunion.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  And I have a wonderful little annotated collection of photographs I took there that I published about two years ago. So Josef Mengele. Gave twin research a really, really bad name.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  And so it kind of stalled for a while, but made a comeback in about the 1980s. Once people began to realize that you needed genes to explain certain things that you couldn't explain otherwise, then people began to get a little more receptive. Now, there still was rejection and criticism for many, many, many years. Again, what I always tell people is, you can study, you can read, you can learn, you can make yourself better, but we're not going to have everybody being the same.

• 15:51Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 15:52Speaker 02

  And we need the talents of different people in order to survive as a population.

• 15:55Dax Shepard?

  Our variation is our strength.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  Exactly. So, I was a graduate student at the University of Chicago, always interested in twin studies, and I'm going to tell you now how I got into twin studies.

• 16:05Dax Shepard?

  And then, let's also talk about evolutionary psychology.

• 16:07Speaker 02

  We will. Such as briefly, how I got into this and how I made it just the most glorious, fun career of my lifetime, the only career. So, I was an undergraduate at Boston University. I was a psych major. I liked psychology. No topic set me on fire, till I was a senior, and I was in abnormal psychology class, and my professor said that we had to write a personal essay on some aspect of development. So, I decided to write about separating twins in school. And I found that I loved doing that. I loved the literature, I loved everything about it, and that was it. I was hooked. That was my field forever and ever and ever. I was always interested in twin studies. I was working on a twin study for my doctoral thesis. And then in 1981, Professor Burchard organized this Minnesota study of twins raised apart,

• 16:52Speaker 02

  which was launched by a pair of twins called the Jim Twins, Jim Lewis and Jim Springer, in Ohio.

• 16:58Dax Shepard?

  Isn't that great? They're both Jim. They don't have the same last name.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:01Dax Shepard?

  They're the Jim Twins.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  What? How'd that happen?

• 17:02Dax Shepard?

  They're both named Jim.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Oh, because they were separate?

• 17:04Speaker 02

  They were separated, and they were each named Jim by their adoptive families.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  And so, they met when they were 39, and they were so similar in so many ways, they both bit their fingernails to the nub. They both had light blue Chevrolets. They both were woodworkers. They both worked in McDonald's. I mean, you can name a million things about them.

• 17:21Dax Shepard?

  The craziest is, they both married Linda first.

• 17:24Speaker 02

  They married Linda.

• 17:25Dax Shepard?

  Got divorced.

• 17:25Speaker 02

  And married Betty.

• 17:26Dax Shepard?

  And then married Betty.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  And then, one of them divorced Betty and married Sandy. And so, I imagine the other Betty was pretty nervous, especially if a Sandy came around.

• 17:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The odds of all that are so incalculable. Like, is even if they both want the same thing, the notion that they would both meet a Betty?

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Find it, yes.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  Well, the beauty of reared apart twins is that they give you... New hypotheses about why things happen. You can say that Betty and the Sandy and the Linda and all that were completely coincidental. Maybe there's something about the name that attracts some. I don't know. I wrote a paper about what people call coincidence. I don't think it's coincidence. I think that there are better scientific explanations for why twins have these similarities. And, you know, we all have our own habits, ways of doing things. I think it's a function of who we are in large part. How do you explain two identical twins raised apart who never met till their 40s? And they both washed their hands before and after using the bathroom. Fear of germs, this need to be clean. Another pair of twins we met, they met at 25.

• 18:27Speaker 02

  They both used Brule cream. I mean, who didn't in those days?

• 18:30Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 18:30Speaker 02

  But they both used a very rare brand of Swedish toothpaste called Vaddy Make'em. Now, that's impressive.

• 18:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 18:39Speaker 02

  The Brule cream, who cares?

• 18:40Dax Shepard?

  First of all, it's impressive you remember the name of the toothpaste. So let's just add that. Vaddy Bake'em?

• 18:44Speaker 02

  Vaddy Make'em. I said it so many times. Why would they do this? So let's think about why. Maybe they like the unusual name, makes them different than other people. Maybe something about the taste. Maybe they have affiliations with Sweden. They like the Swedish culture. I think the toothpaste was not made with fluoride, so maybe that's what they wanted. But it gives you all these different ways of thinking about things. So a common occurrence doesn't interest me, but a rare one does.

• 19:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 19:09Speaker 02

  A rare one does.

• 19:10Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 19:11Speaker 02

  And that's where I think the genes make a difference. We had these twins who liked coffee warm, but not hot.

• 19:17Dax Shepard?

  There was a pair that liked their coffee cold.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:20Dax Shepard?

  The sisters.

• 19:20Speaker 02

  And why is that? Maybe they're afraid of burning their tongue, or they like the sensation. But see, this gives us ways of thinking about things. And rather than just saying, oh, it's chance, or oh, it's random.

• 19:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Okay, so I think most people understand evolutionary biology. They understand Darwinism to a degree. In general, when we were studying evolution, we were thinking of mostly how we developed as this species. Not so much emphasis put on our psychology. How does evolutionary psychology emerge and what is it attempting to answer?

• 19:54Speaker 02

  So with evolutionary psychology, basically, when you think about the evolution of the mind, you think about complex problems that we as a species had to solve if we were going to survive. And so those people who

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Figured out the solutions, would pass them on, and the people who would adopt them are the ones who would survive, and the ones who didn't would not. So, let's think about, for example, fear of snakes. That's a very easy explanation and example I can give you. People are afraid of snakes even if they've never had any exposure to a snake. But the people who were afraid of snakes way back were the ones who survived.

• 20:33Dax Shepard?

  They didn't get bit by snakes.

• 20:34Speaker 02

  That's right. They're the ones who survived, so they passed on these genetically-based potentials to their ancestors, which is why we're afraid of snakes now, even if we've never even seen them.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  That is interesting. People who aren't afraid of snakes, could we say that maybe they come from a line that wasn't exposed to many snakes to begin with?

• 20:50Speaker 02

  It's possible, or maybe these are more risk-taking behaviors. There is such a thing to be said about risk.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  Sometimes the risk, you have great benefits.

• 20:57Dax Shepard?

  It's part of mate selection quite often. It's a mechanism within evolution.

• 21:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:01Dax Shepard?

  You have big, loud feathers that attract predators. That's disadvantage in the wild, but it's a big advantage in mating.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  But I'm scared of snakes, and I'm now thinking like, well, snakes are in India.

• 21:11Dax Shepard?

  Oh, big time.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  This gives you a new way of thinking about why you are the way that you are.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:15Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so, quickly, for anyone who's confused on fraternal versus identical, fraternal twins are two different eggs and two different sperms that get fertilized, and then you're a person and you have the same genetic similarities as you would a normal sibling. It's not increased at all because you were in the womb at the same time.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  No. Fraternal twins do tend to be somewhat more alike, on average, than ordinary siblings. And why? Because they're the same age?

• 21:41Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 21:42Speaker 02

  So they're part of the same, quote-unquote, "generation." But identical twins result when a single fertilized egg divides within the first 14 days after conception. And these twins share all their genes. Now, having said that, there are exceptions, because there can be mutations along the way. But nevertheless, despite these, and despite the fact that being in a womb for identical twins... Actually is more conducive to differences and similarities because they can develop these mutual circulation systems, or one literally bleeds into the other.

• 22:11Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow.

• 22:11Speaker 02

  So while people say, oh, sharing a womb makes you alike, it doesn't. It makes you more different. So to me, the fact that identical twins are as alike as they are is pretty amazing, given that there are all these factors that are trying to make them different. And they're not exactly alike. Whenever we look at twins, we find differences between them, but they're still overwhelmingly more alike than fraternal twins or any other pair of people.

• 22:35Dax Shepard?

  When did kinship genetic theory come out?

• 22:38Speaker 02

  That was with Hamilton in the 70s. Kinship genetic theory is that we are predisposed to be altruistic towards individuals with whom we perceive as having genes in common with us. So that means that you would be predisposed to be nicer, say, to a mother than to an aunt, or to an identical twin than a fraternal twin, or to a cousin versus someone unrelated.

• 23:00Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  Although with cousins, you don't share a high proportion of genes with them, so it's hard to know who a cousin is. Now, Hamilton extended this further to a concept called inclusive fitness. And inclusive fitness is that it pays for me to be kind to you because you share my genes. So I'm getting my genes out in the population through you, but I also get my genes out through me for any child I create.

• 23:26Dax Shepard?

  This gets into a Richard Dawkins and selfish gene theory.

• 23:28Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:29Dax Shepard?

  That really genes are evolving, not the species.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  So it pays for me to be reproductively active, but I get a boost if I get my genes out through you.

• 23:38Dax Shepard?

  Yes. But you do have to then think about, it's not just the survival of the individual animal.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  It's the survival of the genes.

• 23:45Dax Shepard?

  It's the survival of the genes.

• 23:46Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 23:46Dax Shepard?

  That's what you're seeing.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 23:48Dax Shepard?

  It's misleading a little bit.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  Of course, none of this goes on at the conscious level. I don't think to myself, well, my sister and I are fraternal, so I won't be so nice to her if I'm identical. I'd be nicer. This just does not go on at the conscious level. But what it does is, I think it's maintained at what we call the proximate level, which is the here and now, whereas ultimate refers to genes. At the proximal level, it makes me feel happy to do good things for my sister, makes me happy to do good things for my brother. My parents, it gives me pleasure. And I think that that is what maintains this kind of differential treatment of different relatives.

• 24:21Dax Shepard?

  How does the concept of in groups are more empathetic to themselves than they are to out groups? And if you look the same, it's easier for you to empathize with another person. What about when you're identical? It seems like there would also be a very natural extension of the self. When you look so similar, there could be the genetic aspect. But then there could also be this, you truly can see yourself in the other person because they are you.

• 24:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, this whole theory is not perfect, obviously. You can certainly make mistakes. And there's a whole field of study of doppelgangers, people who look alike and are unrelated. And I've studied them. I find them absolutely fascinating for a lot of reasons.

• 24:58Dax Shepard?

  Oh, tell me.

• 24:59Speaker 02

  Well, doppelgangers are people who happen to look alike. And the way I discovered this, there's a photographer up in Canada. He was a doppelganger. He found his look alike and he began to be fascinated with this and developed the whole project called, I'm not a look alike. That's his name of his project, but they are look alike.

• 25:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 25:18Speaker 02

  Anyway, it occurred to me that these kinds of people would be a great way of testing a certain criticism against twin research. So the criticism is that identical twins are alike in personality because people treat them alike based on their appearance.

• 25:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's a good theory.

• 25:35Speaker 02

  Well, I don't agree. It makes sense at one level, but personality is in your brain, it's not in your face. So I decided to test out how similar these unrelated look alikes were in personality and compare that with twins raised apart and twins raised together. And actually, the best comparison is twins raised apart because look alikes

• 25:55Dax Shepard?

  Were raised apart.

• 25:56Speaker 02

  And identical twins raised apart, share genes, share their resemblance, but are raised apart. And so I said, if my data support my hypothesis, then it's the case that identical twins are treated more alike. But it's because they evoke the same treatment from those around them.

• 26:11Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  Right, so I did this study and we replicated it twice with different personality questionnaires. And I was dead on right. The correlations were something like point oh two for one case and point oh four for the other.

• 26:23Dax Shepard?

  So doppelgangers aren't gonna have the same.

• 26:25Speaker 02

  No, personality, no, they're not. And what makes me a little bit sad is that we have these websites now for looking for your doppelganger. And I think that the people who scour those websites are those who are looking for something in their life. And they're not gonna find it. I also did a study of these doppelgangers in terms of their social closeness to their newly found double. And they're not close. A few are, of course. I'm starting to think it's more types than it is actual one for one correspondence between features.

• 26:56Dax Shepard?

  I was gonna say, yeah, six, two guy is gonna have some predictable outcome.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, or at least people might perceive it that way. But the doppelgangers are fascinating. And unlike identical twins raised apart, who are close when they meet and become closer over time. The doppelgangers are not close when they meet, and they become less close over time.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 27:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it just fits the genetic expectations perfectly.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 27:18Dax Shepard?

  Now, you point out in your TED Talk this neat concept where twins fundamentally challenge how we think the world works. Like, we're supposed to be all individual, and just seeing them kind of threatens our understanding of the world. And I wondered, does that vary between countries that prize individuality versus those who don't? More collectivist society, are they less enamored with twins or intrigued?

• 27:44Speaker 02

  As far as I know, people are enamored with twins everywhere. And I don't think anyone has really looked at it in terms of individualistic versus collectivist societies. One could certainly test that, and I think it'd be a very interesting thing to test. But people everywhere are fascinated with twins. I've never gone anywhere, I mean, I've traveled a lot of different countries. I just came back from Greece, for example. They have a democracy there. The whole reason I was there was an invitation to a twin conference. People celebrate twins, and when they hear that I'm a twin, I mean, suddenly they're all over me.

• 28:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  And I actually think I'm kind of low on the twin type totem pole because I'm only a fraternal race together. Oh, my God.

• 28:18Dax Shepard?

  You're boring.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  Thank God I have a sister, not a brother. But actually, I should really qualify that statement, and that is that twin research would not be what it is today if you didn't have fraternal twins. Because the classic twin comparison is identical versus fraternal. It's not so much the identical. Identical twins similarity. It's their similarity relative to fraternal twins.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 28:38Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 28:38Speaker 02

  That's where the information comes from.

• 28:40Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so you did numerous studies and one of them was to test cooperation between identical twins versus cooperation between fraternal twins. And it was a very interesting outcome.

• 28:53Speaker 02

  It was. You're talking about my puzzle completion studies.

• 28:55Dax Shepard?

  Puzzles.

• 28:55Speaker 02

  Yes, I got the idea for that because I was visiting the home of a woman who had four-year-old fraternal twins. And I saw those kids fight over that puzzle like you wouldn't believe. And I realized what a great thing for my doctoral dissertation. And I thought, how would my sister and I have done this? And I think what would have happened there is because she's so much bigger than I am, she's bigger and she's stronger, I think she would have taken the whole thing to her side of the table.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  But anyway, I like to do semi-naturalistic studies, which is where you bring the same thing to the same homes, but it's still something that the twins would do anyway, work on a puzzle together. So I brought this puzzle, same puzzle, put it down exactly as it was. The kids sat on one side of the table and I just said to everybody, solve it together. The identical twins were like a beautiful coordinated synchrony.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  Really?

• 29:43Speaker 02

  They faced each other, the puzzle pieces were gently placed and no fighting and happy smiles, and they were quite good at it. They finished it faster than the fraternals, as I remember right. But the fraternal twins did one of two things. Either one child completely took the pieces over to her side of the table.

• 29:59Dax Shepard?

  That was Monica.

• 30:00Speaker 02

  Or some people took a few to their side and they took a few to their side. And of course, you couldn't do the puzzle.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:07Speaker 02

  So then, I remember one little boy snatched the puzzle from his sister. It was really quite amazing. I would sit there with my breath held because I would tell the mothers, you can't come in, because mothers would say, oh, play nicely.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:19Speaker 02

  If mothers said, we'd play nicely, I'd kill that mother.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:23Speaker 02

  One of the most amazing things I saw were two fraternal twins and one kid put her arms like this and took all the pieces over. She's solving and the other little girl's kind of going, I want to be part of it. Then the little girl finally looked up at the camera, did this to me.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Wave at you.

• 30:38Speaker 02

  That's the one that I showed all my lectures. It's absolutely amazing.

• 30:45Dax Shepard?

  Share expert if you dare.

• 30:50Dax Shepard?

  We get support from Skims. Okay, I have a confession. I genuinely love matching pajamas. It's the best part of Christmas morning, really. Everyone in the same matching set, looking ridiculously cute in front of the tree.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  I love matching pajamas. I'm literally going to be in coordinating sets with all my friends this holiday season. Because I got them, spoiler to my friends who are listening, the same Skims pajama set I've been living in. They are so soft and cozy and they look cute. So you can leave the house and go get a late night hot chocolate. Ooh. Cozy.

• 31:25Dax Shepard?

  It's so great how Skims has sets for everyone, too. Women's, men's, kids, even your pets. So nobody in your life has to be left out this year.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  I have a bunch of different pajama sets. One of my favorite is the organic cotton sleep long sleeve set.

• 31:41Dax Shepard?

  Okay. Tell me more.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  It is so comfortable, very chic, too. The top is a button down, but very, very soft, easy to sleep in. But as I said before, you can multi-purpose this. And look super cute.

• 31:55Dax Shepard?

  Hot chocolate runs. It's like the pajamas we grew up in, except without the scratchy polyester that made opening presents feel more like a hot yoga class that nobody signed up for.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  All the nostalgia, none of the discomfort. Shop my favorite loungewear and pajamas at skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you. Select podcasts in the survey and be sure to select Armtra Expert in the dropdown menu that follows. If you're looking for the perfect gifts for everyone on your list, the Skims Holiday Shop is now open at skims.com.

• 32:23Dax Shepard?

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Every family has that one holiday tradition nobody actually enjoys, but everyone keeps doing because stopping it would feel like a federal offense. For me, it was a specific meal situation that I will not name because my family listens. But at some point, you have to ask yourself, am I doing this because I love it or because I'm afraid of what happens if I don't?

• 32:46Speaker 01

  Yes, and that question applies to so much more than the holidays. I think a lot of us carry these invisible rules about how we're supposed to spend the holidays, who we're supposed to spend. See what it's supposed to look like. And when you start unpacking that with a therapist, you realize half of your stress is coming from rules you didn't even write.

• 33:02Dax Shepard?

  This is where BetterHelp can be a great resource during the holidays. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences, which means they typically get it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recs.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  I just love therapy. I've been avoiding it recently, or not avoiding it, but I was like, oh, I'm busy, I'm busy, I'm busy. I haven't canceled, canceled, canceled. But then I-

• 33:29Dax Shepard?

  You start feeling it.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, because then I had it this past weekend and I was like, oh my God. And just thank God, thank God for her. Yeah.

• 33:37Dax Shepard?

  BetterHelp is now in-network with more than 125 health plans, with many copays as low as $15 for eligible members. And if you don't have eligible insurance or live outside the US, you can still get 20% off your first month. Sign up and get 20% off at betterhelp.com/dax. That's betterhelp, H E L P, dot com slash DAX. We get support from Superhuman. Look, I love what I do. The conversations, the ideas, the creative stuff. But there's this whole other layer of work that eats my day alive. The inbox that never ends. Docs I need to get through, threads I'm behind on. And by the time I've dealt with all that, the stuff I actually want to focus on gets whatever's left.

• 34:22Dax Shepard?

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• 35:05Dax Shepard?

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• 35:31Speaker 03

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• 36:16Speaker 03

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• 36:35Speaker 02

  Now, there was overlap. There were some identicals that weren't that cooperative and some officials that were, but the information you get about human behavior comes from the many, not the few.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Do you think potentially the fraternal twins are seeking individuality a little bit more? They're already being lumped together so much in life that I could imagine them being like, no, but we're different, whereas identical twins, sorry.

• 36:57Dax Shepard?

  The ship sailed.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 36:58Speaker 02

  Actually, Monica, I think it's the absolute reverse, because with fraternal twins, they don't have to try so hard to be individuals. They look very different. They are very different. They have different tastes and preferences and things like that. And it's very easy for parents to treat them differently. Now, some parents will lump them together, but you- Usually, the twins can't be lumped.

• 37:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 37:17Speaker 02

  Now, with identical twins, they will tell you that they are separate individuals. And a lot of times, they don't even see the similarities. It's quite striking when you hear that, because you see two identical people. I remember a mother who brought her little girls to my lab. Now, she brought them on different days. Fraternal, she said, and this was a biology teacher. And then I'm thinking, second day, why is she bringing the same girl back?

• 37:38Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 37:39Speaker 02

  And I realized, these were identical twins.

• 37:40Dax Shepard?

  And she thought they were fraternal?

• 37:42Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 37:42Dax Shepard?

  Yes, how often does that happen? Because pre-genome mapping, you couldn't have found out.

• 37:46Speaker 02

  Hospitals don't routinely do DNA tests, in which they should, for all same-sex twins. Because the same behavior can have different interpretations if twins are identical or fraternal. If identical twins are quite different to something, say, an ability test, maybe one child has a problem. Fraternal twins, are they very different? Could be they're different genes.

• 38:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 38:04Speaker 02

  So, I'm all in favor of that. But parents are more likely to think identical twins are fraternal than fraternals are identical. And that's because they're so sensitive to subtle differences between the children.

• 38:15Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 38:15Speaker 02

  That they don't even see the similarities.

• 38:17Dax Shepard?

  Which is great, that's what you would want from your mother or your father.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 38:20Dax Shepard?

  See you as an individual.

• 38:21Speaker 02

  But I think parents of identicals have to reach a kind of happy balance. Because after all, this is a special relationship. And the twins tend to be very, very close to one another, and they want to be together. And so to separate them all the time may not be what they want. Or to make them do different things all the time is not what they want.

• 38:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you probably have this fear as a parent, as all parents are fearful, like, oh, I gotta make them independent. They can't go through their whole life together. I have to break them up and make them find their own way. I could see what your fear would motivate you to do that.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I think that parents can stay sensitive. I think that parenting is so important when it comes to just being vigilant and paying attention to children. And I often tell parents, you don't bring up your child, your child brings you up. Because parents find that what works with one kid doesn't always work with the other kid.

• 39:02Dax Shepard?

  I love what you say, that parents of one child are generally.

• 39:07Speaker 02

  Environmentalists.

• 39:08Dax Shepard?

  Environmentalists.

• 39:09Speaker 02

  And parents of two are geneticists.

• 39:10Dax Shepard?

  Couldn't have been more true for me. You just described us two at teeth. For two years, we were like, we're crushing this, she's already potty trained, she talked before everyone. You took pride in that. This is the product of our hard work as parents. And then Delta arrived, and we're like, oh, no, this girl's completely different.

• 39:24Speaker 02

  The people I think are the best informed parents, without even book learning, are the parents of fraternal twins. Because they've got kids at the same moment, and they can just see how different they are. I'll tell you honestly, they know more about human behavior and development than a lot of my colleagues.

• 39:39Dax Shepard?

  Really?

• 39:39Speaker 02

  A lot of my colleagues kind of give lip service, yes, genetics, but. It's only environment.

• 39:44Dax Shepard?

  I know no one with two kids would say that.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  And another fascinating thing is that reared up park twins, they often think that their behaviors are environmentally influenced until they meet their twin. And suddenly they do a complete revision of everything they thought about. It's quite striking.

• 39:57Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so your work, along with all the twin stuff, is, I imagine, one of the main sources that we get that lead us more to embrace that, at best, this is a mix of nature and nurture, and it might be more nature than we think it is. I wonder, you must have seen Three Identical Strangers, that documentary?

• 40:14Speaker 02

  Of course I did.

• 40:14Dax Shepard?

  Yes, it's so great. And as a parent, it's an interesting experience to watch it. The premise, for people who don't know, triplets are separated at birth, and they slowly start discovering each other in their early twenties, I think at college.

• 40:27Speaker 02

  Nineteen.

• 40:28Dax Shepard?

  At first, you're going through all the similarities, right? They smoke the same cigarettes, they like the same T-shirts. And when you're a parent, you're going, well, what's even the point? I don't even have really a role in this. But as the doc unfolds, and they do a great job of it, you learn, oh, no, there's a lot of nurture also going on. And so that, to me, brings up the question of, how do you correct for the kind of confirmation bias that's just so right? In that you're gonna bring together two separated identical twins, you're naturally gonna focus on the similarities that are peculiar, defy explanation, the same toothpaste from Switzerland. And you're gonna miss tons of ways that they're completely different, because you're in search of it.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  You're wrong.

• 41:09Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great.

• 41:09Speaker 02

  We did not focus on the similarities. They came up. We simply looked at a lot of different measures, medical measures, psychological measures, physiological measures.

• 41:21Dax Shepard?

  Like intelligence, athleticism.

• 41:23Speaker 02

  Blood pressure, I mean, all kinds of things. We let the data just tell us what happened. And quite frankly, we were surprised at how similar the twins were. We expected things like in social attitudes and religiosity, there'd be differences, but they were very similar. And when you think about it, see, the early studies in twin research looked at religiosity. What is that? How much you participate in religious activities? How spiritual are you? But they studied children, and that was the mistake. They studied children who are under the thumbs of their parents. Yes, exactly. So they're gonna do what they're gonna do. So. The identical fraternal twin differences never emerged. When you study adults who are free to choose, then the genetic factors start to emerge. So when we say that behavior has genetic influence, it certainly does.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  I think that nature certainly plays a role. But what happens is that more behaviors than we previously would have thought have a genetic influence, like social attitudes, like religiosity, reactions to films. Now, Three Identical Strangers, let's get back to that for a second.

• 42:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 42:20Speaker 02

  I love that movie. And I wrote a book about that unethical twin study that they were part of. In the 1960s, there was a psychiatric consultant, Viola Bernard, who worked with Louise Wise Services, where mothers would come and they would leave their babies. These were single Jewish moms. And if they had twins, this consultant said twins should be separated because if they grow up together, then they're not going to be able to individuate. There was no literature to back that at all. There was a doctor named Dr. Peter Neubauer, who knew Dr. Viola Bernard, who was the consultant. And he decided to study these twins. And the parents who had one twin were told your child's in a child development study, but they were never told that it was a twin study. And this all came out later when the triplets met.

• 43:05Speaker 02

  I was fascinated with this. And everyone came up to me and said, you have got to do the book on this. And I was hesitant because I knew that it was going to be controversial. But I knew I was the best person in the world to do it.

• 43:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  So I did it. My book, Deliberately Divided, came out in 2021. But anyway, everyone thinks that it was Viola Bernard's idea to separate the twins and that Peter Neubauer then took advantage of the situation and studied them. I'm not so sure. I have a feeling that maybe he wanted to study them because he always thought about it and he was seeking a reason to separate. I think that's a possibility. I'm putting that forward with no real hard evidence. There were five sets of identical twins who were in this study and the one set of triplets. In fact, one set was actually dropped, which was such bad science because they were adopted at very different times and at different birth weights. But that's not good science. You keep in the different ones.

• 43:59Dax Shepard?

  Anything that's inconvenient, you don't get to just throw out.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  Of course not. You're going to bias your data that way. The Minnesota Study of Twins raised a part. We looked at fraternal twins too, which was a new thing. The previous studies had not done that. And I will say that in this unethical study in the 1960s, they studied the identicals, but they separated the fraternals and didn't study them.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  You have to ask yourself, why? Of course, fraternal twins would not have a problem with individuation so much because they look so different.

• 44:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you would think you'd be using it as a control group, but you're not even studying it, so it's not.

• 44:28Speaker 02

  And there were at least four or five sets of fraternals that we know about. The identicals meant like the triplets, confused identity. But fraternals are not going to undergo that, so they're never going to know. There are probably fraternal twins running around out there that will never know that they were twins. And I will say that, maybe you don't know, but another movie came out about this situation called The Twinning Reaction.

• 44:48Dax Shepard?

  Oh, no, I haven't seen it.

• 44:49Speaker 02

  Yes, it's an excellent movie also. It got less attention. I was asked to be a consultant on Three Identical Strangers, but I'd already put my loyalties in this other one. But I am in the other one. I'm a very loyal person.

• 45:01Dax Shepard?

  What's that one called again?

• 45:02Speaker 02

  The Twinning Reaction. And if you need a link to it, I can send that. It's out, it's a fascinating movie.

• 45:06Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I would love that, because I love Three Identical Strangers.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  I thought the reenactment in that was superb. It was very accurate and exactly as it happened. I know a lot about those triplets.

• 45:15Dax Shepard?

  So now, here's what I'm saying about the full arc of this exploration, which is fascinating. Initially, identical twins that are separated provide this really unique opportunity to demonstrate the power of your DNA, your genetics. At that time, when you start, we have not mapped the genome, so we can't do a genetic test. But now we can. Now we can look at genes. We're starting to learn certain genes are predictive of a lot of different things. I said the caffeine thing. Misophonia is one that comes up on a genetic test, right?

• 45:47Speaker 02

  Many, many things.

• 45:48Dax Shepard?

  Yes. The value of twins almost flips at this point, because now, as opposed to bringing them back together, seeing the similarities to prove the genetics have a role in this, now you're bringing identical twins together to see these differences that have emerged in pursuit of proving how powerful the epigenome is, which becomes a kind of new area of exploration. So let's talk about the epigenome.

• 46:11Speaker 02

  I see what you're saying, that twin studies have a kind of different function now than they had in the past. When the Minnesota study was in play, that was 1979 to 1999, we brought in the twins and studied their behavior. And now, you can actually look at their genes, and you can get all different kinds of things. So a study like we did would probably not fly right now, although... I do all kinds of studies with twins. I will say that even though we're in an era now where we're looking at the molecular side of things, I think there's no substitution for actually having a pair of flesh and blood twins in front of you and watching them. There are so many things we still have to study. Now, when we talk about the epigenome, we're talking about genetic expression and how that can change based on circumstance. And this is where identical twins can be enormously valuable.

• 46:56Speaker 02

  This is where it's so important for learning about other people, non-twins. I think people have this wrong impression that twin research is for twins only. It's not. It's a model for understanding human behavior writ large.

• 47:07Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  Okay. Suppose one identical twin has Alzheimer's, the other one does not. We've seen cases like that. And so what is it that turns on the genes for one and not on the other? Why is it that one identical twin is homosexual and the other one isn't?

• 47:21Dax Shepard?

  You have that?

• 47:22Speaker 02

  Yes. Is there a gene or a group of genes it flips on? Is it some hormonal exposure? I've studied identical twins where one undergoes transsexual reassignment surgery.

• 47:31Dax Shepard?

  Oh, no kidding?

• 47:32Speaker 02

  Why does one identical female twin feel like a male from the age of three and the other one does not?

• 47:37Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 47:37Speaker 02

  Why is that? I mean, these are things that we can understand. So now, think about schizophrenia. Forty percent similarity rate in identical twins. Why is that? And we can look at the epigenome, we can look at birth factors, we can look at brain structures, lots of different things. And there's probably not just one explanation, there's probably many, many explanations for this.

• 47:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, what are some of the explanations that you found looking at that? Because when I went to this college and I had an abnormal psychology class, and they were explaining that schizophrenia in particular is a genetic predisposition, but then there's a stressful event in this window of time that can activate it.

• 48:14Speaker 02

  So it could be a stressful event. It's the diathesis stress theory that you have a predisposition, but if you're not stressed, it may never be expressed. They find differences in brain structure where one identical twin has it and the other one doesn't. One of the most fascinating cases was the Janine quadruplets. Do you know about that case?

• 48:30Dax Shepard?

  No, tell us.

• 48:31Speaker 02

  Oh, this is an amazing case. This came out in 1963, at the time when genetics didn't basically exist in people's psychological themes, and everything was environmentally oriented. So there were four identical quads born in Michigan, and they all had schizophrenia, but to varying degrees of severity. Yeah, and so a book came out called The Janine Quadruplets. Now, Janine is not the real name. Janine means dreadful birth or dire gene. And they were given the names N I M H, Nora, Iris, Myra, and Hester, after N I M H, the National Institute of Mental Health, where they were studied.

• 49:09Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 49:09Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 49:10Speaker 02

  I was privileged to know their real names because my first year in grad school, I rode away to all these places to try to get a summer job. And I got a couple of offers, but the one I took was to be a research assistant on the study of the Janine quadruplets.

• 49:24Dax Shepard?

  At U of M?

• 49:25Speaker 02

  No, at N I M H. And so I got to read all the correspondence that they sent to the investigator, and I was coding it and looking for certain themes. I mean, it was a dream job.

• 49:34Speaker 01

  Wow, that's so cool.

• 49:35Speaker 02

  I was thrilled about that. But they came out at a time when genetics was not a major explanation for psychopathology. So it kind of rattled the boat.

• 49:44Dax Shepard?

  Well, people were probably quick to say those parents did something if all four of them turned out schizophrenic.

• 49:49Speaker 02

  I will say that there were still critics of genetics, but they're fewer and far between. You can't explain certain things without reference to genetics. You just can't.

• 49:57Dax Shepard?

  Right, and so what was the explanation you guys felt most confident in about these varying outcomes of the same illness?

• 50:05Speaker 02

  Part of it had to do with how parents treated them in terms of their birth order. That's just one of many explanations. But I remember that there was a preferred pair and a non-preferred pair. The preferred pair was birth order one, birth order three, and the non-preferred pair was birth order two, birth order four. And the fourth one was really, really sick. I mean, she was the sickest of all, so the second born didn't want to be with her. They think that part of her resentment came into play. Birth order three, who was paired in the preferred pair, she actually was less affected than others. And she actually married and had some kids and wrote an autobiography.

• 50:39Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow.

• 50:39Speaker 02

  But nevertheless, she had some strange behaviors. It's amazing that they were all so different. It could have been something epigenetic. We really can just speculate as to why they came out so different.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  Did they all get it at the same time?

• 50:50Speaker 02

  Pretty much.

• 50:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, because there's a window, right? It's like from seventeen to twenty-five or something.

• 50:55Speaker 02

  Most young adults, yeah, that's usually when it is. But they had strange behaviors even before, and there was some evidence of child abuse and things like that.

• 51:02Dax Shepard?

  Okay, let's drill down a little further on epigenome because what's really fascinating about this new field that we're learning more and more about epigenetics is It brings back Lamarckian evolution in a way. In that know your environment, your body could real time respond. And although it couldn't alter your overall DNA, it can certainly alter how the DNA is used. So far, there's a lot of people that believe you can pass that on.

• 51:29Speaker 02

  You can.

• 51:29Dax Shepard?

  Talk about that a little bit. That's fascinating.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  So the fact that parents can pass on genes to children is well known. The fact that they can pass on altered expression also can happen.

• 51:40Dax Shepard?

  We hear this about trauma quite a bit, that it seems to be transferable.

• 51:44Speaker 02

  It seems to be because if you look at Holocaust survivors, children have certain kinds of behaviors that are not typical. Some people say, well, it's because they're around their parents, but it could also be something passed down in the genes.

• 51:54Dax Shepard?

  It would be interesting to see if the orphans of those people had the same outcomes or similar.

• 51:59Speaker 02

  Right. My understanding is that these epigenetic changes that are passed on eventually may fade over time.

• 52:06Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 52:06Speaker 02

  As people have different experiences and things of that sort, but the DNA stays intact.

• 52:10Dax Shepard?

  Right. The epigenomes fluid and the DNA is fixed.

• 52:13Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  It is weird that Mary-Kate and Ashley are fraternal twins and they look identical.

• 52:18Dax Shepard?

  But that, that just turned out they've never taken a DNA test.

• 52:22Speaker 02

  I have seen many pictures of them and I know they have a store in Los Angeles, clothing stores. They're identical. I mean, there's no question about it.

• 52:29Dax Shepard?

  Monica, that was a slam dunk for me.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  There's no question. And I think they're doing a real disservice by not having a DNA test.

• 52:35Speaker 01

  Do we know for sure they haven't?

• 52:37Speaker 02

  Maybe they have and it's never come out. I don't know, but I would bet my money on them being identical. Also, one's right-handed and one's left-handed. 25% of identical twins are opposite-handed. That's the same for fraternal twins too, but still their faces look a little asymmetrical to me, which is consistent with that.

• 52:53Dax Shepard?

  Listen, again, I dated one of them and I was around the other quite a bit. And I was fascinated by the fact that they were definitely identical and definitely quite different. I found that endlessly interesting.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  You know what I find endlessly interesting, and I'm working on this right now in the book that I'm writing, is I'm interested in why someone like you might be attracted to one identical twin and not to the other. And I'm also interested in the other way around. Why one of the twins finds one person attractive and the other one does not. I find that Fascinating.

• 53:22Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  And I think that maybe in the second scenario where you've got two twins and one is attracted and the other one isn't, they could have both been, but one sets up something, the other one kind of backs off. And the reason I say that is because I was in England to do a TV show, and a lot of times TV has these gimmicky little experiments.

• 53:41Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 53:41Speaker 02

  But this one was brilliant. They didn't realize how brilliant it was. So they had four pairs of identical twins in different rooms, and they brought in identical twin actors and actresses to meet these twins as potential dating partners. And the twins found the same potential dating partners attractive. Not all identical twins are going to meet identical twins. You know, there's a limit. So I think that's what happens. But I will also say that I've studied identical twins who've married identical twins.

• 54:07Dax Shepard?

  It has to be very rare.

• 54:08Speaker 02

  It's not as rare as you think. A lot of them go to Twinsburg, Ohio, where they have these festivals in August, the Twins Days Festival, and some of them go specifically to meet twins. Yeah. And why is that? Because they want their spouse to understand just how meaningful this relationship is, so the spouse won't get jealous.

• 54:23Dax Shepard?

  And easier to marry the two. Like, if you want to stay in constant contact, but also get a partner, it's helpful if your partners are also in the same situation.

• 54:30Speaker 02

  And if you have babies, you got a built-in babysitter, too.

• 54:33Dax Shepard?

  And then your children, okay, we'll jump to that.

• 54:36Speaker 02

  We're going to get to the children. Right. Because I have a lot of fascinating things to say about the kids. I met these identical twins who married identical twins, and I went out and hung out with them for a couple of days. And I assumed naively that didn't matter who you married, everybody's genetically interchangeable. Oh, I was really wrong. I picked this one, she's got a sweeter, gentler face. That meant a lot. I picked the one who was the first one. I picked the one who was the more dominant, because I'm submissive, and two dominos would hit each other, and submissives would never get along. There were real reasons why certain pairs went together. And I've read about a couple or so that met recently, and it's almost immediate who goes with whom. It's just amazing how it gets decided. When identical twins marry identical twins, of course, the children are legal first cousins, but the genetic full siblings. Yeah.

• 55:18Speaker 02

  And what is more common, though, is identical twins who marry unrelated people, and their children are genetic half siblings. And in those cases, the aunt is the mother, and the father is the uncle, if it's a twin mother. The twin fathers.

• 55:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I do think that's confusing when your mom and aunt are identical. We interviewed someone whose mother died and then their identical twin sister stepped in to help. And I thought, well, that's as good as it's ever gonna get for somebody who loses their parent.

• 55:47Speaker 02

  And now, one case I want to tell you about, and I'll come back to that, is I met one's family with identical twins who married identical twins. And they had children on the same day. Can you calculate the relationship between those kids?

• 55:58Dax Shepard?

  Can I calculate the relationship between, oh, so they were born on the same day? They have the exact same two contributing genetic pool.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  So they're the same person?

• 56:09Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no. They are fraternal twins genetically speaking.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  Oh, because they were in separate?

• 56:16Speaker 02

  They're not strictly twins because they didn't share the womb, but they were born on the same day to the same parents.

• 56:21Dax Shepard?

  The same sperm and ovum.

• 56:22Speaker 02

  Right, so they're like fraternal twins.

• 56:24Dax Shepard?

  Yes, because you asked me, I was certainly way more attracted to the one I was with.

• 56:31Speaker 02

  I think studying a situation like yours would tell us a lot about mate selection, about the very subtle things that spell the difference between loving and liking. Twins are ideal for studying mate selection.

• 56:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  Don't you think some of this leads to just that attraction is environmental then?

• 56:50Speaker 02

  I don't know. I think attraction is too complicated to just attribute to one set of factors.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  Sure, maybe it's a multiple layer.

• 56:56Speaker 02

  This smell?

• 56:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, pheromones.

• 56:58Speaker 02

  I mean, we tend to like somebody who's sort of like us, but not too much like us, or not too different. It's a lot of things.

• 57:04Speaker 01

  I did used to have a theory that people are attracted romantically to people who have some sort of similar features to themselves, even if things are very different, like race is different, or overtly they don't look the same, but once you really start looking, it's like, oh, actually, they both have prominent fists or big eyes.

• 57:24Speaker 02

  You're very smart because we find that similarities attract, right? Birds of a feather. It's not that opposites attract. Now, the biggest features that attract people are values, things like that. Height and weight, not so much. The physical features, not so much, but it's values and educational levels. Those are really important.

• 57:42Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so you're about to say the new book you're writing?

• 57:44Speaker 02

  No, I was gonna say that a study that I'm writing.

• 57:45Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, a study.

• 57:46Speaker 02

  We got from these twins married to twins. It's all framed with an evolutionary psychology. And so I hypothesized that identical twins.

• 57:55Speaker 02

  Would be more heavily invested in their identical twin sisters or brothers' children

• 58:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 58:01Speaker 02

  than with fraternal twins. And that's exactly what I found. Oh, wow. Yeah. It's a behavioral genetic design to look at an evolutionary-based hypothesis. That's what I did.

• 58:10Dax Shepard?

  What was the construct of that? Like, how do you test for that?

• 58:12Speaker 02

  So what I did was I constructed a questionnaire that had thirty-six items in it asking about, does this child look like it could have been your child? How much time do you spend with this child? Do you think of this child as your own? Questions along those lines. And the identical twins came out with higher scores than the fraternal twins, which didn't surprise me at all.

• 58:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 58:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:31Dax Shepard?

  Well, again, this is insanely anecdotal, but it's just been my own personal experience. My kids, well, one in particular, is a little shyer, very slow to warm up to new kids her age. That's pretty consistent across the board. I have my cousin down with his kids. She knows their cousins. Immediately, it's on. There was none of that self-consciousness. The shyness is gone. It was stark. It's like, oh, my God, they just arrived. They don't know each other, and they're immediately at ease with each other. And I'm like, is this something genetic happening? That just wouldn't happen with a stranger entering the house.

• 59:03Speaker 02

  It's hard to know. It could be just a meshing of personalities that the kids have. But one of the most striking things I ever saw was a reunion between identical female twins. They were born in China, and they were separated because of the one-child policy. One day, I get this telephone call from the mom in Sacramento, who told me she was raising a twin raised apart from China, and the other twin was in a little town in Norway in the fjords. Whoa.

• 59:28Dax Shepard?

  Oh, what a different nurture.

• 59:30Speaker 02

  So here's what happened. About that time, the BBC contacted me and said, got any good stories for us? I said, if you will fly the Norwegian family to Sacramento and fly me from Fullerton to Sacramento, you've got yourself a story.

• 59:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 59:42Speaker 02

  And they did.

• 59:43Dax Shepard?

  And were you there for the first time they met?

• 59:44Speaker 02

  Oh, yes.

• 59:45Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 59:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 59:46Dax Shepard?

  What was that like?

• 59:46Speaker 02

  And so the little girl runs out of her house, and the little girl outside is jumping up and down. And then this other one comes out, looks exactly like her, and she starts jumping up and down.

• 59:55Dax Shepard?

  How old were they?

• 59:56Speaker 02

  Six.

• 59:56Dax Shepard?

  Six.

• 59:57Speaker 02

  And, of course, one spoke English, one spoke Norwegian. But I observed the kids playing, and they played together like they'd known each other all their lives. They somehow figured it out. And I had a wonderful picture that I took of the kids where they're standing back to back. They're holding hands. And I happened to go back to Norway about eight years later for a conference in Oslo. But I went out to Freswick in the fjords. And I positioned the same way. This most amazing Thomas photography, because the one who was taller before is a little taller now.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 1:00:24Speaker 02

  I remember seeing them at age 14, where the other one can now speak English. And they would just leave the adults and they'd go somewhere and just talk. They had this world of their own. That's what identical twins do. And I think that many people envy that closeness.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  Yes, definitely.

• 1:00:38Dax Shepard?

  You probably never went down this path because it wasn't your discipline by maybe like Lingus would be interested in this. But did you ever explore how much they can communicate? I think that's a fascination we have.

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  It is a fascination. And I have not studied it systematically, but I've observed many, many cases. I've gone to twins homes where I'll say, who's going first? They look at each other. Suddenly one leaves and one stays. And what is transpiring there, I don't know. People call it twin language, which is really not a language. It's a system of communications, words, gestures, phrases that twins often evolve because they're so close together. Identical twins and fraternal twins will both do it. My sister and I had little games that we used to play sometimes. But the identical twins do it to a much greater degree. And it'll just be like they hold up an object, they give it a name. And it's very fascinating to watch it, but it's not a language. It's just a system of communication. And what it can do is delay the onset of normal language in twins.

• 1:01:34Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  And so parents have to be mindful of that. Because if they spend too much time together, they won't be able to converse in appropriate ways with their peers or with adults.

• 1:01:42Dax Shepard?

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  What a fascinating topic.

• 1:01:45Dax Shepard?

  I know, I'm kind of jealous that you got to study this.

• 1:01:48Speaker 02

  You should be, because I discover stuff all the time. New things all the time.

• 1:01:53Dax Shepard?

  I guess my last question about them is, do they overindex in just self-esteem? I feel like if I had a built-in partner, that I would just be a little less fearful about the world in general.

• 1:02:05Speaker 02

  I think that's true to some extent, because I've interviewed a number of twins who say that they never had the peer pressures that other people had. They didn't feel like they had conformed to things. They were very comfortable with each other, didn't need a lot of friends and felt very good about it. And I think along those lines, I've just been so impressed with how selfless identical twins are. And what I mean by that is athletes, kids who run for student government. You'd think that everybody wants to win. It doesn't matter to them if they win or their twin wins. And I found that really hard to understand at first.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:02:34Speaker 02

  But it's true. I spoke to these twins who ran for student government, and they both ran as presidents. And they didn't care who won. They said, "We will be president."

• 1:02:43Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:02:43Speaker 02

  They used a lot of "we's."

• 1:02:44Dax Shepard?

  We is.

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  It's too bad the rest of us can't feel that. It's very special. It's a good thing to feel like a "we," as opposed to an "I."

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  You know, you're absolutely right. It's such a nonjudgmental, accepting relationship, that you can be yourself completely. And what a luxury to be yourself and know that you're always going to be loved and always accepted. That's what people are really after, and I think that's what's driving people to find their doppelgangers.

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  Probably.

• 1:03:11Dax Shepard?

  You know, we interviewed an identical twin, and she was saying that she thought the gift of it is when you got into middle school and high school and you're trying out identities, she basically got to watch someone do experiments for her. Her sister would try a new hairstyle, and she could sit back and go like, "Well, that's how it'll work out for me." And she just took this role of like, "Yeah, you run the experiment, and I'll keep what works." And I was like, "Oh, that's a neat, strategic way."

• 1:03:38Speaker 02

  I read an article in the New Yorker magazine, and it was about sort of the paths untaken and how we all can imagine how our lives would turn out if we'd married someone else or gone to a different school or taken a different job. The experiment that you're describing with different hairstyles, that's on kind of a low level. But identical twins raised apart are the only people in the world who can really see themselves in a life unlived. Really, it's fascinating.

• 1:04:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they meet up and go, "Wow, okay, so if I would've went to that school, this would've happened, if I would've met."

• 1:04:06Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. I don't know if you know the case of the twins where one was raised Jewish and one was raised in Nazi Germany?

• 1:04:11Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:04:11Dax Shepard?

  Tell me that one.

• 1:04:12Speaker 02

  Jack and Oscar. They were born to a Romanian Jewish father and a German Catholic mother in Trinidad. The couple met on a boat, heading to Trinidad. And they had a little girl, and then three and a half years later, they had Jack and Oscar, identical twin boys. When the marriage soured, Jack stayed with his father in Trinidad and was raised Jewish, and Oscar went back to Nazi Germany with his mom and was raised Catholic. And he was not a Nazi, as many of the... The newspapers will tell you, he was 12 years old when the war ended. He was in the Hitler Youth, but he thought it was a great opportunity to play sports, go camping, not go to church. And so when they met, they met at 21 for the first time and they didn't get along at all because they had very different political understandings. They couldn't speak the same language.

• 1:04:55Dax Shepard?

  Had his brother been in a concentration camp or anything?

• 1:04:58Speaker 02

  No, the Jewish one had lived in Trinidad.

• 1:05:00Dax Shepard?

  Oh, sorry.

• 1:05:00Speaker 02

  And he had been to the Israeli Navy. So then they met again at 40, when the wife of one of them discovered the Minnesota Study of Twins Raised Apart. So by now the twins are 40 and they're thinking, let's give this a shot. And it turned out they had the most amazing love hate relationship. But the most fascinating thing about them was that they both knew that had their positions been switched, they would have embraced the ideology and understandings that they currently despised.

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:05:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:27Speaker 02

  And I find that fascinating. That's a very good example of environment. Now, how did they handle their respective situations is interesting. So Jack raised in Trinidad was afraid that somebody would discover his German roots. So he became very pro-British. And Oscar was afraid somebody would discover his Jewish roots, so he became very pro-German. The content was different, but the approach was the same.

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:47Dax Shepard?

  Survival incentives.

• 1:05:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:52Speaker 04

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

• 1:05:58Dax Shepard?

  This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I have my dream job. I get to talk to folks I admire like crazy and ask them virtually any question that I want to. I can't imagine a better way to spend my time. But even dream jobs have some not so dreamy parts, the stuff that gets in the way of the actual work. Now that's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it, start to finish, cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. So you and your team can focus on what matters most, which for me is are they obsessed with male bodies on the same level as I am?

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

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• 1:06:41Dax Shepard?

  To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com.

• 1:06:47Dax Shepard?

  We get support from Instagram teen accounts. So we talk a lot on this show about how the world is different now than when we were growing up. And one of the biggest differences is obviously social media. And I think a lot of people wonder, okay, what's actually being done to make it safer for teenagers?

• 1:07:03Speaker 01

  Which is a fair question.

• 1:07:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so Instagram has got something called teen accounts and they come with automatic protections built in by default. So anyone between 13 and 17 is automatically placed into this experience. They get age appropriate content settings, contact limits, so that by default, only people they're already connected to can message them. And time management tools, daily time limit reminders, and also sleep mode that mutes notifications from 10:00 PM to 7:00 AM.

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  Sleep mode is genius.

• 1:07:32Dax Shepard?

  Right? And here's the thing, for anyone under 16, a parent has to give permission to change any of those settings to be less strict. The guardrails are on and Instagram keeps building new safety features to create age appropriate experiences for teens.

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  I am really glad Instagram is helping to give parents peace of mind with teen accounts.

• 1:07:51Dax Shepard?

  Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com/teenaccounts. We get support by Peloton. You know that feeling when you're spiraling over a problem and you just can't figure it out? When that happens to me, I need a change of pace and I've found that running is the best way. It takes my brain out of the driver's seat and I come back with a fresh perspective. Running can be freeing and cathartic and Peloton helps you feel all of that. And now that feeling fits wherever you need it with the new Peloton Tread Flex. It's movable and foldable, designed to fit your life. So next time you feel stuck, you can go for a run literally anywhere, whether that's in your office, living room, or even the attic.

• 1:08:36Dax Shepard?

  Plus, they have classes with expert instructors and programs to meet you at any level and keep you moving. Let yourself run. Explore the new Peloton Tread Flex at onepeloton.com.

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• 1:09:32Dax Shepard?

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• 1:09:55Dax Shepard?

  Okay, my last question is, are there any cases of these twins reuniting and not carrying on with a relationship? Or they all develop a relationship?

• 1:10:05Speaker 02

  There have been a few, but every pair has been very, very grateful to have met the other one. They have learned so much about themselves, their medical history, where their habits come from. They've all been very, very pleased to understand their backgrounds. But there have been a few cases. I remember there was one where one was quite religious, someone wasn't. And that didn't really work out very well.

• 1:10:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  I heard this horrible, sad story, a friend of a friend. When she was like six or seven, I think, her twin, I believe identical, was killed. And she was talking about her life since then and how she has such a hard time. In romantic relationships and she said, I think I'm always sort of looking for her.

• 1:10:46Speaker 02

  That's exactly what happens because you expect other people to have that same insight and acceptance and they simply don't. You're always testing this out. I have a long study going on of twins whose twins have passed away and I do find grief intensity higher among the identicals than the fraternal. So it's another approach to the same class of questions we've been talking about all afternoon.

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  It's you.

• 1:11:05Speaker 02

  It's a devastating event and many twins will tell me that they wish they had gone first.

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and I also, yeah, I could imagine you could be underwhelmed with a relationship. If you're an identical twin, like you've experienced a closeness that you would expect to be there romantically and then wouldn't be and be a little underwhelmed with the experience.

• 1:11:24Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And some twins have said, we share things with each other that we'll never share with our husbands. And that's why I think for some twins, it makes sense to marry a twin because then they understand the situation.

• 1:11:35Dax Shepard?

  Yes. I just want to go out on the one I read about, or I guess you discussed them in your TED Talk about the two women that were reunited, the giggle twins. This is my fantasy of if I discovered an identical twin at some point, what was their reaction to meeting each other?

• 1:11:49Speaker 02

  They were thrilled. And the interesting thing about the giggle twins was they, they only giggled in the presence of the other one.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:11:56Speaker 02

  They were either shy women, but they would giggle uncontrollably when they were together. And this was a real problem. I was on a TV show with them once. And, I mean, they wouldn't stop giggling. And finally, the host really had to stop the segment because we weren't getting anywhere.

• 1:12:10Speaker 01

  Oh my.

• 1:12:11Speaker 02

  They had a lot of similarities, those two. They had a very crooked, pinky finger. And they concocted a drink called Twin Sin. I can't remember all the ingredients, but I know that blue curicin was in it.

• 1:12:21Dax Shepard?

  And cream.

• 1:12:22Speaker 02

  And cream, yeah.

• 1:12:23Dax Shepard?

  And you tried it and you're like, this is not a good drink.

• 1:12:25Speaker 02

  It wasn't quite my thing. And they were both very apolitical. They both met their husbands at dances.

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  Were they separated and then?

• 1:12:32Speaker 02

  Yes. They met, I think, in their late twenties, early thirties, something like that.

• 1:12:35Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I lied. It feels like more hijinks and funny business was going on in the fertility world in the seventies and eighties and that we've somewhat straightened this out. Are examples of this declining, separated identical twins, does that happen as much now as it did in the eighties or seventies?

• 1:12:51Speaker 02

  Very hard question to answer because I don't know if it's any less, but I do think it's for different reasons. Twins were separated, say, in Argentina during some political times. I just came back from Greece. Between 1960, 1980, there were a lot of illegal adoptions going on, where twins were born, the hospital would take one, tell the parents the twin had died and sell it to a couple.

• 1:13:13Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:13:14Dax Shepard?

  Oh, boy.

• 1:13:15Speaker 02

  Those kinds of things go on. Do you know what is amazing is when people have IVF, infertility fertilization, they know the chances of twinning are higher. Now we're back to implanting only one embryo because they're better able to manage it. But when it began, they would plant two, three, four sometimes. But anyway, the very first case of twins, the mother gave away the little boy. She kept the little girl. And I'm thinking to myself, how do you do this? You know, when you paid all this money for it, you knew the risks.

• 1:13:39Speaker 01

  Wow, and you obviously wanted a kid so bad you went through this process.

• 1:13:43Speaker 02

  Right, and so to have two is a blessing.

• 1:13:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:45Speaker 02

  But there had been some mistakes. You still read about them where somebody's embryos get wrongly planted or they mix the wrong sperm with the wrong egg or something like that. Those things do happen.

• 1:13:54Dax Shepard?

  Or you find out it was your doctor's sperm.

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was a big thing in early IVF. But yeah, this like switched implanted a different embryo is.

• 1:14:02Dax Shepard?

  I'll hit you with an incredible one. They have not genetically tested their kids. But I have a friend who had a couple kids naturally. Then the wife had some complication during a delivery and she knew the uterus was going to be destroyed and they froze eggs and they had a bank of eggs. And so they implanted one of the eggs and then this daughter is born. Then they have another kid with another egg. Then they have a kid again and the kid comes out. And even me, who's not the parent, I'm like, boy, she looks a lot like, I can't say her name, but the older daughter. And they're like, yes, yes. And this continues to the point where they finally get a hold

• 1:14:45Dax Shepard?

  of the fertility doctor and said, is it possible? That they're identical twins, that those two eggs had split.

• 1:14:53Speaker 02

  Oh, I see what you're saying. So in the Petri dish, something could have split. That is possible. They should do the DNA test.

• 1:14:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:59Dax Shepard?

  They should, and can you imagine, that would be the most fascinating study for you to ever approach is now you have identical twins separated by like six years of age chronologically.

• 1:15:07Speaker 02

  Still, I have criteria for what's an identical twin, because I thought a lot about how twins inform our understanding of human reproductive cloning. And I would not consider them identical twins. Why? They don't share their birthday, and they didn't share a womb. And in fact, if you assign that label to them, it could be a problem.

• 1:15:22Dax Shepard?

  Okay, but you'd still be interested in studying them?

• 1:15:24Speaker 02

  I want them.

• 1:15:25Dax Shepard?

  Because if this is real.

• 1:15:27Speaker 02

  I want them.

• 1:15:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, because if it's real, think about knowing what you will look like in six years, your whole life is such a bizarre.

• 1:15:35Speaker 02

  Or if the older one made a terrible life choice.

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:15:38Speaker 02

  See, that's why, when I talk about human reproductive cloning, I just wrote a big paper on this from a conference. Everyone raises these challenges, and there are certainly challenges that are legitimate, but in some ways, it could be a benefit. Because the parent, who's the donor, could maybe understand the psyche of the child. And maybe help that child along to avoid different pitfalls in life.

• 1:16:00Dax Shepard?

  So this would be an example where someone had a child, the child died, and then they cloned that child?

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  No, the cloning of yourself.

• 1:16:07Speaker 02

  No, you just clone yourself.

• 1:16:08Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay. Oh, raise yourself.

• 1:16:11Speaker 02

  Yes, suppose you're infertile, suppose you're the last person in the family line.

• 1:16:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, what's your position on cloning yourself?

• 1:16:17Speaker 02

  Well, I have no problem with it, because not everybody's gonna do it. We can get women who are 70 years old pregnant with donated embryos. You don't see 70-year-old women running out to have children, do you?

• 1:16:27Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 1:16:28Speaker 02

  People are still gonna want to have children the old-fashioned way. And if you clone yourself, at least you have some knowledge of what you're getting.

• 1:16:34Dax Shepard?

  I would want to clone myself, but I would say that's egomaniacal.

• 1:16:37Speaker 02

  Adoption is a great alternative if you've got an infertile couple, but it's still a bit of a risk. You don't know the genes you're gonna get. This way, at least you know. I mean, it's not predictive, because there's different generations, but still, it's something. And I think that I'm fine with it. We have issues of safety and ethics and financing and decision-making, a lot. But I use the twin model to challenge the challenges that have been raised, which are just provocative and emotionally driven.

• 1:17:02Dax Shepard?

  Yes, and probably religious undertones.

• 1:17:04Speaker 01

  But how interesting, if I cloned, what if I cloned your kid? What if I cloned Delta? Their youngest. That's also very interesting environment, being raised with different parents. It's a similar thing. It's exactly the same thing.

• 1:17:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like twins raised apart.

• 1:17:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:21Speaker 02

  But remember, if you clone somebody, even the don who clones himself, it's not an exact replica. Different generations, there can be cell errors. It's not exactly the same.

• 1:17:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:30Dax Shepard?

  Right. Rarely does your phenotype perfectly match your genotype. Yeah, do you want to have yourself now?

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:17:37Speaker 02

  I don't know why.

• 1:17:38Dax Shepard?

  It feels egomaniacal, right?

• 1:17:39Speaker 01

  It does feel egomaniacal, like I'm just gonna make another one of me.

• 1:17:42Dax Shepard?

  Already the challenge as a parent is to remind yourself, they're not you, they're not an extension of you. Let them be themselves. I mean, how hard would that be when, no, they are you?

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:52Speaker 02

  But can I ask you something? How many parents look at their children and say, "An extension of me"?

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  They do, that's the problem.

• 1:17:58Speaker 02

  They do.

• 1:17:59Dax Shepard?

  Oh, we all do. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:18:00Speaker 02

  And one of the criticisms of cloning is that you see the child's an extension. But I say, ordinary parents do as well.

• 1:18:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you're right. It's not different.

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  It's not different, but it is something.

• 1:18:09Dax Shepard?

  But it's compounded.

• 1:18:10Speaker 01

  It is. It would be, be like, so you're definitely gonna join the play in a couple of years.

• 1:18:15Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  You know, now.

• 1:18:18Speaker 02

  Maybe, maybe not.

• 1:18:19Dax Shepard?

  You could find out some terrible realities, which is like, in my story, had I been supported as a kid, I have this aptitude for driving and if someone had paid for a race team, I would have definitely been a Formula One driver. And I could provide that for my kid and be like, "Oh, I guess I cloned it." You'd find out the hard way.

• 1:18:34Speaker 01

  It's slippery.

• 1:18:36Speaker 02

  Maybe the kid wouldn't have any interest in, in car racing.

• 1:18:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:39Speaker 02

  It's not the sport du jour.

• 1:18:40Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:18:42Speaker 01

  It is slippery, though, because you're almost wanting to give yourself the life you wish you had.

• 1:18:46Dax Shepard?

  Which is what you do as a parent.

• 1:18:47Speaker 02

  But that's all parents do that. All parents do that.

• 1:18:50Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:18:50Speaker 02

  All parents sacrifice.

• 1:18:51Dax Shepard?

  And you do that, and I did it, and then they don't want to do that, because you want what you don't have.

• 1:18:56Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:18:56Dax Shepard?

  Those are unavoidable realities.

• 1:18:58Speaker 02

  So, anything else?

• 1:19:00Dax Shepard?

  No, that was wonderful, Nancy. That was so fun. We've been talking about twins for seven years and dying to have an expert on, and you're just so perfect for that.

• 1:19:08Speaker 02

  Well, I'm glad. I had fun.

• 1:19:16Dax Shepard?

  My host stakes.

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  I hope it's not gonna explode.

• 1:19:22Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I hope it does.

• 1:19:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:19:24Dax Shepard?

  That'd be so viral.

• 1:19:25Speaker 01

  Oh, that's true.

• 1:19:26Dax Shepard?

  There'd be a huge A C explosion.

• 1:19:28Speaker 01

  Yes, that is true.

• 1:19:30Dax Shepard?

  Well, that that thing blew up. And then when all the smoke settled, your sides were shaved.

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  That'd be your dream come true. That's your eleven eleven wish.

• 1:19:42Dax Shepard?

  I'm trying to think of all I'll ever have an anniversary that would warrant you. Or maybe if I'm I get diagnosed with something terminal.

• 1:19:50Speaker 01

  Don't say that.

• 1:19:51Dax Shepard?

  You could shave your sides, so.

• 1:19:53Speaker 01

  I'm not doing it.

• 1:19:55Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you won't.

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  Now, because you because of this, then you jink. I don't know where to knock. I don't know how to do it.

• 1:20:00Dax Shepard?

  Deathbed wish you won't shave the sides?

• 1:20:02Speaker 01

  No, because you you implanted this. You made it happen. I'll blame you. Only if you're.

• 1:20:08Dax Shepard?

  For your fun new life.

• 1:20:10Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:20:12Dax Shepard?

  Wait till you see how your life takes off once you have that shaved sides. You're gonna be like going to different clubs and stuff.

• 1:20:18Speaker 01

  I am.

• 1:20:19Dax Shepard?

  You're gonna have a whole new chapter of your life.

• 1:20:20Speaker 01

  I am very happy with my life. Speaking of that, um, I've been playing a lot of Solitaire. I just learned it.

• 1:20:28Dax Shepard?

  With a deck of cards?

• 1:20:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:20:30Dax Shepard?

  You just learned Solitaire?

• 1:20:32Speaker 01

  Yes, and I'm still not sure I have the rules a hundred percent correct.

• 1:20:36Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:20:37Speaker 01

  But I love it. I've been playing it a lot, and I told Eric that I've been playing a lot, and he said, oh, I'm sorry. You know, as he is, as he does.

• 1:20:50Dax Shepard?

  It doesn't sound it when you learn someone's been playing a lot of Solitaire, it it does make you a little concerned about that.

• 1:20:57Speaker 01

  I know, but that's like a weird stigma. If you're watching TV by yourself, no one says that. It's like the game by yourself thing really makes people.

• 1:21:06Dax Shepard?

  Feel bad. It does. Yeah, it makes me like feel like you're bored.

• 1:21:11Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:21:12Dax Shepard?

  And lonely.

• 1:21:14Speaker 01

  I know, but this is crazy. This is crazy.

• 1:21:16Dax Shepard?

  And isolating and.

• 1:21:20Speaker 01

  It's so wrong. It's like, instead of what everyone else is doing is just staring at their phone and scrolling Instagram all day. I'm like, I'm gonna get my brain going.

• 1:21:29Dax Shepard?

  Well, when Eric tells you he plays video games all day, how do you feel?

• 1:21:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't like that. But I think that's, because that's like screen. Like

• 1:21:37Dax Shepard?

  Screen time?

• 1:21:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, if he was playing

• 1:21:40Dax Shepard?

  Solitaire for six hours a day?

• 1:21:42Speaker 01

  On his phone?

• 1:21:43Dax Shepard?

  I mean, look, however anyone wants to pass their time on this trip on, on planet Earth.

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:49Dax Shepard?

  That's fine. It does make someone feel sad in the same way that they, someone played video games six hours of the day.

• 1:21:55Speaker 01

  Whoa, but that's so

• 1:21:57Dax Shepard?

  Like reading a book is obviously gonna be beneficial to you.

• 1:22:01Speaker 01

  So is Solitaire. Solitaire is a game for your brain.

• 1:22:05Dax Shepard?

  Kinda.

• 1:22:07Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 1:22:08Dax Shepard?

  I mean, it's not that hard, right?

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  Well, I

• 1:22:12Dax Shepard?

  And you get lucky or not?

• 1:22:13Speaker 01

  Maybe I'm stupid. Like, I don't think it's that easy. In fact, it's not easy at all. I don't win like most of the games.

• 1:22:20Dax Shepard?

  Right. But, but it's not like there's some crazy way to play it, right? There's a

• 1:22:25Speaker 01

  Like strategy?

• 1:22:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you kind of either get lucky with

• 1:22:28Speaker 01

  I think there's a tiny bit of strategy.

• 1:22:31Dax Shepard?

  I think there's a tiny bit. I think people can be bad at it.

• 1:22:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:35Dax Shepard?

  But I think you can be perfect at it pretty soon.

• 1:22:38Speaker 05

  Are you doing three card draw or one card draw?

• 1:22:41Speaker 01

  Three. It's hard.

• 1:22:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. Three makes it a little more challenging.

• 1:22:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. I didn't even know that's what it was called. Three card draw.

• 1:22:49Dax Shepard?

  Or one card draw. Rob, are you playing a lot of Solitaire by yourself?

• 1:22:53Speaker 05

  I mean, my family was big card game people, so I've played a lot of Solitaire. And double Solitaire and triple Solitaire.

• 1:23:01Speaker 01

  Cause that's with other people?

• 1:23:03Speaker 05

  Yeah. And you have the aces up top in the middle and you're kind of racing.

• 1:23:07Dax Shepard?

  Well, I stand corrected. It sounds like it's a pretty good time.

• 1:23:10Speaker 01

  It's, it's

• 1:23:10Dax Shepard?

  It does, I agree with him though, that it does sound a little sad.

• 1:23:14Speaker 01

  This is upsetting.

• 1:23:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:16Speaker 01

  It's because it's.

• 1:23:17Dax Shepard?

  You're right. If someone's watching TV, whatever. But minimally.

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  Or on their phone.

• 1:23:22Dax Shepard?

  If they watch TV, they could watch the same show as a friend and then they could chat about it. Whereas no one's going to talk to you about your solitary game.

• 1:23:30Speaker 01

  So what?

• 1:23:30Dax Shepard?

  It was just you. I mean, it's called Solitaire.

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it's one player.

• 1:23:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, because it's solitary.

• 1:23:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, because instead of just sitting and watching TV or being on your phone.

• 1:23:42Dax Shepard?

  Or even a book.

• 1:23:43Speaker 01

  Why is a book better? So that's, yeah.

• 1:23:45Dax Shepard?

  Because it's going to educate you, potentially.

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  Not necessarily, but sure, maybe, maybe.

• 1:23:51Dax Shepard?

  All the ones I'm reading. Well, I do. I just read a bunch of biography.

• 1:23:55Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:23:55Dax Shepard?

  I learn about a time period and I learn about an industry.

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  It's very in you, okay? Because like, there's so much fiction.

• 1:24:04Dax Shepard?

  You're right. And but those, so even you're on all fours. You read it. You talked about it a ton. A lot of your friends read it. You guys got going about it. It like, it was this whole social event, reading that book. Whereas if you have solitary and someone else like, I played two, and go, did you, did you win? I guess.

• 1:24:27Speaker 01

  Rob and I just had a great conversation.

• 1:24:29Dax Shepard?

  That was, well, okay, that was.

• 1:24:32Speaker 01

  You know.

• 1:24:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. You guys did have that great conversation a second ago.

• 1:24:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was really good and.

• 1:24:38Dax Shepard?

  There's just no one's ever going to talk to you. You're not going to bond with anybody over, with the exception of this great conversation you guys just had. Bond over your solitary game or the video game you played because I wasn't playing the game with you.

• 1:24:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, but so that's also a you thing. Like, it's not about what I'm going to talk of.

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  It's not about, everything I do isn't for a conversation.

• 1:25:05Dax Shepard?

  Right, right.

• 1:25:07Speaker 01

  It's to, it's to engage in my day.

• 1:25:11Dax Shepard?

  It is time for just you. That's nice.

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  It's lovely.

• 1:25:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Oh, sorry. I was just being honest.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  I really, I'm shocked because I actually really thought you were gonna be like, God, Eric, like, he just will say the craziest thing and that's so silly.

• 1:25:26Dax Shepard?

  But it does.

• 1:25:27Speaker 01

  But.

• 1:25:28Dax Shepard?

  It does sound, Rob, when you just hear someone's playing a lot of Solitaire, do you, does it make you sad or happy, or neither?

• 1:25:35Speaker 05

  Uh, neither.

• 1:25:36Dax Shepard?

  Neither.

• 1:25:37Speaker 01

  That's the right answer. It doesn't need to make anyone happy and it, and it doesn't need to make anyone sad. It's just something I've been doing. Like, I'm, I've also been watching Mr. Beast.

• 1:25:47Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you have?

• 1:25:48Speaker 01

  Mr. Beast Games. Beast Games.

• 1:25:51Dax Shepard?

  The Beast Games?

• 1:25:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:52Dax Shepard?

  And you like it?

• 1:25:53Speaker 01

  Okay, so I'm so behind, obviously, this, we're like months behind.

• 1:25:57Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah. Maybe a year, yeah.

• 1:25:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. But we, we, I had a dinner while you were gone. We missed you guys, but it was a friend pod dinner out, adults, so fun. Um, and see, I have so much, I have so much

• 1:26:16Dax Shepard?

  Social time, yeah.

• 1:26:17Speaker 01

  interaction that I need.

• 1:26:18Dax Shepard?

  Some solitary time.

• 1:26:20Speaker 01

  Because otherwise, the Solitaire time is work. So I need solitary time that's not those things. That's playing.

• 1:26:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. So anyway.

• 1:26:29Dax Shepard?

  Or maybe I'll try it. It's been a long time since I played Solitaire.

• 1:26:34Speaker 01

  I mean, and to be fair, like, I've been also playing with people. Like, if I'm out with Jess or with Anna, sometimes we'll play together.

• 1:26:43Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:26:43Speaker 01

  Not dual. We'll like both be playing.

• 1:26:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:46Speaker 01

  That's fun, too.

• 1:26:47Dax Shepard?

  Now, your phone is interesting. That's a good analogy.

• 1:26:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:51Dax Shepard?

  In general, I also think your phone's kind of a time suck, but.

• 1:26:55Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:26:57Dax Shepard?

  You do see thing, we all see the same things on Instagram, so that's also a bonding conversation thing.

• 1:27:03Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, but it's bad for your brain.

• 1:27:06Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:27:06Speaker 01

  And this is good for your brain.

• 1:27:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, potentially.

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  Exactly. Your brain is working.

• 1:27:12Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:27:12Speaker 01

  You're thinking.

• 1:27:13Dax Shepard?

  That's true. Problem solving. Oh, please hold.

• 1:27:18Speaker 01

  Forgot to put, I'm re-entering too. Um, okay, anyway, so Beast Games.

• 1:27:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, tell me.

• 1:27:25Speaker 01

  So have you watched it?

• 1:27:26Dax Shepard?

  I tried, I couldn't do it.

• 1:27:29Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:27:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I don't.

• 1:27:31Speaker 01

  With the kids?

• 1:27:32Dax Shepard?

  I don't enjoy, yeah, the kids watched the whole thing.

• 1:27:35Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:27:35Dax Shepard?

  I don't enjoy watching people have to make decision, compromising decisions for money. I don't, I don't like it. But I understand the appeal.

• 1:27:47Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 1:27:48Dax Shepard?

  But I.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  Did you like Squid Game?

• 1:27:50Dax Shepard?

  Yes, quite a bit.

• 1:27:52Speaker 01

  And Squid Game, the, the.

• 1:27:54Dax Shepard?

  Reality show? Yes.

• 1:27:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's the same, it's, I mean, it literally is the same thing. Except there's more money on the table here. He, it's the most money they've ever given out.

• 1:28:06Dax Shepard?

  More dastardly things, like it's almost every rounds, you have to betray people, right?

• 1:28:10Speaker 01

  Well, ish, but that would, that happened on Squid Games.

• 1:28:15Dax Shepard?

  Did it?

• 1:28:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it did. Well, okay, so the beginning, sorry spoiler, I, I mean, I'm not finished, so I can't really spoil very much, but um, the, right when they enter, there's like a thousand people there or something.

• 1:28:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's outrageous, the episode I saw where they're all standing in that grid.

• 1:28:33Speaker 01

  Yes, they're all standing in a grid, there's the chance to win five million dollars in this game, the most they've ever given out on a game show.

• 1:28:42Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:28:43Speaker 01

  Um, in addition, there's a side challenge that happens where they could win a one point eight million dollar island, private island.

• 1:28:50Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 1:28:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:28:51Dax Shepard?

  It's probably more work than it's worth, but.

• 1:28:53Speaker 01

  So I won't spoil what happens there, but um, I am past that part. So, okay, at the beginning, they have the opportunity when they first arrive, before the game even starts, there's two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. And he says, if, if you wanna go home now. Go over there. If one person goes over there, they get all $250,000. If two people goes, they split it. If three, it starts splitting.

• 1:29:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:23Speaker 01

  And some people, like enough people did it so that it was like $21,000 each people got.

• 1:29:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:30Speaker 01

  I was like, fuck, yes. I, that is definitely how I'm playing that game.

• 1:29:37Dax Shepard?

  Right. Get your 21 grand and get out of there.

• 1:29:39Speaker 01

  Get out. You haven't wasted any, you got, that's literally free money. You haven't had to do anything. You haven't had to hurt anyone or betray anyone or do anything physical.

• 1:29:48Dax Shepard?

  So like 11 ish people pick that or 12 or something? Okay.

• 1:29:52Speaker 01

  So I was.

• 1:29:54Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they're probably happy now, a year later.

• 1:29:58Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, but then it depends because there are other opportunities throughout to make money.

• 1:30:05Dax Shepard?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:30:06Speaker 01

  Like one guy ends up, I think this is the person who really won. Obviously someone who wins $5 million is great, right? But, um, and the person who wins the island, great. But there's still a lot of like stress and strife in that.

• 1:30:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:23Speaker 01

  One guy leaves with $450,000 and kind of in this sort of easy ish way. And I was like, that's, he really won.

• 1:30:33Dax Shepard?

  He won because he didn't have to go through much.

• 1:30:35Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:30:35Dax Shepard?

  And he's still got a big old chunk of change.

• 1:30:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:30:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:38Speaker 01

  But I would, I would definitely be the person who leaves first day, gets my money. Something's better than nothing.

• 1:30:45Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh. Bird in a hand's worth two in a bush.

• 1:30:47Speaker 01

  Yes, because also like the chances of nothing are so high.

• 1:30:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, thousand to one.

• 1:30:53Speaker 01

  You gotta get something. So that's how I would play. Would you, what would you do? Would you keep playing?

• 1:30:59Dax Shepard?

  No, I feel like I would try to get money midway through.

• 1:31:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:02Dax Shepard?

  I'm a pessimist though, right? I wouldn't think, I'm not the type that'd be like, I'm gonna win this whole thing. I don't have that mindset.

• 1:31:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is so weird.

• 1:31:09Dax Shepard?

  I know.

• 1:31:10Speaker 01

  You're mixed messies.

• 1:31:11Dax Shepard?

  I know, I'm this weird mix of competitiveness and I surrender easy.

• 1:31:15Speaker 01

  I feel like you would actually be very good in it because there's like mine, you know, there's like brain stuff and there's physical challenges.

• 1:31:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:27Speaker 01

  Um, one of them, they're on a team and they like have to pull a monster truck like with their body.

• 1:31:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:33Speaker 01

  And get it over speed bumps and stuff. Um, I think you'd like that one.

• 1:31:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. Physical. That sounds fun.

• 1:31:40Speaker 01

  There's like sprinting. Anyway, so, but there is a lot of betrayal and then there's a lot of self-sacrifice. And it was making me think a lot about that, like the people who, they just walk away to help other people. There's also, and I'm, because I don't think this is spoiler enough, people have heard about this, there's a challenge where there's four li- there's all these people, right, four lines of them. And then those are the teams. And then the four teams have to pick a captain from each team to represent the team, basically. And they go up and and number amount starts increasing on the clock.

• 1:32:21Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:32:22Speaker 01

  A money amount. And they, if they press the button, they get to keep that amount of money and stay in the game, but their whole team gets eliminated.

• 1:32:34Dax Shepard?

  Oh, boy.

• 1:32:36Speaker 01

  So they're picking people who are gonna be like, no, I'm definitely, I promise I won't, I just won't press it.

• 1:32:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:45Speaker 01

  And that's so much trust. How high do you think that dollar amount gets to?

• 1:32:51Dax Shepard?

  Five hundred thousand.

• 1:32:53Speaker 01

  A million dollars? Nobody presses it.

• 1:32:56Dax Shepard?

  Nobody pressed it.

• 1:32:58Speaker 01

  I was so moved and like, but then like later in the game, I'm like, then they leave?

• 1:33:07Dax Shepard?

  That's probably why I don't like the game.

• 1:33:09Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:33:10Dax Shepard?

  We're probably getting to the-

• 1:33:12Speaker 01

  Because you think it's unfair?

• 1:33:13Dax Shepard?

  No, I think I know I would be selfish.

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:20Dax Shepard?

  And I'd feel bad about being selfish. And when I watch it, it's just like-

• 1:33:24Speaker 01

  Like there are good people out there?

• 1:33:26Dax Shepard?

  All these opportunities. And I just picture me at 24.

• 1:33:30Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:33:30Dax Shepard?

  And if I could have had a million dollars and these strangers got nothing, and I'd already convinced myself they're not getting anything anyways.

• 1:33:36Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:33:37Dax Shepard?

  Like, that's probably why I don't like it, because I know I would probably be selfish.

• 1:33:40Speaker 01

  But you probably wouldn't get picked.

• 1:33:44Dax Shepard?

  Probably not, yeah.

• 1:33:45Speaker 01

  Because do you think you'd be the type, because yes, you might be the type to press it. But would you be the type to be like, exactly?

• 1:33:54Dax Shepard?

  No, so wherever my shadiness on the spectrum exists, I'm a six or whatever.

• 1:33:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:59Dax Shepard?

  Where like, I, I think I'd be unhappy with my decisions, but also I wouldn't, I, I wouldn't have the full lying thing. It's like, let's put it this way, I, I, I don't want to say a regret because I just love, I love everyone I ever had sex with. I feel grateful for it.

• 1:34:15Speaker 01

  Great.

• 1:34:16Dax Shepard?

  I do.

• 1:34:16Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:34:17Dax Shepard?

  So I don't really have regrets like I want to take any back.

• 1:34:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:34:21Dax Shepard?

  But I recognize some girls liked me a lot and I hurt a lot of girls.

• 1:34:26Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:34:27Dax Shepard?

  And I hate that part.

• 1:34:28Speaker 01

  Sure. That's nice.

• 1:34:29Dax Shepard?

  But then when I tell myself is, well, I've never been one that was like, I love you. I'm in love with you. I want to be with, like, I've never.

• 1:34:37Speaker 01

  But were you saying it with like your actions?

• 1:34:40Dax Shepard?

  That's where it gets confusing is that I, oh, we've, we've already talked about this. I already have kind of a comfort level of talking about emotions and stuff.

• 1:34:50Speaker 01

  Intimacy.

• 1:34:51Dax Shepard?

  That I do think was misleading.

• 1:34:52Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:34:53Dax Shepard?

  I think it felt unique for some people in a way that signaled we're, we're in love.

• 1:34:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:34:59Dax Shepard?

  I feel bad about that.

• 1:35:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:01Dax Shepard?

  But also I feel good about the fact that I also was never deceptive. Like a lot of dudes I know, they told girls they loved them, told me they didn't have a girlfriend.

• 1:35:08Speaker 01

  Straight up lie.

• 1:35:09Dax Shepard?

  No, I told people I had a girlfriend. I told people.

• 1:35:12Speaker 01

  But straight up lying is different than deception. Lying is a part of deception.

• 1:35:17Dax Shepard?

  Well, no, I didn't deceive either. I didn't act like I was more into them than I was, which a lot of guys did.

• 1:35:23Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:35:24Dax Shepard?

  Like a lot of girls are like, he told me he loved me.

• 1:35:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's the lying.

• 1:35:27Dax Shepard?

  I never did that.

• 1:35:28Speaker 01

  That's lying. But if you with your actions showed love.

• 1:35:34Dax Shepard?

  Well, I'm just being me.

• 1:35:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:35:36Dax Shepard?

  I'm being authentic to who I am. I can talk on the phone for three hours, like.

• 1:35:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:42Dax Shepard?

  For some guys, the only person they can talk on the phone for three hours to is a person they fall in love with.

• 1:35:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:35:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So I have like a mixed bag of guilt about that.

• 1:35:52Speaker 01

  Sure. I understand. So, but yeah, I don't think you would be in front of the team, I don't think, and be like. Guys, I swear.

• 1:36:00Dax Shepard?

  I'm the most honest person here.

• 1:36:02Speaker 01

  I'm so honest.

• 1:36:02Dax Shepard?

  I'm so selfless.

• 1:36:03Speaker 01

  I never, it doesn't matter if that thing gets to five million dollars, I'm not pressing.

• 1:36:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:07Speaker 01

  You wouldn't say that.

• 1:36:08Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 1:36:08Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:36:09Dax Shepard?

  No, unless I really believed it. And maybe I could, maybe I could fall in love with everyone there.

• 1:36:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:36:16Dax Shepard?

  The way you do on a film set or something.

• 1:36:18Speaker 01

  But do you think you, you would believe it and then get up there and be like, oh no, like I have to?

• 1:36:24Dax Shepard?

  Again, I was, like I was stealing stuff. I was, I had bad, I felt in.

• 1:36:31Speaker 01

  Entitled. I know. That was, that's the other thing that's interesting is some of these people are like, I meant to be here. It's, it's working out for me. And I'm like, because all those people left on their own volition, like it's not you're meant to be here. It's people's sacrifice for you and now you're here.

• 1:36:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:50Speaker 01

  And I don't like that, that there's no like, wow, a lot of people gave up a lot of opportunities for me to be standing here.

• 1:36:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And I guess I feel like I've only stayed as moral as I have with a lot of effort. And I just don't need any situations tempting my morals. I'm just too insecure about my own moral compass then.

• 1:37:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:13Dax Shepard?

  Not now I could play the game.

• 1:37:14Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, obviously now.

• 1:37:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:17Speaker 01

  That we, yeah, we can't think about when you have means, like obviously that's a different scenario.

• 1:37:25Dax Shepard?

  I think about this all the time though. It really is like, I don't think anyone really even knows who they are. In a, in a sense.

• 1:37:32Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 1:37:33Dax Shepard?

  Like, like I am, um, I'm the product of so much good fortune. I think a lot of people would describe me as super generous. I was also super greedy and wanted money so fucking bad I would have stole. So in this abundance, I've been able to help a lot of people.

• 1:37:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:51Dax Shepard?

  And I'm a version of myself now that I'm quite proud of, but I have to be honest about the, I've been in a situation where it's a lot easier for me to do that now.

• 1:38:00Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:38:01Dax Shepard?

  So like, that's another thing. It's not really a, a fair to judge the people in the situations who are really desperate.

• 1:38:07Speaker 01

  No, I know. That's why this is complicated. That's why it's so interesting. It's like, I don't really blame a lot of the people who are, I mean, they're like, I'm here to win. And like, I understand that. That's why they're there. They're there for a game.

• 1:38:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:20Speaker 01

  But there's also like. Invisible lines that are just getting crossed, like they're these two brothers that there's this one game where they're broken up into threes and then they have to go in this cube and decide, one person has to leave.

• 1:38:35Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  Or they all leave. And within five hours, they have to decide this, right? And in one of the cubes is these two brothers and this like young girl and they're be, they're so

• 1:38:47Dax Shepard?

  Manipulative?

• 1:38:48Speaker 01

  So manipulative and horrible to her and like bullying and bad and I was like, I hate you guys.

• 1:38:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:58Speaker 01

  And I understand you're there to win, but this is fucked up. Like there's, there are lines.

• 1:39:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. I guess what I'm saying is, and this show is not, I'm not in judgment of this show.

• 1:39:09Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I know. Yeah.

• 1:39:10Dax Shepard?

  But overall, I think people are pretty critical of people in rough situations that have never been in those situations. And that's a little bit of a s- a sensitive spot for me, right?

• 1:39:20Speaker 01

  I fully agree.

• 1:39:22Dax Shepard?

  Like when people are judging how people are acting in the fucking white trash neighborhood or in here, I'm like, yeah, you just, you, you're not there. You really gotta be there to.

• 1:39:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I absolutely agree. I think over time, they're hearing people's experiences and having my own, like I don't, there used to be, I used to feel like, oh, there are things I would absolutely never do. I would just never do them. It would never happen.

• 1:39:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:50Speaker 01

  And now I don't think that. I think there, there are scenarios in which I would do anything.

• 1:39:54Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:39:55Speaker 01

  And knowing that is helpful because it gives grace to everyone else who's doing stuff.

• 1:40:02Dax Shepard?

  So just when I see a situation that's been constructed to test people who are

• 1:40:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:08Dax Shepard?

  vulnerable, it's hard for me to enjoy it.

• 1:40:10Speaker 01

  I understand. But there is like, there is real, there are people, yeah, that are like, I'm gonna go. Like, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna do it for the, these people.

• 1:40:21Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:40:22Speaker 01

  And it's, that's beautiful. Like, and it is a sweet reminder that we can make those hard decisions. We can make the decision to be selfless.

• 1:40:37Speaker 04

  Stay tuned for Armchair Expert if you desire.

• 1:40:43Dax Shepard?

  We get support from ZipRecruiter. Oh, get recruiting. So I went down this rabbit hole the other day on real holiday jobs that exist and I couldn't stop. Somebody out there is hiring a ham glazer, a professional ham glazer. Another place is hiring a lead elf, implying a whole hierarchy of elves I had never even considered. Here's the thing, these jobs need real skills. People like that are hard to find. Whether you're hiring for one of these roles or any other role, the best way to find qualified people who are genuinely excited about your role is on ZipRecruiter. And right now, you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/dax. Plus, ZipRecruiter has a new feature that

• 1:41:24Dax Shepard?

  shows you the most interested qualified candidates first, so you meet the right people faster. No wonder ZipRecruiter is the number one rated hiring site based on G2. Let ZipRecruiter find the right people for your roles, seasonal or otherwise. Try it for free today at ziprecruiter.com/dax. At ziprecruiter.com/dax, meet your match on ZipRecruiter.

• 1:41:57Speaker 01

  One of the guys who didn't click the million, he was like, maybe gonna, did he get kicked off? Or maybe he was about to get kicked off, whatever, something. And Mr. Beast was like, do you wish you had taken the million?

• 1:42:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:13Speaker 01

  And he was like, I was happy with who I was before I was offered that. I'll be happy afterwards. And I was like,

• 1:42:20Dax Shepard?

  Well, that's a great attitude, but heartbreaking.

• 1:42:24Speaker 01

  I know. Then I really wanted him to have a million dollars.

• 1:42:27Dax Shepard?

  I just want everyone there to get a million dollars.

• 1:42:29Speaker 01

  I know. But, um, yeah, and also just people.

• 1:42:36Speaker 01

  People are there for a lot of different reasons. There's like horrible sad stories. There's just like, I'm here to play this game, which is, I think, fine.

• 1:42:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:42:45Speaker 01

  Then that becomes tricky. It's like, do they not get to because this other person has a like worse?

• 1:42:51Dax Shepard?

  To trigger any of your?

• 1:42:52Speaker 01

  Not until now.

• 1:42:54Dax Shepard?

  Oh, well, I, I can see where.

• 1:42:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. It's like this single person versus a family.

• 1:42:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know that's a zone for you.

• 1:43:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's not fair. So, I don't like that at all. Um, anyway, it's interesting.

• 1:43:12Dax Shepard?

  It is.

• 1:43:13Speaker 01

  It's an interesting thought, like, human experiment.

• 1:43:15Dax Shepard?

  Well, I'm swirling with all this because, again, as I've updated you several different times, I have really enjoyed being somewhere else for two months and really observing how everyone does everything. I've been finding it endlessly fascinating.

• 1:43:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:29Dax Shepard?

  I really feel like I'm doing an ethnography on Nashville. And I got into a fun conversation over dinner with Hayes, Hughie's wife, about kids. And I'm like, look, I, I see that kids are raised differently here in the South. And I also see the value of it. And I also have a different kind of philosophy.

• 1:43:57Speaker 01

  What do you think the philosophy is there?

• 1:43:59Dax Shepard?

  Well, like there, most of the kids all say, they'll say, Miss Kristen or Miss, right? You always say, Miss or Mister. So that's like deference and, and, and, and respect, respect for elders, which is lovely. That's a great thing. I think I'm really good at assessing what a potential outcome is that I have to take very seriously and work backwards from that. I think I'm a good reverse engineer.

• 1:44:19Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:44:19Dax Shepard?

  So I'm like, look, I know Lincoln. I'm the same way. It was a big thing for me that my vote wasn't the same as everyone else's. I didn't understand why my being younger meant I had less value in any situation. It was very hard for me. And when my dad wanted to break that. Uh, spirit of mine, I just wrote him off.

• 1:44:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:44:40Dax Shepard?

  And it was so easy for me. Um, it was hard for him and super easy for me because I'm so determined. And if you fuck with me and try to tell me I can't be who I'm gonna be, I'll just, I'll go nuclear.

• 1:44:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:44:52Dax Shepard?

  It's a character defect. I don't like that I'm this way.

• 1:44:54Speaker 01

  But again, again, again, when we've talked about this before, and I do want to say that, that you're not like your dad. Your dad left you. There are lots of reasons for you to have a skepticism of, of his authority. Like you are not like that.

• 1:45:09Dax Shepard?

  That's true, but I think I would have been the same even if he was better, right? Like, I think.

• 1:45:17Speaker 01

  I don't know. We don't know.

• 1:45:18Dax Shepard?

  I think if I get it in my head, you're trying to prevent me from having the experience I deserve to have here. And my autonomy to choose my experience. If I think you're standing in the way of that, then it's not hard for me to be away from you.

• 1:45:37Speaker 01

  So interesting though, because yeah, and like,

• 1:45:42Speaker 01

  it might be a disservice to getting along with other people. Like if it's just like, it's my way and I'm gonna do it and I'm not gonna listen, like.

• 1:45:51Dax Shepard?

  This is a character defect. This is not, this is not a virtue of mine. I'm, I, I know that this is a character defect.

• 1:45:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:45:58Dax Shepard?

  Um, no, in my head, I, it sounds different than you just framed it, right? For me, which is like, I'm not gonna ask you to be anything you're not. And in respect, you're not gonna ask me to be anything I'm not, right? Like, I, I think I have an ethic in my mind that is very defendable.

• 1:46:15Speaker 01

  Right, but there's cooperation and there's, there's sacra, I mean, there's, life isn't just we both exist in our, in our bubbles as we are, like.

• 1:46:25Dax Shepard?

  There's compromise.

• 1:46:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:46:28Speaker 01

  We're not on islands.

• 1:46:29Dax Shepard?

  And you have to really trust that the person you're compromising with has your best interests in mind, whatever.

• 1:46:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:34Dax Shepard?

  These are, this is, this is character defect.

• 1:46:36Speaker 01

  No, yeah, this is just.

• 1:46:37Dax Shepard?

  This is not my virtue of mine.

• 1:46:38Speaker 01

  Right, this is interesting, yeah.

• 1:46:39Dax Shepard?

  But I, I think Lincoln has that ability. And I think her and I are both, we have the same condition, which is like, we both think we have the best plan. We thought this out for a long time and here it is. And isn't that great? So I was like, I'm just working backwards from reality, which is if I tried to do this parenting style, call everyone miss and mister, act this way, go up there, no, you know, all this stuff.

• 1:47:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:08Dax Shepard?

  I just won't have a relationship with her. She'll just, she'll just write me off. She won't, she's not gonna bend. I'm not gonna bend or break this girl, nor am I gonna try to.

• 1:47:18Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:47:19Dax Shepard?

  I, now, look, that's totally different calculus with Delta. I don't have those similarities with her where it's problematic. So I just go, do you think you, as a southern kid who acted that way, did anything different than I did as a southern kid? Did you drink and did you hook up with boys? Do you do all the things you weren't supposed to do? And I'm like, yeah, everyone does the same shit.

• 1:47:45Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:47:46Dax Shepard?

  I don't want my kids to lie about it.

• 1:47:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:49Dax Shepard?

  That's, that's it.

• 1:47:49Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 1:47:50Dax Shepard?

  All I'm after is like, I have some sense of what's really going on and they feel safe to let me in on that. And so it's a trade off. It's all a trade off. Yeah, my kids are probably more difficult at times in public. Like, they're gonna fight back and I'm gonna have to hear their case in court.

• 1:48:08Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:48:09Dax Shepard?

  But hopefully they're not, they don't feel like they have got to hide stuff from me.

• 1:48:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:13Dax Shepard?

  And pretend they're someone that, other than who they are.

• 1:48:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:16Dax Shepard?

  And I don't think one's better than the other. It's just like, whatever trade offs you are comfortable with.

• 1:48:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:23Dax Shepard?

  And that's the one I'm comfortable with. And it's, it's all interesting. I just, I think it's all, I'm just very aware of like, I think so often people want to say, this way's better or that way's better, or they do it wrong there, or they do it right here. And I just look at it like, oh yeah, everything's got trade offs. Everything's got, there's a ton of stuff that comes with that. That's awesome. I see it.

• 1:48:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:46Dax Shepard?

  It's enviable. And then there's other stuff that I don't want. And I don't, it's not worth that cost. But I don't know.

• 1:48:52Speaker 01

  It's interesting. And everyone's triggered in different ways by the different options out there, I guess. But like, I don't like having to call adults mister and miss.

• 1:49:05Speaker 01

  And that type of thing at all.

• 1:49:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:08Speaker 01

  Because it's also teaching kids that the adults are always right. That they like they just just by the fact that they're adults, they deserve.

• 1:49:21Dax Shepard?

  That's my other baggage with it, right? Which is like, no, the adults I knew, quite a few of them should not have been respected or trusted or listened to or obeyed.

• 1:49:30Speaker 01

  Well, right.

• 1:49:31Dax Shepard?

  So, once you've had that experience, you're like, that's not really a good policy.

• 1:49:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, when you get into a scenario where it's like you learn that all these adults are hurting children and they're teaching the kids to be like. Yes, sir. Like, that's a problem. You need to also.

• 1:49:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:47Speaker 01

  Be pretty clear that not all people are deserve to be listened to or respected. But also, like, to me, politeness, politeness is a big southern thing.

• 1:49:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:59Speaker 01

  And I do think that's really important.

• 1:50:02Dax Shepard?

  I love it.

• 1:50:03Speaker 01

  It's, I think it's so important.

• 1:50:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, their little kids are always like, yes, ma'am. Thank you, ma'am. You know, and I love it.

• 1:50:09Speaker 01

  And they don't even have, but to me politeness doesn't have to do with like the authority. It's just like. We're, we're generally gonna be nice to people.

• 1:50:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, we're gonna be civil.

• 1:50:19Speaker 01

  We're gonna be civil.

• 1:50:20Dax Shepard?

  Cause it's hard for everyone to live together.

• 1:50:23Speaker 01

  We're just gonna be civil and polite. Like, when someone is serving you a meal, you say thank you. That's a nice thing that happened. Like, the manners, basic manners and politeness, to me, is much different than like. You should respect your elders or you need to listen to everything they say and take it as the, you know, like, that's a different thing.

• 1:50:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:46Speaker 01

  But it gets convoluted.

• 1:50:48Dax Shepard?

  It does. It does. Again, there's nice sides and then there's other sides where I'm like, yeah, well, you know. Time will tell how all these.

• 1:50:56Speaker 01

  How everyone ends up.

• 1:50:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:58Speaker 01

  Everyone will end up great. I mean, that's, yeah, everyone will be fine.

• 1:51:02Dax Shepard?

  But I'm loving it.

• 1:51:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:04Dax Shepard?

  Also, so I down there say, yes, ma'am, a lot and yes, sir. And I like it.

• 1:51:09Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:51:09Dax Shepard?

  It kind of, this is the other reality. It's like the thing you and I have debated in the past about like asking your future father in law for permission.

• 1:51:17Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:51:17Dax Shepard?

  It's like, I get that the premise is flawed for sure. And then I know the result of having done that, which is lovely.

• 1:51:27Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:51:28Dax Shepard?

  And I think a lot of the things fall under that category where it's just like, it's confusing. Like, do I, I, I, do I reject the premise or am I rejecting the outcome of it? Cause those are both valid ways. It's continuer utilitarianism. It's like.

• 1:51:43Speaker 01

  Well, the outcome for you, you like the outcome for you and you like the outcome for her.

• 1:51:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I can only judge it from me. When I call the woman ma'am at the gas station, I like the outcome, you know?

• 1:51:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, for you, yeah.

• 1:51:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:59Speaker 01

  But, but.

• 1:52:00Dax Shepard?

  And her.

• 1:52:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, cause she seemed, seemingly liked it, right?

• 1:52:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:52:04Speaker 01

  So that's like, but the premise of the asking the parents for the daughter's hand in marriage is about the daughter's reaction. So if like, if, for me, it's if, if I am gonna, if someone's gonna propose to me, I want them to ask me.

• 1:52:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and they'll have to.

• 1:52:27Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 1:52:28Dax Shepard?

  You can't get married without asking.

• 1:52:30Speaker 01

  No, no, no. Ask me, hey, is it important to you that I talk to your dad?

• 1:52:36Dax Shepard?

  Not ask you to marry you.

• 1:52:37Speaker 01

  Exactly, that I talk to your dad or how, how do you, how do you want me to go about this?

• 1:52:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:43Speaker 01

  And then I'd be like, not important to them or me.

• 1:52:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:47Speaker 01

  And definitely if you're gonna do it, which you sure, if you want, if that's important to you, fine, but you better talk to both of them.

• 1:52:54Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:52:54Speaker 01

  Everyone's gonna have their own rules for it and it's just asking the woman who you're marrying, what she wants.

• 1:53:02Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:53:03Speaker 01

  As opposed to these men just decide, making decisions on their own. That's the, that's where the premise is faulty.

• 1:53:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you don't like the notion of the, it's the father's right to give the daughter to a man.

• 1:53:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that.

• 1:53:16Dax Shepard?

  And that is, I agree.

• 1:53:18Speaker 01

  And the husband's right to be like. Like, I'm want, I

• 1:53:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so that's the premise, right? So that's what I'm saying.

• 1:53:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:26Dax Shepard?

  The premise is flawed.

• 1:53:27Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:53:28Dax Shepard?

  But the act itself isn't, will you give me permission to marry your daughter? Because we both know I will, whether you say yes or no. So it's not, I'm not really asking permission. What I'm doing is saying, I'm joining your family and I'm coming with a big act of humility.

• 1:53:47Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:53:49Dax Shepard?

  And that's lovely. That's a wonderful thing for someone entering the family to do.

• 1:53:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, we've just discussed this. Like, I, I mean, I just really don't understand why the mother wouldn't be involved in that is like wild. Like, if, if someone wants to marry, they can have a separate conversation with you, like a man on man fun conversation.

• 1:54:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:12Speaker 01

  But I'm entering your family is the whole family. And like, it should, it should, there should be an equal respect for the mother in that scenario, too. I, I think, um, personally. And again, that's me, so I would make that clear. So all I would need is my husband to one, just know me and know, like, that's right. That's what she would want. Or just ask, like, hey, if I end up, if we end up doing this whole thing, like, I would like to talk to your dad. And then I would say, great, you can do that. I would really like if you talked to both of them and then you can also talk to my dad.

• 1:54:55Speaker 01

  I don't know, but I just think the woman needs to have a say in how that goes down. And if I didn't, if my, if my husband went to my dad, I mean, I wouldn't, honestly, I wouldn't like be mad. But also, when I told my dad this, he was like, This is crazy.

• 1:55:18Dax Shepard?

  He didn't want anything to do with it.

• 1:55:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, why would they do that?

• 1:55:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:22Speaker 01

  For him, and he said, he was like, you need to, like, me, Monica, needs to do that. He was like, you need to come to us and say,

• 1:55:30Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:55:30Speaker 01

  Hey, I'm like, this is serious with this person.

• 1:55:34Dax Shepard?

  Can I marry?

• 1:55:36Speaker 01

  Not can I, there's no, they, they are under no

• 1:55:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:55:40Speaker 01

  Illusion that they have permission.

• 1:55:42Dax Shepard?

  You know?

• 1:55:43Speaker 01

  No, no, but they really are not, like, they are not like, you owe us that. They're just like, you're our kid, you are the one that needs to communicate with us.

• 1:55:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:55:54Speaker 01

  Which was good to, for me to know, too, because I could see me being like, oh, yeah, we got engaged last month.

• 1:55:59Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:56:01Speaker 01

  They'd be upset about that.

• 1:56:02Dax Shepard?

  Been married last week.

• 1:56:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're married. Yeah, just different ways of be, so, so, traditions are, uh, cultural and they're different and nothing's right or wrong.

• 1:56:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:14Speaker 01

  It is, to me, what's right or wrong is whether the people think it's right or wrong. That's at the end of the day, like.

• 1:56:20Dax Shepard?

  That's right, if everyone enjoyed the whole thing.

• 1:56:24Speaker 01

  Then great.

• 1:56:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. All right, well, I'm gonna keep watching Beast Games, I'm gonna keep playing Solitaire.

• 1:56:30Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great.

• 1:56:31Speaker 01

  Happily.

• 1:56:32Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great.

• 1:56:33Speaker 01

  Um, and

• 1:56:34Dax Shepard?

  And I'm gonna be excited for you that you're playing Solitaire. It's a real good activity, it's good for your brain.

• 1:56:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:40Dax Shepard?

  And you're enjoying it.

• 1:56:41Speaker 01

  I am.

• 1:56:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you're not very good at it, but.

• 1:56:44Speaker 01

  It's just that I miss it, it's like, wait, I couldn't move this over a long time ago.

• 1:56:48Dax Shepard?

  So you are seeing some room for improvement.

• 1:56:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:52Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:56:52Speaker 01

  And you know me, I like to be the best version of myself.

• 1:56:55Dax Shepard?

  That's right. And it's, I'm impressed you're sticking with Mahjong because you're, you're losing pretty

• 1:57:01Speaker 01

  No, Mahjong is not a game like that, like, you aren't gonna win every game.

• 1:57:06Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:57:06Speaker 01

  If you win once, it's like, great.

• 1:57:09Dax Shepard?

  Ever.

• 1:57:11Speaker 01

  It's hard, it's so bad.

• 1:57:12Dax Shepard?

  But you were just beat by a 10-year-old repeatedly.

• 1:57:13Speaker 01

  Three times, yeah.

• 1:57:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:57:15Speaker 01

  That speaks more to her than it does to any of us.

• 1:57:17Dax Shepard?

  That's impressive.

• 1:57:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, very impressive. Um, all right, let's do some facts.

• 1:57:22Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:57:23Speaker 01

  All right, this is for Nancy, twins.

• 1:57:25Dax Shepard?

  Ah, what a fascinating episode.

• 1:57:28Speaker 01

  Twins, we're never gonna be sick of talking about twins.

• 1:57:32Dax Shepard?

  Twins for the wins. Yeah, this won't be our last twins episode, I'm predicting.

• 1:57:36Speaker 01

  Mm-mm, we love this. There really aren't very many facts, again, because she provided them. I, I'm gonna, like, you know, we talk about the Olsen's, she feels like they're identical, you feel like they're identical. But I, I am obligated to say that they believe they're fraternal. It's on the internet that they're fraternal. Obviously, they haven't done any DNA testing.

• 1:58:03Dax Shepard?

  They have said they never did DNA tests, which means they actually just don't know.

• 1:58:07Speaker 01

  They don't know. So that's what I'm gonna, like, we don't know.

• 1:58:11Dax Shepard?

  Right, they don't know, but the twin expert and I know.

• 1:58:15Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:58:15Dax Shepard?

  And she's an expert and I dated one of them, so I feel like we're pretty qualified.

• 1:58:20Speaker 01

  No, you're not. Nope, you're not. I do think they look so similar. I am gonna give you guys that.

• 1:58:29Dax Shepard?

  You never knew when they were babies before nurture got involved. It's not like you, anyone in the world ever knew when they swapped them out on that show. You can't swap out fraternal twins and get that kind of consistency.

• 1:58:43Speaker 01

  But sometime, maybe you can sometimes.

• 1:58:46Dax Shepard?

  They're definitely identical. I agree with her.

• 1:58:48Speaker 01

  Okay, well, that's not definitely, because this is a fact check and I'm here to say we don't know.

• 1:58:53Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:58:54Speaker 01

  Okay. She quickly mentioned something about men being better at spatial awareness, uh, which they are. A common test used to assess spatial ability involves mentally rotating 3D objects. Studies consistently show that on average, men perform better on these tasks than women. However, this doesn't apply to all spatial tasks.

• 1:59:15Dax Shepard?

  Just the important ones.

• 1:59:16Speaker 01

  Okay, for example, some studies show no significant difference between men and women on tasks involving spatial navigation or spatial working memory. There's also, she also said women are, women perform better, conversely, on verbal things, tasks. Um, I didn't look that up.

• 1:59:36Dax Shepard?

  I was brainstorming about the difference between men and women a little bit, because of course, as we had guests, Kristin and the other mom were like. Really bonding over whatever new food everyone's supposed to eat. And you know, it's like women really, they find out about quinoa about a year before men do. And then they, you know, I forget what, what this, oh, carmen, carmenum, carmenum.

• 2:00:02Speaker 01

  Cardamom?

• 2:00:02Dax Shepard?

  Cardamom, cardamom, they're, you know, they're going on about cardamom. Blake and I like, what the hell is cardamom? But I was thinking.

• 2:00:09Speaker 01

  Cardamom's been around for so long. It's an, it's actually used in Indian food constantly.

• 2:00:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and it's having a resurgence right now. You can get it in a lot of drinks and stuff. It's not, it's not like it was an, an add-on in the eighties, but now, now it's a pretty popular add-on. And I was thinking evolutionarily, it does make so much sense because when you live in an area and you're hunting, you're hunting the same three animals every single day. It doesn't change, but there are so many seasonal berries that are in bloom. Then there's seasonal tubers that are in bloom, then seasonal fruit. Like it makes sense that women were way more on the lookout for whatever was new and in season. Whereas guys are just like, I killed deer.

• 2:01:00Dax Shepard?

  That's what I do. I don't ever have, I'm never going to be killing, you know, a unicorn. There's not going to be any new animals that pop up this season. This is like, this is what I hunt, period, done thinking. I don't know, I was just thinking about that has to be in the mix of explanation. How all the women always know all the new things and all the dudes are like, what? What is the thing?

• 2:01:19Speaker 01

  Hmm, interesting. It's also hard though, because

• 2:01:26Speaker 01

  women talk to other women. Like, so some women are into it and then they're spreading the information to other women. And then they know, like, I don't know that ever, all the women are seeking that out. So like Kristen is constantly seeking that out. Like she's like always like.

• 2:01:44Dax Shepard?

  She's a gatherer. I mean, she's like a textbook gatherer. She's like surveying the land, what's out there, what could be better, what's more nutritious? What, you know, she's on, she's on the gather.

• 2:01:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, but she on the scale, like, you know, she'll send us the girls' stuff about.

• 2:02:04Speaker 01

  Those things are like when the air was bad, like lots of stuff about the air. Like she's on top of that or she's really cares a lot about that. It's just a scale, I guess, like and and.

• 2:02:14Dax Shepard?

  No, right. I mean, there's a huge spectrum among women for sure. And then there's a huge scale among men, but just on the average, those gaps are pretty enormous, you know?

• 2:02:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. Cardamom is a good spice, used in Indian food since the beginning of time. My mom cooks with it a lot. It's strong. It's a strong spice. Um, it's also used in some sweet things like cardamom buns uh is a thing. And that's sweet. And then like rice puddings.

• 2:02:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:02:46Speaker 01

  Uh, so she mentioned a toothpaste that these two separated twins both use. That was random. Vati Makam. It's an herbal toothpaste.

• 2:02:58Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 2:02:58Speaker 01

  If anyone wants to try it.

• 2:03:00Dax Shepard?

  Crest. If anyone wants to try it. If anyone wants to be third member of this twin pair.

• 2:03:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's herbal. Um, I looked up where snakes are the most prevalent, countries with most snake species. Mexico. Oh, most snake species. That's.

• 2:03:16Dax Shepard?

  Right, not overall volume.

• 2:03:18Speaker 01

  Ugh, it never, never understands me. This is Underworld Population Review. Anyway, Mexico has the most species, then Brazil, then Indonesia, then India, then Colombia, then a lot more, but I won't go to 100 because I know how you feel.

• 2:03:38Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:03:39Speaker 01

  Um, and that's it. It's just, twins are interesting. What can we say?

• 2:03:44Dax Shepard?

  Uh, they sure are fascinating. Identical copy of yourself. Would you want one or not?

• 2:03:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, well.

• 2:03:51Dax Shepard?

  Wow, I, I don't want one.

• 2:03:53Speaker 01

  In theory, I want one because I want to know what it feels like to be that connected with someone. Like you in the womb with someone connected, but.

• 2:04:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:07Speaker 01

  In practice, I probably don't. I probably would feel competitive. But maybe you don't because you, you just love them so much.

• 2:04:14Dax Shepard?

  It wouldn't be about my relationship with my twin as much as I'd be envious of having to split my attention with the rest of the world all the time.

• 2:04:24Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 2:04:25Dax Shepard?

  Like, there's two of us, so whatever amount of attention exists for this version of a human, I'm splitting that in half. Does that make sense?

• 2:04:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, you might be a lot more subdued. You'd have no choice.

• 2:04:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I would be like, I guess I'm not gonna be able to be unique. There's already another one of me. You know, I have terminal uniqueness. That's why I'm saying it wouldn't be a good.

• 2:04:46Speaker 01

  But it would actually be a good. It would be good. It would be like the cure. But also, the irony is that, the irony is that you need, it is the most unique to have a twin, identical twin.

• 2:05:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I guess you get a bump from being in a freak show. You know, like, people are gonna be more interested in you for that aspect. But I have a twin. His name's Aaron. That's, he's a good twin.

• 2:05:14Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah. There's a really funny episode of Friends. Phoebe has a twin. Phoebe lives with Rachel, okay? And Rachel is buying a bunch of stuff from Pottery Barn. But Phoebe doesn't like the stuff from Pottery Barn. She wants her stuff to be unique and vintage, one of a kind. Um, and so they go over to Ross's house to watch a TV movie or something. And he also has a piece from Pottery Barn that Rachel had. She had lied and told Phoebe that it was unique and vintage and from the days of old.

• 2:05:53Speaker 01

  And so she freaks out and she's like, "You have to cover this up. Like, Phoebe will see it." And she thinks ours is, is unique. He said, "Oh, it's 'cause she's a tw- twin. Twins are so weird." And she's like, "No, she's not weird. She just wants her stuff to be one of a kind." And he says, "You know what's not one of a kind? A twin."

• 2:06:15Dax Shepard?

  Yes, he's right.

• 2:06:16Speaker 01

  It's very funny. God, it's a great, that one's called "The One With The Apothecary Table." If anyone wants to watch that, I believe it's season maybe six.

• 2:06:25Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great. Everyone can look that episode up.

• 2:06:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, that's it.

• 2:06:32Dax Shepard?

  Okay. Love you, loved her, love twins.

• 2:06:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. She was so cute.

• 2:06:37Dax Shepard?

  Love twins.

• 2:06:38Speaker 01

  We love twins. All right. Bye. Love you.

• 2:06:41Dax Shepard?

  Love you.

• 2:06:56Dax Shepard?

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