Amanda Uhle (on hoarding)

Amanda Uhle (Destroy This House, McSweeney’s) is a journalist, publisher, and author. Amanda joins the Armchair Expert to discuss the east meets west hodgepodge decor cultivated by her eccentric parents, her job as a child to not make her mother’s hoarding a problem, and her dad’s increasing involvement with a motivational tape MLM. Amanda and Dax talk about navigating the subculture of being a pastor’s kid, her mom obsession with death taking shape in a vocation as a hospice nurse, and her father’s pulpit mental breakdown and subsequent stroke. Amanda explains investigating her mysterious parents because she didn’t know what to make of them after their death, how we really have no idea what’s going on in people’s homes, and finding herself totally at peace with who her parents were. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ http://www.wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dax Shepard?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. Today, we have Amanda Yuli on.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 0:07Dax Shepard?

  Who's a journalist and a nonfiction writer. She is the executive director and publisher of McSweeney's. She's been publishing all kinds of very reputable publications.

• 0:16Speaker 01

  Fun stuff.

• 0:18Dax Shepard?

  She's a successful writer.

• 0:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 0:19Dax Shepard?

  But she has an incredible memoir called Destroy This House.

• 0:23Speaker 01

  For people who say it a different, some say, correct way memoir.

• 0:29Dax Shepard?

  Right. That's what I think I said, but clearly I didn't. Or you want to be correcting me? But her story is an incredible one. Her mother was a hoarder and her father was this incredibly charismatic guy who had fortunes won and lost. And it's a, it's a riveting tale of childhood.

• 0:50Speaker 01

  It's a tale of dysfunction.

• 0:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 0:52Speaker 01

  And it's wild. It's a wild ride and we were really interested in the whole thing, but the hoarding is really.

• 0:59Dax Shepard?

  Pretty horny for hoarding.

• 1:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, we like that.

• 1:01Dax Shepard?

  We like to talk about hoarding. Please enjoy Amanda Yuli. We get support from Quince.

• 1:07Speaker 01

  Okay. Can we talk about the fact that the holidays are already here? It's crazy. I feel like I blinked and now we're in gifting season, which I'm not really mad about because I do love giving gifts. And Quince is making it so easy to find something great for everyone on my list, including myself. Because let's be honest, self gifting is a love language.

• 1:26Dax Shepard?

  Quince is seriously the gift that keeps on giving. Their high quality staples are made with premium materials like a hundred percent Mongolian cashmere, 14 karat gold and Italian leather, full on luxury quality at prices that won't wreck your holiday budget.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  It's the dream. The cashmere sweater, starting at $60, down jackets, wool outerwear, cashmere accessories. You and everyone on your list are staying cozy and looking incredible all season long.

• 1:53Dax Shepard?

  Well, I'm going to tell you this, it just got chilly for the first time this year in California and I'm so excited. And I'm wearing my Quince cashmere right now.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  It's great.

• 2:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And I am going to gift this to some of my friends. I hope they're not listening.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  Quince is also more than clothing. They've got fine jewelry for your significant other, leather bags for your bestie, hotel-quality bedding to set up your guest rooms, chef-grade cookware. That's an amazing thing they offer here. And it's such a good gift because people don't like buying cookware for themselves, but it's very important. And they also have five-star luggage, another good gift that people don't like buying for themselves.

• 2:28Dax Shepard?

  Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. This episode is supported by Helix.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  OK, can we talk about how November is basically survival mode between the holidays, the travel, the hosting, the cooking, the everything? Sleep is the one thing keeping me from completely unraveling.

• 3:03Dax Shepard?

  It really is the foundation. And I think people underestimate how much a bad mattress is quietly ruining their day. You wake up stiff, your back's angry, you're already behind before your feet hit the floor.

• 3:14Speaker 01

  That was me before Helix. I took their sleep quiz, which is so fast. It took me like two minutes. And they matched me to a mattress that actually fits how I sleep. Not a guess, not a firm or soft coin flip. It's a real match. I have a midnight mattress and I really like it. I was noticing it because I actually had to sleep in one of my other beds recently.

• 3:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  That doesn't have a Helix mattress on it. And I really could tell a big difference in my sleep.

• 3:37Dax Shepard?

  Temperature was all over the map.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  It was a mess. I need a new one.

• 3:40Dax Shepard?

  Look, they've got over 20 mattress models. So whether you sleep hot, need extra back support, or you've got a partner who moves around all night, there's one built for you. Plus, free shipping and a 365-night happy with Helix guarantee. That's a full year to decide.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  Helix has been named the most awarded mattress by Forbes, Wired, and more. So it's not just us being enthusiastic. The experts agree.

• 4:01Dax Shepard?

  Right now, Helix is running their Black Friday sale with up to 30% off. Go to helixsleep.com/armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. That's helixsleep.com/armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. helixsleep.com/armchair.

• 4:37Dax Shepard?

  Dave Eggers wrote What is the What?

• 4:38Speaker 02

  Yes. So I work with Dave and I heard yesterday that you're a fan of What is the What? I don't know how I didn't know that.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  I know Dave Eggers and we got this really cool magazine. See the lunchbox? It's a magazine.

• 4:48Speaker 02

  I brought you a copy of a McSweeney's issue. You know what McSweeney's is?

• 4:52Dax Shepard?

  So I know McSweeney's, but I don't, right? So I'm like, oh, I know McSweeney's. You hear McSweeney's. Do you know McSweeney's?

• 4:58Speaker 01

  I didn't, but Amanda, Tom.

• 4:59Dax Shepard?

  But I know it and then I was reading about it. And you and Dave co-founded that?

• 5:03Speaker 02

  Dave is the founder.

• 5:05Dax Shepard?

  Oh, he's the founder.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, he started it in 98. I started working with Dave 20 years ago.

• 5:09Dax Shepard?

  I want to get to that chronologically speaking.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  But look how cool that is.

• 5:13Dax Shepard?

  Wait, I need to find out. Did you bring this?

• 5:15Speaker 02

  I brought it and I brought you author baseball cards, too.

• 5:17Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  You can open it.

• 5:19Dax Shepard?

  The 74th issue of McSweeney's, because you guys do a quarterly. It has a fun name, Quarterly.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  Timothy McSweeney's Quarterly Concern.

• 5:28Dax Shepard?

  Concern.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 5:30Dax Shepard?

  It's a journal.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  It's a journal, so everyone is different. I think about a year ago, we published this one, our 74th.

• 5:36Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 5:37Speaker 02

  And inside, there's some literature, right? There's new fiction in a paperback, but we did author cards.

• 5:43Dax Shepard?

  And who designed this clever?

• 5:45Speaker 02

  That's Art Spiegelman on that one.

• 5:46Dax Shepard?

  We're going to learn a lot today.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  I know, I'm so excited.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  Let's talk.

• 5:50Dax Shepard?

  Please remove this cardboard spacer. No, I don't do what I'm told.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Please get rid of it.

• 5:56Dax Shepard?

  If you can.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 5:59Dax Shepard?

  Author trading cards.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  So cute. We got some more, too, over there.

• 6:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:03Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 6:04Speaker 02

  So we published this last year and people loved the cards so much.

• 6:07Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  That we started just printing more, so we can collect them all.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  Ah, I love collecting.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:13Dax Shepard?

  Have you done Tobias Wolff? Does he have a card?

• 6:15Speaker 02

  I love Tobias Wolff's books, but thank you for reminding me that he does not have a card.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  So that's on my list.

• 6:21Dax Shepard?

  And then the other one, you just got me.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Raymond Carver.

• 6:23Dax Shepard?

  Raymond Carver, she got me an original.

• 6:25Speaker 02

  Gosh, I love Raymond Carver, too.

• 6:27Dax Shepard?

  Signed, original press Raymond Carver. Does he have a Carver?

• 6:31Speaker 02

  I'm so sorry, we have missed both.

• 6:33Dax Shepard?

  I'm going to assume for obvious reasons Bukowski doesn't have a card.

• 6:37Speaker 02

  Don't have Bukowski there yet. I'm so sorry.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  I guess.

• 6:42Speaker 02

  But wait, I don't necessarily have all of them memorized. So you will catch me at some point.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  This is great for the fact check.

• 6:48Dax Shepard?

  Can I? Yes. John Brandon, handsome, tall, literate.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  John is one of our favorites. We've published every one of his novels. I think we've published seven of John's books.

• 6:58Dax Shepard?

  Oh, really? He's prolific.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  He's prolific and the greatest.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  What does it say about him?

• 7:03Speaker 02

  So author stats.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  How many pages they've published.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  This is so cool. I love this.

• 7:09Dax Shepard?

  This is. I love this idea. I want to steal it for something.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, like we could do this.

• 7:15Dax Shepard?

  Miranda July, love Miranda.

• 7:17Speaker 02

  Has she been on?

• 7:18Speaker 01

  No, we almost had her before all fours, but then it didn't work out. And then she got very busy, obviously.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  She's a busy person, yeah. So we published one of her books, possibly her first book at McSweeney's. We publish like 10 books a year. We do this magazine and we have two other magazines. And then we have a humor site.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  A lot of people know us that way.

• 7:37Dax Shepard?

  Through the humor site, right?

• 7:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  Oh, so cool. Do you think that you guys could publish an armchair deck and it's all of our guests?

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Oh, yes.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  We're coming up on a thousand.

• 7:48Dax Shepard?

  You're just kind of delegating logistical duties. Because you would have to like give her all the guests' details.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  Well, I'm gonna let her find the details.

• 7:56Dax Shepard?

  Oh, God, you're gonna else.

• 7:57Speaker 02

  You just let us do all the work, yeah.

• 7:58Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  So you guys do such a good job.

• 8:00Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  Why wouldn't I try to copy that?

• 8:03Dax Shepard?

  Well, this is adorable.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  It really is.

• 8:05Speaker 02

  I hope you like it. I think you can throw away the spacer as well. You can keep it in there.

• 8:10Dax Shepard?

  I'm just.

• 8:10Speaker 02

  Or whatever you want to do.

• 8:11Dax Shepard?

  It's a good exercise for me to follow directions, which I'm bad at.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  We'll put it up here and we'll display it.

• 8:17Dax Shepard?

  I'm wondering if throughout this interview, I'll remind you of your father at all.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  If you will remind me of my father?

• 8:22Dax Shepard?

  He was tall, right?

• 8:23Speaker 02

  He's very tall. He played college sports.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 8:26Speaker 02

  He played football for the Florida Gators.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  Oh, uh-oh.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  And in high school in Miami, he did basketball and football. He was a big athlete.

• 8:33Dax Shepard?

  He was charismatic.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  Very much, as are you.

• 8:37Dax Shepard?

  Obsessed with the dollar, as am I.

• 8:40Speaker 02

  Money's a big part of the book, yeah.

• 8:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, very big part of the book. You know, I couldn't help but think, yeah, if I don't choose this, I'm probably just also this figure that's wandering around Michigan. Again, with too big of a personality, could have easily gone in this direction, I feel like.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. In some ways, my dad could easily have gotten that big break and been someone else. He was trying things.

• 9:00Dax Shepard?

  We're gonna talk about your book, Destroy This House. I guess the headline description of your book that I read that got me interested in having you on was that your mother was a hoarder. And I think I have great interest in how that presents itself. How does it evolve? What is it like to live with it? What's the psychology behind it? That's all very interesting to me. Okay, your book starts with, describe mom and dad when you're born. They've been together a few years when you're born?

• 9:26Speaker 02

  They were together a few years. They got together, I think, in 75, and I was born in 78. We're about the same age.

• 9:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm three years older than you. So mom and dad have been together for three years. What did mom and dad want to do at that point?

• 9:36Speaker 02

  That's such a great question. A question I've never even asked myself. My mom really did want to have a family, but she had started out interested in fashion design, which itself was such an inspired and almost strange choice. She grew up in a very tiny town in rural Indiana. And in 1969, just decided fashion was her thing, applied and got into Pratt in Brooklyn.

• 9:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  And just like went to New York, kind of a badass thing to do. So she's really creative. By the time I was born, her interest in fashion and clothes was coming out, not as her designing and making her own things, but as her shopping kind of obsessively. Collecting. Accumulating.

• 10:16Dax Shepard?

  Curating a collection.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  Having a lot of fabric that was one day going to be something.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Gosh, I can so relate.

• 10:23Speaker 02

  It is relatable.

• 10:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you're right. There's almost an angst that you're not a designer and that your next best thing is to appreciate it.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Also, just if you're shopping and you see something that you think is beautiful. I was at a store and there were these bandanas and they were so pretty. And I was like, I don't need this at all. I don't wear bandanas.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  You're not a bandana person.

• 10:43Dax Shepard?

  You're not a cowboy.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  There's absolutely no reason for me to have this, but I have to check out with these two things in my hand. I have to have it.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  These are coming home with me.

• 10:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I did think, what is going on? That I absolutely have to have these things I know are useless to me. And then I did give them to your kids, actually.

• 11:01Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  Because they're bandana girls.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 11:05Dax Shepard?

  They are cowboys.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  So in that case.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  So I found a way.

• 11:08Speaker 02

  But it's a little rush, the shopping.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  Big time.

• 11:10Speaker 02

  It's like, oh, this is a thing. I can buy this and I can be different once I have it or once I buy it.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:15Speaker 02

  So I think that that was going on with my mom.

• 11:17Dax Shepard?

  But she was somehow an engineer at IBM.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  Oh, before then, yes, she was.

• 11:22Dax Shepard?

  This is the most fascinating, I think, because she was quite a rare offering for a female IBM engineer.

• 11:29Speaker 02

  Only woman engineer in the state of Indiana. This is 1974-ish when she got this job. Didn't work out in fashion school in Brooklyn, so she came back to Indiana and got this job. And she was like, I don't want to be a secretary. I don't want to type. I want to fix typewriters. And she learned how to do it and she was their person. There were a lot of men doing that job.

• 11:51Dax Shepard?

  People would stand around and watch her repair these things because it was such a novelty that this woman was so mechanical.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  And she had a pager. I remember her describing this. And they would page her around Indianapolis and she'd go to an office and fix their typewriters.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 12:04Dax Shepard?

  She was doing so well that they moved everyone, right?

• 12:08Speaker 02

  IBM moved my mom with her job to West Virginia. I guess they needed more engineers, maybe more women engineers.

• 12:15Dax Shepard?

  And at that point, mom was the breadwinner, obviously, because dad, he at that time was selling books door to door.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  He had, at that time, and this is so wonderful because my book is published by Simon & Schuster. My dad sold Simon & Schuster paperbacks at gas stations. You know, like in the 70s, they had these spinning racks of books.

• 12:31Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 12:32Speaker 02

  My dad would go and he was so good at talking to people. He could sell you and me and everyone anything and he kept doing that his whole life.

• 12:41Dax Shepard?

  But then you guys got to West Virginia and this is no slight on West Virginians. Those carousels at gas stations didn't really exist.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  Less so in West Virginia, fewer readers of fiction and novels.

• 12:53Dax Shepard?

  At least in 1979.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  So he was a football player before you said in college?

• 12:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, he didn't finish college.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Okay, got it.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  So he did some football, did lots of things, dropped out of college. And at the time, he was in Miami. He worked at a nightclub. He was booking vans. I haven't counted how many jobs my father had. My mom did too, but my dad had. So many.

• 13:14Dax Shepard?

  I almost think there's a predictable pattern for people who are quite good at things really quickly. They never get great at anything. They don't master anything, but they get good enough to get the recognition of that. And then they get bored really easy and they gotta switch it up and go get some more recognition for some other thing.

• 13:30Speaker 02

  He was never afraid to try things, so he would just jump in. And he was selling hotel rooms and then he was selling books. When he ended up in Indianapolis, at first, he was totally homeless. When he and my mom met, he had nowhere to live. Everything he owned was in a tom and can shoebox. And they met at a party and he came home with his shoebox and that was.

• 13:50Dax Shepard?

  And he never.

• 13:51Speaker 02

  That was it.

• 13:52Dax Shepard?

  He left one guy's couch to her.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  Is your mom someone who like really wants to take care of people? Cause that's a big thing to take in, a guy with a shoebox.

• 14:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  Come live with, you know, that's a personality.

• 14:05Dax Shepard?

  Unless he's tall and gregarious and a blast and it's literally not even till months later where you realize, oh, wow, he came over and never left.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  And now he's still here.

• 14:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I could see that version of it too.

• 14:14Speaker 02

  I think it was more that.

• 14:16Dax Shepard?

  This guy's amazing. He's incredible. Wait, where was he living before and where's the rest of his stuff? Maybe you're a little deep.

• 14:21Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 14:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think you're channeling my dad in a few bits here.

• 14:25Dax Shepard?

  Now, how does he get into janitorial supplies, liquid soap dispensers? Cause he's also like an armchair inventor idea guy.

• 14:35Speaker 02

  Always inventing, always starting new things. So they eventually moved. They were in Philadelphia, which is where I was born. And then my dad got this job at Johnson Wax and this is classic my parents' behavior. He gets the job in New Jersey. They start looking for houses. They don't like any houses near this town in New Jersey where the place is. So they start looking further and further out and they go so far out, they're beyond New York City and they're into Long Island. And so we buy a house that causes my dad to commute through New York City in the morning. And then back out it in the evening. No one does that.

• 15:08Dax Shepard?

  No. It's almost like there's something wrong with his frontal lobe at that point. He's like, I like that. I wanna sleep there and I wanna work there and I'm not gonna do any of the math in between.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna let anything get in the way of that.

• 15:19Speaker 02

  And they wanted a bigger house. So I think that they were like, we don't like the houses right around here and we don't wanna live in an apartment. We wanna live in house.

• 15:27Dax Shepard?

  So he got a job there at Johnson Wax. How does it evolve into his role in Sweden?

• 15:31Speaker 02

  Part of what he was doing there was selling to institutions, selling soap and things. And he and another partner, they invented some sort of valve for soap. So their whole thing was hand soap. This is the early eighties. And I don't know if you remember, I barely do, but sometimes you'd go into a public bathroom in the eighties and there'd be like a sliver of bar soap.

• 15:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 15:50Speaker 02

  That everybody would have to share.

• 15:52Dax Shepard?

  The big tub of Borax kind of powder. And then it had this really rudimentary little valve you would open and it would just dump powder on your hands. That was also in the mix.

• 16:01Speaker 02

  That's another old time thing.

• 16:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:03Speaker 02

  My dad was part of thinking, there's a better way. He invented this thing and it was like, what if we had liquid soap? He wasn't the inventor of liquid soap by any means, but he was part of that, like, let's make it work for people. Worked on this valve. He never wanted to have a job. He never wanted to work for somebody and be accountable like that. He wanted to do his own thing. So he found these Swedish janitorial people that were interested and he sold them the valve. And then he sold some people in Hong Kong the valve. In the eighties, we were doing well on the valve. Oh, yeah.

• 16:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so they had kind of like overnight riches. There's no numbers in here. What do we think your dad was bringing in?

• 16:41Speaker 02

  I do have some numbers.

• 16:42Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you do?

• 16:43Speaker 02

  I don't have all the numbers. One of the things about the book is my dad was such an exaggerator always. But what I wanted to do is pin it down. I wanted to figure out the facts that I could. So I found out my dad in 1986, he made $265,000.

• 16:58Dax Shepard?

  In 86?

• 16:59Speaker 02

  That's a lot of money in 1986. Yeah.

• 17:01Dax Shepard?

  Oh, that's like a couple million dollars a year.

• 17:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's wild.

• 17:04Dax Shepard?

  Major.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  And based on that, which was the good year. I think other people would say, well, this is an unusually great year. I'll slack some of this away so that we can live differently and I can keep experimenting and doing wild things.

• 17:17Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so you guys move at that point to Indiana.

• 17:22Dax Shepard?

  And get a mansion.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  Yes, in 1986. And so you were like eight? I was eight. Okay, you were eight, thank you. I'm not very good at math, so I'm proud of myself for that. It was right after I turned eight. And were you like, yes, I'm in a mansion? I never thought to think that. We lost all of our friends when you're a kid. Those are the important things. It was kind of cool. I was like, we'll try it. When my brother was three and I was eight, so we just sort of went along with it. It fulfilled for my mom, this great thing where she loves shopping. And so you have to fill. The house was 6,800 square feet.

• 17:56Dax Shepard?

  Six and a half bathrooms, six bedrooms.

• 17:58Speaker 02

  She got to decorate the whole house. And then some. She was buying furniture in North Carolina a lot, paging through these catalogs, dog earring of circling things. And she'd be on the phone ordering. She was in it. We had $265,000 to spend. We didn't really. So the house was purchased, all this stuff in it was purchased. My dad then was working in Hong Kong a lot. And he just orders an insane amount of Hong Kong furniture in 1986, 87. And it's shipped. What would that cost?

• 18:26Dax Shepard?

  Oh my god. It's got to cross the Pacific, then across the whole country.

• 18:30Speaker 02

  Oh, no. So this mansion house, and many of our houses after that, was this mix of Asian influence, black lacquer, gold trim. We had little cork dioramas of scenes from agrarian China. You know, we had that kind of stuff.

• 18:45Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure, yeah.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  And it's mixed with like the Midwest geese with bows on their necks. Kind of like country, 80s.

• 18:54Dax Shepard?

  Kind of East meets West agrarian.

• 18:57Speaker 02

  Sort of a rural. I'm sorry, it sounds so chaotic. It was chaotic.

• 19:01Dax Shepard?

  There's a lot of confusing things happening. And if I were you, I'm sure I would accredit some things erroneously. But does mom's shopping raise a flag at this point? Does it seem odd? Or do you need to go to a lot of other people's houses to realize that? Like, where's your own awareness of this?

• 19:16Speaker 02

  I would say it seems uncomfortable. It became a harder and harder place to live and just relax at home. Because there's stuff everywhere, even in this huge house. There's like grocery bags of food that were never unpacked, bags of clothes tucked here, there, and everywhere. It seemed odder and odder the more I went to other people's houses. Yeah. And when I noticed that we never had people in our house.

• 19:41Speaker 01

  They were aware enough to know, like, don't come over.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  It was shameful to my parents, but we would never speak of it. It was that kind of shameful, where it was like, we're not gonna discuss this.

• 19:54Dax Shepard?

  Would you have asides with dad ever? Did dad ever explicitly say, like, just let your mom do this? Don't give her any grief about it?

• 20:01Speaker 02

  If I expressed that discomfort that I was feeling as a little kid, he would be like, we love your mother. We had to tolerate it. That was our job, was to be loving and to not make it a problem.

• 20:13Dax Shepard?

  What's your explanation for that? In my mind, a lot of times, couples enter into this tit for tat for vice almost. Like, I'm gonna overlook this thing, cuz I have my own thing that I'd appreciate you overlooking. Was it that arrangement?

• 20:29Speaker 02

  A little bit of that. I think he was straying here and there.

• 20:32Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  In different ways. And I don't wanna say too much about that because I actually don't have too much proof of that, as some. And, you know, he was getting us into trouble all the time with money, and he would never pay a bill. So obviously, he was like, okay, I'm gonna look the other way on all this craziness in the house.

• 20:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm making our life financially chaotic.

• 20:49Speaker 02

  And then I'll do the chaos over here. And so they were just Bonnie and Clyde of the Midwest. They did their stuff together and they tolerated each other.

• 20:56Dax Shepard?

  Now, another unique part of your father's personality is he was also obsessed with Martin Luther and Protestantism and the Lutheran Church. So during this whole period where he's making a ton of money and going to Hong Kong and Sweden, you get to go to Sweden twice as a kid?

• 21:10Speaker 02

  Went to Sweden twice as a little kid.

• 21:11Dax Shepard?

  It's a party, like, it's on.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  But it's a party, but it's like, a lot.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  So I had a fun childhood in a lot of ways. It was challenging, it was uncomfortable. There were problems that I recognized more and more as I grew up, but we had fun. We were indulged, took some trips.

• 21:29Dax Shepard?

  It also makes you think of, like, what modern young people's bar is for a partner. This is the reality of what marriage looked like all through my childhood. The parents were pretty fucked up in their own ways. We're like, yeah, let's be fucked up together. No one's really gotta be perfect. That also feels kind of era-specific.

• 21:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:47Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so when do things start to fall apart on the liquid soap? Why does that go awry?

• 21:55Speaker 02

  My dad was just optimistic. He was optimistic about everything he did. And so his math, later in his life, I would see him do this math. He'd literally get an envelope, back of the envelope. He'd write figures that had no basis in reality, like, here's how we're gonna do the mortgage. I think he just thought those valves. Which he was at one point using for ice cream. He invented kind of like a flurry like ice cream drink. Same technology, but you would put a little flavored syrup in your ice cream.

• 22:19Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow. He could build out that valve in a bunch of different domains.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  He thought so, and he didn't.

• 22:24Dax Shepard?

  He's also getting ensnared with pyramid schemes and stuff, or does that come after?

• 22:28Speaker 02

  Once we moved to the mansion in rural Indiana, it was really clear really quickly that that money that he thought came in really great in 1986 wouldn't be continuing. He started trying things. And one of the things he tried was, he basically got wrapped up in a multi-level marketing scheme.

• 22:48Dax Shepard?

  Was it called SM?

• 22:49Speaker 02

  SMI, Success Motivation Institute. Sort of Christian business people cassette tapes to motivate you. Oh, yeah, cassette tapes. Cassette tapes.

• 23:00Dax Shepard?

  And he invested thousands into that.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  He lost some money. I tried to figure out exactly how much. I have an estimate.

• 23:06Dax Shepard?

  And you found out people in that time that were investing in SMI were losing $10,000 to $20,000 on average.

• 23:12Speaker 02

  Lots of money.

• 23:12Dax Shepard?

  We just had an MLM expert on.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  So interesting. It is interesting. MLMs are known to dupe the people that are part of it. But I think my dad, who was selling them, he was so all in, stars in his eyes. I remember him telling us, this is going to help people have better marriages. But that's why it's so horrible. Your dad was preyed upon. My dad was preyed upon, and so were all the people that he was. Exactly. It's just this like cascade. Nobody wins on that one.

• 23:38Dax Shepard?

  Well, that's the complex nature of MLMs is for many people, it'll have been the best time of their life, even though they lost money because it gave them community.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  Sense of community.

• 23:48Dax Shepard?

  And so it's complicated.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  I remember going with him. I was probably 10, and he would rent out this hotel conference room in our little town. And he'd put a sign up, we're going to talk motivation. It was fun for him, you know? And people would come and they would listen to him because he was so charismatic. Right. But they didn't end up buying the cassette tapes. So, yeah.

• 24:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  Oh, no. So we just went broke, basically. We couldn't afford the house. And the house started just crumbling around us. This is a big kind of estate with huge lawn in the back. And in the front, and we never were able to afford the mowing. My dad never mowed the lawn. There were things they did, there were things they didn't do.

• 24:27Dax Shepard?

  That wasn't his specialty.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  It wasn't his thing. So the grass is like up to my waist and the front door is crumbling off. I don't know how this happened, big hole in it.

• 24:35Dax Shepard?

  With plywood over it.

• 24:36Speaker 02

  Plywood over it.

• 24:37Dax Shepard?

  It's really funny to think of a mansion neighborhood, but there is a white trash family living in it that's not mowing their grass. And the people going like, how did this happen?

• 24:45Speaker 02

  What are these people doing? Yeah. So we were those people. And it was so funny because our house looked like hell. I mean, it was so bad toward the end of this time. But my dad would always pick on me for like leaving my bike in the yard. And it's like, but wait.

• 24:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, the homeowner association was yelling at him about mowing the grass.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 25:00Dax Shepard?

  So another thing, he was a visionary in a sense.

• 25:03Speaker 02

  He was.

• 25:03Dax Shepard?

  He rented out this chunk of a strip mall that was built. This was his next big breakthrough. And he realized, I'm going to subdivide this into different desks. And professionals that don't want the overhead of an office space can come in here. We'll have a common receptionist. It's like WeWork.

• 25:18Speaker 02

  Like a WeWork. It was like WeWork, but it was 1988.

• 25:22Dax Shepard?

  And he did it, but he couldn't get anyone to come in and rent these desks. So he gave the lawn service guys free desks so they'd mow this five foot tall grass in back.

• 25:30Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 25:30Dax Shepard?

  It's a little horse trading.

• 25:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. He was a trader. My dad's most famous barter, and this is going ahead in time, but he bartered for my dental surgery when I was 18.

• 25:40Dax Shepard?

  Please.

• 25:40Speaker 02

  He had talent. May I tell you about it?

• 25:42Dax Shepard?

  Yes, please, yeah. Actually, no, I don't want you to tell it because we got to learn something great about him.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  We're doing chronology. Okay, okay.

• 25:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll get there because that's wonderful. So when you go broke, you then move again. You moved to Fort Wayne?

• 25:53Speaker 02

  There was a Lutheran seminary there. And so at this point, my dad is like, I'm going to just try what has always been in my heart, which is to be a pastor.

• 26:01Dax Shepard?

  At 46 or something, right?

• 26:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. So do you feel like things are normal? No. Or are you like life is chaotic? Are you mad at them? What are you in this? The best word for it is uncomfortable. Like, I just didn't know. Because when you're a kid, you actually think that the way your household operates is kind of standard. Exactly. I knew that our house was messy. And we never used the word hoarding, never in my mom's life. She died 10 years ago. That word was never used. It was messy, but it was like, what else is weird about our house? I didn't really know.

• 26:33Dax Shepard?

  And what about friendships and bringing people to the house or having to make up excuses? Were you dealing with all that kind of stuff?

• 26:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, we just never had people over. It was clear that my parents didn't want anybody over. So I would go to other people's houses. I mean, we had elaborate systems where like if I was getting, say, picked up for something at school, like another family was picking up and nobody had a cellphone, of course. It's still in the 80s. I'd have to like go outside and wait. The door closed behind me because you couldn't risk somebody coming to the door and the door opening and other people seeing what it was like inside. It was too much, you know, so I knew that.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  But did any of your friends say like, can I come over? And you had to like lie?

• 27:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would say, well, let's do it at your house or let's do something else. It would have been so mortifying to me. When I talk about the hoarding, there were things that were like paper bags of canned goods, things like that. It's a little relatable. Didn't have time to put the groceries away. But it was so much and like our bathrooms had shampoo bottles. And you can imagine a normal house might have a few extra in the closet. We would have 48 bottles of shampoo and they'd be on the floor. It's embarrassing, right?

• 27:40Dax Shepard?

  It just takes over every space.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  It took over. And then there was like the gross aspect, which is that food was part of the thing that my mom was hoarding. And so it wasn't just canned goods. She would buy chicken and cottage cheese and things like that and leave them out. And so there was like stinky. It was tough, you know? You couldn't bring people over.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, no.

• 28:01Speaker 02

  When you're 12.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  What would I do? I guess I'd be like, I'm putting these in the fridge.

• 28:05Dax Shepard?

  Well, there's no place to put anything. Nothing can be put away because every inch of the house has been already occupied.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  This is really stressful.

• 28:13Dax Shepard?

  Isn't it so stressful?

• 28:15Speaker 02

  It was stressful. It came out for me in this dream that I started having around the time I was eight-ish. Around the time we moved to this big mansion, but I had this dream where I would just destroy my whole house. And that's where the title comes from. This dream just came back to me over and over and I would have it five or six nights a week. I had it all planned out. There's another house that's fine and my parents cannot be mad at me because I haven't touched this house. But then here's this. Replica and I could just dump everything out and throw stuff out the window. Seems very twisted now.

• 28:47Dax Shepard?

  Do you see anything that was correlated for your mother emotionally that led to this?

• 28:55Speaker 02

  Like why she did it?

• 28:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, like there was a period, obviously, maybe you're too young to remember, but was she doing it back in Long Island?

• 29:01Speaker 02

  It picked up over the years. It got worse and worse and worse. And I think that that's true of most people that struggle with hoarding. But I remember my dad saying that when he came into her apartment with the shoebox, it looked like maybe she'd been robbed is what he said because it was a big mess. She was always kind of messy.

• 29:18Dax Shepard?

  But she knew where everything was.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. And you could never like clean it up because she knew.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  She wouldn't want you to move it.

• 29:24Dax Shepard?

  It was moved.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  Oh, no, you would never.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  So there's this weird illusion of control. Like I know where everything is, even though no one else does. And it's a mess, but I have control over it. Maybe there's a real control element to it.

• 29:38Dax Shepard?

  Of all the isms, it's the one I can't really get there mentally.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  With the hoarding?

• 29:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I can with like every other ism almost. I'm an addict. I understand that. I can easily imagine being addicted to any number of things because I know what it's like to be addicted. I have stolen. I've been a criminal. There's a lot of things I can comprehend, but that whole mindset, I can't even find purchase in.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  I feel like it's the same because it's self-destructive. You know, you shouldn't, right? When you're talking about this behavior, right? You're not supposed to do that and you shouldn't, but you still do it. And I feel like my mom, she knew every time she went to Kohl's, bought a bunch of stuff or Jo-Ann Fabrics or Kroger. I mean, all the places that she would go and just amass all this stuff we didn't need. We had nowhere to store. She, she definitely knew.

• 30:25Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 30:32Dax Shepard?

  We get support from Skims. Okay, I have a confession. I genuinely love matching pajamas. It's the best part of Christmas morning, really. Everyone in the same matching set, looking ridiculously cute in front of the tree.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  I love matching pajamas. I'm literally going to be in coordinating sets with all my friends this holiday season. Because I got them, spoiler to my friends who are listening. The same Skims pajama set I've been living in. They are so soft and cozy and they look cute. So you can leave the house and go get a late night hot chocolate and be cozy.

• 31:07Dax Shepard?

  It's so great how Skims has sets for everyone, too. Women's, men's, kids, even your pets. So nobody in your life has to be left out this year.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  I have a bunch of different pajama sets. One of my favorite is the organic cotton sleep long sleeve set.

• 31:24Dax Shepard?

  Okay, tell me more.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  It is so comfortable, very chic, too. The top is a button down, but very, very soft, easy to sleep in. But as I said before, you can multipurpose this and look super cute.

• 31:37Dax Shepard?

  Hot chocolate runs. It's like the pajamas we grew up in, except without the scratchy polyester that made opening presents feel more like a hot yoga class that nobody signed up for.

• 31:46Speaker 01

  All the nostalgia, none of the discomfort. Shop my favorite loungewear and pajamas at skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you. Select podcasts in the survey and be sure to select Armchair Expert in the dropdown menu that follows. If you're looking for the perfect gifts for everyone on your list, the Skims Holiday Shop is now open at skims.com.

• 32:05Dax Shepard?

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Every family has that one holiday tradition nobody actually enjoys, but everyone keeps doing because stopping it would feel like a federal offense. For me, it was a specific meal situation that I will not name because my family listens. But at some point, you have to ask yourself, am I doing this because I love it or because I'm afraid of what happens if I don't?

• 32:28Speaker 01

  Yes, and that question applies to so much more than the holidays. I think a lot of us carry these invisible rules about how we're supposed to spend the holidays, who we're supposed to see, what it's supposed to look like. And when you start unpacking that with a therapist, you realize half of your stress is coming from rules you didn't even write.

• 32:44Dax Shepard?

  This is where BetterHelp can be a great resource during the holidays. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences, which means they typically get it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recs.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  I just love therapy. I've been avoiding it recently, or not avoiding it, but I was like, oh, I'm busy, I'm busy, I'm busy. I haven't canceled, canceled, canceled, but then I-

• 33:11Dax Shepard?

  You start feeling it.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, because then I had it this past weekend and I was like, oh my God. And just thank God, thank God for her. Yeah.

• 33:19Dax Shepard?

  BetterHelp is now in-network with more than 125 health plans, with many copays as low as $15 for eligible members. And if you don't have eligible insurance or live outside the US, you can still get 20% off your first month. Sign up and get 20% off at betterhelp.com/dax. That's betterhelp, H E L P, dot com slash DAX. We get support from Superhuman. Look, I love what I do. The conversations, the ideas, the creative stuff. But there's this whole other layer of work that eats my day alive. The inbox that never ends. Docs I need to get through, threads I'm behind on. And by the time I've dealt with all of that, the stuff I actually want to focus on gets whatever's left.

• 34:03Dax Shepard?

  What I needed was something that just works where I'm already working. Not another tab to open, not another thing to set up. Superhuman Go, from the makers of Grammarly, is different. It's already right there, inside your email, your docs, your browser. You don't go to it, it's already working alongside you. You're deep in a long thread, highlight it, and it pulls the key points. About to send something important? It flags what doesn't add up before it leaves your hands. It knows your style, your workflows, and it just backs you up without getting in the way. A thought partner that's already up to speed, at your service, not after your job. So, do yourself a favor and try Superhuman Go, from the makers of Grammarly. Find out more at superhuman.com.

• 34:47Dax Shepard?

  We get support from our sponsor Lilly. For adults with obesity or with excess weight and weight-related medical problems, it's time to find out about Foundo or for Gleepran. Foundo is a once-daily prescription GLP-1 medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off.

• 35:13Speaker 04

  Foundo should not be used with other GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Foundo is safe and effective for use in children. Don't take Foundo if you're allergic to it or if you or someone in your family had majorary thyroid cancer or multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Stop and call your doctor right away if you have an allergic reaction, a lump or swelling in your neck, or severe stomach pain. Serious side effects may include inflamed pancreas and gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes, if you're nursing, pregnant, plant to be, or taking birth control pills, and before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. Taking Foundo with an insulin or sulfonylurea may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include diarrhea, nausea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and may cause kidney problems.

• 35:52Speaker 04

  Once-daily Foundo is available by prescription only in 0.8mg, 2.5mg, 5.5mg, 9mg, 14.5mg, and 17.2mg tablets. Learn more at foundo.lilly.com or call 1-800-LILY-RX. Now is perfect to talk to your doctor about Foundo.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  Was she sad? Does she have like a sadness around her? What was her personality?

• 36:21Speaker 02

  I think that sadness was at the core of this. You know, I think she felt bad about herself in some way. This was a way to not feel so bad. But she didn't act sad.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  Okay, interesting.

• 36:32Dax Shepard?

  So she too, around this Fort Wayne time, she decides she wants to become a nurse.

• 36:37Speaker 02

  She does. Reinventing themselves constantly.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:40Dax Shepard?

  So all of it to me is kind of eccentric and a bit charming and a colorful childhood. When they start both leaving to go to night school and you're 10 and your brother's five and they're driving into the city at night and they're gone for a long time, I start to think, well... No, they're kind of neglectful.

• 36:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:00Dax Shepard?

  You know, like they're both so consumed with their own thing. Again, I'm looking from the outside, just making judgments, I guess. But it also seems like they had some weird fun dance where like they were both living their own lives.

• 37:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, they did their own thing. Don't you think a little bit this was the era? Parents did not dote on their kids the way I feel like I'm doting on mine. It was very different and it was like, you're kind of on your own. My mom used to take me, I wonder if you think this is neglectful, but when I was maybe 11, she would take me to the library during summer days just because I didn't have anything else. She just dropped me off with like four quarters because vending machine, I could get something. I'd be there for like seven, eight hours.

• 37:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's just kind of unimaginable for us, right?

• 37:42Speaker 02

  It doesn't seem like something I would do.

• 37:44Dax Shepard?

  As modern day parents.

• 37:45Speaker 02

  But I mean, it was the library. I mean, you know, it wasn't the worst thing, but I think it might've felt standard or felt okay then.

• 37:52Dax Shepard?

  Okay, now just quick on Fort Wayne. Did you ever go to Sturgis, Michigan?

• 37:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, my husband's from Coldwater.

• 37:58Dax Shepard?

  Oh, he is?

• 37:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:59Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I know Coldwater well.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  You do?

• 38:01Dax Shepard?

  My grandparents owned a little roadside motel in Sturgis and I spent a lot of summers there. And then I de-tassled corn in the summer.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  Oh, de-tassling corn, that's, I know about it.

• 38:11Dax Shepard?

  That's a pastime, right?

• 38:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've never done it, but it was a big deal, all the places I lived.

• 38:14Dax Shepard?

  All the boys kind of had to do it, right?

• 38:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:16Dax Shepard?

  There were only a couple gals on our picking crew and they were tough gals, let's just say.

• 38:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, that's tough work. It's really hard work.

• 38:24Dax Shepard?

  It's brutal.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  I know that area really well, so we lived in Fort Wayne and then my husband was growing up in Coldwater.

• 38:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, where Dan Severance from, the UFC fighter.

• 38:32Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 38:32Dax Shepard?

  There's so few famous people from Coldwater. Also, the actor you're now obsessed with from Girls.

• 38:37Speaker 02

  Oh, Adam Driver.

• 38:38Dax Shepard?

  I think Adam Driver's from Coldwater or Kalamazoo, one of the two, yeah.

• 38:42Speaker 02

  Love Kalamazoo.

• 38:43Dax Shepard?

  All right, so you were in Fort Wayne for five years?

• 38:47Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 38:48Dax Shepard?

  Okay, now what's interesting too is I want you to tell me a lot about this because this feels very unique, which is even though he wasn't yet a pastor, he would call you guys pastor kids and pastor wife. And then the teachers would even call you PK.

• 39:03Speaker 02

  It's a subculture.

• 39:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, tell me about PK.

• 39:06Speaker 02

  PK is pastors' kids. So I'm, I guess, 11 when we moved and, you know, we had a whole childhood where we were just like the kid of an entrepreneur, a business person, or whatever my mom was. PK is like this group when your parent, in most cases, in this case, my father, is going into the clergy. You're different. In Fort Wayne, there were many PKs because there's this seminary. So there were lots of Lutheran pastors in training. Lots of them were kind of midlife or had kids.

• 39:33Dax Shepard?

  Did the teachers give you like preferential treatment?

• 39:35Speaker 02

  I would say a little preferential treatment and a little higher expectation. It was like, oh, you're a PK. How could you? You wouldn't be doing that at recess as a PK. It was a little judgment. It felt like I suddenly was different. I got this label like, oh, you're part of these people. You know, we wear the gold cross around our necks. And it wasn't that we were not Lutheran before, because we were, but it was like suddenly we were a clergy family.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, you were handed an identity.

• 40:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, you know, when you're in middle school, that's a big thing to figure out.

• 40:07Dax Shepard?

  And again, not to judge your father too harshly, but to me, it also looks like, okay, so he wanted status as a rich guy. That's a way to get status in this country, get money. When that was taken, it was like, you kind of figured out another way to have status, but without that requirement.

• 40:21Speaker 02

  I agree. He was doing that for sure. And I will say, this thing about my dad, he fumbled a lot. Like, he tried things he didn't quite work out all through his career. And when he hit on this, I think it was the most genuine and the most real thing in his whole life.

• 40:36Dax Shepard?

  He really did love it.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  He really loved it. And there's a way you can sort of tell the story about this is that my parents went bankrupt in the late 80s. And then my dad was like, got nothing else to do. I'm going to be a Lutheran pastor. They'll take me in. Like, that's a story. I believe it. It's true. There's also a story that this was in his heart his whole life, and it was the best thing for him. I don't think there was anything fake about that part of his life and career. Really. He was good at it.

• 41:02Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so this now takes you up to Michigan.

• 41:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 41:05Dax Shepard?

  And do you know that the rest of Michigan that we called Taylor, Taylor Tucky?

• 41:09Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 41:10Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 41:10Speaker 02

  That was one of the first terms that I learned when we moved to Taylor Tucky. Yes. Monica, it looks like she doesn't know what that is. And it's kind of mean to Kentucky because Kentucky's a nice place.

• 41:22Dax Shepard?

  Absolutely, and my whole family's from there and I love Kentucky. But alas, we were young and we did call Taylor, Taylor Tucky. Does that make sense to you, Monica?

• 41:30Speaker 01

  No.

• 41:31Dax Shepard?

  If you're in Michigan, you're calling something Kentucky, you're shitting on it.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 41:35Dax Shepard?

  Like Taylor.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  So this area was called Taylor?

• 41:37Speaker 02

  The little town. And it was part of a group of little towns called Downriver.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 41:42Dax Shepard?

  So you arrive there and dad gets a post as a pastor at a church. You get church housing.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Nothing my dad loved more than a free house.

• 41:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:52Dax Shepard?

  And he was in a standoff with the church because he said they owned it, so I'm not doing any repairs. So again, this place, the window was broken in the kitchen.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  And you had no money?

• 42:00Speaker 02

  No. We lived in that house with a broken kitchen window, big hole in it. I used to say it's a hole the size of a slice of pizza, like that big of a hole for like years.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:10Dax Shepard?

  And with the AC blasting, didn't care because he wasn't paying the electric bill, I presume?

• 42:15Speaker 02

  No, he was paying the electric.

• 42:16Dax Shepard?

  Oh, he was.

• 42:16Speaker 02

  Or sometimes he was, sometimes he wasn't. They didn't connect things and consequences.

• 42:21Dax Shepard?

  The fact that these two in their 40s completely changed courses and your mom becomes an RN and your dad becomes a pastor.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  She's been so many things, an engineer, a fashion designer.

• 42:32Dax Shepard?

  And so she starts working around the clock. And now this is interesting because it doesn't seem like it was this way before. This is when they completely split their finances.

• 42:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 42:41Dax Shepard?

  So mom has her own bank account at a different bank than dad.

• 42:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 42:44Dax Shepard?

  They've divvied up who's paying for what.

• 42:46Speaker 02

  In their own chaotic way. The line is very interesting about who pays for what.

• 42:50Dax Shepard?

  Who is paying for what?

• 42:52Speaker 02

  Anything that was like a shopping thing, my mom did. Clothes, food, that was all my mom. But anything that was a bill, the electric bill or anything like that, the car insurance, my father was paying.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  And why did they decide to do this? Just because they were like fighting about money?

• 43:06Speaker 02

  I think it's because my mom got a job. Being a nurse is a fairly well-paid job, especially compared to the other jobs that they had had. And so I think my mom was kind of protective of her money and wanted to be able to spend her money.

• 43:20Dax Shepard?

  And she was at this point making more than dad.

• 43:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, no, she told me the PIN for her bank account and I was never to tell anyone, especially dad.

• 43:29Dax Shepard?

  That's a weird dynamic.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is.

• 43:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:32Dax Shepard?

  You were making money, you were working, and dad was like borrowing money off you for pizza sometimes.

• 43:36Speaker 02

  Oh, he was always borrowing money.

• 43:37Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 43:38Speaker 02

  Because I worked at the coffee house, it was very 90s. I worked at Chava Joe's and Y and Dot. I was making money and I was saving it up because I wanted a car. I got a big Chevy Impala around that time. And, you know, I had to pay for my gas and I had to pay for all my shows I was going to at St. Andrews and wherever. So that was my money, but yeah, my dad needed it sometimes.

• 43:58Dax Shepard?

  Last thing I want to flag about high school is that we share this in common. We both outwardly hated Friends.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  Friends, the show?

• 44:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Both of you get out of here.

• 44:08Dax Shepard?

  And we had never seen it.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:12Speaker 02

  It just wasn't for me. It was very clear in the 90s, it wasn't for me.

• 44:16Dax Shepard?

  I thought of Monica's, Monica's favorite show ever is Friends.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  It like defined my life.

• 44:20Speaker 02

  However, you watched it in reruns, right?

• 44:23Speaker 01

  No, by the time I caught up, it was probably, because it started in 94, so I would have been...

• 44:31Speaker 02

  Oh, it ran forever. I forgot about that part of it.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, 10 years. So by the end, I was definitely watching it as it aired.

• 44:36Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 44:39Speaker 02

  The happiness.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:40Dax Shepard?

  She got to school and everyone was talking about it.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  Of course, it was the best show.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  And it was like the next day, because everyone watched it. I think it was like Wednesday, Thursday night. Yeah, so Fridays, it was, everybody had to talk about it.

• 44:51Dax Shepard?

  And just for fun, I found this funny. Your mother was saying stuff to you pretty regularly, like, listen, hand jobs are crucial. You cannot leave a boy with blue balls.

• 45:00Speaker 02

  I didn't know you were gonna get into this, but thank you.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is interesting.

• 45:04Dax Shepard?

  I think it's very telling of... She also was cool, I guess. She's not afraid to talk to you.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  No.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  Cool is an interesting...

• 45:12Dax Shepard?

  Well, when you have a dad that's a pastor and you think about growing up as a PK, I'm thinking of very sheltered, afraid of sex, puritanical, mom's saying, no, you gotta give hand jobs. That's interesting.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  But again, that's like what to me feels chaotic. That's a through line here. Everything's chaotic. Like, there's this and then there's this, and it's all meshed together. That's complicated for a kid to grow up in.

• 45:33Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. There were rules, but they were so weird that I had to figure them out all the time. Because remaining a virgin was a big deal. You had to do that in my house. Like, that was a non-negotiable.

• 45:43Dax Shepard?

  But unlimited hand jobs is fine.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  And that right there.

• 45:48Speaker 02

  It'd be fine. And, you know, but it was like, there was this thing in my mom about... Pleasing men. It's of her era. You can't be unpopular. You can't risk getting turned down.

• 45:58Dax Shepard?

  She was very concerned you weren't dating.

• 46:00Speaker 02

  Wasn't dating really in high school. Not to say anything about the boys I went to high school with, but I wasn't seeing quite what I wanted. And I felt like I was into books and I was into music and super into weird clothes. Like, I loved the Value Village was my place where I was buying vintage things. I'm still wearing vintage things into my 40s. But I was like, wearing kind of old man clothes.

• 46:22Dax Shepard?

  And this was the look for gals in the punk rock scene in Detroit?

• 46:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I liked my look. Do you think you were also trying to like, get through high school so I can leave this house? I did just want to leave. I couldn't bring boys over. No.

• 46:34Dax Shepard?

  Although the mom brought a boy over blindly from church for a date for her.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  I was dropped off at his house.

• 46:40Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you were dropped off at his house, sorry.

• 46:41Speaker 02

  Because of the thing about you can't go in our house. Right. And he took me for root beer, which I didn't like then and don't like now.

• 46:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, A and W?

• 46:48Speaker 02

  It was tough, yeah. I liked A and W. I wasn't dating that much and it was really stressful, for my mom especially. Oh, no. Is anyone gonna like her? They thought I was a feminist and that was really weird. I mean, I was a feminist. It wasn't really weird, but that's what I was. My dad was into Rush Limbaugh. He was worried I was a feminazi, you know?

• 47:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  Wow. It was just troubling for them. They were always seeking to be conventional, normal Americans, like, on TV kind of family. That's just what they wanted. And I was not doing that.

• 47:17Dax Shepard?

  What did they want for you?

• 47:18Speaker 02

  They wanted me to be a little more prim and wear a little nicer clothes and maybe watch Friends and maybe be a little bit more of a conventional teenage girl and have like, a boyfriend that I held hands with and hopefully he was on a team of some kind. But how could you possibly be that?

• 47:34Dax Shepard?

  Coming from that environment.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  Yes, like, there's literally no way. There's no way you could have been any of those things. I was definitely not that. It was really clear. You know, I felt like I was disappointing my parents.

• 47:45Dax Shepard?

  Did they say what they wanted you to do professionally?

• 47:47Speaker 02

  This sounds so mean, but I think they wanted me to get married and have some kids. I think that they wouldn't have felt really good just saying that. They would have said, "You can do whatever you want for four years." Two and a half or three years until you...

• 48:01Dax Shepard?

  Find a man.

• 48:02Speaker 02

  That was very clear.

• 48:03Dax Shepard?

  She also got you a vibrator for Christmas.

• 48:05Speaker 02

  She did. This is so confusing.

• 48:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 48:08Speaker 02

  This is so confusing.

• 48:11Dax Shepard?

  And then come chat with me if you need to know how to use it.

• 48:13Speaker 02

  I was in high school. And I think I was 17. I barely knew what it was, to be honest with you.

• 48:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 48:20Speaker 02

  And my brother is 12 and my dad, and I opened this thing and I'm like, oh. I mean, it was just horrifying.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Wild.

• 48:29Speaker 02

  They were just inappropriate.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:31Speaker 02

  They really were. They didn't have, I don't know why, because they were so obsessed with being conventional, but they didn't catch on to boundaries and some of the normal things that you would hope in your parents.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  It's almost like they're aliens trying to be human.

• 48:44Dax Shepard?

  Tryna, yeah, American.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  And they couldn't do it, but they were trying. And growing up, and that sounds so hard.

• 48:51Speaker 02

  Yes, it was hard. It was also kind of fun. I hope that it feels to readers not oppressive.

• 48:57Dax Shepard?

  It feels fun and colorful. Dad's likable as hell, right? We're kind of listing this stuff, but he's not fulfilling these roles because he's not really fun and probably charismatic and likable.

• 49:07Speaker 02

  Weirdly, I have many good memories of my parents, both of them, individually and together. I, you know, have some other ones too. And it got harder as they got older. And as some of their financial problems got worse, their health problems, they took care of their health about the way they took care of their money, which is, they didn't.

• 49:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So you go away to college.

• 49:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:26Dax Shepard?

  When you get out of that house, is that like a Rumspringer for you? Do you remember just being so delighted?

• 49:32Speaker 02

  So I went to a Lutheran college in Chicago because that was a path. It was easy for them to see where I was going. And Chicago was far enough from our Detroit suburbs home that it just felt new. And I really say to this moment, my college was the city of Chicago. I just was out. I felt like school was pretty easy and I just did whatever I had to for school. You know, a lot of the Lutheran kids at the school were doing pretty boring weekend stuff. They'd take their sleeping bags and watch a movie in the gym, kind of a thing. And I was out in the city and I just was only there to sleep. It was great. I learned so much from the art museums, from all the cafes in Chicago. Wicker Park was where I went most of the time. It was beautiful time in my life. It's very independent. I just felt so different.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  Are you very neat?

• 50:19Speaker 02

  I'm pretty neat, but I'm not extreme, actually. People often have been asking me if I've gone to like a Marie Kondo sort of situation.

• 50:27Dax Shepard?

  A minimalist.

• 50:28Speaker 02

  No, I have a lot of stuff. I have a lot of books at home. I love vintage clothes. I have my stuff. My husband's a big record collector. We have a lot of records at home. Way more maybe than I'm even comfortable with, but I don't live in a Spartan way. But that comfort thing is what I'm focused on. I was so uncomfortable at home as a kid. You couldn't sit on a couch because it was full of stuff.

• 50:51Dax Shepard?

  But you described trying to eat like Thanksgiving dinner in the house and it's like almost impossible. There's food on the floor.

• 50:57Speaker 02

  Under the dining room table, it's like stacked with plastic bags full of things my mom bought at Target. So you don't even have room for your legs. So I do not live like that at all. Anything approaching that kind of like unput away stuff is pretty uncomfortable for me.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:11Dax Shepard?

  I just got the idea for a retail store. If you guys want to be partners on it. Here's how it works. It's like a Target. You go and you do all your shopping. You pay for it and then on the way out, they say, would you like this to ship this to your house? So you don't have to carry it home and you go, yes. And you hand it all to them.

• 51:25Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 51:26Dax Shepard?

  And then they refund 95% of it.

• 51:29Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 51:30Dax Shepard?

  And then it just goes back on the shelves.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 51:32Dax Shepard?

  And then that person gets that delight of picking the things out, paying for it. Because it doesn't sound like she wants any of it. Yeah, she's getting home and not even pulling it out of the bag, just shoving the bag under the table.

• 51:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, the bags were never opened.

• 51:44Dax Shepard?

  The event she was after was the purchasing of it. Why don't we build a little center for people?

• 51:49Speaker 01

  So it's a lie when they say, we'll ship it to your house?

• 51:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but they say it so politely and invitingly and you're excited to not deal with it going to your car. You go for it and people just can shop all day long.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  I don't know if that's gonna work. I think they like knowing it's there. Maybe not unpacking it or whatever, but the stuff I got is here. I think so much of it, because I have a little bit of this where if I'm starting to feel anxious or my life is feeling out of control, I will look around my space and figure out how to buy something or arrange something. So I have control over my life. I have control over my space. So I think it's like. I have it here. I feel safe that this is here. I don't need to unpack it, but it's here.

• 52:31Dax Shepard?

  I do need it here.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I don't know about your store.

• 52:34Dax Shepard?

  Okay, you're not gonna invest. Angel investor, those pay off the bigs usually.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  I need to know percentage of orders in America before I can angel invest.

• 52:42Speaker 02

  I think it's actually common, not maybe to the level that my mom was doing it, but I think a number of people have this sort of tendency to accumulate.

• 52:51Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so you get out of college and you become a writer?

• 52:54Speaker 02

  Kind of. I was interested in writing always, but I kind of wasn't sure that it was a career. How do you make money as a writer? Like, I didn't know about that. And I went into art, I went into other things. I worked at a women's college in Milwaukee, where I moved, lots of Midwest cities. And I did a number of other things in kind of nonprofits. But I was interested in books and writing forever.

• 53:14Dax Shepard?

  How did you meet Dave Eggers?

• 53:16Speaker 02

  So in about 2005, I started at 826 Michigan. 826 is this network of youth writing centers that Dave founded with Nineveh Calgary. It started at 826 Valencia Street in San Francisco, and that's why it has the name 826. By the time I got involved, there were probably eight youth writing centers, free programs, tutoring, and writing, open to all kids.

• 53:41Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 53:42Speaker 02

  And it really relies on this model of adult volunteers being involved. So that's really what the organization is. Adults in the community want to give back. 826 kind of finds a spot for them and runs these programs, and it's beautiful. That program publishes youth writing, too. So you can come in and have your writing in a book. So I got involved in that, and that's how I met Dave.

• 54:03Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so who got sick first, your mom or your dad?

• 54:07Speaker 02

  Well, they were both ill in different ways, but my dad was sicker first. He had two terrible events. He had a nervous breakdown, basically, when he was in the pulpit preaching.

• 54:18Dax Shepard?

  In the middle of preaching?

• 54:19Speaker 02

  In the middle of a Sunday service. He just said, "I can't do this anymore." And he turned around and he left. And my mom picked him up and they drove around. And he basically had a real mental health event. Looking back on it, just if I were to analyze it at all, I think it was all the years of... The exaggerations and the not quite doing things on the level. And it just kind of caught up with him in some way. Just all that stress. You can imagine all the stress that he must have been under.

• 54:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, do you think it was like a bottom for an alcoholic where he kind of maybe admitted, oh, my God, I'm full of shit?

• 54:55Speaker 01

  And here I am, standing in front of all these people.

• 54:58Speaker 02

  Sunday morning, everyone's looking at me for the answers. I don't have the answers.

• 55:03Dax Shepard?

  Did he ever return?

• 55:04Speaker 02

  In a way. So he did other things. He took on a little church in the Pontiac area.

• 55:09Dax Shepard?

  Oh, sure.

• 55:10Speaker 02

  So we moved around a little bit more. I was out of the house by then, but they moved to Pontiac. And he had a small church that was just starting there. That also was kind of tough. He was different then. And then started being a Lutheran counselor. So he went back to school again when he was in his 60s. This is so much like the New York City commute story. He decided to get his other degree in counseling in Windsor, Ontario, which, you know, you just go right across the bridge, no big deal. But it's, you know, international commute.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 55:39Speaker 02

  He was always doing the same things.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:42Dax Shepard?

  Yes, the patterns.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  So all of that was transpiring. And then unfortunately, he had a terrible stroke a few years after that. So those last years of his life were really hard. He was pretty much in a wheelchair at that point.

• 55:55Dax Shepard?

  And they were financially pretty rough?

• 55:58Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. They weren't paying their bills in the 70s and they just like kept doing that. So by 2007, big trouble.

• 56:04Dax Shepard?

  I sometimes marvel at the amount of stress people who live like that, with debt nonstop, what it's like. Or are they able to compartmentalize it in a way that doesn't affect them? But yeah, my dad too, he owed everyone money and filed bankruptcy a few times. And he was in this house that he couldn't afford. And it was like, how long could he stay there before they kicked him out? And I just thought like, how are you enjoying any of this? This would just be so stressful for me.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  It's so stressful. It affected their health a lot, just their physical and their mental health.

• 56:30Dax Shepard?

  And explain how your mom was always ready to die.

• 56:32Speaker 02

  I mean, she would never stop talking about it. And I don't think she was suicidal, but she became a hospice nurse eventually in her nursing career. And really, I mean, what a noble thing, right? Being a hospice nurse is an incredible service to everyone. So she got into it, if I can just be so crass. She just felt like it was such a special thing, being able to shepherd people into their next life and care for people and care for families that way. So. She just thought it was a very noble thing. She like looked up to people who were in this death and dying business. It's about comfort, which is such a beautiful thing, right? It's really, I mean, I'm a fan of hospice too.

• 57:14Speaker 02

  But yeah, for my mom, I think she was so stressed and tired herself, exhausted from these lives that they had lived, that she was kind of looking forward to the moment where her whole life would be about that kind of comfort.

• 57:25Dax Shepard?

  So she had cancer?

• 57:28Speaker 02

  My mom had kidney disease. My dad ended up having cancer too. So my dad had the stroke and then lots of other problems and developed skin cancer because he grew up in Miami, no sunblock, in those 40s and 50s when he was growing up.

• 57:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. When she was getting towards the end, you were now consumed with the bigger issue was having to deal with everything that she was leaving behind than the actual death.

• 57:54Speaker 02

  Since I was eight, I was worried about the stuff in our house, right? Like this dream I had and this incredible kind of oppressive force of all that stuff. I thought about it when I was a kid. Oh, my God, who's going to deal with all this?

• 58:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 58:09Speaker 02

  And even like when I moved to Chicago, some part of me, I remember thinking, oh, I'll live in another state. And then whatever happens to them and their stuff, like maybe it's not my problem. Like that was always in my life, who's worried about whose responsibility it might be when they passed.

• 58:26Dax Shepard?

  And you have a younger brother, he's five years younger.

• 58:28Speaker 02

  I do, yeah.

• 58:28Dax Shepard?

  So what happened when she passed? What was that process like?

• 58:32Speaker 02

  I wasn't eager for her to pass exactly, but I was so stressed about all the stuff to do and all the undoing of all these things that they had. They had this apartment in Milford, actually.

• 58:44Dax Shepard?

  Oh, that's where I grew up.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  I think it's not named in the book, and that's where these storage units were of their switches at the end of the book. So. They had this stuffed apartment and they had two full storage units of stuff. When I knew it was the very end of her life, I had to hire some people to help me clean out the apartment. It was not in any way something that I could physically or mentally handle. It was so much and it was so gross.

• 59:09Speaker 01

  You're kind of like, I just want to fucking light this thing on fire.

• 59:13Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 59:13Dax Shepard?

  I feel guilty now, but not terribly guilty. So, yeah, my dad, he was not a hoarder and yet he hoarded some stuff. And as he got more broke, his obsession with that kind of intensified. But he had the downstairs of this house and the woman who owned it, her house was getting foreclosed on and she just left to another state. When he died, I was like, I'm just gonna leave everything. I'm just gonna pretend it's not my issue and the house itself's gonna get repossessed. I don't know. So I just didn't deal with it.

• 59:39Speaker 02

  You didn't do anything?

• 59:40Dax Shepard?

  I went in there and I was like, do I want anything? I took his sobriety coins and that was it. And then my brother came a few days later and maybe he took some stuff. But all in all, I was really overwhelmed.

• 59:50Speaker 02

  It's so overwhelming.

• 59:51Dax Shepard?

  It's overwhelming and it's dirty and it's gross. I have this moment where I'm like, oh, yeah, stuff. No one's here to care about this anymore. So it's now has zero value. And just the realization like, oh, you add the value to these objects.

• 1:00:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:08Dax Shepard?

  I don't know, it's a very profound moment, I think, to stand in someone's house who's died and you realize all this crap they cared about.

• 1:00:13Speaker 02

  Oh, it's incredible. And what does it mean at the end? It means so little.

• 1:00:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:17Speaker 02

  In my mom's case, she had been hinting for a while that she had hidden money in her stuff. So it was a little treasure hunt that I went on. And I did find quite a bit of cash, actually. This was like her savings account, because all of her accounts were always overdrawn. But I did find about $4,000.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  And she just had it hidden around?

• 1:00:38Dax Shepard?

  That she swirled away and hid from your dad.

• 1:00:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, she'd been hiding it for a long time.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:00:42Speaker 02

  So I hired some folks and they usually do crime scenes, the crime scene people to clean up.

• 1:00:48Dax Shepard?

  When the whole episode, because they die, what, within a year and a half of each one?

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  About a year and a half, yeah.

• 1:00:53Dax Shepard?

  So when that whole chapter's closed, then you have a child. How does it reframe how you looked at them, process that whole experience? What has it done?

• 1:01:03Speaker 02

  I will say their whole lives, I was 37 when my mom died and she died second. That whole time, I didn't know what to make of them. I knew certain things. I knew they were just exceptional people, like really unusual in some really good ways and some really troubling ones. You know, I didn't know what to make of it. They said and did some things that were really hurtful to me, both really actively and passively, just by who they were. But I did love them and I know they loved me. I mean, that's absolutely the clearest thing to me ever. But I didn't really know what to make of them. And so for me, some time passed, they've been gone 10 years now, my dad longer than that, I kind of wanted to know what really happened with my parents.

• 1:01:45Speaker 02

  My dad was lying about everything, always, and they were so mysterious. So I, years later, decided to kind of investigate them and just look at them like a journalist would.

• 1:01:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. It makes me think of like when you're in elementary school and there's a kid next to you, you just have no clue what environment he or she's in.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  We don't know anything about how people have grown up. Their experience on earth could be so different from ours. What about their parents?

• 1:02:17Speaker 02

  We were estranged from them.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  You were, both?

• 1:02:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. We had a brief period in Indiana where we were connected with my mom's mom and her stepdad. We lived there for three years, our three rich years. We were only really rich for one of those three years, but we were pretending to be rich for the last two. So her mom, my grandma, was kind of around. She was older, she was beginning to fail at that point. And actually, my mom, I always find this so devastating, but my mom found out that her mom died because she got a news clipping in the mail, maybe two months after her mom died.

• 1:02:52Dax Shepard?

  That's how she found out.

• 1:02:53Speaker 02

  That's how she found out, which is a really stark difference between the end of my mom's life. And I mean, I was in it. And that's the whole end of the book is this process of figuring out what to do with her stuff and what to do with my life and how things end for her. So they were just really estranged from their families.

• 1:03:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it also makes you think people are way weirder than you know.

• 1:03:16Speaker 01

  Well, my parents say that all the time. I'd be like, why can't we have something like this? They'd always just be like, you have no idea what's going on in people's homes. You see this thing, but you have no idea.

• 1:03:26Dax Shepard?

  Well, especially in this case where he was certainly a trusted pastor who you would go to for advice. And now your wisdom teeth. You didn't have any insurance. You need to get your wisdom teeth out.

• 1:03:36Speaker 02

  My dad, in our Detroit suburbs days, he made friends with a dentist who he would like play golf with. I think the dentist needed some like counseling help or something, popped into my dad's church. They strike up a friendship. The dentist offers to pay my dad for the counseling. And my dad says, well, I'll trade you. How about I come get my teeth cleaned and we'll just do it that way. So this was this kind of goofy dentist that my dad was friends with. And it was unusual. My dad really didn't have friends that much. So many people looked up to him, but he was never a peer socially with people. This guy, he was. And it was a couple of years. My dad and my brother were getting their teeth cleaned, basic dental stuff. And then when I was 18, I was about to go to college

• 1:04:18Speaker 02

  and I needed my wisdom teeth out. And my dad arranged it for free with this guy. And long story, he messed up. He wasn't an oral surgeon. He was just a dentist.

• 1:04:31Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 1:04:33Dax Shepard?

  He sewed her cheek to her gums.

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  Oh, that sort of happened to me. Not my cheek, but the back two were kind of connected.

• 1:04:42Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 1:04:43Speaker 01

  It could only open my mouth so wide.

• 1:04:45Dax Shepard?

  Oh, like sewed your gums together?

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  Like, yeah, the top gum to the bottom.

• 1:04:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:49Speaker 02

  Did that hurt?

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  I remember being like, why can't I open my mouth yet? It's been a lot of days. And so I went back in and they'll cut it. Maybe my parents also bargained.

• 1:04:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, it hurt a lot. I was a kid, I was like, I've never had my wisdom teeth out. Maybe it just like hurts a lot. And my dad was so sweet. I have these memories because I was taking quite a bit of Vicodin. Cause it kept hurting and I couldn't eat. It was problematic. And my dad was just sitting with me and kept offering to make me cream of wheat. He was so nice.

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  I love cream of wheat.

• 1:05:16Speaker 02

  I was a mess and we went in and the nurses were like, oh my God.

• 1:05:20Dax Shepard?

  Your whole mouth's sewn up here. We gotta cut some of these.

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  I'm impressed that you don't hate them.

• 1:05:26Speaker 02

  You know, hate isn't the word.

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  I know, that's like a really mean, harsh thing to say. But people are mad at their parents for a lot less.

• 1:05:34Speaker 02

  I know that. I have been very unhappy with them many times and in many ways. Time has passed.

• 1:05:41Dax Shepard?

  Well, this is when I was wondering, when I asked how having a kid impacted this. So my dad died 13 years ago. And I feel like over those 13 years, I've A, come to fully accept who he was in a way that I never did. I see him as a human. He ceased being this role of my dad and I see him as a human. Then I start to see like all these wonderful things about him. Now I just have this kind of deep sadness that I can't just be around him in full acceptance of him. No expectations of what he's supposed to be and just maybe enjoy him. And then I can't. So that's been my interesting kind of journey with it.

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  I'm totally at peace with my parents, although I'm not really interested in hanging with them. I was trying to think about, how do I say this? I spent my time with them and it was the time that it was. But I'm totally at peace. I'm not angry. The word hate, it's just not there. I just don't feel that. They did what they did. I think they did their best.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:38Speaker 02

  I think their best is wild. It's very few others best.

• 1:06:42Dax Shepard?

  Well, it's just beautifully written. Destroy this house in the 26th, it'll be out. So I hope everyone checks it out.

• 1:06:48Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:06:48Dax Shepard?

  It's a very, very honest and beautiful story. I think you should feel quite proud of it.

• 1:06:53Speaker 02

  Thanks for letting me talk about it with you too.

• 1:06:55Dax Shepard?

  Absolutely.

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  Thanks for coming.

• 1:06:59Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 1:07:06Dax Shepard?

  This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I have my dream job. I get to talk to folks I admire like crazy and ask them virtually any question that I want to. I can't imagine a better way to spend my time. But even dream jobs have some not so dreamy parts. The stuff that gets in the way of the actual work. Now that's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it. Start to finish. Cases closed. Requests handled. No extra work for you. So you and your team can focus on what matters most, which for me is, are they obsessed with male bodies on the same level as I am?

• 1:07:48Speaker 01

  They never are.

• 1:07:49Dax Shepard?

  To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. We are supported by Walden University. You know that feeling when you've been thinking about making a move, going after the degree, the promotion, the thing you keep telling yourself you'll get to someday? Walden University is built for that moment. For over 50 years, Walden has helped working professionals get the W, the knowledge, the skills, and the confidence to create real change in their careers and communities. Their programs are designed around your life, not the other way around. With Tempo Learning, available in select programs, there are no rigid schedules or set weekly deadlines. You move at your own pace. And Walden's

• 1:08:31Dax Shepard?

  faculty aren't just academics. They're practitioners who bring real world experience into everything they teach. From your first class to career coaching and beyond, Walden is your partner the whole way. Take the first step and learn at a pace that works for you. Visit waldenu.edu. Walden University. Set a course for change. Certified to operate by CHEV. We get support from Instagram, teen accounts. So, we talk a lot on this show about how the world is different now than when we were growing up. And one of the biggest differences is obviously social media. And I think a lot of people wonder, okay, Okay, what's actually being done to make it safer for teenagers?

• 1:09:11Speaker 01

  Which is a fair question.

• 1:09:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so Instagram has got something called teen accounts and they come with automatic protections built in by default. So anyone between 13 and 17 is automatically placed into this experience. They get age appropriate content settings, contact limits, so that by default, only people they're already connected to can message them. And time management tools, daily time limit reminders, and also sleep mode that mutes notifications from 10pm to 7am.

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  Sleep mode is genius.

• 1:09:40Dax Shepard?

  Right? And here's the thing, for anyone under 16, a parent has to give permission to change any of those settings to be less strict. The guardrails are on and Instagram keeps building new safety features to create age appropriate experiences for teens.

• 1:09:55Speaker 01

  I am really glad Instagram's helping to give parents peace of mind with teen accounts.

• 1:10:00Dax Shepard?

  Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com/teenaccounts. We get support by Peloton. You know that feeling when you're spiraling over a problem and you just can't figure it out? When that happens to me, I need a change of pace and I've found that running is the best way. It takes my brain out of the driver's seat and I come back with a fresh perspective. Running can be freeing and cathartic and Peloton helps you feel all of that. And now that feeling fits wherever you need it with the new Peloton Tread Flex. It's movable and foldable, designed to fit your life. So next time you feel stuck, you can go for a run literally anywhere, whether that's in your office, living room, or even the attic.

• 1:10:44Dax Shepard?

  Plus, they have classes with expert instructors and programs to meet you at any level and keep you moving. Let yourself run. Explore the new Peloton Tread Flex at onepeloton.com.

• 1:11:00Speaker 05

  Stay tuned for the fact check. It's where the party's at.

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  You have...

• 1:11:09Dax Shepard?

  Powder?

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, but I don't have cocaine.

• 1:11:13Dax Shepard?

  I just did a ton of cocaine. About three grams. Hundred and eighty dollars.

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  Forgot how to do it.

• 1:11:22Dax Shepard?

  I spent a while. Twenty... Twenty-one years in the next week and, uh, yeah, I've forgotten how.

• 1:11:30Speaker 01

  Twenty-one years, wow.

• 1:11:32Dax Shepard?

  Twenty-one years.

• 1:11:33Speaker 01

  That's a long time.

• 1:11:35Dax Shepard?

  It's too long.

• 1:11:36Speaker 01

  Ironically, that's when people can start drinking.

• 1:11:39Dax Shepard?

  That is ironic.

• 1:11:42Dax Shepard?

  So, yeah, twenty-one years since I've done coke and I just got it all over my face because I don't know what I'm doing.

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:11:48Dax Shepard?

  For the listener and viewer, I put powder on my face before these, now that we're on video.

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  It's shocking.

• 1:11:53Dax Shepard?

  And I came in and I was pretty much covered in powder.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, white powder, but I wasn't scared.

• 1:11:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:01Speaker 01

  I wasn't scared at all. Have you been crying?

• 1:12:04Dax Shepard?

  No, does it also look like I was crying?

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:07Dax Shepard?

  Wow, I'm a real mess. I thought I was doing great. I worked out, had a fun chat on the phone.

• 1:12:13Speaker 01

  Oh, maybe, maybe your workout caused you to cry a little.

• 1:12:16Dax Shepard?

  So do I look puffy or my eyes look irritated?

• 1:12:19Speaker 01

  They just look a little red.

• 1:12:23Speaker 01

  But in a sad way, like you cried.

• 1:12:25Dax Shepard?

  Oh, no, no, no, I didn't cry today. Yeah, although I could have cried this morning.

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  Oh, maybe you didn't, you forgot?

• 1:12:33Dax Shepard?

  They're doing an insane instruction, construction project in front of the house.

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  Oh, I know.

• 1:12:38Dax Shepard?

  Like a city.

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  It's so annoying.

• 1:12:40Dax Shepard?

  Tearing up sidewalks and drilling into the pavement and the house is shaking.

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  Uh-huh.

• 1:12:47Dax Shepard?

  Starting at about six thirty, seven a.m. it starts shaking to the degree I'm shocked it hasn't shut off the gas yet because the gas has an earthquake, uh, emergency shut-off valve on it. It's gone off before. Whiskey's going berserk. He does not understand. It's a construction project. He thinks the, uh, house is gonna fall down and that...

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  Whiskey the dog with three legs.

• 1:13:09Dax Shepard?

  Whiskey the dog with three legs. So he, you know, he already... He has a whole routine. I'm trying to meditate and trying to journal and he barks. So I put him on the bed. That's normally okay. And then I put him on the bed and then he chills. But now his move is I put him on the bed. He's on there for 20 seconds. There's an earthquake. He jumps off. He runs in a circle. Then he comes back to the bed and starts barking. I pick him up. I put him back on. He stays for 12 seconds and this was going on. I mean, this was, this was madness. It was madness.

• 1:13:38Speaker 01

  And you wanted to cry.

• 1:13:39Dax Shepard?

  I, well, you know what I thought? And it's a testament to pause when agitated, as they say in the program.

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. PWA.

• 1:13:48Dax Shepard?

  Actually, I'm still, I'm not sure where this is. I'm like, I'm, I'm moving downstairs. It's time.

• 1:13:53Speaker 01

  Forever.

• 1:13:54Dax Shepard?

  Because the girls are also coming in and out of the bedroom to do, they, they love using our bathroom. I don't know why. They have a beautiful bathroom. They will, they will not use it.

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  Oh, boy. Okay.

• 1:14:03Dax Shepard?

  And every time, so at some point I had to put whiskey in the hallway. I couldn't do anything.

• 1:14:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:07Dax Shepard?

  And then every time they come in, I'm trying to, shut the door. They don't shut the door. Whiskey's back. You do the whole circle. And then

• 1:14:16Dax Shepard?

  I, at some point I was like, I'm gonna, I'm moving downstairs into the downstairs bedroom. That's where I'm gonna be where I live now.

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:14:24Dax Shepard?

  TBD.

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  Oh, so you're still, it's still, you haven't.

• 1:14:27Dax Shepard?

  The pause when agitated was I was gonna announce that, which is, I'm glad I didn't announce that. Cause also now, a couple hours later, I don't, I don't feel as resolute about moving downstairs.

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:14:38Dax Shepard?

  And I was like, good thing I didn't announce that. That could have caused everyone to, you know.

• 1:14:42Speaker 01

  Okay. So actually.

• 1:14:43Dax Shepard?

  Both girls were mad at me, you know, cause I'm like.

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  Sounds like I really nailed it.

• 1:14:49Dax Shepard?

  That I was crying.

• 1:14:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And then I did cocaine in response.

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think I am very intuitive. I know I am very intuitive.

• 1:14:57Dax Shepard?

  What if I tried to call, like, obviously I would have no clue where to get that drug anymore. What if I called the dealer from 21 years ago? It was like, hey, hi, hey, remember?

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:15:12Dax Shepard?

  And then that person was like, hey, man, I've, obviously I don't still do this. I would have been in prison or quit.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  Or dead. Um, you're supposed to delete that from your phone, right?

• 1:15:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I don't even know. Yeah. That was also like 25 phones ago.

• 1:15:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true. Um.

• 1:15:30Speaker 01

  Please don't do cocaine this weekend because it's my birthday weekend has started.

• 1:15:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm not ever gonna do cocaine again.

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  Okay, but just like especially not this weekend.

• 1:15:41Dax Shepard?

  Maybe on my deathbed.

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:15:43Dax Shepard?

  No?

• 1:15:44Speaker 01

  You won't even have, you won't even be able to like-

• 1:15:46Dax Shepard?

  No, I'll have to have my family put it in my nose.

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  Is that how you want to spend it? No, you want to spend it touching, touching everyone and holding everyone saying yeah.

• 1:15:57Dax Shepard?

  I'll still be doing that.

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

  You won't be present.

• 1:16:01Dax Shepard?

  I will be ultra present.

• 1:16:02Speaker 01

  No, no. Fine, I can't tell you what to do on your deathbed. I'm just asking you not to do it this weekend.

• 1:16:08Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I'm not gonna. No, won't do it.

• 1:16:10Speaker 01

  Um, my birthday luck has started.

• 1:16:12Dax Shepard?

  Why's your hair look so nice?

• 1:16:13Speaker 01

  Wow. That was a great setup.

• 1:16:18Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  I wasn't, you know.

• 1:16:20Dax Shepard?

  You were nervous to brag about it.

• 1:16:22Speaker 01

  Well, sometimes we talk about products, sometimes we don't, whatever. But I use Rose hair products. They're incredible hair products. Rosie.

• 1:16:30Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:16:31Speaker 01

  Okay, they really are. Shampoo, conditioner, there's an oil and a lubricant.

• 1:16:37Dax Shepard?

  I use it too.

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  You do?

• 1:16:39Dax Shepard?

  As a conditioner.

• 1:16:41Speaker 01

  Great conditioner.

• 1:16:41Dax Shepard?

  I have to use a save your hair shampoo.

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:16:45Dax Shepard?

  Of course, but then I, with the conditioner, I do R O Z.

• 1:16:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a, it's a great brand, um, owned by Mara Rozak, who is a celebrity hairstylist. She does Emma Stone.

• 1:16:56Dax Shepard?

  Oh my goodness.

• 1:16:56Speaker 01

  And lots of amazing people. And she's the sweetest lady.

• 1:16:59Dax Shepard?

  Oh, perfect.

• 1:17:00Speaker 01

  Anyway, um, I love that hairline and then they sent me, they did a collab with the great, an incredible clothing company, but they did this collab where they made a hair, a towel, a hair towel.

• 1:17:18Dax Shepard?

  A hair towel?

• 1:17:19Speaker 01

  That, you know, you, you know why you like?

• 1:17:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:21Speaker 01

  Turn your head down, you wrap your hair and you, you pull it up.

• 1:17:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:25Speaker 01

  But it's a mix, it's like terry cloth mixed with like, um, sweatshirt material.

• 1:17:30Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  And, and it like sticks itself in this little strap and whatever. It's, it's, it's comfortable. And when I use that thing, my hair looks so good the next day.

• 1:17:42Dax Shepard?

  Wow, so do you sleep in it?

• 1:17:44Speaker 01

  No, I just keep it on for.

• 1:17:46Dax Shepard?

  Post shower for an hour?

• 1:17:47Speaker 01

  Uh huh, for as long until bed and then, and then I go to bed.

• 1:17:51Dax Shepard?

  And then you wake up and you're back in their herbal essence.

• 1:17:54Speaker 01

  And I'm mermaid.

• 1:17:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, it's looks great.

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  Thank you. Um, so shout out to all those products.

• 1:18:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and folks.

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  And folks.

• 1:18:02Dax Shepard?

  I sure hope you're getting paid on the side.

• 1:18:03Speaker 01

  I'm not. I am really not. I would love to if they're gonna do a campaign. I think I'd be a great candidate. I have experience with herbal essence, how I got my start.

• 1:18:14Dax Shepard?

  And they're, they're thriving.

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  You know, I was at Mahjong with, I guess I'll throw them under the bus, Anthony and Rachel and I forget who else was there. My Mahjong set is beautiful as we.

• 1:18:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I would have guessed that.

• 1:18:27Speaker 01

  People who play Mahjong will understand this, the winds have mermaids on them. Which is why I was drawn to this in the first one. I'm very drawn to mermaids, even though I don't like the sea. This part, that part we don't talk about. So I was.

• 1:18:41Dax Shepard?

  You like when they come to shore?

• 1:18:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, when they're sitting on their rock.

• 1:18:44Dax Shepard?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:18:45Speaker 01

  Um, but I said that I, the herbal essence commercial.

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  God, how did I phrase it? I should check with Anthony, but I think I said like, that's the best thing that's ever happened to me and he could not. He was like, no.

• 1:19:05Dax Shepard?

  Why did you, why do you say claim that?

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  Because.

• 1:19:08Dax Shepard?

  Did you get your SAG card or something from it?

• 1:19:10Speaker 01

  Um, I don't remember. I might have already had it. I, I don't remember about that, but I got paid double scale.

• 1:19:18Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:19:19Speaker 01

  At that time, that is, so for people who don't know, scale is the lowest amount you can get paid on a project.

• 1:19:28Dax Shepard?

  Negotiated by the union.

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  SAG, yes. It's the lowest you can get paid and most commercials you get paid scale.

• 1:19:36Dax Shepard?

  Yep.

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  And this commercial was double scale. It, it was unheard of.

• 1:19:42Dax Shepard?

  Because you were in swimwear, why, why was it double?

• 1:19:44Speaker 01

  I don't know why.

• 1:19:45Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:19:46Speaker 01

  But, I mean, it was a really grueling shoot, so maybe, but um, it was double scale.

• 1:19:52Dax Shepard?

  Partial nudity?

• 1:19:53Speaker 01

  It was partial nude and, and you had to swim and I like. lied.

• 1:19:59Dax Shepard?

  So stunt pay maybe?

• 1:20:00Speaker 01

  I lied.

• 1:20:01Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh. Well.

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  And then it was really bad when I had to do it, like I couldn't really do it.

• 1:20:06Dax Shepard?

  Really?

• 1:20:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I I could.

• 1:20:09Dax Shepard?

  But you didn't look elegant.

• 1:20:10Speaker 01

  I didn't look good.

• 1:20:11Dax Shepard?

  You didn't look like a mermaid.

• 1:20:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I couldn't get under deep enough. So anyway.

• 1:20:15Dax Shepard?

  Look more like a chimpanzee trying to swim.

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:18Speaker 01

  Or like dog, you know, the dog.

• 1:20:19Dax Shepard?

  Well, they can swim pretty good.

• 1:20:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's how I kind of am, like I'm like a half above water.

• 1:20:24Dax Shepard?

  Doggy paddle, yeah.

• 1:20:25Speaker 01

  So anyway, um, it was a huge commercial to get. Every girl auditioned for that commercial.

• 1:20:34Dax Shepard?

  Confidence builder.

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  It was a huge confidence builder and I, um.

• 1:20:39Dax Shepard?

  Like I can be in a pretty, I could be in a commercial with pretty people being a mermaid.

• 1:20:44Speaker 01

  It wasn't even about pretty people. It was just like, I just got validation that I can be here.

• 1:20:50Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:20:51Speaker 01

  It was the fir-, it was my first real commercial.

• 1:20:54Dax Shepard?

  National commercial.

• 1:20:55Speaker 01

  National commercial, yeah.

• 1:20:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:56Speaker 01

  And and everyone auditioned. So of course, when I first got there, I was like, oh, my God, I'm never getting this.

• 1:21:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  And then when I did, it was just like beautiful confirmation that I belonged.

• 1:21:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:09Speaker 01

  And it was enough. It was enough to keep me in the game.

• 1:21:12Dax Shepard?

  Yep.

• 1:21:12Speaker 01

  So I think that's the best thing that ever happened to me. But Anthony did not like that.

• 1:21:17Dax Shepard?

  He didn't like it.

• 1:21:18Speaker 01

  And I thought he would like it, because it's like.

• 1:21:20Dax Shepard?

  I mean, and similarly, punk's the best thing that ever happened to me.

• 1:21:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:21:24Dax Shepard?

  It started the entire thing without that show.

• 1:21:27Speaker 01

  That's a bigger deal than my commercial, like he just.

• 1:21:30Dax Shepard?

  But I couldn't book commercials, so punk was my herbal essence. I booked two commercials in eight years.

• 1:21:36Speaker 01

  I know, but for him, he'd be like, punk is. You're showing your real talent.

• 1:21:42Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:21:42Speaker 01

  It's.

• 1:21:42Dax Shepard?

  So were you, your hair.

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  Now I'm doing, now I'm having to be him. Yeah, and this is the commercial that I got my ring.

• 1:21:49Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  My special ring that did lose us the election, but that's okay.

• 1:21:54Dax Shepard?

  But now it's back.

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  It's back. Um, so, yeah, he didn't like that at all, but I stand by it.

• 1:21:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I I'll co-sign on that.

• 1:22:00Speaker 01

  I might not be here if it wasn't for that.

• 1:22:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:03Speaker 01

  So I have to.

• 1:22:04Dax Shepard?

  When it moved back to.

• 1:22:06Speaker 01

  I might have. I might have been like, I, this, I can't.

• 1:22:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:09Speaker 01

  It's so grueling.

• 1:22:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  Um, so, thank you Herbal Essence.

• 1:22:15Dax Shepard?

  Herbal essence.

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  I think, but sometimes people say that's the confusion. Anyway, my birthday like has started. I was able to turn left out of my apartment today.

• 1:22:26Dax Shepard?

  Okay, can you not always do that?

• 1:22:28Speaker 01

  Very rare.

• 1:22:29Dax Shepard?

  Really?

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz it's, I live off of a very populist.

• 1:22:36Dax Shepard?

  Why don't you just wait for the light to turn on?

• 1:22:38Speaker 01

  No, because I get stressed. I get stressed if people are behind me.

• 1:22:42Dax Shepard?

  Turn left, everything is wait for that light to turn and then I turn into the left turn lane, which is always open. And then I go to the thing and I bang a left and then I bang a right on frankly.

• 1:22:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, but I, I.

• 1:22:53Dax Shepard?

  It's a good route.

• 1:22:54Speaker 01

  In the morning, at this time.

• 1:22:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:56Speaker 01

  There's, it's pretty heavy traffic.

• 1:22:59Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  There's a buildup and even when, even, listen, I do this every day. So sometimes I'm able to turn left because I'm catching it at the exact right moment.

• 1:23:09Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:23:10Speaker 01

  And mostly I don't, I can't. Um, but today I did and it was a good sign.

• 1:23:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, good birthday, Juju. Yeah. And you got a present. Do you wanna dare open it?

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, so somebody sent a present.

• 1:23:25Dax Shepard?

  To TT?

• 1:23:26Speaker 01

  Yes, to me via Carly.

• 1:23:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:30Speaker 01

  Um, and I haven't opened it yet, so I have no idea what it is, but Carly opens the things first and she texted and said.

• 1:23:38Dax Shepard?

  It's not a bomb.

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. She said, someone sent you a really cool gift. I think you'll want it.

• 1:23:44Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:23:45Speaker 01

  So I'm gonna open it.

• 1:23:47Dax Shepard?

  Put it on that, that, there we go. And now you can open it presentation style.

• 1:23:51Speaker 01

  Now, it has a.

• 1:23:53Dax Shepard?

  You know when I would see people at CPK, I was required to say, would you like to sit in front of our exhibition style kitchen?

• 1:24:00Speaker 01

  You said that.

• 1:24:01Dax Shepard?

  I had to.

• 1:24:02Speaker 01

  I'm shocked you did it.

• 1:24:03Dax Shepard?

  Familiar with the menu. I had to say what my favorite app was. You know, there was a whole playbook.

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  What was your favorite app?

• 1:24:11Dax Shepard?

  Um, this spinach artichoke dip.

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  Duh.

• 1:24:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. It was before I was calorie conscious.

• 1:24:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, spinach artichoke dip.

• 1:24:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  There's nothing better. Okay. Hi, Monica. We're, we're big fans of the pod at Heritage Gear and thought you'd like one of our UGA bags. Go Bulldogs!

• 1:24:34Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my.

• 1:24:35Speaker 01

  All our best, Dan and Brian. Oh, my.

• 1:24:38Dax Shepard?

  Dan, Brian.

• 1:24:40Speaker 01

  Brian? Whoa.

• 1:24:42Dax Shepard?

  Whoa, this just feels couture.

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  It does.

• 1:24:45Dax Shepard?

  Is this an Atelier?

• 1:24:46Speaker 01

  It's a luxury. Oh, wow.

• 1:24:49Dax Shepard?

  Oh, what a good beach bag for you.

• 1:24:51Speaker 01

  This is beautiful.

• 1:24:52Dax Shepard?

  You're always at the beach.

• 1:24:54Speaker 01

  I love the beach.

• 1:24:54Dax Shepard?

  Can't keep you away from the beach.

• 1:24:55Speaker 01

  Well, mermaids.

• 1:24:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:56Speaker 01

  You know. Okay, this is beautiful.

• 1:24:59Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 1:24:59Speaker 01

  Thank you, Dan and Brian.

• 1:25:01Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  Lovely bag, really well constructed leather. Um, we've got like a nice soft.

• 1:25:08Dax Shepard?

  You might be able to wrap your hair in that at night. It looks like it's kind of the material you were describing.

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  Wow, how cool. This is great.

• 1:25:15Dax Shepard?

  That is wonderful.

• 1:25:17Speaker 01

  Thank you. How sweet.

• 1:25:18Dax Shepard?

  Yes, that's really a nice gift.

• 1:25:21Speaker 01

  And now every time someone says like, roll tide or whatever.

• 1:25:26Dax Shepard?

  You can hit them with that bag. You should fill that bag with bars of soap and marbles. So it really packs a wallop when you connect.

• 1:25:34Speaker 01

  Wow. Oh, my God. This is the row.

• 1:25:37Dax Shepard?

  Wow. Oh, great segue.

• 1:25:40Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:25:41Dax Shepard?

  I read in comments, someone wanted me to tell you that the row has a playlist. Did you already know this?

• 1:25:45Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:25:46Dax Shepard?

  How did you know this?

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  I've known.

• 1:25:47Dax Shepard?

  But how'd you know what I was gonna say?

• 1:25:48Speaker 01

  Because so many people.

• 1:25:50Dax Shepard?

  Have been telling you.

• 1:25:52Speaker 01

  Yes, and I don't mean to be this girl.

• 1:25:54Dax Shepard?

  Don't go any further.

• 1:25:55Speaker 01

  I'm gone. I'm gonna. You guys, you think I don't know? I mean, I also like that people are looking out for me. That's so sweet. But I got multiple texts about it.

• 1:26:05Dax Shepard?

  You get offended that people think you're not in the know.

• 1:26:07Speaker 01

  No, but I feel, I feel, um. Conflicted because I wanted to just be like, oh my gosh, thanks. But also, the truth is, I've known about these playlists for years.

• 1:26:19Dax Shepard?

  What kind of music's on the playlist?

• 1:26:20Speaker 01

  All kinds. It is vibey. It's a good playlist. But I've known about this for quite a long time because I get emails.

• 1:26:29Dax Shepard?

  From The Row?

• 1:26:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:31Dax Shepard?

  Okay, because you're all dialed in with their circulars and...

• 1:26:34Speaker 01

  For some reason, this did like hit all of a sudden. I don't know if it was on TikTok or something.

• 1:26:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:40Speaker 01

  Where everyone was texting about this on the same day. So they must have upped their marketing on this.

• 1:26:47Dax Shepard?

  Right. Yeah, that makes sense.

• 1:26:49Speaker 01

  Which is interesting.

• 1:26:50Dax Shepard?

  It's in the zeitgeist.

• 1:26:51Speaker 01

  Speaking of The Row, let's talk about Halloween.

• 1:26:55Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  So you, we were at the Richardson's for Eric's birthday. You and the boys. Happy birthday, Eric. It's my birthday now, so, um, okay. And so, um, you were in the sauna.

• 1:27:06Dax Shepard?

  What do we say for girls? Like, boys have sausage party?

• 1:27:08Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:27:09Dax Shepard?

  Clam? Clambake?

• 1:27:11Speaker 01

  Ew, uh, no. That's disgusting.

• 1:27:17Dax Shepard?

  Is that a thing or did we just make that up? Because that's pretty funny. I feel like I saw it on a TV show recently where they were talking about that.

• 1:27:23Speaker 01

  Oh my god, that's disgusting.

• 1:27:25Dax Shepard?

  Was it a sausage party or a clambake? Oh, I really like clambake. I'm gonna, I think I'm gonna try to incorporate that more often.

• 1:27:32Speaker 01

  Okay, great. Um, so the girls were talking about Halloween.

• 1:27:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:36Speaker 01

  And as you said, I think, you brought this up the other day, but I think we are kind of moving forward, I'm pretty sure.

• 1:27:43Dax Shepard?

  With the pun costumes?

• 1:27:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, which puns isn't, it's like, it's a mashup.

• 1:27:48Dax Shepard?

  Okay, yeah, that's a better description.

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  So you have...

• 1:27:51Dax Shepard?

  A linking word.

• 1:27:52Speaker 01

  Exactly, like...

• 1:27:54Dax Shepard?

  A linked concept. Burt Reynolds rap.

• 1:27:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is great. So I've decided I'm gonna be the Row, Row, Row Your Boat.

• 1:28:05Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  So I'll be...

• 1:28:08Dax Shepard?

  Adorned?

• 1:28:08Speaker 01

  It's an opportunity to shop. And then I'll carry some sort of aura or have a boat around me.

• 1:28:13Dax Shepard?

  Okay. That's gonna, that sounds very cumbersome.

• 1:28:16Speaker 01

  Why?

• 1:28:17Dax Shepard?

  Like, are you gonna take this on the, um, on the hayride and then for trick or treating? Or just at the house for the pre-party?

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  I mean, I'll probably need to carry the oar.

• 1:28:26Dax Shepard?

  If you have a kayak around you or something.

• 1:28:28Speaker 01

  Maybe I'll just go oar.

• 1:28:30Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great. Yeah.

• 1:28:31Speaker 01

  Um, but I'm excited.

• 1:28:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:34Speaker 01

  I'm excited to go shopping. What are you gonna do?

• 1:28:36Dax Shepard?

  I was trying to make up one with Ferrari so that I had an excuse to buy a Ferrari.

• 1:28:40Speaker 01

  You can.

• 1:28:41Dax Shepard?

  Ferrari Lee.

• 1:28:42Speaker 01

  Ferriana.

• 1:28:45Dax Shepard?

  Ariana.

• 1:28:46Speaker 01

  Ferriana or Ferriana Grande.

• 1:28:49Dax Shepard?

  Oh my god, Ferriana Grande. Now I'm into the concept. Cause I like Ariana Grande.

• 1:28:56Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:28:56Dax Shepard?

  A lot, and I like Ferraris even more.

• 1:28:59Speaker 01

  I understand.

• 1:29:00Dax Shepard?

  But I would never own one. You need a big one, a grande one. Oh, well.

• 1:29:06Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:29:06Dax Shepard?

  So the SUVs that they've, well, not SUV, the FF, I'm not gonna bore you with the bigger Ferraris.

• 1:29:13Speaker 01

  Thank you. This is my birthday.

• 1:29:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:29:15Speaker 01

  Oh, you could even do, there's a lot, cause you could do a grande coffee cup.

• 1:29:20Dax Shepard?

  Ferriana. Oh, but you leave Ferrari out of it. Just stick with Ariana Grande latte. Ariana Grande latte.

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  Ferr- Ferr- Ferriana Grande latte is like, you'd have to wear a blonde wig.

• 1:29:34Dax Shepard?

  Three things going?

• 1:29:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, blonde wig of like some Ferrari, you're in like a Ferrari F1 costume or whatever.

• 1:29:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:42Speaker 01

  Costume, you know, uniform. What do they call it? Race suit. Okay. Yeah, blonde hair and then you're holding a grande coffee cup.

• 1:29:51Dax Shepard?

  That's great. That's right. How do I do Ariana? It's the blonde hair? Or I'll be singing Wicked the whole night, maybe?

• 1:29:57Speaker 01

  Both.

• 1:29:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, both of that. Okay. I guess we found mine.

• 1:30:00Speaker 01

  So that's great.

• 1:30:01Dax Shepard?

  Rob? Got one up the top of your. I don't have one.

• 1:30:06Speaker 01

  What do you wanna buy?

• 1:30:07Dax Shepard?

  Yours would be so easy, cause you have so many bands you like. Yeah.

• 1:30:10Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 1:30:11Dax Shepard?

  I mean, no one will know what his is. Cause he, he refuses to like a band that anyone knows.

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  I think people are not gonna know a lot of them. We're gonna have to wear tags.

• 1:30:21Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay. All right. But isn't the fun of it staring at someone trying to figure out what it is? But what I'm saying is Rob won't, he's gonna pick a band like. I'll pick like Phoebe Bridge. The Muff Flappers. Phoebe Bridgers.

• 1:30:34Speaker 01

  I love, everyone knows Phoebe Bridgers. That's a great one.

• 1:30:37Dax Shepard?

  Phoebe Bridges over Madison County.

• 1:30:40Speaker 01

  But it's Bridgers.

• 1:30:42Dax Shepard?

  BB Bridgerton?

• 1:30:44Speaker 01

  Oh, I have another update.

• 1:30:45Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great. You're on fire. Because yesterday, well, I guess it was, it was two days ago, you were struggling.

• 1:30:53Speaker 01

  I know, and I actually have an update on that, too.

• 1:30:55Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:30:56Speaker 01

  I think I am wrong. I think I was wrong. I think I was further along in my PMS than I anticipated. I think I am about to start my period. Which you, you did-

• 1:31:12Dax Shepard?

  I mansplained to you.

• 1:31:13Speaker 01

  You mansplained.

• 1:31:14Dax Shepard?

  Unfortunately, sometimes us men are right.

• 1:31:16Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 1:31:17Dax Shepard?

  Sometimes we are. We're gonna get it right every now and then.

• 1:31:21Speaker 01

  This is what happens.

• 1:31:21Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:31:23Speaker 01

  I actually was some days late last month.

• 1:31:27Dax Shepard?

  Oh, and then you reset your thing, but it's, it adhered to the previous rhythm.

• 1:31:32Speaker 01

  I think so. I think so.

• 1:31:34Dax Shepard?

  I mean, the backward shirt, the hurting back, the every, I won't add some of the other symptoms you shared with me.

• 1:31:41Speaker 01

  My stomach hurts.

• 1:31:42Dax Shepard?

  You thought you had the harness.

• 1:31:43Speaker 01

  Well, I, I felt like I should have it, but I wasn't.

• 1:31:46Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:31:47Speaker 01

  Which is cramps.

• 1:31:49Dax Shepard?

  Which is pretty telltale signs.

• 1:31:51Speaker 01

  Straightforward cramps. Yeah, so I think, um, it's coming, which I am worried.

• 1:31:57Dax Shepard?

  On your birthday?

• 1:31:58Speaker 01

  Because I've got this pool party.

• 1:31:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but you can go to a pool party on, on your-

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  No one wants to have a pool party on their period.

• 1:32:05Dax Shepard?

  They don't?

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  No, it sucks. Because you're like bloated, you have to wear a tampon and, or period underwear, but I'll probably wear a tampon.

• 1:32:13Dax Shepard?

  Well, now we might wear a tampon.

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  Oh, at a, at a pool party, yeah.

• 1:32:16Dax Shepard?

  There's a lot of things going my way right now.

• 1:32:20Speaker 01

  No, they're not.

• 1:32:22Dax Shepard?

  There are.

• 1:32:23Speaker 01

  You're making everything so like-

• 1:32:25Dax Shepard?

  We had a fight that you swear you don't ever wear a tampon.

• 1:32:29Speaker 01

  At the pool? I do.

• 1:32:31Dax Shepard?

  Just hold.

• 1:32:33Dax Shepard?

  So you never had a tampon and now you're wearing a tampon, now your period's actually here.

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  Stop using the word never. That's not fair or accurate.

• 1:32:43Dax Shepard?

  You recently told me there's a comedian no longer like that. I didn't like. Things are really, things are really going my way this week and I'm not even pushing. I'm just like gently hanging out and I do admire your integrity for reporting these. It's admirable.

• 1:32:59Speaker 01

  The, the, the thing-

• 1:33:00Dax Shepard?

  Like you, you were incentivized to just keep this period thing a secret from me.

• 1:33:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was.

• 1:33:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I admire you.

• 1:33:06Speaker 01

  I brought that to you. I, and I agree you were right about it.

• 1:33:10Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:33:10Speaker 01

  But maybe, we'll see when the period comes.

• 1:33:12Dax Shepard?

  We'll see.

• 1:33:13Speaker 01

  Okay. But also you're not right about the tampon.

• 1:33:15Dax Shepard?

  T B P.

• 1:33:16Speaker 01

  You are not right about that. I have ne- I, if I am in a pool situation and I'm on my period, I have to wear a tampon.

• 1:33:23Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:33:24Speaker 01

  I've never said otherwise. You were right about another person too, but I'm gonna leave it at that.

• 1:33:30Dax Shepard?

  Okay, we'll leave it.

• 1:33:31Speaker 01

  Okay, now, now.

• 1:33:33Dax Shepard?

  I'm just gonna humbly now take, I'm not gonna glow and I'm gonna just say thank you for your integrity. It's really, it's really brave and admirable of you, yeah.

• 1:33:41Speaker 01

  Thank you. You're welcome.

• 1:33:43Dax Shepard?

  You guys are talking about Ike Barinholtz?

• 1:33:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, Rob.

• 1:33:47Dax Shepard?

  Ike Barinholtz is the greatest. I was just on the phone talking about Ike Barinholtz.

• 1:33:53Speaker 01

  He's the best there ever was.

• 1:33:54Dax Shepard?

  Seconds before I walked in here.

• 1:33:55Speaker 01

  We just love him so much.

• 1:33:56Dax Shepard?

  I was talking to Joy. Joy's going to Burning Man.

• 1:34:00Speaker 01

  Oh, fun. For the first time?

• 1:34:03Dax Shepard?

  Second time.

• 1:34:04Speaker 01

  Okay. She's a burner. I would not-

• 1:34:07Dax Shepard?

  Yes, and she was breaking it down for me. I'm like, yeah, fuck it. I think you gotta experience that thing before you leave planet Earth, for sure.

• 1:34:14Speaker 01

  I'm good.

• 1:34:15Dax Shepard?

  You're good.

• 1:34:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. But I'm happy for Joy. Joy's-

• 1:34:19Dax Shepard?

  You know me, I wanna dance and watch a fire and the art and the people, maybe get an electric bicycle and, oh man, maybe I'll paint myself.

• 1:34:27Speaker 01

  Oh wow. That's fun. You should go with her.

• 1:34:29Dax Shepard?

  I'm putting it on my, I said I'm, this is my 2026 New Year's resolution.

• 1:34:33Speaker 01

  Cause we have-

• 1:34:34Dax Shepard?

  It's Labor Day is the problem.

• 1:34:36Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:34:37Dax Shepard?

  Like I got half of mine to just go now, but we're going to Nashville for Labor Day.

• 1:34:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can't go.

• 1:34:44Dax Shepard?

  So can't do it. So it's gonna have to be a 2026 resolution.

• 1:34:47Speaker 01

  Speaking of Nashville, I'm all over the place.

• 1:34:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:51Speaker 01

  Um, I was at Cara.

• 1:34:53Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:34:54Speaker 01

  The other day and a very nice man came up to me. He's in a band that plays there sometimes. He's introduced himself before. He's very, very nice and he's an armchair.

• 1:35:05Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:35:06Speaker 01

  Oh, this was on Wednesday because it was the day that Nancy Segal, the twin expert came out.

• 1:35:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, this is when you were struggling too.

• 1:35:14Speaker 01

  I was, I was struggling, yeah. And he came up and he was like, twin expert. Oh my God. Like he loved it.

• 1:35:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:35:23Speaker 01

  And he was talking about that. And then he said, and this is not, I don't want you to get defensive.

• 1:35:27Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:35:28Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:35:30Dax Shepard?

  Probably go to now. I know something negative's coming.

• 1:35:33Speaker 01

  No, it was like, it was like.

• 1:35:34Dax Shepard?

  No one's ever said like, I don't want you to get defensive. She said, you're hot. A compliment's never following. I hope you don't get.

• 1:35:40Speaker 01

  I know, I'm just, you're right. Um, it, it's not, it wasn't a negative towards you. It was a positive towards me.

• 1:35:46Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow. That's not negative towards me.

• 1:35:48Speaker 01

  Well, you're involved. Um, so he, he, he said, I want to thank you for defending Los Angeles so much.

• 1:35:56Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:35:56Speaker 01

  And I was like, oh, that's nice.

• 1:35:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. I wonder if people start throwing eggs at me in Los Angeles now that I've been vocally.

• 1:36:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, you've been really hard on it for no reason whatsoever.

• 1:36:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:07Speaker 01

  And he was like, look, I get it, but he's from Texas.

• 1:36:12Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:36:13Speaker 01

  And he's a musician. So he's like, spent a lot of time in Nashville and he was like, it's great. He was like, but I like.

• 1:36:21Dax Shepard?

  He likes it here.

• 1:36:22Speaker 01

  This place is special.

• 1:36:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:24Speaker 01

  And.

• 1:36:25Dax Shepard?

  Oh, it's hugely special.

• 1:36:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:27Dax Shepard?

  My issues with it, this is a very special, wonderful city. I'd argue it's in the top five cities in America. But we're very densely populated.

• 1:36:37Speaker 01

  We are.

• 1:36:37Dax Shepard?

  Driving around as a beat down, the place is burning down. It has its challenges and I've just enjoyed kind of us.

• 1:36:43Speaker 01

  It's just when we say the place is burning down, like that unfortunately feels like you weren't saying that when that was happening. But now you're saying it because you spent time somewhere else. Like you were actually, you hated when people were saying that. You were like, people are overreacting and saying like the air or the this.

• 1:37:01Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, but that, no, no, no. No, yes, I wasn't like all spun out about it. But I'm saying, we have fires every year. Bel Air catches on fire every year. It's a stressful place there, you know, that's also a reality. I love it here. I mean, the same can be said about anyone in the hurricane zones.

• 1:37:20Speaker 01

  That's what I mean. There's just things happening everywhere. No, you're not gonna live anywhere without. When I was in Georgia last, there was an earthquake.

• 1:37:28Dax Shepard?

  I know.

• 1:37:29Speaker 01

  You do, I already talked about that?

• 1:37:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you told me, yeah.

• 1:37:32Speaker 01

  Anyway, so, um, yeah.

• 1:37:34Dax Shepard?

  No, I love Los Angeles.

• 1:37:35Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm just, he was, he was happy to have his city defended.

• 1:37:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:40Speaker 01

  And, and I was happy to do it.

• 1:37:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, good for the both of you.

• 1:37:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. Anyhow.

• 1:37:46Dax Shepard?

  And I love it here.

• 1:37:47Speaker 01

  Good, I'm glad to hear that.

• 1:37:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:49Speaker 01

  Now, back to my.

• 1:37:50Dax Shepard?

  Well, my Kenny, it's not a bad place.

• 1:37:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's a great place.

• 1:37:53Dax Shepard?

  So many places.

• 1:37:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, lots of dreams here.

• 1:37:56Dax Shepard?

  And also, I really liked being in nature with less people.

• 1:38:00Speaker 01

  I understand.

• 1:38:00Dax Shepard?

  And less traffic and people more concerned about their families than their careers. That was fun, I enjoyed that.

• 1:38:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I understand. Um, okay, now, my story. I feel like maybe my cleaner, who is my CEO, who I love deeply, lady. She might think I'm like a drug addict.

• 1:38:24Dax Shepard?

  Because of your GLP-1?

• 1:38:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:27Dax Shepard?

  I have the same thought with, uh, I have the same thought.

• 1:38:31Speaker 01

  Cause the needle, I collect the needles in a water bottle.

• 1:38:34Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  And then she has to see this collection of needles.

• 1:38:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. She probably thinks you're diabetic.

• 1:38:40Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:38:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:42Speaker 01

  No, I think she thinks I'm on drugs.

• 1:38:44Dax Shepard?

  The percentage of diabetics is much higher than the percentage of junkies.

• 1:38:46Speaker 01

  But now they have things for diabetes, you can like hook on to yourself and stuff.

• 1:38:51Dax Shepard?

  The pump, yeah.

• 1:38:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, the pump. And she, she is probably in a moral dilemma. Cause she's like, I care about Monica. And she's falling into this like very dark place, this drug-addled place.

• 1:39:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:08Speaker 01

  She's sick, but she pays me well. And if I address this, she might stop.

• 1:39:16Dax Shepard?

  Now you find yourself at the crossroads a lot of representatives do in this town. Which is they have a client who is a cash cow and they're killing themselves.

• 1:39:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:27Dax Shepard?

  Now, well, you don't find yourself, lady finds herself in this situation. Yeah. And she'll probably not bring it up like most representatives.

• 1:39:36Speaker 01

  I don't blame her.

• 1:39:37Dax Shepard?

  I have a funny, I won't name any names, so I don't think I'm throwing anyone in the bus, but my business manager, who is like really my favorite person. Yeah, yeah, I've just been with him for thirty or whatever it's been, twenty-three years or something. I love him. But he was a part of an intervention a long time ago.

• 1:39:54Speaker 01

  He was?

• 1:39:55Dax Shepard?

  Yes, with a client that he shared with a lot of different people and agent.

• 1:39:58Speaker 01

  Not on you?

• 1:39:58Dax Shepard?

  No, no, no, no.

• 1:39:59Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 1:40:00Dax Shepard?

  No, I came to him about to be sober for good. Yeah. Anyways, it was an intervention with like the manager, the lawyer, the agent.

• 1:40:09Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:40:10Dax Shepard?

  And the business manager. And they all said like, you gotta go to treatment or we're all gonna fire you. And then the actor didn't go to treatment and he was the only one.

• 1:40:23Speaker 01

  Oh, he did?

• 1:40:26Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 1:40:28Speaker 01

  I love him so much.

• 1:40:31Dax Shepard?

  This is so funny.

• 1:40:32Speaker 01

  I wish that person had gone back.

• 1:40:35Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:40:36Speaker 01

  After sobriety.

• 1:40:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, if they got sober.

• 1:40:39Speaker 01

  Because the business manager deserves that.

• 1:40:42Dax Shepard?

  Did the right thing, yeah.

• 1:40:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, he did the right thing. He's, I love him.

• 1:40:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, me too.

• 1:40:48Speaker 01

  Okay, so I'm not doing heroin.

• 1:40:51Dax Shepard?

  No, and if she doesn't listen, but no, no.

• 1:40:56Speaker 01

  But I hope it gets back to her.

• 1:40:57Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:40:58Speaker 01

  Um, do you have any stories?

• 1:41:04Dax Shepard?

  Just want to bounce back. I just am happy to be here.

• 1:41:12Dax Shepard?

  Let's use the vax.

• 1:41:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:41:16Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 1:41:23Dax Shepard?

  We get support from ZipRecruiter. Oh, get recruiting. So I went down this rabbit hole the other day on real holiday jobs that exist and I couldn't stop. Somebody out there is hiring a ham glazer, a professional ham glazer. Another place is hiring a lead elf, implying a whole hierarchy of elves I had never even considered. Here's the thing, these jobs need real skills. People like that are hard to find. Whether you're hiring for one of these roles or any other role, the best way to find qualified people who are genuinely excited about your role is on ZipRecruiter. And right now you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/dax. Plus ZipRecruiter has a new feature that shows you the most interested qualified candidates first.

• 1:42:08Dax Shepard?

  So you meet the right people faster. No wonder ZipRecruiter is the number one rated hiring site based on G2. Let ZipRecruiter find the right people for your roles, seasonal or otherwise. Try it for free today at ziprecruiter.com/dax. At ziprecruiter.com/dax, meet your match on ZipRecruiter.

• 1:42:36Speaker 01

  Facts. What a story.

• 1:42:39Dax Shepard?

  What a story.

• 1:42:40Speaker 01

  Sometimes we have people on who just have incredible stories. They've just lived lives that are, that seem extreme, but I think a lot of people can actually relate to them.

• 1:42:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think as we discussed in the episode, everyone's got a lot more going on than you think.

• 1:42:58Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Yeah, it kind of reminded me a tiny bit of Jeanette McCurdy's memoir.

• 1:43:03Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:43:04Speaker 01

  Great book, great interview.

• 1:43:06Dax Shepard?

  I want to kill my mom.

• 1:43:06Speaker 01

  No, I wish my mom was dead.

• 1:43:08Dax Shepard?

  Wish my mom was dead.

• 1:43:09Speaker 01

  Is what it's called. I think they're doing a show.

• 1:43:12Dax Shepard?

  Oh, they are?

• 1:43:12Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. And I think Jennifer Aniston is producing it, if I'm correct.

• 1:43:16Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:43:17Speaker 01

  Yep, really cool. Um.

• 1:43:19Speaker 03

  I'm glad my mom died.

• 1:43:21Dax Shepard?

  I'm glad my mom died.

• 1:43:22Speaker 01

  Anyway, this is sort of similar to that. So she gave us a really cool present. It was a lunchbox, which is this a version of the magazine. They put out a quarterly magazine, but it always like is a little different and cool. And one of them was a lunchbox.

• 1:43:39Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:43:40Speaker 01

  And then it had author cards in it.

• 1:43:42Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:43:43Speaker 01

  Like playing cards, collectible playing cards. I wanted to go through some. Now you pick which one. Do you want?

• 1:43:49Dax Shepard?

  I want one of those chrome ones.

• 1:43:51Speaker 01

  Okay, chrome.

• 1:43:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, chrome.

• 1:43:53Speaker 01

  It says, collect them all, and I'm inclined to.

• 1:43:56Dax Shepard?

  Of course. You love collecting.

• 1:43:59Speaker 01

  I love collecting.

• 1:44:00Dax Shepard?

  You're.

• 1:44:00Speaker 01

  Ding ding ding.

• 1:44:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. I was gonna say in the episode, the only thing that prevents you from being a hoarder is you are good at throwing stuff away or giving stuff.

• 1:44:08Speaker 01

  I am very good at throwing stuff.

• 1:44:09Dax Shepard?

  But man, at the rate you collect things, you could get buried really quick.

• 1:44:12Speaker 01

  I also have great, I have a great design aesthetic, and I think that inhibits my.

• 1:44:19Dax Shepard?

  You have five bureaus? What do you call them?

• 1:44:22Speaker 01

  Armors. That's because I live in a tiny apartment and have, need storage.

• 1:44:26Dax Shepard?

  It's a lot of armors for a one bedroom apartment.

• 1:44:29Speaker 01

  Actually, when I posted, um, the pictures of my apartment, not Architectural Digest.

• 1:44:35Dax Shepard?

  Monica was in Architectural Digest.

• 1:44:36Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 1:44:37Dax Shepard?

  Her apartment's so cute, it made it to Architectural Digest.

• 1:44:40Speaker 01

  That's not what happened, but I, there are some really beautiful pictures of my apartment that are on my Instagram if you want to check it out.

• 1:44:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. If you want to see how Monica lives.

• 1:44:48Speaker 01

  And some people said like, I expected more armors, so.

• 1:44:53Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:44:54Speaker 01

  Looks like it could take even a couple more.

• 1:44:56Dax Shepard?

  I guess so. I wouldn't mind seeing that.

• 1:44:59Speaker 01

  Okay, let's see who we have. Oh, W E B Du Bois.

• 1:45:02Dax Shepard?

  Hmm.

• 1:45:03Speaker 01

  I know him.

• 1:45:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Famous black writer?

• 1:45:06Speaker 01

  Yep, exactly. This is so cute. It has the awards, it has the titles and the years. It has, um, page average.

• 1:45:16Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 1:45:17Speaker 01

  There's a Joan Didion. I like this one. Joan Didion. Page average 236.3. Cool.

• 1:45:30Speaker 01

  Dennis Johnson. I'm gonna read 100.

• 1:45:32Dax Shepard?

  Oh, oh boy.

• 1:45:37Speaker 01

  Kurt Vonnegut.

• 1:45:39Dax Shepard?

  Slaughterhouse.

• 1:45:41Speaker 01

  Who did we have on? Chuck, Chuck Palahniuk.

• 1:45:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:45Speaker 01

  Um, I wonder if he's in here. We should, okay, we should go through these who we've had on.

• 1:45:50Dax Shepard?

  And have a little board where we pin those on.

• 1:45:53Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:45:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's a good idea.

• 1:45:54Speaker 01

  Okay, so far we haven't had any.

• 1:45:56Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 1:45:57Speaker 01

  Okay, great. Anyway, those are cool.

• 1:46:00Dax Shepard?

  Kurt Vonnegut, you know, I get, we both get asked this a bunch and I never have a good answer for it, which is like, who would you want to interview alive or dead?

• 1:46:07Speaker 01

  And Kurt Vonnegut is one?

• 1:46:09Dax Shepard?

  He's definitely one of them. He's one of the funkiest motherfuckers to ever live.

• 1:46:12Speaker 01

  Wow, that's surprising. I've never heard you speak of him.

• 1:46:15Dax Shepard?

  Did you read Slaughterhouse Five?

• 1:46:19Speaker 01

  Uh, I think in school.

• 1:46:21Dax Shepard?

  Or?

• 1:46:21Speaker 01

  He's eighty-four. He's still with us.

• 1:46:23Dax Shepard?

  Oh, he is?

• 1:46:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:24Dax Shepard?

  No, he died in two thousand and seven.

• 1:46:26Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm sorry.

• 1:46:26Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:46:27Speaker 01

  He died.

• 1:46:27Dax Shepard?

  He was eighty-four.

• 1:46:28Speaker 01

  But he was eighty-four.

• 1:46:29Dax Shepard?

  He's been eighty-four for eighteen years.

• 1:46:31Speaker 01

  You want to have him over J.D. Salinger?

• 1:46:34Dax Shepard?

  Probably, I, I mean, I have such reverie for Salinger and Catcher in the Rye. But Vonnegut is like, almost like a Hunter S. Thompson figure. He's like, he has this alter ego, alter ego Kilgore Trout, who's in all these books and there's all these weird, it's very trippy.

• 1:46:54Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:46:54Dax Shepard?

  Uh, he, he's just so creative. He's like, like he is on acid as his homeostasis is like on acid trip.

• 1:47:03Speaker 01

  But what would you ask him?

• 1:47:04Dax Shepard?

  I just think he'd be so colorful as a character.

• 1:47:07Speaker 01

  I see.

• 1:47:07Dax Shepard?

  And interesting and playful.

• 1:47:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:10Dax Shepard?

  He's a rascal.

• 1:47:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:47:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:12Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:47:13Dax Shepard?

  He'd be in that list.

• 1:47:14Speaker 01

  Once we do the Ghost Podcast, we can try to get him.

• 1:47:17Dax Shepard?

  Oh, we have a medium come in and try to communicate with?

• 1:47:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay, who was the inventor of liquid soap?

• 1:47:24Dax Shepard?

  Hmm.

• 1:47:24Speaker 01

  William Shepherd.

• 1:47:28Dax Shepard?

  My Uncle William?

• 1:47:29Speaker 01

  No, because it's spelled S-H-E-P-P-H-A-R-D.

• 1:47:34Dax Shepard?

  That's before we dropped the P and the H, because so many people would come over and ask us for liquid soap. They thought we had an unlimited supply being related to Matthew.

• 1:47:44Speaker 01

  William.

• 1:47:45Dax Shepard?

  William, his full name's William Matthew Shepherd. It's actually Matthew William Shepherd, but he went by William.

• 1:47:51Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:47:52Dax Shepard?

  Anyways.

• 1:47:52Speaker 01

  I'm not so sure.

• 1:47:53Dax Shepard?

  You don't need to look further into that.

• 1:47:57Dax Shepard?

  Oh, that's a ding ding ding. So we're watching Friday Night Lights last night. We're really getting close to the end. We're in season five. I'm a little panicked.

• 1:48:05Speaker 01

  I am.

• 1:48:06Dax Shepard?

  And Coach Taylor, Eric Taylor is the character's name, played by Kyle Chandler.

• 1:48:10Speaker 01

  Kyle Chandler.

• 1:48:11Dax Shepard?

  Kyle Chandler. And boy, Lincoln was quick on the draw, man. He was wearing a hat in the scene. He took his hat off and then they're talking. Then he goes and puts his baseball hat back on. She's like, go back. His real initials are in the, in the baseball cap.

• 1:48:27Speaker 01

  Oh, cool.

• 1:48:27Dax Shepard?

  So we went frame by frame. And sure enough, you look inside here and it's KMC. That's what made me think it was Michaels. We're assuming his middle name's Michael.

• 1:48:35Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:48:36Dax Shepard?

  It was a good get.

• 1:48:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's great. Okay. That was in 1865.

• 1:48:42Dax Shepard?

  What was? Liquid soap, 1865. Okay.

• 1:48:47Speaker 01

  It says, "Wallace's invention was a significant step. It wasn't until later that liquid soap became a widely used product for domestic purposes."

• 1:48:54Dax Shepard?

  Until Mr. Yuli invented a valve that could dispense the liquid soap.

• 1:48:59Speaker 01

  It helped.

• 1:49:01Dax Shepard?

  I'm split on liquid soap. Like when I'm in a bathroom at a hotel, I want the bar of soap. I want to wash my hands with a bar of soap. And when I get in the thing, I don't like shower gel.

• 1:49:11Speaker 01

  I don't like shower gel.

• 1:49:12Dax Shepard?

  I feel like it's so wasteful. Like I put like three ounces to clean my asshole. Because I'm thinking about how much I, I always put so much on my hand before I clean my asshole. So I'm like, yeah, we need a lot. And then afterwards, I'm like, I just used like a tenth of a bottle.

• 1:49:25Speaker 01

  For shower gel or for bar?

• 1:49:27Dax Shepard?

  No. The bar, you can't take a tenth of it off. You gotta rub your.

• 1:49:31Speaker 01

  Do you rub, do you put the bar on?

• 1:49:33Dax Shepard?

  We've already talked about this.

• 1:49:34Speaker 01

  Whatever.

• 1:49:36Dax Shepard?

  You want to keep shaming me for this?

• 1:49:37Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:49:38Dax Shepard?

  Okay. You think it's disgusting?

• 1:49:40Speaker 01

  Listen to me.

• 1:49:41Dax Shepard?

  Do you use a washcloth?

• 1:49:43Speaker 01

  Listen to me. Do you put it directly on the butt?

• 1:49:48Dax Shepard?

  Here's what I do. And this is true. I take a bunch of sudsy lather.

• 1:49:54Speaker 01

  On your hands.

• 1:49:55Dax Shepard?

  On my hands. I take the bar soap and I get so much soap on it. I put it back on the holder.

• 1:49:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:50:00Dax Shepard?

  Then I wash my butthole.

• 1:50:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:02Dax Shepard?

  Then I rinse it.

• 1:50:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:50:04Dax Shepard?

  Then I take the bar. Now I've gotten like.

• 1:50:06Speaker 01

  I do that.

• 1:50:07Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you do? Okay, great.

• 1:50:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do that.

• 1:50:09Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great. I thought you were very judgmental that I put the bar on my hands.

• 1:50:13Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 1:50:14Dax Shepard?

  Okay, okay. But yes, there is, there is one round first with just the hands.

• 1:50:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:20Dax Shepard?

  Uh, in the suds and then the bar goes in.

• 1:50:22Speaker 01

  The liquid shower gel, I agree, is not for me. If I forget my bar soap, if I'm like at a hotel or something, I'm pissed because they normally have a shower gel.

• 1:50:33Dax Shepard?

  Yep.

• 1:50:33Speaker 01

  Option and I don't, it's like, it's also slimy, like it's not coming off.

• 1:50:38Dax Shepard?

  It doesn't suds as much as a bar.

• 1:50:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:42Speaker 01

  But for hand washing.

• 1:50:44Dax Shepard?

  Sponsor that's a liquid, then I'll say it's great.

• 1:50:46Speaker 01

  No, for hand washing, I'm liquid.

• 1:50:50Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:50:50Speaker 01

  Even though actually currently at my house, it's a bar, but it's because the bar is really cute. It's in a circle shape.

• 1:50:56Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so that's why you're using it because it's a cute shape.

• 1:51:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. I like a thing that I'm rubbing, you know, a, a, a, a, a solid chunk.

• 1:51:08Speaker 01

  But what you don't like is something that you guys, that you guys have in your bath, in your downstairs bathroom, but I also have it too.

• 1:51:16Dax Shepard?

  Hate it.

• 1:51:17Speaker 01

  You shouldn't say you hate it because what if they sponsor and we both have it and like, I think it's cool.

• 1:51:21Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:51:22Speaker 01

  I almost give it as a white elephant. It's a soap that's like a bar soap, but it has these like mountains.

• 1:51:30Dax Shepard?

  It looks like a candle that has been carved out on top to have a bunch of dish shapes in it.

• 1:51:36Speaker 01

  Right, and no wicks, obviously.

• 1:51:38Dax Shepard?

  No wick, right, but it's like, it, it, it looks, it's a. Big base of soap with these weird shapes cut into the top.

• 1:51:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:46Dax Shepard?

  And you're supposed to just rub your hands on it.

• 1:51:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:49Dax Shepard?

  And wash your hands.

• 1:51:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:50Dax Shepard?

  And I hate it because A, you're dripping the stuff over as you do it. Then it gets wet. If you go in there and someone just did it, it feels gross to touch that wet thing. It's a pass. If you live by yourself, maybe it's fine.

• 1:52:01Speaker 01

  Right. I agree that, okay, so I, I like it. I think it's cool and, and cool looking. But I do have skepticism that it's clean.

• 1:52:13Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:52:13Speaker 01

  Like, I don't, I, I worry, even though soap is self-cleaning.

• 1:52:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, also, you just, you get this big trail between the sink and that thing.

• 1:52:22Speaker 01

  I've never noticed that.

• 1:52:23Dax Shepard?

  Well, if you, like, when we have company over and I go in there, I'm like, look at this fucking, there's like soap drizzles all over. This thing sucks, and that's what I say.

• 1:52:30Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:52:31Dax Shepard?

  Then I go, I hate it.

• 1:52:32Speaker 01

  But what's the difference between the bar being wet, though? The, the, the same, if it's a bar soap, if it's wet because somebody just used it, it's wet because somebody just used it.

• 1:52:43Dax Shepard?

  But here's what I tell myself, like, when I use the soap, I also then rinse the bar of soap off so it doesn't have a bunch of suds all over it when I put it there.

• 1:52:50Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't.

• 1:52:51Dax Shepard?

  But there's no way to, you're not gonna grab that whole base and rinse off everyone's gunk that was just touching it. Whereas the bar of soap, I do think people naturally just rinse it off when they're done to put it back.

• 1:53:02Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:53:03Dax Shepard?

  I, I do.

• 1:53:04Speaker 01

  No, okay, so I'm pulling it.

• 1:53:05Dax Shepard?

  And you put a big sudsy bar on the thing, you know that'll make a mess.

• 1:53:08Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I put it back and then I rinse my hands. You rinse your hands with the soap?

• 1:53:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, like, before I put it back. I would never put a big bubbly bar of soap down on the rack.

• 1:53:19Speaker 01

  Oh, it dries just fine.

• 1:53:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I can see that the bubbles popped and, yeah, I want it smooth.

• 1:53:25Speaker 01

  Okay, okay, how much is 200, so $265,000 in 1986 is what today?

• 1:53:34Dax Shepard?

  I said 2 million.

• 1:53:35Speaker 01

  It's $776,487. It's less than I thought.

• 1:53:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:53:42Speaker 01

  So, there's that. Does hoarding get worse over time?

• 1:53:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:48Dax Shepard?

  It does.

• 1:53:49Speaker 01

  It does. Hoarding disorder is an ongoing difficulty throwing away or parting with possessions because you believe that you need to save them. Obviously, we already know that. You may experience distress at the thought of getting rid of the items. You gradually keep or gather a huge number of items regardless of their actual value. Uh, ranges from mild to severe. Okay, first symptoms of hoarding disorder often appear during the teenage to early adult years. You may get and save too many items. Gradually build up clutter in living spaces and have difficulty getting rid of things. As you grow older, you may continually, you may continue getting and holding on to things that you may never use and don't have space for. By middle age, the clutter can become overwhelming as symptoms become more severe and increasingly difficult to treat.

• 1:54:31Dax Shepard?

  I just wonder, for someone who suffers from this, when they leave their completely packed house and there's like no room for, do you have bags all over the floor?

• 1:54:41Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:54:41Dax Shepard?

  Do you say, as you're walking out the door, where am I gonna put this stuff? Or you don't? You've blocked that completely out.

• 1:54:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you-

• 1:54:48Dax Shepard?

  You compartmentalize. Do you, I'm just, I need to go get the thing. That's all I'm thinking about. I guess that's me and drugs, like.

• 1:54:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:54:55Dax Shepard?

  I just gotta go get those drugs. And then everything else will sort itself out.

• 1:54:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:59Dax Shepard?

  Hmm.

• 1:55:00Speaker 01

  So this is, you feel emotionally connected to items that remind you of happier times or represent beloved people or pets.

• 1:55:06Dax Shepard?

  That's sad.

• 1:55:07Speaker 01

  I know. You feel safe and comforted when surrounded by things. You don't wanna waste anything. That's a way I'm not a hoarder. I'm fine with waste. You believe these items are unique or that you'll need them at some point in the future.

• 1:55:20Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

• 1:55:22Speaker 01

  It's a, it's a hard disease.

• 1:55:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it is.

• 1:55:25Speaker 01

  That's, I, I have a lot of sympathy.

• 1:55:27Dax Shepard?

  It's funny too, how all these diseases do bring everyone to the same place, interestingly. It's just like different mechanisms to get to total isolation. Like, every addict will tell you- You start by relapsing at a bar with friends. And maybe you get coke, but ultimately you'll be in your closet smoking crack on day three, all by yourself. And then you will not want to see anyone and that's all you'll want to do. And this thing like, even if you started it socially, you could never host anyone. You're embarrassed by where you live. It's easier to not have friends.

• 1:55:59Speaker 01

  I know, it's sad.

• 1:56:00Dax Shepard?

  It's heartbreaking.

• 1:56:01Speaker 01

  Okay, I looked at percentage of people who have it in America. Two percent to six percent of Americans are estimated to have hoarding disorder, according to the Mayo Clinic. Trusted brand.

• 1:56:11Dax Shepard?

  Mayo. Do you think they were called Mayo Clinic before the product mayonnaise existed?

• 1:56:16Speaker 01

  Uh, let's see when mayonnaise.

• 1:56:18Dax Shepard?

  Was invented.

• 1:56:19Speaker 01

  Okay, mayonnaise is thought to have been invented in seventeen fifty six.

• 1:56:23Dax Shepard?

  That's gonna be before the Mayo Clinic.

• 1:56:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, Mayo Clinic, um, eighteen eighty nine, still early.

• 1:56:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:31Speaker 01

  Okay, but we got a hundred years difference. Although, I want to go back to mayo. Cause maybe like.

• 1:56:39Dax Shepard?

  Mayonnaise, that's a weird name. That's gotta be French?

• 1:56:42Speaker 01

  With the most common origin story linking it to a French victory celebration in Menorca, Spain. During the Seven Years' War, French forces captured Port Mahon. Port Mahon. And lacking cream for a celebratory sauce, a chef reportedly substituted oil and eggs, creating. Mahonaise.

• 1:57:00Dax Shepard?

  Well, nice.

• 1:57:01Speaker 01

  Mahonaise.

• 1:57:02Dax Shepard?

  Mayonnaise.

• 1:57:03Speaker 01

  So wow, okay, great.

• 1:57:05Dax Shepard?

  Great, unexpected fact.

• 1:57:06Speaker 01

  Great, unexpected fact. Um, and that concludes the facts.

• 1:57:11Dax Shepard?

  Okay, that's a lot of people. Two to six percent.

• 1:57:14Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:57:15Dax Shepard?

  So on the low end, we're saying thirty divided by five, six million people. And on the high end, eighteen million people.

• 1:57:26Speaker 01

  That's a lot.

• 1:57:28Dax Shepard?

  That's a lot of junk.

• 1:57:29Speaker 01

  The scale is wide of, of. Um, intensity of disease.

• 1:57:35Dax Shepard?

  I know, it's hard to like, where you draw the line.

• 1:57:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean like.

• 1:57:39Dax Shepard?

  Cause I'm in people's apartments, I'm like, there is too much stuff in here.

• 1:57:42Speaker 01

  Right, but that. Like, stuff they don't need?

• 1:57:47Dax Shepard?

  If your items can't fit in cabinets or cupboards and they have to be out in the living space, that's too much stuff. Just technically, that's too much stuff for your place.

• 1:57:56Speaker 01

  For your place, but not for your living. Like, you could have a teeny tiny place in New York and it just won't fit anything, but you still need stuff.

• 1:58:03Dax Shepard?

  But like, Bree and I had a rule, right? We lived together for, I don't know, nine years in that one bedroom apartment. And we had a rule, which is like, if you're gonna go buy a garment, any kind of clothing item, and you're gonna put it in that closet, you have to pull something out.

• 1:58:19Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:58:20Dax Shepard?

  Like, it's a one in, one out.

• 1:58:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's-

• 1:58:22Dax Shepard?

  Cause there's no- what, are we gonna put fucking clothes on the floor?

• 1:58:24Speaker 01

  Armoire.

• 1:58:25Dax Shepard?

  There was no room in our spot for an armoire.

• 1:58:28Speaker 01

  Okay, and then you put them on the floor?

• 1:58:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and that's when you're technically, you have more stuff than you can handle.

• 1:58:33Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:58:34Dax Shepard?

  You don't like that.

• 1:58:36Speaker 01

  I don't know if I agree. I gotta munch on that.

• 1:58:38Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:58:41Dax Shepard?

  But like, you don't buy too much food to fit in your fridge because it has to go in your fridge.

• 1:58:46Speaker 01

  Or pantry.

• 1:58:47Dax Shepard?

  Well, no, if it's the fridge items that need refrigeration.

• 1:58:49Speaker 01

  No, that's true.

• 1:58:50Dax Shepard?

  You can't just buy it and leave it on your counter. You're like, it's gotta go in the fridge. And you have to have that same policy about everything. Like, the clothes gotta go in where they hold the clothes. And the toiletries gotta go where that's-

• 1:59:01Speaker 01

  Well, that's not- so, I buy, ooh, I buy bottled water. I'm not really supposed to, but I do.

• 1:59:05Dax Shepard?

  You buy what?

• 1:59:05Speaker 01

  Bottled water.

• 1:59:06Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:59:07Speaker 01

  I feel badly about that, but I do do it. And-

• 1:59:10Dax Shepard?

  You're a bad person.

• 1:59:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I will buy a bunch. I get big ones. Exhibit A.

• 1:59:16Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:59:17Speaker 01

  Can you show it to the camera?

• 1:59:18Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I think that everyone can see this. It's not an extreme close-up of me, but-

• 1:59:22Speaker 01

  If you'd show it. Um, and they're big, and so I get like, five-

• 1:59:29Dax Shepard?

  Cases.

• 1:59:30Speaker 01

  Cases. And that's not fitting anywhere, so I have to put it in the laundry room.

• 1:59:35Dax Shepard?

  But your laundry room is fine. That's a, that's your shed. You have a shed-

• 1:59:40Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:59:41Dax Shepard?

  Off your kitchen, where your hot water heater is. It's not like anyone's gonna be hanging out next to your hot water heater.

• 1:59:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:59:46Dax Shepard?

  That's fine.

• 1:59:47Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:59:48Dax Shepard?

  Living space, you can't sta- if you need to stack up five cases of water in your living room, I'm sorry, but you're gonna have to get one case at a time.

• 1:59:55Speaker 01

  No, that's not efficient for people.

• 1:59:58Dax Shepard?

  You can't live with shit stacked up.

• 1:59:59Speaker 01

  Why? If it's water?

• 2:00:02Dax Shepard?

  We, this is an episode about hoarding. You don't understand why?

• 2:00:05Speaker 01

  But hoard, no, that's, that's, no. So that, that, there is a difference here. Hoarding is items that aren't used, aren't gonna be used. It's like, in the future, I may need this, I'm gonna have it, or I feel safe if it's here. Having to go every two days to get water is not efficient for anyone's life.

• 2:00:25Dax Shepard?

  First of all, you're forgetting I know you. You barely drink water. You are not drinking a case of water every two days. Okay, let's start there. Secondly...

• 2:00:34Speaker 01

  It's not true.

• 2:00:35Dax Shepard?

  Surplus is part of hoarding. That's what's, her, her bathroom, her shower was full of 50 shampoo bottles.

• 2:00:42Speaker 01

  I know.

• 2:00:42Dax Shepard?

  So it is part of it. The stockpiling is, is an aspect.

• 2:00:45Speaker 01

  Fifty is different than like, also, that's different. Shampoo bottles, you do take a while to get through, so yes, you can do one at a time or two. Speed, also, you're someone who has a ton of surplus.

• 2:00:59Dax Shepard?

  Yes, but I stockpile within the confines of my storage space. I don't exceed that. That has to be a rule we agree on.

• 2:01:06Speaker 01

  Well, that feels interesting and tricky, though, cuz it's like, your space is big, so you're allowed to have surplus, but if your space is small, you don't?

• 2:01:13Dax Shepard?

  Yes, I lived in a small space and I couldn't have 15 extra toothpaste. But now I can. The rule is you have to live within the limits of your environment.

• 2:01:24Speaker 01

  Um, hmm.

• 2:01:26Dax Shepard?

  It's good policy, Monica. I don't know why you're pushing against it.

• 2:01:29Speaker 01

  I, I am pushing against it cuz I don't, I don't know that I think it's fair that, like, you, the reason you have a surplus is cuz it makes you feel safe. It makes you feel safe to have that. That's literally the exact same thing as a hoarder. They just don't have a big house.

• 2:01:46Dax Shepard?

  No, no, here's the line, it's so clear. I would have also felt safe to have more of those products when I lived in a one-bedroom apartment, but I could not, because I live by the premise, I can't have shit stacked up in my living space. So I played by the exact rule I'm still playing by.

• 2:02:02Speaker 01

  No, I know, but I'm saying by definition, hoarding, what we just read, is it makes people feel safe to have those items. So that's like, part of... The psychology behind hoarding.

• 2:02:15Dax Shepard?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:02:16Speaker 01

  So if that person has just a bu- has toothpaste on the ground because they feel safe, I can't be like, well, that's bad, but yours isn't bad because you have the big house. Do you see the, the confliction?

• 2:02:29Dax Shepard?

  If I had only lived in a big house and I had this premise, yes, I would be hypocritical. But I lived for a decade in a one bedroom apartment and I live by the policy I'm suggesting.

• 2:02:39Speaker 01

  But I guess my point is-

• 2:02:40Dax Shepard?

  So I've already proven that I walked the walk I'm suggesting.

• 2:02:43Speaker 01

  You, but why, why can't now, like, you're like, I feel safe having these, um, toothpaste and you see this other guy who has toothpaste on his floor, just like four.

• 2:02:53Dax Shepard?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:02:54Speaker 01

  And, and why can't you just be like, yeah, he feels safer. That's fine.

• 2:02:58Dax Shepard?

  Because he has products invading his living space.

• 2:03:01Speaker 01

  Well, to him, it's not.

• 2:03:03Dax Shepard?

  That's where it becomes, well, to all hoarders, it's-

• 2:03:05Speaker 01

  He's having you over, though. So he's not embarrassed.

• 2:03:09Dax Shepard?

  He should be. If he's got tooth, toothpaste laying all over his living room floor, he should be. I'm sorry, that should be something that you-

• 2:03:16Speaker 01

  Oh my god, the judgment. Wow.

• 2:03:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Yeah, you gotta, sorry, you can't spend more than you make. There's some rules. You can't spend more than you make.

• 2:03:27Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 2:03:27Dax Shepard?

  You can't buy more shit than your place can hold.

• 2:03:30Speaker 01

  That's not, no.

• 2:03:31Dax Shepard?

  You ca- yes.

• 2:03:32Speaker 01

  Then your place can hold is different than in this corner, I have stuff stacked. To you, that's bad, but to somebody else, that's not bad. That's just the way they're doing their life. Like, they have stuff stacked in this corner.

• 2:03:44Dax Shepard?

  It's happening in my bedroom and I hate it, but I hate it. You understand? There's like stuff.

• 2:03:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're-

• 2:03:53Dax Shepard?

  And I don't like it.

• 2:03:56Speaker 01

  That's fine. You don't have, also, you don't have to like it, but I think, I think it's, it would be, I'd be surpr- I'm surprised to hear that you're so judgmental of people who like have a stacked area of extra stuff, because they don't have a closet for it, but they like having extra stuff. I understand with the, what, um, Amanda's mom having chickens out rotting and stuff.

• 2:04:23Dax Shepard?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:04:23Speaker 01

  Obviously, that's not good, but-

• 2:04:26Dax Shepard?

  Listen, you can have a principle and not be judgmental of people who don't apply to the principle.

• 2:04:31Speaker 01

  Well, you are.

• 2:04:32Dax Shepard?

  This is Marcus Aurelius. This is be hard on yourself in forgiving of others. And I subscribe to that. So for me, I'm just saying, as an ethic, I can't have more stuff than I can put away. I can't spend more money than I make.

• 2:04:46Speaker 01

  I hear about you, but you said they should be embarrassed.

• 2:04:49Dax Shepard?

  OK, what I should say is I'd be embarrassed.

• 2:04:52Speaker 01

  OK, great.

• 2:04:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:53Speaker 01

  That's fine.

• 2:04:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:54Speaker 01

  And, and, yeah.

• 2:04:55Dax Shepard?

  I'd be very embarrassed if I had toothpaste and sundries stacked up all over my living room.

• 2:05:00Speaker 01

  What about just a corner?

• 2:05:02Dax Shepard?

  But if someone else says, I don't actually care because I don't live there.

• 2:05:04Speaker 01

  That's my, that's exactly my point.

• 2:05:07Dax Shepard?

  OK.

• 2:05:07Speaker 01

  We are not living there, so.

• 2:05:09Dax Shepard?

  And I might not want to be in there. Because it's like, where on this spectrum? So, yeah, you would admit you don't want to sit in a, in a living room where you have to clear the couch off to sit down.

• 2:05:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:18Dax Shepard?

  And there's chicken under the thing.

• 2:05:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:20Dax Shepard?

  So, great.

• 2:05:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:21Dax Shepard?

  And we can work backwards from there. And there's probably a lot of, I don't want to be in a place with stacks of newspapers everywhere. It feels dirty and gross. I personally don't want to be in there.

• 2:05:31Speaker 01

  OK.

• 2:05:32Dax Shepard?

  Someone loves living with all those newspapers and kitty litter all over. Who cares? That's for them.

• 2:05:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's for them, yeah.

• 2:05:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but I don't enjoy that.

• 2:05:40Speaker 01

  I understand.

• 2:05:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:42Dax Shepard?

  All right.

• 2:05:42Speaker 01

  Right. Well, that's it.

• 2:05:44Dax Shepard?

  I love you.

• 2:05:45Speaker 01

  Love you.