Jared Diamond Returns (on the science of leadership)

Jared Diamond (Profits, Prophets, Coaches, and Kings, The World Until Yesterday, and Guns, Germs, and Steel) is a Pulitzer Prize-winning scientist, historian, and UCLA professor. Jared joins Armchair Expert to discuss growing up in the shadow of World War II, his family’s connection to the Holocaust, and his path from physiology to geography. Jared and Dax talk about testing history through natural experiments, measuring the influence of CEOs and coaches, and the six factors that determine a leader’s impact. Jared explains the “Hamlet test” for irreplaceable leaders, why timing can matter more than talent, and how democracies overestimate a president’s control over the economy. Start your 2 month free trial today: https://youtube.com/premium . Terms Apply. Cancel Anytime. Check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds: https://www.allstate.com/ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dax Shepard?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, experts on expert. I'm Dax Shepard and I'm joined by Lily Padman.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 0:06Dax Shepard?

  Today we have, which is a great honor, for the second time, but this time in the flesh, Jared Diamond. Jared Diamond is a scientist, historian, a professor, and a Pulitzer Prize winning author. I mean, this guy started in the physiology department, then he became the head of the geography department. Talk about a polymath. He's an ornithologist.

• 0:27Speaker 01

  He's, I mean, he's one of the smartest people we've talked to.

• 0:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, he really is. His most famous book, of course, legendary, Guns, Germs, and Steel. If you have not read that book, it is phenomenal. Everyone should read that book. Collapse, The Third Chimpanzee, The World Until Yesterday, Upheaval, and his new book out now called Profits, Profits, Coaches, and Kings. When Do Leaders Matter?

• 0:51Speaker 01

  This was so interesting.

• 0:52Dax Shepard?

  It's so fascinating. Spoiler, there's not one thing that we can predict an effective leader on. There's many, many things that contribute to whether or not they are. Please enjoy Jared Diamond. We get support from Quince.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  I have to say, I am so ready for fall. I want sweaters. I've been craving a true crisp morning where I actually need a jacket. I can't wait.

• 1:18Dax Shepard?

  I'm fully there. The second it dips below 70, I'm like, this is my season. Give me the layers, give me the boots, give me a reason to wear something other than a t-shirt. And honestly, that's why I love Quince, because fall is when your wardrobe actually has to show up. And everything at Quince is 50 to 80% less than similar brands. We're talking 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters, starting at $60.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  $60. $60 for cashmere that you'd expect from a luxury brand without the luxury price tag. It's amazing. Gets me every time. It really shouldn't be real, but it is, because they go straight to the factories, they skip the middlemen, and they just hand you the savings. The stuff isn't trendy. It's the kind of pieces you grab over and over because they work every time.

• 1:58Dax Shepard?

  The 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters for me are it. When I look at Steve McQueen, this man owned a couple of sweaters he wore all the time, and he looks iconic.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  It's a uniform.

• 2:08Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  And Quince isn't just about the clothes. They have hotel quality bedding, cookware, bath essentials, thoughtfully designed furniture. You can really go there and outfit your entire apartment or house. So if you're in need of any kind of fall refresh at home, too, same quality, same attention to detail for every corner of your life.

• 2:26Dax Shepard?

  Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. This episode is presented by YouTube Premium. YouTube was already great, but Premium supercharges it. If you like YouTube, you'll love Premium. Try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com/premium. Trial eligibility varies. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. Now let's get into today's episode.

• 3:24Dax Shepard?

  Oh my goodness, you're already here.

• 3:26Speaker 02

  Yes, I am.

• 3:27Dax Shepard?

  How are you, sir?

• 3:28Speaker 02

  I'm good. How are you?

• 3:29Dax Shepard?

  Good. Wonderful to see in real life.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  Hi, how are you?

• 3:32Dax Shepard?

  Last time we were Zoom, right?

• 3:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, we were.

• 3:35Dax Shepard?

  I think we were Zoom.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  I think.

• 3:37Dax Shepard?

  If you recall.

• 3:38Speaker 02

  Yes, I do. My sons reminded me.

• 3:43Dax Shepard?

  That's their role in your life? I have two daughters that I'm hoping will take over much of my cognition as I get older.

• 3:51Speaker 02

  How old are your daughters?

• 3:52Dax Shepard?

  11 and 13.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  You are in the eye of the storm.

• 3:56Dax Shepard?

  Thank you for saying that. I feel a little alone in the eye of the storm currently.

• 4:02Speaker 02

  We got through it okay. We have twins. They're 39 years old.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 4:07Speaker 02

  Nothing terrible went wrong. In their teens, they wanted more to spend time with their friends and not just alone with their boring parents.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:16Speaker 02

  Eventually, when they were permitted to bring along their friends, they tolerated their boring parents.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:22Dax Shepard?

  Jared, I'm so happy to have you in person. As an anthro major at your school, of course, Guns, Germs, and Steel. It's in the selfish gene bible-like canon of things we worship. And so it was a great honor to interview you the first time, but we were over Zoom, and now we get to sit together.

• 4:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:40Dax Shepard?

  As if I got to take one of your classes in real life.

• 4:43Speaker 02

  Uh-huh.

• 4:44Dax Shepard?

  So your first huge book was, as I just said, Guns, Germs, and Steel. It really addressed this question of why were Europeans so successful at taking over the rest of the planet? Were they the product of great special men, or were they simply the recipients of great geography, which is what the conclusion of the book was, right?

• 5:05Speaker 02

  Right. In effect, why are you and I now talking English on the land of Native Americans instead of in London, they're talking Nawadal, the language of the Aztec empire? Why do it turn out that way?

• 5:18Dax Shepard?

  Right. But this book now is interestingly kind of coming at a similar question, which is leaders. What makes a great leader? How relevant are leaders? Are they, as Tolstoy said, are they the passengers of history? Or are they, like Carlisle said, history has been shaped by great men? Which is true? And if so, when and why is it true and when and why is it not true? Is that a succinct premise of the book?

• 5:48Speaker 02

  Exactly. The book is not about which is true. It's instead a typical Jared Diamond response. It depends. And so I look at factors. There are about six factors that enable one to explain why leaders, some do or don't make a difference.

• 6:04Dax Shepard?

  We'll get to go through a lot of specific leaders in four different domains: politics, history, sports, religion, and business. These are the four silos we're going to evaluate leadership, right? But I think first we should know, what are the factors that we think contribute to a great leader?

• 6:23Speaker 02

  First of all, timing, being at the right time and place. Some leaders can control their time and place. Bill Gates, when he saw the cover issue of Popular Electronics in, what was it, January 1976? He had been talking with Paul Allen about developing a personal computer, but kept telling Paul, the time isn't right. And when he saw that cover, he said, now is the right time. We got to act fast. So some leaders choose their time and place. Some leaders can't choose their time and place, but they recognize they're at the right time and place. So I see the finest hour of Winston Churchill. Winston Churchill, in the concluding paragraph of Gathering Storm, the first of those six

• 7:04Speaker 02

  volumes, Churchill said, when he had been appointed prime minister, I knew that this was the moment towards which my life had been pointing. He didn't make that. It was the week of Dunkirk. Churchill did not cause Germany to invade France, but Germany's invasion of France did result in Chamberlain's resigning and Churchill becoming prime minister. So he knew it was the right time, but he didn't make it. And then finally, Mark Zuckerberg was at the right time and place, but he didn't know it. He was born in 1984 for reasons beyond his control. The result was that he was a sophomore at Harvard in 2004, which because of changes in the internet, there had been social media before, and that was the perfect time to found big social media.

• 7:49Dax Shepard?

  And he was at the perfect location. Harvard had this cachet. People wanted the Harvard edu. You know, there's a lot of layers on it.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  You're exactly right. So time and place is one factor. Another factor is what in the book I call discretion, which does not mean behaving discreetly, but means having the power to make decisions. For example, mayors have much less power to make decisions than do governors. Governors have less power than do presidents. Democratic presidents have less power than do dictators. Democratic presidents in wartime have more power than in peacetime. Or in the business world, it's interesting, CEOs of public utilities don't have much power because public utilities are tightly regulated. The CEOs with the

• 8:34Speaker 02

  greatest power are CEOs of perfume companies and teenage t-shirt companies. A friend of mine is the CEO of a teenage t-shirt company. He's a billionaire, because when he recognizes what will be the trend two weeks from now, he has the complete power to churn out those t-shirts. So he's a billionaire.

• 8:53Dax Shepard?

  You point out that if you're the CEO of some power or water system, the innovations happen. You're pretty much overseeing a system that has probably made most of the changes it's ever going to make. There's not going to be a lot of crucial pivots that have to be made. So yeah, the more cutting edge the technology, the more flexible the company has to be, then those CEOs are much more relevant.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  Right. Even in sports, on the average, a coach of a college team has more discretion than the coach of a professional team, because with a professional team, the players are there for longer, they have more power. And the professional team has an owner and a general manager. So on the average, college coaches have more discretion. That's a third factor.

• 9:39Dax Shepard?

  So timing and place, discretion. How much power do you actually have?

• 9:43Speaker 02

  A fourth consideration is whether or not you are the founder. The founder of a country like George Washington or Li Quan Yu. The founder of a country sets the institutions for good or bad that are likely to continue for quite a while. So founders. Similarly, founders in the business world have more discretion. That's a fourth factor. Fifth factor is that a leader who sees that the public should be doing something that the public doesn't want to do, but convinces, gets the public to do it. Franklin Roosevelt recognized that the United States had to prepare for war, but the American public did not want to prepare for war. But because he saw it, and he gradually nudged the government in that direction,

• 10:28Speaker 02

  he had more influence than a leader who was doing what the public wanted.

• 10:33Dax Shepard?

  The thing I find most impressive in the list is the leader who can convince people to do things they don't want to do. That, to me, seems like a very estimable triumph. If you can convince people to do things they don't want.

• 10:46Speaker 03

  Well, estimable if it's a good thing that they're trying to get them to do.

• 10:48Dax Shepard?

  True, true, true. In the FDR sense.

• 10:51Speaker 02

  And you know, another example, Charles de Gaulle. De Gaulle, the last thing the French wanted to do in 1958 was to pull out of Algeria. But de Gaulle recognized that they had to pull out of Algeria, and he got to do it in a tricky way. He began by saying, "We will not pull out of Algeria until after there have been no terrorist acts for nine months." And then he said, "We're not going to get out of Algeria until there have been no terrorist acts for five months." So eventually, he said, "And now we're getting out of Algeria." So he got the French to do what they didn't want to do. Then finally, the last thing on my list of six is that a leader who does not have outstanding colleagues. Clement Attlee produced the biggest change in social policies in Britain in the 20th

• 11:35Speaker 02

  century, but he's not nearly as famous as Winston Churchill. Because Clement Attlee had about five cabinet members, all of whom were skilled and talented, and they shared the glory. If Attlee hadn't done it, one of those five would have done it. So that's the sixth reason. If you have the misfortune, each of you to have an outstanding colleague.

• 11:57Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes, yes. We're going to have to share that glory, which we do. But we left out the most important one that comes up most often in the book, I think, which is this thing you label the Hamlet test. So explain the Hamlet test.

• 12:12Speaker 02

  The Hamlet test is a test that leaders rarely pass. People think, "He or she, she or he, is the only person who could do it." Well, in a country of 340 million people, the United States, it's hard to make an argument that Jeff Bezos was the only one of 340 million Americans who could pound Amazon. But in the case of Botswana, a tiny colony of 1 million, where at the time of independence, there were only 22 college graduates.

• 12:43Dax Shepard?

  They had seven miles of paved road in the entire country.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  That's right. And on top of that, of those 22 college graduates, Siretzi Kama was the chief of the most powerful tribe. And so he was the only chief who could get away with abolishing the power of the chiefs. And on top of that, it was on his tribe's land that were found the diamonds that made the wealth of Botswana. So he was the only chief who could get away with giving away the tribe's diamonds and saying that they were national treasures.

• 13:12Dax Shepard?

  He was both the president and the chief of this very important tribe. So, yes, he had to have so many things.

• 13:19Speaker 03

  That's similar to the competition one, I feel, or sharing the glory. It's like, if it's only you.

• 13:24Dax Shepard?

  And you're the only person. So the reason you call it the Hamlet test, and I don't know that people would necessarily know this history, but explain why Hamlet is relevant.

• 13:33Speaker 02

  Sure, people will necessarily not know the history. Hamlet is often regarded as the greatest play in the English literature. So Shakespeare wrote Hamlet. Was Shakespeare the only person who could write Hamlet? Well, in this case, I call it the Hamlet test because this is one of those rare cases where there aren't another 340 million people to consider to write Hamlet. First of all, you had to have a track record of writing other plays first. Hamlet was Shakespeare's 22nd play, and he'd already written good plays like Romeo and Juliet and Julius Caesar. But also, to write Hamlet, you had to have a London theater company. And Shakespeare had the best theater company, best theater in London. So there were only about two dozen outstanding Elizabethan dramatists.

• 14:16Speaker 02

  We know every one of them, and we've got their plays. So we can read their plays and decide whether their plays were as good as Hamlet. None of them wrote plays that were as good as Hamlet. So that's why I call it the Hamlet test. We know all of the other candidates. Whereas in the case of Jeff Bezos, we can't name all 340 million Americans who might have done what he did.

• 14:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:37Dax Shepard?

  Right. Okay. So let's start where the book kind of starts. And this is, again, probably not a very well-known story about Hitler, but in 1930, years before he becomes chancellor, he is being driven in a car in the passenger seat by a chauffeur, and a large truck that is speeding towards them. The impact seems inevitable. The chauffeur floors it. They narrowly avoid what would have probably been the death of Adolf Hitler years before he was chancellor. So then this brings this tasty question. Would Germany have had this trajectory without Adolf Hitler? How do we work through this counterfactual fantasy?

• 15:13Speaker 02

  So I was born in 1937, which means that I grew up in the world of Hitler. And on top of that, my family's from Europe on both sides. My wife is from Poland, the last of my family in Europe, and half of my wife's family in Poland disappeared in the Holocaust. In the case of my wife's family, we know that one of them died. My wife's father's father was killed on the train to Auschwitz. My wife's mother survived Auschwitz with legacies. So in the case of Hitler, historians debate, would World War II and the Holocaust have happened if there had not been Hitler? They write biographies. The trouble with writing biographies is all biographers have to recount the same facts.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  And most biographers conclude he made a difference. But then A.J. P. Taylor, perhaps the best-known British historian of the post-war period, concluded, using the same facts, Hitler was a normal German politician who did what any German politician would have done, and so Hitler did not make a difference. Biographers would argue that Hitler did make a difference because he was way out of line in his antisemitism. There were plenty of German antisemites, but none proposed industrial-scale extermination. He was the most charismatic speaker for good or for evil. He was infinitely above even Winston Churchill in his charisma.

• 16:37Speaker 02

  He also was amazingly skilled as a deceiver of people. He's famous for having deceived Neville Chamberlain at Munich. But on top of that, he deceived German industrialists, and he deceived German generals, and he deceived his fellow Nazis. He was a great deceiver. So those are the reasons why most biographers believe that Hitler made a difference, but A.J. P. Taylor didn't. So how can one settle it? The method that can bring conclusions is the method that I call natural experiments. So I trained in medical physiology. I worked in the laboratory. Chemists, molecular biologists, they work in the laboratory, and they discover things

• 17:22Speaker 02

  by means of controlled, manipulative experiments. Meaning you've got two batches of test tubes, and one you pour die in, and the other you don't pour. You've set up the experiment yourself. If we, social scientists, were permitted to do such experiments, I would run around since World War II, killing 47 prime ministers and not killing 200 prime ministers. And then I would do the statistics, and quickly I would know whether prime ministers made a difference. That's not nice, and it's illegal, and it's immoral. But history has done that experiment for me. Namely, since World War II, there have been 47 prime ministers who died, natural deaths of cancer and heart disease, and Harold Holt drowned. And then there are about 200 prime ministers who didn't die in natural deaths.

• 18:07Speaker 02

  But we can compare the outcomes, and the numbers are so high that we can do statistics on it. Or, in the business world, if I wanted to see whether CEOs make a difference, I could experimentally kill CEOs, but it's not nice. But let's be less drastic. Instead of killing CEOs, we will kill their first-degree relatives. If CEOs make a difference, they'll get upset. But if CEOs don't make a difference, who cares whether they get upset? And in fact, it happens. When the spouse or the only child of a CEO dies, the CEO really gets upset, and the business income goes way down. The next worst is if a sibling of a CEO dies. The CEO gets upset, but not quite upset.

• 18:51Speaker 02

  And yes, these earnings go down.

• 18:53Dax Shepard?

  Proportionally.

• 18:54Speaker 03

  Interesting.

• 18:55Dax Shepard?

  The punchline of this is amazing.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  If a parent dies, you get upset, but you expect parents to die. So the earnings go down but less. If your in-law dies.

• 19:05Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 19:06Dax Shepard?

  Your mother-in-law or your father-in-law.

• 19:08Speaker 02

  If mother-in-law dies, that's the only death which produces that increase in earnings. But the sample size is small, the effect is small, and it's not quite statistically significant.

• 19:22Speaker 03

  That's very funny.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  What it means is that, without being permitted to do the manipulative experiment, we can analyze the natural experiment, that relatives of various degrees of closeness die, and those deaths psychologists will tell us that some of those deaths are a bigger blow than other deaths. So that's the natural experiment.

• 19:42Dax Shepard?

  So let's go through some of the columns. We touched on it for a second, but if we start with politics and history, I cannot pronounce his name, but Kama?

• 19:50Speaker 02

  Siretzi Kama.

• 19:51Dax Shepard?

  Siretzi Kama, who we talked about, I think, sufficiently. If we added up the fact that he was the first president of a brand-new nation that was incredibly poor, didn't have a lot of college-educated folks, didn't have paved roads, had no foreseeable access to money or resources. He's unique. He makes some unique decisions. Yeah, he keeps around some British administrators that have a lot of experience with administration and bureaucracy. That's kind of a rare choice that he makes. Once they discover the diamonds, as we talked about, he is in this position to grant all of those mineral rights to the people of the country. He proves that he's an extraordinary leader, and that he is unusually high discretion. Anything he says pretty much goes.

• 20:34Dax Shepard?

  And crucial decisions, plus some favorable circumstances, and perfect timing, makes him an enormously impactful individual. And then maybe to counter him, let's talk about Rachel Carson. Who is Rachel Carson?

• 20:47Speaker 02

  The two science books in the last. 170 years that made the biggest impact on the world were Darwin's Origin of Species, Rachel Carson's Silent Spring. Rachel Carson's book Silent Spring about the damage to lands and to animals and to people caused by toxic chemicals, jump started the environmental revolution. Now, Rachel Carson was unique. She passed the Hamlet test as Sir Eretzikama. She was uniquely qualified to do it because she was a scientist. So other scientists answered her letters from childhood on. She wrote prose, but she read the prose back to herself.

• 21:32Speaker 02

  She listened to it. So she was a writer, but she was also a poet whose writing style is still the most beautiful writing style of scientists today.

• 21:41Dax Shepard?

  She could have just been a beautiful novelist, but also had this biology background.

• 21:46Speaker 02

  Right. Compared to the best other science writers, Richard Dawkins, who is terrific, Paul Ehrlich, who was terrific. Rachel Carson's writing style is still much better because she read it back and she listened to it with the ear of a poet. Two other advantages of Rachel Carson. She was not a university professor. In those days, if you were a university professor writing for the public, that was really bad because it meant you're writing for the public because your career is washed up and you're prostituting yourself. So you turn to writing for the public. It's still the case today.

• 22:18Dax Shepard?

  Really?

• 22:19Speaker 02

  The only time UCLA denied me a promotion was when I won the Pulitzer Prize.

• 22:23Speaker 03

  Oh my God.

• 22:25Speaker 02

  Which proved that I was prostituted.

• 22:27Speaker 03

  What? That's crazy.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  It is crazy, but that's academia.

• 22:31Dax Shepard?

  Can you answer the psychology behind that? I mean, I understand publishing in peer reviewed journals and that that's the high watermark for anyone under their employ. They're trying to get their university to have massive cachet. So the more peer reviewed journal published, the higher that rises. But why does a book for the public diminish that?

• 22:51Speaker 02

  Partly it's envy.

• 22:52Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  So someone who writes a successful book for the public is doing what other academics would like to do, although they won't admit it. And it's also the case that there's a belief that if you're writing a book for the public, it's because you can no longer write good papers that get 32 citations in the Journal of Planetarian Earth Science.

• 23:13Speaker 03

  And nobody reads it.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  And nobody reads it except 31 other planetary scientists.

• 23:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  So there's a feeling that if you're writing a book for the public, you're doing it because you're all washed up. And since you're all washed up, you prostitute yourself. But Rachel Carson, with her beautiful writing style, a man who wrote with a beautiful writing style, who wrote like a poet, everybody would be suspicious about that man.

• 23:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:36Speaker 02

  Whereas Rachel Carson is a woman. It's okay for a woman to write with a beautiful writing style. And so for all those reasons, Rachel Carson, I think passes the Hamlet test, was uniquely qualified to write Silent Spring.

• 23:49Dax Shepard?

  Also, what was relevant, she really exposed DDT as being the big chemical that we later found out was what was killing, right? The bald eagles. And so that gets to Kennedy, this book. And then all of a sudden we have the EPA and we do outlaw DDT, which is great.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  In the case of, in the business world, do you drink pomegranate juice?

• 24:07Dax Shepard?

  I don't personally, but I'm very, very aware of it.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  Pomegranates were domesticated, something like 4,000 B.C. They've been around for a long time. Yes, you can get juice out of them in Middle Eastern markets until the year 2002. There was no pomegranate juice industry in the U.S. In the Middle East, you could go to a Saturday market and the salesman would cut open a pome- and squeeze a glass of pomegranate. But there was no pomegranate juice industry. The reason is that they're hard, much of the medical benefit and much of the flavor is in the rind, but you can't do it like an orange, cutting it in half and squeeze it. Instead, to make pomegranate juice, you need literally a three story press that can grind this really hard stuff and get the juice out of it.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  Well, as of 2002, pomegranates being Mediterranean climate plant, pomegranates were grown in the United States, only in California. And there were about 22 pomegranate farmers in California. Of those 22 pomegranate farmers, 21 were ordinary poor farmers. So they did not launch a pomegranate juice industry. But Linda Resnick ran a company, successful company. She had lots of money. Her husband invested some of the money in buying acreage in the Central Valley. So they're now the largest agricultural landowners in California. And he discovered that on his land were 125 pomegranate trees, about which he knew nothing. But Linda Resnick read about them and learned that they might have medical value. So she invests $150 million in learning what the medical value is.

• 25:37Speaker 02

  And then they build this three story press because they've got other products. So in 2002, they launched the pomegranate juice industry. We're upon Coca-Cola and Nestle, jump in and start producing fake pomegranate juice. So they spend another $120 million suing Coca-Cola and so on in the Supreme Court. These other 22 farmers, first of all, they don't have the $150 million. But on top of that, they have tiny fractions of the market. Even if they had $150 million, it wouldn't be worth spending $150 million if you only have a tiny fraction of the market. But the Resnick's had produced half the pomegranate juice in the United States. Plus they had the money, plus their company was not a public stock company whose stockholders would have said, for heaven's sakes, don't waste our money.

• 26:20Dax Shepard?

  He had some unproven beverage in the already oversaturated beverage market.

• 26:25Speaker 02

  That's right. They controlled their money. And so it took them 18 years to make a profit on it. It was not a way to get rich. They got richer in other ways, but they passed the Hamlet test because out of those 22 pomegranate farmers, they were the only ones who controlled enough of the market and who had enough money and who had the money themselves, not as a stock company, that they could lose money on pomegranates for 18 years.

• 26:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, there's likely never a pomegranate beverage without her. She has this kink about finding medicinal outcomes for existing, right? Plants and fruits. Like you gotta have her weird interest in that to then bring this thing to market.

• 27:08Speaker 04

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 27:13Dax Shepard?

  We get support from YouTube Premium. Okay, I gotta tell you something. I just got YouTube Premium this year and it's completely enhanced how I use YouTube. I already liked YouTube for obvious reasons. I've watched all my car stuff on there.

• 27:29Speaker 03

  Everything.

• 27:29Dax Shepard?

  Everything's on there and thought, how could YouTube get any better? Well, Premium has awesome features like offline downloads, just use it on a plane ride. So I can download my favorite automotive shows and videos to watch when I'm on the go. And that means I don't have to wait when I don't have Wi-Fi, which is especially great when I'm traveling and don't have guaranteed Wi-Fi on airplanes. Speaking of not waiting, and this is my favorite part, YouTube Premium is ad free. So I can watch uninterrupted whenever, wherever. Background play also comes in clutch because I can lock my screen and keep the audio going. This comes in handy when I go out for a walk or when I'm in the middle of a great podcast. Plus it has a ton of other features I didn't even know about. Like, did you know Premium automatically downloads videos from channels you subscribe to?

• 28:14Dax Shepard?

  So even when I forget, my content is still right there for me. So if you're like me and you already like YouTube, you're going to love YouTube Premium. Try it now for two months free. Trial eligibility varies. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking your teeth before walking into a meeting? You smiled at six people in the hallway confidently, full teeth? You felt great about it until you caught your reflection and realized you'd been carrying a piece of spinach like an accessory since lunch. Yeah, checking first is a good idea. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate.

• 28:57Dax Shepard?

  Potential savings vary, subject to terms, conditions and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Company and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. We get support from our presenting sponsor, YouTube Premium. Now you already know I'm a big YouTube person. It's incredible on its own, but Premium makes the whole experience feel enhanced. Like you don't realize how much better it can get until you try it. The biggest game changer for me, background play. I love long two hour deep dives, you name it, motorcycles, travel, cars.

• 29:28Speaker 03

  Cooking shows for me.

• 29:29Dax Shepard?

  Cooking. Listen, with Premium, you don't have to keep the screen open. So I can lock my phone, slide it into my pocket and listen to a podcast while I'm folding laundry or working out. It's also completely ad free, meaning when a narrator is building up to the climax of an insane story, there's zero interruption. And for travel, offline downloads saves the day. I love this one. Relying on airplane Wi-Fi can be a gamble, so I just download my favorite videos before takeoff. And with smart downloads, Premium will automatically download new videos from channels you actually follow without having to lift a finger. I'm covered if I forget to download a video I want to watch, or even if there's no service. And the home run for me is that YouTube Premium remembers exactly where I left off and lets

• 30:12Dax Shepard?

  me continue watching on another device from right where I stopped. So I can start a video on my TV while brushing my teeth and pick it right back up on my phone on my morning walk. So yeah, YouTube was already great, but Premium supercharges it. If you like YouTube, you'll love Premium. Try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com/premium. Trial eligibility varies. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. We get support from Superhuman. I'm someone who wants to do big, meaningful work, but the small stuff eats up my day before I even get to it. The endless emails, docs, scheduling, follow ups that pile up. By the time all that's cleared, there's no energy left for the ambitious stuff. Most AI tools promise to fix that, but they require opening a new tab, re-explaining everything

• 30:57Dax Shepard?

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• 31:43Dax Shepard?

  Before we move into businesses, I just want to say or ask you, you do survey 22 modern political leaders, Churchill, Mandela, Mao, Idi Amin, a bunch. What patterns emerge when you look at these 22 modern political leaders?

• 31:59Speaker 02

  Certainly, all of them had discretion. Some of them were dictators. Some of them were wartime leaders, Winston Churchill. Some of them were founders, Nelson Mandela and Lee Kuan Yew. Those are things shared among them. But there was one thing shared among them that I hadn't expected. I noticed when I went over the table. Of those 22 founders, there were only two who retired voluntarily, Nelson Mandela and Lee Kuan Yew. The other 20 founders didn't retire voluntarily. They committed suicide like Hitler or they got assassinated like Anwar Sadat or they got voted out of office like Winston Churchill. So what it means is that once you become an outstanding political leader

• 32:44Speaker 02

  and you've developed a high opinion of yourself, you're not likely to lose that high opinion of yourself and step down voluntarily. That was a surprise for me.

• 32:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's interesting.

• 32:54Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's a good bit of knowledge that we should keep in mind if and when we ever get a charismatic leader that we all love. We need to go, and this person will never show themselves the way out. I mean, that's part of the reason we have term limits, right, on presidents? But it's why they're so crucial, because we know none of them will leave voluntarily.

• 33:14Speaker 02

  Well, two out of 20. Two out of 20. But Nelson Mandela, he was 90 years old. And Lee Kuan Yew, he'd been in office for 40 years. 40 years is enough.

• 33:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I mean, they left, but come on. I mean, they also didn't leave. Okay, so when we look at business, you have Bezos, Zuckerberg, Gates and Musk not passing the Hamlet test.

• 33:36Speaker 02

  None of them passed the Hamlet test.

• 33:38Dax Shepard?

  Let me be clear. I don't enjoy this man's personality. But I have to say, after reading the book on Elon Musk

• 33:46Speaker 03

  Walter Isaacson.

• 33:47Dax Shepard?

  by Walter Isaacson, I find him largely repugnant. But also, any industry he has entered, he has had impossible success. When you're reading that book, you're thinking Tesla, but you're forgetting that he started OpenAI. He also has SpaceX, which is the most successful. And then he had prior to that, the money exchange thing he had. You don't think he's unique in his Shakespearean skill set?

• 34:11Speaker 02

  If he is, it's impossible to prove it because whereas Shakespeare was one of, what, 20 Elizabethan dramatists? Elon Musk, he was one of 320 million Americans. How can you go through all of those 320 million Americans the way you can go through the 21 other Shakespearean dramatists? And one by one, you say, no, he couldn't, she couldn't.

• 34:31Dax Shepard?

  But we have 10,000 known engineers, mechanical engineers.

• 34:34Speaker 02

  By all means, in your spare time, please go through those 10,000 mechanical engineers. It'll be more difficult than going through Shakespeare's 21 contemporaries, and it hasn't been done.

• 34:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't please me to announce this, but I do think he is an Edison-like figure.

• 34:54Speaker 02

  That's possible.

• 34:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, but there's also other competitors in the market. So it's not like Tesla's the only one. If it was still the only one, maybe you could say that. But I feel like it still was a revolution apart from him.

• 35:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I mean, SpaceX still one of one. You've got Bezos trying to do it. But SpaceX is very one of one. And then the satellite network, he somehow launches 5,000. I mean, it's astronomical what this one human being has accomplished. But maybe in history, through the lens of history, we will be better able to gauge whether or not he was an Edison or just at the right place at the right time.

• 35:31Speaker 02

  Right, and of the other big four, Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, et cetera, they were all undoubtedly very talented people. Were they less outstanding, less unique than Elon Musk? Maybe, but it's not possible to make the argument the way you can for Shakespeare, unless in your remaining years, you wish to go through those 10,000.

• 35:53Dax Shepard?

  No, I'm far too into boating.

• 35:58Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so you took a very quantitative look at whether CEOs matter. We scratched it a little bit. But let's talk about when CEOs die. What happens? We have some good data on that.

• 36:11Speaker 02

  When CEOs die, the best data set is for Denmark. It's a small country. There were only 76,000 businesses in Denmark, 76,000 CEOs. A professor at Copenhagen Business School, since he went through 76,000, you go there with your 10,000. So when CEOs die, the business earnings drop. That's on the average.

• 36:35Dax Shepard?

  Like 13% within two years is the number in the book.

• 36:37Speaker 02

  Something like that, yeah. Showing that CEOs have some effect. But is the CEO the only person who affects the earnings of a company? And there, it's clear, no. Again, these professors at business schools have looked at the factors that affect company earnings. And there are four. Perhaps the first thing you would think of is the year. 1930 was a bad year to run a stock company in the United States, the year of the Depression. 2008 was not a good year in the United States. So the year makes a difference. Second thing that makes the difference, of course, is the company. Procter & Gamble has been a very well-run company for 150 years. And CEO after CEO, there are some industries that are profitable. When you do the statistics,

• 37:21Speaker 02

  it turns out that the CEO and the individual company and the industry are roughly equal in accounting for roughly one-third of profits. And the individual year, despite 1930, on the average, accounts for only between 1% and 6% of profits. So that's a case where statisticians can break down the relative importance of those four factors. And conclusion, if a CEO comes along and says, my business has made $100 billion this year, so the least you can do is pay me a lousy few billion dollars. I'm the only person who could have done it. The response to that is,

• 38:06Speaker 02

  on the average, you account for one-third of company earnings, but that's on the average. Maybe you're the CEO who accounts for 80% of company earnings. But stockholders shouldn't routinely swallow the line that CEOs account for most of company earnings. They don't. Some do, but most don't. In most cases, we can say, certainly, one can debate Elon Musk. But in the other big four, Steve Jobs and Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg.

• 38:38Dax Shepard?

  Or even Steve Jobs.

• 38:39Speaker 02

  Even Steve Jobs.

• 38:40Dax Shepard?

  Kind of a, what would we describe people's feeling about it? He has a mythical, he has kind of a mythical aura.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  Despite their undoubted talents, the fact is that other people founded successful companies in their spheres. Their companies ran in different ways. So what one can say about these big five, even Elon Musk, is that at minimum, they put their stamp on the way an industry operated. Other people also were successful in the industry, but they ran in a different way. And for example, so there were companies that tried to sell everything before Jeff Bezos.

• 39:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, Sears & Roebuck, Kmart, Walmart.

• 39:21Speaker 02

  eBay, but they operated in a different way. They didn't operate online. And then after Bezos, Walmart then got into the everything store. So what one can say about him and about all five of them is that they may not have passed the Hamlet test. But what they did do is put their stamp on an industry, caused an industry to develop in a distinctive way. How can leaders make a difference? Some leaders can uniquely do something that nobody else could have done at all. Shakespeare with Hamlet, Linda Resnick. But most leaders achieved something that other leaders could have achieved, but the leaders achieved it in a distinctive way and put their stamp on a country or on a business.

• 40:05Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 40:06Speaker 03

  I mean, that's good. It means more people have that option. If everyone has to pass the Hamlet test, that's not possible.

• 40:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:13Dax Shepard?

  Let's talk about sports. And this is fun for both of us. So let's talk about John Wooden. Will you talk a little bit about him and what he accomplished at UCLA?

• 40:21Speaker 02

  Sure. John Wooden is generally regarded as the greatest coach in American sports in the last century and maybe the greatest coach in any country. Before John Wooden, I was born in 1937, so the major sports when I was growing up were. Baseball, I was in the ear, Boston, the great Ted Williams. And football, basketball was comparatively minor sport. John Wooden gets a large share of the credit for making basketball a major sport up there with with football. He was a master of detail, the detail that he went to. Not only did he teach his players how to dribble, he taught them how to roll up their socks.

• 41:05Speaker 02

  Makes a difference how you roll up your socks. His practices, they went for two and a half or three hours and he would tell his play, run that play. And then at the end he would say, run it again faster, run it again faster, faster, faster.

• 41:16Dax Shepard?

  The practices were faster than the game by design.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 41:20Dax Shepard?

  Which is crazy. You practice a little lighter than you play the game in general.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  He emphasized being in peak physical condition. So when UCLA played against Duke for the NCAA, Duke's players averaged six foot eight. UCLA players averaged six foot four, but UCLA players couldn't jump higher than Duke players, so UCLA won. He was a great psychologist. He understood individual players. On top of that, he was great at getting people to work together. But then perhaps the most important thing about him, that in fact, his own players emphasized, they said, yes, he was a great basketball coach, but he was the most important person in my life, other than my mother and father, because for him, basketball wasn't a game. Basketball was a metaphor for life.

• 42:08Speaker 02

  And so what his players learned out of playing basketball was yes, to achieve success in basketball, but also to achieve success in life. And that's something that you can't fake. Yes, there were other great basketball coaches, Bobby Knight, who was not a nice person as was John Wooden, but nobody would say that Bobby Knight was a metaphor for how to operate life.

• 42:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:31Dax Shepard?

  How to handle oneself in public. Yeah, a couple of unique things he did. Well, first of all, he won 10 national championships, which is bonkers. But he, unlike these other dictators who, and well, this will be towards the end, we learned, they fail because there's no feedback for them. He was in a position to be quite strong headed, but when they had a losing season, he went back to the drawing board, made this realization that these subs weren't playing enough minutes to be good. And when he had a player like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, he changed the game to suit him. He was flexible and was endlessly on a path of kind of discovery and curiosity. And I think that's quite unique about him. He could have gotten set in his ways and said, no, no, I know how to win.

• 43:15Dax Shepard?

  Kareem, you'll play the way I play, you know?

• 43:18Speaker 02

  He was a thinking coach. And as you say, in that, I think it was 14th year at UCLA, when his team did not well, instead of blaming his players, he spent a lot of time figuring out what had gone wrong.

• 43:31Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so now you take down these universities in a very fun way, which is now statistically, how much do coaches change outcomes? Let's talk about the actual power of the coach.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  The number is similar to that 30% for CEOs. Coaches make a difference, but they don't make the entire difference as they think. What other things make a difference? Having a great player with your team, but that's not enough. The amount of money that the school puts in. Alabama puts huge amounts of money into their football team. UCLA doesn't. Alabama pays its coach three times what UCLA pays its coach. The facilities, UCLA has a much better basketball court, Poly Pavilion, than does USC. But USC has better football practice facilities with the result that USC is better in football and UCLA is better in basketball.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  All of which means that the coaches make a difference, but they don't make an overwhelming difference. And the proof of this is that if UCLA's chancellor and if UCLA's athletic director had seen fit to ask me or to read my book, our athletic department would not now be $155 million in debt from having fired basketball coach after coach after coach after coach.

• 44:46Dax Shepard?

  And you got to buy out their contract.

• 44:48Speaker 03

  That's bad.

• 44:49Dax Shepard?

  And then you get into this incredible statistic in the book, which is when researchers compare poorly performing teams that fire their coach with equally poor teams that retain theirs, both groups tend to improve by roughly the same amount.

• 45:03Speaker 03

  Interesting.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  That's right. It's like throwing dice. There's no skill involved in getting getting six, it's just pure chance. Coaches make some difference, but they're closer to the throwing dice end.

• 45:16Dax Shepard?

  Because they're already great. The coach UCLA brings in presumably is already top tier coach.

• 45:21Speaker 02

  Presumably. And in fact, our basketball coaches, I think all of our basketball coaches since John Wooden have had winning records of like 65 or 70%. Any other school would be thrilled out of their minds to have every one of our basketball coaches, every one of whom we fired.

• 45:36Dax Shepard?

  100% of the coaches since Wooden have been fired.

• 45:38Speaker 03

  That's crazy.

• 45:40Speaker 02

  They didn't live up to Wooden.

• 45:42Speaker 03

  Part of it is the culture too, right? Like in the South, football is the culture. So schools are going to put a lot of money in there because they make a lot of money there.

• 45:51Speaker 02

  But I have to add to that, that UCLA's football and basketball coaches were the highest paid or the second highest paid employees of the state of California.

• 46:03Speaker 03

  Oh, oh my.

• 46:04Dax Shepard?

  Of the whole state?

• 46:05Speaker 02

  Of the whole, of all employees of the state of California. And our chancellor, the salary of our chancellor is one tenth of the salary of our basketball and football coaches. That tells you something.

• 46:19Dax Shepard?

  Tells you that Adam Smith was right and market forces are strong. Okay, let's talk about religion because religion, to me, seems like the greatest place to evaluate charisma.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:31Dax Shepard?

  Because obviously, most religions, if not all, were started by a charismatic prophet who was claiming some kind of revelation. So let's start with Joseph Smith. Let's talk about him a little bit.

• 46:43Speaker 02

  Joseph Smith, founder of Mormon religion. But let's place him in context. So within the last 200 years, there have been four new religions that have spread around the world.

• 46:52Dax Shepard?

  Which are they?

• 46:53Speaker 02

  Mormon religion, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Christian Science. All four of those are American religions, but there have been new religions founded in other, the Mahdi of the Sudan in the late 1800s, founded a new religion which expanded over northeast Africa, but didn't expand around the world. Why is it that all four of the new religions of the last 150 years that have spread worldwide were American religion? I think that it's a no brainer. The United States had the economic power and we eventually had the military power. The Mormon religion, every Mormon man and Mormon women have the option, but every Mormon

• 47:34Speaker 02

  man is required to spend two years of his life at age 18 proselytizing.

• 47:39Dax Shepard?

  On mission.

• 47:40Speaker 02

  And if he doesn't have much money, then you go on mission 70 miles away. But if you have enough money, you go overseas to Europe and to the Pacific. And that's enabled the Mormon religion, because it's derived from the wealthy United States, to become a worldwide religion. Now, it's true that the founders of all four of those religions were charismatic. In other spheres of leadership, charisma is not the only way to become an effective leader. Augusto Pinochet, the vile dictator of Chile, he was not charismatic in the least, or Stau were not charismatic. They terrified people. So there are other ways besides charisma to become a leader in politics. But in in religion, the only way to start becoming a leader is to be charismatic.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  But charisma isn't enough. There are all these charismatic New Guineans and others who found religions in New Guinea, but their religions don't go anywhere. For religion to go somewhere, the religion has to have what I'd call an economic and demographic engine. The leader of a religion or leaders need at least two qualities and maybe three. You have to have charisma or you go nowhere. You also have to be or have a great organizer. So the Christian religion, Christ wasn't a great organizer. I mean, he was killed too early. We don't know how he would have been as an organizer.

• 48:56Dax Shepard?

  I heard his room was messy.

• 49:01Speaker 02

  St. Paul was the organizer of Christianity. In the case of Islam, there, Mohammed was not only a charismatic, but he was a great organizer. And in the case of the Mahdi of the Sudan, he was a fantastic organizer as well as charismatic. The third thing that a religion may need is it may need a general in an army because religions often face resistance. The Christians did not attempt to fight back because the Roman army was too strong. But the Mormon religion did fight back. The Mormon religion had its own army.

• 49:33Dax Shepard?

  Bring them young.

• 49:36Speaker 04

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 49:42Dax Shepard?

  We get support from Instagram teen accounts. So we talk a lot on this show about how the world is different now than when we were growing up. And one of the biggest differences is obviously social media. And I think a lot of people wonder, okay, what's actually being done to make it safer for teenagers?

• 49:59Speaker 01

  Which is a fair question.

• 50:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so Instagram has got something called teen accounts and they come with automatic protections built in by default. So anyone between 13 and 17 is automatically placed into this experience. They get age appropriate content settings, contact limits, so that by default, only people they're already connected to can message them. And time management tools, daily time limit reminders, and also sleep mode that mutes notifications from 10:00 PM to 7:00 AM.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  Sleep mode is genius.

• 50:27Dax Shepard?

  Right? And here's the thing, for anyone under 16, a parent has to give permission to change any of those settings to be less strict. The guardrails are on and Instagram keeps building new safety features to create age appropriate experiences for teens.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  I am really glad Instagram is helping to give parents peace of mind with teen accounts.

• 50:47Dax Shepard?

  Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com/teenaccounts. We get support from our sponsor, Lilly. For adults with obesity or with excess weight and weight related medical problems, it's time to find out about Foundo or for Gleepran. Foundo is a once daily prescription GLP-1 medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off.

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• 52:00Speaker 05

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• 52:18Dax Shepard?

  This episode is supported by Helix.

• 52:22Speaker 01

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• 52:32Dax Shepard?

  That's the dream. You just described one of my ideal fall nights.

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• 52:52Dax Shepard?

  Increasingly so.

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  I need it. I have to have it. And I heard that you're supposed to sleep at a cold temp for optimal sleep. It's very, very helpful.

• 53:03Dax Shepard?

  She is not wrong. I have one too, and it's been such a game changer for sleep. And I love that they make it so easy, free shipping right to your door. And what they're happy with Helix guarantee, you'll get a full 365 nights to try it. A whole year to live in that cozy. They've got over 20 mattress models, so no matter how you sleep, they've got one for you.

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• 53:31Dax Shepard?

  Go to helixsleep.com/armchair for 20% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com/armchair for 20% off site wide. Helixsleep.com/armchair. This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I have my dream job. I get to talk to folks I admire like crazy and ask them virtually any question that I want to. I can't imagine a better way to spend my time. But even dream jobs have some not so dreamy parts. The stuff that gets in the way of the actual work. Now that's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work.

• 54:13Dax Shepard?

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• 54:39Speaker 02

  After the death of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young became the organizer.

• 54:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you see in the book, you know, Joseph Smith gets a lot of the credit and the acknowledgement. But without Brigham Young, he's the one who really takes it to a place where we can have the infrastructure and have the mission and have the capital and resources like Joseph needs him, or we don't really have Mormonism probably.

• 55:00Speaker 02

  That's right. This just illustrates then that religion needs charismatic founder, absolutely. Needs an organizer, absolutely. And sometimes it also needs an army and a general. And in a few cases, the Mahdi of the Sudan and then Mohammed, those two fulfilled all three roles. Mohammed, he was an outstanding organizer, outstanding general, as well as charismatic founder, and similarly the Mahdi. But in the case of Christianity, the only one of the three roles that Christ fulfilled was the charismatic founder. St. Paul was the organizer and eventually.

• 55:37Dax Shepard?

  The Roman state was the military.

• 55:40Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 55:41Dax Shepard?

  What about Jim Jones? Let's talk about him. He's always fun to talk about.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  I was gonna say cults have that similar trajectory.

• 55:47Speaker 02

  Jim Jones was a charismatic, I never met him, but he was described as a charismatic religious leader.

• 55:53Dax Shepard?

  I didn't know till reading your book, I didn't realize he was quite legitimate before he was a cult leader.

• 55:58Speaker 02

  He played a large role in integrating Indianapolis. He was admired because he was anti-racist. He led the movement to desegregate Indianapolis. And so he attracted idealistic people. When he moved to California again, he attracted idealistic people. So he had his positive side. His negative sides were that he eventually went crazy. He was a sexual predator. He was economically dishonest.

• 56:28Dax Shepard?

  He was a drug abuser.

• 56:29Speaker 02

  He drove his entire group to suicide, but he was a charismatic person who was also an outstanding organizer. Was he a general? Close to it. He didn't fight in the United States, but he certainly ensured that Jonestown was well protected militarily.

• 56:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they were well armed, as I recall from the documentary. Let's talk about really quick in our natural experiment that we flirted with at the beginning. Comparing 83 heads of state assassinated since the Second World War with the far larger number of 140 who died of cancer and heart disease. What do we find when these great leaders die or consequential leaders? I don't know if I'll say great, what happens when they die?

• 57:06Speaker 02

  What we find when they die depends upon what the social scientist who did the study is interested in looking at. Namely, the natural experiment gives you a database and then you can mine that database for anything. So for example, if you compare prime ministers who die of natural death, die of cancer, with prime ministers who don't die of cancer, you can compare and you can ask multiple questions. Jones and Olson, first question they asked was, do leaders make a difference economically? And when a leader dies, does the economy of the country suffer or does it improve? So Jones and Olson asked about the effect of leader death on the economy.

• 57:48Speaker 02

  What they found was that if you compared the economy two years later, after the death of a leader, with the economy two years later, after the non-death of a leader, the leader stays in place. On the average, the economy stays the same because half of economies get better and half of economies get worse because some leaders are good for the economy and some leaders are bad for the economy. When Mao and when the founding leader of Mozambique, when they died, the economy got better. Those were leaders whose deaths improved the economy. So you can use that database to look at the effects on the economy. Another thing, if a leader dies, and this is wartime,

• 58:32Speaker 02

  does the death of a leader make it more likely that the war will come to an end? And it turns out that if the leader is a dictator and a dictator dies during wartime, then it is more likely that the war will come to an end because a wartime dictator knows that if the war carries on and loses the war, he's going to be killed like Mussolini, get killed in an awful way.

• 58:56Dax Shepard?

  It's not hard to imagine that if Putin had a heart attack tomorrow morning, that the course of Kiev would be much different. The Ukraine war would probably come to a resolution in the absence of Putin.

• 59:09Speaker 02

  I agree with you and I'm not permitted to do that experiment.

• 59:14Speaker 02

  Killing Putin, but on top of that, the experiment hasn't happened yet as a natural experiment, but we shall see.

• 59:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Okay. Two last things. One is when do leaders matter? And this is an example of discretion plus timing. There are fun examples where it's like, it doesn't really matter how profound your point of view is or your discovery. If you're not timing it correctly, it doesn't really matter. We have some crazy examples from science, do we not?

• 59:43Speaker 02

  So continental drift and plate tectonics. If you look at the map of the world, you look at the east coast of South America and the west coast of Africa, they fit very well, suspiciously well. Which led Alfred Wegener, a German climatologist, to postulate that the continents had drifted. And it's not just the fit of South America to Africa suggests the evidence was somewhat limited. He could not think of a mechanism that would enable continents to drift. He suggested the continents drifted because of the rotation of the earth. But it became easy to do the numbers and it doesn't work. So Wegener died on an expedition to Greenland in 1930 and he was widely disbelieved.

• 1:00:25Speaker 02

  This is something I remember because I was a postdoc at Harvard from 1962 to 1966, just at the time that continental drift was proven. There were many things that proved it. The two most important things that proved it were lines of seafloor spreading, magnetic reversals. And the other thing was the discovery of magma upwelling. This amazing discovery.

• 1:00:51Dax Shepard?

  Is this where two plates are joining? There's a gap and the magma spurts out?

• 1:00:55Speaker 02

  It was one of my colleagues at Harvard in 1962, who was the first to see with deep underwater vehicles, the first to see on these lines the bubbling up of

• 1:01:06Dax Shepard?

  welds, really?

• 1:01:07Speaker 02

  Magma. So they had the right idea, but at the wrong time. The evidence for it came out in the 1960s. And again, the foundation of genetics. Genetics was founded by Austrian monk Mendel. Published his paper in 1868. He had it absolutely right, but it was ignored. Not until 1900. Three scientists independently were doing similar experiments, and they all rediscovered Mendels. But Mendel in 1868, it was the wrong time. The world was not ready for Mendel. But the world was ready for these other three people in 1900.

• 1:01:40Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so it's hard not to imagine that you wrote prophets, prophets, coaches and kings. When do leaders matter? You wrote it in a certain time and place. And that time and place, obviously, is at a moment where we have great polarization. We have a very polarizing president. When you or do you, are you willing to run Trump through these six criteria? And what things do you think he's doing well at? And which ones do we think prevent him from being an incredibly impactful leader?

• 1:02:11Speaker 02

  I did not run Trump, nor did I run Angela Merkel through my criteria. In fact, I said, I will look only at leaders whose careers have come to an end because we can pass judgment. In the last couple of years, our view of Angela Merkel has changed greatly.

• 1:02:27Dax Shepard?

  Is it for the better or worse? I'm unaware of this.

• 1:02:29Speaker 02

  For the worse. It's not that she was an evil person, but it's now regarded that her decision to bring one or two million refugees into Germany, she was praised for it. She said, "Wir schaffen es. We can do it. Just admirable." But now

• 1:02:44Dax Shepard?

  Well, they have a far right rising currently.

• 1:02:45Speaker 02

  We have a far right rising party. And it's now recognized that, yes, it was a noble thing to do. But pragmatically, it was not a good idea for Germany economically. So that's the reason why I don't discuss any political leader whose career hasn't come to a close.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  That makes sense.

• 1:03:00Dax Shepard?

  That's totally fair.

• 1:03:02Speaker 02

  So business schools, including UCLA Business School, justify their charging tuition of $600,000. Business schools say, we will teach you how to be a successful CEO. And the way to be a successful CEO is by being charismatic. Well, the trouble is that there are many different ways to be a successful CEO, just as there are many different ways to be a successful politician. Charisma is one way, but there are political leaders and there are business leaders who've not been charismatic. Other ways to be successful are to be a master of detail, to terrify people, being a good, good discussion leader, being able to pick good followers.

• 1:03:43Dax Shepard?

  Feedback's got to be important, right? Because as you say, this is the downfall of all dictators is they are no longer subject to feedback, which is dangerous.

• 1:03:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is something that I know from my own experience running a laboratory. Because for 40 years, I ran a laboratory doing manipulative experiments on the gallbladder intestine in the UCLA Physiology Department. I had about five students. The students were all naturally younger than I, and that meant that they had been trained more recently than I. And my students didn't hesitate to tell me, Jared, you are out of date. We've learned more recently and we've got the better method, so.

• 1:04:20Dax Shepard?

  Step aside.

• 1:04:21Speaker 02

  And I learned to shut up.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  Wow, yeah. That's hard to do.

• 1:04:27Dax Shepard?

  Well, Jared, I got to say, it is, again, an enormous honor to get to talk to you. Do you turn 90 next year?

• 1:04:33Speaker 02

  I'll be 89 tomorrow.

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:04:35Dax Shepard?

  Tomorrow.

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  Happy birthday.

• 1:04:36Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so a year and a day away from 90, I suppose.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  That's exciting. What a life.

• 1:04:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, what a life. I mean, I still love from your first one. He won the MacArthur Foundation Prize. And they were quickly really bummed out that they gave it to him because they found out all he was going to do is continue to look at gallbladders. It's such a joy to get to have some of your time. And I really, really loved your book. You're a very fun writer. There's nothing too dense or academic about it. It's just a very pleasurable book, full of lots of funny and fun historical anecdotes. It's a great examination. I do think we, just philosophically speaking, I don't know if this is an American thing or a West thing where we prize individuality. I do think we overinflate in general. And if you could say, is there any conclusion at the end of this, studying this?

• 1:05:25Dax Shepard?

  We overinflate how much one person can change the country, the economy, all these incredibly dynamic forces on the planet. Do we not overestimate what one person can do? Or do we have it right?

• 1:05:38Speaker 02

  On the whole, I would say, in politics, certainly in the United States, and probably in most, most democracies, yes, we exaggerate what even a prime minister is capable of doing. It's really hard to change the economy. And if the economy is going well, we give the president credit. And if it's going poorly, we vote against the president. But it is hard for the president to change the economy. It's even harder for a governor, and it's hardest of all for a mayor, to change the economy.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:05Dax Shepard?

  And you might take office on the day they announce the global pandemic. What now? How effective can that one person be in that scenario? Well, again, what a pleasure. Jared Diamond, please read prophets, prophets, coaches and kings. When do leaders matter? It's wonderful. I hope we get to talk to you again on your next book.

• 1:06:25Speaker 02

  Thank you. I do lots of interviews, so I know there are different interviewers. And it's a great pleasure to be interviewed by you two. You've done your homework. You express yourself vividly. You understand these matters. You ask good questions. So for me, it's a pleasure to do this interview.

• 1:06:42Dax Shepard?

  Go Bruins.

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 1:06:46Dax Shepard?

  He's an armchair expert, but he makes mistakes all the time. Thank God Monica's here. She's gonna let him have the facts. I gotta tell you.

• 1:06:57Speaker 01

  Tell me.

• 1:06:58Dax Shepard?

  Last night, I did about 90 minutes of booking things. We're going to see Metallica.

• 1:07:02Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:07:03Dax Shepard?

  At the Sphere. I'm so excited. And then I was like, what else are we gonna do? We're gonna be there for two nights.

• 1:07:09Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 1:07:10Dax Shepard?

  So I got a reservation at my favorite steakhouse for Night of the Metallica Show. And then Wabi Wab helped me get a reservation for Best Friend.

• 1:07:19Speaker 01

  Oh, nice. Aw, Roy Choy.

• 1:07:22Dax Shepard?

  And then how about this left curve ball? You coming? You listening?

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  I'm here.

• 1:07:27Dax Shepard?

  I'm like Cirque du Soleil. Let's do that Friday night. Go on to get tickets for Myster. That's my favorite. I've seen it eight times.

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  Great show.

• 1:07:36Dax Shepard?

  I don't think the boys have seen it.

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:07:38Dax Shepard?

  And I'm on the page for Cirque du Soleil, and I'm kind of cruising through. Well, there's so many shows. There's so many different Cirque du Soleil shows.

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  I know. Well, you know what my favorite one is?

• 1:07:47Dax Shepard?

  Oh?

• 1:07:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:48Dax Shepard?

  It's lovely. Water.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  Love it.

• 1:07:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you're a water sign.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  No, I'm not at all. I'm a water sign, double earth and a little bit of fire for my rising. Go on, you started that?

• 1:07:58Dax Shepard?

  Well, lo and behold, I see, not only is there a Mike Jackson Cirque du Soleil, Michael Jackson.

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:08:05Dax Shepard?

  It's at my hotel.

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:08:07Dax Shepard?

  I go, fuck that. I'd rather walk downstairs than cross town.

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:08:12Dax Shepard?

  So now we're going to Cirque du Soleil, Michael Jackson.

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  That's fun.

• 1:08:15Dax Shepard?

  What a fucking weekend we're about to have.

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  Wow, this is one of those crazy, hard choices. You know, a Sophie's Choice, if you will.

• 1:08:25Dax Shepard?

  Between Myster and?

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  Yes, it's like, do you go with something you know you love that you don't get to see that often?

• 1:08:30Dax Shepard?

  And I love passing it on, right? I've taken so many people who have never been to Myster, and I know it works.

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. Or something new.

• 1:08:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  That's close by.

• 1:08:41Dax Shepard?

  That's in your backyard.

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:43Dax Shepard?

  It's an elevator right away.

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  I hope it's good.

• 1:08:45Dax Shepard?

  The tickets were more expensive than Myster, so that makes me think, minimally, people want to see it more.

• 1:08:50Speaker 01

  Maybe you could go on YouTube and just watch like two minutes to make sure people are flying around and it's not just like.

• 1:08:56Dax Shepard?

  I don't want to see an impersonation of Michael Jackson for 90 minutes.

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  And I'm not going to say which one, but I once went to a Cirque show that I was underwhelmed by, only once.

• 1:09:05Dax Shepard?

  And you're not gonna say which one?

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  No, because that's mean.

• 1:09:08Dax Shepard?

  Does it still work? Is it still up and running now?

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  Probably.

• 1:09:11Dax Shepard?

  Okay. I have seen four of them. I've seen Myster. I've seen Love.

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  Oh, the Beatles one.

• 1:09:19Dax Shepard?

  I saw that one twice.

• 1:09:20Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:09:21Dax Shepard?

  One of my funniest experiences of my life was me and Penae went. And we had drank, each of us, over a 100 Diet Cokes that day. And the show starts 10 minutes in. We peed right before the show. 10 minutes in, I go to him, I go, it's so embarrassing, I gotta go. And he goes, oh, fucking thank God you said that. I'm gonna pee my pants. We go, we sit back down. 12 minutes later, I'm like, I cannot believe I'm about to tell him this. I'm like, I gotta fucking go again. He's like, oh, my God, so. Monica, we peed six times in 90 minutes.

• 1:09:48Speaker 01

  Do you think it was psychosomatic?

• 1:09:50Dax Shepard?

  No. Every time I peed, volumes of pee.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:09:54Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Tons of, tons of girthy urine.

• 1:09:58Speaker 01

  Tons of Diet Coke piss?

• 1:10:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Clear as, clear as water.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  No, probably pretty brown.

• 1:10:04Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 1:10:04Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:10:05Dax Shepard?

  No, I just think when you drink that volume of liquid, it flushes out anything that makes your yawn yellow.

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 1:10:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  I used to kind of be obsessed with that.

• 1:10:15Dax Shepard?

  The color of your yawn?

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:16Dax Shepard?

  I could imagine you, you and I have different experiences, though.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  Because you're staring right at it?

• 1:10:22Dax Shepard?

  Oh, no, because I drink so much more fluid than you and so much more water than you. And I pee so much more than you.

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:30Dax Shepard?

  That I almost never have seen like orange.

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  Orange.

• 1:10:36Dax Shepard?

  Other than that time I had the catheter and they put a dye in there.

• 1:10:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:39Dax Shepard?

  And I hated seeing that orange yawn in the bag.

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  Of course, no one likes that.

• 1:10:43Dax Shepard?

  No, it's gross.

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  But.

• 1:10:45Dax Shepard?

  Unless you have, anyone listening's got.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it looks pretty nice. It's a pretty color, amber. But you're also like, you're peeing, you're, you're peeing where you can look straight into the toilet.

• 1:10:56Dax Shepard?

  I got a great view of my yawn. You've got to bend over.

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  Turn around, you know, I pee.

• 1:11:01Dax Shepard?

  Well, then you evaluate in the bowl?

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:04Dax Shepard?

  Well, then it's already been, um.

• 1:11:06Speaker 01

  You can still tell the difference.

• 1:11:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but it has been diluted quite a bit by the half gallon of water in there. So think how fucking orange it was before you saw it diluted.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  So you see the pee coming out of the penis. Oh, wow. Yeah, no.

• 1:11:20Dax Shepard?

  I pee out of my penis. That's what's unique about me.

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  Tell me more.

• 1:11:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so I'm using that and I can see the yawn.

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:11:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So I know right away before, I don't even gotta look in the toilet.

• 1:11:30Speaker 01

  This whole time that you were saying W, I mean, Y A W N?

• 1:11:34Dax Shepard?

  Y A, yawn.

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I thought. I thought it was like a southern word.

• 1:11:41Dax Shepard?

  Well, it is a southern pronunciation of urine.

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  Yes, but, yeah. Okay, anyway, no, yeah, I pee sitting down. That's how I pee.

• 1:11:49Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  And then I wipe and then I stand up and then I look and I'm like, okay.

• 1:11:55Dax Shepard?

  And is the anticipation building like, oh, like if you're suspicious, it's gonna be bad?

• 1:12:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:01Dax Shepard?

  Are you like, uh, let's find out.

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  Sometimes I'm like, yikes, I didn't drink water, I wonder. And then sometimes I'm happily surprised. I'm like, oh, I didn't need it.

• 1:12:12Dax Shepard?

  I drank too much, maybe.

• 1:12:14Speaker 01

  No, the other day, I drank so much water one day that I got a migraine.

• 1:12:21Dax Shepard?

  No, that's not why you got a migraine, but those two things happen, definitely correlated.

• 1:12:26Speaker 01

  It made no sense. I, I was drinking so much water all day and then I was like, oh, I have a, I'm like getting a headache, weird. Um, and then it was just like growing and growing. It was, it was so bad.

• 1:12:42Dax Shepard?

  Hearing about, if I'm be honest with you, I don't even like hearing about someone having a headache.

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:12:46Dax Shepard?

  I feel like I'm gonna get it. The way that my, when I used to have tics and someone was a blinker, it would set it off. I'm like, I don't even wanna know about headaches.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  Okay, well, this is, you know, you call me a hypochondriac, but I just wanna like point the finger.

• 1:12:57Dax Shepard?

  So you had a real throbber.

• 1:12:58Speaker 01

  It was so bad. I, I, and I had to, I was driving home and I was like, I like don't, probably shouldn't be driving. Like, I am disoriented.

• 1:13:06Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  And then I took four Advil as soon as I got home and then I put this like ice pack thing on my head and nothing, it was not working.

• 1:13:15Dax Shepard?

  None of that helped?

• 1:13:16Speaker 01

  No, and then I have this thing called a, it's like this peppermint oil thing and you, you make a halo around your hairline with it and it just like really tingles and it, and that started to help a little bit and then I think the Advil kicked in and then, but it was, it was rough.

• 1:13:31Dax Shepard?

  What was the duration of this agony?

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  Good question.

• 1:13:34Dax Shepard?

  Thanks.

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  You ask good questions.

• 1:13:37Dax Shepard?

  Thank you.

• 1:13:38Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:13:40Dax Shepard?

  An hour?

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  Longer than that.

• 1:13:42Dax Shepard?

  Two hours.

• 1:13:42Speaker 01

  Maybe two. I didn't wanna look at my phone a lot. It was, that would hurt, you know?

• 1:13:47Dax Shepard?

  All I can, it makes me remember having hangovers and that I would be laying on my pillow in bed and I'd like keep micro adjusting my head and I'd find this little sliver of space where it's like, oh, there's a little relief.

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:01Dax Shepard?

  And you just try to hold in that exact same spot and then that goes away and then you gotta re.

• 1:14:06Speaker 01

  Isn't it crazy? Aren't hangovers crazy that we have them and then we do that again?

• 1:14:13Dax Shepard?

  Sure. Yeah.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  Like.

• 1:14:15Dax Shepard?

  Price of admission.

• 1:14:16Speaker 01

  That's a powerful drug.

• 1:14:18Dax Shepard?

  That it makes your head split.

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  And, I mean, all kinds of things it does. All kinds of things.

• 1:14:25Dax Shepard?

  The most curious one is that it would make me crave a Filet-O-Fish sandwich at McDonald's.

• 1:14:30Speaker 01

  Very common.

• 1:14:31Dax Shepard?

  But that doesn't make any sense. I don't like fish.

• 1:14:35Speaker 01

  Wait, that's crazy you said that because I was gonna bring that up in the last fact check when we were talking about fish and how you hate fish and now Aaron hates fish because. But I was about to say, I can't believe you guys don't even like Filet-O-Fish, Filet-O-Fish sandwich.

• 1:14:49Dax Shepard?

  I can tell you when I was hungover, I loved them. I have never eaten one not hungover.

• 1:14:53Speaker 01

  Okay, well, I have a recommendation for you. There's a restaurant, Little Fish. It's in Melrose Hill. It's so good. They have a fish sandwich there that went like, they, they created it during COVID and it was out of their house at first and then it was this pop-up and now it's a restaurant. The fish sandwich, fried fish sandwich, is, is a Filet-O-Fish basically, but just much better ingredients.

• 1:15:19Dax Shepard?

  Presumably.

• 1:15:20Speaker 01

  It's so good.

• 1:15:22Dax Shepard?

  It is.

• 1:15:23Speaker 01

  Oh my.

• 1:15:23Dax Shepard?

  So crispy.

• 1:15:24Speaker 01

  God, it's crispy. The cheese is so good on it. It has some sort of sauce. Oh my god.

• 1:15:31Dax Shepard?

  Tartar type sauce, yeah.

• 1:15:32Speaker 01

  Type, tartar type. And, um, you should get it. I want you to get it.

• 1:15:38Dax Shepard?

  Maybe just the next time I feel terrible, it won't be hangover, hangover induced, but.

• 1:15:44Speaker 01

  You know, the Filet-O-Fish is a few people who I know who are really, really big into food. It's their favorite food.

• 1:15:51Dax Shepard?

  Oh, really?

• 1:15:52Speaker 01

  And it's like a very interesting thing.

• 1:15:54Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm. Where's this place located? I don't know what Melrose Hill is. What's that?

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

  Melrose Hill. Well, wait till you watch my video.

• 1:16:01Dax Shepard?

  Fish Town?

• 1:16:01Speaker 01

  My, my Rezzy video because it's all about Melrose Hill.

• 1:16:04Dax Shepard?

  Oh, it is?

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um.

• 1:16:06Dax Shepard?

  Presumably Melrose Boulevard, between what and what?

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  It's like Western and Melrose-ish.

• 1:16:12Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:16:12Speaker 01

  Where there's like arc out, I mean, I'm just wasting the video. You guys just gotta watch the vid.

• 1:16:17Dax Shepard?

  Okay. When's the vid drop?

• 1:16:19Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:16:20Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  But anyway, highly recommend that.

• 1:16:22Dax Shepard?

  What if I was driving down Western tonight with the kids?

• 1:16:25Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:16:26Dax Shepard?

  And we were approaching Melrose and I was like, I swerved down the side street. I'm like, I can't, I can't even find out about what's happening there. We gotta wait for the video, everyone.

• 1:16:33Speaker 01

  I'm not supposed to be here.

• 1:16:34Dax Shepard?

  I don't wanna know.

• 1:16:35Speaker 01

  I gotta wait. Okay, well, that sounds so fun, Vegas.

• 1:16:39Dax Shepard?

  I'm very, very excited about this trip.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:16:43Dax Shepard?

  With the errands.

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  You're gonna have a great time. I had a less, I don't even, I probably shouldn't tell it.

• 1:16:51Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, let's hear it.

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  No, no, because it's like not.

• 1:16:56Dax Shepard?

  It's not becoming of a young woman?

• 1:16:58Speaker 01

  It's, no, I was shameless about something.

• 1:17:03Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:17:04Speaker 01

  I was shameless about something.

• 1:17:06Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:17:06Speaker 01

  Um, but, and people will like this. It didn't work out.

• 1:17:10Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay, okay, okay.

• 1:17:13Speaker 01

  Um, I'm going to New York.

• 1:17:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:15Speaker 01

  And I, as if anyone listened to the Eric Good episode, which is an incredible episode, please listen to that episode. He's such an amazing person. Yes. Um, I stay at the Bowery, my favorite hotel.

• 1:17:29Dax Shepard?

  Yep.

• 1:17:29Speaker 01

  And, uh, I went to book my room.

• 1:17:33Dax Shepard?

  Uh-huh.

• 1:17:34Speaker 01

  And, um, two days were sold out in the middle.

• 1:17:39Dax Shepard?

  Oof, you'd have to go to another hotel.

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  Yes, but I was like, wait, what am I gonna do now? Like, do I go there, then go to a different one, then come back?

• 1:17:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  Do I just?

• 1:17:50Dax Shepard?

  Sleep in the lobby for a couple nights? Check your bags with the bellhop?

• 1:17:54Speaker 01

  And go to a different hotel this time?

• 1:17:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  Um, so this, you know, and then I was like, do I dare?

• 1:18:04Dax Shepard?

  Uh-huh, reach out to Eric?

• 1:18:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:18:06Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:18:07Speaker 01

  I did.

• 1:18:08Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:18:09Speaker 01

  Uh, his publicist. I reached out to his publicist and I said, I am so embarrassed to do this.

• 1:18:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  Especially so soon, but, you know, I'm gonna be in New York. I'm trying to book the Bowery and it's saying there is some days that are sold out.

• 1:18:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:27Speaker 01

  I don't know if there's any wiggle room here. Like, I don't know how true that is, you know? Like, are there special rooms? Do they keep? My guess is yes.

• 1:18:35Dax Shepard?

  Uh-huh, uh-huh.

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  Um, and, and I was like, I'm really sorry. Like, I, I know this is upsetting.

• 1:18:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:42Speaker 01

  Um, and she was like, of course, let me ask, uh, and no problem. Like, don't apologize. And I was like, oh my god. And then.

• 1:18:50Dax Shepard?

  He did offer on the air. You have that as a defense.

• 1:18:53Speaker 01

  He did. And he offered, which was so sweet, a friends and family rate, which I was not trying to do.

• 1:18:59Dax Shepard?

  You weren't trying to get a bargain. You just didn't wanna sleep in the lobby for a couple nights.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  I just wanna go to another hotel. I love hotel. So, um, so then this morning I wake up to like, there's like an email chain that has started. And it's like so, it's so nice. Like, um, the person, I don't know if I should have shot him out. His name is Jeremy.

• 1:19:22Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:19:23Speaker 01

  Um, he, he works with Eric.

• 1:19:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:25Speaker 01

  And he sent.

• 1:19:26Dax Shepard?

  He's a good guy.

• 1:19:27Speaker 01

  And a really good guy.

• 1:19:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, we love him.

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  He sent an email and, um, to the people there and was basically like, it's so nice. Like, our good friend needs a room.

• 1:19:37Dax Shepard?

  Mm.

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  Uh, make it happen, basically. Yes. It was so nice. And they were like, make it happen and give her the friends and family rate. Make sure it's a nice room. Like, just so kind.

• 1:19:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:50Speaker 01

  And then the guy responded back and was like, no.

• 1:19:56Dax Shepard?

  Can't do it.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  He was like, we're booked.

• 1:19:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, don't know what to tell you.

• 1:20:00Speaker 01

  And he was like, what, the first couple of days? And I was like, sure, yes, like, thank you all for trying. This is so, so, so sweet.

• 1:20:08Dax Shepard?

  I'm so embarrassed.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  And I clearly don't deserve love. And yes, I'll, yes, I'll take what, those first two nights and then I'll figure out the rest. Which is very upsetting.

• 1:20:19Dax Shepard?

  So a lot of times when you, you reach out and you ask for a little help, you end up in a worse position. I have found this to be the case because then they offer something as a consolation prize and then you feel obligated to take that. But you don't really want the consolation prize. I'm not saying that's the case you're in, but sometimes I am in that situation.

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:20:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:37Speaker 01

  And then you're just like, forget it.

• 1:20:39Dax Shepard?

  I shouldn't have done this, this, now I'm, yeah.

• 1:20:41Speaker 01

  Well, that did happen recent, that's not the case here, but that did happen to me. I was ordering an umbrella for my patio.

• 1:20:48Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:20:48Speaker 01

  And I ordered it and then they sent me an email very kindly and was like, just confirming for you that this is the stand you want for the umbrella because that stand doesn't actually go with this umbrella. But maybe you're buying it for another, and I was like, no, thank you, thank you.

• 1:21:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:06Speaker 01

  That was so nice for you to catch and yeah, yes, can I do the one that's the right one or whatever? They're like, yes, and then they were like, oh, it's sold out. But we have this other one and it's more expensive, but we'll give you a discount. I was like, that's so nice, yes. And then they're like, oh, that's sold out too. You know, and then I was like, and then I just had to be like, thank you so much, I'm gonna press pause on this whole thing, I'm not gonna get it. And I felt bad because they had done so much back and forth. They were really trying to be like a good business. Yeah, and they were, but like, I was done with it.

• 1:21:41Dax Shepard?

  I had to cancel something recently. I ordered another Hi-Factor 2000 for this house.

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:21:48Dax Shepard?

  And all of a sudden, five weeks has gone by, I'm like, where is my Hi-Factor?

• 1:21:51Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:21:51Dax Shepard?

  And then I emailed them, hey, what's, does this get lost?

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  For people who don't remember, it's the thing that zaps.

• 1:21:57Dax Shepard?

  It's best that they don't, that I don't actually.

• 1:21:59Speaker 01

  It's the thing that zaps. Dax is hypoplasia.

• 1:22:02Dax Shepard?

  And I am dying right now because there's like two things I want to zap.

• 1:22:04Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:22:05Dax Shepard?

  And it's driving me insane. I like, almost want to fly to Nashville.

• 1:22:08Speaker 01

  Which ones?

• 1:22:09Dax Shepard?

  Uh, I, just a little bump here I don't like and then a little bump over here I'm not enjoying. And at any rate, so they're like, no, it's backordered, but mind you, when I ordered it, it said in stock, right? So then I'm like, okay, well, now I want to find, is there another place I can get it?

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:22:26Dax Shepard?

  So I find another place.

• 1:22:27Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:22:28Dax Shepard?

  But I don't know, I want to order a second one if the other one is gonna come. So then I sent an email and said, and I, this is the term, this is the language I use. I said, if it's okay, I would like to initiate a refund.

• 1:22:38Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:22:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. I have found the product from another vendor, I said. I think I'm maybe trying to sound like a doctor because I think you have to be a doctor to have this.

• 1:22:49Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:22:50Dax Shepard?

  You know what I'm saying? So I'm trying.

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  You shouldn't have said, if it's okay, that feels, that feels layman's.

• 1:22:55Dax Shepard?

  That's true, or just they would be more mad.

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they would be entitled to be mad and I was.

• 1:23:01Speaker 01

  They'll say, I have an M.D.

• 1:23:03Dax Shepard?

  It's okay, I would like to initiate a refund. I have found another vendor that can get it here quicker. And so I have, I have received a refund from that and I've ordered another one, but now I'm prepared for that one. To probably take five weeks as well. And then I'll be like, I should have just stayed the course. Shortcuts are always the fastest way to the back of the line, I've been told.

• 1:23:22Speaker 01

  Uh huh, and I've been told, um, there's no short.

• 1:23:27Dax Shepard?

  Oh boy, you can't even get that out. That's how little you believe in.

• 1:23:31Speaker 01

  I believe in it so much.

• 1:23:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  I've been told there's no shortcuts to anywhere worth going.

• 1:23:35Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh, that's also good.

• 1:23:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:38Speaker 01

  It's really good, it was on, it was on a necklace.

• 1:23:41Dax Shepard?

  Oh, it was on a necklace, that's a lot of words for a necklace.

• 1:23:44Speaker 01

  It was on a compass necklace from Kohl's that Callie had in high school. And I loved it so much, she got me one.

• 1:23:50Dax Shepard?

  I recall this story.

• 1:23:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:52Speaker 01

  It's a pretty important story. That's a really important story to our friendship. You know, Callie used to be so, oh, she's still.

• 1:24:00Dax Shepard?

  Oh my gosh, she used to be so nice and thoughtful.

• 1:24:03Speaker 01

  I was gonna say that.

• 1:24:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:04Speaker 01

  She really did though, at the beginning of our friendship, she was making up for a tough beginning. If you remember, she didn't save me a seat and like, it was horrible.

• 1:24:14Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:24:14Speaker 01

  And I was really vulnerable, I asked her to save me a seat and then I get to class and then she didn't save me a seat. And it was really bad.

• 1:24:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:22Speaker 01

  Um, but once we got through that, um, she used to bring me treats all the time. She used to bring me Entenmann's donuts, the chocolate ones with the crumbles.

• 1:24:32Dax Shepard?

  And there's like wax over the chocolate too?

• 1:24:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, they would, they had different kinds, they had a waxy chocolate one, they had a, um, regular, ew. And then they had a chocolate one. That had little, it was a cake donut.

• 1:24:49Dax Shepard?

  Oh, right, right, I know this one.

• 1:24:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it had crumbly's on top.

• 1:24:52Dax Shepard?

  That was your favorite, I like the wax chocolate covered one.

• 1:24:55Speaker 01

  Regular wax or did you like that it was chocolate inside?

• 1:24:58Dax Shepard?

  No, no, it was a vanilla with chocolate wrapping, like the Hostess ones that I loved.

• 1:25:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, those are.

• 1:25:04Dax Shepard?

  The Hostess ones didn't have as much wax on them as the Entenmann's. I love Entenmann's, it makes me think of my Papa Bob and Grandma immediately. They constantly were chowing down on an Entenmann's coffee cake.

• 1:25:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:14Dax Shepard?

  Grandparents fucking love coffee cake.

• 1:25:16Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:25:17Dax Shepard?

  It still has never.

• 1:25:19Speaker 01

  Got you.

• 1:25:19Dax Shepard?

  Got me.

• 1:25:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:21Dax Shepard?

  It feels very dry.

• 1:25:22Speaker 01

  I agree, I was in New York with friends who have good taste that are gonna come up later. And, um, they recommended I get a coff- we went to Zabar's after and they were like, have you had the coffee cake? Like, you need to get it. And I was like, ooh, I was lying, like, I wasn't excited about the coffee cake. I didn't get it though.

• 1:25:39Dax Shepard?

  You didn't, okay, yeah, it feels the sand consistency a little bit.

• 1:25:44Speaker 01

  It looks like sand.

• 1:25:45Dax Shepard?

  It is sand, that's me, that's the thing, it's just made of sand and cinnamon flavor.

• 1:25:50Speaker 01

  Listen, feel free to send us some coffee cakes.

• 1:25:53Dax Shepard?

  Weekly's prepared a stew.

• 1:25:56Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:25:57Dax Shepard?

  He started on a stew yesterday on a pot roast.

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:26:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and that's what we're eating for dinner tonight.

• 1:26:03Speaker 01

  What do you mean, he started yesterday?

• 1:26:05Dax Shepard?

  He started it yesterday and then he said it'd be ready at 5:30 and then he, he put a fork in it and it didn't crumble. And he said, it's not ready. And then it should be ready at 6:30, then 6:30 rolled around and he put a fork in it and he's like, it's not there. So then we ordered Indian food, not to trigger you, um, but we did and it was so delicious. And then he put his fork in it right after we finished the Indian food and the whole thing crumbled. He goes, well, now it's perfect. So then he just, that's fine.

• 1:26:30Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:26:31Dax Shepard?

  We're, can't, no more heat.

• 1:26:33Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:26:34Dax Shepard?

  Goes in the fridge and then it'll get warmed up tonight, we'll have a nice, nice pot roast.

• 1:26:38Speaker 01

  Well, I'm excited to hear how that goes, the end of that story.

• 1:26:41Dax Shepard?

  Remember that, the, and, and by the way, that just, um, for anyone that listened to the last fact check, he, he told on himself and he admitted that his wife said Aaron loves cooking and he said, no, I don't.

• 1:26:53Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:26:53Dax Shepard?

  And then he left that fact check and he called Ruthie and he said, I, I admitted on the fact check that I had done this. And she said, well, if you recall, it was harsher than that. It was, you said, I hate cooking.

• 1:27:04Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:27:06Dax Shepard?

  It was even worse than I remember.

• 1:27:07Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I hate cooking, what a, what a strange, strange. You, you too.

• 1:27:16Dax Shepard?

  I know, there's something wrong with us.

• 1:27:19Speaker 01

  But he acknowledged it publicly.

• 1:27:21Dax Shepard?

  That's all you can ask for.

• 1:27:23Speaker 01

  It's, well, it's something to ask.

• 1:27:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's an improvement.

• 1:27:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's better than nothing.

• 1:27:28Dax Shepard?

  Than just sticking with it. I think a lot of guys just, they stick with whatever dumb thing they did.

• 1:27:33Speaker 01

  And then they can't cook ever again, even though it's their favorite activity.

• 1:27:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and they want to, and they remember, they enjoy cooking for others.

• 1:27:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then like, you know, the wife's out of town and then they get something stuck up their butt, obviously. And then the wife comes back into town and they're like, it smells like, it smells like pot roast in here, did you order it?

• 1:27:50Dax Shepard?

  And so. Where do you order a pot roast from, hon? That's what they would ask.

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  Oh, uh, I gotta.

• 1:27:55Dax Shepard?

  Sears.

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  I don't think they have that.

• 1:27:58Dax Shepard?

  Tool department, that's why you've never seen it, it's made by craftsmen.

• 1:28:01Speaker 01

  Okay, well, I see there's a pot on the table.

• 1:28:04Dax Shepard?

  Comes with a pot, that's a Craftsman brand pot.

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:28:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:08Speaker 01

  I'm doing, I would like to talk about a divorce.

• 1:28:11Dax Shepard?

  Well, okay.

• 1:28:12Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:28:12Dax Shepard?

  I went to an ears, nose and throat doctor.

• 1:28:15Speaker 01

  What happened?

• 1:28:16Dax Shepard?

  Well, I guess the headline is I don't have a deviated septum or anything.

• 1:28:21Speaker 01

  Uh oh.

• 1:28:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, which of course I wanted.

• 1:28:23Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:28:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  I'm sorry.

• 1:28:25Dax Shepard?

  And then I'm going to now do the sleep test where you wear a thing on your finger.

• 1:28:29Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:28:29Dax Shepard?

  I think I'll start that tonight, it's supposed to have arrived.

• 1:28:31Speaker 01

  What does it do?

• 1:28:32Dax Shepard?

  It tells you if you have sleep apnea or whatever, measures how many times you wake up, all that kind of stuff.

• 1:28:36Speaker 01

  Or a ring or something?

• 1:28:37Dax Shepard?

  But I think it's a little more, it's a, I haven't seen it yet, but apparently it's like a full sleeve that goes over your finger.

• 1:28:43Speaker 01

  It's medical grade.

• 1:28:44Dax Shepard?

  And it's Bluetooth and it communicates with your phone.

• 1:28:46Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:28:47Dax Shepard?

  So I'm excited about that. Um, I'm excited to get a terrible score, which is a weird feeling. Well, no, I want it confirmed.

• 1:28:55Speaker 01

  You want validation.

• 1:28:55Dax Shepard?

  Yes, I want, I want like, uh, data to support this experience I'm having.

• 1:29:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:29:01Dax Shepard?

  But the experience itself was I went and, um, the doctor didn't come in the room for an hour.

• 1:29:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, this happens.

• 1:29:07Dax Shepard?

  I know.

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  It's, it's upsetting, was this person recommended?

• 1:29:11Dax Shepard?

  Yes, by my primary care.

• 1:29:13Speaker 01

  Okay, great.

• 1:29:14Dax Shepard?

  Physician. He did though say, he said, oh, I know two great ones, one's older, but he's really, he's, you know, he's done a million.

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:29:22Dax Shepard?

  He's like, I'm not afraid of older.

• 1:29:23Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:29:23Dax Shepard?

  Let's go older. And then I'm sitting in the, the room by myself for an hour and then I have to pee.

• 1:29:28Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:29:29Dax Shepard?

  So then I, I gotta pee, I don't know what to do. I, I just, I, I walk out of the room.

• 1:29:33Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:29:34Dax Shepard?

  I walk down the hallway, I walk through the lobby, I go use the bathroom, I come back in, the door's locked to get back in the hallway. And the receptionist is, she's not having it, like, there's just too many people there, I think, right? She's purposely ignoring anyone that's in the thing. So now I'm like, this is hysterical, I can't get the receptionist's attention, it was an hour waiting there. And then all of a sudden I hear the doctor go, where's my patient? I've lost my patient. I can hear him, he's yelling. And I go, I, I'm here, I had to go to the bathroom and now I'm locked out of the hallway.

• 1:30:09Dax Shepard?

  This is how it starts. And he's like, oh, oh, oh, let him in. And then the receptionist pays attention for a minute. And then I go in there and it was the most bizarre interaction I've ever had with a doctor. Like, I don't even think he saw, like, could see me or something.

• 1:30:24Speaker 01

  Cause of his age?

• 1:30:24Dax Shepard?

  I just don't know. I think he's, I don't know. I don't know. But it was, it was a very bizarre experience. And he's poking around in my nose and he's talking about the, another patient the whole time. Can you believe that thing we saw with that patient at 10? Like, he's just talking about that.

• 1:30:39Speaker 01

  He was talking to somebody else there?

• 1:30:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, his, his helper. And, um, so he's not talking to me at all. And then when I start to engage, he just doesn't want anything to do with it.

• 1:30:49Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:30:49Dax Shepard?

  Then he fills my nose with all this numbing cream. And then I sit for another like 20 minutes. And I'm like, Jesus Christ, man, I didn't know I was gonna be gone for three hours. I had other stuff. And then they take me to another room and he crams a camera way down.

• 1:31:02Speaker 01

  Ow, could you feel it?

• 1:31:03Dax Shepard?

  Yes, he's like, ah, this, this should have gotten rid of your gag reflex. All right, now, let me put this in. It was, ah, all right, whichever patient was, was good, could handle this. So that was, I got a compliment.

• 1:31:14Speaker 01

  That's good.

• 1:31:14Dax Shepard?

  That was really nice.

• 1:31:17Dax Shepard?

  All to say, it was a very unsatisfactory experience, but I got the referral for the sleep study, which I guess is all I needed, cause I didn't have a deviated septum. And now the next, only thing left is to get the sleep site. But then I got a message on my voicemail two days later. It was like, hi, I'm calling from such and such doctor and we'd like to schedule you for an ear test, hearing test. And I'm like, I will never come back there. Like, I would, I would never, like, you guys know, oh, I gotta add to, the fucking, the office was dirty. Like, I'm looking at, I'm in the room with the camera and they've got some computer equipment. Clearly, they've upgraded to the system, but instead of getting rid of the old equipment,

• 1:32:00Dax Shepard?

  there's all these keyboards just crammed in the bottom of this cart. It looked like when you're in high school and they bring the AV cart. There's just all the old shit they did, that's not fixed, that they're not gonna throw away.

• 1:32:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:12Dax Shepard?

  And I'm just kinda looking around, everything, shit stacked up everywhere. There's fucking keyboards hanging on a thing, cords everywhere. I'm just like, I don't wanna go back there for anything.

• 1:32:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:23Dax Shepard?

  Ever.

• 1:32:23Speaker 01

  Oh, cut this, was that in Beverly Hills?

• 1:32:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm sure the guy was a legend. Yeah, it was, it was crazy how dirty and fucking, how much pack wrapped shit was all over these different offices. And the notion that I'm gonna come back for a hearing test was so I can sit in that room for an hour and then I can, yeah.

• 1:32:41Speaker 01

  Okay, this is funny. This room, so when I first moved here, and this is definitely privilege, right? Like, I understand.

• 1:32:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, I'm lucky I can go see someone, let me say that.

• 1:32:50Speaker 01

  Oh, right.

• 1:32:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm totally lucky I get to go see you.

• 1:32:54Speaker 01

  When, when I grew up, I obviously had doctors and stuff and I grew up in the suburbs. So I don't know, I just went to the doctor, they all kinda seemed the same to me, nice, I guess. In retrospect, now, I'm like, oh, those are nice? I thought that was, that was standard, right?

• 1:33:14Dax Shepard?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:33:14Speaker 01

  And then.

• 1:33:15Dax Shepard?

  Same with my small town, like, when you went to the doctor, they were nice to you.

• 1:33:18Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean, like, it's not dirty.

• 1:33:20Dax Shepard?

  Oh, right, yeah, yeah, same, like, it was a pretty new facility in my small town, yeah.

• 1:33:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, just like, the chairs look nice or whatever. Anyway, when I remember when I first moved to LA, I was like, oh my God. Everything, all the doctor's offices look like gru- grungy.

• 1:33:40Dax Shepard?

  Sure, like, there's diseases all over everything, yeah.

• 1:33:42Speaker 01

  Yes, and then I was like, oh, it's probably cause I'm not going to nice ones. And then I started going to nice ones and it's the same. What's going on?

• 1:33:49Dax Shepard?

  It is weird that my small hometown had a much nicer setup than this really nice quote in nice.

• 1:33:56Speaker 01

  Okay, so are you gonna go to a different person to do a hearing test? Was, were they worried about you?

• 1:34:01Dax Shepard?

  No, I don't even need a fucking hearing test, my hearing's fine.

• 1:34:03Speaker 01

  But they think, yeah.

• 1:34:04Dax Shepard?

  Also, on the thing, Nate, like, you know, you're filling out a questionnaire, which I did. By the way, I got there like 20 minutes early to fill out. I knew there would be a lot of, that's another, I mean, if I can be airing grievances. It's like, I'm in the same fucking network, right? I go to the same, it's the same group. How could they not have, like, I don't understand how that hasn't been digitized in a way that like, you know my birthday, you have my insurance information. I've gone to all these doctors in this network and I gotta start from beginning. Tell me if anyone in your family's died, I can't, all of it is just waste.

• 1:34:37Speaker 01

  Cause it was a new place.

• 1:34:38Dax Shepard?

  It's waste for them, it's waste for me.

• 1:34:40Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:34:40Dax Shepard?

  It's just so inefficient, it's crazy. There's no way this couldn't be coordinated. So, yeah, in, in, in that paperwork, it's like, it was asking you questions about your hearing. Well, none of them would have alerted them to that I needed a hearing test.

• 1:34:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:34:56Dax Shepard?

  I have no complaints about my hearing.

• 1:34:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, do you think you're a little defensive because you were deaf when you were born?

• 1:35:01Dax Shepard?

  No, I don't think that's what's going on. Anyways, back to the person.

• 1:35:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:04Dax Shepard?

  And then I just thought, like, oh yeah, they're like a machine that's just like, yeah, now they can get another fee for checking my hearing when I had no complaints about my hearing. And then, yeah.

• 1:35:13Speaker 01

  Yeah?

• 1:35:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:13Speaker 01

  You gotta watch out.

• 1:35:14Dax Shepard?

  So, I was unsatisfied with that experience.

• 1:35:17Speaker 01

  Ooh, and so, okay.

• 1:35:17Dax Shepard?

  But thank, but what's lucky is, what would I have done if he was like, oh yeah, you have a deviated septum? Let's schedule a surgery. I think I would have to go like, nah. After meeting you and interacting with you.

• 1:35:30Speaker 01

  See?

• 1:35:30Dax Shepard?

  And then the, the fucking filth of your office and the, and your, your, your lack of, uh, punctuality. And, and here's the other thing. I understand that people get behind.

• 1:35:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:43Dax Shepard?

  Like, I, I actually, I wouldn't have even brought this up if the guy had said, hey, sorry, I'm an hour late.

• 1:35:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:35:49Dax Shepard?

  I'd have nothing to say to you right now. I, I wouldn't even even thought about it. It was like, but the notion that you're coming in an hour late, you don't even address that? And then you don't even really look me in the eyes and even talk to me at some point?

• 1:35:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree.

• 1:36:00Dax Shepard?

  I'm like, oh, I'm a part of, I'm on a fa- I'm in a factory.

• 1:36:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:04Dax Shepard?

  They're just, cha-ching, cha-ching, cha-ching, cha-ching.

• 1:36:06Speaker 01

  Okay, but this is why we're different, right? And we did just talk about this on an episode that will come up. Like, you're like, I guess I'd have to tell him, like, this place is a dump and I hate him. And I'm like, no, you could just say, just say like, okay, I'm gonna go home and think about it. Um, and I'll, I'll be in touch. And then you just aren't in touch.

• 1:36:25Dax Shepard?

  Well, funny enough, to be more specific about what we just talked about. I was saying, in the past, I would confront people about if they asked for something kind of that I thought was inappropriate. I would tell them like, hey, this isn't, you shouldn't really be asking me this, right? So, in the past, and I want to, I wanna call back and go like, no, I'm not gonna have a hearing test there because you're an hour late still, no one said sorry, and it was a terrible experience. You guys need to fucking clean the office. And why don't, why are you keeping all those keyboards? What do you think you're gonna do with those keyboards? Instead, I just didn't return the call and I'm never gonna return the call.

• 1:36:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:36:59Dax Shepard?

  So, I, cause I was saying, my new method is I just ignore stuff I don't like.

• 1:37:02Speaker 01

  That, of course, but I'm saying if you're in there and they're like, oh my God, you need surgery, let's get, no, no.

• 1:37:09Dax Shepard?

  I wouldn't go in there.

• 1:37:10Speaker 01

  The thing that you brought up, the scenario, and that he's like, up there and he's like, oh wow, you have a deviated septum, we need to do surgery.

• 1:37:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:18Speaker 01

  Then you say, okay, I would like to go and think about this and I'll be in touch. Not like, well, I'm not doing it here with you, sir.

• 1:37:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm gonna go see the other guy, should've, that, and I'm gonna tell my GP to stop recommend, I did cross my mind to tell him to stop recommending.

• 1:37:32Speaker 01

  I was gonna say that of all things to do, you could just be like, hey, it's not an issue, but I am, I do just wanna let you know that that was not a good experience and like, maybe.

• 1:37:43Dax Shepard?

  Recommend the other guy.

• 1:37:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, just keep it to the other guy.

• 1:37:45Speaker 01

  But now you need to see the other guy to make sure he's worth the recommendation.

• 1:37:48Dax Shepard?

  Hope he's worse. I'm like, oh, I actually got the right guy.

• 1:37:51Speaker 01

  He could be.

• 1:37:52Dax Shepard?

  But, well, great, luckily, I don't need an, an operation. The other terrible truth is, he might be the best at the operation.

• 1:37:58Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:37:59Dax Shepard?

  This is to get into bedside manner, right? And then who gets sued and who doesn't?

• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:38:02Dax Shepard?

  So maybe he's still the best.

• 1:38:03Speaker 01

  Okay, so the sleep thing, okay, so you're gonna put, monitor that? And then is there, do you have to go to a facility and sleep there one night and?

• 1:38:12Dax Shepard?

  That's the old way. And that would have been preventative for me, because like, I can't, barely sleep in my own ideal situation. I can't imagine, I've heard, I had friends and they hook you up to so many cables and shit. And I roll around a lot, yeah. And I'm, I'm on the move when I go to sleep, man.

• 1:38:28Speaker 01

  How many pillows do you sleep on?

• 1:38:30Dax Shepard?

  I bet I burn six, seven hundred calories a night, fucking flopping around all night.

• 1:38:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:35Dax Shepard?

  So, no, I, well, what I'm hoping and thinking will happen is if, you know, they conclude I have sleep apnea and I need a device. I'm, I'm praying that this company I'm dealing with for the device will just supply it and I have them dial it in. I, I hope, like, I don't, they don't even suggest I gotta go back to that guy.

• 1:38:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:56Speaker 01

  Don't even whisper that.

• 1:38:57Dax Shepard?

  I'll just fucking, I'll be like, I'm buying one my own, I'll read the manual, have chat, tell me how that works.

• 1:39:01Speaker 01

  I'm gonna go to my hyperplasia guy, my high, what's it called?

• 1:39:05Dax Shepard?

  Hi-Fector.

• 1:39:06Speaker 01

  My Hi-Fector guy, I got a guy.

• 1:39:10Dax Shepard?

  Oh, the one great thing, I shouldn't, I should have said this.

• 1:39:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:39:14Dax Shepard?

  Had a great nurse before the man eventually came in. And I told her I had a Hi-Fector. And she said, oh, I know why. She said that she missed working for a dermatologist, that she had worked for a dermatologist for a lot of years. And I said, oh wow, um, so you worked at a dermatologist forever? And she goes, yeah, I go, did you ever use the Hi-Fector 2000? Did you ever just use it? And she goes, the entire time I worked there, I wanted to. And I go, why didn't you? She goes, I, I didn't wanna get in trouble. She goes, and there's one here in one of the offices and I think about using it all the time. And I'm like, go for it.

• 1:39:48Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:39:48Dax Shepard?

  I have one and it's awesome and I'm having so much fun zapping everything off my body.

• 1:39:53Speaker 01

  Listen, no.

• 1:39:53Dax Shepard?

  And she was like, she got it, she got it. She's been coveting it, just like I did for years.

• 1:39:59Speaker 01

  She's not gonna do it, and this is a major ding ding ding too.

• 1:40:03Dax Shepard?

  Do you think I could get sued by a Hi-Fector?

• 1:40:04Speaker 01

  I don't know, I'm scared.

• 1:40:06Dax Shepard?

  They might call and say like, you gotta stop talking about this device. Well, that like, he shows up at my house.

• 1:40:13Speaker 01

  Seizing your.

• 1:40:14Dax Shepard?

  Sir, we understand you have a medical device in here and we also understand you're not a doctor.

• 1:40:19Speaker 01

  We have it in writing, you initiated a refund.

• 1:40:23Dax Shepard?

  Such a good device. They should actually have me as an ambassador or a spokesperson for it. It's made by Conmed.

• 1:40:29Speaker 01

  Okay, stop, stop, tell us, stop.

• 1:40:32Dax Shepard?

  It's such a good instrument.

• 1:40:34Speaker 01

  Okay, I, this is in a, a really, really, really big ding ding ding for facts, for.

• 1:40:41Speaker 01

  Next episode.

• 1:40:43Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:40:43Speaker 01

  But it is, I'm a little just, I'm, I don't care.

• 1:40:47Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:40:48Speaker 01

  Okay, it's for Adam Grant.

• 1:40:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  And we get in a conversation about cheating and employees and, and if those are connected, if people cheat in the office.

• 1:40:59Dax Shepard?

  Affairs.

• 1:41:00Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:41:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:01Speaker 01

  Are they more likely to cheat or be dishonest in the office if they've cheated on their partners?

• 1:41:07Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:41:07Speaker 01

  And we both are, we're both like, we don't think that's the case.

• 1:41:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, the group you're using was on a very specific, whatever, you'll hear that.

• 1:41:15Speaker 01

  You'll hear it, listen to the episode. But this is funny because this nurse has such high integrity, like, she's like, I want to so bad and I'm not gonna.

• 1:41:26Dax Shepard?

  She probably has never cheated.

• 1:41:27Speaker 01

  And she's probably never cheated, and now we know.

• 1:41:30Dax Shepard?

  Well, maybe he's right, and maybe when we found out, he's right. What if I followed it up? I go, you've never used it? And she goes, no. I go, have you ever cheated? She was like, what? What the hell does that have to do with me wanting to burn off this skin tag I have?

• 1:41:43Speaker 01

  Um, alright.

• 1:41:46Dax Shepard?

  You wanna do some facts?

• 1:41:46Speaker 01

  Let's do some facts.

• 1:41:49Speaker 04

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

• 1:41:56Dax Shepard?

  We get support by Peloton. You know that feeling when you're spiraling over a problem and you just can't figure it out? When that happens to me, I need a change of pace, and I've found that running is the best way. It takes my brain out of the driver's seat and I come back with a fresh perspective. Running can be freeing and cathartic, and Peloton helps you feel all of that. And now that feeling fits wherever you need it with the new Peloton Tread Flex. It's movable and foldable, designed to fit your life. So next time you feel stuck, you can go for a run literally anywhere, whether that's in your office, living room, or even the attic. Plus, they have classes with expert instructors and programs to meet you at any level and keep you moving.

• 1:42:38Dax Shepard?

  Let yourself run. Explore the new Peloton Tread Flex at onepeloton.com.

• 1:42:50Speaker 01

  Okay, Jared Diamond, my goodness gracious.

• 1:42:54Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:56Speaker 01

  I can't believe he was about to turn 89 the next day.

• 1:43:01Dax Shepard?

  Yes, he's definitely now 89.

• 1:43:03Speaker 01

  He's 89.

• 1:43:04Dax Shepard?

  Since we recorded it.

• 1:43:05Speaker 01

  And he's so, he's still so smart, like.

• 1:43:09Dax Shepard?

  Yep.

• 1:43:10Speaker 01

  Part of that is, it is a.

• 1:43:12Dax Shepard?

  Use it or you lose it?

• 1:43:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:43:15Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:43:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. I mean, I'm inclined to think that as well. Although I do know a couple of people that were brilliant and they used it.

• 1:43:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:22Dax Shepard?

  So that happens too.

• 1:43:24Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:43:24Dax Shepard?

  But it is so impressive

• 1:43:27Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:43:28Dax Shepard?

  that at 89, he's as articulate as he is and can roll out his whole book in the manner that he can.

• 1:43:34Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:43:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it definitely made me think of David Attenborough.

• 1:43:38Speaker 01

  Right, and I, and I have thought a lot about this, like, leadership and what makes a good leader and all the factors, a lot, since we interviewed him.

• 1:43:48Dax Shepard?

  What is cute is he has so much he could be proud of or impressed with.

• 1:43:55Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:43:56Dax Shepard?

  And what did he talk, all, like, when we weren't recording?

• 1:43:59Speaker 01

  Gallbladder.

• 1:44:00Dax Shepard?

  Well, that was his expertise early on.

• 1:44:02Speaker 01

  Ornithology.

• 1:44:03Dax Shepard?

  Well, ornithology, but his children.

• 1:44:06Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:44:07Dax Shepard?

  It's like, it's so cute that no matter what someone does.

• 1:44:11Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:44:11Dax Shepard?

  Right? He's just like, he's so into his kids' lives and what they're up to.

• 1:44:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:16Dax Shepard?

  It's very sweet.

• 1:44:17Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:44:18Dax Shepard?

  And yes, and when we walked out, because I walked him out and waited for his Uber,

• 1:44:23Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:44:24Dax Shepard?

  a little bird shot up into our oak tree, and he immediately was like, oh, that's such and such, such and such.

• 1:44:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:30Dax Shepard?

  And normally they're this, and they're blah, blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, it's, that's why, like, I can't comprehend doing that. I can do it with cars, so I guess I.

• 1:44:39Speaker 01

  So you can comprehend.

• 1:44:40Dax Shepard?

  I can in that way.

• 1:44:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:44:42Dax Shepard?

  But birds don't.

• 1:44:44Speaker 01

  They don't do it for you.

• 1:44:44Dax Shepard?

  Look that distinct to me, right?

• 1:44:46Speaker 01

  And people would say that about cars.

• 1:44:48Dax Shepard?

  They would, yeah. They absolutely would.

• 1:44:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:50Dax Shepard?

  I think I told you, that was, ding ding ding, that was one of the examples that in this archaeology class I had, they were talking about Moche art in Peru and how they can tell what year the pot is made.

• 1:45:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:04Dax Shepard?

  Based on how the pattern changed in art, like, it evolved. And of course, when you're, to the layperson, these things all look identical. And, and, and I'm almost suspicious of like, you're telling me you guys have figured out that this one came 1,000 years after this one? And then the professor said, now, there are people in this room that could look at taillights of an impala and tell you what year it is. And I was like, oh, yeah, I, I can do that.

• 1:45:29Speaker 01

  The F1 drivers can hear the sound and know what part, that's real, like.

• 1:45:34Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:45:34Speaker 01

  That's why I, I know, not to like be controversial, but I know you and other people don't believe in Psalms. And like, to me, that's unfair.

• 1:45:44Dax Shepard?

  What are Psalms?

• 1:45:44Speaker 01

  Psalmolae.

• 1:45:45Dax Shepard?

  Oh, Psalmolae.

• 1:45:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's like, that's unfair to them because they can do that. They can taste it and they can know the region and just because like, maybe you, generally you, who's, who doesn't think this is real, can't do that or don't taste a difference and say, who cares? It's what they know.

• 1:46:08Dax Shepard?

  I don't dispute that they know it.

• 1:46:11Speaker 01

  Okay, some people do think it's all made up.

• 1:46:14Dax Shepard?

  Well, there have been some pretty bad blind tests that they've failed.

• 1:46:19Speaker 01

  Some people, yeah.

• 1:46:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, some, some well-knowns have failed some cheap wine tests, so that's, that's one issue.

• 1:46:25Speaker 01

  Sure, like.

• 1:46:26Dax Shepard?

  My bigger issue is like, this one's better and more valuable than that one. So I'm already, the whole endeavor, I, I kind of bristle at.

• 1:46:35Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:46:37Dax Shepard?

  Because I think it's, it's the same reason someone decided one of these baseball cards is worth $10 million and it's printed on paper and it's identical to the other one, and the other one's signed as well, but that, that one is worth $10 million. It's, you decided it's worth $10 million.

• 1:46:53Speaker 01

  Well, depending on who's in it, how rare they are, like, it, it, it's, I mean, people would say that about classic cars. Like, okay, this one happens to be worth so much money, okay, I don't see that much of a difference between this and this, like.

• 1:47:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:09Speaker 01

  You know, it's all interesting. Everyone has their own niche, and I guess I'm just saying, it's cool to have a niche.

• 1:47:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:16Speaker 01

  And it, and we're not, and I don't want to disrespect any of the niches.

• 1:47:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:22Speaker 01

  But yeah, anyway, ornithology.

• 1:47:23Dax Shepard?

  It triggers my class warfare stuff.

• 1:47:26Speaker 01

  I know, so I wish you could just understand that.

• 1:47:28Dax Shepard?

  A million dollar bottle of wine, like, you guys are jerking each other off, like, you're gonna get drunk the same? Does it taste better?

• 1:47:35Speaker 01

  The car's gonna get you from A to B the same.

• 1:47:39Dax Shepard?

  But can it get you to A to a quarter mile in nine seconds? That's an objective, quantifiable thing.

• 1:47:46Speaker 01

  Can the wine taste a lot better? Yes. Also, the more you drink it.

• 1:47:51Dax Shepard?

  Taste is very subjective. Like, I think, I think a Big Mac's better than a $100 piece of fish.

• 1:48:00Speaker 01

  Okay, but the, the, if you drink wine, as I do, and I do not claim to be, I don't, I'm not a Psalm.

• 1:48:08Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:48:09Speaker 01

  And I, I would not be able to tell the difference between a million dollar bottle of wine and a $1,000 bottle of wine.

• 1:48:14Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:48:15Speaker 01

  Is there, is there a million dollar bottle of wine?

• 1:48:18Dax Shepard?

  Let's ask what the most expensive bottle of wine that's ever been auctioned. I'm gonna ask it right now. What's the most expensive bottle of wine ever to be purchased? This record appears to have changed in 2026. A 750 milliliter bottle of 1945 Domain dalla Romane Conte, DRC, Romane Conte, sold for $812,500.

• 1:48:43Speaker 01

  One bottle. Wow. Yeah.

• 1:48:47Dax Shepard?

  I mean, what do you think about that?

• 1:48:49Speaker 01

  Um, what do I think about it?

• 1:48:51Dax Shepard?

  Does that seem?

• 1:48:53Speaker 01

  I think anything, when you're getting to this level and it's an item, is like, it's crazy and I, I, I can wrap my head around if that's your world.

• 1:49:06Dax Shepard?

  Uh-huh. I mean, it's interesting, though, I'll say this. One thing that's really unique about it is that the million dollar painting can be enjoyed.

• 1:49:14Speaker 01

  I know it, yes, I agree with you.

• 1:49:15Dax Shepard?

  The million dollar car can be enjoyed. This, you just, you have to be getting that much pleasure out of knowing you, you own something rare.

• 1:49:22Speaker 01

  I, I agree with you.

• 1:49:24Dax Shepard?

  You can't experience it or it's gone.

• 1:49:25Speaker 01

  I know. I agree with you on that.

• 1:49:27Dax Shepard?

  Okay, that's, thank God, that's great.

• 1:49:29Speaker 01

  But that's different to me than like, being in the wine world and knowing what things are from and stuff like that. But like, yes, owning million dollar bottles of wine is.

• 1:49:37Dax Shepard?

  Seems a little crazy.

• 1:49:38Speaker 01

  To me.

• 1:49:39Dax Shepard?

  To me, you've run out of things to buy.

• 1:49:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:41Dax Shepard?

  And you're like.

• 1:49:42Speaker 01

  It wouldn't be, I probably never get.

• 1:49:44Dax Shepard?

  Even these crazy watches, you can wear them.

• 1:49:46Speaker 01

  Of course, yeah.

• 1:49:48Dax Shepard?

  Uh, here's one. There are some weird exceptions. For example, a magnum of Champagne Avenue Foch Fauque two seven, twenty seventeen reportedly sold for two point five million. But that transaction, that transaction included an N F T digital artwork.

• 1:50:06Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:50:07Dax Shepard?

  Another fake, another fake thing, right? It's fake.

• 1:50:10Speaker 01

  Now, do you, so they're not drinking it, right?

• 1:50:14Dax Shepard?

  No, the N F T, I don't think you can.

• 1:50:16Speaker 01

  No, not the N F T. No, the million, the eight hundred and twelve.

• 1:50:20Dax Shepard?

  Right, there's no way someone's, I hope they drink it before they die.

• 1:50:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, or maybe they pa, they're probably gonna pass it down.

• 1:50:28Dax Shepard?

  It'll probably get sold at another auction at some point for two million dollars.

• 1:50:31Speaker 01

  I.

• 1:50:32Dax Shepard?

  It's just to tell people I have this thing. You gotta admit, that's a little bit.

• 1:50:36Speaker 01

  I know. I agree with you on that. Okay. Now, what do, but, but, I, I was saying, as someone who does drink wine, I, I can taste the difference between a twelve dollar bottle.

• 1:50:48Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:50:49Speaker 01

  And a, uh, fifty dollar bottle. And I really can, because sometimes I'm, I'll be at parties and like, all, you know, pour, and I'm like, I can't drink it.

• 1:50:58Dax Shepard?

  Sure, but I, I, I definitely think there's gotta be some stratas we'd agree upon. So yes, uh, I bet you can tell the difference between an eight dollar box of wine and a hundred and fifty dollar bottle of wine.

• 1:51:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can.

• 1:51:11Dax Shepard?

  But I would bet a considerable amount of money that you can't tell the difference between a hundred and fifty bottle dollar, a hundred and fifty dollar bottle of wine and a twenty five hundred dollar bottle of wine. That I would put a good chunk of money on.

• 1:51:22Speaker 01

  Could not, um, I do think though, it's all relative, like, some people can't really care, they don't care or taste the difference between twelve dollar.

• 1:51:30Dax Shepard?

  I liked Ernest Gallo when I was drinking wine sometimes. I would get that big fucking jug at Save On for like six bucks. Pound that thing and drink it right out of the bottle.

• 1:51:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, great. I'm not a get, I'm not like, but I've got, snobbiness is like, you don't think you're gonna become a snob at something, and then once you get in the world, it happens.

• 1:51:53Dax Shepard?

  Snobbery follows.

• 1:51:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, the most expensive bottle of wine I think I've ever paid for

• 1:52:01Speaker 01

  was to be consumed in the moment. It was at a restaurant, it wasn't like to own and present, but I wanted it. Yeah, um, was recently, and I think it was like two fifty.

• 1:52:13Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow, okay.

• 1:52:13Speaker 01

  It was a lot.

• 1:52:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:15Speaker 01

  Shared.

• 1:52:17Dax Shepard?

  Okay, how many bottle, three and a half glasses in a bottle of wine?

• 1:52:20Speaker 01

  No, like, I would say like five.

• 1:52:22Dax Shepard?

  There's five?

• 1:52:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:24Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so fifty dollars a glass?

• 1:52:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:52:27Speaker 01

  I, it's a lot, I'm not saying it's not a lot. I have thought about that wine multiple times since I had it and my, my friend had it, and she too was like,

• 1:52:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:39Speaker 01

  This wine is so good, and.

• 1:52:45Dax Shepard?

  So I believe you a thousand percent, and I also believe in paying for experiences, cuz that's what you're gonna take with you.

• 1:52:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:52:50Dax Shepard?

  Right, so I, I, I agree. But would you also acknowledge that your, your brain does some stuff? When you know, like, I'm gonna spoil myself, this is obnoxious, but I've decided in this moment's worth it, this moment's special, I'm gonna go for it.

• 1:53:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:53:05Dax Shepard?

  There's a lot built around it. Yeah, yeah, okay.

• 1:53:07Speaker 01

  There is, I totally agree with you, but also, I'll buy wine from, shout out Silver Lake Wines, great wine shop.

• 1:53:14Dax Shepard?

  Let me just put it this way, it's the exact same bottle of wine, but it was twenty five dollars. I'm pretty certain you went and reflect back on it a lot.

• 1:53:21Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:53:21Dax Shepard?

  Even though it'd be good, it'd be, it'd be the same.

• 1:53:23Speaker 01

  The part is, this is what I'm trying to tell you.

• 1:53:26Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:53:27Speaker 01

  It couldn't be twenty five dollars.

• 1:53:29Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:53:30Speaker 01

  Cuz it is, it is too good, unless, it's, it's all relative, unless the cheapest bottle of wine is five cents.

• 1:53:37Dax Shepard?

  Well, we agree the price of grapes are the price of grapes.

• 1:53:40Speaker 01

  Well, it depends on where it's coming from, region, this is an Italian wine, and the year is rare.

• 1:53:47Dax Shepard?

  I know, just, but they don't, they put, they don't put grapes in some wine and then gold in other.

• 1:53:50Speaker 01

  No, no, I know, yeah, but the quality of the grapes, and when they harvest, and how they harvest, it's all.

• 1:53:56Dax Shepard?

  I'm sure they, they go up, you know, some, some percentage.

• 1:54:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:01Dax Shepard?

  If you grow them perfectly and you take all the time and all that. But just the base ingredients are the base ingredients of wine.

• 1:54:07Speaker 01

  Again, like a car.

• 1:54:08Dax Shepard?

  Well, not true.

• 1:54:09Speaker 01

  Well, the base ingredient.

• 1:54:10Dax Shepard?

  Carbon fiber disc brakes, are they metal, are they carbon fiber? Is the body aluminum?

• 1:54:16Speaker 01

  That has to do with this too, it's, uh, is it, is it in steel, is it in wood? I mean, there's, there are factors.

• 1:54:23Dax Shepard?

  There are factors.

• 1:54:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. They, they go up, um, by orders of magnitude in certain spaces. Uh, luxury brands tend to, they get an order of magnitude of markup.

• 1:54:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:54:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:36Speaker 01

  But.

• 1:54:37Dax Shepard?

  And by the way, I'm delighted, I sign, I co-sign on your decision to do that.

• 1:54:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:42Dax Shepard?

  And it's great that you reflect on it.

• 1:54:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I've also, what I was gonna say is, I buy wine from Silver Lake Wine, shout out, great wine store in L A, great to buy from them. And there's this, I really like Barolo wines.

• 1:54:56Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:54:57Speaker 01

  That's my preferred wine. It's not that easy to find, so I will buy it if it's at Silver Lake Wines, I've bought many. And I don't know this cost from this cost, it's all in my cabinet. And I'm not.

• 1:55:16Dax Shepard?

  You don't remember what cost what.

• 1:55:17Speaker 01

  I don't remember what's what, and some are significantly more than others.

• 1:55:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:20Speaker 01

  So, but, there are times where I will have it, and I'm like, this is not good. Yeah, and.

• 1:55:27Dax Shepard?

  Wine also turns sometimes, right?

• 1:55:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:30Dax Shepard?

  Something's wrong with the cork, it can get.

• 1:55:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. And

• 1:55:35Speaker 01

  nothing, and I'll look and I'll be like, oh, that was one of the expensive ones.

• 1:55:39Dax Shepard?

  Uh, that happens.

• 1:55:40Speaker 01

  That happens, and I'm like, ew, I'm not buying that again, so it, it's not, there are.

• 1:55:45Dax Shepard?

  You won't completely fool yourself.

• 1:55:47Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:55:48Dax Shepard?

  You're like, this is like shit, then you look at it, but no, this is actually delicious, cuz it was.

• 1:55:51Speaker 01

  Exactly, I'm like, oh, yuck.

• 1:55:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:55:53Speaker 01

  Anyhow, okay, talking of, okay, back to the facts. Rare things, this is, this is, uh, Sim, and it's a ding ding ding. Shakespeare's most read, most popular play.

• 1:56:07Dax Shepard?

  I think number one has gotta be Romeo and Juliet.

• 1:56:10Speaker 01

  Yes, it doesn't, it just has top three.

• 1:56:13Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:56:13Speaker 01

  So that is in there, yep.

• 1:56:15Dax Shepard?

  I would say Romeo and Juliet, I'd say Hamlet.

• 1:56:17Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:56:18Dax Shepard?

  And then for my third, I would say King Lear.

• 1:56:21Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:56:22Dax Shepard?

  Damn it.

• 1:56:23Speaker 01

  You wanna try again?

• 1:56:24Dax Shepard?

  Midsummer's Night.

• 1:56:25Speaker 01

  Midsummer Night's Dream, yes.

• 1:56:26Dax Shepard?

  Midsummer Night's Dream.

• 1:56:27Speaker 01

  Um, I was in.

• 1:56:28Dax Shepard?

  I was almost out, though.

• 1:56:30Speaker 01

  Oh, you are?

• 1:56:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, how, how many other ones are there?

• 1:56:33Speaker 01

  Oh, he has so many.

• 1:56:34Dax Shepard?

  Oh, too, well, he said he wrote twenty two before he even wrote Hamlet, I guess.

• 1:56:37Speaker 01

  He, a very prolific man.

• 1:56:39Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:56:40Speaker 01

  Now, I was in Midsummer Night's Dream in college.

• 1:56:44Dax Shepard?

  Yes, you were.

• 1:56:45Speaker 01

  And I recently was watching, or I was on Instagram, and I was served, uh, Amy Poehler talking to Darcy, Carden, and friend of, both friends of our pod. And Amy was saying that she was a fairy in Midsummer Night's Dream.

• 1:57:07Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:57:09Speaker 01

  And I was a fairy in Midsummer Night's Dream.

• 1:57:12Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God, and you love her.

• 1:57:14Speaker 01

  And I love her.

• 1:57:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:16Speaker 01

  And so we have some shared D N A, we're both fairies.

• 1:57:21Dax Shepard?

  Talk about the next time you see her.

• 1:57:22Speaker 01

  So much to talk about, but that is.

• 1:57:24Dax Shepard?

  I wonder if you were the same fairy.

• 1:57:25Speaker 01

  No, she said she was, um, like, pea blossom.

• 1:57:29Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:57:30Speaker 01

  And I was mustard seed. Okay, so the fairies, um, are peas blossom, not pea blo, peas blossom, that's who she was. Cobweb.

• 1:57:40Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:57:41Speaker 01

  Uh, moth and mustard seed.

• 1:57:44Dax Shepard?

  So there's only four fairies?

• 1:57:45Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, they're very small parts.

• 1:57:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, very exclusive role.

• 1:57:49Speaker 01

  And small actors.

• 1:57:54Speaker 01

  Anyway, so I just love that, that we're both of the fairies.

• 1:57:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:59Dax Shepard?

  I was never in a play.

• 1:58:01Speaker 01

  In your life?

• 1:58:02Dax Shepard?

  I don't think, I'm trying to think. I don't think I was, I've ever been in a play.

• 1:58:07Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I also was.

• 1:58:09Dax Shepard?

  Is that true? I think so.

• 1:58:11Speaker 01

  Oh, there's still time.

• 1:58:13Dax Shepard?

  They made Broadway debut.

• 1:58:15Speaker 01

  I was also in Trojan.

• 1:58:16Dax Shepard?

  I was offered a Broadway play.

• 1:58:18Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:58:18Dax Shepard?

  Not too long ago, and I thought, do they, that's crazy they offered this to me.

• 1:58:21Speaker 01

  No, why would it be crazy?

• 1:58:23Dax Shepard?

  I don't know.

• 1:58:24Speaker 01

  Offered is a little crazy, I guess, but like.

• 1:58:27Dax Shepard?

  Well, I've never, I've never done theater, so, other, well, I've done comedy theater.

• 1:58:31Speaker 01

  Yes, you have, but it is different, but yes.

• 1:58:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:35Speaker 01

  Um, you've done sketches where you had to memorize stuff, so it's not like you only did it for.

• 1:58:39Dax Shepard?

  I've done a lot of stage work.

• 1:58:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:40Dax Shepard?

  I just have never been in a play.

• 1:58:43Speaker 01

  I was also in Trojan Women, it was Trojan Women.

• 1:58:46Dax Shepard?

  Pornographic.

• 1:58:47Speaker 01

  Trojan Women and Ifa Janaya at Alas.

• 1:58:51Dax Shepard?

  Pornographic.

• 1:58:51Speaker 01

  This is all great, yeah.

• 1:58:53Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:58:54Speaker 01

  I was her.

• 1:58:55Dax Shepard?

  Ifa Janaya?

• 1:58:56Speaker 01

  Uh-huh.

• 1:58:56Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:58:57Speaker 01

  She's, if you.

• 1:58:58Dax Shepard?

  Was she a temptress?

• 1:58:59Speaker 01

  Uh-uh, she's a kid.

• 1:59:02Speaker 01

  If you remember in The Odyssey.

• 1:59:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:05Speaker 01

  She's the kid that, um, is sacrificed, and that's why Helen's sister kills the husband.

• 1:59:15Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:59:16Speaker 01

  Because they sacrifice her.

• 1:59:19Dax Shepard?

  Sacrifice.

• 1:59:20Speaker 01

  I was sacrificed.

• 1:59:21Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:59:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:23Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:59:24Speaker 01

  That was a pretty big part.

• 1:59:26Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:59:27Speaker 01

  Um, that was cool. Uh, okay, so Hitler was almost in a life killing car accident.

• 1:59:35Dax Shepard?

  Nineteen thirty.

• 1:59:36Speaker 01

  And then also, you know that rumor, but it is a rumor, because I looked, that his mom wanted to get an abortion.

• 1:59:42Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I don't even know.

• 1:59:43Speaker 01

  Oh, that's like a common thing people say.

• 1:59:46Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:59:46Speaker 01

  It says there's no historical evidence of that.

• 1:59:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:49Speaker 01

  But it is a common thing people say. So then I was like, wow, he really like.

• 1:59:52Dax Shepard?

  I don't know how common abortions were in nineteen hundred Austria.

• 1:59:56Speaker 01

  She wanted to abort.

• 1:59:58Dax Shepard?

  Okay, well, so how would anyone know that?

• 2:00:01Speaker 01

  Well, it was illegal.

• 2:00:02Dax Shepard?

  Journal?

• 2:00:02Speaker 01

  Maybe. I don't know. It's a rumor, okay?

• 2:00:06Dax Shepard?

  I did, I, I'm not mad at you for telling me the rumor. I'm only saying it's often useful to think about how the knowledge has been acquired.

• 2:00:14Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 2:00:15Dax Shepard?

  You hear like someone say some study they heard about, and then you go, well, explain to me how that study was done, and you realize there's no way to do that study.

• 2:00:22Speaker 01

  I mean, there's a Reddit, but I just don't trust Reddit, so I'm not gonna even do that. Um, how much money does Alabama put into their football team?

• 2:00:31Dax Shepard?

  If UCLA is a hundred and fifty grand in the hole, I gotta imagine this is gonna be a big number.

• 2:00:38Speaker 01

  University of Alabama spent eighty-two point nine million directly on its football program. Um, while the university relies heavily on the football program to generate the vast majority of its overall athletic department revenue, the massive annual expenditure is funneled into various components to keep the program operating at an elite level.

• 2:00:56Dax Shepard?

  Will you ask how much money the football team generates?

• 2:00:59Speaker 01

  Yes, I will.

• 2:01:00Dax Shepard?

  I don't know if this is a cash positive.

• 2:01:03Speaker 01

  Also, twenty-five point two million dedicated to paying head coach.

• 2:01:07Dax Shepard?

  Twenty-five million a year to be the head coach.

• 2:01:09Speaker 01

  Staff seven million, game day expenses, seven point five million, recruiting, four million.

• 2:01:15Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 2:01:16Speaker 01

  Okay, um, how much does the University of Alabama football team gener- football team generate? A lot, I bet. A hundred and forty-seven point seven million.

• 2:01:29Dax Shepard?

  That's through their merch, I guess.

• 2:01:31Speaker 01

  Operating revenue.

• 2:01:33Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 2:01:34Speaker 01

  That's crazy. Net profit, sixty-four point eight million.

• 2:01:36Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 2:01:38Speaker 01

  The South, baby.

• 2:01:39Dax Shepard?

  It's worth it. They should spend a hundred million.

• 2:01:42Speaker 01

  I know. No, because they still wanna make money.

• 2:01:44Dax Shepard?

  Well, maybe they'd make, they make seventy-five.

• 2:01:48Speaker 01

  Georgia generates an estimate of a hundred and forty-seven million to a hundred and fifty-three million in average annual revenue.

• 2:01:54Dax Shepard?

  Whoa, ask me U of M. I know that's generally the biggest merchandised team, or I've heard that in the past.

• 2:02:00Speaker 01

  The overall UGA athletic department pulls in roughly two hundred and thirty-three point five million to two hundred and forty-one point eight million.

• 2:02:07Dax Shepard?

  Quarter B.

• 2:02:09Speaker 01

  Quarter B. Okay, what do you want, U of M?

• 2:02:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, how much does it generate?

• 2:02:12Speaker 01

  Football team or?

• 2:02:14Dax Shepard?

  Football team.

• 2:02:14Speaker 01

  A hundred and seventy-five point three million.

• 2:02:17Dax Shepard?

  I have heard many times that they're the, they are, for whatever reason, they, they tend to sell more merch than any other team.

• 2:02:24Speaker 01

  What?

• 2:02:25Dax Shepard?

  For whatever reason, yeah.

• 2:02:26Speaker 01

  That's crazy. What was the money exchange thing you're, I think you're talking about, that Elon had? I think you're talking about PayPal.

• 2:02:34Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:02:35Speaker 01

  Or X dot com slash PayPal, X money.

• 2:02:38Dax Shepard?

  It definitely was PayPal, because weirdly, I'm reading another book that just talked about PayPal.

• 2:02:44Speaker 01

  Great.

• 2:02:45Dax Shepard?

  Although PayPal is who bought his. So his was called something else.

• 2:02:48Speaker 01

  Teal thought it.

• 2:02:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:51Speaker 01

  Um, X money was what it was called.

• 2:02:53Dax Shepard?

  That was what it was called.

• 2:02:53Speaker 01

  Uh, was Jesus's room messy? I don't know. I couldn't find any information on that, but I looked.

• 2:03:00Dax Shepard?

  He probably didn't even have a room. I mean, we're talking.

• 2:03:02Speaker 01

  Exactly. He lived in a shed.

• 2:03:04Dax Shepard?

  Multi-room dwellings, I don't think.

• 2:03:06Speaker 01

  I think he lived in a shed.

• 2:03:07Dax Shepard?

  Uh, in a manger.

• 2:03:09Speaker 01

  Well, he was a baby.

• 2:03:10Dax Shepard?

  Well, I'm sure they would have continued living in that manger, no?

• 2:03:14Speaker 01

  I thought a manger was a basket.

• 2:03:16Dax Shepard?

  No, a manger is like a little tiny farm.

• 2:03:19Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:03:20Dax Shepard?

  There's a sheep and a, let's ask.

• 2:03:22Speaker 01

  I mean, I knew he was in a farm.

• 2:03:23Dax Shepard?

  That's true.

• 2:03:24Speaker 01

  But I thought, I, oh, I thought that basket he lit, he's.

• 2:03:28Dax Shepard?

  What's the definition of a manger? It says man- manger. How do you spell man- man?

• 2:03:33Speaker 01

  M A N G E R, I think.

• 2:03:34Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay, then that is correct. It looks, it looks like manager to me. Uh, a manger is a long wooden or stone through used to hold food and hay for farm animals like horses, kettles, and donkeys.

• 2:03:47Speaker 01

  So, well, like, yeah, like a barn, like you said. Oh, that, see, that's what I thought it was, a basket that he was in.

• 2:03:53Dax Shepard?

  But the basket is in a manger.

• 2:03:55Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:03:55Dax Shepard?

  The basket itself's not the manger, because that basket could be anywhere and it would still be a basket, but it's in a manger.

• 2:04:02Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:04:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, which is a big stone or wooden square that's containing horses, cattle, hay, and donkeys.

• 2:04:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't think a donkey could fit in that, so.

• 2:04:13Dax Shepard?

  That photo.

• 2:04:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:15Speaker 01

  All right, well, I learned something today. I thought it was a name for a bassinet.

• 2:04:20Dax Shepard?

  You didn't grow up Christian. What can you do?

• 2:04:21Speaker 01

  Exactly. What can you do?

• 2:04:23Dax Shepard?

  I would not, we would not know the word manger if Jesus hadn't been brought into a manger.

• 2:04:27Speaker 01

  I've never heard it apart from in the biblical sense.

• 2:04:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and, uh, the nativity scene is the manger.

• 2:04:33Speaker 01

  I should still know that, because, you know, I did take religion with my hot professor.

• 2:04:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and you went to a few, you went to a few, um, youth church groups with your friends, too.

• 2:04:46Speaker 01

  Um, I went to youth group with my friend like a couple times.

• 2:04:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:50Speaker 01

  I also went to, um, synagogue. That was more fun.

• 2:04:53Dax Shepard?

  It was, yeah?

• 2:04:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:54Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:04:55Speaker 01

  With my friend Julia. Anyway.

• 2:04:57Dax Shepard?

  Anyway.

• 2:04:58Speaker 01

  That's where I got liberty at, um, a Jewish bazaar. Yeah.

• 2:05:02Dax Shepard?

  Wow, wow, wow, wow.

• 2:05:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good deal. Okay, I love you.

• 2:05:06Dax Shepard?

  Love you.