Adam Grant #4 (on the secrets of strong connections)

Adam Grant (Vibe, Hidden Potential, and Think Again) is an organizational psychologist, Wharton professor, and author. Adam joins Armchair Expert to discuss being pushed out of his childhood friend group, feeling like an impostor at Harvard, and finding his footing on the diving team. Adam and Dax talk about memorizing students’ backgrounds, NASA sending incompatible astronauts into the wilderness, and the party that produced 78 marriages. Adam explains why proximity can beat dating algorithms, what separates pals from companions, and what an AI friend can’t give back. Start your 2 month free trial today: https://youtube.com/premium . Terms Apply. Cancel Anytime. Check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds: https://www.allstate.com/ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dax Shepard?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. Experts on expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Hello.

• 0:06Dax Shepard?

  Uh, our guest today is here for the fourth time.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  Phew. He's, he's almost in that five timers. Can we have our own five timers? You know, SNL has that.

• 0:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. He's biting on the heels of.

• 0:18Speaker 01

  Let's do six timers.

• 0:19Dax Shepard?

  Six timers. Do we have any six timers?

• 0:21Speaker 01

  Is Sideris?

• 0:22Dax Shepard?

  Kristen has to be a six timer. Has to be.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  She has to be.

• 0:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, there's no way she's not.

• 0:27Speaker 01

  She's the only one.

• 0:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  All right. Do you guys have something to look, look?

• 0:30Speaker 02

  Sideris has done six.

• 0:32Dax Shepard?

  Oh, six for Sideris.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  Six for Sideris.

• 0:35Dax Shepard?

  We are so lucky to get to talk to Sarah six times, to get to talk to Adam Grant four times. Anyways, we're so lucky. Uh, Adam Grant is an organizational psychologist and a bestselling author. His books are Hidden Potential, Think Again, Originals, and his new book out on October 13th, Vibe, The Secrets of Strong Connections in a Lonely World. This was so fun, you guys. We got to dance, dance, dance with Adam Grant.

• 1:02Speaker 01

  They'll be waltzed all night.

• 1:03Dax Shepard?

  Oh, we did, we did. We enjoy him so much. Please enjoy Adam Grant. We get support from Quince.

• 1:11Speaker 01

  I have to say, I am so ready for fall. I want sweaters. I've been craving a true crisp morning where I actually need a jacket. I can't wait.

• 1:20Dax Shepard?

  I'm fully there. The second it dips below 70, I'm like, this is my season. Give me the layers, give me the boots, give me a reason to wear something other than a T-shirt. And honestly, that's why I love Quince, because fall is when your wardrobe actually has to show up. And everything at Quince is 50 to 80% less than similar brands. We're talking 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters, starting at $60.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  $60. $60 for cashmere that you'd expect from a luxury brand without the luxury price tag. It's amazing. Gets me every time. It really shouldn't be real, but it is because they go straight to the factories. They skip the middlemen and they just hand you the savings. The stuff isn't trendy. It's the kind of pieces you grab over and over because they work every time.

• 2:00Dax Shepard?

  The 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters for me are it. When I look at Steve McQueen, this man owned a couple of sweaters he wore all the time and he looks iconic.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  It's a uniform.

• 2:11Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  And Quince isn't just about the clothes. They have hotel quality bedding, cookware, bath essentials, thoughtfully designed furniture. You can really go there and outfit your entire apartment or house. So if you're in need of any kind of fall refresh at home too, same quality, same attention to detail for every corner of your life.

• 2:29Dax Shepard?

  Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. This episode is presented by YouTube Premium. YouTube was already great, but premium supercharges it. If you like YouTube, you'll love premium. Try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com/premium. Trial eligibility varies. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. Now let's get into today's episode.

• 3:25Dax Shepard?

  What do you think of this weather, Adam Grant?

• 3:27Speaker 02

  I don't know what country I just arrived.

• 3:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I feel like, um, the only time I've ever experienced heat like this was I was on a cruise with my family and, I don't know, 98. And we got off the cruise ship onto a tender to go to Bali. And when we got on that boat, I was like, oh no, I don't, I don't think my body can handle this level of heat and humidity all at once.

• 3:50Speaker 02

  So painful. It feels like, our oldest was born in North Carolina in June. And they let us out of the hospital at midnight. It was 100 degrees.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  And you couldn't even breathe.

• 4:00Dax Shepard?

  In where, North Carolina?

• 4:01Speaker 02

  In Chapel Hill.

• 4:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. What are the complaints about Pennsylvania? You don't have fires. Some tornadoes occasionally, no?

• 4:07Speaker 02

  Rare. Not like we had in Michigan. The kids don't even know where to hide in a bathroom.

• 4:11Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 4:11Speaker 02

  Do you remember those drills with your head down?

• 4:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But how is Pennsylvania? When you imagine retiring, if you even imagine that, do you stay?

• 4:19Speaker 02

  I will definitely never retire.

• 4:21Dax Shepard?

  You'll never retire?

• 4:21Speaker 02

  No, don't even try it.

• 4:22Dax Shepard?

  Funny enough, just before you arrived, we had Jared Diamond on, who set the record at UCLA, I just found out. He taught there for 56 years.

• 4:31Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 4:33Dax Shepard?

  Isn't that crazy?

• 4:33Speaker 02

  That's a lot of teaching.

• 4:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. How long have you been teaching at Morton?

• 4:37Speaker 02

  We're coming up, I think this is 18 years, maybe?

• 4:41Dax Shepard?

  Okay. And how long do you think you could do?

• 4:43Speaker 02

  I hope to always do it.

• 4:45Dax Shepard?

  You hope to die at the pulpit there in a classroom?

• 4:48Speaker 02

  That would be traumatic for all involved.

• 4:50Dax Shepard?

  Okay, do I have the number right? Are you now on seven years consecutive of getting top rated professor at the school?

• 4:58Speaker 02

  No.

• 4:58Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  Because after the seventh year, they retired the award.

• 5:02Dax Shepard?

  Okay. Tell me more about that.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  They were probably sick of giving it to you. They're like, we can't keep giving it to him, but it's not ethical to not give it to him if he earned it.

• 5:12Dax Shepard?

  I hope if they bring it back, they call it the Adam Grant Top Rated Professor Award goes to.

• 5:17Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 5:18Dax Shepard?

  No one ever said anything to you about why they were canceling that?

• 5:21Speaker 02

  No, but this is not fair for two reasons. Number one, I don't teach accounting, right? It's so much easier to teach leadership and teamwork and psychology.

• 5:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  And number two, they based it on teaching ratings. And so the award goes to the professors who are the most liked, which is not always.

• 5:38Dax Shepard?

  The best teacher.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. If you give me an A, you're going up really high right away.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  And if your class is fun, which as you said, yours leans more fun than like a tax class.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  It's not fair. So I think it's good that they got rid of it.

• 5:49Dax Shepard?

  Was there any fallout? Did you feel any resentment from other professors? Like, oh God, here goes, Mr. Likables here. Like, were you feeling any of that?

• 5:58Speaker 02

  I don't know. I never encountered it directly.

• 6:00Dax Shepard?

  You might've been oblivious to it if it did occur?

• 6:02Speaker 02

  Probably.

• 6:03Dax Shepard?

  Okay. And so it's student generated data, right? They hand out a thing at the end of the year?

• 6:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, a course evaluation.

• 6:11Dax Shepard?

  And did they give a second place?

• 6:13Speaker 02

  No, but when they abandoned it, now there's an excellence in teaching award that just goes to, I don't know, 20 or 30 faculty a year.

• 6:20Dax Shepard?

  Have you gotten one of those?

• 6:21Speaker 02

  I have not failed to get it.

• 6:23Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay, okay, great, great, great.

• 6:27Speaker 02

  I hate this line of questioning.

• 6:29Dax Shepard?

  Tell me why.

• 6:30Speaker 02

  Forcing me to admit to things that I would normally not describe.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  But they're true.

• 6:36Speaker 02

  They're factual. So I can't, I can't weasel my way out of them.

• 6:39Dax Shepard?

  And I have an even worse question that'll make your skin crawl. So you've hit two of them. One is you're teaching a pretty fun curriculum. And then what do you think goes into it? How do you explain it?

• 6:50Speaker 02

  I mean, yeah, I'm the worst person to ask that question. You should talk to the students. Ask Sophia.

• 6:54Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I guess we could do that.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  We don't, yeah.

• 6:57Dax Shepard?

  I think the Sophia of it all is part of one of my guesses, which is like, I received a long email from you saying, I have this incredible graduate student. She made this really heartfelt thing. I think it'd be worth five minutes of your time to meet her. I don't imagine that's something every professor's doing, like taking time to connect a student with a potential job. That's gotta be one of the criteria.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  I don't think it hurts. I think that good teachers care about their subjects and great teachers care about their students.

• 7:26Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 7:27Speaker 02

  That matters.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  I like that, yeah.

• 7:28Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  There are little things that probably go a long way. When I, when I teach the MBA students, it's the first class they take at Wharton. And I memorize a couple of details about each of their backgrounds coming in. And so Monica, you raise your hand and I say, like, okay, Monica, tell me about your observations of effective leadership during your time as a nanny for Dax and Kristen.

• 7:51Dax Shepard?

  Or in Duluth, Georgia. Go deep.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  We could go to Georgia if you want.

• 7:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you want, we can.

• 7:58Speaker 02

  At first they think that I've just called out the one background I happen to know, but then I go through the whole classroom of 70 or 80 students. And there's a little, I guess, performance art to it.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  They feel seen.

• 8:08Dax Shepard?

  Well, I guess that would be another way for me to ask the question, which is, if you were asked by the university to teach incoming professors, you'd be forced to outline some bullet point of things that you think are, are relevant?

• 8:22Speaker 02

  I would.

• 8:23Dax Shepard?

  So what are a couple that you would?

• 8:25Speaker 02

  I think getting to know students personally is a huge factor.

• 8:28Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 8:28Speaker 02

  That would be number one.

• 8:29Dax Shepard?

  Is that challenging? I mean, you have a lot of students. You have a finite amount of time.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. Part of the reason that I started doing this memorizing thing is, I was teaching three sections of, I don't know, 75 students each for only a week. And I felt like there was no way to build a connection with the students.

• 8:45Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  And I had to do something to both show that I cared about getting to know them.

• 8:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  And also dry out their experiences, which would have been much easier in a semester. And I thought, okay, if I come in knowing a little bit about their background, when I teach culture, I can call in the military person. And when we start to talk about effective teamwork, I'm gonna bring in the, the person who was a professional athlete. That actually allowed for some choreography that was really great.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  Are you looking on like Instagram or Facebook?

• 9:09Dax Shepard?

  Are you hiring a think tank?

• 9:11Speaker 01

  How are you getting this information?

• 9:13Speaker 02

  If I were stalking them, it would be LinkedIn.

• 9:14Dax Shepard?

  What's that comedian's father's name? Whose father's really rich private investigator?

• 9:18Speaker 01

  Nick Kroll?

• 9:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, through Kroll Institute to do background check on everyone?

• 9:22Speaker 02

  Not creepy at all.

• 9:25Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so those would be some of the criteria. Now, you start the book Vibe with a pretty candid, detailed journey of your life from grade school to college in pursuit of making friends. A, is that hard for you to write? And then B, please tell us about that journey.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  I mean, it would be ironic to come into this studio and not embrace vulnerability, wouldn't it?

• 9:49Dax Shepard?

  Okay, well, you did it supremely in, in your book.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  Uh, thank you.

• 9:52Dax Shepard?

  So yeah, what was your experience trying to meet people and befriend people?

• 9:56Speaker 02

  I don't know that I noticed how hard it was at the time. I went through elementary school with a friend group. We traded baseball cards and collected comic books and played sports. And as far as I knew, everything was fine. And then in middle school, I started to notice that I was sometimes not invited to group get togethers. And one day, my basketball disappeared.

• 10:19Dax Shepard?

  This one really broke my heart.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, this is sad already.

• 10:22Dax Shepard?

  And it would be hard for me to write. Even though you're a victim, you, you feel shame sometimes in these situations.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  It was amazing to me, looking back, how vivid that memory was of going to play basketball with the group of my closest friends.

• 10:34Dax Shepard?

  Brand new basketball.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I saved babysitting money to buy the NBA basketball. And the game's over, I'm getting ready to leave and my ball is gone. Somebody must've been shooting it. It bounced into the stands or out the door. Couldn't find it. Eventually everyone just left. And then the person I knew least in the whole group, it was a friend of a friend, said, oh yeah, one of your friends stole your basketball and was bragging about it and thinks it's hilarious.

• 10:56Dax Shepard?

  One of your friends?

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:58Dax Shepard?

  That's really hurtful.

• 10:59Speaker 02

  The friend I'd introduced to the rest of the group, my oldest friend. And yeah, I found myself like I couldn't resist writing a little footnote in the book. I still want my ball back.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  That's hard. That's painful.

• 11:13Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so that's junior high. When do you start getting conscious of the fact like, I'm having a hard time. I'm looking around and this seems to be going easier for other people.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  I don't remember thinking a lot about it because I had I had two close friends then who were not part of that group. And I didn't realize it at the time, but looking back, one of the major things that brought us together was we didn't really have other friends.

• 11:36Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure.

• 11:37Speaker 02

  It was kind of we gravitated toward each other. We had a lot of common interests too. But there was real common ground that nobody had anywhere else to go. And I really didn't realize it until right before I sat down to start writing Vibe. I was with my my diving coach. And he said, I think diving taught you a lot of social skills. Because you were standing around 95% of practice, just having to talk in line. And your teammates did not like you freshman year. And by the time you graduated, you were voted team captain, and I watched that transformation.

• 12:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  And I said, it can't have been that bad. And he said, you had one friend. You arrived in high school with one friend. And you didn't seem bothered by it. And I said, well, no, I had two. You just didn't know the other one.

• 12:16Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 12:17Speaker 02

  But apparently I was just kind of focused on my goals and a little oblivious to it, but it it clearly stung.

• 12:24Dax Shepard?

  I'm delighted to hear it wasn't driving you crazy. It would break my heart if I thought you were really like pining for that, but.

• 12:30Speaker 02

  I was though.

• 12:31Dax Shepard?

  You were?

• 12:31Speaker 02

  Yes, I was. So because the, I guess, getting dropped by my friend group was gradual. It was a little bit of a death by a thousand cuts experience where someone's stealing your basketball. It's not a tragedy, right? But it's the most salient thing that kind of said to me, I'm no longer one of them. None of the ones who I thought were my friends even bothered to have my back here. My two friends that I was close with, we were so close that I think that it sort of filled the void. I really wanted to be liked. That was important to me. But I went from being bullied to just being excluded. And so the fact that I wasn't being bullied anymore made it seem like things were actually fine. Like I lost a bunch of friends. They obviously weren't good friends anyway. But at least nobody is making my life a living hell.

• 13:14Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes. There was some improvement happen.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. What were the, if you don't mind, what were the bullying? Like, what were they saying? Were they saying specific things?

• 13:24Speaker 02

  Most of it was like being made fun of for being a nerd.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  Okay, nerd. Okay, got it.

• 13:29Speaker 02

  Even my friends called me Mr. Facts.

• 13:31Dax Shepard?

  Classic bullying, a nerd.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  I mean, that was a thing back then, maybe still, but like a dork or what if I was just like throwing out?

• 13:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, just fire on, Monica. Thank you.

• 13:42Dax Shepard?

  Let's role play here. I say, I'm one of the guys, okay? What breadcrumbs do you start accumulating? I know by the time you get to college, some things start clicking. So what things do you pick up along the way?

• 13:55Speaker 02

  The first thing I learned was people wanted to be around me if I was good at something that helped the team. This was really easy.

• 14:03Dax Shepard?

  Springboard diving, junior Olympics.

• 14:05Speaker 02

  All of a sudden, the swimmers didn't hate every diver because I was scoring points for the team.

• 14:10Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  That gave me a simple way to be valued. And then I think when I got to college, you haven't met Brian Little yet, have you?

• 14:17Dax Shepard?

  No. I hope not. I'm so bad.

• 14:20Speaker 02

  You haven't. You haven't. You would remember him if you met him. He's just a dazzlingly brilliant and funny personality psychologist who I had the pleasure of meeting halfway through college. And I noticed that suddenly the people that I wasn't clicking with, when I interacted with them in Brian's class, suddenly we had a vibe. And I didn't know why, and I thought it was just the magic of Brian. But over time, I saw that Brian was doing things that actually were.

• 14:50Dax Shepard?

  Facilitating?

• 14:51Speaker 02

  He was helping us connect. And he would drop these little nuggets that then just stimulated conversation that was missing in a class. And so he would say things like, hey, did you know if you're an introvert, if we sprinkle lemon juice on your tongue in the morning, you will salivate more than extroverts do.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  What?

• 15:10Dax Shepard?

  Could that possibly be true?

• 15:13Speaker 02

  There's evidence for it. And I had the same reaction. And I immediately came home and told my roommates who tuned me out every time I talked about psychology.

• 15:22Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  Until then.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  It was kind of a water cooler moment. But he was also teaching me to to elicit curiosity. And to start conversations in ways that I just thought everything I was learning was interesting.

• 15:35Dax Shepard?

  You started discerning what might be appealing to a mass audience than just.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think this is the problem with every academic, right? One of the ways you succeed as a social scientist is being fascinated by things other people think are boring.

• 15:48Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes, it's a good niche. Would I be right to guess that if I were you and I was back in West Bloomfield and I'd gotten into Harvard, my fantasy would be like, yeah, this didn't work for me. But boy, I'm about to be with everyone that's just like me and it's gonna be hunky dory. Did you have expectations that you were gonna just land figuring it out?

• 16:11Speaker 02

  I thought that nerds might be cool at Harvard. What I didn't anticipate was the imposter syndrome part of that. Everyone arriving and either thinking they were sort of God's gift to humanity or feeling like I'm the mistake. I did not belong here.

• 16:25Dax Shepard?

  Sure. I wonder what percentage that is. I wonder if there's been any mega polling to find out what percentage of the kids feel like it was a mistake they got in. I bet it's high.

• 16:35Speaker 02

  I would imagine it's really high.

• 16:36Dax Shepard?

  Even Bill Gates, you know, he was the number one in math in Washington by like this insane deviation, right? And then he got to Harvard. And all of a sudden, he's like, oh shit, I'm like the third best at math in here. Like, I didn't think this was possible. I gotta pivot.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  You have to go start Microsoft because you couldn't.

• 16:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but just even if Bill Gates gets somewhere, it's like, fuck, I'm not really smart as he's. That's crazy.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  Sometimes I think that about people who went to Harvard. I'm like, you went there?

• 17:09Dax Shepard?

  Okay, in the other direction.

• 17:10Speaker 01

  So look, there is some reason to have some imposter syndrome there because you do, everyone has this idea of it. And then now as an adult, when I meet people from there, I'm sometimes like, okay.

• 17:22Dax Shepard?

  Underwhelmed.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  It wasn't this thing I put at like this unreachable, untouchable.

• 17:27Dax Shepard?

  They're not all Will Hunting.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  They're almost never mad at you.

• 17:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  Which I know is a great disappointment to you.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:35Dax Shepard?

  Once in a generation geniuses.

• 17:37Speaker 02

  But Monica, I can't tell you how glad I am I'm not in my twenties anymore. Because at that point in my life, I was defined by being a Harvard student and a Harvard graduate. Literally every dumb thing I did.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:47Speaker 02

  Good one, Harvard. You went to Harvard and it's just never ending.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  Yes, that's hard.

• 17:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, people are very, very envious of people who went to Harvard.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  But they also, that's what I'm saying. It's envious, but I think there's also, there is this.

• 17:59Dax Shepard?

  Mystique?

• 18:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess mystique around it that if you didn't go, you're like, oh yeah, those are geniuses. And they're really just people.

• 18:07Dax Shepard?

  I know I've already told you this story on one of the 80 times we've interviewed you, but well, a good friend of mine, Christine, went to Harvard Law. Opposite of you, she went U of M, then Harvard Law. I've been with her so many times when people were like, where'd you go to law school? And she says Harvard and the lashing she has to endure.

• 18:21Speaker 02

  The H-bomb.

• 18:22Dax Shepard?

  Fuck this dude.

• 18:23Speaker 02

  I mean, you just learn not to drop the H-bomb.

• 18:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and then you say we're in Boston and that's.

• 18:29Dax Shepard?

  That's more antagonistic in some weird way. How do you define vibe? Let's get a definition out of you for vibe.

• 18:37Speaker 02

  All right. I think about a vibe as the quality of connection between two people.

• 18:40Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great.

• 18:41Speaker 02

  Which is different, I think, from the way that a lot of people talk about it, which is I hear all the time, this place has a vibe or I love her vibe. And I have come to believe from the science that a vibe is less something you give off and more something that you create in your interactions with other people.

• 18:55Dax Shepard?

  Right. I think a popular opinion would be that a vibe is intrinsic. Like the space intrinsically has a vibe or this person has a vibe. What happens psychologically and even physiologically when people are in a vibe? Is it measurable?

• 19:11Speaker 02

  The neuroscience on this is amazing. So if you take a moment when you feel like, wow, I was really vibing with that person, whether it's a first date or a great brainstorming meeting, you can see a couple of things happen. One is that your brainwaves synchronize.

• 19:24Dax Shepard?

  The two people.

• 19:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, the two people interacting or the group for that matter.

• 19:28Dax Shepard?

  Not your own.

• 19:28Speaker 02

  Exactly. And then also your heartbeats will start to share a rhythm together.

• 19:33Dax Shepard?

  That's so right.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 19:35Speaker 02

  And I just love the idea that this is not just something that we feel or imagine in our minds, but you can actually trace it in your brain and in your heart.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Wow, chemistry. I mean, literally chemistry.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but you must also reject that even the way you just phrase that as like, it's not just something you feel. It's measurable here. I think that distinction's outdated and ridiculous, right? There's no division between that.

• 20:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's probably overly Cartesian.

• 20:03Dax Shepard?

  Descartian, right?

• 20:04Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 20:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, like this fake separation.

• 20:07Speaker 02

  Mind-body dualism.

• 20:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:09Speaker 02

  But there are things that we imagine that are really hard to pick up a physiological trace of. I like the fact that the signature of a vibe is so clear that you can detect it.

• 20:18Dax Shepard?

  The thrust of this book is you don't have or not have the capacity to vibe with people. You're not intrinsically incapable of it, or capable of it, that in fact, it very much is something that is manufactured and created between two people. And that there are many different situations that are going to up the chances of that happening. And that we can game this.

• 20:42Speaker 02

  That's a great summary of the premise.

• 20:44Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 20:45Speaker 02

  I don't like the gaming part.

• 20:46Dax Shepard?

  Oh, tell me why.

• 20:47Speaker 02

  Well, I think it makes it sound like a trick. And I think it's a skill.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  You think it sounds manipulative?

• 20:52Dax Shepard?

  You think gaming sounds like a pejorative?

• 20:55Speaker 02

  I don't want to use other people. Yeah, a little bit.

• 20:57Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 20:57Speaker 02

  I start to think also about, I don't think there are shortcuts. I don't think that a vibe is something you hack. I think that it's a skill you build to get better at connecting with more of the people more of the time. I am still dumbfounded by the fact that I can meet a complete stranger and instantly with no effort. We have just hit it off.

• 21:15Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 21:15Speaker 02

  And I can sometimes interact with somebody that I know really well and like and respect. And we just are like oil and water.

• 21:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, those are heartbreaking, aren't they?

• 21:24Speaker 02

  Devastating.

• 21:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, name your number one. I got my number one.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 21:27Dax Shepard?

  Who are you like most excited to meet that you admired and then you met and you're like, hmm, that was a big miss?

• 21:32Speaker 02

  Okay, so this is easier to answer if the person's not alive, right?

• 21:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:36Dax Shepard?

  I don't think this is mean to the other person. This is like, oh, for whatever reason, you two don't have that. Mine was James Hatfield. Like, I fucking love Metallica. This is a recovering addict. He's super masculine. He likes hot rods and...

• 21:49Speaker 02

  But he now talks about feelings?

• 21:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, he does now.

• 21:52Speaker 02

  He's in chapter six.

• 21:53Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I know.

• 21:54Speaker 02

  So it didn't...

• 21:55Dax Shepard?

  No, like I'm hanging with Lars, so then, then I get to meet him instead of dinner. I'm so excited and I've been waiting since I was 11 to do this. And then, yeah, there was just like zero sparks, right? If he were a girl, I'd be like, okay, we're definitely on to the next.

• 22:10Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 22:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And I was like, oh, bummer. I really thought we would vibe out.

• 22:14Speaker 02

  Did you tell him?

• 22:15Dax Shepard?

  No. I mean, all we had is that exchange and then I left and then that's been my experience with him. It's not like I know him now and we can reminisce on the time we didn't click.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  Okay, so if you were to rewind, knowing what you know now, what do you think went wrong in the interaction and how would you approach it differently?

• 22:30Dax Shepard?

  I wouldn't. I don't think anything went wrong. I was my genuine self and I think he was his genuine self and I think that didn't click. And I'm not gonna click with everybody.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, do you think everyone's supposed to vibe with everyone?

• 22:43Speaker 02

  No.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's okay.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  But I think there are conditions we can create that increase the probability.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:48Speaker 02

  And, you know, I start to think about, if we take James as an example, I think, okay, there are multiple wavelengths you could interact with him on. So, yeah, you showed up, you felt like you were authentic, but which version of Dax showed up? Is there another one that would have elicited a different version of him?

• 23:02Dax Shepard?

  There's no question that I could have many different outcomes with many different approaches.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 23:10Dax Shepard?

  Also, it's totally fine if he's like an introvert and he's not in the business of wanting to make a new pal while he's eating dinner. I accept all that. That's fine.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  I think that's fair. And actually, this is something that I think we all need to get better at is we walk away from those situations often either thinking there's something wrong with them and they're not who I thought they were, or there's something wrong with me and I screwed this up. That's where the shame comes in. And I think just accepting, hey, like for whatever reason in that moment, it didn't match.

• 23:36Dax Shepard?

  I have no judgment of James Hatfield. I don't think he did one thing wrong. I think just if we were a boy and a girl, we wouldn't have gone dancing that night.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  I don't know if I trust someone who gets perfectly along with everyone.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  Oh, you think they're fake?

• 23:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, or they're very surface or something. I'm like, who are you for real? If you get along with absolutely everyone, are you being honest or truthful about your opinions or yourself?

• 24:02Speaker 02

  That's so interesting.

• 24:03Dax Shepard?

  I think it's really relevant where we all come from, though. You're an academic. We just heard your history. You are with other students who really prioritize studying and overachieving and performing. And this is really, really essential information for them. And the star of the cheerleading team, she has a different version and I, I get to have a different version, you know?

• 24:27Speaker 01

  But I have that version for a long time. I had a, I need to get along with everyone. I need everyone to like me so I don't get thrown out of the group. But now I don't feel that. Now I'm like skeptical of like little me, who was like doing what she needed to do, but now I'm like, yeah, that person wasn't always being honest or truthful.

• 24:51Speaker 02

  Okay, so if somebody vibes with too many people, you think that's a clue that they might be...

• 24:55Speaker 01

  It's a little bit of a red flag.

• 24:57Speaker 02

  A red flag of what, though? Of people pleasing?

• 25:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Of approval seeking?

• 25:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:01Dax Shepard?

  I think the insecurity it can trigger in people if they observe that is like, oh, then that interaction with me wasn't sincere.

• 25:08Speaker 02

  What's the ideal, how many people should someone vibe with that you greenlight them?

• 25:13Dax Shepard?

  You know, I don't think we can say across the board whether it should be this number. I think some people would crave more connections and more vibes and some people probably have enough.

• 25:23Speaker 02

  Okay, so I think that's right. So it's interesting, though, I don't disagree that you have a skill when it comes to just connecting with people. I don't know, Monica, if you would agree with that too?

• 25:34Speaker 01

  With...

• 25:34Speaker 02

  That Dax does.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  Dax does, yeah.

• 25:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think that's part of why this podcast has been such a hit. I think it's part of why you have made it to where you are.

• 25:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  But I think that it's really easy to look at that and say, eh, that's just intrinsic to you. As opposed to, there are deliberate things you do that elicit that.

• 25:51Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  I'm curious to hear what they are because I think, no, I just, I mean, because I think you connect with people, definitely. I think I connect well with people. I think we do it in much different ways. So I'm curious what the...

• 26:05Speaker 02

  Let's compare and then I'll tell you who is better.

• 26:09Speaker 02

  I love the fact that I can look at both of you now.

• 26:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  First time in the new studio. This is amazing.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, it's your first time on video.

• 26:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I love it. Not in that part.

• 26:19Dax Shepard?

  I want to first lay out the architecture of it and we'll go through it kind of systematically. But basically, the book is organized into three challenges, right? So there's sparking connection. That's one thing with a lot of tips. Then there's sustaining connection. And then there's scaling connection. So we shall start, though, with first, let's go through the four types of relationships you lay out in the book. And we'll try not to debate those too much, the archetypes, so we can get through the book.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  I mean, I came in expecting a little bit of a fight on that.

• 26:45Dax Shepard?

  That's why we like having you.

• 26:46Speaker 02

  But I'm ready. I've got some ammo.

• 26:48Dax Shepard?

  You ate your Wheaties today?

• 26:50Speaker 02

  I definitely came prepared with extra data. One of the things that's bothered me for a long time is friend is a meaningless term. We have all kinds of people that we call friends and that call us friends. And it doesn't really give me any useful information about how important is this relationship to us? And are we investing in it in the same way? And it doesn't tell us what ultimately is the goal of the connection. And that bothers me because I know we all have colleagues. Some of them become friends and others don't. We have some people who are friends that feel like family. And everybody has at least one family member that they would prefer not to be related to.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  And so this idea of sorting people into categories in terms of just what part of our life they fit into, are they work? Are they home? Are they, you know, a friend in between? I've just found that increasingly unhelpful. What I've wanted to do is find a better way to talk about the different ways that people vibe. And after analyzing data from lots and lots of studies around the world, I found that there are four types of connections that exist pretty much everywhere. So I've come to call them associates, allies, pals, and companions. So associates are basically people who have compatible needs with yours. It could be, you know, a neighbor who does a carpool with your kids, that you help each other out that way. It could be your painter at your house, like they have a service to offer, you pay for it.

• 28:13Speaker 02

  These people are usually reliable and trustworthy, but you don't have usually a strong sense of meaningful connection with them. I think meaningful connections are usually allies, pals, or companions. So allies are people who share your goals. Pals are people who share your interests and hobbies. And companions are people who share your values.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  Hmm, and there can be some crossover within those, I assume.

• 28:34Speaker 02

  I think life would be a lot similar if everybody fell into only one category.

• 28:38Dax Shepard?

  Well, and I think a lot of the tension in relationships is that someone wants, I think, someone to be all four. And maybe observes that there's another person in that friend's life that seems to occupy all four, why don't I? But the pal, I think, is the easiest one. To explain, to point out, like a pal, by your definition, is someone you're specifically looking to have fun with.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:03Dax Shepard?

  You don't need them to be deep, you don't need them to be reliable, you don't need them to help you achieve anything, you don't need the values. It's like, who do I want to go off and have a fucking riot with? And I'm probably not going to trust them to take my kids to the doctor if I'm not around.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 29:18Dax Shepard?

  But there are certainly pals in your life that are like, why aren't I, why don't you call me when you have some big emotional thing going on? I do think there becomes jealousy among these categories that people observe if they've not articulated a name for it, but they know them.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is like the Esther Perel, like, you can't fill all the boxes.

• 29:37Dax Shepard?

  As a partner, yeah, yeah.

• 29:39Speaker 02

  It is, in general, people have closer relationships when they do cover all the different wavelengths, but it also can create a lot of complications. It's really simple to have somebody who's just a pal in your life.

• 29:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 29:51Speaker 02

  And you say, okay, we're gonna go to a concert together, we're gonna catch a movie, we might go on vacation. But that gets really problematic if you thought that person was a close enough pal that you also wanted some companionship from them, and they weren't there for you when you needed them. Or you made the mistake of thinking, you know what? I really like this person, let's start a company together. And you discover you do not like working with them, and they're a bad ally for you.

• 30:16Dax Shepard?

  You know, it's interesting, you kind of have given language to something that I had to figure out in my twenties, which was there was a particular friend that I loved. I was regularly disappointed with their dependability, or them showing up for me in a way that I hoped. And although I didn't go like, okay, right, they're just a pal, but I went, oh yeah, I have to have different expectations for different people in my life. And if I hold everyone to some standard that I have, I'm gonna be miserable. Like, I have to take people for as they are. And interestingly, I guess now reading this architecture, it's like, yeah, I basically just slid them into pal category without knowing that's what I did.

• 30:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's exactly how I found it useful. Everybody has been let down by a pal at some point. And you either try to then change the relationship and say, here's the allyship I expect of you, or here's the companionship I demand of you.

• 31:10Dax Shepard?

  I want a level of intimacy with you.

• 31:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:12Dax Shepard?

  That you're incapable of.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I have a lot of those, right? Where it's like, we're friendly, I see you all the time. And why aren't we intimate? That drives me nuts sometimes.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  It's super frustrating. And so rather than sort of fight that uphill battle, you decide, you know what? We are gonna be pals, and I'm okay with that.

• 31:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's very helpful.

• 31:33Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

• 31:38Dax Shepard?

  We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking if your alarm is actually set before you go to bed, you could have sworn you set it, even remember looking at your phone. But apparently, looking at it and pressing the button are two different things, because now you're waking up to sunlight and panic. Yeah. Checking first always makes sense. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary, subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Company and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. We get support from our presenting sponsor, YouTube Premium. Now, you already know I'm a big YouTube person.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:18Dax Shepard?

  It's incredible on its own, but Premium makes the whole experience feel enhanced. Like, you don't realize how much better it can get until you try it. The biggest game changer for me, background play. I love long, two-hour deep dives, you name it, motorcycles, travel, cars.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  Cooking shows for me.

• 32:38Dax Shepard?

  Cooking. Listen, with Premium, you don't have to keep the screen open, so I can lock my phone, slide it into my pocket, and listen to a podcast while I'm folding laundry or working out. It's also completely ad-free, meaning when a narrator is building up to the climax of an insane story, there's zero interruption. And for travel, offline download saves the day. I love this one. Relying on airplane Wi-Fi can be a gamble, so I just download my favorite videos before takeoff. And with smart downloads, Premium will automatically download new videos from channels you actually follow without having to lift a finger. I'm covered if I forget to download a video I want to watch, or even if there's no service. And the home run for me is that YouTube Premium remembers exactly where I left off

• 33:20Dax Shepard?

  and lets me continue watching on another device from right where I stopped. So I can start a video on my TV while brushing my teeth, and pick it right back up on my phone on my morning walk. So yeah, YouTube was already great, but Premium supercharges it. If you like YouTube, you'll love Premium. Try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com/premium. Trial eligibility varies, terms apply, cancel anytime. We get support from Superhuman. I'm someone who wants to do big, meaningful work, but the small stuff eats up my day before I even get to it. The endless emails, docs, scheduling, follow-ups that pile up. By the time all that's cleared, there's no energy left for the ambitious stuff. Most AI tools promise to fix that, but they require opening a new

• 34:03Dax Shepard?

  tab, re-explaining everything from scratch every single time. A week later, it's just another thing collecting dust in the browser. Superhuman, from the makers of Grammarly, is different. It's already embedded inside the tools people are using, email, docs, browser. It's not waiting to be found, it's already there, working alongside, clearing what's in the way, so the focus stays on what's actually worth doing. A thought partner that's already up to speed, no catching it up. It knows the style, the workflows, and it backs people up without getting in the way. At your service, not after your job. That's the difference. Give it a try for yourself. Start streamlining your workflows with Superhuman. Try today at superhuman.com.

• 34:46Dax Shepard?

  We get support from Instagram teen accounts. So, we talk a lot on this show about how the world is different now than when we were growing up. And one of the biggest differences is obviously social media. And I think a lot of people wonder, okay, what's actually being done to make it safer for teenagers?

• 35:02Speaker 01

  Which is a fair question.

• 35:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so Instagram has got something called teen accounts, and they come with automatic protections built in by default. So anyone between 13 and 17 is automatically placed into this experience. They get age-appropriate content settings, contact limits, so that by default, only people they're already connected to can message them. And time management tools, daily time limit reminders, and also sleep mode that mutes notifications from 10:00 PM to 7:00 AM.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Sleep mode is genius.

• 35:31Dax Shepard?

  Right? And here's the thing, for anyone under 16, a parent has to give permission to change any of those settings to be less strict. The guardrails are on, and Instagram keeps building new safety features to create age-appropriate experiences for teens.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  I am really glad Instagram's helping to give parents peace of mind with teen accounts.

• 35:51Dax Shepard?

  Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com/teenaccounts.

• 36:05Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so let's talk about sparking connection, and let's talk about, I guess, the framing of this would be how much proximity matters in friendships, right? And there's some pretty great data about this. I think it would shock people. But generally, how do people become friends?

• 36:17Speaker 02

  I thought it was similarity. I thought we click with people who have the same personalities as us.

• 36:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, or love the same bands, or whatever.

• 36:24Speaker 02

  I mean, that can be true, right? Similar interests can bring you together, that's an easy way to find a pal. But what's so funny is, whether you look at kids in elementary school, or police officers going through a police academy, they generally become close friends with the people who have the same letter last name that they do.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  What?

• 36:44Dax Shepard?

  Because they're seated next to each other.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  Oh my god, that's crazy.

• 36:48Speaker 02

  Whoever happened to be near you?

• 36:50Speaker 01

  What?

• 36:51Dax Shepard?

  Like, think about Aaron Weekly, my lifelong soulmate, love of my life. Best friend Aaron Weekly.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  He's sat next to you?

• 36:58Dax Shepard?

  Well, I had a best friend at my previous junior high, Kevin Guan, and he goes, hey, when you get to Muir Junior High, say hi to Aaron Weekly. He was my best friend in elementary. Can't wait. I love Kevin. What, I've got an endorsement. I finally find Aaron, you know this story, Monica, I find him in the bathroom in the sixth grade hallway.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Smoking.

• 37:13Dax Shepard?

  I'm like, are you Aaron Weekly? And he's like, he thinks I'm there to kick his ass.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 37:19Dax Shepard?

  And he's like, yeah, and he's terrified. And I'm like, this is Kevin's best friend. This guy's like, so nervous, and I, where's his personality, whatever. So that was that. I like, tried, he wouldn't even really talk back to me. And then, start of seventh grade, we're seated next to each other in Mr. Nelson's class, we start drawing pictures of ball sack cowboys.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  That I remember.

• 37:38Dax Shepard?

  And that's literally just because we got seated next to each other.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 37:41Speaker 02

  It's hilarious.

• 37:42Dax Shepard?

  It kind of points out one of the problems inherent in the internet, which is you are connecting on similarities, solely. There's no real proximity. It's counterintuitive, we would think that's what makes a good friendship, but no.

• 37:52Speaker 02

  I looked at this research and said, wait, so the two friends that I brought into high school with me, Khan and Jeremy, we were in the same middle school program. It was an experimental program, and there were 30 kids in a class, and one of them lived a bike ride away.

• 38:04Dax Shepard?

  There you go, yeah.

• 38:05Speaker 02

  And we just spent enough time together that we develop compatible interests.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:11Dax Shepard?

  It's almost dangerous to pursue it the other way. It's like, this is kind of like how it's supposed to be.

• 38:15Speaker 02

  We can't talk about this without talking about dating. Because the data on matchmaking algorithms, we could put an entire industry out of business, immediately. And Monica, this may be more relevant to you than to DAX.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:27Speaker 02

  I love these studies that Paul Eastwick and Eli Finkel and their colleagues have done, where they have you go in before, the best ones are before a speed dating event. And you fill out a questionnaire with everything you could think of about you, everything you could think of that you're looking for in another person. And then, they have a bunch of machine learning algorithms that use AI to try to figure out who's gonna match. And there is zero predictive utility from anything that you say about yourself, either being similar to, or complimentary to anybody else you've met. And also, what you claim you want in other people

• 39:01Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 39:02Speaker 02

  has no bearing on whether you click with them.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:05Dax Shepard?

  Oh yeah, it's all bullshit. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 39:07Speaker 02

  But there is this big industry saying, okay, we are gonna find you your soulmate. No, we should be getting people to spend a little bit of time together, and seeing if they can develop some compatibility, rather than trying to match compatibility.

• 39:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and if you have this device where you can just swipe through and select the people that you've decided you're good matches with, when we already know you are not good at picking who you're a good match with, now we've empowered you to only be with people that you're certain you'd be good with.

• 39:34Speaker 02

  Recipe for disaster.

• 39:35Dax Shepard?

  Problematic. Well, I think a great example to talk about this proximity is to talk about Katie Coleman and Paolo Nespoli?

• 39:42Speaker 02

  Oh, Katie Coleman and Paolo Nespoli.

• 39:44Dax Shepard?

  Okay, tell me about these two.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  My favorite astronauts. They are supposed to go to fly an International Space Station mission together. And they are incompatible.

• 39:55Dax Shepard?

  Are they from the same country? Let's start there.

• 39:56Speaker 02

  No, I mean, Katie's an American PhD chemist, Paolo is an Italian parachute jumper engineer. And she's very deliberate, and patient, and thorough, and perfectionistic. And Paolo is kind of

• 40:13Dax Shepard?

  Fly by the seat of your pants.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  Very much a ready

• 40:15Speaker 01

  Well, literal.

• 40:15Speaker 02

  Ready, fire, oh yeah, aim.

• 40:17Dax Shepard?

  Ready, fire, aim.

• 40:18Speaker 02

  I mean, he

• 40:20Speaker 01

  That's great.

• 40:21Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, I should probably have aimed. They're supposed to operate a robotic arm of the space station together. And in training, they are so incompatible that the NASA team says, this is not going to work. We cannot send these two into space together. And they're ready to re-engineer the mission. And by the end of their time in space together, Katie calls Paulo her space brother. And says, first, they became really great allies and they're willing to put each other's lives in their hands. Then they become pals, discovering a shared love of music and ultimately companions. Katie kind of being a shoulder for Paulo to cry on when his mother passes away while

• 41:02Speaker 02

  he's in space and helping to plan a flyover Italy moment where they can look at the boot during the memorial. You could have done all of the analysis on paper and said, it's just not worth the risk. And you would have lost, I think, one of the greatest relationships either of them has had in their life. There's so many examples like this and we think about our own lives. And how many people are you close to now that you met and said, eh, nope, not for me?

• 41:29Dax Shepard?

  Well, and also, these two perform this impossible task, Monica, which is they have this arm and then there is this module that has been deployed, right? And you're orbiting the planet at 17,500 miles an hour. And they've got to catch this device hurtling through space with the arm. They get into the exercise and it's already not going as it has gone so many times in the simulation, which they've done together. And it's because they've never had Earth in the background as this very destructive force and a perspective fucking force. And what ends up happening is they get into this dicey situation where they're kind of off script and they both make maneuvers that complement each other without even communicating.

• 42:12Dax Shepard?

  Not only did they get along, but they became synchronistic.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:16Dax Shepard?

  And at the end of this six months together, she said, I would love to do another six months in space, which is crazy.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  That's so cool.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  It's amazing.

• 42:25Dax Shepard?

  So there were mechanisms at play that got these two to have a vibe.

• 42:30Speaker 02

  Well, one of the things that I think is brilliant at NASA is they used to put people through training and essentially be like, okay, you meet a new colleague, you go to lunch together, then you see them again in a few weeks or a few months. And the problem with that is you can stay at the surface when you have those sporadic interactions. NASA figured out you got to do a deep dive really fast. And so what they do is they take astronauts and cosmonauts and they get them lost in the wilderness, usually in Utah with an outdoor leadership guide. And they have to fend for themselves. You cannot put on a mask for 11 days when you're lost in the wilderness. The real you is going to come out.

• 43:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:07Speaker 02

  And one of the things that happened on their crew that really helped them bond was this incredible trainer, John Cannongater, who sat them down and said, tell me your origin story. And they all told the story of the moment as children that they first knew they wanted to go to space. And I think what that does for them is it creates a sense of what psychologists call optimal distinctiveness, which is the feeling of fitting in and standing out at the same time.

• 43:34Dax Shepard?

  Hmm.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  Not all similarities actually connect people once you develop or discover them. It's only similarities that are rare.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  That have that power. I remember the first time I went to Europe, I met somebody from Michigan, instant best friend. I cannot believe I ran into somebody who can do this and point to the hometown.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  If I met that person in Michigan, meaningless.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. They're also the beneficiaries of this observation, which is emotional intensity accelerates connections. So shared arousal, excitement, fear, physical exertion, vulnerability. This like speeds up bonding, which is why like summer camp is what it does. Film sets, military service, college dorms.

• 44:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 44:17Dax Shepard?

  Now, talking about accelerated connections, do you tell us about Ann Atwater and CP Ellis? It feels like you made it up. It's too convenient.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  Mind-boggling story, but carefully reported in research. So Ann Atwater and CP Ellis, they tried to kill each other in the late 60s, early 70s in Durham, North Carolina. CP Ellis was the local leader of the Ku Klux Klan.

• 44:41Dax Shepard?

  He had a crazy title. Do you remember it?

• 44:43Speaker 02

  What, uh?

• 44:44Dax Shepard?

  It was a spooky title.

• 44:45Speaker 02

  Exalted Cyclops?

• 44:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, Cyclops.

• 44:48Speaker 02

  I'm trying to remember.

• 44:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. You're like, what is this Dungeons and Dragons or a hate group?

• 44:52Speaker 01

  They all have those crazy names.

• 44:54Dax Shepard?

  They're all like fantasy nerds, sorry.

• 44:56Speaker 02

  Crazy.

• 44:57Dax Shepard?

  Exalted Cyclops.

• 44:58Speaker 02

  I mean.

• 44:59Dax Shepard?

  What a title.

• 45:00Speaker 02

  Grand Dragon.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:02Speaker 02

  He's a white supremacist and Ann is a local civil rights leader. She's black. She is tough. She's not afraid of a fight. She's an imposing figure. And they've been at odds a few times coming into this strange situation in Durham where there's federally enforced desegregation in schools finally. And there's essentially a town hall where a conflict mediator, social worker is brought in and Ann and CP start swearing at each other during it. And this mediator, Bill Riddick, has this wild idea. And he says, what if I make them work together? What if I get them appointed the co-chairs of the committee to desegregate Durham's schools? It does not go well at first.

• 45:46Speaker 02

  CP refuses to talk to her. He brings a gun to a meeting and shows it to her and then she brings out her Bible.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 45:53Speaker 02

  And it's intense. She's already lunged at him with a knife going into this. He's already had a plan to try to shoot her or somebody from one of her rallies. I mean, just the whole thing is a mess. And I think if we looked at them today, if we pause right there, we would write them off. But over the course of this intense experience, they suddenly discover that they actually have some shared goals. They both come from poverty. Both of their kids are really suffering and they're just kind of exhausted, working morning to night. They break down into tears and as they described it later, they start to melt. And you can see, like, if you follow the arc of their story, you can see how being sort of put in this position of having to do an intense task in a bubble where you're not interacting with other people, you're just kind of all in on this.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  So Ann is away from the civil rights activists who say, you may not ever talk to a white supremacist, which is an understandable position. CP is away from his crowd that will say.

• 46:48Dax Shepard?

  There's no way they were supportive of him talking to a black female.

• 46:52Speaker 02

  Not a chance. And in that bubble that they're in, the intense emotions of the experience, they bring out vulnerability in them. They start to become associates and uneasy allies. And then there's some music built in, they have these kind of nice pal interactions. And ultimately, they break down into tears and become companions. And they become so close as friends that Ann's granddaughter grows up calling him Uncle CP.

• 47:15Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 47:16Dax Shepard?

  He quits, obviously.

• 47:17Speaker 02

  He leaves the KKK.

• 47:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. He had to say goodbye to that and fun title Cyclops.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  Well, maybe they still called him that for him.

• 47:25Speaker 02

  I hope not.

• 47:27Dax Shepard?

  Reformed Cyclops.

• 47:28Speaker 01

  Maybe she's called him Uncle Cyclops or Grandpa Cyclops or whatever.

• 47:33Speaker 02

  I look at that and I think, okay, this is not something you could engineer in most situations where there's that level of hatred. But there are principles we can take away from it, one of which is, Dex, as you were saying earlier, emotional intensity does accelerate connection. I love the haunted house data on this. So if you go with a friend to a haunted house, you will end up becoming closer afterward. Your bond accelerates.

• 47:56Dax Shepard?

  Good first date, then, haunted house?

• 47:57Speaker 02

  Potentially.

• 47:58Dax Shepard?

  Seems like it.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  That's really fast. That's too fast.

• 48:02Dax Shepard?

  You're moving too fast.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  Like third or fourth date.

• 48:04Speaker 02

  Depends how easily you're scared.

• 48:06Speaker 01

  Physically grab each other.

• 48:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, what if Brad Pitt asked you to go to a haunted house?

• 48:10Speaker 01

  I'll go.

• 48:10Dax Shepard?

  Okay, haunted house is this Halloween.

• 48:12Speaker 02

  But it only works if you have a little debrief about it afterward.

• 48:15Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 48:16Speaker 02

  So that there's some shared experience of processing it, not just the jump scare during it.

• 48:21Dax Shepard?

  Oh, interesting.

• 48:22Speaker 02

  Which I thought was kind of cool. And so you can say, okay, that's a version of, we need our hearts racing, but we need our hearts racing together. It's not just you go into a haunted house, I go into a haunted house, we come out, now we're best friends. It's, this has to be something that only we understood.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:37Speaker 02

  And we had a unique conversation about.

• 48:39Dax Shepard?

  But Bill Riddick did Marionette a little bit of it, right? What were some of the tasks he gave to help facilitate?

• 48:45Speaker 02

  With Ann and CP?

• 48:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 48:46Speaker 02

  One of the things that he did that I thought was ingenious was, as co-chairs of this committee, he had them write a report on how to make sure that desegregating the schools was not a disaster. And CP said, well, I gotta protect the white kids from these black kids who are coming in. And Anne said, I need to protect the vulnerable black kids from the white kids who are coming in.

• 49:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 49:09Speaker 02

  And so all of a sudden, they realized.

• 49:10Dax Shepard?

  We're both scared on behalf of our folks.

• 49:13Speaker 02

  And we need to write a peace plan essentially together to protect our own children.

• 49:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 49:18Speaker 02

  And it's a common goal, but it also sort of created a common enemy, which is either side wanting violence is now a threat to their interests.

• 49:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, we agree on what would be bad.

• 49:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:30Dax Shepard?

  You confront a fallacy, and this is great, because I think a lot of people operate under this belief that first impressions tell us who people really are. And of course, you have the incredible example of C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien, which I didn't know this story, which is pretty fascinating. But first of all, why is that wrong? I'm guilty of this. I'm like, I, I, yeah, I'm really, I'm just, I think I'm really great at assessing someone prima facie, and my story is given my background, right? So I have this whole story that I'm pretty good at sniffing out.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  This goes kind of against Malcolm, this like thin slicing a little bit.

• 50:05Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 50:06Speaker 02

  Does it?

• 50:06Speaker 01

  I mean, a little, right?

• 50:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, all the science on intuition. But anyways, tell us.

• 50:11Speaker 02

  No, I think what's actually interesting, if you were to juxtapose this against Blink, I think what Blink told us is you can infer particular things about people from thin slices. The classic, not only on body study, was you look at a 30-second video of a professor giving their first lecture, silent, and then you can predict their teaching ratings at the end of the semester. You have these nonverbal cues that signal enthusiasm and excitement and passion and care, some of the things we were talking about earlier. How much do you really know the person and what they're gonna be like to interact with outside of that setting? Not a lot. You have gotten a snapshot of a professor, not of a human.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think the huge error we make constantly is we assume people are consistent in different contexts.

• 50:57Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 50:57Dax Shepard?

  This was a great point that Orna made. Do you know Orna, the psychologist?

• 51:01Speaker 02

  I've heard you guys talk about her. She's the love therapist, right?

• 51:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, she's just, yeah. What I admire about her is that every time the show starts, you meet these five couples. I'm always like, fuck this. They all need to run from, away from each other, right? They're completely triggering each other. This is a bad match. And particularly, I asked her, like, you know the criteria for narcissism. I'm watching, and I know this guy's a narcissist. How are you staying optimistic about this? And she said, well, what's really interesting is that people are narcissists. It's still contextually dependent. They can show great narcissism in some areas and then not in others. And she's like, I personally don't subscribe to the all-day, all-in personality type.

• 51:43Speaker 02

  No one should.

• 51:44Dax Shepard?

  That's very powerful and very challenging to most of us, because it's inconvenient.

• 51:48Speaker 02

  It is inconvenient.

• 51:49Dax Shepard?

  It'd be a lot easier if people were consistent.

• 51:51Speaker 02

  I mean, if we could just put people in boxes.

• 51:53Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:54Speaker 02

  Astrology would be legitimate. Sorry, Monica.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Oh, no. We'll put a pin in that hole later.

• 52:00Speaker 02

  Your call whether you want to go there or not. But I think that a lot of people hear a description of a personality, and they think that means you're like that all the time. No, personality is not your destiny. It's your tendency. And your personality traits really just describe what your default instincts are. And so if I were to say, let's take an example, let's do agreeableness. Monica, I think you're a little more agreeable than Dax on average.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 52:25Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow. I don't know if you're right about that.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  I do. I agree with you.

• 52:29Speaker 02

  I mean, get to his charge right here. He can't even make it a sentence without fighting on it. But I think that all that says is, if we followed you for your whole life, you will end up on the agreeable side of the spectrum a little more often than Dax, and maybe you'll go further to the kind of cooperative extreme than he does. But you fluctuate all the time, and there are situations where you will be really antagonistic.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 52:52Speaker 02

  And there are situations, Dax, where you're gonna be really, probably even accommodating of other people.

• 52:57Dax Shepard?

  If you had video of me at night in my household with my children and my wife versus this video of, which we do have, with Monica and I in here, is completely two different people.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  And I think what we overlook is, this has completely changed the way I think about personality. We all have what psychologists call if/then signatures, which are, like, our thens are, okay, there's an agreeable side of you, there's a disagreeable side of you, there's an extroverted side of you, there's an introverted side of you. The ifs are, what are the triggers that bring out each version of you? And I think the problem with snap judgments is we are seeing a then and we're missing the if.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  That makes sense.

• 53:30Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  I mean, we even talked about this yesterday on a fact check. Dax was telling a story about his kids and family getting in and out of the car. They're supposed to leave at a certain time, and they weren't. And he's telling this story, and he's just like not saying anything. And I was like, look, I normally disagree with you on most things, but you're right in this case to be mad. And like, I would be very disagreeable in that situation. I'd be like, everyone needs to get in the car right now.

• 53:55Dax Shepard?

  We're not negotiating when the plane leaves. It's set time.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  Exactly. But you were agreeable there, because you didn't want to cause a fight.

• 54:03Dax Shepard?

  It's not worth it. Yeah.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I would not be able to be agreeable in that situation.

• 54:08Speaker 02

  That's a great example of, the better you get to know someone, the more you see them in 3D. And you realize, if you pay close attention, I can understand how to elicit different versions of them, which, you know, I think goes right back to our Metallica buddy, James. Okay, so you saw a particular then in a certain if. I can't help but wonder in those situations, what if you met in a different context? Would a different version of him have shown up?

• 54:32Dax Shepard?

  This never occurred to me, but as you're now saying this, this just crossed my mind, which I think is probably true, which is, I have been a fan of James Hatfield since I was 11. I have expectations that we will get along great. He, like me, has incredible spidey senses when someone approaches with really big expectations. I know what that feels like. You can sense it. So let's just start there. Probably, he's like, oh, fuck, you know, this is a task now. I've got like, this dude clearly has expectations.

• 55:02Speaker 02

  And I'd rather just not meet them.

• 55:03Dax Shepard?

  I can't deliver, dude. I got, I'm gonna do a show in an hour. It's not the time for me to expend energy making your dream come true. It's all legitimate.

• 55:10Speaker 02

  But if you came up after the show?

• 55:12Dax Shepard?

  Or when he's on vacation and we're at the same hotel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You never know. You're right. I should hold out. Maybe we'll still, we'll still go boar hunting in Russia together, even though I don't want to hunt.

• 55:23Speaker 02

  I mean, if you're that much of a fan. But I do like the idea of saying, okay, we see this all the time. I was floored by watching Serena Williams and Maria Sharapova become close, because they had such a heated rivalry as players. Okay, like, this is the person who's standing in the way of you achieving your life goal. Of course, you're not gonna immediately hit it off, but all of a sudden, you're not rivals on the tennis court anymore, and you're able to develop a lot of reasons to have a close connection.

• 55:52Dax Shepard?

  It's the only other person on the planet that knows what she's been through.

• 55:55Speaker 02

  Exactly. The only. And I just wonder how many of those connections we miss, because we write the person off after the first interaction didn't go well.

• 56:03Dax Shepard?

  Right. So I didn't know this, but C.S. Lewis and Tolkien both were professors at the same time in the 30s at Cambridge?

• 56:10Speaker 02

  They were at Oxford. They started in the late 20s, and they had a terrible first interaction.

• 56:14Dax Shepard?

  They fucking hated each other.

• 56:15Speaker 01

  Really?

• 56:16Dax Shepard?

  They hated different authors. They were both literature professors. They hated different ones. One was a Christian, one was an atheist. They couldn't stand each other. And then C.S. Lewis sees that Tolkien is gonna host this reading of Norse mythology, like, as just an extracurricular fun thing to do. And he decides to attend. Neither of them yet feel liberated to be indulging writing fantasy.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 56:41Dax Shepard?

  They hadn't yet, right?

• 56:42Speaker 02

  No, I mean, at that point, they're just riffing about Thor. But they discover, oh, on this topic, I like that version of the other person. And now maybe there's something here, and that, that becomes the gateway to, had they not been willing to just let go of their first impressions of each other, we might have no Narnia and no Lord of the Rings.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 57:02Dax Shepard?

  Isn't that wild? And also probably them substantiating each other's dreams in some weird way.

• 57:08Speaker 02

  It seems like it was, obviously, had never met them, but it seems like it was validating.

• 57:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  To have another kind of wonky academic who actually wanted to tell great fantasy stories.

• 57:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Huh.

• 57:19Dax Shepard?

  What do you mean by people are shapeshifters?

• 57:22Speaker 02

  I think about shapeshifting as the process of kind of fluctuating on your then when you have a different if. So asking me if my son is courageous or timid, and I'll say, it depends on whether you see him on the ski slopes with his friends or the amusement park with his sisters. The latter, he'll be a little bit more cautious, because he knows that they're older and they're willing to try rides that are scary, and that was a little hard for him. On the ski slopes, he will be the first one flying down the mountain, wanting to egg on his peers a little bit.

• 57:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 57:53Speaker 02

  And so who is he? Is he brave? Is he cautious? Yes. He's a shapeshifter.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:59Speaker 02

  I want to hear, Dax, you said, you said you recognize things you do to bond with people.

• 58:04Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm.

• 58:05Speaker 02

  I want to hear this thing that comes so easily to you. How do you do it? I have one observation, which is, the first time we met, I guess it was up here. Monica, I don't know if you remember this. I don't know if you were in the room yet.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  Maybe it was before I walked in?

• 58:17Speaker 02

  I think it was before you came in. I remember, Dax, I guess we can check the audio, right? I remember, maybe it wasn't even recorded, you said, I want to bond with you. The first thing you said to me.

• 58:27Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow. No memory of that, but.

• 58:29Speaker 02

  You don't remember it at all?

• 58:30Dax Shepard?

  It doesn't sound unlike me.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  No, it doesn't.

• 58:32Speaker 02

  I just remember being really surprised by it. I was coming to spar about ideas and share data and learn. Why does Dax want to bond with me? What is that about? It's weird.

• 58:43Dax Shepard?

  Did I want to bond with you about, I can guess which things, the village?

• 58:47Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 58:47Dax Shepard?

  Restaurant?

• 58:48Speaker 02

  Village place.

• 58:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 58:49Speaker 02

  Village palace now.

• 58:50Dax Shepard?

  The potential of getting your ass kicked at the 7-Eleven next door. The village. It just seems like, who else am I gonna run into in this job where it's like, we know the highs and lows of both going into the village and then trying to go into that 7-Eleven?

• 59:04Speaker 02

  The Kega Harbor Dairy Queen?

• 59:05Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 59:07Speaker 02

  But now, looking back at that interaction through the lens of the different wavelengths, I thought, okay, this is a really interesting way. We do this in romantic relationships all the time, right? The DTR, define the relationship.

• 59:18Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I don't know that term.

• 59:19Speaker 02

  Or woo woo, what's up with us? My students told me about that one.

• 59:22Speaker 01

  Oh, that must be new. I don't know that.

• 59:24Dax Shepard?

  That's a cul-de-sac of a question, I gotta say. That's not a good question.

• 59:28Speaker 02

  I would not recommend anyone ask that ever.

• 59:29Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 59:30Speaker 02

  But there's something useful about it, right? You at some point declare,

• 59:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:34Speaker 02

  yes, this is a relationship, or yes, this is an exclusive relationship.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  At some point, you do have to do that, unless it's obvious.

• 59:40Dax Shepard?

  You don't say, what's the deal with this? You be vulnerable and you go, I would love to be able to call you my girlfriend. How do you feel about that? Let's just go right there.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  So this is how I'm feeling.

• 59:49Dax Shepard?

  The fucking dance, the wording is like, oh shit, is he breaking up with me? Is he wanting to marry you?

• 59:54Speaker 01

  Well, now you just have to say woo woo, I guess. It's kinda cool.

• 59:58Dax Shepard?

  It's cute, see, woo see. Oh, but yes, I'm aware of a few things, which is like, I am not uncomfortable at all with vulnerable stuff.

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 1:00:07Dax Shepard?

  I'm not uncomfortable with trauma. I'm not uncomfortable with addiction. It's just like, I'm not very flappable. And in fact, I most enjoy knowing those things about people, because I think I much better understand who they are. I think I have my own not great origin of the motivation, which is like, I'm very in a hurry to find out, are you friend or foe? And if you're foe, I need to have my guard up. So I think I developed really quick ways like, hey, can we be intimate and cool, or do we need to fight? One of those things has to happen, because I'll be so uncomfortable waiting to find out which one it is. So I think that's maybe how it started, but I think that's one of the things.

• 1:00:45Dax Shepard?

  I mean, I told this on the other podcast, it hasn't aired yet, but I will say, I've come to find out, there's also a responsibility behind that, that I did not acknowledge. I didn't have the awareness that that was a unique quality of mine. And I definitely think there were many girls I had very casual relationships with, that for them, I came with a level of intimacy that was very misleading. And I didn't know that. I thought, because I was quite honest about my intentions, or where I thought things were going. I never told someone I loved them that I didn't, you know? I thought my side of the street was clean, but now that I'm older and I look back, I do realize that level of intimacy was probably pretty unique for a lot of people, and it was probably a bit misleading, and I feel quite bad about it.

• 1:01:28Speaker 02

  I think that makes sense. I also think this is where people often confuse the rituals with the type of relationship you have. I would say what you were doing in those conversations is, you're doing a companion ritual. Right? Which is, you're expressing a level of emotional intimacy that you only would do to somebody normally that you have very strong feelings about.

• 1:01:47Dax Shepard?

  That most people would normally only do.

• 1:01:49Speaker 02

  That would be the expectation.

• 1:01:50Dax Shepard?

  But I'm quite comfortable with.

• 1:01:51Speaker 02

  Right, and they don't know that.

• 1:01:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's how could they?

• 1:01:53Speaker 02

  And so they think that means, this is a really serious companion.

• 1:01:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Look, one of the most heartbreaking experiences I had, and it wasn't too long ago, I made an amends to an ex-girlfriend. And what I had come to make an amends for, she was like, oh, yeah, whatever. And then she said something that broke my heart, which was like, yeah, you know, it never really got better.

• 1:02:15Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:02:16Dax Shepard?

  And I was not prepared for that. And that's, I felt really terrible about.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  Got better for her?

• 1:02:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, like, she never did connect with someone so deeply again, and I.

• 1:02:26Speaker 01

  That's horrible. Are they married?

• 1:02:27Dax Shepard?

  That breaks my heart. They're not married. And look, we had, she is one of my more serious girlfriends, but at the same time, that's when it kinda clicked, like, oh yeah, I guess a lot of the boys in my town weren't offering that level of like, yeah, let's get into your emotions and mine.

• 1:02:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:44Dax Shepard?

  And so that was kinda my lightbulb moment of like, oh, I wish I had better awareness.

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  But if she was a serious girlfriend, you then were in a relationship. You gave your all in a relationship. You can't like, regret that.

• 1:02:57Dax Shepard?

  I don't regret just being me, but I feel sorrow that like.

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  I mean, it's sad, of course.

• 1:03:02Dax Shepard?

  I assumed walking away, oh, she'll have that with everyone she dates for X amount of time.

• 1:03:07Speaker 02

  You did not know you would be the one who got away.

• 1:03:09Dax Shepard?

  And I don't even know that she feels like I'm the one that got away, but just like, whatever weird level of intimacy we had, that was easy for me to have, was unique to her. And that feels very unfair to have introduced that to somebody and then just gone on with your life.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  Well, she got to have it.

• 1:03:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. That's a nice, thank you. I felt, I felt really, it really, you know, caused me to go through the whole book again and go like, oh yeah, yeah, that's misleading. Doesn't really matter what you tell people. Doesn't matter if I go like, hey man, I got a girlfriend, we're an open relationship. If you want to have fun tonight, I'm up for that. If you don't, of course, whatever. And then we have fun for the night. I don't think I necessarily was accurate about what that experience might have been. Or how misleading or confusing that might have been for people.

• 1:03:56Speaker 02

  I think this is one of the fundamental challenges in all kinds of relationships, is actually getting on the same page about what the expectation is. And I found myself thinking, you know what, like, a lot of the conflict I have with people is, we're just, we're just on different wavelengths. This person really wants to be a pal. And I'm like, nah, ally. Do we tell each other that?

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:15Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:04:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's hard.

• 1:04:20Dax Shepard?

  That's seriously impossible.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  You just hope.

• 1:04:21Dax Shepard?

  They say something like, hey man, I just wanna be pals.

• 1:04:25Speaker 02

  So it's like a breakup.

• 1:04:26Speaker 01

  But if they don't know the vernacular, they're gonna be like, we are pals.

• 1:04:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, me too. That's what I'm trying to be.

• 1:04:31Speaker 01

  Yay!

• 1:04:31Speaker 02

  Yes. But I don't want you in this other role.

• 1:04:37Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

• 1:04:44Dax Shepard?

  This episode is supported by Dell. Ready to upgrade your PC? The Dell Top Tech Event is here. And you can skip the research, because independent tech experts already did it. Dell has laptops, desktops, and monitors that have been tested, reviewed, and named a winner by the publishers you trust. So instead of spending hours researching, you get a shortlist that's already proven. Take the Dell XPS 13 Laptop, built for those who want better. Whether you're studying, working, or just getting things done, its thin and light design makes it easy to take anywhere.

• 1:05:21Dax Shepard?

  It has a touchscreen you'll love using, a battery built to last through your busiest days, and impressive performance powered by Intel Core processors. That's the thing about the Dell Top Tech Event. The experts already found the winners. All that's left is finding yours. While shopping, you'll also find perks like Dell Rewards, fast free shipping, premium support, and financing with flexible payment options. Shop the winners now at dell.com/deals. That's dell.com/deals.

• 1:05:56Dax Shepard?

  We get support from our sponsor, Lilly. For adults with obesity or with excess weight and weight-related medical problems, it's time to find out about Foundo or for Gleepran. Foundo is a once-daily prescription GLP-1 medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off.

• 1:06:22Speaker 04

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• 1:07:02Speaker 04

  Once Daily Foundo is available by prescription only in 0.8 milligram, 2.5 milligram, 5.5 milligram, 9 milligram, 14.5 milligram, and 17.2 milligram tablets. Learn more at foundo.lilly.com or call 1-800-LILY-RX. Now is perfect to talk to your doctor about Foundo.

• 1:07:19Dax Shepard?

  This episode is supported by Helix.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  Dax, is there anything better than crawling into a perfect bed on a cold fall night? Candlelit, hoodie on, maybe even some rain outside. The dream.

• 1:07:33Dax Shepard?

  That's the dream. You just described one of my ideal fall nights.

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  I know. And thanks to Helix, my bed actually lives up to the vibe. All I had to do was take the Helix Sleep Quiz, and within two minutes, they matched me to a mattress built for exactly how I sleep. I have a midnight mattress. It also has cooling technology.

• 1:07:52Dax Shepard?

  Ooh.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  Which I really.

• 1:07:54Dax Shepard?

  Increasingly so.

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  I need it. I have to have it. And I heard that you're supposed to sleep at a cold temp. Optimal sleep. It's very, very helpful.

• 1:08:05Dax Shepard?

  She is not wrong. I have one too, and it's been such a game changer for sleep. And I love that they make it so easy. Free shipping right to your door. And with their happy with Helix guarantee, you'll get a full 365 nights to try it. A whole year to live in that cozy. They've got over 20 mattress models, so no matter how you sleep, they've got one for you.

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  And it's not just us saying it. Helix has been named the most awarded mattress brand by Forbes, Wired, and more. You gotta try it for yourself.

• 1:08:32Dax Shepard?

  Go to helixsleep.com/armchair for 20% off site-wide. That's helixsleep.com/armchair for 20% off site-wide. helixsleep.com/armchair. This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I have my dream job. I get to talk to folks I admire like crazy, and ask them virtually any question that I want to. I can't imagine a better way to spend my time. But even dream jobs have some not-so-dreamy parts, the stuff that gets in the way of the actual work. Now, that's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it, start to finish.

• 1:09:16Dax Shepard?

  Cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. So you and your team can focus on what matters most, which for me is, are they obsessed with male bodies on the same level as I am?

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  They never are.

• 1:09:28Dax Shepard?

  To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com.

• 1:09:40Speaker 02

  My oldest had a really funny observation. Somebody was texting me, like, wanting to get together for lunch. And she said, "Oh, it's a pal Vader." This person is an associate. I don't know them well, but they're kind of trying to barge into a certain kind of relationship that you would only have with somebody that you enjoy. And I didn't want that. How do you say that? There's no script.

• 1:10:01Dax Shepard?

  I think you respond according to how you want to respond, and it's on them to figure out, oh, that's what they're giving. I can't be responsible for your ability.

• 1:10:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, you give with boundaries what you hope they'll read. But if they're giving too much, you have to pull back. I think that is the responsibility piece that you're sort of talking about with these relationships. Yeah, if you're giving a ton, they're gonna think you're very close.

• 1:10:26Speaker 02

  This is a problem. This is a problem. As somebody who likes to help people, I think a lot of people mistake my attempt to be a good ally for wanting to be a pal or companion.

• 1:10:37Dax Shepard?

  Well, again, because you got to acknowledge that those people have probably not had a lot of people go out of their way to help them.

• 1:10:42Speaker 02

  This is my version of you being seen as a companion. What are we? Monica, what are the two of us?

• 1:10:47Speaker 01

  Woo woo?

• 1:10:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm just curious.

• 1:10:49Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I gotta look at your list.

• 1:10:52Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, there's some level of pal.

• 1:10:57Dax Shepard?

  For sure.

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  Because you guys hang out sometimes and you have similar hobbies, which are learning, learning and thinking.

• 1:11:06Dax Shepard?

  Activating and thinking.

• 1:11:07Speaker 02

  Although that could be seen as also allyship. If we both have goals of learning.

• 1:11:11Dax Shepard?

  But we lifted weights together in Montana.

• 1:11:13Speaker 02

  True.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:11:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, anytime Adam's on, he stays and has dinner. I mean, that's a friendship.

• 1:11:19Speaker 01

  I would say you're pals with some... Remind me about ally, the depth of allyship.

• 1:11:25Dax Shepard?

  I think the ally thing is implicit, which is we have a shared goal. He wants to best represent his book. I want to best represent his book and make it interesting.

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  And what was the first one again?

• 1:11:35Dax Shepard?

  Associates. I think we've passed associates. I'm not paying you to maintain my sprinkler system or anything.

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  I think it's...

• 1:11:42Dax Shepard?

  So we have an allyship, we have a palship. And then, by the way, like, we've also had intimate exchanges. Like, there was a moment where we talked about having your wife on the podcast, and we had to have very vulnerable and revealing conversations that I think is beyond what a lot of pals have.

• 1:11:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, okay, so this is, again, this is back to... So like, you need to be careful. Because I think you've had intimate interactions. Doesn't mean you're companions. That the level of intimacy is always at a 10, or that you're always the one you go to, or...

• 1:12:17Dax Shepard?

  No, we probably just dipped our toe in companionship. But no, I'm not gonna call you if I'm struggling with a relationship issue with Kristen. I'm not gonna call you.

• 1:12:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I wouldn't call me for that either.

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  You have other relationships.

• 1:12:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, there's a list of dudes I would probably call before.

• 1:12:34Speaker 01

  So you're pals and allies. Now, we...

• 1:12:37Dax Shepard?

  Or all the things.

• 1:12:38Speaker 02

  You're the center of the Venn diagram.

• 1:12:39Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:12:40Speaker 02

  And that's why he calls you his soulmate all the time.

• 1:12:42Speaker 01

  Yes. But do you think we're pals?

• 1:12:45Dax Shepard?

  Of course.

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  Well, I mean more like, because we don't have many hobbies.

• 1:12:49Dax Shepard?

  The fact check is pure paldom. It's just play. There's no point to it whatsoever.

• 1:12:55Speaker 02

  That's why I sometimes tune out at that part.

• 1:12:57Speaker 01

  No, it's the best part. It's the best part. Okay, but I guess when you are going to, like, race cars or something, I'm not like, oh...

• 1:13:05Speaker 02

  Well, your hobbies don't overlap 100%.

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  I wish I could go do that.

• 1:13:08Dax Shepard?

  No, but we love spades, we love...

• 1:13:10Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 1:13:11Dax Shepard?

  I mean, dude, the fact check is us being pals.

• 1:13:14Speaker 02

  You enjoy each other's company too much to not.

• 1:13:16Dax Shepard?

  Yes. I'm genuinely amused by all of your stories that go nowhere.

• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  They go way away.

• 1:13:22Dax Shepard?

  Not one of them's relevant of telling, yet I'm endlessly amused by all of them. So I think that's palship.

• 1:13:30Speaker 02

  I think I used to be a better ally to both of you, because I used to help recruit guests, and that is no longer relevant.

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  You're a great ally. If you ever think of people for us, and you always send that over to Sophia, yeah, you're thinking about us. We're not very good allies to you. What have we done?

• 1:13:45Dax Shepard?

  No, I think I do a really good job of learning his stuff.

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  Well, you do.

• 1:13:48Speaker 02

  I mean, you're...

• 1:13:51Dax Shepard?

  Have AI assess the other interviews if they knew your book as well as I did. Well, we'll see what the answer is. We'll see what the answer is.

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  We'll see.

• 1:13:58Speaker 02

  Put that in the fact check, Monica.

• 1:13:59Dax Shepard?

  But let's talk about sustaining connection, because I think there's also some counterintuitive assumptions we all have, which is like, people think frequency is the metric they should be using. And you've got wonderful cases where that's not true.

• 1:14:11Speaker 02

  So much pressure on especially relationships that are supposed to count for something, to interact on a regular basis. If we don't have a weekly meal with our former college roommates, or some parents to adult children insist on nightly phone calls. And I think they're mistaking the frequency of interaction for the closeness of connection. And those two things are not the same. And I think the evidence is very strong on this, but everyone knows somebody who they could go a decade without seeing, and they would pick up like they didn't miss a beat.

• 1:14:44Dax Shepard?

  It's Aaron and I. We had decades where he was still a raging addict and I wasn't. We did our best to be around each other, but it was quite limited. And then as I got sober, it's like we were in 7th grade all over again. Nothing changed.

• 1:14:55Speaker 02

  I think we should recognize the virtues of catching up less often. I think we have too many relationships that are treated... They become high maintenance, because there's this guilt if you're not always seeing each other, or talking to each other, or texting back and forth. And to me, that's actually a sign of a fragile relationship. If the relationship cannot withstand time, it might not be a strong connection to begin with.

• 1:15:17Speaker 01

  Kristen will love that part.

• 1:15:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, she sure would.

• 1:15:22Speaker 02

  No, this does not apply to your spouse. Let's just be clear.

• 1:15:25Speaker 01

  No, but how long can you go? Because, yeah, you're right. Like, if you have, like, people living in other states and stuff, I have that with a bunch of friends from home. Like, yeah, I don't catch up with them as much, I guess, as maybe I should. But I don't feel like the relationship is suffering. But I do feel with my friends here, if I haven't seen them in three weeks, or a month, or something, I'm like, we gotta see each other. We gotta connect. I think it changes things.

• 1:15:54Speaker 02

  I think that's true, too. So I think sustaining a connection is different from continuing to strengthen one. And spending more time together, obviously, can continue to strengthen it. But if you want to maintain it at its current level, and you don't want to lose it, frequency just becomes kind of a background variable.

• 1:16:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 1:16:08Speaker 02

  And I think part of that depends on what wavelength you're on. So allies are really easy. Think about all of the people in Hollywood who could go decades without collaborating. And the chemistry is right back when they find a project that's of mutual interest. I think with pals, too, as long as you have some hobbies or activities that you both enjoy, you could go water skiing with your high school friends, and probably will feel pretty similar to high school. I think with companions, it's much harder, because there is an assumption that you, in order to be emotionally connected and supportive of each other, that you really know what's going on in each other's lives.

• 1:16:44Dax Shepard?

  That it requires a lot of maintenance.

• 1:16:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, or more. And so I think we have fewer companions in general. I think there's more pressure on the companion connection to have those touchpoints. But I also think all it takes is a little bit of interaction to signal that you care about each other.

• 1:16:59Dax Shepard?

  What do penguins do?

• 1:17:00Speaker 02

  So, penguins, some penguins, not all penguins. I love this so much when I read about it. I first came across it when a nurse posted about it on Twitter, X, whatever we call it now, that some penguins have these courting rituals, where they will collect and present these smooth, shiny stones to show their suitability as a mate. And it's kind of a gesture saying, "I am a good partner for you." So I think the digital equivalent of pebbling is sharing memes, reels, articles. You come across something on the internet that reminded you of someone, and you send a quick text over to them, and all of a sudden, they say, "Oh, wow, Monica thought of me. I didn't expect that."

• 1:17:42Speaker 02

  This is not spamming people with random junk from the internet. This is not kind of a mass blast. It's a personal, "Hey, I read this article, Dax, and it's on the effects of testosterone on male connections, and that reminded me of you." And you're like, "Wow, I didn't know you remembered that."

• 1:18:00Dax Shepard?

  He really hates that I'm on testosterone.

• 1:18:02Speaker 02

  Doesn't bother me at all. But, you know, the more specific it is to the person, every pebble you send is a gesture of care. And the research on this shows that if you send little pebbles, it's kind of a memory flex. Because you're signaling to the person, "Hey, this relationship matters enough to me that I paid attention to what you care about, and I noticed something that would resonate with you." And I think relationships can be kept up over distances and decades through those little pebbles back and forth. There used to be letters that people wrote to each other.

• 1:18:32Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 1:18:33Speaker 02

  And now, obviously, it's a lot easier to do. But I think it makes it more important than to choose really thoughtful pebbles. Kristen is a great pebbler.

• 1:18:40Speaker 01

  She loves sending memes.

• 1:18:41Speaker 02

  She sends me the best content. Every time I get a text or DM from her with a link to something, usually on Instagram, like, "How do I get your feed? What shows up in your feed is what I want in my feed."

• 1:18:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Wouldn't it be great if you could map your algorithm onto other people? Like, give me your algorithm, I want to try that for a week.

• 1:18:58Speaker 02

  How do I get that?

• 1:18:59Dax Shepard?

  That should be a feature. Adam Mosseri, make your algorithm transferable.

• 1:19:03Speaker 02

  We're coming for you, Adam. We have an algorithm upgrade. What I never know, we should ask Kristen this. I don't know if she's doing it deliberately because she knows that it's a low-effort way to show high care, or whether she's just excited to share something that will land with somebody else.

• 1:19:18Dax Shepard?

  The latter.

• 1:19:18Speaker 02

  That's what I assumed.

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  I think the latter, but I do think it's her personality. Like, I don't think she's drawn to just, like, texting and checking in. Like, that's not her nature, right? So this is more her nature. She sees something, she thinks you, she sends it. Yeah, and so so much of that is personality. Because I actually, like, really don't like sending memes unless it's perfect. Like, I sent Dax one the other day of, like, someone pooping all over Los Angeles, or something like that. Like, and he was on the run. Yeah, on the run.

• 1:19:54Dax Shepard?

  And I think I said the greatest one of all time to you, which was the woman who just pulled her shorts aside and pooped in a grocery store. And what was so obvious by the footage was, oh, this is not her first time.

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  It was crazy.

• 1:20:04Dax Shepard?

  The expert level at which she could just pull her pants aside, do a goose turd, and then keep it moving. I'm like, not this chick's first time shit in the grocery.

• 1:20:14Speaker 01

  She like walked right to the area.

• 1:20:15Dax Shepard?

  She had like a spot.

• 1:20:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, she had a spot.

• 1:20:17Speaker 02

  This is peak armchair anonymous material. You have to find her now and interview her about it.

• 1:20:22Dax Shepard?

  I have a hunch that our worlds don't overlap at all. They saw when I saw it, that piggly, squiggly. All right, now, messy connections are also worth maintaining. And again, I think we live in an era... And just me getting old, but I feel like people are just like, if this person's not perfect, I'm out. If he's not perfect, get out of there. She's not perfect, dumber. You know, like, I think, man, we are fucking quick to keep it moving. So let's talk about how we do navigate messy connections.

• 1:20:51Speaker 02

  Most people assume what you want around you are your friends and you want to avoid your enemies. And psychologists have now shown for the past quarter century that there's actually a type of relationship that is worse than an enemy. It's a frenemy. So they're called ambivalent relationships. And they're people that you have both positive and negative feelings toward. I see this all the time when people talk to me about their in-laws. I don't know why they're talking to me about their in-laws. But like, oh, I love the fact that they're great grandparents to my kids, and I hate the way they belittle my partner. That is a textbook ambivalent relationship.

• 1:21:23Dax Shepard?

  I gotta hit you with this. Jared Diamond, who is just here, his book is on leadership. And there's all this incredible statistical info on CEOs who lose a spouse, there's a predictable drop in profits the next year or two.

• 1:21:38Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:21:39Dax Shepard?

  With a child, obviously. With a sibling and parent, yes. And then if an in-law, a mother-in-law or father-in-law dies, there is a, not statistically significant, but

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  But still.

• 1:21:51Dax Shepard?

  an increase in profits.

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  Isn't that upsetting?

• 1:21:55Speaker 02

  Oh, I do not want to know what boards are gonna do with that information.

• 1:21:59Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:22:00Speaker 02

  But what's shocking to a lot of people is you can even see physical health effects that your blood pressure spikes more if you're interacting with a frenemy than an enemy. You are more likely to suffer cardiovascular disease. If you have a lot of ambivalent relationships in your life, you are more vulnerable to heart attacks and to cardiovascular disease. And what happens is, one thing that's nice about enemies is at least they're consistent and predictable. And so you minimize your contact, or you put your guard up, and you're done. With ambivalent relationships, you don't know, are we going in for a hug? Do we need to brace ourselves for a brawl? Are they gonna be nice to your face and then stab you in the back? And we waste tremendous amounts of emotional energy trying to anticipate

• 1:22:44Speaker 02

  how it's gonna go, and then manage it in the moment, and then we ruminate about it afterward, and it takes a toll. And we can't just cut them out because they do have virtues, but their vices are really bad. And so for me, this raises the question of what do we do about maintaining those?

• 1:22:59Dax Shepard?

  What do we do?

• 1:23:00Speaker 01

  What do we do? Because also, as a Virgo, which I know you respect.

• 1:23:04Speaker 02

  I do not.

• 1:23:05Speaker 01

  I feel like, I'm aware, and Capricorns are also pretty aware of this, that we all have good things and bad things. So by this definition, every single one of my relationships is ambivalent because I know the good things about them and the bad things. But that doesn't mean, it just means we all have bad things.

• 1:23:25Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:23:26Dax Shepard?

  Don't you think some of the things are hurtful and some are not?

• 1:23:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:29Dax Shepard?

  Right? Like, like, I can recognize someone's bad with money, so I'm not gonna start a business with them. But if they are like, positive, positive, something really negative and judgmental about you, and you're like, oh, God, that kind of hurt. You know, I just think whether their, their bad side impacts you or not is probably relevant.

• 1:23:50Speaker 02

  I drew a two by two in Vibe to try to capture this, where if somebody has virtues that are great and vices that are totally tolerable, they're immediately gonna be a natural ally, pal, or companion. If somebody has horrible vices and kind of virtues that you don't value, then that's an adversary, enemy person. The tricky in ambivalent relationships is the virtues are important to you. You value those positives, but the vices are also problematic for you. And so that wouldn't be all of your ties. Because a lot of the ambivalence is just, yeah, I don't like that thing about them, but I can get over the fact that they leave their fingernail clippings on the sink.

• 1:24:25Dax Shepard?

  I think a really clean example would be like an addict in your life.

• 1:24:29Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:24:29Dax Shepard?

  You might like totally love the addict, but if you're linked and dependent on them in some capacity, their unpredictability is highly stressful and hard to navigate.

• 1:24:42Speaker 02

  It's a really uncontrollable if then.

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:24:44Speaker 02

  Because, okay, I've got Dr. Jekyll when they're sober, and when they're not, Mr. Hyde's gonna show up.

• 1:24:51Dax Shepard?

  Or most likely not show up is the outcome of Mr. Hyde behind the wheel.

• 1:24:57Speaker 02

  You don't want Mr. Hyde to show up. That's hard. So I think the biggest thing I learned while researching the book about how to deal with ambivalent relationships was really captured by Joe Dumars. I have to have a Detroit sports.

• 1:25:08Dax Shepard?

  Of course. We have Rashid, too.

• 1:25:10Speaker 02

  Joe and Rashid together.

• 1:25:11Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:25:12Speaker 02

  So Monica, do you know the Pistons backstory?

• 1:25:15Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:25:16Dax Shepard?

  Eighty-eight, eighty-nine, we won back-to-back championships.

• 1:25:18Speaker 02

  He was the good guy on the Bad Boys. He was my favorite player.

• 1:25:21Dax Shepard?

  Of course.

• 1:25:22Speaker 02

  And, yeah. Predictable. Yeah, yeah, I'm predictable. Guilty as charged.

• 1:25:29Dax Shepard?

  I like Vinnie the Microwave Johnson, because he was smoking three packs of Kool-Aid and draining threes.

• 1:25:33Speaker 02

  Microwave was impressive. Spider Sally was great.

• 1:25:36Dax Shepard?

  Rodman.

• 1:25:37Speaker 02

  Bill Laimbeer with the elbows.

• 1:25:38Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:25:39Speaker 02

  So Dumars finishes his playing career, he takes over the Detroit Pistons. And he makes a trade that pretty much all of Detroit is furious about. He trades for Rashid Wallace, who is the most volatile player in NBA history.

• 1:25:53Dax Shepard?

  He leads the league in technical fouls by two standard deviations and has for like four years straight.

• 1:25:58Speaker 02

  He's been kicked out of more games than any player ever, and he's just a hothead, and he's constantly flying off the handle. Now, he's also a big man who can shoot threes.

• 1:26:07Dax Shepard?

  He's an insanely talented player.

• 1:26:09Speaker 02

  Crazy talented, but also unreliable. And so you really want him on your team, except when he screws your team.

• 1:26:14Dax Shepard?

  You wanna put him in a cage when he's not on the court, just keep him, yeah.

• 1:26:18Speaker 02

  So what most of us would do, we would either end up with rose-colored glasses and think, eh, no, no, we're gonna have a different Rashid this time, he'll mature. Or we're just gonna say, this guy is not gonna cut it on our team, and we write him off. What Joe Dumars did, having played with Dennis Rodman and experienced a volatile player before, is he sits down with Rashid, actually says this right at the airport. He says, hey, I understand that you're gonna lose your cool. And I understand that you're gonna have meltdowns. We just can't have that happen when the game is on the line. And I cannot have any technical fouls in the fourth quarter. And Rashid says, I got you, Joe. What Joe was basically doing

• 1:26:59Speaker 02

  is he is accepting his emotions, and he's containing his behavior. And the idea of simultaneously saying, I accept the way you feel, but this is not an okay response to that feeling, this has changed the way I think about managing all kinds of ambivalent interactions. I've even done this with, I wrote about this a little bit with Allison.

• 1:27:17Dax Shepard?

  His wife.

• 1:27:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:27:18Speaker 02

  I think she would say my biggest vice is being late to most things, unless there's a room full of people waiting for me to take the stage. Like, that's the only time when I'm definitely not gonna be late. And for years, she tried to convince me that it's morally wrong to be late. No, she's like, other people, like.

• 1:27:36Dax Shepard?

  You're valuing your time more than their.

• 1:27:37Speaker 02

  Exactly. No, no, actually, I'm thrilled when other people are late.

• 1:27:40Dax Shepard?

  I'm lost in my own time, is what I am, yeah. I haven't factored anyone else into it. I'm fucking lost over here.

• 1:27:46Speaker 02

  Please be late for me. I love it. And finally, one day, she just said, I understand that you have a hard time disengaging from a task until it's done. Like, I get in a flow and I disappear. And I understand that you don't think it's important to be on time. Here are situations where that is not okay. We cannot be late if somebody has made dinner for us, and it's gonna be getting cold. And I was like, oh, I can show up on time in those situations.

• 1:28:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:13Speaker 02

  I've just seen so many relationships fall apart when people are kind of at each other's throats about, I want you to change who you are.

• 1:28:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:28:21Speaker 02

  Like, no, no, accept the tendency, contain when it appears.

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Okay, scaling connection, planned serendipity. Tell us about Jeff Zaslow.

• 1:28:31Speaker 02

  Let me start here. During my middle school days of losing friends on the basketball court, he moved in diagonal from us across the street.

• 1:28:39Dax Shepard?

  Oh, really?

• 1:28:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:28:40Dax Shepard?

  Ah.

• 1:28:41Speaker 02

  And he was the first adult who came over at a neighborhood barbecue when I was shooting baskets on my driveway alone, and said, hey, do you wanna play horse?

• 1:28:51Dax Shepard?

  How much older was he than you?

• 1:28:53Speaker 02

  He was in his 30s. I was 12. He had young kids. He'd just moved with his wife. He saw a middle schooler shooting hoops. I don't know if he was bored by the barbecue conversation, or he was such a giver. He's like, oh, I can help, I'll go play a game with that kid who's alone. And turns out, he's a journalist, and he took over the Ann Lander's advice column. And so he's getting all these reader requests, and a lot of them have to do with love. And he decides that he's not content to just answer their questions. He wants to help them fall in love. So he dreams up a Zas Bash where he invites his single readers to show up. They're hosted in Chicago, people come from multiple states, and a bunch of couples fall in love and get married. And it grows and grows, and eventually, he tracks

• 1:29:38Speaker 02

  it over the course of 15 years, 78 marriages.

• 1:29:41Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:29:42Speaker 02

  At Zas Bash, organized by a journalist. And so what I envisioned as a kid, hearing him tell these stories, was, okay, he's got a profile on each of the people, and he's trying to find them to match. But no, he anticipated what we were talking about earlier with matchmaking algorithms being bogus. And he said, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna choreograph interactions that bring out a better version of each person. And a lot of the interactions were just, he had these great pal rituals. It was the heyday of Seinfeld. And so he had people show up and do a Kramer dance.

• 1:30:11Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. Sounds miserable.

• 1:30:14Speaker 02

  I mean, that would not, that would not be my cup of tea either. But a lot of people, to the point about showing a little vulnerability, they were a little bit sillier, they had more fun together, and I think it greased the wheels of connection. And I think that it's something I've really become a passionate believer in, that we think that great connections in gatherings are spontaneous. And they are not. They are choreographed, in that if you design the right ways for people to connect, they are more likely to find allies, pals, companions, and hit it off. And we can make a whole list of them.

• 1:30:43Dax Shepard?

  Well, here's some fun ones I wrote down. No phones as a rule. That's good. At a mixer. Don't talk to anyone you know.

• 1:30:53Dax Shepard?

  This is my favorite. No advising, fixing, or solving. That would be a challenge.

• 1:30:57Speaker 02

  It's a hard one for me.

• 1:30:58Speaker 01

  You would not be able to go.

• 1:31:01Dax Shepard?

  But I could Seinfeld dance.

• 1:31:02Speaker 01

  I'm not going for that.

• 1:31:04Dax Shepard?

  But yeah, you say instead of hosting something, kind of design something.

• 1:31:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, you should have a vision in mind, whether it's a dinner party or a boring work meeting. Ideally, you come in with a vision of what kind of bond am I trying to create? If you want people to be allies, have them come in with a problem. Have the group try to solve it. I love those exercises. If you want people to be pals, have them do something silly. I would say, let's play telestrations. It's my favorite bonding game. And then if you want people to be companions, you skip the small talk and go right to deep talk and start a conversation, it could be in pairs, it could be in a small group, about what is your biggest regret?

• 1:31:41Dax Shepard?

  Tell me about your relationship with your mother.

• 1:31:42Speaker 02

  Exactly. Not everybody's.

• 1:31:44Dax Shepard?

  We've all got a lot to say about our relationships with our mothers, right?

• 1:31:49Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I'm saving this chunk of time for this, because this is where we could have a fun debate, and it'll be two on one.

• 1:31:55Speaker 02

  Oh, good.

• 1:31:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:56Speaker 02

  I hope I'm the one.

• 1:31:57Dax Shepard?

  It'll be you two against me, for sure.

• 1:31:59Speaker 02

  Oh, that's gonna be too easy.

• 1:32:00Dax Shepard?

  Because I know your position on this. Okay, so you have a little section on AI in your fear around AI. And if I could summarize, it's if people become accustomed to frictionless artificial companions, ordinary humans with all their irritating needs, disagreements, and imperfections will begin to seem intolerable. Great relationships are not effortless. Real relationships contain friction, obligation, uncertainty, rejection, compromise, and mutual need. Go ahead and voice your fears of AI. That's pretty much it, right?

• 1:32:31Speaker 01

  That's spot on how I feel, too.

• 1:32:33Speaker 02

  The evidence is accumulating.

• 1:32:35Dax Shepard?

  Tell me about the evidence. Maybe I don't know about the evidence.

• 1:32:37Speaker 02

  Well, an alarming number of young people say they have an AI companion.

• 1:32:40Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:32:40Speaker 02

  And a sizable minority of those would rather interact with their AI companion than an actual person, even a friend.

• 1:32:47Dax Shepard?

  What is sizable minority? Let's put some numbers to this.

• 1:32:50Speaker 02

  It might be a third, a quarter to a third of the young people who say they have an AI companion.

• 1:32:55Dax Shepard?

  And what percentage of young people say they have a companion, do you know?

• 1:32:58Speaker 02

  Seems to vary by survey, by location. The numbers are climbing, though, and actually elderly people now increasingly have them. And it turns out empirically that the most lonely elderly people end up lonelier after interacting with AI companions. Because you cannot have, a relationship is a two-way exchange.

• 1:33:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:17Speaker 02

  And you could receive from an AI. It can communicate to you in a way that helps you achieve your goals and kind of seem like an ally. It can simulate companionship by expressing sympathy. It can certainly, I guess, have a conversation with you about your interests that feels pal-like. You can't give anything back to the AI. The AI does not need your help. It does not need your emotional support. It does not need to have any fun with you.

• 1:33:42Dax Shepard?

  It can't be happy at your accomplishments?

• 1:33:44Speaker 02

  No, it can't have any experiences.

• 1:33:46Dax Shepard?

  It can't be disappointed in you and share that when they observe bad behavior?

• 1:33:50Speaker 02

  Well, it could. It's not gonna feel the disappointment, but it could be communicated. But I think we overlook the fact that our most meaningful relationships live in the contributions we make, not just the support we receive. And a relationship in which you have nothing to offer to an AI is not a relationship at all.

• 1:34:08Dax Shepard?

  At first, I would say yes. I think it is yet another tool, another technology, that is driving us away from being a social primate into a solitary tiger. I think it's one more thing.

• 1:34:22Speaker 02

  Bingo.

• 1:34:22Dax Shepard?

  And I'm very vocal about the many things that facilitate that.

• 1:34:29Speaker 02

  I rest my case, Your Honor. Monica, do you have anything to add? We're done here.

• 1:34:32Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, you're very nervous about isolation and the lack of like, relationships and things like that.

• 1:34:37Dax Shepard?

  I am. So I want to concede that. I'm trying to make a steel man argument for both of you, right?

• 1:34:43Speaker 02

  I like it.

• 1:34:43Dax Shepard?

  Additionally, another very loud voice in my head is screaming, this is yet another moral panic. And I definitely think it's another moral panic. I'd like to see the data. I think people are still friends. I have kids. I'm watching other kids. I think everyone's completely freaked out that we have a generation of kids sitting in their rooms, talking to their computer. I personally don't see it, just A. And B, I definitely think it fails to acknowledge that, yes, it is not as good as a real relationship. And it can't give you many of the things we'd want someone to get out of a real relationship.

• 1:35:23Dax Shepard?

  Also, there is a sizable chunk of this country of ours that aren't gonna have any companionship whatsoever. For all these other instruments that already exist, they can be self-sufficient, have a job that's online, and they don't need any companionship to shoulder the rent. They don't need to go to the restaurant to eat the food. It gets delivered. They don't need to go to the movie. There's a lot of technologies driving people in this direction. And I think you have to acknowledge that although it is a shitty relationship, for a certain segment of our population, it'll be that or nothing. And I definitely think you need to evaluate whether it's additive to someone who's completely alone. And I think we have such a specific way of evaluating it, and even the way we would

• 1:36:08Dax Shepard?

  design a social experiment around it, is no one's gonna set out to prove the theory. It actually, for some small percentage, it is better than having no connection whatsoever.

• 1:36:18Speaker 02

  Oh, there are lots of researchers trying to test that. And that's, I think, why the data on it exacerbating loneliness for elderly lonely people are so important, right? Because that's the group that would be the right test of your hypothesis.

• 1:36:30Dax Shepard?

  I think you and I have different levels of confidence in social science experiments, too.

• 1:36:34Speaker 02

  I certainly think that's true. And I think the more knowledgeable person has the right level of confidence.

• 1:36:38Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great. You really believe in these social experiments? And I think a lot of them are completely subjective and so easily manipulated and so subjective, that I don't think we're getting concrete answers the way you think we are.

• 1:36:53Speaker 02

  I think you vastly underestimate the rigor and complexity of designing a study that makes it through peer-reviewed journals, especially now with our standards of transparency and replication.

• 1:37:04Dax Shepard?

  I can point out like 80 of them right away that we believed as law that now have unraveled. The Jell-O experiment.

• 1:37:11Speaker 01

  Marshmallow.

• 1:37:12Dax Shepard?

  Marshmallow experiment.

• 1:37:12Speaker 02

  The marshmallow experiment is actually.

• 1:37:13Dax Shepard?

  Is completely unraveled.

• 1:37:14Speaker 02

  No, it hasn't.

• 1:37:15Dax Shepard?

  Yes, it has.

• 1:37:16Speaker 02

  That is a misunderstanding.

• 1:37:17Dax Shepard?

  Tell me what your understanding of it is.

• 1:37:18Speaker 02

  You've had Keith Payne on the show, right?

• 1:37:20Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:37:20Speaker 02

  I think Keith did the best kind of synthesis of what we know, which is, it is true that the longer kids wait for a second marshmallow, rather than eating the first one in front of them, the better grades they get, the better SAT scores they get a dozen years later. What is also true is that ability to delay gratification is built over time by being able to trust that you're gonna get the reward that was promised later.

• 1:37:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, socioeconomic.

• 1:37:43Speaker 02

  And kids who are poor don't get that. But what's interesting is, the original data that made headlines to challenge the marshmallow data were basically saying, if you control for somebody socioeconomic status, the effect goes away. You are actually taking the effect out by controlling for it. Because you're controlling for something that actually correlates with the variability that you're studying. And so it doesn't negate the marshmallow effect.

• 1:38:05Dax Shepard?

  Well, the causality was wrong.

• 1:38:07Speaker 02

  Not necessarily.

• 1:38:08Dax Shepard?

  Yes, the conclusion for 45 years was, oh, these people who have this predisposition for frontal lobe control and delayed gratification will achieve more in life.

• 1:38:20Speaker 02

  I think that's a caricature of the research. Because even in the original marshmallow studies that Walter Michel led, socioeconomic status was controlled for as a variable. And it reduced the effect. It doesn't always eliminate the effect. Now, we do it with larger samples and better statistics, and I think we can debate about where to draw that line. But what we would say is, I don't think it's an innate difference between people that drives the whole effect, right? What we learned from that is, oh, one of the ways that we can help elevate kids out of poverty is giving them an opportunity and a relationship in which they learn to trust that if they wait for the second marshmallow, it will come. And they will build the skills then that will help them power through studying for the SAT. And that actually is a skill that is built when you are not in poverty.

• 1:39:06Speaker 02

  So not bunk, just complicated.

• 1:39:09Dax Shepard?

  I still, no. All you've actually demonstrated is that kids from high socioeconomic backgrounds will have great achievement.

• 1:39:15Speaker 02

  No, but this is one of the reasons why, is because they are able to forego the short-term reward for the long-term benefit.

• 1:39:21Dax Shepard?

  Yes, that's one of the outcomes of it. But you're claiming you're measuring one thing, but you're not. You're measuring another thing. All you're measuring is socioeconomic advantage.

• 1:39:29Speaker 02

  No, because you can show the contribution of all the different mechanisms. And so you can compare, what is the relative benefit of the delayed gratification skill against the, what is the relative benefit of the network they had access to? The doors that were open for them?

• 1:39:45Dax Shepard?

  Well, no, just a house where you have a high socioeconomic base have parents that already are atypical in their delayed gratification.

• 1:39:55Speaker 02

  On average, but you can control for that, too, and see if you get the effect.

• 1:39:57Dax Shepard?

  This is where we disagree, that you are able to control over and over again, when you keep finding out, no, that's not actually what it revealed. Well, no, I make this tweak. Suffice to say, you put a little more confidence in them than I do. I think they're.

• 1:40:08Speaker 02

  Certainly do.

• 1:40:09Dax Shepard?

  I think they're fun and interesting, and they're often correct, and they're often wrong.

• 1:40:15Speaker 01

  Well, it's hard to have any of these debates if we're gonna take away all the research. Because like, we just had Angela Duckworth on, and she just said the same stuff about loneliness, remember? She said, across the board, all age groups. People are lonelier.

• 1:40:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. Oh, I don't, I don't dispute that at all. But how you conduct your experiment with the old person who's all by themselves, so you use the chat GPT and we're measuring their loneliness before and after. I have a hunch I would be skeptical of several of the metrics you're using.

• 1:40:44Speaker 01

  But you're just, but I'm sorry, going back, you said that you don't see it. You're like, I don't see it. My kids have friends, people I see have friends. And the studies say everyone, not every single person, but all age groups are lonelier and more isolated.

• 1:40:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, all of America is.

• 1:41:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:01Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes, I don't dispute that.

• 1:41:03Speaker 01

  So this is not helping. AI companions isn't helping that trend, it's making it worse.

• 1:41:09Speaker 02

  That's an interesting point, Mike. I like it.

• 1:41:10Dax Shepard?

  Yes, I agree that it is one of the variables in it. And I think we have much bigger ones that have led us to here, for us to spend the attention and time and panic about the AI. I think there's much bigger forces at play that have resulted in the loneliness because we saw it way before AI.

• 1:41:27Speaker 02

  I agree with that.

• 1:41:28Dax Shepard?

  And I also think that Jonathan Haidt is completely moral panicked about social media. I think there's a ton of conflicting data. I also think he likes to ignore that they drink less, they work out more and they're better with money. So it's like, yeah, the suicide rate went up by 25%. But yet we have these other things, we're just gonna ignore all those. So it's all very convenient, what exact metric we wanna look at.

• 1:41:50Speaker 02

  So John and I have had a lot of debates about this and I, I think I'm probably somewhere between his view and yours. But it is hard to ignore the both randomized controlled and natural experiments done where you take phones out of schools and you see what happens. Boys get bullied less, girls get better grades and have better mental health. And so I think there are actually a lot of contributing factors, cause wise. But in terms of how do we begin to solve the problem, we can make a dent.

• 1:42:15Speaker 01

  It's not gonna hurt.

• 1:42:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I don't think it's a waste of time, but I do think it is comparable to blaming SUVs for the carbon issue when we know cement and steel production are 35X that. Like, I just think it's not where the attention is, is most helpful.

• 1:42:31Speaker 02

  It may be one of the most controllable influences, though, right? If you look at the Australia.

• 1:42:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you can take it away or not.

• 1:42:37Speaker 02

  We don't need kids under 16 on social media.

• 1:42:39Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 1:42:39Speaker 02

  Which is not necessary, right? So if we can run that experiment and it helps, I'd say by all means do it. Which is, I think, one of the things that is important about the way that John brought the data together is to say, look, whether you think he's over claiming or a little bit one sided or not, I think the reforms that he recommended are all net positives for society and I think the evidence is clear on that. But let's go to the AI one. I actually think this is an easy argument for Team Monica to win. Because I think that the question is not, is AI potentially gonna help some populations more than it hurts? The question is, what is the value of AI compared to the alternative activities we could recommend? So in England, there's social prescribing, where physicians will actually write you a prescription.

• 1:43:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, to go to the gym.

• 1:43:22Speaker 02

  You could go to the gym, you could join a group or a club, you could sit on a friendship bench, right? There's a whole series of recommendations there. I don't know if that's the right intervention for a lot of people. I would say, let's go to one of our previous moral panics, video games. Social gaming is one of the best interventions we have.

• 1:43:38Dax Shepard?

  For AI use?

• 1:43:40Speaker 02

  No, for reducing loneliness, for helping people make friends.

• 1:43:43Dax Shepard?

  Oh, oh, oh.

• 1:43:44Speaker 02

  And we also know that playing video games has all sorts of cognitive benefits for kids and adults. And so I would say, look, if you're worried about a group of people who's lonely, and I think disproportionately that is young people and it's old people, I would so much rather have those people playing social video games than talking to an AI companion.

• 1:44:02Dax Shepard?

  In an order of descending preferences, yes, I would agree with that.

• 1:44:06Speaker 02

  And so we already have those tools, right? Let's not let AI become a crutch. I'm not in a panic about that. What I'm saying is, we have better options already available that will both help with your cognitive functioning and help you build real connections with human beings. Let's focus on that instead of this tool that might interfere.

• 1:44:23Speaker 01

  I also disagree with you, or maybe we have a disagreement on the percentage of people who would never be able to have a friend.

• 1:44:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:44:31Speaker 01

  I think that's actually so tiny. What if little Adam got his basketball stolen and then he just made a frie- he would be like, oh my God, and just made a friend with an AI and then he never joins the dive? It can really change the trajectory.

• 1:44:46Dax Shepard?

  I mean, I can think of that scenario, that's plausible. I just don't know that it's reached the epidemic level that society is, is responding.

• 1:44:55Speaker 02

  I agree with that.

• 1:44:56Speaker 01

  No, I agree.

• 1:44:56Dax Shepard?

  I think there's a big moral.

• 1:44:58Speaker 02

  I agree with that, but I think, I think we underreacted to social media. It's probably not a bad thing to exercise an abundance of caution with the most powerful technology in human history.

• 1:45:07Dax Shepard?

  Okay, here was another one. Here was one that I, I read. I'm like, where did Adam get this fucking statistic? So in the wake of those two people that got caught cheating in the players box or whatever at the football game.

• 1:45:18Speaker 01

  The Coldplay one?

• 1:45:19Dax Shepard?

  The Coldplay, that's what it was. I don't even have the right venue. Yeah, at the Coldplay concert, you immediately have this post that people that cheat are less trustworthy at work. Tell me the exact things, I don't wanna misrepresent.

• 1:45:31Speaker 02

  The econometrics on this are really strong.

• 1:45:33Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so hit.

• 1:45:34Speaker 02

  People much smarter than us have, I think, have demonstrated this about as convincingly as you could. So basically what they do is the researchers capitalize on the Ashley Madison leak. So you can see in a number of professions who is using an adult affair website. They did this with CEOs, with financial advisors, with police officers. You look at their rates of misconduct in their job. And if you look at the Ashley Madison sample compared to match pairs of, you know, otherwise similar CEOs, financial advisors and police officers, the people who cheated on their spouses were two to three times more likely to be guilty of misconduct in their jobs.

• 1:46:14Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so there's so much flawed with this. Let me just hit you with immediately.

• 1:46:18Speaker 02

  Try.

• 1:46:18Dax Shepard?

  What a terrible sample set. Of the mass amount of affairs that happen, the estimates are in the 40 to 50% range that people have affairs. So of that group of, we'll call it 100 million Americans, the amount of people that use Ashley Madison are such a very specific sect of this group. This is people that went out in public, already trusted, were so risk embracing that they entered a public website that could be leaked and was leaked. Versus two people on the space station who fall in love who are both married. These aren't even comparable groups. So the fact that we're gonna graph on to anyone's ethics what cheating means

• 1:47:00Dax Shepard?

  because the people in that video were not on Ashley Madison.

• 1:47:04Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:47:05Dax Shepard?

  So you're, you're.

• 1:47:06Speaker 02

  Oh, I wasn't attempting to equate them at all.

• 1:47:08Dax Shepard?

  It was right in the wake of it. So there's no way someone couldn't connect those two things.

• 1:47:12Speaker 02

  Fair. Okay, so I, I agree with actually everything you just said.

• 1:47:15Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:47:15Speaker 02

  So here's where I come down based on the evidence. There was a lot of debate in the wake of the Kiss Cam, which of course, as almost always happens, ended up much more hurting the woman than the man.

• 1:47:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:28Speaker 02

  And I felt like it was like Monica Lewinsky all over again. The narrative that came out was very different, right? I think they were both separated and it was maybe their first date. All of the vilification of them.

• 1:47:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they got mob, they got mob man.

• 1:47:42Speaker 01

  And it's happening again, there's like people, there's some park bench situation happening also right now, similar thing.

• 1:47:48Speaker 02

  So I didn't wanna pass judgment on them or their situation at all.

• 1:47:51Dax Shepard?

  But if you release this statistic that says that people that cheat are three times as likely to cheat at work, what are you doing?

• 1:47:57Speaker 02

  Okay, so what I was doing was responding, I'll tell you what I was doing. I think it might have been four days later.

• 1:48:03Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:48:03Speaker 02

  Okay, but what I was responding to was a bunch of people saying, it is irrelevant how you behave in your personal life to whether we can trust you on your job. And I said, not so fast, because in the extreme case of the worst cheaters, which is the Ashley Madison case.

• 1:48:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's a very convenient piece of data. It doesn't, it's not representative at all of cheaters.

• 1:48:24Speaker 02

  No, no, of course not.

• 1:48:25Dax Shepard?

  But this is how social science gets cherry picked, shamelessly and misleadingly. And when I read your thing, I was like, okay, great, Adam, let's get rid of Martin Luther King. Let's get rid of John F. Kennedy.

• 1:48:36Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:48:36Dax Shepard?

  Let's get rid of literally everyone that probably you would point to as having made the country better. We gotta throw them out of there because they cheated?

• 1:48:45Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:48:46Speaker 01

  Because Ashley Madison is not, it's something so much more than cheating.

• 1:48:50Dax Shepard?

  No, on the rung of addiction, you're, you're, you're, yeah, you're in the I go to bathhouses level of sedition.

• 1:48:57Speaker 02

  There are a number of possible explanations for it, but the point I wanted to make is, there is such a thing as, as character, right? As much shape shifting as people do, as many if then signatures as we have. The person who would never cheat on their spouse is less likely to cheat on their job and vice versa.

• 1:49:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, because they're probably the least.

• 1:49:17Dax Shepard?

  They're the most risk averse.

• 1:49:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:49:19Speaker 02

  They're the most risk averse.

• 1:49:20Dax Shepard?

  That doesn't mean they're good employees either.

• 1:49:22Speaker 02

  Except if you care about their honesty, that may matter to you. It matters to me.

• 1:49:27Speaker 01

  Job, I guess. But listen, but Adam, I don't think it's a fair statement to say someone who would never. I think there's a circumstance.

• 1:49:34Speaker 02

  Maybe you don't know if.

• 1:49:35Speaker 01

  There's no way to know that anyone would never. I think there are a lot of people you, you think, oh, they would never do something like that. And there's a circumstance in which they would.

• 1:49:46Speaker 02

  You don't think you know anyone who would never do it under any circumstances? I think I do.

• 1:49:50Speaker 01

  I really don't.

• 1:49:51Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:49:51Dax Shepard?

  My grandpa probably didn't cheat. My grandpa went to Wonder Bread Bakery 12 hours a day and worked with other men. We can't say because he died and having not cheated and my dad died cheating, that those are comparable situations. It doesn't say anything about humanity, it says a lot about context.

• 1:50:07Speaker 01

  We also know someone who we know had an affair and they're a good person. So there's this other like, you know, there's a real condemning and it's like, well, I disagree.

• 1:50:18Dax Shepard?

  This person's like, by all accounts, a dependable, wonderful, beautiful person who was in a very unique situation and then did something very regrettable.

• 1:50:27Speaker 02

  I see that point of view. I also think I know people who would never. Nobody really knows, right? I think the point here, though, is that somebody who repeatedly cheats, right, is making a statement about their lack of integrity.

• 1:50:38Dax Shepard?

  No, I think they're making a statement about their appetite for risk.

• 1:50:44Speaker 01

  Or lack of will.

• 1:50:45Speaker 02

  Or lack of concern with not crushing the person they claimed they were gonna spend their life with.

• 1:50:53Speaker 01

  There is definitely a lack of conscientiousness, there's a lack of, you could say, respect. Depends, depends on, I think, the situation, but I just think to say they're all bad.

• 1:51:05Speaker 02

  No, I wouldn't say that.

• 1:51:06Speaker 01

  Or that they're all dishonest at work is a little tricky.

• 1:51:09Dax Shepard?

  They don't have character or integrity.

• 1:51:11Speaker 01

  They're very sweeping.

• 1:51:12Speaker 02

  I don't think I disagree with, with any of the, the points. I just think. The nuance in the statement I was making is getting lost.

• 1:51:19Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:51:19Speaker 02

  Which is, we see this in organizational psychology. There's a whole literature on integrity testing that goes back half a century. And we can predict your likelihood of lying, cheating, and stealing in a whole range of jobs and tasks. From looking at some very well-designed tests where you don't realize that what you're revealing by, in a lot of the questions, you're asked to predict what other people would do. And if you think other people are cheaters, you're more likely to be a cheater yourself.

• 1:51:47Dax Shepard?

  You assess other people on a level that you assess yourself.

• 1:51:49Speaker 02

  There's a projection bias there.

• 1:51:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:51:51Speaker 02

  And so, my point is just that the person who assumes everybody else is dishonest is a dishonest person. And if they reveal a pattern of that dishonesty consistently, repeatedly over time, across situations at home, we should not immediately give them a pass at work and assume there's just a compartmentalized self.

• 1:52:09Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I disagree. Martin Luther King, how are you gonna account for Martin Luther King? He had orgies. His role in his job had nothing to do with his having orgies. He couldn't have been more effective in the civil rights movement.

• 1:52:24Speaker 02

  I'm just speaking probabilistically.

• 1:52:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but you really gotta ignore most of the people that you and I admire.

• 1:52:31Speaker 02

  I sure hope not.

• 1:52:32Dax Shepard?

  I could go through a list, and I know you would admire these people. You admire Martin Luther King, don't you?

• 1:52:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I also know going-

• 1:52:39Dax Shepard?

  Do you admire John F. Kennedy?

• 1:52:41Speaker 02

  Less than MLK.

• 1:52:42Dax Shepard?

  Well, of course. But do you admire JFK?

• 1:52:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, look, I think it's possible for people to have such, this goes back to the ambivalent relationships discussion.

• 1:52:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:51Speaker 02

  It's possible for someone to have such extraordinary virtues that you're less concerned about their vices. Or that you're willing to tolerate their vices because of the impact they could have on the world.

• 1:52:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm only pointing out that you're saying there is no compartmentalizing, and that if you are this way in your private life, you're this way in your public or your work life. And I'm giving you examples of people that that's not true at all.

• 1:53:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:53:11Speaker 01

  It also depends on the job, maybe?

• 1:53:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I don't have any evidence on did MLK ever commit tax fraud, right? So if you actually line up the type of integrity, maybe there's, actually, he was guilty of plagiarism on his job.

• 1:53:26Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:53:26Speaker 02

  He had a bunch of refrains that he did not source properly. I actually think his dissertation was partially plagiarized, if I remember what I read correctly.

• 1:53:34Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:53:34Speaker 02

  And so now, I'm like, okay, there is a pattern of cheating professionally and personally.

• 1:53:38Dax Shepard?

  Hmm, okay.

• 1:53:39Speaker 02

  Now, does that mean I don't want him as civil rights leader? No!

• 1:53:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:53:42Speaker 02

  He was an extraordinary civil rights leader, and he was extraordinarily selfless. But being selfless and being honest are two different virtues.

• 1:53:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:51Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 1:53:51Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 1:53:52Speaker 02

  This is so interesting.

• 1:53:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:53Speaker 02

  But yeah, I'm just saying, look, if somebody is a serial philanderer, and you're a board of directors choosing a CEO, you might wanna take that into account.

• 1:54:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, if they're on Ashley Madison, probably not a great idea.

• 1:54:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I mean, I don't think they probably are caught up in an addiction if they're on Ashley Madison.

• 1:54:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:11Dax Shepard?

  I definitely think we need to draw distinctions between someone who drinks on the weekends and an alcoholic, or someone who had an affair at a space station, and someone who's on a website fucking five days a week.

• 1:54:21Speaker 02

  Fully agree. And what I probably am guilty of here is putting the nuance in the caption of the post, right, when I described the study, but pushing back against the oversimplified argument on the other side, which is the, doesn't matter at all. It's irrelevant how people act in their personal life. I'm like, no, you don't check your values at the office store.

• 1:54:38Dax Shepard?

  I don't care at all when I'm working with somebody, whether or not they're in an open relationship or a closed relationship. I don't care at all.

• 1:54:46Speaker 02

  Right? That's a little different.

• 1:54:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, or if they've had affairs or not had affairs. That doesn't, to me, have anything to do with me. I think that has to do with their partner in them.

• 1:54:56Speaker 01

  Maybe on the job. Some jobs don't require honesty.

• 1:55:00Speaker 02

  Wow. That's a scary thought.

• 1:55:03Speaker 01

  I think that's true.

• 1:55:04Speaker 02

  It might be more important in some jobs than others.

• 1:55:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:55:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to think, like, yeah, if you're a lawyer, that's probably a problem if you're dishonest, you know?

• 1:55:15Dax Shepard?

  Or an asset.

• 1:55:15Speaker 01

  Actually, they all are lies. So, I mean, I don't know, but-

• 1:55:18Dax Shepard?

  They're great at creating a version of the truth.

• 1:55:21Speaker 01

  If you're a doctor, I mean, there, yes, there are things.

• 1:55:22Speaker 02

  But dishonesty is always a trust problem at the end of the day, right? And if you have a job where you're collaborating with other people, okay, you could say an actor is a consensual liar professionally.

• 1:55:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:55:33Speaker 02

  But you certainly don't wanna hire the actor who's gonna renege on your contract the moment they get something better.

• 1:55:38Speaker 01

  Well, of course.

• 1:55:39Dax Shepard?

  This is kind of my issue, is that you want it to bleed over into a lot of things that I don't think it does. So, my doctor, I don't know if my doctor's cheating on his wife. I don't care.

• 1:55:49Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:55:49Dax Shepard?

  My doctor's not incentivized to lie to me.

• 1:55:53Speaker 02

  Could your doctor be incentivized to give you a bunch of unnecessary tests and profit from them?

• 1:55:58Dax Shepard?

  That is possible.

• 1:55:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you're just not that worried about that outcome.

• 1:56:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm not worried about that. I don't care if my doctor's cheating on his wife. I don't care if my lawyer's cheating on her husband. I'd have to force that into-

• 1:56:10Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:56:11Dax Shepard?

  -my relationship with them, because I'm not the spouse.

• 1:56:14Speaker 02

  I'm not gonna interview them on it, but I would prefer not to let somebody who is violating integrity knowingly into my life, if I can avoid it.

• 1:56:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you have a really moralistic bar. You and Gladwell often argue about this, and I, I agree. I think you-

• 1:56:30Speaker 01

  It's so interesting.

• 1:56:31Dax Shepard?

  You have a very, I don't know, to me, it feels a tiny bit unrealistic. I think really what you're evaluating your business relationship with is, is it reciprocal and beneficial to me? That's what you're really doing. You can say integrity is a prerequisite, but I don't think, I believe that's how we assess our incentives. I think, is it mutually beneficial or not?

• 1:56:52Speaker 02

  By the way, I mostly agree with that. I've tried to get more disciplined about assessing integrity before I collaborate with someone.

• 1:56:57Dax Shepard?

  Have you been burned a lot?

• 1:56:58Speaker 02

  I've had a few collaborations where I've walked away saying, if I knew then what I know now, I never would have done anything with that person.

• 1:57:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:06Speaker 02

  And so, that forces more caution.

• 1:57:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:09Speaker 02

  And I don't think I'd know with high confidence, but I think I can make better probabilistic judgments now than I could have 15 years ago.

• 1:57:17Speaker 01

  Do you think colleagues at Wharton should be fired if they have an affair?

• 1:57:24Dax Shepard?

  Ooh, really? Good question, Monica.

• 1:57:26Speaker 02

  Because you should be fired for either underperforming in your job or violating the values of your institution, and that is not one of our-

• 1:57:34Dax Shepard?

  That's not one of the tenants.

• 1:57:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:57:35Speaker 02

  It's not in your job description, it's not in the values, but should you be fired for sexual harassment? Absolutely.

• 1:57:40Speaker 01

  Yes, of course.

• 1:57:41Speaker 02

  That's a clear-

• 1:57:42Dax Shepard?

  Trying to date students? No, yeah, we gotta get you out of there.

• 1:57:44Speaker 02

  Absolutely unacceptable.

• 1:57:45Speaker 01

  We're all horrible.

• 1:57:46Speaker 02

  Get out of that. This reminds me of something that we have to talk about.

• 1:57:50Dax Shepard?

  Oh, great.

• 1:57:51Speaker 02

  Which is another fight we haven't had yet.

• 1:57:53Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:57:54Speaker 02

  Monica, I don't know if you are aware of this. So, you read Alison's book, Dax, and very kindly recommended it.

• 1:57:59Dax Shepard?

  It's really, really great.

• 1:58:00Speaker 02

  Thank you. I love her new one even more.

• 1:58:03Dax Shepard?

  Well, she's already written another.

• 1:58:04Speaker 02

  It's like, out now.

• 1:58:05Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow, what's the name of it?

• 1:58:07Speaker 02

  It's called Lump.

• 1:58:08Dax Shepard?

  Lump.

• 1:58:08Speaker 02

  A memoir and eloquent reflections.

• 1:58:11Speaker 01

  Ooh, great.

• 1:58:12Speaker 02

  And it's poetry and prose about her experience with breast cancer.

• 1:58:15Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:58:16Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:58:16Speaker 02

  Blew me away, as did the first one. And, Dax, I remember you being surprised that I could judge that Alison was a beautiful writer. And you thought that I would be biased and couldn't accurately assess her work because I love her.

• 1:58:32Dax Shepard?

  I don't remember this, but I'll go along with it.

• 1:58:34Speaker 02

  And I wanted to fight with you about that.

• 1:58:36Dax Shepard?

  Oh, that doesn't sound like something I believe.

• 1:58:39Speaker 02

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:58:40Dax Shepard?

  I think when your partner writes something, or does anything that will be public-facing, you have a very quick and natural, oh, boy, this reflects on both of us.

• 1:58:52Speaker 01

  You, the general you.

• 1:58:54Dax Shepard?

  Yes, like-

• 1:58:54Speaker 01

  Not you.

• 1:58:55Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:58:56Speaker 02

  So you think your guard goes up because you're trying to protect-

• 1:58:58Dax Shepard?

  I think you acknowledge there is a certain level of shared embarrassment that's a potential. And so, I think it's natural to read or consume the thing with a tingle of fear. I think that's kind of natural, like, oh, is this gonna be, is this gonna be embarrassing for her and I? The stakes are different, because you're a known intellectual that's on TV, and you have a wife, and now she's gonna put something out into the public-facing thing. And I think it would be very natural for it to cross your mind that this will be a reflection on us as a unit. You don't have a distance from it. It's not like when a student turns in a paper, you go, oh, no, this will reflect on me as a professor.

• 1:59:42Dax Shepard?

  You have a very healthy distance. So I do think it's murky when you're in a relationship that's public-facing. I'm aware of it. Some of my decisions are, I don't wanna embarrass her. There's things I'd say on here that wouldn't embarrass me, but I won't do because I don't wanna embarrass her. So, I think there is different criteria and different pressures when a loved one is putting out a work of art in your known entity.

• 2:00:06Speaker 02

  Well, luckily, Kristen is relatively insensitive to embarrassment, because you have a pretty long leash, I think.

• 2:00:12Dax Shepard?

  I have a long leash, but mine would be even longer, as you might guess.

• 2:00:15Speaker 02

  I could do that. So we agree on this, but for different reasons.

• 2:00:17Dax Shepard?

  Tell me.

• 2:00:18Speaker 02

  I thought where you were was, you're just too biased, and, you know, you're gonna see the good in the person no matter what, which is not where you came down.

• 2:00:24Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 2:00:25Speaker 02

  I think you can see the people you love most accurately for a different reason. I think yours is right in some cases, but I think the, the other thing is, like, when you really care about someone, you want what's best for them.

• 2:00:35Speaker 01

  Of course, yes.

• 2:00:36Speaker 02

  And so, the last thing you wanna do, whether it reflects on you or not, is let them embarrass themselves.

• 2:00:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:00:41Speaker 02

  And you wanna, you wanna help them put something out there that's great. It's like, this is what every good mentor does. They protect you from the worst version of yourself, and that's what a good partner should do, too.

• 2:00:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:50Dax Shepard?

  But, again, another added layer that's in the mix is, if your wife writes something about her personal story, I have no option other than to take that at face value. I'm gonna assume that that's what it was. Now, you know her extremely well, and you now are evaluating whether she got her real voice out or not. I don't know what her real voice is, so again, I have so much distance that none of that's gonna get complicated for me.

• 2:01:19Speaker 02

  That tracks. Maybe then you were surprised about something else, which is that I would have married someone who could write.

• 2:01:25Speaker 01

  What did you say? I'm confused at what he said.

• 2:01:28Speaker 02

  I think it was, it was on the podcast, because I remember hearing it and being surprised.

• 2:01:32Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 2:01:33Speaker 02

  You said something like, "I didn't expect this to be good."

• 2:01:36Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:01:37Dax Shepard?

  Well.

• 2:01:39Speaker 01

  Well, maybe it's just surprising that two people who are connected are both really good at the same thing.

• 2:01:43Dax Shepard?

  That's abnormal and low percentage. Also, when a friend reaches out and says, "Read my significant other's thing."

• 2:01:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:52Dax Shepard?

  You're preparing for the worst.

• 2:01:54Speaker 01

  It's fifty, it's fifty percent.

• 2:01:56Dax Shepard?

  To me through the other channels, which is like, "Oh, this book's getting a lot of attention. You should check it out." This is, in essence, a favor. It's a favor. It's a favor. So, when you're doing a favor, your expectations are low. You're like, "This is a favor. I'm gonna probably get through this book."

• 2:02:14Speaker 01

  Right. So then it's a problem.

• 2:02:15Dax Shepard?

  And then lo and behold, I loved the book.

• 2:02:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:18Dax Shepard?

  So I just think that's very honest. Like, generally when a friend asks you to read their thing, or their loved one's thing, or their child's thing, I think you have a realistic expectation. This might not be at the level it could, it should be.

• 2:02:30Speaker 02

  Okay, that resonates completely with one small exception.

• 2:02:33Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:02:33Speaker 02

  Which is, from an integrity standpoint, I would never ask you to read something as a favor. And for you to question my judgment and taste, to think I might have given you something that wasn't good or worth your time, I was like, "Oh, alright."

• 2:02:47Speaker 01

  But that's the blinder. That's the blinder, the love blinder.

• 2:02:51Speaker 02

  Potentially.

• 2:02:51Speaker 01

  Of course you could, of course you would send him something your wife wrote, and that you might think is beautiful, because it came from your wife.

• 2:02:58Dax Shepard?

  Buddy, this is where our priorities are so different. I would like it about you, if your wife wrote a piece of shit, and you knew it was a big, steaming pile of shit. You said, "Fuck it, I'm still gonna try to help her."

• 2:03:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:12Dax Shepard?

  I would admire that about her. I would know how hard it'd be to send that email. And I go, "This person did something that was very uncomfortable for them."

• 2:03:21Speaker 01

  It's like, he loves it so much.

• 2:03:23Speaker 02

  And I would look at that person and think, "Oh, where is your taste and judgment? And you could be a better partner."

• 2:03:29Dax Shepard?

  Yes. But I would really, the shittier the book, probably the more I would respect you.

• 2:03:36Speaker 02

  Wow. Okay, well, I really missed the boat on that one. Okay, two other things we have to talk about. One is, embarrassment just came up.

• 2:03:43Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:03:44Speaker 02

  I can't remember where this was, on one of your episodes, Monica, you kind of pointed out that Dax likes being embarrassed.

• 2:03:51Speaker 01

  Oh, he loves it.

• 2:03:52Speaker 02

  And he admitted it.

• 2:03:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:53Speaker 02

  I wanna know why. As a psychologist, this is endlessly interesting to me. Because normally embarrassment is something people are supposed to avoid. It's one of the self-conscious emotions that's supposed to protect us from repeating whatever mistake we made socially.

• 2:04:06Dax Shepard?

  Yep.

• 2:04:06Speaker 02

  And for you to seek that out is the opposite of what should be your primate reaction.

• 2:04:11Dax Shepard?

  Above all things, I'm a novelty junkie. And so it is such a unique feeling to be embarrassed. I mean, it is like, your whole body starts vibrating. There's a physiological component that is like, unmissable. You know, Monica starts crying immediately. She walks into walls and stuff. It's like, it's so...

• 2:04:31Speaker 01

  I know. Okay, I walk through a wall, then I cry.

• 2:04:35Dax Shepard?

  But you could have easily walked into a second wall right after, because you were disoriented from the embarrassment.

• 2:04:41Speaker 01

  So embarrassing.

• 2:04:41Dax Shepard?

  And so, I immediately go to two things. One is, it's so novel. And I just love novelty. It's why I was a drug addict. It's like, how else can we feel? I'll do anything to feel differently.

• 2:04:52Speaker 02

  So this is thrill-seeking for you, in a way?

• 2:04:54Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's just like, it's novelty. It's like, "Oh my god, this is crazy." And I feel like the world's staring at me. And all of it is just like, I can't help but notice how bizarre the feeling is, and I kinda like it. And then secondly is, anytime I'm embarrassed, I immediately know, "Oh, I've got a story." And my trade in life is stories. That's what I peddle.

• 2:05:13Speaker 02

  This is like a stand-up looking for material.

• 2:05:15Dax Shepard?

  Yes, it's like, it's happening, and I can already hear myself telling the chain of events that led to me on my back in the movie theater with the popcorn in the air.

• 2:05:23Speaker 02

  Okay, I had that one. It's good material. I did not have the, just the sensation, the thrill.

• 2:05:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:05:28Speaker 02

  The other two that I was thinking about. One is, I think there's a gendered component to this.

• 2:05:34Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 2:05:34Speaker 02

  Which is, women being embarrassed is much more difficult than men.

• 2:05:39Dax Shepard?

  That is against the common saying, which I agree with, "As a woman's greatest fear, she'll be murdered by a man, and a man's greatest fear is that he'll be embarrassed in public." And I think that's true. I think men, because of the way, evolutionarily, our status was dependent on this.

• 2:05:56Speaker 01

  Like, if they're humiliated.

• 2:05:56Speaker 02

  This is precarious manhood.

• 2:05:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So I actually disagree. I think, I think being embarrassed for men is like, dangerous. That's why men have this crazy, have you ever witnessed, it's like, a guy, he's taking you for a ride in his new car, and he fucking loses control, or whatever. There's numerous ways men can fuck up in front of you. And men all immediately, instinctually act like it did not happen. It wasn't embarrassing.

• 2:06:20Speaker 01

  They get angry.

• 2:06:21Dax Shepard?

  If it's a threat, if they get really embarrassed, then they get angry. Now we're all in danger.

• 2:06:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:06:25Dax Shepard?

  So we know instinctually to like, pretend that when a man makes a mistake, it didn't happen. And I don't think women have that with each other, or we have it with women.

• 2:06:33Speaker 02

  If the threat is to your competence or your strength, and it makes you look weak or incapable.

• 2:06:39Dax Shepard?

  Now you've got to display immediately to regain your status.

• 2:06:43Speaker 02

  But not if you seem insensitive, which is something that a woman would get punished for more. The reason I was thinking about this as gendered is because most embarrassment happens because you violate a social norm, I think. And women get penalized much more for doing that than men do, because they're expected to be socially and emotionally skilled. And so I was wondering if that was part of it, that you just don't experience the cost of certain kinds of embarrassment, because you can get away with it. And your strength is demonstrated. It's built in.

• 2:07:09Dax Shepard?

  I have so many privileges. Like, I'm a fucking 6'2" white dude, and I weirdly have taken it to a place where it's actually a display of great bravery and confidence.

• 2:07:19Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:07:20Dax Shepard?

  Right? If I can marinate in my humility, I think other men are like, "Fuck, that's gangster." I actually think it's like a counterintuitive reaction.

• 2:07:28Speaker 02

  Okay, this goes to my favorite hunch, which is, I think it's a way of getting attention without being a narcissist.

• 2:07:33Dax Shepard?

  I disagree with that, because that would imply that I initiated it.

• 2:07:38Speaker 02

  Fair.

• 2:07:38Dax Shepard?

  I can promise, if I initiated it, it's not embarrassment. Because that's me doing Frito in Idiocracy. I'm doing lots of embarrassing things, but I've chosen to do it.

• 2:07:46Speaker 01

  You're in control of that.

• 2:07:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so I'm not experiencing any of the fun stuff. When I watch it, I get very embarrassed, but not while I was doing it.

• 2:07:55Speaker 02

  But if something happens that embarrasses you, right? A narcissist would want positive attention. You then being able to tell the story, or have everyone laugh at you, it keeps people's eyes on you, which is part of the, the joy of being an extrovert, and being in the spotlight. But not in a way that's elevating you above other people, and that feels okay.

• 2:08:13Dax Shepard?

  Right, like if I bench pressed a bunch in front of other people, versus I fell down and laughed at myself.

• 2:08:19Speaker 02

  Yes. It's humble attention.

• 2:08:20Dax Shepard?

  Preferable, for sure.

• 2:08:21Speaker 02

  Exactly. Okay. Good. Okay, we are on to something here. This is so fascinating. I actually wanna get a group of doctoral students to study this.

• 2:08:29Dax Shepard?

  Embarrassment?

• 2:08:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the pleasure you get out of it.

• 2:08:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I wonder how unique or not unique it is. But what was so fun is, so my thirteen-year-old, she thinks the most embarrassing thing someone can do is run with a backpack on. Which I, you know, I don't know why that is, but for her, that's really huge.

• 2:08:45Speaker 02

  Such a funny image.

• 2:08:46Dax Shepard?

  And she found herself in a situation where it's like, the crosswalk was, she thought she could make it. A lot of kids were there watching. She ran with her backpack on, then I think she tripped with her backpack on. She goes, "Oh my god, dad, it was so embarrassing." I could just tell by her delivery, it seemed like maybe she enjoyed it. And I go, "Did you like it at all?" And she goes, "Yeah, I love it. It feels so weird." And I'm like, "Yeah, that's my thing too." It just feels so weird.

• 2:09:13Speaker 01

  It can be funny in retrospect. In the moment, it's embarrassing, but later, when you visualize the backpack and the tripping, it's funny. So maybe with some time, you're like, "That's hilarious."

• 2:09:24Speaker 02

  This is the comedy equals tragedy plus time.

• 2:09:26Speaker 01

  Right, exactly.

• 2:09:28Dax Shepard?

  I just think there's a lot of things that boys don't know, that are very counterintuitive, that are actually huge displays of strength. Saying to another boy, "I'm scared. I don't wanna do that," is immediately admirable, and is read as bravery.

• 2:09:45Speaker 02

  If you do it with confidence.

• 2:09:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:47Speaker 02

  You have to show a degree of security when you do that, right? And I think most boys, if they're scared, what comes across is, like, "I am timid, and I am weak." And you do it in a way that says, "Yeah, I don't care what you think of me."

• 2:10:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Or even with daughter, you know, another one, little one, someone said something shitty at school, and I said, "You wouldn't believe this, but the fucking most gangster thing you could say is like, 'Oh wow, that hurt my feelings.'" Because every other little girl's gonna be like, "Well, that's what I wanna say, but I don't have the courage to say that. It would shock you." And then that other person, there's no wiggle room.

• 2:10:21Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:10:22Dax Shepard?

  There's no way to play that off. Like, "You just hurt my feelings. You deal with that now." It's not a retort, it's not a burn back. It's just like, "Mm, let me tell you what just happened. That hurt my feelings." That's such a victory and counterintuitive. But I think there's a lot of little things, tropes of masculinity, that actually the opposite is the thing that everyone will think you're so brave for.

• 2:10:40Speaker 02

  If you know how to balance on the tightrope.

• 2:10:42Dax Shepard?

  Telling your partner, your female partner, the things you're insecure about. We think, "Oh god, she won't be attracted to me now." She'll go, "Fuck, I've been with a million men. They were all too cowardly to tell me this. This dude's a fucking stud." That's the hack.

• 2:10:59Speaker 02

  It is.

• 2:11:00Dax Shepard?

  It's so counterintuitive.

• 2:11:01Speaker 02

  I am all in for that.

• 2:11:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. "Adam, I love you. It's always so fun."

• 2:11:06Speaker 02

  I like you.

• 2:11:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:07Speaker 02

  I'm not, I'm not at love yet.

• 2:11:09Speaker 01

  You're not a companion.

• 2:11:10Speaker 02

  We're not companions.

• 2:11:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you're pals.

• 2:11:12Speaker 02

  What I really just want is for you to love the book. I don't care if you love me.

• 2:11:15Dax Shepard?

  That's a terrible, fuck, Adam. That just opened up another hour debate.

• 2:11:20Speaker 01

  Oh, no!

• 2:11:21Dax Shepard?

  No, you should want me to love you for you, because you're intrinsically lovable regardless of your accomplishments or your out.

• 2:11:28Speaker 02

  No, no, no. I think I take for granted that we have a level of, I think from the day we met, we respected each other.

• 2:11:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

• 2:11:34Speaker 02

  And have built a bond around that, as you profess you wanted to do. And so if I have uncertainty or insecurity, it's, "Okay, now I'm putting something out in the world that I spent a couple of years on, and I'm at the beginning of sharing it, and here's somebody who has engaged with it really thoroughly."

• 2:11:49Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 2:11:49Speaker 02

  I wanna make sure that he thinks it was a worthwhile project.

• 2:11:52Dax Shepard?

  Yes. I loved it. I love everything you write. You're a very, very good writer. You're a very entertaining writer. You're not pedantic. It's not of slog to get educated by you. It's a pleasure.

• 2:12:04Speaker 01

  Most fun class, seven years.

• 2:12:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, seven years running, and now, you know, among those thirty, they get some participation awards over at Wharton. But the book is called Vibe: The Secrets of Strong Connections in a Lonely World. Adam, such a delight. I can't wait for you to come back.

• 2:12:20Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 2:12:21Speaker 02

  Always so fun to be here. I learned a lot.

• 2:12:33Dax Shepard?

  How did it go?

• 2:12:35Speaker 01

  Good.

• 2:12:35Dax Shepard?

  It was, it took a little while. Did you do other things?

• 2:12:38Speaker 01

  I just peed.

• 2:12:39Dax Shepard?

  Are you sure?

• 2:12:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:12:41Dax Shepard?

  You didn't touch up your?

• 2:12:43Speaker 01

  A little.

• 2:12:44Dax Shepard?

  Okay. You're talking about gaslighting. You're on high alert for gaslighting and you just looked directly at me and said, all you did was pee.

• 2:12:50Speaker 01

  Stop.

• 2:12:51Dax Shepard?

  Stop it.

• 2:12:51Speaker 01

  I forgot about that part.

• 2:12:54Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:12:54Speaker 01

  It wasn't on purpose that I left that out.

• 2:12:57Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:12:57Speaker 01

  Okay. I just, I forgot that I did go upstairs and reapply my lipstick.

• 2:13:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, sure. A little powder?

• 2:13:05Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:13:05Dax Shepard?

  No powder?

• 2:13:06Speaker 01

  Foundation.

• 2:13:09Dax Shepard?

  There we go.

• 2:13:10Speaker 01

  Just a little extra.

• 2:13:11Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 2:13:12Speaker 01

  Cause.

• 2:13:13Dax Shepard?

  Go ahead.

• 2:13:14Speaker 01

  My period's coming and my face looks bad. No, if it doesn't come now, we are in trouble.

• 2:13:20Dax Shepard?

  Do you like having your feet on the edge there? Or do you want them fully on top?

• 2:13:23Speaker 01

  I like it on the edge. I live on the edge.

• 2:13:26Dax Shepard?

  Sure. What everyone says about you. Monica loves living on the edge.

• 2:13:30Speaker 01

  Hey?

• 2:13:31Dax Shepard?

  You're safety minded and you know that.

• 2:13:32Speaker 01

  I am, but I've also done a lot of things that some would constitute living on the edge.

• 2:13:37Dax Shepard?

  I found out today, ran from the cops in camp.

• 2:13:40Speaker 01

  Exactly. Check out that Armchair Anonymous, Study Abroad, if you want to hear about that.

• 2:13:45Dax Shepard?

  I want to hear that update.

• 2:13:47Speaker 01

  You know what's, this looks disgusting. I'm taking that off. Don't look at it.

• 2:13:51Dax Shepard?

  I saw it. Was that from the fluid inside or your lips that dirty?

• 2:13:56Speaker 01

  Who's to say?

• 2:13:58Dax Shepard?

  Who could know?

• 2:14:01Speaker 01

  Hopefully the liquid inside.

• 2:14:02Dax Shepard?

  What were you telling me earlier? And I told you to shut up, save it for the fact check.

• 2:14:05Speaker 01

  You asked why I was going in the wrong direction yesterday.

• 2:14:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, we got very confused because we, we finished recording yesterday.

• 2:14:12Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:14:13Dax Shepard?

  You told me you were going to Cara.

• 2:14:14Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:14:15Dax Shepard?

  We had a long talk about the mosquitoes.

• 2:14:17Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:14:18Dax Shepard?

  And if you were to go to Cara, you would have headed down western.

• 2:14:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:14:22Dax Shepard?

  You'd have gone south.

• 2:14:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:14:23Dax Shepard?

  And then independently of that, I came inside.

• 2:14:26Speaker 01

  Probably also.

• 2:14:27Dax Shepard?

  Probably on foot.

• 2:14:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:29Dax Shepard?

  I come inside, I pitched to the Lincoln and KB, hey, does anyone want to go get some all time?

• 2:14:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:35Dax Shepard?

  They're up for it. So we hop in the car pretty quickly after we finished recording. And we're driving now there, which would be east.

• 2:14:44Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:14:44Dax Shepard?

  And we see in traffic next to us, directly next was you sitting in your car. You're already coming, somehow you've already gone east and now you're returning west.

• 2:14:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:14:55Dax Shepard?

  And it's very confusing for us and we're honking and you are, God knows where you were at mentally. Lincoln's screaming your name.

• 2:15:04Speaker 01

  What?

• 2:15:04Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 2:15:05Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 2:15:06Dax Shepard?

  And then we were off.

• 2:15:07Speaker 01

  Where was it? Like, was it like?

• 2:15:09Dax Shepard?

  Just before Vermont.

• 2:15:11Speaker 01

  I had just turned right then. I had just turned right.

• 2:15:14Dax Shepard?

  To redirect.

• 2:15:15Speaker 01

  So, okay, this is what happened.

• 2:15:20Speaker 01

  So I went, it's a sad story, actually.

• 2:15:22Dax Shepard?

  Okay. I have tissue, so don't worry. I can handle it.

• 2:15:26Speaker 01

  I was gonna go to Cara as I planned, but then I thought, no, I was just there yesterday.

• 2:15:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:32Speaker 01

  I already got mosquito bitten. I already saw Leslie bib.

• 2:15:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:37Speaker 01

  I want to mix it up today.

• 2:15:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. See what else you can see.

• 2:15:40Speaker 01

  And I was starving.

• 2:15:41Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:15:42Speaker 01

  You know when you're starving, like what do I, what do I put in my body? What do I want? What do I need? I need food fast.

• 2:15:48Dax Shepard?

  Okay, really quick, that's already interesting and different about us. When I'm starving, I know exactly what I want. It's when I'm not very starvy that I'm like, well, that would be good. But when I'm starving, like I know what I want.

• 2:16:00Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:16:01Dax Shepard?

  And it was all time, as it turned out.

• 2:16:02Speaker 01

  I, okay, well, so I decided I'm not gonna go to Cara. I'm gonna go somewhere else, but I didn't know where. And so I just got in my car and I started driving.

• 2:16:15Dax Shepard?

  Aimlessly and hungry, low blood sugar, not thinking.

• 2:16:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, not all that clear. What?

• 2:16:21Dax Shepard?

  Not doing your best thinking.

• 2:16:22Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, I thought you said something about stinky.

• 2:16:24Dax Shepard?

  No. I'm sure that's post meal.

• 2:16:27Speaker 01

  So then, yeah. So then I'm, I go up north and then east, okay? And I think maybe I'll, I'll go to all time. I didn't know that was your plan, so I'm really glad I didn't go. That'd be so embarrassing.

• 2:16:40Dax Shepard?

  You'd have to sit with us and have lunch.

• 2:16:42Speaker 01

  No, I'd be like at my table by myself and then you guys over there and I'll just be like, hey.

• 2:16:47Dax Shepard?

  That's not what would have happened.

• 2:16:49Speaker 01

  Hey guys.

• 2:16:49Dax Shepard?

  Rudy said, money's here, sit down.

• 2:16:52Speaker 01

  It's nice to see you again.

• 2:16:55Dax Shepard?

  10 minutes later.

• 2:16:56Speaker 01

  So yeah, anyway, I start driving to all time, but then I realized, you know what? No, I want In-N-Out. That's what I want. And I want it now. And I want to go to Sunset Tower after and that's where I want to work. This is my plan, okay? Unfortunately, I'm heading in the wrong direction for that plan.

• 2:17:15Dax Shepard?

  That's right.

• 2:17:16Speaker 01

  Additionally, and this is the sad part.

• 2:17:19Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 2:17:19Speaker 01

  There was a big car accident and it was a, why? Are you laughing?

• 2:17:25Dax Shepard?

  I'm not. This is the sad part of the story.

• 2:17:29Speaker 01

  I saw you laughing in your head.

• 2:17:30Dax Shepard?

  I'm already sad.

• 2:17:32Speaker 01

  It was a three car.

• 2:17:34Dax Shepard?

  Pile up?

• 2:17:34Speaker 01

  Okay, what's the difference between a pileup and a?

• 2:17:37Dax Shepard?

  A pileup is when one car has stopped and then another one collides into it and then a third car collides into that.

• 2:17:43Speaker 01

  I know, but it's hard for me to know what happened. It's just three cars were involved. I didn't see the collision, but I want to call it a pileup.

• 2:17:49Dax Shepard?

  Was it in the middle of an intersection?

• 2:17:52Speaker 01

  No, but it was, it was where one of the tributary.

• 2:17:57Dax Shepard?

  Arterial roads?

• 2:17:59Speaker 01

  Let, like someone was clearly pulling out and then a whole mess happened and it looked bad.

• 2:18:04Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:18:05Speaker 01

  So I felt sad, um, but I'll, and I, and you know, it's one of those things where I was like, what? Why is there so much traffic? You know, I was getting mad.

• 2:18:13Dax Shepard?

  Sure. Well, you were, you were in low blood sugar. You were really hungry.

• 2:18:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I was going the wrong way and, and I'm in traffic. I was like, this is horrible. I'm just sitting here. But then I saw that and I was just like, what am I? Yeah, I was like, what an idiot.

• 2:18:27Dax Shepard?

  You know, it does immediately make me think, I don't know how it was for you growing up, but when, where I lived in Michigan, when we would drive to say, where I worked in Troy, Michigan, it was like a 30 minute drive down the highway. And my mom, when she'd come home from work, I swear once a week she'd be like, ah, I saw, you know, they were putting someone in a body bag or the jaws of life were out. Like you saw, people were going through windshields. Like people used to get so mangled in car accidents. The, the, the safety of cars has improved so dramatically that it is very rare you're seeing someone super injured. We have airbags, seatbelts are mandatory, there's analog brakes, there's anti, you know, there's traction control, there's stability track.

• 2:19:11Dax Shepard?

  Like things have changed. Like that little thing you saw.

• 2:19:15Speaker 01

  Don't say little thing.

• 2:19:16Dax Shepard?

  In 86 in my town in Milford, probably someone's through a windshield.

• 2:19:19Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know what happened.

• 2:19:21Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:19:21Speaker 01

  Okay?

• 2:19:22Dax Shepard?

  My hunch is they were all outside shooting the shit.

• 2:19:24Speaker 01

  No, they weren't. They weren't. I saw one guy and he was on his phone.

• 2:19:27Dax Shepard?

  That's good.

• 2:19:29Speaker 01

  Anyway, so I'm trying, so then I'm like, oh, I'm, that's so, like, who am I? I'm like, eh, I need to get to In-N-Out. And these people are having the worst day.

• 2:19:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:38Speaker 01

  Ever. So then I finally am able to turn right. I was like, it was the closest turn right was Vermont. So I did that and then I turned right. And then I guess you saw me. Yeah, I guess you saw me and I didn't see you or hear you or anything.

• 2:19:59Dax Shepard?

  You were out to sea.

• 2:20:00Speaker 01

  This is, no, this is part of the problem, okay, with honkers. Cause you know, I, I hate honkers, but this is partly why. Okay.

• 2:20:10Dax Shepard?

  You, what, you were gonna put it on a silver platter and I'm not gonna take a bite? What are you talking about?

• 2:20:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:20:16Dax Shepard?

  Be more careful with your language.

• 2:20:17Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:20:20Speaker 01

  So I, I hate people who honk.

• 2:20:23Dax Shepard?

  There we go.

• 2:20:23Speaker 01

  And part of it is this, because now you, you just hear people honking all the time.

• 2:20:27Dax Shepard?

  You file it as white noise.

• 2:20:28Speaker 01

  It is white noise and then that's annoying because I could have then noticed my friends.

• 2:20:33Dax Shepard?

  That's finally a negative. You, you were talking about, we use black, you know, black's always generally associated with negative stuff. That's a good, that's a white one. That's bad.

• 2:20:42Speaker 01

  No, white noise is not always bad. White noise is an asset.

• 2:20:46Dax Shepard?

  Nah, I guess now people falling asleep, but, okay, whatever, moving on.

• 2:20:50Speaker 01

  It's, it's both. Um, anyway, so that is what happened.

• 2:20:55Dax Shepard?

  Did you make it In-N-Out? I guess that's all.

• 2:20:56Speaker 01

  I did.

• 2:20:57Dax Shepard?

  Uh, and it's a fun time to go to In-N-Out because you would have been getting there around 2:30 or 3:00 and all the high schoolers are in there. There are a ton of.

• 2:21:03Speaker 01

  I don't go inside.

• 2:21:04Dax Shepard?

  Okay, you go through the drive-through? Okay.

• 2:21:07Speaker 01

  And I was able to turn left.

• 2:21:08Dax Shepard?

  You eat In-N-Out in that nice car? Clearly.

• 2:21:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:21:13Speaker 01

  Dex.

• 2:21:13Dax Shepard?

  I know, it's fine.

• 2:21:15Speaker 01

  I'm allowed.

• 2:21:16Dax Shepard?

  It's your car.

• 2:21:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:17Dax Shepard?

  You can set it on fire and tonka in there.

• 2:21:19Speaker 01

  I do.

• 2:21:20Dax Shepard?

  Since you've gotten in it, you eat a bunch of hamburgers and shit in it. So, you know.

• 2:21:25Speaker 01

  Dex, it's not, it's not your car. I would never do that in your car.

• 2:21:30Dax Shepard?

  Okay, well, I appreciate that.

• 2:21:32Speaker 01

  But, well, I actually, I can't say never. If there's, if I have to tonka.

• 2:21:37Dax Shepard?

  Then tonka, you will.

• 2:21:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:40Speaker 01

  But, um, I wouldn't eat in your car because I'd be scared. You'd be so mad.

• 2:21:44Dax Shepard?

  It just smells so much. It is burgers and fries. It's like, you might as well throw broccoli under the seat. I mean.

• 2:21:52Speaker 01

  Especially because In-N-Out, like I get the grilled chopped onions and.

• 2:21:57Dax Shepard?

  Animal style.

• 2:21:58Speaker 01

  And I get animal style.

• 2:21:59Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 2:22:00Speaker 01

  And it's so stinky, but it is so good.

• 2:22:03Dax Shepard?

  And you have a nice buttery leather interior that's just like absorbing that smell, holding it on.

• 2:22:09Speaker 01

  Putting the burger on the tape.

• 2:22:12Dax Shepard?

  I bet you got some sauce some places.

• 2:22:14Speaker 01

  It's in a little box.

• 2:22:15Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:22:16Speaker 01

  Um, I did the other day though.

• 2:22:19Dax Shepard?

  Leave your burger in there overnight or something?

• 2:22:21Speaker 01

  Kinda, not a burger, but I got some groceries.

• 2:22:24Dax Shepard?

  Uh-huh.

• 2:22:25Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:22:27Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you're kidding. You hate your car?

• 2:22:30Speaker 01

  No, listen, it wasn't raw fish. Two things happened. I got some groceries and I ate half a tuna sandwich and then the other half.

• 2:22:40Dax Shepard?

  Fuck dude, leaving a tuna sandwich in a hot car. Oh, dude.

• 2:22:46Speaker 01

  And then in the groceries, there was raspberries.

• 2:22:49Dax Shepard?

  I bet your fucking car smells like the trash can behind a grocery store.

• 2:22:52Speaker 01

  It smells great.

• 2:22:54Dax Shepard?

  It's a bunch of rotten food.

• 2:22:57Speaker 01

  I did panic when I realized I left that tuna sandwich.

• 2:23:00Dax Shepard?

  Do you compost in the backseat?

• 2:23:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:04Speaker 01

  I think it smells fine, but there really is no way for me to know.

• 2:23:07Dax Shepard?

  That's right.

• 2:23:08Speaker 01

  I recognize that.

• 2:23:09Dax Shepard?

  What if you went on a date and you picked the guy up and he was like, you work at In-N-Out or something?

• 2:23:13Speaker 01

  Oh, I'd be like, I wish. Free burgers.

• 2:23:17Dax Shepard?

  Sweet and terrible story about the man I hired to relocate the skunks in my yard, remember?

• 2:23:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:23:23Dax Shepard?

  And, and it was at the old house and he basically rang, I'm at the gate, so I go outside to open the gate. But before I open the gate, I can smell skunk.

• 2:23:34Speaker 01

  Oh, cause.

• 2:23:34Dax Shepard?

  From his car.

• 2:23:35Speaker 01

  Cause he puts skunks in there?

• 2:23:37Dax Shepard?

  Yes, he relocates them into the Angeles force, but he just puts them in his trunk.

• 2:23:40Speaker 01

  Oh, my god.

• 2:23:42Dax Shepard?

  And I was like, this, does this man have a second car for dates, I hope? Because I could smell skunk on the other side of the gate, like 300 feet away.

• 2:23:52Speaker 01

  So unfair.

• 2:23:53Dax Shepard?

  I know, and he was a very nice boy.

• 2:23:55Speaker 01

  He was young?

• 2:23:56Dax Shepard?

  He was seemingly in his twenties. I mean, I was two. I was probably 30.

• 2:24:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I am.

• 2:24:02Dax Shepard?

  I was in my twenties too. I was 30.

• 2:24:04Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah, I'm asking because of would he be dating?

• 2:24:08Dax Shepard?

  Yes, for sure. He was, I mean, again, immediately, he stepped out of the car and I was just like, fuck, this guy's big time PU. Skunk, I mean, the worst of the worst. Smells like burning rubber.

• 2:24:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, see, so I could have a skunk in my car and I.

• 2:24:23Dax Shepard?

  You should go on a date with that guy and be like, whose car should we take? Does it, doesn't matter. It's gonna fucking stink no matter what.

• 2:24:33Speaker 01

  Listen.

• 2:24:34Dax Shepard?

  What if you got, what if you drove your car to In-N-Out and then you got out and walked up to the counter and they go, back again so soon? Cause you reeked like In-N-Out, just from being in that hot box of yours. You already smelled like you're already coming from there.

• 2:24:47Speaker 01

  I smell good. Do you smell me now?

• 2:24:50Dax Shepard?

  I don't smell you now, no.

• 2:24:52Speaker 01

  And I haven't washed my hair. So the In-N-Out didn't get, like, I'm saying hair.

• 2:24:57Dax Shepard?

  Am I?

• 2:24:58Speaker 01

  No, you would smell it.

• 2:24:59Dax Shepard?

  I didn't bury my nose in your long locks, in your mermaid locks to find out.

• 2:25:03Speaker 01

  Hair collects smell a lot.

• 2:25:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, kinda like that nice leather.

• 2:25:07Speaker 01

  If my hair doesn't smell like it, then my car definitely doesn't smell like it.

• 2:25:10Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:25:12Speaker 01

  No, yeah, so the tuna sandwich was tough, even for me. And then, but it actually, but surprisingly, the next, like, could take a while. Um, not, not a while, but like, like 24 hours.

• 2:25:28Dax Shepard?

  And it's hot in LA. People don't know what's happening here. Mid 90s all week.

• 2:25:33Speaker 01

  I know. And then there were raspberries in there too, in my, in the grocery.

• 2:25:37Dax Shepard?

  That's okay. I mean, they probably got wilted, but.

• 2:25:41Speaker 01

  Well, I threw them away, of course.

• 2:25:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but it probably didn't smell, like, if your car smells like raspberries, congratulations.

• 2:25:46Speaker 01

  But I got nervous about flies, cause of the rasp, like fruit flies or something. They didn't, don't worry, they didn't.

• 2:25:52Dax Shepard?

  You've got like a green, you've turned your car into a greenhouse.

• 2:25:55Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I'm doing, I'm doing good. I'm doing the good, good for the world. Listen, I'm sorry, this is how.

• 2:26:02Dax Shepard?

  You don't need to be sorry. You don't need to be sorry. It is hysterical, but you don't need to be sorry.

• 2:26:07Speaker 01

  I, I'm not saying I'm, I'm actually, I'm not apologizing.

• 2:26:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, good. And if you got in it and drove it directly off a cliff, that's your right.

• 2:26:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's hope I'm not in it.

• 2:26:18Dax Shepard?

  Well, you would jump and roll out.

• 2:26:19Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 2:26:20Dax Shepard?

  Right before the cliff. By the way, are your underwear still on backwards throughout all of this?

• 2:26:25Speaker 01

  You think I haven't changed my underwear since yesterday?

• 2:26:28Dax Shepard?

  The same day. That was yesterday.

• 2:26:31Speaker 01

  Oh, I thought you meant, is my underwear on backwards?

• 2:26:32Dax Shepard?

  No, on the whole trip. Yeah. It was all on backwards and then Sunset Tower.

• 2:26:38Speaker 01

  Turns out.

• 2:26:39Dax Shepard?

  Wow, doesn't matter.

• 2:26:40Speaker 01

  It does, those, that pair, it doesn't matter.

• 2:26:43Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:26:44Speaker 01

  I told you, it's not a G string.

• 2:26:46Dax Shepard?

  Same diff.

• 2:26:47Speaker 01

  I wasn't flossing my vagina.

• 2:26:50Dax Shepard?

  Okay, good.

• 2:26:51Speaker 01

  Okay?

• 2:26:51Dax Shepard?

  Although.

• 2:26:52Speaker 01

  What?

• 2:26:52Dax Shepard?

  And maybe it's good hygiene to floss. I don't know.

• 2:26:55Speaker 01

  No, I would highly not recommend that. Please don't do that.

• 2:26:59Dax Shepard?

  Flossing?

• 2:27:00Speaker 01

  Please don't do that. Um.

• 2:27:02Dax Shepard?

  That might be a winning product. Feminine hygiene floss? Think about it. You're, you're not even thinking about it. You're already, you're disgusted.

• 2:27:08Speaker 01

  I am definitely thinking about it, okay? That, all that's gonna do is irritate the whole system.

• 2:27:14Dax Shepard?

  What if there was like a gentle, um, spring water on it and some other organic items?

• 2:27:21Speaker 01

  Why would you need to be doing this?

• 2:27:22Dax Shepard?

  This is a freshen up.

• 2:27:24Speaker 01

  No, you can just spray water, but it needs to be regular water.

• 2:27:28Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so maybe they, the floss just has a high quality, uh, water.

• 2:27:33Speaker 01

  Flossing is gonna irritate, okay? God. Um.

• 2:27:38Dax Shepard?

  Moving on.

• 2:27:38Speaker 01

  A part of why I was all kerfuffled, I was hungry, also something else bad was happening.

• 2:27:44Dax Shepard?

  What?

• 2:27:45Speaker 01

  I got a text yesterday and I'm gonna, I'm gonna.

• 2:27:49Dax Shepard?

  Read it out loud?

• 2:27:49Speaker 01

  Put her on blast slash shout her out. I got a text from Alison Roman.

• 2:27:53Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh. Chef extraordinaire.

• 2:27:55Speaker 01

  Exactly. Who I love deeply. If you missed that episode, check it out. It's in the archives.

• 2:28:00Dax Shepard?

  We're keeping it in the archives.

• 2:28:02Speaker 01

  She said, she texted me and she said, and I am embarrassed, but sadly I do enjoy money. And I was like, oh, is she responding to something I said on the fact check or something? Like, maybe I said something, I, I don't know.

• 2:28:17Dax Shepard?

  Or is it part two of a bigger text that's sent to someone else and now she's sending you the back half?

• 2:28:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:28:23Dax Shepard?

  To the wrong person.

• 2:28:23Speaker 01

  So I said, what? Question mark. Then I said again, I said, ha, ha, ha, ha.

• 2:28:29Dax Shepard?

  And why, why are you saying ha, ha, ha? Do you think that's funny?

• 2:28:33Speaker 01

  I did think it was funny if it was, if she was like, I like money. I don't know.

• 2:28:38Dax Shepard?

  Like Frito says.

• 2:28:39Speaker 01

  Well, now, I, see, now I'm gonna look really bad, cause I said, ha, ha, ha, ha. Where did this come from? And also, duh, same.

• 2:28:48Speaker 01

  And then she responded again, and I am embarrassed, but sadly I do enjoy money. So then I'm like, oh my god, yes.

• 2:28:56Dax Shepard?

  Someone's getting hacked.

• 2:28:57Speaker 01

  Yes. I was like, something horrible is happening.

• 2:29:00Dax Shepard?

  Same exact text as a response.

• 2:29:02Speaker 01

  Yes. So then I screen grab it and I DM her and I say something is, yeah, and I say, something's going on.

• 2:29:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:11Speaker 01

  And then I get a message from her that says, in solidarity, I have to tell you, I'm [BLEEP].

• 2:29:18Dax Shepard?

  So that sounds like her.

• 2:29:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:29:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:20Speaker 01

  And then I said, what is happening with our phones?

• 2:29:23Dax Shepard?

  Help me.

• 2:29:24Speaker 01

  Because then she responded in the, in my DMs, a screen grab of her saying that, in solidarity, I have to tell you, I'm [BLEEP]. And a response from me that said, and I am embarrassed, but sadly I do enjoy money. So this is horrible, right?

• 2:29:42Dax Shepard?

  I'm so confused. How did?

• 2:29:43Speaker 01

  I don't know how, what's happening. I don't know what's happening. And she, cause she said, oh my god. And so clearly some hacking or some scam or scheminess, but I'm nervous we both participate, like, I don't know. But what is it gonna do? It didn't like get my information.

• 2:30:01Dax Shepard?

  I don't know.

• 2:30:02Speaker 01

  I know. Isn't that scary and weird?

• 2:30:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. I wouldn't like that.

• 2:30:06Speaker 01

  I hate it. And yeah, so I said, what's happening with our phones? Is it gone? Has it stopped? She has no response.

• 2:30:12Dax Shepard?

  Why don't you call, why wouldn't you then?

• 2:30:13Speaker 01

  Then I left a voice note.

• 2:30:15Dax Shepard?

  Oh, a voice note. Still not call her.

• 2:30:17Speaker 01

  I just, no, I don't wanna call her, cause.

• 2:30:20Dax Shepard?

  She don't like phone calls.

• 2:30:21Speaker 01

  I don't know. I, that feels scary. Like, I don't do that. So I, I left a voice note. I just learned that's what they're called. And I said, hey, I, I'm doing it this way. Sorry to leave you. Voice note, people, not everyone likes those, but I just wanna make sure.

• 2:30:38Dax Shepard?

  Who doesn't like those?

• 2:30:39Speaker 01

  A lot of people. It's very controversial.

• 2:30:41Dax Shepard?

  I love them.

• 2:30:42Speaker 01

  I know. I like them too.

• 2:30:44Dax Shepard?

  I've, I would just need to hear someone's explanation of why they wouldn't wanna hear someone say the thing they were gonna text.

• 2:30:50Speaker 01

  They like, they don't want to take the time to listen. They also feel like, oh, I can't really listen right now.

• 2:30:56Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:30:56Speaker 01

  Rob.

• 2:30:57Speaker 05

  I don't love them.

• 2:30:58Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:30:59Speaker 05

  Cause.

• 2:31:00Speaker 01

  That's no, most people are like that.

• 2:31:02Dax Shepard?

  You also wear underwear and massage though.

• 2:31:05Speaker 05

  Well, the texts are for reading.

• 2:31:07Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:31:08Speaker 01

  Josh Hartnett doesn't like them either.

• 2:31:09Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I.

• 2:31:11Speaker 05

  I mean, I also don't get mad when people send them.

• 2:31:14Dax Shepard?

  I love them. I would way prefer to get one. Though, I understand if some people are very inefficient about them. So yes, if you're leaving five minute ones, that's cumbersome.

• 2:31:24Speaker 01

  Well, it depends on, to me, it depends on who and it depends on the relationship. Like Sally and I send vo- voice memos. What are, what are they called? Voice notes? Okay. Um, a lot. And it's fun. It's like, we are just kinda catching, we are kinda talking on the phone, but just not talking on the phone.

• 2:31:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I, I, what I particularly like, um, the one that's coming to mind is, we had Guillermo del Toro on. So I sent Josh Brolin a voice memo, cause I know he worked with him, on this movie that was really challenging.

• 2:31:59Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:32:00Dax Shepard?

  And so I was like, oh, I wanna hear his perspective.

• 2:32:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:32:03Dax Shepard?

  So then he sends me a long one back, but it's, it's so riddled with, um, he can't remember this actor's name and he can't remember where he was at. Is this the thing? And so I then respond, immediately send that above voice memo to your neurologist, right?

• 2:32:20Speaker 01

  Oh, my god.

• 2:32:21Dax Shepard?

  And then so, and I'm laughing through it.

• 2:32:24Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:32:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm laughing really hard. Send this to your neurologist and he sends one back laughing. You know, you can have that kind of a, a.

• 2:32:31Speaker 01

  I just wrote something.

• 2:32:33Dax Shepard?

  You can hear someone respond.

• 2:32:34Speaker 01

  I just wrote something in defense of voice memo or voice notes. I call them, I called them audio texts, because I think that's technically what they're called.

• 2:32:43Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:32:44Speaker 01

  And then I got made fun of for doing that. But I wrote something about this and I said, that you get true context of.

• 2:32:52Dax Shepard?

  The spirit.

• 2:32:52Speaker 01

  Yes. I was like, you can't misread tone and jokes can be delivered as properly and precisely.

• 2:33:01Dax Shepard?

  In a court transcript too. Like, you imagine some of your texts being read by someone with a very, uh, monotone voice, how they would sound. Versus if you hear me saying the offensive thing, I think it would go down a lot smoother. Well, even just saying, you need to send this to your neurologist.

• 2:33:20Speaker 01

  Oh, sure, it could be me.

• 2:33:22Dax Shepard?

  Like, you could infer that I was serious about that or that I'm really accusing him of, you know, whatever.

• 2:33:29Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 2:33:36Dax Shepard?

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you've thought about trying therapy with our long-term partner, BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session. October 10th is World Mental Health Day, but you don't need a day on the calendar to give yourself permission to talk to someone. I've been in therapy for a long time and the stuff rattling around in my head always just quiets down the second I say it out loud. And it doesn't have to be some big life crisis. Maybe it's a work thing that's taking up too much space, or hard relationship moment, or just a feeling that something's off. That's enough. That's worth talking about.

• 2:34:14Speaker 01

  You know, I love therapy more than anything. Gets me through. Often I'll want to cancel because I'm like, I don't really have anything to talk about. And then I'll go and I have some major revelation.

• 2:34:25Dax Shepard?

  You know, I was just talking to a friend who has just started it. And I said, one of the most powerful elements of it is just hearing yourself say out loud, the thing that's been ruminating in your head and how different it sounds. Once it's out into the world, you gain perspective immediately just by hearing yourself say it.

• 2:34:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, you do.

• 2:34:41Dax Shepard?

  If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks and eligible members have an average copay of just $23 per session with insurance. Don't have insurance or live outside the US? You can still get 10% off your first month. Do yourself a favor and just try it. Future you will be grateful. Visit betterhelp.com/dax to explore your payment options. That's better H E L P dot com slash DAX.

• 2:35:14Speaker 01

  Anywho, all to say, should I call her now?

• 2:35:17Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 2:35:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:35:18Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:35:19Speaker 01

  And she, see, she's gonna be like, why'd you call me? She might be scared to answer because-

• 2:35:24Dax Shepard?

  You don't like talking on the phone, but you're willing to do it on the air.

• 2:35:27Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. LOL, you're on air. Just FYI.

• 2:35:32Speaker 01

  Because.

• 2:35:34Dax Shepard?

  Also, Monica doesn't want to talk on the phone, but she's willing to on the air, which is so confusing.

• 2:35:39Speaker 06

  Wow.

• 2:35:39Speaker 01

  Well, I like being watched.

• 2:35:40Speaker 06

  I always assume if somebody, if somebody calls me, I'm like, somebody died, or it's like such a novel thing that I always pick up.

• 2:35:47Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, I knew this, which is why I don't like to call because I know it just scares everybody.

• 2:35:52Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:35:52Speaker 01

  But I did want to, I'm talking about what's going on with our phones.

• 2:35:57Speaker 06

  Oh, my God. I, I do have to unfortunately tell you that it was only you. I know.

• 2:36:04Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 2:36:05Speaker 06

  And that like I was, I was tech, because I was on the subway when I originally texted you. I was like, okay, well, it's obviously a subway issue. But then I got out of the subway and it was still obviously an issue. But other people I had texted at the same, in the same timeframe, no issues.

• 2:36:19Dax Shepard?

  But had you ever typed in the thing about, I like money too?

• 2:36:25Dax Shepard?

  Had that been typed by you ever?

• 2:36:27Speaker 06

  That was a original text, obviously, specifically for the occasion.

• 2:36:32Speaker 01

  I know. I made, it made no sense. Like.

• 2:36:35Speaker 06

  Also, that would have, it's giving like, there's a scam or like, I've been kidnapped or I would be worried if I, if I were you.

• 2:36:43Dax Shepard?

  Then you weren't kidnapped. Are you currently kidnapped?

• 2:36:47Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. Do you want to give us a secret word? Tell us the secret word.

• 2:36:51Dax Shepard?

  Pineapple?

• 2:36:53Speaker 06

  I, I'm like trying to, we were at a party once and I ruined a rug.

• 2:36:57Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. It's you. It's hers. She's fine.

• 2:37:02Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:37:03Speaker 06

  I, I will have to text you again and we'll figure it out. But I'm glad that you can at least make a phone call to me.

• 2:37:07Speaker 01

  Well, thanks for picking up. I hope our phones aren't like, um, ruined, you know, because mine came, that was a text from you on its own, like spontaneous. It made no, so I don't.

• 2:37:21Speaker 06

  But you saw, you saw the context. Like I screenshotted it to you. There was a previous text that like, gave the second text context.

• 2:37:28Dax Shepard?

  Oh, so that's what happened, Monica?

• 2:37:29Speaker 06

  I like money.

• 2:37:31Dax Shepard?

  I got it, guys. There's no, there's no mystery. The first text didn't go through and the second one did.

• 2:37:37Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:37:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:37:38Speaker 06

  Oh, I thought we, oh, I thought when I screenshotted that to you, that was established.

• 2:37:42Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. Allison, I'm about to start my period.

• 2:37:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, she's falling down. Her underwear's on backwards.

• 2:37:50Speaker 06

  I'm so sorry.

• 2:37:51Speaker 01

  I thought we were getting hacked.

• 2:37:54Dax Shepard?

  This is so simple, guys. Uh, we regret the phone call. Sorry for taking up your time.

• 2:37:58Speaker 06

  No, it took her. Honestly, case closed. I think this is another, another job for the girl detective.

• 2:38:04Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna put my monocle back in its case.

• 2:38:06Speaker 01

  I love when mysteries are solved.

• 2:38:09Speaker 06

  Oh, it's giving murder she wrote. I love it. This is the happy ending.

• 2:38:12Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, this was great. Love, love you.

• 2:38:16Speaker 06

  Love you. Talk to you soon.

• 2:38:17Speaker 01

  Bye.

• 2:38:18Speaker 06

  Bye.

• 2:38:19Speaker 01

  Oh, so she was joking.

• 2:38:21Dax Shepard?

  Yes, the first text makes sense. And then the second one makes a lot of sense. But you got the second one first, which made no sense because there was no context. He's not.

• 2:38:29Speaker 01

  And then I thought, but I thought it came from my phone to her, though.

• 2:38:34Dax Shepard?

  Don't re-confuse yourself. It's like so simple. What happened?

• 2:38:37Speaker 05

  I think it's your screen, your colors are swapped if she's screenshotting her phone. So you thought it was your-

• 2:38:43Speaker 01

  Okay, thank you. That does answer something. That's not, that's not, you didn't say that.

• 2:38:49Dax Shepard?

  Well, but you know that on her phone, hers.

• 2:38:53Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:38:53Dax Shepard?

  Are on the left side and.

• 2:38:55Speaker 01

  They're both on the same side, but one's green.

• 2:38:59Speaker 05

  She's blue on her screenshot. You're blue on yours.

• 2:39:03Dax Shepard?

  It's okay. It's, it's really hard to figure out. And anyone would have made this mistake. Okay.

• 2:39:12Dax Shepard?

  Even the smartest person in the world would have made this mistake.

• 2:39:15Speaker 01

  It looks like.

• 2:39:15Dax Shepard?

  And would still be struggling to figure out what, what happened.

• 2:39:18Speaker 01

  But the problem is both of these were not delivered. Do you see that?

• 2:39:21Dax Shepard?

  I do. Yeah.

• 2:39:22Speaker 01

  So then how did one then come through later?

• 2:39:25Dax Shepard?

  It did, you know?

• 2:39:27Speaker 01

  I just.

• 2:39:28Dax Shepard?

  Just an ordering issue.

• 2:39:30Speaker 01

  Well, wow, that was a great.

• 2:39:32Dax Shepard?

  Caper solved.

• 2:39:34Speaker 01

  That was great caper solved. Um, okay.

• 2:39:38Dax Shepard?

  Okey dokey.

• 2:39:40Speaker 01

  Real quick, have you heard of the Trader Joe's Halloween bags?

• 2:39:43Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 2:39:44Speaker 01

  It's a whole thing. Apparently they have limited edition Halloween bags and people are freaking out and like standing in line and they're running out.

• 2:39:52Dax Shepard?

  What's in this bag? Candy?

• 2:39:53Speaker 01

  No, no, it's just like your tote bag.

• 2:39:56Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God.

• 2:39:58Speaker 01

  But it's Halloween colors.

• 2:39:59Dax Shepard?

  What was it that I just was saying? People have so much more time than I do.

• 2:40:04Speaker 01

  No, I think it's fun. You know, it's like, it's something to look forward to. It's event ties. It's like, oh, my God, it's the time for the Halloween bags. Ah!

• 2:40:13Dax Shepard?

  Okay, yeah, yeah. I mean, if people are that pumped about like pumpkin spice latte and stuff, then I'm not shocked that they need a bag. I just can't relate. That's all. I can't, I can't. I cannot imagine someone going, did you hear there's bags? And I go, fuck, I gotta get down there. Like, that notion is very foreign to me.

• 2:40:32Speaker 01

  I know. I think you're missing out. It's a really fun feeling.

• 2:40:36Dax Shepard?

  You know me, this is an, this is an age old tale. The second I hear everyone has something, that's the last thing I want. And I go, so I can be like everybody else.

• 2:40:44Speaker 01

  I think that's so silly.

• 2:40:46Dax Shepard?

  I'm probably denying myself a lot of fun.

• 2:40:48Speaker 01

  You are.

• 2:40:48Dax Shepard?

  Carrying the bag, winking at everyone else. Does everyone wave at each other if they have a bag?

• 2:40:53Speaker 01

  Probably. I don't know. I don't have one.

• 2:40:55Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:40:56Speaker 01

  But I'd love one.

• 2:40:56Dax Shepard?

  I think it's a great product and I'd love to have Trader Joe's as a sponsor. So.

• 2:41:01Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 2:41:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Trader Joe, not Joe's. Is it Trader Joe's?

• 2:41:04Speaker 01

  Joe's.

• 2:41:05Dax Shepard?

  It is Joe's.

• 2:41:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:41:06Dax Shepard?

  Trader Joe's.

• 2:41:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:41:08Dax Shepard?

  Uh, Trader Joe.

• 2:41:09Speaker 01

  Well, fuck, now I'm like.

• 2:41:10Dax Shepard?

  Has it got an apostrophe in it?

• 2:41:11Speaker 01

  You say Trader Joe's, but now I'm more.

• 2:41:14Dax Shepard?

  Like you're from Michigan.

• 2:41:14Speaker 05

  It's apostrophe, yes.

• 2:41:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:41:15Dax Shepard?

  Oh, Trader Joe's. Thought we might have been Michigan, didn't it?

• 2:41:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, me too. All right. Yeah, let's do some facts. Adam.

• 2:41:23Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:41:23Speaker 01

  So when we started this episode, you brought up how he keeps winning, you know, he kept winning that award of like favorite teacher or whatever.

• 2:41:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, until they had to stop doing it because it was so embarrassing for all the other.

• 2:41:35Speaker 01

  Stop and then they made a new thing and he's also winning that.

• 2:41:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:38Speaker 01

  And you asked him, why do you think that is? And he said, you have to ask my student. So I asked Sophia.

• 2:41:45Dax Shepard?

  Great.

• 2:41:46Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:41:46Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah. Why he wins so much was what we're resolving.

• 2:41:49Speaker 01

  Exactly. Um, she said, number one, and she used like bolds and stuff.

• 2:41:56Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 2:41:57Speaker 01

  She said, number one, demonstrating.

• 2:41:59Dax Shepard?

  Disclaimer, she also works with Adam.

• 2:42:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42:03Dax Shepard?

  She's got to disclose her financial interests here.

• 2:42:06Speaker 01

  That's true. Number one, demonstrating interest in students, which he said.

• 2:42:10Dax Shepard?

  He owned up to that.

• 2:42:11Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. She said, colon, what stands out most is how genuinely invested he in, is in his students. During our two-week MBA simulation, he fully commits even staying at a hotel to minimize professional and personal distractions.

• 2:42:25Dax Shepard?

  Do you think he's one of the Bowery?

• 2:42:26Speaker 01

  He's, he has my spot. Fuck. Uh, and, uh, and give us the best experience possible. He also memorizes the backgrounds of 75-plus students across three classes and brings their experiences into discussions. Example, John, you've spent the past five years leading strategy for your family's consumer goods business in Brazil, so I'm curious to hear your perspective here.

• 2:42:49Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:42:50Speaker 01

  He mentioned that as well, sort of.

• 2:42:51Dax Shepard?

  This is good.

• 2:42:52Speaker 01

  I've never had another professor demonstrate so clearly that everyone in the room matters.

• 2:42:56Dax Shepard?

  Wow, that's nice. That's really nice.

• 2:42:58Speaker 01

  Okay, number two, relatable material, colon. His organizational behavior material feels essentially relevant because he connects it to real companies, research, and workplace situations many of us have experienced ourselves.

• 2:43:11Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:43:12Speaker 01

  Okay. Number three, this is the last one. Supporting students through action, colon.

• 2:43:18Speaker 01

  Beyond the classroom, he genuinely wants to help students connect with the right people and achieve their goals. He's incredibly generous with his time and network. I'm Exhibit A.

• 2:43:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:27Speaker 01

  That's true. And then she said, "It really comes down to sincere interest in understanding and supporting his students. Hope this helps."

• 2:43:32Dax Shepard?

  That's incredible.

• 2:43:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:43:33Dax Shepard?

  I never had that. I didn't have that experience with any professor. I had ones I loved, but I certainly didn't have that experience. No one ever knew what I was, where I was up to. Mind you, it wasn't in a computer age.

• 2:43:46Speaker 01

  That's true, but also a different kind of classes, maybe? Like, all my professors did know, in like, the theater program, everyone knew everything about each other.

• 2:43:55Dax Shepard?

  They knew you were from Duluth?

• 2:43:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:43:57Dax Shepard?

  But they had to ask that. He comes in already knowing all this.

• 2:44:00Speaker 01

  Oh, right. Yeah, yeah.

• 2:44:00Dax Shepard?

  Which was not possible in 99.

• 2:44:03Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 2:44:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:04Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:44:05Dax Shepard?

  All right.

• 2:44:06Speaker 01

  Um, do we know Brian Little? No. I double-checked. We have not had him on. So, we're not, like, bad for forgetting.

• 2:44:14Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great.

• 2:44:15Speaker 01

  Okay. Oh, we brought up what we thought, but we wondered what the percentage was of the Harvard student body who, who has imposter syndrome.

• 2:44:26Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:44:26Speaker 01

  Okay. Now, obviously, there's no way to know that, but I did my own study.

• 2:44:31Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:44:31Speaker 01

  I asked three Harvard students I know.

• 2:44:34Dax Shepard?

  Okay, this is the data set.

• 2:44:36Speaker 01

  Yep. And I just simply asked. Okay, two, two of these people are married.

• 2:44:42Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so it was one-stop shopping for you.

• 2:44:44Speaker 01

  It was easy, yeah. So, doing a fact-check, and the question came up, "What is the percentage of people at Harvard who have imposter syndrome?" Um, since there's no answer to this, I'm conducting my own research by asking just the two of you. I ended up asking someone else, too. She said, "Wow, good question. I mean, I think most people have some degree of imposter syndrome, but at Harvard, definitely a lower percentage than the normal population." She said, "Because it's full of psychopaths."

• 2:45:06Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow. So, even people who went to Harvard hate people who went to Harvard?

• 2:45:09Speaker 01

  It's interesting. Um, she said, "The thing is, some people don't have it who should have it."

• 2:45:15Dax Shepard?

  Hmm.

• 2:45:15Speaker 01

  And then she said, "I want to wait for my husband's answer, though."

• 2:45:18Dax Shepard?

  But she's pointing out something good to, to consider, which is, there are so many objective hurdles one has to clear to get in there.

• 2:45:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:45:27Dax Shepard?

  That it should trend lower on imposter syndrome.

• 2:45:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, but she's saying, like, "I'm in there with people that are like, you, why do you think you're so hot shit? You're not."

• 2:45:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:38Speaker 01

  And then, her husband replied, "I really try not to do too much introspection. It's just better that way."

• 2:45:43Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:45:44Speaker 01

  Um...

• 2:45:45Dax Shepard?

  Very male answer.

• 2:45:45Speaker 01

  Yep. So, then we had a whole thing about this, but she just wanted to really put a point on the fact that there are psychopaths there.

• 2:45:53Dax Shepard?

  Then they asked me to swing. I'll skip this part.

• 2:45:56Speaker 01

  She said, "Plenty of people at Harvard think they were born to attend."

• 2:45:59Dax Shepard?

  Hmm.

• 2:46:00Speaker 01

  Okay, now...

• 2:46:01Dax Shepard?

  Some were, by the way.

• 2:46:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. Then I asked another friend, female friend. Um, she said, "This is such a wild guess, but I'd have to say definitely over half the class, 50 to 60% for sure." But there's another funny dynamic, which, that in some ways, I think that serves those people. I'm including myself. I had major imposter syndrome. She said, "Because the other group are people who are very much used to being the smartest person in the room. It's their total identity, and then it's really hard to be in a room full of people just as smart. Destabilizing, identity crisis-inducing, purpose-shaking. So, I do think some people who start with the fear of being less smart than everyone end up having a unique advantage, because once they prove to themselves that they can hang, it builds a lot of confidence that can also build real momentum over time."

• 2:46:45Dax Shepard?

  Right. That makes sense. This is good research.

• 2:46:48Speaker 01

  Great study, I did.

• 2:46:49Dax Shepard?

  Really good research. I hope Adam cites it going forward.

• 2:46:53Speaker 01

  So, there is this study?

• 2:46:54Dax Shepard?

  Uh, 2026, I believe. There was a study by Monica Padman.

• 2:46:59Speaker 01

  Um, what was CP Ellis's KKK title? Um, CP Ellis held the KKK title of Exalted Cyclops.

• 2:47:08Dax Shepard?

  I mean, guys...

• 2:47:10Speaker 01

  It just goes to show, like, how...

• 2:47:13Dax Shepard?

  Goofy.

• 2:47:13Speaker 01

  How, how ridiculous the whole thing is.

• 2:47:17Dax Shepard?

  Well, look, I think, I think it attracts losers.

• 2:47:20Speaker 01

  Like, obvious, exactly.

• 2:47:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I mean, truly, like, people who just, that, yeah.

• 2:47:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does. That's the truth.

• 2:47:26Dax Shepard?

  And they need to feel superior to somebody, because they're fucking losers.

• 2:47:29Speaker 01

  But who wants to be a cyclops? Like, even that is not, they think that's something else.

• 2:47:35Dax Shepard?

  To aspire to. What was it called?

• 2:47:38Speaker 01

  Exalted.

• 2:47:38Dax Shepard?

  Exalted Cyclops.

• 2:47:40Speaker 01

  Oh, my lord.

• 2:47:41Dax Shepard?

  There's one, there's one listener in the Klan right now. He's like, "You don't understand the Cyclops is a..." He's like screaming at his radio right now, because we don't understand the prestige behind the Cyclops title.

• 2:47:53Speaker 01

  I'm happy to lose him. I don't, I won't...

• 2:47:55Dax Shepard?

  No, I would want, more than anything, if you're in the Klan, to be listening to this show, because it could be a pathway out.

• 2:48:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, but if he's still thinking that...

• 2:48:03Dax Shepard?

  But now, maybe, now, but now, when he hears us poking fun at him, maybe he does go, "It is kind of weird."

• 2:48:09Speaker 01

  That's not really how it works when people are made fun of.

• 2:48:11Dax Shepard?

  You're right. I got to be friends like she became friends with the Cyclops and earned the trust.

• 2:48:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, she didn't want to, but remember that documentary we watched?

• 2:48:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I was thinking about him the whole time. He was a special man.

• 2:48:23Speaker 01

  I wonder if he was him?

• 2:48:26Speaker 01

  I wonder if that was also CP Ellis?

• 2:48:28Dax Shepard?

  The white guy in the doc?

• 2:48:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:48:29Dax Shepard?

  Oh. What if his whole thing was, he just knew, people love converting people out of the Klan, and he just kept acting like he was in the Klan?

• 2:48:36Speaker 01

  Exactly. Um, okay. Oh, he said that the first interview we did with him, you said, and he was like, "I don't remember if it was before we recorded or what, but that you said you wanted to bond with him." So, I went back to the first interview. I listened to the very beginning, and you say, fir-, first you say, "Welcome, Adam Grant, to Armchair Expert," which, we don't do that anymore, which is, that was interesting.

• 2:49:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:01Speaker 01

  And then you say, "First and foremost, let's geek out for one second that we're both from Michigan."

• 2:49:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:49:07Speaker 01

  Okay, I looked up Rasheed Wallace, uh...

• 2:49:11Dax Shepard?

  There's a great doc on him. Untold did a Rasheed Wallace doc. It's really great. He's so fucking cool. He's really, really cool.

• 2:49:19Speaker 01

  Well, he, okay, he is the most volatile player. Strong claim is the most technically volatile player in NBA history. That's what I was looking at, because that's what we were saying.

• 2:49:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:29Speaker 01

  Holding the single-season record with 41 technical fouls and 21 career ejections.

• 2:49:36Dax Shepard?

  And I got to say, if you watch the doc, of those 41, I, I bet he, he deserved about 20 of them, because once he became, people were waiting for it, looking for it, and they found it.

• 2:49:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:49:47Dax Shepard?

  So, he also was treated unfairly.

• 2:49:49Speaker 01

  You said 40 to 50%, it's in the 40 to 50% range that people have affairs. So, okay, now, to be very clear, these are reported.

• 2:50:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:00Speaker 01

  So, that is, already, we're only counting so many, okay?

• 2:50:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:07Speaker 01

  Physical infidelity, roughly 20 to 25% of marriages experience physical infidelity at some point. Emotional infidelity, when including emotional affairs, the numbers rise to about 45% of men and 35% of women. Dating versus marriage, rates are higher in dating or non-marital relationships with research, with research estimating up to 70% of dating couples experience some form of cheating. So, yeah, it's a lot of people. It's a lot of people.

• 2:50:33Dax Shepard?

  It's, it's half the people. How are you going to say any, any one thing that's true about half the people?

• 2:50:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a lot of people.

• 2:50:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:40Speaker 01

  Um, okay. The Coldplay thing, they claimed they were separated from their spouses or going through separations at the time.

• 2:50:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:49Speaker 01

  Um, that's it.

• 2:50:52Dax Shepard?

  Okay. That was great.

• 2:50:54Speaker 01

  That's it for Adam.

• 2:50:55Dax Shepard?

  That was great.

• 2:50:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50:56Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I love having Adam on. It's so fun to debate him.

• 2:50:59Speaker 01

  It's fun to dance.

• 2:51:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, he's the ultimate dancer.

• 2:51:02Speaker 01

  He taught us that phrase, and we kept it up.

• 2:51:05Dax Shepard?

  We love it. I can't wait for him to come back and for us to have another dust-up.

• 2:51:09Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:51:10Dax Shepard?

  So much good faith. Love you.

• 2:51:11Speaker 01

  Love you.