Top Physicist: “There Was A Nuclear Catastrophe On Mars” (ft. Dr. John Brandenburg)

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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:29Speaker 01

  I asked this fellow, I said, "Is there really a UFO cover-up?" And he said, "Yes." He said, "And that's all I can tell you. The rest you can figure out for yourself." Mars was covered with liquid water. I was the one to find the Martian ocean. We were looking at Sidonia Menza, which is a site where there's the face and then there's a five-sided pyramid. NASA never shows that picture of the face beside the pyramid together in any of their public photos, because it becomes obvious.

• 1:00Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:01Speaker 01

  We're looking at archaeology. They've kind of made fun of me as the Mars guy. And then suddenly Carl Sagan is trying to get ahold of me. And I said, "Well, Carl, what'd you think of the pictures? Brandenburg, why are you causing this trouble?"

• 1:12Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 1:13Speaker 01

  Yes. I'd found and digested the isotopic evidence. And when it all hit me, I wept like a child. It looked like a thermonuclear holocaust. We were so afraid it would happen on Earth.

• 1:49Jesse Michels?

  I'm here with Dr. John Brandenburg, and it's an absolute honor to have him. You first popped up because I, actually, I did a piece on Townsend Brown. And, you know, my audience has heard me talk about Townsend Brown ad nauseam. He's this mid-century inventor who I think, you know, did some interesting things in the world of gravity, possibly helping marry gravity and electromagnetism from an experimental standpoint.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:14Jesse Michels?

  Maybe not in the strongest theoretician. And then all of a sudden, there's all this Twitter noise about this guy, John Brandenburg, who has his own model, GEM, Gem Theory.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  Gem Theory.

• 2:24Jesse Michels?

  Gravity electromagnetism, is that right?

• 2:26Speaker 01

  Just gravity electromagnetism.

• 2:27Jesse Michels?

  And then more recently, I've started to get interested in kind of Mars anomalies, which have gone kind of viral. Like, Joe Rogan recently retweeted my buddy Chris Ramsey, who posted this photo that's now been verified at the highest levels of this sort of square structure on Mars that looks artificial. But that's along lineage, as you know, of seemingly artificial structures on Mars. And you're about as deep as anybody on that topic.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:54Jesse Michels?

  And so it's just an absolute honor to have you, and I appreciate you taking the time.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Well, Jesse, it's a pleasure and honor to be on your show.

• 3:02Jesse Michels?

  Awesome.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  You have had many awesome guests, and I've followed your work. It's very good.

• 3:09Jesse Michels?

  Well, you're among the most awesome. And why don't we start with just, because we're going to be getting into pretty interesting territory that for the average person who believes in consensus or mainstream science might feel beyond the pale. So I think what's possibly most remarkable about you is you have very traditionally impressive bona fides and credentials. So what's your background?

• 3:34Speaker 01

  Well, I grew up in Oregon, and I went to school for undergraduate at Southern Oregon University, majoring in physics and math. And inspired by my uncle, who worked on the Manhattan Project during World War II, I wanted to go on for my PhD, and they encouraged that. And so I ended up working at Lawrence Livermore National Lab, which was the Center for Fusion Research at the time. It's also where they had the big laser fusion experiment. And at the other end of the lab, though, they were building hydrogen bombs. So it was a very interesting atmosphere.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Edward Teller was kind of the mentor of the program, and was a very entertaining character to hear talk. And he would come and talk to us, and I had several pleasant conversations with him. It was very inspirational. So then I finished there and I went on to another government lab called Sandia National Lab and worked on directed energy weapons. I wanted to work on fusion, but all the money had suddenly dried up for fusion research. And so I worked in New Mexico for about three years and that's when the laboratory staff experienced this moment of great angst and

• 4:59Speaker 01

  kind of morale collapse because of two things. The nuclear winter came out and then the there was a Able Archer crisis of 1983, which was classified. We were as close to a nuclear war as we were during the Cuban Missile Crisis, but it was secret. Only people on the lab premises inside the fence knew how bad things were. And I was felt in despair like a lot of other people at the lab and that we were going to have a nuclear war by accident. And then I saw this interesting stuff on Mars and I checked it out and I thought suddenly I had hope for the future for the human race. I thought, well, if we

• 5:43Speaker 01

  discover a dead civilization on Mars, then the Cold War will be over. The Russians and Americans will go to Mars together and investigate. And I remember the first night seeing after seeing that evidence, putting my little daughter to bed and having hope for her future. And so I then I went from there to Washington DC and worked as a defense contractor, as a consulting physicist to the Pentagon and the intel agencies. And at the time, I didn't

• 6:20Speaker 01

  believe in UFOs, but by after working there for about a year, suddenly it was absolutely clear there was a UFO cover up.

• 6:31Jesse Michels?

  And at what point did that become clear?

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Well, I talked to a friend of a friend worked for the Joint Chiefs of Staff on at their, you know, at their staff level. He was a Colonel. And I'd been hearing all of this rumors. The rumors. Were just very thick in the air during the Reagan administration. He was warning them about invasions of outer space and that we ought to end the Cold War because of that. And I asked this fellow, I said, is there really a UFO cover up? And he said, yes, he said, and that's all I can tell you. He says, the rest you can figure out for yourself, he says.

• 7:13Jesse Michels?

  This guy was on Chairman of Joint Chiefs?

• 7:16Speaker 01

  He worked for the Joint Chiefs as a staff.

• 7:19Jesse Michels?

  So you spoke, it was a friend of a friend, but you spoke directly to the person?

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Yes, I did.

• 7:23Jesse Michels?

  The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs? And he basically?

• 7:25Speaker 01

  He was not a Chairman, he was not one of the Joint Chiefs, but he was part of their staff.

• 7:29Jesse Michels?

  Staff or something?

• 7:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, supporter.

• 7:31Jesse Michels?

  And he, and he was like, there is definitely a there there.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And then I confirmed that through a second source.

• 7:38Jesse Michels?

  Through the second source?

• 7:39Speaker 01

  He was a some hapless character. I called at Space Command and I said, I've heard there is an extraterrestrial threat whose existence is classified. I'd like to help with that program. And he said, oh, okay, here, let me see if I can connect you with somebody. And then he says, he says, we'll have to call you back on that.

• 8:02Jesse Michels?

  What was Edward Teller like? You know, obviously famous inventor of the hydrogen bomb and?

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Very animated. He had big eyebrows. You know, he's Hungarian and Jewish and he, being Hungarian, he had a congenital fear of the Russians and he was just a very, I considered him a very creative enlightened person.

• 8:29Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Yes. And?

• 8:31Jesse Michels?

  Because he's sort of, it's funny, post the movie Oppenheimer. I feel like he's painted as this sort of villain who wants to

• 8:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:38Jesse Michels?

  build a bigger and bigger bomb. And if you, if you do read his letters around the creation of the H-bomb, it, it, it does belie somebody who has a conscience, who's saying, you know, I think we need to do this for the Western world because if we don't do this, the other side is going to do it. And it's, it's actually really important that, that we, we figure this out. So yeah, what, what's your take on him? I mean?

• 9:01Speaker 01

  Oh, I, oh, I, I believe he, he was acting on instinct and he was from Hungary, which has a bad history with Russia and?

• 9:13Speaker 01

  He just intuitively felt that the Russians were working on the hydrogen bomb. And now that they had the atomic bomb, they'd gotten the atomic bomb secret. And that was what you needed to set off the hydrogen bomb. It was basically the detonator cap. And he says, we can't stop working on the hydrogen bomb because if we do, Joseph Stalin will get the hydrogen bomb and we won't have it. And Oppenheimer was suffering from a great deal of angst about the bomb being used in World War II. And he resisted this. He says, no, we don't need the atomic, we don't need the hydrogen bomb. We have the atomic bomb and the Russians will never figure out how to build a hydrogen bomb.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  And later, Teller and Sakharov actually got to meet. And Sakharov, the father of the Russian hydrogen bomb, looked at all of Teller's communiques and the back and forth and said, oh, Teller was right. We would have never stopped working on the hydrogen bomb. Joe Stalin wanted the hydrogen bomb.

• 10:16Jesse Michels?

  Did he? So you said you were working down the hall from him and he was working on hydrogen bombs? Just for the audience's perspective. So a hydrogen bomb is basically uncontrolled fusion.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  Uncontrolled fusion.

• 10:28Jesse Michels?

  And the kind of holy grail in energy would be controlled fusion.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Controlled fusion. That's why I've worked most of my career on.

• 10:37Jesse Michels?

  Did Teller believe in the ideal of cold fusion? Or not necessarily cold fusion, but controlled fusion?

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, he did. He did. And curiously enough, Andrei Sakharov is the designer of the Tokamak, which is the leading contender to be a controlled fusion.

• 10:57Jesse Michels?

  And is there a relationship between Sakharov and Teller?

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Well, they were both brilliant people and they both kind of, they thought down the same passages. They looked at the data and came to the same conclusions, even though they were completely isolated from each other.

• 11:15Jesse Michels?

  Are all the conspiracies about controlled free energy? You know, you have people in UFO world like Stephen Greer. We're like, it's the lost century. We figured this out 100 years ago with Tesla. The patents have left all these patent offices and inventors have died. And they'll go through like a laundry list of these inventors who like, you know, Stan Meyer had a car that ran on water or whatever. And like, I don't know what to think about it. Look, do I believe oligopolists kind of run the US or have for a long time? Like basically, yeah, I do. Do I believe that they would commit sort of violence to maintain their oligopoly?

• 11:54Jesse Michels?

  And ensure scarcity? Yes. Do I also simultaneously think that we have some zero point energy machine? Or controlled fusion reactor hiding in a closet at Lockheed or something? I'm not so sure. So yeah, what do you think? Are you still lugging around one of those bulky, worn out wallets?

• 12:14Speaker 03

  You know, I am.

• 12:16Jesse Michels?

  Your posture is not great due to that wallet. Are you aware of that?

• 12:20Speaker 03

  I'm currently now more self-aware of my posture.

• 12:23Jesse Michels?

  It might be time for an upgrade.

• 12:25Speaker 03

  Oh, what do you suggest?

• 12:26Jesse Michels?

  My personal suggestion is Ridge Wallet. Look at this sleek design. Do you see it?

• 12:33Speaker 03

  Oh, wow. So sleek.

• 12:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Pretty sleek.

• 12:38Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh. This thing holds up to 12 cards plus cash.

• 12:43Speaker 03

  All in a slim, durable and stylish package, too.

• 12:46Jesse Michels?

  You took the words right out of my mouth.

• 12:48Speaker 03

  Ridge wallets feature RFID blocking technology. So digital pickpockets won't stand a chance. Plus, with their AirTag attachment, you'll never lose your wallet again. Where'd it go?

• 13:01Jesse Michels?

  I lost my wallet. I was just checking my AirTag. Easy.

• 13:06Speaker 03

  Brilliant.

• 13:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. I was recently in the Colorado Mountains and if I had lost my Ridge Wallet, I would have no problem tracking it down, even in the Rockies. Right now Ridge is having their once a year anniversary sale. So get up to 40% off at ridge.com/cosmic. Just head to ridge.com/cosmic to see their biggest sale of the year. After you purchase, they will ask about where you heard about them. Where did they hear about Ridge Wallet, Chris?

• 13:34Speaker 03

  They heard it here first on American Alchemy.

• 13:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 13:38Speaker 03

  Please support our show and tell them our show sent you. Upgrade your wallet. Thank me later.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  I think that.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  Controlled fusion would be the ultimate fusion device. I mean, the ultimate energy source. Zero-point energy is very important to understand the theory of unifying gravity and electromagnetism because it's in quantum mechanics. However, according to Andrei Sakharov, the way to tap zero-point energy is have a black hole in your basement and feed it stray animals and things you don't want and get the energy, some of the energy goes into the black hole and some of it bursts out. And you don't want to have a black hole in your basement.

• 14:28Jesse Michels?

  No, that doesn't sound so great. But I guess the question is, do you think there's been a line of suppressed science that has been hidden in the black, but could amount to real civil-side updates in the way we live our lives, the way our cities are built?

• 14:45Speaker 01

  I'm not known for being a skeptic about things, but I'm a skeptic about that. I do not think, short of making your own black hole and trying to keep it in your basement, you can harness free energy. Now, I could be wrong. The times I've been wrong in my career have been mostly when I said, "This can't be done." And so, but I don't subscribe to Jim Greer's idea that the government is keeping free energy from us. I think, I do know that the fossil fuel industry is probably the most well-moneyed, most powerful lobbying group on Earth.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  There are countries where it is their entire lifeblood is fossil fuel. If you endanger that, you will take away, you'll be viewed as taking away their entire way of life. So, do I believe that there's an energy oligarchy trying to guard its turf?

• 15:51Speaker 01

  I'm afraid I do, but I, I think that because of global warming, uh, which I, I believe is happening, uh, we have to come up with a new form of energy.

• 16:05Jesse Michels?

  I sat down a couple of years ago with Eric Weinstein, an old colleague of mine, and Hal Puthoff, who's a kind of a renowned scientist.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  I love Hal, love Hal.

• 16:15Jesse Michels?

  Great guy. And Hal, you know, made some interesting comments around, there was this anti-gravity craze in the 50s. And then, you know, in the, in the 60s, it kind of just like vaporized.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Yes, it did.

• 16:26Jesse Michels?

  It kind of went, it seemed, and he goes, they either didn't get anywhere or it went black. And that was like this famous line from that interview that got like clipped a bunch. Cause you know, he's this kind of spooky insider.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  I agree with Hal.

• 16:38Speaker 04

  There's a famous, uh, series came out in Miami Herald and other newspapers in, um, probably the 50s. The author was Talbert and he did a series where he found out that a number of aerospace engineering companies were suddenly interested in anti-gravity. And that people like Dewitt on up and down, really top level physicists were suddenly getting grants to look at the idea of anti-gravity. For example, the, uh, gravity essay came along. From the Gravity Research Foundation in Boston. Right. And so it looked like it's going to be a big explosion. But anyway, then it all sort of quieted down.

• 17:23Speaker 04

  And I could take two implications of that, and that is it quieted down because no one ever got anywhere.

• 17:31Speaker 04

  Or it quieted down because it did get somewhere and it went black.

• 17:34Jesse Michels?

  So you think from Hal, that's like a, I can neither confirm nor deny statement?

• 17:38Speaker 01

  Yes, I would, I would say that.

• 17:40Jesse Michels?

  Without confirming it.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Hal, uh, Hal.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  Is still very much part of that world and he has to follow its rules.

• 17:49Jesse Michels?

  Why do you agree with how that anti-gravity updates were made and went black?

• 17:56Speaker 01

  Well, obviously, if you have anti-gravity technology, or what they call gravity modification, that's the... we're not anti-gravity here. We just want it to be a little bit more flexible.

• 18:07Jesse Michels?

  That's right.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  And so, it would have great military importance.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  Einstein worked very hard on trying to do a unified field theory to unify that, you know, there are four forces of nature. Two of them are infinite range. One is electromagnetism, one is gravity. The weak, the strong force, they run things at the size of the nucleus in the atom. And they're powerful, but they don't have long range. So Einstein just figured, okay, I can pick out the two long-range forces and unify them. And he made a lot of progress and he helped get Kaluza Klein theory, which has a hidden fifth dimension, to unify gravity. And then mathematically, he helped get that published.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  He didn't like the fifth dimension, but he decided that the math worked out so beautifully that it must be true. Fifth dimension was one of my favorite groups during the 60s, by the way.

• 19:11Jesse Michels?

  Up, up and away.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  Up, up and away.

• 19:13Jesse Michels?

  Wait, wait, but so you're saying that Einstein might have figured out the unification mathematically? Because the modern understanding is that...

• 19:21Speaker 01

  No, he, well, there's a saying that on his deathbed, he suddenly became ecstatic and started talking excitedly to his nurse in German, like he'd had a conceptual breakthrough. And the nurse didn't understand German. So then he got back in his bed, lay down, and passed away. So he died happy. So he may have some last moment. Now, Hal Puthoff and I both have come up with similar theories.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  And we just did it by just simple deduction and, you know, from physics. The nice thing about gravity theory and electromagnetism, you don't need to have a quantum theory of gravity to unify gravity and EM. There is electromagnet, you know, there's electromagnetic effect I found that looks just like gravity. You can call it radiation pressure. And Sondre Sakharov found something very similar, and this is what led Hal Podoff to develop his work. And the only thing different between my theory and Hal Podoff's theory is my theory predicts big G.

• 20:37Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  The gravitation constants and the mass of the proton. Imagine, beginning of the universe, the big bang. Before the big bang, nothing. Suddenly, one second later, the universe is a fireball of hydrogen plasma, almost pure hydrogen, like 1% neutrons, enough to trigger some, you know, nuclear reactions, but it's basically just hydrogen. So the vacuum is hardwired to make hydrogen, electrons and protons, which are both stable, they last forever.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  And so, and if you ratio their masses, it's 1836, and the square root of that is 42, which I did not know when I wrote, I did not know about Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy when I wrote my original theory and derived that result. The key number to the universe is 42.85, it turns out.

• 21:36Jesse Michels?

  Well, so I want to get into your unification theory.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:41Jesse Michels?

  Or it's the end of the episode, because I think that's. In some, to a lot of people, the most interesting, but it's also, I think, maybe the least accessible for the lay audience. How did you get into the idea that there may have been life on Mars in the past, in the distant past?

• 21:56Speaker 01

  The Viking missions had been in 1976, when I was in graduate school, and they gave the verdict, they tested for life in the soil, like I said.

• 22:08Jesse Michels?

  You want to just tell people, what are the Vikings?

• 22:10Speaker 01

  The Vikings were a very ambitious, double-probe mission. It was ultimate vacuum tube technology kind of mission. And they sent these probes to Mars, they photographed the surface of Mars in great detail with just superb cameras. They landed two landers to test the soil for life, and they got mixed results, which now can be interpreted as they found life. But at the same time, they also sampled the atmosphere and found a great excess of radiogenic isotopes. They're stable isotopes, but they're formed by powerful nuclear reactions.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  And they found that on Mars, and that made Mars unique. It was so unique that when then we started getting meteorites, we started recognizing, oh, there are these strange meteorites, and it looks like they come from Mars, and they tested the gas trapped, and they found the same, the same pattern of strange radio, strange isotopes in the Mars, what they thought were Mars meteorites, and that's how they figured out that they were from Mars, because Mars isotopic signatures are so unique in the solar system.

• 23:29Jesse Michels?

  And what exact isotopic signatures did they find?

• 23:32Speaker 01

  Well, they found a large amount of xenon-129, which is the product of two things, supernova explosions and hydrogen bomb explosions.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  And we know there was no supernova on Mars. If there was, there wouldn't be a solar system here.

• 23:51Jesse Michels?

  And you said there was one other argon?

• 23:53Speaker 01

  There was a, also, there's a, when you irradiate rocks that have potassium in them, and all rocks do, they produce a isotope called Argon 40. And that's super abundant on Mars. So you have two things that are products of what look like an intense nuclear reaction on Mars in the atmosphere.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  And they're both, they're most, the residues of that remain in the atmosphere. They're stable, they last forever. So, but they also found what looked like archaeology on Mars. And that was the, initially, the most exciting thing. I only found out the significance of the isotopes on Mars from a staffer at Sandia Labs.

• 24:47Jesse Michels?

  What's the convention, if I were to, you know, be sitting across from Neil deGrasse Tyson, you know, and I said, and I were to say, because he's-

• 24:54Speaker 01

  I've met him, he's a very pleasant fellow.

• 24:56Jesse Michels?

  He's tried to explain away, you know, the face on Sedonia or whatever, that, you know, this famous, seemingly artificial structure or whatever.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  I would love to sit down and talk with him.

• 25:04Jesse Michels?

  That'd be great to host a debate.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  So as long as they let me bring my picture of it from NASA.

• 25:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I think he would shy away from debate. I think he likes, you know, to kind of pontificate and like act smarter than, you know, everybody else on his own show, but-

• 25:19Speaker 01

  I'm calling him out, throw down, dude.

• 25:21Jesse Michels?

  I know, well, we've called him out multiple times on the-

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Throw down.

• 25:23Jesse Michels?

  And he just, I think he's afraid.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  I'll be waiting.

• 25:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, let's do it.

• 25:29Jesse Michels?

  From your lips to God's ears. But, so if I were, if I were sitting across from him, let's just, you know, a little audience surrogate devil's advocate question.

• 25:38Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 25:40Jesse Michels?

  How would he explain Xenon 129 and Argon 40?

• 25:45Speaker 01

  He can't.

• 25:47Jesse Michels?

  But he would he admit?

• 25:48Speaker 01

  That's the short answer.

• 25:49Jesse Michels?

  Would he admit?

• 25:49Speaker 01

  It isn't. Oh, he probably wouldn't admit it, but I've.

• 25:54Jesse Michels?

  No, but would he admit that we found those?

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, he would.

• 25:57Jesse Michels?

  That's a fact.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  That's a fact.

• 25:59Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  Indisputable and.

• 26:01Jesse Michels?

  So he would he would just say there's probably some other explanation, but I don't know what it is.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  But yeah, that's what he would say.

• 26:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, that's usually the case.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  And I I have reviewed the literature very carefully on this. You can imagine I'm sticking my neck out as a scientist.

• 26:15Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  But I found that the the consensus among the real experts on isotopes, not just on Mars, but other other planets and meteorites and things like this, is that there is no explanation for the xenon 129 superabundance or the argon 40 superabundance.

• 26:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. So let's get into other possible evidence. Okay, so that's really interesting. And do the two, so xenon 129, that that would come from these large hydrogen explosions?

• 26:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:48Jesse Michels?

  And then argon?

• 26:48Speaker 01

  And supernovas, but it was not a supernova on Mars.

• 26:51Jesse Michels?

  Right, and I don't think anybody would contest that.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 26:54Jesse Michels?

  It's not a star, it's a planet. So so and then the second thing, the argon 40, that's a result of some sort of explosive event with potassium, is that right?

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Well, it's it's it means a lot of potassium was irradiated by neutrons.

• 27:10Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Which is a typical byproduct of any hydrogen bomb or any atomic, any nuclear explosive produces a lot of neutrons. That's where they got the neutron bomb.

• 27:21Jesse Michels?

  And, okay, so that's interesting. Okay, so let's, that's kind of hard to argue with, right? Like, that's that's one piece of evidence, right? Now, let's let's get into other possible evidence. So water valleys seemingly across Mars?

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Oh, obviously Mars was just covered with liquid water. I was the one to find the Martian ocean.

• 27:41Jesse Michels?

  You were?

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:42Jesse Michels?

  That's, how'd you find it?

• 27:44Speaker 01

  Uh, well, actually, it was, um, we were looking at Cydonia Menza, which is a site where there's the face and then there's nearby, like five miles away, there's a five-sided pyramid. NASA never shows that picture of the face beside the pyramid together in any of their public photos because it becomes obvious.

• 28:03Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 28:04Speaker 01

  We're looking at archaeology, you know.

• 28:07Jesse Michels?

  And Cydonia is what region of Mars?

• 28:08Speaker 01

  Cydonia is in the northern part of Mars. It was considered the garden spot of Mars. They wanted to land one of the Viking landers there. But then, in something that was kind of scandalous, the people, the scientists running the Viking program, who were determining where they were gonna land, suddenly found themselves overruled by a group they didn't even know existed on the project.

• 28:32Jesse Michels?

  Who was, who were they overruled by?

• 28:34Speaker 01

  They were never sure. It's just said, NASA just said, NASA just said, basically, "The boys downtown say you can't land there."

• 28:42Jesse Michels?

  Do you have any theories?

• 28:43Speaker 01

  Oh, um, they had already taken pictures of Cydonia with the Mariner 9 and...

• 28:54Jesse Michels?

  So, Mariner 9 was pre-Viking?

• 28:56Speaker 01

  Pre-Viking. That was the one where they discovered all the water channels and the Great Veil of Marineris. But then the Viking pictures showed clearly this face and then they also found this pyramid nearby. And so, and they were doing, that was part of the surveys, to see if it was safe to land there. They were worried about hitting big rocks when the thing came down. It was a reasonable error, but then they just said, "Oh, we can't land in Cydonia Menza because it's too rocky." No, it wasn't too rocky. It was, it was the fact that the face was there and the pyramid...

• 29:30Jesse Michels?

  But who, who's, who's calling these shots?

• 29:33Speaker 01

  The intel and defense, defense department. NASA's, NASA is a, I call it a hood ornament on the mysterious black sedan, which is the real space program in this country.

• 29:45Jesse Michels?

  And that's just completely bound up with, you know, three-letter agencies?

• 29:49Speaker 01

  They make sure that they clear everything with the three-letter agencies.

• 29:52Jesse Michels?

  Okay, so you have this-

• 29:53Speaker 01

  That's my understanding.

• 29:55Jesse Michels?

  So you have this face, face of Sidonia, the Pyramid of Sidonia. You have this other artificial structure which has recently been popularized.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  The square on Mars, I call it the Mars Masada.

• 30:05Jesse Michels?

  The square on Mars. You have the even conventional understanding that there was probably water on Mars.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, there was an ocean on Mars and what happened is we found that there was a shoreline near Sidonia Menza, it was on the, it was like on the Riviera of Mars and we followed the shoreline around at the, at the, because they had good elevation contours. And we found that the elevation contour of what was called Zero Kilometer wrapped all the way around the planet and the transition in terrain was dramatic, it was rocky and rugged above that elevation and below it, it was all smooth. Obviously, it was all ocean bottom and also the river channels all fed into this basin.

• 30:51Jesse Michels?

  And, and if you're talking to a conventional astronomer or Neil deGrasse Tyson, nobody could argue with that.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  No.

• 30:57Jesse Michels?

  Like, everybody says that water probably existed on Mars.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  Well, yes, one guy kept saying it was liquid carbon dioxide, which is, which is ridiculous.

• 31:07Jesse Michels?

  And is that taken any-

• 31:08Speaker 01

  That's the only other, that's the only, you had to have something that was common that like, that was liquid to make these channels and water is the most abundant chemical compound in the universe. It's made of hydrogen and oxygen is the third most abundant element in the universe and so, so it has to be water. And so, it's been confirmed. I gave my paper at a scientific conference in 1986 to a room full of Mars scientists and yet the NASA will never mention my name.

• 31:46Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 31:46Speaker 01

  It's actually, it should be called the Brandenburg Ocean.

• 31:49Jesse Michels?

  Oh, wow.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  I just called it the Paleo Ocean of Mars and, but it should be called the Brandenburg Ocean and, but-

• 31:58Jesse Michels?

  Who, who retrieved the images first? It was the, was the Viking team or was it a telescope or?

• 32:05Speaker 01

  Oh, the, the, it was the, oh, it was the Viking team.

• 32:09Jesse Michels?

  And then, but then you sort of spotted it.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, yes.

• 32:12Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. And what were you doing at the time? What was your official title?

• 32:15Speaker 01

  Well, we were, we were investigating, we had good Mars maps, they were actually-

• 32:19Jesse Michels?

  What was your role though? Like, what was your job title?

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Oh, in the independent Mars investigation headquartered at SRI, interestingly enough.

• 32:28Jesse Michels?

  Stanford Research Institute.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  The same place where they, we found out later that the remote viewing program was just down the hall from headquarters of the Mars investigation. But, but what happened was, um, it was an informal investigation and I was just in charge of getting good pictures. We're trying to get as many pictures as possible of the face on Mars in the pyramid at Sidonia, uh, from as many different lighting angles as possible. And we had two good, really good pictures at different times of day. And then I went and looked at a different part of Mars that was also on the seashore of this ocean and found another site with two faces, one of which looks like the same

• 33:14Speaker 01

  face inside a helmet as at Sidonia. It was really, it was kind of hilarious because we discovered it and we, we published it and, uh, Carl Sagan had actually called me on the phone.

• 33:28Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 33:29Speaker 01

  And I was very deeply honored, but he, his basically his conversation is, "Brandenburg, nobody ever calls me John, they always call me Brandon. Brandenburg, why are you causing this trouble?"

• 33:39Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 33:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:40Jesse Michels?

  He said, "Why are you causing this trouble?"

• 33:43Speaker 01

  I was at Sanyalabs, I'm working on directed energy weapons and he calls up, you know, I get this phone call and he says, uh, you know, this is Carl Sagan, I want to talk to Brandon, Brandenburg and he's, I said, "You're talking to him?" And he says, "Why are you causing this trouble?"

• 33:59Jesse Michels?

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• 34:44Jesse Michels?

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• 35:29Jesse Michels?

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• 35:41Speaker 01

  Implying that he knew more. Oh, yeah, he knew all sorts of stuff and apparently I was. I was the first author on this paper we'd given at this conference. And so he kind of was very dismissive. Then we found the second face and we advertised that at this conference. And the face and it was some place they just called it Utopia. And so I got a phone call, another phone call from him. He said, I'm sorry, I was kind of short with you on the phone.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  And I said, you know, we found another face. He says, yes, I heard about that. Could you send me a copy maybe of this space, a picture of it and tell me where it is? And I said, sure. So I, I had a bunch of pictures and I stuffed them in an envelope. And I said, you know, I got his address. Carl Sagan at Cornell University Astronomy Department. And I put it in the mailbox and I actually watched the mailbox truck take it away and go. And then at that time I was at Sandy Alabs and I left there. And in the next month, and I was moving to Washington DC to work at Mission Research Corporation, really excellent scientific organization, supporting the Pentagon and the agencies.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  And so when I got there, I gave him a call, I gave his office a call and I said, you know, what'd you think of the, you know, I just talked to his secretary, I said, oh, this is Brandenburg checking in, I'm in Washington DC now, just wondered what he thought of the pictures. And in those days, people didn't have cell phones. It was all, if you were lucky, you had a beeper. Yeah. And so, over the next, and I'm going in and out because we're doing all these marketing meetings, it's the Reagan arms build, oh my God, there's all this work going on and Star Wars and stuff. Every time I come back to the office, the office manager, who's this really nice lady, says, John, Carl Sagan called and wants to talk to you.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  And I would get on the phone to his office, and of course, he wasn't there. And so we played telephone tag for two weeks. Mm-hmm. And finally, I'm talking with my boss about, we're gonna go to Naval Research Lab and pitch this program. And the office manager walks in and she says, John has a phone call. And my boss just looks at her like really annoyed, like what is this, you know, why are you interrupting our meeting? And she says, it's Carl Sagan. Mm-hmm. So, and my boss looked really amazed and said, well, I guess you better take the call, John. So, it gave me instant credibility. I mean, everybody's talked about me because of my Mars work, this, you know. Well, they were like, yeah, why is Carl Sagan always...

• 38:32Speaker 01

  But, well, they real, they kind of made fun of me as the Mars guy, and then suddenly, Carl Sagan is trying to get a hold of me all the time. And so I go to my office and here's Carl Sagan on the phone, and I said, well, Carl, what'd you think of the pictures? He says, I never got them.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  And we both had this long moment of silence. I said, okay, here's the frame number. Here's the long lat. Here's the, you know, I'm gonna fax you a copy right now. You know, just give me a fax number and I'll fax it to you. And that's what we did in those days before internet. And he said, thank you. And he called me back later and said, you know, this isn't as big as the first one. I said, it's about two, I said, yes, about two thirds of size. He says, but yeah, it's very interesting. He said, it's very interesting.

• 39:25Jesse Michels?

  And that was it?

• 39:26Speaker 01

  And that was it. That was it. And then they changed the name of the region from being just Utopia to Galaxis Chaos.

• 39:36Jesse Michels?

  What's the significance of that?

• 39:38Speaker 01

  Chaos means kind of cliffy ground. So it was kind of a technical description. But it was apparent I had thrown somebody's galaxy into chaos by finding this second face of Mars that looked like the first face of Cydonians. And now it's been confirmed it is another face. By this point, we knew we'd found a dead civilization on Mars.

• 40:04Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  And I will, I will be very honest with you. When we found the second face, we also found shots of the first face in Viking pictures showing it illuminated in the morning. So you could see that it was symmetrical, right and left. And then I'd found, I'd found and digested the isotopic evidence. And when it all kind of sitting in my office, it all hit me. I wept like a child for about four minutes.

• 40:37Jesse Michels?

  Why?

• 40:37Speaker 01

  Because they're all dead. It looked like a thermonuclear holocaust and had happened there. And we were so afraid it would happen on Earth, working at San Diego Labs. And I just, I just was just overcome with grief. After a few minutes, I said, get a hold of yourself. I just started, I said, get a hold of yourself, get a grip. You know, and I said, don't be sad, be happy. Because now you know. Now you know. The universe has no safety net. Bad things can happen in the universe and make sure they don't happen here. So it became, I became very, very dedicated at that point to see that we have a

• 41:22Speaker 01

  human mission to Mars, boots on the ground, to find out exactly what happened on Mars, to make sure it doesn't happen here. That's my focus.

• 41:34Jesse Michels?

  Isn't one popular theory, even again, conventional circles, that Mars had a magnetosphere?

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:42Jesse Michels?

  And that allowed for water to exist and stuff? And that its magnetosphere was somehow stripped?

• 41:48Speaker 01

  Well, Mars is only half the size of Earth. It has about one-eighth the mass of Earth. What that means is its core would have cooled off quicker. And the molten core is what allows the liquid iron dynamo that generates the magnetic field on Earth to exist. So Mars may have just run out of gas, but...

• 42:12Jesse Michels?

  Okay, so the magnetosphere just died out?

• 42:15Speaker 01

  It just died out.

• 42:17Jesse Michels?

  And that wasn't, so you think they had actually extincted themselves before that or after that?

• 42:22Speaker 01

  I think so. I think so. I think Mars...

• 42:27Jesse Michels?

  And for the audience, the magnetosphere would allow a biosphere to exist?

• 42:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:32Jesse Michels?

  Would allow water, but also possibly life?

• 42:35Speaker 01

  Well, and it's, as they're finding out at Chernobyl, by the way, life can thrive in areas with a lot of radiation. It just mutates faster.

• 42:44Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  And so accelerated evolution on Mars may have proceeded after the magnetosphere died. But there's other things going on. Mars looks like it had a dense atmosphere with a nice greenhouse going. On Mars, greenhouse effect was not a bad word. It helped Mars to have Earth-like temperatures, even though it's farther from the sun. And what happened then was, suddenly all that was gone. Something, some cataclysm, what looks like a thermonuclear holocaust, blew most of the atmosphere off into space. So it's only got a thin, tenuous atmosphere left. And it leaked all its heat.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  And a greenhouse, planetary greenhouse traps heat. So even the core stays hotter. So it could have accelerated the decline of the magnetosphere on Mars, losing its atmosphere. And there's still areas of Mars that are still strongly magnetized, and they found aurora over them.

• 43:52Jesse Michels?

  Due to the magnetic sealed presence?

• 43:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:56Jesse Michels?

  Wasn't there a meteorite found in Alaska as well in the 90s that Clinton then spoke about publicly?

• 44:03Speaker 01

  Actually, it was found in Antarctica, and that was ALH 8401. There's a certain type of meteorite called CI Carbonaceous Chondrites. They're basically old lake bottom from some planet.

• 44:17Jesse Michels?

  And this meteorite was from Mars?

• 44:19Speaker 01

  Yes. And that was a piece of lava, but it had a vein of carbonate inside, you know, limestone, and it was full of organic matter.

• 44:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it looked like bacterial fossils.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  It looked like bacterial fossils in there. I found their evidence rather convincing, but they were attacked viciously.

• 44:38Jesse Michels?

  We have archaeological structures on Mars that seem to imply that water existed at the very least.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  Oh, yes.

• 44:45Jesse Michels?

  We have, you know, conventional astronomers saying, you know, there was probably a magnetosphere back in the day, and that would allow for a biosphere.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  Yes, it would.

• 44:54Jesse Michels?

  And then you have these artificial...

• 44:57Speaker 01

  You don't even need, you know, there could have been water in the ocean, life in the oceans without even it being on land, and it would survive the radiation because the seawater stops all the radiation.

• 45:07Jesse Michels?

  Right, right. And then you have you have artificial structures. And then you have Carl Sagan calling you, saying, why are you making all this trouble? So there's a seems like a decent amount of evidence that at least, at the very least, this is worthy of further investigation. And, you know, maybe we should move our probability from 0% life on Mars to much higher than that.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  Oh, I think the data has received...

• 45:32Jesse Michels?

  And then you have the isotopes.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  Has achieved critical mass now.

• 45:35Jesse Michels?

  And you have the isotopes, which are really like the which nobody can explain, the xenon 129 and the argon 40. So this brings up another question, which is, you know, I just interviewed Joseph McMonigal. Who's remote viewer number one in the

• 45:49Speaker 01

  Remote viewer number

• 45:50Jesse Michels?

  Psychics by program. And he was given, this is now public and declassified. He was given coordinates to remote view on Mars.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:59Jesse Michels?

  A million years in the past.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:01Jesse Michels?

  And so you can say that like, you know, as a modality, remote viewing is imperfect. But the fact that he's being given coordinates for a million years ago is fascinating. And so what do you, and then I was just at his place and he's showing me all these correspondences between him and JPL people or whatever and like, and with these photos that they're sending him. And I'm like, are you, are you sure this is real and you're not being like duped or whatever? And he's, he's showing me these photos of tons of artificial structures on Mars. And I'm like, he's basically implying to me that it's an open secret at Jet Propulsion Lab that there was life on Mars. And I'm like, why are they not publicly making a statement about this? And he's like, oh, well, they don't need to. And I'm like, well, what are you talking about?

• 46:45Jesse Michels?

  Like, yield the grass, tides, like these, these other, you know, citadel keepers.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  I know.

• 46:50Jesse Michels?

  Rule of the day. So, so, but no, but

• 46:52Speaker 01

  The old guard of Mars.

• 46:54Jesse Michels?

  At, if you were to walk into JPL and talk to, you know, a random sampled scientist there, randomly sampled scientist there. If you were to walk into JPL and you were to talk to a randomly sampled scientist there and say, hey, like there was, I think there was life on Mars, you know, a long time ago, and they might've, you know, extincted themselves. What would they say? Would they call you crazy and laugh you out of the room or?

• 47:19Speaker 01

  Their eyes would dart around to, to see if there were being, or anyone was listening. And then they'd say, yes, but don't tell anybody I told you so.

• 47:29Jesse Michels?

  Why is that, why is that not some like, you know, thing that humanity should just immediately know? That's just interesting and exciting and

• 47:37Speaker 01

  Uh, it's

• 47:40Speaker 01

  My explanation is it's partly due to just old fashioned institutional politics and agendas. Jet Propulsion Lab versus, you know, the robotic space program versus the human space program based at Houston. But it also has to do with the chilling effect on American science and global science because of the UFO cover up. I, you know, I can say the Mars bone is connected to the UFO bone and the UFO bone is connected to the head bone of this government.

• 48:19Jesse Michels?

  And so it would be disruptive from like a we are the sole authority on Earth or disruptive from a religious perspective and it would just kind of upset people's worldviews and that sort of stuff?

• 48:29Speaker 01

  That's, that's, there's a great deal to that and that's, and that's kind of old fashioned thinking. People's, the public's understanding and awareness has evolved sufficiently now that if you told them there was life on Mars, they would just accept it, especially bacterial life. And even a dead civilization on Mars is not threatening. It's not going to invade us.

• 48:50Jesse Michels?

  We've gone so far beyond, we're saying that there are saucers and hangers at aerospace corporations and stuff and like, you know, people are getting into all this psychic stuff.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  I know.

• 49:00Jesse Michels?

  There's the number one podcast in the country for a bit was the telepathy tapes. And, and, and you're saying that people can't believe that, you know, a million years in the past, there, there was life on Mars. If anything, we live in this multipolar world that's a, a complete powder keg where you have mutually assured destruction between global powers that have nuclear arsenals. It would be an amazing wake up call.

• 49:21Speaker 01

  Oh, it would be, it'd be wonderful. But at the same time, you, you've got to realize the public needs to be brought up to speed. It's, it's.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  Once you find life on Mars, then you know there's life in the stars. It's just a given. If it's here on Earth, and it was on Mars, and it's still on Mars, by the way. There's a remnant biosphere there. And we have very strong evidence for that. Then, then they know, people know that there's life elsewhere in the cosmos. They've gotten over the first hurdle. The second hurdle is, are we the only intelligent life in the universe? And then you find the Martian archaeology, and then you realize, oh, no. We're not the only intelligent culture in the universe. There's a dead humanoid civilization.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  It's interesting, the faces look human. They don't look like lizard men, they don't look like praying manuses, they don't look like little gray aliens.

• 50:28Jesse Michels?

  You think the faces are face, because there is a concept called pareidolia.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  Oh, sure.

• 50:33Jesse Michels?

  Where you see a face because it's a pattern that you're used to seeing, or whatever.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:38Jesse Michels?

  And so you're sure that that face is a monument that was specifically built to resemble.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's slightly eroded, like all archaeology. You look at pictures of the Sphinx when it was first photographed, it looks like hell. They've spruced it up a lot for the tourist bureau in Egypt because it's money, you know? People want to come there and see this good face. But the thing is, is that there's pareidolia, and there's also another phenomenon in Egypt that's called denial. It's called denial. Denial is not just a river in Egypt. There's what's called a reverse hallucination. Means you see a pattern there clearly, but you deny it exists because the implications of it are unacceptable.

• 51:28Jesse Michels?

  So who is covering this up? Who's at the top of the pyramid, so to speak? You know, no pun intended, understanding, you know, that there is like, because another, one more piece of evidence, you have Haime Shed, who ran the Israeli version of Space Force, so all their, you know, space signals, comms, I think he won some like national security wars and, you know, for the, for Israel, three times or something.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 51:55Jesse Michels?

  He's like very well respected.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  Yes, he is.

• 51:57Jesse Michels?

  And in conventional circles. And I actually am in touch with like an understudy of his.

• 52:03Speaker 01

  Ah, very good, very good.

• 52:04Jesse Michels?

  And.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  The Mossad knows.

• 52:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  The Mossad, they know. It's their business to know.

• 52:11Jesse Michels?

  I'm sure they do.

• 52:14Jesse Michels?

  And so, and hopefully, I would love for Haime to speak and for him to come out because that would be such an amazing crossing of the Rubicon as far as his background and credentials.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  We're talking.

• 52:25Jesse Michels?

  He's getting older. But he says that there's a galactic federation, that there are like factions of aliens fighting each other and that there are American astronauts working with aliens underground in Mars? That there's like a biosphere under, underground or something? Is that, does that seem crazy to you?

• 52:46Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm amazed he's saying that.

• 52:51Jesse Michels?

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• 54:15Speaker 01

  All it requires is a nice breakthrough and propulsion and contact. And it's certainly plausible in a science fiction sense. I, I tend to believe that we should just have a public program to send astronauts to Mars. But my, my basic thing is, one, two, three, you go, there's life on Mars, past and present. There's a dead civilization on Mars that looked just like us and built stuff that looks like us. It's not a threat to us. It's not threatening. They look primitive. They look Bronze Age. They were, look human. They, and they're dead. And did

• 54:55Speaker 01

  I forget to mention, they're dead. They can't, you know, they can't invade us. And that means, but something happened up there that looks like it may have been that they were attacked from space by somebody else. We have to go up there to Mars and find out what happened as quickly as possible to make sure it doesn't happen here. And you don't tell me you're going to send a bunch of rovers up there. You could drive rovers around Cydonia Menza for years and not, maybe not find anything. You have to go up there and dig. Ask any archaeologist. Archaeology is based on digs. You have to get astronauts or with tools.

• 55:35Speaker 01

  Shovels, they have to dig down, they have to find hieroglyphs and

• 55:41Jesse Michels?

  And you think, so you think that

• 55:42Speaker 01

  So we have to go up there.

• 55:44Jesse Michels?

  The final, you know, I keep saying, I keep saying the final piece of evidence. Another interesting data point is Donald Trump on Joe Rogan experience. He immediately pointed to Mars. He goes, you know, he goes, the men, he goes, the, the, the, the people from space. He's talking about JFK and then he goes, what do you think about the people from space? And then immediately there's some weird non sequitur to Mars.

• 56:08Speaker 05

  There's no reason not to think that Mars and all these planets don't have life, you know, because

• 56:13Speaker 01

  Well, Mars, we've had probes there and rovers and I don't think there's any life there.

• 56:17Speaker 05

  Well, maybe it's life that we don't know, but maybe

• 56:19Speaker 01

  Well, maybe there was life there at one point in time.

• 56:21Jesse Michels?

  Do you think like the highest levels of our government are aware?

• 56:24Speaker 01

  Yes, they are. Yes, they are.

• 56:25Jesse Michels?

  Okay. And, and there's just some tacit cover up because of some kind of Cold War secrecy overhang of not wanting to kind of rock the boat.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  Well, the, the UFO cover up is the, the crown jewels. But the, you know, the treasury, the box of treasure is actually on Mars.

• 56:45Jesse Michels?

  What about the moon? Is the moon bound up? Cause there are some weird

• 56:49Speaker 01

  Well, we've already, you know, we've been to the front side of the moon. If people want to watch Earth and monitor our stuff, then the moon is strategic. So you would have bases there, but you have them on the far side, interestingly enough. It's almost as if you're afraid we'll see them. The UFO cover up people didn't want any extraterrestrial life or intelligence talked about. But Mars, my, my view is the human race is extremely fortunate. We have a nearby planet easily accessible just by chemi, we don't even use, need to use breakthrough propulsion to get there.

• 57:28Speaker 01

  We can get there with sheet metal, liquid propane or methane, liquid natural gas and liquid oxygen. And you can make that on Mars to refuel. I mean, it's, I mean, we've got all these rovers roving around. It's very easy. Has anyone interfered with us doing this? No. They want us to get acquainted with the fact that we're not alone in the universe. I, I believe the Galactic Federation, whatever you call them.

• 57:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  They want us to advance and they're, they're watching out for us, but Mars is a golden opportunity for the US government to advance disclosure without making the public feel threatened.

• 58:09Jesse Michels?

  Various, yeah, I like that. That's like a political, yeah.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  You don't want, you don't want, it's the bad signal.

• 58:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, okay, let's hope the right people hear that. That would be an interesting kind of.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  Elon Musk can call me anytime he wants.

• 58:25Jesse Michels?

  I love it.

• 58:26Speaker 01

  And I'll take calls from President, the President too, President Trump.

• 58:31Jesse Michels?

  I'm sure you will. You mentioned a name earlier, Richard Hoagland. He wrote, he wrote a couple of books.

• 58:38Speaker 01

  Wrote a couple of books.

• 58:39Jesse Michels?

  He wrote Dark Mission and then another one about monuments on Mars.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  He's a brilliant guy.

• 58:44Jesse Michels?

  The Dark Mission stuff gets into like NASA being some like occult ritualistic, you know, like organization, literally like doing, doing launches at specific times of the day and year and engaging in rituals.

• 59:03Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't know. I don't believe in it.

• 59:06Jesse Michels?

  You don't believe any of that?

• 59:07Speaker 01

  My favorite quote about Jet Propulsion Lab is actually from Whitley Striebler, who I've sat down with a couple of times. And he said, one of the management's people had said at Jet Propulsion Lab, they were talking about finding life on Mars and one manager had scolded the rest of the managers, saying, "Don't you realize that life on Mars means death for JPL?" Because that'll mean Houston. This is, this is, this is Houston versus Pasadena.

• 59:40Jesse Michels?

  Ah.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  And Mars, right now, is an all-you-can-eat buffet for Jet Propulsion.

• 59:48Jesse Michels?

  Why is it, why is it death for JPL?

• 59:50Speaker 01

  Because it means that they'll get, all the money will go to the human spaceflight, not robotics.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  And by the way.

• 59:57Jesse Michels?

  But well, you would, you, that's really limited.

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  Well, that's, that's very limited. I don't believe that. I don't believe that, but they do.

• 1:00:05Jesse Michels?

  That can't be the over, that, I mean, they have to be smarter than to actually believe that. I'm sorry, but like, you have to believe that if we found life on Mars, you would get a net increase both on the robotics and human side as far as exploration.

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  Of course you would.

• 1:00:19Jesse Michels?

  I, my, my.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  But that's not the way, if you're in upper management at Jet Propulsion Lab, you might not look at it that way.

• 1:00:26Jesse Michels?

  You're risk averse and you're, you're, you're a bureaucrat and you, you don't get fired, you don't want to rock the boat. I understand all those local incentives, but the idea that you wouldn't have more resources poured into your organization, um, which ultimately is probably even good for your local incentives if you were higher up there. But you are talking about this ontological truth that rocks the boat on a social level.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  Rocks the boat.

• 1:00:50Jesse Michels?

  And usually the people that work at these places are not selected for, based on their, you know, desire to rock the boat. So.

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:57Jesse Michels?

  Uh, yeah. I could see how emergently you'd net out anti-disclosure of something like this, maybe. But I still think it's ridiculous and like, they should just disclose it if they believe that.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  The amounts of money get large enough, even ridiculous, things that normal, people like us would think are ridiculous, become concerns. And, um, they, uh, they view that, uh, things are working fine. Why fix it? Why change anything?

• 1:01:28Jesse Michels?

  Can, can you, so, cause I'm sure a lot of people are going to accuse both of us of being quacky or crazy just because.

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  Oh, get used to that.

• 1:01:35Jesse Michels?

  Of course. Uh, I am used to it. But, um, is there anything you can say about updates in tech or science that you've contributed to, just in a conventional sense?

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:01:46Jesse Michels?

  So that like, they don't think you're some insane person.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  Oh, they, uh, I invented the water, uh, based microwave electrothermal thruster.

• 1:01:55Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:01:56Speaker 01

  And using water as fuel. And I got it working and now it's flown in space successfully.

• 1:02:01Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing.

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  And it uses just, just still water as fuel and uses microwaves.

• 1:02:06Jesse Michels?

  Where's it being used?

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  Uh, well, it's being flown in a spacecraft. They they found it with, you know, they fired it in space to raise the orbit of the spacecraft. It was a space tug.

• 1:02:15Jesse Michels?

  What company operational?

• 1:02:17Speaker 01

  Momentous.

• 1:02:18Jesse Michels?

  Momentous Space?

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:02:19Jesse Michels?

  They do like ride share and space tugs and?

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  They're doing space tugs. I worked there as a consultant for a summer and got everything running for them. And um, so it was it was great fun and I have the patent on it. Uh, and I think the patents expired. They waited till the patent had expired and then hired me as a consultant to get it to fly. So it's it's a so that was one thing I did. Um, I'm also the only person who's gotten a simple formula for big G with no diddle factors in it. I took it to a string theory conference and presented it there and they gave me the ultimate compliment at that conference.

• 1:02:56Jesse Michels?

  What did they say?

• 1:02:56Speaker 01

  They got mad at me.

• 1:02:57Jesse Michels?

  Ah, that's great.

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  Because they never been able to derive the value of the gravitation constant from string theory.

• 1:03:03Jesse Michels?

  How do you like the thing about theories of everything which you have, it's so hard. You know, I'm like, I'm, yeah, like my buddy Eric Weinstein, he has a theory of everything called geometric unity. You have quantum loop gravity. You have?

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  That's been discredited now.

• 1:03:20Jesse Michels?

  Sure. You have string theory. You have so many theories of everything. And if you're

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  My theory is not a theory of everything. It's a theory of basically what's observed, pretty much.

• 1:03:33Jesse Michels?

  You have Wolfram physics. My point is, is like?

• 1:03:36Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Well, you know, we're all we're all trying to solve the big problem. It's the Einstein unification problem we're trying to solve. But the string theory people have gotten distracted by adding 11 new dimensions when all you need is actually just one new dimension.

• 1:03:51Jesse Michels?

  Can you?

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  That's the that's actually the thumb on the hand.

• 1:03:54Jesse Michels?

  The fifth dimensional. Can you experimentally prove your theory?

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:58Jesse Michels?

  How?

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  Oh, I presented at a conference. We got experiments where we found we could pulse electromagnetic fields and get a local weakening of gravity that we could easily measure. It was like a one part per thousand. It wasn't, you know, we didn't have any flying around the room. It was was basically like coils, these balloons that we could turn on the power and they

• 1:04:21Jesse Michels?

  If you, if you got some physicists from Stanford or MIT or whatever to, you know, try to stress test the experimental protocol, would they have anything they'd be able to say? Like get to discredit the experiment?

• 1:04:33Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:04:34Jesse Michels?

  So, this is what I

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I, I got up, we have three different methods of doing this. And I presented at the APS meeting, Gravity Modification.

• 1:04:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:45Speaker 01

  And, you know, and I, I'm, I'm waiting for somebody to verify it because we

• 1:04:51Jesse Michels?

  It's, it's, it's interesting, and I don't know, you know, I don't know if your theory is right or wrong. But like, it's interesting, I speak to a lot of these scientists at prestigious places, like a buddy who's a PhD, you know, physics at Stanford. And I'm like, you know, talking to him about experiments that could prove various theories of everything. And he's always like, it needs a wow factor. And I'm always like, well, why, if it, what if it doesn't have a wow factor, but it just like measures out accurately on this thing and like you can, you can

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  He's talking about a big budget.

• 1:05:21Jesse Michels?

  No, but that, it's true. It's like you have all these competing theories of everything and a lot of them are attached to scientists like yourself who seem like they've done credible things in other areas. So like you can't a priori just write off. But the, the theory is

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  That doesn't stop anyone.

• 1:05:39Jesse Michels?

  But the theory is sort of sitting in this like liminal space where you're like, I got this small effect. And then like, I'm waiting for peer review or whatever. Like, nobody else is qualified to peer review it. And like, the effects are small. And it's just extremely, it's frustrating.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  Oh, it, it is frustrating, but I've learned to become patient and you know, I presented at a conference and it was well received. I showed everything on how to do it.

• 1:06:05Jesse Michels?

  What do, what do you need resources wise to make this more consistent?

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  You can do these experiments for about, the simplest experiment you do for about $200. And then the other ones

• 1:06:16Jesse Michels?

  The simplest experiment you can do for $200?

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:06:19Jesse Michels?

  Are you serious?

• 1:06:20Speaker 01

  It's just a mile an hour balloon with some toy motor armature hung beneath it. You hit it with about 30 watts of AC power at about 400 hertz and it will get a little bit lighter and the balloon will rise.

• 1:06:35Jesse Michels?

  So you'll see weight reduction?

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  You see weight reduction and it's it's just a balloon. It's just it's just something hanging below but I have a video of it and I can and and and then we also did we hung it from hung a coil is the the best way to do it is use Tesla three-phase rotating power, which is very commonly used now in a lot of motors for drones. It's very lightweight, very compact, very powerful. And we got things to lose like they weighed 100 grams and we get them to lose like half a gram.

• 1:07:14Jesse Michels?

  Can you explain what's happening to cause the weight reduction?

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  Uh, yes, I mean, we have what's called a vacuum Bernoulli equation, which basically says, if you imagine, uh, people are used to electric lines of force. That's, you know, that's, you know, somebody touching a vandit graph generator and their hair all stands up. Those are electric lines of force. Uh, the the hair basically is materializing those and then magnetic lines of force, you just shake, put a piece of paper over a magnet and shake iron filings. You see these lines of force from the magnetism. And then gravity has lines of force too. It's basically just, you know, raindrops follow lines of force and gravity.

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  And, um, apparently, uh, we get the lines of force to, um, basically move away from the object and just be surround, uh, just concentrated in the areas around the object. And so the object itself feels less gravity. And that's the center of mass. And so the it it if it's like hung underneath a balloon, uh, the balloon will rise and and uh, cause it's more buoyant, you know, it's less uh, there's less force resisting the force of buoyancy and then, or you can put it on a chemical scale and do it that way. People don't like doing a chemical scale because they, you know, it looks like, well, maybe the electromagnetic field's interfering with

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  the coy, uh, the um, uh, chemical scale, but we were able to show that that wasn't happening.

• 1:08:49Jesse Michels?

  So you're where, where in your, in your theory, where does gravity and electromagnetism, where do they unify?

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  Okay, they unify, the key to unify on gravity electromagnetism is called the pointing vector. Do you combine electric and magnetic fields? Like in a ray of light, it points in the direction of the travel of the light photon, the light ray, uh, and it's, it's the, the direction of the radiation pressure. Um, the theory I proposed shows that gravity can be thought of as a form of radiation pressure. Uh, and this is also what put off's idea that and Sakharov's idea that this radiation pressure produced by the zero point fluctuations. Um, if you put, um,

• 1:09:38Jesse Michels?

  Why is, why is gravity constant or proportional to mass if it's caused by zero point fluctuations?

• 1:09:45Speaker 01

  Uh, because the mass, um, in a sense, kind of absorbs the zero point, some of the zero point. So, uh, if you have two objects in a room or a weightless, let's say you have a box on the space station, no gravity, you have, uh, and it's a dark box and you put two bright objects in there, they will repel each other due to mutual radiation pressure.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  But if you turn the box white-hot, and then have two dark objects in there, they'll actually attract each other because of mutual shadowing with a 1 over r squared force, the same as gravity. And that's a conceptual way, but then, of course, there's a plasma physics way where you you have two plates charged differently so that there's electric field between them and a magnetic field running down the plates across the faces of the plates. And everything, every charged particle you put in there, regardless of mass, regardless of charge, all drift in the same direction at the same rate. Then if you can't the, if you tilt the plates relative to each other,

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  they all accelerate at the same rate, and it looks just like gravity. And so I wrote the theory around that. One interesting result of it is that when you combine that with the tensor, metric tensor formulation of general relativity in Einstein, you get that the vacuum weighs nothing, which is reassuring. The anti-gravity effect of the zero-point fluctuations actually neutralize their own mass so that the gravity ends up weighing nothing, in my theory. And then, of course, it involves also the fifth dimension, so you can show that you can derive the value of the gravitation constant.

• 1:11:41Jesse Michels?

  DARPA funded you to work on this?

• 1:11:43Speaker 01

  Yes, 200 grand.

• 1:11:44Jesse Michels?

  And what did, what happened at the end of that?

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  I handed them a report, and they said, "Thank you, Dr. Brainerd. Here's your check. Don't let the door hit you when you go out of the building."

• 1:11:57Jesse Michels?

  They didn't say, "We think this is valid or invalid."

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  Oh, some of them said that they thought this was quite valid, and they were very pleased. But others, but the head of the whole program who was signing all, the head of the program? Had a very poker face and he just said, "Thank you, Dr. Brandenburg, for your help." So I got the feeling that they wanted to know what I knew.

• 1:12:21Jesse Michels?

  I had a DARPA program manager in here named John Blitch, and he didn't say this, this is my speculation, but he kept having these programs, in certain cases with nine-figure budgets.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:12:32Jesse Michels?

  Hundreds of millions, and they seemed to get, start to get successful results, or at least be very promising at the start, and then they would sort of go into a black box and like, you know, they would disappear.

• 1:12:44Speaker 01

  It happens. It means you're doing good work.

• 1:12:47Jesse Michels?

  So that means you're doing good work, because you think it's being funneled into some sort of...

• 1:12:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's going, it's going black.

• 1:12:52Jesse Michels?

  You think that's gone black? Do you think that's going to the legacy UFO program?

• 1:12:56Speaker 01

  No, I think it'll all come out. In fact, what's interesting...

• 1:12:59Jesse Michels?

  Well, no, where's that going? Where's the work going, though, when it gets funneled?

• 1:13:03Speaker 01

  Oh, Site 51.

• 1:13:05Jesse Michels?

  Area 51?

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, they probably found some parts of my theory interesting. I think they had a working kind of engineering, working model of it that gave them, you know, the effects they wanted, but they always wanted to get, you know, a more polished physics model.

• 1:13:22Jesse Michels?

  Were you ever, did they ever try to recruit you to legacy UFO efforts, or...?

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  I sensed that they were kind of trying to do that at one point, but...

• 1:13:34Jesse Michels?

  What happened?

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  I was blackballed by somebody, and that's okay. I decided I was probably fortunate, because I would have ended up at Site 51, and a lot of bad stuff happens out there.

• 1:13:47Jesse Michels?

  Who blackballed you, and how did they approach you initially?

• 1:13:51Speaker 01

  Oh, well, I was talking to one of the intel agency's people, and they...

• 1:13:58Jesse Michels?

  What, can you say which agency?

• 1:14:00Speaker 01

  I'd rather not.

• 1:14:01Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  And then they, they kind of invited me to discuss things more deeply, and then... Then I was invited to the headquarters of this agency and went through a very bruising kind of interrogation about something else, and they, it was like this person...

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  Didn't want me involved and he was trying to make me look like I was a bad person, you know, and so what was funny is the person who was trying to recruit me apologized to me before I even went into the room to meet with these people. And he says, I'm sorry, John, about what's gonna happen. Basically, he was telling me I had been blackmailed.

• 1:14:54Jesse Michels?

  And who was the, and so, yeah, who was the person blackballing you? Do you have a sense of?

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  I didn't know his name at the time. I found out his name later, but I'd rather not talk about it.

• 1:15:05Jesse Michels?

  Oh, you want to talk about it?

• 1:15:06Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:15:07Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:15:07Speaker 01

  It was in the, you know, it was in the lower levels of an interesting building and I just, you know, it was, all of us have, have good and bad days as scientists and it was, I didn't feel badly about what my answers were, but they, this one person was very unhappy with me. And so it was kind of his way of getting me ruled out. And so it was, it was an adventure, but I've, you know, I'd also become aware that a lot of the safety considerations that you find at a normal government facility are not followed at Site 51. And also-

• 1:15:48Jesse Michels?

  Have you been to Area 51?

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  No, never been there. And, but I've, I've heard of cases of people, you know, being told to dispose of very hazardous materials, getting sick and getting cancer. And then they ask, well, what was I, you know, what was I handling that gave me this, this thing? And they said, you don't work here anymore. You never worked here. This place doesn't exist. And one guy had to take pictures of it from the highway and said, I used to work there. He had to tell a federal judge, see this, all these buildings in the distance in the desert? I used

• 1:16:31Speaker 01

  to work there. And the government attorneys denied seeing any buildings in the pictures.

• 1:16:37Jesse Michels?

  Jesus.

• 1:16:38Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:16:39Jesse Michels?

  That's horrible.

• 1:16:40Speaker 01

  It was. And I, so I was very glad I didn't end up there. And they were, they were basically, the people were basically told-

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  Take this stuff out to, you know, the back 40, dig a big pit with a bulldozer, hose it down with diesel and burn it.

• 1:17:00Jesse Michels?

  Jesus.

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  And then they, they stood there and the smoke and, and the, the orders were so stupid that it was upwind of the facility. So this, this horrible chemical smoke got all over the facility. Everyone was coughing and wheezing and they then developed cancer, lung cancers from what it is they were disposing of. And that's when they tried to, and the government then fired them all and wouldn't cover their medical costs. It was just a, it was just a, it was, it was a horror story. And they, they, yeah, the crucial day was they, they showed a picture of Site 51 taken from some viewpoint on the highway where you can actually

• 1:17:44Speaker 01

  see it. And the federal judge said, yeah, I see the buildings there. And they said, that's where we used to work. And, and the government attorney said, we don't see any pictures. We don't see any buildings in those pictures.

• 1:17:55Jesse Michels?

  Have you heard of a Z machine?

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  I used to work next to the Z machine at Sandia.

• 1:18:00Jesse Michels?

  What is that?

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  Well, it was what's called a Z pinch means Zeta. It means you're running a bunch, a kind of a miniature lightning bolt through a chamber and it, the magnetic force crushes the plasma. So you can get fusion that way. And it's a way to get fusion. And at Sandia Labs, they decided to make the chamber really small and the bank of capacitors that powered it really big. We're talking a million lightning strikes worth of power.

• 1:18:34Jesse Michels?

  Do you think you get with sort of high energy physics, directed energy, that sort of thing, do you think you get weird side effects with time? Because in general relativity, gravity and time are related. And, you know, if you get enough, maybe, you know, energy output, you might mess with, with gravity somehow, you know, even if, you know, like that stress energy tensor, Einstein's equations, you'd need like an infinite amount of, of energy, but maybe there are ways to amplify that per this Navy scientist Sal Pies's work. Can you, via very high amounts of electromagnetism, kind of break spacetime itself?

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  Oh, I believe it's quite possible.

• 1:19:16Jesse Michels?

  And then what, where does that lead you ontologically? Cause I-

• 1:19:19Speaker 01

  Well, if it gives you warp drive, you can open up maybe a portal to Alpha Centauri. Uh, you know, there's time with a, you know, a wormhole connecting you to Alpha Centauri.

• 1:19:30Jesse Michels?

  So do we have some sort of like sub Rosa space program that involves like portals to like other like star systems or something?

• 1:19:40Speaker 01

  By, by the time you realize we're not the only intelligent people in the universe and we're not the most advanced because the universe is a lot older than we are. And then you kind of have to adopt a slightly science fiction attitude that, well, kind of everything is possible. Then you kind of finally say, well, what's probable?

• 1:20:05Speaker 01

  You'd say, well, if we had stuff like that, then people would blab about it in their sleep or at, in a bar or something, but then they do.

• 1:20:14Jesse Michels?

  Right. Yeah, I don't know. I mean-

• 1:20:16Speaker 01

  So we don't, we don't know. It's, it's all very, um, it's, there's a, there's a, a part of intelligence work that's called rumin. People ruminate over things, but actually no, it's rumor intelligence.

• 1:20:32Jesse Michels?

  Do you, but so, do you know anything? So that, that you would say no or yes on that sort of program?

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  I would say probably not, but maybe.

• 1:20:44Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:20:44Speaker 01

  Like I said, the only times I've been really wrong in my career is when I've told people, ah, that nobody could ever do that.

• 1:20:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, sure, sure, sure. What, um, you know, a lot about what happened at Roswell in 1947.

• 1:20:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:20:56Jesse Michels?

  Um, so, so what happened there? You know, it's known as the most famous UFO crash perhaps of all time. This like dividing line, the advent of the nuclear age.

• 1:21:06Speaker 01

  It is, it is. It was the, it was the beginning of the nuclear age. It was, World War II had not even been over for two years. Everyone was still on an adrenaline high because of World War II and how it turned out. And they had the, Roswell was only about-

• 1:21:28Speaker 01

  A hundred miles, I think, from the Trinity site where they tested the first nuclear weapon, they turned the desert to glass. And it was a plutonium bomb. So the fallout, in those days with people, thousands of people getting killed every day on Iwo Jima and Okinawa, you know, they don't, they didn't worry about safety stuff that much. So the fallout plume, full of plutonium, that didn't get burned up in the explosion, it just was still there, passed over Roswell. So there had a big strip of uranium, plutonium contaminated soil around Roswell that they conveniently didn't tell anybody about.

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  And so then they had this, the 509th, I think it was the 509th bomber group there, they had all the nuclear weapons on Earth were stored at Roswell.

• 1:22:23Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  All five of them.

• 1:22:25Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  They had five nuclear weapons. There's an entire nuclear weapons arsenal for the entire planet. And suddenly, everybody started seeing all the UFOs. That's where we got the name Flying Saucers. Kenneth Arnold saw them in, I don't remember.

• 1:22:40Jesse Michels?

  Two months before.

• 1:22:41Speaker 01

  Two months before. And they were all over the country. And if you read Philip Carso's The Day After Roswell, the US government went into panic mode because they started seeing a lot of them down in New Mexico where they were testing the V2 rockets, the delivery system for nuclear weapons. And they had all the nuclear weapons on Earth stored there. And so they, he said they concentrated their security operations there. They didn't tell the people at Roswell Army Air Base about it, though. They were out of the loop. It was compartmentalized. So the UFO cover-up, even in those days, was operating as a compartment in the US government.

• 1:23:24Speaker 01

  So I talked to the veterans from Roswell.

• 1:23:28Jesse Michels?

  You've spoken to veterans?

• 1:23:29Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 1:23:30Jesse Michels?

  Are these firsthand witnesses?

• 1:23:31Speaker 01

  These were firsthand witnesses.

• 1:23:32Jesse Michels?

  What did they say?

• 1:23:33Speaker 01

  Well, they, they talked about the wreckage being carried through. They said, um, they found this wreckage nearby. Max Brazel found the wreckage nearby, uh, brought it into town, showed it to the sheriff and the sheriff told him, "Take it to the base." And so they did, he did, and, um, then the people from the base went out and found, yes, there was this whole football field sized area of wreckage out there. And, um, so they said, uh, everybody was seeing UFOs. So the, uh, base commander, who was a very well-liked fellow, a very popular fellow named Colonel Blanchard,

• 1:24:15Speaker 01

  called up the newspaper and said, uh, you know, "Look what we found. We found a crashed flying saucer." Nobody, he had no orders regarding them at all. And so, so they, uh, then they published it in the newspaper. And, um, what happened was a bunch of World War II veterans who were in a motorcycle gang called the Booze Fighters, which is a play on Foo Fighters, took over, uh, Hollister, California for a day and had a drunken party downtown. And, uh, that's kind of stole all the headlines that weekend. Uh, it was like the weekend of 4th of July. And so then this story came out that they'd had a crashed UFO and, uh,

• 1:24:59Speaker 01

  Blanchard, the commander at the base, got this very angry phone call from Fort Worth, Texas, a big airbase there. Uh, I can't remember what the general there was in charge, but he basically chewed his head off over the phone and said, "You're not supposed to talk about that. You know, it's a weather balloon. Don't talk about the, the wreckage. It's nothing, it's nothing." And he said, "We're sending people up there to collect everything." So they said this, and back in those days, the Army Air Corps, it was Army Air Corps, it was not the Air Force yet, it was still part of the Army. My father was in the Army Air Corps in World War II and he flew out and flying out of England. And, um, Uh, they said this red-haired Colonel showed up.

• 1:25:44Speaker 01

  Barking orders, you know, several deuce and a half trucks arrived full of troops. They basically took over Roswell Army Airfield for about a week. They went and gathered up all the wreckage they could find. They had guys walking along side by side across fields, you know, picking up any piece of metal or something. And some guys apparently put it in their pockets, you know? And so this red-haired Colonel kind of took over the base and was known for just screaming at everybody. And, uh, and so then, and they flew all the stuff out and they had, you know, I-beams

• 1:26:27Speaker 01

  with hieroglyphics on them and they had all these plates and stuff. They, they, they told me about this stuff and at this conference, it was called Reminances of Roswell. And it was a bunch of people brought together who were the survivor officers and the daughters of the sheriff. And, um, and it was a great experience to be there and I sat at banquet next to these people and, and we had a great time. And, um, uh, but what happened then was then suddenly everything was gone. And life went back to normal and they said they had, the base commander would have a meeting with his chief officers every Monday morning.

• 1:27:11Speaker 01

  And Blanchard, the next meeting after everybody, the deuce and a half trucks and the screaming Colonel had left, they had this meeting and one of the officers at the meeting says, well, what did you think about what happened the last two weeks? And all Blanchard would do is laugh and said, boy, did we screw up.

• 1:27:33Speaker 01

  And now they, that apparently was a bunch of people were completely out of the loop. I mean, they were guarding the atomic bombs, but that didn't mean they knew everything the government knew. And at the same time, roughly the morning of 4th of July, an object crashed on the plains of San Agustin, about 100 miles away. It had a big hole in it, in the side. And a bunch of people saw it. And then the same red haired Colonel showed up. This was a few days before the Roswell, he showed up at Roswell, but this guy showed up like the morning of 4th of July, screaming orders to everybody. And they gathered up

• 1:28:18Speaker 01

  this flying saucer that had crashed there with a big hole in the side of it. And the dead aliens, and there was apparently one live alien, and they got them all and just hauled them away. And there was a team of archaeologists investigating Indian ruins. And then there were some campers. And this red haired Colonel lined them all up and said that if they told anybody about what they had seen, the government was going to kill them. And their families too. I mean, it was wartime, warlike secrecy. And you must remember, it was less than two years after World War II. It was loose lips sink ships.

• 1:28:59Speaker 01

  Everybody was still operating that way. These people who remember seeing the whole sky light up because of the first nuclear test. And then wondering what had happened. And then the government saying, oh, we had an accident in an ammo dump. That's what caused the big flash that lit up the entire sky.

• 1:29:19Jesse Michels?

  That's helpful context.

• 1:29:20Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. So the context of it was everyone was used to secrecy, used to following orders, and used to trusting the government for everything. And so then, so then, so there were two recoveries, basically following roughly the early morning of 4th of July.

• 1:29:45Speaker 01

  And they were about 100 miles apart. One of them was a saucer with a big hole in the side. And the other one was a field of wreckage. You know, something had exploded in midair. And what I found out was that we had a night fighter during World War II called the Black Widow. Was painted glossy black, just like the spider. When the big UFO surge of sightings happened, they pulled all of those night fighter squadrons from Europe and Japan into the United States. And apparently into the southwest around Roswell.

• 1:30:25Speaker 01

  So it apparently what happened was they had those patrolling over Roswell to protect the nuclear weapons stockpile.

• 1:30:34Jesse Michels?

  Do you think there were bodies found at Roswell?

• 1:30:36Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, yes, I'm quite confident that they recovered bodies. They even apparently recovered, you know, the reports are they recovered at least one live alien. And they were the little short gray guys with the big eyes. And, um, and the vultures and coyotes had apparently eaten some of the bodies too. And, you know, that sounds almost like human beings miscalculating. Apparently because, uh, I wrote a book on this recently called Cosmic Awakening and I have this all documented in there or, you know, as best as you can take the reports and document them.

• 1:31:16Speaker 01

  And they, uh, people make mistakes. Even, even people in outer space make mistakes, just like humans do. They miscalculate and not only that, you're trying to find plutonium. They're there flying over Roswell, trying to figure out how many nuclear weapons we have there, how big they are. And, but there's so much plutonium in the area that they have to fly really close to the ground. To get a good signal. In fact, they're flying two craft close together so that one can get the kind of noise level and the other one will get the signal.

• 1:32:00Speaker 01

  And you could just imagine, and there was apparently a very bad lightning storm that night, so here are these people from outer space flying around, they're trying to get this very sensitive signal to get some good data. And there's lightning storms going on, you know, and it's all electromagnetic interference, which really bothers like micro sensitive electronics, but the P61 Black Widow was vacuum tube technology. They were used to flying through tropics.

• 1:32:29Jesse Michels?

  Well, that's the conventional story in Philip J. Corso's account and others is that it's some sort of high powered radar directed energy.

• 1:32:36Speaker 01

  No, I don't think so. It was, uh, I, they, they were, during World War II, the FOO fighters were commonly spotted and there were all sorts of radar beams flying around. They never reported any crashes then. Um, uh, you know, they, they would have been operating in the earth's environment with powerful radar beams scanning around.

• 1:33:00Jesse Michels?

  So that, is that some sort of myth? Like, that's what Stephen Greer and a bunch of other people sort of repeat all the time is that directed energy weapons is how you take these things out, which I, I feel awkward talking about because I think it's a really bad sort of semi unethical thing if that's the case, but no semi, extremely unethical. But, um, yeah, that's not, you don't think that's real?

• 1:33:23Speaker 01

  It's sad to reflect on the fact that there may have been secret clashes between our military and extraterrestrials and, um, but.

• 1:33:34Jesse Michels?

  Well, ones where.

• 1:33:37Speaker 01

  It's, it's almost like going out in a plastic boat and running into some killer whales and they start ramming your boat. You know, what are you gonna do?

• 1:33:45Jesse Michels?

  Well, often it's like, I think we lure them in with nuclear material and then do that.

• 1:33:52Speaker 01

  There's, uh, yeah, there's, um.

• 1:33:55Jesse Michels?

  Isn't that messed up?

• 1:33:56Speaker 01

  Well, there's, I heard accounts saying that the government wanted as many crashes as possible so they could harvest as much technology. And, you know, if you, if you can't capture one craft intact, you can maybe capture three pieces of different craft and, you know, kind of combine them together and find, you know, figure out the systems. So it was, it was the Cold War. We'd just gotten done with World War II. They were fighting the Korean War. Remember in 1952, they were overflying, uh, UFOs were overflying Washington DC and they were still fighting the Korean War in

• 1:34:38Speaker 01

  Korea at the time. So it was very much a, I grew up during the Cold War and in the shadow of World War II and it, uh, it was, um, you know, I mean, all my uncles, except for my nuclear physicist uncle, had been in combat, you know, had been combat veterans of World War II.

• 1:35:01Jesse Michels?

  Some of the most interesting evidence I've found for Roswell is actually that there was a contract between Los Alamos and Batel Memorial Institute in 1949 and it was around, uh, n- nytinol. And nytinol is basically this like almost memory metal that, you know, uh, remains unperturbed, no matter how much you kind of, you know, put stress against it or, you know, shape-shifted, it always kind of goes back into its original form and it's, it's really cool. And it was like declassified by Batel in the 60s. So you have to ask this question, why was it like classified for a decade plus? And then why does Los Alamos have a contract with Batel in 1949, you know, right after

• 1:35:44Jesse Michels?

  the Roswell crash or maybe Aztec crash of 1948? I don't know. But it lends some credence because Jesse Marcel is the most famous account around Roswell. He was, you know, shown, taking a picture next to a weather balloon, which he, he came out, he was a, he was a, a air force intelligence officer. He came out.

• 1:36:04Speaker 01

  He's got this funny look on his face. I love it.

• 1:36:06Jesse Michels?

  In 1979, he came out and he was like, you know, This was a, I basically was part of this cover up and that was BS. And in fact, I handled this memory metal.

• 1:36:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:16Jesse Michels?

  And that's what he says. It was a shape shifting memory metal. So you have the contract and then you have the fact that he's saying he's handling this metal. I think that's kind of interesting.

• 1:36:23Speaker 01

  Oh, according to Philip Corso, a lot of the stuff recovered from these crashes, especially Roswell, was the seed crystal for a lot of the technology we have now.

• 1:36:33Jesse Michels?

  There's clearly some BS in that book.

• 1:36:35Speaker 01

  Oh, sure.

• 1:36:35Jesse Michels?

  Cause he had a co-author, I'm blanking on his name, but the co-author gave him 24 hours to edit the thing. And so it's like he didn't, you know, it was clearly like somehow, you know, the narrative was, was controlled in some ways, in a way that sprinkled in BS with some, maybe some real elements. So, but.

• 1:36:52Speaker 01

  That's a standard technique, by the way.

• 1:36:53Jesse Michels?

  Oh, it's, that's, that's been the strategy in UFO world. It's why I'm so frustrated like doing this show, cause I, I know there's so much real stuff, but there's so much BS. It's, it's.

• 1:37:05Speaker 01

  It's a very noisy signal, as they say. The signal to noise is low. I mean, they have a lot of noise out there and the government will release pieces of, you know, supposed leaks and they have what I call a destruct package in them, you know? They have a, something that can be, be, they prove.

• 1:37:25Jesse Michels?

  That's right. The government hands you a mixed bag and then you have to sort of like, you know, chew through it and it's passage material and it's recruiting and it's, it's all, it's all sorts of, it's very effective strategy, the flood, flood the zone strategy.

• 1:37:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. It's flood the zone.

• 1:37:39Jesse Michels?

  Um, so, uh, yeah, and in the eighties and all, really the seventies.

• 1:37:43Speaker 01

  It's also called blowing smoke, you know?

• 1:37:44Jesse Michels?

  I think, I think UFOs, cause Jalen Heineck was, you know, the, he was the blue book guy.

• 1:37:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:37:52Jesse Michels?

  The astronomer and he claimed to flip, you know, and you had, you know, James McDonald, who's this Arizona state, you know, physicist.

• 1:38:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:38:00Jesse Michels?

  Who was earnestly looking into UFO thing and had his own UFO sighting at Savannah River Site. His plutonium, you know, reactor in South Carolina. And he, he goes to, and he's a serious physicist. He goes to Jalen Heineck and he says, you've been, you know, taking part in this cover up. This is ridiculous. Like what you saw in Michigan. And swamp gas like you know this is BS and Jalen Heine gets all sad and he's And then Jalen Heineck the the nominal story is that Jalen Heineck flips to being like reformed and pro UFO

• 1:38:31Speaker 01

  He had a come to Jesus moment

• 1:38:32Jesse Michels?

  I I think that's fake. I don't think that's a real story. Actually, this is really crazy, but um Rod Serlin, who happens to be my dad's godfather and he made UFOs past, present and future. So I think Edwards Air Force Base reaches out to him and like promises him like footage of a UFO. And he like gets taken through all these like hoops. He's jumping through these hoops and he like makes this movie. And Jacques Vallée is Jalen Heineck's assistant, you know, and Jalen Heineck show up in the movie. And they're pushing really hard this extraterrestrial hypothesis. That's what it feels like. Which Jacques Vallée then sort of moves out out of and he he moves more into this kind of interdimensional control system hypothesis.

• 1:39:16Speaker 01

  Angels.

• 1:39:17Jesse Michels?

  Angels, demons, that sort of thing, which I think is probably directionally more correct or something, but at least as I don't know, who knows? We're seeing a medley of phenomena, but um you know, they're sort of pushing that. And then the there is like a little bit of video from uh I think Edwards or one of the other air force bases and it just is super unsatisfying and there's a pretty good debunk of it online where it's probably just an F4 fighter jet.

• 1:39:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:43Jesse Michels?

  And like I I just I believe it probably is just an F4 fighter jet. So like I basically think that movie was like lured in like to by like

• 1:39:53Speaker 01

  And they wanted Serlin to be involved.

• 1:39:55Jesse Michels?

  They want Serlin to be involved. And then Jalen Heineck also, I just learned this. He, I think, provided the laptop to Paul Benowitz, where Paul Benowitz was receiving alien signals for he's being Psyop by Rick Doty, who's in Air Force Office of Special Investigations.

• 1:40:09Speaker 01

  They put LSD in his toothpaste or something.

• 1:40:12Jesse Michels?

  Something, yeah. And he gets visited by John.

• 1:40:14Speaker 01

  I used to drive into Sandia Lab every morning, right past Paul Benowitz's office. He had a company called Thunder Corporation. It was remote sensing. That was his specialty, ultraviolet, infrared, magnetic, everything.

• 1:40:31Speaker 01

  And every morning I'd see it's under corporation. That looks like an interesting place. And then I found out later it was the scene of this terrible drama of him citing things over. There's a mountain out in the desert at Kirtland Air Force Base called Monzano Mountain. And they store nuclear weapons there. He'd cited UFOs flying over there a lot. And had all sorts of recordings. And the government came to him and said, Paul, don't do this anymore. Quit doing that and don't talk about it. And, and he told them where to stuff it.

• 1:41:09Speaker 01

  And he, then they, I was sitting there at a MUFON conference where Stan Moore, who had been the original leaker of the MJ12, got up and confessed to being a government agent whose job was to monitor.

• 1:41:26Jesse Michels?

  Bill Moore.

• 1:41:27Speaker 01

  It was Bill Moore. Yeah, Bill Moore was the, his job was to monitor the effectiveness of the PSYOP operation on Benowitz to drive him insane. So that no one would pay any attention to him.

• 1:41:41Jesse Michels?

  And Benowitz ended up committing suicide.

• 1:41:44Speaker 01

  I wasn't aware. I heard he died in a mental institution.

• 1:41:46Jesse Michels?

  Okay, sorry, sorry.

• 1:41:48Speaker 01

  They involuntarily committed him and that's what happens. Generally, the government will at least, you know, in a lot of countries, they will just take you out and kill you. But in this country, they will actually approach you and say, quit talking about this.

• 1:42:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:04Speaker 01

  Don't, don't, you know, don't do this anymore. And if you don't listen to them, then they, they raise the ante and they'll put LSD in your toothpaste or give you cancer or something. And, you know, and that's, that's in other words, that's part of what the government is covering up. Is a lot of its activities in preserving this secret.

• 1:42:25Jesse Michels?

  Don't you find that interesting that there's a jail on Heineken Paul Benowitz connection? I mean, that's pretty.

• 1:42:30Speaker 01

  I find it's not. I find it sad.

• 1:42:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:34Speaker 01

  Because Heineck, then being a smart guy, would have to realize what they were doing to to Benowitz. And, um, and then Heineck was in Close Encounters of the Third Kind.

• 1:42:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:47Speaker 01

  And, um, which, if you, in my book Cosmic Awake, I discuss was apparently the government's celebration of, you know, through Hollywood of an accommodation with the gray aliens. That they were going to have not only détente in the Cold War, they were going to have détente in outer space. But that didn't work out very well. And there was this reported military clash at Dulce, reported. But reports, I heard several reports of it in D C. And, um, Leonard Stringfield talked to me about it. And he said he'd heard three different versions. The only different version,

• 1:43:29Speaker 01

  the only difference between the versions was the number of people who got killed, both human and alien. And he said that, um, so he believed that it really happened because he talked to military veterans.

• 1:43:42Jesse Michels?

  Do you think aliens are good or bad or?

• 1:43:44Speaker 01

  Oh, they're like us. There's some.

• 1:43:46Jesse Michels?

  A mix.

• 1:43:47Speaker 01

  They're a mix. I mean, you pick a, pick a human.

• 1:43:50Jesse Michels?

  Do you think they're extraterrestrial or interdimensional or?

• 1:43:53Speaker 01

  Well, I, I think most of them are just flesh and blood like we are. They make mistakes like we do. They crash in the desert. The coyotes and vultures eat their bodies. That doesn't sound like an interdimensional being to me. But at the same time, human beings are partly interdimensional. We have a consciousness that is not. They're parts of the human being that can't really be isolated and analyzed scientifically right now. And that's probably a good thing. But, uh, then I, you know, I'm just, uh, I'm just an Episcopalian. It's funny. I was a Pentecostal fundamentalist when I was younger because of that I believe in supernatural.

• 1:44:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. So there are interdimensional beings, I believe. And what's really fascinating to me is that the major religions on Earth are cosmic religions, where the supreme being is a cosmic god. He's not just a god of Earth. He's not just a god of human beings. He's a god of everything. And that makes our religious heritages among the major religions, and I'm most familiar with Judeo-Christianity because I am part of that religion, a Christian.

• 1:45:17Speaker 01

  Somebody can tell, come from outer space and land in my backyard and say, "Well, I created you. I own you. I own this planet." And I say, "Well, no, God owns me. I don't know who you are.

• 1:45:32Speaker 01

  God owns you too, even if you don't realize it." I said, "You know, look, you may think I'm a speck of dust. You're a speck of dust to God too. We're all equal in sight of God."

• 1:45:43Jesse Michels?

  What is God to you? How would you define God?

• 1:45:46Speaker 01

  Well, he's the supreme being. He's the almighty.

• 1:45:50Jesse Michels?

  How do you follow God?

• 1:45:52Speaker 01

  Oh, well, I just go to church.

• 1:45:56Speaker 01

  My Christianity is fairly boring. I just go to church and I worship. And it's a very personal thing for me. And I wouldn't even be doing this unless I felt God wanted me to do it. It's somehow parts of it are kind of frightening. But when I realize God is in charge, it doesn't make me afraid anymore.

• 1:46:22Jesse Michels?

  That's beautiful. Well, Dr. Brandenburg, I really appreciate your time, man. This has been

• 1:46:26Speaker 01

  Been a pleasure and an honor.

• 1:46:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, no, likewise.

• 1:46:28Speaker 01

  Thank you for the wonderful questions.

• 1:46:30Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah. I think people will really enjoy this.

• 1:46:33Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And also, I wrote, I did, I will mention,

• 1:46:36Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:46:36Speaker 01

  I wrote a science fiction novel about everything I heard about in Washington, DC, around the water cooler and the coffee machine. I have people who've approached me from Hollywood now. They're gonna try and make it a new movie.

• 1:46:49Jesse Michels?

  Well, thank you, Dr. Brandon.

• 1:46:50Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 1:46:52Jesse Michels?

  This is a blast, man.

• 1:46:53Speaker 01

  Oh, it's great, great. I'm so glad you liked it.

• 1:47:33Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.